June 18, 2002

9:42 AM

Korea 2-1 Italy. A classic World Cup in the making?First it was Senegal dumping out the French, and then the Argies and the Portuguese were left biting the dust. Spain and Ireland fought out a nail-biting penalty shoot-out, Saudi Arabia got hit for eight, and now South Korea continue their miraculous journey by sending Italy home. Next on the cards: let's hope for another classic when England take on Brazil!
posted by arrowhead (39 comments total)

Damnit! You spoiled my tape.

It doesn't surprise me; the Italians were standing around the whole tournament. Either that or pouting, but they deserved to do a little of that.
posted by mblandi at 9:53 AM on June 18, 2002

Senegal didn't dump out the french. Denmark did with their 2-0 win. Still, that doesn't change the fact that this World Cup is more and more dominated by the outsiders. Anyone else expecting to see Senegal in the final?
posted by Hjorth at 9:55 AM on June 18, 2002

After England beat Brazil in the Quarters, they'll take out Senegal in the semis, en route to victory over Spain in the final. The great thing about wacko predictions is you look really smart if they work out.

Damnit! You spoiled my tape

Twiggy showed how to post World Cup threads without spoilers...maybe we should try to follow suit?
posted by Kafkaesque at 10:01 AM on June 18, 2002

senegal, south korea, turkey and the united states in the final eight........i know it's just one world cup, but it really seems like the gap between the haves and the have nots has narrowed.
posted by zoopraxiscope at 10:03 AM on June 18, 2002

It's gonna be a England vs Germany final.
posted by stevridie at 10:13 AM on June 18, 2002

I expect a Germany-Brazil championship match with Germany winning. I want a USA-Senegal matchup at the end, but it probly won't happen. And if the USA doesn't make it, I'd like to see Korea make it to the championship match because they're an entertaining team with wonderful fans. Zooprax has it right -- with those four teams in the final eight, this is a wonderful, wacky World Cup.
posted by Holden at 10:14 AM on June 18, 2002

Damnit! You spoiled my tape

Oh dear, I'm so sorry. Just didnt happen to realize the fact that people do watch them on tapes after the games. Over here it's difficult to walk around without hearing people talking about the results and everything World Cup. It's impossible to escape from not knowing! :)
posted by arrowhead at 10:16 AM on June 18, 2002

The mis-call against Totti in extra time... it's possible to miss, but seriously, in an elimination game in the World Cup, a referee should be paying much closer attention to situations like that. The Italians have every right to be as upset as they are. Sure they put themselves in the position to lose by not finishing off some more open chances, but when you rightly deserve a chance to score and have that taken away by something beyond your control.. it's got to be so frustrating. I feel bad for them, because they are a great team with some class players who deserve to get further in the World Cup at some point in their careers. But, credit to the South Koreans, they are having the run of their lives. It'll be interesting to see how they'll do in World Cups after this one.
posted by dopamine at 10:17 AM on June 18, 2002

Not too surprising, South Korea has tens of thousands of people cheering their team on every singles game. Nearly all the members of Senegal's team play professionally in Europe. The US pro league has really only gotten off the ground since the last World Cup, so they're finally getting some decent practice. Turkey is plausible, look at Group C: Brazil, Turkey, China, and Costa Rica. And then they beat Japan. Makes sense.
posted by panopticon at 10:28 AM on June 18, 2002

Hey, no big deal about the spoil, it will still be fun to watch since I hear there was more controversy. It certainly is difficult to avoid finding out. I had to avoid the net completely so I could watch USA Mexico. Missing the late game this morning was inexcusable anyway. Can't wake up and stay up at 6:30 since the prolonged world cup effect is hitting me. Good thing we have a break.
posted by mblandi at 10:35 AM on June 18, 2002

The quality of refs and linesmen in this World Cup is at an apalling all time low. If the disgraceful calls against Italy in every game they have played had been perpetrated against the Koreans or Japanese resulting in their losing when they deserved to win, this Cup would have been forever remembered for mob histeria and street riots.
posted by Voyageman at 11:05 AM on June 18, 2002

In my worst nightmares, following the surprise pattern so far, the final will be a deeply boring Turkey vs. South Korea.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 11:07 AM on June 18, 2002

Unlike all the others. :)
posted by vbfg at 11:07 AM on June 18, 2002

Don't forget the real Golden Goal, scored by Tommasi in the 2nd overtime period but (incorrectly) overruled.
It's true that there's a bit of psychodrama being played out here in Italy at the moment, but we also had 5 goals ruled out during the tournament, all of which turned out to be perfectly valid. Five goals in the World Cup is certainly enough to tip the balance.

