July 3, 2002

7:20 AM

you worry meThis American Airlines pilot hits the nail on the head for me! Thus far the Muslim voices I hear in America--and they are precious few--always seem to get half way through condemniong this or that and then insert a "BUT" or "HOWEVER." This guy asks for a simple, straight-forward response.
posted by Postroad (105 comments total)

Obligatory reference to Timothy McVeigh.
posted by Sinner at 7:27 AM on July 3, 2002

So Muslim women cover up "like a shameless whore?"

Jeez, this whole piece, especially toward the end, sounds like Osama Bin Laden's doppelganger speaking.

Good stuff if you're a JDL stalwart, I suppose.
posted by kozad at 7:32 AM on July 3, 2002

A form whose members defended Johnny Cochran and O. J. Simpson after the latter butchered his wife and murdered an innocent friend.

This is where he lost me.
posted by ColdChef at 7:33 AM on July 3, 2002

There's nothing simple or straightforward about this commentary. For one, you could insert other terms for "Muslim" or "Arab-American" in many places in the commentary and have equally valid concerns:

"It matters little how good Islam SHOULD BE if large numbers of the world's Muslims interpret the teachings of Mohammed incorrectly and adhere to a degenerative form of the religion."

I have the very same questions about many people who calls themselves Christian.

"How do I differentiate between the true Arab-Muslim-Americans and the Arab-Muslims in our communities who are attending our schools, enjoying our parks, and living in OUR communities under the protection of OUR constitution, while they plot the next attack that will slaughter those very same good neighbors and children?"

And how do the groups he refers to differ from other wacko groups doing the very same thing? For instance, can anyone say "militia"?
posted by tippiedog at 7:35 AM on July 3, 2002

"I have a right to know whether or not you love America. Do you pledge allegiance to it's flag? Do you proudly display [it] in front of your house, or on your car?"

I have a feeling I would worry this guy too.
posted by Gilbert at 7:37 AM on July 3, 2002

A form whose members defended Johnny Cochran and O. J. Simpson after the latter butchered his wife and murdered an innocent friend

Has OJ confessed? The truth shall set you free OJ. hahaha

Well, obviously the guy is a bit irate. And he is speaking emotionally. Some of his statements are over the top, that shameless whore thing springs to mind.

But, he is allowed to have his opinion, and allowed to voice it. I can see where he is coming from a bit. Were there any muslims out in the streets waving flags and supporting America? Or did the media just show us all the "evil" muslims?
posted by a3matrix at 7:38 AM on July 3, 2002

Wow, I'm never flying American again. I'm surprised this moron can drive a car.

Do you pledge allegiance to it's flag? Do you proudly display [it] in front of your house, or on your car?

These meaningless rituals, of course, make one a true patriot. Anyone who has a flag in front of their house is legally bound not to be a terrorist. And you can be extra, extra sure they're on the level if that flag is on an American-Made Pickup Truck! Glad we cleared that up.

Do you pray in your many daily prayers that Allah will bless this nation, that He will protect and prosper it?

I hope he prospers it. Someone's got to!
posted by Sinner at 7:40 AM on July 3, 2002

This guy asks for a simple, straight-forward response.

Postroad, man, you worry me.

(I came in here to say pretty much what tippiedog's already said, so yayy tippiedog.)
posted by lia at 7:40 AM on July 3, 2002

I'm suspicious of the attribution to an A.A. pilot.

Googling "Captain John Maniscalco" hits only pages carrying this essay (with varying dates of publication), and this page which has a Police Captain John Maniscalco of Bend, Oregon.

"John Maniscalco", on the other hand, brings up a bunch of guys with that name. Good Lord, there's a lot of them. Odd.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:41 AM on July 3, 2002

Out and out racism. What a moron.
posted by salmacis at 7:42 AM on July 3, 2002

There's nothing simple or straightforward about this commentary.

Postroad didn't say that the commentary was simple or straightforward, he was referring to the type of response the author was requesting from Muslim-Americans.

And I have to say that since 9/11 I've seen lots of Muslim-Americans going out of their way to show support for their country. Lots of flags in Muslim-owned businesses, and lots of collection jars for the NYFD (not so much anymore, but definitely at first). I've noticed a lot of Muslim-Americans bending over backwards in fact to disassociate themselves from the more radicals interpreters of Islam, and I think it's pretty cool to see.
posted by Karl at 7:43 AM on July 3, 2002

There's a lot of ugliness in this screed, but it does make some basic points that resonate with MANY "normal" people.

As far as other "wacko" groups, tippiedog, I don't know of any other group that has successfully pulled off an attack on the scale of 9-11. The whole point for most people is this: this attack happened. It was perpetrated by militant members of another culture and religion. Thus, we should concentrate on the very real threat that exists now, and worry later about being evenhanded and equitable in our suspicions and vigilance.

