"That’s not true, but O.K."
April 11, 2019 9:26 AM Subscribe
Isaac Chotiner interviews Bret Easton Ellis, who thinks the left is "overreacting" to the Trump presidency.
(Posted this just because I think it's a great example of an interview of its type, and intended less a discussion of Trump himself than Easton Ellis's... let's say "meandering" opinions and Chotiner's on-point interview style leading him to, rather than engage more deeply, repeatedly shrug his shoulders and dissemble.)
Chotiner previously on MeFi; Easton Ellis previously on MeFi, again, again.
(Posted this just because I think it's a great example of an interview of its type, and intended less a discussion of Trump himself than Easton Ellis's... let's say "meandering" opinions and Chotiner's on-point interview style leading him to, rather than engage more deeply, repeatedly shrug his shoulders and dissemble.)
Chotiner previously on MeFi; Easton Ellis previously on MeFi, again, again.
I couldn't get past the first fucking paragraph.
"When did people start identifying so relentlessly with victims, and when did the victim’s world view become the lens through which we began to look at everything?"
What the fuck? This man wants us to identify instead with the perpetrators? Is American Psycho just actually how he wants us to identify full-time?
If this isn't what he means, well, you'd think a writer of all people would understand the importance of word choice.
posted by explosion at 9:37 AM on April 11, 2019 [38 favorites]
"When did people start identifying so relentlessly with victims, and when did the victim’s world view become the lens through which we began to look at everything?"
What the fuck? This man wants us to identify instead with the perpetrators? Is American Psycho just actually how he wants us to identify full-time?
If this isn't what he means, well, you'd think a writer of all people would understand the importance of word choice.
posted by explosion at 9:37 AM on April 11, 2019 [38 favorites]
I really have no idea who Easton Ellis is, but he comes across as a totally self-involved idiot. I guess he's got his, so he doesn't feel a need to give a fuck about anyone who isn't him.
posted by nubs at 9:39 AM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 9:39 AM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
When the link to this interview appeared in my Twitter feed (because I follow Isaac Chotiner), I was debating whether to read it in the spirit of sheer morbid curiosity/masochism/sardonic pleasure, or just leave it alone and get on with something productive. The sardonic pleasure urge won because I knew I could count on Chotiner to push back hard and call BEE out on everything he said, so I read it. The entertainment/interest value of this interview lies entirely in watching BEE not be able to defend anything he says when Chotiner is holding him firmly to account. The guy's an empty clown suit.
posted by orange swan at 9:40 AM on April 11, 2019 [29 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 9:40 AM on April 11, 2019 [29 favorites]
IC: You are a novelist. You write about the human condition. Do you worry about the self-harm of people who see things like child separation and have no emotional response?And beginning with
BEE: I think I am an absurdist. I think politics are ridiculous.
IC: Maybe don’t write a book about it. Would that be the solution?
BEE: I think the problem is that I don’t necessarily see this as interesting as fiction.
IC: Yeah, I could tell.
" ... White is Ellis’s first foray into nonfiction, and the result is less a series of glorified, padded-out blog posts than a series of regular, normal-size blog posts. Mostly, Ellis hates social media and wishes millennials would stop whining and “pull on their big boy pants”—an actual quote from this deeply needless book, whose existence one assumes we could have all been spared if Ellis’s millennial boyfriend had simply shown the famous man how to use the mute feature on Twitter."and including
"For years, Ellis has been perseverating about “ideology versus aesthetics” on The Bret Easton Ellis Podcast, where he plays the thinking man’s shock jock, talking about movies with that lush transcendence that enters a man’s voice when he is no longer forced to endure the inconvenience of talking over someone else. Cinephilia, as we know from science, is a progressive disease for which there is no cure, but Bret Easton Ellis is taking it like a champ."Andrea Long Chu's review of White in the new Bookforum is worth a read, too.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:41 AM on April 11, 2019 [45 favorites]
LGM has a good overview of Ellis and the interview.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:42 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:42 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
B. Easton Ellis: There are plenty of people who like what he is doing, so what are we saying?
I. Chotiner: There were plenty of people in favor of segregation. I am not sure how far that gets us.
B. Easton Ellis: There are plenty of people who like Donald Trump.
I. Chotiner: There are plenty of people who like all kinds of things.
B. Easton Ellis: No, I know.
I. Chotiner: You don’t have anything to add on that?
B. Easton Ellis: I think you are leading me into things I am not particularly that interested in.
I. Chotiner: Which is what, everything you wrote your book about?
*snerk*
posted by duffell at 9:43 AM on April 11, 2019 [107 favorites]
I. Chotiner: There were plenty of people in favor of segregation. I am not sure how far that gets us.
B. Easton Ellis: There are plenty of people who like Donald Trump.
I. Chotiner: There are plenty of people who like all kinds of things.
B. Easton Ellis: No, I know.
I. Chotiner: You don’t have anything to add on that?
B. Easton Ellis: I think you are leading me into things I am not particularly that interested in.
I. Chotiner: Which is what, everything you wrote your book about?
*snerk*
posted by duffell at 9:43 AM on April 11, 2019 [107 favorites]
Oh christ is he tedious. "I'm not defending Trump, I just don't like the people who are critical of him. " The sell-by date on that contrarian bullshit expired a long time ago.
posted by octothorpe at 9:44 AM on April 11, 2019 [56 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 9:44 AM on April 11, 2019 [56 favorites]
I really want Chotiner to interview every prominent Trump supporter, as at least he's prepared and has follow up, unlike nearly all other interviews I see with these people.
"repeatedly shrug his shoulders and dissemble"
I was going to say this reads very much like an interview with Trump himself, but you said it for me.
posted by longdaysjourney at 9:44 AM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
"repeatedly shrug his shoulders and dissemble"
I was going to say this reads very much like an interview with Trump himself, but you said it for me.
posted by longdaysjourney at 9:44 AM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
BEE: Pay attention to me!
Zeitgeist: No. Done with you a long time ago.
BEE: *drops pants* Pay attention!
Zeitgeist: Yeah, still no.
posted by gwint at 9:45 AM on April 11, 2019 [26 favorites]
Zeitgeist: No. Done with you a long time ago.
BEE: *drops pants* Pay attention!
Zeitgeist: Yeah, still no.
posted by gwint at 9:45 AM on April 11, 2019 [26 favorites]
I'm going to remove this from my activity, because ugh, the article was enough, but MAN, this "I'm the one rational arbiter of reality and everyone I disagree with is just being emotional" shtick is TIRED AS FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
posted by duffell at 9:46 AM on April 11, 2019 [27 favorites]
posted by duffell at 9:46 AM on April 11, 2019 [27 favorites]
Just seconding how very worth reading Andrea Long Chu's review of White is (for that matter, anything she writes is extremely worth reading)
posted by Aubergine at 9:48 AM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by Aubergine at 9:48 AM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
When somebody says, "I am not that political" they're actually saying, "I don't want to be held accountable for my political beliefs."
posted by peeedro at 9:48 AM on April 11, 2019 [149 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 9:48 AM on April 11, 2019 [149 favorites]
(yeah I definitely get that need, duffell.)
also I appreciate those throwing excerpts in here because when I was trying to select one for the FPP I just kept falling on trying to copy-paste virtually the entire interview
Chotiner's real strength here I think is the confidence and quickness with which he can source, cross-reference, and sanity-check Ellis's meandering nonsense. it totally rips apart his defense mechanisms and leaves him notably vulnerable and dull most of the time.
