Ghost Ship
December 12, 2018 2:13 PM Subscribe
Max Harris and the aftermath of the Ghost Ship fire A look at one of the two men who have been named culpable in the Ghost Ship artist's collective fire. (SLNYT)
Previously
I do feel sorry for Harris to some degree, though he also had much more day to day knowledge of what a firetrap he was helping to run and no amount of saving grasshoppers negates that. But Almena is a pathological narcissist.
posted by tavella at 2:34 PM on December 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by tavella at 2:34 PM on December 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also the landlord Ng family had a fuse blown, brought in an unlicensed electrician who told them that the wiring was grossly unsafe and needed 15k in repairs, didn’t fix it and....weren’t charged? What the fuck.
posted by lazaruslong at 2:50 PM on December 12, 2018 [61 favorites]
posted by lazaruslong at 2:50 PM on December 12, 2018 [61 favorites]
The warehouse’s wiring was a known, protracted problem. In 2014, according to The East Bay Times, when the building’s transformer blew, the Ng family replaced it without permits using an unlicensed electrician, who told them at the time that the wiring was “grossly unsafe” and needed another $15,000 in upgrades, which were not performed. ... The landlord, the Ng family, was not charged.
Capitalist class solidarity in action. The wealthy DA from a family of judges makes sure the wealthy landlords (who "who owned some 10 buildings in Oakland, including a Vietnamese restaurant, a bakery and a grocery") don't face the slightest sliver of accountability. The handyman living on the edge of homelessness? A million dollars bail, a year in solitary, and indefinite jail time.
posted by enn at 2:53 PM on December 12, 2018 [63 favorites]
Capitalist class solidarity in action. The wealthy DA from a family of judges makes sure the wealthy landlords (who "who owned some 10 buildings in Oakland, including a Vietnamese restaurant, a bakery and a grocery") don't face the slightest sliver of accountability. The handyman living on the edge of homelessness? A million dollars bail, a year in solitary, and indefinite jail time.
posted by enn at 2:53 PM on December 12, 2018 [63 favorites]
The bottom third of the staircase consisted of wooden palettes
THIS IS THE GODDAMN NEW YORK TIMES. PALLETS. PALLETS.
Okay, I'll keep reading.
posted by fiercecupcake at 3:03 PM on December 12, 2018 [62 favorites]
THIS IS THE GODDAMN NEW YORK TIMES. PALLETS. PALLETS.
Okay, I'll keep reading.
posted by fiercecupcake at 3:03 PM on December 12, 2018 [62 favorites]
What a tragedy; and what an article. Heartbreaking.
posted by smokysunday at 3:20 PM on December 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by smokysunday at 3:20 PM on December 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
I was part of the Rainbow Family, and have lived in communes and shared squats. What happened at ghost ship was a tragedy, but blaming Max is a travesty.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 3:27 PM on December 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 3:27 PM on December 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
Among other things, Harris rented out the top floor to the party, and blocked off the second exit there as part of preparations, leaving only the narrow wooden stair as an exit. As I said, I do feel sorry for him to some degree compared to Almena, but he absolutely had a share of criminal responsibility for those deaths.
posted by tavella at 3:34 PM on December 12, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by tavella at 3:34 PM on December 12, 2018 [11 favorites]
I had to read it twice to figure out why they thought he was responsible at all, since nobody apparently nobody who lived there thought he was in charge, and he didn't own the building or run the collective. According to the articleHarris and Almena agreed that Harris would live at Satya Yuga rent-free in exchange for helping out. From then on, at Ghost Ship, Harris was on call 24 hours a day unclogging toilets, mopping, mediating tenant disputes, collecting rent money (and then taking that rent to the bank so that Almena didn’t blow it). He also communicated with the building’s landlords, Chor and Kai Ng, who owned some 10 buildings in Oakland, including a Vietnamese restaurant, a bakery and a grocery.
So basically, he made sure the toilets worked and the bills were actually paid and the landlords were happy, which is... They went after him like he was fully responsible for building maintenance, which is probably not how anyone saw it until the fire happened. I guess there's a lesson here: in a collective, never take on any responsibility. Best to let the toilets fill up and the rent go unpaid and the full chaos to descend than to try to act like a grown-up in even the slightest way. As anyone who has been part of a collective knows, the chaos is coming anyway, nobody will thank you for trying to be responsible, and doing nothing lets you avoid liability.
I can't help but feel like there are class issues here, and wonder how much being able to afford a good lawyer affected his outcome. Why is he talking to the the New York Times at all, and not being like "The Ngs, through their lawyer, declined to comment." Assuming the article isn't glossing over his culpability, I hope he gets sentenced to time served.
Also, yes pallets. There were maybe also palettes because artists, but I doubt they contributed to the fire.
posted by surlyben at 3:35 PM on December 12, 2018 [17 favorites]
So basically, he made sure the toilets worked and the bills were actually paid and the landlords were happy, which is... They went after him like he was fully responsible for building maintenance, which is probably not how anyone saw it until the fire happened. I guess there's a lesson here: in a collective, never take on any responsibility. Best to let the toilets fill up and the rent go unpaid and the full chaos to descend than to try to act like a grown-up in even the slightest way. As anyone who has been part of a collective knows, the chaos is coming anyway, nobody will thank you for trying to be responsible, and doing nothing lets you avoid liability.
I can't help but feel like there are class issues here, and wonder how much being able to afford a good lawyer affected his outcome. Why is he talking to the the New York Times at all, and not being like "The Ngs, through their lawyer, declined to comment." Assuming the article isn't glossing over his culpability, I hope he gets sentenced to time served.
Also, yes pallets. There were maybe also palettes because artists, but I doubt they contributed to the fire.
posted by surlyben at 3:35 PM on December 12, 2018 [17 favorites]
Among other things, Harris rented out the top floor to the party, and blocking off the second exit there as part of preparations, leaving only the narrow wooden stair as an exit.
Glossing over things like this, I mean.
posted by surlyben at 3:37 PM on December 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
Glossing over things like this, I mean.
posted by surlyben at 3:37 PM on December 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have lived in an art space very much like Ghost Ship, if more anarchic. I also put out about three small electrical fires because the place was a completely chrome plated shit show of extension cables and bad, old fabric-covered wiring in the clapboard walls that should have been replaced before Carter was president.
The thought of the space suddenly bursting into flames was very much on our minds and we had fire extinguishers everywhere because of it, and this was long before Ghost Ship burned. I kept three or four of them on my bus and all of them were kept in a visible location by the always unlocked front bus door in plain view. There was one about every 50 feet on proper mounts and walls inside the space, and many were also available outside the space.
I can't imagine our rent handler getting charged with anything when she was the one always keeping things in line and dealing with the logistics, and all she really wanted was an affordable vegan-friendly place to live with artists while she worked as a bike courier all day and basically lived to take care of her many plants.
Blaming the rent-taker and random chore person for this is horrible. This seems like a clear example of making an example of someone and a direct message of "FU" to the many spaces like Ghost Ship in the Bay Area. I can't help but feel it's politically motivated far beyond the deaths of the patrons. Corporate bad actors kill way more people and get off with a slap on the wrist if anything at all.
posted by loquacious at 3:40 PM on December 12, 2018 [22 favorites]
The thought of the space suddenly bursting into flames was very much on our minds and we had fire extinguishers everywhere because of it, and this was long before Ghost Ship burned. I kept three or four of them on my bus and all of them were kept in a visible location by the always unlocked front bus door in plain view. There was one about every 50 feet on proper mounts and walls inside the space, and many were also available outside the space.
I can't imagine our rent handler getting charged with anything when she was the one always keeping things in line and dealing with the logistics, and all she really wanted was an affordable vegan-friendly place to live with artists while she worked as a bike courier all day and basically lived to take care of her many plants.
Blaming the rent-taker and random chore person for this is horrible. This seems like a clear example of making an example of someone and a direct message of "FU" to the many spaces like Ghost Ship in the Bay Area. I can't help but feel it's politically motivated far beyond the deaths of the patrons. Corporate bad actors kill way more people and get off with a slap on the wrist if anything at all.
posted by loquacious at 3:40 PM on December 12, 2018 [22 favorites]
When Harris was 5, his parents got into a heated fight, and his mother came to Harris to seek advice.
just in case anyone was wondering, this is where everything started to go wrong for this guy.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:01 PM on December 12, 2018 [56 favorites]
just in case anyone was wondering, this is where everything started to go wrong for this guy.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:01 PM on December 12, 2018 [56 favorites]
He wasn't just the rent taker, he was the manager, arranging for scores of people to attend parties there, and he specifically made changes to the building that made it even more of a death trap the night of the fire. Ghost Ship also had dozens of fire extinguishers. They don't help much when the power goes out and the place fills with black smoke. Especially when most of the people inside don't know the building at all -- I believe only one actual resident died.
Your friend indeed might have been in a great deal of legal trouble if one of those fires had killed people, especially if she had made changes that made the space even less safe or had rented out part of it to a party of more people than could safely evacuate. What she had wanted out of the arrangement would not have much sway, though it might of course help in sentencing.
And it's not the 'establishment' that has driven the trial as some kind of FU. It's the grieving families that overthrew the plea deal and forced it to trial. And they have a right to be angry.
posted by tavella at 4:01 PM on December 12, 2018 [14 favorites]
Your friend indeed might have been in a great deal of legal trouble if one of those fires had killed people, especially if she had made changes that made the space even less safe or had rented out part of it to a party of more people than could safely evacuate. What she had wanted out of the arrangement would not have much sway, though it might of course help in sentencing.
And it's not the 'establishment' that has driven the trial as some kind of FU. It's the grieving families that overthrew the plea deal and forced it to trial. And they have a right to be angry.
posted by tavella at 4:01 PM on December 12, 2018 [14 favorites]
My local hackspace is at the point where we now have two floors in a building. We've been looking at putting stairs, and every once in awhile, someone goes "Why can't we build them?"
And I have to keep pasting the Wikipedia link and go "This. This is why we can't."
Now I have something new to bring up.
And I feel like I'm going to keep bringing it up.
posted by Katemonkey at 4:02 PM on December 12, 2018 [17 favorites]
And I have to keep pasting the Wikipedia link and go "This. This is why we can't."
Now I have something new to bring up.
And I feel like I'm going to keep bringing it up.
posted by Katemonkey at 4:02 PM on December 12, 2018 [17 favorites]
Tangentially related: one of the other non-human (I want to state how horrible it was to lose all those people and not to undermine it) losses from Ghostship was *other* DIY spaces all through the country.
In Denver, many DIY spaces were closed down by the city/Fire Department. I lived at one briefly, and had many a good night making art, showing art, listening and making music (what have you). Never did I thought these places were death traps - they were basically concrete cubes made of cinder blocks. Inspectors would come around ever so often, so it wasn't like the city didn't know what was going on (but I digress...)
Incredulously to me, the people who were running two of the most popular DIY spaces have been trying extremely hard to open them back up again, no matter how many hoops of flames (figuratively) they have to jump through to make it happen. It's pretty inspiring:
https://www.westword.com/music/rhinoceropolis-and-glob-struggle-to-reopen-two-years-after-denver-shut-them-down-11041382
posted by alex_skazat at 4:41 PM on December 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
In Denver, many DIY spaces were closed down by the city/Fire Department. I lived at one briefly, and had many a good night making art, showing art, listening and making music (what have you). Never did I thought these places were death traps - they were basically concrete cubes made of cinder blocks. Inspectors would come around ever so often, so it wasn't like the city didn't know what was going on (but I digress...)
Incredulously to me, the people who were running two of the most popular DIY spaces have been trying extremely hard to open them back up again, no matter how many hoops of flames (figuratively) they have to jump through to make it happen. It's pretty inspiring:
https://www.westword.com/music/rhinoceropolis-and-glob-struggle-to-reopen-two-years-after-denver-shut-them-down-11041382
posted by alex_skazat at 4:41 PM on December 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
And it's not the 'establishment' that has driven the trial as some kind of FU. It's the grieving families that overthrew the plea deal and forced it to trial. And they have a right to be angry.
True, but is their anger nailing the right target?
I've been in and out of many spaces such as Ghost Ship over the decades, mostly in Vancouver, Canada. I recall a music fest back in the early 90s where a promoter friend decided to put on a "legal rave". In other words, find a cool space (he had one in mind) but then do it by the book for once. Sell tickets via normal venues, secure proper permits and licenses, have everything checked out by a fire inspector etc ...
Which led to a bureaucratic (and ultimately corrupt) nightmare, the details of which I can't really recall except that the fire inspector (an ex-fireman) filed his report (which my friend followed pretty much to the letter), but then later, at pretty much the last minute, the inspector threatened to rescind his permit unless he received a bunch of off-the-books cash (ie: a bribe). And so on. The show went on but my friend never bothered going "legal" again. I do recall him saying to me that the problem lay mostly with The City (the local govt bureaucracy and the police and fire departments) being openly hostile toward anyone who dared try anything outside of the norm in terms of live venues (ie: anything not in a established night club, theater, concert venue etc). And further, he minced no words in tying a lot of it to organized crime. "The guys who donate big to the cops' Christmas fund make damned sure that nothing happens in a venue that they don't own a piece of."
That was all at least twenty years ago, so here's hoping things have changed in Vancouver.
posted by philip-random at 5:10 PM on December 12, 2018 [8 favorites]
True, but is their anger nailing the right target?
I've been in and out of many spaces such as Ghost Ship over the decades, mostly in Vancouver, Canada. I recall a music fest back in the early 90s where a promoter friend decided to put on a "legal rave". In other words, find a cool space (he had one in mind) but then do it by the book for once. Sell tickets via normal venues, secure proper permits and licenses, have everything checked out by a fire inspector etc ...
