Maybe it’s okay for your definition of sex to be subjective
February 15, 2019 4:27 PM   Subscribe

I’ve been writing about sex online for the better part of a decade now, and my understanding of what “sex” is has only become broader and murkier as time has progressed (not to mention, as acts like sexting and phone sex have become a bigger and bigger part of my life). I’m not sure I know what sex is. I’m not sure I ever knew.
posted by sciatrix (79 comments total) 17 users marked this as a favorite


 
“One person suggested sex could be defined as a physical act meant to invoke sensual pleasure in oneself and one’s partner, but someone else pointed out that under this definition, holding hands could be considered sex.“

I don’t see what the problem is here, of course it’s sex.

Honestly all this time spent thinking about sex could be considered sex IMO. So have more sex that you enjoy!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:50 PM on February 15, 2019 [1 favorite]


This is also such a weird cultural divide that occurs when you move between queer and straight spaces, too.
posted by ITheCosmos at 4:52 PM on February 15, 2019 [24 favorites]


When you're having sex your mind goes into sex mode. Whatever you do while in sex mode is sex. Sex ends when your mind goes back to normal mode. Nothing that happens when YOUR mind is in normal mode counts as sex.
posted by bleep at 4:58 PM on February 15, 2019 [22 favorites]


All the scenarios I can come up with for "why does it matter" are about consent. If you thought we were having sex and I thought we were platonically holding hands, is that a problem? What if I said I didn't want to have sex with you before that? Did that only apply to things I consider sex?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 5:08 PM on February 15, 2019 [4 favorites]



When you're having sex your mind goes into sex mode. Whatever you do while in sex mode is sex. Sex ends when your mind goes back to normal mode. Nothing that happens when YOUR mind is in normal mode counts as sex.


ok grand edifice of science

we need forehead blinkenlight panel to indicate 'sex mode' in all human people

i will write these grant proposals
posted by lalochezia at 5:10 PM on February 15, 2019 [20 favorites]


You know what I mean. It's that mode. I'm not making this up.
posted by bleep at 5:20 PM on February 15, 2019 [1 favorite]


we need forehead blinkenlight panel to indicate 'sex mode' in all human people

Sex Mode sounds like an apocryphal lost Beck EP
posted by Barack Spinoza at 5:22 PM on February 15, 2019 [15 favorites]


(I’m wrong. It’s obviously Prince.)
posted by Barack Spinoza at 5:23 PM on February 15, 2019 [26 favorites]


Beware, if you move to within a 15' radius of Prince you have to make a Charisma saving throw at a -2 penalty or become afflicted with the Sex Mode status condition for 2d4 hours.
posted by prize bull octorok at 5:26 PM on February 15, 2019 [61 favorites]


I've got 2 turntables and a microphone
If I spin 'em myself
Does it count as sex,
If I'm on my own?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:27 PM on February 15, 2019 [5 favorites]


Sex is easy to define. It's what 1 or more consenting adults do together or for each other for purposes of sexual pleasure.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:31 PM on February 15, 2019 [7 favorites]


All the scenarios I can come up with for "why does it matter" are about consent.

The author herself mentions at least one scenario involving a partner who thought that an activity they were both enthusiastically enjoying was sex while she didn't, and that this caused some emotional discomfort that wasn't related to consent.

I know a lot of, say, asexual people who enjoy sex without actually experiencing sexual attraction reporting that their partners were very unhappy with the idea of having sex without the attraction mindset. I also know that people treat activities differently when they disagree on what counts as sex, and those differential perspectives can be interesting.
posted by sciatrix at 5:41 PM on February 15, 2019 [13 favorites]


It depends on what the meaning of "is" is.
posted by delfin at 6:12 PM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]


>Sex ends when your mind goes back to normal mode.