however I think it only really works as well as it does here because Ellis styles himself as an old-world intellectual which forces him not to perseverate to the extent you'd likely get from a more outwardly (and indifferently) stupid or dishonest man like, I dunno, Alex Jones or Milo or Ben Shapiro or whatever else
that to say I appreciate this as much for its unlikeliness as anything else -- my experience in the past few years is that most guys in this situation just barrel ahead and leave the interviewer largely unable to make a dent in their armor
posted by Kybard at 9:50 AM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
also I appreciate those throwing excerpts in here because when I was trying to select one for the FPP I just kept falling on trying to copy-paste virtually the entire interview
Chotiner's real strength here I think is the confidence and quickness with which he can source, cross-reference, and sanity-check Ellis's meandering nonsense. it totally rips apart his defense mechanisms and leaves him notably vulnerable and dull most of the time.
however I think it only really works as well as it does here because Ellis styles himself as an old-world intellectual which forces him not to perseverate to the extent you'd likely get from a more outwardly (and indifferently) stupid or dishonest man like, I dunno, Alex Jones or Milo or Ben Shapiro or whatever else
that to say I appreciate this as much for its unlikeliness as anything else -- my experience in the past few years is that most guys in this situation just barrel ahead and leave the interviewer largely unable to make a dent in their armor
posted by Kybard at 9:50 AM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
Him turning into an old grumpy and indifferent asshole just shows how shallow his work and thinking always was.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 9:50 AM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 9:50 AM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
You know, I think “sets me off” suggests that I am enraged, and I think the voice in the book is pretty chill and neutral.
So he is not mad, but laughing, actually. I got it.
Sometimes people who are fantastic at capturing the Zeitgeist are that way not because they are particularly intelligent or versatile people, but because they are such a part of it that their talent for observation managed to capture them and their social circles in amber. Things rarely go well for them when everyone has died or blown away. But Ellis seems to be comfortable, and has nothing to fear from Trump, so he is doing just fine, however not-mad he may be.
I hate seeing him talk about his millennial Democratic partner as his bona fides for being a mild, reasonable person. People in intimate relationships put up with layers of shit for their own reasons, some of which are very bad indeed, and all that kind of tactic makes me do is to feel horror and pity for the loved one in question.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:50 AM on April 11, 2019 [18 favorites]
So he is not mad, but laughing, actually. I got it.
Sometimes people who are fantastic at capturing the Zeitgeist are that way not because they are particularly intelligent or versatile people, but because they are such a part of it that their talent for observation managed to capture them and their social circles in amber. Things rarely go well for them when everyone has died or blown away. But Ellis seems to be comfortable, and has nothing to fear from Trump, so he is doing just fine, however not-mad he may be.
I hate seeing him talk about his millennial Democratic partner as his bona fides for being a mild, reasonable person. People in intimate relationships put up with layers of shit for their own reasons, some of which are very bad indeed, and all that kind of tactic makes me do is to feel horror and pity for the loved one in question.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:50 AM on April 11, 2019 [18 favorites]
Heh
I love an interview in which the interviewer is well-prepared, able to synthesize what the subject is saying rapidly, and able to hold them to account for their opinions
A benefit of it is that it makes it really apparent when the subject is a dumbfuck
posted by entropone at 9:51 AM on April 11, 2019 [39 favorites]
I love an interview in which the interviewer is well-prepared, able to synthesize what the subject is saying rapidly, and able to hold them to account for their opinions
A benefit of it is that it makes it really apparent when the subject is a dumbfuck
posted by entropone at 9:51 AM on April 11, 2019 [39 favorites]
An empty light socket in human form.
posted by Drastic at 9:51 AM on April 11, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by Drastic at 9:51 AM on April 11, 2019 [13 favorites]
BEE: .... Now, look, I live with a Democratic, socialist-bordering-on-communist millennial. I hear it every day.
IC: He’s a character in the book.
BEE: He is in the next room right now. And I do put myself in his shoes, and I do look at the world through his lens, because I have to. I live with him, and I love him. And I do hear this, and some of it changes my mind, and some of it doesn’t. I am certainly much more of a centrist than he is. I do listen, and I think that [lack of a] sense of neutrality—of standing in the other side’s shoes and looking at this from the other side—has bothered me among a lot of my friends and from the media.
IC: What would looking at some of the issues that we have been facing from the perspective of Trump voters look like in practice?
BEE: I don’t know. I am not that interested in politics. I am not that interested in policy. What I was interested in was the coverage....
In other words...
BEE: The left/media doesn't put itself in the shoes of Trump supporters and look at the situation from the other side!
IC: What would that look like in practice?
BEE: I don't know. I'm not interested in politics or policy. I just like bitching about the coverage of it, because it makes me feel superior to criticize other people for not doing things I don't do myself.
posted by orange swan at 9:52 AM on April 11, 2019 [12 favorites]
IC: He’s a character in the book.
BEE: He is in the next room right now. And I do put myself in his shoes, and I do look at the world through his lens, because I have to. I live with him, and I love him. And I do hear this, and some of it changes my mind, and some of it doesn’t. I am certainly much more of a centrist than he is. I do listen, and I think that [lack of a] sense of neutrality—of standing in the other side’s shoes and looking at this from the other side—has bothered me among a lot of my friends and from the media.
IC: What would looking at some of the issues that we have been facing from the perspective of Trump voters look like in practice?
BEE: I don’t know. I am not that interested in politics. I am not that interested in policy. What I was interested in was the coverage....
In other words...
BEE: The left/media doesn't put itself in the shoes of Trump supporters and look at the situation from the other side!
IC: What would that look like in practice?
BEE: I don't know. I'm not interested in politics or policy. I just like bitching about the coverage of it, because it makes me feel superior to criticize other people for not doing things I don't do myself.
posted by orange swan at 9:52 AM on April 11, 2019 [12 favorites]
Why is the New Yorker interviewing him? Hasn't it been something like thirty years since Brett Easton Ellis was relevant?
posted by JamesBay at 9:54 AM on April 11, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by JamesBay at 9:54 AM on April 11, 2019 [15 favorites]
I think Mary Harron (director of "American Psycho") has a lot more to do with the idea that the novel was to be seen as satire than it was originally perceived to be. Back when I got the book in my obsessive collecting of Vintage Contemporaries, I remember wondering if BEE was trying to skewer corporate, soulless culture or wanted to become it, with some nasty sexist revenge fantasy thrown in.
This interview, and a lot of the things I've read about him since, makes me think he didn't really have a point of view for any of his books, but that he is just kind of dumb and somehow good at making people mad at him.
posted by xingcat at 9:54 AM on April 11, 2019 [18 favorites]
This interview, and a lot of the things I've read about him since, makes me think he didn't really have a point of view for any of his books, but that he is just kind of dumb and somehow good at making people mad at him.
posted by xingcat at 9:54 AM on April 11, 2019 [18 favorites]
Bret, it turns out people are overvaluing your thoughts and opinions. This was a grave mistake and I think everyone recognizes that and will not repeat it. You can go back to whatever rock you live under, rest in peace you regressive moron.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:54 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:54 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
I'm beginning to think that a "centrist" is someone who believes that "politics" and "policy" is something that happens to other people.
posted by gwint at 9:55 AM on April 11, 2019 [83 favorites]
posted by gwint at 9:55 AM on April 11, 2019 [83 favorites]
Why is the New Yorker interviewing him?