Which led to a bureaucratic (and ultimately corrupt) nightmare, the details of which I can't really recall except that the fire inspector (an ex-fireman) filed his report (which my friend followed pretty much to the letter), but then later, at pretty much the last minute, the inspector threatened to rescind his permit unless he received a bunch of off-the-books cash (ie: a bribe). And so on. The show went on but my friend never bothered going "legal" again. I do recall him saying to me that the problem lay mostly with The City (the local govt bureaucracy and the police and fire departments) being openly hostile toward anyone who dared try anything outside of the norm in terms of live venues (ie: anything not in a established night club, theater, concert venue etc). And further, he minced no words in tying a lot of it to organized crime. "The guys who donate big to the cops' Christmas fund make damned sure that nothing happens in a venue that they don't own a piece of."
That was all at least twenty years ago, so here's hoping things have changed in Vancouver.
posted by philip-random at 5:10 PM on December 12, 2018 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I would really like to know why the landlord wasn’t charged, for having an unsafe electrical system.
posted by corb at 5:23 PM on December 12, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by corb at 5:23 PM on December 12, 2018 [8 favorites]
My local hackspace is at the point where we now have two floors in a building. We've been looking at putting stairs, and every once in awhile, someone goes "Why can't we build them?" And I have to keep pasting the Wikipedia link and go "This. This is why we can't."
I don't understand. Make a planset, pull a permit, build some stairs, have them inspected, good to go. I mean it has to be done to code, but you can totally build the stairs as long as you follow procedure.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:32 PM on December 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't understand. Make a planset, pull a permit, build some stairs, have them inspected, good to go. I mean it has to be done to code, but you can totally build the stairs as long as you follow procedure.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:32 PM on December 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
I would really like to know why the landlord wasn’t charged, for having an unsafe electrical system.
It's because landlords are owner class. It's really that simple.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:34 PM on December 12, 2018 [14 favorites]
It's because landlords are owner class. It's really that simple.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:34 PM on December 12, 2018 [14 favorites]
Among other things, Harris rented out the top floor to the party, and blocked off the second exit there as part of preparations, leaving only the narrow wooden stair as an exit.
I missed this in the article, and don't see it on re-reading the paragraph on party prep: what was the second exit?
posted by Orlop at 5:38 PM on December 12, 2018
I missed this in the article, and don't see it on re-reading the paragraph on party prep: what was the second exit?
posted by Orlop at 5:38 PM on December 12, 2018
So this hapless and foolish person will go to prison for a long time and be nationally vilified - for, essentially, making a terrible, tragic mistake that was virtually certainly made largely due to ignorance and which will certainly be its own punishment all his life long.
Meanwhile, Henry Kissinger, who engineered the deaths of literally hundreds of thousands and the impoverishment of hundreds of thousands more, will die in his bed surrounded by every comfort that wealth can devise, the New York Times will say what a statesman he was and anyone who brings up, eg, East Timor will be accused of having no respect for the dead.
You may sub in Stephen Miller or John Yoo or any of the architects of America's prison system or any insurance CEO, et patati et patata.
That's justice as she is wrote in these United States, I guess.
On another note, this whole debate seems to revolve around whether he does or does not deserve to spend his life in an 8X12 cell, going outside for a few minutes once a week. If he is sufficiently bad, this is acceptable; if he's not, it's unjust. Some people assuredly deserve this treatment, we say; the only question is which ones. The idea that no one might deserve such treatment, not even Henry Kissinger, never comes up. Revolutionaries in the prisons of the tsar were treated better than we treat our prisoners.
posted by Frowner at 5:45 PM on December 12, 2018 [66 favorites]
Meanwhile, Henry Kissinger, who engineered the deaths of literally hundreds of thousands and the impoverishment of hundreds of thousands more, will die in his bed surrounded by every comfort that wealth can devise, the New York Times will say what a statesman he was and anyone who brings up, eg, East Timor will be accused of having no respect for the dead.
You may sub in Stephen Miller or John Yoo or any of the architects of America's prison system or any insurance CEO, et patati et patata.
That's justice as she is wrote in these United States, I guess.
On another note, this whole debate seems to revolve around whether he does or does not deserve to spend his life in an 8X12 cell, going outside for a few minutes once a week. If he is sufficiently bad, this is acceptable; if he's not, it's unjust. Some people assuredly deserve this treatment, we say; the only question is which ones. The idea that no one might deserve such treatment, not even Henry Kissinger, never comes up. Revolutionaries in the prisons of the tsar were treated better than we treat our prisoners.
posted by Frowner at 5:45 PM on December 12, 2018 [66 favorites]
Now I'm actually kinda curious what the permitting process in NYC looks like (I bet it's pretty special, I mean I know it's a total bear to get Boston to cough up a building permit and Boston is like 1/30th the size of NYC, permitting processes tending to become more convoluted and bureaucratic as the size of the municipality increases) but that would be such a derail. But someday maybe I'll find a way to have a thread about building permits because they are fascinating in a kind of grotesque, twisted way.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:47 PM on December 12, 2018
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:47 PM on December 12, 2018
Frowner, I am feeling that notion pretty hard. Thanks for helping keep things in context. It's important not to lose sight of the bigger picture at times like this.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:53 PM on December 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:53 PM on December 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
In the aftermath of the Ghost Ship fire a whole group of people (including myself) collaborated on a DIY Venue Harm Reduction document covering safety, accessibility, emergency procedures, and much more. Many of the contributors are professionals in architecture and construction, and there are links to expert resources.
One of the main things this guide addresses, and which is important to Ghost Ship overall, is that these modifications cost money - money that is getting increasingly harder and harder to get for artists. Renting a more accessible space as a studio or live/work space is expensive (see the story's note about people losing out spaces to those that can pay 6 months rent upfront in cash) , so people turn to squats or at the very least taking over spaces that weren't built for this kind of thing. Funding is hard to find especially if you're non-normative in some way. Even fundraisers tend to be the same $100 passing around the same small group. Jobs are low in the ground, even if you're trying to look outside the arts and have a day job to fund your work (the tech & biz world can crow about "we should hire humanities grads because CREATIVITY" but never actually follow up on it). People want safe spaces for art, but hardly anyone's willing to look at the structures that make this difficult if not impossible.
But hey, there's more money for jail.
posted by divabat at 6:29 PM on December 12, 2018 [19 favorites]
One of the main things this guide addresses, and which is important to Ghost Ship overall, is that these modifications cost money - money that is getting increasingly harder and harder to get for artists. Renting a more accessible space as a studio or live/work space is expensive (see the story's note about people losing out spaces to those that can pay 6 months rent upfront in cash) , so people turn to squats or at the very least taking over spaces that weren't built for this kind of thing. Funding is hard to find especially if you're non-normative in some way. Even fundraisers tend to be the same $100 passing around the same small group. Jobs are low in the ground, even if you're trying to look outside the arts and have a day job to fund your work (the tech & biz world can crow about "we should hire humanities grads because CREATIVITY" but never actually follow up on it). People want safe spaces for art, but hardly anyone's willing to look at the structures that make this difficult if not impossible.
But hey, there's more money for jail.
posted by divabat at 6:29 PM on December 12, 2018 [19 favorites]
Revolutionaries in the prisons of the tsar were treated better than we treat our prisoners.
Uh
But prisoners of the Revolution were, um, emphatically not
He blocked off an exit in an already dangerous and fire-prone environment because he wanted to have a party. I showed more concern and responsibility for my fellow humans as a literal child. He should be imprisoned. He should not be tortured.
The landlords should be imprisoned for far longer and their assets seized, and the discrepancy here is enraging. But if you’re advocating revolution to get there, at least be honest about what that means, because it’s definitely not “humane and considered criminal justice reform.”
posted by schadenfrau at 7:00 PM on December 12, 2018 [9 favorites]
Uh
But prisoners of the Revolution were, um, emphatically not
He blocked off an exit in an already dangerous and fire-prone environment because he wanted to have a party. I showed more concern and responsibility for my fellow humans as a literal child. He should be imprisoned. He should not be tortured.
The landlords should be imprisoned for far longer and their assets seized, and the discrepancy here is enraging. But if you’re advocating revolution to get there, at least be honest about what that means, because it’s definitely not “humane and considered criminal justice reform.”
posted by schadenfrau at 7:00 PM on December 12, 2018 [9 favorites]
I think it’s reasonable to believe that Harris is an unforgivably dumbassed human (this article only cements my deep mistrust of people who self-mythologize as “kind of a character”) and indeed culpable for manslaughter by blocking an exit, Almenas too on top of being a garbage human in general, but also think that justice has been wildly miscarried here. The landlords are the most culpable for the condition of the place, and it would be not only fair for them to receive due censure but imperative in signaling to all of the other unscrupulous landlords operating in Oakland (the majority of them, since the lucrative nature of rent-seeking in the Bay Area for a resource whose scarcity has already pushed thousands of people onto the street attracts only the worst) that they’re liable for their negligence. Unfortunately, we’ve got a city government that will happily defend the ownership class against any charge of culpability.
. for the friends of friends and everyone else who died there because of the city, the landlords, an asshole, and a fool.
posted by invitapriore at 7:18 PM on December 12, 2018 [15 favorites]
. for the friends of friends and everyone else who died there because of the city, the landlords, an asshole, and a fool.
posted by invitapriore at 7:18 PM on December 12, 2018 [15 favorites]
Artists or no, if you're in a collective inhabiting a death trap and you invite people in, you should be prepared for the possibility of criminal or civil liability. If you're renting out a space, even more so. Risking your own safety in a squat is largely your own affair; bringing other people in imposes responsibility on you.
Not to say that the landlords don't need to be penalized here, but damn. Yes, you are responsible for not inviting people to parties that could turn into literal, not-at-all-fun infernos because of known, extensive code violations.
posted by praemunire at 7:45 PM on December 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
Not to say that the landlords don't need to be penalized here, but damn. Yes, you are responsible for not inviting people to parties that could turn into literal, not-at-all-fun infernos because of known, extensive code violations.
posted by praemunire at 7:45 PM on December 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
The landlord is giving evidence in court as we speak - current state of the court case involving the landlords as of last month.
As a recap, the landlord explicitly leased the space as a warehouse only, as the building itself is zoned for industrial use only. Council rules and the lease rules do not allow residential or entertainment use. The landlords provided over $60,000 worth of invoices from an electrician showing work done to remedy electrical issues: the electrician himself has been uncooperative with the investigation, refusing to answer questions and has found to be operating without a license.
posted by xdvesper at 8:11 PM on December 12, 2018 [10 favorites]
As a recap, the landlord explicitly leased the space as a warehouse only, as the building itself is zoned for industrial use only. Council rules and the lease rules do not allow residential or entertainment use. The landlords provided over $60,000 worth of invoices from an electrician showing work done to remedy electrical issues: the electrician himself has been uncooperative with the investigation, refusing to answer questions and has found to be operating without a license.
posted by xdvesper at 8:11 PM on December 12, 2018 [10 favorites]
So my takeaway from this is that evidently the life of Max Harris is far more valuable than the lives of the people who died because of his actions. In fact we can assign a value: the freedom and comfort of Max Harris is worth more than the lives of 36 people. I mean sure, his active negligence and greed killed three dozen people, but it's not worth inconveniencing him over.
I mean it's interesting the sort of dispensation a person gets, as long as they belong to the right tribe. I guess I'm used to seeing favored status being given to wealthy drunken white boys, but i guess that kind of grace can be given to anyone.
posted by happyroach at 9:18 PM on December 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
I mean it's interesting the sort of dispensation a person gets, as long as they belong to the right tribe. I guess I'm used to seeing favored status being given to wealthy drunken white boys, but i guess that kind of grace can be given to anyone.
posted by happyroach at 9:18 PM on December 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
Corporate bad actors kill way more people and get off with a slap on the wrist if anything at all.
Surely that's an argument that corporate bad actors should be more severely punished, not that people who create deadly situations should also get wrist-slapped.
posted by axiom at 9:27 PM on December 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
Surely that's an argument that corporate bad actors should be more severely punished, not that people who create deadly situations should also get wrist-slapped.
posted by axiom at 9:27 PM on December 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
So my takeaway from this is that evidently the life of Max Harris is far more valuable than the lives of the people who died because of his actions.
He's alive. They sadly are not. It seems you think the best thing to do with the life he has left is confine it to the brutality the prison system or as long as possible. Where's the gain there? For anybody.
posted by philip-random at 9:50 PM on December 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
He's alive. They sadly are not. It seems you think the best thing to do with the life he has left is confine it to the brutality the prison system or as long as possible. Where's the gain there? For anybody.
posted by philip-random at 9:50 PM on December 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
@xdvesper: That's an amazing link. The electrician sounds like a real piece of work there.
Where's the gain there? For anybody
The gain is reducing the chances of this happening again, by holding someone who directly contributed to the accident clearly accountable.
If a drunk driving frat boy killed a busload of students would you be wondering what the point of prosecution was?
posted by mark k at 10:08 PM on December 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
Where's the gain there? For anybody
The gain is reducing the chances of this happening again, by holding someone who directly contributed to the accident clearly accountable.
If a drunk driving frat boy killed a busload of students would you be wondering what the point of prosecution was?
posted by mark k at 10:08 PM on December 12, 2018 [5 favorites]
prosecution should never result in the torture that imprisonment in the us prison system implies. legal recognition of culpability ought never perpetuate suffering, especially of someone who clearly is suffering already as a result of their actions—it instead ought to restore, when and what it possibly can.
posted by zinful at 10:35 PM on December 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by zinful at 10:35 PM on December 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
like, i’ve spent a lot of time in firetrap squats. there but for the grace of god go us all who aren’t in the rentier class.
posted by zinful at 10:36 PM on December 12, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by zinful at 10:36 PM on December 12, 2018 [6 favorites]
The landlord cannot be held responsible for usage of the property that completely violated their lease except maybe if it can be demonstrated that they were tacitly tolerating residential use or large events
If Max Harris intentionally blocked a fire exit and then 36 innocent people died horribly in a fire, then he is responsible for manslaughter 36 times. He deserves to lose two or three decades of his life for that if we value the lives that were lost, and even that is light imo.
This fire killed more people than any US mass shooting except for Pulse and Las vegas. Max Harris did not intentionally kill the victims, but he made it impossible for them to survive, to make a little extra money. The risk of fire was quite foreseeable. Punishment for callous and indifferent actions causing large numbers of fatalities is just and important in its own right, and it should be measured in decades.
posted by knoyers at 11:42 PM on December 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
If Max Harris intentionally blocked a fire exit and then 36 innocent people died horribly in a fire, then he is responsible for manslaughter 36 times. He deserves to lose two or three decades of his life for that if we value the lives that were lost, and even that is light imo.
This fire killed more people than any US mass shooting except for Pulse and Las vegas. Max Harris did not intentionally kill the victims, but he made it impossible for them to survive, to make a little extra money. The risk of fire was quite foreseeable. Punishment for callous and indifferent actions causing large numbers of fatalities is just and important in its own right, and it should be measured in decades.
posted by knoyers at 11:42 PM on December 12, 2018 [4 favorites]
Also, yes pallets. There were maybe also palettes because artists, but I doubt they contributed to the fire.
The reason pallets are mentioned is that the staircase was made out of them. They burn fast and once they were gone, people were trapped on the second floor.
He deserves to lose two or three decades of his life for that if we value the lives that were lost, and even that is light imo.
Really? Where's the value of that? Pop quiz if you think long prison sentences will deter this from happening again - without looking it up, tell me what the prison sentence for the Long Island nightclub fire was. Whether he goes away for three years or three decades won't register in the minds of the people that will cause the next situation like this.
You just want seeming endless punishment for its own sake? How does that make the world any better?
posted by Candleman at 12:37 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
The reason pallets are mentioned is that the staircase was made out of them. They burn fast and once they were gone, people were trapped on the second floor.
He deserves to lose two or three decades of his life for that if we value the lives that were lost, and even that is light imo.
Really? Where's the value of that? Pop quiz if you think long prison sentences will deter this from happening again - without looking it up, tell me what the prison sentence for the Long Island nightclub fire was. Whether he goes away for three years or three decades won't register in the minds of the people that will cause the next situation like this.
You just want seeming endless punishment for its own sake? How does that make the world any better?
posted by Candleman at 12:37 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
I don't understand. Make a planset, pull a permit, build some stairs, have them inspected, good to go. I mean it has to be done to code, but you can totally build the stairs as long as you follow procedure.
When they say "let's make some stairs", they don't mean "let's do it to building standards and make sure everything is legit", they mean "I can do things with a hammer and my friend knows where we can get a lot of scrap wood."
I'm surprised no one's suggested making them out of laser-cut scrap yet.
posted by Katemonkey at 1:05 AM on December 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
When they say "let's make some stairs", they don't mean "let's do it to building standards and make sure everything is legit", they mean "I can do things with a hammer and my friend knows where we can get a lot of scrap wood."
I'm surprised no one's suggested making them out of laser-cut scrap yet.
posted by Katemonkey at 1:05 AM on December 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm not interested at all in showing how bad and wrong and blameful Max Harris is. I'm mostly just sad. That was a gut-wrenching read from beginning to end.
(The way I see it, several years in prison is a punishment reserved for acts like deliberately running over protesters with your car knowingly and with malice; not for being a good-hearted but somewhat dim naif)
posted by naju at 1:38 AM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
(The way I see it, several years in prison is a punishment reserved for acts like deliberately running over protesters with your car knowingly and with malice; not for being a good-hearted but somewhat dim naif)
posted by naju at 1:38 AM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
Huh. I think it would actually be an interesting exercise for a group of Makers to figure out how to add a staircase to their space and have it be legit. Following regulations is a huge part of the difference between being able to make shit for your personal use and being able to make shit that other people can use. It's (usually) fine to do whatever down in your basement if the only person who has to deal with your half-baked creations is you, but if you want to take the next step and make stuff that can go out into the larger world it will have to be able to exist in that more complex, more regulated environment. For anyone who's into building stuff, knowing how to research building codes, pull permits, and deal with their local AHJs is actually quite a valuable skillset.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:05 AM on December 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:05 AM on December 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
> I missed this in the article, and don't see it on re-reading the paragraph
> on party prep: what was the second exit?
I’m not entirely sure, but I believe that’s a reference to this:
One attendee, Aaron Marin, who’d stayed at Ghost Ship as a guest, remembered that there was a window on the second floor not visible behind the projection screen. He decided to jump through it and tried to get others to follow him.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:17 AM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
> on party prep: what was the second exit?
I’m not entirely sure, but I believe that’s a reference to this:
One attendee, Aaron Marin, who’d stayed at Ghost Ship as a guest, remembered that there was a window on the second floor not visible behind the projection screen. He decided to jump through it and tried to get others to follow him.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:17 AM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have to say I would feel very different about the Harris situation if only Ghost Ship residents were affected. I lived in a firetrap for a couple of years, but the price was right and a) I knew what I was getting into and b) as a resident I knew my way around and already had an exit planned.
Having gotten used to it myself I could see myself unthinkingly using the place to hold a public event, but I would definitely hold some responsibility for whatever happened next.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:03 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Having gotten used to it myself I could see myself unthinkingly using the place to hold a public event, but I would definitely hold some responsibility for whatever happened next.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:03 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
No, there was a second staircase that had been blocked off. It's not mentioned in the article, but this is from wikipedia:
There were two stairways, one in the back and one near the front, but neither led directly to an exit.[3] The second floor stairway was concealed behind contents and furnishings.[28] The front stairway, made from a pile of stacked wooden pallets,[10][29][30] was initially reported as the building's only stairway.[30]
posted by tracknode at 7:04 AM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
There were two stairways, one in the back and one near the front, but neither led directly to an exit.[3] The second floor stairway was concealed behind contents and furnishings.[28] The front stairway, made from a pile of stacked wooden pallets,[10][29][30] was initially reported as the building's only stairway.[30]
posted by tracknode at 7:04 AM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm having a hard time putting my finger on it, but some of the debate here about whether Harris deserves to spend the next 30 years in a torture cage or not feels like it has to do with the different bubbles in which various MeFites live. I think about some of the places I've been and the crowds I've hung around on the periphery of, and I have a hard time feeling like Harris is being justly punished here.
There is a world that exists outside of things like fire codes and maximum occupancy ratings, a world in which crowded parties of beautiful weirdos hosted in run-down tenements run by absentee slumlords is a normal occurrence. These are people who are living in the cracks of society and have found a way to make that existence beautiful and joyous, but who have had to invent everything from square one because they lack the resources and training to do it otherwise, and because their experiences in life have given them a powerful disdain for rules and conventions imposed by outside authorities—rules and conventions which sometimes are there to save lives, but mostly are there to oppress people like them.
It comes back to a thought I had when this whole tragedy went down, which is that tragedies like this are a natural result of a society that just does. not. value. its artists. Our society is structured such that if you're not a productive little worker bee you can basically go fuck yourself. There's a reason it's called outsider art, underground music, etc.—it's because it's made by people who have been pushed out and pushed down by a culture that has no use for them. So they cobble together what they can with what they have, and they create ecstatic experiences filled with overpowering joy and beauty—because that's their vocation, that's their whole purpose in life—but they don't do it according to the rules because they lack the resources and the training and fuck rules anyway.
And then sometimes people die. And then people go to jail. But the people who go to jail are scapegoats. And that's what's happening here.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:21 AM on December 13, 2018 [34 favorites]
There is a world that exists outside of things like fire codes and maximum occupancy ratings, a world in which crowded parties of beautiful weirdos hosted in run-down tenements run by absentee slumlords is a normal occurrence. These are people who are living in the cracks of society and have found a way to make that existence beautiful and joyous, but who have had to invent everything from square one because they lack the resources and training to do it otherwise, and because their experiences in life have given them a powerful disdain for rules and conventions imposed by outside authorities—rules and conventions which sometimes are there to save lives, but mostly are there to oppress people like them.
It comes back to a thought I had when this whole tragedy went down, which is that tragedies like this are a natural result of a society that just does. not. value. its artists. Our society is structured such that if you're not a productive little worker bee you can basically go fuck yourself. There's a reason it's called outsider art, underground music, etc.—it's because it's made by people who have been pushed out and pushed down by a culture that has no use for them. So they cobble together what they can with what they have, and they create ecstatic experiences filled with overpowering joy and beauty—because that's their vocation, that's their whole purpose in life—but they don't do it according to the rules because they lack the resources and the training and fuck rules anyway.
And then sometimes people die. And then people go to jail. But the people who go to jail are scapegoats. And that's what's happening here.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:21 AM on December 13, 2018 [34 favorites]
So fuck human life, there's art to be made? Nah, I know people throwing underground parties who put considerable thought and effort into keeping their attendees safe. I've been down a hole since reading this yesterday, and it's clear from what I've read that Harris and particularly Almena did not put much thought into basic safety. That others deserve their share of the blame does not erase their culpability.
posted by tracknode at 7:45 AM on December 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by tracknode at 7:45 AM on December 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
Sure people sometimes think about safety, but it's spotty because these events are put together by whoever can be roped into doing it. Anyway, I feel like the crushing guilt that Harris will no doubt feel for the rest of his life is probably enough here. I don't see how putting him in a cage helps anything. Obviously people disagree, but I feel like some of the disagreement comes from people saying in essence, "The rules say that if you break the rules you go in a cage, it's very clear," which is true as far as it goes but doesn't really sound like actual justice to me.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:50 AM on December 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:50 AM on December 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
I think it's a bit of a mischaracterization to say that I was advocating for a conscious trade-off between art and human life, though. I think that issues like this stem from a lack of resources, training, and a general fuck-the-rules-let's-have-fun mentality. Nobody said "Fuck it, I don't care if we all die in a fire," there was just nobody who was thinking about that stuff or had the training to figure out how to do the party safely or had the resources to secure a safe venue and the necessary safety equipment to host the party in a safe manner, and if they did go through all that stuff then the party probably couldn't have happened because I guarantee that people were doing things that would never have flown in an officially-sanctioned setting. So they just went ahead and did it anyway.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:09 AM on December 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:09 AM on December 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
Nobody said "Fuck it, I don't care if we all die in a fire,"
Did you see this?
Inside, a woman in a green dress and a red beanie sat on the first floor in a wicker chair, screaming for those above not to come down, chanting, “This is the will of the spirits of the forest.”
posted by thelonius at 8:19 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
Did you see this?
Inside, a woman in a green dress and a red beanie sat on the first floor in a wicker chair, screaming for those above not to come down, chanting, “This is the will of the spirits of the forest.”
posted by thelonius at 8:19 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
Well, that convinces me. A cage it is, then.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:29 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:29 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
There is a world that exists outside of things like fire codes and maximum occupancy ratings, a world in which crowded parties of beautiful weirdos hosted in run-down tenements run by absentee slumlords is a normal occurrence. These are people who are living in the cracks of society and have found a way to make that existence beautiful and joyous, but who have had to invent everything from square one because they lack the resources and training to do it otherwise, and because their experiences in life have given them a powerful disdain for rules and conventions imposed by outside authorities—rules and conventions which sometimes are there to save lives, but mostly are there to oppress people like them.
It comes back to a thought I had when this whole tragedy went down, which is that tragedies like this are a natural result of a society that just does. not. value. its artists.
thank you, Anticipation Of, for saving me the words ... to which I'd add, in my experience, when people speak of gentrification, these "outsider/underground" artist types are among those getting gentrified. As it's generally the fringe types who first venture into the previously "off limits to decent folks" neighborhoods and begin the complex and DANGEROUS process of rehabilitating them, making them "safe" for ... young urban professionals etc to come and live their gritty-cool lifestyle (TM) dreams ...
there was just nobody who was thinking about that stuff or had the training to figure out how to do the party safely or had the resources to secure a safe venue and the necessary safety equipment to host the party in a safe manner, and if they did go through all that stuff then the party probably couldn't have happened because I guarantee that people were doing things that would never have flown in an officially-sanctioned setting. So they just went ahead and did it anyway.
Again in my experience, it's not that nobody was thinking about safety etc, it's simply that well, we were living dangerously and we knew it. Rather as skateboarders take chances on public roads, extreme skiers take chances in off-limits zones. So hell, if we found a building that a functional sprinkler system etc, it's not like we wouldn't happily inhabit it, we just weren't going to let the lack of such deter us from pursuing ...
... ecstatic experiences filled with overpowering joy and beauty—because that's their vocation, that's their whole purpose in life
I get it that many simply can't grasp this sort of recklessness in the name of art (or whatever you want to call it). Fair enough. But please don't go using this lack of comprehension to justify blunt condemnation of those who genuinely do represent the cultural edge, not because it's hip, but because they are compelled. And yeah, good luck finding any half-interesting art (be it music, cinema, painting, theater, whatever) that doesn't have roots in just such dangerous living. I wish it were otherwise. My more than forty years in and out of "the scene" tell me it's not.
posted by philip-random at 9:07 AM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
It comes back to a thought I had when this whole tragedy went down, which is that tragedies like this are a natural result of a society that just does. not. value. its artists.
thank you, Anticipation Of, for saving me the words ... to which I'd add, in my experience, when people speak of gentrification, these "outsider/underground" artist types are among those getting gentrified. As it's generally the fringe types who first venture into the previously "off limits to decent folks" neighborhoods and begin the complex and DANGEROUS process of rehabilitating them, making them "safe" for ... young urban professionals etc to come and live their gritty-cool lifestyle (TM) dreams ...
there was just nobody who was thinking about that stuff or had the training to figure out how to do the party safely or had the resources to secure a safe venue and the necessary safety equipment to host the party in a safe manner, and if they did go through all that stuff then the party probably couldn't have happened because I guarantee that people were doing things that would never have flown in an officially-sanctioned setting. So they just went ahead and did it anyway.
Again in my experience, it's not that nobody was thinking about safety etc, it's simply that well, we were living dangerously and we knew it. Rather as skateboarders take chances on public roads, extreme skiers take chances in off-limits zones. So hell, if we found a building that a functional sprinkler system etc, it's not like we wouldn't happily inhabit it, we just weren't going to let the lack of such deter us from pursuing ...
... ecstatic experiences filled with overpowering joy and beauty—because that's their vocation, that's their whole purpose in life
I get it that many simply can't grasp this sort of recklessness in the name of art (or whatever you want to call it). Fair enough. But please don't go using this lack of comprehension to justify blunt condemnation of those who genuinely do represent the cultural edge, not because it's hip, but because they are compelled. And yeah, good luck finding any half-interesting art (be it music, cinema, painting, theater, whatever) that doesn't have roots in just such dangerous living. I wish it were otherwise. My more than forty years in and out of "the scene" tell me it's not.
posted by philip-random at 9:07 AM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
I apologize if I misread you Anticipation. "And then sometimes people die" just came off to me as a very blasé thing to say and it got my blood up.
posted by tracknode at 9:12 AM on December 13, 2018
posted by tracknode at 9:12 AM on December 13, 2018
I'm sure the 17 year old who never got to graduate high school was super grateful for the 'recklessness in the name of art'. I'm sure the mother whose last words from her child was a text of "I'm going to die" really loved the overpowering joy and beauty of the situation. I'm sure the people who tried to drag people with broken ankles out of the building but died beside them really loved that particular 'cultural edge'.
This thread contains some of the most fatuous stuff I have ever seen on the blue.
posted by tavella at 9:14 AM on December 13, 2018 [20 favorites]
This thread contains some of the most fatuous stuff I have ever seen on the blue.
posted by tavella at 9:14 AM on December 13, 2018 [20 favorites]
My apologies to you. I didn't mean it that way. It's a tragedy—but the stage for the tragedy was set not when the party began, but when we collectively decided that there's no place for beauty in our society unless someone can somehow squeeze a dollar out of it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:16 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:16 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
Like, murder a hundred thousand kids in the name of your empire and you get the Nobel Peace Prize. But some hapless fool who doesn't think about fire codes before hosting a party spends three decades locked in a cage. Justice! I feel much safer.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:21 AM on December 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:21 AM on December 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
What strikes me here is that people are conflating material responsibility, punishment and intent, and not doing a very good job of situating the whole thing.
Someone can be materially responsible - or at least partly responsible - for a tragic event without there being any real reason to jail them.
In our society punishment isn't a marker of culpability - otherwise how many rich white men would be in jail? Punishment basically means "you might or might not have done something wrong and you're low enough status that society thinks it's okay to put people like you in a cage, also you're an entertaining site of debate for the masses".
I mean, what exactly do we expect jailing people to do, and what do we expect it to do in this case? Jailing people makes them worse and makes them more likely to continue to commit crimes. Jailing people worsens their health and creates all kinds of knock-on community health issues.
In this particular instance, where people made a set of foolish and tragic mistakes, it's not like they're going to think "oh well my negligence contributed to the deaths of a huge number of my community members, guess it's on to the next art space, every day a new adventure". (On a personal level, I'm almost always against punishing people for genuine mistakes that cause serous harm, even stupid ones that cause a lot of harm, because in my experience most morally normal people punish themselves through grief and the natural life consequences of being known to have done such a thing. Even people I don't like. Even frat boys. )
I also think that most people are leaving out the culture here. This guy is an obvious naif, and he was pretty young when this happened, and he'd had zero experience with just...adulting in a typical culture way. He'd been socialized into an art culture where people do dumb shit all the time. That's the norm. It's a stupid and appalling norm, but it is one that is passed on to people who really don't know better.
I have many times recounted the terrifying tale of being in an alternative space when a performer started letting off fireworks indoors in a crowded art space full of puppets, one of which caught fire and burned like a torch. This was a non-profit theater in a nominally legal space. If things had gone wrong, we could all have died. I was really very angry. At the same time, I knew those people and they were just thoughtless people who'd grown up in very rackety circumstances. (I also met a person in those same circles who held body and soul together by odd jobs and who did not understand that I couldn't just...get up and leave my desk to do random things during the business day. This person wasn't rich and spoiled; she came from a family where people were poor and did odd jobs and no one ever worked in an office.)
And the idea that this kid was crowding people into the space to "make money" - that's bananas. If you've ever been around this type of art space, you know that he was crowding people in so that more people could see the show. Stupid, yes, but not self-serving.
People are just dumb, and 99% of the time their carelessness with the rules doesn't cause a disaster, so their carelessness gets passed on - the next person gets taught to run the stupid and risky electrical system the same way, and because no one in a given social circle actually knows how electricity works, they just carry on until a disaster hits. It's a systemic problem that could actually be addressed if we as a society valued our youth and valued art. (strangely enough, Bernie Sanders seems to have been responsible for creating a successful youth art space in a real building up to real fire codes).
For me personally, this situation is a perfect illustration of why we need restorative justice rather than our current system. This person made a bad decision and was partially materially responsible for a terrible tragedy that he obviously deeply, deeply regrets.
Terrible tragedies happen. They happen all the time. The quantity and depth of the tragedy isn't something that can meaningfully be mapped onto punishment. If someone dies in a fire alone and unloved, is the crooked landlord less culpable because no one is upset? If ten thousand people die because some bureaucrat manufactures a famine in the political interests of the United Kingdom, why isn't the bureaucrat punished? Are those people any less dead? Are they individually less precious because of some kind of quantity discount?
It's morally backward to say that someone making a stupid mistake in a social situation where he'd been taught to make that stupid mistake is uniquely monstrous and deserves to rot in prison while someone intentionally, calculatedly making decisions of state - kicking people off healthcare, for instance, or setting up a program to drone bomb civilians - should get a nice pension and a retirement gift.
posted by Frowner at 9:26 AM on December 13, 2018 [35 favorites]
Someone can be materially responsible - or at least partly responsible - for a tragic event without there being any real reason to jail them.
In our society punishment isn't a marker of culpability - otherwise how many rich white men would be in jail? Punishment basically means "you might or might not have done something wrong and you're low enough status that society thinks it's okay to put people like you in a cage, also you're an entertaining site of debate for the masses".
I mean, what exactly do we expect jailing people to do, and what do we expect it to do in this case? Jailing people makes them worse and makes them more likely to continue to commit crimes. Jailing people worsens their health and creates all kinds of knock-on community health issues.
In this particular instance, where people made a set of foolish and tragic mistakes, it's not like they're going to think "oh well my negligence contributed to the deaths of a huge number of my community members, guess it's on to the next art space, every day a new adventure". (On a personal level, I'm almost always against punishing people for genuine mistakes that cause serous harm, even stupid ones that cause a lot of harm, because in my experience most morally normal people punish themselves through grief and the natural life consequences of being known to have done such a thing. Even people I don't like. Even frat boys. )
I also think that most people are leaving out the culture here. This guy is an obvious naif, and he was pretty young when this happened, and he'd had zero experience with just...adulting in a typical culture way. He'd been socialized into an art culture where people do dumb shit all the time. That's the norm. It's a stupid and appalling norm, but it is one that is passed on to people who really don't know better.
I have many times recounted the terrifying tale of being in an alternative space when a performer started letting off fireworks indoors in a crowded art space full of puppets, one of which caught fire and burned like a torch. This was a non-profit theater in a nominally legal space. If things had gone wrong, we could all have died. I was really very angry. At the same time, I knew those people and they were just thoughtless people who'd grown up in very rackety circumstances. (I also met a person in those same circles who held body and soul together by odd jobs and who did not understand that I couldn't just...get up and leave my desk to do random things during the business day. This person wasn't rich and spoiled; she came from a family where people were poor and did odd jobs and no one ever worked in an office.)
And the idea that this kid was crowding people into the space to "make money" - that's bananas. If you've ever been around this type of art space, you know that he was crowding people in so that more people could see the show. Stupid, yes, but not self-serving.
People are just dumb, and 99% of the time their carelessness with the rules doesn't cause a disaster, so their carelessness gets passed on - the next person gets taught to run the stupid and risky electrical system the same way, and because no one in a given social circle actually knows how electricity works, they just carry on until a disaster hits. It's a systemic problem that could actually be addressed if we as a society valued our youth and valued art. (strangely enough, Bernie Sanders seems to have been responsible for creating a successful youth art space in a real building up to real fire codes).
For me personally, this situation is a perfect illustration of why we need restorative justice rather than our current system. This person made a bad decision and was partially materially responsible for a terrible tragedy that he obviously deeply, deeply regrets.
Terrible tragedies happen. They happen all the time. The quantity and depth of the tragedy isn't something that can meaningfully be mapped onto punishment. If someone dies in a fire alone and unloved, is the crooked landlord less culpable because no one is upset? If ten thousand people die because some bureaucrat manufactures a famine in the political interests of the United Kingdom, why isn't the bureaucrat punished? Are those people any less dead? Are they individually less precious because of some kind of quantity discount?
It's morally backward to say that someone making a stupid mistake in a social situation where he'd been taught to make that stupid mistake is uniquely monstrous and deserves to rot in prison while someone intentionally, calculatedly making decisions of state - kicking people off healthcare, for instance, or setting up a program to drone bomb civilians - should get a nice pension and a retirement gift.
posted by Frowner at 9:26 AM on December 13, 2018 [35 favorites]
In this particular instance, where people made a set of foolish and tragic mistakes, it's not like they're going to think "oh well my negligence contributed to the deaths of a huge number of my community members, guess it's on to the next art space, every day a new adventure".
Conclusion not based in evidence. When arrested, Harris was living in another firetrap illegal art space warehouse in LA, also not zoned for habitation. And Almena hasn't accepted any personal responsibility for what happened. So yes, they seemed entirely prepared to move on to the next art space.
posted by tavella at 9:48 AM on December 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
Conclusion not based in evidence. When arrested, Harris was living in another firetrap illegal art space warehouse in LA, also not zoned for habitation. And Almena hasn't accepted any personal responsibility for what happened. So yes, they seemed entirely prepared to move on to the next art space.
posted by tavella at 9:48 AM on December 13, 2018 [7 favorites]
I mean Epstein got what, six months for raping a bunch of kids? I don't think I've ever said that Harris bears no responsibility, just that thirty years in a cage doesn't sound like justice to me.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:49 AM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:49 AM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
People are just dumb, and 99% of the time their carelessness with the rules doesn't cause a disaster, so their carelessness gets passed on - the next person gets taught to run the stupid and risky electrical system the same way, and because no one in a given social circle actually knows how electricity works, they just carry on until a disaster hits
This. Like - okay. I organize currently in lefty spaces where people do not have a cultural understanding that the rules are there for them, and this shit is constant in the culture. Constant. Anti-hierarchical types who don't want to create or reinforce a hierarchy meaning no one is actually responsible for problems. And sometimes, they're enormous problems.
We currently frequently meet in an art space that my engineer spouse says violates code like a motherfucker. We do it because the groups meeting there can't afford to rent space in a place that would charge, and 'just meet in the rain' isn't really a good option either. I don't believe it's a fire hazard, but god only knows how the electricity is wired there. When I was looking at houses, it was truly shocking how many places had unsafe electrical systems that couldn't pass an inspection, and those were places trying to be sold, not trying to be lived in.
People never, ever, pay the taxes they're supposed to or report their money accurately. I'm pretty sure eventually it's going to come down in flames and the IRS is going to audit a whole bunch of people who didn't know any better than to just take the money. Because like - these knowledges are specialized skills, right now, and they're specialized skills often picked up by growing up middle or upper class and having the money to hire professionals. Knowledge of fire code is a specialized skill. Knowledge of tax law is a specialized skill. That's why middle class people hire contractors and tax accountants.
And like - you can say they just shouldn't do it then, but that means often people being homeless. Should people burn alive because other people don't understand how fires work? No. But also - can anyone here tell me the things in their homes that are adjusted for fire code? What additions would increase the risk of fire and what additions will decrease them?
posted by corb at 10:09 AM on December 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
This. Like - okay. I organize currently in lefty spaces where people do not have a cultural understanding that the rules are there for them, and this shit is constant in the culture. Constant. Anti-hierarchical types who don't want to create or reinforce a hierarchy meaning no one is actually responsible for problems. And sometimes, they're enormous problems.
We currently frequently meet in an art space that my engineer spouse says violates code like a motherfucker. We do it because the groups meeting there can't afford to rent space in a place that would charge, and 'just meet in the rain' isn't really a good option either. I don't believe it's a fire hazard, but god only knows how the electricity is wired there. When I was looking at houses, it was truly shocking how many places had unsafe electrical systems that couldn't pass an inspection, and those were places trying to be sold, not trying to be lived in.
People never, ever, pay the taxes they're supposed to or report their money accurately. I'm pretty sure eventually it's going to come down in flames and the IRS is going to audit a whole bunch of people who didn't know any better than to just take the money. Because like - these knowledges are specialized skills, right now, and they're specialized skills often picked up by growing up middle or upper class and having the money to hire professionals. Knowledge of fire code is a specialized skill. Knowledge of tax law is a specialized skill. That's why middle class people hire contractors and tax accountants.
And like - you can say they just shouldn't do it then, but that means often people being homeless. Should people burn alive because other people don't understand how fires work? No. But also - can anyone here tell me the things in their homes that are adjusted for fire code? What additions would increase the risk of fire and what additions will decrease them?
posted by corb at 10:09 AM on December 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
Indeed. I'm not even a real electrician, but there is a 100% chance that if I went to your house and started looking, I could find multiple violations of the electrical code. The electrical code is almost entirely about preventing people from getting electrocuted or burning to death, and every house has violations. Every single one. Not exaggerating.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:16 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:16 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
People are just dumb, and 99% of the time their carelessness with the rules doesn't cause a disaster, so their carelessness gets passed on
People are dumb, yes, but it's more than that sometimes. These kids (not all) are in pain, too. They're angry. They feel like shit, because of trauma in their childhoods, or a chemical imbalance, or both. And they have a creative side, so they try to express themselves through art but are still angry at anyone (real or perceived) who represents the authority they hate, the ones telling them that they're always doing it wrong, and at themselves for feeling pain.
My sister is like this. She's very creative, and makes a lot of art. She bragged to me as a teen about her shoplifting, because that was sticking it to the evil mainstream corporations. Her favorite movies are the quirky, art-filled ones where someone gets something for nothing (Desperately Seeking Susan, where Madonna steals; Diva, where Jules lives for free in a garage and Alba steals despite living with a rich guy).
(I also met a person in those same circles who held body and soul together by odd jobs and who did not understand that I couldn't just...get up and leave my desk to do random things during the business day. This person wasn't rich and spoiled; she came from a family where people were poor and did odd jobs and no one ever worked in an office.)
I know people who also don't think I should just stay in an office all day, because that's catering to the Man. That's not living. Electricity up to code? Bah, that's someone else trying to tell me what to do. I am creative! The people at the warehouse were there because no one is telling us to do. No one is causing me pain. I remember my sister had a big party in our large house with inherited objects; after some kids stole some of my mother's jewelry, my sister reacted to my mother's screaming with something like "how dare you interfere with my ability to be friends with creative people, and besides that jewelry is rich crap anyway." Those were fun days. (All the inherited objects were eventually sold, because my mother would rather live off that money than work; this type of pain is definitely inherited.) My sister, now 52, has actually worked very hard to feel better; nobody knew back then that her hypoglycemia was a problem (we were forced to eat foods at very set times), or that yoga could restore one's mental balance. She's still living in a hippie commune and completely uninterested in any job that's for capitalism, but she loves animals and art and most definitely attended parties like this one and also would have just sadly moved on to the next party, because that's how she felt.
Nobody said "Fuck it, I don't care if we all die in a fire,"
Did you see this?
Inside, a woman in a green dress and a red beanie sat on the first floor in a wicker chair, screaming for those above not to come down, chanting, “This is the will of the spirits of the forest.”
Unfortunately, this is true for some people. Death is better than the pain they're in.
posted by sockerpup at 10:21 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
People are dumb, yes, but it's more than that sometimes. These kids (not all) are in pain, too. They're angry. They feel like shit, because of trauma in their childhoods, or a chemical imbalance, or both. And they have a creative side, so they try to express themselves through art but are still angry at anyone (real or perceived) who represents the authority they hate, the ones telling them that they're always doing it wrong, and at themselves for feeling pain.
My sister is like this. She's very creative, and makes a lot of art. She bragged to me as a teen about her shoplifting, because that was sticking it to the evil mainstream corporations. Her favorite movies are the quirky, art-filled ones where someone gets something for nothing (Desperately Seeking Susan, where Madonna steals; Diva, where Jules lives for free in a garage and Alba steals despite living with a rich guy).
(I also met a person in those same circles who held body and soul together by odd jobs and who did not understand that I couldn't just...get up and leave my desk to do random things during the business day. This person wasn't rich and spoiled; she came from a family where people were poor and did odd jobs and no one ever worked in an office.)
I know people who also don't think I should just stay in an office all day, because that's catering to the Man. That's not living. Electricity up to code? Bah, that's someone else trying to tell me what to do. I am creative! The people at the warehouse were there because no one is telling us to do. No one is causing me pain. I remember my sister had a big party in our large house with inherited objects; after some kids stole some of my mother's jewelry, my sister reacted to my mother's screaming with something like "how dare you interfere with my ability to be friends with creative people, and besides that jewelry is rich crap anyway." Those were fun days. (All the inherited objects were eventually sold, because my mother would rather live off that money than work; this type of pain is definitely inherited.) My sister, now 52, has actually worked very hard to feel better; nobody knew back then that her hypoglycemia was a problem (we were forced to eat foods at very set times), or that yoga could restore one's mental balance. She's still living in a hippie commune and completely uninterested in any job that's for capitalism, but she loves animals and art and most definitely attended parties like this one and also would have just sadly moved on to the next party, because that's how she felt.
Nobody said "Fuck it, I don't care if we all die in a fire,"
Did you see this?
Inside, a woman in a green dress and a red beanie sat on the first floor in a wicker chair, screaming for those above not to come down, chanting, “This is the will of the spirits of the forest.”
Unfortunately, this is true for some people. Death is better than the pain they're in.
posted by sockerpup at 10:21 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
There is a world that exists outside of things like fire codes and maximum occupancy ratings
Oh please. My complaint isn’t that they didn’t have the resources to hire licensed whoever and deal with bureaucratic hassles; my complaint is that Harris did things that were obviously fucking dangerous.
I’ve been part of those outsider collectives too, and I’ve even helped plan events. The difference is that sometimes you have people in charge who actually think ahead and care about the possibility of harm and sometimes you don’t. Blocking the only other exit and leaving stairs made out of stacked pallets is not a fucking class issue, it’s a negligence issue.
He didn’t care enough about the safety of people going to that party to give it cursory thought or make the less convenient choice. Full fucking stop. I don’t know what complicated set of circumstances led him to make that choice but I also don’t give a shit. That level of callous disregard for the lives of other human beings is abhorrent and there is absolutely no excuse for it. I’m frankly horrified that there are a ton of mefites lining up to make those laughable excuses just because Mark Harris seems like one of their people. It’s the same sort of bullshit we would see when someone was outed as a predator — but you don’t understand the scene, you don’t understand the context, maybe you’re just too privileged.
Bullshit. We understand. And we’re fucking appalled.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:27 AM on December 13, 2018 [18 favorites]
Oh please. My complaint isn’t that they didn’t have the resources to hire licensed whoever and deal with bureaucratic hassles; my complaint is that Harris did things that were obviously fucking dangerous.
I’ve been part of those outsider collectives too, and I’ve even helped plan events. The difference is that sometimes you have people in charge who actually think ahead and care about the possibility of harm and sometimes you don’t. Blocking the only other exit and leaving stairs made out of stacked pallets is not a fucking class issue, it’s a negligence issue.
He didn’t care enough about the safety of people going to that party to give it cursory thought or make the less convenient choice. Full fucking stop. I don’t know what complicated set of circumstances led him to make that choice but I also don’t give a shit. That level of callous disregard for the lives of other human beings is abhorrent and there is absolutely no excuse for it. I’m frankly horrified that there are a ton of mefites lining up to make those laughable excuses just because Mark Harris seems like one of their people. It’s the same sort of bullshit we would see when someone was outed as a predator — but you don’t understand the scene, you don’t understand the context, maybe you’re just too privileged.
Bullshit. We understand. And we’re fucking appalled.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:27 AM on December 13, 2018 [18 favorites]
So, would you say that the world would be improved if he were forced to spend the next thirty years in a cage over it?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:30 AM on December 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:30 AM on December 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
Ah I see the goal posts have moved to justifying the entire criminal justice system, so this will surely be a productive conversation
posted by schadenfrau at 10:32 AM on December 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 10:32 AM on December 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
What consequences do you feel they should face? You're basically Godwinning this thread by bringing up Henry Kissinger but not suggesting any alternative that would provide some justice to the actual victims of this tragedy.
posted by tracknode at 10:33 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by tracknode at 10:33 AM on December 13, 2018 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile, Henry Kissinger,
You may sub in Stephen Miller or John Yoo
murder [...] and you get the Nobel Peace Prize
I mean Epstein got what, six months
This keeps coming up, and it's a really weird application of whataboutism, I feel. Like, I'm pretty sure nobody here is defending the entire swirling maw that is America in this context (since it's not even just "the justice system" but also politics and the entire system that's being pulled in). But yet, that's the recurring go-to.
"Things are worse elsewhere, so anything less than that is justifiable" is a fairly destructive bit of deflection.
There's room for talking about multiple issues at once, I swear. Asking "Is this guy criminally negligent for his contribution to the chain of events that led to 36 people dying?" isn't going to distract Interpol at a crucial moment and keep them from arresting Kissinger.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:40 AM on December 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
You may sub in Stephen Miller or John Yoo
murder [...] and you get the Nobel Peace Prize
I mean Epstein got what, six months
This keeps coming up, and it's a really weird application of whataboutism, I feel. Like, I'm pretty sure nobody here is defending the entire swirling maw that is America in this context (since it's not even just "the justice system" but also politics and the entire system that's being pulled in). But yet, that's the recurring go-to.
"Things are worse elsewhere, so anything less than that is justifiable" is a fairly destructive bit of deflection.
There's room for talking about multiple issues at once, I swear. Asking "Is this guy criminally negligent for his contribution to the chain of events that led to 36 people dying?" isn't going to distract Interpol at a crucial moment and keep them from arresting Kissinger.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:40 AM on December 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
Ah I see the goal posts have moved to justifying the entire criminal justice system
Honestly schadenfrau I take it as you having successfully clarified your original point and the conversation moving on. People may not agree with one another but the back and forth was becoming repetitive on both sides.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:42 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Honestly schadenfrau I take it as you having successfully clarified your original point and the conversation moving on. People may not agree with one another but the back and forth was becoming repetitive on both sides.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:42 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
I thought that from the very beginning this thread has been about whether it makes sense to punish Harris in the way he is being punished. I mean, that's certainly what all my comments have been about, and pretty clearly I think what Frowner's most recent comment was about, and several other ones from further upthread as well. In fact just an hour ago I made a comment that was pretty explicitly about that. My exact words at the time were, "I don't think I've ever said that Harris bears no responsibility, just that thirty years in a cage doesn't sound like justice to me."
I haven't moved any goalposts, but I do think perhaps you've misread me.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:43 AM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
I haven't moved any goalposts, but I do think perhaps you've misread me.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:43 AM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
The self-aggrandizing specter of Almena looms heavily over all the rhapsodic waxing over anarchic creative spaces and the beautiful weirdos who come together to inhabit them. Doesn't sound like Ghost Ship would have happened without this abusive, controlling male asshole in a position of leadership. Forgive me for thinking that this rilly cool scene was poisoned from the get-go by his involvement, and that I would trade every single creative work ever produced by everybody who ever set foot in that space for the life of the teenager who burned to death in there.
The article posits Harris as Almena's idiot henchman. What is the appropriate punishment for idiot henchmen? Fuck if I know.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:45 AM on December 13, 2018 [17 favorites]
The article posits Harris as Almena's idiot henchman. What is the appropriate punishment for idiot henchmen? Fuck if I know.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:45 AM on December 13, 2018 [17 favorites]
As I and others have said already in this thread, I think the crushing, lifelong feelings of guilt and the reputation of having been the person who did what he did would be sufficient in this case. I would also support getting him support for whatever personal issues he is obviously dealing with so that he can become a more responsible person and live a less marginalized life. Why, do you have a better proposal?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:46 AM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:46 AM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
Indeed. I'm not even a real electrician, but there is a 100% chance that if I went to your house and started looking, I could find multiple violations of the electrical code. The electrical code is almost entirely about preventing people from getting electrocuted or burning to death, and every house has violations. Every single one. Not exaggerating.
If the picture the article paints (that the electrical system was basically extension cords attached to extension cords) is accurate I suspect you would have recognized something much more dangerous than simple code violations in the warehouse.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:48 AM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
If the picture the article paints (that the electrical system was basically extension cords attached to extension cords) is accurate I suspect you would have recognized something much more dangerous than simple code violations in the warehouse.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:48 AM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
It’s just disconcerting to see the rhetorical tricks we abhor in, say, Republicans deployed here to defend a guy who reminds people of that guy they knew in their youth but who was nevertheless very much responsible for 36 people burning to death.
That Kissinger and whoever the fuck else go unpunished for crimes is infuriating, but if you actually care about justice the appropriate response is “Kissinger and whoever the fuck else also go to prison.” If your response is instead “well then our guy should go free too” you are not actually interested in justice; you are interested in tribalism.
And while wielding those rhetorical weapons on behalf of lefties does not carry the destructive power that it does when wielded on behalf of, say, Nazis, because of the persistent power imbalance we are all so very conscious of, it’s still not, you know, great. And does not leave me inclined to trust anyone who would wield such an argument with any power over others at all, including the soft power of community influence, because you’ve already shown you’ll abuse it.
I mean, good Lord. Thirty six people burned to death in an eminently foreseeable way. How is this an argument.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:49 AM on December 13, 2018 [18 favorites]
That Kissinger and whoever the fuck else go unpunished for crimes is infuriating, but if you actually care about justice the appropriate response is “Kissinger and whoever the fuck else also go to prison.” If your response is instead “well then our guy should go free too” you are not actually interested in justice; you are interested in tribalism.
And while wielding those rhetorical weapons on behalf of lefties does not carry the destructive power that it does when wielded on behalf of, say, Nazis, because of the persistent power imbalance we are all so very conscious of, it’s still not, you know, great. And does not leave me inclined to trust anyone who would wield such an argument with any power over others at all, including the soft power of community influence, because you’ve already shown you’ll abuse it.
I mean, good Lord. Thirty six people burned to death in an eminently foreseeable way. How is this an argument.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:49 AM on December 13, 2018 [18 favorites]
I just have a very hard time seeing how imprisoning someone ever makes anything better rather than worse, except when it's absolutely necessary to safeguard the wellbeing of innocents, e.g. in domestic violence cases where an abuser might return to kill their victim. I would not support jailing Kissinger, although I think he ought not to be given any power anymore. I just don't see what good it serves.
I don't think these are rhetorical tricks. I think that this is a moral stand that is well-supported by my comment history on this site, should anyone care to delve into it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:55 AM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't think these are rhetorical tricks. I think that this is a moral stand that is well-supported by my comment history on this site, should anyone care to delve into it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:55 AM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
Who believes in punishment? Who believes this person deserves it?
If one believes that the justice system should only be about rehabilitation and prevention, I can't imagine any purpose in locking this guy up for a year, much less 30.
The master tenant, on the other hand, a long cooling off period could be justified for the sake of prevention, in his case. He's clearly a sociopath with abusive tendencies. If that can't be fixed and he can't be rehabilitated in any fashion, he will be a danger wherever he is.
posted by bootlegpop at 11:01 AM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
If one believes that the justice system should only be about rehabilitation and prevention, I can't imagine any purpose in locking this guy up for a year, much less 30.
The master tenant, on the other hand, a long cooling off period could be justified for the sake of prevention, in his case. He's clearly a sociopath with abusive tendencies. If that can't be fixed and he can't be rehabilitated in any fashion, he will be a danger wherever he is.
posted by bootlegpop at 11:01 AM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
I think the crushing, lifelong feelings of guilt and the reputation of having been the person who did what he did would be sufficient in this case.
I completely get this feeling, but at the same time, if my kid had burned to death in that fire, there's no way this would feel like anything close to justice for me. I've argued previously that victim impact is appropriately limited as an input in sentencing, but it's certainly not zero.
I've known beautiful weirdos like these, and while I'm glad they exist I've also been careful to draw boundaries just because I'm not willing to soak up the damage they cause--and much more frequently in smaller doses than rare catastrophes. The fire is a huge tragedy obscuring a countless number of smaller ones--most notably, Almena's abusive relationship with Harris. The lack of hierarchy, responsibility and self-policing in such communities has much more dire consequences on a daily scale than I see many are willing to acknowledge.
posted by fatbird at 11:04 AM on December 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
I completely get this feeling, but at the same time, if my kid had burned to death in that fire, there's no way this would feel like anything close to justice for me. I've argued previously that victim impact is appropriately limited as an input in sentencing, but it's certainly not zero.
I've known beautiful weirdos like these, and while I'm glad they exist I've also been careful to draw boundaries just because I'm not willing to soak up the damage they cause--and much more frequently in smaller doses than rare catastrophes. The fire is a huge tragedy obscuring a countless number of smaller ones--most notably, Almena's abusive relationship with Harris. The lack of hierarchy, responsibility and self-policing in such communities has much more dire consequences on a daily scale than I see many are willing to acknowledge.
posted by fatbird at 11:04 AM on December 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
What consequences do you feel they should face?
Well obviously he should tweet an apology about how bad he feels and about how this all has ruined his life. And the families of the dead should be expected to accept that apology graciously and forgive him, because otherwise they're being total downers and drama queens.
It's very very similar to how things go down at SF conventions. "Oh wow, so put Guest of Honor sexually assaulted another guest? Well he apologized, and said how awful he feels, so it's settled. Why does she have to be a bitch about it?"
If someone, usually a male, falls into the right category, it's never his fault, it's an innocent mistake, I'm sure he learned an important lesson, what good would persecuting him do? The distinctions between the excuses made for a writer groping a teen, a drunk athlete raping a woman behind a dumpster, and an arts manager arranging the deaths of three dozen people? They're smaller than you think.
posted by happyroach at 11:11 AM on December 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
Well obviously he should tweet an apology about how bad he feels and about how this all has ruined his life. And the families of the dead should be expected to accept that apology graciously and forgive him, because otherwise they're being total downers and drama queens.
It's very very similar to how things go down at SF conventions. "Oh wow, so put Guest of Honor sexually assaulted another guest? Well he apologized, and said how awful he feels, so it's settled. Why does she have to be a bitch about it?"
If someone, usually a male, falls into the right category, it's never his fault, it's an innocent mistake, I'm sure he learned an important lesson, what good would persecuting him do? The distinctions between the excuses made for a writer groping a teen, a drunk athlete raping a woman behind a dumpster, and an arts manager arranging the deaths of three dozen people? They're smaller than you think.
posted by happyroach at 11:11 AM on December 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
I get your position fatbird, but I disagree. What you describe sounds like vengeance—you got my kid killed, so I'm going to lock you up—and that's not the system that I personally would want. I can accept that some people want there to be a component of vengeance in the justice system, even though I myself do not support that. I'm glad that we can at least be clear on what we're disagreeing about, however.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:11 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:11 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's part of the DAs report, edeezy. As part of the prep for the dance party, Harris moved all the Almenas' furniture to the back of the second floor, blocking off the second stairway.
posted by tavella at 11:11 AM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 11:11 AM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
What you describe sounds like vengeance—you got my kid killed, so I'm going to lock you up
What would a restorative approach look like in this case?
posted by fatbird at 11:25 AM on December 13, 2018
What would a restorative approach look like in this case?
posted by fatbird at 11:25 AM on December 13, 2018
What categories does Harris fall into that Almena doesn't?
Master tenant. Landlord. Beneficiary of the rent being paid. Sociopath. Attention seeker. Person incapable of showing contrition.
----
As for my previous post:
I wasn't asking a rhetorical question.
To anyone and everyone: Do you believe that punishment should be a or the purpose of the justice system?
If you do, it's a matter of how much you think that he should be punished.
If you don't believe in punishment for the sake of punishment, what purpose do you hope to serve by having him locked up?
Do you think that he will get rehabilitated?
Do you think that a single person won't run a party because of the duration of his prison term?
He would obviously rather live in a risky building than live in the streets, but do you think that he is all that likely to run parties in death traps?
Even if you do, why not just put him out on parole in a situation where he will have to serve a long term if he so much as invites more than 2 people to his domicile at any given time, and have a PO officer check up on where he is staying for the duration?
posted by bootlegpop at 11:26 AM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
Master tenant. Landlord. Beneficiary of the rent being paid. Sociopath. Attention seeker. Person incapable of showing contrition.
----
As for my previous post:
I wasn't asking a rhetorical question.
To anyone and everyone: Do you believe that punishment should be a or the purpose of the justice system?
If you do, it's a matter of how much you think that he should be punished.
If you don't believe in punishment for the sake of punishment, what purpose do you hope to serve by having him locked up?
Do you think that he will get rehabilitated?
Do you think that a single person won't run a party because of the duration of his prison term?
He would obviously rather live in a risky building than live in the streets, but do you think that he is all that likely to run parties in death traps?
Even if you do, why not just put him out on parole in a situation where he will have to serve a long term if he so much as invites more than 2 people to his domicile at any given time, and have a PO officer check up on where he is staying for the duration?
posted by bootlegpop at 11:26 AM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
What would a restorative approach look like in this case?
very good question. I'm living in a small community that's currently dealing with an arson incident that thankfully didn't take any lives, but it has certainly affected everyone. And now, after a few months of anger, confusion and whatever, a restorative justice process has begun.
What's immediately interesting to me is how quickly the black hat villainy of the arsonist has assumed shades of grey. Developmentally challenged, aged out of of eligibility for assisted care, never quite got back into the "system" as an adult, became his mother's problem to deal with, which she accepted but then her partner (not the arsonist's father who was long gone) had a medical emergency and while she was dealing with this, he (the arsonist) in a fit of rage started the fire.
So (assuming we're willing to be so conscious), we (the community) are suddenly finding ourselves at least somewhat implicated. Where were we when this family (our neighbors) needed help? If we weren't aware of it, why not? Was it easier to just look the other way when things got too obvious? How did we vote in various elections? Did we vote? And even if we didn't vote, were we out there advocating for improvements to our social safety net so that families such as this do not find themselves so alone?
And so on.
posted by philip-random at 11:37 AM on December 13, 2018 [11 favorites]
very good question. I'm living in a small community that's currently dealing with an arson incident that thankfully didn't take any lives, but it has certainly affected everyone. And now, after a few months of anger, confusion and whatever, a restorative justice process has begun.
What's immediately interesting to me is how quickly the black hat villainy of the arsonist has assumed shades of grey. Developmentally challenged, aged out of of eligibility for assisted care, never quite got back into the "system" as an adult, became his mother's problem to deal with, which she accepted but then her partner (not the arsonist's father who was long gone) had a medical emergency and while she was dealing with this, he (the arsonist) in a fit of rage started the fire.
So (assuming we're willing to be so conscious), we (the community) are suddenly finding ourselves at least somewhat implicated. Where were we when this family (our neighbors) needed help? If we weren't aware of it, why not? Was it easier to just look the other way when things got too obvious? How did we vote in various elections? Did we vote? And even if we didn't vote, were we out there advocating for improvements to our social safety net so that families such as this do not find themselves so alone?
And so on.
posted by philip-random at 11:37 AM on December 13, 2018 [11 favorites]
I think it would look a lot like therapy, and possibly getting him hooked up with some social services that would help him lead a better, more responsible life. He needs to understand what he did and develop into a person who will make better decisions in the future. I'm not sure what more there is to do. He can't bring anyone back to life, and any apology he could make would be pretty meaningless. A lengthy term of community service would probably be appropriate, make him put in a few thousand hours doing something positive for society. Call it eight thousand hours; four years' full time work doing something constructive, during which time he would be housed and fed (but not imprisoned) in a controlled environment, and would receive extensive therapy to come to terms with what he did and teach him how to do better.
It's not a total answer. I doubt there is one. The ideal thing would be to somehow unmake the tragedy, but that's not possible so what are we left with? Not much, really. Not much that will do any good.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:44 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's not a total answer. I doubt there is one. The ideal thing would be to somehow unmake the tragedy, but that's not possible so what are we left with? Not much, really. Not much that will do any good.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:44 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Apologies would be appropriate if the victims' families wanted them, of course, and if he could be said to be genuinely contrite which I guess he is. I guess I was projecting a little when I said they'd be meaningless. They'd be meaningless to me, but maybe not to someone else.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:46 AM on December 13, 2018
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:46 AM on December 13, 2018
I may be misunderstanding, but I thought part of restorative justice was that the victims (in this case, the families) received some restoration from the process. If there's nothing in it for them but to accept that the material cause of their loss isn't being treated unjustly, that seems like almost nothing in the face of their grief. Is this just the sort of scenario where restorative justice doesn't work well? If you burn down my barn, restorative justice looks something like you rebuilding it to the extent you're able. If you take my child's life, what restoration is possible for me?
posted by fatbird at 11:54 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by fatbird at 11:54 AM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Well, how do you restore a dead child? You don't. What, should he pay them blood money? Does he even have money? That's where I think restorative justice falls down. I haven't personally used the phrase "restorative justice" in this thread, and that's why. I was just trying to answer your question in terms of, "What do I think would be an appropriate way to move forward with regard to Max Harris?"
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:01 PM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:01 PM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
The probable cause document is here, edeezy, and talks about the stairway being blocked off as part of preparations. I don't have time to dig it up right now, but you can find stuff out there about exactly what the preparations were in that case, which is moving all the Almenas' furniture and personal possessions to the back to make more room for dancing and to keep people out of them. The second floor was their residence. I don't know specifically if the area was screened off as well as the stairs being blocked by furniture, you'd have to find the fire department report or DA's report for that I expect.
posted by tavella at 12:13 PM on December 13, 2018
posted by tavella at 12:13 PM on December 13, 2018
This... is a very strange conversation to read on MeFi. I lived in an illegal Oakland warehouse, and helped put on illegal raves in various illegal places for years. We rented huge diesel generators to throw parties with professional lights and giant sound in the wilderness, up winding gravel roads. We threw 800-1000 unpermitted person events in ours' and other peoples' warehouses. I know the sorts of people that do this kind of thing pretty well.
The spaces we built in our warehouse were to code, though not permitted. Our emergency exit lights worked, our PG and E bill was paid. There were always plenty of people around these spaces and parties of various experience and education who were quite conscious of Shit That Could Go Wrong and How To Avoid It and What to Do If It Did. Some of the people I threw parties with years ago even told Almena his warehouse was a deathtrap. Being an artist or freak or free spirit or weed farmer is not an excuse to be a total dumbass.
That said, I'm not sure throwing the book at Harris is the way you prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future. I feel he's responsible; I don't believe that a lengthy jail sentence serves much purpose other than vengeance.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:14 PM on December 13, 2018 [19 favorites]
The spaces we built in our warehouse were to code, though not permitted. Our emergency exit lights worked, our PG and E bill was paid. There were always plenty of people around these spaces and parties of various experience and education who were quite conscious of Shit That Could Go Wrong and How To Avoid It and What to Do If It Did. Some of the people I threw parties with years ago even told Almena his warehouse was a deathtrap. Being an artist or freak or free spirit or weed farmer is not an excuse to be a total dumbass.
That said, I'm not sure throwing the book at Harris is the way you prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future. I feel he's responsible; I don't believe that a lengthy jail sentence serves much purpose other than vengeance.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:14 PM on December 13, 2018 [19 favorites]
For any one interested, the local art collective in Santa Fe - Meow Wolf - started a DIY fund "Through the DIY Fund, small community art spaces receive grant money to pay for everything from infrastructure improvements to rent." They started it after the Ghost Ship fire.
posted by BooneTheCowboyToy at 12:25 PM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by BooneTheCowboyToy at 12:25 PM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
Well, how do you restore a dead child? You don't.
I don't mean to be callous to your position, Anticipation, but this does seem to move us into the territory of "if you hit someone with your car, back up and finish the job."
posted by fatbird at 1:05 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't mean to be callous to your position, Anticipation, but this does seem to move us into the territory of "if you hit someone with your car, back up and finish the job."
posted by fatbird at 1:05 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm the grandson of a fire safety professional. I can't go into a building without noting at least two escape routes, and counting rows of whatever between me and those routes in case I have to find them in the dark. Even before the Ghost Ship fire there were venues where I was not comfortable, or wouldn't let myself go further into than some relatively short distance from the primary exit.
I've also done a whole lot of work on my own house, including rewiring the whole darned thing, and up until recently had a love/love relationship with my town building department. However, they recently changed inspectors, and the new one came out to look at some work and gave me a whole bunch of requirements that... to be charitable, I can't find in the code. I mean, I've done it, because I've never said "gee, I wish I had more resistance to ground", but everything I can find, including the original equipment manufacturer's manuals, says that what they asked for isn't necessary. And at least one of the mandates is likely gonna get disabled after it's inspected. So I understand when people sometimes have mixed feelings about municipal process.
But this freakin' article. It leaves me with a whole lot of questions about the process of journalism. Why this article? Why now? Conversations about restorative justice aside, what's the decision process that led to so many words portraying him as an innocent naif? This whole thing felt just a little too smooth, a little too slick, a little too like there's a deeper PR process at work.
So, a chaser: Tessa Hulls in The Rumps: Spotlight: My dead friend's favorite book.
posted by straw at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2018 [16 favorites]
I've also done a whole lot of work on my own house, including rewiring the whole darned thing, and up until recently had a love/love relationship with my town building department. However, they recently changed inspectors, and the new one came out to look at some work and gave me a whole bunch of requirements that... to be charitable, I can't find in the code. I mean, I've done it, because I've never said "gee, I wish I had more resistance to ground", but everything I can find, including the original equipment manufacturer's manuals, says that what they asked for isn't necessary. And at least one of the mandates is likely gonna get disabled after it's inspected. So I understand when people sometimes have mixed feelings about municipal process.