On preview: Sinner - what does the strength of unpleasant convictions have to do with the technical ability to drive or fly?
posted by Irontom at 7:43 AM on July 3, 2002

Please don't post anything from right wing religious sites disguising as patriotic anymore.
posted by MaddCutty at 7:45 AM on July 3, 2002

but the scary thing is, there are several million people walking around who would gladly raise their beer and give forth a "hell yeah!" for what this guy has to say.
posted by mcsweetie at 7:45 AM on July 3, 2002

Please. These are the same people that think that the US is planning computer ID implants which is the sign of Satan's coming.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 7:46 AM on July 3, 2002

Irontom -

It's the combination of a ten-year old's thought processes with a three-year old's spelling that hasme wondering whether the guy should be handing out in-flight snacks, let alone trying to land a plane. Sure he makes "some points that resonate with normal people." You could argue that the Unabomer did, too, but I don't think I'd want him at the controls, either.
posted by Sinner at 7:50 AM on July 3, 2002

It was perpetrated by militant members of another culture and religion.

So was Pearl Harbor, and look what we did to all the Japanese Americans at the time. Damn shameful.

I work with a guy from Pakistan, and he was F#$king scared after 9/11. Afraid that people weren't able to differentiate between middle easterners. Made me ashamed to see his fear.

Ahh the trouble that stereotyping can get you in...
posted by a3matrix at 7:50 AM on July 3, 2002

hasme

Ha!

Sinner's Law: Any post attempting to criticize another's spelling will necessarily include at least one misspelled word.
posted by Sinner at 7:52 AM on July 3, 2002

Sinner - the "hasme" is beautiful. I suspect it was an accidental though.

tee-hee
posted by folktrash at 7:52 AM on July 3, 2002

"Hand them over to us, now!"

He's got a tree already ready at the end of runway 27L at DFW from which they could be swinging, eh?
posted by TuffAustin at 7:53 AM on July 3, 2002

I don't agree with it, but I'm glad postroad posted it and I read it. Gives me a different perspective.
posted by SpecialK at 7:54 AM on July 3, 2002

but the scary thing is, there are several million people walking around who would gladly raise their beer and give forth a "hell yeah!" for what this guy has to say.

Ahh, but that is the freedom provided by our country. You can voice your opinion. You do not have to agree with everyone.

I think this is coming from seeing issues in a black and white perspective. You are, or you aren't type of a thing.
posted by a3matrix at 7:54 AM on July 3, 2002

Were there any muslims out in the streets waving flags and supporting America? Or did the media just show us all the "evil" muslims?

My local media showed a nearby mosque full of people praying for the victims after Sept. 11th. I even think some local authorities went down to join in. I imagine the story was featured to prevent idiots from attacking the place, but the meeting was definitely sincere.
posted by mblandi at 7:54 AM on July 3, 2002

Why not, MaddCutty? You may not agree with it, but that doesn't mean it's not interesting to read. And if you're so far out "Left" that you find this stuff unstomachable, perhaps you should think of it as enemy intelligence instead. There is some stuff on this site that I consider real CRAP, but I read it partly because it gets me mad (I dunno why I like that...), and partly to see what the other half thinks.
posted by kahboom at 7:58 AM on July 3, 2002

Ahh, but that is the freedom provided by our country. You can voice your opinion. You do not have to agree with everyone.

Can we get past this argument? Yes, we have freedom of speech, that's a given. The point of a forum is to discuss opinions, not to stand back and applaud everyone's right to have them.
posted by Summer at 8:00 AM on July 3, 2002

Is it wrong that I think this guy wasn't entirely out of line?
posted by LinemanBear at 8:01 AM on July 3, 2002

Well, it's genuine, apparently, though it's not a surprise to find it coming at a dinner to celebrate Meir Kahane. And it's still a fucking troll.
posted by riviera at 8:04 AM on July 3, 2002

Sinner - what does the strength of unpleasant convictions have to do with the technical ability to drive or fly?

I'm not Sinner, but this pilot sounds like the sort of guy who'd crash a fully-laden jet into the great mosque at Mecca just to make a point.
posted by riviera at 8:07 AM on July 3, 2002

I've noticed a lot of Muslim-Americans bending over backwards in fact to disassociate themselves from the more radicals interpreters of Islam, and I think it's pretty cool to see.

Why is it cool to see people acting in self-protection to proactively head off the retributive mania of a bunch of dimwits? I think under the circumstances it would be stretching things a lot to assume that such actions were in any way correlated with their true feelings on the matter.
posted by rushmc at 8:07 AM on July 3, 2002

The point of a forum is to discuss opinions, not to stand back and applaud everyone's right to have them.