Ellis just published a memoir titled White.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
Ellis just published a memoir titled White.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
Anyone who says "I don't pay attention to politics" or "Politics are ridiculous" or "I'm not interested in policy" or anything along those lines is someone who is confident that they will not suffer any negative repercussions from currently unfolding events and doesn't give a shit about anyone who is or might. Moreover, they probably get annoyed by even being asked to pay attention, much less to give a shit. I don't know if this qualifies a person as a sociopath, but in this case it's a distinction without a difference in terms of the end results.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2019 [70 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2019 [70 favorites]
Oh, this guy has a point of view. His point of view is that women are not people and that they should be subjected to repeated acts of unspeakable heinous violence. In fact, he seems to think that anyone who isn't him isn't a person, but especially not women. Fucking sociopath. It is so upsetting that this guy still gets a microphone. At least he doesn't seem to have anything to say this time around.
posted by sockermom at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by sockermom at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2019 [12 favorites]
I'm not going to give money or attention to BEE. There was a time in the past where his shenanigans drew my attention but I'm just exhausted by it now and he's not worth investing in.
That being said, I do appreciate all the hate this interview, his book, his views, his politics are garnering from around the web. I'm just luxuriating in that because he's such a troll and it's so enjoyable to watch him squirm.
posted by Fizz at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
That being said, I do appreciate all the hate this interview, his book, his views, his politics are garnering from around the web. I'm just luxuriating in that because he's such a troll and it's so enjoyable to watch him squirm.
posted by Fizz at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
Oh, but this interview is a laugh riot.
IC: Do you understand what I am asking here? You were saying that everyone was saying sexual assault is reprehensible, and also that people don’t care about bragging over sexual assault.
BEE: Surprised Pikachu face.
IC: It seems like you want to give some people the benefit of the doubt, but not others. Would that be fair?
BEE: I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:59 AM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
IC: Do you understand what I am asking here? You were saying that everyone was saying sexual assault is reprehensible, and also that people don’t care about bragging over sexual assault.
BEE: Surprised Pikachu face.
IC: It seems like you want to give some people the benefit of the doubt, but not others. Would that be fair?
BEE: I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:59 AM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
In Millenial terminology this is what we call an "edgelord." Seriously, I'd love to be snarky but I'm just sad. I feel sad when I see older gay men talk like this-- I wonder at what point did the trauma of living in the closet and witnessing the AIDS crisis destroy their sense of humanity and empathy.
posted by coffeeand at 9:59 AM on April 11, 2019 [35 favorites]
posted by coffeeand at 9:59 AM on April 11, 2019 [35 favorites]
Oh my god, I knew the name sounded familiar, I didn't realize it was the American Psycho book writer. Well, it's not a surprise he turns out to be a shitty person himself.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:01 AM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:01 AM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
BEE: Pay attention to me!
Zeitgeist: No. Done with you a long time ago.
BEE: *drops pants* Pay attention!
Zeitgeist: Yeah, still no.
posted by gwint
This is essentially why I got really snippy about this interview on Twitter. I understand that the new memoir is a natural news hook, I guess, and it's great that Chotiner gave him enough rope to hang himself. But lots of other people publish books that don't get high-profile coverage in the New Yorker, and it was always the easiest option just to cover something else, anything else. Ultimately, what Ellis wants is attention, and the NYer is giving it to him.
Along the same lines, Chotiner's been hyped as this journalistic superweapon for his interview technique. In this case, the superweapon was deployed to confirm a thing that's been bone obvious for a long time to anyone who cared.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 10:04 AM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
Zeitgeist: No. Done with you a long time ago.
BEE: *drops pants* Pay attention!
Zeitgeist: Yeah, still no.
posted by gwint
This is essentially why I got really snippy about this interview on Twitter. I understand that the new memoir is a natural news hook, I guess, and it's great that Chotiner gave him enough rope to hang himself. But lots of other people publish books that don't get high-profile coverage in the New Yorker, and it was always the easiest option just to cover something else, anything else. Ultimately, what Ellis wants is attention, and the NYer is giving it to him.
Along the same lines, Chotiner's been hyped as this journalistic superweapon for his interview technique. In this case, the superweapon was deployed to confirm a thing that's been bone obvious for a long time to anyone who cared.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 10:04 AM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
Lets hope his boyfriend is a double agent slowly draining his bank account to bankroll liberation movements
posted by The Whelk at 10:04 AM on April 11, 2019 [58 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 10:04 AM on April 11, 2019 [58 favorites]
Jesus, I was ready to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the interview got worse and worse. And the end really just sums it up:
It’s interesting to have that back-and-forth pull in an interview. The only problem, however, is that I am not that political, and so, when we have this conversation, and you confront me with certain things like this, I really am, I have to say, at a loss.
Then why the fuck did you write this book? The answer is practically staring me right in the face: because he's a lazy fuck who needs to make money, so he just copy-pasted a collection of worthless blog posts. He doesn't actually give a shit about any of this. What an empty soul.
Here's how I know this:
There seems to have been this hysterical overreaction that can be solved with voting him out of office.
Basically, the guy thinks that political activity for non-politicians begins and ends at voting for president. That's cosmically ignorant and indifferent - I was going to say "comically," but there's nothing funny about this.
posted by Edgewise at 10:05 AM on April 11, 2019 [13 favorites]
It’s interesting to have that back-and-forth pull in an interview. The only problem, however, is that I am not that political, and so, when we have this conversation, and you confront me with certain things like this, I really am, I have to say, at a loss.
Then why the fuck did you write this book? The answer is practically staring me right in the face: because he's a lazy fuck who needs to make money, so he just copy-pasted a collection of worthless blog posts. He doesn't actually give a shit about any of this. What an empty soul.
Here's how I know this:
There seems to have been this hysterical overreaction that can be solved with voting him out of office.
Basically, the guy thinks that political activity for non-politicians begins and ends at voting for president. That's cosmically ignorant and indifferent - I was going to say "comically," but there's nothing funny about this.
posted by Edgewise at 10:05 AM on April 11, 2019 [13 favorites]
Ellis just published a memoir titled White.
I could publish my memoir, too, but no one would put me in the New Yorker.
Honestly, that anyone is still giving this exhausted excuse for an edgelord any space at all firmly gives the lie to any claim that we have a meritocracy.
posted by praemunire at 10:07 AM on April 11, 2019 [8 favorites]
I could publish my memoir, too, but no one would put me in the New Yorker.
Honestly, that anyone is still giving this exhausted excuse for an edgelord any space at all firmly gives the lie to any claim that we have a meritocracy.
posted by praemunire at 10:07 AM on April 11, 2019 [8 favorites]
orange swan thanks for your comment, I was going to skip this because ugh trump defender, but man! BEE got ripped to shreds. Hilarious!
posted by Grither at 10:08 AM on April 11, 2019
posted by Grither at 10:08 AM on April 11, 2019
Interviewer: That’s not true, but O.K.
Idiot: Well, whatever.
I'm done.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:13 AM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
Idiot: Well, whatever.
I'm done.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:13 AM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
Read this hysterical twitter thread of journalists who are scared to talk to Isaac Chotiner.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:13 AM on April 11, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 10:13 AM on April 11, 2019 [16 favorites]
The thesis of White is that American culture has entered a period of steep, perhaps irreversible decline, and social media and millennials are to blame. (From Chu's review)
We could call this the Catonic fallacy, that the youth are ever more corrupt than their elders. It's rather the definition of sceleric conservative thought, no?
Puts me in mind of the old SFauthor trope of the Mindeater. Yep, conservatism has fully consumed his soul.
posted by bonehead at 10:16 AM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
We could call this the Catonic fallacy, that the youth are ever more corrupt than their elders. It's rather the definition of sceleric conservative thought, no?
