The reality of Aung San Suu Kyi
November 12, 2018 10:29 AM Subscribe
Amnesty International has withdrawn its highest honour, the Ambassador of Conscience Award, from Aung San Suu Kyi for actively being involved in the commission or perpetuation of multiple human rights violations against the Rohingya but also for her government's attacks on freedom of speech and other human rights. What caused Aung San Suu Kyi's fall from grace?
As Myanmar sends journalists to jail, pressure mounts on Aung San Suu Kyi
Aung San Suu Kyi defends jailing of journalists who exposed Rakhine massacre, says critics didn’t bother to read the verdict
Why won't Aung San Suu Kyi act?
How Aung San Suu Kyi sees the Rohingya crisis
The principles that made Aung San Suu Kyi an icon are what undid her
What Happened to Myanmar’s Human-Rights Icon?
How Aung San Suu Kyi Lost Her Way
Aung San Suu Kyi: The inside story
Who Is the Real Aung San Suu Kyi?
Aung San Suu Kyi Is A Politician, Not A Monster
Why Aung San Suu Kyi’s Nobel Peace Prize Won’t Be Revoked
As Myanmar sends journalists to jail, pressure mounts on Aung San Suu Kyi
Aung San Suu Kyi defends jailing of journalists who exposed Rakhine massacre, says critics didn’t bother to read the verdict
Why won't Aung San Suu Kyi act?
How Aung San Suu Kyi sees the Rohingya crisis
The principles that made Aung San Suu Kyi an icon are what undid her
What Happened to Myanmar’s Human-Rights Icon?
How Aung San Suu Kyi Lost Her Way
Aung San Suu Kyi: The inside story
Who Is the Real Aung San Suu Kyi?
Aung San Suu Kyi Is A Politician, Not A Monster
Why Aung San Suu Kyi’s Nobel Peace Prize Won’t Be Revoked
She also recently became the first person to be stripped of honourary Canadian citizenship.
posted by ITheCosmos at 10:51 AM on November 12, 2018
posted by ITheCosmos at 10:51 AM on November 12, 2018
I mean...the people and organizations who raised Aung San Suu Kyi up as an icon are, by and large, the first people you expect to sound the alarm about ethnic cleansing. I don't blame any of them for wanting to update their record regarding Aung San Suu Kyi. Man, that fp article makes me mad. When a democracy (or an autocracy with democratic pretensions) does monstrous things, the politicians who put a friendly face on those policies absolutely share the responsibility.
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:51 AM on November 12, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:51 AM on November 12, 2018 [9 favorites]
I don't know much about the real complexities of the situation, but I've long felt that something went seriously sideways with the situation the was supposed to be overseen by Suu Kyi. I'd like to see it resolved somehow, but I don't know enough about any of it to make a statement about how to get there or what it would look like.
posted by hippybear at 10:52 AM on November 12, 2018
posted by hippybear at 10:52 AM on November 12, 2018
Suu Kyi, what an asshole.
posted by Schadenfreude at 11:28 AM on November 12, 2018
posted by Schadenfreude at 11:28 AM on November 12, 2018
Aung San Suu Kyi, what an asshole.
I don't understand what happened. Either her dream of democracy and freedom were limited to just her own ethnic group - which is very possible, there are many people who feel that way - or maybe she doesn't have the freedom to act that we think she does. I just don't know.
What I do know is that there is ethnic cleansing and genocide, and it's still happening, the people are still refugees.
posted by jb at 11:32 AM on November 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't understand what happened. Either her dream of democracy and freedom were limited to just her own ethnic group - which is very possible, there are many people who feel that way - or maybe she doesn't have the freedom to act that we think she does. I just don't know.
What I do know is that there is ethnic cleansing and genocide, and it's still happening, the people are still refugees.
posted by jb at 11:32 AM on November 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
Maybe, just maybe, that "freedom fighter" is just another authoritarian-in-waiting.
And by maybe, I mean most likely. And my most likely, I mean I'll be shocked if they end up in charge and they aren't. And by that I mean, Suu Kyi, what an asshole.
Either her dream of democracy and freedom were limited to just her own ethnic group - which is very possible, there are many people who feel that way - or maybe she doesn't have the freedom to act that we think she does.
