Sharing Eminem tracks on P2P?
July 9, 2002 5:14 PM Subscribe
Sharing Eminem tracks on P2P? The "artist" (and I use the term loosely here) describes, in his usual trailer-park eloquence, what he would like to do to you.
The real ones in need of a beating are those who made this tard a celebrity IMHO, but then we must take pity on those who know not what they do...
I want to meet that motherf***er and beat the shit out of him
He's just repeating what Dre tells him to say.
posted by betobeto at 5:29 PM on July 9, 2002
He's just repeating what Dre tells him to say.
posted by betobeto at 5:29 PM on July 9, 2002
Nice thread we've got here. Sigh.
posted by donkeyschlong at 5:30 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by donkeyschlong at 5:30 PM on July 9, 2002
Heh.
does he think only one person posted it? I'd like to see him take on a few thousand nerds.
Actualy his latest CD is pretty good, you can really hear the improvement in his music. It was definetly worth the time it took to download.
posted by delmoi at 5:31 PM on July 9, 2002
does he think only one person posted it? I'd like to see him take on a few thousand nerds.
Actualy his latest CD is pretty good, you can really hear the improvement in his music. It was definetly worth the time it took to download.
posted by delmoi at 5:31 PM on July 9, 2002
Couldn't help but think about this while reading that...
posted by toddshot at 5:40 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by toddshot at 5:40 PM on July 9, 2002
I heard one of the tracks from a limewire download, then ended up buying the disc, based on what I heard (I was going on a road trip and needed new CDs).
Sorry Mr. Mathers, you're right, the person that put your stuff online deserves to be beaten because he's taking money out of your pocket. And I promise to never download or buy your stuff again.
posted by mathowie at 5:45 PM on July 9, 2002
Sorry Mr. Mathers, you're right, the person that put your stuff online deserves to be beaten because he's taking money out of your pocket. And I promise to never download or buy your stuff again.
posted by mathowie at 5:45 PM on July 9, 2002
yeaaa... this CD is pretty good, i also enjoyed downloading it...
posted by yevge at 5:45 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by yevge at 5:45 PM on July 9, 2002
His new CD is brilliant. He has grown quite a bit as a rapper, and he is as Chris Rock said, "Pound for pound the best rapper out there" The rap game was missing with out him. YOu can't deny that he is musically talented, er wait, lyrically talented. Yes he does offend people, but look at people like Madonna or Marylon Manson, or even Denis Rodman for that matter. They do it for the purpose of getting the attention. Any publicity is good publicity. I actually bought this cd, first one in almost 3 years I bought, and it was worth all $13 that I paid for it.
posted by thebwit at 5:46 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by thebwit at 5:46 PM on July 9, 2002
He did a pretty good Jay and Silent Bob impression don't you think?
posted by Foaf at 5:50 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by Foaf at 5:50 PM on July 9, 2002
Personally, I admire his bluntness. In the world of RIAA double talk and insanity, I respect a guy who's just saying "HEY!! DON'T TAKE MY MUSIC WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT!!"
posted by frenetic at 5:56 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by frenetic at 5:56 PM on July 9, 2002
This is old news. From months ago.
That said, I downloaded his disc and I'm running out to buy it when I'm out of debt. His best work ever and, yes, I am a big fan.
There's a lot buried beneath the profane. Try looking.
posted by Dark Messiah at 5:56 PM on July 9, 2002
That said, I downloaded his disc and I'm running out to buy it when I'm out of debt. His best work ever and, yes, I am a big fan.
There's a lot buried beneath the profane. Try looking.
posted by Dark Messiah at 5:56 PM on July 9, 2002
it would rule if eminem won an oskar tho :) that's entertainment!
posted by kliuless at 5:59 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by kliuless at 5:59 PM on July 9, 2002
His new CD is brilliant.
De gustibus non disputandum est, I guess. Me, I'd rather plunge steel spikes into my ears. (Glad you like it, though.)
posted by chuq at 6:00 PM on July 9, 2002
De gustibus non disputandum est, I guess. Me, I'd rather plunge steel spikes into my ears. (Glad you like it, though.)
posted by chuq at 6:00 PM on July 9, 2002
Actualy, his label is experimenting with putting about a 10th of their catalog on-line. None of their better selling stuff though which I understand includes him. Still given that it's UMG's shit and not his shit, I'm not sure what he has to complain about.
By the way doesn't he pretty much hate everyone? I'd think the P2P networks would feel left out if he didn't include them with the likes of his ex-wife and fags and I'm sure Dre once they have their inevitable falling out.
posted by willnot at 6:01 PM on July 9, 2002
By the way doesn't he pretty much hate everyone? I'd think the P2P networks would feel left out if he didn't include them with the likes of his ex-wife and fags and I'm sure Dre once they have their inevitable falling out.
posted by willnot at 6:01 PM on July 9, 2002
Correction - I guess Universal just owns the imports. The story led me to believe otherwise. Interscope seems to own most of his albums. Does Universal own Interscope by any chance?
posted by willnot at 6:03 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by willnot at 6:03 PM on July 9, 2002
He apparently also hates bootlegs (Eminem vs. Britney, Eminem vs. the Smiths, etc).
I can only hope he lashes out at bootleggers on the next CD. That might go good mixed against something from "Joshua Tree."
posted by kurumi at 6:21 PM on July 9, 2002
I can only hope he lashes out at bootleggers on the next CD. That might go good mixed against something from "Joshua Tree."
posted by kurumi at 6:21 PM on July 9, 2002
The real ones in need of a beating are those who made this tard a celebrity IMHO
imho, the real ones in need of a beating are those who use the word 'tard' as an insult. preferably a beating administered by a gang of hockey-helmet-wearing developmentally disabled adults ('super tards', if you will).
i understand that you meant it in a light-hearted way, but using that word in any context demeans you and demeans tens of thousands of wonderful people far more than it demeans the real slim shady.
and spare me your cries of 'pc thought control'. calling someone a 'tard' communicates nothing meaningful, only hurtful feelings. plus, it perpetuates a mean-spirited stereotype and some absurdly out-of-date thinking. call eminem a cocksucker if you like, but calling him a 'tard' (and he is learning disabled, if i'm not mistaken) is no different than calling dr. king an 'uppity nigger'.
posted by mlang at 6:43 PM on July 9, 2002
imho, the real ones in need of a beating are those who use the word 'tard' as an insult. preferably a beating administered by a gang of hockey-helmet-wearing developmentally disabled adults ('super tards', if you will).
i understand that you meant it in a light-hearted way, but using that word in any context demeans you and demeans tens of thousands of wonderful people far more than it demeans the real slim shady.
and spare me your cries of 'pc thought control'. calling someone a 'tard' communicates nothing meaningful, only hurtful feelings. plus, it perpetuates a mean-spirited stereotype and some absurdly out-of-date thinking. call eminem a cocksucker if you like, but calling him a 'tard' (and he is learning disabled, if i'm not mistaken) is no different than calling dr. king an 'uppity nigger'.
posted by mlang at 6:43 PM on July 9, 2002
To those of you who would disparage Eminem, I'm trying to think of some good lyrics to post that might make his skills apparent to you. But there's too many to choose from, you don't like Eminem, and you probably (PROBABLY) don't like rap. So what's the point? No big deal. I don't like Beethoven.
Is there anybody here that is a connoisseur of rap who thinks Eminem's lyrics suck? I'd be much more interested in hearing from them, because this thread, while it purports to have something to do with file sharing is really just an excuse to bash Eminem.
posted by vito90 at 7:15 PM on July 9, 2002
Is there anybody here that is a connoisseur of rap who thinks Eminem's lyrics suck? I'd be much more interested in hearing from them, because this thread, while it purports to have something to do with file sharing is really just an excuse to bash Eminem.
posted by vito90 at 7:15 PM on July 9, 2002
nice loaded post, clevershark. I bet you were holding your breath waiting for the first outraged eminem fan. I see you've found a few already -- congrats!
posted by chrisege at 7:26 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by chrisege at 7:26 PM on July 9, 2002
Dark Messiah
There's a lot buried beneath the profane. Try looking.
Um, no thanks. If I want to hear the rantings of moronic white trash poseurs, I can just go down to the redneck bar that's a block from my house. It's cheaper than buying the CD.
Eminem actually proved to be Vanilla Ice. Discuss.
posted by mark13 at 7:37 PM on July 9, 2002
There's a lot buried beneath the profane. Try looking.
Um, no thanks. If I want to hear the rantings of moronic white trash poseurs, I can just go down to the redneck bar that's a block from my house. It's cheaper than buying the CD.
Eminem actually proved to be Vanilla Ice. Discuss.
posted by mark13 at 7:37 PM on July 9, 2002
I'm trying to think of some good lyrics to post that might make his skills apparent to you.
posted by willnot at 7:41 PM on July 9, 2002
Bitch I'ma kill you! You don't wanna fuck with meI won't deny that he or his producers can put together some catchy hooks, but a lyrical master (?)... Eye of the freaking beholder I guess.
Girls neither - you ain't nuttin but a slut to me
Bitch I'ma kill you! You ain't got the balls to beef
We ain't gon' never stop beefin I don't squash the beef
You better kill me! I'ma be another rapper dead
for poppin off at the mouth with shit I shouldn'ta said
But when they kill me - I'm bringin the world with me
Bitches too! You ain't nuttin but a girl to me
.. I said you don't, wanna fuck with Shady (cause why?)
Cause Shady, will fuckin kill you (ah-haha)
I said you don't, wanna fuck with Shady (why?)
Cause Shady, will fuckin kill you..
posted by willnot at 7:41 PM on July 9, 2002
Have you ever been hated or discriminated against?
I have.
I've been protested and demonstrated against.
Picket signs for my wicked rhymes,
look at the times.
Sick as the mind of the motherfuckin' [umm...unintelligible lyric here I haven't interpreted yet]
All this emotion, commotion,
runs deep as oceans exploding
Tempers flaring from parents,
just blow 'em off and keep going.
Not taking nothin' from no one,
give 'em hell long as I'm breathing
Kickin' ass in the morning
And taking names in the evening, leaving
'em with a taste as sour as vinegar in their mouth
See they can trigger me, but they'll never figure me out.
Look at me now, I bet you're probably sick of me now.
Ain't you mama?
I'm gonna make you look so ridiculous now...
Eminem actually proved to be Vanilla Ice. Discuss.
Careful, mark13, your complete, utter, total, absolute ignorance is showing.
Vanilla Ice was a tool of the industry, a white guy who was a marketer's dream with nothing to back it up. He said the right things and danced the right dances and sold a kazillion records.
Eminem does what he wants and says what he wants, and is the kind of person he wants to be. Unlike Vanilla Ice, however, he has talent. Lots of talent.
posted by vito90 at 7:55 PM on July 9, 2002
I have.
I've been protested and demonstrated against.
Picket signs for my wicked rhymes,
look at the times.
Sick as the mind of the motherfuckin' [umm...unintelligible lyric here I haven't interpreted yet]
All this emotion, commotion,
runs deep as oceans exploding
Tempers flaring from parents,
just blow 'em off and keep going.
Not taking nothin' from no one,
give 'em hell long as I'm breathing
Kickin' ass in the morning
And taking names in the evening, leaving
'em with a taste as sour as vinegar in their mouth
See they can trigger me, but they'll never figure me out.
Look at me now, I bet you're probably sick of me now.
Ain't you mama?
I'm gonna make you look so ridiculous now...
Eminem actually proved to be Vanilla Ice. Discuss.