Puts me in mind of the old SFauthor trope of the Mindeater. Yep, conservatism has fully consumed his soul.
posted by bonehead at 10:16 AM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
i've been thinking about the article by bee i saw earlier this week when randomly scrolling through the news app. in the new york post, no less (took a minute to suppress my gag reflex enough to click the link.) defending kanye west as a genius that dumdum liberals just didn't get, man. actually i didn't make it through the whole article, i stopped in the second paragraph since it was clear that he was going to justify kanye's "trolling" because he was super best buddies with him. there are reasons to defend west if you want to look for them, but i wasn't convinced this starfucking ad hominem wheeze in a red meat rag was going to delve into race relations and the fragility of white identity in a really meaningful way.
but it DID make me wonder how long it's been since bee dropped his "i'm just totally disaffected and numb" routine and actually revealed himself as a dedicated reactionary. as always, i'm fascinated by people as clever as he is (that's what his writing is, clever) going down such miserable and well-worn paths. this post sheds some light, and is another reminder that the gravity of reactionaryism is alarmingly powerful, although as other posters have noted, he never seemed to value women as actual whole people in his work, which indicates that he was probably always a huge piece of shit. ah well. he can burn in hell, i suppose.
posted by rotten at 10:16 AM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
but it DID make me wonder how long it's been since bee dropped his "i'm just totally disaffected and numb" routine and actually revealed himself as a dedicated reactionary. as always, i'm fascinated by people as clever as he is (that's what his writing is, clever) going down such miserable and well-worn paths. this post sheds some light, and is another reminder that the gravity of reactionaryism is alarmingly powerful, although as other posters have noted, he never seemed to value women as actual whole people in his work, which indicates that he was probably always a huge piece of shit. ah well. he can burn in hell, i suppose.
posted by rotten at 10:16 AM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
Chotiner has that sixth sense where he can hear a sentence coming out of a person’s mouth and just know the exact fear or weakness they’re trying to use words and argument and bullshit to cover up. And the ability to throw aside social awkwardness and run toward the weak point. The only person as good or better at this is Janet Malcolm. Agree to an interview with either of them and be prepared to learn things about yourself you never knew!
posted by sallybrown at 10:22 AM on April 11, 2019 [14 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 10:22 AM on April 11, 2019 [14 favorites]
We could call this the Catonic fallacy, that the youth are ever more corrupt than their elders. It's rather the definition of sceleric conservative thought, no?
What’s the line? Rich people become more conservative as they age cause poor people just die earlier?
The sheer amount of (usually white, always well off) gay men who are willing to cuddle up with reactionary neofascism has made me extremely wary of treating them as natural allies despite ..you know ...being one.
posted by The Whelk at 10:22 AM on April 11, 2019 [36 favorites]
What’s the line? Rich people become more conservative as they age cause poor people just die earlier?
The sheer amount of (usually white, always well off) gay men who are willing to cuddle up with reactionary neofascism has made me extremely wary of treating them as natural allies despite ..you know ...being one.
posted by The Whelk at 10:22 AM on April 11, 2019 [36 favorites]
That was disappointing... I dunno what I was expecting but I wanted there to be some substance to this interview, because I am actually curious about the Trumpland worldview and what it would look like to defend Trumpland supporters in a substantive, intellectual way **without** sharing their worldview.
Because, Bret Easton Ellis has these characters in his fiction that have odious worldviews, but he writes about them in an observational way without necessarily endorsing. So, maybe there would be some insight there, you know?
But, I don't know if it was the style of the interview or the fact that BEE actually **doesn't** have any substance to his views whatsoever, but there's nothing of value here. Telling people that you don't care so they shouldn't either is not an argument. Maybe he was going to say something anecdotal about the two women he knows who supported Trump, but the interviewer didn't let him get away with it - and besides there's nothing intellectual there, either.
Possibly you could make a real argument about the media echo chamber and how it aims to rile and whether that's productive - or in a more nuanced way, when it's productive and when it isn't - but this ain't it.
posted by subdee at 10:26 AM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
Because, Bret Easton Ellis has these characters in his fiction that have odious worldviews, but he writes about them in an observational way without necessarily endorsing. So, maybe there would be some insight there, you know?
But, I don't know if it was the style of the interview or the fact that BEE actually **doesn't** have any substance to his views whatsoever, but there's nothing of value here. Telling people that you don't care so they shouldn't either is not an argument. Maybe he was going to say something anecdotal about the two women he knows who supported Trump, but the interviewer didn't let him get away with it - and besides there's nothing intellectual there, either.
Possibly you could make a real argument about the media echo chamber and how it aims to rile and whether that's productive - or in a more nuanced way, when it's productive and when it isn't - but this ain't it.
posted by subdee at 10:26 AM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
Chotiner has that sixth sense where he can hear a sentence coming out of a person’s mouth and just know the exact fear or weakness they’re trying to use words and argument and bullshit to cover up. And the ability to throw aside social awkwardness and run toward the weak point.
I think you might enjoy Soft Focus With Jena Friedman on Adult Swim.
posted by Evstar at 10:36 AM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
I think you might enjoy Soft Focus With Jena Friedman on Adult Swim.
posted by Evstar at 10:36 AM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
The quintessential moment in this interview is when the interviewer says "In an interview with the T.L.S., you said..." and then reads Ellis some quotes from himself, and Ellis can't stop himself and interrupts the interviewer to say "Agreed. Agreed."
posted by koeselitz at 10:41 AM on April 11, 2019 [32 favorites]
posted by koeselitz at 10:41 AM on April 11, 2019 [32 favorites]
it DID make me wonder how long it's been since bee dropped his "i'm just totally disaffected and numb" routine
" ... one cannot read White as anything but a book about being rich and bored," Long Chu writes in her review and what's hillarable about Chotiner's interview is how Ellis sounds barely awake enough to even try to have a coherently articulated belief, good or bad.
Bret Easton Ellis—wants to write an American À rebours if he weren't so fucking bored!
posted by octobersurprise at 10:43 AM on April 11, 2019
" ... one cannot read White as anything but a book about being rich and bored," Long Chu writes in her review and what's hillarable about Chotiner's interview is how Ellis sounds barely awake enough to even try to have a coherently articulated belief, good or bad.
Bret Easton Ellis—wants to write an American À rebours if he weren't so fucking bored!
posted by octobersurprise at 10:43 AM on April 11, 2019
Chotiner has that sixth sense where he can hear a sentence coming out of a person’s mouth and just know the exact fear or weakness they’re trying to use words and argument and bullshit to cover up. And the ability to throw aside social awkwardness and run toward the weak point.