But this freakin' article. It leaves me with a whole lot of questions about the process of journalism. Why this article? Why now? Conversations about restorative justice aside, what's the decision process that led to so many words portraying him as an innocent naif? This whole thing felt just a little too smooth, a little too slick, a little too like there's a deeper PR process at work.
So, a chaser: Tessa Hulls in The Rumps: Spotlight: My dead friend's favorite book.
posted by straw at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2018 [16 favorites]
It doesn’t necessarily sound to me like Harris understands his culpability? The article mentions he sees himself as a “scapegoat” and quotes him as saying, “It’s like being a survivor of war and then someone telling you that the whole war was your fault.” Well, no, it’s not Harris’s fault alone as the landlords and ESPECIALLY Alemena share blame, but Harris is clearly responsible for this particular event, and while he takes pains to show “remorse,” I’m not certain he agrees he’s responsible. I’m not certain he wouldn’t go to the next art space, as Almena has and as several people above have said their city’s art class has done after being regulated out of existence, and do something stupid again.
And before we have to go through the whole “I think the issue is that people who blame Harris and think he should be jailed are the MeFites who are The Man and the rest of us who don’t are the Creative Class Who ‘Gets It,’” please know I’ve been going to warehouse shit like this since I was sixteen. Honestly, I look back and am fucking appalled by how unsafe most of these places were and how easily everyone I know and love could have died there. If that makes me some uncool “owner class” asshole, fine, whatever? I’d rather be a grown-up who recognizes these places should be shut the fuck down because kids are stupid and risking their lives, and people who just want to keep creating and creating and creating these spaces even after Ghost Ship are criminals.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 1:34 PM on December 13, 2018 [11 favorites]
And before we have to go through the whole “I think the issue is that people who blame Harris and think he should be jailed are the MeFites who are The Man and the rest of us who don’t are the Creative Class Who ‘Gets It,’” please know I’ve been going to warehouse shit like this since I was sixteen. Honestly, I look back and am fucking appalled by how unsafe most of these places were and how easily everyone I know and love could have died there. If that makes me some uncool “owner class” asshole, fine, whatever? I’d rather be a grown-up who recognizes these places should be shut the fuck down because kids are stupid and risking their lives, and people who just want to keep creating and creating and creating these spaces even after Ghost Ship are criminals.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 1:34 PM on December 13, 2018 [11 favorites]
I don't mean to be callous to your position, Anticipation, but this does seem to move us into the territory of "if you hit someone with your car, back up and finish the job."
I'm not sure how you got there from Anticipation's statement. No amount of money can restore a dead child and even if it could, Harris has nothing to take. Punitive prison time won't restore a dead child either. So the question is whether society is better off with him behind bars for decades or not.
posted by Candleman at 1:43 PM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure how you got there from Anticipation's statement. No amount of money can restore a dead child and even if it could, Harris has nothing to take. Punitive prison time won't restore a dead child either. So the question is whether society is better off with him behind bars for decades or not.
posted by Candleman at 1:43 PM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm not making the connection you're making there, fatbird. What I'm saying is just that when something awful and unrecoverable has happened—like a death—there's no fixing it. You can't make the family whole again. Nobody can make it better. The best we can do is try to stop it from happening again to someone else, and provide support for the bereaved. I'd be in favor of Harris providing whatever support the families wanted, but what does he have to give?
Sometimes life is just fucking awful for bad reasons and there's no help for it. Vengeance won't help. Apologies won't help. What is there? Sometimes the answer is nothing. That's not to minimize the enormity of the tragedy, it's just acknowledging the bleak reality that what happened can't be undone.
We have this notion that when something bad happens, justice will be done and that will balance it out. That's what the scales symbolize, right? But life isn't like that. It just isn't, at least I don't see it that way. It's worse than that—sometimes there is no way to restore the balance.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 1:46 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sometimes life is just fucking awful for bad reasons and there's no help for it. Vengeance won't help. Apologies won't help. What is there? Sometimes the answer is nothing. That's not to minimize the enormity of the tragedy, it's just acknowledging the bleak reality that what happened can't be undone.
We have this notion that when something bad happens, justice will be done and that will balance it out. That's what the scales symbolize, right? But life isn't like that. It just isn't, at least I don't see it that way. It's worse than that—sometimes there is no way to restore the balance.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 1:46 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
I guess I disagree with you, Ono. Call me a criminal, but places like that create a huge amount of joy and belonging for people who sometimes have very little of either elsewhere in their lives. They've certainly saved more people from suicide than they've killed by fire. I think they should be made safe, absolutely—like the spaces that onierodynia partied in, for instance—but I recognize that the underground nature of these spaces makes it hard to consistently achieve that. Simply shutting them all down (now that we're all responsible adults, safely out of the years in our lives when we relied on places like this and the communities they enable to stay sane) sounds like a safe, simple answer (although they're already illegal and yet they persist, so good luck I guess) but I'm not sure that the safe, simple answer is the right one.
I think ultimately what has to happen is that our society needs to become less bleak and inhumane and devoid of any kind of organic, non-capitalism-driven creativity such that spaces like this can come out of the shadows and into the light. That will never happen in our lifetimes though, so what I guess I would hope for is for more awareness and more education within the communities that create these spaces and events. But I don't think "shut them all down and throw the organizers in jail" is the right response here, even if it could be done. I'm sure I'll be excoriated now as a child murderer by proxy, but I do think that artists' collectives and underground party scenes should continue to exist. I think people should get smarter about how they run them, though. It's harder to change a culture than to just ban it, but it can happen.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:12 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think ultimately what has to happen is that our society needs to become less bleak and inhumane and devoid of any kind of organic, non-capitalism-driven creativity such that spaces like this can come out of the shadows and into the light. That will never happen in our lifetimes though, so what I guess I would hope for is for more awareness and more education within the communities that create these spaces and events. But I don't think "shut them all down and throw the organizers in jail" is the right response here, even if it could be done. I'm sure I'll be excoriated now as a child murderer by proxy, but I do think that artists' collectives and underground party scenes should continue to exist. I think people should get smarter about how they run them, though. It's harder to change a culture than to just ban it, but it can happen.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:12 PM on December 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think ultimately what has to happen is that our society needs to become less bleak and inhumane and devoid of any kind of organic, non-capitalism-driven creativity
That's less likely than jail time that leads to more people following safety regulations, but good luck, I guess.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 2:17 PM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's less likely than jail time that leads to more people following safety regulations, but good luck, I guess.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 2:17 PM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's less likely than jail time that leads to more people following safety regulations
I think the question is: what is more likely to lead to more people following safety regulations? Jail time, or more inspectors providing DIY ways and outreach to come in more reasonably safe compliance?
Right now, in most places across the country, there isn't someone you can call out for free to get a friendly, non-punitory inspection. You can get a punitory inspection where they issue you a ticket for everything, but there's no one who can say 'oh yeah this place is a deathtrap, let me work with you to get this up to speed.'
And that's a problem, because it puts a divide in, where you can't ask for help without condemning your building. That's building into the system a reason that these places stay deathtraps.
posted by corb at 2:28 PM on December 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
I think the question is: what is more likely to lead to more people following safety regulations? Jail time, or more inspectors providing DIY ways and outreach to come in more reasonably safe compliance?
Right now, in most places across the country, there isn't someone you can call out for free to get a friendly, non-punitory inspection. You can get a punitory inspection where they issue you a ticket for everything, but there's no one who can say 'oh yeah this place is a deathtrap, let me work with you to get this up to speed.'
And that's a problem, because it puts a divide in, where you can't ask for help without condemning your building. That's building into the system a reason that these places stay deathtraps.
posted by corb at 2:28 PM on December 13, 2018 [10 favorites]
The "back up and finish him off" connection is that if I injure someone I can support them until they're better; if they're dead, it becomes an "unrecoverable" injury and since I can't resurrect them, I'm off the hook. This is a non-trivial problem: where blood money gets paid, it's usually less in case of death than it is in case of infirmity, where ongoing support is the norm, thus incentivizing finishing the job.
But that was glib. What I'm reacting to is this response of "it's just so awful, that we can't do anything about it for the victims, so nothing for them." For one thing, jailing Harris does serve a non-vengeful purpose: he can't organize more parties or other events, and he's plainly a creature of these scenes that are already hazardous to begin with. It serves as a deterrent and object lesson in why you do bother to make your space and events safe and secure. I think if we had jails like Norway where even serious murderers are treated humanely and rehabilitatively, it would be a no-brainer to put Harris into that system--which is almost what Anticipation is suggesting.
posted by fatbird at 2:29 PM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
But that was glib. What I'm reacting to is this response of "it's just so awful, that we can't do anything about it for the victims, so nothing for them." For one thing, jailing Harris does serve a non-vengeful purpose: he can't organize more parties or other events, and he's plainly a creature of these scenes that are already hazardous to begin with. It serves as a deterrent and object lesson in why you do bother to make your space and events safe and secure. I think if we had jails like Norway where even serious murderers are treated humanely and rehabilitatively, it would be a no-brainer to put Harris into that system--which is almost what Anticipation is suggesting.
posted by fatbird at 2:29 PM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think some of the argument here is that those of us who are anti punishment might sound like we are anti repercussion. I accept responsibility for bringing up restoration and not returning to clarify what I mean—restoration here doesn’t look like necromancy, and it doesn’t look like physical torture, it looks like recognition of the ways that marginalization and financial undervaluation of “weird” spaces ends up with people who don’t know what the fuck they’re doing and are vulnerable to exploitation sometimes being the only people creating and running these spaces...restoration is left as working, as a community, to figure out how the hell to prevent tragedies like this from happening.
I don’t know shit about electricity! I’ve built some sketchy fucking exits in the name of Art Being The Point! definitely been in situations where someone pointed out that the layout of the stage electrics or whatever is Super Dangerous and we needed their help figuring out wtf to do instead. Yay for that learning experience, but it was just a damn coincidence that they were there before something shitty and unanticipated by our artpunk asses killed us all. As a point of comparison, equally notably has been the need for diverse inclusion of types of bodies—building accessible points of egress to not exclude folks with disabilities wasn’t on my cohort of able bodied artpunx radars until it was! We thought we were totally on it, because we were good about mental health stuff, but our blind spots (so to speak) were as invisible to us as the reasons why our work was valuable is invisible to the larger culture.
Negligence is usually a result of ignorance or oversight. It’s weird to end in a “see something, say/do something” place, but...collectives require that we share our information and experiences as well as that we do due dillegence as far as maintaining our spaces, because humans are negligent! That’s why we have institutions! But when the institutions come with all this other baggage, power dynamics and economics and lack of value of the end result, bad stuff will happen because we individually lack that institutional knowledge. This tragedy has created a lot of awareness in art communities about gaining and sharing this knowledge, but also has resulted in some serious fear of even trying to put together fringe communal space—that fear is healthy, but we don’t know what we don’t know. I haven’t seen workshops springing up about basic safety code stuff, for example; though hopefully it’s happening, it seems those with the institutional knowledge desperately needed to prevent further harm are more interested in punishing the offenders and finger wagging the ignorant, and as we don’t have a cultural setting for transmission of this stuff outside government sanctioned inspections this just looks like a profound, tragic failure of community more than an act of punishable criminality.
posted by zinful at 2:39 PM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don’t know shit about electricity! I’ve built some sketchy fucking exits in the name of Art Being The Point! definitely been in situations where someone pointed out that the layout of the stage electrics or whatever is Super Dangerous and we needed their help figuring out wtf to do instead. Yay for that learning experience, but it was just a damn coincidence that they were there before something shitty and unanticipated by our artpunk asses killed us all. As a point of comparison, equally notably has been the need for diverse inclusion of types of bodies—building accessible points of egress to not exclude folks with disabilities wasn’t on my cohort of able bodied artpunx radars until it was! We thought we were totally on it, because we were good about mental health stuff, but our blind spots (so to speak) were as invisible to us as the reasons why our work was valuable is invisible to the larger culture.
Negligence is usually a result of ignorance or oversight. It’s weird to end in a “see something, say/do something” place, but...collectives require that we share our information and experiences as well as that we do due dillegence as far as maintaining our spaces, because humans are negligent! That’s why we have institutions! But when the institutions come with all this other baggage, power dynamics and economics and lack of value of the end result, bad stuff will happen because we individually lack that institutional knowledge. This tragedy has created a lot of awareness in art communities about gaining and sharing this knowledge, but also has resulted in some serious fear of even trying to put together fringe communal space—that fear is healthy, but we don’t know what we don’t know. I haven’t seen workshops springing up about basic safety code stuff, for example; though hopefully it’s happening, it seems those with the institutional knowledge desperately needed to prevent further harm are more interested in punishing the offenders and finger wagging the ignorant, and as we don’t have a cultural setting for transmission of this stuff outside government sanctioned inspections this just looks like a profound, tragic failure of community more than an act of punishable criminality.
posted by zinful at 2:39 PM on December 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
It almost feels like missing the point to focus so much on how much time Harris spends in jail. He's going to trial; he might get off the hook completely, except for the time he's already been incarcerated (and that's an issue with the justice system as a whole, not specific to how we prosecute building code violations). I found the article's POV to be very sympathetic to Harris, and in that light it's easy to see him as a dupe who got completely rolled by Almena and bears significantly less responsibility for the loss of life that occurred.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:46 PM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:46 PM on December 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
The OP article was obviously biased in painting a sympathetic picture of Max Harris, but the purpose to my reading was not to build a case that he was not culpable, but to highlight the disparity/hypocrisy in punishing him when so many other parties, who are just as if not MORE culpable, are being charged with either nothing, or civil lawsuits, instead of sitting in jail for 36 counts of involuntary manslaughter. The Nov 1 article on the dispute between the actual landlord and the electrician [re-link] is illuminating.