I think the country's entitled to a bit of pouting at the moment.
posted by PlinAgin at 11:27 AM on June 18, 2002

The mis-call against Totti in extra time...

That was no 'miss-call' - the Korean player got the ball and Totti was falling over before the tackle. Any player who dives or pulls a shirt in this world cup is taking a big risk. If the ref had been fooled Totti would have had a penalty and the Korean would have been sent off - that would have been a 'miss-call'

For me it's a wonderful feeling of schadenfreude to see the Italian team caught out after years of cynicism and negativity.

Live by the sword, die by the sword for the boys who cry wolf.
posted by niceness at 12:13 PM on June 18, 2002

United States - England in the big game.

Even the Brits around here are saying the US has a good chance against the Germans.
posted by rich at 12:16 PM on June 18, 2002

The match wasn't very good. The italians defended themselves too much, a little more attack maybe, a 2nd goal before resting in the 2nd time.

But the referee was sold, I'm pretty sure he was. He just didn't see a number of faults against italians, but he did promptly wistle at every millimetric fault made by them.

I agree that the average quality of referee is very very low, with the noticeable exception of Collina, the bald tall guy. He really has got eyes on the players and on the ball.

I also think it's TIME to introduce more technology on the field, cameras taping faults, sensors in the ball and on the lines , electronic linesmen and such. It's not deadly expensive and it's reliable. And bye bye corrupted referee.
posted by elpapacito at 12:19 PM on June 18, 2002

Italy play a negative, boring game. Regardless of the refereeing I am glad they are out. To be fair the reffing has been poor for all teams. Italy has been the beneficiary of poor reffing in the past, and did not mind. :)

The USA is not to be discounted. They play a counter-attacking style reminiscent to me, of Italy in the early 80's. Germany is not the Germany of old. But they still are Germany. They manage to win somehow when it is the World Cup. I am a German supporter, but realistic.

England can beat Brazil. And even the ex-German great Beckenbauer says the winner of that game will take home the Cup. Say it ain't so.

England - Germany final. 3-2 England in a shoot out. That will be sweet revenge for England for their shootout woes. Of course, I could be wrong. :)
posted by Mondo at 12:24 PM on June 18, 2002

Totti deserved to walk. He was already halfway through the dive when he hit the Korean's leg. An extremely good call by the ref.

Oh, and well done Korea. Ahn is the man.
posted by dydecker at 12:31 PM on June 18, 2002

I think that the World Cup is finally living up to its name of being a more inclusive sport for those countries that haven't had the luxury or the time to develop themselves before. What I find interesting is how people are freaking out because you have countries like Korea and Senegal that are beating European teams and the Western world finds it hard to cope with that fact. Just look at how Russia went bezerk after Japan won. If anything, this World Cup is exposing the underlying racism that also dominates the sport...
posted by dkhong at 12:43 PM on June 18, 2002

The Korean didn't get the ball at all. He kicked Totti in the leg. How did anyone not see that? Maybe I need to watch it a few more times..
posted by dopamine at 12:49 PM on June 18, 2002

What do you think of this story absolutely ridiculous if you ask me, I'm a Brit living in the US and as if I'd ever cheer for the US in an England - US match.
posted by zeoslap at 12:52 PM on June 18, 2002

Dopamine, I started off this World Cup cheering Italy but after seeing that their "brilliance" consisted of diving, scoring in the first twenty minutes and then lining up six defenders and boring the pants off us, endless arguing with the ref about blatant offsides, etc, etc, they lost my support.

As for Tommasi's real "golden goal" in extra time, it was easily three metres offside. Tommasi knew it, he even suppressed his tantrum.

Have a cry and get over it, I say. The best team on the day won.
posted by dydecker at 1:02 PM on June 18, 2002

Maybe there was a sniper in the crowd that shot Totti.



I watched it, I enjoyed it. I'm probally going to say German - England, 2-1.
posted by Darke at 1:07 PM on June 18, 2002

From your link, zeoslap:

"To mix sports and politics is like putting Tabasco sauce on spaghetti."