I'd be afraid to state in front of Isaac Chotiner that I have toast with butter and jam and a glass of milk for breakfast several mornings a week because he'd probably back me into a verbal corner within two or three exchanges until I was forced to admit that I actually had cake and milk for breakfast this morning because there was some leftover maple apple cake in the fridge and I woke up really early this morning and couldn't get back to sleep and got upset about some things and my defenses were down, okay? And no it's not the healthiest choice and yes, maybe I should disclose this kind of thing when I give meal planning advice on AskMe. Are you happy now, Isaac? Fine. Fuck.
posted by orange swan at 10:47 AM on April 11, 2019 [35 favorites]
I'd be afraid to state in front of Isaac Chotiner that I have toast with butter and jam and a glass of milk for breakfast several mornings a week because he'd probably back me into a verbal corner within two or three exchanges until I was forced to admit that I actually had cake and milk for breakfast this morning because there was some leftover maple apple cake in the fridge and I woke up really early this morning and couldn't get back to sleep and got upset about some things and my defenses were down, okay? And no it's not the healthiest choice and yes, maybe I should disclose this kind of thing when I give meal planning advice on AskMe. Are you happy now, Isaac? Fine. Fuck.
posted by orange swan at 10:47 AM on April 11, 2019 [35 favorites]
Orange swan, that's when you take a note from BEE and just stammer "I don't care about that, IDK lol" at the first sign of him questioning your first answer.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:50 AM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:50 AM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
You could just cut and paste "whatever" as a replacement for each of BEE's responses and the interview would have the same effect. And the same affect.
posted by kozad at 10:51 AM on April 11, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by kozad at 10:51 AM on April 11, 2019 [11 favorites]
Jesus, what a comically bad interview. I mean, Chortiner was good and it was darkly humorous to read but, wow, is BEE ever awful and surprisingly vapid for someone who makes a living writing.
posted by asnider at 10:52 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by asnider at 10:52 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
What's most surprising?:
1. That an author could leverage having great coke hoo-ups in the 80's into a still-marginally-relevant career in the 2010s?
2. That "Bret Easton Ellis is a tiresome asshole with nothing to say" is still somehow news?
3. That people still agree to be interviewed by Isaac Chotiner?
(Not a criticism against Chotiner)
posted by Navelgazer at 10:57 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
1. That an author could leverage having great coke hoo-ups in the 80's into a still-marginally-relevant career in the 2010s?
2. That "Bret Easton Ellis is a tiresome asshole with nothing to say" is still somehow news?
3. That people still agree to be interviewed by Isaac Chotiner?
(Not a criticism against Chotiner)
posted by Navelgazer at 10:57 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
Honestly, bless Chotiner. Literally every person I find infuriating in other contexts is a delightful read when it comes to to a Chotiner interview. I don't know if this is the sort of thing Remnick fancied he'd get by inviting Steve Bannon to that New Yorker forum last year, but doing a print interview where you are holding all the cards is clearly very different (in that you can force your interviewee to answer your questions instead of letting him change the subject). Super enjoyable!
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:58 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:58 AM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
I love when famous guys think it's really interesting that they don't find something interesting.
posted by Beardman at 11:12 AM on April 11, 2019 [19 favorites]
posted by Beardman at 11:12 AM on April 11, 2019 [19 favorites]
I have never read an interview by Isaac Chotiner before, but I see I have a lot of catching up to do.
I work with a couple of self-styled "free speech champions/truth-tellers" who, if interviewed about the things they have said about feminism and POC, would look just as stupid as Bret Easton Ellis does here. I wish Isaac Chotiner would follow them around all day and calmly and methodically pick apart all their stupid claims so everyone could see how shallow and malicious they really are.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:16 AM on April 11, 2019 [11 favorites]
I work with a couple of self-styled "free speech champions/truth-tellers" who, if interviewed about the things they have said about feminism and POC, would look just as stupid as Bret Easton Ellis does here. I wish Isaac Chotiner would follow them around all day and calmly and methodically pick apart all their stupid claims so everyone could see how shallow and malicious they really are.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:16 AM on April 11, 2019 [11 favorites]
Yet another comfortably wealthy guy decides that since he's doing ok everything else must be, and the biggest problem is those obnoxious people who give a shit.
He's like the living embodiment of MLK's white moderate, and the fact that he's gay just underscores how anyone who gets too comfortable can fall into that sort of thinking.
If I understand his position it basically boils down to: Trump won so he should get to do anything he wants, the only acceptable means of objecting to Trump is to vote him out in 2020 and until then everyone should just STFU and stop inconveniencing him by existing while having an opinion about something he can afford not to care about.
posted by sotonohito at 11:18 AM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
He's like the living embodiment of MLK's white moderate, and the fact that he's gay just underscores how anyone who gets too comfortable can fall into that sort of thinking.
If I understand his position it basically boils down to: Trump won so he should get to do anything he wants, the only acceptable means of objecting to Trump is to vote him out in 2020 and until then everyone should just STFU and stop inconveniencing him by existing while having an opinion about something he can afford not to care about.
posted by sotonohito at 11:18 AM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
I feel like everyone talking about BEE is kinda missing the point of the link which, for me, is that Isaac Chotiner is a good interviewer and everybody else doing interviews should take notes.
Unless your point is that if Chotiner is so great why is he wasting his time interviewing BEE? Which, okay fair.
posted by straight at 11:24 AM on April 11, 2019 [12 favorites]
Unless your point is that if Chotiner is so great why is he wasting his time interviewing BEE? Which, okay fair.
posted by straight at 11:24 AM on April 11, 2019 [12 favorites]
Hasn't this guy always been an asshole and clearly nothing has changed? Why are we bothering with him?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:29 AM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:29 AM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
I feel like everyone talking about BEE is kinda missing the point of the link which, for me, is that Isaac Chotiner is a good interviewer and everybody else doing interviews should take notes.
yeah I mean I have no problem with people shitting on BEE because fuck that guy, but the main thing that got me to post this was the thought "holy shit Chotiner rips him to pieces without even breaking a sweat, this is so good"
and yes, BEE is basically self-evidently banal and worthless at this point, but this interview is an absolute master class in getting someone like that to verbally drop their pants, willingly, in public. it's a rare and satisfying kind of gem almost irrespective of the target
(side-note: if you think "everyone" already knows that BEE sucks, you're wrong, though I can only say that with certainty because most people I know, if I described him to them, would say "oh, yeah, american psycho was a good movie" and would have no other thought or opinion)
posted by Kybard at 11:36 AM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
yeah I mean I have no problem with people shitting on BEE because fuck that guy, but the main thing that got me to post this was the thought "holy shit Chotiner rips him to pieces without even breaking a sweat, this is so good"
and yes, BEE is basically self-evidently banal and worthless at this point, but this interview is an absolute master class in getting someone like that to verbally drop their pants, willingly, in public. it's a rare and satisfying kind of gem almost irrespective of the target
(side-note: if you think "everyone" already knows that BEE sucks, you're wrong, though I can only say that with certainty because most people I know, if I described him to them, would say "oh, yeah, american psycho was a good movie" and would have no other thought or opinion)
posted by Kybard at 11:36 AM on April 11, 2019 [6 favorites]
"He was elected fairly and legally."
Well... *wavyhand*
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:46 AM on April 11, 2019 [22 favorites]
Well... *wavyhand*
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:46 AM on April 11, 2019 [22 favorites]
side-note: if you think "everyone" already knows that BEE sucks, you're wrong, though I can only say that with certainty because most people I know, if I described him to them, would say "oh, yeah, american psycho was a good movie" and would have no other thought or opinion)
I think that's ok. Best that he's known as the guy that wrote the book that influenced the movie and that's it.
I don't think we need more people to know more than that. Let him fade away into a trivia answer and close the door.
Also, only the first 20 minutes of that movie are worth watching; you know before he actually starts murdering people. The whole, actual psycho angle makes the movie far less interesting.
Isaac Chotiner is great when he's sticking it to people but boy do I hate it when he interviews friends. Too much glad handing and forced jocularity when I just want him to tear into people.
posted by Telf at 11:54 AM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think that's ok. Best that he's known as the guy that wrote the book that influenced the movie and that's it.
I don't think we need more people to know more than that. Let him fade away into a trivia answer and close the door.
Also, only the first 20 minutes of that movie are worth watching; you know before he actually starts murdering people. The whole, actual psycho angle makes the movie far less interesting.
