A Dream of Spring
November 14, 2018 7:44 AM Subscribe
With a new preview trailer HBO have announced the date of the final season of Game of Thrones as April 2019. George R R Martins' Wildcards series of books is to get a couple of television adaptations... and the next book in A Song of Ice and Fire...? Er... er... well, there's a new history of Westeros book!
He's never going to finish that book, never ever. He's lost the drive for it and it shows. It's more than procrastination, it's almost despondency at this point.
And I'm not blaming him! Finish or not finish, my dude, it's all on you. But that book's never getting written.
(MY BIRTHDAY IS APRIL 22 HBO, PLEASE PLAN ACCORDINGLY).
posted by lydhre at 7:59 AM on November 14, 2018 [14 favorites]
And I'm not blaming him! Finish or not finish, my dude, it's all on you. But that book's never getting written.
(MY BIRTHDAY IS APRIL 22 HBO, PLEASE PLAN ACCORDINGLY).
posted by lydhre at 7:59 AM on November 14, 2018 [14 favorites]
I forgot about Wild Cards. I got through a bunch of them and then just sort of didn't buy anymore. One of them was my reading material on our honeymoon (I'm an early riser, she sleeps late. I drink coffee and read until she gets moving ) in Boston 93. Voluble is a word, right?
posted by mikelieman at 8:00 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by mikelieman at 8:00 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
George R R Martins' Wildcards series of books is to get a couple of television adaptations...
Oh, is it 1989 again? Awesome. I need to put some money down on the Buffalo Bills.
posted by Etrigan at 8:00 AM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
Oh, is it 1989 again? Awesome. I need to put some money down on the Buffalo Bills.
posted by Etrigan at 8:00 AM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
He's never going to finish that book, never ever. He's lost the drive for it and it shows. It's more than procrastination, it's almost despondency at this point.
Seconded. He lost the mojo for it years ago. Either we all just give it up, or GRRM hires a helper to write it, but the poor guy just can't do this one any more. It's too much. He can write other things but not this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:05 AM on November 14, 2018 [9 favorites]
Seconded. He lost the mojo for it years ago. Either we all just give it up, or GRRM hires a helper to write it, but the poor guy just can't do this one any more. It's too much. He can write other things but not this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:05 AM on November 14, 2018 [9 favorites]
I would like an Armageddon Rag miniseries, please and thank you.
posted by BeeDo at 8:06 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by BeeDo at 8:06 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
And I'm not blaming him!
I am, and I’m not even a fan. Fucking hire someone, dude. Get some help. Hire a co-writer. Or a ghostwriter. Who gives a shit, just get it done.
It’s one thing if a series is a commercial flop and finishing it actually costs you considerably. But that is, uh, not the case here. And dude has a disgusting amount of money.
There’s really no excuse for a man in Martin’s position to do this to fans.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:08 AM on November 14, 2018 [18 favorites]
I am, and I’m not even a fan. Fucking hire someone, dude. Get some help. Hire a co-writer. Or a ghostwriter. Who gives a shit, just get it done.
It’s one thing if a series is a commercial flop and finishing it actually costs you considerably. But that is, uh, not the case here. And dude has a disgusting amount of money.
There’s really no excuse for a man in Martin’s position to do this to fans.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:08 AM on November 14, 2018 [18 favorites]
Winter’s not coming.
posted by Segundus at 8:15 AM on November 14, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 8:15 AM on November 14, 2018 [11 favorites]
We are all GRRM's bitch.
posted by whuppy at 8:19 AM on November 14, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 8:19 AM on November 14, 2018 [8 favorites]
Hey, maybe some morning GRRM will wake up and it'll click. It could happen.
What's interesting to me is if he does finish it and it diverges seriously from the HBO series - what if he decides that the ending should be entirely different?
I have a lot of quasi-formed thoughts around the whole thing of series mythologies where you start with a GRRM or George Lucas or Stan Lee or JK Rowling and they evolve into a franchise and take on a different life driven by entirely different people, and in new environments.
Does George R. R. Martin even "own" the authorship of GoT of this point, in the public consciousness? I'd guess more people have watched or will watch the HBO series than will or have read the books. If anything has driven the characters into the public consciousness, it's definitely the show.
So let's say GRRM gets up tomorrow and bangs out the rest of the books and decides the story should end entirely differently. That might be unique in popular culture - lots of televised and filmed books differ from their source material, but AFAIK the books have always come first. (Not counting novelizations of movies.) This would be the first instance I can think of for the mythology to be told first through TV or film, and then be effectively refuted by the author later.
Curious how people would react to that. Certainly would be one way for GRRM to "reclaim" the series and sell more books when the series has already given an ending.
posted by jzb at 8:22 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
What's interesting to me is if he does finish it and it diverges seriously from the HBO series - what if he decides that the ending should be entirely different?
I have a lot of quasi-formed thoughts around the whole thing of series mythologies where you start with a GRRM or George Lucas or Stan Lee or JK Rowling and they evolve into a franchise and take on a different life driven by entirely different people, and in new environments.
Does George R. R. Martin even "own" the authorship of GoT of this point, in the public consciousness? I'd guess more people have watched or will watch the HBO series than will or have read the books. If anything has driven the characters into the public consciousness, it's definitely the show.
So let's say GRRM gets up tomorrow and bangs out the rest of the books and decides the story should end entirely differently. That might be unique in popular culture - lots of televised and filmed books differ from their source material, but AFAIK the books have always come first. (Not counting novelizations of movies.) This would be the first instance I can think of for the mythology to be told first through TV or film, and then be effectively refuted by the author later.
Curious how people would react to that. Certainly would be one way for GRRM to "reclaim" the series and sell more books when the series has already given an ending.
posted by jzb at 8:22 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
he should sketch the outline, hire a dozen different writers to each do their own take on it and swim all the way to the bank on the river of money that'd generate
posted by kokaku at 8:25 AM on November 14, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 8:25 AM on November 14, 2018 [7 favorites]
"There’s really no excuse for a man in Martin’s position to do this to fans."
Martin's in a no-win position at this point, IMO. He literally cannot write anything that will satisfy this much build up and compete with the HBO series in the public consciousness. I doubt he really saw the future going this way when he signed the deal to adapt the series to television.
As a writer, that has to be paralyzing. If he does as you suggest, and just hires a ghostwriter that would likely be obvious (and/or leaked) and he'll be slammed for that. If he finishes it himself, I don't see any way for him to create something that meets the incredibly high expectations that exist now. If he doesn't finish, well, he'll be criticized for that too.
I have some sympathy for that. Given that he's filthy rich in the process it's not a lot of sympathy... but a little.
posted by jzb at 8:27 AM on November 14, 2018 [19 favorites]
Martin's in a no-win position at this point, IMO. He literally cannot write anything that will satisfy this much build up and compete with the HBO series in the public consciousness. I doubt he really saw the future going this way when he signed the deal to adapt the series to television.
As a writer, that has to be paralyzing. If he does as you suggest, and just hires a ghostwriter that would likely be obvious (and/or leaked) and he'll be slammed for that. If he finishes it himself, I don't see any way for him to create something that meets the incredibly high expectations that exist now. If he doesn't finish, well, he'll be criticized for that too.
I have some sympathy for that. Given that he's filthy rich in the process it's not a lot of sympathy... but a little.
posted by jzb at 8:27 AM on November 14, 2018 [19 favorites]
lydhre: He's never going to finish that book, never ever. He's lost the drive for it and it shows. It's more than procrastination, it's almost despondency at this point.
And I'm not blaming him! Finish or not finish, my dude, it's all on you. But that book's never getting written.
schadenfrau: I am, and I’m not even a fan. Fucking hire someone, dude. Get some help. Hire a co-writer. Or a ghostwriter. Who gives a shit, just get it done.
I am totally on board with shadenfrau. I rushed through the books to catch up with the show before its prior season or so, and it was fun, but it was a slog. Which brings to mind Brandon Sanderson finishing out The Wheel of Time (previously, possible spoilers for a now-complete series). Sanderson made the series fun again, which I really appreciated.
kokaku: he should sketch the outline, hire a dozen different writers to each do their own take on it and swim all the way to the bank on the river of money that'd generate
Heck, do a round-robin type thing -- provide a dozen writers with a dozen way-points: get these characters here, and then pass the torch. You can't please everyone, so why not have some fun with it? It may be a bit disjointed, but ffs, so is the show! #TeamBoatTruth (or whatever we were calling ourselves on FanFare when were were shouty about the fact that people would sail around the mythical world in an instant, totally unnoticed.)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:33 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
And I'm not blaming him! Finish or not finish, my dude, it's all on you. But that book's never getting written.
schadenfrau: I am, and I’m not even a fan. Fucking hire someone, dude. Get some help. Hire a co-writer. Or a ghostwriter. Who gives a shit, just get it done.
I am totally on board with shadenfrau. I rushed through the books to catch up with the show before its prior season or so, and it was fun, but it was a slog. Which brings to mind Brandon Sanderson finishing out The Wheel of Time (previously, possible spoilers for a now-complete series). Sanderson made the series fun again, which I really appreciated.
kokaku: he should sketch the outline, hire a dozen different writers to each do their own take on it and swim all the way to the bank on the river of money that'd generate
Heck, do a round-robin type thing -- provide a dozen writers with a dozen way-points: get these characters here, and then pass the torch. You can't please everyone, so why not have some fun with it? It may be a bit disjointed, but ffs, so is the show! #TeamBoatTruth (or whatever we were calling ourselves on FanFare when were were shouty about the fact that people would sail around the mythical world in an instant, totally unnoticed.)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:33 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
I forgot about Wild Cards.
