#RecastBatwoman
August 14, 2018 1:54 PM Subscribe
There was a lot of excitement among LGBTQ people when Batwoman--in the modern incarnation, a Jewish lesbian who takes up crimefighting after she's kicked out of West Point during the Don't Ask, Don't Tell era--was announced to appear in the CW's "Arrowverse", which features a number of DC Comics characters. There was even more excitement when Ruby Rose (Orange is the New Black,John Wick: Chapter 2, The Meg) was cast. And then came the backlash.
Numerous tweets using the #RecastBatwoman tag said, variously, that Rose wasn't a good enough actress, had outed someone without their permission, and, although a lesbian, wasn't specifically a Jewish lesbian. Many in Twitter pointed to Ashley Platz, an actress and yoga instructor, as an alternative casting choice, even though Platz herself tweeted in support of Rose (as did Stephen Amell and Batwoman co-creator Greg Rucka). Rose herself has left Twitter.
Numerous tweets using the #RecastBatwoman tag said, variously, that Rose wasn't a good enough actress, had outed someone without their permission, and, although a lesbian, wasn't specifically a Jewish lesbian. Many in Twitter pointed to Ashley Platz, an actress and yoga instructor, as an alternative casting choice, even though Platz herself tweeted in support of Rose (as did Stephen Amell and Batwoman co-creator Greg Rucka). Rose herself has left Twitter.
This post was deleted for the following reason: There have been an awful lot of these "people are angry on the internet" posts and they seem to be self-perpetuating. Let's try to move away from the meta-discussion and instead talk about new media on its own merits, eh? -- restless_nomad
Ruby Rose: I just wish women and the LGBT community supported each other more, My wish was we were all a little kinder and more supportive of each other...
My feels too.
posted by nikaspark at 2:15 PM on August 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
My feels too.
posted by nikaspark at 2:15 PM on August 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
Huh, most of the fan tears I've seen is from manbaby fake geek guys who thought that they were casting a gender-flipped "SJW" Batman despite a lesbian Batwoman being canon for years.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:19 PM on August 14, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 2:19 PM on August 14, 2018 [15 favorites]
Also, when was the last time a billionaire with a secret identity as a bat-dressed crime-fighting crusader was cast as Batman, huh?
posted by humuhumu at 2:22 PM on August 14, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by humuhumu at 2:22 PM on August 14, 2018 [7 favorites]
Ruby Rose is wrong for the role for a number of reasons, none of which are worth going into here, but of course the vicious and tone deaf nature of the backlash means it is completely impossible to support any call to recast the role.
Thanks, seemingly endless sea of ravenous jackals who derive validation only from the misery of others!
posted by seraphine at 2:29 PM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
Thanks, seemingly endless sea of ravenous jackals who derive validation only from the misery of others!
posted by seraphine at 2:29 PM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
Maybe this is the exceedingly rare instance that actually is political correctness run amok?
Taken at face value it certainly feels like the politics of representation run amok. I identify as Jewish (though in a sort of complicated way) and it honestly kinda bugs me to see people using that minority status to assert an underdog status in a context where it seems spurious. If someone feel like I'm wrong about this by all means unpack that, though.
The reason I say "at face value," though, is that this kinda seems to me like a "fandom run amok" thing (of which I don't fully understand the specifics) that is being couched in political terms? Like more than anything it's about people getting themselves hyped up about an imagined idea of the character and the movie that wasn't actually going to happen.
posted by atoxyl at 2:31 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Taken at face value it certainly feels like the politics of representation run amok. I identify as Jewish (though in a sort of complicated way) and it honestly kinda bugs me to see people using that minority status to assert an underdog status in a context where it seems spurious. If someone feel like I'm wrong about this by all means unpack that, though.
The reason I say "at face value," though, is that this kinda seems to me like a "fandom run amok" thing (of which I don't fully understand the specifics) that is being couched in political terms? Like more than anything it's about people getting themselves hyped up about an imagined idea of the character and the movie that wasn't actually going to happen.
posted by atoxyl at 2:31 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
And I think that on some primal and non-intellectual level, we see people on our television screens and Twitter and Facebook and instead see NPCs and boss characters without connecting them with the same humanity that we know is inside us.
