Good Cocktails Sans Alcohol
March 24, 2019 1:56 AM Subscribe
NPR's Kristen Hartke explores the world of zero-proof spirits - companies like Seedlip, Stryyk, and Ceder's that make non-alcoholic but still flavourful spirits.
We bought recently a bottle of Ginish, which was pretty nice when mixed with tonic. If you know it's not gin, it's definitely not gin, but I'm not sure I would notice if just handed a G+T with it.
I'll have to look for some of these other ones!
posted by vernondalhart at 3:25 AM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'll have to look for some of these other ones!
posted by vernondalhart at 3:25 AM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
I was very attracted to seedlip in the supermarket because of the packaging, and then I saw the price. It was £28 for flavoured water! Seemed like madness to me and I can't imagine paying for that, so I guess I'm not the market, even though I like cocktails but very rarely drink alcohol.
posted by stillnocturnal at 3:59 AM on March 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by stillnocturnal at 3:59 AM on March 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
I’m surprised to not have seen these in Sweden yet. Here, nonalcoholic beer is big; it’s available pretty much everywhere, and there are dozens of varieties, some of which taste less odd than others. (I’d characterise the taste of nonalcoholic beer as “glossy”, though can’t really explain it beyond that.)
posted by acb at 4:18 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by acb at 4:18 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I have a bottle of each variety in our liquor cabinet right now but probably won’t buy them again. I actually do like the Grove and Spice types for lightening up the booze of a cocktail - for instance, a “Negroni” with seedlip, Campari, and sweet vermouth. But the basic formula for a simple seedlip drink seems to be seedlip + soda (tonic, ginger, cola), and those all ultimately just feel like kinda fancy soda to me, and that’s not what I’m looking for.
As noted above, the Garden variety is straight pickles, and I do not understand what you would want to use it in other than maybe a Bloody Mary. I haven’t enjoyed any drink I’ve made with it.
posted by obfuscation at 4:35 AM on March 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
As noted above, the Garden variety is straight pickles, and I do not understand what you would want to use it in other than maybe a Bloody Mary. I haven’t enjoyed any drink I’ve made with it.
posted by obfuscation at 4:35 AM on March 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
And yes, they’re really expensive. I appreciate the craft that goes into them, but for something that’s explicitly not even meant to be sipped alone, that’s an awful lot of money to drop.
posted by obfuscation at 4:38 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by obfuscation at 4:38 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
The craft is only the development of the flavor mix. After that it's all manufacturing and bottling flavored water.
posted by hippybear at 5:01 AM on March 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 5:01 AM on March 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
Isn't this actually the backstory of Coca Cola and Dr Pepper and so forth?
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:10 AM on March 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:10 AM on March 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
There are a lot of options for sweet non-alcoholic drinks (including asking for something like a grapefruit juice and soda, which most bars can accommodate), but not many for those of us who don’t like sweet things! I enjoy the Curious Elixers no. 2 mostly because of that—it’s spicy and has a nice consistency (doesn’t just feel like high priced water). But one of the benefits of cutting alcohol out of my life has been saving money, and I’m not looking to reverse that trend.
I didn’t stop drinking due to social media but more because of age—mid-thirties means I feel every drink the next morning and I’m trying to be healthier overall (another reason why I’m not looking to replace beers with sugary juice). And I’ve been starting to see friends really struggle with substance abuse in a way that made drinking seem less like harmless fun. It’s been nothing but positive benefits for me and much easier than I thought it would be, although a couple friends of mine are notably uncomfortable about it, treating it as a monumental task that I have to go through life without a glass of wine!
I found a fairly good substitute for my beloved Campari: Crodino. I just wish I could find kombucha or other bottled drinks with less than 7 or 8 grams of sugar per serving.
posted by sallybrown at 5:50 AM on March 24, 2019 [15 favorites]
I didn’t stop drinking due to social media but more because of age—mid-thirties means I feel every drink the next morning and I’m trying to be healthier overall (another reason why I’m not looking to replace beers with sugary juice). And I’ve been starting to see friends really struggle with substance abuse in a way that made drinking seem less like harmless fun. It’s been nothing but positive benefits for me and much easier than I thought it would be, although a couple friends of mine are notably uncomfortable about it, treating it as a monumental task that I have to go through life without a glass of wine!
I found a fairly good substitute for my beloved Campari: Crodino. I just wish I could find kombucha or other bottled drinks with less than 7 or 8 grams of sugar per serving.
posted by sallybrown at 5:50 AM on March 24, 2019 [15 favorites]
I didn’t stop drinking due to social media but more because of age—mid-thirties means I feel every drink the next morning .........
I have known several people, who really did not seem close to having any sort of drinking problem, stop drinking totally, because even one drink made them feel terrible the next day.
although a couple friends of mine are notably uncomfortable about it, treating it as a monumental task that I have to go through life without a glass of wine!