Isaac Chotiner is great when he's sticking it to people but boy do I hate it when he interviews friends. Too much glad handing and forced jocularity when I just want him to tear into people.
posted by Telf at 11:54 AM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
Trump is obviously terrible. A lot of money is being made from the left's fear and anxiety. These are not mutually exclusive.
posted by mecran01 at 12:07 PM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by mecran01 at 12:07 PM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
Chotiner is very good at what he does but he doesn't strike me as so special that any reasonably intelligent journalist couldn't learn to ask the same type of questions .
It's great whenever he exposes the vapidity at the core of many public figures but at this point I feel like we should be asking why more people don't do this.
I mean, I know why this isn't done more often but I still think we should have a conversation about it
posted by mcmile at 12:21 PM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
It's great whenever he exposes the vapidity at the core of many public figures but at this point I feel like we should be asking why more people don't do this.
I mean, I know why this isn't done more often but I still think we should have a conversation about it
posted by mcmile at 12:21 PM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
I love Isaac Chotiner. I wish his podcast I Have To Ask was still active.
posted by cj_ at 12:25 PM on April 11, 2019
posted by cj_ at 12:25 PM on April 11, 2019
I feel like I can get better political commentary by going down to the local vape shop and asking Brad for his thoughts on current events.
posted by Grandysaur at 12:26 PM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Grandysaur at 12:26 PM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
In the spirit of the New Yorker, "Christ, what an asshole."
posted by Keith Talent at 12:28 PM on April 11, 2019 [21 favorites]
posted by Keith Talent at 12:28 PM on April 11, 2019 [21 favorites]
There is a rich tradition of the artist as provocateur, but... this is not that.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:31 PM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:31 PM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
"I think politics are ridiculous" is another way of saying, "Fuck you, got mine," isn't it?
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 12:32 PM on April 11, 2019 [31 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 12:32 PM on April 11, 2019 [31 favorites]
Chotiner is very good at what he does but he doesn't strike me as so special that any reasonably intelligent journalist couldn't learn to ask the same type of questions .
Yeah, that's the point. Lots of other journalists could easily do this if only they would.
posted by straight at 1:28 PM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that's the point. Lots of other journalists could easily do this if only they would.
posted by straight at 1:28 PM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
Trump is obviously terrible. A lot of money is being made from the left's fear and anxiety. These are not mutually exclusive.
Really? I mean, yeah, sure some money is, but it seems to me that way more money is being made by being hurtful and skirting tax laws and agreed-upon moral business practices that aren't explicitly illegal.
I mean unless you mean "being hurtful and skirting tax laws" part as of the "left's fear and anxiety", then hey, agree to disagree.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:37 PM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
Really? I mean, yeah, sure some money is, but it seems to me that way more money is being made by being hurtful and skirting tax laws and agreed-upon moral business practices that aren't explicitly illegal.
I mean unless you mean "being hurtful and skirting tax laws" part as of the "left's fear and anxiety", then hey, agree to disagree.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:37 PM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
In Millenial terminology this is what we call an "edgelord."
Every time I read one of these 'edgelord turns out to be actual asshole' stories I think of Wile E. Coyote.
posted by srboisvert at 1:46 PM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
Every time I read one of these 'edgelord turns out to be actual asshole' stories I think of Wile E. Coyote.
posted by srboisvert at 1:46 PM on April 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
I mean, I know why this isn't done more often but I still think we should have a conversation about it
My theory or conjecture or whatever is that class sticks with class and by the time you’re getting the big one on one feature interview as a journalist you’re probably friends or friends-of-friends with the interviewee (or if not your boss/editor/whatever definitely is) and don’t want to rock the boat too much or they’ll stop inviting you to parties. Chotiner isn’t discovering some new form of journalism, he’s just one of the few with the guts to do it. And it probably helps that probably no one really cares if you piss off Bret Easton Ellis considering he’s made his late career on being a dick.
posted by griphus at 1:50 PM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
My theory or conjecture or whatever is that class sticks with class and by the time you’re getting the big one on one feature interview as a journalist you’re probably friends or friends-of-friends with the interviewee (or if not your boss/editor/whatever definitely is) and don’t want to rock the boat too much or they’ll stop inviting you to parties. Chotiner isn’t discovering some new form of journalism, he’s just one of the few with the guts to do it. And it probably helps that probably no one really cares if you piss off Bret Easton Ellis considering he’s made his late career on being a dick.
posted by griphus at 1:50 PM on April 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
Sometimes I think we deserved the 2008 financial crisis because of our collective misreading of American Psycho.
posted by chavenet at 1:51 PM on April 11, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 1:51 PM on April 11, 2019 [8 favorites]
Bret Easton Ellis is vile. He is is a social climber, or aspires to be. American Psycho was so disgusting and violent that many booksellers declined to order it, myself included (though willing to execute a special order, back before Amazon). He has some writing talent, and uses it in abhorrent ways. The New Yorker should be over him. I am.
posted by theora55 at 1:51 PM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 1:51 PM on April 11, 2019 [4 favorites]
Lets hope his boyfriend is a double agent slowly draining his bank account to bankroll liberation movements
do we think bret easton ellis’ “millennial socialist” boyfriend is as breathtakingly stupid as him or just in it for the cokeposted by octobersurprise at 1:56 PM on April 11, 2019 [14 favorites]
— E. Alex Jung @e_alexjung - 9:56 AM - 11 Apr 2019
En route to work I started on something to amuse myself because I'm in a stank-ass mood, and my brain was all, "Think about Trump hearing something about this and becoming a rabid BEE fan" and because my commute is long, this little cute scenario had become this horrible thing wherein Trump is listening to an audiobook of American Psycho, thinking to himself, man, I'd totally do that with a decapitated head if I could and I bet people would still vote for me and now I feel all wrong and sad inside.
posted by angrycat at 2:10 PM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 2:10 PM on April 11, 2019 [3 favorites]
The sheer amount of (usually white, always well off) gay men who are willing to cuddle up with reactionary neofascism
Plenty of (usually white) gay men whose main problem with the patriarchy is that they think they should be patriarchs. If they get enough money, they can pretend to themselves that they are and that, for example, the vice president of the United States would not be perfectly happy to throw them into reeducation camps.
I'm reading Derek Jarman's memoirs right now and it's reminded me that not wanting to sleep with women can really expose a man's character. It's not that he's awfully misogynistic, per se, it's that women barely even seem to have existed in his world, since he wasn't sexually interested in them.
posted by praemunire at 2:14 PM on April 11, 2019 [26 favorites]
Plenty of (usually white) gay men whose main problem with the patriarchy is that they think they should be patriarchs. If they get enough money, they can pretend to themselves that they are and that, for example, the vice president of the United States would not be perfectly happy to throw them into reeducation camps.
I'm reading Derek Jarman's memoirs right now and it's reminded me that not wanting to sleep with women can really expose a man's character. It's not that he's awfully misogynistic, per se, it's that women barely even seem to have existed in his world, since he wasn't sexually interested in them.
posted by praemunire at 2:14 PM on April 11, 2019 [26 favorites]
Ellis seems like the perfect summary of the South Park worldview: I don’t care, and I resent that you care.
posted by cricketcello at 4:15 PM on April 11, 2019 [24 favorites]
posted by cricketcello at 4:15 PM on April 11, 2019 [24 favorites]
OMG, this man is completely vapid. The whole interview reads like the interviewee is an absurdity-generating algorithm, but when I got to this part, I kind of started worry that he feel on his head or something just before the interview:
So when she tweets about Valerie Jarrett being the child of the Muslim Brotherhood and the “Planet of the Apes”?