What is this 'normal mode' of which you speak
posted by Sing Or Swim at 6:23 PM on February 15, 2019 [11 favorites]


funny timing, this was the topic in my philosophy of feminism class today! They came to some similar confusion conclusions—mutuality is important, genitalia maybe kinda but less so, and, my favorite response, “proportional emotional expectation to mutual physical response” which eerily included enthusiastic handjobs but seemingly renders sex work to be work first, sex second (which makes sense, but would be culturally counter intuitive)

They got stuck on the idea of a transaction, also. Sex is when you would no longer “be a virgin” once that activity happened. We concluded that virginity is mostly self identified, though, and is just kicking the can of sex-defining. Neat!
posted by zinful at 6:47 PM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]


Definitely emailing them to add “Sex Mode” to the conversation. It seems important!
posted by zinful at 6:48 PM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]


You guys are all wrong, "Sex Mode" is the porn parody version of Zoe Quinn's "Goddess Mode" comic book.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:55 PM on February 15, 2019 [1 favorite]


It's what you tell your doctor when they ask: "Have you been sexually active?"
posted by FJT at 6:57 PM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]


It's what you tell your doctor when they ask: "Have you been sexually active?"

i always say no cuz i mostly just lie there
posted by murphy slaw at 7:10 PM on February 15, 2019 [11 favorites]


it seems like fluids will be (should be) involved, one way or another, along with temperature exchanges.
posted by eustatic at 7:28 PM on February 15, 2019


also i’m not sure if it’s sex if there’s not at least one noise that would make everyone involved laugh out loud in any other situation
posted by murphy slaw at 7:37 PM on February 15, 2019 [13 favorites]


I know a lot of, say, asexual people who enjoy sex without actually experiencing sexual attraction reporting that their partners were very unhappy with the idea of having sex without the attraction mindset.

Asexual people who enjoy sex? A lot of them? I think I might have no idea what asexual means
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 8:00 PM on February 15, 2019 [10 favorites]


Intercourse with motives.
posted by zengargoyle at 8:01 PM on February 15, 2019


To quote a bit of Oglaf marginalia, “I’m enjoying this sex act, but I wish it wasn’t an act.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:15 PM on February 15, 2019 [10 favorites]


>Sex ends when your mind goes back to normal mode.

I guess this is why my wife thinks it's such a buzzkill that I'm obsessed with vim.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:22 PM on February 15, 2019 [10 favorites]


proportional emotional expectation to mutual physical response” which eerily included enthusiastic handjobs

CFNM 2 handed edging and denial FTW
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:34 PM on February 15, 2019 [5 favorites]


Asexual people who enjoy sex? A lot of them? I think I might have no idea what asexual means

Asexuality is a spectrum but in general it means that someone does not experience sexual attraction to men, women, or anyone. Just because they don't experience attraction for their partner doesn't automatically mean that they don't enjoy the physical act of having sex, although some don't.
posted by muddgirl at 8:38 PM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]


> I guess this is why my wife thinks it's such a buzzkill that I'm obsessed with vim.

Be careful not to enter Ex mode.
posted by mbrubeck at 8:42 PM on February 15, 2019 [8 favorites]


Yeah, being ace (asexual) for me is more like “sex is ok, and some people sure are pretty, but I have no drive to seek a necessary connection between those facts” compared to “that cake is so delicious looking holy wow wanna eat it up!” Like, I enjoy sexy time as vigorous cuddling I guess. But usually it seems like a silly waste of time.

It’s a spectrum. Interestingly, the general lack of spontaneous Sex Mode is what made me realize I was ace! But i’ve experienced Sex Mode as still a thing, so I know i have had sex! yay? i guess?

But i also have Cake Mode...what does that imply? yikes.
posted by zinful at 8:52 PM on February 15, 2019 [12 favorites]


my favorite response, “proportional emotional expectation to mutual physical response” which eerily included enthusiastic handjobs

what is an unenthusiastic handjob under this definition (besides mortifying)
posted by murphy slaw at 8:53 PM on February 15, 2019 [6 favorites]


This made me feel worse about myself than I've felt in the last 6 weeks, which is neither your fault nor that of the author. It was a thoughtful piece on an interesting question, though my answer stays at "whatever the person(s) involved say it is".

It's just... challenging when you're an old boring fart and realizing that you live in a world where the norm is "IDK, I was frotting in a pool at a sex party but that's, like, hand-holding pointless G-rated nothing, amirite?" Like, thanks. I spent my Friday night cooking and watching The Good Place, so uh, if sex parties are officially boring now, I don't even know what to say.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that everyone is living their best lives! It's just a weird mismatch between my reality and everyone else's. It's not quite FOMO. More like Certainty of Missing Out. COMO.
posted by cage and aquarium at 8:57 PM on February 15, 2019 [22 favorites]


what is an unenthusiastic handjob
i took enthusiasm to be the type that everyone is enjoying in a physically sexy way but honestly i am not the best person to ask.
posted by zinful at 8:58 PM on February 15, 2019


what is an unenthusiastic handjob

Service topping.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 9:03 PM on February 15, 2019 [9 favorites]


cage and aquarium, I totally feel that way too! There’s no age in which this behavior shouldn’t happen, but for me personally, I know those days are behind me. There is virtually no chance I will become someone engaged in so many sexual encounters that I keep track or have philosophical questions about the nature of those encounters.

