Can the Upright Citizens Brigade Theatre Survive?
June 23, 2019 8:44 PM Subscribe
“I can’t go up here and say I promise you UCB will be open forever.” "Is UCB done for? Does bankruptcy loom? Or can the theater survive? There are no easy answers; the hard answers aren’t all that pleasant. If the UCB4 cannot steer the ship out of this crisis, whether by implementing more sustainable practices or selling the business to someone who will, the theater will close."
Previously discussed here.
Previously discussed here.
A friend of mine dearly wants to move to the US to join UCB and I don't think she's aware it might not be there by the time she gets there.
I'm sympathetic to the argument that, if they paid performers, there would be an expectation that the performances would have to make a return, and thus there's a financial incentive to exclude marginalised and therefore less bankable performers. The typical argument against artistic exploitation is that, if you have enough clout to get exposure, you have enough money to pay someone for their time, but that's clearly not the case here - UCB genuinely launches careers, and the money's simply not there.
posted by Merus at 10:40 PM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm sympathetic to the argument that, if they paid performers, there would be an expectation that the performances would have to make a return, and thus there's a financial incentive to exclude marginalised and therefore less bankable performers. The typical argument against artistic exploitation is that, if you have enough clout to get exposure, you have enough money to pay someone for their time, but that's clearly not the case here - UCB genuinely launches careers, and the money's simply not there.
posted by Merus at 10:40 PM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm going to get reamed for that comment, but I can't justify the time finding the right words when I'm supposed to be working. It's something like how UCB is not responsible for the marginalisation of people, and that marginalisation will exist after they're dead.
posted by Merus at 10:42 PM on June 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Merus at 10:42 PM on June 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
I was briefly a part of this scene when the theater first opened. It was a blast, the people were like family, and some of the shows were just magic. For better or for worse though, the place was always chaos. The founders sort of seemed to treat the theater as a side gig lark that just kind of functioned without any thought or management.
posted by xammerboy at 10:49 PM on June 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by xammerboy at 10:49 PM on June 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
I would be suspicious of as little as a penny the UCB management might give me.
Morales in A Chorus Line demonstrated that there's nothing sacred about a particular franchise. If Karp beats you down, find another class and persevere. And feel nothing when he dies. As UCB fails, other troupes form and thrive. Let it fail. The magic is the people, not the business model.
posted by zaixfeep at 11:49 PM on June 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
Morales in A Chorus Line demonstrated that there's nothing sacred about a particular franchise. If Karp beats you down, find another class and persevere. And feel nothing when he dies. As UCB fails, other troupes form and thrive. Let it fail. The magic is the people, not the business model.
posted by zaixfeep at 11:49 PM on June 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
I'm going to get reamed for that comment, but I can't justify the time finding the right words when I'm supposed to be working. It's something like how UCB is not responsible for the marginalisation of people, and that marginalisation will exist after they're dead.
They may not have created that marginalization, but they actively choose to perpetuate it and profit by it by doing this, and so cannot claim to be blameless.
posted by kafziel at 12:23 AM on June 24, 2019 [32 favorites]
They may not have created that marginalization, but they actively choose to perpetuate it and profit by it by doing this, and so cannot claim to be blameless.
posted by kafziel at 12:23 AM on June 24, 2019 [32 favorites]
I was in a very small, but profitable, improv theater group in the early-mid 90s, and all the established improv groups around town (Boston) were run on some model very much like UCB...get people involved with a class, then move them up through teams and events where they have to pay for the privilege of being onstage, only to be hamstrung by having no opportunities outside of their company's shows, because they demanded loyalty and many, many nights of unpaid work.
Someone is taking the money from the performers for these classes, and usually that someone is a landlord or the owners, and for the majority of those who pay to try for a chance, it goes nowhere.
posted by xingcat at 5:31 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
Someone is taking the money from the performers for these classes, and usually that someone is a landlord or the owners, and for the majority of those who pay to try for a chance, it goes nowhere.
posted by xingcat at 5:31 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
Reading through the article, it feels like UCB is just a contradiction waiting to collapse in on itself.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:33 AM on June 24, 2019
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:33 AM on June 24, 2019
It's weird because to some extent the problem here has been solved in other theater venues. I perform in the storytelling scene, and a lot of theaters have a deal where after a certain number of tickets are sold, a percentage of the rest go to the producers. I co-run a show and this deal allows us to then pay our performers something. It's rarely much, but it's at least a gesture to thank them for their time. It also incentivizes them to promote the show; the more people they can get to show up, the more money comes their way. I don;t see any reason UCB/Magnet/PIT can't do the same thing; take in the profits for the first say 20 tickets in order to cover overhead, and then pay the show producers and/or performers directly with a percentage of any sold beyond that.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 6:41 AM on June 24, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by UltraMorgnus at 6:41 AM on June 24, 2019 [9 favorites]
From the article:
Central to UCB’s school of long-form improv—the innovation the theater brought to the art form
Is that a lazy writer not doing their research, or are UCB actively claiming long-form improv as their own innovation?
posted by davejay at 6:54 AM on June 24, 2019 [9 favorites]
Central to UCB’s school of long-form improv—the innovation the theater brought to the art form
Is that a lazy writer not doing their research, or are UCB actively claiming long-form improv as their own innovation?
posted by davejay at 6:54 AM on June 24, 2019 [9 favorites]
Also this:
Besser has likened the UCB Four to Marco Polo “bringing silk from China.”
