Children, it turns out, "do not scale"
December 18, 2018 5:17 PM Subscribe
CW for new parents of >1: Three Australian researchers find that yes, having a second child is much, much harder than just having one. Depressing conclusions include mental health - especially for mothers - and more entrenched gender roles.
What can be done? Parental leave doesn't get a mention (in Australia, maternity leave is *somewhat* reasonable); even part-time work doesn't adequately address these stressors.
For those still deciding whether to try for a 2nd child, or feeling uneasy about raising a "singleton", 350.org founder and former New Yorker staff writer Bill McKibben has some views.
What can be done? Parental leave doesn't get a mention (in Australia, maternity leave is *somewhat* reasonable); even part-time work doesn't adequately address these stressors.
For those still deciding whether to try for a 2nd child, or feeling uneasy about raising a "singleton", 350.org founder and former New Yorker staff writer Bill McKibben has some views.
In my personal experience, the jump from one child to two children was not as bad as the jump from two children to three children. I do not recommend having three children.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:49 PM on December 18, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:49 PM on December 18, 2018 [22 favorites]
I could imagine that parenting pressure is not linear. The second child may increase parenting pressure by only 50% of the first in some clinically quantified way, but that could have a much larger-than-50% increase in mental stress. Because, for example, the less psychic bandwidth you have available, the far greater effect losing a little bit of it is.
I’m sure an economist or a psychologist would have the vocabulary to describe all of this better than me. But for a simplistic example which illustrates what I’m getting at:
imagine a parent has 100 units of psychic energy available. The first child occupies 40 of those, leaving 60 for the rest of life. Maybe, depending upon one’s life (other obligations, affluence, support), 60 is more than enough to cope well.
But then comes the second kid, which requires only 25 more psychic units (not as much as the first, but still significant). This results in only 35 remaining psychic units available for dealing with the rest of life, which might not be enough.
posted by darkstar at 6:02 PM on December 18, 2018 [12 favorites]
I’m sure an economist or a psychologist would have the vocabulary to describe all of this better than me. But for a simplistic example which illustrates what I’m getting at:
imagine a parent has 100 units of psychic energy available. The first child occupies 40 of those, leaving 60 for the rest of life. Maybe, depending upon one’s life (other obligations, affluence, support), 60 is more than enough to cope well.
But then comes the second kid, which requires only 25 more psychic units (not as much as the first, but still significant). This results in only 35 remaining psychic units available for dealing with the rest of life, which might not be enough.
posted by darkstar at 6:02 PM on December 18, 2018 [12 favorites]
Two children are not just as easy as one (who says that? I've never heard that)
Everyone says it.
All the fucking time.
It drives me fucking crazy.
posted by ragtag at 6:03 PM on December 18, 2018 [15 favorites]
Everyone says it.
All the fucking time.
It drives me fucking crazy.
posted by ragtag at 6:03 PM on December 18, 2018 [15 favorites]
I feel like I learned this lesson before having my first kid when we got a second dog. (We then went on to have one child and one child only.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:11 PM on December 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:11 PM on December 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
The point of the research which I found fascinating is that it goes against all this endlessly-held-forth view that "the 2nd one is easier because you already have skills".
It also aligns with my experience: additional children are in fact multipliers. Skills are only a small part of it; time is the bigger problem, along with things like physical and mental and emotional energy -- these things are all finite.
We don't talk about this because what kind of person would grumble about their lovely children?
The only people who talk openly about effects of >1 kids are the people for whom it is *easy*. And this research suggests they may actually be the minority.
posted by 8k at 6:16 PM on December 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
It also aligns with my experience: additional children are in fact multipliers. Skills are only a small part of it; time is the bigger problem, along with things like physical and mental and emotional energy -- these things are all finite.
We don't talk about this because what kind of person would grumble about their lovely children?
The only people who talk openly about effects of >1 kids are the people for whom it is *easy*. And this research suggests they may actually be the minority.
posted by 8k at 6:16 PM on December 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
I’m 45, and my parents and virtually all of my relatives and family friends had *at least* two kids, with close to three probably being the average. My circle of friends and relatives is almost done with having children (my wife and I had none by choice) and a grand total of one couple has three children, with the average being probably 1.5. So I wonder how our Boomer parents, which is to say quite often probably mostly our mothers, had all those kids without going broke and/or crazy.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:18 PM on December 18, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:18 PM on December 18, 2018 [8 favorites]
Huh. I'm also pretty amazed to hear that anyone would claim that two is just as easy as one. In fact, the received wisdom amongst those I talk to is that two is kind of the hardest (or least optimal, in some sense), because after two they can start to take care of each other.
Anyway, it seems like the biggest factor is simply the nature of the child/children. I've met plenty of chill kids who seem like half the work of high-demand kids.
posted by Alex404 at 6:31 PM on December 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Anyway, it seems like the biggest factor is simply the nature of the child/children. I've met plenty of chill kids who seem like half the work of high-demand kids.
posted by Alex404 at 6:31 PM on December 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
"Collectivizing childcare" is my new dream. Yes please! We've only got one kid, but I'd have lost my damn mind years ago if not for school buses (thank you, French public school system) and lunch programs (relatively expensive, but a treasured indulgence to secure my sanity). One kid is entirely manageable with structural support like this. I still can't imagine having two, at least not with both parents working full-time in relatively high stress jobs.
posted by Go Banana at 6:51 PM on December 18, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Go Banana at 6:51 PM on December 18, 2018 [11 favorites]
I usually tell my friends who are about to have their second child that having two is only twice as much work as one
posted by piyushnz at 7:00 PM on December 18, 2018
posted by piyushnz at 7:00 PM on December 18, 2018
Never have more children than you have hands.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:17 PM on December 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:17 PM on December 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
Jesus. I have none. My mom had seven. I... don't. Know. How, she?
posted by oflinkey at 7:26 PM on December 18, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by oflinkey at 7:26 PM on December 18, 2018 [20 favorites]
No kids, Mom raised 6, with a husband that was drunk and abusive. How has this woman not been canonized?!
posted by evilDoug at 7:29 PM on December 18, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 7:29 PM on December 18, 2018 [16 favorites]
Our second child has been much easier than the first. It's life that's much, much harder.
The only aphorism that I was familiar with for multiple kids was "one is none and two is ten", which I didn't find to be true, but I think there is psuedo-wisdom out there to support any viewpoint you want regarding raising children.
posted by skewed at 7:36 PM on December 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
The only aphorism that I was familiar with for multiple kids was "one is none and two is ten", which I didn't find to be true, but I think there is psuedo-wisdom out there to support any viewpoint you want regarding raising children.
posted by skewed at 7:36 PM on December 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
Sorry I am late to the thread. I have four kids, you see, and three of them are finally in bed. *collapses*
posted by wenestvedt at 7:43 PM on December 18, 2018 [33 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 7:43 PM on December 18, 2018 [33 favorites]
I do feel like after two they start to scale. Two is a crazy level of chaos (at least my two were!); 3 doesn't really make it worse, except that you can no longer use man-to-man and are forced into zone defense. As my mom said about #4, "We were already outnumbered, how much worse could it get?" (There have been some studies that average child IQ falls from 1 child, to 2, to 3, but after that it goes back up and levels off because after that they're just fending for themselves.)
It's funny because when I watch my sister's toddler (her first and so far only), I carefully wash his pacifier clean whenever he drops it and sternly portion his food and urge him to eat his entire meal, but with MY toddler, who is my third, I'm like, "Oh, whatever, it's not the first cat hair you've tasted" when she drops her pacifier and as long as she's not grabbing alcohol or choking hazards I figure whatever she's snatching off other people's plates is probably fine, or if she's being an airitarian that day, well, WHATEVER, she's not going to starve.
"So I wonder how our Boomer parents, which is to say quite often probably mostly our mothers, had all those kids without going broke and/or crazy."
A family wage for dad, which let mom be a full-time carer of the children.
Also way, way, way less intensive parenting. "Go outside and don't come home until dinner!"
--
My husband and my BFF are both onlies and I have no beef at all with onlies and they both had happy childhoods, and I'm grateful that I'm part of each of their chosen families, because they did get to choose, and I get to be the emergency contact for my BFF's kids and to race for emergency babysitting when there's a crisis, and I love that and I love that we've been BFFs for 27 years and counting. At the same time, I'm one of four and I'm so incredibly grateful to be one of four. My mother always said that the greatest gift she thought she could give us was siblings, and I don't know that I'd take that as gospel, but definitely siblings are the only other survivors of the insane asylum known as "your parents," and that is a wonderful thing to have in adulthood. With that said, there's no guarantee that your kids will grow up to even like each other, let alone end up laughing to the point of tears as I did with two of my siblings last night. I wrote a lot of wills when I was practicing law, and man are there a lot of messed-up sibling relationships out there.