I remember the first ones— I worked in a book store at the time and we were like "So these are super-hero ... anthologies?"—but I only just learned at this moment that he's been cranking them out ever since then. Color me surprised. I guess I'm sort of curious to see how they're handled, but a lot of the "super-powered mutants: heroes or menace?" territory seems pretty well trodden by now. (And frankly, I'd rather have had another couple of seasons of Sense 8.)
posted by octobersurprise at 8:37 AM on November 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
I remember the first ones— I worked in a book store at the time and we were like "So these are super-hero ... anthologies?"—but I only just learned at this moment that he's been cranking them out ever since then. Color me surprised. I guess I'm sort of curious to see how they're handled, but a lot of the "super-powered mutants: heroes or menace?" territory seems pretty well trodden by now. (And frankly, I'd rather have had another couple of seasons of Sense 8.)
posted by octobersurprise at 8:37 AM on November 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
Brandon Sanderson could finish that series better than GRRM in like 3 years while writing all his other series. He's a fucking beast of a writer. Like The Mountain only instead of crushing skulls, he writes you a 1,200 page fantasy book that you really enjoy.
The Stormlight Archive is a good series you can get in on now and he will actually finish it! Each book up to 3 now is better than the last.
Anyway, I still remember reading books 2 and 3 in 2000 while in high school. Begging my parents to read it and saying how awesome of a show it would be. Well, my dream came true and they read the stupid books 15 years later like everyone else, but I don't feel that great about it! Patrick Rothfuss is also never going to finish his much less complex series but no worries... Lin Manuel-Miranda is helping him make a TV show of it.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:39 AM on November 14, 2018 [11 favorites]
The Stormlight Archive is a good series you can get in on now and he will actually finish it! Each book up to 3 now is better than the last.
Anyway, I still remember reading books 2 and 3 in 2000 while in high school. Begging my parents to read it and saying how awesome of a show it would be. Well, my dream came true and they read the stupid books 15 years later like everyone else, but I don't feel that great about it! Patrick Rothfuss is also never going to finish his much less complex series but no worries... Lin Manuel-Miranda is helping him make a TV show of it.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:39 AM on November 14, 2018 [11 favorites]
And I'm not blaming him!
I am, too. The "GRRM is not your bitch" thing was a response to fans being assholes about it, but the demand for more books didn't just happen out of nowhere. Martin explicitly set out to create a multi-book series (which he kept making longer and longer, but that was his decision), and has also explicitly promised an ending. It's not unreasonable for fans to expect the series to be finished; Martin himself created that expectation.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:41 AM on November 14, 2018 [13 favorites]
I am, too. The "GRRM is not your bitch" thing was a response to fans being assholes about it, but the demand for more books didn't just happen out of nowhere. Martin explicitly set out to create a multi-book series (which he kept making longer and longer, but that was his decision), and has also explicitly promised an ending. It's not unreasonable for fans to expect the series to be finished; Martin himself created that expectation.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:41 AM on November 14, 2018 [13 favorites]
I read the first half dozen Wild Card books back in the day when they were re-published in the UK with amazing Brian Bolland covers
Wild Cards is like GoT in that is starts great, with interesting incites and subversion of its genre but then gets all a bit too expansive and slow ... though no way near as slow as GoT does. It's helped by the fact that it uses a number of writers with Martin only writing bits of it and acting as the editor.
There's also lots of sex in it. Lots of weird sex. One of the superheros gets his powers from tantric sex and there's another one that answers the question 'What's The Thing's knob like?'. I heard that things like this only become more ahem prominent in later books.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:54 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
Wild Cards is like GoT in that is starts great, with interesting incites and subversion of its genre but then gets all a bit too expansive and slow ... though no way near as slow as GoT does. It's helped by the fact that it uses a number of writers with Martin only writing bits of it and acting as the editor.
There's also lots of sex in it. Lots of weird sex. One of the superheros gets his powers from tantric sex and there's another one that answers the question 'What's The Thing's knob like?'. I heard that things like this only become more ahem prominent in later books.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:54 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
My evolving theory is that the series is actually pretty close to what Martin originally planned, and what he handed to the creators in his story bible. As the show advanced, he saw that it wasn't much of anything, in the end, and that his big subversion of the fantasy genre was just another boring sword and sorcery tale about a few unlikable chosen heroes fighting a poorly developed ultimate evil. His additions beyond the show ended up being a bunch of smoke and mirrors that added hundreds of pages but no development. He realized, rightly, that the story had been surpassed by the subsequent media it inspired, and that the actual conclusion isn't altogether that interesting.
posted by codacorolla at 9:01 AM on November 14, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 9:01 AM on November 14, 2018 [30 favorites]
Martin's in a no-win position at this point, IMO
I think it's more accurate to say he's already won and doesn't feel like playing anymore.
He doesn't need more money or more fame so why bother? Sure he'll disappoint the fans who made him rich and famous but fuck 'em. There's a million more where they came from.
posted by iamnotangry at 9:07 AM on November 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think it's more accurate to say he's already won and doesn't feel like playing anymore.
He doesn't need more money or more fame so why bother? Sure he'll disappoint the fans who made him rich and famous but fuck 'em. There's a million more where they came from.
posted by iamnotangry at 9:07 AM on November 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
There's also lots of sex in it. Lots of weird sex.
Not sure if I should be excited or frightened by the televisual prospects of this.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:08 AM on November 14, 2018
Not sure if I should be excited or frightened by the televisual prospects of this.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:08 AM on November 14, 2018
I'm just remembering seven-odd years ago when we all thought the financial penalties that HBO wrote into GRRM's contract in the case that the shows overtake the books would really incentivize him to write faster.
(and now I can't even find proof that those financial penalties even existed)
IDK. Part of this is that the series felt amazing and new when it first came out - or when I first started reading it, between books three and four, and now I really don't feel the need for grimdark anymore, and there's nothing fresh-feeling about long medieval epic fantasy. A lot of time has passed since then, and a lot of new and different fantasy series have come in since. Hell, GRRM has even fallen out of vogue for being that author that everyone harasses to finish their epic fantasy series (Pat Rothfuss seems to get that question more now - and the Name of the Wind came out after four of the five ASoIaF books).
posted by dinty_moore at 9:08 AM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
(and now I can't even find proof that those financial penalties even existed)
IDK. Part of this is that the series felt amazing and new when it first came out - or when I first started reading it, between books three and four, and now I really don't feel the need for grimdark anymore, and there's nothing fresh-feeling about long medieval epic fantasy. A lot of time has passed since then, and a lot of new and different fantasy series have come in since. Hell, GRRM has even fallen out of vogue for being that author that everyone harasses to finish their epic fantasy series (Pat Rothfuss seems to get that question more now - and the Name of the Wind came out after four of the five ASoIaF books).
posted by dinty_moore at 9:08 AM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I think there's probably something to that, codacorolla. I don't think it's possible to finish the overall narrative in "only" two more books of 1,500 pages each without a jarring change in narrative flow ("rocks fall on the citadel, everyone inside dies!").
But really, shouldn't this thread not be about how unsatisfying ASOIAF has been since book three and be more about how unsatisfying GoT the show has been since season three?
posted by skewed at 9:11 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
But really, shouldn't this thread not be about how unsatisfying ASOIAF has been since book three and be more about how unsatisfying GoT the show has been since season three?
posted by skewed at 9:11 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
I completely lost interest in the series after volume three. I picked up The Malazan Book of the Fallen instead and I could not be happier about the switch (now on my first reread of the entire canon in published order).
posted by bouvin at 9:11 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by bouvin at 9:11 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also I don't even want to do a reread anymore because my 'male authors spend a lot of time describing their female characters' breasts' threshold has gone way down in the last decade, but damned if I came remember all of the characters and who knew what when.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:14 AM on November 14, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 9:14 AM on November 14, 2018 [13 favorites]
Several series ago I used to be met with astonishment that GRRM wasn't going to finish the next book before the series ended* never mind the whole thing (which will never be ended until he falls under the care of the seven sisters and it's completed by other hands - he's too stubborn to get in a co/ghost writer)
I think it was part of the tv contract that he had to tell the ending and some key plot points on the way ('Hold the door!') to the producers and as the show has got further away from his books and towards the ending it's obvious he's got less and less interested in putting in the keyboard time to get it done.
Also he broke himself at the end of book three. He had originally planned to have a natural break and a sizable time gap in the narrative to allow the prominent child characters (and dragons) to grow up. However when he came to write it, for some reason he found he could not handle doing the backstory/narrative summation bits needed but didn't really know all the details of what happened in that time. So in books Four onward we have a hell of lot of characters just wandering around the map. And He definitely needs a sharper penned editor to cut down on all the endless descriptions of food and shield heraldry that fills the later books.
*I now go for 'All the half dozen or so spin-off series will be finished before he finishes the next book'
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:30 AM on November 14, 2018
I think it was part of the tv contract that he had to tell the ending and some key plot points on the way ('Hold the door!') to the producers and as the show has got further away from his books and towards the ending it's obvious he's got less and less interested in putting in the keyboard time to get it done.
Also he broke himself at the end of book three. He had originally planned to have a natural break and a sizable time gap in the narrative to allow the prominent child characters (and dragons) to grow up. However when he came to write it, for some reason he found he could not handle doing the backstory/narrative summation bits needed but didn't really know all the details of what happened in that time. So in books Four onward we have a hell of lot of characters just wandering around the map. And He definitely needs a sharper penned editor to cut down on all the endless descriptions of food and shield heraldry that fills the later books.