The third option is that her dream of freedom and democracy was the PR spin.
posted by tclark at 11:42 AM on November 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
And by maybe, I mean most likely. And my most likely, I mean I'll be shocked if they end up in charge and they aren't. And by that I mean, Suu Kyi, what an asshole.
Either her dream of democracy and freedom were limited to just her own ethnic group - which is very possible, there are many people who feel that way - or maybe she doesn't have the freedom to act that we think she does.
The third option is that her dream of freedom and democracy was the PR spin.
posted by tclark at 11:42 AM on November 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
As soon as she started saying during the election that if her party won she would be "above the President," I knew we were looking at yet another case of, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." It's important to remember in these times of rising right-wing authoritarianism that left-wing authoritarianism's track record is equally horrific. It's important to remember that politicians are not saviors, no matter what rhetoric they're spouting.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:47 AM on November 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:47 AM on November 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
Are, um, people RTFing the A's here? They go into this with a lot more nuance and detail than some of the really uninformed and one dimensional takes here... Maybe give it a shot before just blurting whatever comes to mind about a general authoritarianism or whatever.
posted by smoke at 11:56 AM on November 12, 2018 [32 favorites]
posted by smoke at 11:56 AM on November 12, 2018 [32 favorites]
Obama's prize won't be revoked, and he actively helped Saudi Arabia prosecute its bloodbath in Yemen. Why would Suu Kyi be any different?
posted by 1adam12 at 11:58 AM on November 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 11:58 AM on November 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's important to remember in these times of rising right-wing authoritarianism that left-wing authoritarianism's track record is equally horrific.
Does Suu Kyi have any left-wing beliefs beyond disliking a junta that personally oppressed her? Spouting platitudes about liberty and liking elections as long as you're likely to win them while harboring deep-seated Islamophobia isn't exactly the stuff the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is made of. Her political party doesn't even espouse socialism, let alone state communism.
posted by Copronymus at 12:04 PM on November 12, 2018 [15 favorites]
Does Suu Kyi have any left-wing beliefs beyond disliking a junta that personally oppressed her? Spouting platitudes about liberty and liking elections as long as you're likely to win them while harboring deep-seated Islamophobia isn't exactly the stuff the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is made of. Her political party doesn't even espouse socialism, let alone state communism.
posted by Copronymus at 12:04 PM on November 12, 2018 [15 favorites]
left-wing authoritarianism
Anyone have an example, not just of some group that put a left-wing "call sign" in their name but actually implemented a left-wing agenda when in power?
posted by maxwelton at 12:16 PM on November 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
Anyone have an example, not just of some group that put a left-wing "call sign" in their name but actually implemented a left-wing agenda when in power?
posted by maxwelton at 12:16 PM on November 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
Can you really “no true Scotsman” away the USSR?
posted by Selena777 at 12:25 PM on November 12, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 12:25 PM on November 12, 2018 [14 favorites]
Anyone have an example, not just of some group that put a left-wing "call sign" in their name but actually implemented a left-wing agenda when in power?
Have you heard of Venezuela?
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:26 PM on November 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
Have you heard of Venezuela?
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:26 PM on November 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
From that NYT piece...
"'A [Nobel] peace prize has never been revoked and the committee does not issue condemnations or censure laureates,' said Mr. [Gunnar] Stalsett, a former politician and bishop who was a deputy member of the committee in 1991, when Ms. Aung San Suu Kyi received her award.
'The principle we follow is the decision is not a declaration of a saint,' Mr. Stalsett said. 'When the decision has been made and the award has been given, that ends the responsibility of the committee.'"
What ridiculous, blame-avoiding bullshit. Revoke the damn award.
posted by reductiondesign at 1:03 PM on November 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
"'A [Nobel] peace prize has never been revoked and the committee does not issue condemnations or censure laureates,' said Mr. [Gunnar] Stalsett, a former politician and bishop who was a deputy member of the committee in 1991, when Ms. Aung San Suu Kyi received her award.
'The principle we follow is the decision is not a declaration of a saint,' Mr. Stalsett said. 'When the decision has been made and the award has been given, that ends the responsibility of the committee.'"