It's almost like some people think that the positive cultural associations around alcohol (relaxation, togetherness with friends, the finer things in life) are actually in the alcohol. I've seen, on drinking support boards, people reporting that their therapists tried to talk them out of stopping drinking totally, as if this was some kind of disaster that would stop them living a full life.
posted by thelonius at 6:56 AM on March 24, 2019 [15 favorites]
I have known several people, who really did not seem close to having any sort of drinking problem, stop drinking totally, because even one drink made them feel terrible the next day.
although a couple friends of mine are notably uncomfortable about it, treating it as a monumental task that I have to go through life without a glass of wine!
It's almost like some people think that the positive cultural associations around alcohol (relaxation, togetherness with friends, the finer things in life) are actually in the alcohol. I've seen, on drinking support boards, people reporting that their therapists tried to talk them out of stopping drinking totally, as if this was some kind of disaster that would stop them living a full life.
posted by thelonius at 6:56 AM on March 24, 2019 [15 favorites]
Bon Appetit also wrote about alcohol free drinks recently. I quit drinking a year ago for health reasons so this is my area of interest!
posted by ellieBOA at 7:49 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 7:49 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
This sounds really interesting, but it looks like distribution may be limited to the U.K. Any ideas how to source in the US?
posted by Otherwise at 7:53 AM on March 24, 2019
posted by Otherwise at 7:53 AM on March 24, 2019
Apparently any liquid can be infused and distilled, but according to The Royal Society of Chemistry, "...choosing the right botanicals, with the right flavour molecules, in the right ratios isn’t the whole story, how the ethanol extracts their oils is also important for determining the final flavour of a gin."
posted by jim in austin at 8:01 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 8:01 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Otherwise - the seedlip site has a US store; that’s where I bought mine.
posted by obfuscation at 8:15 AM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by obfuscation at 8:15 AM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
Gin I think especially will suffer because the crisp burn of the alcohol is a big part of the flavour of a G&T.
We've more or less entirely switched to Heineken alcohol free for home drinking; we cook a lot of food that's great with beer, and it's nice to have one that doesn't dull your thoughts or load you with too many calories. Strongly prefer the Heine to others I've tried, it's not perfect but it's close enough.
Alcohol free wine, nahhhhhhhh.
posted by ominous_paws at 8:21 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
We've more or less entirely switched to Heineken alcohol free for home drinking; we cook a lot of food that's great with beer, and it's nice to have one that doesn't dull your thoughts or load you with too many calories. Strongly prefer the Heine to others I've tried, it's not perfect but it's close enough.
Alcohol free wine, nahhhhhhhh.
posted by ominous_paws at 8:21 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
Would love to try, but doesn't look like any in Toronto yet. Price point is bonkers, though.
posted by dobbs at 8:21 AM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by dobbs at 8:21 AM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
This seems like both a nice idea and super decadent given the price.
I did used to work at a cafe that specialized in flavored iced coffees. There were excellent whiskey, rum, and spiced rum varieties that did an amazing job of tasting pleasantly like alcohol. I've never seen the business model anywhere else, but they were ordering all those flavors from somewhere. Anyone familiar with these? IMHO, that's a nice poor-man's alternative.
posted by es_de_bah at 8:23 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
I did used to work at a cafe that specialized in flavored iced coffees. There were excellent whiskey, rum, and spiced rum varieties that did an amazing job of tasting pleasantly like alcohol. I've never seen the business model anywhere else, but they were ordering all those flavors from somewhere. Anyone familiar with these? IMHO, that's a nice poor-man's alternative.
posted by es_de_bah at 8:23 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
Angoustra makes a drink that's carbonated with bitters and sugars, and I've found that it alone gives me the "cocktail" feel.
I've also tried many varieties of Italian red bitter drinks like Sanbitter. They can basically be thought of as non-alcoholic Campari or Aperol, so it's easy to make a great drink with them.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:25 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
I've also tried many varieties of Italian red bitter drinks like Sanbitter. They can basically be thought of as non-alcoholic Campari or Aperol, so it's easy to make a great drink with them.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:25 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
I have known several people, who really did not seem close to having any sort of drinking problem, stop drinking totally, because even one drink made them feel terrible the next day.
That might be the alcohol flush reaction, which affects about a third of people with East Asian ancestry. It's produced by a build-up of acetaldehyde, which is a similar effect to the drug Antabuse that's taken by some alcoholics to help them kick the habit by making them sick when they drink.
Personally, I might try a mocktail once in a while, but, aside from not wanting anything with sugar in it (because diabetes), I also find myself getting subconsciously frustrated by drinks that taste like they should get me drunk, but don't, even though I'm having them because I'm sober. It's why I don't drink near-beer; I'll find myself shotgunning them without intending to because I'm still conditioned to drink solely for the purpose of getting drunk, and I don't want to prompt that reaction in myself, for the obvious reason. The closest I'll get to mocktail land is the ever-popular club soda with lime, or sparkling nonalcoholic cider for toasting purposes at weddings.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:33 AM on March 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
That might be the alcohol flush reaction, which affects about a third of people with East Asian ancestry. It's produced by a build-up of acetaldehyde, which is a similar effect to the drug Antabuse that's taken by some alcoholics to help them kick the habit by making them sick when they drink.
