can't find the edge unless you fall off once in a while
June 24, 2019 9:04 AM Subscribe
So if type I fun is things that are fun while they are occurring, and type II fun is things that feel bad in the moment, but are looked back on fondly, and type III fun is things that are no fun at all, why would anyone deliberately seek out type II (or 'latent') fun?
Project Y tries to find out
Somewhere in the middle of this mess lies Type II fun, which is God-awful while you’re doing it, but totally worth it once you’re done.
Project Y tries to find out
Somewhere in the middle of this mess lies Type II fun, which is God-awful while you’re doing it, but totally worth it once you’re done.
or as Bruce Springsteen put it way back when.
"Mama always told me not to look into the sights of the sun,
But Mama, that's where the fun is."
posted by philip-random at 9:11 AM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
"Mama always told me not to look into the sights of the sun,
But Mama, that's where the fun is."
posted by philip-random at 9:11 AM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
A lot of Type II fun seems like a route you need to take to reach Type I fun. Like the trip up in the plane before you skydive out of it. Or the more boring passages of a book or book series that ends up profoundly affecting you (for those of us who aren’t adrenaline junkies). Or all that practice before you master a language or instrument.
posted by sallybrown at 9:20 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 9:20 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
The scale my friends and I use is: Type I fun is fun while you're doing it, like biking down a big hill. Type II fun is not fun while you're doing it, but it is fun when you're done, like biking up a big hill. Type III fun is not fun while you're doing it, and it's not fun when you're done, but it's fun for you to tell people about later, like if Bruce Springsteen stole your bike or something. Type IV fun is not fun while you're doing it, it's not fun when you're done, and it's not fun for you tell people about, but it's fun for your friends to tell people about. Like when your pants fell down and you got arrested.
We have not yet discovered a Type V fun, and are actively working to avoid doing so.
posted by aubilenon at 9:21 AM on June 24, 2019 [174 favorites]
We have not yet discovered a Type V fun, and are actively working to avoid doing so.
posted by aubilenon at 9:21 AM on June 24, 2019 [174 favorites]
When I was 18 I was dragged for six blocks by a half-ton truck doing about 70km/hr. I was hanging on to the tailgate trying to get in, others were trying to help me, but we just couldn't manage it. The driver thought I was in the truck but took off before I got all the way in--it took him six blocks to realize the people in the box of the truck were shouting for him to stop, not shouting from enjoying the ride. I genuinely believed I was going to die. The roads were mostly covered with snow and some ice, so the event destroyed my shoes and jeans but otherwise I escaped completely unharmed.
The adrenaline rush didn't hit until after it was over, and it might be the biggest high I've ever had in my entire life. Even though it was an accident and I literally nearly died I immediately wanted to do it again. (Totally Type II fun.)
posted by Fish Sauce at 9:22 AM on June 24, 2019 [18 favorites]
The adrenaline rush didn't hit until after it was over, and it might be the biggest high I've ever had in my entire life. Even though it was an accident and I literally nearly died I immediately wanted to do it again. (Totally Type II fun.)
posted by Fish Sauce at 9:22 AM on June 24, 2019 [18 favorites]
I think type V fun is the Darwin Awards.
posted by echo target at 9:24 AM on June 24, 2019 [23 favorites]
posted by echo target at 9:24 AM on June 24, 2019 [23 favorites]
We have not yet discovered a Type V fun, and are actively working to avoid doing so.
Maybe starring in a humiliating viral video? Or is that an extension of Type IV?
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:25 AM on June 24, 2019
Maybe starring in a humiliating viral video? Or is that an extension of Type IV?
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:25 AM on June 24, 2019
Type V fun is other people feeling Schadenfreude about the thing that happened to you.
posted by Caduceus at 9:30 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Caduceus at 9:30 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
type II fun is the best kind of fun to recount to others, though. the "this hilarrible thing happened to me and now we are all going to laugh about it like maniacs" stuff.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:30 AM on June 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:30 AM on June 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
It really seems like "type II fun" - and I would argue that there are many more types of ostensible fun - is merely "not fun, but unconsequentlal results that make for a great story that is fun to tell".
Like, I broke my little finger off - I broke it OFF - in a freak biking accident in the early aughts. It was reattached in surgery, I had pins in it for forever. It's now 2019 and I have a totally functional little finger that is totally normal in every respect and it's fun as hell to tell people about how back in the day I broke it off.
It's certainly fun to tell that story now, but I assure you that I was having zero fun during the years where I was working to get that finger to function again. The fun is in the strangely improbable moral that I have no lasting impact from something happening to me that was really quite awful. Is that fun? Uh, sort of. It's like the opposite of schadenfreude.
posted by eschatfische at 9:32 AM on June 24, 2019 [16 favorites]
Like, I broke my little finger off - I broke it OFF - in a freak biking accident in the early aughts. It was reattached in surgery, I had pins in it for forever. It's now 2019 and I have a totally functional little finger that is totally normal in every respect and it's fun as hell to tell people about how back in the day I broke it off.
It's certainly fun to tell that story now, but I assure you that I was having zero fun during the years where I was working to get that finger to function again. The fun is in the strangely improbable moral that I have no lasting impact from something happening to me that was really quite awful. Is that fun? Uh, sort of. It's like the opposite of schadenfreude.
posted by eschatfische at 9:32 AM on June 24, 2019 [16 favorites]
eschatfische, your story might have just ruined every type of fun for me
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:35 AM on June 24, 2019 [19 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:35 AM on June 24, 2019 [19 favorites]
So I used to hike up an down this small-ish mountain, and the view was nice. Kind of pretty, worth a look. But if you offered me an equivalent amount of effort and pain to have that view, like a series of bee stings, or digging a hole just to fill it up, I wouldn't have taken it.
There was something about the hike itself that I enjoyed, even though it wasn't fun.
I'm interested that they picked gravel riding. It's harder than road, more solitary, and the surface means you can't really get into pacelines and you have to constantly be watching, adjusting, and picking lines. It's a combination of large amount of physical effort and mental focus.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:38 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
There was something about the hike itself that I enjoyed, even though it wasn't fun.
I'm interested that they picked gravel riding. It's harder than road, more solitary, and the surface means you can't really get into pacelines and you have to constantly be watching, adjusting, and picking lines. It's a combination of large amount of physical effort and mental focus.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:38 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
A friend once told me, "We were going to invite you, but then we remembered you don't like fun." I'm not sure if she was right or if I just have not had fun yet.
posted by dobbs at 9:40 AM on June 24, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by dobbs at 9:40 AM on June 24, 2019 [11 favorites]
It really seems like "type II fun" - and I would argue that there are many more types of ostensible fun - is merely "not fun, but unconsequentlal results that make for a great story that is fun to tell".
reminds me of an old high school friend who was obviously wiser than the rest of us. When crazy options were being discussed, he'd say, "Let's not, and say we did."
posted by philip-random at 9:42 AM on June 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
reminds me of an old high school friend who was obviously wiser than the rest of us. When crazy options were being discussed, he'd say, "Let's not, and say we did."
posted by philip-random at 9:42 AM on June 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
My Type II fun story was that when I fell off my motorcycle at 50 mph (clear road, nothing in front for as far as I can see, checked over my shoulder prior to changing lanes, suddenly flying through the air), I came down on my elbow and started sliding down the road on my ass. Thanks to elbow armor in my jacket and Kevlar in my jeans I suffered no real harm, and when I slowed down to about 10 mph I put my boots down and stood up in one motion. The feeling of "tadaa!" will always be with me.