I really enjoyed reading this, though! And it did make me feel better in some ways about all the sex I’m not having these days. I’m in a long term monogamous relationship, and both of us are dealing with health stuff (physical disabilities and debilitating nerve pain for her, thyroid and other hormonal issues for me) that has killed our sexual desire. We’ve taken sex off the table since both of us were feeling guilty about what we weren’t doing and honestly both of us got kind of skittish if we thought the other person was initiating but overall it’s sad to miss out on chances to connect physically. Now we’re trying to expand our own definitions of what is sex? to include low impact or low pressure activities and this was helpful to read.

I do think being a kinky person expands what feels like sex to me. I totally get Sex Mode as a concept and in sub space I can get into that easily in contexts that otherwise wouldn’t feel that way to me, like mixing a drink for my partner.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 9:19 PM on February 15, 2019 [7 favorites]


I should clarify that I never had “those days” in the past that resembled this author’s, but back in my early 20’s I had the energy and desire that could have made it possible, if not plausible.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 9:25 PM on February 15, 2019


This thread made me think of this scene from Manhattan.
posted by PhineasGage at 9:46 PM on February 15, 2019


what is an unenthusiastic handjob

> Service topping.


methinks you’re doing it wrong
posted by a halcyon day at 10:05 PM on February 15, 2019


When you're having sex your mind goes into sex mode. Whatever you do while in sex mode is sex.

I feel like this is an incredibly privileged position and neglects to account for the many, many women engaging in survival sex around the world in order to remain housed or fed. Or is that not Sex because it’s work?
posted by corb at 10:21 PM on February 15, 2019 [8 favorites]


someday, a young generation will, at long last, invent sex. someday.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:46 PM on February 15, 2019 [14 favorites]


Is it sex when a researcher jerks off a dolphin in the name of Science? Need to know if I wasted money on a dolphin costume.
posted by um at 10:56 PM on February 15, 2019 [8 favorites]


Over twenty years ago.I was once within 15 feet of Prince for over 14 hours on a flight and had no idea he was on the other side of the bulkhead and galley. When I had to roll it was a total fail of 1 and I've been stuck here ever since. Help.
posted by loquacious at 11:25 PM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]


Service topping.

Someone gave me bottle of this once and it was horrible on ice cream. Worked a treat on the floors though.
posted by loquacious at 11:26 PM on February 15, 2019 [5 favorites]


Eventually, it all ends up at "you do you".
posted by fullerine at 1:05 AM on February 16, 2019


Okay, an anecdote: in another life as a crisis helpline volunteer, we'd get what some people would call "sexually demanding" phone calls. I'm mentioning this because the content of the call wasn't a good indicator of whether it was a sexual call per se or not - sex and sexuality being big problem areas, lots of people need to speak about this stuff, it's not about gratification - and some calls which on the surface had no sexual content at all on the, uh, evidence definitely were creating sexual gratification for the person who was calling. Not sure if this was a serious comment but the "sex mode" concept actually fits this quite well - the caller was in sex mode even if what they were talking about was innocuous; the volunteer wasn't but was still being dragged into the dynamic.
posted by the cat's pyjamas at 1:38 AM on February 16, 2019 [13 favorites]


"You do you" unambiguously masturbation.
posted by Nothing at 4:29 AM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]


what is an unenthusiastic handjob

I keep hearing this in the voice of a Jeopardy! contestant. Which is not my fetish, though it must be someone's.
posted by cage and aquarium at 7:08 AM on February 16, 2019 [11 favorites]


Anyhow, my actual less sleep-deprived thought was: I'd only need a universal standard of What Counts if I'm comparing my performance to other people's. Doing so, while it is the norm now, doesn't suit me. Maybe that's just being a sore loser; fine. But I resist the current norm of making sex a competition, the sexcalator, why bother if you aren't Pushing the Boundaries. (I'm not kinky, and so I have trouble bothering at all. Why bother driving your gray sedan around the block while everyone else is drag racing nitro-fueled party wagons through the desert?)