Personally, I might try a mocktail once in a while, but, aside from not wanting anything with sugar in it (because diabetes), I also find myself getting subconsciously frustrated by drinks that taste like they should get me drunk, but don't, even though I'm having them because I'm sober. It's why I don't drink near-beer; I'll find myself shotgunning them without intending to because I'm still conditioned to drink solely for the purpose of getting drunk, and I don't want to prompt that reaction in myself, for the obvious reason. The closest I'll get to mocktail land is the ever-popular club soda with lime, or sparkling nonalcoholic cider for toasting purposes at weddings.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:33 AM on March 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
That might be the alcohol flush reaction, which affects about a third of people with East Asian ancestry.
I have seen that (a kid in my freshman dorm got that; assholes tried to get him to drink because he looked and acted funny), and I don't think these folks had it.
posted by thelonius at 8:40 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I have seen that (a kid in my freshman dorm got that; assholes tried to get him to drink because he looked and acted funny), and I don't think these folks had it.
posted by thelonius at 8:40 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I've said for years that I wish a good tasting, non(or very low)alcoholic bourbon substitute would be developed. I could drink Old Fashioneds all day!
posted by tonyx3 at 8:41 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by tonyx3 at 8:41 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
My father in law doesn’t drink but he rest of the family does, so I got a bottle of Seedlip when they were here for Christmas. We drank cocktails, he drank mocktails, it was slightly festive and good for that purpose. For me, if I’m not drinking drinking I’ll just have some bitters and soda. Only trace amounts of alcohol and it’s not boring.
posted by mikesch at 8:49 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by mikesch at 8:49 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Speaking as a pregnant person who has been pregnant twice before, I've remarked many times on what a gaping hole in most cocktail menus this is. Under normal circumstances I'm happy to shell out like $12 for a glass of wine but once I'm not able to imbibe suddenly nobody wants my money.
It's definitely gotten better for me with each pregnancy but I was assuming it was because I'd moved to the suburbs where tons of people don't drink, so I'm interested to see that this is apparently an industry conversation that's happening as well. It should be clear from the stunning rise in LaCroix sales that there are a whole lot of people right now who want something to sip that isn't water, super-sweet soda, or alcohol. It's always such a relief to see something I want to drink on the menu. Last night with my high end southwestern food I had a not too sweet lemonade with jalapenos and cilantro and didn't feel deprived at all.
posted by potrzebie at 9:29 AM on March 24, 2019 [14 favorites]
It's definitely gotten better for me with each pregnancy but I was assuming it was because I'd moved to the suburbs where tons of people don't drink, so I'm interested to see that this is apparently an industry conversation that's happening as well. It should be clear from the stunning rise in LaCroix sales that there are a whole lot of people right now who want something to sip that isn't water, super-sweet soda, or alcohol. It's always such a relief to see something I want to drink on the menu. Last night with my high end southwestern food I had a not too sweet lemonade with jalapenos and cilantro and didn't feel deprived at all.
posted by potrzebie at 9:29 AM on March 24, 2019 [14 favorites]
I appreciate the craft that goes into them, but for something that’s explicitly not even meant to be sipped alone, that’s an awful lot of money to drop.
Yeah, $36 US is well into super premium territory. I can get a 750 of Beefeater for $21 (and a handle for $25 or so), Plymouth for $30, and Hendrick's for $34. I mean, I get that they're positioning the product a certain way, but at that price it seems like a product I'd have a really hard time justifying even once, much less making it a regular purchase. That's a pour cost of over $4 for a not-gin and suitably premium tonic. If they priced it like Beefeater (a premium, but not super-premium gin) I'd be much more interested in keeping it on hand.
posted by fedward at 9:49 AM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yeah, $36 US is well into super premium territory. I can get a 750 of Beefeater for $21 (and a handle for $25 or so), Plymouth for $30, and Hendrick's for $34. I mean, I get that they're positioning the product a certain way, but at that price it seems like a product I'd have a really hard time justifying even once, much less making it a regular purchase. That's a pour cost of over $4 for a not-gin and suitably premium tonic. If they priced it like Beefeater (a premium, but not super-premium gin) I'd be much more interested in keeping it on hand.
posted by fedward at 9:49 AM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
Not wanting to be blackout drunk is always a good goal, but choosing not to drink when out with friends can sometimes be viewed as social suicide.
Really? I can think of plenty of reasons why someone might not drink, including just "I'm taking a break from alcohol." If you friends are assholes enough to give you shit for not imbibing, they'll give you shit when they notice you're ordering mocktails.
Non-alcoholic drinks aren't going to solve the "my friends are assholes" problem.
posted by explosion at 10:18 AM on March 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
Really? I can think of plenty of reasons why someone might not drink, including just "I'm taking a break from alcohol." If you friends are assholes enough to give you shit for not imbibing, they'll give you shit when they notice you're ordering mocktails.