Just exactly what is wrong with Tabasco® on spaghetti?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:08 PM on June 18, 2002

interesting that the u.s. isn't mentioned as outsiders in their second world cup, they advanced on on a technicality, and miguel, portugal have no one to blame but themselves.

tabasco
Jose Salinas? i know that guy. the u.s. is only in the world cup because the immigrant communities.

for the record, i support england, but they're underdogs in the quarterfinal card, duh!
posted by elle at 2:46 PM on June 18, 2002

Personally, I think the reffing has been of a pretty high standard.

I also believe that the officials got it right today.

Totti dived on the merest contact and then threw his hands in the air claiming a penalty which it clearly wasn't - yellow card for simulation.

The offside call was difficult to see as the camera angle was offset, in my opinion Tomassi was just offside, though as I say the angle makes it impossible to tell, the only person to tell would be the linesman, sorry, referee's assistant, who gave him offside.

Italy has had some poorish calls in other games, but not to my mind in this one and given the chances they spurned, I think they have only themselves to blame.

South Korea deserved this as they worked tirelessly and didn't give up.
posted by johnny novak at 3:02 PM on June 18, 2002

and you can't take that away from them...
posted by johnny novak at 3:06 PM on June 18, 2002

Korea deserved to win the moment the entire Italian wall jumped over the ball.
posted by vbfg at 4:07 PM on June 18, 2002

the u.s. isn't mentioned as outsiders in their second world cup, they advanced on on a technicality

Technicality? They got lucky when South Korea beat Portugal to be sure, but give them some credit, they put themselves in a place where luck would do them some good. If the same thing had happened in 1998, it wouldn't have made a damned bit of difference, because the US hadn't done anything in their other games. They had a crap game against Poland, but they played very well against Portugal and South Korea. You make your own luck.
posted by geneablogy at 7:01 PM on June 18, 2002

still fans aren't so quick to alienating the u.s. team as african and asian teams.
posted by elle at 8:37 PM on June 18, 2002

The US has been in more World Cups than Japan and Senegal put together. Unless I'm remembering wrong, Japan had never won a game in the World Cup before.

The US has definitely been in more than 2 World Cups.

As far as African teams go, and their "alienation", Cameroon and Nigeria have been expected to excel in the past, and Cameroon has done well. It was a disappointment this time that neither made it out of their group. I'm not sure if you're implying a subtle racism, elle, but naming Senegal as an outsider in their very first World Cup is to be expected.

the u.s. is only in the world cup because the immigrant communities.

I don't see that at all. I mean the US is made up of immigrants. It's true that there are no Native Americans playing for the United States...is that what you mean?

I'm not trying to poke or bait you...just wondering.
posted by Kafkaesque at 10:06 PM on June 18, 2002

kafkaesque-

thanks for the interest so i can make my big fat speech. (i like to make like the quiet one but i'm actually quite verbose.)

the u.s. is in its 3rd wc since 1950. been back in it since 1990. moded. =
but yeah, i am quite bitter about the u.s. attitude toward football, not talking about the team itself here, they are obviously into it. senegal's team may be first timers but their skill is evidence of their devotion to football. the u.s. level is up but their premier come back performances in 90/94 were both dull and dull, because these guys come from a country where people think football involve mostly holding a pit-shaped ball with arms. it's this weird silver-platter-presentation of the sport to america that weirds me out, it's so cheap. the degrading is amplified by the fact that meanwhile, football is sacred and almighty to everyone else in the world by default. wtf.

by immigrant communities i mean the first generation kids or second generation kids who obviously have family/ community influences growing up, familiar with the game, watched it, played it. maybe united states's return to football is inevitable because it's a brilliant game, but immigrant communities certainly pushed it forward faster than it would have moved (don't make me pull out the metric reference, oh i just pulled it out). just look at the roster.
posted by elle at 2:16 AM on June 19, 2002

What I find interesting is how people are freaking out because you have countries like Korea and Senegal that are beating European teams and the Western world finds it hard to cope with that fact. Just look at how Russia went bezerk after Japan won. If anything, this World Cup is exposing the underlying racism that also dominates the sport...

I don't know about that. There's undoubtedly bitterness in the countries that have lost to underdogs, but that's because they're out of the World Cup and that's truly heartbreaking for them. I've never encountered this feeling that Europe, or the Western world, whatever that is, ever thought they had a right to the World Cup. After all, two of the most successful teams traditionally have been Argentina and Brazil. In fact, everyone here (UK) absolutely loves the fact new teams are coming through because it confirms football as the world's favourite sport. If people are freaking out, they're freaking out in a positive way. Bring it on.
posted by Summer at 2:50 AM on June 19, 2002

Italy got what they deserved.

Bleat, bleat, bleat is no good when you got beat, beat, beat.

dkhong: That may be the angle being put over in the US but in Europe the only freaking out being done is the good kind. People are loving the fact that S Korea, Senegal, the USA & others are doing so well.

Bruce Arena was right when he said that the gap between teams was much closer these days.

As an England fan I would rather lose to Senegal than Brazil even tho' there would be more 'honour' in the latter.
posted by i_cola at 3:24 AM on June 19, 2002

the u.s. level is up but their premier come back performances in 90/94 were both dull and dull, because these guys come from a country where people think football involve mostly holding a pit-shaped ball with arms.

I don't understand. Those two performances (btw, should be three, since we were in it in 98 also) by the US were very poor, but I don't see how the your point about the country's opinion of football is even logical. When the Cup was in the US, they made it out of the first round...perhaps due to the fact that they didn't have to qualify as the host nation, but perhaps due to the fan support.

One of the results of having the Cup in the US in 94 was the formation of the MLS. The MLS is one of the key factors in the US's improvement.

immigrant communities certainly pushed it forward faster than it would have moved

Good. Immigrant communities are what keep America vital and diverse. I would also say that it's hard to say who exactly is the "immigrant community". In my view once you've settled here, you're an American. But I'm first generation myself.

What I guess I'm saying is that, yes, I am aware of the crap attitude towards soccer in the US in the past, but why complain about its resurgence?
posted by Kafkaesque at 8:58 AM on June 19, 2002

guess i'm complaining about the world perpetuating dismissive, inert attitudes america usually has about non-american matters. maybe football is really full of int'l good will.

if a first time wc team's level is high, it probably means there's a lot of competition/ practicing, and extensive and intensive interest in the sport is therefore implied. also means kids probably grow up playing. i think it's blatant that the u.s. didn't/don't have the same interest level. the first american team has a lower skill level than the first senegalese team because team members do not play the sport in a highly competitive, encouraging environment as a result of the lack of interest. in 10 years maybe the u.s. will be at that level, because of all the kids playing now. probably not the case in senegal.

typo? not having to qualify as the host nation would mean they can play very badly and still be participating. i didn't understand what you meant.
give an example of good immigrant communities? or ethnic communities, let's make it less single-event-based.
does being first generation give you a different perspective about football?

sorry for steering the thread astray, now i fully appreciate why group d is excluded from the front post.
posted by elle at 2:46 PM on June 19, 2002

i didn't understand what you meant.

I meant they were rested, had less potential for carrying injuries into the Cup, becuase they didn't have to play all the qualifiers.

give an example of good immigrant communities? or ethnic communities, let's make it less single-event-based.

Heck, I live in Southern California, which is full of recent immigrants from Mexico. I think that's a positive thing. And I don't really get your question. How can immigrant/ethnic communities not be good?

does being first generation give you a different perspective about football?

Probably, yes. My dad taught me to like football when I was a kid.

Anyway. We are mostly saying the same things. Americans have been woefully uninformed and biased in their treatment of the beautiful game, but here's hoping that soon changes.
posted by Kafkaesque at 3:21 PM on June 19, 2002

In WC USA 94, every game was sold out. Packed to the rafters with supporters.

Didn't happen in France, hasn't happened in Korea.

Soccer isn't the only sport in the US, so the pool of talented strong athletes is siphoned off into more popular sports.

In the suburbs, most all kids play soccer growing up. But there are too many choices there, all these popular sports and the infrastructure to have a team for all of them at every school. Affluence and the sporting variety affluence brings kills US soccer.

In the favelas of US inner cities, most kids play roundball or american football. So what, they can and it's fun. You can walk down a city street dribbling a basketball better than you can a soccerball, and football teams have 80 players -- anyone can make the team.

The US soccer team is doing well in a large part because Bruce Arena is one of the best coaches in the history of the sport. His record speaks for itself. A big European club would be wise to sign him.

But how did this thread get hijacked into a discussion about the US? Korea are the men of the hour.

Italy were out-hustled. The ref did a great job. In an extra-time game, the team with more gas in their tanks wins. And that was Korea. Italy was only capable of stupid dives and slow-witted offsides play by the end of the game. And if they were as intent on playing defense as it semed throughout, where was the marking on the game-winner? Where was the marking, you whining Italians?
posted by dfowler at 3:23 PM on June 19, 2002