What ridiculous, blame-avoiding bullshit. Revoke the damn award.
posted by reductiondesign at 1:03 PM on November 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
"At some point, a fragile balancing act becomes a Faustian pact." - U2
posted by blue shadows at 1:15 PM on November 12, 2018
posted by blue shadows at 1:15 PM on November 12, 2018
I just finished Freedom from Fear, and while it's quite hard to reconcile her past writings with her current actions and statements, hindsight makes certain aspects (e.g. the essay for children about Burma's history and ethnicities) take on a foreboding light.
This situation/person is incredibly complex, and totally not something you should just dip your toes into for hot takes. Ugh. Not through with all the links yet, but I'm glad of the reading list.
She's just yet another monkey in pants...
JFC really? The original comment isn't particularly offensive, but in the context of a post-colonial ethno-state currently involved in genocide it sure as fuck is.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:18 PM on November 12, 2018 [14 favorites]
This situation/person is incredibly complex, and totally not something you should just dip your toes into for hot takes. Ugh. Not through with all the links yet, but I'm glad of the reading list.
She's just yet another monkey in pants...
JFC really? The original comment isn't particularly offensive, but in the context of a post-colonial ethno-state currently involved in genocide it sure as fuck is.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:18 PM on November 12, 2018 [14 favorites]
People becoming assholes when they get power is like the oldest story in the oldest book.
We've got counterexamples of individuals who fought and kept their principles when they got to power though.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:18 PM on November 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
We've got counterexamples of individuals who fought and kept their principles when they got to power though.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:18 PM on November 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
left-wing authoritarianism
Anyone have an example, not just of some group that put a left-wing "call sign" in their name but actually implemented a left-wing agenda when in power?
It’s amazing how the millions of deaths deliberately caused by the Communists who took over Russia and formed the USSR aren’t more widely appreciated.
posted by pharm at 2:30 PM on November 12, 2018 [9 favorites]
Anyone have an example, not just of some group that put a left-wing "call sign" in their name but actually implemented a left-wing agenda when in power?
It’s amazing how the millions of deaths deliberately caused by the Communists who took over Russia and formed the USSR aren’t more widely appreciated.
posted by pharm at 2:30 PM on November 12, 2018 [9 favorites]
Seconding aspersioncast. Freedom from Fear contains several troubling statements -- the notion that the Rohingya are entirely colonial transplants whose settling in Burma is "unfortunate". Likewise, her amused tone when she writes of the Shan as curiosities, dog-eaters, and the paternalism in her speech to the Shan that compares the military government to bad parents, and, of course, the Shan to children. This is not a new direction that Suu Kyi has taken, but one would have hoped she wouldn't have gone so far down that road.
posted by CCBC at 2:46 PM on November 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by CCBC at 2:46 PM on November 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
'When the decision has been made and the award has been given, that ends the responsibility of the committee.'
Ironic, given that the entire point of the prizes may have been to rehabilitate Alfred Nobel's public image.
posted by Etrigan at 2:47 PM on November 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
Ironic, given that the entire point of the prizes may have been to rehabilitate Alfred Nobel's public image.
posted by Etrigan at 2:47 PM on November 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
Anyone have an example, not just of some group that put a left-wing "call sign" in their name but actually implemented a left-wing agenda when in power?
I mean, the U.S.S.R. may not have achieved "communism," per se, but it certainly implemented some significant left-wing policies. Exactly when and why it descended into authoritarianism and how that relates to the vision of communism is of course another question.
posted by atoxyl at 3:28 PM on November 12, 2018 [6 favorites]
I mean, the U.S.S.R. may not have achieved "communism," per se, but it certainly implemented some significant left-wing policies. Exactly when and why it descended into authoritarianism and how that relates to the vision of communism is of course another question.
posted by atoxyl at 3:28 PM on November 12, 2018 [6 favorites]
And plenty of rich people in America got there by their own bootstraps.
Just because something happens doesn't mean it's the rule.
And just because it's not the rule doesn't mean we should never expect it to happen, but neither should we expect to be shocked when it DOES happen.
posted by symbioid at 4:13 PM on November 12, 2018
Just because something happens doesn't mean it's the rule.