Non-alcoholic drinks aren't going to solve the "my friends are assholes" problem.
posted by explosion at 10:18 AM on March 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
This is way out of my price range, but relevant to my interests. I just hosted a lovely little no-alcohol dance party and DJ night at my friend's multi-use tea lounge, book store and art space where we had a nice plant-based potluck.
The venue is going without serving alcohol or getting a license on purpose because the owners both don't drink, but more importantly it actually gives them a lot more freedom as a venue and the ability to stay open much later than bars, with drastically reduced insurance and other benefits, like not dealing with drunks.
Additionally we don't have many alcohol free or all ages music venues in town, and this is proving to be popular with a lot of people who either can't or won't drink, or are on a budget, or just want to have fun without having to feel obligated to imbibe or be around alcohol.
So last night they were doing some tests of mocktails with extracts and bitters and such and they were very delicious. They were so much like a cocktail I felt like I shouldn't walk outside with one in my hand lest the cops got the wrong idea.
Not only did we have a blast with no booze required, but it was even sophisticated, adult and classy and very social despite the lack of cocktails.
To be honest I spent half the night after things got going kind of hoping the cops would show up to check out what the deal was with all the bass music and weirdos hanging out outside, because I just wanted to see how it would go.
"What's all this then?"
"We're raving, dancing and getting all jacked up on tea and healthy vegan food!"
"Wait, what? Isn't that a cocktail in your hand?"
"Nah, it's fruit juice, bitters and soda. You should try one, it's delicious and good for you!"
"Well, where's the drugs then? Who has the mushrooms?"
"Drugs...? I guess caffeine is a drug, and I think there's some button mushrooms in the kale salad. Would you like some tea or coffee?"
"Alright, wise ass, up against the car." *frisking happens and pockets are turned out* "Why the hell do you have an avocado in your pocket, a compass and three flashlights?"
"Just in case I get lost and hungry? Why do you have a gun on your belt?"
"Oh my God, ok, just get out of here. Goddamn hippies..."
posted by loquacious at 10:40 AM on March 24, 2019 [22 favorites]
The venue is going without serving alcohol or getting a license on purpose because the owners both don't drink, but more importantly it actually gives them a lot more freedom as a venue and the ability to stay open much later than bars, with drastically reduced insurance and other benefits, like not dealing with drunks.
Additionally we don't have many alcohol free or all ages music venues in town, and this is proving to be popular with a lot of people who either can't or won't drink, or are on a budget, or just want to have fun without having to feel obligated to imbibe or be around alcohol.
So last night they were doing some tests of mocktails with extracts and bitters and such and they were very delicious. They were so much like a cocktail I felt like I shouldn't walk outside with one in my hand lest the cops got the wrong idea.
Not only did we have a blast with no booze required, but it was even sophisticated, adult and classy and very social despite the lack of cocktails.
To be honest I spent half the night after things got going kind of hoping the cops would show up to check out what the deal was with all the bass music and weirdos hanging out outside, because I just wanted to see how it would go.
"What's all this then?"
"We're raving, dancing and getting all jacked up on tea and healthy vegan food!"
"Wait, what? Isn't that a cocktail in your hand?"
"Nah, it's fruit juice, bitters and soda. You should try one, it's delicious and good for you!"
"Well, where's the drugs then? Who has the mushrooms?"
"Drugs...? I guess caffeine is a drug, and I think there's some button mushrooms in the kale salad. Would you like some tea or coffee?"
"Alright, wise ass, up against the car." *frisking happens and pockets are turned out* "Why the hell do you have an avocado in your pocket, a compass and three flashlights?"
"Just in case I get lost and hungry? Why do you have a gun on your belt?"
"Oh my God, ok, just get out of here. Goddamn hippies..."
posted by loquacious at 10:40 AM on March 24, 2019 [22 favorites]
This is Extremely Relevant to me, as I'm debating dropping the coin for a bottle of Seedlip. (One of my co-workers doesn't drink and has already volunteered to take the bottle if I don't want it.) In the meantime, I appreciate the recommendations for bitters and soda and lovely things like that. For basically the exact same reasons sallybrown outlines, I've virtually stopped drinking. No hard liquor, and beer only rarely. (I was never much of a wine-drinker.) I dislike how dumb and lazy even a beer makes me, and more than one leaves me feeling awful the next day. I do miss the herbaceous taste of gin; lavender kombucha doesn't quite get there. (I'm not particularly fussed about sugars so I've played around with shrubs, and this thread reminds me that I wanted to make a few more to see how they go with more herbs than fruits.) I wish things like Seedlip were at a better price point, but if this is the vanguard, I look forward to the day I can order something grown-up and without alcohol at a restaurant.
posted by kalimac at 11:28 AM on March 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by kalimac at 11:28 AM on March 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
oh man, at first glance I thought this post was about zero-knowledge proof. Which are /probably/ easier if you've only been drinking zero-proof booze.
posted by kaibutsu at 11:34 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 11:34 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm intrigued, since I tend to prefer savory to sweet drinks, and most mocktails are sugary.