Hear, hear! Beautifully said.
posted by rushmc at 8:08 AM on July 3, 2002

{i need a drink, RyEeeeeight now}

"ease up on #3 Frank, i gotta whiz"

"...content of their character"

-MLK

to judge upon character one must know this character King spoke of. Do his words apply now?
posted by clavdivs at 8:09 AM on July 3, 2002

I'm suspicious of the attribution to an A.A. pilot.


Relax, he was drunk.

These are the same people that think that the US is planning computer ID implants which is the sign of Satan's coming.

Satan never left.

Is it wrong that I think this guy wasn't entirely out of line?


No. It's not right or wrong. That's what makes it an opinion.
posted by Hugh2d2 at 8:10 AM on July 3, 2002

Some weighty, thoughtful content on that site there, Postroad. I wonder if these folks get out from the compound much these days, what with the apocalypse all nigh and everything...

As for the article, he started to lose me with stuff like I have a right to know whether or not you love America. Great! Another armchair warrior, all bluster and symbolism with no substance, kicking ass with the remote in one hand and a Bud in the other. God help America. Is that too cynical for a Wednesday? I hope not.
posted by holycola at 8:14 AM on July 3, 2002

I've noticed a lot of Muslim-Americans bending over backwards in fact to disassociate themselves from the more radicals interpreters of Islam, and I think it's pretty cool to see.

I think it's pretty sad to see.
99,9999999999999999 % of the Arabs who happen to live in America, and the American citizens of Arab descent, are as horrified by 9-11 as anyone else. It's just that their ethnicity makes them a target of some suspicion -- I mean, I'm flying all the time and I'd feel like crap if I were Arab, I see the diffident looks they get in airports and on planes.
These guys feel the need to show they're not like Atta and his thugs, and probably show some extra patriotism just because of shame of their possible association with the 9-11 killers.
I'm sure they love America, but they probably wouldn't wrap themselves in the flag if the hijackers were Eskimos or Asians.
posted by matteo at 8:14 AM on July 3, 2002

I work with a guy from Pakistan, and he was F#$king scared after 9/11.
As well he should be. What this pilot notices in his plain, not-so-bright way, is the notable absence of public ass-kissing on the part of our Muslim populace, which however hypocritical such ass-kissing might be, is really called for as a public ritual in this situation. Arab-Muslim Americans should be roaming the streets on their bloody knees, begging forgiveness, screaming "death to Muslim extremists", festooning every inch of their bodies with cheap, patriotic trinkets, and swearing eternal fealty to the United States of America. Their people have committed an unspeakable monstrosity, and monstrous public expiation is required -- however unfair it may be to the individual Muslim Arab American. Here's a parallel: I, a white person, am still slobberingly apologetic and guilty over black slavery, despite the fact that it ended some 140 years ago, my personal ancestors were also slaves (serfs) living far from America at that time, and outside of general cultural privileges, slavery never benefited me as an individual. But it is appropriate that I should feel guilty about slavery. Slavery was a monstrous crime and it should be grovelingly apologized for even by people who just LOOK like its perpetrators. Then there's the Holocaust. For many years, almost the first words out of mouth of every young German I met was some kind of apology or sorrowful remark about the Holocaust -- even though these kids weren't even alive at the time. At first I thought it was weird. Then I realized, big crimes throw a wide net of guilt, and those of us who are unsure whether we are inside our outside of it should play it very carefully in our public pronouncements.
posted by Faze at 8:18 AM on July 3, 2002

I'd like to know what the stance of every Catholic in this country is on the pedophilia scandal.

I'd like to know what the stance of every right-to-life supporter is about clinic bombings and abortion doctor killings.

I'd like to know what the stance of every Jew is about Israel breaking international law with their West Bank settlements.

... The list could go on and on ad infinitum. This article is just lame racist rantings disguised as patriotism. Crap like this leads to embarassing episodes like the Japanese internment camps in WWII.
posted by mkultra at 8:22 AM on July 3, 2002

I want to know where every Arab-Muslim in this country stands and I think it is my right and the right of every true citizen of this country to demand it. A right paid for by the blood of thousands of my brothers and sisters who died protecting the very constitution that is protecting you and your family. I am pleading with you to let me know.

He's going to be pretty busy for the next few years interviewing every "Arab-Muslim." But it's certainly nice of him to plead. I mean, demand. I mean . . . uh.

Come on. This is racist swill.
posted by Skot at 8:22 AM on July 3, 2002

Faze, your analogy is way off-base. Slavery and the Holocaust (Godwin's law is now in effect) were vast, society-wide conspiracies (for lack of a better term). The best that can be said for most American Southerners or Germans during those times is that they gave tacit approval to those systems by living within them and not speaking up. 9/11 was perpetrated by a very very small group within the larger (bigger than either than either Germany or the U.S.) Muslim world.