So I guess the question from the article is, was I deliberately seeking out moments like that when I decided to buy and ride a motorcycle? Yeah, I think so, but I still would have said all along that falling off at 50 mph was to be avoided. I did have that nebulous "this will either kill me or give me good stories" feeling when I bought it.
posted by BeeDo at 9:42 AM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
So I guess the question from the article is, was I deliberately seeking out moments like that when I decided to buy and ride a motorcycle? Yeah, I think so, but I still would have said all along that falling off at 50 mph was to be avoided. I did have that nebulous "this will either kill me or give me good stories" feeling when I bought it.
posted by BeeDo at 9:42 AM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
Most of my early footraces were Type II fun. I would curse myself as I was running for getting myself into a borderline painful, uncomfortable situation, but afterwards I would be super happy to have done it.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:50 AM on June 24, 2019
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:50 AM on June 24, 2019
Incrementing by less and less fun seems a bad choice, or at least it would be if you monkeys were aware of more of the different kinds of fun. I mean the only place you've got to conveniently go to is Type Zero fun, would presumably be direct stimulation of the pleasure center to whatever degree is desired.
But what about Kardashev Type II fun? What about temporarily reconfiguring your mentality to find any arbitrary act, such as bureaucratic paperwork or eating a Brussels sprout, highly enjoyable? Is that Type Negative-One fun? Self-destructive acts performed while under continuous datasuck for later reconstruction, like nude skydiving into lava?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:52 AM on June 24, 2019 [10 favorites]
But what about Kardashev Type II fun? What about temporarily reconfiguring your mentality to find any arbitrary act, such as bureaucratic paperwork or eating a Brussels sprout, highly enjoyable? Is that Type Negative-One fun? Self-destructive acts performed while under continuous datasuck for later reconstruction, like nude skydiving into lava?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:52 AM on June 24, 2019 [10 favorites]
Type II fun, at least for me, isn't just about adrenaline or stories. The most rewarding thing about doing something that's physically demanding and a little risky (or at least potentially dangerous if you don't do the right thing) is that it's a growth experience in some way. Either you're getting more skilled at some sport, becoming more physically fit, or plumbing the depths of your own determination/resourcefulness/perseverance in ways that you volunteer for and largely control. There aren't very many kinds of routine activities that actually push us in ways that are healthy and beneficial to us as individuals. Most of the ways society pushes is are in ways that are more good for society than they are for us. Type II fun subverts that pattern, and allows us to put the quotidian annoyances of life in perspective.
posted by cirgue at 9:52 AM on June 24, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by cirgue at 9:52 AM on June 24, 2019 [13 favorites]
Type V fun is taking a look at Types I - IV and then going back to bed.
posted by fullerine at 10:04 AM on June 24, 2019 [17 favorites]
posted by fullerine at 10:04 AM on June 24, 2019 [17 favorites]
I think it's easy to conflate Type I and Type II.
For example, when I am hiking up a particularly steep grade I am miserable. I am kept going by sheer bloody-mindedness. I am not thinking about how great it will feel later -- my world shrinks down to the next step, and then the step after that.
And yet I am very intolerant of things that aren't fun. My life is too short to do things I don't enjoy. So I am forced to conclude that climbing that hill is in fact Fun I, I'm just too distracted to be aware of it.
Type II fun exists in my world, but never intentionally.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:10 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
For example, when I am hiking up a particularly steep grade I am miserable. I am kept going by sheer bloody-mindedness. I am not thinking about how great it will feel later -- my world shrinks down to the next step, and then the step after that.
And yet I am very intolerant of things that aren't fun. My life is too short to do things I don't enjoy. So I am forced to conclude that climbing that hill is in fact Fun I, I'm just too distracted to be aware of it.
Type II fun exists in my world, but never intentionally.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:10 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
My Type II fun story was that when I fell off my motorcycle at 50 mph ... and started sliding down the road on my ass. ... I suffered no real harm, and when I slowed down to about 10 mph I put my boots down and stood up in one motion.
I have an almost identical story, except mine happened on black ice, and when I stood up because my bike was going away from me and I wanted to catch up, I suddenly ran out of ice and started tumbling. It hurt. I am confident that it wasn't the sort of experience I hoped for when I started riding.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:30 AM on June 24, 2019
I have an almost identical story, except mine happened on black ice, and when I stood up because my bike was going away from me and I wanted to catch up, I suddenly ran out of ice and started tumbling. It hurt. I am confident that it wasn't the sort of experience I hoped for when I started riding.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:30 AM on June 24, 2019
For example, when I am hiking up a particularly steep grade I am miserable. I am kept going by sheer bloody-mindedness. I am not thinking about how great it will feel later -- my world shrinks down to the next step, and then the step after that.
That's definitive, and unambiguous, Type II fun. It's still fun, after all.
posted by Carmody'sPrize at 10:32 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
That's definitive, and unambiguous, Type II fun. It's still fun, after all.
posted by Carmody'sPrize at 10:32 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
it's fun for you to tell people about later, like if Bruce Springsteen stole your bike or something.
'cause tramps like us
babe we're having type II fuuuuuun
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:35 AM on June 24, 2019 [10 favorites]
'cause tramps like us
babe we're having type II fuuuuuun
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:35 AM on June 24, 2019 [10 favorites]
This is interesting. I'm definitely a type II person. With the exception of sex, food, and drinking, I mostly go out of my way to avoid type I fun, 'cause it always leaves me feeling disappointed afterward. (Sex, food, and drinking can do the same. But, less often.)
My personal sense is that "fun" isn't exactly the right word, though it makes sense in this categorization. "Interesting" or "engaging" is really what we're talking about. I'd much rather do something interesting that's really unpleasant than something boring that's fun. I don't think it's about telling other people; there are plenty of type II stories I've never told, 'cause they make me look stupid. But, at least for me, immediately after most Type I fun (binge re-watching my favorite TV show), I feel sad. Immediately after type II fun (getting lost in foreign woods during a surprise snowstorm with inadequate clothing), I feel great.
posted by eotvos at 10:36 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
My personal sense is that "fun" isn't exactly the right word, though it makes sense in this categorization. "Interesting" or "engaging" is really what we're talking about. I'd much rather do something interesting that's really unpleasant than something boring that's fun. I don't think it's about telling other people; there are plenty of type II stories I've never told, 'cause they make me look stupid. But, at least for me, immediately after most Type I fun (binge re-watching my favorite TV show), I feel sad. Immediately after type II fun (getting lost in foreign woods during a surprise snowstorm with inadequate clothing), I feel great.
posted by eotvos at 10:36 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
Type II fun sounds like a rhetorical trap to get someone to agree that unpleasant things are necessary. Look, I get that working hard is necessary to pay my bills that are required to buy nice things, but my job is not Type II fun. I also enjoy tasty meals, but work is not Type II delicious.
posted by explosion at 10:36 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by explosion at 10:36 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
Look, I get that working hard is necessary to pay my bills that are required to buy nice things, but my job is not Type II fun
there is a strong undercurrent of Protestantism in all of this.