Plenty of people who are dicks online have never played a videogame in their life. I think it's pretty simple: people will often tend to act like dicks when the parts of their brains that tell them not to act like dicks are not particularly stimulated. The safer we feel the more we lash out. It's why most people are habitually much ruder to their family than to strangers. Unfortunately, we have not yet developed the social structures to cope with the loosening of these particular limiters on being a dick in public. I'm hopeful we'll get there, but it's a rough fucking ride.
posted by howfar at 2:34 PM on August 14, 2018
Plenty of people who are dicks online have never played a videogame in their life. I think it's pretty simple: people will often tend to act like dicks when the parts of their brains that tell them not to act like dicks are not particularly stimulated. The safer we feel the more we lash out. It's why most people are habitually much ruder to their family than to strangers. Unfortunately, we have not yet developed the social structures to cope with the loosening of these particular limiters on being a dick in public. I'm hopeful we'll get there, but it's a rough fucking ride.
posted by howfar at 2:34 PM on August 14, 2018
It is complicated. Kate is essentially a non-observant assimilated Jew, something not traditionally hurting for representation in American television, but Jewish women of any description are typically afforded rather few boxes to fit into. I am unsure how much I care about whether or not she is portrayed by a Jew.
posted by seraphine at 2:36 PM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by seraphine at 2:36 PM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
Maybe this is the exceedingly rare instance that actually is political correctness run amok?
Well, certainly it’s some bullshit. I suspect a certain lack of good faith though.
posted by Artw at 2:41 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Well, certainly it’s some bullshit. I suspect a certain lack of good faith though.
posted by Artw at 2:41 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Can we just switcheroo and cast her as the new James Bond and Idris Elba as Catwoman?
posted by poe at 2:42 PM on August 14, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by poe at 2:42 PM on August 14, 2018 [12 favorites]
What's really messed up is that Scarlett Johansson is going to play Ruby Rose as Batwoman.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 2:55 PM on August 14, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 2:55 PM on August 14, 2018 [13 favorites]
This isn't political correctness run amok -- this is fan entitlement at the expense of creator agency. You can't say Ruby Rose is wrong for the role of Batwoman because you do not know who this character is because you are not writing the show. You probably know who the Batwoman in the comics is, but I have some news for you: comic books are not television shows, and while these shows are certainly drawing many aspects of the comic books into the shows, they are not exclusively a retelling of only those stories.
Anyway, fandom is toxic and I am done with it all.
posted by incessant at 3:00 PM on August 14, 2018 [14 favorites]
Anyway, fandom is toxic and I am done with it all.
posted by incessant at 3:00 PM on August 14, 2018 [14 favorites]
And I think that on some primal and non-intellectual level, we see people on our television screens and Twitter and Facebook and instead see NPCs and boss characters without connecting them with the same humanity that we know is inside us.
There was a study years back that found that people who watched soap operas estimated that they had more friends. So I suggest it's the exact opposite - the monkey brain thinks everything is real, even the little people in the box. This combined with Dunbar's Number is why advertising makes us miserable.
posted by Leon at 3:03 PM on August 14, 2018
There was a study years back that found that people who watched soap operas estimated that they had more friends. So I suggest it's the exact opposite - the monkey brain thinks everything is real, even the little people in the box. This combined with Dunbar's Number is why advertising makes us miserable.
posted by Leon at 3:03 PM on August 14, 2018
The reason I say "at face value," though, is that this kinda seems to me like a "fandom run amok" thing (of which I don't fully understand the specifics) that is being couched in political terms?
All fandom is political now. The reverse is also true.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:05 PM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
All fandom is political now. The reverse is also true.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:05 PM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
I wonder if there's some TERF/anti-nb stuff going on with this, but anyway....