I always credit Tina Fey for this; I didn't know she was writing for SNL, until a beat-for-beat Harold form sketch aired and I immediately thought "oh shit, someone from Chicago wrote that!" It came after a long stint of SNL gaining a reputation for sketches that ended without endings, and her time on the show (which also included Any Poehler, and David Koechner a bit before her -- he was there a few years earlier and may have written the sketch I'm thinking of, to give credit where due) did a lot to change that perception.
posted by davejay at 7:02 AM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
Besser has likened the UCB Four to Marco Polo “bringing silk from China.”
I always credit Tina Fey for this; I didn't know she was writing for SNL, until a beat-for-beat Harold form sketch aired and I immediately thought "oh shit, someone from Chicago wrote that!" It came after a long stint of SNL gaining a reputation for sketches that ended without endings, and her time on the show (which also included Any Poehler, and David Koechner a bit before her -- he was there a few years earlier and may have written the sketch I'm thinking of, to give credit where due) did a lot to change that perception.
posted by davejay at 7:02 AM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
Here's the sketch: Wake Up and Smile! if you don't know what a Harold is circa the early 90's in Chicago's ImprovOlympic, this is a good place to start. Three-beat scene, beat one establishes the premise, beat two heightens, beat three heightens to ludicrousness and then resolves everything, and all beats separated by interruptions to allow time to pass/unseen developments to occur in the main scene.
posted by davejay at 7:11 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by davejay at 7:11 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
Is that a lazy writer not doing their research, or are UCB actively claiming long-form improv as their own innovation?
I think you cut the sentence too early. I read this clause as referring to the next bit, the "game" bit. No idea whether that's justifiably their innovation, but that's how it read to me.
posted by Four Ds at 7:16 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
I think you cut the sentence too early. I read this clause as referring to the next bit, the "game" bit. No idea whether that's justifiably their innovation, but that's how it read to me.
posted by Four Ds at 7:16 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
I said this in the last UCB thread, but its fundamental commercial problem is that its ticket prices and class tuitions are too low to be sustainable even without paying the talent in the paid-ticket shows.
UCB should restructure as an off-campus unit of the New School, NYU, USC, etc. It would access the grant administration and non-profit donation profile of the acquiring institution. The training program would pick up a new stream of high tuition, government financial aid students matriculated at the acquiring institution, while the balance of the convetional students would remain as effectively extension students. Residential extension programs could become possible with non-matriculated students living in the dorms and doing a full-time course for four or six months at some intermediate tuition point (not as high as NYU, not as cheap as current UCB programs.
posted by MattD at 7:36 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
UCB should restructure as an off-campus unit of the New School, NYU, USC, etc. It would access the grant administration and non-profit donation profile of the acquiring institution. The training program would pick up a new stream of high tuition, government financial aid students matriculated at the acquiring institution, while the balance of the convetional students would remain as effectively extension students. Residential extension programs could become possible with non-matriculated students living in the dorms and doing a full-time course for four or six months at some intermediate tuition point (not as high as NYU, not as cheap as current UCB programs.
posted by MattD at 7:36 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
Ah, improv...so much fun to do...
I studied at Second City and the Annoyance theater in the late nineties for a few years and I had a blast. It was a clique culture then and I can only imagine now. Some amazing talent and direction came from those two schools. Mick Napier, Joe Bill and Susan Messing were working on long-form and long-long form as they called it. So, as the question of genesis of long-form...I'd say the jury is out. I think that all of these performers and directors were running in the same circle as the UCB folks. Taking good ideas and trying them over and over to see if they work is the core to improv as I see it.
As to the article: the transition from punk to mainstream never looks pretty. Commercialization has costs. I love the phrase "at the beginning consider the end". In this case, it appears that the slow-forming organic nature that is intrinsic to improv, in my opinion, is not viable in a more commercialized state. I need to think on this a bit more to be honest.
The pay to play model has always struck me as a no-win for performers. They *might* do well enough that the public notices. They *might* do well enough for agents or talent scouts to notice. They *might* be able to earn a salary to sustain themselves. This is no different than actors, I believe. You work your craft and support yourself elsewhere. However, the punk side of improv would have you thinking about the equitable nature of the craft. That the "spoils" are shared. That the community matters. Wishful thinking does not bring results. Intentful planning can bring a better equitable outcome. That is not in improv's dna though.
