Propaganda, but the good kind
May 23, 2018 7:00 AM   Subscribe

God Bless ContraPoints, one of the few brave youtubers successfully taking on the alt-right - or, according to Vice, destroying it.

Her videos are long, weird, full of elaborate costumes, ironic asides, and composited shots of her talking to herself playing different characters as she represents several different viewpoints of political and social discussions. She does what few people with her politics do: honestly and persuasively engage skeptics or opponents to explain leftist positions that are often caricatured, ridiculed, or deliberately misunderstood.

She dropped out of academia, takes on the alt-right, contemporary fascists, Jordan Peterson, capitalism, explains racism to skeptics better than most white people can, and also offers an honest account of her transition along the way.

Bonus content: full interview transcript with Natalie Wynn Parrott, aka ContraPoints.

[Previously]
posted by entropone (52 comments total) 135 users marked this as a favorite
 
I lost like an hour on her vis yesterday, after someone on the Jordan Peterson thread linked to her rebuttal.

She's awesome, and deserves a wider audience.
posted by uberchet at 7:23 AM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]


In my mind she sits alongside John Oliver and Sam Bee in that most essential genre of comedy: patient dives into the details of awful subjects made palatable with humor. But she brings a sense of empathy to the table that make her even more effective.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:42 AM on May 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


I lost like an hour on her vis yesterday

I guess you're welcome and I'm sorry.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 7:43 AM on May 23, 2018 [5 favorites]


I've always thought that the Left, and the Democrats really needed to grow a pair of balls and start pushing back (embrace what makes us liberals, vote out DINOs, call out bullshit when we see it, and lather, rinse repeat.)
ContraPoints uses YouTube, the alt-right weapon of choice, in a very whip smart, calm and funny way.
It's a great start.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 7:43 AM on May 23, 2018 [11 favorites]


This is just what I needed today, thanks!
posted by Dhertiiboi at 7:44 AM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


That Jordan Peterson thread left me in a pretty deep funk and anxiety spiral. I really needed something like this and can't wait to spend more time with these videos!
posted by treepour at 7:47 AM on May 23, 2018 [3 favorites]


She's one of the few vloggers I'll sit through.
posted by AFABulous at 7:53 AM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


I watched her Jordan Peterson video yesterday, and I was both informed and incredibly entertained. I really need to dive deeper into her videos now, because she's clearly good at this stuff.
posted by SansPoint at 7:54 AM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


This is beautiful, entropone. Thank you so much for this.

I'd not heard of ContraPoints until now and I'm looking forward to seeing more of what she has to say (aka getting my head back into the critique of capital game).
posted by mistersquid at 7:57 AM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


i dislike the "contrapoints vs. the incompetent left" framing. it needlessly pits us against one other and downplays the amount of effort, sacrifice, and luck required to run a successful youtube channel.

but her channel's great, i agree! i also found out about her through mefi
posted by yaymukund at 8:06 AM on May 23, 2018 [27 favorites]


I'm glad I waited lazily for an FPP to turn up after encountering ContraPoints through this comment by cichlid ceilidh, rather than doing one myself, as I doubt I'd have done as good a job.

These are exceptionally cogently argued and very entertaining videos.
posted by howfar at 8:49 AM on May 23, 2018


Contrapoints is great! I discovered her channel through Shaun and HHBomber guy, who do similarly nuanced discussions.
posted by backlikeclap at 8:55 AM on May 23, 2018


(Ugh, could an admin please correct "lost an hour on her vis" to "lost an hour on her vids" in my 9:23AM comment, supra?)
posted by uberchet at 8:55 AM on May 23, 2018 [1 favorite]


I don't remember how I first discovered her, but I immediately subscribed and have been a fan ever since. I never knew her name--could it be any more British?!