What's your nationality? Can you claim that your culture's hands are absolutely clean? I feel an apology coming on...
posted by mkultra at 8:36 AM on July 3, 2002

Maybe instead of demanding so much from others, namely Arab-Americans, this author should demand more of himself. By taking some responsibility for his own misinformed prejudices, by educating himself about Islam, Arab culture, the immigrant experience, etc. he can calm his own anxiety and not jump to the conclusion that every Arab-American he sees is a potential terrorist. I am sick and tired of white, Christian so-called "true" Americans always placing the burden of proof/acceptance on non-white, non-Christian so-called "unassimilated" American citizens. We are all immigrants to this country, whether you just got off the boat or your family came on the Mayflower. The standard should not be "presumed un-american until proven otherwise."
posted by mariko at 8:37 AM on July 3, 2002

"I'm not Sinner, but this pilot sounds like the sort of guy who'd crash a fully-laden jet into the great mosque at Mecca just to make a point."

And what point would that be, riviera? I don't get that statement at all. I don't agree with this guy's opinion, either, but where do you get off making that sort of claim?
posted by pardonyou? at 8:37 AM on July 3, 2002

I think it's pretty sad.

I see your point, but these are divisive times, and I still think it's brave to ally yourself with a country that's provided you with opportunities, rather to blindly associate yourself with the actions of your homeland & religion. If I were them I'd be tempted to blend in with the scenery and not draw attention to myself.

But I also see what you mean about the fear factor: I'm sure many of them feel compelled to wrap themselves in the flag for fear of retribution.
posted by Karl at 8:49 AM on July 3, 2002

I, a white person, am still slobberingly apologetic and guilty over black slavery, despite the fact that it ended some 140 years ago, my personal ancestors were also slaves (serfs) living far from America at that time, and outside of general cultural privileges, slavery never benefited me as an individual.

Sounds like a personal problem to me. I don't know whether it is particularly fruitful to wish that others share this viewpoint. Just because you like being miserable for something you had nothing to do with doesn't mean everyone else does.
posted by kindall at 9:02 AM on July 3, 2002

The most important comment in this thread is from Riviera, who notes that this speech was given at a dinner for Meir Kahane. He is the closest thing to a Jewish Osama Bin Laden that exists in this world... his followers' group (presumably many of them were among those cheering this speech at the dinner) is considered a terrorist organization by Israel and the United States, and one of its members was Baruch Goldstein, who gunned down 30 Palestinians at a religious center in the West Bank. Other followers arranged the assassination of Yitzahk Rabin.

So you should think about the fact that this guy's speech was given basically to the Jewish version of Hamas.
posted by cell divide at 9:06 AM on July 3, 2002

So you should think about the fact that this guy's speech was given basically to the Jewish version of Hamas.

I still cherish the memory of a Postroad FPP about Arafat. Source: the Israeli Government's website.
posted by matteo at 9:11 AM on July 3, 2002

wondering whether the guy should be handing out in-flight snacks, let alone trying to land a plane.

Not to worry. Computers land the planes now. Pilots just watch the dials and 'supervise.'

99,9999999999999999 % of the Arabs who happen to live in America, and the American citizens of Arab descent, are as horrified by 9-11 as anyone else.

Wow! What a statistic. If there was even one Arab in America who wasn't horrified (recall, we know there were a few waiting on a rooftop with video equipment...) then there must be, like, way over a quadrillion arabs in America?
posted by plaino at 9:12 AM on July 3, 2002

LOL Faze

(I can't believe you bit that hook, kindall....)
posted by rushmc at 9:19 AM on July 3, 2002

Like it or not, there is a perception, right or wrong, that muslims in America, while they do whole-heartedly deplore what happened on 9/11, are less than enthusiastic about investigating what happens with the radical elements hiding in their own communities.

Somehow I don't think that name-calling is going to put an end to that, or even establish whether that perception is correct or not.
posted by clevershark at 9:23 AM on July 3, 2002

I don't want to be consumed by the same rage and hate and prejudice that has destroyed the soul of these terrorists.

Too late.
posted by rcade at 9:29 AM on July 3, 2002

I'm suspicious of the attribution to an A.A. pilot.

Googling "Captain John Maniscalco" hits only pages carrying this essay (with varying dates of publication), and this page which has a Police Captain John Maniscalco of Bend, Oregon.

You're right to be suspicious.

A Google search for "you worry me" shows that the piece originated on the Hyattesville Gazette on October 11, 2001 -- a month after the World Trade Center attacks. A search on that site shows that the original piece actually ran on October 12, and is signed Kevin Daly, Beltsville.

Now here's where things get interesting. Look at the two side-by-side. Interestingly enough, the editorial that appeared in the Gazette, while racist and misinformed, in not nearly as full of the invective that plagues the later work. In other words, someone took a relatively well-meaning piece and expanded its hatred and anti-Arab sentiments for a hardline audience, adding bigotry and emphasis to the original author's relatively straightforward question. Whether this happened at the stage where it was sent as e-mail or when it was published by 'Restoring America' remains to be seen.

On preview, what mariko said.
posted by dogmatic at 9:36 AM on July 3, 2002

I love how its "OUR" community when talking about Arabs. Like being a white christian rascist gives you a special deed over the entire country.
posted by skallas at 9:39 AM on July 3, 2002

...) then there must be, like, way over a quadrillion arabs in America?

yes! and they're coming to kick your ass, plaino! they also have video equipment! watch out for arab americans man! they're all Al Qaeda sleeper agents, all of them (especially the children -- who are actually really short 40 year old suicide bombers in disguise)

Repeat with me:
things like "99,9999999999999999 %", "I told you a million times", "you'll die laughing", "you just kill me, man" , etc
they are not to be taken literally. these are figures of speech.
OK?
Don't make me explain this a million times.
posted by matteo at 9:41 AM on July 3, 2002

LOL Faze

(I can't believe you bit that hook, kindall....)

Huh? Did I miss the sarcasm tag as well?
posted by Dick Paris at 9:44 AM on July 3, 2002

Nice work, dogmatic.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:59 AM on July 3, 2002

nice work dogmatic.


"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrowness." - Thich Nhat Hanh
posted by specialk420 at 9:59 AM on July 3, 2002

And what point would that be, riviera?

The point is that Irontom asked 'what does the strength of unpleasant convictions have to do with the technical ability to drive or fly?' I was saying that, if verified (which is now more doubtful than ever) this guy wasn't too far away from having the unpleasant convictions of a few notorious 'Arab-Muslims' who took flying lessons at the start of last year. (Or even the EgyptAir captain who downed his jet into the Atlantic.)
posted by riviera at 10:00 AM on July 3, 2002

matteo - i think it's because it's nintey-nine zillion percent, not nintey-nine point nine percent. (comma not decimal point)
posted by folktrash at 10:06 AM on July 3, 2002

What is sad, the piece states(to me), Why or for what have the Muslims gone into hiding, then talks about freedoms? puzzling is whose's?
posted by thomcatspike at 10:08 AM on July 3, 2002

the funniest/worst thing, is no one's moving on to the new posts...
posted by folktrash at 10:08 AM on July 3, 2002

Hell hang the guy, from the comments, sounds like he plagiarized.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:14 AM on July 3, 2002

folktrash I posted one sure to be pancaked.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:18 AM on July 3, 2002

Jesus.... Postroad, did you post that with the express purpose of starting a flame war? I can't see any other reason.

It's a flag-waving, jingoistic article written by an "American Airlines" pilot, although how the hell do we know that's true? The site isn't exactly a bipartisan news source, and it obviously has an agenda.

You should have know that this was going to do nothing but piss people off, and start a bigass flame war. You should really just go back to posting I/P threads and starting arguments on MetaTalk.
posted by SweetJesus at 10:32 AM on July 3, 2002

xenophobic, racist swill. And for someone, like Postroad, to put something up, that at it's core is most reminiscent of the language used to massacre the Jews during WWII...well, that's just bloody ironic, it is.

So, I take it from this little troll, that xenophobia is bad only when it's used against the Jews? Or is that it's only good when it's used against the Arabs?

Come on dude, you can do better than these guys to present your case that you hate swarthy, heathen, Allah-worshipping, ragheaded, 7-11 owning, couscous eating, camel jockeys, can't ya? Or are you really reduced to using these sources to back up your arguments?
posted by dejah420 at 10:35 AM on July 3, 2002

I'm pleased to see most people are dismissing this hate screed as the racist pap that it is. I didn't need to see this on a Wednesday morning. Yuck.
posted by donkeyschlong at 10:41 AM on July 3, 2002

folktrash I posted one sure to be pancaked.
awesome. is this the first use of pancake as a verb?
posted by espada at 10:45 AM on July 3, 2002

I have nothing to say at this point but if you locate "home" at the top of the posting you get this, which may lead you to some interesting conclusions:
RetoringAmerica.org
posted by Postroad at 10:49 AM on July 3, 2002

I just re-read the article, and got even more pissed off that this piece of racist fucking trash was even posted, never mind being posted as a request "for a simple, straight-forward response".

Let's take a look at this happy paragraph ->

Do you and your fellow Muslims hate us because our women proudly show their faces in public rather than cover up like a shameful whore? Do you and your fellow Muslims hate us because we drink wine with dinner, or celebrate Christmas? Do you and you fellow Muslims hate us because we have befriended Israel, the ONLY civilized nation in the entire middle-east? And if you and your fellow Muslims hate us, then why in the world are you even here? Are you here to take our money? Are you here to undermine our peace and stability? Are you here to destroy us? If so, I want you to leave. I want you to go back to your desert sandpit where women are treated like rats and dogs. I want you to take your religion, your friends, and your family back to your Islamic extremists, and STAY THERE! We will NEVER give in to your influence, your retarded mentality, your twisted, violent, intolerant religion. We will NEVER allow the attacks of September 11, or any others for that matter, to take away that which is so precious to us: Our rights under the greatest constitution in the world.

Let's see, in this paragraph he calls Muslim women whores, the entire middle Eastern population "uncivilized", their religion twisted, violent and intolerant, and their mentality retarded. Oh, and by the way, the author wants Muslims to leave the county because they don't love America.

How the FUCK could you have read that, and thought it was part of a simple, reasonable request for information. That paragraph was nothing but OVERT racism, disguised as some sort of "I Love America, and You Don't" sort of rhetoric. That paragraph, as well as that entire essay, is EXATCLY why Muslims don't like Americans. We're arrogant, self-serving, hateful, and scared of difference or change.

Well, I say we, but that's probably too broad of a generalization. I should say the author (and apparently Postroad) are arrogant, self-serving, hateful, and scared of difference or change.

I'm hard pressed to think of any single thing that I've read on the internet that's pissed me off more than this piece of fucking trash "article".
posted by SweetJesus at 10:52 AM on July 3, 2002

It would probably go against basic business sense for even the most shameful whore to "cover up."

Also, you'll want to strip out the colon at the end of Postroad's most recent link if you are eager to see a lot of foaming right-wing horseshit. "The United Nations wants to punch babies in the neck!"
posted by Skot at 11:00 AM on July 3, 2002

Let me recap for those of you who missed it:

Captain Jon Maniscalco gave this speech at a Meir Kahane fundraiser, where it was considered among the most "extreme" of those presented. Remember, Meir Kahane is a terrorist organization. [Thank-you, riviera.] It seems likely that the screed was adapted from a rather more moderate open letter in the Hyattesville Gazette. [Thank-you, dogmatic.]

[T]he author (and apparently Postroad) are arrogant, self-serving, hateful, and scared of difference or change.
This seems pretty clear.
posted by Marquis at 11:14 AM on July 3, 2002

"So I propose to you, as I proposed to the Department of Justice this morning, to recognize the value that Arab Americans bring to the effort, the effort to root out terror, the effort to make America more secure at home and more secure in its relationships abroad by protecting its interests in the Middle East. Value our ideas. Value the contribution that we can make to America. Value the role that we can play cooperatively in this effort to build a more secure future for our people. See us as full partners; we want to participate. We've asked before, we ask again. We want to be included because this struggle is ours as Americans. It's ours as well as anyone else's and we want to be full participants in it. Thank you very much. "

Thanks to dogmatic, for exposing how the folk process has transformed a letter to the editor into an urban legend. Even with Google at hand, it's easy to skip the process of verifying sources on the net.
posted by sheauga at 11:14 AM on July 3, 2002

Oh you're ever so right Postroad...it leads to things like:

Our Christian Nation and the Enemies Of Freedom...Communism/Socialism | Relativeism/Humanism Government Education/Physology | Modern Communism (misspellings theirs), and The Mark of the Beast is Now Law, oooh, or how about the American Heritage Research, which says that "We are convinced that nations are blessed only as they follow God’s plan for freedom."

Or how about their anti-Jewish screeds here, here, here, and here.

I'm just saying, as allies go...you didn't pick this one really well, didja?
posted by dejah420 at 11:17 AM on July 3, 2002

if you are eager to see a lot of foaming right-wing horseshit. "The United Nations wants to punch babies in the neck!"

And convict and incarcerate innocent American servicemen. Don't forget that one.
posted by rushmc at 11:26 AM on July 3, 2002

sejah420, you forgot to mention the part about how if the flag has gold fringe on it, you don't have to pay income tax. I always find that argument really compelling. Not as evidence for its own sake, but as evidence the teller is a complete whack-job.
posted by yhbc at 11:26 AM on July 3, 2002

Postroad - as long as Moslems remain the target of thinly-veiled hatred of the kind you have linked to today, there will ALWAYS be "buts" and "howevers".
posted by skylar at 11:30 AM on July 3, 2002

For all of you who claim that it's sad to see Muslim-Americans going out of their way to show their patriotism for fear of what might happen to them, I have to ask whether you take this position because you think it a reflection on the US or on humanity? Even Fisk got the crap beat out of him in Pakistan. It doesn't make it right but I would hate to think that people are cornering the US into standard that no other civilization has been able to meet.
posted by billman at 11:31 AM on July 3, 2002

Let's see, in this paragraph he calls Muslim women whores, the entire middle Eastern population "uncivilized", their religion twisted, violent and intolerant, and their mentality retarded. Oh, and by the way, the author wants Muslims to leave the county because they don't love America.

SweetJesus, I'm not about to defend this guy, but you misread the paragraph. The structure of the paragraph is a series of questions about (presumably) particular Muslims' intentions vis-a-vis the U.S. If those (not all) Muslims answer "yes," then the author has a series of things he wants to happen. If x then y. If you are here to destroy us, then I want you to leave. He is not talking about all Muslims -- just those that want to destroy us.

Like I said, I don't agree with the author, but I think he should be criticized based on what he actually said, not what someone thinks he said.
posted by pardonyou? at 11:32 AM on July 3, 2002

but I would hate to think that people are cornering the US into standard that no other civilization has been able to meet.

I would hate to think of anyone doing anything less. You measure yourself against your ideals, not your neighbors.
posted by rushmc at 11:36 AM on July 3, 2002

rushmc: And that's the point. It's very nice to think you won't do this or you won't do that but the reality is that people do. The question was whether people felt it was sad because it was Americans, or whether it was sad because as human beings, this is our tendency.
posted by billman at 11:41 AM on July 3, 2002

HOOOOOLLLLLLEEEEEEE COOOOOOOOWWWW !!!!!

This post has gone awry. Should be deleted to restore order.

I am out of here. Everyone have a nice long weekend.

Happy 4rth and all that.

Take a deep breath and relax.
posted by a3matrix at 11:45 AM on July 3, 2002

SweetJesus, I'm not about to defend this guy, but you misread the paragraph".

No, I didn't misread the paragraph. All the questions that are being asked deride or insult Islamic peoples. Asking if Muslims hate America because our women don't "dress like shameful whores" is insulting.

I really can't see how you missed the spite and anger in this paragraph.
posted by SweetJesus at 11:46 AM on July 3, 2002

I love when people respond to SweetJesus by starting with "SweetJesus,".
posted by mblandi at 11:47 AM on July 3, 2002

Which is another good reason I'm looking forward to seeing this guy start commenting.
posted by yhbc at 11:54 AM on July 3, 2002

yhbc, he's got nothing to say on this subject. He's a fuckin' Canadian.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:56 AM on July 3, 2002

Fuck. Him?
posted by ColdChef at 12:03 PM on July 3, 2002

"I really can't see how you missed the spite and anger in this paragraph."

I didn't miss it at all -- I see it clearly, and happily acknowledge it. All I'm saying is that you made incorrect statements about the piece, to wit (I can't believe I'm spending this much time on this tripe, but I made a point so I'm going to finish it):

1. "he calls Muslim women whores" Actually what he said was: "cover up like a shameful whore". The word "like" shows that this is a simile, not a statement of fact.

2. "...their religion twisted, violent and intolerant..." He actually said "your" twisted, violent and intolerant religion (the "your" again being the Muslim who answers "yes" to the question: "Are you here to destroy us?"). I think the proper interpretation of this sentence is that if you want to destroy us in the name of your religion, then that particular individual's religion is a twisted, violent and intolerant one. The way I read it, what he's talking about is a perversion of Islam, not the real thing. Framed thusly, I actually can't disagree with that statement. But maybe I'm giving him too much credit?

3. "Oh, and by the way, the author wants Muslims to leave the county because they don't love America." Again, not all Muslims, as you imply -- only those who want to destroy us. And not "because they don't love America," but because the particular Muslim who answers yes to his questions wants to destroy America.


posted by pardonyou? at 12:04 PM on July 3, 2002

Asking if Muslims hate America because our women don't "dress like shameful whores" is insulting.

SweetJesus, it sounds as if you're still missing the point. The author is making an analogy that if in this country our women covered themselves it would give an impression that they are "shameful whores", and so they don't . I'm (mostly) sure that the author knows Muslim women don't cover themselves out of shame in their home countries, but out of their traditions of modesty.

And like pardonyou? said, he's using a simile to make his point (which for the record I don't agree with, and I think it borders on hate speech; frankly it would've been more honest if he'd skipped the similes and just come out and said what he meant)
posted by Karl at 12:12 PM on July 3, 2002

Fuck. Him?

Fuck, yeah.
posted by yhbc at 12:20 PM on July 3, 2002

Fuck this bullshit, and the troll it road in on.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 12:33 PM on July 3, 2002

The author is making an analogy that if in this country our women covered themselves it would give an impression that they are "shameful whores", and so they don't .

Ahh, that would explain why all the american women I meet are naked.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 12:39 PM on July 3, 2002

::cough:: so, uh, which part of the country do you live in?
posted by Karl at 12:43 PM on July 3, 2002

Postroad - as long as Moslems remain the target of thinly-veiled hatred of the kind you have linked to today,

Thinly?
posted by matteo at 12:46 PM on July 3, 2002

The question was whether people felt it was sad because it was Americans, or whether it was sad because as human beings, this is our tendency.