Anyway, thanks for the post. Brought back many memories.
posted by zerobyproxy at 8:10 AM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
I studied at Second City and the Annoyance theater in the late nineties for a few years and I had a blast. It was a clique culture then and I can only imagine now. Some amazing talent and direction came from those two schools. Mick Napier, Joe Bill and Susan Messing were working on long-form and long-long form as they called it. So, as the question of genesis of long-form...I'd say the jury is out. I think that all of these performers and directors were running in the same circle as the UCB folks. Taking good ideas and trying them over and over to see if they work is the core to improv as I see it.
As to the article: the transition from punk to mainstream never looks pretty. Commercialization has costs. I love the phrase "at the beginning consider the end". In this case, it appears that the slow-forming organic nature that is intrinsic to improv, in my opinion, is not viable in a more commercialized state. I need to think on this a bit more to be honest.
The pay to play model has always struck me as a no-win for performers. They *might* do well enough that the public notices. They *might* do well enough for agents or talent scouts to notice. They *might* be able to earn a salary to sustain themselves. This is no different than actors, I believe. You work your craft and support yourself elsewhere. However, the punk side of improv would have you thinking about the equitable nature of the craft. That the "spoils" are shared. That the community matters. Wishful thinking does not bring results. Intentful planning can bring a better equitable outcome. That is not in improv's dna though.
Anyway, thanks for the post. Brought back many memories.
posted by zerobyproxy at 8:10 AM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
I agree with all the problems in the article, but this pyramid scheme could keep going forever except for:
UCB East Village was a terrible space for improv--it was a long and narrow theater and it was impossible to hear or really see what was going on past the middle of the theater.
Only people that have been living in LA for over a decade would think that moving to 42nd and 11th was a good idea.
I don't know what the LA theaters are like.
posted by Automocar at 8:17 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
UCB East Village was a terrible space for improv--it was a long and narrow theater and it was impossible to hear or really see what was going on past the middle of the theater.
Only people that have been living in LA for over a decade would think that moving to 42nd and 11th was a good idea.
I don't know what the LA theaters are like.
posted by Automocar at 8:17 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
My favorite memory/nightmare from watching Chicago improv - watching a 24 person long-form scene in an iO anniversary show.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:18 AM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:18 AM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
I confess that I don't really know much about the UCB etc except what I read here so this is just an impression. 1.) I don't see how anything like this would ever make any money/pay for itself. 2.)Was this at its' inception and through it's life about individual artists/"comedy workers" having power/opportunity to grab the brass ring? Doesn't that fundamentally leave the vast majority of participants behind? 3.) Isn't it likely that UCB had it's day in the sun and now if you are as ambitious as its' founders are you start your own thing and for everyone else who partakes it is really just a fun thing to do?
posted by Pembquist at 8:35 AM on June 24, 2019
posted by Pembquist at 8:35 AM on June 24, 2019
"So, as the question of genesis of long-form...I'd say the jury is out."
Actually, this history has been written by many, most recently Sam Wasson in Improv Nation. Longform improvisational theater was invented by The Committee in San Francisco in 1963. Their form "The Fear Guilt and Impotence Collage" pre-dated the Harold, which was named in a Committee workshop, after Del Close arrived as a director in 1967. Del took The Committee's work with him when he rejoined The Second City in the early seventies.
The Committee Harold was much different than the Harold practiced today (employing Spolin games, no "game of the scene", no beats), though it did include an "opening" that would be familiar to modern practitioners.
posted by mcgordonliddy at 11:33 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
Actually, this history has been written by many, most recently Sam Wasson in Improv Nation. Longform improvisational theater was invented by The Committee in San Francisco in 1963. Their form "The Fear Guilt and Impotence Collage" pre-dated the Harold, which was named in a Committee workshop, after Del Close arrived as a director in 1967. Del took The Committee's work with him when he rejoined The Second City in the early seventies.
The Committee Harold was much different than the Harold practiced today (employing Spolin games, no "game of the scene", no beats), though it did include an "opening" that would be familiar to modern practitioners.
posted by mcgordonliddy at 11:33 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
"Casting agencies aren’t hauling out to 42nd and 11th Avenue,”
Yeah, if only there was a ubiquitous way to get cheaply around the island of Manhattan.
That 3 blocks is a killer.
posted by exparrot at 12:24 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Yeah, if only there was a ubiquitous way to get cheaply around the island of Manhattan.