I do wonder, though, if these drinks are truly devoid of alcohol. "Non-alcoholic" beers like O'Douls still contain a bit of alcohol, which is a bit too much for some folks. I'll inquire.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 11:51 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I do wonder, though, if these drinks are truly devoid of alcohol. "Non-alcoholic" beers like O'Douls still contain a bit of alcohol, which is a bit too much for some folks. I'll inquire.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 11:51 AM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I second the recommendation for soda water with a dash of bitters. Most bars will do it for cheap or even free in my experience. Negligible alcohol and calories, really scratches that "I want a drink but don't want a drink" itch.
posted by Emily's Fist at 11:59 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Emily's Fist at 11:59 AM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
I do wonder, though, if these drinks are truly devoid of alcohol. "Non-alcoholic" beers like O'Douls still contain a bit of alcohol, which is a bit too much for some folks. I'll inquire.
If they contain alcohol based extracts or bitters they will have some small amount of alcohol, yes, and yes, this can be a problem or trigger for people who need or wish to abstain from all alcohol. Percentage-wise a mocktail with bitters or extracts is going to be well under 0.5-1% alcohol, which is less than most kombucha.
Kombucha can also be a bit too alcoholic and a trigger like this, or even vaguely intoxicating. There have been times when I was abstaining from alcohol and I found that I sure liked kombucha and found that the mild glow from it to be very pleasant and refreshing.
Not enough to go out of my way and start regularly buying the stuff by the gallon but I'd occasionally buy one or say yes when it was offered, especially some of the really nice local brews and live on tap offerings. These live kombuchas peak out at around 2-3% ABV, max, and tend to more be in the 1-2% range.
Around here it's actually remarkably common at family friendly social events, like square dances at an actual grange, or house music dance parties at a cafe, farm or the same grange hall where there's no actual higher percentage alcohol or cocktails being served, but people will bring lots of kombucha in growler jugs like it was beer, and even set up tea lounges and stuff. I also see it regularly served along side beer, wine and cocktails at more adult parties.
So, yes, it could be a problematic trigger for alcoholism.
On the whole, though, it seems to be remarkably healthy. Like water or tea, you can only drink so much kombucha or soda and bitters or mocktails.
Kombucha is super tasty and complex like beer and full of vitamins and good stuff, and being around a bunch of people hopped up on kombucha at a dance party is such a remarkably different and civilized and healthy thing than the same kind of dance party at a proper bar with a bunch of booze. Those healthy hippies sure are well hydrated and chock full of micro nutrients and vitamins even though they like to dance for hours on end.
And speaking as someone who likes alcohol so much that their favorite flavor of cocktail is traditionally any given well vodka, neat, no ice, preferably in a rocks glass - I welcome these lower or no-alcohol adult beverages heartily.
I think the mocktails I had last night might have been entirely alcohol free and just fancy soda water and juices, and lacking bitters or extracts. And they were delicious and warming and artful just like a nice cocktail.
posted by loquacious at 12:32 PM on March 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
If they contain alcohol based extracts or bitters they will have some small amount of alcohol, yes, and yes, this can be a problem or trigger for people who need or wish to abstain from all alcohol. Percentage-wise a mocktail with bitters or extracts is going to be well under 0.5-1% alcohol, which is less than most kombucha.
Kombucha can also be a bit too alcoholic and a trigger like this, or even vaguely intoxicating. There have been times when I was abstaining from alcohol and I found that I sure liked kombucha and found that the mild glow from it to be very pleasant and refreshing.
Not enough to go out of my way and start regularly buying the stuff by the gallon but I'd occasionally buy one or say yes when it was offered, especially some of the really nice local brews and live on tap offerings. These live kombuchas peak out at around 2-3% ABV, max, and tend to more be in the 1-2% range.
Around here it's actually remarkably common at family friendly social events, like square dances at an actual grange, or house music dance parties at a cafe, farm or the same grange hall where there's no actual higher percentage alcohol or cocktails being served, but people will bring lots of kombucha in growler jugs like it was beer, and even set up tea lounges and stuff. I also see it regularly served along side beer, wine and cocktails at more adult parties.
So, yes, it could be a problematic trigger for alcoholism.
On the whole, though, it seems to be remarkably healthy. Like water or tea, you can only drink so much kombucha or soda and bitters or mocktails.
Kombucha is super tasty and complex like beer and full of vitamins and good stuff, and being around a bunch of people hopped up on kombucha at a dance party is such a remarkably different and civilized and healthy thing than the same kind of dance party at a proper bar with a bunch of booze. Those healthy hippies sure are well hydrated and chock full of micro nutrients and vitamins even though they like to dance for hours on end.
And speaking as someone who likes alcohol so much that their favorite flavor of cocktail is traditionally any given well vodka, neat, no ice, preferably in a rocks glass - I welcome these lower or no-alcohol adult beverages heartily.