Fun = pleasure where I come from. The pain I must endure to have that fun, sorry but there are plenty other words for that. Ten years of bloody Catholic catechism (no fun at all) is at least good for something.
posted by philip-random at 10:44 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
there is a strong undercurrent of Protestantism in all of this.
Fun = pleasure where I come from. The pain I must endure to have that fun, sorry but there are plenty other words for that. Ten years of bloody Catholic catechism (no fun at all) is at least good for something.
posted by philip-random at 10:44 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
>> For example, when I am hiking up a particularly steep grade I am
>> miserable. I am kept going by sheer bloody-mindedness. I am not
>> thinking about how great it will feel later -- my world shrinks down
>> to the next step, and then the step after that.
>
> That's definitive, and unambiguous, Type II fun. It's still fun, after all.
I'd agree with you except that I have a well established history of walking away from things that I don't enjoy. Apparently I enjoy that particular type of being miserable, which would make it Type I fun.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:51 AM on June 24, 2019
>> miserable. I am kept going by sheer bloody-mindedness. I am not
>> thinking about how great it will feel later -- my world shrinks down
>> to the next step, and then the step after that.
>
> That's definitive, and unambiguous, Type II fun. It's still fun, after all.
I'd agree with you except that I have a well established history of walking away from things that I don't enjoy. Apparently I enjoy that particular type of being miserable, which would make it Type I fun.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:51 AM on June 24, 2019
Some TypeII activity comes under achievement. Not actually fun, but mileage/altitude gained, muscles stronger, survival, list checked, belt notched. The stories are about the belt being notched. Looking forward to telling the story is a motivator.
posted by theora55 at 11:04 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 11:04 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
In this scheme I guess my yearly Solstice observance, where I drive alone to our local river swimming hole to get naked and fully submerged in the dark cold water exactly halfway between sunset and sunrise on the longest night of the year, counts as type 1.5 fun. It feels terrible in the moment and fun while occurring.
posted by flabdablet at 11:30 AM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 11:30 AM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
Type II fun is a useful frame for adjusting attitudes. If (hypothetically of course), you're leading a hike and your group gets set on by a swarm of bees and someone runs through a big bramble patch and we're all welt-y and bleeding and crying, framing it as Type II fun gives you a handy way to up morale, "wow this is going to make a great story! Who could ever forget this day?!"
I also prefer Type II activities for groups that I'm trying to bond with - it's miserable, but being chased by bees builds a much stronger group dynamic than Type I activities in my experience.
posted by matrixclown at 11:31 AM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
I also prefer Type II activities for groups that I'm trying to bond with - it's miserable, but being chased by bees builds a much stronger group dynamic than Type I activities in my experience.
posted by matrixclown at 11:31 AM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
Nearly everything I do in my workshop is tedious while actually doing it; some of it is downright awful. But the sense of accomplishment and satisfaction of having done it makes it worth it, and is "fun".
(Contemplates why "chores" and "marketing oneself" and "exercise", which can all lead to a sense of accomplishment, are not "fun".)
posted by maxwelton at 11:33 AM on June 24, 2019
(Contemplates why "chores" and "marketing oneself" and "exercise", which can all lead to a sense of accomplishment, are not "fun".)
posted by maxwelton at 11:33 AM on June 24, 2019
I also prefer Type II activities for groups that I'm trying to bond with - it's miserable, but being chased by bees builds a much stronger group dynamic than Type I activities in my experience.
"It was hilarious when maxwelton was carried away by the bees...he said he couldn't run very well, and, by god, he couldn't! Haha, we'll be hearing those shrieks forever! Or least until the bees get another couple miles away. Anyway, who wants some trail mix?"
posted by maxwelton at 11:36 AM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
"It was hilarious when maxwelton was carried away by the bees...he said he couldn't run very well, and, by god, he couldn't! Haha, we'll be hearing those shrieks forever! Or least until the bees get another couple miles away. Anyway, who wants some trail mix?"
posted by maxwelton at 11:36 AM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
I mean, nobody I know who throws the phrase "type 2 fun" around would dream of applying it to chores, or your day job, or a weight training routine, or really much of anything that's Protestantly virtuous. So if you feel like that's what the definition is saying, we're failing at explaining it.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:38 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:38 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
subject group seems a little "WEIRD". They're drawing on a lot of disciplines, I wonder if the recent "flow state" research ties into it.
I find their site almost un-navigable!
Also, they're using frames! Frames! In $CURRENT_YEAR!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:39 AM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
I find their site almost un-navigable!
Also, they're using frames! Frames! In $CURRENT_YEAR!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:39 AM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
On my very first date in college with a woman I ended up living with for five years, as a result of a bad decision I made, we had to wade three hours and several miles down a still ice-encrusted creek which was very swift in places and up to chest deep, where I ended up getting very briefly swept under some remaining ice early on, and where we had to climb up about twenty feet of very steep and slick rock near the end. Air temperature was in the upper 30s, she had hiking shoes, a jacket, and wool pants, thank God and her good judgement, and I was wearing tennis shoes, jeans, and a sweat shirt, which was typical of my judgement.
Was it fun? No. I was terrified almost every inch of the way that she was going to be killed, and I would mostly definitely have been to blame.
I did not tell anyone about that experience until at least two decades later, not my friends at school, lovers, therapists -- no one. And when I did, for a long time I made it into a joke. I don't recall that she and I ever talked about it, much less relived it. The setting was absolutely beautiful, however, and I revisit it occasionally, not only in dreams, and for sustained intensity of strong emotion, it's hard to match.
posted by jamjam at 12:03 PM on June 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
Was it fun? No. I was terrified almost every inch of the way that she was going to be killed, and I would mostly definitely have been to blame.
I did not tell anyone about that experience until at least two decades later, not my friends at school, lovers, therapists -- no one. And when I did, for a long time I made it into a joke. I don't recall that she and I ever talked about it, much less relived it. The setting was absolutely beautiful, however, and I revisit it occasionally, not only in dreams, and for sustained intensity of strong emotion, it's hard to match.
posted by jamjam at 12:03 PM on June 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
I hiked up the highest mountain in England (which ain't all that, really) in July in the middle of a cold rainstorm (and northern England understands cold rainstorms). Big-time type II fun.