Both, surely.

However, tendency is not destiny.
posted by rushmc at 12:52 PM on July 3, 2002

Ok, lets get this over with so I don't get fired from my job for spending too much time arguing politics on the internet.

1. "he calls Muslim women whores" Actually what he said was: "cover up like a shameful whore". The word "like" shows that this is a simile, not a statement of fact.

Ah, so he just says they just dress like shameful whores. I think semantics wise maybe you're right, but you need to read between the lines. He's obviously has a tremendous amount of hate in him towards Muslims.

2. "...their religion twisted, violent and intolerant..." He actually said "your" twisted, violent and intolerant religion (the "your" again being the Muslim who answers "yes" to the question: "Are you here to destroy us?"). I think the proper interpretation of this sentence is that if you want to destroy us in the name of your religion, then that particular individual's religion is a twisted, violent and intolerant one. The way I read it, what he's talking about is a perversion of Islam, not the real thing. Framed thusly, I actually can't disagree with that statement. But maybe I'm giving him too much credit?

In this sentence it's implied that if you don't support America, and happen to be Islamic, then your religion is twisted, violent and intolerant. I don't care if he was posing this as a question, because that's a cheap way to escape the obvious contempt he has for the Islamic religion. If the same thing was said about the Jewish, or the Christians, I think there would be a lot more of a fuss.

3. "Oh, and by the way, the author wants Muslims to leave the county because they don't love America." Again, not all Muslims, as you imply -- only those who want to destroy us. And not "because they don't love America," but because the particular Muslim who answers yes to his questions wants to destroy America.

I'm interpreting this not as a question to potential Arab-Muslims, but merely a rhetorical question that the author is posing to himself. He's thinking of reasons why Muslims are here. They're pretty much here to take our money and destroy us, according to him. I don't care if, grammatically, he could possibly be making another argument. I know exactly what he's inferring, and it's sick.

As for me, I think I'm done with this discussion. They track my internet access where I work, so I don't want to set off any bells and whistles.
posted by SweetJesus at 12:55 PM on July 3, 2002

Right on, rush.
posted by donkeyschlong at 12:56 PM on July 3, 2002

1. I did not intend this as a troll. I found the position of interest, to the point that I was curious how others would take it. 2. I went back to where it appeared (I hit home) because a number of readers wondered if the guy existed and I too got curious about this as a concern.
I did not expect the Israeli/arab issue raised since I specifically said a few weeks ago that I would not address this issue any longer. The issue raised here has noting to do with Israel/Arabs but with American views of Muslems (Arab or otherwise) after 9/11.
Andm, finally, I did not expect a character attack based on what I thought was an area worth exploring. If the post offensive, I regret having posted it
posted by Postroad at 1:14 PM on July 3, 2002

Postroad: you fool nobody with your protestations of lack of guile.

SweetJesus: I think you mean "imply": I know exactly what he's inferring, and it's sick.
posted by signal at 1:56 PM on July 3, 2002

your innocent act doesn't wash, pantload, i mean postroad. see how unconvincing that was?
posted by donkeyschlong at 2:30 PM on July 3, 2002

I found the position of interest, to the point that I was curious how others would take it

vs

This American Airlines pilot hits the nail on the head for me!

fight!
posted by inpHilltr8r at 2:49 PM on July 3, 2002

Postroad
The last time you apologised I applauded you. That'll be the last time I take shit for sushi. Go take a flight with the Captain.
posted by Zootoon at 3:58 PM on July 3, 2002

Wow. This is the scariest thing I've read in a little while. "This kind of hatred is not born overnight. One must coax it with rusty forceps from a womb of malcontent." --Brett Butler
posted by grrarrgh00 at 4:00 PM on July 3, 2002

What a fucking idiot. As if people around the world haven't been sitting up to notice how American foreign policy is screwing/killing/opressing them in their own native lands... "for 20 years"

The indignance with which this american sits up and complains that this kind of thing is wrong is nothing less than peurile. Grow the fuck up, jack, and tell it to the Chileans, the Kurds, the American Indians, the Vietnamese...

I'm really, really tired of these people who think that "hatred" and "evil" just sprout spontaneously.
posted by scarabic at 4:18 PM on July 3, 2002

I expect to see this kind of trash on FreeRepublic, not here.
posted by euphorb at 4:46 PM on July 3, 2002

Nice to see that hatred isn't going out of style... either in the little "essay", or in the discussion thread that followed it. Honestly, I'm really not singling anyone out here.
posted by clevershark at 9:59 PM on July 3, 2002

Agreed. This thread should be on Jerry Springer.
posted by Bixby23 at 12:55 AM on July 4, 2002

Oh dear, the typos!
posted by Quixoticlife at 6:01 AM on July 4, 2002

</discussion>
posted by Danelope at 7:02 AM on July 8, 2002