And just because it's not the rule doesn't mean we should never expect it to happen, but neither should we expect to be shocked when it DOES happen.
posted by symbioid at 4:13 PM on November 12, 2018
Look, I'm always down for launching into the "The Left vs. The Right, who's got the higher body count" debate, but I'm not sure it really applies to the situation here.
I'm not an expert on Myanmar, but the more I read about this the less it seems to map onto Western ideological lines and more onto longstanding cultural and religious issues exacerbated by colonial policies (significant immigration from India after Great Britain took over Burma, then British arming of ethnic Rohingya to combat pro-Japanese Rakhine militias during WWII which lead to ethnic cleansing and serious atrocities), and periodic flare-ups since (1978 and the early 1990s especially).
The WWII element especially reminds me of the ugly history of the Croat-Serb relationship which resurfaced during the breakup of Yugoslavia and subsequent violence. There's enormous force behind the idea that "those people are responsible for what happened in my father's/grandfather's time", and that provides a powerful weapon for whoever is interested in exploiting it to take and hold power. The Rohingya aren't even the first group to be targeted in this way. This seems to be a preferred strategy of sorts.
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:20 PM on November 12, 2018 [13 favorites]
I'm not an expert on Myanmar, but the more I read about this the less it seems to map onto Western ideological lines and more onto longstanding cultural and religious issues exacerbated by colonial policies (significant immigration from India after Great Britain took over Burma, then British arming of ethnic Rohingya to combat pro-Japanese Rakhine militias during WWII which lead to ethnic cleansing and serious atrocities), and periodic flare-ups since (1978 and the early 1990s especially).
The WWII element especially reminds me of the ugly history of the Croat-Serb relationship which resurfaced during the breakup of Yugoslavia and subsequent violence. There's enormous force behind the idea that "those people are responsible for what happened in my father's/grandfather's time", and that provides a powerful weapon for whoever is interested in exploiting it to take and hold power. The Rohingya aren't even the first group to be targeted in this way. This seems to be a preferred strategy of sorts.
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:20 PM on November 12, 2018 [13 favorites]
Incidentally, I've found Burma/Myanmar: What Everyone Needs to Know to be a fast, effective if somewhat dry overview on the relevant history and problems, if anyone's looking for one.
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:48 PM on November 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:48 PM on November 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
'When the decision has been made and the award has been given, that ends the responsibility of the committee.'
If I were a politician, and the committee had a policy of revoking the award after the fact if a politician did things not to their liking, I would be duty bound not to accept a Nobel until after retirement if ever. It would be insane to accept an award from a foreign country under such terms. As gross as it is, the Nobel committee's policy is the right one: it is given for specific actions, and should only revoked if it turns out those specific actions were not in fact taken, even if it means Kissinger and Arafat keeping their awards, or Aung Sang Suu Kyi keeping hers.
posted by ocschwar at 8:14 PM on November 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
If I were a politician, and the committee had a policy of revoking the award after the fact if a politician did things not to their liking, I would be duty bound not to accept a Nobel until after retirement if ever. It would be insane to accept an award from a foreign country under such terms. As gross as it is, the Nobel committee's policy is the right one: it is given for specific actions, and should only revoked if it turns out those specific actions were not in fact taken, even if it means Kissinger and Arafat keeping their awards, or Aung Sang Suu Kyi keeping hers.
posted by ocschwar at 8:14 PM on November 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
@Thai_Talk: If you live long enough you see a ruthless nationalist autocrat turns into a democrat in his old age and a world peace icon a genocide apologist.
posted by cendawanita at 8:25 PM on November 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 8:25 PM on November 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've posted about Suu Kyi several times. I used to have so much admiration for her. But now, to have fallen so far, I don't think there's anyone else on the planet I'm more disappointed in.
I mean, when VP Mike fucking Pence rebukes her, and he's right, well then this really is a fucked up timeline.
posted by homunculus at 3:23 PM on November 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
I mean, when VP Mike fucking Pence rebukes her, and he's right, well then this really is a fucked up timeline.
posted by homunculus at 3:23 PM on November 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
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posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:43 AM on November 12, 2018 [1 favorite]