I did tell my husband when we decided to have the first one that we HAD to have a second one, because I felt like the laser focus of my neuroses on one child would be A LOT, and he or she would need an ally in the war against "mom is nuts." The ob/gyn told me I needed 24 months between deliveries after a C-section so we cranked out child number two 25 months later, because really, I feel like as a mother I'm A LOT for one child to handle.
Anyway a BFF of 27 years standing is VERY NEARLY the same thing as a sibling so get you one of those if you feel like you missed having a sibling. :)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:44 PM on December 18, 2018 [38 favorites]
It's funny because when I watch my sister's toddler (her first and so far only), I carefully wash his pacifier clean whenever he drops it and sternly portion his food and urge him to eat his entire meal, but with MY toddler, who is my third, I'm like, "Oh, whatever, it's not the first cat hair you've tasted" when she drops her pacifier and as long as she's not grabbing alcohol or choking hazards I figure whatever she's snatching off other people's plates is probably fine, or if she's being an airitarian that day, well, WHATEVER, she's not going to starve.
"So I wonder how our Boomer parents, which is to say quite often probably mostly our mothers, had all those kids without going broke and/or crazy."
A family wage for dad, which let mom be a full-time carer of the children.
Also way, way, way less intensive parenting. "Go outside and don't come home until dinner!"
--
My husband and my BFF are both onlies and I have no beef at all with onlies and they both had happy childhoods, and I'm grateful that I'm part of each of their chosen families, because they did get to choose, and I get to be the emergency contact for my BFF's kids and to race for emergency babysitting when there's a crisis, and I love that and I love that we've been BFFs for 27 years and counting. At the same time, I'm one of four and I'm so incredibly grateful to be one of four. My mother always said that the greatest gift she thought she could give us was siblings, and I don't know that I'd take that as gospel, but definitely siblings are the only other survivors of the insane asylum known as "your parents," and that is a wonderful thing to have in adulthood. With that said, there's no guarantee that your kids will grow up to even like each other, let alone end up laughing to the point of tears as I did with two of my siblings last night. I wrote a lot of wills when I was practicing law, and man are there a lot of messed-up sibling relationships out there.
I did tell my husband when we decided to have the first one that we HAD to have a second one, because I felt like the laser focus of my neuroses on one child would be A LOT, and he or she would need an ally in the war against "mom is nuts." The ob/gyn told me I needed 24 months between deliveries after a C-section so we cranked out child number two 25 months later, because really, I feel like as a mother I'm A LOT for one child to handle.
Anyway a BFF of 27 years standing is VERY NEARLY the same thing as a sibling so get you one of those if you feel like you missed having a sibling. :)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:44 PM on December 18, 2018 [38 favorites]
*rouses briefly* Don’t trust the words of anyone about your lived experience, when they have fewer kids than you. *collapses again, snoring heavily*
posted by wenestvedt at 7:44 PM on December 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 7:44 PM on December 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
Meanwhile, a second cat (if a kitten) just makes 4x the chaos, which is really about 10x the entertainment value.
posted by LucretiusJones at 8:14 PM on December 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by LucretiusJones at 8:14 PM on December 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
piyushnz: "I usually tell my friends who are about to have their second child that having two is only twice as much work as one"
I think you've underestimated.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:21 PM on December 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think you've underestimated.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:21 PM on December 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm told it actually starts getting easier after the fifteeneth
posted by Merus at 8:21 PM on December 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Merus at 8:21 PM on December 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm the oldest of three, and man, my parents were tired by the time my youngest sister was grown. She's nearly ten years younger than me (nearly five younger than middle sis) and there are all kinds of measures of parental time and attention, from 'number of baby pictures' to 'time Dad spent making sure she saw all the movies he thought were Important' where the difference between her and me is pretty stark.
Also, I was allegedly a pretty easygoing baby and toddler, while middle sis was decidedly not, so I suspect that for a minute there my parents thought they had this whole parenting thing on lock, how hard could a second kid be? And then middle sis didn't sleep through the night for six months, right as I started elementary school and turned out to have no social skills, anxiety, and ADHD. Whoops?
posted by nonasuch at 8:25 PM on December 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
Also, I was allegedly a pretty easygoing baby and toddler, while middle sis was decidedly not, so I suspect that for a minute there my parents thought they had this whole parenting thing on lock, how hard could a second kid be? And then middle sis didn't sleep through the night for six months, right as I started elementary school and turned out to have no social skills, anxiety, and ADHD. Whoops?
posted by nonasuch at 8:25 PM on December 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
"Since poor post-partum mental health can lead to poor outcomes for children, it is in the national interest to reduce stressors so that mothers, children and families can thrive.'
Or, I don't know, why not improve their mental health for their own sake! Proof that once you become a mum, society really does only value you to the extent that you can serve everyone else, you really fail to become a person worth care in your own right. And yes, I realise they did throw the word mothers in there, but it really seems like an afterthought.
posted by Jubey at 8:27 PM on December 18, 2018 [39 favorites]
Or, I don't know, why not improve their mental health for their own sake! Proof that once you become a mum, society really does only value you to the extent that you can serve everyone else, you really fail to become a person worth care in your own right. And yes, I realise they did throw the word mothers in there, but it really seems like an afterthought.
posted by Jubey at 8:27 PM on December 18, 2018 [39 favorites]
I think it's relevant to note that the amount of time that parents spend on child care activities has more than doubled since the 1960s, despite the fact that families have shrunk at the same time that two-income and single-parent households have multiplied. Indeed, on a per-child basis the time cost of children has probably about tripled. If you're only expected to spend 30 parent-minutes per day in all interactions with a child, then having 3 or 4 is doable. If you're expected to spend a couple of hours of parent time per day per child, then 2 or more children becomes a real strain on time resources.
posted by drlith at 8:33 PM on December 18, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by drlith at 8:33 PM on December 18, 2018 [16 favorites]
What about two at the same time :-(
posted by trialex at 8:48 PM on December 18, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by trialex at 8:48 PM on December 18, 2018 [9 favorites]
I had 2 and it was a lot of work !. Another thing, smart kids are way more work! You can’t even discipline smart kids the same way every time. I’m not sure if two was harder or easier than one. More expensive, sure. It is also harder if the kids have different food likes and dislikes. In the study did they factor in gender? I think gender figures in all of this.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 8:57 PM on December 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 8:57 PM on December 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
I am a twin and I think it must be the absolute worst - the 1st kid provides no extra knowledge that can be applied to the 2nd, no possibility to offload care, no hand-me-downs, go through stages at same time so the effects reinforce. I am proud of my mom for surviving
posted by scose at 9:13 PM on December 18, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by scose at 9:13 PM on December 18, 2018 [13 favorites]
How did/do parents manage having a lot of kids?
By not giving a fuck.
Seriously. The parent of five kids does not give a fuck about each individual kid as much as the parent of two kids gives to each of theirs. A nice way of saying this is, the many-kid parent manages via a parenting style of reduced individual attention and reliance on delegated parenting (i.e. oldest kid looks after youngest) that looks alien/foreign to many people.
But I say, they just didn’t / don’t give a fuck about effective parenting. They’re playing zone defense instead of man-to-man, and who cares that Timmy is falling behind in math, I got shit to do, and I’m sure the oldest girl will parent him plenty.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:16 PM on December 18, 2018 [16 favorites]
By not giving a fuck.
Seriously. The parent of five kids does not give a fuck about each individual kid as much as the parent of two kids gives to each of theirs. A nice way of saying this is, the many-kid parent manages via a parenting style of reduced individual attention and reliance on delegated parenting (i.e. oldest kid looks after youngest) that looks alien/foreign to many people.
But I say, they just didn’t / don’t give a fuck about effective parenting. They’re playing zone defense instead of man-to-man, and who cares that Timmy is falling behind in math, I got shit to do, and I’m sure the oldest girl will parent him plenty.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:16 PM on December 18, 2018 [16 favorites]
It would interesting to unpack the cultural assumptions wrapped around "scaling" children. It sounds like white upper-middle class Silicon Valley-esque techno-babble.
Anyway, the article here is a long-winded way of saying that generally speaking women in Australia (and probably other countries like the United States) do not have enough time to do all that is expected of them both in the workplace and at home when they have a second child, because of lack of support from their male spouses. Their mental health suffers.
The problem is not that "two is too many", but that women are expected to do too much, and that they need more support from both their spouses, and from government and society.
The problem with the logic of the article is that all that needs to happen to make women happy is to have just one child. However, this addresses none of the gender imbalance in society.
Which is a pretty chilling conclusion for this article to make.
posted by JamesBay at 9:17 PM on December 18, 2018 [43 favorites]
Anyway, the article here is a long-winded way of saying that generally speaking women in Australia (and probably other countries like the United States) do not have enough time to do all that is expected of them both in the workplace and at home when they have a second child, because of lack of support from their male spouses. Their mental health suffers.