That 3 blocks is a killer.
posted by exparrot at 12:24 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
i love a lot of the comedy this cultish mlm-theater bullshit produces, literally so many podcast hours enjoyed thanks to the fruits of the concentration of talent, but honestly, besser's a quasi-racist edgelord dick as much as he is funny, and he's probably the one with the most to lose from the death of this particular institution. sucks to have to put your face in the bucket of truth some times, but here we are. shut up. hit me.
posted by rotten at 12:32 PM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by rotten at 12:32 PM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
"Actually, this history has been written by many, most recently Sam Wasson in Improv Nation. Longform improvisational theater was invented by The Committee in San Francisco in 1963. Their form "The Fear Guilt and Impotence Collage" pre-dated the Harold, which was named in a Committee workshop, after Del Close arrived as a director in 1967. Del took The Committee's work with him when he rejoined The Second City in the early seventies.
The Committee Harold was much different than the Harold practiced today (employing Spolin games, no "game of the scene", no beats), though it did include an "opening" that would be familiar to modern practitioners."
@mcgodonliddy thanks! I was completely unaware of the origin. Very interesting the evolution that the long-form has taken over the past *50 years*. I will need to check out that book! My historical naivety is showing.
posted by zerobyproxy at 12:43 PM on June 24, 2019
The Committee Harold was much different than the Harold practiced today (employing Spolin games, no "game of the scene", no beats), though it did include an "opening" that would be familiar to modern practitioners."
@mcgodonliddy thanks! I was completely unaware of the origin. Very interesting the evolution that the long-form has taken over the past *50 years*. I will need to check out that book! My historical naivety is showing.
posted by zerobyproxy at 12:43 PM on June 24, 2019
@zeroproxy - no naivete is evident! The Committee's role in the development of longform improvisational theater has been sidelined by the Del Close personality cult and it's not well-known. I've been studying it for the better part of a decade, so look to shed light whenever possible. We are currently digitizing a recording of a Committee Harold from 1967 which I hope to get out into the world at some point. I highly recommend Improv Nation, which covers everything except Johnstone & Chudnow.
posted by mcgordonliddy at 12:53 PM on June 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by mcgordonliddy at 12:53 PM on June 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
Was Wake Up and Smile a Tina Fey sketch? It aired during the Will Ferrell/Jimmy Fallon doldrums and really stood out. It was like, "Oh, my God... Somebody actually put in some effort and wrote a good sketch! How did this get on?"
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:48 PM on June 24, 2019
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:48 PM on June 24, 2019
I thought so at first, but I looked at the dates when I wrote the comment, and it looks like it aired in David Koechner's first year, so likely his, as he got his start at ImprovOlympic in Chicago.
posted by davejay at 11:25 PM on June 24, 2019
posted by davejay at 11:25 PM on June 24, 2019
That 3 blocks is a killer.
It kind of is thought. It takes 15 minutes to walk to the theater from the nearest subway station (those three blocks? 7/10 of a mile), and another 5 to get to any train there that isn't the A/C/E.
I mean yeah, casting directors probably take Ubers, but it's still nowhere as convenient as it used to be.
posted by Automocar at 9:51 AM on June 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
It kind of is thought. It takes 15 minutes to walk to the theater from the nearest subway station (those three blocks? 7/10 of a mile), and another 5 to get to any train there that isn't the A/C/E.
I mean yeah, casting directors probably take Ubers, but it's still nowhere as convenient as it used to be.
posted by Automocar at 9:51 AM on June 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
UCB Moved Its 55-Hour Improv Marathon To LA, Because All Its Performers Live Here Now
"Part of the shift to L.A.: bringing in fewer teams from around the country, with a focus on UCB's own homegrown talent. They're also reducing the number of venues. Rather than taking over comedy theaters across the city, this year's DCM will be kept to the three stages at UCB's Franklin and Sunset locations.
"We are trying to figure out the logistics of running a festival in L.A.," Walsh said. "In New York, people walk a lot, or there's a subway. In L.A., we're encouraging people to take a Lyft."
This year's also shifted to more of an a la carte model, where rather than all-access wristbands, the festival has been selling tickets to certain blocks of shows. While it means less comedy in one go, it also means avoiding the giant lines that became a hallmark of DCM in New York."
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:28 PM on June 29, 2019
"Part of the shift to L.A.: bringing in fewer teams from around the country, with a focus on UCB's own homegrown talent. They're also reducing the number of venues. Rather than taking over comedy theaters across the city, this year's DCM will be kept to the three stages at UCB's Franklin and Sunset locations.
"We are trying to figure out the logistics of running a festival in L.A.," Walsh said. "In New York, people walk a lot, or there's a subway. In L.A., we're encouraging people to take a Lyft."
This year's also shifted to more of an a la carte model, where rather than all-access wristbands, the festival has been selling tickets to certain blocks of shows. While it means less comedy in one go, it also means avoiding the giant lines that became a hallmark of DCM in New York."
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:28 PM on June 29, 2019
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