*I now go for 'All the half dozen or so spin-off series will be finished before he finishes the next book'
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:30 AM on November 14, 2018
I feel like the delay starting the final season is a nice homage to the books.
posted by srboisvert at 9:36 AM on November 14, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 9:36 AM on November 14, 2018 [14 favorites]
I feel like the delay starting the final season is a nice homage to the books.
OMG no, the delay in the books was soooo much better than the delay in the show.
posted by skewed at 9:37 AM on November 14, 2018 [17 favorites]
OMG no, the delay in the books was soooo much better than the delay in the show.
posted by skewed at 9:37 AM on November 14, 2018 [17 favorites]
It's funny how the MeFi community treats this post as a writing prompt for "grawr I'm mad GRRM isn't finishing the book I want to read" (with a dash of "let me snark on this thing that's so bad and yet I care about it".)
Meanwhile, back to the content of one of the actual links, there's this giant new unasked-for book coming.
posted by Nelson at 9:38 AM on November 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
Meanwhile, back to the content of one of the actual links, there's this giant new unasked-for book coming.
Martin was just going to “polish and expand the history a little, maybe fill in any holes” about various kings and battles. But he was having so much fun that those little additions ended up running to 350,000 words.That's not the work of a man so despondent and depressed he's unproductive. It's a different kind of problem, a man who no one can say no to. Or a man who likes the smell of his own farts. I mean, at least Tolkien had the decency to keep all his extra material and ephemera to himself; it was his son who plundered the crypt.
posted by Nelson at 9:38 AM on November 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
My evolving theory is that the series is actually pretty close to what Martin originally planned, and what he handed to the creators in his story bible. As the show advanced, he saw that it wasn't much of anything, in the end, and that his big subversion of the fantasy genre was just another boring sword and sorcery tale about a few unlikable chosen heroes fighting a poorly developed ultimate evil. His additions beyond the show ended up being a bunch of smoke and mirrors that added hundreds of pages but no development. He realized, rightly, that the story had been surpassed by the subsequent media it inspired, and that the actual conclusion isn't altogether that interesting.
A corollary is that when you delay the completion of a series for years and years your fans will still continue to grow older, wiser, busier and less tolerant of their shrinking leisure time being wasted. So the expectations only increase.
posted by srboisvert at 9:43 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
A corollary is that when you delay the completion of a series for years and years your fans will still continue to grow older, wiser, busier and less tolerant of their shrinking leisure time being wasted. So the expectations only increase.
posted by srboisvert at 9:43 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
You guys are spoiled. I'm still waiting for book five of "The War Against the Chtorr". Book four came out 25 years ago.
posted by Slothrup at 9:44 AM on November 14, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by Slothrup at 9:44 AM on November 14, 2018 [12 favorites]
So, who'll be the first to publish: Rothfuss or Martin?
posted by bouvin at 9:53 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by bouvin at 9:53 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
bouvin: $5 on "Half-Life 3 comes out before either of them"
posted by hanov3r at 9:55 AM on November 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by hanov3r at 9:55 AM on November 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
As one of the few fans of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, when y'all get to "21 years between books" (time between _White Gold Wielder_ and _The Runes of the Earth_), let me know.
posted by hanov3r at 9:59 AM on November 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by hanov3r at 9:59 AM on November 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
The original links have articles about Martin's other writing, so IDK how discussing his writing is off topic, but whatever...
With regards to the show, I'll probably watch it out of the sunk cost fallacy, but would actually be satisfied with a 1 hour clip show. Every direction that they've pointed the characters in wouldn't be out of place in a David Eddings series.
posted by codacorolla at 10:00 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
With regards to the show, I'll probably watch it out of the sunk cost fallacy, but would actually be satisfied with a 1 hour clip show. Every direction that they've pointed the characters in wouldn't be out of place in a David Eddings series.
posted by codacorolla at 10:00 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
I say again: the more books in a fantasy series, the worse the books get. Tolkien obviously could generate elven lore or metaphysical whatever to infinity, but he was right to make his main work a trilogy.
posted by thelonius at 10:01 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 10:01 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
I know that GRRM is not my bitch and all that and, tbh, the bit that bugs me is not that he hasn't finished the books. The bit that bugged me is that he was constantly making claims that were wildly optimistic. It wasn't just that his books were taking a long time to write, it's that he'd say "The book might be done by the end of this year" and then years pass.
I'm not a writer, I'm a software engineer. I know that planning schedules is tough. But if I say "This might be done by the end of the year" and six years later it's not done then it's pretty clear that I had no idea what the hell I was talking about when I made the original claim.
That's what gets me.
I guess that's the potential downside of an author having an on-line presence. Back in the day the people wrote their books and you had no clue what was going on and you didn't know it was going to be out until it came out. Now you can practically get a live feed of them typing.
(I will also admit that I'm spoiled as all hell, because I have a number of authors who crank out books with clockwork precision. I swear to Zod that I thought I was caught up with Michael Connelly and I'm actually two books behind. How does that happen? Brandon Sanderson may actually be writing books faster than I can read them. I may die with some of his books left unread).
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:03 AM on November 14, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm not a writer, I'm a software engineer. I know that planning schedules is tough. But if I say "This might be done by the end of the year" and six years later it's not done then it's pretty clear that I had no idea what the hell I was talking about when I made the original claim.
That's what gets me.
I guess that's the potential downside of an author having an on-line presence. Back in the day the people wrote their books and you had no clue what was going on and you didn't know it was going to be out until it came out. Now you can practically get a live feed of them typing.
(I will also admit that I'm spoiled as all hell, because I have a number of authors who crank out books with clockwork precision. I swear to Zod that I thought I was caught up with Michael Connelly and I'm actually two books behind. How does that happen? Brandon Sanderson may actually be writing books faster than I can read them. I may die with some of his books left unread).
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:03 AM on November 14, 2018 [8 favorites]
Martin should hand the series off to Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert IMO. Get some literal firebards v icebards throwing down in apocalyptic freestyle.
posted by rodlymight at 10:07 AM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by rodlymight at 10:07 AM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
Because I'm a complete mad man I watch the whole series so far before each new season starts (although in the later years I have made a bit of a concession and fast forwarded through the first few series)
It's definitely not as a good as when it started.. .although the last few seasons have improved on a re-watch I don't think that'll get over some pretty major faults in the last one. I'm def in the camp of 'can we just get it over now'
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:08 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's definitely not as a good as when it started.. .although the last few seasons have improved on a re-watch I don't think that'll get over some pretty major faults in the last one. I'm def in the camp of 'can we just get it over now'
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:08 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Okay, I laughed out loud imagining GRRM smelling his own farts contentedly while he writes about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, humming a joyous little tune.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:10 AM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:10 AM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
As one of the few fans of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, when y'all get to "21 years between books" (time between _White Gold Wielder_ and _The Runes of the Earth_), let me know.
posted by hanov3r at 9:59 AM on November 14 [+] [!]
Melanie Rawn's Exiles Trilogy:
The Ruins of Ambrai 1994.
The Mageborn Traitor 1997.
The Captal's Tower still unwritten, no ETA.
*cries*
posted by twilightlost at 10:12 AM on November 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by hanov3r at 9:59 AM on November 14 [+] [!]
Melanie Rawn's Exiles Trilogy:
The Ruins of Ambrai 1994.
The Mageborn Traitor 1997.
The Captal's Tower still unwritten, no ETA.
*cries*
posted by twilightlost at 10:12 AM on November 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
I need more Steerswoman books!
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:13 AM on November 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:13 AM on November 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
Tolkien obviously could generate elven lore or metaphysical whatever to infinity, but he was right to make his main work a trilogy.
Tolkien was more or less forced to write Lord of the Rings by his publishers after The Hobbit sold well. He wrote LOTR as a single book (intending for it to be Book One of a duology with The Silmarillion), and it took him 18 years, and the publishers still had to basically tear Return of the King out of his hands and strip out multiple appendices just to get the damn thing on shelves.
posted by Etrigan at 10:15 AM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
Tolkien was more or less forced to write Lord of the Rings by his publishers after The Hobbit sold well. He wrote LOTR as a single book (intending for it to be Book One of a duology with The Silmarillion), and it took him 18 years, and the publishers still had to basically tear Return of the King out of his hands and strip out multiple appendices just to get the damn thing on shelves.
posted by Etrigan at 10:15 AM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm still waiting for book five of "The War Against the Chtorr". Book four came out 25 years ago.
In 2015, Gerrold was telling IO9 that the fifth book would be done "in a couple of months." Two years later, Gerrold announced on Facebook that books 5 and 6 were "on the final push toward completion."
Honestly, I'm much more curious about what drives a man to wrestle with something for 25 years than I am about the books themselves.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:31 AM on November 14, 2018
In 2015, Gerrold was telling IO9 that the fifth book would be done "in a couple of months." Two years later, Gerrold announced on Facebook that books 5 and 6 were "on the final push toward completion."
Honestly, I'm much more curious about what drives a man to wrestle with something for 25 years than I am about the books themselves.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:31 AM on November 14, 2018
Fucking hire someone, dude. Get some help. Hire a co-writer. Or a ghostwriter. Who gives a shit, just get it done.