I think the mocktails I had last night might have been entirely alcohol free and just fancy soda water and juices, and lacking bitters or extracts. And they were delicious and warming and artful just like a nice cocktail.
posted by loquacious at 12:32 PM on March 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
I joined a bunch of alcohol free FB groups and went to a meet-up before Christmas in London with a Club Soda group, it was in a vegan, alcohol free bar/restaurant called Redemption that was the third to open last year!
posted by ellieBOA at 12:43 PM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by ellieBOA at 12:43 PM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
My understanding is that most of the cost of spirits (in the UK at least) is the excise duty on alcohol, so I can't see why these alcohol-free "spirits" are so expensive, unless it is to make them more like actual alcohol.
My local Tesco's sell Seedlip, but the price has put me off buying it. I only noticed they sell it because I was browsing the ciders on the next shelf when I saw another customer examine the Seedlip bottle, then give a little scream and put it back on the shelf fast.
posted by Fuchsoid at 1:17 PM on March 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
My local Tesco's sell Seedlip, but the price has put me off buying it. I only noticed they sell it because I was browsing the ciders on the next shelf when I saw another customer examine the Seedlip bottle, then give a little scream and put it back on the shelf fast.
posted by Fuchsoid at 1:17 PM on March 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
In stark contrast to the darkstar of thirty years ago, my favorite cocktails are now ones with no alcohol: a virgin pina colada if I want sweet, and a virgin Bloody Mary if I want savory.
Strangely, that “bite” of alcohol now strikes me as ruining a drink. I used to drink liquor like a fish, too, so it’s a little odd that the last twenty-five years has led me to this point.
Every now and then, I’ll buy a nice bottle of rum, or scotch, or something else I used to love, open it and drink a splash, and be repulsed. My neighbors have received about a half-dozen mostly full bottles of hooch that way.
Wish I could bottle whatever is the source of the newfound repulsion. Maybe it’s the result of one of my medications. Anyway, it’s been great for turning me into an almost tee-totaler. (Still drink the occasional glass of wine or beer, though, but nowhere near as frequently as in ages past.)
posted by darkstar at 1:22 PM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Strangely, that “bite” of alcohol now strikes me as ruining a drink. I used to drink liquor like a fish, too, so it’s a little odd that the last twenty-five years has led me to this point.
Every now and then, I’ll buy a nice bottle of rum, or scotch, or something else I used to love, open it and drink a splash, and be repulsed. My neighbors have received about a half-dozen mostly full bottles of hooch that way.
Wish I could bottle whatever is the source of the newfound repulsion. Maybe it’s the result of one of my medications. Anyway, it’s been great for turning me into an almost tee-totaler. (Still drink the occasional glass of wine or beer, though, but nowhere near as frequently as in ages past.)
posted by darkstar at 1:22 PM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I've noticed a number of the fancier restaurants around the DC area starting to serve non-alcoholic cocktails; the common term seems to be "shrub" instead of cocktail, though.
My understanding is that the true culinary definition of a "shrub" is a drink made with vinegar (instead of alcohol) and water, and they were popular before the advent of clean drinking water. I assume the vinegar either had, or was assumed to have, some sort of antimicrobial effect. Or maybe it just covered up off-tasting water. (I'm a bit curious how much acetic acid you'd have to put in water to have any significant effect on pathogens...)
It seems like the non-alcoholic cocktail scene and the craft soda scene are eventually going to run smack into each other. I know people who have gotten into craft sodamaking and it's quite an interesting hobby. A lot of the recipes start off with sugar syrup, but not all of them.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:54 PM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
My understanding is that the true culinary definition of a "shrub" is a drink made with vinegar (instead of alcohol) and water, and they were popular before the advent of clean drinking water. I assume the vinegar either had, or was assumed to have, some sort of antimicrobial effect. Or maybe it just covered up off-tasting water. (I'm a bit curious how much acetic acid you'd have to put in water to have any significant effect on pathogens...)
It seems like the non-alcoholic cocktail scene and the craft soda scene are eventually going to run smack into each other. I know people who have gotten into craft sodamaking and it's quite an interesting hobby. A lot of the recipes start off with sugar syrup, but not all of them.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:54 PM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
I am in as soon as they come out with 1. An alcohol free Maraskino, 2. An alcohol free Slivo I think the price point looks a little high for what you get, but that said, this is a really positive trend which should be encouraged. I like an alcoholic beverage once in awhile. The thing is that it really isn’t healthy to do very often. Mr. Roquette doesn’t drink at all because it causes him to have PTSD nightmares and it is a really bad idea with his medications.
I like the taste of hard liquor. Pretty much always have. The only reason I’m not a drunk is that I am very careful, I don’t hang around a bunch of heavy drinkers. Having something that tastes even close would be great. Incidentally, for you Guinness fans out there, if you use a quarter cup of strong, cold coffee with a little sugar, and put it in a pint glass and carefully pour in some seltzer water it looks like a Guinness and tastes pretty similar.. I like that as a nice summer drink.
I’ve been doing shrubs for awhile and turned some local people on to the concept.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 2:42 PM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
I like the taste of hard liquor. Pretty much always have. The only reason I’m not a drunk is that I am very careful, I don’t hang around a bunch of heavy drinkers. Having something that tastes even close would be great. Incidentally, for you Guinness fans out there, if you use a quarter cup of strong, cold coffee with a little sugar, and put it in a pint glass and carefully pour in some seltzer water it looks like a Guinness and tastes pretty similar.. I like that as a nice summer drink.