I've run 15 marathons. All type II.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 12:11 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
I've run 15 marathons. All type II.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 12:11 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
Isn't the idea of Type II fun a more generalizable view of the relationship between pleasure and time?
Think of Proust's remarks on sensations and mental habits getting in the way of appreciating something that can be excavated more purely in memory: “some feeling of fatigue or sadness had perhaps prevented me from enjoying at Balbec that which now, freed from what is necessarily imperfect in external perception, pure and disincarnate, caused me to swell with happiness...”
posted by Beardman at 12:13 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Think of Proust's remarks on sensations and mental habits getting in the way of appreciating something that can be excavated more purely in memory: “some feeling of fatigue or sadness had perhaps prevented me from enjoying at Balbec that which now, freed from what is necessarily imperfect in external perception, pure and disincarnate, caused me to swell with happiness...”
posted by Beardman at 12:13 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Ms.Know-it-some observes that a lot of parenting, especially of young children, is Type II fun. I've learned that the key to making more of it Type I is to think about how you will describe it after you have recovered. Of course, mental and physical exhaustion makes that hard.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:13 PM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:13 PM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
the full length video digs more into the interviews and details of the process.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:20 PM on June 24, 2019
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:20 PM on June 24, 2019
A friend of mine made an important distinction between things that are fun and things that are rewarding. I think we can go further and observe a distinction between things that are rewarding (like cleaning house, because you get to have a clean house when you're done) and things that are type-II fun (like a lot of endurance sports).
posted by adamrice at 12:22 PM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 12:22 PM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
I think I actually enjoy a lot of what people call type II fun while in the moment, but that also might mean I'm a bit of a masochist. Which is likely true considering I seem to like being stung by stinging nettles and getting all banged up by life.
I mean I like going downhill on my bike just fine, but the really rewarding riding is in the climb and I mean that in the moment, not when I get to the top of the hill and get to go back down again with some sense of achievement.
I've learned that if I need to figure something out that's stumping me or bothering me I'll usually figure out while climbing a hill on my bike or on foot. Most of my best ideas for projects, music and art come to me on a climb. I just get lost in thoughts, especially if I'm carefully picking my way up some kind of twisty and vaguely technically challenging hill on my gravel/touring bike.
I think it also helps that I finally put some proper touring and climbing gears on that bike and now going up hills is a lot less chore and more calm, meditative and plain old easier.
Another thing I like to do that's probably type II fun for most people is doing complicated technical hobbies like running a music show or performance. I actually really like the stress of it, the constant planning. I like the doing of all the things and wearing many hats from graphic design to live audio engineering to performing myself and doing lots of genuine emotional labor with friends as it's own form of earnest and genuine promotion and outreach to build community, as opposed to just marketing and handing out fliers and trying to be a rock star or something.
I don't really care for the attention and recognition, and I'm shy about whatever small amounts of celebrity and thanks and stuff and it isn't about that. I actually mainly dislike being on a stage as a performer, and am much happier as a tech running around in black in the dark plugging in the wires to make it all go. The afterglow after a successful event is nice but it isn't really that, either.
Nah, I'm actually in the flow and happiest when I'm just doing all the possible things. And, yeah, it's type II fun so maybe I gripe about it a little when it gets hectic and I find myself saying aloud "Holy shit this is all my fault!" but I really am happiest when in the thick of it with a running checklist in my head ten paragraphs (or pages!) deep and I'm looking at my watch every 30 seconds and having minor panic attacks about how much there is to do or managing to keep the show running on time and so on.
Similarly I love stressing out about, say packing and planning for a trip or hike. It's one of the things I've learned to just let myself do and not feel bad about. People who don't know me or don't get it misinterpret it that I'm being paranoid or actually worried or catastrophizing about something, and I'm not. "Relax!" "This is how I relax!" No, I just really like nerding the fuck out and planning and sorting my kit and gear. And then I really like using that gear and being remarkably clever with it and having a really nice camp from which to relax and enjoy the scenery and environment.
It's no surprise that a lot of this leads to type III fun and sometimes even slight or not so slight mortal peril and... to be honest I kind of like that a little bit, too. I've mellowed out a lot but I've done a lot of gravity-defying and remarkably stupid things and should maybe be dead or at least paralyzed a few dozen times over.
I used to regularly taunt gravity and basic Newtonian physics and tell it to go take a flying fuck at the moon. I would honestly love to see a montage of all of my best wipeouts and crashes because it'd probably be several hours worth of material.
This list includes falling off of cliffs while free climbing and bouldering - or, once, playing paintball and diving the wrong way and ending up 40 feet down in the brush after thankfully bouncing off a rock with my ass instead of my bare head. Or surfing 20+ foot shorebreak waves, nearly drowning a dozen times in huge surf. Or being upside down and wrong side up on bicycles, skateboards, scooters and nearly anything with wheels, intentionally skateboarding off cliffs and other places you shouldn't skateboard. Or doing inadvisable things with fire. Or being chased by aggressive bees - I can go on for probably a whole book about the many ways I've nearly died that were just dumb and really risky.
In hindsight I'm really glad I did not get into, say, motocross or extreme downhill mountain biking because I would have eventually gone splat somewhere. Because it definitely wasn't skill or agility that ever saved me but just dumb luck, physical durability and fast healing times.
posted by loquacious at 12:26 PM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
I mean I like going downhill on my bike just fine, but the really rewarding riding is in the climb and I mean that in the moment, not when I get to the top of the hill and get to go back down again with some sense of achievement.
I've learned that if I need to figure something out that's stumping me or bothering me I'll usually figure out while climbing a hill on my bike or on foot. Most of my best ideas for projects, music and art come to me on a climb. I just get lost in thoughts, especially if I'm carefully picking my way up some kind of twisty and vaguely technically challenging hill on my gravel/touring bike.
I think it also helps that I finally put some proper touring and climbing gears on that bike and now going up hills is a lot less chore and more calm, meditative and plain old easier.
Another thing I like to do that's probably type II fun for most people is doing complicated technical hobbies like running a music show or performance. I actually really like the stress of it, the constant planning. I like the doing of all the things and wearing many hats from graphic design to live audio engineering to performing myself and doing lots of genuine emotional labor with friends as it's own form of earnest and genuine promotion and outreach to build community, as opposed to just marketing and handing out fliers and trying to be a rock star or something.
I don't really care for the attention and recognition, and I'm shy about whatever small amounts of celebrity and thanks and stuff and it isn't about that. I actually mainly dislike being on a stage as a performer, and am much happier as a tech running around in black in the dark plugging in the wires to make it all go. The afterglow after a successful event is nice but it isn't really that, either.
Nah, I'm actually in the flow and happiest when I'm just doing all the possible things. And, yeah, it's type II fun so maybe I gripe about it a little when it gets hectic and I find myself saying aloud "Holy shit this is all my fault!" but I really am happiest when in the thick of it with a running checklist in my head ten paragraphs (or pages!) deep and I'm looking at my watch every 30 seconds and having minor panic attacks about how much there is to do or managing to keep the show running on time and so on.