So no universal standard for me, thanks. House rules only, and each person has their own house rules.
posted by cage and aquarium at 7:17 AM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]


Maybe it needs to be like the (wrongly culturally appropriated) 30 different eskimo words for snow and invent more words for the various varieties of activity. Cold sex, bad sex, evil sex, even rape, is some form of the term "sex". What could be an overriding encompassing non-pejorative word for the good kinds. Preferably one that even prudes can use on TeeVee.
posted by sammyo at 7:19 AM on February 16, 2019


This feels like part of a sort of modern Puritan project to solve the messy human problem of sex by proving intellectually that it either doesn’t really exist, or is universal and constant, which amounts to much the same thing in many lights.
posted by Segundus at 7:19 AM on February 16, 2019 [4 favorites]


Just because everyone made fun of me doesn't mean my comment wasn't serious.
posted by bleep at 7:41 AM on February 16, 2019 [5 favorites]


Huh. I thought several people agreed with you or at least you caused them to think.
posted by aleph at 7:49 AM on February 16, 2019 [3 favorites]


Yeah, I thought “sex mode” was a clever coinage.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 7:54 AM on February 16, 2019 [3 favorites]


I mean it's not a turn of phrase it's a thing that happens.
posted by bleep at 8:29 AM on February 16, 2019


I thought you meant more than a turn of phrase as well. I think it is/can be more complicated but sure...
posted by aleph at 9:28 AM on February 16, 2019


what is an unenthusiastic handjob

One staunch hallmark is egregious frowning.
posted by CynicalKnight at 9:49 AM on February 16, 2019 [4 favorites]


I suspect that sex is one of those things that, like art, love, and religion, are best defined by archetypes rather than diagnostic rules.

Which is tangentially related to boundaries, I can decline for my mental health social touches or forms of familiarity that are widely agreed to be completely non-sexual. That doesn't need justification beyond, "I don't feel like it."
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:56 AM on February 16, 2019


And I'm not sure that we need one universal definition. When my doctor asks, she's really asking about STDs and birth control. With partners, emotional care comes into the picture, and that might be more important than fluid exchange. And those differences in meaning wouldn't be so bad if our culture didn't have all these taboos about negotiating that meaning as we do with art, love, and religion.

I can say that I'm a romantic and that headspace (broader than the strict kink sence) is good, panicspace is bad, and physical arousal and orgasm are not essential to either. The Tori Amos line, "So you can make me cum. That doesn't make you Jesus." comes to mind. If I could edit my history, it would be to create a space so that I could explore my own desire without having straight piv and oral sex on a pedestal of adult peak experience.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 10:37 AM on February 16, 2019 [1 favorite]


It's just... challenging when you're an old boring fart and realizing that you live in a world where the norm is "IDK, I was frotting in a pool at a sex party but that's, like, hand-holding pointless G-rated nothing, amirite?"

From her description it sounded hot and got her turned on. She's just not sure whether to define it as sex, foreplay, cuddling or what. If your handholding is nothing to you that's fine, but also fine if it's elsewhere on the spectrum of cuddling to foreplay. As long as it makes you and your partner happy, how could it be boring?
posted by Margalo Epps at 11:00 AM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]


we need forehead blinkenlight panel to indicate 'sex mode' in all human people

you joke, but here's a kickstarter kinda with that idea
posted by anem0ne at 11:21 PM on February 15 [+] [!]


certain human people really have lost the ability to flirt, haven't they? isn't this (wasn't this?) the exact function of flirting? zero-emissions 'sex-mode' indication?
posted by eustatic at 11:02 AM on February 16, 2019 [1 favorite]


I take it back, i do like this diagram of the sex zone, and four categories of sex mode. it's just all so californian and robotic, though. can't we just talk?

i really hope that people don't feel the need to universally define sex to do it, it's much more effective to just figure these things out with the certain limited set of less than 30 people-- and then really just the one person, oftentimes, who you are most likely to have sex with
posted by eustatic at 11:22 AM on February 16, 2019


It's cheaper to use words. Also more adult.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 11:25 AM on February 16, 2019 [1 favorite]


When I’m looking and feeling good enough, anything I do is sex in some universe.
posted by maxsparber at 12:49 PM on February 16, 2019 [3 favorites]


If you don't believe in sex outside marriage, nothing you do can be sex unless you're married to them. So that rules the hottub experience out, right there.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:03 PM on February 16, 2019 [3 favorites]


fwiw, from a biological perspective on sex, radiolab delved into gonads and gender fluidity, which i found interesting! :P
posted by kliuless at 4:32 PM on February 16, 2019


Yeah but my vibrator is.