The problem is not that "two is too many", but that women are expected to do too much, and that they need more support from both their spouses, and from government and society.
The problem with the logic of the article is that all that needs to happen to make women happy is to have just one child. However, this addresses none of the gender imbalance in society.
Which is a pretty chilling conclusion for this article to make.
posted by JamesBay at 9:17 PM on December 18, 2018 [43 favorites]
"But I say, they just didn’t / don’t give a fuck about effective parenting. They’re playing zone defense instead of man-to-man, and who cares that Timmy is falling behind in math, I got shit to do, and I’m sure the oldest girl will parent him plenty."
This is definitely one way it DOES work (hello Duggars), but it's not the way it HAS to work. I think there are some benefits to being less helicopter-parented than current parenting trends suggest is optimal, and I think a lot of parents of several are able to fairly accurately triage their children's needs. Almost all of my K-12 classmates were onlies or one of two, and they were constantly bemused by my family of four children, but I felt like I had two advantages from it -- first, I learned very young that my stuff is NOT the stuff the world revolves around. If there were three child events on the night of my mid-fall junior high band concert, and the other two were a doctor's appointment and a teacher conference, well, I was not going to have a parent in attendance because the world did not actually revolve around me. They'd move heaven and earth to make it happen, but if it wasn't going to happen, it wasn't going to happen, and that was no big deal. And second, when my thing was important, like when I had a serious medical issue my junior year of high school, my entire family shifted to center me and I had not just two parents but three siblings who were all pitching in. Or when I had a graduation concert, I had the loudest cheering section in the auditorium because my thing was important, so I had not just two parents there, but three siblings as well.
I never felt like I was lacking parenting when parenting was necessary (and I know exactly how hard my mom in particular worked to make sure that was so), and having three siblings meant I had a way more robust support system than most of my peers ... I remember my four-year-old brother bringing me popsicles after I had my wisdom teeth out at 16, he got one and I got one. He was a little more useful the summer I had a new baby and my husband had a broken collarbone and my brother was in college and could come stay with us for two weeks so someone other than me could lift the baby (which literally no one else could do because who other than college students and retired people have a free two weeks?), but HEY, even at four, popsicle delivery is an important service for the newly toothless!
But friends would ask me, do you feel like you got 1/4 of the love or 1/4 of the attention, and I was always like, no, I actually get FIVE TIMES the love and attention when it actually matters.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:13 PM on December 18, 2018 [55 favorites]
This is definitely one way it DOES work (hello Duggars), but it's not the way it HAS to work. I think there are some benefits to being less helicopter-parented than current parenting trends suggest is optimal, and I think a lot of parents of several are able to fairly accurately triage their children's needs. Almost all of my K-12 classmates were onlies or one of two, and they were constantly bemused by my family of four children, but I felt like I had two advantages from it -- first, I learned very young that my stuff is NOT the stuff the world revolves around. If there were three child events on the night of my mid-fall junior high band concert, and the other two were a doctor's appointment and a teacher conference, well, I was not going to have a parent in attendance because the world did not actually revolve around me. They'd move heaven and earth to make it happen, but if it wasn't going to happen, it wasn't going to happen, and that was no big deal. And second, when my thing was important, like when I had a serious medical issue my junior year of high school, my entire family shifted to center me and I had not just two parents but three siblings who were all pitching in. Or when I had a graduation concert, I had the loudest cheering section in the auditorium because my thing was important, so I had not just two parents there, but three siblings as well.
I never felt like I was lacking parenting when parenting was necessary (and I know exactly how hard my mom in particular worked to make sure that was so), and having three siblings meant I had a way more robust support system than most of my peers ... I remember my four-year-old brother bringing me popsicles after I had my wisdom teeth out at 16, he got one and I got one. He was a little more useful the summer I had a new baby and my husband had a broken collarbone and my brother was in college and could come stay with us for two weeks so someone other than me could lift the baby (which literally no one else could do because who other than college students and retired people have a free two weeks?), but HEY, even at four, popsicle delivery is an important service for the newly toothless!
But friends would ask me, do you feel like you got 1/4 of the love or 1/4 of the attention, and I was always like, no, I actually get FIVE TIMES the love and attention when it actually matters.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:13 PM on December 18, 2018 [55 favorites]
But I say, they just didn’t / don’t give a fuck about effective parenting. They’re playing zone defense instead of man-to-man, and who cares that Timmy is falling behind in math, I got shit to do, and I’m sure the oldest girl will parent him plenty.
Maybe you ought to think two or three times about how much shit you want to talk about the mothers of people you don't even know?
posted by praemunire at 10:29 PM on December 18, 2018 [19 favorites]
Maybe you ought to think two or three times about how much shit you want to talk about the mothers of people you don't even know?
posted by praemunire at 10:29 PM on December 18, 2018 [19 favorites]
That's funny, cause all I remember is the occasional friend envying that I had a sibling and them saying they wished they had an older/younger brother/sister; they never raised the issue of receiving less love.
I think having siblings is precious. There's something to be said about the conditions of a post-nuclear family society that effectively takes away choices in how one wants to and can raise a family. It's a better framework than the dehumanizing language of scaling your children. We're not machines.
posted by polymodus at 10:30 PM on December 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think having siblings is precious. There's something to be said about the conditions of a post-nuclear family society that effectively takes away choices in how one wants to and can raise a family. It's a better framework than the dehumanizing language of scaling your children. We're not machines.
posted by polymodus at 10:30 PM on December 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure if helicopter parenting is a thing, though. I mean, of course there are parents who attempt to exert control and discourage autonomy, but the big difference I've noticed between parent-child relationships these days compared to when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s is that parents now are more engaged.
Elementary schools in particular have become more of a community hub, with parents (or grandparents) hanging out and chatting on the playground before school, and then hanging out and maybe playing basketball or soccer with the kids after school. Parents walking or biking with their kids to school.
When I was growing up the only time my parents came to school was if I was in the principal's office, or if there was a school play and we were in it.
We also walked by ourselves to school starting in Grade 1, which is not something I would ever let me elementary school-age sons do. The reason is because the streets are a lot more crowded and dangerous in this city than they were 30-40 years ago. Crossing the street is really really dangerous, even for me as an adult.
Autonomy can be fostered in other ways, such as helping develop good EQ and communication skills.
I haven't really seen too many helicopter parents, even among parents of "singles". And there doesn't seem to be much to the idea that children with more siblings are, say, less self-centered and possess more empathy than only children.
posted by JamesBay at 11:06 PM on December 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
Elementary schools in particular have become more of a community hub, with parents (or grandparents) hanging out and chatting on the playground before school, and then hanging out and maybe playing basketball or soccer with the kids after school. Parents walking or biking with their kids to school.
When I was growing up the only time my parents came to school was if I was in the principal's office, or if there was a school play and we were in it.
We also walked by ourselves to school starting in Grade 1, which is not something I would ever let me elementary school-age sons do. The reason is because the streets are a lot more crowded and dangerous in this city than they were 30-40 years ago. Crossing the street is really really dangerous, even for me as an adult.
Autonomy can be fostered in other ways, such as helping develop good EQ and communication skills.
I haven't really seen too many helicopter parents, even among parents of "singles". And there doesn't seem to be much to the idea that children with more siblings are, say, less self-centered and possess more empathy than only children.
posted by JamesBay at 11:06 PM on December 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
"But I say, they just didn’t / don’t give a fuck about effective parenting. They’re playing zone defense instead of man-to-man, and who cares that Timmy is falling behind in math, I got shit to do, and I’m sure the oldest girl will parent him plenty."
I'm one of six and it sure felt like they were managing man to man somehow. The only reason dad had to stop helping with math homework is that he was trying to help us do things totally unlike the actual exercises we were given, what with 30-ish years of math teaching updates since he'd learned it.
(which literally no one else could do because who other than college students and retired people have a free two weeks?)
I did that for my sister by taking a deliberately timed break between two jobs, it was great for both of us.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:40 AM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm one of six and it sure felt like they were managing man to man somehow. The only reason dad had to stop helping with math homework is that he was trying to help us do things totally unlike the actual exercises we were given, what with 30-ish years of math teaching updates since he'd learned it.
(which literally no one else could do because who other than college students and retired people have a free two weeks?)
I did that for my sister by taking a deliberately timed break between two jobs, it was great for both of us.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:40 AM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
"But I say, they just didn’t / don’t give a fuck about effective parenting. They’re playing zone defense instead of man-to-man, and who cares that Timmy is falling behind in math, I got shit to do, and I’m sure the oldest girl will parent him plenty."
This is exactly how both my parents were raised - my mother had thirteen siblings and my dad had nine.