Yeah, that’s a tweet. I don’t know. It’s whatever. It’s whatever you think it is and whatever she says she meant by it. It is her word against ours.
posted by doggod at 4:24 PM on April 11, 2019
So when she tweets about Valerie Jarrett being the child of the Muslim Brotherhood and the “Planet of the Apes”?
Yeah, that’s a tweet. I don’t know. It’s whatever. It’s whatever you think it is and whatever she says she meant by it. It is her word against ours.
posted by doggod at 4:24 PM on April 11, 2019
Ellis seems like the perfect summary of the South Park worldview: I don’t care, and I resent that you care.
The dark-side gen x mindset tbh
posted by The Whelk at 4:31 PM on April 11, 2019 [15 favorites]
The dark-side gen x mindset tbh
posted by The Whelk at 4:31 PM on April 11, 2019 [15 favorites]
Ellis, like Rand, is an author you should outgrow.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:37 PM on April 11, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:37 PM on April 11, 2019 [12 favorites]
Bret Easton Ellis is vile. He is is a social climber, or aspires to be. American Psycho was so disgusting and violent that many booksellers declined to order it, myself included
Well, he’s not Peter Sotos. On the other hand, I feel that, even in the mid-90s, it was well-understood that Ellis had been hollowed out by wasps and the resulting semi-sentient meat suit wrapped around a void of self regard and reflexive media engagement. I guess someone thinks he’s aged into an elder statement? Nope, just flaccid skin pulled over bloated nothing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:39 PM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
Well, he’s not Peter Sotos. On the other hand, I feel that, even in the mid-90s, it was well-understood that Ellis had been hollowed out by wasps and the resulting semi-sentient meat suit wrapped around a void of self regard and reflexive media engagement. I guess someone thinks he’s aged into an elder statement? Nope, just flaccid skin pulled over bloated nothing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:39 PM on April 11, 2019 [9 favorites]
The thesis of White is that American culture has entered a period of steep, perhaps irreversible decline, and social media and millennials are to blame.
Why these darn kids barely do cocaine of hookers anymore! Whatta world!
posted by lumpenprole at 5:06 PM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
Why these darn kids barely do cocaine of hookers anymore! Whatta world!
posted by lumpenprole at 5:06 PM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
I see this a lot: folks who "don't care about politics" and are generally apathetic and don't loudly support Trump, and yet get instantly energized and dig in when it comes to attacking people who oppose Trump and the far right.
If only there was a shorter term for "anti-anti-fascist".
posted by AlSweigart at 5:17 PM on April 11, 2019 [29 favorites]
If only there was a shorter term for "anti-anti-fascist".
posted by AlSweigart at 5:17 PM on April 11, 2019 [29 favorites]
I see this a lot: folks who "don't care about politics" and are generally apathetic and don't loudly support Trump, and yet get instantly energized and dig in when it comes to attacking people who oppose Trump and the far right.
I also see this among people (usually white men, and sometimes white women), who are adamant that they aren't racist or misogynist but at the same time do nothing but criticize and police those who actively oppose it. It speaks volumes about where their sympathies and interests really lie.
posted by orange swan at 5:58 PM on April 11, 2019 [22 favorites]
I also see this among people (usually white men, and sometimes white women), who are adamant that they aren't racist or misogynist but at the same time do nothing but criticize and police those who actively oppose it. It speaks volumes about where their sympathies and interests really lie.
posted by orange swan at 5:58 PM on April 11, 2019 [22 favorites]
I was going to ask why anyone agrees to be interviewed by Isaac Chotiner anymore, and then I realized that Chotiner's favorite type of interview subject is probably the kind of self-deluded narcissist who thinks that they will be the one to come off as a wonderful person and great mind in an Isaac Chotiner interview.
posted by murphy slaw at 6:49 PM on April 11, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 6:49 PM on April 11, 2019 [16 favorites]
when people do this you can try saying, "It seems like you don't like it when people speak truth to power." Actually anything you can say that sets people up as critiquing something they want to see themselves doing is generally a good argument tactic, or at least a somewhat satisfying one, with possible offroads being discussions of what constitutes truth, talking about how one shouldn't run for office if one has thin skin, etc.
But then I am privileged, in that this sort of behavior doesn't exhaust me as much as infuriate me. Ellis may think he's just trolling, but his behavior and similar behavior by others is harmful to the psyche of many people, particularly people less privileged then me. When I read what he wrote about Tyler Clementi's suicide in the Chu review, I was appalled, but I have to consider what someone who was queer and closeted would read into it.
Of course, someone like that isn't reading White. I'm not sure what his real audience is, but it's not millennials, and for that at least we can be grateful.
posted by gryftir at 7:10 PM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
But then I am privileged, in that this sort of behavior doesn't exhaust me as much as infuriate me. Ellis may think he's just trolling, but his behavior and similar behavior by others is harmful to the psyche of many people, particularly people less privileged then me. When I read what he wrote about Tyler Clementi's suicide in the Chu review, I was appalled, but I have to consider what someone who was queer and closeted would read into it.
Of course, someone like that isn't reading White. I'm not sure what his real audience is, but it's not millennials, and for that at least we can be grateful.
posted by gryftir at 7:10 PM on April 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
In this case, the superweapon was deployed to confirm a thing that's been bone obvious for a long time to anyone who cared.
Yes, but; These guys should not be allowed to sit around collecting checks and being shitty humans and writing shitty new books about their shitty opinions and have everyone that knows they're shitty look the other way and pretend like everyone's shitty opinion is valid.
That's a big part of how we got here.
Call them out every chance and show how stupid they are.
posted by bongo_x at 7:38 PM on April 11, 2019 [10 favorites]
Yes, but; These guys should not be allowed to sit around collecting checks and being shitty humans and writing shitty new books about their shitty opinions and have everyone that knows they're shitty look the other way and pretend like everyone's shitty opinion is valid.
That's a big part of how we got here.
Call them out every chance and show how stupid they are.
posted by bongo_x at 7:38 PM on April 11, 2019 [10 favorites]
BEE I think you are leading me into things I am not particularly that interested in.
IC Which is what, everything you wrote your book about?
this. this is what you always get when you talk to a supposedly "reasonable" rightwinger, i.e., not openly clamoring for a trump dictatorship. the overwhelming defensiveness, refusal to engage with or interrogate their own stated ideas, projecting their own insecurities on their interlocutors.
it's almost like... they really ARE just like the fringe but are acting in bad faith!
posted by wibari at 9:16 PM on April 11, 2019 [13 favorites]
IC Which is what, everything you wrote your book about?
this. this is what you always get when you talk to a supposedly "reasonable" rightwinger, i.e., not openly clamoring for a trump dictatorship. the overwhelming defensiveness, refusal to engage with or interrogate their own stated ideas, projecting their own insecurities on their interlocutors.
it's almost like... they really ARE just like the fringe but are acting in bad faith!
posted by wibari at 9:16 PM on April 11, 2019 [13 favorites]
Brett Easton Ellis is the Gavin McInnes of literature.
posted by acb at 12:53 AM on April 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by acb at 12:53 AM on April 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
there is no search, literally no search, that you can do on the timeline Bret Easton Ellis's boyfriend which doesn't result in a dramatic series of record-scratch freeze-frame sound effects
posted by acb at 12:56 AM on April 12, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by acb at 12:56 AM on April 12, 2019 [8 favorites]
there is no search, literally no search, that you can do on the timeline Bret Easton Ellis's boyfriend which doesn't result in a dramatic series of record-scratch freeze-frame sound effects
Ugh and he calls Ellis "Author" in his tweets.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:59 AM on April 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
Ugh and he calls Ellis "Author" in his tweets.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:59 AM on April 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
the overwhelming defensiveness, refusal to engage with or interrogate their own stated ideas, projecting their own insecurities on their interlocutors.
it's almost like... they really ARE just like the fringe but are acting in bad faith!