Text me.
posted by loquacious at 12:42 AM on February 17, 2019 [1 favorite]


Why not both? Make it like those pagers at chain restaurants
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:53 AM on February 17, 2019


what is an unenthusiastic handjob

A plot element in one of this year's Best Picture nominees.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:06 AM on February 18, 2019 [2 favorites]


. As long as it makes you and your partner happy, how could it be boring?

There are all kinds in this world! Despite the Discourse, boring people still exist out there! We're terminally uncool, but we still live out our lives somehow. Like the last dinosaurs, roaming the plains after the ascent of mammals. Which was not really a thing per se. Metaphors are hard.
posted by cage and aquarium at 10:19 AM on February 18, 2019 [1 favorite]


As long as it makes you and your partner happy, how could it be boring?

I think the "boring" here is intended to read "boring to you," not "boring to others." In general, I find that people in happy, comfortable relationships often think of them as boring to other people, whether or not that is necessarily the case. I would certainly characterize mine that way, because it's a general source of predictability and comfort in my life--despite being different in a number of ways from the relationship you are describing, cage the aquarium.

I don't think the author is really trying to make people who are vanilla or monogamous feel shamed for being uninteresting and "default" here, either; I think she's just trying to think about how she defines and discusses "sex" and "things that are sexual but not sex full-stop" and where that line sits. As someone who mentioned a distinction upthread that I certainly think of as boring and not interesting, despite the fact that I almost certainly get a lot less action than you do, I'm... wary of assuming that someone being honest about something that has been making them think in the context of their own life is a judgement on your life, or in any way directed at you.

This is particularly true when the author makes it very clear that she is not being prescriptive about how anyone else should think, only questioning her own definitions and thinking about how her own mindset has changed over time. I may be sensitive to this because I am really, really used to speaking frankly about my life and how it is shaping my thinking and getting a lot of defensive interrogations about how I am (perceived) to be judging or criticizing how someone else is living their life, but I am seeing a lot of that in this thread.

She's living a life that makes her happy. So are you, presumably. It's not a judgement on you that those things are different.
posted by sciatrix at 10:37 AM on February 18, 2019 [2 favorites]


Why not both? Make it like those pagers at chain restaurants

I'm pretty dirty but I don't know about this restaurant pager thing.

And I just wish I had one of them fancy newfangled connected vibes, but they're crazy expensive. I bet they already have one that interacts with and alerts on other vibes within range of WiFi/Bluetooth/NFC.
posted by loquacious at 12:03 PM on February 18, 2019


She's living a life that makes her happy. So are you, presumably. It's not a judgement on you that those things are different.

Ace-spectrum folks are exempt from this pressure. It's okay to define your relationship as you wish because you have that label. The rest of the queer world can, too.

The rest of us, well. If you aren't DTF, you aren't GGG, and therefore you're a bad person. I didn't make the rules.
posted by cage and aquarium at 1:41 PM on February 18, 2019 [1 favorite]


*snort* I promise, we are not exempt. It's just that we get it both ends--being judged for being prudish and possibly so repressed we veer into derangement, and being judged for being open about our realities and therefore absolutely and definitely implicitly calling any given listener a huge slutty perv for whatever their sex lives include. Do you have any idea how often I've been interrogated as to how I'm broken for casually mentioning my experience--people asking about what's in my pants, or my rape history, or my medical details, so they can explain me away into a box they think is normal enough? And that's particularly the case for certain sex-positive circles.

Also, lol at the idea that I have a get-out-of-judgement-free label for my sexuality because I'm queer--buddy, I developed actual traumatic associations with other queer people after some folks became convinced that my own expression of sexuality was harming them and kept coming after me. Quit telling me what my experiences are. Or this woman's, for that matter. I know what prude-shaming looks like, and this is really not it.

It's a shitty bind, but then I find that there is literally no expression of human sexuality that no one will judge you for. So please stop assuming that there's some group of people that have managed to unlock a judgement-free zone where they're both cool and experienced and having all these fascinating sex acts and also not a gross slut who will fuck anything and engage in any perversion and needs to be kept apart from the children. Seriously. That judgement-free zone does not exist. I don't care who you are, or who you think is "doing sex right:" they've had an awful lot of people tell them they're doing it really badly wrong and are therefore bad themselves, too. The grass looks an awful lot greener when it isn't yours.
posted by sciatrix at 2:02 PM on February 18, 2019 [7 favorites]


I'm sorry for -splaining on several levels, now that I think twice about it. I'll try to be more conscious of that.