The responsibility is distributed along the chain of ownership: The landlord (Chor Ng) > Property Managers (Kai and Eva Ng) > Sub-leasee (Derick Almena) > Sub-sub-leasee and unofficial coordinator (Harris). Tangentially you have the electrician (Benjamin Cannon) who charged the Ng's over $60k in repairs but still apparently failed to adequately wire the place, as well as municipal authorities who failed to either notice or enforce zoning infractions, among other things. The people who are actually being punished out of all this are, of course, the lowest members of this hierarchy, the artists themselves, who lived there and lost friends and all their possessions in the same fire (not to equate possessions with human life).
The goal in adjudicating this case is probably to prevent a similar situation from arising in the future, since (as noted) events of the past cannot be altered. Whether that means societal change in artistic remuneration; punishing the entire chain of ownership (as a deterrent to negligent rent-seeking), or punishing no one, then it is what it is. Punishing Harris (and Almena) and no one else is not justice.
posted by smokysunday at 2:46 PM on December 13, 2018 [12 favorites]
The responsibility is distributed along the chain of ownership: The landlord (Chor Ng) > Property Managers (Kai and Eva Ng) > Sub-leasee (Derick Almena) > Sub-sub-leasee and unofficial coordinator (Harris). Tangentially you have the electrician (Benjamin Cannon) who charged the Ng's over $60k in repairs but still apparently failed to adequately wire the place, as well as municipal authorities who failed to either notice or enforce zoning infractions, among other things. The people who are actually being punished out of all this are, of course, the lowest members of this hierarchy, the artists themselves, who lived there and lost friends and all their possessions in the same fire (not to equate possessions with human life).
The goal in adjudicating this case is probably to prevent a similar situation from arising in the future, since (as noted) events of the past cannot be altered. Whether that means societal change in artistic remuneration; punishing the entire chain of ownership (as a deterrent to negligent rent-seeking), or punishing no one, then it is what it is. Punishing Harris (and Almena) and no one else is not justice.
posted by smokysunday at 2:46 PM on December 13, 2018 [12 favorites]
I feel struck by both the landlord and the city, and I worry that if their outcomes avoid culpability at some level, it will lead to a lack of change in the two groups who have the resources to help prevent future issues as an institution.
A new crop of 20 somethings in 5 years may have no memory of Ghost Ship. It's not that I don't blame people at Ghost Ship for poor choices, but those choices could have been better if the City had done it's job better, and if the landlord had made choices with safety in mind when it was recommended.
posted by gryftir at 2:53 PM on December 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
A new crop of 20 somethings in 5 years may have no memory of Ghost Ship. It's not that I don't blame people at Ghost Ship for poor choices, but those choices could have been better if the City had done it's job better, and if the landlord had made choices with safety in mind when it was recommended.
posted by gryftir at 2:53 PM on December 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
I feel struck by both the landlord and the city, and I worry that if their outcomes avoid culpability at some level, it will lead to a lack of change in the two groups who have the resources to help prevent future issues as an institution.
That's a good bet.
posted by invitapriore at 3:16 PM on December 13, 2018
That's a good bet.
posted by invitapriore at 3:16 PM on December 13, 2018
Call me a criminal, but places like that create a huge amount of joy and belonging for people who sometimes have very little of either elsewhere in their lives. They've certainly saved more people from suicide than they've killed by fire.
thanks again, Anticipating of A, for saving me from trying to make a point. Did going "underground" as a young man save my life? Probably not. But it sure as hell gave it a lot more meaning at a time when pretty much nothing "above ground" was. Some people think we should ban motor racing, other dangerous sports and recreations. I happen to think we desperately need them -- that they represent cultural pressure release valves, allow us (some of us) to explore edges, blow fuses, expend crucial energy that might otherwise get turned inward, erupt in other perhaps more toxic ways.
posted by philip-random at 4:15 PM on December 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
thanks again, Anticipating of A, for saving me from trying to make a point. Did going "underground" as a young man save my life? Probably not. But it sure as hell gave it a lot more meaning at a time when pretty much nothing "above ground" was. Some people think we should ban motor racing, other dangerous sports and recreations. I happen to think we desperately need them -- that they represent cultural pressure release valves, allow us (some of us) to explore edges, blow fuses, expend crucial energy that might otherwise get turned inward, erupt in other perhaps more toxic ways.
posted by philip-random at 4:15 PM on December 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
The free, friendly, non-punitory inspection service that corb mentioned would be a lifesaver. There's a case going through planning in Toronto where a (thoughtful) landlord bought a low-imcome triplex, did all the fire and electrical inspections, and the fire Marshall's report tipped off the city that the house had been subdivided illegally. Despite letters of support from all the neighbours and the councillor, the city's rejecting any change of use and expects the landlord to turf the tenants.
posted by scruss at 7:46 PM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by scruss at 7:46 PM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
The free, friendly, non-punitory inspection service that corb mentioned would be a lifesaver.
talk about a non-partisan broad-based social justice initiative I could get behind.
posted by philip-random at 10:30 PM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
talk about a non-partisan broad-based social justice initiative I could get behind.
posted by philip-random at 10:30 PM on December 13, 2018 [6 favorites]
and workable more or less immediately on a local level -- wherever we find ourselves.
posted by philip-random at 10:30 PM on December 13, 2018
posted by philip-random at 10:30 PM on December 13, 2018
First: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
None of my friends died at Ghost Ship, but not all of my friends can say the same. Over a decade ago I was one of the first members of the Noisebridge hackerspace in San Francisco, which has tons of parallels with Ghost Ship: anarchism, a charismatic narcissist (and, as we later found out, serial rapist) co-founder, hostility to rules (NB's "our only rule is 'Be Excellent To Each Other' echos Ghost Ship's single-ruled mock contract, 'Be Unconditionally Awesome'). In kind but not in degree, Noisebridge was (and, I strongly suspect, still is today) a firetrap: fire exits nailed shut, broken fire extinguishers presented as operable ones, no smoke detectors, and a general culture that is antagonistic to anyone who wants to fix things in a way that require money or, worse, behavior change.
I've held off posting this comment, but the comments here prompt me to offer a point of view that some might not be aware of. I'm talking about Noisebridge, but undoubtedly much of it applies to Ghost Ship. I've edited it to keep it as short as possible, so if I don't comment on some aspect please assume common sense/good faith.
People are protective of spaces like Ghost Ship and Noisebridge because there are few social, creative spaces that are free. As vocally critical as I was until I resigned from my second term on the board of directors, I often self-censored myself when it came to criticizing NB publicly. I see that same protectiveness (and, frankly, excuse-making) here too.
The safety issues aren't entirely (or even mostly) due to a lack of money or ignorance, but to a toxic culture that is against rules or structure. Rewiring costs tens of thousands of dollars. Smoke detectors, keeping fire exits visible and unblocked, and getting rid of space heaters and hot plates don't.
But the anarchism character of the place means no one is in charge (or rather, everyone is in charge, which amounts to the same thing) of these critical, basic things. Everyone wants to make art and ardunio projects. No one wants to do the dishes or make sure the fire extinguishers are inspected.
Everyone will agree safety is important, but actually making that happen (and continue to happen) means putting your foot down. But telling someone it isn't negotiable whether they can hang decorations from the fire sprinklers makes you the control-freak self-appointed sheriff. You can make it happen, but it means one more person who kinda doesn't like you. And the only authority you have in these Lord-of-the-Flies spaces is what you can get for yourself. (This suits the narcissists and bullies quite well; they get by on charisma and social pull while rules can only be leveraged against them.)
As a well-spoken 5' 9" man I had privilege and pull in a space as white as a typical Burning Man camp, but I was well aware that I could only rock the boat so much. And spaces like these constantly drive away the sensible people who'd support common sense changes; only the bullies or unconcerned remain. Noisebridge is the most viciously conservative organization I've ever been a part of.
Harris is criminally negligent, but he IS a scapegoat in that he's at the bottom of people to blame. Even if he had the motivation and foresight, I'm not sure how much actual power he had to make the basic safety changes without alienating himself from the culture. In the end, I dropped out of Noisebridge entirely. But I don't think it'd work out well for me if Noisebridge had had a fatal fire before then.
Two things I do know: I don't hold any romantic notions about these creative spaces or the patriarchal-masquerading-as-bohemian types they attract. Just because they don't have wealth and power doesn't mean they don't have abuse and toxicity. And I'd trade a hundred Noisebridges and Ghost Ships for thirty six human lives.
posted by AlSweigart at 3:07 PM on December 14, 2018 [35 favorites]
None of my friends died at Ghost Ship, but not all of my friends can say the same. Over a decade ago I was one of the first members of the Noisebridge hackerspace in San Francisco, which has tons of parallels with Ghost Ship: anarchism, a charismatic narcissist (and, as we later found out, serial rapist) co-founder, hostility to rules (NB's "our only rule is 'Be Excellent To Each Other' echos Ghost Ship's single-ruled mock contract, 'Be Unconditionally Awesome'). In kind but not in degree, Noisebridge was (and, I strongly suspect, still is today) a firetrap: fire exits nailed shut, broken fire extinguishers presented as operable ones, no smoke detectors, and a general culture that is antagonistic to anyone who wants to fix things in a way that require money or, worse, behavior change.
I've held off posting this comment, but the comments here prompt me to offer a point of view that some might not be aware of. I'm talking about Noisebridge, but undoubtedly much of it applies to Ghost Ship. I've edited it to keep it as short as possible, so if I don't comment on some aspect please assume common sense/good faith.
People are protective of spaces like Ghost Ship and Noisebridge because there are few social, creative spaces that are free. As vocally critical as I was until I resigned from my second term on the board of directors, I often self-censored myself when it came to criticizing NB publicly. I see that same protectiveness (and, frankly, excuse-making) here too.
The safety issues aren't entirely (or even mostly) due to a lack of money or ignorance, but to a toxic culture that is against rules or structure. Rewiring costs tens of thousands of dollars. Smoke detectors, keeping fire exits visible and unblocked, and getting rid of space heaters and hot plates don't.
But the anarchism character of the place means no one is in charge (or rather, everyone is in charge, which amounts to the same thing) of these critical, basic things. Everyone wants to make art and ardunio projects. No one wants to do the dishes or make sure the fire extinguishers are inspected.
Everyone will agree safety is important, but actually making that happen (and continue to happen) means putting your foot down. But telling someone it isn't negotiable whether they can hang decorations from the fire sprinklers makes you the control-freak self-appointed sheriff. You can make it happen, but it means one more person who kinda doesn't like you. And the only authority you have in these Lord-of-the-Flies spaces is what you can get for yourself. (This suits the narcissists and bullies quite well; they get by on charisma and social pull while rules can only be leveraged against them.)
As a well-spoken 5' 9" man I had privilege and pull in a space as white as a typical Burning Man camp, but I was well aware that I could only rock the boat so much. And spaces like these constantly drive away the sensible people who'd support common sense changes; only the bullies or unconcerned remain. Noisebridge is the most viciously conservative organization I've ever been a part of.
Harris is criminally negligent, but he IS a scapegoat in that he's at the bottom of people to blame. Even if he had the motivation and foresight, I'm not sure how much actual power he had to make the basic safety changes without alienating himself from the culture. In the end, I dropped out of Noisebridge entirely. But I don't think it'd work out well for me if Noisebridge had had a fatal fire before then.
Two things I do know: I don't hold any romantic notions about these creative spaces or the patriarchal-masquerading-as-bohemian types they attract. Just because they don't have wealth and power doesn't mean they don't have abuse and toxicity. And I'd trade a hundred Noisebridges and Ghost Ships for thirty six human lives.
posted by AlSweigart at 3:07 PM on December 14, 2018 [35 favorites]
(Brief update: I stopped by Noisebridge today. It's 5,200 square foot space. I found zero smoke detectors, and one of the bright red fire extinguisher signs was covered up by an anarchy flag.)
posted by AlSweigart at 4:05 PM on December 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 4:05 PM on December 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
I know I’m late to the party here but I cannot stop thinking about this article. To me, the CRIMINAL culpability is 100% on the landlord and safety offices who did not crack down once problems were identified. It is an insane injustice to me that Almena and Harris were charged, let alone jailed, for a crime here-and that is a hard thing to feel, given the horrifically tragic circumstances and the overall description of almena and his behavior. But maybe it’s moreso outrageous to me because the landlord and safety board responsible were NOT charged criminally. Just because some people who run illegal DIY spaces are very safe and mindful of fire codes doesn’t mean that these artists, who were not, bear the responsibility for what happened there (legally I mean-file as many civil suits as you want). But the people who receive money to provide a safe private space (being used as intended) and to report or shut down spaces that are not safe, are getting that money BECAUSE they know better and are responsible for those duties. The detail about Harris blocking the stairway, and EVERY part about Almena, are terrible and yet do not abdicate the landlord and the city of the BARE MINIMUM responsibilities of their jobs.
I feel so terrible for these families.
posted by Kemma80 at 5:06 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I feel so terrible for these families.
posted by Kemma80 at 5:06 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
AlSweigart: When I first came to San Francisco I spent a lot of time at Noisebridge. I had no awareness of possible venue fire issues, but I may have been spoilt from having come from Australia where things like risk assessments are way more common. It's weird to hear about how conservative Noisebridge is, but I guess not entirely surprising.
I wonder if corb's idea would work if it wasn't run by a governmental agency but much more a community-led initiative (like an IRL version of the DIY Harm Reduction guide I linked above). As the development of that guide demonstrates, there are people within these communities that do have the skills and know-how to make such assessments while also being sympathetic to the values espoused by such spaces.
posted by divabat at 5:17 PM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
I wonder if corb's idea would work if it wasn't run by a governmental agency but much more a community-led initiative (like an IRL version of the DIY Harm Reduction guide I linked above). As the development of that guide demonstrates, there are people within these communities that do have the skills and know-how to make such assessments while also being sympathetic to the values espoused by such spaces.
posted by divabat at 5:17 PM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
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posted by brundlefly at 2:23 PM on December 12, 2018 [9 favorites]