Similarly I love stressing out about, say packing and planning for a trip or hike. It's one of the things I've learned to just let myself do and not feel bad about. People who don't know me or don't get it misinterpret it that I'm being paranoid or actually worried or catastrophizing about something, and I'm not. "Relax!" "This is how I relax!" No, I just really like nerding the fuck out and planning and sorting my kit and gear. And then I really like using that gear and being remarkably clever with it and having a really nice camp from which to relax and enjoy the scenery and environment.
It's no surprise that a lot of this leads to type III fun and sometimes even slight or not so slight mortal peril and... to be honest I kind of like that a little bit, too. I've mellowed out a lot but I've done a lot of gravity-defying and remarkably stupid things and should maybe be dead or at least paralyzed a few dozen times over.
I used to regularly taunt gravity and basic Newtonian physics and tell it to go take a flying fuck at the moon. I would honestly love to see a montage of all of my best wipeouts and crashes because it'd probably be several hours worth of material.
This list includes falling off of cliffs while free climbing and bouldering - or, once, playing paintball and diving the wrong way and ending up 40 feet down in the brush after thankfully bouncing off a rock with my ass instead of my bare head. Or surfing 20+ foot shorebreak waves, nearly drowning a dozen times in huge surf. Or being upside down and wrong side up on bicycles, skateboards, scooters and nearly anything with wheels, intentionally skateboarding off cliffs and other places you shouldn't skateboard. Or doing inadvisable things with fire. Or being chased by aggressive bees - I can go on for probably a whole book about the many ways I've nearly died that were just dumb and really risky.
In hindsight I'm really glad I did not get into, say, motocross or extreme downhill mountain biking because I would have eventually gone splat somewhere. Because it definitely wasn't skill or agility that ever saved me but just dumb luck, physical durability and fast healing times.
posted by loquacious at 12:26 PM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
My time aboard a US Navy submarine was Type II Fun, for sure. Pretty awful at the time, but nice to look back on as something I did. A little bit of rewarding too, because my time in the military is definitely the only reason I have the cushy job I have now.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:27 PM on June 24, 2019
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:27 PM on June 24, 2019
Purely vicarious fun. Fun while you're never doing it and never going to do it because no one should do that, but you enjoy watching or reading about someone else being fool enough to do it.
posted by pracowity at 12:30 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by pracowity at 12:30 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
What kind of fun is fun at the time but has dire consequences? E.g. playing sonic the hedgehog until 3am the night before university finals.
posted by biffa at 12:35 PM on June 24, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by biffa at 12:35 PM on June 24, 2019 [9 favorites]
I suffered no real harm, and when I slowed down to about 10 mph I put my boots down and stood up in one motion.
I want there to be video of this, both for the absurd badassery of this flourish, and also for the sheer joy of reversing the video to show a motorcyclist sort-of moonwalking, stunt falling backwards to the ground, and then accelerating headfirst to freeway speed.
posted by a halcyon day at 12:42 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I want there to be video of this, both for the absurd badassery of this flourish, and also for the sheer joy of reversing the video to show a motorcyclist sort-of moonwalking, stunt falling backwards to the ground, and then accelerating headfirst to freeway speed.
posted by a halcyon day at 12:42 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I am against fun.
posted by salt grass at 1:09 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by salt grass at 1:09 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
One thing missing in this discussion of type II fun, and a prerequisite: You have to think it's going to be fun before you do it. So my friends and I would never describe anything as Type II if there wasn't an expectation of fun to begin with. So, rewarding activities that aren't framed as fun don't make the cut. If you are actually being useful to other people (work, service, etc), that is really something else. I also think unexpected instant survival experiences, like the aforementioned save with the motorcycle crash, don't qualify either. It's over way too quick. Think slog, exhaustion, dread. Are you having a conversation with yourself about quitting this stupid whatever while your doing it? Type II. Do you go back and do it again? Type II.
posted by Carmody'sPrize at 1:19 PM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Carmody'sPrize at 1:19 PM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
Yeah I dunno, I've come to believe that "Type II fun" isn't really a thing. I have come to suspect that most of the people who, say, hike the Pacific Crest Trail or climb 14k-ers or ride their bike up Mt. Diablo etc. etc. actually enjoy the hard part, in the moment. As someone who doesn't enjoy the hard part in the moment (and doesn't enjoy it afterward, either - adrenaline makes me feel sick and like I'm certainly going to die) it's not any kind of fun, even if it is rewarding.
posted by muddgirl at 1:28 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 1:28 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Restating my comment more charitably, In my mind Type I fun is fun that doesn't hurt, and Type 2 fun is fun that hurts (mentally or physically). So it's not that Type 2 fun doesn't exist, but it is never fun for me personally and trying to explain "Well, it's fun *in retrospect*" is probably not accurate.
posted by muddgirl at 1:33 PM on June 24, 2019
posted by muddgirl at 1:33 PM on June 24, 2019
Sometimes you're willing to go through a lot of Type II "fun" to get to some really good Type I fun.
For instance, a few years ago I did a rim-to-rim hike of the Grand Canyon. Some parts of it were legitimately fun in their own right, but there were definitely parts that were unpleasant in the moment—and I don't believe anyone who has done that and says the entire thing is Type I fun. There's a whole lot of just hauling your ass over slightly-uncomfortably-tall-for-a-single-step water breaks and endless switchbacks with no shade, but... hot damn if the moments you stop and turn around aren't worth it. They're legitimate, extreme, Type I fun. Such that they make the mild #firstworldproblems unpleasantness, like the blistered feet and the toenail that decided it'd had it with my shit and decided to just fall off, worth it.
The same thing is true of, say triathlons that I've done: they're pretty grueling when you're doing it, but the exhilaration of having completed one, particularly with a team, and the celebration afterwards makes it all retrospectively worthwhile. But if I was the last person on earth, and everyone else was dead or raptured or whatever, I don't think I'd bother trying to do a Half Ironman just for the hell of it. (I'm not saying this is universally true, though; there are people I know who absolutely would.) Without anyone to share the success and celebration with, it would be hollow, and I wouldn't care enough to keep going through the unpleasantness.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:35 PM on June 24, 2019
For instance, a few years ago I did a rim-to-rim hike of the Grand Canyon. Some parts of it were legitimately fun in their own right, but there were definitely parts that were unpleasant in the moment—and I don't believe anyone who has done that and says the entire thing is Type I fun. There's a whole lot of just hauling your ass over slightly-uncomfortably-tall-for-a-single-step water breaks and endless switchbacks with no shade, but... hot damn if the moments you stop and turn around aren't worth it. They're legitimate, extreme, Type I fun. Such that they make the mild #firstworldproblems unpleasantness, like the blistered feet and the toenail that decided it'd had it with my shit and decided to just fall off, worth it.