It's an old problem typical of pretty much all bigots and fascists, viz.:
posted by kewb at 9:22 AM on April 12, 2019 [11 favorites]
it's almost like... they really ARE just like the fringe but are acting in bad faith!
It's an old problem typical of pretty much all bigots and fascists, viz.:
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti‐Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. It is not that they are afraid of being convinced. They fear only to appear ridiculous or to prejudice by their embarrassment their hope of winning over some third person to their side.- Jean-Paul Sartre, "Anti-Semite and Jew"
posted by kewb at 9:22 AM on April 12, 2019 [11 favorites]
Larry McCaffery: But at least in the case of “American Psycho” I felt there was something more than just this desire to inflict pain—or that Ellis was being cruel the way you said serious artists need to be willing to be.(via)
DFW: You’re just displaying the sort of cynicism that lets readers be manipulated by bad writing. I think it’s a kind of black cynicism about today’s world that Ellis and certain others depend on for their readership. Look, if the contemporary condition is hopelessly shitty, insipid, materialistic, emotionally retarded, sadomasochistic, and stupid, then I (or any writer) can get away with slapping together stories with characters who are stupid, vapid, emotionally retarded, which is easy, because these sorts of characters require no development. With descriptions that are simply lists of brand-name consumer products. Where stupid people say insipid stuff to each other. If what’s always distinguished bad writing—flat characters, a narrative world that’s cliched and not recognizably human, etc.—is also a description of today’s world, then bad writing becomes an ingenious mimesis of a bad world. If readers simply believe the world is stupid and shallow and mean, then Ellis can write a mean shallow stupid novel that becomes a mordant deadpan commentary on the badness of everything. Look man, we’d probably most of us agree that these are dark times, and stupid ones, but do we need fiction that does nothing but dramatize how dark and stupid everything is? In dark times, the definition of good art would seem to be art that locates and applies CPR to those elements of what’s human and magical that still live and glow despite the times’ darkness. Really good fiction could have as dark a worldview as it wished, but it’d find a way both to depict this world and to illuminate the possibilities for being alive and human in it. You can defend “Psycho” as being a sort of performative digest of late-eighties social problems, but it’s no more than that.
posted by lkc at 2:03 PM on April 12, 2019 [12 favorites]
The thing that kills me about these guys is how they always want to be considered deep thinkers and iconolasts for rehashing bog-standard post-Reaganite conservative positions. They often seem to think that this is warranted by the mere fact that they are contrarians against the alleged liberal orthodoxy of the culture industry, which is an embarassingly sophomoric way to see yourself. Cf. David Mamet.
posted by thelonius at 2:21 PM on April 12, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 2:21 PM on April 12, 2019 [5 favorites]
And here's the cherry on the sundae: for the 1ST ANNIVERSARY JOKETELLERS UNION SHOW this Wednesday we’ll have David Schmader & Ijeoma Oluo performing a dramatic restaging of that tragic New Yorker interview with Bret Easton Ellis. No official statement yet on who's reading which part.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:44 PM on April 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:44 PM on April 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
Ijeoma Oluo mentioned on Facebook that she wanted to hear a dramatic reading of this interview, and my mind immediately started spinning trying to cast the principals. Of all the fevered combinations I came up with, my favorite was Rami Malek as Ellis and Kermit the Frog as Chotiner.
posted by KathrynT at 12:42 PM on April 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 12:42 PM on April 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
What a DICK!
(Say it in your best Margo Channing voice. Cigarette optional.)
posted by OldAndTired at 11:41 PM on April 14, 2019
(Say it in your best Margo Channing voice. Cigarette optional.)
posted by OldAndTired at 11:41 PM on April 14, 2019
And now, in an interview with the Los Angeles Times, Ellis is calling his interview with Chotiner, a "kind of prank" in which he "got punked." Ah yes, the classic prank of scheduling an interview with an author on a promotion tour for his new book and actually asking him challenging questions. I believe Ashton Kutcher got John Updike with that one in Season 2.
It's perhaps worthwhile to contrast this interview with Chotiner's. I count only one follow-up question (or, really, just any question that acknowledges any of Ellis's answers), "What is it about Didion that inspires you?". The rest of the questions might as well have been submitted in advance via email. Compare this with Chotiner's interview where it's mostly a constant back-and-forth with Ellis.
One bit I did find interesting in this interview comes in his answer to the question "Why do you like to elevate aesthetics over ideology?" where Ellis answers in part:
posted by mhum at 2:06 PM on April 15, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's perhaps worthwhile to contrast this interview with Chotiner's. I count only one follow-up question (or, really, just any question that acknowledges any of Ellis's answers), "What is it about Didion that inspires you?". The rest of the questions might as well have been submitted in advance via email. Compare this with Chotiner's interview where it's mostly a constant back-and-forth with Ellis.
One bit I did find interesting in this interview comes in his answer to the question "Why do you like to elevate aesthetics over ideology?" where Ellis answers in part:
For some reason, as a writer, I’ve noticed that style is everything. You could have any character in the world, you could have the best story in the world, if you don’t have a voice selling it, if you don’t have a style, you really don’t have anything. I learned this as a writer very early on that voice and style are everything. Then you can sell whatever you want. I noticed this also in film, it’s just something that I’ve been very aware of.Hmm, you don't say? I wonder if I'd have the gumption to ask the follow-up: "What happens then if and when your style goes out of style?"
posted by mhum at 2:06 PM on April 15, 2019 [1 favorite]
Something from 2017 I just stumbled across:
Bret Easton Ellis condemns the "warped moral superiority of the American Left"
Listening to the many references he makes to his younger Generation Whatever boyfriend, I find myself wondering if the young man even exists, whether meta games are being played. He does sound like the kind of character that would show up in a Bret Eston Ellis novel. Mind you, so does Bret Eston Ellis.
posted by philip-random at 10:44 PM on April 20, 2019
Bret Easton Ellis condemns the "warped moral superiority of the American Left"
Listening to the many references he makes to his younger Generation Whatever boyfriend, I find myself wondering if the young man even exists, whether meta games are being played. He does sound like the kind of character that would show up in a Bret Eston Ellis novel. Mind you, so does Bret Eston Ellis.
posted by philip-random at 10:44 PM on April 20, 2019
Oh he exists, look above to his extremely uh ....representative twitter account
posted by The Whelk at 7:54 AM on April 21, 2019
posted by The Whelk at 7:54 AM on April 21, 2019
Nobody's ever faked a twitter account? Not that I'm seriously arguing such. It's just that, having read a bunch of Ellis's fiction, it's striking how similar his apparent real life sounds
so does Bret Eston Ellis.
Easton.
posted by philip-random at 8:51 AM on April 21, 2019
so does Bret Eston Ellis.
Easton.
posted by philip-random at 8:51 AM on April 21, 2019
TimesTalks: Bret Easton Ellis --
cued to discussion of the Chotiner interview
posted by philip-random at 8:03 PM on April 23, 2019
cued to discussion of the Chotiner interview
posted by philip-random at 8:03 PM on April 23, 2019
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posted by Saxon Kane at 9:31 AM on April 11, 2019 [31 favorites]