What I love about her (and Doug Lain's) YouTube channels is the dadaist/absurdist flair they bring to their brainiac content. It's postmodern in a genuine, positive sense. It's the white magic version of pomo. Solve e coagula. The antithesis of the Sith Lord version practiced by alt-right agents of chaos (all while, of course, they attack a cartoonish version of postmodernism--because big liars gonna lie big).
posted by mondo dentro at 9:19 AM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


Going to try her on my old school friend who seems to have gone so far down the Jordan Peterson rabbit hole that he's stopped making sense at all. According to him, literally Hitler was postmodern (who knew? certainly not Hitler!)
posted by BungaDunga at 9:23 AM on May 23, 2018 [4 favorites]




Backstory, please?
posted by mondo dentro at 9:31 AM on May 23, 2018


Is there any reason to believe that these videos, while well-made, aren't just more preaching to the choir on the left? I really can't see some MAGA citizen of Kekistan ranting about SJW cucks watching these and having a sobering moment of self-reflection. They didn't exactly get to their current position by virtue of pure reason and facts.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:41 AM on May 23, 2018 [2 favorites]


Is there any reason to believe that these videos, while well-made, aren't just more preaching to the choir on the left?
This maybe, https://twitter.com/ContraPoints/status/993241229293969408

Also, at the veeeerrrry end of the Peterson video, after the supporter list.
posted by Auz at 9:52 AM on May 23, 2018 [8 favorites]


Sangermaine, I’m not sure. The Jordan Peterson video, at least, has a number of comments from people saying, paraphrased, “I’m sorta into Peterson’s ideas but you bring up some good points!” For what that’s worth.

But at the same time, even if she isn’t able to convince anyone who’s not already on board, her videos are IMO some of the best distillations of leftist politics. There’s value in that beyond the immediate “maybe an asshat will watch it and turn nice”
posted by yaymukund at 10:02 AM on May 23, 2018 [20 favorites]


Is there any reason to believe that these videos, while well-made, aren't just more preaching to the choir on the left?

Well, presenting an argument in favor of why this isn't the right kind of argument seems... oxymoronic. So I won't go there.

Besides, what's cool about them is that they aren't about just presenting "reason and facts". They do that, to be sure, but when I referred to their dadaist flair I was referring to the way they construct a narrative, or even more basically, a vibe. The argumentation is embedded in a style. That's what's important.

It's not about presenting a cogent argument, or about not presenting one. It's not about no-platforming, or not no-platforming. It's about embedding that argument, that activism, in a vibe, a "lifestyle brand", a narrative that is appealing, even if--or especially if--the appeal is to the lizard brain. ContraPoints does that in one, highly idiosyncratic way. Let a thousand flowers bloom.
posted by mondo dentro at 10:17 AM on May 23, 2018 [7 favorites]


Is there any reason to believe that these videos, while well-made, aren't just more preaching to the choir on the left?

I learned what post-modernism actually means. That was helpful.

Also, apparently I'm a tiny bit post-modernist (or at least as post-modernist as anyone who is an empiricist can be, since I think all the great narratives of modernism don't work because reality is crazy chaotic, especially people and society).
posted by jb at 10:34 AM on May 23, 2018 [4 favorites]


> I really can't see some MAGA citizen of Kekistan ranting about SJW cucks watching these and having a sobering moment of self-reflection.

I hate stuff like this, because it implies that if a particular method or speaker can't reach literally everyone, then there is no point in trying at all. There is no One True Takedown for people like Peterson (or...anyone, really); some kinds of delivery will be more effective than others depending on who's listening. It's a feature, not a bug.
posted by rtha at 10:56 AM on May 23, 2018 [34 favorites]


From what I've been told, political videos on YouTube trend conservative by a huge margin. Anyone pushing back on that trend, like ContraPoints apparently is, puts a lot more liberal videos into the pool that YouTube randomly recommends to impressionable youths, thereby slightly lowering the chances of their radicalization.
posted by one for the books at 11:06 AM on May 23, 2018 [11 favorites]


at least as post-modernist as anyone who is an empiricist can be, since I think all the great narratives of modernism don't work because reality is crazy chaotic, especially people and society

It may be that you're just a typical postmodernist, in the sense of understanding the complications thesee thinkers wee trying to point out. The word has been twisted beyond recognition. Because Peterson's understanding of postmodernism is literally a figment of his imagination (well, not his but Stephen Hicks's, who he mechanically parrots) that doesn't actually exist, for anyone who cares, here's Philosophies This! podcast introducing the basics. And here's a video about that arch-vile of postmodernism, Derrida. I suspect that if most of you good mefites take a look at it, you'll realize that he was like the least objectionable lefty and would have been a pretty good mefite (minus the language).
posted by Pyrogenesis at 11:12 AM on May 23, 2018 [4 favorites]


From what I've been told, political videos on YouTube trend conservative by a huge margin. Anyone pushing back on that trend, like ContraPoints apparently is, puts a lot more liberal videos into the pool that YouTube randomly recommends to impressionable youths, thereby slightly lowering the chances of their radicalization.