The same thing is true of, say triathlons that I've done: they're pretty grueling when you're doing it, but the exhilaration of having completed one, particularly with a team, and the celebration afterwards makes it all retrospectively worthwhile. But if I was the last person on earth, and everyone else was dead or raptured or whatever, I don't think I'd bother trying to do a Half Ironman just for the hell of it. (I'm not saying this is universally true, though; there are people I know who absolutely would.) Without anyone to share the success and celebration with, it would be hollow, and I wouldn't care enough to keep going through the unpleasantness.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:35 PM on June 24, 2019
Type II fun is any sport I ever spent endless time practicing for and then playing, except track and field which was never any fun except laying on high jump mats having high school conversations. Even winning wasn't any fun because it was just a medal or ribbon given hours after you finished and your name mispronounced on a loudspeaker.
What kind of fun is fun at the time but has dire consequences? Yes! Good question! Or spending a day at the lake or beach with a sunburn to show for it for the next week.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:49 PM on June 24, 2019
What kind of fun is fun at the time but has dire consequences? Yes! Good question! Or spending a day at the lake or beach with a sunburn to show for it for the next week.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:49 PM on June 24, 2019
I am against fun.
posted by salt grass at 1:09 PM on June 24 [+] [!]
"I must not have fun.
Fun is the time-killer.
Fun is for children, customers, and the help.
I will forget fun. I will take a pass on it.
And while it is going, I will turn a blind eye toward it.
When fun is gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain—I, and my will to win.
Damn, I'm good."
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:50 PM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by salt grass at 1:09 PM on June 24 [+] [!]
"I must not have fun.
Fun is the time-killer.
Fun is for children, customers, and the help.
I will forget fun. I will take a pass on it.
And while it is going, I will turn a blind eye toward it.
When fun is gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain—I, and my will to win.
Damn, I'm good."
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:50 PM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
What kind of fun is fun at the time but has dire consequences?
The best kinds, obviously, else nobody would do them.
Sex, drugs, motorcycles.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:59 PM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
The best kinds, obviously, else nobody would do them.
Sex, drugs, motorcycles.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:59 PM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
Some type II fun would be type I if only you were more a bit more fit, physically or mentally. Hiking and biking up hills both come to mind, as far as physical fitness goes. I know that as I get more fit, the steepness and length of grade I can go up without pain increases, and I can just enjoy the ride. Lots difficult and frustrating to learn skills fall into that category, too.
posted by surlyben at 2:30 PM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 2:30 PM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
I am struggling to categorize so much of what I've done in relation to and at Burning Man here.
Like... struggling to keep a shade structure up in 70mph winds and 1' visibility should probably be higher than type one, but shit like that is what most makes me miss going, and I - and many of my friends - think it's fun at the moment most of the time.
It's possible we just have issues.
posted by flaterik at 2:59 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Like... struggling to keep a shade structure up in 70mph winds and 1' visibility should probably be higher than type one, but shit like that is what most makes me miss going, and I - and many of my friends - think it's fun at the moment most of the time.
It's possible we just have issues.
posted by flaterik at 2:59 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
What kind of fun is fun at the time but has dire consequences?
downhill skiing through vast oceans of powder snow down the steepest vertical pitches the BC mountains have to offer, high on acid.
Actually, the consequences weren't dire at all beyond realizing afterward that I'd effectively trashed both of my skis which, on sober reflection, led this then 21-year-old to conclude he had a damned serious decision to make. Either psychedelics or skiing. Not both.
The psychedelics won.
posted by philip-random at 3:49 PM on June 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
downhill skiing through vast oceans of powder snow down the steepest vertical pitches the BC mountains have to offer, high on acid.
Actually, the consequences weren't dire at all beyond realizing afterward that I'd effectively trashed both of my skis which, on sober reflection, led this then 21-year-old to conclude he had a damned serious decision to make. Either psychedelics or skiing. Not both.
The psychedelics won.
posted by philip-random at 3:49 PM on June 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
My fun goes up to eleven.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:57 PM on June 24, 2019
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:57 PM on June 24, 2019
I’m about to leave for Newcastle on a hiking trip and the tone my British friends use when they say “Newcastle???!” makes me suspect that will be Type 2 fun.
posted by frumiousb at 5:23 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by frumiousb at 5:23 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
Don't listen to them. When they went, I bet they brought coal.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:34 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:34 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
taxonomies are Type No Fun
posted by blackfly at 5:41 PM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by blackfly at 5:41 PM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
Philip-random, did anyone ever tell you that you can do those activities at different times?
posted by flaterik at 6:10 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by flaterik at 6:10 PM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
When they went, I bet they brought coal.
Tory post-industrial policy has made that saying outdated. There is now only one goal mine in all of North East England. Free market energy policy has made it likely that free fuel would be welcomed.
posted by biffa at 1:43 AM on June 25, 2019
Tory post-industrial policy has made that saying outdated. There is now only one goal mine in all of North East England. Free market energy policy has made it likely that free fuel would be welcomed.
posted by biffa at 1:43 AM on June 25, 2019
A line that I have enjoyed for decades comes from the movie Woodstock, at the end where they are interviewing residents of the town to ask their impression of the festival.
One guy says "It's kind of like being in the army. You're glad you done it, but you wouldn't necessarily want to do it again."
Sounds like type IIa, or aubilenon's Type III.
posted by MtDewd at 4:00 AM on June 25, 2019
One guy says "It's kind of like being in the army. You're glad you done it, but you wouldn't necessarily want to do it again."
Sounds like type IIa, or aubilenon's Type III.
posted by MtDewd at 4:00 AM on June 25, 2019
In May of 1998, headed for school in northern California on a 22-year-old motorcycle with a leaking head gasket, I made the mistake of heading north along 395 with the intention to cross the Sierra Nevada at Yosemite, oblivious that the pass was still under 30' of snow. Still on the east side of the mountains the fluid in my rear brake line froze due to some contamination. I stopped for a night at a small hotel and changed the fluid in the parking lot. The next morning I dressed in almost every scrap of clothing I had with me -- long underwear, flannel shirt, sweatshirt, sweatpants, jeans, leather pants, leather jacket, full rainsuit, gloves and about three pairs of socks crammed into engineer boots, and headed for a lower-elevation pass a bit further north that was suggested by the hotel proprietors -- California route 88, I think.
For the first half of that day the engine temperature needle never moved away from the C at the left end of its scale. I was hunched over to reduce my exposure to the wind, with my ankles hanging on the footpegs to put my toes behind the exhaust manifolds to catch some heat. The snow on either side of the road was a vertical wall cut by some huge plow, and in places chunks of those walls had collapsed into the road, making icy obstacle courses for me to pick my way through. The bike struggled with the thin, cold air and I was freezing and alone and terrified, but the joy I felt as I realized I was through the worst of it and would most likely survive was profound.