It was not ideal for turning out well-adjusted, productive, or happy people.
posted by winna at 1:54 AM on December 19, 2018 [15 favorites]
This is exactly how both my parents were raised - my mother had thirteen siblings and my dad had nine.
It was not ideal for turning out well-adjusted, productive, or happy people.
posted by winna at 1:54 AM on December 19, 2018 [15 favorites]
Seconding scose's comment about twins from the perspective of a parent of twins. Everything costs twice as much simultaneously, because you can't buy it once and reuse it a couple of years later. In practice, childcare costs are *more* than doubled, because when you do find a placement that can take both children it'll be somewhere that's more expensive than average.(*) The strain on sick leave and carer's leave is increased because they don't get sick *simultaneously*, one gets the illness as the other one is recovering. And of course you're still paying for the childcare even when the children are absent due to illness.
Because our boys are non-identical and have distinct personalities, any variances in behaviour are magnified, as they're measured both against the norm for the room, but specifically against their brother, so we're constantly being told by childcare workers that either G or H was 'quite unsettled' or 'very emotional' (they never tell you what emotion, mind. Was the child covetous? Was it ennui? A profound malaise? Or have they just yet to master hiding their indignation at your inanity behind a mask of equanimity?)
We're lucky that we're able to access some discounted services and goods from our local Multiple Birth Association, and also to access a special families-of-multiples sales group, which helps somewhat with accessing bundles of cheap kid's clothes and toys and whatnot, but it's hell on wheels pretty much all the time. I'm incredibly glad that we're both fortunate enough to work for the state, which is hands down the most family-friendly workplace environment I've ever seen in terms of taking time off at short notice. And flex-time is a godsend. I honestly don't know how I'd have managed if I were still in the private sector. Getting a part-day off with the insurance company I used to work for, even in advance, was like pulling teeth.
Australia is a bit of a complete shitshow a lot of the time. But when I read about the pressures on parents of twins in America it makes me shudder in horror. I don't think we'd be able to handle twins without the child care rebate. And Medicare is a national treasure that we don't appreciate nearly as much as we should. It almost makes dealing with Centrelink worthwhile.
* Nearly forgot. Once, early in the process of looking for childcare, we were offered a placement by a nearby centre. They could give us three days for each child. Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. For one of the children. Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday for the other. Needless to say the children attend elsewhere. I mean, what the fuck even?
posted by MarchHare at 2:07 AM on December 19, 2018 [26 favorites]
Because our boys are non-identical and have distinct personalities, any variances in behaviour are magnified, as they're measured both against the norm for the room, but specifically against their brother, so we're constantly being told by childcare workers that either G or H was 'quite unsettled' or 'very emotional' (they never tell you what emotion, mind. Was the child covetous? Was it ennui? A profound malaise? Or have they just yet to master hiding their indignation at your inanity behind a mask of equanimity?)
We're lucky that we're able to access some discounted services and goods from our local Multiple Birth Association, and also to access a special families-of-multiples sales group, which helps somewhat with accessing bundles of cheap kid's clothes and toys and whatnot, but it's hell on wheels pretty much all the time. I'm incredibly glad that we're both fortunate enough to work for the state, which is hands down the most family-friendly workplace environment I've ever seen in terms of taking time off at short notice. And flex-time is a godsend. I honestly don't know how I'd have managed if I were still in the private sector. Getting a part-day off with the insurance company I used to work for, even in advance, was like pulling teeth.
Australia is a bit of a complete shitshow a lot of the time. But when I read about the pressures on parents of twins in America it makes me shudder in horror. I don't think we'd be able to handle twins without the child care rebate. And Medicare is a national treasure that we don't appreciate nearly as much as we should. It almost makes dealing with Centrelink worthwhile.
* Nearly forgot. Once, early in the process of looking for childcare, we were offered a placement by a nearby centre. They could give us three days for each child. Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. For one of the children. Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday for the other. Needless to say the children attend elsewhere. I mean, what the fuck even?
posted by MarchHare at 2:07 AM on December 19, 2018 [26 favorites]
I made the case to only have one child, pointing out that with one child each of us can take a break now and again. With two children, you end up splitting off with one kid each and never get a moment's rest. I just inferred from watching two-child families in the wild that the transport logistics alone made the costs too high for working parents without a nanny or au pair.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 2:39 AM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 2:39 AM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh yeah, transport logistics are a PITA. The twins meant a huge pram that didn't fit in either of our hatchbacks, so that meant rolling my partner's lovely leased high-spec hatch over into a bigger, less efficient SUV, and mothballing my little wholly paid off, heavily depreciated, increasingly rare Mk 6 FiST until the boys are big enough to climb unaided into the back seat of a three door car with booster seats while I mostly commute, instead, in a five door Focus that's bigger, thirstier, and more expensive to insure.
And, you know, I railed against buying an SUV on general principles. And still do. But having changed a nappy in the rear load area of the Sorrento vs changing a nappy in the much lower and convoluted load area of the Focus, I have to admit that the SUV is... adequate and fit for purpose. But it represents a financial and aesthetic indignity that burns us both. It BUUUURNS!
posted by MarchHare at 3:02 AM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
And, you know, I railed against buying an SUV on general principles. And still do. But having changed a nappy in the rear load area of the Sorrento vs changing a nappy in the much lower and convoluted load area of the Focus, I have to admit that the SUV is... adequate and fit for purpose. But it represents a financial and aesthetic indignity that burns us both. It BUUUURNS!
posted by MarchHare at 3:02 AM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
"But I say, they just didn’t / don’t give a fuck about effective parenting. They’re playing zone defense instead of man-to-man, and who cares that Timmy is falling behind in math, I got shit to do, and I’m sure the oldest girl will parent him plenty."
That seems to be how my sister-in-law is doing it, as an outsider observing her raise four children. She's homeschooling and doesn't seem overly concerned with her kids meeting milestones, learning to read, etc.
I mean I assume she gives each child one to one time, and she doesn't work outside the home, but her spouse definitely offloads the bulk of the parenting to her, and she definitely seems overwhelmed most of the time I see her.
I have one biological child and that is all I want. Parenting is overwhelming and my child has high social needs so that means he just WANTS lots of daycare which suits me just fine.
posted by crunchy potato at 3:40 AM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
That seems to be how my sister-in-law is doing it, as an outsider observing her raise four children. She's homeschooling and doesn't seem overly concerned with her kids meeting milestones, learning to read, etc.
I mean I assume she gives each child one to one time, and she doesn't work outside the home, but her spouse definitely offloads the bulk of the parenting to her, and she definitely seems overwhelmed most of the time I see her.
I have one biological child and that is all I want. Parenting is overwhelming and my child has high social needs so that means he just WANTS lots of daycare which suits me just fine.
posted by crunchy potato at 3:40 AM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
The problem is not that "two is too many", but that women are expected to do too much, and that they need more support from both their spouses, and from government and society.
I think this is really important. Two is more work but in my family, I was on bedrest on and off, then mostly on, from 22-34 weeks pregnant with my younger son. So my husband, who had been getting better and better anyway but still wasn’t on par with me, had to manage everything for our household. This pretty much permanently established us as equal parents not just in reality but most importantly in the eyes of our oldest son and the school. My one year maternity leave (our choice for me to take it but also money) meant a slight backslide but not terrible. And it has made parenting, our marriage, and life so much better.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:49 AM on December 19, 2018 [9 favorites]
I think this is really important. Two is more work but in my family, I was on bedrest on and off, then mostly on, from 22-34 weeks pregnant with my younger son. So my husband, who had been getting better and better anyway but still wasn’t on par with me, had to manage everything for our household. This pretty much permanently established us as equal parents not just in reality but most importantly in the eyes of our oldest son and the school. My one year maternity leave (our choice for me to take it but also money) meant a slight backslide but not terrible. And it has made parenting, our marriage, and life so much better.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:49 AM on December 19, 2018 [9 favorites]
As one might guess, there is a German saying for this: "Ein Kind its kein Kind." One kid is no kid. And boy howdy is it true. At the same time, you know, fuckit, in for a penny in for a metric ton.
posted by From Bklyn at 4:16 AM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by From Bklyn at 4:16 AM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I’ve never heard that two children are no harder than one. I have heard that the second child is easier than the first, but that claim seems to take into account only kid #2, rather than kid #2 in the context of MOM DAD LOOKIT ME KID #1 MOOOOM, and it makes the assumption that kid #2 has no major health issues or developmental concerns.
I’ve heard a lot of assumptions that parents who have one child surely want at least one more - you have a kid because you love kids, right? And if you love kids, why stop at one? And there’s the overarching assumption that Kids Are Worth It, with “it” meaning anything and everything, the exact type and scale of sacrifice brushed aside.