What I should say is that all sorts of people get judged, but when people judge ace or queer people or "promiscuous" people, they are wrong. They're prudes/phobes/on the wrong side of history. Those groups should not be judged, because they're not doing anything wrong.

If, as I alluded to, Dan Savage says that I deserve to be lied to and cheated on because I'm not kinky enough, well, that's okay. He's on the right side of history, and has millions of followers to show for it. I'm in the wrong, and it's okay to call that out. Likewise, the blogger in TFA is more progressive than I am because of their activities, and it's okay to be proud of that. It's good.

tldr, what I didn't express well is that ace-spectrum and elsewise queer folks can't be justifiably criticized. Only by hateful jerks, and their opinions don't matter.
posted by cage and aquarium at 4:32 AM on February 19, 2019


I'm not entirely convinced that Savage is on the right side of history here. And if we're going to have consent culture we need to respect that people will choose not to have sex, and that doesn't need justification in relationship to some internalized sexual essence.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 6:06 AM on February 19, 2019 [1 favorite]


Dan Savage has been wrong about a lot of things in a lot of ways, some of which he has improved about over time and some of which he is not. (source: am a bisexual fat person, a double whammy of "boy, has Dan Savage said some real bullshit about me!") Let's not declare him as the ultimate source of right-or-wrong on anything that's not his own life, please.
posted by Stacey at 6:09 AM on February 19, 2019 [2 favorites]


I'd love to believe that - I stopped reading the column after 25 years / listening to the podcast after about ~10 years for Reasons like that. I have serious reservations about saying "consent is important, but people who use it to say no waive their right to basic human respect." It's super unwoke of me, I know! I'm abandoning all those It Gets Better kids! But I just... can't with the ethos right now.

But I worry that the only alternative is old-school, oppressive awfulness straight out of the 50s. I don't know about any other ethos or any other definitive experts. I mean, there's that Come as You Are book, but that's only for cis women.

IOW, I don't want to be Mike Pence-esque, so I have to swallow my misgivings and listen to the progressive ethos. I hate parts of it, but otherwise I'm hurting folks like the blogger linked in the OP.
posted by cage and aquarium at 6:56 AM on February 19, 2019 [1 favorite]


Seconding very strongly that Dan Savage is a piece of shit and his views on sexuality, consent, monogamy, body size are all shaming and many times absurdly wrong. If you’re taking his views as being part of a wider society narrative — well, that’s actually a lot like taking what Pence or Hannity says to heart and feeling like you’re out of sync with other people because of them. People want some authority figure to tell them how to feel, Savage positioned himself as one, and now they use him as an excuse to get away with bad behavior. It doesn’t mean he’s correct or that you should feel bad about people who parrot his catchphrases back to you. Look upon them as someone spouting Fox propaganda at you and look for more reasonable people. Sexperts like Emily Nagoski (her Come As You Are Book is groundbreaking) who base their views on the best science we have now are far better to listen to when it comes to what is “normal” or “healthy.”

Savage is a gross wolf in sheep’s clothing, he gets away with what he says because he’s a white guy with enormous privilege that he uses to judge people he considers to be less enlightened to him.

If he has done damage to you, well, he has done damage to a lot of people across a wide spectrum of identities.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 7:21 AM on February 19, 2019 [4 favorites]


I read CAYA and I'm sure it was really useful to those whom it's for. I'm not 100% sure I am that, so I found it kind of alienating, even though its info was sound. OJST is fun, but it's for tattooed queer monogamish types (which is awesome! it just isn't me). And so on. People are fascinatingly varied and the historical discourse has been overly focused on the shitty mainstream, so it's good that everyone else has their moment in the sun.

Some of us need authorities because we don't make lifelong in-depth studies of every subject; I don't think that's bad. I listen to scientists, analysts, etc. in other arenas. Informed people.
posted by cage and aquarium at 7:47 AM on February 19, 2019


Yeah, just came back to say fuck Dan Savage and his “if somebody doesn’t want to fuck the way you want to fuck they are a Terrible Person” bullshit. He is not on the right side of history and someday we will come for him too.
posted by corb at 7:50 AM on February 19, 2019 [2 favorites]


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