The cherry on top came when I stopped at a remote one-customer-per-hour gas station on the western slopes. The attendant looked me over and asked doubtfully, "Which direction did you come from?" Tire chains had been required to make that same drive the day before.
posted by jon1270 at 5:07 AM on June 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
For the first half of that day the engine temperature needle never moved away from the C at the left end of its scale. I was hunched over to reduce my exposure to the wind, with my ankles hanging on the footpegs to put my toes behind the exhaust manifolds to catch some heat. The snow on either side of the road was a vertical wall cut by some huge plow, and in places chunks of those walls had collapsed into the road, making icy obstacle courses for me to pick my way through. The bike struggled with the thin, cold air and I was freezing and alone and terrified, but the joy I felt as I realized I was through the worst of it and would most likely survive was profound.
The cherry on top came when I stopped at a remote one-customer-per-hour gas station on the western slopes. The attendant looked me over and asked doubtfully, "Which direction did you come from?" Tire chains had been required to make that same drive the day before.
posted by jon1270 at 5:07 AM on June 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
Type 2 fun, huh?
Like cold water (I mean really cold, like dry suit temperature) surfing. Man, that sucks. And the waves weren’t all that great either.
Or my last few gigs. Years of lessons and practice, getting the band together, further practice while navigating egos and personal oddities of the group, travel, schlepping the gear and set up, then playing what - by then - had become almost rote. Then get paid what amounted to a few beers.
Fun? Maybe a wry chuckle at my capacity for idiocy.
posted by sudogeek at 5:23 AM on June 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
Like cold water (I mean really cold, like dry suit temperature) surfing. Man, that sucks. And the waves weren’t all that great either.
Or my last few gigs. Years of lessons and practice, getting the band together, further practice while navigating egos and personal oddities of the group, travel, schlepping the gear and set up, then playing what - by then - had become almost rote. Then get paid what amounted to a few beers.
Fun? Maybe a wry chuckle at my capacity for idiocy.
posted by sudogeek at 5:23 AM on June 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
I’m really introverted, and on a solo vacation, currently in Belarus, which feels like tourism on hard setting. Yesterday, I went for a day trip to a castle outside Minsk on a local bus, got there ok, castle was ‘meh’, working how to get back to the city was all but impossible. Ended up on a overheated crowded dilapidated minibus with a lady’s shopping basket pressing on my ear. Oh and then the bus unexpectedly screeched to a halt on the city outskirts so I had a bonus metro trip which was easier at least. Actual information! On signs!
Has all been very type II. I’ll look back on it fondly, I’m sure.
posted by ElasticParrot at 5:42 AM on June 25, 2019
Has all been very type II. I’ll look back on it fondly, I’m sure.
posted by ElasticParrot at 5:42 AM on June 25, 2019
I came across a quote the other day (can't remember who by) that seems applicable here: "Oh, he doesn't want to be a novelist, he just wants to have written a novel..."
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 7:09 AM on June 25, 2019
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 7:09 AM on June 25, 2019
I think for something to be type 2 fun, it must start, and possibly end as type 1 fun. So for the people going out hiking, they know there's the reward of great sights, and their body probably appreciates the movement. However as one pushes the boundary of comfort, the body distracts one from the type 1. And when the discomfort is pushed away, or distracted (!), that action can become fun again in retrospect / retelling, or even a respite of type 2 switching briefly into type 1 for a bit.
A great thing is how easy some distractions can be. Twice during increasingly long endurance races I've been choked up, and had to fight back tears becuase of a hot (!) grilled cheese sandwich, or quesadilla at an aid station. The pain, and mental solitude had built up along the way. One's fighting the mental voice that's saying, "Fuck this, we'll do another race in better conditions, this can't be worth it. You know the mistakes you made, now stop and we'll do it right the next time." Then you finally hit an aid station and there's people, and they're smiling, and offering you warm, tasty food while asking what they can do for you to make things better, and your emotions slingshot in the other direction and it smacks you so nicely upside the head. And there's no thoughts of quitting, regardless of how much it hurts once you start to run again.
Well, at least no bad thoughts for another kilometer ...
posted by nobeagle at 8:09 AM on June 25, 2019
A great thing is how easy some distractions can be. Twice during increasingly long endurance races I've been choked up, and had to fight back tears becuase of a hot (!) grilled cheese sandwich, or quesadilla at an aid station. The pain, and mental solitude had built up along the way. One's fighting the mental voice that's saying, "Fuck this, we'll do another race in better conditions, this can't be worth it. You know the mistakes you made, now stop and we'll do it right the next time." Then you finally hit an aid station and there's people, and they're smiling, and offering you warm, tasty food while asking what they can do for you to make things better, and your emotions slingshot in the other direction and it smacks you so nicely upside the head. And there's no thoughts of quitting, regardless of how much it hurts once you start to run again.
Well, at least no bad thoughts for another kilometer ...
posted by nobeagle at 8:09 AM on June 25, 2019
I'm still holding off calling (or even thinking of) this type 2 stuff as fun.
People sometimes make the mistake of thinking that my writing fiction is fun. No, it isn't. What it is, is work. But it's work that, when done right leaves me feeling way more satisfied than any day job I've ever had. Which is not to say there aren't moments of fun, sometimes entire days when I'm in the zone and just cruising along. But the frustration and purposeful focus and sheer work that it took to get me to that zone -- that wasn't fun. And to think of it as such, for me feels masochistic.
posted by philip-random at 8:49 AM on June 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
People sometimes make the mistake of thinking that my writing fiction is fun. No, it isn't. What it is, is work. But it's work that, when done right leaves me feeling way more satisfied than any day job I've ever had. Which is not to say there aren't moments of fun, sometimes entire days when I'm in the zone and just cruising along. But the frustration and purposeful focus and sheer work that it took to get me to that zone -- that wasn't fun. And to think of it as such, for me feels masochistic.
posted by philip-random at 8:49 AM on June 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
Honestly, it's just the use of "fun" that bothers me.
If it were a taxonomy of "enjoyment", it would make sense:
Type I enjoyment: Fun
Type II enjoyment: Accomplishment
Type III enjoyment: Vicarious relief
I can 100% understand that different activities fall into different categories for people, and that sometimes the experience is a bit of multiple types. But as much as I enjoy gardening, it's not "fun," it's work that I'm happy to have planned and accomplished. It's not "Type II fun," it's a sense of accomplishment and pride.
posted by explosion at 10:36 AM on June 25, 2019 [3 favorites]
If it were a taxonomy of "enjoyment", it would make sense:
Type I enjoyment: Fun
Type II enjoyment: Accomplishment
Type III enjoyment: Vicarious relief
I can 100% understand that different activities fall into different categories for people, and that sometimes the experience is a bit of multiple types. But as much as I enjoy gardening, it's not "fun," it's work that I'm happy to have planned and accomplished. It's not "Type II fun," it's a sense of accomplishment and pride.
posted by explosion at 10:36 AM on June 25, 2019 [3 favorites]
Not sure how one even defines fun, I mean the things many other people think are fun don't necessarily fit my sense of it, even when I'm partaking in the same activities, while my idea of "fun", in the sense of something I look forward to doing and enjoy like sitting at a coffeeshop and reading wouldn't fit any definition of fun that requires some idea of unusually enjoyable action as it's something I do regularly and with little effort involved.
