July 18, 2002

7:25 AM

Follow-up on this thread: the city council of Moscow, Idaho has banned bare breasted women in response to three roommates who staged a roving topless car wash to raise rent money. A sign declaring, "Sticks and stones may break my bones but breasts will never hurt me," reflected the view of most residents who packed the council chambers. Two women pulled off their shirts after the council approved the ordinance. I'm thinking a mass protest is in order - thousands of women should converge on Moscow, Idaho and pull their shirts off. Fight the power!
posted by RylandDotNet (82 comments total)

The council's 5-1 vote on Monday makes it a misdemeanor for women to display anything more than the cleavage between their breasts.

So, patriotism is out? What if you display a sense of hopelessness?
posted by ColdChef at 7:28 AM on July 18, 2002

Here we go again. . Ooooh, naked breast posts!Gentlemen, start your engines
posted by aacheson at 7:36 AM on July 18, 2002

Although I enjoy the occasional breast, I have to agree with the court system on this one.
posted by bradth27 at 7:44 AM on July 18, 2002

Nudity has always been an effective tool in leading people to freedom.
posted by insomnyuk at 7:44 AM on July 18, 2002

I learned that it is also legal for women to be topless in DC. I kinda like the carwash idea. Anybody know of a good space with water hookup and good road access?

I've been seeing lots of dirty cars that need washing around here. Any one want to help?
posted by Red58 at 7:55 AM on July 18, 2002

This really makes no sense. Why can't women show their nipples if men can?

Breasts aren't genitals.

I think it's partly societal conditioning (we've been conditioned to believe in covering up the breasts). But that conditioning probably has its roots in a society run by (straight) men, who only care about covering up anything that will tempt them. If it will tempt women, they don't care.

That doesn't really explain why men can't expose their penises in public, but maybe that can be explained by a desire to cover up all genitals, male or female.
posted by Tin Man at 7:59 AM on July 18, 2002

This post is completely my personal opinion. Tin Man, straight men don't want to see other penises because:

1) they don't want to feel threatened by other's men's penises
2) they don't want their women to see some other guy's penis and want it cause it's bigger
3) if they are afraid of having desires for other men, they don't want to be tempted
4) an entire culture has been built up on the idea that women's naked bodies are beautiful and that men's bodies are not (I don't agree at all - men's bodies are no more or less attractive than women's)
5) it's embarrassing when it gets cold and there's shrinkage
6) it's embarrassing when penises get erect at inopportune moments
posted by Red58 at 8:10 AM on July 18, 2002

Thanks, red. You just dredged up all my worst memories of the eighth grade.
posted by ColdChef at 8:18 AM on July 18, 2002

The council's ruling probably won't stand, they should have gone after the carwashers from a business license standpoint (they were setting up the carwash whenever they "needed money," which was apparently often). The council could have limited non-licensed business operations (car washes, bake sales, etc.) to once a month, once every six months, etc.

Then again, Moscow would probably end up with a topless car wash in April, a topless bake sale in May, a topless lemonade stand in June, ... hmm ...
posted by whatnot at 8:20 AM on July 18, 2002

Although I enjoy the occasional breast, I have to agree with the court system on this one.

For what possible reasons?

(It wasn't a court, it was a city council.)
posted by rushmc at 8:21 AM on July 18, 2002

Rushmc-

Yeah, thanks for correcting me. I was working on memory of the case instead of reading the post again. I went back and actually read the update this time. However, I am all too familiar with city council meetings, and believe me, they have all the power of the court.... in a small town like the one I live in, at least.
Anyway, I just feel that at this time, public nudity may not be the appropriate thing to participate in. We men are some nasty beasts, and I can visualize women being harassed for walking around with their tops off.... not to mention groping, copping, dragging off into the bushes....
And it opens up a whole new can of worms as far as sexual harassment lawsuits go. Believe me, if a man can get fired or fined for staring at a woman's cleavage.... Good Lord, imagine the lawsuits that could come out of this kind of action.
And where do we draw the line on public nudity? If it's okay for a 20 year old, how about a 12 year old? If it's "perfectly natural" for a person to walk around with no clothes on, where do we draw the line? It's just way too large of an issue to deal with, especially in light of circumstances. This is a fairly small incident, with no real value to come from the decision, other than some horny guys get to see boobs. If there was a way to prove health risks or lower standards of living from women being forced to wear clothes, than I might change my mind.
I would love to see it happen, really, I would. But I think it would be in the best interest to keep it from happening.
posted by bradth27 at 8:36 AM on July 18, 2002

I could be mistaken, but last I heard women in NYC had the right to go around topless because it was determined to be sexist that men were allowed to be topless and women weren't. Now this makes sense to me. And no, that's not my testosterone speaking.