The frustrating thing is that GRRM's assistant is Ty Franck, who is half of the pseudonym James SA Corey, the name that The Expanse books are published under. The other half of Corey is Daniel Abraham, who has a really good, actually completed fantasy series or two under his belt. GRRM doesn't even have to pick up the phone to have the series completed, hell he doesn't even need to unlock the door! Just let Franck and Abraham do it.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:31 AM on November 14, 2018 [15 favorites]
The frustrating thing is that GRRM's assistant is Ty Franck, who is half of the pseudonym James SA Corey, the name that The Expanse books are published under. The other half of Corey is Daniel Abraham, who has a really good, actually completed fantasy series or two under his belt. GRRM doesn't even have to pick up the phone to have the series completed, hell he doesn't even need to unlock the door! Just let Franck and Abraham do it.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:31 AM on November 14, 2018 [15 favorites]
"The Dark Tower" series started in 1982, and we had to wait until 2004 for a conclusion.
(Don't get me started about last years' crappy movie)
posted by jkaczor at 10:34 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
(Don't get me started about last years' crappy movie)
posted by jkaczor at 10:34 AM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
"The Dark Tower" series started in 1982, and we had to wait until 2004 for a conclusion
1982-2004: 22 years
1996-2018: 22 years
A Game of Thrones came out when TV sitcoms had theme songs. RF Kuang, whose Poppy War may very well be nominated for a Hugo this year, is all of two months older than that book. A lot in the fantasy landscape has changed - from epic fantasies with a ton of appendices to the rise and fall of urban fantasy and dystopian YA. The fantasy genre is allowed to be a lot more diverse than it was twenty years ago - not only in authorship but in settings.
This is a series that gained popularity because it was new and different and honestly shocking. GRRM wrote it because he wanted to work on something that could never be filmed. But the series has now lasted so long that it's not even the usual 'too popular for its own good' problems - that it's has such an influence that a lot of what made it special is now trite, but that several cycles in fantasy have come and gone since then. It's difficult, because any new ASoIaF book would be difficult to evaluate as a new book, but it doesn't exactly have the excuse of being from 1996.
It's not that the series is bad, or not worth paying attention to. And I certainly don't think it's a bad thing that fantasy has changed in the last 22 years. But I'm also okay with the series never reaching its conclusion, because time has past and my tastes have changed and there's a lot more fantasy out there that's new and exciting in ways that I would have never imagined when I was first picking up A Game of Thrones.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:49 AM on November 14, 2018 [7 favorites]
1982-2004: 22 years
1996-2018: 22 years
A Game of Thrones came out when TV sitcoms had theme songs. RF Kuang, whose Poppy War may very well be nominated for a Hugo this year, is all of two months older than that book. A lot in the fantasy landscape has changed - from epic fantasies with a ton of appendices to the rise and fall of urban fantasy and dystopian YA. The fantasy genre is allowed to be a lot more diverse than it was twenty years ago - not only in authorship but in settings.
This is a series that gained popularity because it was new and different and honestly shocking. GRRM wrote it because he wanted to work on something that could never be filmed. But the series has now lasted so long that it's not even the usual 'too popular for its own good' problems - that it's has such an influence that a lot of what made it special is now trite, but that several cycles in fantasy have come and gone since then. It's difficult, because any new ASoIaF book would be difficult to evaluate as a new book, but it doesn't exactly have the excuse of being from 1996.
It's not that the series is bad, or not worth paying attention to. And I certainly don't think it's a bad thing that fantasy has changed in the last 22 years. But I'm also okay with the series never reaching its conclusion, because time has past and my tastes have changed and there's a lot more fantasy out there that's new and exciting in ways that I would have never imagined when I was first picking up A Game of Thrones.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:49 AM on November 14, 2018 [7 favorites]
"The Dark Tower" series started in 1982, and we had to wait until 2004 for a conclusion.
Yeah, my experience with The Dark Tower is probably most of the reason that I'm fine if GRRM decides never to finish his series.
posted by skewed at 10:54 AM on November 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
Yeah, my experience with The Dark Tower is probably most of the reason that I'm fine if GRRM decides never to finish his series.
posted by skewed at 10:54 AM on November 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
I'll re-issue the challenge I made when this last came up: If the book series is ever finished, I will bake a Westeros-shaped cake, decorate it with the text of the Night's Watch Oath, and eat it.
(Or has consuming prose-frosted confections fallen out of favor?)
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 11:14 AM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
(Or has consuming prose-frosted confections fallen out of favor?)
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 11:14 AM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
"The Dark Tower" series started in 1982, and we had to wait until 2004 for a conclusion.
"Start to finish" is not the same as "time between books". The longest wait between individual Dark Tower books appears to be 8 years, between the publication of _The Dark Tower_ and _The Wind Through The Keyhole_.
posted by hanov3r at 11:30 AM on November 14, 2018
"Start to finish" is not the same as "time between books". The longest wait between individual Dark Tower books appears to be 8 years, between the publication of _The Dark Tower_ and _The Wind Through The Keyhole_.
posted by hanov3r at 11:30 AM on November 14, 2018
Also, I swear that from pretty early on (if not actually from the beginning) King was open about "Dark Tower is this weird thing I work on when the mood strikes, it's not my main focus, the books come out when they come out."
posted by soundguy99 at 11:36 AM on November 14, 2018
posted by soundguy99 at 11:36 AM on November 14, 2018
Which is to say I think King sidestepped a lot of the GRAR by just not making unrealistic promises.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:48 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 11:48 AM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
preferred GoT endgame:
Daenerys and the Dothraki hordes kill every last Westerosi aristocrat in the south. Just ruins ‘em.
The Others zombify every last Westerosi in the north. Maybe some of ‘em get to keep their personalities, like Sansa becomes the Icy Queen and Arya becomes St. Arya of the Iceknife or whatever. But they all get zombified.
Jon Snow dies ignominiously and stays dead this time. Fuck your secret Targaryen lineage, it does you no good. Have fun being dead and/or a mindless zombie, bro. Have fun knowing nothing.
Daenerys and the Night King somehow merge, preferably in a way that’s as non-sexy-times as possible. Like, the Night King does some sorta mystical mind meld shit with Daenerys, transfers the entire history of Westeros into her brain, she turns all ice-white and blue, he shrivels up and blows away.
Daenerys rules for a hundred thousand generations as the half human half monster ice/fire Kwisatz Haderach.
two decades later, HBO does a sequel that’s straight-up the later dune books with the serial numbers filed off.
If absolutely necessary, Jon Snow gets to come back as a ghola.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:48 AM on November 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
Daenerys and the Dothraki hordes kill every last Westerosi aristocrat in the south. Just ruins ‘em.
The Others zombify every last Westerosi in the north. Maybe some of ‘em get to keep their personalities, like Sansa becomes the Icy Queen and Arya becomes St. Arya of the Iceknife or whatever. But they all get zombified.
Jon Snow dies ignominiously and stays dead this time. Fuck your secret Targaryen lineage, it does you no good. Have fun being dead and/or a mindless zombie, bro. Have fun knowing nothing.
Daenerys and the Night King somehow merge, preferably in a way that’s as non-sexy-times as possible. Like, the Night King does some sorta mystical mind meld shit with Daenerys, transfers the entire history of Westeros into her brain, she turns all ice-white and blue, he shrivels up and blows away.
Daenerys rules for a hundred thousand generations as the half human half monster ice/fire Kwisatz Haderach.
two decades later, HBO does a sequel that’s straight-up the later dune books with the serial numbers filed off.
If absolutely necessary, Jon Snow gets to come back as a ghola.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:48 AM on November 14, 2018 [10 favorites]
Yeah, I guess if you don't know that GRRM constantly promised it was coming out maybe this year, or maybe next year at the latest from all the way back in the early 2010s and he was making such good progress … anger might seem over the top. But he did, and he fucking knew what he was doing.
Eighteen years, yeesh. Now I feel old. I was 16 when he dropped book 3. I still have it, why have I been dragging that hardcover with me for almost 20 years.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 12:10 PM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Eighteen years, yeesh. Now I feel old. I was 16 when he dropped book 3. I still have it, why have I been dragging that hardcover with me for almost 20 years.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 12:10 PM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Daenerys and the Night King somehow merge, preferably in a way that’s as non-sexy-times as possible.
I am resigned to psychic dragon warg sexytimes
posted by thelonius at 12:17 PM on November 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
I am resigned to psychic dragon warg sexytimes
posted by thelonius at 12:17 PM on November 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
For the far future days to come, I have set into motion plans for my descendants to snark most acidly at the seven interlinked blockchains that host the undying GRRM consciousness when it releases Illustrated Sexual Fantasies of Prominent Targaryens, Vol. IX and updates the release date for The Winds of Winter to "TBD"
"why do we do this," the young ones will ask, and their elders will explain that in days long past, their ancestor read a book that killed off the main character halfway through and they really need to try to wrap their heads around how groundbreaking that was at the time
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:25 PM on November 14, 2018 [12 favorites]
"why do we do this," the young ones will ask, and their elders will explain that in days long past, their ancestor read a book that killed off the main character halfway through and they really need to try to wrap their heads around how groundbreaking that was at the time
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:25 PM on November 14, 2018 [12 favorites]
I remember the first ones [of the Wild Cards series]— I worked in a book store at the time and we were like "So these are super-hero ... anthologies?"—but I only just learned at this moment that he's been cranking them out ever since then.