I kinda wonder if the tumblr-killer is going to be creatives sick of becoming a punching bag from an extremely vocal and self-reinforcing minority of cranks, deciding that they're just not going to use it as a promotional tool.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:21 PM on August 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
I kinda wonder if the tumblr-killer is going to be creatives sick of becoming a punching bag from an extremely vocal and self-reinforcing minority of cranks, deciding that they're just not going to use it as a promotional tool.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:21 PM on August 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yet another example of why I don’t participate in fandom or “the community.” I love Star Wars, for instance, but despise Star Wars fanboys. Same with Star Trek, Superman, Batman, et. al.
Let’s face it. The studios are desperate to get 14-year old boys to fork over $15 three or four times to see Superhero SciFi Extravaganza Part 6 (and buy all the toys). That way, they can justify the $150 million they spent getting the thing made. So they kow-tow and kiss the fanboys’ asses. And they dismiss rampant misogjny, crappy behavior, and harassment as “just a few bad apples.” Anything to keep the teenage butts in the seats.
It’s disgusting and I want no part of it.
posted by zooropa at 3:35 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Let’s face it. The studios are desperate to get 14-year old boys to fork over $15 three or four times to see Superhero SciFi Extravaganza Part 6 (and buy all the toys). That way, they can justify the $150 million they spent getting the thing made. So they kow-tow and kiss the fanboys’ asses. And they dismiss rampant misogjny, crappy behavior, and harassment as “just a few bad apples.” Anything to keep the teenage butts in the seats.
It’s disgusting and I want no part of it.
posted by zooropa at 3:35 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Has DeviantArt ever had bitter fandom wars before? The site seems tame on controversy compared to Tumblr.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:37 PM on August 14, 2018
posted by Apocryphon at 3:37 PM on August 14, 2018
Ruby Rose is wrong for the role for a number of reasons
Do you own the movie studio?
Then the movie will fail. Everyone who actually worked on the film will still get paid. The studio will take a loss. The world will move on.
posted by GuyZero at 3:51 PM on August 14, 2018
Do you own the movie studio?
Then the movie will fail. Everyone who actually worked on the film will still get paid. The studio will take a loss. The world will move on.
posted by GuyZero at 3:51 PM on August 14, 2018
they're not making a movie, and from looking at the hashtag, it doesn't look like white men are the people pushing this particular troubling internet moment
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:55 PM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:55 PM on August 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
At least right now, the hashtag seems to be saying RR outed someone? They’re not citing details, but that seems to be the biggest complaint.
posted by corb at 4:03 PM on August 14, 2018
posted by corb at 4:03 PM on August 14, 2018
Alternatively, we could burn down all social media and salt the e-ground it sprung from.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:08 PM on August 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:08 PM on August 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
now you're talkin'
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:09 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:09 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Attempting to untangle that, she appears to have tweeted and then deleted something about a brief relationship she had with Demi Lovato, who is sort of ambiguously out these days but might have been less so back then?
That may be a something, but TBH to me it smells more like trolls trying to make a thing a something. The lack of detail may be telling.
posted by Artw at 4:18 PM on August 14, 2018
That may be a something, but TBH to me it smells more like trolls trying to make a thing a something. The lack of detail may be telling.
posted by Artw at 4:18 PM on August 14, 2018
they're not making a movie
whoops, my bad. I am not much of a CW watcher.
it doesn't look like white men are the people pushing this particular troubling internet moment
eh. people may not like RR which is their prerogative. they never want her to work again, fine. That she's somehow "wrong for the role for a number of reasons" - no. Armchair quarterbacking a TV producer is possibly the most tedious form of media criticism out there.
posted by GuyZero at 4:20 PM on August 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
whoops, my bad. I am not much of a CW watcher.
it doesn't look like white men are the people pushing this particular troubling internet moment
eh. people may not like RR which is their prerogative. they never want her to work again, fine. That she's somehow "wrong for the role for a number of reasons" - no. Armchair quarterbacking a TV producer is possibly the most tedious form of media criticism out there.
posted by GuyZero at 4:20 PM on August 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
Most of the shittiness about this I've seen only has indeed been your more traditional post-2014 whatever-gate type trolls upset about SJWs taking straight Batwoman from them. They don't seem to have read the Rucka/Williams run, which is a shame because it's great, but on the other hand they are gaters so fuck them, they are incapable of appreciating and do not deserve anything good.