That there is no definition for fun in the moment that has has unpleasant lasting effect, the "It's all fun and games 'til someone gets hurt" kind or that of conflicting "fun", where one person's enjoyment is coming at another's expense too perhaps suggests they are thinking of fun in a pretty narrow, fun=good, sort of way. But that's understandable for their purpose, just leaves a lot open to question.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:56 AM on June 25, 2019
That there is no definition for fun in the moment that has has unpleasant lasting effect, the "It's all fun and games 'til someone gets hurt" kind or that of conflicting "fun", where one person's enjoyment is coming at another's expense too perhaps suggests they are thinking of fun in a pretty narrow, fun=good, sort of way. But that's understandable for their purpose, just leaves a lot open to question.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:56 AM on June 25, 2019
Just wait until I write up my new monologue on types 1, 2 and 3 of sex. (Or for that matter, of restaurants.)
posted by maxwelton at 12:36 PM on June 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by maxwelton at 12:36 PM on June 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
I was recently pondering motivations, and realized that some of the ways it breaks down for me are:
1. I want to do this thing.
2. I want to have done this thing. (a lot of this qualifies as type II)
posted by rmd1023 at 12:47 PM on June 25, 2019
1. I want to do this thing.
2. I want to have done this thing. (a lot of this qualifies as type II)
posted by rmd1023 at 12:47 PM on June 25, 2019
types 1, 2 and 3 of sex
Type 1: WHEEEEE!
Type 2: WHOA!
Type 3: WHA?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:58 PM on June 25, 2019 [3 favorites]
Type 1: WHEEEEE!
Type 2: WHOA!
Type 3: WHA?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:58 PM on June 25, 2019 [3 favorites]
Honestly, it's just the use of "fun" that bothers me.That's the joke, though. There you are, slogging through a pit of leeches under golf-ball-sized hail, telling yourselves about how much fun you're having.
If it were a taxonomy of "enjoyment", it would make sense...
posted by nebulawindphone at 1:05 PM on June 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
slogging through a pit of leeches
Leeches do indeed have a talent for turning Type I fun into Type III in the twinkling of an eyeball.
posted by flabdablet at 12:09 AM on June 26, 2019
Leeches do indeed have a talent for turning Type I fun into Type III in the twinkling of an eyeball.
posted by flabdablet at 12:09 AM on June 26, 2019
This post was super relevant to the experience I had at a metal show last night! Concert itself: Type I fun. Energetic music, enthusiastic crowd, fantastic energy from all the bands.
Mosh pits in general: Peak Type II fun. I'm 5'2", 140 pounds soaking wet, and (since I've been injured) pretty weak, so I fling myself in and carom off giant dudes like a pinball until I get tired. In the moment, getting jostled around and colliding with people isn't immediately fun - but the endorphins and the release of aggression to aggressive music are so worth it. There's also something to be said about the solidarity. if you fall down, you'll get picked up and pushed right back in; if you look like you're having a bad time, people will make sure you're okay. It's a way of connecting with other metal fans through consensual mutual aggression. (ymmv based on the band if you're a woman like i am but i digress)
My experience in the DevilDriver pit last night: Type III fun. Being short puts my face directly in the Elbow Zone of most of the pit guys. Most of the time, it isn't really a problem because they're pushing with their hands and actually being pretty mindful of little ones like me. Unfortunately, I was in the process of jumping in just as a tall guy brought his elbow back, and it cracked me directly in the nose. To his credit, he immediately noticed and made sure I was OK (I was, the endorphins were going so hard at that point I didn't even feel much pain). So I decided to wait out the rest of the song. Next song, I jump in and immediately get pushed nose-first into someone's back. Okay, that actually hurt, let's wait a bit. I stand at the edge of the pit trying to catch my breath and take another elbow to the face. And then I just quit, the pit was just not going to be kind to me that day. Before it could even be fun, it was unfun. A few bruises are par for the course, but hard pass on head/face injuries.
I'd also like to propose Type 2.5 fun, which is super fun at the moment with extreme regret afterwards. Includes: Substances that leave you with awful hangovers, e.g. MDMA; ill-advised hookups; eating an excessive amount of ice cream; buying useless nonsense on Amazon.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 7:52 AM on June 26, 2019
Mosh pits in general: Peak Type II fun. I'm 5'2", 140 pounds soaking wet, and (since I've been injured) pretty weak, so I fling myself in and carom off giant dudes like a pinball until I get tired. In the moment, getting jostled around and colliding with people isn't immediately fun - but the endorphins and the release of aggression to aggressive music are so worth it. There's also something to be said about the solidarity. if you fall down, you'll get picked up and pushed right back in; if you look like you're having a bad time, people will make sure you're okay. It's a way of connecting with other metal fans through consensual mutual aggression. (ymmv based on the band if you're a woman like i am but i digress)
My experience in the DevilDriver pit last night: Type III fun. Being short puts my face directly in the Elbow Zone of most of the pit guys. Most of the time, it isn't really a problem because they're pushing with their hands and actually being pretty mindful of little ones like me. Unfortunately, I was in the process of jumping in just as a tall guy brought his elbow back, and it cracked me directly in the nose. To his credit, he immediately noticed and made sure I was OK (I was, the endorphins were going so hard at that point I didn't even feel much pain). So I decided to wait out the rest of the song. Next song, I jump in and immediately get pushed nose-first into someone's back. Okay, that actually hurt, let's wait a bit. I stand at the edge of the pit trying to catch my breath and take another elbow to the face. And then I just quit, the pit was just not going to be kind to me that day. Before it could even be fun, it was unfun. A few bruises are par for the course, but hard pass on head/face injuries.
I'd also like to propose Type 2.5 fun, which is super fun at the moment with extreme regret afterwards. Includes: Substances that leave you with awful hangovers, e.g. MDMA; ill-advised hookups; eating an excessive amount of ice cream; buying useless nonsense on Amazon.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 7:52 AM on June 26, 2019
I was recently pondering motivations, and realized that some of the ways it breaks down for me are:
1. I want to do this thing.
2. I want to have done this thing. (a lot of this qualifies as type II)
Do you write for Harvey Birdman?
(they did a solid 10 minute skit) about 'that thing".
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:28 PM on June 26, 2019
1. I want to do this thing.
2. I want to have done this thing. (a lot of this qualifies as type II)
Do you write for Harvey Birdman?
(they did a solid 10 minute skit) about 'that thing".
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:28 PM on June 26, 2019
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In the end all we have is the stories; it really doesn't matter how you get them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:10 AM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]