Well... it's a bit more complex than that. Bantam published them from 1987-1993, Baen from 93-95, ibooks from 2002-2006, and Tor from 2008-present. I was following them from the beginning through the end of the Baen era, but sometime during the seven-year-gap in publishing, I decided that I didn't like most of the authors and that the world of the books had diverged too much from ours to have much relevance. I haven't checked out the current run; who knows, maybe I'd get back into them. Maybe.
I would like an Armageddon Rag miniseries, please and thank you.
Hmm. Not sure how that would work, given that book's solid roots in the sixties. And people would just assume that it was ripping off Eddie and the Cruisers.
As for TWoW: well, The Pile is already pretty big and not getting smaller. I've already let go of any sort of expectation or anticipation for it; if it does arrive, I wouldn't be unhappy if it turned out that that comet that showed up at some point had turned out to calve off some fragments that landed with uncanny precision on certain characters that the show has deemed superfluous.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:30 PM on November 14, 2018
Well... it's a bit more complex than that. Bantam published them from 1987-1993, Baen from 93-95, ibooks from 2002-2006, and Tor from 2008-present. I was following them from the beginning through the end of the Baen era, but sometime during the seven-year-gap in publishing, I decided that I didn't like most of the authors and that the world of the books had diverged too much from ours to have much relevance. I haven't checked out the current run; who knows, maybe I'd get back into them. Maybe.
I would like an Armageddon Rag miniseries, please and thank you.
Hmm. Not sure how that would work, given that book's solid roots in the sixties. And people would just assume that it was ripping off Eddie and the Cruisers.
As for TWoW: well, The Pile is already pretty big and not getting smaller. I've already let go of any sort of expectation or anticipation for it; if it does arrive, I wouldn't be unhappy if it turned out that that comet that showed up at some point had turned out to calve off some fragments that landed with uncanny precision on certain characters that the show has deemed superfluous.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:30 PM on November 14, 2018
Not fantasy, but some of us are basically pulling our hair out waiting for The Mirror and the Light....
posted by mr_roboto at 12:33 PM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 12:33 PM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
Jon Snow dies ignominiously and stays dead this time. Fuck your secret Targaryen lineage, it does you no good. Have fun being dead and/or a mindless zombie, bro. Have fun knowing nothing.
Anyone who promises to kill Lord Taupe can have my money
their ancestor read a book that killed off the main character halfway through and they really need to try to wrap their heads around how groundbreaking that was at the time
*eldritch screeching*
In romance there is something called “Too Stupid To Live.” It comes about because coming up with reasons that two reasonably adult people who should be together cannot be together that also does not involve ten years of boring therapy is actually kind of difficult, and many romance writers have, on occasion, said “fuck it” and just put the heroine or hero in peril and thus in need of rescuing, which gets them over their dumb resistance. Fine. But sometimes the only way to do that is to have the heroine — it is usually the heroine, let’s be honest — do something unimaginably stupid, so stupid that she is, indeed, too stupid to live.
Romance readers warn each other about this in reviews — that’s what TSTL means.
Motherfucking Ned “I’ll literally warn Cersei and trust Littlefinger even though he clearly thinks I’m a moron who will get Littlefinger himself killed” Stark is possibly the greatest example of Too Stupid To Live I’ve ever seen, and his only redeeming quality is that he had the good taste to fucking die.
(Don’t tell me warning Cersei was an example of his noble character; he could have saved those kids by smuggling them out of the country himself. Dumb. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.)
posted by schadenfrau at 12:48 PM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
Anyone who promises to kill Lord Taupe can have my money
their ancestor read a book that killed off the main character halfway through and they really need to try to wrap their heads around how groundbreaking that was at the time
*eldritch screeching*
In romance there is something called “Too Stupid To Live.” It comes about because coming up with reasons that two reasonably adult people who should be together cannot be together that also does not involve ten years of boring therapy is actually kind of difficult, and many romance writers have, on occasion, said “fuck it” and just put the heroine or hero in peril and thus in need of rescuing, which gets them over their dumb resistance. Fine. But sometimes the only way to do that is to have the heroine — it is usually the heroine, let’s be honest — do something unimaginably stupid, so stupid that she is, indeed, too stupid to live.
Romance readers warn each other about this in reviews — that’s what TSTL means.
Motherfucking Ned “I’ll literally warn Cersei and trust Littlefinger even though he clearly thinks I’m a moron who will get Littlefinger himself killed” Stark is possibly the greatest example of Too Stupid To Live I’ve ever seen, and his only redeeming quality is that he had the good taste to fucking die.
(Don’t tell me warning Cersei was an example of his noble character; he could have saved those kids by smuggling them out of the country himself. Dumb. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.)
posted by schadenfrau at 12:48 PM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
> resigned to psychic dragon warg sexytimes
dot tumblr dot com
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 1:05 PM on November 14, 2018 [12 favorites]
dot tumblr dot com
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 1:05 PM on November 14, 2018 [12 favorites]
Though it was long ago, I still remember some really unpleasant sexual stuff in Wild Cards--I hope they trim that nonsense back.
Martin explicitly set out to create a multi-book series (which he kept making longer and longer, but that was his decision), and has also explicitly promised an ending.
The man is seventy years old. Who knows how long he has left in actual human time on this planet? Maybe rein in the entitlement just a little there. Unless you paid for the final book in advance, you've got no kick coming. Sometimes life doesn't work out the way we want it to.
posted by praemunire at 1:25 PM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Martin explicitly set out to create a multi-book series (which he kept making longer and longer, but that was his decision), and has also explicitly promised an ending.
The man is seventy years old. Who knows how long he has left in actual human time on this planet? Maybe rein in the entitlement just a little there. Unless you paid for the final book in advance, you've got no kick coming. Sometimes life doesn't work out the way we want it to.
posted by praemunire at 1:25 PM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
zero new footage
this is shurely a fan edit, yes, not a video released by HBO with ~2million views in a day!
perhaps in homage to the book, all the new filming will be done....soon.....and the rest of the season is like this
posted by lalochezia at 1:31 PM on November 14, 2018
this is shurely a fan edit, yes, not a video released by HBO with ~2million views in a day!
perhaps in homage to the book, all the new filming will be done....soon.....and the rest of the season is like this
posted by lalochezia at 1:31 PM on November 14, 2018
omg i didnt see that onion article by optamystic
posted by lalochezia at 1:31 PM on November 14, 2018
posted by lalochezia at 1:31 PM on November 14, 2018
It’s not that I’m not mad that he’s not going to finish the damn thing, btw, it’s just that I’ve made my peace with it, like death and taxes.
posted by lydhre at 1:45 PM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by lydhre at 1:45 PM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Unless you paid for the final book in advance, you've got no kick coming. Sometimes life doesn't work out the way we want it to.
Yeah, I think I tend to take this attitude to creators—or I try to, anyway. I can think of a lot of authors and musicians who I wish would produce more or differently than they have. Would've loved to have finished the Chtorr series when I was younger and really into it. Now my interests are different and I might not bother with them even if they are finished. OTOH, that kind of makes me sad; OTO, fragments and incompleteness yield a certain aesthetic pleasure, too.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:04 PM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I think I tend to take this attitude to creators—or I try to, anyway. I can think of a lot of authors and musicians who I wish would produce more or differently than they have. Would've loved to have finished the Chtorr series when I was younger and really into it. Now my interests are different and I might not bother with them even if they are finished. OTOH, that kind of makes me sad; OTO, fragments and incompleteness yield a certain aesthetic pleasure, too.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:04 PM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Martin's in a no-win position at this point, IMO. He literally cannot write anything that will satisfy this much build up and compete with the HBO series in the public consciousness. I doubt he really saw the future going this way when he signed the deal to adapt the series to television.
FORD PREFECT:
Six pints of bitter and quickly please. The world’s about to end.
BARMAN:
Oh, yes sir, nice weather for it. Going to read the new Games of Thrones novel where he finally ends the series?
FORD PREFECT:
No, no point.
BARMAN:
Foregone conclusion you reckon sir? No way it can live up to expectations?
FORD PREFECT:
No it’s just that the world’s going to end.
BARMAN:
Ah yes you said. Lucky escape for GRRM if it did.
FORD PREFECT:
No, not really.
posted by Naberius at 2:15 PM on November 14, 2018 [18 favorites]
FORD PREFECT:
Six pints of bitter and quickly please. The world’s about to end.
BARMAN:
Oh, yes sir, nice weather for it. Going to read the new Games of Thrones novel where he finally ends the series?
FORD PREFECT:
No, no point.
BARMAN:
Foregone conclusion you reckon sir? No way it can live up to expectations?
FORD PREFECT:
No it’s just that the world’s going to end.
BARMAN:
Ah yes you said. Lucky escape for GRRM if it did.
FORD PREFECT:
No, not really.
posted by Naberius at 2:15 PM on November 14, 2018 [18 favorites]
designate yr favorite piece of asoiaf fanfic as the real canon ending. campaign to get others to agree. if you campaign well enough and enough other people agree, canon Arya ends up ruling an entire orbital as queen-commissar of the gay space communist future skies above Planetos, spacesuited Nymeria at her side, and no one has to think about GRRM ever again.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:16 PM on November 14, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:16 PM on November 14, 2018 [9 favorites]
The way that I thought the series would go back in like 2005 was that John would stay dead, humanity would be nearly decimated by the advancing winter, and only through a loose coalition of the (former) cast-offs of Westerosi society would there be a last bastion that would fight against The Night King (and maybe lose!). I thought that tracked with the larger themes in the series, and would also be interesting from the political perspective that seemed to be built up in A Feast for Crows (e.g. peasant rebellions and such).
The show has mostly abandoned the politics, and made The Sparrows into mustache twirling villains. Chances for character depth were never actually used: Arya is just a badass assassin, and doesn't seem conflicted about her power; John is just a hero, and doesn't seem to have learned anything; Daenarys is still a white savior, and doesn't seem to have grappled with the mess she threw Esteros into; Tyrion is a walking catchphrase, and his conflict over his upbringing (as maudlin and boring as it ended up being in Dance) is mostly forgotten. Interesting tidbits, like Stoneheart (what is the nature of death and undeath in this universe?), emerging capitalism (what is the goal of the Iron Bank, and have they orchestrated this conflict to capture land?), and the Old Gods (between the conflicting faiths of Westeros, what is real, and what is myth?) all have gotten pretty short shrift, and have been pared back to a pretty typical story of heroes with uncertain parentage who emerge from a series of conflicts to act as saviors.
I dunno... most of what seemed promising ~10 years ago is apparently not that important, if we take the show's priorities as a general indication of what Martin was going for over all.
posted by codacorolla at 2:50 PM on November 14, 2018 [9 favorites]
The show has mostly abandoned the politics, and made The Sparrows into mustache twirling villains. Chances for character depth were never actually used: Arya is just a badass assassin, and doesn't seem conflicted about her power; John is just a hero, and doesn't seem to have learned anything; Daenarys is still a white savior, and doesn't seem to have grappled with the mess she threw Esteros into; Tyrion is a walking catchphrase, and his conflict over his upbringing (as maudlin and boring as it ended up being in Dance) is mostly forgotten. Interesting tidbits, like Stoneheart (what is the nature of death and undeath in this universe?), emerging capitalism (what is the goal of the Iron Bank, and have they orchestrated this conflict to capture land?), and the Old Gods (between the conflicting faiths of Westeros, what is real, and what is myth?) all have gotten pretty short shrift, and have been pared back to a pretty typical story of heroes with uncertain parentage who emerge from a series of conflicts to act as saviors.
I dunno... most of what seemed promising ~10 years ago is apparently not that important, if we take the show's priorities as a general indication of what Martin was going for over all.
posted by codacorolla at 2:50 PM on November 14, 2018 [9 favorites]
My guess is that the only reason nobody has compiled a list of past identical discussions is that there aren't enough synonyms for "even more previouslier"...
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 3:14 PM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 3:14 PM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
It seems pretty clear that the series should have been a trilogy, and GRRM should have put his subsequent energies into writing the spinoff prequel stories that are apparently what he's interested in anyway, even if no one else is (sorry, brother). I'd sorta like to see the end of the series, but I imagine the end of the TV show will be close. Honestly, neither series has really gotten any better since the halfway point, so it's whatever. As for GRRM, he's written some books that I really love (GoT and elsewhere), and I know writing is a solitary drag compared to being guest of honor at fantasy cons for the rest of one's life, and he's earned a good time IMO.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:32 PM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:32 PM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
> fearfulsymmetry:
"Wild Cards is like GoT in that is starts great, with interesting incites and subversion of its genre but then gets all a bit too expansive and slow ... though no way near as slow as GoT does. It's helped by the fact that it uses a number of writers with Martin only writing bits of it and acting as the editor.
There's also lots of sex in it. Lots of weird sex. One of the superheros gets his powers from tantric sex and there's another one that answers the question 'What's The Thing's knob like?'. I heard that things like this only become more ahem prominent in later books."
Yeah, but...well, yeah. And it gets weirder like when Water Lily gets reinfected by the Sleeper and it turns out sleeping with her will cure the Wild Card virus. And the crap with the Astronomer. And how would you even handle Captain Trips? He's all drugs all the time!
posted by Samizdata at 3:36 PM on November 14, 2018
"Wild Cards is like GoT in that is starts great, with interesting incites and subversion of its genre but then gets all a bit too expansive and slow ... though no way near as slow as GoT does. It's helped by the fact that it uses a number of writers with Martin only writing bits of it and acting as the editor.
There's also lots of sex in it. Lots of weird sex. One of the superheros gets his powers from tantric sex and there's another one that answers the question 'What's The Thing's knob like?'. I heard that things like this only become more ahem prominent in later books."
Yeah, but...well, yeah. And it gets weirder like when Water Lily gets reinfected by the Sleeper and it turns out sleeping with her will cure the Wild Card virus. And the crap with the Astronomer. And how would you even handle Captain Trips? He's all drugs all the time!
posted by Samizdata at 3:36 PM on November 14, 2018
Arya is just a badass assassin
Yeah, I kinda thought that GRRM was doing something vaguely interesting here (well if he hadn't dragged it out forever...) in that becoming a faceless, utterly ruthless, unstoppable assassin would require you to have all your personality and memories stripped out of you and become a soulless psychopath; which would be absolutely horrible in reality. The tv series kinda started going in this direction before it went for: NINJAS FUCKING RULE!!! Which wasn't quite so interesting. And that's just one example.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:49 PM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I kinda thought that GRRM was doing something vaguely interesting here (well if he hadn't dragged it out forever...) in that becoming a faceless, utterly ruthless, unstoppable assassin would require you to have all your personality and memories stripped out of you and become a soulless psychopath; which would be absolutely horrible in reality. The tv series kinda started going in this direction before it went for: NINJAS FUCKING RULE!!! Which wasn't quite so interesting. And that's just one example.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:49 PM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
the thing is, if you want to know how GRRM intends to end ASoIaF, you could just refer to the novella version of it that he wrote like 40 years ago. Don't be thrown by how all the westerosi and essosi are represented by space bugs that live in a large terrarium; it's A Song of Ice and Fire.
Damn good story too. won a hugo and a nebula. the ending is great.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 3:50 PM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Damn good story too. won a hugo and a nebula. the ending is great.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 3:50 PM on November 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
My boss used to ask people “which game of thrones character are you most like” as an interview question and I said Hot Pie
posted by freecellwizard at 4:17 PM on November 14, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 4:17 PM on November 14, 2018 [18 favorites]
spoiler:
(no really spoiler)
In Sandkings, a bunch of quasi-medieval sorta-intelligent social insects live in a very large terrarium and fight elegant knightly wars, which the owner of the terrarium subtly shapes by controlling which group of insects get which resources. The insects worship him as a god and emblazon their sandcastles with his image. He's a distractible sadistic wastrel asshole, though, so when the insect wars start being too unstimulating for him, he begins to throw other types of creatures into the terrarium, which the insects band together to fight and devour. When he gets bored of that he tries to heighten the intensity of the wars by adjusting the temperature in the terrarium outside the insects' preferred range and denying them sufficient food to all live.
Eventually the insects escape the terrarium and slip away from of their sadistic wastrel creator-god. Given more space to live in, they grow bigger than he can control. The novella ends with one of the bands of insects finding their former creator and feeding him headfirst into the gaping maw of their queen.
I figure the start of the HBO show and the beginning of the series' mainstream popularity is when the terrarium broke open. GRRM should be fully consumed by his creation and thereby put out of his misery in a year or two, I'd say.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 4:18 PM on November 14, 2018 [7 favorites]
(no really spoiler)
In Sandkings, a bunch of quasi-medieval sorta-intelligent social insects live in a very large terrarium and fight elegant knightly wars, which the owner of the terrarium subtly shapes by controlling which group of insects get which resources. The insects worship him as a god and emblazon their sandcastles with his image. He's a distractible sadistic wastrel asshole, though, so when the insect wars start being too unstimulating for him, he begins to throw other types of creatures into the terrarium, which the insects band together to fight and devour. When he gets bored of that he tries to heighten the intensity of the wars by adjusting the temperature in the terrarium outside the insects' preferred range and denying them sufficient food to all live.
Eventually the insects escape the terrarium and slip away from of their sadistic wastrel creator-god. Given more space to live in, they grow bigger than he can control. The novella ends with one of the bands of insects finding their former creator and feeding him headfirst into the gaping maw of their queen.
I figure the start of the HBO show and the beginning of the series' mainstream popularity is when the terrarium broke open. GRRM should be fully consumed by his creation and thereby put out of his misery in a year or two, I'd say.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 4:18 PM on November 14, 2018 [7 favorites]
The thing is, I so, so, so, so get the whole, "George R. R. Martin is not your bitch," thing. I do.
But recently on twitter a few sci-fi/fantasy authors I follow have made comments about how people who wait until a series is finished to buy the books may ensure that there's no series to buy. After all, if the early books don't sell, etc etc.
Which I get, but recognition that readers are maybe more cautious now for good freaking reasons would be nice.
posted by Myca at 4:50 PM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
But recently on twitter a few sci-fi/fantasy authors I follow have made comments about how people who wait until a series is finished to buy the books may ensure that there's no series to buy. After all, if the early books don't sell, etc etc.
Which I get, but recognition that readers are maybe more cautious now for good freaking reasons would be nice.
posted by Myca at 4:50 PM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
if GRRM is your bitch you need to get a better dog. cause the one you got don't hunt no more.
like, seriously, I'm not exactly known for being a writer who produces consistent amounts of output, but I have written literally scads of books since he finished A Storm of Swords.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 4:54 PM on November 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
like, seriously, I'm not exactly known for being a writer who produces consistent amounts of output, but I have written literally scads of books since he finished A Storm of Swords.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 4:54 PM on November 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
endings are terrible, though. how many good movies/books/tv shows/SNL skits/etc have you enjoyed only to have the experience ruined by a stupid ending?
my favorite manga? the ending is some sort of bizarre lengthy pro wrestling fanservice side story. favorite movie? it ends with goddamn teddy bears singing a hokey song that's so bad they could only fix it by replacing it with a song that's even worse. my favorite TV show couldn't even figure out how to end itself so they just cut to a black screen for Christ's sake. ending fictional narratives is a mug's game. this George Rr Martin guy -- he's got it figured out. he's smart. he doesn't end shit.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:59 PM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
my favorite manga? the ending is some sort of bizarre lengthy pro wrestling fanservice side story. favorite movie? it ends with goddamn teddy bears singing a hokey song that's so bad they could only fix it by replacing it with a song that's even worse. my favorite TV show couldn't even figure out how to end itself so they just cut to a black screen for Christ's sake. ending fictional narratives is a mug's game. this George Rr Martin guy -- he's got it figured out. he's smart. he doesn't end shit.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:59 PM on November 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
> ending fictional narratives is a mug's game
I resent that. the thing where the top-secret german missile ends up landing in a nixon-era american movie theater? pure gold, don't deny it.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 5:09 PM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
I resent that. the thing where the top-secret german missile ends up landing in a nixon-era american movie theater? pure gold, don't deny it.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 5:09 PM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
The first two books were fever-dream intense, and then it's like some doctor gave him an exotic antibiotic which cured him of the ability to finish the series.
posted by jamjam at 5:43 PM on November 14, 2018
posted by jamjam at 5:43 PM on November 14, 2018
Took Stephen King getting run down by a van to have the Dark Tower series finished. Though he's not worked on The Plant for a bit.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:49 PM on November 14, 2018
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:49 PM on November 14, 2018
I can think of a lot of authors and musicians who I wish would produce more or differently than they have.
Listen, I stay up nights worrying about Hilary Mantel's health, which has never been great.
posted by praemunire at 6:00 PM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
Listen, I stay up nights worrying about Hilary Mantel's health, which has never been great.
posted by praemunire at 6:00 PM on November 14, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also from The Onion: Supposed ‘Game Of Thrones’ Buff Hasn’t Even Finished Books Yet
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:12 PM on November 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:12 PM on November 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
You know what? This thread has just convinced me to donate my GoT series. I used to reread it every time a boon came out. But honestly, I’m so over it that I doubt I’d read another book (ha! Like one’s coming) never mind reread the old ones. In to the donation pile they go.
I feel better.
posted by greermahoney at 6:36 PM on November 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
I feel better.
posted by greermahoney at 6:36 PM on November 14, 2018 [5 favorites]
I can recommend some contemporary/near-contemporary literary novels if you’d like something to replace GoT. They’re a little bit dense at first, but stick with them, it’s worth it.
Some of them are secretly sci-fi, which is pretty fun to discover.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 6:40 PM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
Some of them are secretly sci-fi, which is pretty fun to discover.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 6:40 PM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
The thing is - if he can’t do it or doesn’t want to do it anymore for whatever reason - just fucking admit that. He is already rolling in piles of money. The only thing it will result in is less fans buying him cheeseburgers at conventions. What makes me angry is not that he doesn’t have the juice for it anymore, it’s that he stubbornly refuses to admit he doesn’t have the motivation and keeps insisting it will be there any moment.
posted by corb at 6:21 AM on November 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by corb at 6:21 AM on November 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah, my experience with The Dark Tower is probably most of the reason that I'm fine if GRRM decides never to finish his series.
So much this... I have been about halfway through the final book for over a year, it just kind of fizzled out...
posted by jkaczor at 9:04 AM on November 15, 2018
So much this... I have been about halfway through the final book for over a year, it just kind of fizzled out...
posted by jkaczor at 9:04 AM on November 15, 2018
Percentage of writers who can admit they're permanently stuck/out of inspiration: ~15%
And...let's be realistic about the Internet. An announcement he wouldn't be finishing would bring every entitled feces-flinging chimpanzee out of the woodwork to howl about they wuz ROBBED, ROBBED, and how dare he and etc. I wouldn't voluntarily subject myself to that based on a nebulous obligation to tell people I was permanently blocked on a story I'd been working on. Especially since people are going to get some kind of end to the story, just not the one directly written by me...
posted by praemunire at 9:08 AM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
And...let's be realistic about the Internet. An announcement he wouldn't be finishing would bring every entitled feces-flinging chimpanzee out of the woodwork to howl about they wuz ROBBED, ROBBED, and how dare he and etc. I wouldn't voluntarily subject myself to that based on a nebulous obligation to tell people I was permanently blocked on a story I'd been working on. Especially since people are going to get some kind of end to the story, just not the one directly written by me...
posted by praemunire at 9:08 AM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think there's a distinct possibility that he is still working on the book and does intend to finish, but has let the thing sprawl so out of control, as the acclaim and expectations have piled on, that when we finally get the thing, it may be four volumes and 2K pages long and more of an object lesson in what happens when a writer gets too famous for anyone to tell him no than it is an actual book.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:11 AM on November 15, 2018
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:11 AM on November 15, 2018
> And...let's be realistic about the Internet. An announcement he wouldn't be finishing would bring every entitled feces-flinging chimpanzee out of the woodwork to howl about they wuz ROBBED, ROBBED, and how dare he and etc
See the shitty thing is that if these folks would just settle down and read my totally legit canon fanfic about Arya finding a Culture shuttle stashed away in Braavos and flying it up to the GCU The Night is Dark and Full of Errors (which has been controlling the seasons in Westeros by every so often adjusting the planet’s axial tilt), they’d realize that a satisfying resolution to the story is right there. like, folks, we don’t need GRRM! We don’t need him at all! it’s all good!
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:18 AM on November 15, 2018 [9 favorites]
See the shitty thing is that if these folks would just settle down and read my totally legit canon fanfic about Arya finding a Culture shuttle stashed away in Braavos and flying it up to the GCU The Night is Dark and Full of Errors (which has been controlling the seasons in Westeros by every so often adjusting the planet’s axial tilt), they’d realize that a satisfying resolution to the story is right there. like, folks, we don’t need GRRM! We don’t need him at all! it’s all good!
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:18 AM on November 15, 2018 [9 favorites]
(like seriously what did you think that business with the comet back in book 2 was about? The foreshadowing is super clear! there’s a Culture vessel up there!)
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:28 AM on November 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:28 AM on November 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
BTW this thread's mentions of Hilary Mantel have finally got me off the schneid and reading her non-Wolf Hall work. So far I'm enjoying Beyond Black, so thanks for that!
posted by whuppy at 10:01 AM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 10:01 AM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, but...well, yeah. And it gets weirder like when Water Lily gets reinfected by the Sleeper and it turns out sleeping with her will cure the Wild Card virus.Oh come on, don't stop there, Continue on to the part where rumor gets out that there is some Wild Card out there who can turn people with hideous mutations into people with cool superpowers via sex, and then the ones with hideous mutations form rape parties and hunt down anyone who might possibly be her. Or... I could go on. I used to have a really bad habit of reading things well after I have figured out they were horrible.
The Wild Cards books were a kind of interesting take on a superheroes at first and then rapidly descended into the very fashionable "What if x except edgelord?" where in this case x=superheroes. I'm about as thrilled about this becoming as series as if they announced the next Netflix Marvel franchise was going to be Ruins.
posted by Karmakaze at 10:56 AM on November 15, 2018
> Also from The Onion: Supposed ‘Game Of Thrones’ Buff Hasn’t Even Finished Books Yet
Nice!
posted by homunculus at 11:57 AM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Nice!
posted by homunculus at 11:57 AM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've been trying to figure out why I'm not really all that bummed about the fact that we'll never get a book resolution to this series, and partly it's the show, partly it's that I've just moved on, partly it's that the last two books were a slog (and let's be honest, Book 2 was also kind of a slog, so really, that's 2 excellent books and 3 slogs out of a 5-book series). This helped me realize the bigger issue:
A lot in the fantasy landscape has changed - from epic fantasies with a ton of appendices to the rise and fall of urban fantasy and dystopian YA. The fantasy genre is allowed to be a lot more diverse than it was twenty years ago - not only in authorship but in settings.
Except I think it's even bigger than that. The first book came out in the 90s, when its somewhat nihilistic, deconstruction-of-tropes theme was very much of the zeitgeist. It was part of that whole end of history, "the world order is dead," postmodernist spirit of the time. Pulp Fiction and irony. Sure, write a series that pulls the rug out from under you and kills the supposed hero at the end of the first book, a series that makes you question the idea of "good sides" and "bad sides." I imagine that was actually sorely needed in the 90s, as we were trying to move beyond the Cold War mentality.
But now we're back in a time when we're fighting against genuinely bad actors, who themselves have used the previous era's nihilism and even postmodernism to argue that the truth doesn't matter, that facts don't matter. I mean, we're in a battle with actual Nazis/fascists for the soul of our country (at least here in the US, but also several other places). So his nihilism and deconstructionism starts to feel a lot less clever. I find myself wanting to read books where the good guys eventually triumph, even if it's hard and complicated. I don't really want to read a book about Might Making Right and the good guys getting trampled, you know? Too much of that in real life right now.
posted by lunasol at 12:20 PM on November 15, 2018 [8 favorites]
A lot in the fantasy landscape has changed - from epic fantasies with a ton of appendices to the rise and fall of urban fantasy and dystopian YA. The fantasy genre is allowed to be a lot more diverse than it was twenty years ago - not only in authorship but in settings.
Except I think it's even bigger than that. The first book came out in the 90s, when its somewhat nihilistic, deconstruction-of-tropes theme was very much of the zeitgeist. It was part of that whole end of history, "the world order is dead," postmodernist spirit of the time. Pulp Fiction and irony. Sure, write a series that pulls the rug out from under you and kills the supposed hero at the end of the first book, a series that makes you question the idea of "good sides" and "bad sides." I imagine that was actually sorely needed in the 90s, as we were trying to move beyond the Cold War mentality.
But now we're back in a time when we're fighting against genuinely bad actors, who themselves have used the previous era's nihilism and even postmodernism to argue that the truth doesn't matter, that facts don't matter. I mean, we're in a battle with actual Nazis/fascists for the soul of our country (at least here in the US, but also several other places). So his nihilism and deconstructionism starts to feel a lot less clever. I find myself wanting to read books where the good guys eventually triumph, even if it's hard and complicated. I don't really want to read a book about Might Making Right and the good guys getting trampled, you know? Too much of that in real life right now.
posted by lunasol at 12:20 PM on November 15, 2018 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I...get that, lunasol. Like, what do you do when the zeitgeist has changed but your book hasn't? When people used to love that you didn't give happy endings, and now the world is dark and full of terrors and people just want nice things to happen to the characters they care about?
posted by corb at 12:55 PM on November 15, 2018
posted by corb at 12:55 PM on November 15, 2018
Note too that he lost the plot in book 4, right around when he decided to use Daenerys's liberation of the slaves of Slaver's Bay as a metaphor for the American invasion of Iraq, never mind that:
1) Allegorical representation of the Iraq War, having not yet happened, was not part of the series at the outset, and grafting it into the extent story in an attempt to maintain relevance was a bad idea. Moreover, now that we're no longer in the godforsaken Bush Era and are instead in the even more godforsaken Trump Era, that grasping attempt at relevance just makes the text seem even more dated.
2) Daenerys's revolutionary violence against tyranny was performed in good faith and for a morally justifiable reason, even if Daenerys is better at conquering places than at governing them. The Iraq War was an unjustifiable smash-and-grab and it's silly to treat the Bush administration's naked lies as isomorphic to a heavily-armed ex-slave's genuine liberatory aims matched to genuinely liberatory rhetoric.
2.5) basically, the Iraq War was a failure because it was carried out in bad faith for bad reasons, while Daenerys acted in good faith, but lacked the technical knowhow to govern well. These are different failures.
3) GRRM is a workmanlike writer who keeps straining too hard to write something Meaningful and Respectable. Perversely, these moments are precisely when his writing becomes most meaningless and disreputable.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 1:02 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
1) Allegorical representation of the Iraq War, having not yet happened, was not part of the series at the outset, and grafting it into the extent story in an attempt to maintain relevance was a bad idea. Moreover, now that we're no longer in the godforsaken Bush Era and are instead in the even more godforsaken Trump Era, that grasping attempt at relevance just makes the text seem even more dated.
2) Daenerys's revolutionary violence against tyranny was performed in good faith and for a morally justifiable reason, even if Daenerys is better at conquering places than at governing them. The Iraq War was an unjustifiable smash-and-grab and it's silly to treat the Bush administration's naked lies as isomorphic to a heavily-armed ex-slave's genuine liberatory aims matched to genuinely liberatory rhetoric.
2.5) basically, the Iraq War was a failure because it was carried out in bad faith for bad reasons, while Daenerys acted in good faith, but lacked the technical knowhow to govern well. These are different failures.
3) GRRM is a workmanlike writer who keeps straining too hard to write something Meaningful and Respectable. Perversely, these moments are precisely when his writing becomes most meaningless and disreputable.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 1:02 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
GRRM just needs to get back to his roots -- writing stories about his collection of miniature medieval figurines fucking and murdering each other.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:25 PM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:25 PM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
How Game of Thrones Failed Its Female Characters in Adaptation, Part One: The Stark Women
How Game of Thrones Failed Its Female Characters in Adaptation, Part Two: Cersei, Dany, & Shae
Part three will be the women of Dorne (including Margaery Tyrell, even though she's not Dornish) and part four will be the Lannister brothers.
posted by homunculus at 2:14 PM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
How Game of Thrones Failed Its Female Characters in Adaptation, Part Two: Cersei, Dany, & Shae
Part three will be the women of Dorne (including Margaery Tyrell, even though she's not Dornish) and part four will be the Lannister brothers.
posted by homunculus at 2:14 PM on November 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
*I now go for 'All the half dozen or so spin-off series will be finished before he finishes the next book'
Speaking of which: Naomi Watts Joins the Woman-Led Game of Thrones Prequel, Giving Us Hope for a Feminist Westeros
Speaking of which: Naomi Watts Joins the Woman-Led Game of Thrones Prequel, Giving Us Hope for a Feminist Westeros
Now, if you’re a regular TMS reader you know that our relationship with Game of Thrones is … complicated to say the least. There’s a lot to love about the series: strong performances, stunning visuals, and a level of production value that is simply unmatched in television. But the series repeated assaults and brutality towards its female characters makes it unpleasant and at times unwatchable. For us, the rape of Sansa Stark was a clear line in the sand, where the show prioritized sexual violence over the treatment of its female characters.posted by homunculus at 3:03 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
This lack of awareness no doubt stems from the almost exclusively male writers room on the series. Over the course of seven seasons and 73 episodes, Game of Thrones has only hired two female writers (Jane Espenson and Vanessa Taylor) who wrote a combined four episodes. That’s 5.5% of women writers for you statistics nerds. The line-up of female directors is even more dismal, with only one woman directing the series (Michelle MacLaren), who has directed four episodes, another 5.5% representation.
... so when I saw this Onion story I just assumed that it referred to a female director for some episodes of the GoT final season, and that the perv representative exec had demanded this concession.
posted by homunculus at 3:03 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 3:03 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
3) GRRM is a workmanlike writer who keeps straining too hard to write something Meaningful and Respectable. Perversely, these moments are precisely when his writing becomes most meaningless and disreputable.
To wit: Fevre Dream, a perfectly acceptable potboiler about vampires prowling along the antebellum Mississippi River ("Bram Stoker meets Mark Twain") that sort of accidentally backs into being an examination of friendship, loss, and how doing the right thing doesn't always work out the way you hope, vs. The Armageddon Rag which was clearly intended to Say Something about rock and roll and the '60's Boomer Experience And Aftermath but in the words of Kirkus Reviews was, “simpleminded, heavy-going nostalgia for the Sixties-rock counterculture with a murky mixture of psycho-whodunit, conspiracy-thriller, and ... vague occultery.”
posted by soundguy99 at 5:27 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
To wit: Fevre Dream, a perfectly acceptable potboiler about vampires prowling along the antebellum Mississippi River ("Bram Stoker meets Mark Twain") that sort of accidentally backs into being an examination of friendship, loss, and how doing the right thing doesn't always work out the way you hope, vs. The Armageddon Rag which was clearly intended to Say Something about rock and roll and the '60's Boomer Experience And Aftermath but in the words of Kirkus Reviews was, “simpleminded, heavy-going nostalgia for the Sixties-rock counterculture with a murky mixture of psycho-whodunit, conspiracy-thriller, and ... vague occultery.”
posted by soundguy99 at 5:27 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Melanie Rawn's Exiles Trilogy
Bah, I raise you David Gerrold's War Against the Chtorr.
A Matter for Men (1983)
A Day for Damnation (1985)
A Rage for Revenge (1989)
A Season for Slaughter (1993)
A Nest for Nightmares (???)
I dunno when the fifth book changed from "A Time for Treason" to "A Nest for Nightmares" but switching things up like that 25 years after the last book was published is surely a sign that everything is under control and on track!
posted by Justinian at 8:49 PM on November 15, 2018
Bah, I raise you David Gerrold's War Against the Chtorr.
A Matter for Men (1983)
A Day for Damnation (1985)
A Rage for Revenge (1989)
A Season for Slaughter (1993)
A Nest for Nightmares (???)
I dunno when the fifth book changed from "A Time for Treason" to "A Nest for Nightmares" but switching things up like that 25 years after the last book was published is surely a sign that everything is under control and on track!
posted by Justinian at 8:49 PM on November 15, 2018
Actually I think the fifth book was "A Method for Madness" and "Treason" was the sixth. Who the hell knows anymore. People have been born, grown up, been educated, and are halfway through their PhDs since the last one was published.
posted by Justinian at 8:53 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 8:53 PM on November 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
George R.R. Martin apparently now hiding out in a cabin to get this goddamn book done
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:25 PM on November 17, 2018
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:25 PM on November 17, 2018
I am such a sweet summer child. That post actually makes me hopeful that it will get done.
posted by Ber at 7:08 AM on November 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Ber at 7:08 AM on November 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
Fire & Blood is the best new Song of Ice and Fire book in 18 years. But will anyone read it?
posted by dinty_moore at 6:52 AM on November 26, 2018
posted by dinty_moore at 6:52 AM on November 26, 2018
"featuring a dry, staid, objective tone". Look, I'm just here for the incest and filicide. And the fearsomely strong mead.
posted by Nelson at 7:23 AM on November 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 7:23 AM on November 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
Game of Thrones | Season 8 | Official Tease: Dragonstone
posted by homunculus at 9:59 AM on December 8, 2018
posted by homunculus at 9:59 AM on December 8, 2018
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posted by Optamystic at 7:53 AM on November 14, 2018 [3 favorites]