That there's a TERFy side campaign working alongside that is entirely believable.
posted by Artw at 4:32 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
That there's a TERFy side campaign working alongside that is entirely believable.
posted by Artw at 4:32 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Has DeviantArt ever had bitter fandom wars before? The site seems tame on controversy compared to Tumblr.
From my experience with both, Tumblr is much more about sharing and resharing media made by a relatively small number of creators, whereas Deviantart is much more focused on sharing your own art. It's hard to gin up controversy in a fandom on Deviantart the way you can on Tumblr, since it lacks the same social feed and accounts that specialize in finding and sharing fandom-specific art and comments. The closest I can imagine are various examples of fan artists who take an unpopular direction in their art, but even then there's no one on Deviantart sharing it saying "Look at this asshole"
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 4:33 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
From my experience with both, Tumblr is much more about sharing and resharing media made by a relatively small number of creators, whereas Deviantart is much more focused on sharing your own art. It's hard to gin up controversy in a fandom on Deviantart the way you can on Tumblr, since it lacks the same social feed and accounts that specialize in finding and sharing fandom-specific art and comments. The closest I can imagine are various examples of fan artists who take an unpopular direction in their art, but even then there's no one on Deviantart sharing it saying "Look at this asshole"
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 4:33 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
What I'm seeing on Tumblr is the social justice side calling this casting anti-semitic. Also, Ruby Rose is somehow not gay enough, and supposedly only straight women are into Ruby Rose. This is why, even though I'm a raging leftist queer, I tend to stay away from the social justice side of Tumblr.
posted by LindsayIrene at 4:36 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by LindsayIrene at 4:36 PM on August 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Almost all of the top tweets on the hashtag seem to be from really intense Ashley Platz fans. I don't know why we're doing the 'round up the usual suspects' thing in this thread; there is actual information go off of. As always, actually reading the FPP links really improves the discussion down here!
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:40 PM on August 14, 2018
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:40 PM on August 14, 2018
Cos it’s post 2014, social media mobs have been massively weaponised and shit is rarely straightforwards anymore? But yeah, I guess there are an amount of then that are just heavily stanning for a different actor and being assholes about it. First user under tag seems to be heavily invested in Supergirl and tweets about little else, for instance.
Almost refreshing in a way.
posted by Artw at 4:47 PM on August 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
Almost refreshing in a way.
posted by Artw at 4:47 PM on August 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
Maybe this is the exceedingly rare instance that actually is political correctness run amok?
No, it's identity politics doing exactly what it does. It will eventually stop subdividing us into smaller and smaller tribes until there are 9 billion tribes consisting of one person each. Which, ironically, is one of the end goals of capitalism too: once we're all each our own demographic, with personalized maps that show us only the geographies we approve of, and news that shows us only facts we agree with, and Netflix shows with actors CGIed to match our finely-crafted identities, nothing will entice us to unite against the agendas of corporations. But we won't care.
posted by eustacescrubb at 4:50 PM on August 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
No, it's identity politics doing exactly what it does. It will eventually stop subdividing us into smaller and smaller tribes until there are 9 billion tribes consisting of one person each. Which, ironically, is one of the end goals of capitalism too: once we're all each our own demographic, with personalized maps that show us only the geographies we approve of, and news that shows us only facts we agree with, and Netflix shows with actors CGIed to match our finely-crafted identities, nothing will entice us to unite against the agendas of corporations. But we won't care.
posted by eustacescrubb at 4:50 PM on August 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
Aren't TERFs and the alt-right or anti-SJWs or whatever essentially indistinguishable now? TERFs have become so reactionary they're pretty much just Conservatives.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:52 PM on August 14, 2018
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:52 PM on August 14, 2018
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Maybe this is the exceedingly rare instance that actually is political correctness run amok?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:06 PM on August 14, 2018 [8 favorites]