Careful, mark13, your complete, utter, total, absolute ignorance is showing.
Vanilla Ice was a tool of the industry, a white guy who was a marketer's dream with nothing to back it up. He said the right things and danced the right dances and sold a kazillion records.
Eminem does what he wants and says what he wants, and is the kind of person he wants to be. Unlike Vanilla Ice, however, he has talent. Lots of talent.
posted by vito90 at 7:55 PM on July 9, 2002
mlang -- you are a navel-gazing twit. If you don't want to get offended I suggest you avoid the web, starting with blogs in general.
I guess I'll always be amazed at the things people publicly admit to liking, Eminem being one of them. De gustibus non disputandum est indeed...
posted by clevershark at 8:08 PM on July 9, 2002
I guess I'll always be amazed at the things people publicly admit to liking, Eminem being one of them. De gustibus non disputandum est indeed...
posted by clevershark at 8:08 PM on July 9, 2002
"Dylan can't sing."
"The Ramones only know four chords."
"Lou Reed wouldn't know the center of a pitch if it bit him on the ass."
"The Pixies were shrill, screaming, talentless monkeys."
"Eminem can't have talent, cause he's a rapper and a troublemaker."
I can't do what any of them do and, most likely, neither can you.
If you can't comprehend that just because you cannot appreciate something does not mean it is valueless, you are either hopelessly solipsistic or just plain nuts.
Although I guess I shouldn't use the term 'nuts' lest I disparage the many fine, upstanding psychotics living productive lives across this great land of ours.
posted by umberto at 8:11 PM on July 9, 2002
"The Ramones only know four chords."
"Lou Reed wouldn't know the center of a pitch if it bit him on the ass."
"The Pixies were shrill, screaming, talentless monkeys."
"Eminem can't have talent, cause he's a rapper and a troublemaker."
I can't do what any of them do and, most likely, neither can you.
If you can't comprehend that just because you cannot appreciate something does not mean it is valueless, you are either hopelessly solipsistic or just plain nuts.
Although I guess I shouldn't use the term 'nuts' lest I disparage the many fine, upstanding psychotics living productive lives across this great land of ours.
posted by umberto at 8:11 PM on July 9, 2002
Yeah, maybe his lyrics are clever, but they all seem to be about the same thing. "I'm so cool, and there are lots of people who don't understand me and try to censor me". So he's really only clever in one very specialized area. Don't they call that 'idiot savant'?
posted by toddshot at 8:12 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by toddshot at 8:12 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by bradth27 at 3:06 PM PST on June 29
WARNING: explicit ranting ahead.
Is it just me, or can Eminem's "Say Goodbye to Hollywood" chorus be interpreted as
"Sing About a Hollywood".
Because of the way he sings it, you can tell yourself what you want to hear, either "Say Goodbye to Hollywood" or "Sing About a Hollywood."
It's like those visual brain teasers where there's a picture of an old lady and a really young lady, and you see the one that you want to see, except that here it's auditory.
Just wanted to get that off my chest.
G-Dub motherfucker!
posted by ( .)(. ) at 8:14 PM on July 9, 2002
WARNING: explicit ranting ahead.
"Sing About a Hollywood".
Because of the way he sings it, you can tell yourself what you want to hear, either "Say Goodbye to Hollywood" or "Sing About a Hollywood."
It's like those visual brain teasers where there's a picture of an old lady and a really young lady, and you see the one that you want to see, except that here it's auditory.
Just wanted to get that off my chest.
G-Dub motherfucker!
posted by ( .)(. ) at 8:14 PM on July 9, 2002
Eminem does what he wants and says what he wants
Not for long! Fame has its price. That price is independence.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 8:21 PM on July 9, 2002
Not for long! Fame has its price. That price is independence.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 8:21 PM on July 9, 2002
i imagine that whoever put his tracks online to be downloaded had the same fuck the world mentality that eminem resonates... heh...
posted by lotsofno at 8:46 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by lotsofno at 8:46 PM on July 9, 2002
I don't think anyone made the argument that "Eminem can't have talent, cause he's a rapper and a troublemaker."
Somehow I don't think I'm the one being solipsistic/nuts here, umberto.
posted by clevershark at 8:55 PM on July 9, 2002
Somehow I don't think I'm the one being solipsistic/nuts here, umberto.
posted by clevershark at 8:55 PM on July 9, 2002
( .)(. ) -
Why is my name on your post? That was your post, from a few days back, correct?
Please, I don't want to be part of this thread.
heh.
posted by bradth27 at 9:18 PM on July 9, 2002
Why is my name on your post? That was your post, from a few days back, correct?
Please, I don't want to be part of this thread.
heh.
posted by bradth27 at 9:18 PM on July 9, 2002
Oh, and Vito90 --
One, two, three and I come with the wicked
style and you know that I'm from the wicked
crew, act like you knew
cos I got everybody jumpin to the voodoo
Pick it, wicked rhymes, picket signs
Ice Cube, Wicked...circa 1992
At least he's original. Say what you will about the guy, but until he tries to do more than sell rebellion to 14 year old suburbanite bonobo-istic young boys, I'll still be unimpressed.
posted by Ufez Jones at 9:54 PM on July 9, 2002
One, two, three and I come with the wicked
style and you know that I'm from the wicked
crew, act like you knew
cos I got everybody jumpin to the voodoo
Pick it, wicked rhymes, picket signs
Ice Cube, Wicked...circa 1992
At least he's original. Say what you will about the guy, but until he tries to do more than sell rebellion to 14 year old suburbanite bonobo-istic young boys, I'll still be unimpressed.
posted by Ufez Jones at 9:54 PM on July 9, 2002
bradth, yeah I copy and pasted that from the "under god" thread. My sincere apologies for not checking before posting here.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 9:57 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by ( .)(. ) at 9:57 PM on July 9, 2002
my twocomparisence:
em finally found something to sing about. it's kinda how i feel about the beatles. the early stuff, is catchy as hell, but it's not really about anything. but when they started finding things to sing about, oh man.
there's some quote about the beatles that i'm reminded of, somethig to the effect of 'they have a beautiful way of making declarative sentences.' after hearing that, man does it ring true. they are saying something. listen to music, the commodity, on the radio now, and notice how many of the lyrics are questions.
what the hell's my point? i dunno, but on this album, em seems to finally have found something to take that chainsaw to. *sigh*
upon my first listen i thought i caught two disctinct, yet subtle, nine eleven references. as i've listened many more times, and grown to love this album, i see that there are many more; but not in the shocking way you might think. only em fans will know what i mean by: he's saying what he's not saying, but saying it at the same time.
you would have to listen to hear and appreciate the genuis at work, which for him isn't work so it's easy to mis-interpret it at first. cause when he speaks, it's tonge and cheek.
he wasn't this guy we spent all these hours crafting these rhymes to piss people off. he just spits the shit out.
music is like magic. there's the certain feeling you get when you reel and you spit and people are feeling your shit. this is your moment.
when i first read all these replies i felt myself getting angry. but you know what? some people don't like the beatles. i know it's hard to believe, but some people don't like them.
he joke's when he says he's the best, in the booth, but a lot of truth is said in jest.
i could go on and on, yes... even more, but i won't.
posted by folktrash at 10:03 PM on July 9, 2002
em finally found something to sing about. it's kinda how i feel about the beatles. the early stuff, is catchy as hell, but it's not really about anything. but when they started finding things to sing about, oh man.
there's some quote about the beatles that i'm reminded of, somethig to the effect of 'they have a beautiful way of making declarative sentences.' after hearing that, man does it ring true. they are saying something. listen to music, the commodity, on the radio now, and notice how many of the lyrics are questions.
what the hell's my point? i dunno, but on this album, em seems to finally have found something to take that chainsaw to. *sigh*
upon my first listen i thought i caught two disctinct, yet subtle, nine eleven references. as i've listened many more times, and grown to love this album, i see that there are many more; but not in the shocking way you might think. only em fans will know what i mean by: he's saying what he's not saying, but saying it at the same time.
you would have to listen to hear and appreciate the genuis at work, which for him isn't work so it's easy to mis-interpret it at first. cause when he speaks, it's tonge and cheek.
he wasn't this guy we spent all these hours crafting these rhymes to piss people off. he just spits the shit out.
music is like magic. there's the certain feeling you get when you reel and you spit and people are feeling your shit. this is your moment.
when i first read all these replies i felt myself getting angry. but you know what? some people don't like the beatles. i know it's hard to believe, but some people don't like them.
he joke's when he says he's the best, in the booth, but a lot of truth is said in jest.
i could go on and on, yes... even more, but i won't.
posted by folktrash at 10:03 PM on July 9, 2002
one last thing (i finally read the original quote); far be it from me to assume that the media would quote anyone out of context, but i don't think em was talking about his music 'being online' just generally.
the eminem show was quite eagerly awaited; gross expected sales people. and i believe his album, this album, was the first of a new kind of leaking online.
the release date had to get pushed back more than any other album because it was, essentially, released on file sharing networks way before it was scheduled to be released in the stores.
on preview... um satapher?
and yeah i downloaded it, and yeah, i bought it.
posted by folktrash at 10:17 PM on July 9, 2002
the eminem show was quite eagerly awaited; gross expected sales people. and i believe his album, this album, was the first of a new kind of leaking online.
the release date had to get pushed back more than any other album because it was, essentially, released on file sharing networks way before it was scheduled to be released in the stores.
on preview... um satapher?
and yeah i downloaded it, and yeah, i bought it.
posted by folktrash at 10:17 PM on July 9, 2002
I'll be 41 in four months. (*gulp*) If I had a teenaged kid and he or she were bringing Eminem records home, I'd probably spew as much vitriol as my father spat at me over some of the stuff I brought home (the ones he really hated were Neil Young and Bruce Springsteen).
Nothing has ever made me feel as old as this does.
posted by chuq at 10:46 PM on July 9, 2002
Nothing has ever made me feel as old as this does.
posted by chuq at 10:46 PM on July 9, 2002
HE seems a double-sided virtue...but nonetheless post terrorism talent in disguise!
posted by Kodel at 11:14 PM on July 9, 2002
posted by Kodel at 11:14 PM on July 9, 2002
Eminem actually proved to be Vanilla Ice. Discuss.
What, because Vanilla Ice had three multi-platinum albums, several top-ten hits, critical acclaim, the respect of his peers, and a loyal fan base? you're right, i see several striking similarities.
oh, no... i get it. it's cause they're both white! and we all know white rappers are nothing more than a novelty or joke! hell, you don't even have to listen to any rap music to know that!
posted by chrisege at 11:45 PM on July 9, 2002
What, because Vanilla Ice had three multi-platinum albums, several top-ten hits, critical acclaim, the respect of his peers, and a loyal fan base? you're right, i see several striking similarities.
oh, no... i get it. it's cause they're both white! and we all know white rappers are nothing more than a novelty or joke! hell, you don't even have to listen to any rap music to know that!
posted by chrisege at 11:45 PM on July 9, 2002
clevershark-
I don't think anyone made the argument that "Eminem can't have talent, cause he's a rapper and a troublemaker."
Well, no one ever said any of those other things about the Pixies and Ramones, either. Exactly. It was are-they-really-artistic license, I guess. But I've heard them all implied. And some of the negative reactions above sound like typical "you kids and your noisy music" that I have been hearing since I was a kid. Which, by the way, is not recently. I'm older than chuq, for the record.