I’ve been doing shrubs for awhile and turned some local people on to the concept.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 2:42 PM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
I've noticed a number of the fancier restaurants around the DC area starting to serve non-alcoholic cocktails; the common term seems to be "shrub" instead of cocktail, though.
Oh my. I forgot about shrubs.
So my local favorite bar I host DJ nights at pretty regularly just won some "best craft cocktails in the state" award, and they've earned it with things like nettle and artichoke based cocktails and all kinds of fancy things.
And they do a variety seasonal house made shrubs. And my favorite is the seasonal local grape shrub. Because I'm sick in the head and I like grape soda and grape juice a whole lot.
That grape shrub is so much grape in your face it's like God's own grape-flavored Jolly Rancher. I will get it as a non-alcoholic beverage and/or with vodka depending on my mood when it's in season because it's just so damn good.
One time the bartender who is one of the cocktail designers overpoured the shrub on a no-alcohol version and she didn't realize what she did until I was drinking it and she started apologizing and my response was "no, no, this is fine. Hit me with that purple!"
I usually can only afford this delicious thing when I'm playing and I have drink tokens or someone is treating me, because even the non-alcoholic version of the shrub is something like ten frickin' dollars and worth every penny. It probably has so many anti-oxidants and flavonoids in it it might cure cancer, if not boredom.
And now I want a Rainier cherry or golden raspberry shrub.
posted by loquacious at 2:59 PM on March 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
Oh my. I forgot about shrubs.
So my local favorite bar I host DJ nights at pretty regularly just won some "best craft cocktails in the state" award, and they've earned it with things like nettle and artichoke based cocktails and all kinds of fancy things.
And they do a variety seasonal house made shrubs. And my favorite is the seasonal local grape shrub. Because I'm sick in the head and I like grape soda and grape juice a whole lot.
That grape shrub is so much grape in your face it's like God's own grape-flavored Jolly Rancher. I will get it as a non-alcoholic beverage and/or with vodka depending on my mood when it's in season because it's just so damn good.
One time the bartender who is one of the cocktail designers overpoured the shrub on a no-alcohol version and she didn't realize what she did until I was drinking it and she started apologizing and my response was "no, no, this is fine. Hit me with that purple!"
I usually can only afford this delicious thing when I'm playing and I have drink tokens or someone is treating me, because even the non-alcoholic version of the shrub is something like ten frickin' dollars and worth every penny. It probably has so many anti-oxidants and flavonoids in it it might cure cancer, if not boredom.
And now I want a Rainier cherry or golden raspberry shrub.
posted by loquacious at 2:59 PM on March 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
So I had the gin seedlip for the first time last week! It has a super strong and clear herbal flavour that tastes very much like a less acidic dill pickle juice.
Sounds more like nonalcoholic aquavit than nonalcoholic gin.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:00 PM on March 24, 2019
Sounds more like nonalcoholic aquavit than nonalcoholic gin.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:00 PM on March 24, 2019
I appreciate the craft that goes into them, but for something that’s explicitly not even meant to be sipped alone, that’s an awful lot of money to drop.
Just from the design of the website, you can tell that they're marketing this as a high-end product. It's a small company so they probably want to make more per unit than having to ramp up production so keeping it expensive makes sense.
I assume that if these types of things are successful, then the big name beverage companies will come out with cheaper knock-off versions in a few years.
posted by octothorpe at 3:01 PM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Just from the design of the website, you can tell that they're marketing this as a high-end product. It's a small company so they probably want to make more per unit than having to ramp up production so keeping it expensive makes sense.
I assume that if these types of things are successful, then the big name beverage companies will come out with cheaper knock-off versions in a few years.
posted by octothorpe at 3:01 PM on March 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I grew up in Pennsylvania, where a fifth of Bombay Sapphire cost $40 when I wanted to try it as a senior in college, so these prices don’t seem too terribly rough to me outside of shipping from the UK. Very intriguing stuff, and might make a good change of pace from my usual nonalcoholic standby of seltzer with some kind of bitters.
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:16 PM on March 24, 2019
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:16 PM on March 24, 2019
From Chemistry World,
Explainer: how do you make non-alcoholic beer and wine?
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:07 PM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
Explainer: how do you make non-alcoholic beer and wine?
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:07 PM on March 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
I very much approve of these, the more non alchoholic options in bars the better - but don't see the real advantage over bitters based sodas or cocktails...they sound like they're basically all botanical extracts like bitters, but somewhat pre-diluted and much more expensive. I'd give them a go though (at about an 8th the price)
posted by Jon Mitchell at 5:40 PM on March 24, 2019
posted by Jon Mitchell at 5:40 PM on March 24, 2019
I really welcome this trend as someone who has cut down on drinking but still wants to hang out with friends in bars.