I think she acknowledges that there are a lot of people out there who haven't really made up their mind about this stuff, and who are either really turned off by the internet yelling or easily persuaded by extremely shitty fascist propaganda. And she tries to reach these people. Hell, I think she points out that she WAS one of those people, so I think she understands where they're coming from.

I mean, since it's pretty widely acknowledged that SOME PEOPLE (cough fascists) have figured out how to use the internet to weaponize information and recruit people (gamergate -> alt-right, right?), then we're allowing that undecided people are looking for answers to questions that they have about society and politics on the internet. ContraPoints sidesteps a common failing - of giving people shit for asking those questions in the first place - and proceeds with the answers. Good answers.
posted by entropone at 11:41 AM on May 23, 2018 [11 favorites]


Is there any reason to believe that these videos, while well-made, aren't just more preaching to the choir on the left?

I think the only truthful answer to this is "Who the hell knows?" I mean, I think she's making them not just because they appear to be profitable, but because she genuinely believes in the power of persuasion (and perhaps to help articulate her own beliefs more clearly, too). At any rate, they're things worth doing for their own sake, if nothing else. It's queer art. The best ones are the queer Schoolhouse Rock videos I've always wanted.

My only misgivings, having binged on her videos a couple of nights ago, is that in a couple of places she sort of suggests that YouTube celebrity is a contributing source of stress for her and I really hope she takes care and doesn't burn herself out.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:51 AM on May 23, 2018 [10 favorites]


SOME PEOPLE (cough fascists) have figured out how to use the internet to weaponize information and recruit people (gamergate -> alt-right, right?)

I don't know about fascists, but gamergate didn't turn into anything new, they're still the same. What did happen on youtube is rather that the late-2000s "rational skeptics" who used to shout atheism at religious people have now turned into alt-right or their apologists, almost to a man. Dr. Layman has a hopeful video about that.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 12:20 PM on May 23, 2018 [4 favorites]


Pyrogenesis: Gamergate wasn't anything new, either, it was just a pre-existing force that gained visibility through higher-profile targeting. Before Gamergate, there was Operation Lollipop, where Channers were infiltrating black and feminist Twitter communities, going back to 2013.
posted by SansPoint at 12:28 PM on May 23, 2018 [5 favorites]


(From Singal’s Medium interview)
I feel like the quick asides and quick spooky cuts are also very much a YouTube thing, right?
I actually got a bit of a Ryan Trecartin vibe from some of the videos, though maybe it’s just that Trecartin’s DNA has already been thoroughly absorbed by the YouTube generation.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:42 PM on May 23, 2018


I exposed my feeble laptop to the caustic fire of Youtube with javascript fully turned on so that I could get these lyrics from the subtitles and let me tell you that's not something I do for just any video (from the Jordan Peterson link in the OP)
       credits music
“God Save the Lobster Queen”
            by
      [♪ Zoë Blade ♪]


♪ God save our lobster queen
♪ Long live the lobster queen
♪ God save the queen
♪ Send our queen crustaceous
♪ From the late Cretaceous
♪ Long to reign over us
♪ God save the queen!
posted by XMLicious at 2:19 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]


just more preaching to the choir on the left?

She's out there studying the theology of the heretics and reporting back to the choir. Reading Jordan Peterson so we don't have to. She's doing the one of the jobs of academia better than they typically do it.
posted by sfenders at 2:44 PM on May 23, 2018 [28 favorites]


Is there any reason to believe that these videos, while well-made, aren't just more preaching to the choir on the left?

It's not always about converting the guy on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Speaking to people who lean toward or are curious about your side is worth something, as it giving people who are already on your side a template for rhetoric to promote and defend their positions.
posted by atoxyl at 3:16 PM on May 23, 2018 [14 favorites]


plus just having somebody who isn't on the far right taking up space on the platform is important - the whole thing that's scary about the right wing on YouTube is that it's so ubiquitous that you can't really avoid coming in contact with it, and at the same time will see very few... counterpoints
posted by atoxyl at 3:19 PM on May 23, 2018 [17 favorites]


> I exposed my feeble laptop to the caustic fire of Youtube with javascript fully turned on so that I could get these lyrics from the subtitles

youtube-dl --skip-download --write-sub https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LqZdkkBDas
posted by Bangaioh at 3:43 PM on May 23, 2018 [6 favorites]


She is doing the Lord's work. Even if that Lord is, apparently, Slaanesh.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:13 PM on May 23, 2018 [4 favorites]


This whole thing with the lobsters? I just keep imagining, like, Charlie Stross writing a Land’s End catalogue. “Oh look, you can buy pants with lobsters on them! And they’re all superhumanly intelligent lobsters!”
posted by octobersurprise at 5:18 PM on May 23, 2018 [4 favorites]




Thou shalt have only one lobster, and verily, it shall be THE ROCK LOBSTER.