And by "negative reactions" I mean you, with your quotes around "artist." Are you expressing a lack of delight with rap in general, which is what I got out of that, or with his performance of it in particular? Or do you dispute that someone unpleasant can be an artist? I think there are an awful lot of artists you would have to demote, then. A lot of pure pricks in the creative fields.
I agree with the poster above who wanted to know if anyone who was actually interested in rap had an artistic judgement to make about Eminem. I know I don't like much rap, but I do like his stuff. I don't know enough about it to analyze it or have anything informed to say, except that I think he's talented and would have no problem with referring to him as an artist.
posted by umberto at 11:55 PM on July 9, 2002
I don't think anyone made the argument that "Eminem can't have talent, cause he's a rapper and a troublemaker."
Well, no one ever said any of those other things about the Pixies and Ramones, either. Exactly. It was are-they-really-artistic license, I guess. But I've heard them all implied. And some of the negative reactions above sound like typical "you kids and your noisy music" that I have been hearing since I was a kid. Which, by the way, is not recently. I'm older than chuq, for the record.
And by "negative reactions" I mean you, with your quotes around "artist." Are you expressing a lack of delight with rap in general, which is what I got out of that, or with his performance of it in particular? Or do you dispute that someone unpleasant can be an artist? I think there are an awful lot of artists you would have to demote, then. A lot of pure pricks in the creative fields.
I agree with the poster above who wanted to know if anyone who was actually interested in rap had an artistic judgement to make about Eminem. I know I don't like much rap, but I do like his stuff. I don't know enough about it to analyze it or have anything informed to say, except that I think he's talented and would have no problem with referring to him as an artist.
posted by umberto at 11:55 PM on July 9, 2002
"Dylan can't sing."
"The Ramones only know four chords."
"Lou Reed wouldn't know the center of a pitch if it bit him on the ass."
"The Pixies were shrill, screaming, talentless monkeys."
"Eminem can't have talent, cause he's a rapper and a troublemaker."
Well, four outta five ain't a bad track record. (Now y'all can fight over who I think the exception is.)
posted by kindall at 12:29 AM on July 10, 2002
"The Ramones only know four chords."
"Lou Reed wouldn't know the center of a pitch if it bit him on the ass."
"The Pixies were shrill, screaming, talentless monkeys."
"Eminem can't have talent, cause he's a rapper and a troublemaker."
Well, four outta five ain't a bad track record. (Now y'all can fight over who I think the exception is.)
posted by kindall at 12:29 AM on July 10, 2002
tee hee. super tard. that's awesome.
eminem? lyrical master? yeah. i dig when he sings about beating up homosexuals and women. that's really cool.
posted by jcterminal at 12:52 AM on July 10, 2002
eminem? lyrical master? yeah. i dig when he sings about beating up homosexuals and women. that's really cool.
posted by jcterminal at 12:52 AM on July 10, 2002
There's a lot buried beneath the profane. Try looking.
Yes, and I suppose you enjoy diving into the cesspool to "win" the penny that your baby sister flushed down the toilet.
Thanks, but I'll take my talent straight-up, without the pathetic attempts to seem tough and hateful.
40-some chuq: ah, but did Neil and Bruce fill their music with messages of violence, hatred, and vulgarity? Would you permit Eminem to take a handful of shit and sling it in your kid's face? Why would you permit Eminem to sling it in his ears -- "Bitch I'ma kill you! You don't wanna fuck with me. Girls neither - you ain't nuttin but a slut to me"?
IMO, what you put into your mind and body are gonna turn out to be what you get out of your mind and body. Stuff your face with junk food, you're gonna end up with a junk food body, all obese and unhealthy. Stuff your head with junk music, you're gonna end up with a brain filled with distorted ideas and perceptions.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:00 AM on July 10, 2002
Yes, and I suppose you enjoy diving into the cesspool to "win" the penny that your baby sister flushed down the toilet.
Thanks, but I'll take my talent straight-up, without the pathetic attempts to seem tough and hateful.
40-some chuq: ah, but did Neil and Bruce fill their music with messages of violence, hatred, and vulgarity? Would you permit Eminem to take a handful of shit and sling it in your kid's face? Why would you permit Eminem to sling it in his ears -- "Bitch I'ma kill you! You don't wanna fuck with me. Girls neither - you ain't nuttin but a slut to me"?
IMO, what you put into your mind and body are gonna turn out to be what you get out of your mind and body. Stuff your face with junk food, you're gonna end up with a junk food body, all obese and unhealthy. Stuff your head with junk music, you're gonna end up with a brain filled with distorted ideas and perceptions.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:00 AM on July 10, 2002
the release date had to get pushed back more than any other album because it was, essentially, released on file sharing networks way before it was scheduled to be released in the stores.
Surely that's a case for moving the official release forwards? Something a little disingenuous here...
posted by inpHilltr8r at 1:06 AM on July 10, 2002
Surely that's a case for moving the official release forwards? Something a little disingenuous here...
posted by inpHilltr8r at 1:06 AM on July 10, 2002
Stuff your head with junk music, you're gonna end up with a brain filled with distorted ideas and perceptions.
Five fresh fish, are you offering to be the arbiter of what music is junk for the rest of us? Because not only are we too stupid and ignorant to make that decision on our own, but we are also too stupid and ignorant to listen to the lyrics and disregard what they might be telling us to do?
Did you think Marilyn Manson led to Columbine?
Oddly enough, Eminem sung about just this in "I never knew I"
I never knew I
was gonna get this big
I never knew I
would have affected this kid
I never knew I
Would get him to slit his wrists
I never knew I
would get him to hit this bitch.
So who's bringing the guns in this country?
I couldn't sneak a plastic pellet gun through customs over at London
And last week I seen this Schwarzenegger movie
where he's shooting all sorts of these motherfuckers
with an uzi.
I see these three little kids in the front row.
Screamin' "go" with the 17 year old uncle.
I'm like, "guidance"?
Ain't they got the same moms and dads who got mad
when I asked if they like violence?
Told me that my tape taught 'em to swear
But what about the makeup you allow your 12 year old daughter to wear?
And tell me that your son doesn't know any cuss words
When his bus driver's screaming at him, fuckin him up worse.
You know, whats the point? I'm not going to convince any of you, because you have made up your mind. You don't like him. There's room for all kinds. But don't come in here and criticize the music and the lyrics if you haven't listened to it!
Also to toddshot, who said all Eminem's lyrics are about the same thing, how cool he is. This is the history of rap. Rakim (the solo controller), Run DMC , the NWA crew, LLCool J...its all about one-upping the other guy
posted by vito90 at 6:01 AM on July 10, 2002
Five fresh fish, are you offering to be the arbiter of what music is junk for the rest of us? Because not only are we too stupid and ignorant to make that decision on our own, but we are also too stupid and ignorant to listen to the lyrics and disregard what they might be telling us to do?
Did you think Marilyn Manson led to Columbine?
Oddly enough, Eminem sung about just this in "I never knew I"
I never knew I
was gonna get this big
I never knew I
would have affected this kid
I never knew I
Would get him to slit his wrists
I never knew I
would get him to hit this bitch.
So who's bringing the guns in this country?
I couldn't sneak a plastic pellet gun through customs over at London
And last week I seen this Schwarzenegger movie
where he's shooting all sorts of these motherfuckers
with an uzi.
I see these three little kids in the front row.
Screamin' "go" with the 17 year old uncle.
I'm like, "guidance"?
Ain't they got the same moms and dads who got mad
when I asked if they like violence?
Told me that my tape taught 'em to swear
But what about the makeup you allow your 12 year old daughter to wear?
And tell me that your son doesn't know any cuss words
When his bus driver's screaming at him, fuckin him up worse.
You know, whats the point? I'm not going to convince any of you, because you have made up your mind. You don't like him. There's room for all kinds. But don't come in here and criticize the music and the lyrics if you haven't listened to it!
Also to toddshot, who said all Eminem's lyrics are about the same thing, how cool he is. This is the history of rap. Rakim (the solo controller), Run DMC , the NWA crew, LLCool J...its all about one-upping the other guy
posted by vito90 at 6:01 AM on July 10, 2002
i'm an avid supporter of hip-hop, but eminem just isn't my thing... he's great to listen every now and then solely (in my opinion) for his ability to "make words rhyme" better than anyone else i've heard in a while, but i see little more reason then that. he's too much of a battle MC in the bulk of songs I've heard (and yes, i know he has some more focused tracks.). he's a good rapper i suppose, but what really separates him from other battle MCs such as Canibus or Chino XL, aside from having better control with his rhyming (albeit being more scatterbrained with his lines)? eminem's funny, but so is Wordsworth. where i don't connect i guess is that i couldn't see myself finding his music "personal." then again, i suppose not many people could understand my thing for tupac, or dashboard, or difranco...
posted by lotsofno at 6:34 AM on July 10, 2002
posted by lotsofno at 6:34 AM on July 10, 2002
Most of the people I know who are into hip-hop appreciate Eminem--if for no other reason than because he has the Doctor Dre seal of approval.
On the other hand, the facts that he's a talented MC and a decent producer don't excuse some of his lyrics. When I buy a CD, I directly support the artist and I implicitly support his or her art. So even though I wouldn't switch stations if Eminem came on the radio, I prefer to spend my money (and time) on hip-hop from talented, introspective artists like Atmosphere, Sage Francis, Aesop Rock, and El-P. (BTW, if you're on my MeFi Swap II list, this comment could be considered foreshadowing.)
posted by subgenius at 6:40 AM on July 10, 2002
On the other hand, the facts that he's a talented MC and a decent producer don't excuse some of his lyrics. When I buy a CD, I directly support the artist and I implicitly support his or her art. So even though I wouldn't switch stations if Eminem came on the radio, I prefer to spend my money (and time) on hip-hop from talented, introspective artists like Atmosphere, Sage Francis, Aesop Rock, and El-P. (BTW, if you're on my MeFi Swap II list, this comment could be considered foreshadowing.)
posted by subgenius at 6:40 AM on July 10, 2002
I agree with lotsofno. It's puerile to suggest, vito90, that those who won't put up with Eminem's misogyny and gay-bashing feel the way they do out of an ignorance of the genre. Marshall's lyrical prowess in no way justifies his hatred, nor does his "hey-hey, it's just a personality! now watch, hailie, as i drown your mother in the ocean!". It's alarming to see how Eminem's technical abilities have mingled with counterculture chic to create a hate-speech it's okay to like.
"His bigotry isn't incidental or stupid, as his progressive champions claim. It's central and knowing—and unless it's examined, it will be free to operate. Not that this music makes men rape any more than the Klan-lionizing imagery in Birth of a Nation creates racists. The real effect is less personal than systematic. Why is it considered proper to speak out against racism and anti-Semitism but not against sexism and homophobia?" -- Richard Goldstein, The Village Voice
It may be because Eminem is white. For years, certain MCs have attacked women, gays, etc. - but so far, the popular ones have all been black. When it's scary thugs in the alley, everyone goes - "Hey! That's fucked up!". With Eminem however, the response is different: "Hey! He's white! So it's sort of tongue-and-cheek! He's smart 'n stuff. See how he made that witty rhyme about fags? Ha ha ha."
There are hundreds of skillful hip hop artists who aren't knee-deep in discriminatory shit - who are genuinely talented, and artistically relevant. Eminem doesn't hold a candle to Blackalicious or De La Soul.
posted by Marquis at 7:02 AM on July 10, 2002
"His bigotry isn't incidental or stupid, as his progressive champions claim. It's central and knowing—and unless it's examined, it will be free to operate. Not that this music makes men rape any more than the Klan-lionizing imagery in Birth of a Nation creates racists. The real effect is less personal than systematic. Why is it considered proper to speak out against racism and anti-Semitism but not against sexism and homophobia?" -- Richard Goldstein, The Village Voice
It may be because Eminem is white. For years, certain MCs have attacked women, gays, etc. - but so far, the popular ones have all been black. When it's scary thugs in the alley, everyone goes - "Hey! That's fucked up!". With Eminem however, the response is different: "Hey! He's white! So it's sort of tongue-and-cheek! He's smart 'n stuff. See how he made that witty rhyme about fags? Ha ha ha."
There are hundreds of skillful hip hop artists who aren't knee-deep in discriminatory shit - who are genuinely talented, and artistically relevant. Eminem doesn't hold a candle to Blackalicious or De La Soul.
posted by Marquis at 7:02 AM on July 10, 2002
umberto -- making tunes about Vicodin, or how your mom is a doped-up biatch, or how you hate "fags", hardly requires talent. But you're right in that it's not my cup of tea.
If I want my music filled to the brim with hatred for everything and everyone, I'll start looking into some of those white supremacist bands... not that it's gonna happen.
Eminem is largely adolescent music. It's much less about the music itself than it is about testing the boundaries of good taste and encouraging this sort of little flame war, because heck, no publicity is bad publicity. What does it bring to the hip-hop world? Very little, except a breaking of the "no mothers" boundary. Rap in general has been full of odes to dope and songs about 'skanks and hos' since the 80's. It WAS, however, missing some caucasian firebrand who didn't have the sort of silly image obsession Vanilla Ice portrayed, and I guess that's where Marshall Mathers comes in, yet another commodity in a world full of commodities.
posted by clevershark at 7:34 AM on July 10, 2002
If I want my music filled to the brim with hatred for everything and everyone, I'll start looking into some of those white supremacist bands... not that it's gonna happen.
Eminem is largely adolescent music. It's much less about the music itself than it is about testing the boundaries of good taste and encouraging this sort of little flame war, because heck, no publicity is bad publicity. What does it bring to the hip-hop world? Very little, except a breaking of the "no mothers" boundary. Rap in general has been full of odes to dope and songs about 'skanks and hos' since the 80's. It WAS, however, missing some caucasian firebrand who didn't have the sort of silly image obsession Vanilla Ice portrayed, and I guess that's where Marshall Mathers comes in, yet another commodity in a world full of commodities.
posted by clevershark at 7:34 AM on July 10, 2002
Marquis...I disagree with lotsofno, but I was ecstatic to read his post because I feel he is qualified to criticize Eminem (because he likes rap, just not Eminem, and that's all good).
There are hundreds of Black skillful hip-hop artists who are knee deep in discriminatory shit and I think they have been given way more of a free pass than Eminem. (Ice Cube wrote many songs about his repulsion for "faggots")Eminem has been deeply criticized for his lyrics. Now, I know that you would not advocate censoring him in any way, he has the right to say what he likes and we would agree on that point, right? And what good is music without controversy? So the responsibility of those who are offended is to make their counter-arguments, picket his shows, try to educate others to see why he is wrong. And that is precisely what happened. Remember the Grammys? At which I might add, he DID perform with Elton John despite predictions of doom.
I reread your post and I think we are agreeing on more than we are disagreeing about. I'm personally not a fan of DeLaSoul or Blackalicious. Only History will tell for sure, but my feeling is DeLa, et.al will be a footnote and Eminem will be considered a pioneer of sorts. (My favorite is and always will be Rakim, who is the Grand-Daddy funk master of nastified lyrics...but most people have never heard of him)
posted by vito90 at 7:35 AM on July 10, 2002
There are hundreds of Black skillful hip-hop artists who are knee deep in discriminatory shit and I think they have been given way more of a free pass than Eminem. (Ice Cube wrote many songs about his repulsion for "faggots")Eminem has been deeply criticized for his lyrics. Now, I know that you would not advocate censoring him in any way, he has the right to say what he likes and we would agree on that point, right? And what good is music without controversy? So the responsibility of those who are offended is to make their counter-arguments, picket his shows, try to educate others to see why he is wrong. And that is precisely what happened. Remember the Grammys? At which I might add, he DID perform with Elton John despite predictions of doom.
I reread your post and I think we are agreeing on more than we are disagreeing about. I'm personally not a fan of DeLaSoul or Blackalicious. Only History will tell for sure, but my feeling is DeLa, et.al will be a footnote and Eminem will be considered a pioneer of sorts. (My favorite is and always will be Rakim, who is the Grand-Daddy funk master of nastified lyrics...but most people have never heard of him)
posted by vito90 at 7:35 AM on July 10, 2002
Now, I know that you would not advocate censoring him in any way, he has the right to say what he likes and we would agree on that point, right?
I wouldn't want government stormtroopers diving through the windows, no. I do feel that Interscope should drop him, for the same reason that the label chooses not to carry neo-Nazi music (for which there is certainly a market), and radio stations should refuse to add him to their playlists, just as they throw out records by Final Solution. Sure, Marshall can make all the discriminatory ruckus he wants, but I don't think that progressive society should give him the time of day, let alone finance his endeavours. And I condemn those who let his bigotry slide.
Only History will tell for sure, but my feeling is DeLa, et.al will be a footnote and Eminem will be considered a pioneer of sorts.
Eminem is a more significant personaltiy from a historical perspective - he is, after all, an astoundingly successful, controversial white hip hop artist. But such celebrity is insignificant to me; Grandmaster Flash or Public Enemy are many times more artistically important (and meaningful) than Run DMC; Stravinsky contributed more to humanity than Mariah Carey. Artistically, Eminem's work is immature and vapid, more pornography than social commentary.
posted by Marquis at 8:01 AM on July 10, 2002
I wouldn't want government stormtroopers diving through the windows, no. I do feel that Interscope should drop him, for the same reason that the label chooses not to carry neo-Nazi music (for which there is certainly a market), and radio stations should refuse to add him to their playlists, just as they throw out records by Final Solution. Sure, Marshall can make all the discriminatory ruckus he wants, but I don't think that progressive society should give him the time of day, let alone finance his endeavours. And I condemn those who let his bigotry slide.
Only History will tell for sure, but my feeling is DeLa, et.al will be a footnote and Eminem will be considered a pioneer of sorts.
Eminem is a more significant personaltiy from a historical perspective - he is, after all, an astoundingly successful, controversial white hip hop artist. But such celebrity is insignificant to me; Grandmaster Flash or Public Enemy are many times more artistically important (and meaningful) than Run DMC; Stravinsky contributed more to humanity than Mariah Carey. Artistically, Eminem's work is immature and vapid, more pornography than social commentary.
posted by Marquis at 8:01 AM on July 10, 2002
I think this dead guy has something relevant to say:
This seems to be a pretty good summary of a lot of simple responses to controversial art. We've seen some more nuanced stuff in this thread, and we've also heard from people who find Eminem both nasty and untalented. Don't anyone feel bashed, OK? Just consider this your daily dose of Orwell.
I don't think Eminem is either as talented or as vile as Orwell thought Dali was. I do think that although he is a troubled human being with only a patchy sense of insight or moral responsibility, he also has some real verbal gifts (although he also gains a lot from working with the right producers). "Without Me" as a very catchy and amusing video, but I have not yet bought any of hs CDs and I probably never will because his artistic gifts don't sufficiently outweigh the hateful and self-pitying point of view revealed in his work.
If anything is going to threaten Eminem's career, it won't be downloading, it's the fact that a lot of people my age seem to like his stuff. (I remember that Lileks and a couple of other bloggers praising "Without Me", and a lot more raving and praise of his rhyming skills showed up here and here in a blog run by a few lawyers.) That's the kiss of death, isn't it?
posted by maudlin at 8:55 AM on July 10, 2002
"If it were possible for a [work] to [produce] a physical stink ... this one would ... But against this has to be set the fact that [he] is [an artisan] of very exceptional gifts. ... He is an exhibitionist and a careerist, but he is not a fraud. He has fifty times more talent than most of the people who would denounce his morals and jeer at his [work]. And these two sets of facts, taken together, raise a question which for lack of any basis of agreement seldom gets a real discussion. ...George Orwell, "Benefit of Clergy: Some Notes on Salvador Dali". Collected in Decline of the English Murder and Collected Essays, Journalism and Letters of George Orwell, Volume 3: As I Please.
"Now, if you showed this [work] to any ‘sensible’ ... person — it is easy to imagine what kind of response you would get. They would flatly refuse to see any merit in [it] whatever. Such people are not only unable to admit that what is morally degraded can be aesthetically right, but their real demand of every artist is that he shall pat them on the back and tell them that thought is unnecessary. ...
"But if you talk to the kind of person who can see [his] merits, the response that you get is not as a rule very much better. If you say that [this man], though a brilliant [craftsman],is a dirty little scoundrel, you are looked upon as a savage. ...
"It will be seen that what the defenders of [this man] are claiming is a kind of benefit of clergy. The artist is to be exempt from the moral laws that are binding on ordinary people. Just pronounce the magic word ‘Art’, and everything is O.K. ... So long as you can [create] well enough to pass the test, all shall be forgiven you. ... One ought to be able to hold in one’s head simultaneously the two facts that [this man] is a good [craftsman] and a disgusting human being. The one does not invalidate or, in a sense, affect the other."
This seems to be a pretty good summary of a lot of simple responses to controversial art. We've seen some more nuanced stuff in this thread, and we've also heard from people who find Eminem both nasty and untalented. Don't anyone feel bashed, OK? Just consider this your daily dose of Orwell.
I don't think Eminem is either as talented or as vile as Orwell thought Dali was. I do think that although he is a troubled human being with only a patchy sense of insight or moral responsibility, he also has some real verbal gifts (although he also gains a lot from working with the right producers). "Without Me" as a very catchy and amusing video, but I have not yet bought any of hs CDs and I probably never will because his artistic gifts don't sufficiently outweigh the hateful and self-pitying point of view revealed in his work.
If anything is going to threaten Eminem's career, it won't be downloading, it's the fact that a lot of people my age seem to like his stuff. (I remember that Lileks and a couple of other bloggers praising "Without Me", and a lot more raving and praise of his rhyming skills showed up here and here in a blog run by a few lawyers.) That's the kiss of death, isn't it?
posted by maudlin at 8:55 AM on July 10, 2002
call eminem a cocksucker if you like, but calling him a 'tard' (and he is learning disabled, if i'm not mistaken) is no different than calling dr. king an 'uppity nigger'.
Gee, if this is Wednesday then it must be a double-standard. Why is it ok to use cocksucker as an insult and not 'tard? I suck cock, but I don't think that this means that it qualifies as an insult. What do you have against people who suck cock? Is there something inherently wrong with those who suck cock that makes that label an attractive and appropriate slur?
but using that word in any context demeans you and demeans tens of thousands ofsnip
yeah, that was any context right? So how does ('super tards', if you will) fit into that? The context is some kind of joke meant to turn the hurtful word against the offender, I think. But that's still a context, as is quoting the word, which you do freely.
Personally, I use the word cocksucker in a derogatory way, but people don't think I'm some self-hating homo. Rather, they are able to adjust the meaning to suit context. Spare you the cries of pc thought control? Certainly, since anyone who claims to hold dominion over whether or not something is meaningful in any context is hardly worth arguing with.
posted by holycola at 9:04 AM on July 10, 2002
Gee, if this is Wednesday then it must be a double-standard. Why is it ok to use cocksucker as an insult and not 'tard? I suck cock, but I don't think that this means that it qualifies as an insult. What do you have against people who suck cock? Is there something inherently wrong with those who suck cock that makes that label an attractive and appropriate slur?
but using that word in any context demeans you and demeans tens of thousands ofsnip
yeah, that was any context right? So how does ('super tards', if you will) fit into that? The context is some kind of joke meant to turn the hurtful word against the offender, I think. But that's still a context, as is quoting the word, which you do freely.
Personally, I use the word cocksucker in a derogatory way, but people don't think I'm some self-hating homo. Rather, they are able to adjust the meaning to suit context. Spare you the cries of pc thought control? Certainly, since anyone who claims to hold dominion over whether or not something is meaningful in any context is hardly worth arguing with.
posted by holycola at 9:04 AM on July 10, 2002
Vito90: Only History will tell for sure, but my feeling is DeLa, et.al will be a footnote and Eminem will be considered a pioneer of sorts. What sort of a pioneer is Eminem? I can't think of anything he's done that someone else didn't do before him.
posted by subgenius at 9:39 AM on July 10, 2002
posted by subgenius at 9:39 AM on July 10, 2002
mlang: call eminem a cocksucker if you like
Hey, I take offense to that. A lot of my best friends suck cock.
vito90: you don't like Eminem, and you probably (PROBABLY) don't like rap.
Wrong. I've liked rap a lot longer than Eminem's been rapping. One of the many reasons I can't stand thecocksucker twit is that he's perpetuating the myth that hip-hop is supposed to sound like the crap that he and his ilk are "creating."
I honestly believe that he wouldn't sell this many records if he wasn't white. It's prepackaged commercial angst -- which has been done to death for the past 25 years -- but now it has a violent twist. That he's a horrible person only makes things worse.
posted by Eamon at 10:04 AM on July 10, 2002
Hey, I take offense to that. A lot of my best friends suck cock.
vito90: you don't like Eminem, and you probably (PROBABLY) don't like rap.
Wrong. I've liked rap a lot longer than Eminem's been rapping. One of the many reasons I can't stand the
I honestly believe that he wouldn't sell this many records if he wasn't white. It's prepackaged commercial angst -- which has been done to death for the past 25 years -- but now it has a violent twist. That he's a horrible person only makes things worse.
posted by Eamon at 10:04 AM on July 10, 2002
What sort of a pioneer is Eminem? I can't think of anything he's done that someone else didn't do before him.
Then why is he so vilified? (rhetorical question in response to above comment specifically)
I believe he is the first White rapper to be fully accepted as having the same skills as Black rappers. You probably don't consider Elvis a pioneer, but you probably concede he's an icon at least (I really don't want to put words in your mouth, just trying to make an analogy to illustrate my point). And he didn't do anything new, he just did the same stuff as Black performers before him.
In our society, always struggling to rise above racial barriers, it is pioneering to do something successfully that is not normally done by your race. Maybe the action itself is not new, but the race of the performer is. I think this is progressive. It was progressive when Jackie Robinson broke baseball's color barrier, but he was playing the same sport as those before him. It was progressive when Condoleeza Rice was named head of the NSA, but it was the same job others had before her. I'd say both those two were pioneers. I'd argue that within the music world, specifically the rap world Eminem is a pioneer (and hey, the Black rappers say so).
Also, please don't claim that Third Bass was the first "acceptable" white rap group. At least by the measure of commercial success (or say, number of songs floating around the P2P networks) they don't even register.
posted by vito90 at 10:10 AM on July 10, 2002
Then why is he so vilified? (rhetorical question in response to above comment specifically)
I believe he is the first White rapper to be fully accepted as having the same skills as Black rappers. You probably don't consider Elvis a pioneer, but you probably concede he's an icon at least (I really don't want to put words in your mouth, just trying to make an analogy to illustrate my point). And he didn't do anything new, he just did the same stuff as Black performers before him.
In our society, always struggling to rise above racial barriers, it is pioneering to do something successfully that is not normally done by your race. Maybe the action itself is not new, but the race of the performer is. I think this is progressive. It was progressive when Jackie Robinson broke baseball's color barrier, but he was playing the same sport as those before him. It was progressive when Condoleeza Rice was named head of the NSA, but it was the same job others had before her. I'd say both those two were pioneers. I'd argue that within the music world, specifically the rap world Eminem is a pioneer (and hey, the Black rappers say so).
Also, please don't claim that Third Bass was the first "acceptable" white rap group. At least by the measure of commercial success (or say, number of songs floating around the P2P networks) they don't even register.
posted by vito90 at 10:10 AM on July 10, 2002
Eamon - okay, let's start with the word PROBABLY - I qualified that statement because I knew there would be people who did like rap and don't like Eminem and I wanted to hear from them. I guess I was too subtle.
Second, perpetuating the myth that hip-hop is supposed to sound like the crap
Who died and put you in charge of what hip-hop is SUPPOSED to sound like?
Third, as far as how many albums were sold because he is white, well, Eminem is WAY ahead of you on that.
"Let's do the math,
If I was Black, I would have sold half.
I didn't have to graduate
from Lincoln High School to know that"
posted by vito90 at 10:16 AM on July 10, 2002
Second, perpetuating the myth that hip-hop is supposed to sound like the crap
Who died and put you in charge of what hip-hop is SUPPOSED to sound like?
Third, as far as how many albums were sold because he is white, well, Eminem is WAY ahead of you on that.
"Let's do the math,
If I was Black, I would have sold half.
I didn't have to graduate
from Lincoln High School to know that"
posted by vito90 at 10:16 AM on July 10, 2002
What Orwell said, courtesy Maudlin. Those who didn't read it carefully should read it again, and pay especial attention to the last paragraph.
Here is the question you need to consider: is this entertainment helping you become a better person?
I am certain that several of you are going mock that question. Please, then, question your own self: why would you want to become a worse person?
posted by five fresh fish at 10:26 AM on July 10, 2002
Here is the question you need to consider: is this entertainment helping you become a better person?
I am certain that several of you are going mock that question. Please, then, question your own self: why would you want to become a worse person?
posted by five fresh fish at 10:26 AM on July 10, 2002
Here is the question you need to consider: is this entertainment helping you become a better person?
That depends on if you view entertainment as a tool for helping one become a better person or not. Do I think that by seeing a movie, I am then a better person? No.
If I read a FICTION novel about something I don't think I am a better person for reading it.
Does entertainment give me insites to who I am? occasionally yes it does. But every time? No. I can think of 2 movies that have changed my ways of thinking about life. Yet I have probably seen thousands in my life so far. Has a book every changed my life? Yes. Do I own it, you bet I do. How about music? Does every CD I buy change who I am? Nope. I, unlike most of my friends, have not had a CD that just "changed my life forever"
I have however, found music that is good to listen to, and music that is good to listen to the lyrics too. Most people can sit back and sing part of a song that is on a radio, without even knowing the words. Yes they know them, but they don't know what the artist is actually saying.
A good example that my friend thought up of is Madonna's "How it feels for a girl" Yes, the lyrics are catchy, and most people know the chorus. But sit down and actually listen to them and study the meaning, and it is deeper than what you think.
Can music or entertainment change who we are. Yes. Does it happen every single time we listen or see it? No. Only a select few will actually be affected by it, while most will take it for what it is supposed to be - entertainment.
posted by thebwit at 10:48 AM on July 10, 2002
That depends on if you view entertainment as a tool for helping one become a better person or not. Do I think that by seeing a movie, I am then a better person? No.
If I read a FICTION novel about something I don't think I am a better person for reading it.
Does entertainment give me insites to who I am? occasionally yes it does. But every time? No. I can think of 2 movies that have changed my ways of thinking about life. Yet I have probably seen thousands in my life so far. Has a book every changed my life? Yes. Do I own it, you bet I do. How about music? Does every CD I buy change who I am? Nope. I, unlike most of my friends, have not had a CD that just "changed my life forever"
I have however, found music that is good to listen to, and music that is good to listen to the lyrics too. Most people can sit back and sing part of a song that is on a radio, without even knowing the words. Yes they know them, but they don't know what the artist is actually saying.
A good example that my friend thought up of is Madonna's "How it feels for a girl" Yes, the lyrics are catchy, and most people know the chorus. But sit down and actually listen to them and study the meaning, and it is deeper than what you think.
Can music or entertainment change who we are. Yes. Does it happen every single time we listen or see it? No. Only a select few will actually be affected by it, while most will take it for what it is supposed to be - entertainment.
posted by thebwit at 10:48 AM on July 10, 2002
Also to toddshot, who said all Eminem's lyrics are about the same thing, how cool he is. This is the history of rap. Rakim (the solo controller), Run DMC , the NWA crew, LLCool J...its all about one-upping the other guy
Yes, that may be one of the traditions of rap, but I think some of the better hip-hop artists are those who are moving away from it. De La Soul, Handsome Boy Modeling School, The Roots, etc. etc.
If we apply the same standard to rock music, then it's 'artists' like Andrew WK who are continuing the 'history' of rock: simple, brainless songs about dancing and fun. I would submit that it's the artists who do something to help the genre evolve that should be considered the cream of the crop, not those who allow it to stagnate in its own 'history'.
posted by toddshot at 10:55 AM on July 10, 2002
Yes, that may be one of the traditions of rap, but I think some of the better hip-hop artists are those who are moving away from it. De La Soul, Handsome Boy Modeling School, The Roots, etc. etc.
If we apply the same standard to rock music, then it's 'artists' like Andrew WK who are continuing the 'history' of rock: simple, brainless songs about dancing and fun. I would submit that it's the artists who do something to help the genre evolve that should be considered the cream of the crop, not those who allow it to stagnate in its own 'history'.
posted by toddshot at 10:55 AM on July 10, 2002
So Eminem admits that he's only popular because of his race? That makes the whole affair much more disgusting.
Point of order: Handsome Boy Modelling School, while brilliant, isn't a rap group in the traditional sense. However, in reply to vito90's question, that is what hip-hop is supposed to sound like.
In fact, just to derail the thread, I'll put Deltron 3030 in the same list of "perfect albums (as determined by Eamon)" as Pet Sounds, Astral Weeks, Getz/Gilberto, and Let Em' Roll.
posted by Eamon at 11:20 AM on July 10, 2002
Point of order: Handsome Boy Modelling School, while brilliant, isn't a rap group in the traditional sense. However, in reply to vito90's question, that is what hip-hop is supposed to sound like.
In fact, just to derail the thread, I'll put Deltron 3030 in the same list of "perfect albums (as determined by Eamon)" as Pet Sounds, Astral Weeks, Getz/Gilberto, and Let Em' Roll.
posted by Eamon at 11:20 AM on July 10, 2002
Eminem says naughty words. The kids like the naughty words. The unit sells. Repeat as necessary
While I do not care for all this current "gansta'" rap, I do admit that his new stuff is pretty catchy, and well executed as far as style and delivery are concerned. Aside from that, the strides he's making in the originality category are mere baby steps. Man, if I want to hear whining teen angst anthems, all I gots to do is turn on any commercial rock station to hear the latest laughable "I'm so alienated, this world is f*ucked, no one understands me" tune from Limp Bizkit, Linkin' Park (shudder), Korn, etc.
posted by sharksandwich at 11:25 AM on July 10, 2002
While I do not care for all this current "gansta'" rap, I do admit that his new stuff is pretty catchy, and well executed as far as style and delivery are concerned. Aside from that, the strides he's making in the originality category are mere baby steps. Man, if I want to hear whining teen angst anthems, all I gots to do is turn on any commercial rock station to hear the latest laughable "I'm so alienated, this world is f*ucked, no one understands me" tune from Limp Bizkit, Linkin' Park (shudder), Korn, etc.
posted by sharksandwich at 11:25 AM on July 10, 2002
I listen to a lop of hip hop. That being said, Eminem is one of the few people doing anything interesting with hip hop right now (The others being Blackalicious, Mos Def (either with Talib Kweli or Black Jack Johnson), Jurassic 5, and Mr. Lif). If you're basing your opinion of Eminem by what you hear on the radio, see on MTV, or read about in the paper, then you're doing yourself a disservice.
Eminem is by far the best writer/rapper (in hip hop) to come along in a long, long, long time. Sure, some of his lyrics are misogynistic, hateful, and homophobic. That's the way hip hop is right now, for the most part. Buy the new Cam'ron CD, or the new Ludicrous CD, or any Jay-Z CD, you'll get the almost the same thing. The only difference is the Eminem album names names, where as the other CD's keep it to a more anonymous level of misogyny and homophobia.
Eminem's paid his dues, for years on his own with out a record label. He put out his first cd in 1996, not on a major label. He's been embraced by both the underground hip hop community, and the mainstream hip hop community. Despite making it on his own for years, coming out of nowhere and making it in mainstream hip hop, and staying there for more than 4 years, some people just have a hard fucking time admitting he's even the least bit talented. (Not singling you two out, your posts just caught my eye). Just because you happen not to like what he writes about, doesn't mean he isn't a talented writer.
Do yourself a favor and listen to one of his CD's. Buy it, borrow it, steal it - whatever. Just listen to what you're so overwhelmingly against. Know your enemy, right?
"You're 'bout to witness hip hop in it's/Most purist, most rawest form flow, almost flawless/ Most hardest, most honest known artist." -Eminem (Business, off of The Eminem Show)
posted by SweetJesus at 11:47 AM on July 10, 2002
Eminem is by far the best writer/rapper (in hip hop) to come along in a long, long, long time. Sure, some of his lyrics are misogynistic, hateful, and homophobic. That's the way hip hop is right now, for the most part. Buy the new Cam'ron CD, or the new Ludicrous CD, or any Jay-Z CD, you'll get the almost the same thing. The only difference is the Eminem album names names, where as the other CD's keep it to a more anonymous level of misogyny and homophobia.
Eminem's paid his dues, for years on his own with out a record label. He put out his first cd in 1996, not on a major label. He's been embraced by both the underground hip hop community, and the mainstream hip hop community. Despite making it on his own for years, coming out of nowhere and making it in mainstream hip hop, and staying there for more than 4 years, some people just have a hard fucking time admitting he's even the least bit talented. (Not singling you two out, your posts just caught my eye). Just because you happen not to like what he writes about, doesn't mean he isn't a talented writer.
Do yourself a favor and listen to one of his CD's. Buy it, borrow it, steal it - whatever. Just listen to what you're so overwhelmingly against. Know your enemy, right?
"You're 'bout to witness hip hop in it's/Most purist, most rawest form flow, almost flawless/ Most hardest, most honest known artist." -Eminem (Business, off of The Eminem Show)
posted by SweetJesus at 11:47 AM on July 10, 2002
Sure, some of his lyrics are misogynistic, hateful, and homophobic. That's the way hip hop is right now, for the most part.
So how about you condemn said lyrics instead of condoning them because he is "the best writer/rapper ... to come along in a long ... time"? Don't just note the hate -- denounce it. You're doing exactly what I find most frustrating - forgiving and forgetting Eminem's violent bigotry because you enjoy the rest of his delivery.
I know Eminem's music. I'm familiar with modern hip hop. I recognize he and Dre's finesse. But, unlike others, I can't look past his hurtful, harmful, hate-breeding rhymes, and I'm disappointed that others gloss over the same words. Can you imagine a hit film with blatantly racist overtones, embraced by today's critical community? Eminem's shitfaced success is loathesome and astonishing.
If you enjoy his music, I can't simply tell you not to. I can suggest you listen closer to his message, and consider the value of the philosophy he puts forward. I can ask you to apply a critical ear (and critical mind) to the smirking hate Marshall's spouting. And I can expect you to justify any support of it.
posted by Marquis at 12:19 PM on July 10, 2002
So how about you condemn said lyrics instead of condoning them because he is "the best writer/rapper ... to come along in a long ... time"? Don't just note the hate -- denounce it. You're doing exactly what I find most frustrating - forgiving and forgetting Eminem's violent bigotry because you enjoy the rest of his delivery.
I know Eminem's music. I'm familiar with modern hip hop. I recognize he and Dre's finesse. But, unlike others, I can't look past his hurtful, harmful, hate-breeding rhymes, and I'm disappointed that others gloss over the same words. Can you imagine a hit film with blatantly racist overtones, embraced by today's critical community? Eminem's shitfaced success is loathesome and astonishing.
If you enjoy his music, I can't simply tell you not to. I can suggest you listen closer to his message, and consider the value of the philosophy he puts forward. I can ask you to apply a critical ear (and critical mind) to the smirking hate Marshall's spouting. And I can expect you to justify any support of it.
posted by Marquis at 12:19 PM on July 10, 2002
His true and diehard fans will continue to support him, because he creates controversy, and as long as he continues to do so, they will not care. That is his fanbase, and that is what will happen.
Those that don't take his music personally and seriously, but rather listen to it for the sheer entertainment and comical value(if there is such a thing, stemming from him..), will continue to do so.
And finally, the individuals(and groups, ie, gay associations, etc) that are in complete disgust of his lyrics, will continue to fight for vengeance. That is how it will work.
No one's mind is being changed. Creating this unnecessary argument here just helps him. As someone said above... no publicity is bad publicity, or something of that sort. Good day ladies and gents.
posted by spidre at 12:42 PM on July 10, 2002
Those that don't take his music personally and seriously, but rather listen to it for the sheer entertainment and comical value(if there is such a thing, stemming from him..), will continue to do so.
And finally, the individuals(and groups, ie, gay associations, etc) that are in complete disgust of his lyrics, will continue to fight for vengeance. That is how it will work.
No one's mind is being changed. Creating this unnecessary argument here just helps him. As someone said above... no publicity is bad publicity, or something of that sort. Good day ladies and gents.
posted by spidre at 12:42 PM on July 10, 2002
What sort of a pioneer is Eminem? I can't think of anything he's done that someone else didn't do before him.
vito90: Then why is he so vilified? (rhetorical question in response to above comment specifically)
What does vilification have to do with being a pioneer? It's not like Em is vilified because he does anything new -- he's vilified because he spits tired, gangster-rap cliches and is a safe target for white critics.
I believe he is the first White rapper to be fully accepted as having the same skills as Black rappers. You probably don't consider Elvis a pioneer, but you probably concede he's an icon at least (I really don't want to put words in your mouth, just trying to make an analogy to illustrate my point). And he didn't do anything new, he just did the same stuff as Black performers before him.
But that didn't make Elvis a pioneer -- it just made him popular. Like Eminem. And it certainly didn't excuse his politics (or, topically enough, the reaction from actual hip-hop pioneers: "Elvis was a hero to most/ But he never meant shit to me, you see/ Straight up racist that sucker was simple and plain/ Motherfuck him and John Wayne.")
In our society, always struggling to rise above racial barriers, it is pioneering to do something successfully that is not normally done by your race. Maybe the action itself is not new, but the race of the performer is. * * * I'd argue that within the music world, specifically the rap world Eminem is a pioneer (and hey, the Black rappers say so). * * * Also, please don't claim that Third Bass was the first "acceptable" white rap group. At least by the measure of commercial success (or say, number of songs floating around the P2P networks) they don't even register.
If you want to talk about record sales, the Beastie Boys have sold more albums than Eminem, and "Licensed to Ill" has sold more copies than "The Marshall Mathers LP." And 3rd Bass had three albums go gold at a point where it was actually somewhat controversial for white folks to be involved with hip-hop. Eminem is selling a lot of albums to kids who shop at Sam Goody, but that's not news -- so are all the artists he complains about. There are so many talented MCs out there who are white (off the top of my head: Slug, Eyedea, Sage Francis, Dose One, Sole, Alias, Why?, Necro, El-P, the Beasties, and even Paul Barnam) that Eminem is just another talented rapper following in the footsteps of the people who went before him. Eminem isn't Elvis Presley -- he's Elvis Costello.
posted by subgenius at 12:44 PM on July 10, 2002
vito90: Then why is he so vilified? (rhetorical question in response to above comment specifically)
What does vilification have to do with being a pioneer? It's not like Em is vilified because he does anything new -- he's vilified because he spits tired, gangster-rap cliches and is a safe target for white critics.
I believe he is the first White rapper to be fully accepted as having the same skills as Black rappers. You probably don't consider Elvis a pioneer, but you probably concede he's an icon at least (I really don't want to put words in your mouth, just trying to make an analogy to illustrate my point). And he didn't do anything new, he just did the same stuff as Black performers before him.
But that didn't make Elvis a pioneer -- it just made him popular. Like Eminem. And it certainly didn't excuse his politics (or, topically enough, the reaction from actual hip-hop pioneers: "Elvis was a hero to most/ But he never meant shit to me, you see/ Straight up racist that sucker was simple and plain/ Motherfuck him and John Wayne.")
In our society, always struggling to rise above racial barriers, it is pioneering to do something successfully that is not normally done by your race. Maybe the action itself is not new, but the race of the performer is. * * * I'd argue that within the music world, specifically the rap world Eminem is a pioneer (and hey, the Black rappers say so). * * * Also, please don't claim that Third Bass was the first "acceptable" white rap group. At least by the measure of commercial success (or say, number of songs floating around the P2P networks) they don't even register.
If you want to talk about record sales, the Beastie Boys have sold more albums than Eminem, and "Licensed to Ill" has sold more copies than "The Marshall Mathers LP." And 3rd Bass had three albums go gold at a point where it was actually somewhat controversial for white folks to be involved with hip-hop. Eminem is selling a lot of albums to kids who shop at Sam Goody, but that's not news -- so are all the artists he complains about. There are so many talented MCs out there who are white (off the top of my head: Slug, Eyedea, Sage Francis, Dose One, Sole, Alias, Why?, Necro, El-P, the Beasties, and even Paul Barnam) that Eminem is just another talented rapper following in the footsteps of the people who went before him. Eminem isn't Elvis Presley -- he's Elvis Costello.
posted by subgenius at 12:44 PM on July 10, 2002
Can you imagine a hit film with blatantly racist overtones, embraced by today's critical community?
A film is a film. Unless it purports to be reality, then it's just entertainment. If you listen to Eminem's CDs, you'll notice that he has three distinct personas - Eminem (The angry, sometime misogynist), Marshall Mathers (The scared and insecure kid from Detroit) and Slim Shady (The ultra mysgonistic, ultra homophobic "crazy" persona).
These are just characters. You wouldn't call an author misogynistic if he writes a book where one of the characters is. Same thing goes for Eminem. It's all about seperating the reality from the fiction, and coming to your own conclusions.
And in fact, most of his misogyny is directed towards his ex-wife, and his mother, not all women in general (although I can't say the same about the homophobia, but that's another story). It's an important distinction to make.
can't look past his hurtful, harmful, hate-breeding rhymes
How are his rhymes more hurtful than any other in hip hop? Hip hop's full of hate and vitriol. Why is it right to single out Eminem for something that's been around since the days of 2LiveCrew?
I can suggest you listen closer to his message, and consider the value of the philosophy he puts forward. I can ask you to apply a critical ear (and critical mind) to the smirking hate Marshall's spouting. And I can expect you to justify any support of it.
I'd be interested in reading what you think Eminem's great, overall message is. The message I come across is more of a "Don't ever let anyone tell you 'you don't have the right to say that'". His message isn't "smacking bitches is fun!", or anything else of that nature. I can see how you would think the pervious is true, if you take the lyrics at face value.
I also have to take issue with you calling Eminem racist. Homophobic yes, misogynistic yes, but not racist. I have all four of his albums, and I really can't remember any racial slurs in his rhymes.
Upon preview ->
I notice that subgenius has cited Necro as an alternative white emcee. Necro is an EXTREME misogynist and homophobe (much much much more so than Eminem. Go download "Get on Your Knees"...), and not nearly as good a rapper as eminem. This is just example of how Eminem is nothing but a poster child for this vilification.
posted by SweetJesus at 1:05 PM on July 10, 2002
A film is a film. Unless it purports to be reality, then it's just entertainment. If you listen to Eminem's CDs, you'll notice that he has three distinct personas - Eminem (The angry, sometime misogynist), Marshall Mathers (The scared and insecure kid from Detroit) and Slim Shady (The ultra mysgonistic, ultra homophobic "crazy" persona).
These are just characters. You wouldn't call an author misogynistic if he writes a book where one of the characters is. Same thing goes for Eminem. It's all about seperating the reality from the fiction, and coming to your own conclusions.
And in fact, most of his misogyny is directed towards his ex-wife, and his mother, not all women in general (although I can't say the same about the homophobia, but that's another story). It's an important distinction to make.
can't look past his hurtful, harmful, hate-breeding rhymes
How are his rhymes more hurtful than any other in hip hop? Hip hop's full of hate and vitriol. Why is it right to single out Eminem for something that's been around since the days of 2LiveCrew?
I can suggest you listen closer to his message, and consider the value of the philosophy he puts forward. I can ask you to apply a critical ear (and critical mind) to the smirking hate Marshall's spouting. And I can expect you to justify any support of it.
I'd be interested in reading what you think Eminem's great, overall message is. The message I come across is more of a "Don't ever let anyone tell you 'you don't have the right to say that'". His message isn't "smacking bitches is fun!", or anything else of that nature. I can see how you would think the pervious is true, if you take the lyrics at face value.
I also have to take issue with you calling Eminem racist. Homophobic yes, misogynistic yes, but not racist. I have all four of his albums, and I really can't remember any racial slurs in his rhymes.
Upon preview ->
I notice that subgenius has cited Necro as an alternative white emcee. Necro is an EXTREME misogynist and homophobe (much much much more so than Eminem. Go download "Get on Your Knees"...), and not nearly as good a rapper as eminem. This is just example of how Eminem is nothing but a poster child for this vilification.
posted by SweetJesus at 1:05 PM on July 10, 2002
Do yourself a favor and listen to one of his CD's. Buy it, borrow it, steal it - whatever.
First person who emails me their postal address can have my copy of the Marshall Mathers LP. I'll pay postage.
posted by ceiriog at 1:07 PM on July 10, 2002
First person who emails me their postal address can have my copy of the Marshall Mathers LP. I'll pay postage.
posted by ceiriog at 1:07 PM on July 10, 2002
These are just characters. You wouldn't call an author misogynistic if he writes a book where one of the characters is. Same thing goes for Eminem.
I tried to do this. When Eminem first emerged (and later, with "Stan"), I embraced the message: 'ok, so he claims that it's a character'. But then Marshall Mathers never backed away from any of the statements he supposedly made "in character". As much as he pretended to wear masks, he consistently stated (or implied) that he agreed with the hate spewed by 'Slim Shady' and 'Eminem'. To play the it's-a-character card, Mathers needs to make some sort of third-person value judgment, or show himself truly separated from the views of his personae.
"As far as gay people, that's their business. Truthfully, I don't care. It's none of my business." -- Rolling Stone
Even in examples such as that one, although he says "I'm not a homophobe", Mathers doesn't address the blatant homophobia of his lyrics.
"So when you see me, dressin up like a nerd on TV / or heard the CD usin the fag word so freely / it's just me being me, here want me to tone it down? / 'Suck my fuckin dick, you faggot' / You happy now?"
He never justifies it, he simply dodges the challenge. Why? Because regardless of whether he believes the bigoted BS, it's selling records, so he's going to continue to shout it from the rooftops (um, *cough* "in character").
How are his rhymes more hurtful than any other in hip hop?
They're not. All should be condemned. Here, I'll do it for you: Hate-speech is bad. Eminem, however, is the artist whose albums I see defended by progressives and critics.
The message I come across is more of a "Don't ever let anyone tell you 'you don't have the right to say that'".
Your reading is probably pretty fair, and I got a little lost in my rhetoric. Eminem's overall vision isn't exactly "Kill the women". For me, however, a major component of his music's value-system is the careless ease with which he bashes certain groups. I feel it encourages casual homophobia/misogyny - the jokey threats against girlfriends, the snickering "You're such a fag" remarks in the schoolyard. This sort of sly, throw-away bigotry should not be given a lauded voice in our society.
I didn't.
posted by Marquis at 1:54 PM on July 10, 2002
I tried to do this. When Eminem first emerged (and later, with "Stan"), I embraced the message: 'ok, so he claims that it's a character'. But then Marshall Mathers never backed away from any of the statements he supposedly made "in character". As much as he pretended to wear masks, he consistently stated (or implied) that he agreed with the hate spewed by 'Slim Shady' and 'Eminem'. To play the it's-a-character card, Mathers needs to make some sort of third-person value judgment, or show himself truly separated from the views of his personae.
"As far as gay people, that's their business. Truthfully, I don't care. It's none of my business." -- Rolling Stone
Even in examples such as that one, although he says "I'm not a homophobe", Mathers doesn't address the blatant homophobia of his lyrics.
"So when you see me, dressin up like a nerd on TV / or heard the CD usin the fag word so freely / it's just me being me, here want me to tone it down? / 'Suck my fuckin dick, you faggot' / You happy now?"
He never justifies it, he simply dodges the challenge. Why? Because regardless of whether he believes the bigoted BS, it's selling records, so he's going to continue to shout it from the rooftops (um, *cough* "in character").
How are his rhymes more hurtful than any other in hip hop?
They're not. All should be condemned. Here, I'll do it for you: Hate-speech is bad. Eminem, however, is the artist whose albums I see defended by progressives and critics.
The message I come across is more of a "Don't ever let anyone tell you 'you don't have the right to say that'".
Your reading is probably pretty fair, and I got a little lost in my rhetoric. Eminem's overall vision isn't exactly "Kill the women". For me, however, a major component of his music's value-system is the careless ease with which he bashes certain groups. I feel it encourages casual homophobia/misogyny - the jokey threats against girlfriends, the snickering "You're such a fag" remarks in the schoolyard. This sort of sly, throw-away bigotry should not be given a lauded voice in our society.
Moby (me neither) said it quite well: "The weird thing is that I actually do think that Eminem has skills as an MC, but it disturbs me that he glorifies homophobia and misogyny in his songs, especially seeing as his listeners are, for the most part, very impressionable 10-year-old boys. [M]usicians need to assume a certain artistic responsibility when their fanbase is very, very young. From my perspective, any music that glorifies abuse, misogyny, homophobia or racism is disturbing, but especially so when it's targeted to a fanbase of 10-year-old boys," he continued."I also have to take issue with you calling Eminem racist.
I didn't.
posted by Marquis at 1:54 PM on July 10, 2002
There are so many talented MCs out there who are white (off the top of my head: Slug, Eyedea, Sage Francis, Dose One, Sole, Alias, Why?, Necro, El-P, the Beasties, and even Paul Barnam)
Necro is an EXTREME misogynist and homophobe (much much much more so than Eminem. Go download "Get on Your Knees"...), and not nearly as good a rapper as eminem.
i'd just like to add that (at least in my opinion) none of those MCs rap "as good" as Eminem. subject matter aside, none of them seem to display the same mastery of their style, as Eminem does. then again, people like El-P and Dose whose rhyming is completely different, could say that different subject matter (VERY different), calls for different presentation... and i've never heard sage francis, so i may be wrong about him.
posted by lotsofno at 2:00 PM on July 10, 2002
Necro is an EXTREME misogynist and homophobe (much much much more so than Eminem. Go download "Get on Your Knees"...), and not nearly as good a rapper as eminem.
i'd just like to add that (at least in my opinion) none of those MCs rap "as good" as Eminem. subject matter aside, none of them seem to display the same mastery of their style, as Eminem does. then again, people like El-P and Dose whose rhyming is completely different, could say that different subject matter (VERY different), calls for different presentation... and i've never heard sage francis, so i may be wrong about him.
posted by lotsofno at 2:00 PM on July 10, 2002
So thats why Eminem said a bunch of stuff about Moby on "Without Me"....thanks Marquis. :-D
posted by spidre at 2:02 PM on July 10, 2002
posted by spidre at 2:02 PM on July 10, 2002
Vito...
As a huge rap fan (and an MC myself), I rate Eminem the following:
His hooks are excellent. A lot of MC's with good flow have terrible hooks.
His beats are very good. Dre, aside from Timbaland, is the best producer out there. I think he's easily better than Hi-Tek, Prince Paul and the Neptunes.
His voice isn't bad - he comes across clearly though of course all rappers are tough to understand at times.
His lyrics are the problem. On a technical level, he works good internal rhymes. But 1) he's not clever enough, and that was always critical in rap and 2) his rap doesn't usually have a point other than "Everyone hates me, but I don't care." From the first CD, only "Guilty Conscience" has lyrical originality that impressed me.
Also a problem are his live shows. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer rappers who smile and get the crowd into the show rather than stomping around the stage pretending they're God's gift to rap.
As far as gangsta rap goes, Nas is significantly better lyrically, as far as song flow. In the underground, tons of rappers, from Binary Star to J-Live to Cunninlynguists to Athletic Mic League have better lyrics and flow that Eminem.
Here's some samples of good lyrics, in my opinion:
"Check out this high voltage, I got the ACDC
To shock emcees and leave them whining like CC
So BB, on the lookout, I'm live wire
You can't handle me, gzzz gzzz, I start fires
Crossing my path, don't make me laugh, it ain't worth it
Caught a nurses on my verses blowing all your circuits
Peep the current, cause what I bring to the mic, is like
Benjamin Franklin with a string and a kite
Electrocute emcees who battle weak- wait awhile
My flow is like death row- have a seat
Every sentenced executed every time I said a verse
My frequencies tipped your measurements, we're in megahertz
Even with rubber gloves you still couldn't touch it
Make sure you're grounded when I'm, bzzz bzzz, buzzing
Tupac ain't really dead, I took the headphones off my ear
Put them on his chest and told the room to stand clear"
- One Man Army
or
"Competition is mad, what I got, they can't have
Sinkin they ship, like Moby Dick, did Ahab
Son I'm way past the minimum, it's a verb millenium
My rap's hold a gat to your back, like Palestinians
Ancient Abyssinia, sure to hold the Gideon
Official b-boy gentlemen, long term, never the interim
Born inside the winter wind, day after December 10
These simpletons they mentionin the synonym for feminine
Sweeter than some cinnamon from Danish rings by Entenmann's
Rush up on adrenaline, they get they asses sent to them
(Gentlemen) you got a tenement, well then assemble it!
Leave your unit tremblin like herds of movin elephant
Intelligent embellishment, follow for your element
from Flatbush settlement, skin posseses melanin
Hotter than tales of crack peddlin, makin em WOOP
like blue gelatin, swing like Duke Ellington
Broader than Barrington Levy, believe me"
- Mos Def
posted by Kevs at 2:03 PM on July 10, 2002
As a huge rap fan (and an MC myself), I rate Eminem the following:
His hooks are excellent. A lot of MC's with good flow have terrible hooks.
His beats are very good. Dre, aside from Timbaland, is the best producer out there. I think he's easily better than Hi-Tek, Prince Paul and the Neptunes.
His voice isn't bad - he comes across clearly though of course all rappers are tough to understand at times.
His lyrics are the problem. On a technical level, he works good internal rhymes. But 1) he's not clever enough, and that was always critical in rap and 2) his rap doesn't usually have a point other than "Everyone hates me, but I don't care." From the first CD, only "Guilty Conscience" has lyrical originality that impressed me.
Also a problem are his live shows. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer rappers who smile and get the crowd into the show rather than stomping around the stage pretending they're God's gift to rap.
As far as gangsta rap goes, Nas is significantly better lyrically, as far as song flow. In the underground, tons of rappers, from Binary Star to J-Live to Cunninlynguists to Athletic Mic League have better lyrics and flow that Eminem.
Here's some samples of good lyrics, in my opinion:
"Check out this high voltage, I got the ACDC
To shock emcees and leave them whining like CC
So BB, on the lookout, I'm live wire
You can't handle me, gzzz gzzz, I start fires
Crossing my path, don't make me laugh, it ain't worth it
Caught a nurses on my verses blowing all your circuits
Peep the current, cause what I bring to the mic, is like
Benjamin Franklin with a string and a kite
Electrocute emcees who battle weak- wait awhile
My flow is like death row- have a seat
Every sentenced executed every time I said a verse
My frequencies tipped your measurements, we're in megahertz
Even with rubber gloves you still couldn't touch it
Make sure you're grounded when I'm, bzzz bzzz, buzzing
Tupac ain't really dead, I took the headphones off my ear
Put them on his chest and told the room to stand clear"
- One Man Army
or
"Competition is mad, what I got, they can't have
Sinkin they ship, like Moby Dick, did Ahab
Son I'm way past the minimum, it's a verb millenium
My rap's hold a gat to your back, like Palestinians
Ancient Abyssinia, sure to hold the Gideon
Official b-boy gentlemen, long term, never the interim
Born inside the winter wind, day after December 10
These simpletons they mentionin the synonym for feminine
Sweeter than some cinnamon from Danish rings by Entenmann's
Rush up on adrenaline, they get they asses sent to them
(Gentlemen) you got a tenement, well then assemble it!
Leave your unit tremblin like herds of movin elephant
Intelligent embellishment, follow for your element
from Flatbush settlement, skin posseses melanin
Hotter than tales of crack peddlin, makin em WOOP
like blue gelatin, swing like Duke Ellington
Broader than Barrington Levy, believe me"
- Mos Def
posted by Kevs at 2:03 PM on July 10, 2002
sweetjesus: Necro is more offensive (and less original) than Em, but he's no less a "pioneer" -- which is to say, he's not a pioneer at all. I don't like Necro, but it's hard to dispute his talent, his pigmentation, or his lack of historical significance.
lotsofno: I wasn't saying that those MCs were better or worse than Eminem, just that Marshall Mathers is not the Great White (Hip) Hope. There are so many people of different ethnicities in hip-hop that Eminem's race is notable (in my opinion) only because it makes him an easy target for white folks who would feel uncomfortable criticizing a black rapper who says the same thing. I don't even think it's worth arguing about the best white MC, because it doesn't matter. I'd rather listen to Mos Def and Atmosphere than Jay-Z and Eminem, but that's just taste.
posted by subgenius at 2:32 PM on July 10, 2002
lotsofno: I wasn't saying that those MCs were better or worse than Eminem, just that Marshall Mathers is not the Great White (Hip) Hope. There are so many people of different ethnicities in hip-hop that Eminem's race is notable (in my opinion) only because it makes him an easy target for white folks who would feel uncomfortable criticizing a black rapper who says the same thing. I don't even think it's worth arguing about the best white MC, because it doesn't matter. I'd rather listen to Mos Def and Atmosphere than Jay-Z and Eminem, but that's just taste.
posted by subgenius at 2:32 PM on July 10, 2002
ah, never heard atmosphere, but i must agree with you on rather listening to mos then eminem, though i haven't heard much of his stuff lately. he can put some energy in a song, and the voice is top.
posted by lotsofno at 3:05 PM on July 10, 2002
posted by lotsofno at 3:05 PM on July 10, 2002
"That depends on if you view entertainment as a tool for helping one become a better person or not. Do I think that by seeing a movie, I am then a better person? No."
Ah. So you believe that what you see and hear has no effect on your paradigms, beliefs, or thoughts. That what your brain receives from your eyes and ears fails to influence your mind. That you live in a vacuum.
Sorry to be the one to inform you, but that's simply not true. What you put into your brain absolutely affects your thinking. For gosh sakes, it's how we all learn! Mommy says "ain'tchoo a nummy liddle boy, aintchoo, lovey little boy!" and you learn language. Daddy drinks too much and beats up Mommy, and you learn about interpersonal relationships.
Likewise with music.
To wit, I will not listen to music that promotes intolerance or hatred of others. You will. Right there, we gain some insight into what we each find acceptable and inacceptable. You feel that it is okay to promote hateful ideas through music. You feel that it is okay to hate... if you did not, you would not listen to the music as entertainment.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:18 PM on July 10, 2002
Ah. So you believe that what you see and hear has no effect on your paradigms, beliefs, or thoughts. That what your brain receives from your eyes and ears fails to influence your mind. That you live in a vacuum.
Sorry to be the one to inform you, but that's simply not true. What you put into your brain absolutely affects your thinking. For gosh sakes, it's how we all learn! Mommy says "ain'tchoo a nummy liddle boy, aintchoo, lovey little boy!" and you learn language. Daddy drinks too much and beats up Mommy, and you learn about interpersonal relationships.
Likewise with music.
To wit, I will not listen to music that promotes intolerance or hatred of others. You will. Right there, we gain some insight into what we each find acceptable and inacceptable. You feel that it is okay to promote hateful ideas through music. You feel that it is okay to hate... if you did not, you would not listen to the music as entertainment.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:18 PM on July 10, 2002
Five Fresh Fish, No I don't believe that everything we see/hear affects us. Why? Because I believe that we can tell the difference between right and wrong.
Take for instance any "action" movie. You see people all the time shooting other people, yet, you know that it is wrong. You still find the movie entertaining.
I do not live in a vacuum as you so put it. I understand that there are things like racism, and hatered towards other types of people. And yes, as much as I can't stand the fact that every single fricking group of people thinks they are better than the other groups, I understand that some people have the right to that opinion. But it doesn't mean I support those opinions. If you watch a movie that has the theme of racism through out, does that mean you support it? No.
Entertainment is just that. Entertainment. If you are not able to realize that it is just entertainment, then try relaxing and actually enjoying it, rather than analyzing it.
posted by thebwit at 8:13 AM on July 11, 2002
Take for instance any "action" movie. You see people all the time shooting other people, yet, you know that it is wrong. You still find the movie entertaining.
I do not live in a vacuum as you so put it. I understand that there are things like racism, and hatered towards other types of people. And yes, as much as I can't stand the fact that every single fricking group of people thinks they are better than the other groups, I understand that some people have the right to that opinion. But it doesn't mean I support those opinions. If you watch a movie that has the theme of racism through out, does that mean you support it? No.
Entertainment is just that. Entertainment. If you are not able to realize that it is just entertainment, then try relaxing and actually enjoying it, rather than analyzing it.
posted by thebwit at 8:13 AM on July 11, 2002
You feel that it is okay to promote hateful ideas through music.
Think on it, please.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:55 AM on July 11, 2002
Think on it, please.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:55 AM on July 11, 2002
fff, I feel that it is not okay to censor either what somebody wishes to write or what somebody chooses to listen to. Just because your personal constitution is so weak and frail that you are powerless to distinguish between what you hear as music and what you believe to be real and true does not mean that the rest of us share your same weakness. I suggest you grow a spine.
Also, Kevs, those were crafty lyrics. What are names of the albums they appeared on?
posted by vito90 at 9:09 AM on July 11, 2002
Also, Kevs, those were crafty lyrics. What are names of the albums they appeared on?
posted by vito90 at 9:09 AM on July 11, 2002
The first one is by Binary Star which would mean its either on "Waterworld" or "Masters of the Universe". I'm pretty sure the second song by Mos Def is on "Black on Both Sides", but it could be some of the shit he did with Talib Kweli and Black Star.
posted by SweetJesus at 10:41 AM on July 11, 2002
posted by SweetJesus at 10:41 AM on July 11, 2002
At what point have I said that Eminem should be censored, Vito? You are not reading what I am writing.
As for the rest of your comment, gettaclue already. There are endless studies that show time and again that what people see and hear is undoubtedly influencial on their thinking.
I don't think you're reading very carefully. Please go back and try again.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:50 AM on July 11, 2002
As for the rest of your comment, gettaclue already. There are endless studies that show time and again that what people see and hear is undoubtedly influencial on their thinking.
I don't think you're reading very carefully. Please go back and try again.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:50 AM on July 11, 2002
Vito...
The One Man Army lyrics are off a song he did with Athletic Mic League on AML's "The Thrill is Gone" CD or as a single on vinyl. The song is "Lyrictricity".
The Mos Def song is "Re-Definition" off of the Blackstar CD with Talib Kweli.
posted by Kevs at 3:26 PM on July 11, 2002
The One Man Army lyrics are off a song he did with Athletic Mic League on AML's "The Thrill is Gone" CD or as a single on vinyl. The song is "Lyrictricity".
The Mos Def song is "Re-Definition" off of the Blackstar CD with Talib Kweli.
posted by Kevs at 3:26 PM on July 11, 2002
Doubting that vito's still around protesting that he's immune to his audio-visual inputs, but if he is, he should check out the Bugs Bunny study of college students.
"A study of college students showed they were 25 percent more likely to be aggressive after watching a "Bugs Bunny" cartoon than students watching a travelogue..."
I repeat: those who listen to negative-message music will develop tolerance and perhaps even habits of negative attitudes. To deny it is to display deep ignorance of countless studies that prove this fact.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:51 AM on July 13, 2002
"A study of college students showed they were 25 percent more likely to be aggressive after watching a "Bugs Bunny" cartoon than students watching a travelogue..."
I repeat: those who listen to negative-message music will develop tolerance and perhaps even habits of negative attitudes. To deny it is to display deep ignorance of countless studies that prove this fact.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:51 AM on July 13, 2002
Hahaha!
Bugs Bunny!!!
Five Fresh Fish, that's great. You are some piece of work. I salute you.
posted by vito90 at 12:36 PM on July 16, 2002
Bugs Bunny!!!
Five Fresh Fish, that's great. You are some piece of work. I salute you.
posted by vito90 at 12:36 PM on July 16, 2002
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Well, at least he described his "art" correctly.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:20 PM on July 9, 2002