And the idea of having a second child to give your first a sibling has come up a lot in my experience, and it baffles me. We live in a city where it’s easy to justify being one-and-done (3+ bedroom apartments are rare and obscenely expensive, and there’s parks and neighborhood kids to play with), but it comes up even here.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:42 AM on December 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
I’ve heard a lot of assumptions that parents who have one child surely want at least one more - you have a kid because you love kids, right? And if you love kids, why stop at one? And there’s the overarching assumption that Kids Are Worth It, with “it” meaning anything and everything, the exact type and scale of sacrifice brushed aside.
And the idea of having a second child to give your first a sibling has come up a lot in my experience, and it baffles me. We live in a city where it’s easy to justify being one-and-done (3+ bedroom apartments are rare and obscenely expensive, and there’s parks and neighborhood kids to play with), but it comes up even here.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:42 AM on December 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
In my experience kids are exponential to the n^n. Taking care of two kids is like taking care of four kids, like so:
1^1
2^2 = 4
3^3 = 9
And so on. Budget and plan accordingly. After the third kid, one might as well start a Daycare.
posted by omegar at 5:29 AM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
1^1
2^2 = 4
3^3 = 9
And so on. Budget and plan accordingly. After the third kid, one might as well start a Daycare.
posted by omegar at 5:29 AM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think there are some benefits to being less helicopter-parented than current parenting trends suggest is optimal, and I think a lot of parents of several are able to fairly accurately triage their children's needs.
Doesn't this sort of gamble on nothing going too wrong? Like if one kid turns out to be special needs in some way that requires more ongoing work, or gets sick, or something terrible happens that you can't control, that is another massive multiplier.
I dunno, I don't have kids, don't plan on them, and I'm an only child (largely because my mom was one of ten). From where I sit this all looks insane. Communal living with multiple adults (extended families, blood or chosen) in dense neighborhoods with an actual sense of community and access to an existing social safety net infrastructure seems like the only sane way to do any of this, so hats off to you poor exhausted people trying to do it without that. I hope your kids appreciate it, eventually.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:51 AM on December 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
Doesn't this sort of gamble on nothing going too wrong? Like if one kid turns out to be special needs in some way that requires more ongoing work, or gets sick, or something terrible happens that you can't control, that is another massive multiplier.
I dunno, I don't have kids, don't plan on them, and I'm an only child (largely because my mom was one of ten). From where I sit this all looks insane. Communal living with multiple adults (extended families, blood or chosen) in dense neighborhoods with an actual sense of community and access to an existing social safety net infrastructure seems like the only sane way to do any of this, so hats off to you poor exhausted people trying to do it without that. I hope your kids appreciate it, eventually.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:51 AM on December 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
My parents never wanted me to be an only child, and as a child I agreed, and as an adult it turns out this entire sibling thing was a giant mistake.
posted by jeather at 6:11 AM on December 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by jeather at 6:11 AM on December 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
My mom was one of ten kids, and on top of that her dad died pretty young, when many of her younger siblings were still kids. She has spent most of her adulthood trying to arrange her life to be the opposite of what she experienced growing up. She got married at 19 just to get out. There was no actual abuse or anything, just an entirely overwhelmed mother who ran out of fucks like three kids in.
Mom and all of her siblings have <4 kids each themselves, with the average probably more like 2.5. Growing up, I always thought that I was an only child because mom was so traumatized by the experience that she went the total other way, but when I got older she revealed to me that actually she had always wanted three kids herself, but they decided they couldn't afford it and stopped at one. Technically they could have afforded more than one, but I think by "afford it" what mom really means is "afford to care for them all in a way that I was never really cared for as a child."
In Western countries that have mostly lost the tradition of multigenerational households with a team of grandparents and maiden aunts and older cousins, there are limited paths towards having large families. One of those paths is "everyone fend for themselves and godspeed" and the other seems to be "parents literally killing themsevles."
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:11 AM on December 19, 2018 [11 favorites]
Mom and all of her siblings have <4 kids each themselves, with the average probably more like 2.5. Growing up, I always thought that I was an only child because mom was so traumatized by the experience that she went the total other way, but when I got older she revealed to me that actually she had always wanted three kids herself, but they decided they couldn't afford it and stopped at one. Technically they could have afforded more than one, but I think by "afford it" what mom really means is "afford to care for them all in a way that I was never really cared for as a child."
In Western countries that have mostly lost the tradition of multigenerational households with a team of grandparents and maiden aunts and older cousins, there are limited paths towards having large families. One of those paths is "everyone fend for themselves and godspeed" and the other seems to be "parents literally killing themsevles."
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:11 AM on December 19, 2018 [11 favorites]
"I’ve heard a lot of assumptions that parents who have one child surely want at least one more - you have a kid because you love kids, right? And if you love kids, why stop at one?"
Yeah this is so weird and annoying, and it goes with the bizarre assumption that you love all phases of children. Like, I'm glad I came from a big family and I'm glad I have three kids, but that's just me, not a universal human condition, and many families are delighted and complete with their one and that's okay. And again, love my kids, but omg is the newborn phase borrrrrring and thankless and everyone's like "eeee! you get another teeny baby!" but inside I'm just waiting for them to be toddlers when they're great fun. And then about six years old I find them very difficult to take (I think it's their realization that "non-stop jackass" is a possible life choice), but they get interesting again around 8. Junior high kids drive me nuts but I love teenagers. And so on.
"I think there are some benefits to being less helicopter-parented than current parenting trends suggest is optimal, and I think a lot of parents of several are able to fairly accurately triage their children's needs."
"Doesn't this sort of gamble on nothing going too wrong? Like if one kid turns out to be special needs in some way that requires more ongoing work, or gets sick, or something terrible happens that you can't control, that is another massive multiplier. "
I think there's a difference between helicopter parenting (fighting all your kid's battles for them, doing their homework for them, calling their college professors, making sure they never face negative consequences for bad actions) and the necessary work of parenting a special needs child.
But I'm the parent of a special needs child myself, with some quite intense parenting demands, and I'm pretty hooked in to special needs parenting groups so I know a lot of other special needs parents, with kids with both more and less intense needs than mine, and I will say that as a group, I find special needs parents more conscious of NOT helicoptering precisely because independence is so much more difficult for our children and because we have to think so carefully about every aspect of parenting (and discuss it with a team of support professionals!). In fact I've gotten guff from parents of typically-developing children who think I'm not being overprotective ENOUGH of my special needs child, because I don't hover over him at the playground and I let him go on short neighborhood bike rides by himself.
Anyway, yeah, it's a big multiplier, but it's also, after the initial shock wears off, just part of your life and you get on with it. I will say, that was a huge determiner in us deciding to move closer to family, because I spend 25 hours a week just on one child's routine therapies, and having family members close by makes the logistics a lot easier if I have to take my special needs child to a specialist appointment or something and need someone to watch the toddler or drop my other kid at camp. The routine stuff I can keep up with and shuffle into a workable schedule, but one-offs create unreasonable chaos because there is no slack in my life. And it's hard to find babysitters who are comfortable with special needs kids in case I ever want to leave the house without all my little friends, so family's very helpful for that.
Also frequently my weekend free time activity is naps.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:55 AM on December 19, 2018 [16 favorites]
Yeah this is so weird and annoying, and it goes with the bizarre assumption that you love all phases of children. Like, I'm glad I came from a big family and I'm glad I have three kids, but that's just me, not a universal human condition, and many families are delighted and complete with their one and that's okay. And again, love my kids, but omg is the newborn phase borrrrrring and thankless and everyone's like "eeee! you get another teeny baby!" but inside I'm just waiting for them to be toddlers when they're great fun. And then about six years old I find them very difficult to take (I think it's their realization that "non-stop jackass" is a possible life choice), but they get interesting again around 8. Junior high kids drive me nuts but I love teenagers. And so on.
"I think there are some benefits to being less helicopter-parented than current parenting trends suggest is optimal, and I think a lot of parents of several are able to fairly accurately triage their children's needs."
"Doesn't this sort of gamble on nothing going too wrong? Like if one kid turns out to be special needs in some way that requires more ongoing work, or gets sick, or something terrible happens that you can't control, that is another massive multiplier. "
I think there's a difference between helicopter parenting (fighting all your kid's battles for them, doing their homework for them, calling their college professors, making sure they never face negative consequences for bad actions) and the necessary work of parenting a special needs child.
But I'm the parent of a special needs child myself, with some quite intense parenting demands, and I'm pretty hooked in to special needs parenting groups so I know a lot of other special needs parents, with kids with both more and less intense needs than mine, and I will say that as a group, I find special needs parents more conscious of NOT helicoptering precisely because independence is so much more difficult for our children and because we have to think so carefully about every aspect of parenting (and discuss it with a team of support professionals!). In fact I've gotten guff from parents of typically-developing children who think I'm not being overprotective ENOUGH of my special needs child, because I don't hover over him at the playground and I let him go on short neighborhood bike rides by himself.
Anyway, yeah, it's a big multiplier, but it's also, after the initial shock wears off, just part of your life and you get on with it. I will say, that was a huge determiner in us deciding to move closer to family, because I spend 25 hours a week just on one child's routine therapies, and having family members close by makes the logistics a lot easier if I have to take my special needs child to a specialist appointment or something and need someone to watch the toddler or drop my other kid at camp. The routine stuff I can keep up with and shuffle into a workable schedule, but one-offs create unreasonable chaos because there is no slack in my life. And it's hard to find babysitters who are comfortable with special needs kids in case I ever want to leave the house without all my little friends, so family's very helpful for that.
Also frequently my weekend free time activity is naps.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:55 AM on December 19, 2018 [16 favorites]
In my personal experience, the jump from one child to two children was not as bad as the jump from two children to three children. I do not recommend having three children.
I have often thought that one of the worst times in my mother's life must have been when she had a 4-year-old, a 2-year-old, and a baby. And Dad worked all the time and she didn't drive.
[I am the 4th child. It seems amazing I was ever born, although Mother often assured me that the others were just as much of an accident as I was.]
[She was joking. I think.]
posted by JanetLand at 7:03 AM on December 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
I have often thought that one of the worst times in my mother's life must have been when she had a 4-year-old, a 2-year-old, and a baby. And Dad worked all the time and she didn't drive.
[I am the 4th child. It seems amazing I was ever born, although Mother often assured me that the others were just as much of an accident as I was.]
[She was joking. I think.]
posted by JanetLand at 7:03 AM on December 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
The comments here are mostly validating my and Mr. Objects life choice to buy twice as much house as we actually needed 2 years ago, and move in our good friends family in. Two more adults and three teenagers around was a shock at first, but now we're down to one teenager, and 7 month old Baby Objects has greatly benefited from having 4 parental adults and an interested "older brother" around. We also make sure to pass her around to friends every chance we get. So far everyone we meet is amazed at how well socialized she is. I am profoundly grateful to my friends, because having my own baby has taught me...that I'm not really that fond of babies. The friends love babies! So it's all working out so far.
I honestly do not know how one woman (often), or two parents (more often nowadays), manages more than two children at once. I mean, it's legitimetly a problem I mull over, and confounds me. My mother had 11 siblings and my dad had 5. Neither of them turned out what I would call a well-adjusted fully-functioning adult. I only have two half-sisters, but I can't call my relationships with them "close" or "happy".
I want my daughter to grow up knowing she's loved and cherished and with 100% fewer therapy bills than I or my husband have had. I think being an only is the best way to accomplish this. I can only pray I'm not mistaken.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 7:40 AM on December 19, 2018 [6 favorites]
I honestly do not know how one woman (often), or two parents (more often nowadays), manages more than two children at once. I mean, it's legitimetly a problem I mull over, and confounds me. My mother had 11 siblings and my dad had 5. Neither of them turned out what I would call a well-adjusted fully-functioning adult. I only have two half-sisters, but I can't call my relationships with them "close" or "happy".
I want my daughter to grow up knowing she's loved and cherished and with 100% fewer therapy bills than I or my husband have had. I think being an only is the best way to accomplish this. I can only pray I'm not mistaken.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 7:40 AM on December 19, 2018 [6 favorites]
In my opinion, the jump from 0 to 1 is the craziest, but from one to two is no picnic either. I had 4 brothers and sisters, so I as a kid had to spend quite a bit of time raising the younger ones, and I certainly didn't want that for my kids, even though it was mostly enjoyable, so two is the stopping point.
In my opinion, the hardest thing is activity scheduling. Even when they are the same gender, the activities for kids 2-3 years apart are not generally concurrent. So every activity timebox is totally distinct. You have to be a master of logistics to have any free time.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:45 AM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
In my opinion, the hardest thing is activity scheduling. Even when they are the same gender, the activities for kids 2-3 years apart are not generally concurrent. So every activity timebox is totally distinct. You have to be a master of logistics to have any free time.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:45 AM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
omegar:
In my experience kids are exponential to the n^n. Taking care of two kids is like taking care of four kids, like so:
1^1
2^2 = 4
3^3 = 9
And so on. Budget and plan accordingly. After the third kid, one might as well start a Daycare.
That math isn't right, 3 raised to the third power is 3 * 3 * 3 = 27, but in point of fact, I think the theory is sound.
eldest of four. 4^4 = 256, yeah, checks out FOR SHORE my poor mommy
Furthermore, to the UpThread:
>>But I say, they just didn’t / don’t give a fuck about effective parenting. They’re playing zone defense instead of man-to-man, and who cares that Timmy is falling behind in math, I got shit to do, and I’m sure the oldest girl will parent him plenty.
>Maybe you ought to think two or three times about how much shit you want to talk about the mothers of people you don't even know?
I agree that it sounds harsh if you aren't interpreting "don't give a fuck" more as "have no fucks left to give." There were days when my mom couldn't manage getting my hair brushed. It's not that she didn't want to, or that she didn't know that my hair needed to be brushed, it's that getting us all fed and dressed and out the door to school while managing at least one major meltdown every morning was more than the one person could do. And yeah, as I got older, I took on parenting roles. Again, this whole thing is an argument for government sponsored child care and far more collective parenting than we seem to think is normal in the USA. It's just impossible for one woman to care for the physical needs of herself, her husband, AND four small things.
Besides, poster might have been talking about poster's own parents, ya know?
posted by Made of Star Stuff at 8:02 AM on December 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
In my experience kids are exponential to the n^n. Taking care of two kids is like taking care of four kids, like so:
1^1
2^2 = 4
3^3 = 9
And so on. Budget and plan accordingly. After the third kid, one might as well start a Daycare.
That math isn't right, 3 raised to the third power is 3 * 3 * 3 = 27, but in point of fact, I think the theory is sound.
eldest of four. 4^4 = 256, yeah, checks out FOR SHORE my poor mommy
Furthermore, to the UpThread:
>>But I say, they just didn’t / don’t give a fuck about effective parenting. They’re playing zone defense instead of man-to-man, and who cares that Timmy is falling behind in math, I got shit to do, and I’m sure the oldest girl will parent him plenty.
>Maybe you ought to think two or three times about how much shit you want to talk about the mothers of people you don't even know?
I agree that it sounds harsh if you aren't interpreting "don't give a fuck" more as "have no fucks left to give." There were days when my mom couldn't manage getting my hair brushed. It's not that she didn't want to, or that she didn't know that my hair needed to be brushed, it's that getting us all fed and dressed and out the door to school while managing at least one major meltdown every morning was more than the one person could do. And yeah, as I got older, I took on parenting roles. Again, this whole thing is an argument for government sponsored child care and far more collective parenting than we seem to think is normal in the USA. It's just impossible for one woman to care for the physical needs of herself, her husband, AND four small things.
Besides, poster might have been talking about poster's own parents, ya know?
posted by Made of Star Stuff at 8:02 AM on December 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
re: how do parents of many kids manage - well, I suspect all too many of them don't, actually, it's just that they don't usually fail badly enough to outright kill the kids.
My parents thought they could manage 4. They could not. It was very very clear how overwhelmed they were, as they pretty much gave up on trying to tame us and let us roam freely. Nevermind extracurriculars, we didn't have basic needs met. They imagined that the older kids would help raise the youngers, but as it turns out, kids - particularly those with a heavy family streak of adhd and autism - are not very good at self-teaching things like basic personal hygiene, developing social skills, and good work/organizational habits. So we had a lot of catching up to do as adults.
So yeah, if I ever have kids the number will be strictly limited to the amount I can adequately care for given that they'll probably be "difficult" like me - certainly well under 4. My siblings are great though and I am very glad that I have them to talk with about our...interesting childhood.
posted by randomnity at 8:16 AM on December 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
My parents thought they could manage 4. They could not. It was very very clear how overwhelmed they were, as they pretty much gave up on trying to tame us and let us roam freely. Nevermind extracurriculars, we didn't have basic needs met. They imagined that the older kids would help raise the youngers, but as it turns out, kids - particularly those with a heavy family streak of adhd and autism - are not very good at self-teaching things like basic personal hygiene, developing social skills, and good work/organizational habits. So we had a lot of catching up to do as adults.
So yeah, if I ever have kids the number will be strictly limited to the amount I can adequately care for given that they'll probably be "difficult" like me - certainly well under 4. My siblings are great though and I am very glad that I have them to talk with about our...interesting childhood.
posted by randomnity at 8:16 AM on December 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
The crucial idea that's been touched on in this thread yet never explicitly said is: age difference between kids matters way more than kid count in determining how much stress a parent is under during the childdren's infancy.