Book B, verse 52.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 4:37 AM on May 24, 2018 [2 favorites]


Why call him Jordan Peterson when you could call him Doc Lobster?
posted by MartinWisse at 5:32 AM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


Re: is this just preaching to the choir on the left?

Innuendo Studios (can't remember the guys actual name) has a great series of videos on the rhetorical strategies of the alt right. Worth a watch if you like ContraPoints. He argues that in a lot of cases alt right arguments are actually intended for the audience rather than the person being addressed. So, conversely, it could be argued ContraPoints' videos do good even if they aren't going to convert any die hard right wingers.

https://www.youtube.com/user/mrskimps
posted by Erberus at 5:29 PM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]


It's the same concept as marches - they're for the marchers, to create a feeling of energy and solidarity. No pro-choice march has ever won over an anti-choice activist, but that's not the point. The other thing is that leftists like ContraPoints manage to coherently articulate my gut feelings about some issues, which validates and reinforces the feelings as well as increases my ability to pass them along to others.
posted by AFABulous at 8:30 PM on May 24, 2018 [4 favorites]


sfenders: She's out there studying the theology of the heretics and reporting back to the choir. Reading Jordan Peterson so we don't have to. She's doing the one of the jobs of academia better than they typically do it.

QFT
posted by LMGM at 2:55 AM on May 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


aaaand there goes my Friday-before-holiday-weekend "productivity".
posted by mikelieman at 3:27 AM on May 25, 2018 [1 favorite]


Well I WAS going to go to brunch but *binging intensifies*
posted by en forme de poire at 11:29 AM on May 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


This is not a substantive comment but I fucking love the queer aesthetic of these btw. The neon, the wallpaper, the spiky synth music, ugh, so good!
posted by en forme de poire at 11:17 PM on May 26, 2018 [1 favorite]


Her Majesty, our glorious Lobster Queen, hath delivered a new video .
posted by octobersurprise at 1:42 PM on June 3, 2018 [2 favorites]


"Why is no-one talking about the mouth feel?"
posted by RobotHero at 3:43 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]


That's already the line of the year. I loved that video—there is so much good stuff in it— but, Christ, it was like a stake through the heart.

She's a really good actor. Her talent at sketching a character with just a few lines and gestures is superb.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:51 AM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]




Having watched more videos, I don't think that she is preaching to the left. She's really engaged in conversation - explaining leftist ideas to moderates and centrist - but also giving (minor, softened by humour) some criticisms to the left. Her video on cultural appropriation, for example, pulls the issue apart to separate racist stereotyping from cultural borrowing without profit - and argues that cultural borrowing that doesn't profit should happen.
posted by jb at 5:05 AM on June 13, 2018 [3 favorites]


I don't think that she is preaching to the left. She's really engaged in conversation ...

Yeah, having watched most of her videos and a couple of her hour(s) long "hangouts," it seems harder to describe in brief exactly what it is she's doing. Making films, for one, but increasingly films evoking characters who are not her (but not not her necessarily) and driven by nuanced stories, not simply polemical commentaries. But she's also engaged in talking around those stories, interrogating her own changes of mind, and producing work that seems part performance art, part memoir, part media criticism/anthropology—"I need to confront people I disagree with because, if nothing else, I need them to see that I'm a person," she says at one point—part rumination on the rhetorical dynamics of making YouTube videos, part play.

What to make of a nearly three hour video of her cooking a meal with another YouTuber that fascinatingly and rather endearingly looks like a somewhat awkward first date? At moments she seems like a YouTube Zackary Drucker or Mirha-Soleil Ross.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:50 PM on June 13, 2018 [1 favorite]


« Older Complexity: the paradox of order and disorder   |   The Black Knight Rises Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments