Din dinner.
November 28, 2018 9:32 PM Subscribe
How Restaurants Got So Loud. "Constructing interiors out of hard surfaces makes them easier (and thus cheaper) to clean. Eschewing ornate decor, linens, table settings, and dishware makes for fewer items to wash or replace. Reducing table service means fewer employees and thus lower overhead. And as many writers have noted, loud restaurants also encourage profitable dining behavior. Noise encourages increased alcohol consumption and produces faster diner turnover. More people drinking more booze produces more revenue. Knowing this, some restaurateurs even make their establishments louder than necessary in an attempt to maximize profits."
Next up, I hope: how everywhere got so loud. It is a pet peeve of the missus: going into a retail shop with the music up at nightclub level. I have a decibel counter app on my phone and a professional knowledge of workplace safety regulations. Probably half the retail establishments and restaurants are at a level that should legally require them to issue hearing protection to employees.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:05 PM on November 28, 2018 [52 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:05 PM on November 28, 2018 [52 favorites]
I'm not personally convinced that phone meters are as good as dedicated models BUT I want to encourage you to rat them out to OSHA.
...I'm not joking.
Really. The world is ripe for this kind of personal crusade, and god knows we need the "customer" to start laying the hammer down on the bosses.
(note: I'm aggro about worker safety, so YMMV).
posted by aramaic at 10:09 PM on November 28, 2018 [83 favorites]
...I'm not joking.
Really. The world is ripe for this kind of personal crusade, and god knows we need the "customer" to start laying the hammer down on the bosses.
(note: I'm aggro about worker safety, so YMMV).
posted by aramaic at 10:09 PM on November 28, 2018 [83 favorites]
Good news! Excision has upgraded from a 150,000 watt sound system to a 225,000 watt sound system for the next tour.
posted by poe at 10:13 PM on November 28, 2018
posted by poe at 10:13 PM on November 28, 2018
Pretty much what I had figured. No wonder little kids are antsier and more prone to emotional upset.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:35 PM on November 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:35 PM on November 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yep, I've noticed this trend. Don't like it one bit. Became extra apparent when I stopped reflexively drinking everytime I went out.
My ex partner (herself a back-of-house food service worker) and I used to hunt out places that were open between lunch and dinner rushes, and were uncrowded during these lulls. And then ask them to turn down the music to non-nightclub volume cause we were the only ones eatijg there and we had to yell to hear one another.
Kind of a moot point now, most of my peer group can no longer afford to go out to eat very often, so we're gradually transitioning back to hanging out at oje another's homes, cooking better food for much less money, and keeping the background noise low enough that we can comfortably talk.
(And don't even get me started on uncomfortable high-stool seating...)
posted by ethical_caligula at 10:36 PM on November 28, 2018 [29 favorites]
My ex partner (herself a back-of-house food service worker) and I used to hunt out places that were open between lunch and dinner rushes, and were uncrowded during these lulls. And then ask them to turn down the music to non-nightclub volume cause we were the only ones eatijg there and we had to yell to hear one another.
Kind of a moot point now, most of my peer group can no longer afford to go out to eat very often, so we're gradually transitioning back to hanging out at oje another's homes, cooking better food for much less money, and keeping the background noise low enough that we can comfortably talk.
(And don't even get me started on uncomfortable high-stool seating...)
posted by ethical_caligula at 10:36 PM on November 28, 2018 [29 favorites]
I was in a restaurant a couple of months ago for brunch, and the dB meter app on my phone registered it at 105 dB, which is enough for permanent hearing damage. After that one, I got a pair of earplugs to keep on my keychain.
I agree about ratting the establishments out to OSHA. None of the servers were wearing hearing protection.
posted by MythMaker at 10:37 PM on November 28, 2018 [15 favorites]
I agree about ratting the establishments out to OSHA. None of the servers were wearing hearing protection.
posted by MythMaker at 10:37 PM on November 28, 2018 [15 favorites]
*before reading* is the problem the profit drive?
*reads*
The problem is the profit drive.
One of the more unexpected radical turns I’ve taken in the last few years is that the American food service industry, from the very top to the very bottom, is just horroribly exploitative and runs on misery and probobly shouldn’t exist in anything resembling its current form. There should be like city run cafeterias and automats to compete.
That being said I wonder how much hanging rugs on the wall (low investment, not gonna get dirty too much, 70s boho cred) would help with the problem as they are the acoustic dampeners of people living in shoddily made apartment blocs. I can see plush carpets being a non starter, but a lot of apartment trends now are for noise fools using shelves of potted plants and runners.
posted by The Whelk at 10:43 PM on November 28, 2018 [15 favorites]
*reads*
The problem is the profit drive.
One of the more unexpected radical turns I’ve taken in the last few years is that the American food service industry, from the very top to the very bottom, is just horroribly exploitative and runs on misery and probobly shouldn’t exist in anything resembling its current form. There should be like city run cafeterias and automats to compete.
That being said I wonder how much hanging rugs on the wall (low investment, not gonna get dirty too much, 70s boho cred) would help with the problem as they are the acoustic dampeners of people living in shoddily made apartment blocs. I can see plush carpets being a non starter, but a lot of apartment trends now are for noise fools using shelves of potted plants and runners.
posted by The Whelk at 10:43 PM on November 28, 2018 [15 favorites]
Another economic benefit of loud environments (this one well known to nightclub owners): people have to get closer to one another to make out what is being said. And that lets you fit more people in the door. In the case of a restaurant, an under-sized and cramped table will suddenly seem more acceptable if it is the only way you can get close enough to your companions to hear what everyone is saying. (And, for those customers who's hearing is still not up to the noise levels provided - those people will spend more time drinking - win win).
posted by rongorongo at 10:44 PM on November 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 10:44 PM on November 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
So there's this restaurant in my neighborhood that serves "pizza" that is like 10" (25cm) across, on some sort of buckwheat cracker crust, with toppings like kale and pencil shavings, often served both burned and soggy. It is filled with dumb hipsters and like all of the polished cement. We chewed up napkins to use as earplugs and it was better than our entrees. My ears were still ringing as their food gave me explosive diarrhea, blotting out some of that noise, so...yay?
posted by sexyrobot at 10:47 PM on November 28, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by sexyrobot at 10:47 PM on November 28, 2018 [29 favorites]
That being said I wonder how much hanging rugs on the wall...
Good restaurants, that are actually trying to keep noise levels reasonable, staple carpet underneath all the tables and chair seats.
posted by sexyrobot at 10:52 PM on November 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Good restaurants, that are actually trying to keep noise levels reasonable, staple carpet underneath all the tables and chair seats.
posted by sexyrobot at 10:52 PM on November 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's not at all in line with the hipster cement-and-steel image that the article (fairly!) conjures up, but a super old school, super popular family-friendly Italian place near us has acoustics so ear-shattering that on a couple of occasions sat next to a big party I've genuinely considered walking out, or even worse summoning the nerve to ask to be reseated. The ownership is such that I can't think this is out of cynical profit drive as much as that the mere consideration of such things would be ridiculous, effete frippery and there are far more important matters to attend, such as selecting which football match to have on the TV they can see from the bar.
It's so good and so affordable though. I probably don't need those frequencies anyway.
posted by ominous_paws at 11:39 PM on November 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's so good and so affordable though. I probably don't need those frequencies anyway.
posted by ominous_paws at 11:39 PM on November 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
They were sitting together at a restaurant, and loud music with a heavy beat poured out of a nearby speaker as they ate.
"It's a vicious circle," Sabina said. "People are going deaf because music is played louder and louder. But because they're going deaf, it has to be played louder still."
"Don't you like music?" Franz asked.
"No," said Sabina, and then added, "though in a different era..." She was thinking of the days of Johann Sebastian Bach, when music was like a rose blooming on a boundless snow-covered plain of silence.
Noise masked as music had pursued her since early childhood. During her years at the Academy of Fine Arts, students had been required to spend whole summer vacations at a youth camp. They lived in common quarters and worked together on a steelworks construction site. Music roared out of loudspeakers on the site from five in the morning to nine at night. She felt like crying, but the music was cheerful, and there was nowhere to hide, not in the latrine or under the bedclothes: everything was in range of the speakers. The music was like a pack of hounds that had been sicked on her.
After dinner, they went upstairs to their room and made love, and as Franz fell asleep his thoughts began to lose coherence. He recalled the noisy music at dinner and said to himself, "Noise has one advantage. It drowns out words." And suddenly he realized that all his life he had done nothing but talk, write, lecture, concoct sentences, search for formulations and amend them, so in the end no words were precise, their meanings were obliterated, their content lost, they turned into trash, chaff, dust, sand; prowling through his brain, tearing at his head, they were his insomnia, his illness. And what he yearned for at that moment, vaguely but with all his might, was unbounded music, absolute sound, a pleasant and happy all-encompassing, overpowering, window-rattling din to engulf, once and for all, the pain, the futility, the vanity of words. Music was the negation of sentences, music was the anti-word! He yearned for one long embrace with Sabina, yearned never to say another sentence, another word, to let his orgasm fuse with the orgiastic thunder of music. And lulled by that blissful imaginary uproar, he fell asleep.
― Milan Kundera, The Unbearable Lightness of Being
posted by alex_skazat at 11:57 PM on November 28, 2018 [23 favorites]
"It's a vicious circle," Sabina said. "People are going deaf because music is played louder and louder. But because they're going deaf, it has to be played louder still."
"Don't you like music?" Franz asked.
"No," said Sabina, and then added, "though in a different era..." She was thinking of the days of Johann Sebastian Bach, when music was like a rose blooming on a boundless snow-covered plain of silence.
Noise masked as music had pursued her since early childhood. During her years at the Academy of Fine Arts, students had been required to spend whole summer vacations at a youth camp. They lived in common quarters and worked together on a steelworks construction site. Music roared out of loudspeakers on the site from five in the morning to nine at night. She felt like crying, but the music was cheerful, and there was nowhere to hide, not in the latrine or under the bedclothes: everything was in range of the speakers. The music was like a pack of hounds that had been sicked on her.
After dinner, they went upstairs to their room and made love, and as Franz fell asleep his thoughts began to lose coherence. He recalled the noisy music at dinner and said to himself, "Noise has one advantage. It drowns out words." And suddenly he realized that all his life he had done nothing but talk, write, lecture, concoct sentences, search for formulations and amend them, so in the end no words were precise, their meanings were obliterated, their content lost, they turned into trash, chaff, dust, sand; prowling through his brain, tearing at his head, they were his insomnia, his illness. And what he yearned for at that moment, vaguely but with all his might, was unbounded music, absolute sound, a pleasant and happy all-encompassing, overpowering, window-rattling din to engulf, once and for all, the pain, the futility, the vanity of words. Music was the negation of sentences, music was the anti-word! He yearned for one long embrace with Sabina, yearned never to say another sentence, another word, to let his orgasm fuse with the orgiastic thunder of music. And lulled by that blissful imaginary uproar, he fell asleep.
― Milan Kundera, The Unbearable Lightness of Being
posted by alex_skazat at 11:57 PM on November 28, 2018 [23 favorites]
Were nightclubs themselves even always so loud? I've seen pictures from Studio 54 and earlier clubs like the Copacabana where people seem to be sitting not on top of each other and having conversations.
posted by smelendez at 11:58 PM on November 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by smelendez at 11:58 PM on November 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
Ugh, I went to a Five Guys in Glasgow a while back to see what all the metafilter fuss was about, and it was SO. LOUD. Painfully loud. It was unpleasant to be in there at all. I left before I was finished eating and never went back. I remember nothing about the food, just their shitty, overly loud music.
I also hate pubs where the music is too loud to talk. What's the point, if I can't hear my mates then we might as well just go to someone's house and drink much cheaper booze.
(Then again, I also left a wedding early once because they had a live band hooked up to big speakers in quite a small space. The sound was.... overwhelming. Like, a wall of sound just hitting you when you opened the door. We stayed for the first dance and then got the hell out of there because it was unbearable.)
posted by stillnocturnal at 1:02 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
I also hate pubs where the music is too loud to talk. What's the point, if I can't hear my mates then we might as well just go to someone's house and drink much cheaper booze.
(Then again, I also left a wedding early once because they had a live band hooked up to big speakers in quite a small space. The sound was.... overwhelming. Like, a wall of sound just hitting you when you opened the door. We stayed for the first dance and then got the hell out of there because it was unbearable.)
posted by stillnocturnal at 1:02 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
One of the best trends to hit restaurants is the proliferation of takeout/to-go.
In my area, even the snooty places are willing to box up a full a dinner and have it waiting at the hostess stand.
Online ordering makes the entire thing seamless.
Being no longer limited to crappy fast food or the same old sandwiches really opens up dining at home options.
Plus the music is not only a reasonable volume, but something I actually enjoy.
posted by madajb at 1:05 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
In my area, even the snooty places are willing to box up a full a dinner and have it waiting at the hostess stand.
Online ordering makes the entire thing seamless.
Being no longer limited to crappy fast food or the same old sandwiches really opens up dining at home options.
Plus the music is not only a reasonable volume, but something I actually enjoy.
posted by madajb at 1:05 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Something that's long been true about pubs (I remember working out the thing about: If it's loud, then people have to shout, then they get thirsty so they drink more, then they wake up the next morning with a hangover and a throat sore from shouting and figure "Hey, I got drunk and shouted a lot - I must have had a good time"), and remember a night in The Hermit's Cave in Camberwell, where they had no music (I think unamplified acoustic-only live players, sometimes) where a table of perhaps twenty people had a perfectly pleasant evening of conversation. Which might not seem like a night out for the ages, but it's so rare. It was around that time I formulated the conspiracy theory that that sort of thing is exactly what They want to stamp out, so they introduced noise polluters.
The one that gets my goat is at the gym, where at least half the users are wearing headphones or earphones, but they make sure to turn the shitty club music up so loud that we have to have our podcasts at full volume just to hear them. On a recent customer survey I pointed out that only some of the people who aren't wearing headphones actually want to listen to that music (sometimes I've not bothered as it's even more annoying to try to listen to something you can't hear through the shit-disco haze), and all the people who are don't actually want to hear it at all.
Recently volume levels have dropped, and it's a lot more pleasant. I doubt whether it's my doing, though perhaps enough of us complained that they did something. Or perhaps volume levels will shoot back up to Ministry of Sound volumes next time I go.
posted by Grangousier at 1:44 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
The one that gets my goat is at the gym, where at least half the users are wearing headphones or earphones, but they make sure to turn the shitty club music up so loud that we have to have our podcasts at full volume just to hear them. On a recent customer survey I pointed out that only some of the people who aren't wearing headphones actually want to listen to that music (sometimes I've not bothered as it's even more annoying to try to listen to something you can't hear through the shit-disco haze), and all the people who are don't actually want to hear it at all.
Recently volume levels have dropped, and it's a lot more pleasant. I doubt whether it's my doing, though perhaps enough of us complained that they did something. Or perhaps volume levels will shoot back up to Ministry of Sound volumes next time I go.
posted by Grangousier at 1:44 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
This is reminding me that one of the things I miss about living in Colorado is a restaurant chain called Tokyo Joe's, which serves fresh delicious healthy Asian fusion food.*
What I don't miss, though, is their decor, which consists largely of steel tables and chairs on concrete floors, metal light fixtures, and angular metal panels hanging from the ceiling that are perfectly situated to reflect sound everywhere through the rest of the room.
*Food that I would punch Bob Ross in the head for at this point. It's been years since I've been, and I still dream of their salmon salads some nights.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:07 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
What I don't miss, though, is their decor, which consists largely of steel tables and chairs on concrete floors, metal light fixtures, and angular metal panels hanging from the ceiling that are perfectly situated to reflect sound everywhere through the rest of the room.
*Food that I would punch Bob Ross in the head for at this point. It's been years since I've been, and I still dream of their salmon salads some nights.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:07 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
One thing I really miss about living in New Orleans is how many restaurants and bars had (excellent) live, unamplified, acoustic music playing. Now sure, a brass band doesn't need amplification to be deafening, but a string band is not necessarily. And either way, at least it was generally something worth listening to.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:47 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:47 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Sonic urine. So much sonic urine everywhere you go and not just restaurants. It is getting harder and harder to find islands of calm. What I hate has got to be the wrong music in use. I remember reading in Buford's book, Heat, how Mario Batali made sure his restaurants were blaring the favorite music of Ruth Reichl when she was the reviewer for the New York Times, in particular, Bob Marley. But really, I am getting old and can only handle so much club music blaring as I am looking at discount stand mixers (ah, clerk's choice in the store).
Weirdly, I think I would find it interesting if I was hearing a well-curated playlist of loveless marriages and lost love while buying domestic products. Yeah, I would totally be down for love's dregs and domestic despair buying my high powered, discount Sunbeam mixer.
posted by jadepearl at 2:54 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Weirdly, I think I would find it interesting if I was hearing a well-curated playlist of loveless marriages and lost love while buying domestic products. Yeah, I would totally be down for love's dregs and domestic despair buying my high powered, discount Sunbeam mixer.
posted by jadepearl at 2:54 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Just "No Children" by The Mountain Goats playing on endless repeat at 94dB in every Pottery Barn.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:25 AM on November 29, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:25 AM on November 29, 2018 [29 favorites]
I HOPE YOU DIE I HOPE WE BOTH DIE
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:28 AM on November 29, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:28 AM on November 29, 2018 [16 favorites]
Were nightclubs themselves even always so loud? I've seen pictures from Studio 54 and earlier clubs like the Copacabana where people seem to be sitting not on top of each other and having conversations.
The designers Ian Schrager Steve Rubell, who worked on Studio 54, do appear to have thought about the issue of user experience quite a lot (Schrager went to originate the concept of the Boutique Hotel ,apparently). Since the club was located in the former 1920s era Gallo Theater the inherent design of the building included a point of acoustic focus - the dance floor- as well as many quieter areas with sofas - where you see the pictures of the celebs. I'm going to speculate that the place, if it was like any other theatre - was full of soft surfaces designed to prevent acoustic reflection.
posted by rongorongo at 3:37 AM on November 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
The designers Ian Schrager Steve Rubell, who worked on Studio 54, do appear to have thought about the issue of user experience quite a lot (Schrager went to originate the concept of the Boutique Hotel ,apparently). Since the club was located in the former 1920s era Gallo Theater the inherent design of the building included a point of acoustic focus - the dance floor- as well as many quieter areas with sofas - where you see the pictures of the celebs. I'm going to speculate that the place, if it was like any other theatre - was full of soft surfaces designed to prevent acoustic reflection.
posted by rongorongo at 3:37 AM on November 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
some restaurateurs even make their establishments louder than necessary in an attempt to maximize profits.
Let's not overstate this - more often than not the issue is that restauranteurs just don't think about acoustics when planning a restaurant. The focus is on the look, the food, the service, and the marketing - acoustics is rarely on the startup radar, and it's definitely not done with some evil intent.
Acoustic control is expensive, and it often conflicts with design trends that eschew carpeting for stone/concrete/glass/big, open spaces. I don't enjoy restaurants and bars where I cannot comfortably enjoy normal conversation and I generally don't frequent them. A local diner chain recently redesigned their interiors and the net result was a more modern, open design - that is now so loud that I just don't enjoy it any longer.
posted by tgrundke at 4:03 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Let's not overstate this - more often than not the issue is that restauranteurs just don't think about acoustics when planning a restaurant. The focus is on the look, the food, the service, and the marketing - acoustics is rarely on the startup radar, and it's definitely not done with some evil intent.
Acoustic control is expensive, and it often conflicts with design trends that eschew carpeting for stone/concrete/glass/big, open spaces. I don't enjoy restaurants and bars where I cannot comfortably enjoy normal conversation and I generally don't frequent them. A local diner chain recently redesigned their interiors and the net result was a more modern, open design - that is now so loud that I just don't enjoy it any longer.
posted by tgrundke at 4:03 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
I have a particular problem with this, as my single-sided hearing loss prevents me from focusing in on someone's voice in a noisy environment. Since I don't drink any more, my incentive for hanging around in such spaces is slim to nil.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:28 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:28 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Age-ist pig that I am, I had assumed that restaurants were loud because the young people liked it that way.
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:01 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:01 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
A popular area brewer recently opened a large brewpub/distillery/eatery. A couple of my friends and I went to check it out. As soon as we walked into the place, we were assaulted by what seemed like the sound of jet engines revving for takeoff. It was merely the sound of all the other customers talking, with their voices ricocheting off the hard, industrial surfaces of the place. It was horrible. We're old, with old ears, and we thought it was wayyyy too loud. We couldn't hear each other.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:10 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 5:10 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I really feel for the workers. I can leave or just not go. They are already working in a pretty terrible industry with awful hours, a deep history of abuse and a tendency to hire legally unprotected workers. How they get away with the very open and public infliction of permanent hearing loss is completely beyond me.
posted by srboisvert at 5:17 AM on November 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 5:17 AM on November 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
young people liked it that way
I'm sure of this. Noise makes a place seem more exciting when you're young.
posted by bhnyc at 5:25 AM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm sure of this. Noise makes a place seem more exciting when you're young.
posted by bhnyc at 5:25 AM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
As part of their Masters' thesis, a friend of mine organised an experiment in which a group of about ten friends went out to eat at many (about 8? 10?) different branches of Pizza Express* across London and ate a meal while measuring sound levels, then rated each branch for food, service, atmosphere, etc. Then the Masters' student went back the next day while it was closed and took a load of acoustic measurements.
This was a tiny study** that needed better controls, but it was very suggestive that the main factor controlling how highly we rated the food and service was how easily we could hear each other and the waiter over the background noise. Apparently -- and I admit this is an inferential leap -- being able to have a nice time interacting with the friends we'd gone out with put us in a better mood to enjoy what the restaurant was offering.
On the other hand, years ago I met a guy who turned out to be a "DJ" at a trendy wine bar in central London. I asked him about this, and he explained that "over the course of the night the punters keep talking louder, so you need to turn up the music so they can hear it." I tried suggesting that he had the cause and effect the wrong way around there, but he wasn't open to exploring a universe in which hearing his music choices weren't the main reason why people were coming to a bar with their friends after work.
(It's important to admit my biases here: I like Old Geezers' Pubs, with minimal or no music where you can sit and chat with your friends. Contented pub dog and fireplace optional but encouraged. As such, I'll happily swallow any tortured reasoning that supports my preference. Presumably there are people that love awful noisy bars, and are out having a fabulous time at them instead of hanging out on a text-only website. Good for them.)
*I have no idea whether Pizza Express exists in other countries. Chain restaurants found all over the UK, serving (mostly) pizzas and pasta dishes in a reasonably nice restaurant setting for £15-20 a head. Think "students feeling flush" or "young professionals not pushing the boat out". Being a chain restaurant, the food, servers' training, and decor are basically identical between branches but the layout -- and therefore acoustic properties -- of the dining areas vary a lot depending on the building they happen to be in.
**Without wanting to malign Pizza Express, about eight visits over the course of a month is simultaneously too few for a proper study and Too Much Pizza Express.
posted by metaBugs at 5:42 AM on November 29, 2018 [25 favorites]
This was a tiny study** that needed better controls, but it was very suggestive that the main factor controlling how highly we rated the food and service was how easily we could hear each other and the waiter over the background noise. Apparently -- and I admit this is an inferential leap -- being able to have a nice time interacting with the friends we'd gone out with put us in a better mood to enjoy what the restaurant was offering.
On the other hand, years ago I met a guy who turned out to be a "DJ" at a trendy wine bar in central London. I asked him about this, and he explained that "over the course of the night the punters keep talking louder, so you need to turn up the music so they can hear it." I tried suggesting that he had the cause and effect the wrong way around there, but he wasn't open to exploring a universe in which hearing his music choices weren't the main reason why people were coming to a bar with their friends after work.
(It's important to admit my biases here: I like Old Geezers' Pubs, with minimal or no music where you can sit and chat with your friends. Contented pub dog and fireplace optional but encouraged. As such, I'll happily swallow any tortured reasoning that supports my preference. Presumably there are people that love awful noisy bars, and are out having a fabulous time at them instead of hanging out on a text-only website. Good for them.)
*I have no idea whether Pizza Express exists in other countries. Chain restaurants found all over the UK, serving (mostly) pizzas and pasta dishes in a reasonably nice restaurant setting for £15-20 a head. Think "students feeling flush" or "young professionals not pushing the boat out". Being a chain restaurant, the food, servers' training, and decor are basically identical between branches but the layout -- and therefore acoustic properties -- of the dining areas vary a lot depending on the building they happen to be in.
**Without wanting to malign Pizza Express, about eight visits over the course of a month is simultaneously too few for a proper study and Too Much Pizza Express.
posted by metaBugs at 5:42 AM on November 29, 2018 [25 favorites]
One of the things that got me hooked on watching Mad Men was all those scenes where people are in restaurants/bars having conversations. I realize such places in the 1960s were probably louder than what is shown in the show, but still, I dream, I dream.
posted by JanetLand at 5:43 AM on November 29, 2018
posted by JanetLand at 5:43 AM on November 29, 2018
Ugh, I haaate this trend. And it's become an increasing pain in the ass for work, too: I'm in academia, and A Meal With The Job Candidate/Speaker is a huge part of the campus visit. Lately it's become so difficult to try to find a restaurant in town that is both "nice" and a place where you can actually conduct the important interviewing/networking that you need to do. I've taken to suggesting the slightly struggling ethnic restaurants because a)they're awesome and could use the business but also because b)they tend to have outdated and thus quieter decor and c)because they're struggling they don't have a lot of people when we go so it's by default quieter.
posted by TwoStride at 6:12 AM on November 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 6:12 AM on November 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
Acoustic control is expensive, and it often conflicts with design trends that eschew carpeting for stone/concrete/glass/big, open spaces.
This is a problem in my kid’s school, believe it or not - a cavernous all-purpose room serves as the cafeteria, and there is zero sound damping save for a handful of college pennants sent in by alumni. The PTO is trying to raise money for acoustic tiling and the principal expects that push to take about two years. I think that’s comparable to what they spent fundraising for an entirely remodeled playground.
posted by eirias at 6:15 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is a problem in my kid’s school, believe it or not - a cavernous all-purpose room serves as the cafeteria, and there is zero sound damping save for a handful of college pennants sent in by alumni. The PTO is trying to raise money for acoustic tiling and the principal expects that push to take about two years. I think that’s comparable to what they spent fundraising for an entirely remodeled playground.
posted by eirias at 6:15 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
My experience seems to be a little like TwoStride’s. My job requires me to have frequent restaurant meals with folks in their 70s and 80s. Ambient noise is a real challenge and a small yet diverse number of local restaurants have adapted by employing a number of the approaches and techniques from the article (cloth tablecloths, lower ceilings, carpet, etc.). The quality of the food in such places is considerably better than it was just a few years ago, and there seems to be a small but viable niche for this kind of establishment. Older diners in my area do seem to have some financial clout that’s resulted in beneficial changes.
That said, fast casual restaurants really do predominate, especially for lunch, and anyone looking for the most interesting cuisine is still likely to be disappointed. I tried to warn a 90-year-old that the hot new Mexican place her friend had told her about, Chipotle, was neither quiet nor particularly exciting, but she just had to try it. One predictably disastrous meal later, I had a somewhat funny tale to tell, but the underlying truths remain: ambient noise levels in most restaurants are simply too high and the results for diners and employees are unpleasant and even hazardous.
posted by cheapskatebay at 6:18 AM on November 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
That said, fast casual restaurants really do predominate, especially for lunch, and anyone looking for the most interesting cuisine is still likely to be disappointed. I tried to warn a 90-year-old that the hot new Mexican place her friend had told her about, Chipotle, was neither quiet nor particularly exciting, but she just had to try it. One predictably disastrous meal later, I had a somewhat funny tale to tell, but the underlying truths remain: ambient noise levels in most restaurants are simply too high and the results for diners and employees are unpleasant and even hazardous.
posted by cheapskatebay at 6:18 AM on November 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
I was complaining about this trend in London 20 years ago. It's one reason I mostly eat in Chinese restaurants - they still have their soft furnishings and the music is much quieter.
Janetland: I'm old enough to remember going to restaurants in NYC in the 1960s, and I definitely do not remember having any trouble hearing table companions (my parents - and my mother loved shushing people she thought were speaking too loudly). At that time, a nice restaurant would have carpets, wall hangings, *and* tablecloths.
wg
posted by wendyg at 6:20 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Janetland: I'm old enough to remember going to restaurants in NYC in the 1960s, and I definitely do not remember having any trouble hearing table companions (my parents - and my mother loved shushing people she thought were speaking too loudly). At that time, a nice restaurant would have carpets, wall hangings, *and* tablecloths.
wg
posted by wendyg at 6:20 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
The focus is on the look, the food, the service, and the marketing - acoustics is rarely on the startup radar, and it's definitely not done with some evil intent.
IMO, pointing to acoustic design (or lack thereof) is looking at it from the wrong angle.
Restaurants now use music as part of the decor. Hell, Grant Achatz crowdsourced his playlist when designing Roister in Chicago. And I've eaten there*, and you definitely hear that playlist. No way around it.
And when a restaurant puts music into their design, you are going to hear it one way or another goddammit. So that creates a positive feedback loop. Diners try to talk over the music, music goes up, crowd gets louder to compensate, etc etc etc until everyone's ears are bleeding.
* the fried chicken is worth the bleeding, though.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:21 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
IMO, pointing to acoustic design (or lack thereof) is looking at it from the wrong angle.
Restaurants now use music as part of the decor. Hell, Grant Achatz crowdsourced his playlist when designing Roister in Chicago. And I've eaten there*, and you definitely hear that playlist. No way around it.
And when a restaurant puts music into their design, you are going to hear it one way or another goddammit. So that creates a positive feedback loop. Diners try to talk over the music, music goes up, crowd gets louder to compensate, etc etc etc until everyone's ears are bleeding.
* the fried chicken is worth the bleeding, though.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:21 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
The whole issue of "we need to have music playing because people expect it" is a good example of a self-licking lollipop that should be inspected more closely. I had a friendly argument with the proprietor of my local hardware store the other day which started by me noting that he was playing Christmas music before Thanksgiving and moved along to my noting that any music choice was not going to please at least half the customers. It was obviously completely outside the realm of possibility in his mind that anyone could not want music playing in a store. In spite of the fact that he was talking to one...
I think the only solution to the restaurant thing is to not go anyplace that's too loud. I have been informally boycotting the best fried chicken place in town because even though the food was fabulous, it was loud enough that it broke three small bones in my foot. Literally.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 6:22 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think the only solution to the restaurant thing is to not go anyplace that's too loud. I have been informally boycotting the best fried chicken place in town because even though the food was fabulous, it was loud enough that it broke three small bones in my foot. Literally.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 6:22 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
One reason older people struggle in loud restaurants and bars is because hearing deterioration impairs not just your overall ability to hear but also your ability to focus and filter your hearing. So as people age they feel they need to be louder to be heard because they can't properly hear themselves or others in environments with multiple competing noise sources.
It's also possible the earbud generation has significantly more accelerated hearing damage because they are putting speakers right into their ear canals. Then you have restaurant staff with permanently shifted hearing and fucked up sleep schedules controlling volume knobs.
Add in the article's points about minimalist restaurant design and unadorned wood walls mimicking the inside of a speaker with edge-lordy sensation seeking and you've got a perfect storm of cacophony.
Next click for me AARP registration.
posted by srboisvert at 6:26 AM on November 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
It's also possible the earbud generation has significantly more accelerated hearing damage because they are putting speakers right into their ear canals. Then you have restaurant staff with permanently shifted hearing and fucked up sleep schedules controlling volume knobs.
Add in the article's points about minimalist restaurant design and unadorned wood walls mimicking the inside of a speaker with edge-lordy sensation seeking and you've got a perfect storm of cacophony.
Next click for me AARP registration.
posted by srboisvert at 6:26 AM on November 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
The answer to “Should this restaurant have live music?” is “No.”
Always. No exceptions.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 6:27 AM on November 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
Always. No exceptions.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 6:27 AM on November 29, 2018 [11 favorites]
"And as many writers have noted, loud restaurants also encourage profitable dining behavior."
Yep, right up until you give up and stop going. So many places we just don't bother with anymore because it's just so loud. Worse, we've been at baby classes (mommy & me music & movement, toddler swimming) where the music is so loud we've wondered if our kids should be wearing those big headphones. Obviously we don't return to those.
After that one, I got a pair of earplugs to keep on my keychain.
Do tell where one finds such a magical object!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:31 AM on November 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yep, right up until you give up and stop going. So many places we just don't bother with anymore because it's just so loud. Worse, we've been at baby classes (mommy & me music & movement, toddler swimming) where the music is so loud we've wondered if our kids should be wearing those big headphones. Obviously we don't return to those.
After that one, I got a pair of earplugs to keep on my keychain.
Do tell where one finds such a magical object!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:31 AM on November 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
The merging of bars and good cuisine mentioned in the article is more of a factor than a renewed interest in modernist aesthetics, I suspect. The 2013 Grub Street link in the article is worth a read, too:
Most of the restaurants I write about these days aren’t restaurants at all in the classic sense...They’re noisy bars, built for sound, that happen to serve good, sometimes excellent food. The masters of the raucous bar-restaurant template—Ken Friedman at the Spotted Pig, Gabriel Stulman at Fedora and Montmartre—have built their cost-efficient empires by matching talented chefs with small, offbeat rooms to create a casual party atmosphere where it’s often difficult to hear yourself think.
One of my favorite restaurants in Raleigh is so loud that I now almost always just order to go. It's just so unpleasant to sit in that mess.
posted by mediareport at 6:31 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Most of the restaurants I write about these days aren’t restaurants at all in the classic sense...They’re noisy bars, built for sound, that happen to serve good, sometimes excellent food. The masters of the raucous bar-restaurant template—Ken Friedman at the Spotted Pig, Gabriel Stulman at Fedora and Montmartre—have built their cost-efficient empires by matching talented chefs with small, offbeat rooms to create a casual party atmosphere where it’s often difficult to hear yourself think.
One of my favorite restaurants in Raleigh is so loud that I now almost always just order to go. It's just so unpleasant to sit in that mess.
posted by mediareport at 6:31 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
A question. How many of us grumbling about this kind of thing actually say something to the restaurant?
I've just now realized I don't, really, and am thinking maybe I should ("gee, this is usually one of my favorite places but lately the music has just been way too loud and that's why I rarely come any more" or "gosh, I'd really rather not be seated directly under the speaker so I don't have to yell just to have a conversation").
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:06 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I've just now realized I don't, really, and am thinking maybe I should ("gee, this is usually one of my favorite places but lately the music has just been way too loud and that's why I rarely come any more" or "gosh, I'd really rather not be seated directly under the speaker so I don't have to yell just to have a conversation").
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:06 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh my god, I'm glad the "noisy restaurant" phenomenon is finally being addressed. There are a several restaurants in our town that hard surfaces everywhere and they get incredibly loud. We've been factoring noise levels more and more into our decisions where to eat.
And it's not just noisy voices... I've been at one chain restaurant (Cotton Patch in TX) where endless crashing of dishes is constantly spilling out of the kitchen. How can anyone running those places think that's acceptable?
At times I can't help wondering if this all dovetails with the stereotype of "noisy Americans". There's probably a large percentage of the population that is completely oblivious to noise (case in point, those people that leave their dogs in the back yard to bark 24/7), and these restaurants are run by some of those people as well as patronized regularly by them.
I think what would make an impact is to use review sites to draw attention to the noise issues. Yelp seems to be the only thing restaurants pay attention to these days.
posted by crapmatic at 7:10 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
And it's not just noisy voices... I've been at one chain restaurant (Cotton Patch in TX) where endless crashing of dishes is constantly spilling out of the kitchen. How can anyone running those places think that's acceptable?
At times I can't help wondering if this all dovetails with the stereotype of "noisy Americans". There's probably a large percentage of the population that is completely oblivious to noise (case in point, those people that leave their dogs in the back yard to bark 24/7), and these restaurants are run by some of those people as well as patronized regularly by them.
I think what would make an impact is to use review sites to draw attention to the noise issues. Yelp seems to be the only thing restaurants pay attention to these days.
posted by crapmatic at 7:10 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
young people liked it that way
I'm sure of this.
Noise makes a place seem more exciting when you're young.
I also think there’s an element of social discomfort with the intimacy of actually talking to the people you’re with that is likely to be more prevalent among the 20-somethings who do most of the profitable drinking. So. I mean, I’m happy to let them have their drunken sonic hellholes, but “old” people need entertainment, too.
Personally I have auditory issues that have always made this, uh, difficult. Painful and difficult. And probably it’s gonna get worse as I get older. So I would kill for an app that told me the ambient decibel level or just rated the loudness/ability to actually talk to people of NYC restaurants. God that would make me so, so happy.
Also? It’s not that hard to clean carpet under tables and chairs or to clean wall rugs. C’mon.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:13 AM on November 29, 2018
I'm sure of this.
Noise makes a place seem more exciting when you're young.
I also think there’s an element of social discomfort with the intimacy of actually talking to the people you’re with that is likely to be more prevalent among the 20-somethings who do most of the profitable drinking. So. I mean, I’m happy to let them have their drunken sonic hellholes, but “old” people need entertainment, too.
Personally I have auditory issues that have always made this, uh, difficult. Painful and difficult. And probably it’s gonna get worse as I get older. So I would kill for an app that told me the ambient decibel level or just rated the loudness/ability to actually talk to people of NYC restaurants. God that would make me so, so happy.
Also? It’s not that hard to clean carpet under tables and chairs or to clean wall rugs. C’mon.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:13 AM on November 29, 2018
A question. How many of us grumbling about this kind of thing actually say something to the restaurant?
I went to a sockhop for elementary school children where the music was too loud, asked them to turn it down and they said "no". Trust me, in any restaurant, someone has asked them to turn their music down and their A/C either up or down (depending) and that request mostly likely fell on deaf ears.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:13 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
I went to a sockhop for elementary school children where the music was too loud, asked them to turn it down and they said "no". Trust me, in any restaurant, someone has asked them to turn their music down and their A/C either up or down (depending) and that request mostly likely fell on deaf ears.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:13 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
We've had this conversation before, right? My solution is to mostly stop going out. I live in San Francisco and most of the nicer restaurants are just intolerable. When I'm traveling in Europe I'm always pleased at how some places can be not so loud, even a city as crowded as Paris. Europeans understand the difference between inside voice and outside voice. And this hideous trend towards loud places hasn't totally taken over.
This little video of a flaming novelty cocktail made its way around Reddit last week. What's fascinating is the meter mounted on a pole. A permanent noise meter showing decibels updating once a second. It's a restaurant somewhere in Asia and the story was the restaurant would have to shut down if it got over 80 dB. No idea if it's really true.
The article mentioned the IHearU app for diners to measure sound levels and report them to a rating website. There's another older app like that, SoundPrint. Neither seem to have enough users to be particularly useful though.
posted by Nelson at 7:19 AM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
This little video of a flaming novelty cocktail made its way around Reddit last week. What's fascinating is the meter mounted on a pole. A permanent noise meter showing decibels updating once a second. It's a restaurant somewhere in Asia and the story was the restaurant would have to shut down if it got over 80 dB. No idea if it's really true.
The article mentioned the IHearU app for diners to measure sound levels and report them to a rating website. There's another older app like that, SoundPrint. Neither seem to have enough users to be particularly useful though.
posted by Nelson at 7:19 AM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Trust me, in any restaurant, someone has asked them to turn their music down and their A/C either up or down (depending) and that request mostly likely fell on deaf ears.
I'm not suggesting that only one person alone will win the war. I'm saying that maybe multiple such requests would cause them to reconsider.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:32 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm not suggesting that only one person alone will win the war. I'm saying that maybe multiple such requests would cause them to reconsider.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:32 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Something that can also contribute to overall noise is when a group of folks in a restaurant have been drinking longer - my experience is that as people drink more, they start to talk more loudly. So party A starts being loud, and party B (next to them) has to speak up to be heard of the noise of party A, and party C ALSO has to speak up because of party A and B - pretty soon the whole restaurant is yelling at each other. Finally, party A leaves and it's like a huge sigh of relief as the noise level immediately drops.
posted by dbmcd at 7:32 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by dbmcd at 7:32 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
(Also, I don't know if that pun about "deaf ears" was intentional but it fits)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:32 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:32 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yeah, talking to the management is a great idea. Another way to grab their attention - a yelp/TripAdvisor/Google review. Or all three!
posted by storybored at 7:40 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by storybored at 7:40 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
After that one, I got a pair of earplugs to keep on my keychain.
These come in a keychain pouch. They are flanged plugs so they tend to decrease the level across the frequency spectrum, so you don't get so much of that bass-heavy, muffled sound you get with normal foam plugs. They're etymotic (made by the guy who invented the in-ear earphone), and they are very effective for the price.
I'm not personally convinced that phone meters are as good as dedicated models BUT I want to encourage you to rat them out to OSHA.
They're actually not bad. Within a few dB. Wouldn't calibrate your lab equipment with them, but they will give you a perfectly good idea.
Of course, OSHA won't do anything, which is so shitty, but OSHA enforcement was basically completely defunded during the Regan era, and even huge industrial environments are poorly regulated. We should push for more recognition that sound levels as a major health risk has been leading to a huge epidemic for decades, that is only getting worse. We see more and more hearing loss in younger and younger people.
I've made many comments on this topic here before. Big, hip, concrete, loud restaurants and bars are damaging your hearing, particularly if you work in one. It is no coincidence that the more time you spend in noisy environments, the harder it becomes to hear in noisy situations. You are getting "hidden hearing loss," which may not show up on a normal hearing test for years or decades.
A good rule of thumb is that 85 dB is safe for 8 hours. For every 3 dB increase, your safe time is cut in half. If you do the math, you'll see how quickly your safe exposure time becomes 0. If you don't have a sound level meter handy, if you have to raise your voice over a normal level to be heard an arm length's away, it's over 85 dB.
If it's too loud, do one of 3 things:
1. Leave, if you can.
2. If you can't, turn down the volume or increase the distance between you and the noise.
3. If you can't do that, wear hearing protection.
Hearing aids are amazing in many ways, but you want to avoid them if you can. Fight back if you can. Protect yourself when you can't.
Sincerely,
An Audiologist
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:40 AM on November 29, 2018 [60 favorites]
These come in a keychain pouch. They are flanged plugs so they tend to decrease the level across the frequency spectrum, so you don't get so much of that bass-heavy, muffled sound you get with normal foam plugs. They're etymotic (made by the guy who invented the in-ear earphone), and they are very effective for the price.
I'm not personally convinced that phone meters are as good as dedicated models BUT I want to encourage you to rat them out to OSHA.
They're actually not bad. Within a few dB. Wouldn't calibrate your lab equipment with them, but they will give you a perfectly good idea.
Of course, OSHA won't do anything, which is so shitty, but OSHA enforcement was basically completely defunded during the Regan era, and even huge industrial environments are poorly regulated. We should push for more recognition that sound levels as a major health risk has been leading to a huge epidemic for decades, that is only getting worse. We see more and more hearing loss in younger and younger people.
I've made many comments on this topic here before. Big, hip, concrete, loud restaurants and bars are damaging your hearing, particularly if you work in one. It is no coincidence that the more time you spend in noisy environments, the harder it becomes to hear in noisy situations. You are getting "hidden hearing loss," which may not show up on a normal hearing test for years or decades.
A good rule of thumb is that 85 dB is safe for 8 hours. For every 3 dB increase, your safe time is cut in half. If you do the math, you'll see how quickly your safe exposure time becomes 0. If you don't have a sound level meter handy, if you have to raise your voice over a normal level to be heard an arm length's away, it's over 85 dB.
If it's too loud, do one of 3 things:
1. Leave, if you can.
2. If you can't, turn down the volume or increase the distance between you and the noise.
3. If you can't do that, wear hearing protection.
Hearing aids are amazing in many ways, but you want to avoid them if you can. Fight back if you can. Protect yourself when you can't.
Sincerely,
An Audiologist
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:40 AM on November 29, 2018 [60 favorites]
Also? It’s not that hard to clean carpet under tables and chairs or to clean wall rugs. C’mon.
On one hand, yeah sure but in the other hand ....food service basically doesn’t make money, anything that can widen the profit margin a fraction is going to be used, creating this nighremare feedback loop/race to the bottom.
posted by The Whelk at 7:41 AM on November 29, 2018
On one hand, yeah sure but in the other hand ....food service basically doesn’t make money, anything that can widen the profit margin a fraction is going to be used, creating this nighremare feedback loop/race to the bottom.
posted by The Whelk at 7:41 AM on November 29, 2018
it's not a coincidence that some of the men responsible for this trend (looking at you, Ken Friedman and John Besh and Mario Batali, but I'm sure there's others, the industry's rife with them) are abusive SOBs. Just a data point.
posted by arkhangel at 7:43 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by arkhangel at 7:43 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
cut the set short and/or unplug the damn amp
they make those things with volume controls now, even
posted by thelonius at 7:49 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
they make those things with volume controls now, even
posted by thelonius at 7:49 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
So party A starts being loud, and party B (next to them) has to speak up to be heard of the noise of party A, and party C ALSO has to speak up because of party A and B
over the course of the night the punters keep talking louder, so you need to turn up the music so they can hear it.
The Lombard Effect is a reflex, deeply evolutionarily embedded, and compounds on itself.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:51 AM on November 29, 2018
over the course of the night the punters keep talking louder, so you need to turn up the music so they can hear it.
The Lombard Effect is a reflex, deeply evolutionarily embedded, and compounds on itself.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:51 AM on November 29, 2018
Maybe it's time to start promoting a maximal plush aesthetic. Out with the exposed brick, subway tile, and bare wood; in with the high-pile carpet, wool tablecloths, and pre-Raphaelite tapestries.
posted by Iridic at 7:54 AM on November 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Iridic at 7:54 AM on November 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Is the Burp Castle in New York City still open? A haven for those who enjoy a drink and quiet conversation. And getting shushed by a bartender in monk's robes if you raise your voice too much. Wish we had one here in Austin.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 7:54 AM on November 29, 2018
posted by lefty lucky cat at 7:54 AM on November 29, 2018
(And don't even get me started on uncomfortable high-stool seating...)
I was out at dinner with the in-laws a few months ago, and when my petite mother-in-law stood up from her chair she got about three inches shorter. It was brilliant.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:57 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was out at dinner with the in-laws a few months ago, and when my petite mother-in-law stood up from her chair she got about three inches shorter. It was brilliant.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:57 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
high-stool seating
I'd leading a one-woman boycott of the hipster pub here with only high stool seating and no purse hooks.
posted by TwoStride at 8:00 AM on November 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
I'd leading a one-woman boycott of the hipster pub here with only high stool seating and no purse hooks.
posted by TwoStride at 8:00 AM on November 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
As Flight Attendants brought us safety from cigarette smoke in public places, may the service industry unions bring us safety from noise everywhere.
Is there some shrine I can build or offering (or cash money donation) I can make to make this happen?
posted by crush at 8:04 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Is there some shrine I can build or offering (or cash money donation) I can make to make this happen?
posted by crush at 8:04 AM on November 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
There was a Twenty Thousand Hertz podcast that talked about music in restaurants and other public commercial spaces. It's worth listening to; they interview some of the people responsible for inventing and popularizing Muzak, among other things. I listened to it on a road trip with some friends who work in the foodservice industry and it led to a lively discussion.
While it's possible that some restaurateurs believe that turning the volume up increases profits, the data doesn't support this. In short, if a restaurant owner is turning up the music to try and make money, they're dumb. The data shows pretty clearly that the amount of money people spend is roughly proportional to the amount of time they spend at the table, after an initial "ante up" / minimum spend that's defined by the cost of the meal. Most people aren't going to sit around, not purchasing anything, at a restaurant table, after the meal. It's just not something that's socially acceptable in restaurants in the US. (Which isn't to say that it doesn't happen, but it's something that a good FOH person or even a good waiter can generally resolve, if it gets really excessive.) But the bottom line is that if you're causing people to spend less time in your restaurant, you are getting less money out of them. And in particular, you're getting less of some high-profit items like coffee and dessert.
For most restaurants, the nightmare customer is someone who comes in and just orders an entree, eats it, and leaves. The profit margin on entrees, depending on the type of food, is typically lower than almost anything else on the menu. (Restaurants know that customers care about the cost of the entree, so they have to keep it reasonable; the perception of good value is all about the entree pricing, basically. This is especially true at steak-and-chop type places. Their food cost on entrees is super high.) The exception might be places like pizza or taco joints, where the entrees just don't cost that much—maybe the salads or some appetizers are less profitable there than the mains.
About the only scenario where it makes sense to try and push customers out the door quickly, sacrificing those high-profit end-of-meal items they might otherwise purchase due to the noise, would be if you have a line of people waiting and could conceivably sell more meals overall that way. But I don't think this is true for most restaurants in the US, and definitely not for some of the casual places where super-loud music is endemic. (Sunday brunch at a hipster all-you-can-drink mimosas place? Sure, there you want people to move the fuck along once you've gotten the flat fee out of them.) But I think those are more the exception than the rule.
Maybe the loud music is in some sense an aspirational thing on the part of restaurant owners? They know it's something that very popular places (with a line of would-be customers out the door) do, so they just cargo-cult it and think it's somehow part of the "formula"...?
The alternative theory some of my friends had, and even admitted to, was that the staff might turn the music up themselves, both to keep themselves energized, to minimize conversation with customers, and to move customers along. The staff isn't necessarily incentivized the same way the restaurateur is, at least not to the same extent; moving people along so you don't have to deal with them might be worth the slight loss in tips. And in coffee shops and fast-casual where there's basically no tipping, there's zero reason not to crank it. Except hearing damage, of course.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:18 AM on November 29, 2018 [15 favorites]
While it's possible that some restaurateurs believe that turning the volume up increases profits, the data doesn't support this. In short, if a restaurant owner is turning up the music to try and make money, they're dumb. The data shows pretty clearly that the amount of money people spend is roughly proportional to the amount of time they spend at the table, after an initial "ante up" / minimum spend that's defined by the cost of the meal. Most people aren't going to sit around, not purchasing anything, at a restaurant table, after the meal. It's just not something that's socially acceptable in restaurants in the US. (Which isn't to say that it doesn't happen, but it's something that a good FOH person or even a good waiter can generally resolve, if it gets really excessive.) But the bottom line is that if you're causing people to spend less time in your restaurant, you are getting less money out of them. And in particular, you're getting less of some high-profit items like coffee and dessert.
For most restaurants, the nightmare customer is someone who comes in and just orders an entree, eats it, and leaves. The profit margin on entrees, depending on the type of food, is typically lower than almost anything else on the menu. (Restaurants know that customers care about the cost of the entree, so they have to keep it reasonable; the perception of good value is all about the entree pricing, basically. This is especially true at steak-and-chop type places. Their food cost on entrees is super high.) The exception might be places like pizza or taco joints, where the entrees just don't cost that much—maybe the salads or some appetizers are less profitable there than the mains.
About the only scenario where it makes sense to try and push customers out the door quickly, sacrificing those high-profit end-of-meal items they might otherwise purchase due to the noise, would be if you have a line of people waiting and could conceivably sell more meals overall that way. But I don't think this is true for most restaurants in the US, and definitely not for some of the casual places where super-loud music is endemic. (Sunday brunch at a hipster all-you-can-drink mimosas place? Sure, there you want people to move the fuck along once you've gotten the flat fee out of them.) But I think those are more the exception than the rule.
Maybe the loud music is in some sense an aspirational thing on the part of restaurant owners? They know it's something that very popular places (with a line of would-be customers out the door) do, so they just cargo-cult it and think it's somehow part of the "formula"...?
The alternative theory some of my friends had, and even admitted to, was that the staff might turn the music up themselves, both to keep themselves energized, to minimize conversation with customers, and to move customers along. The staff isn't necessarily incentivized the same way the restaurateur is, at least not to the same extent; moving people along so you don't have to deal with them might be worth the slight loss in tips. And in coffee shops and fast-casual where there's basically no tipping, there's zero reason not to crank it. Except hearing damage, of course.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:18 AM on November 29, 2018 [15 favorites]
Witchen, I believe you that it was too loud, but unplugging the amp would have made it an acoustic cello performance. If she was going for electric cello, the amp was necessary. Those two things are different performances. That doesn't mean it shouldn't have been turned way down.
posted by agregoli at 8:18 AM on November 29, 2018
posted by agregoli at 8:18 AM on November 29, 2018
> How many of us grumbling about this kind of thing actually say something to the restaurant?
> ...maybe multiple such requests would cause them to reconsider.
Well hello there - Mumbai, India checking in. I have been successful exactly once, when I made five people in our group ask the manager one by one to turn down the volume till he was frazzled enough to comply.
posted by tirutiru at 8:23 AM on November 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
> ...maybe multiple such requests would cause them to reconsider.
Well hello there - Mumbai, India checking in. I have been successful exactly once, when I made five people in our group ask the manager one by one to turn down the volume till he was frazzled enough to comply.
posted by tirutiru at 8:23 AM on November 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
A few years ago when I was living in New York, a lot of restaurants seemingly aiming at aging millennials decided to start playing '90s hip hop at very loud volumes.
This is possibly the worst music to have a conversation over. It's fast-paced, verbally engrossing and interspersed with distracting samples.
posted by smelendez at 8:37 AM on November 29, 2018
This is possibly the worst music to have a conversation over. It's fast-paced, verbally engrossing and interspersed with distracting samples.
posted by smelendez at 8:37 AM on November 29, 2018
But the bottom line is that if you're causing people to spend less time in your restaurant, you are getting less money out of them. And in particular, you're getting less of some high-profit items like coffee and dessert.
They may believe they're making more profit in full-meal turnover than they would from dessert/extras. Especially since so many of them now have free-refill sodas and coffees; they may want a new crowd at the table to buy another round of pure-profit drinks.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:40 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
They may believe they're making more profit in full-meal turnover than they would from dessert/extras. Especially since so many of them now have free-refill sodas and coffees; they may want a new crowd at the table to buy another round of pure-profit drinks.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:40 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
How many of us grumbling about this kind of thing actually say something to the restaurant?
Eh, there's a value calculation at work that makes me less likely to complain at a fave spot. I like being a regular, and if the person at the bar handing over my to-go order ever asks why I don't eat in anymore, I'll be happy to share my reasons. But I'm not about to be Yet Another Complaining Customer at a place I like, so I'll just keep getting my food to go.
posted by mediareport at 8:56 AM on November 29, 2018
Eh, there's a value calculation at work that makes me less likely to complain at a fave spot. I like being a regular, and if the person at the bar handing over my to-go order ever asks why I don't eat in anymore, I'll be happy to share my reasons. But I'm not about to be Yet Another Complaining Customer at a place I like, so I'll just keep getting my food to go.
posted by mediareport at 8:56 AM on November 29, 2018
I'm in Vegas right now for the AWS:Reinvent conference, and can confirm that every goddamn place in this city is too loud.
posted by JohnFromGR at 9:01 AM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by JohnFromGR at 9:01 AM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Exactly that - the extra half hour plus of having people hang around over coffee and dessert isn't worth the lost time another party could sitting and ordering mains, at the expense of the extra manpower, man hours, expertise and equipment needed to make it happen.
posted by ominous_paws at 9:07 AM on November 29, 2018
posted by ominous_paws at 9:07 AM on November 29, 2018
How many of us grumbling about this kind of thing actually say something to the restaurant?
My family walked out of a place after we'd been seated because of how loud it was and told them the reason. They were blaring music at dance-club levels, with an actual DJ, at 7:00 p.m. They're trying to combine a burger joint with a hipster bar, despite being in a shopping mall in Wellington, FL, which must have about the lowest number of hipsters per capita of, well, anywhere. Between the music and the $17 burgers, I don't foresee a bright future for them.
posted by Daily Alice at 9:07 AM on November 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
My family walked out of a place after we'd been seated because of how loud it was and told them the reason. They were blaring music at dance-club levels, with an actual DJ, at 7:00 p.m. They're trying to combine a burger joint with a hipster bar, despite being in a shopping mall in Wellington, FL, which must have about the lowest number of hipsters per capita of, well, anywhere. Between the music and the $17 burgers, I don't foresee a bright future for them.
posted by Daily Alice at 9:07 AM on November 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
These come in a keychain pouch. They are flanged plugs so they tend to decrease the level across the frequency spectrum, so you don't get so much of that bass-heavy, muffled sound you get with normal foam plugs.
Seconding Lutoslawski's recommendation. I've used these for years, and while it's not exactly the same as unfettered listening it's pretty darn good. I find that I can hear my co-conversationalists better while wearing these in a noisy environment. Well worth the money.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:25 AM on November 29, 2018
Seconding Lutoslawski's recommendation. I've used these for years, and while it's not exactly the same as unfettered listening it's pretty darn good. I find that I can hear my co-conversationalists better while wearing these in a noisy environment. Well worth the money.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:25 AM on November 29, 2018
If she was going for electric cello, the amp was necessary....That doesn't mean it shouldn't have been turned way down.
I'm kind of wondering if she had come under the influence of a guitar player who promulgated the idea that "tone" comes only from a cranked tube amp. That is pretty wildly inappropriate for an electric cello, of course, which probably does best through some kind of boutique solid state amp like an Acoustic Image.
posted by thelonius at 9:28 AM on November 29, 2018
I'm kind of wondering if she had come under the influence of a guitar player who promulgated the idea that "tone" comes only from a cranked tube amp. That is pretty wildly inappropriate for an electric cello, of course, which probably does best through some kind of boutique solid state amp like an Acoustic Image.
posted by thelonius at 9:28 AM on November 29, 2018
to minimize conversation with customers
This is an angle I had never considered, and is brilliant (and also a grim commentary on life). I'd have done the same, if I'd been smarter (and in control of volumes) back when I did food service.
posted by aramaic at 9:28 AM on November 29, 2018
This is an angle I had never considered, and is brilliant (and also a grim commentary on life). I'd have done the same, if I'd been smarter (and in control of volumes) back when I did food service.
posted by aramaic at 9:28 AM on November 29, 2018
I'm more likely to thank the manager at a restaurant that is pleasant with regard to ambient noise levels and background music (I am a person who finds all background music offensive. If I did not chose to be listening to it--I don't want to hear it. We all of us process stimuli differently)
In my experience, complaining about loud music does not change it, but praising pleasant environments feels good.
posted by crush at 9:29 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
In my experience, complaining about loud music does not change it, but praising pleasant environments feels good.
posted by crush at 9:29 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have tinnitus and hyperacusis (caused by antibiotics), both of which are exacerbated by loud environments. It's crucial that I protect what is left of my hearing. I live in a very touristy, foodie-type town, with lots of Delicious Foods in Deafening Environments within reach, but my favorite place to eat is my very own crib or a friend's place. Food is just as good (if not better), less expensive, I'm way more comfortable, and I can actually have a conversation worth hearing. Take-out ain't a bad option, either.
posted by Bob Regular at 9:29 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Bob Regular at 9:29 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
young people liked it that way
I'm sure of this.
Noise makes a place seem more exciting when you're young.
I also think there’s an element of social discomfort with the intimacy of actually talking to the people you’re with that is likely to be more prevalent among the 20-somethings who do most of the profitable drinking. So. I mean, I’m happy to let them have their drunken sonic hellholes, but “old” people need entertainment, too.
Relieved not to be the ONLY age-ist pig here.
How many of us grumbling about this kind of thing actually say something to the restaurant?
I don't because I assume I'm the wrong demographic (i.e. age) to have an opinion. How ever my wife fearlessly complains and almost always gets them to turn it down.
posted by Obscure Reference at 9:33 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm sure of this.
Noise makes a place seem more exciting when you're young.
I also think there’s an element of social discomfort with the intimacy of actually talking to the people you’re with that is likely to be more prevalent among the 20-somethings who do most of the profitable drinking. So. I mean, I’m happy to let them have their drunken sonic hellholes, but “old” people need entertainment, too.
Relieved not to be the ONLY age-ist pig here.
How many of us grumbling about this kind of thing actually say something to the restaurant?
I don't because I assume I'm the wrong demographic (i.e. age) to have an opinion. How ever my wife fearlessly complains and almost always gets them to turn it down.
posted by Obscure Reference at 9:33 AM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh man, I feel this. My hearing has always been kinda crap, and loud restaurant environments are Not Fun. Bars are much, much worse, although this is less of a problem, because Dr Bored For Science doesn't drink, and therefore doesn't like hanging out in loud bars, which means we don't.
I've threatened to buy a damn ear trumpet for years now. Anyone know of hipsters making them?
posted by Making You Bored For Science at 9:56 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've threatened to buy a damn ear trumpet for years now. Anyone know of hipsters making them?
posted by Making You Bored For Science at 9:56 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
To all the olds blaming it on the youths, I am a young person who has almost completely stopped eating out because of how noisy and unpleasant restaurants in my price range are and I know many young people who are similar.
posted by congen at 10:03 AM on November 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by congen at 10:03 AM on November 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
Can we talk about downtowns using outdoor speakers to bombard people walking along sidewalks with four decades of Top 40 nonsense? The downtown near my office has switched over to Christmas music, so now I want nothing more than to track down the people who made this decision and follow them around Lloyd Dobler-style (but blasting, like, Maggot Brain) everywhere they go.
posted by palindromic at 10:06 AM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by palindromic at 10:06 AM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
(And don't even get me started on uncomfortable high-stool seating...)
My mom is in her mid-70s and she's had both hips replaced. Those stools make me so mad, because she just can't hop up there, stupid hipster restaurant with very little other seating!
My as long as we're pet peeving - I searched the original article and all the posts here for the word "television." UGH, televisions in restaurants are the worst! And are definitely adding to the general noise level.
I did ask for a TV to be turned down in a place my husband go a lot, where they know us by name, and the waitress said, "Well you are sitting right under it," and I tried not to grind my teeth too much, and smiled and said, "Well, nevertheless, we'd like to have a conversation."
It's another vote in favor of eating mostly in ethnic restaurants - not nearly as many TVs in the Mexican, Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese, Ethiopian, and so on, places we frequent as the American fast casual bistro or even fancier sit-down places,
posted by Squeak Attack at 10:24 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
My mom is in her mid-70s and she's had both hips replaced. Those stools make me so mad, because she just can't hop up there, stupid hipster restaurant with very little other seating!
My as long as we're pet peeving - I searched the original article and all the posts here for the word "television." UGH, televisions in restaurants are the worst! And are definitely adding to the general noise level.
I did ask for a TV to be turned down in a place my husband go a lot, where they know us by name, and the waitress said, "Well you are sitting right under it," and I tried not to grind my teeth too much, and smiled and said, "Well, nevertheless, we'd like to have a conversation."
It's another vote in favor of eating mostly in ethnic restaurants - not nearly as many TVs in the Mexican, Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese, Ethiopian, and so on, places we frequent as the American fast casual bistro or even fancier sit-down places,
posted by Squeak Attack at 10:24 AM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Lutoslawski, thank you for the paper showing the accuracy of smartphone sound meter apps! (My just-downloaded SPLnFFT and I are gonna be good friends.) A combination of hearing loss and distaste for loudness in general make it really hard for me to enjoy myself going out to eat here in Chicago. Which is a shame. I enjoy going out to eat! But I love being able to follow a conversation even more.
I'm now super excited to go out to eat at a whole lot of places, measure noise levels, and - should they confirm my own experience - write one of them opinion letters directed to restaurant managers to tone it down, please, I promise I'll spend more money out if you do
I am the oldest 31-year-old ever
posted by nicodine at 10:25 AM on November 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'm now super excited to go out to eat at a whole lot of places, measure noise levels, and - should they confirm my own experience - write one of them opinion letters directed to restaurant managers to tone it down, please, I promise I'll spend more money out if you do
I am the oldest 31-year-old ever
posted by nicodine at 10:25 AM on November 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
I don't eat beef often, but when I do, I like to go out for a steak. I did so yesterday and asked for the music to be turned down. The waitress said she would "see if she could". And the volume did decrease. I am also a person who eats at ethnic restaurants because they tend to be quieter.
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 10:28 AM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 10:28 AM on November 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also, can we talk about food halls?
They're acoustically horrible and also very stressful to navigate because there are aggressive Type A people striding in every conceivable direction to find the perfect stall or meet their friend who wandered off to the fusion taco stand.
posted by smelendez at 10:36 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
They're acoustically horrible and also very stressful to navigate because there are aggressive Type A people striding in every conceivable direction to find the perfect stall or meet their friend who wandered off to the fusion taco stand.
posted by smelendez at 10:36 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Here is an interesting article - aimed at restaurant owners - which asks what research on music in restaurants can tell them.. In it, we learn that playing jazz to the clientele (but only to the non-affluent clientele) raises their average spent by 27% versus (the biggest uplift of several genres). On the other hand, owners should note that complaints about noise levels are the second most common after service.
That size of potential uplift in spend is going to catch the attention of any owner. However, I think there is also an issue of ego at play however: the ego is tied up in the musical taste of the owner, the staff member who put together a playlist, the company that did so, the DJ in the corner, and so on. All of these options weigh on the side of music rather than than silence (or conversation): and they slide in the direction of music which is loud enough to be heard and noticed.
posted by rongorongo at 11:17 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
That size of potential uplift in spend is going to catch the attention of any owner. However, I think there is also an issue of ego at play however: the ego is tied up in the musical taste of the owner, the staff member who put together a playlist, the company that did so, the DJ in the corner, and so on. All of these options weigh on the side of music rather than than silence (or conversation): and they slide in the direction of music which is loud enough to be heard and noticed.
posted by rongorongo at 11:17 AM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was recently at a community poetry reading where one of the performers was going to play electric cello....
Amps are extremely directional, and one common cause of painfully-loud-guitarist-syndrome is that they set their amp down on the floor pointed at their ankles. It can simultaneously sound reasonable to them and painful to someone across the room.
posted by bfields at 11:23 AM on November 29, 2018
Amps are extremely directional, and one common cause of painfully-loud-guitarist-syndrome is that they set their amp down on the floor pointed at their ankles. It can simultaneously sound reasonable to them and painful to someone across the room.
posted by bfields at 11:23 AM on November 29, 2018
Regarding keychain earplugs, I have the EarPeace HD earplugs and am pretty satisfied with them. They come with two different filters that can be swapped out, one for lower-noise situations and one for higher-noise situations.
posted by Lexica at 12:20 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Lexica at 12:20 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's possible that the rise in take-out options is part of what encourages restaurants to be noisy. They may be thinking, "people who like the music will eat here; people who don't, will order to go. Double the orders for us; win-win!"
So their reaction to "plz turn down the volume" may be, "if you don't like it, I can pack the food to go." Because for them, the best customers are people who buy food and don't require server time or table cleaning, and who won't complain that something isn't done right and send it back.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:23 PM on November 29, 2018
So their reaction to "plz turn down the volume" may be, "if you don't like it, I can pack the food to go." Because for them, the best customers are people who buy food and don't require server time or table cleaning, and who won't complain that something isn't done right and send it back.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:23 PM on November 29, 2018
A while back I went to a coffee shop in Louisville, part of a small local chain, to meet a friend for a chat. It was the middle of the afternoon, and they weren’t busy at all, but the music was so loud it wasn’t possible to carry on a conversation. When my friend showed up, we placed our orders and I asked if the music could be turned down a bit. With a smile, the person at the counter said “no.”
It wasn’t until after that one and only visit I found out their slogan is "Hot Coffee, Fresh Cookies, Loud Music, No Decaf."
In my opinion that’s counter to the atmosphere you look for in a coffee shop, but since it doesn’t seem to hurt their business I can only vote with my feet.
posted by SteveInMaine at 1:10 PM on November 29, 2018
It wasn’t until after that one and only visit I found out their slogan is "Hot Coffee, Fresh Cookies, Loud Music, No Decaf."
In my opinion that’s counter to the atmosphere you look for in a coffee shop, but since it doesn’t seem to hurt their business I can only vote with my feet.
posted by SteveInMaine at 1:10 PM on November 29, 2018
reading this article yesterday triggered my tonic tensor tympani syndrome and my ear has yet to stop spasming
how i long for the silent embrace of the grave
posted by poffin boffin at 1:56 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
how i long for the silent embrace of the grave
posted by poffin boffin at 1:56 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Let's not overstate this - more often than not the issue is that restauranteurs just don't think about acoustics when planning a restaurant.
Argh. I can't find the quote, but there was an interview on my local public radio station a few years ago with a restaurant designer where they said: People hate a noisy restaurant, but they never come back to a quiet one.
Personally I can't stand loud restaurants in my forties and hated them at least as much in my twenties. I think the best restaurant design would be to create lots of sound absorbing blocking surfaces (hopefully that don't block view), and pipe in kitchen sound and music with amplification adjusted on the fly to turn the sound down as the patrons get louder so that the sound level is fairly constant but you don't have to yell.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:58 PM on November 29, 2018
Argh. I can't find the quote, but there was an interview on my local public radio station a few years ago with a restaurant designer where they said: People hate a noisy restaurant, but they never come back to a quiet one.
Personally I can't stand loud restaurants in my forties and hated them at least as much in my twenties. I think the best restaurant design would be to create lots of sound absorbing blocking surfaces (hopefully that don't block view), and pipe in kitchen sound and music with amplification adjusted on the fly to turn the sound down as the patrons get louder so that the sound level is fairly constant but you don't have to yell.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:58 PM on November 29, 2018
cut the set short and/or unplug the damn amp
they make those things with volume controls now, even
This one goesup down to eleven.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:59 PM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
they make those things with volume controls now, even
This one goes
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:59 PM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's possible that the rise in take-out options is part of what encourages restaurants to be noisy. They may be thinking, "people who like the music will eat here; people who don't, will order to go. Double the orders for us; win-win!"
You sabotage this by ordering, complaining, and when your valid issue is ignored, just leaving without waiting for your food. That way they have the food expense, but not the income.
posted by mikelieman at 2:11 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
You sabotage this by ordering, complaining, and when your valid issue is ignored, just leaving without waiting for your food. That way they have the food expense, but not the income.
posted by mikelieman at 2:11 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
they make those things with volume controls now, even
"Stage Volume" is a whole different FPP, but there's a lot of bands who can't control theirs.
posted by mikelieman at 2:12 PM on November 29, 2018
"Stage Volume" is a whole different FPP, but there's a lot of bands who can't control theirs.
posted by mikelieman at 2:12 PM on November 29, 2018
Because for them, the best customers are people who buy food and don't require server time or table cleaning, and who won't complain that something isn't done right and send it back.
Except that's not the case from a financial or profitability perspective. It may be what the employees prefer, because (and I don't blame anyone for this, having worked both retail and foodservice) the best customer is always the one who isn't there, but the restaurant owner should know better.
If the best customers really were take-out customers, there would be no reason to have a dining room at all. You could just have a window in the side of a building... like McDonalds. But very few restaurants do that, except for fast food which is its own special animal. There are increasingly some places that are tuning themselves specifically for the GrubHub/UberEats takeout market, but that's the exception to the traditional restaurant business.
People are unlikely to order drinks when they get take-out, they generally don't (are legally prohibited from) buying alcohol, they don't buy dessert, there's no opportunity to upsell on anything... all the stuff that a dining room and its associated expense is designed to sell.
posted by Kadin2048 at 2:26 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Except that's not the case from a financial or profitability perspective. It may be what the employees prefer, because (and I don't blame anyone for this, having worked both retail and foodservice) the best customer is always the one who isn't there, but the restaurant owner should know better.
If the best customers really were take-out customers, there would be no reason to have a dining room at all. You could just have a window in the side of a building... like McDonalds. But very few restaurants do that, except for fast food which is its own special animal. There are increasingly some places that are tuning themselves specifically for the GrubHub/UberEats takeout market, but that's the exception to the traditional restaurant business.
People are unlikely to order drinks when they get take-out, they generally don't (are legally prohibited from) buying alcohol, they don't buy dessert, there's no opportunity to upsell on anything... all the stuff that a dining room and its associated expense is designed to sell.
posted by Kadin2048 at 2:26 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Age-ist pig that I am, I had assumed that restaurants were loud because the young people liked it that way."
Can only speak for myself here, but I do like it. One of my least favourite circumstances to be in is to be at a restaurant, with everyone having finished our meal, yet still be stuck there "talking." On one level, I'm conscious that the server is losing opportunity to get their table turned over. On another, I just like getting out of the environment once it's over. We can talk at home or outside or somewhere else.
One exception is if there is a band playing in the restaurant. In that scenario, I do not even want to wait to leave. I want out immediately, cannot stand a live band while I'm eating or worse, working.
posted by GoblinHoney at 3:30 PM on November 29, 2018
Can only speak for myself here, but I do like it. One of my least favourite circumstances to be in is to be at a restaurant, with everyone having finished our meal, yet still be stuck there "talking." On one level, I'm conscious that the server is losing opportunity to get their table turned over. On another, I just like getting out of the environment once it's over. We can talk at home or outside or somewhere else.
One exception is if there is a band playing in the restaurant. In that scenario, I do not even want to wait to leave. I want out immediately, cannot stand a live band while I'm eating or worse, working.
posted by GoblinHoney at 3:30 PM on November 29, 2018
I lucked into the situation of having ears too sensitive for loud noises and also too sensitive to stand having ear plugs in.
This is the time of year I can't go to the mall and have to literally run through the front section of the supermarket because of the asshole Salvation Army bell ringers who bang away like fire alarms.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:14 PM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is the time of year I can't go to the mall and have to literally run through the front section of the supermarket because of the asshole Salvation Army bell ringers who bang away like fire alarms.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:14 PM on November 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
A suspicion I have is that this originated in cities like New York and San Francisco, where spaces are small and construction and design are expensive. It makes some economic sense for restaurants to use minimal decor and play loud music to isolate people from the diners next to them and, yes, encourage people to go elsewhere after dinner is over.
Then, because on-the-rise restaurateurs in other cities want to emulate big city restaurants, the same trend follows for no reason in places where space is plentiful and labor is cheap.
posted by smelendez at 5:18 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Then, because on-the-rise restaurateurs in other cities want to emulate big city restaurants, the same trend follows for no reason in places where space is plentiful and labor is cheap.
posted by smelendez at 5:18 PM on November 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
As a Bay Area native, I can attest to the increase in the noise levels at restaurants, clubs (music played between bands)*, and (especially) bars. When I visit my folks, we end up getting take-out at a restaurant because the volume levels inside the place are too much for them (which means the place is losing out on money that would have been spent on drinks). It especially sucks when you're (figuratively) trapped inside a club and subjected to between-set music that, in cases, are is louder than the actual bands.
*What few clubs are left, but that's a rant for another thread.
posted by gtrwolf at 10:02 PM on November 29, 2018
*What few clubs are left, but that's a rant for another thread.
posted by gtrwolf at 10:02 PM on November 29, 2018
how i long for the silent embrace of the grave
This depends on where you are buried; generally speaking you can still hear the earth shifting, worms moving dirt, the long slow groan of subducting plates and so on.
Oddly enough, the top of a mountain is probably best -- wind whistling is too high to be heard by dead ears. For the love of god, however, get yourself placed where you cannot fall into a glacier or the next ten thousand years will be filled with cracking ice.
...hey wait, maybe this is a plus for climate change?
posted by aramaic at 11:28 PM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
This depends on where you are buried; generally speaking you can still hear the earth shifting, worms moving dirt, the long slow groan of subducting plates and so on.
Oddly enough, the top of a mountain is probably best -- wind whistling is too high to be heard by dead ears. For the love of god, however, get yourself placed where you cannot fall into a glacier or the next ten thousand years will be filled with cracking ice.
...hey wait, maybe this is a plus for climate change?
posted by aramaic at 11:28 PM on November 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
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That can happen anyway, but when you're discussing things in quieter places, it's a manageable issue.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 9:51 PM on November 28, 2018