I bought a bottle of Seedlip once but the price discourages me from doing so again. It was pretty good but not really better than just having tonic water or seltzer with some shrub. It seems to be getting more popular on fancy bar and restaurant menus in NYC, and I think that's a better use of it than home drinking, since professional bartenders can make more interesting concoctions with it than I can, and I don't mind spending a bit more when I'm out. Though I do think it's interesting that there's not a real consensus on pricing--I've seen Seedlip-based drinks for $6, $8, $11, $16(!)... On the other hand, I got an amazing drink made of tonic, grapefruit, grenadine, and lemon for like $3 recently, so maybe my wallet and I should stick to that.
posted by ferret branca at 6:29 PM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
I bought a bottle of Seedlip once but the price discourages me from doing so again. It was pretty good but not really better than just having tonic water or seltzer with some shrub. It seems to be getting more popular on fancy bar and restaurant menus in NYC, and I think that's a better use of it than home drinking, since professional bartenders can make more interesting concoctions with it than I can, and I don't mind spending a bit more when I'm out. Though I do think it's interesting that there's not a real consensus on pricing--I've seen Seedlip-based drinks for $6, $8, $11, $16(!)... On the other hand, I got an amazing drink made of tonic, grapefruit, grenadine, and lemon for like $3 recently, so maybe my wallet and I should stick to that.
posted by ferret branca at 6:29 PM on March 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
The price sounds like the “artisanal” part (though I would split a bottle with a friend in the spirit of experimentation). Some folks mentioned shrubs and kombucha. These are both very do-able (and cheap) at home, especially shrubs. Then you can adjust notes as you wish. Don’t like it sweet? Cut down the sugar. More tasty herbal notes? Go for it.
As for “why vinegar?” it is like asking “why lemons in lemonade?” People enjoy sourness and vinegar was the cheapest, most available sour back in the day. I find that a nice shrub once in a while is fun, except after you make it you’re left with a pint of sweet-sour fresh fruit pulp. Whatever can I do with this? I’ve never thrown it out, I will tell you that...
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 6:36 AM on March 25, 2019
As for “why vinegar?” it is like asking “why lemons in lemonade?” People enjoy sourness and vinegar was the cheapest, most available sour back in the day. I find that a nice shrub once in a while is fun, except after you make it you’re left with a pint of sweet-sour fresh fruit pulp. Whatever can I do with this? I’ve never thrown it out, I will tell you that...
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 6:36 AM on March 25, 2019
It's almost like some people think that the positive cultural associations around alcohol (relaxation, togetherness with friends, the finer things in life) are actually in the alcohol. I've seen, on drinking support boards, people reporting that their therapists tried to talk them out of stopping drinking totally, as if this was some kind of disaster that would stop them living a full life.
The book This Naked Mind goes through this in great detail, and I'd recommend the book to anyone who is curious about why they feel the way they do about alcohol whether or not they want to stop drinking. (I still drink, for the record.)
It is interesting that examining why we have these built-in beliefs often exposes them as completely not true, and actually, sometimes the cause of what you're trying to fix.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:37 AM on March 25, 2019 [3 favorites]
The book This Naked Mind goes through this in great detail, and I'd recommend the book to anyone who is curious about why they feel the way they do about alcohol whether or not they want to stop drinking. (I still drink, for the record.)
It is interesting that examining why we have these built-in beliefs often exposes them as completely not true, and actually, sometimes the cause of what you're trying to fix.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:37 AM on March 25, 2019 [3 favorites]
Would love to try, but doesn't look like any in Toronto yet. Price point is bonkers, though.
I've seen Seedlip on the shelves at the grocery store in the Manulife Centre. I was tempted to try it but after reading some reviews, it sounds like it's not worth the high prices.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 8:17 AM on March 25, 2019
I've seen Seedlip on the shelves at the grocery store in the Manulife Centre. I was tempted to try it but after reading some reviews, it sounds like it's not worth the high prices.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 8:17 AM on March 25, 2019
As we’re talking alcohol-free… can anyone in the UK recommend a very low or alcohol-free beer that isn’t sweet? I’d love to find a decent bitter or IPA, but only tend to find light beers that have little or not bitterness. I did have something from Harvey’s (of Lewes) once that wasn’t bad, but can’t find that here…
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 3:11 PM on March 25, 2019
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 3:11 PM on March 25, 2019
BrewDog Nanny State is extremely not sweet. I like it, though friends have... a range of opinions. Very easy to get hold of to try it, at least.
posted by ominous_paws at 3:35 PM on March 25, 2019
posted by ominous_paws at 3:35 PM on March 25, 2019
Sainsbury in Edinburgh sells 0.5% Speckled Hen. Tastes OK but like all of them a little 'thin' if you're expecting a beer.
posted by epo at 7:40 AM on March 26, 2019
posted by epo at 7:40 AM on March 26, 2019
Just discovered that Seedlip is available in Toronto at The Mercantile on Roncy. $45 a bottle.
posted by dobbs at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2019
posted by dobbs at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2019
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I've heard some better feedback on the whiskey/rum-ish ones, would love to try them sometime.
posted by ominous_paws at 2:06 AM on March 24, 2019 [4 favorites]