So a >20 year age gap between your first and second children makes having two kids exactly as easy as having one (because you literally only have a maximum of one *child* at any given moment in your life), and having twins = the asymptote of maximal effort/stress involved in raising two kids.
posted by MiraK at 9:28 AM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
So a >20 year age gap between your first and second children makes having two kids exactly as easy as having one (because you literally only have a maximum of one *child* at any given moment in your life), and having twins = the asymptote of maximal effort/stress involved in raising two kids.
posted by MiraK at 9:28 AM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Except that in that first case, the parents are 20 years older. And it's very different running after a toddler at 45 than at 25.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:30 AM on December 19, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Chrysostom at 9:30 AM on December 19, 2018 [8 favorites]
Mom says that from the minute she brought me home my older sister assumed responsibility for as much of my care and upbringing as she was physically able to do. She says it was like, "Thanks for the baby, Mom; we'll let you know if we need anything." Whatever she couldn't do herself she would remind Mom to do. I have a feeling she could have raised a whole litter of me.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:33 AM on December 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:33 AM on December 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
The point is how much additional parenting effort it takes when you have an additional child, not how old you are when you are doing the work of parenting.
This article and this conversation has not been about how the age of the parent impacts the effort involved in parenting. Having two kids 20+ years apart is no different from having one child either earlier or later in the parent's life.
posted by MiraK at 9:34 AM on December 19, 2018
This article and this conversation has not been about how the age of the parent impacts the effort involved in parenting. Having two kids 20+ years apart is no different from having one child either earlier or later in the parent's life.
posted by MiraK at 9:34 AM on December 19, 2018
Having one child is like having a really shitty roommate, who never pays rent, makes tremendous messes yet never cleans up after themselves without constant prodding, eats all your food, is inconsiderate of your schedule and introversion, etc, except you can't consider eviction for some time and anyway you still like the adorable little shithead. The transition from the housing situations of our 20s to a one-child family has been uncannily seamless.
posted by palindromic at 10:18 AM on December 19, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by palindromic at 10:18 AM on December 19, 2018 [11 favorites]
So I wonder how our Boomer parents, which is to say quite often probably mostly our mothers, had all those kids without going broke and/or crazy.
I'm also a child of Boomer parents, as are all of my friends, and from what I'm seeing over the past few years in regards to toxic and often irretrievably broken parent/child relationships, I'd have to disagree with the notion that having all those kids didn't break our mothers. And their mothers before them. I can't even count anymore how many female friends I have whose relationship with their mothers comes right out of the pages of Mark Wolynn's book on breaking the cycle of inherited family trauma.
posted by palomar at 12:02 PM on December 19, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm also a child of Boomer parents, as are all of my friends, and from what I'm seeing over the past few years in regards to toxic and often irretrievably broken parent/child relationships, I'd have to disagree with the notion that having all those kids didn't break our mothers. And their mothers before them. I can't even count anymore how many female friends I have whose relationship with their mothers comes right out of the pages of Mark Wolynn's book on breaking the cycle of inherited family trauma.
posted by palomar at 12:02 PM on December 19, 2018 [8 favorites]
Besides, poster might have been talking about poster's own parents, ya know?
Poster can talk about poster's own parents all he wants, but presumably he knows how to write about "my parents" instead of "the parent of five kids." My mom is "the parent of five kids," and I could write a book about the things that went wrong in my childhood, but one thing I am absolutely confident in is that she most very definitely "gave a fuck" about raising us right, and anyone who says otherwise can seriously go fuck themselves.
And me, I'm a relatively privileged white person, but it's an especially nasty attitude when you consider in which demographic groups larger family sizes are likely to occur.
posted by praemunire at 12:02 PM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
Poster can talk about poster's own parents all he wants, but presumably he knows how to write about "my parents" instead of "the parent of five kids." My mom is "the parent of five kids," and I could write a book about the things that went wrong in my childhood, but one thing I am absolutely confident in is that she most very definitely "gave a fuck" about raising us right, and anyone who says otherwise can seriously go fuck themselves.
And me, I'm a relatively privileged white person, but it's an especially nasty attitude when you consider in which demographic groups larger family sizes are likely to occur.
posted by praemunire at 12:02 PM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
That's hilarious, The Underpants Monster. Did your sister grow up to have kids? Or did she get it out of her system with you?
posted by fiercecupcake at 12:48 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by fiercecupcake at 12:48 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure if helicopter parenting is a thing, though.
Generational shifts in childhood roaming:
* Great-grandfather, 1919; age 8, allowed to walk 6 miles to fishing hole
* Grandfather, 1950; age 8, allowed to walk 1 mile to woods.
* Mother, 1979; age 8, allowed to walk 1/2 mile to swimming pool.
* Child, 2012; age 8, allowed to walk 300 yards to end of street.
Same neighborhood. Same family. Helicopter parenting doesn't just mean "literally standing over the child;" it includes "child is not allowed unsupervised time or distance from a parent."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:13 PM on December 19, 2018
Generational shifts in childhood roaming:
* Great-grandfather, 1919; age 8, allowed to walk 6 miles to fishing hole
* Grandfather, 1950; age 8, allowed to walk 1 mile to woods.
* Mother, 1979; age 8, allowed to walk 1/2 mile to swimming pool.
* Child, 2012; age 8, allowed to walk 300 yards to end of street.
Same neighborhood. Same family. Helicopter parenting doesn't just mean "literally standing over the child;" it includes "child is not allowed unsupervised time or distance from a parent."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:13 PM on December 19, 2018
Two cats, on the other hand, is actually easier, as long as they entertain each other.
Two knives is also, as they say, pretty sweet.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:19 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Two knives is also, as they say, pretty sweet.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:19 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
There's a lot to unpack w/r/t "helicopter parenting" and generational changes in child autonomy.
Like, I walked to school in 1st-2nd grade, "alone" but not really because I attended a neighborhood school where ALL the students walked (and also walked back home for lunch every day). So, I was walking with an entire school's worth of kids, and there were crossing guards at every single intersection. My parents would not have allowed me to walk that same distance to some random location without vast hordes of other children also walking that same route in 1979. My kid doesn't go to our neighborhood school now, so I drive him, but the kids who do attend the local school? They walk alone for the most part. It's still a thing in denser areas.
But I think also if you talk to some older folks about honestly, not rose-colored nostalgia glasses, what was it like to not have adults all up in your biz all the time you might get a different view of helicopter parenting? Because I have a lot of friends my age (40s) who were 1970's-style unparented and there's lots and lots of stories of abuse and assault perpetrated by both strangers and acquaintances, because the responsible adults just weren't around and they weren't really even asking kids what they were up to. It's not like that shit did not happen in massive amounts back when we were all walkin' to the ole swimming hole--it's that no one talked about it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:45 PM on December 19, 2018 [16 favorites]
Like, I walked to school in 1st-2nd grade, "alone" but not really because I attended a neighborhood school where ALL the students walked (and also walked back home for lunch every day). So, I was walking with an entire school's worth of kids, and there were crossing guards at every single intersection. My parents would not have allowed me to walk that same distance to some random location without vast hordes of other children also walking that same route in 1979. My kid doesn't go to our neighborhood school now, so I drive him, but the kids who do attend the local school? They walk alone for the most part. It's still a thing in denser areas.
But I think also if you talk to some older folks about honestly, not rose-colored nostalgia glasses, what was it like to not have adults all up in your biz all the time you might get a different view of helicopter parenting? Because I have a lot of friends my age (40s) who were 1970's-style unparented and there's lots and lots of stories of abuse and assault perpetrated by both strangers and acquaintances, because the responsible adults just weren't around and they weren't really even asking kids what they were up to. It's not like that shit did not happen in massive amounts back when we were all walkin' to the ole swimming hole--it's that no one talked about it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:45 PM on December 19, 2018 [16 favorites]
I think I soured her on parenting, fiercecupcake.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:00 PM on December 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:00 PM on December 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm aware that some of the restrictions on children roaming are caused by practical changes - the g'grandfather in 1919 likely had no cars to worry about; it was much safer to let kids roam larger distances. (Whether it was safe to let them roam alone is a different issue.)
And yeah - a lot of abuses just got ignored, and when most families had 3 kids, you could count on your kid almost never being actually alone; if Timmy fell out of a tree and broke his leg, someone could run and fetch an adult. When most families have 0-1 kids and there are fewer in the neighborhood at all, Timmy's explore range is limited because there's literally nobody to call for help if he's got a problem.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:01 PM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
And yeah - a lot of abuses just got ignored, and when most families had 3 kids, you could count on your kid almost never being actually alone; if Timmy fell out of a tree and broke his leg, someone could run and fetch an adult. When most families have 0-1 kids and there are fewer in the neighborhood at all, Timmy's explore range is limited because there's literally nobody to call for help if he's got a problem.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:01 PM on December 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
Timmy's explore range is limited because there's literally nobody to call for help if he's got a problem.
At least in the US too, urban density has decreased pretty dramatically since the 1950s, dropping from close to 5000 people per sq mile on average to about 3000, mostly due to suburbanization, but also due to fewer children overall. In short, the 'village' of people helping raise kids has taken a serious hit.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:22 PM on December 19, 2018
At least in the US too, urban density has decreased pretty dramatically since the 1950s, dropping from close to 5000 people per sq mile on average to about 3000, mostly due to suburbanization, but also due to fewer children overall. In short, the 'village' of people helping raise kids has taken a serious hit.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:22 PM on December 19, 2018
My pull quote is: "Clearly, fathers aren’t facing the same chronic time pressure as mothers over the long-term." As a father of four I can anecdotally support this. Even though I made a lot of effort to be equal in support, I failed. I often say, every day is Father's day.
posted by Edward L at 3:04 PM on December 19, 2018
posted by Edward L at 3:04 PM on December 19, 2018
> Two cats, on the other hand, is actually easier, as long as they entertain each other.
Two Cats, by Seo Kim
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:35 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Two Cats, by Seo Kim
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:35 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have no children by choice and a big reason was because although I quite like the idea of having just one child I hate being an only myself.
Alas having more than one sounds impossible due to the pressures stated above - especially around terrible frustration with gender-imbalance in parental roles (rife in the middle-class, highly-educated, financially comfortable circles that my kid-having friends run in).
So, for me, 1 is unconscionable (better for me, not great for child) and >1 is untenable (better for children, awful for me). Hence none.
Had I been part of a community of adults/families/villagers whatever, people to share the load and the love for children in general it might have been different.
posted by freya_lamb at 5:22 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Alas having more than one sounds impossible due to the pressures stated above - especially around terrible frustration with gender-imbalance in parental roles (rife in the middle-class, highly-educated, financially comfortable circles that my kid-having friends run in).
So, for me, 1 is unconscionable (better for me, not great for child) and >1 is untenable (better for children, awful for me). Hence none.
Had I been part of a community of adults/families/villagers whatever, people to share the load and the love for children in general it might have been different.
posted by freya_lamb at 5:22 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Just space the kids exactly 21 years apart. I've played a lot of management sims so you can trust my thinking on this.
posted by um at 7:56 PM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by um at 7:56 PM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
We're pretty good at math over here but somehow failed to realize when everyone told us the second would be easier than the first (correct in our case) that that would still sum to something considerably larger than 1.0. #2 is so much easier than #1 now that we're not anxious about A,B,C... -- so why are we so exhausted? Oh wait, 0.6+0.8 >> 1.0, right. It took us about two months to emerge out of the haze enough to realize our basic math error, which was a bit of a relief honestly, to know we were just overworked and not going nuts.
...Thinking about it further now, this means that if we ignore multiplicative effects and assume that whatever the work decline function from infancy onward is, it (optimistically) asymptotically approaches something around 0.5 ... that implies that the total work from the birth of the second until the first leaves home is >1, ie 15 years of work equal to or greater than the effort spent in the first few weeks of having your first child. Which is a lot!
posted by chortly at 8:02 PM on December 19, 2018
...Thinking about it further now, this means that if we ignore multiplicative effects and assume that whatever the work decline function from infancy onward is, it (optimistically) asymptotically approaches something around 0.5 ... that implies that the total work from the birth of the second until the first leaves home is >1, ie 15 years of work equal to or greater than the effort spent in the first few weeks of having your first child. Which is a lot!
posted by chortly at 8:02 PM on December 19, 2018
That's interesting The Underpants Monster. I played a huge role in raising my little sister and it was fun as a 12 year old but omg exhausting. And in my social circles people didn't really have kids til mid 30's and by then I knew I had far less energy than necessary and I wasn't going down that route again, pre-existing child raising skills or not. Especially since parenting requires way more engagement now.
So at a time when my friends are all staggering around in shock and exhaustion with babies and toddlers, I'm all, ' I'm not crazy, I've raised one and now she's married, well educated and has a great job, do you know how much worrying got us to this point?' I'll just wait until she gives me nieces/nephews if she chooses and then I can be awww lil babies.
Though I have two cats per metafilter rules and that was a fab decision but one is a cranky toddler with the meow meow meow meow right now and I'm all, just a moment darling! So maybe you can't escape.
posted by kitten magic at 10:11 PM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
So at a time when my friends are all staggering around in shock and exhaustion with babies and toddlers, I'm all, ' I'm not crazy, I've raised one and now she's married, well educated and has a great job, do you know how much worrying got us to this point?' I'll just wait until she gives me nieces/nephews if she chooses and then I can be awww lil babies.
Though I have two cats per metafilter rules and that was a fab decision but one is a cranky toddler with the meow meow meow meow right now and I'm all, just a moment darling! So maybe you can't escape.
posted by kitten magic at 10:11 PM on December 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
1 kid: you can play zone and barely keep up
2 kids: man-to-man, and you're outnumbered
3+ kids: game over, man!
posted by kirkaracha at 10:29 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
2 kids: man-to-man, and you're outnumbered
3+ kids: game over, man!
posted by kirkaracha at 10:29 PM on December 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think I've commented this on MF before but when my first kid was born my uncle (and father of six) told me "it takes 1.5 adults to take care of one child so by the time you have two you're outnumbered ". And now as patents of two, boy was he effing right.
Having one was so easy. It helps that firstborn is a super easy going person. Secondborn is decidedly not. But the hardest thing about parenting two (for me, the mom) is the emotional support that everyone in the family needs - all at the same time. So then I have to tell someone to wait, which never feels fair when dealing with little people's very big feelings, and then no one circling back and attending to my needs, so I have to do that too. Maybe if they'd been closer together in age they would learn from each other, but the age difference is such that developmentally the younger just doesn't get what the older is experiencing, and it kills me to constantly ask the older to set his feelings aside and wait until we've worked out whatever is going on with the younger so that we can actually hear and attend to the older.
I was in my 40's before either of my kids were born, but I'm much more mentally and emotionally exhausted than physically. I get why so many parents have zero fucks to give after a while. Taking care of others is a grind. Especially when that emotional work is not shared in an effective way.
posted by vignettist at 3:21 PM on December 22, 2018
Having one was so easy. It helps that firstborn is a super easy going person. Secondborn is decidedly not. But the hardest thing about parenting two (for me, the mom) is the emotional support that everyone in the family needs - all at the same time. So then I have to tell someone to wait, which never feels fair when dealing with little people's very big feelings, and then no one circling back and attending to my needs, so I have to do that too. Maybe if they'd been closer together in age they would learn from each other, but the age difference is such that developmentally the younger just doesn't get what the older is experiencing, and it kills me to constantly ask the older to set his feelings aside and wait until we've worked out whatever is going on with the younger so that we can actually hear and attend to the older.
I was in my 40's before either of my kids were born, but I'm much more mentally and emotionally exhausted than physically. I get why so many parents have zero fucks to give after a while. Taking care of others is a grind. Especially when that emotional work is not shared in an effective way.
posted by vignettist at 3:21 PM on December 22, 2018
I would love to have another child ( I have one) but as an American woman I just literally don't have the stamina that's expected of me to have any more. I had a rough pregnancy, and postpartum, and being 37 now with a 3 year old I'm like oh HELL NO, I am not going through that shit show again. I do daydream about another universe where I would have more support and more money and more community, but I'm realizing that's not really the reality.
plus I still want to have friends, work, have a decent sex life, never mind how expensive child and healthcare is. It's sad on some level. I even have a great partner, 2 sets of grandparents, and a decent community around me, and i STILL think the toll and expectations put on mothers is ridiculous. That being said, I'm also my own person, and I think some moms/parents like the daily labor of child rearing more than me, and it gives them a sense of purpose and satisfaction. I'm actually kind of envious of this, but I really love having my own life outside of children, and even with one I feel like I'm GRASPING some days.
Bottom line, raising children is hard in America. You're pretty much on your own, and if you don't want to do it alone, you have to work pretty hard to create it.
posted by Rocket26 at 8:47 PM on December 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
plus I still want to have friends, work, have a decent sex life, never mind how expensive child and healthcare is. It's sad on some level. I even have a great partner, 2 sets of grandparents, and a decent community around me, and i STILL think the toll and expectations put on mothers is ridiculous. That being said, I'm also my own person, and I think some moms/parents like the daily labor of child rearing more than me, and it gives them a sense of purpose and satisfaction. I'm actually kind of envious of this, but I really love having my own life outside of children, and even with one I feel like I'm GRASPING some days.
Bottom line, raising children is hard in America. You're pretty much on your own, and if you don't want to do it alone, you have to work pretty hard to create it.
posted by Rocket26 at 8:47 PM on December 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
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posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:25 PM on December 18, 2018