I think the "nothing more than cleavage" thing is going to get a lot of rights activists up in a tizzy because it's basically making public breastfeeding a misdemeanor.
posted by LuxFX at 8:45 AM on July 18, 2002

I agree with the public breastfeeding comment. I do think it will get people all worked up. However, I also think it should not be allowed either. I know, I know, it's a natural thing and all.... but so is urination. And If I whip it out and pee in the fountain at the mall, I will be arrested.
When men see a woman breast-feeding, we don't automatically think, "Oh, how sweet. look at that woman feeding her child in a perfectly normal and natural fashion." We think, "Hey, wonder if I can see some nipple there..."

Sad but true.
posted by bradth27 at 8:55 AM on July 18, 2002

Ugh. I will never understand men.
posted by aacheson at 9:01 AM on July 18, 2002

When I see someone nursing a baby in public, I think that baby is lucky to have such a conscientious mother.

Your "peeing in public is the same thing as breastfeeding in public" argument didn't hold any water (unfortunate pun) in the other thread brad, and it won't hold up here, either
posted by whatnot at 9:03 AM on July 18, 2002

Oh dear, no I'm going to have to boycott traveling to Idaho. And I was so looking forward to the square dance convention in August. Rats.

...makes it a misdemeanor for women to display anything more than the cleavage between their breasts.

Sometimes, I actually prefer just the cleavage. It's one of those secret weapons women have to turn us into mumbling morons that bend to their will.
posted by jonmc at 9:07 AM on July 18, 2002

Red58: Other reasons may include:

7) Avoiding frostbite.
8) Avoiding sunburn.
9) Avoiding burns from splashing grease while cooking.
10) Avoiding getting your willy squished when clothes would have otherwise prevented it.
11) Prevention of nefarious ball-dangling.
12) Loss prevention for detachable willies.
13) Avoiding the adhesive effect of hot vinyl seats.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:18 AM on July 18, 2002

I'm a straight male. Seeing women breastfeeding doesn't offend me, nor does it turn me on. There's a pretty huge difference between feeding a child and taking a piss, using the "they're both biological functions" argument is idiotic. Eating and pissing are both biological functions, would you extend your comparison that far? How about breathing?

Seeing breasts won't instantly turn every straight male into a rapist, no more than seeing a bikini at the beach will. We've already got laws against rape, and penalties for engaging in it. Citing a law or bylaw as an attempt to curb rape is purely an attempt to obscure the puritanical views that really inspired the law.

As was stated earlier there are legitimate ways to stop the topless carwash, such as operating a business without a license.

Hell, my home town allows women to go topless. It's essentially become a non-issue, even at the local beaches its extremely rare to see *horrors* a breast.
posted by substrate at 9:19 AM on July 18, 2002

it's not as if women are in the grocery store with no top on, most places still enforce the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. so what we're talking about is basically someone in their backyard or maybe a park, laying out in the sun. any other instances of topless women would be very rare - how often do you even see men walking around without a shirt on? here in austin women are allowed to go topless but you only ever really see it in parks. i'm sure most women don't want to attract attention to their breasts any more than they already do but it's unfair to impose such sexist restrictions on them. i think it's grosse when men have boobs but there is no law forcing them to cover up. and as far as nursing in public... GROW UP - if you get all hot and bothered when you see a kid breastfeeding then you really should masturbate more often or spend more time at titty bars.
posted by ggggarret at 9:20 AM on July 18, 2002

"GROW UP - if you get all hot and bothered when you see a kid breastfeeding then you really should masturbate more often or spend more time at titty bars."

Damn straight.

As many European, Mexican, and Brazilian locales have shown, bare breasts are not an incitement to rape. Topless women abound, and it's no big deal.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:32 AM on July 18, 2002

I could be mistaken, but last I heard women in NYC had the right to go around topless because it was determined to be sexist that men were allowed to be topless and women weren't.

Here's a tip: If an action is taken on behalf of women (say, going topless), and the biggest backers of said plan are ogling, neanderthal men, then that action is most likely not in the interests of the aforementioned women.
posted by laz-e-boy at 9:38 AM on July 18, 2002

Your "peeing in public is the same thing as breastfeeding in public" argument didn't hold any water (unfortunate pun) in the other thread brad, and it won't hold up here, either

Yes, it does. However, if you insist on stating the difference being that the penis is a sexual organ and that the female breast is not, then I will use another argument.
My anus. Say I take a poop in a mall, into a tupperware container, and put it in my briefcase to throw away at a later time.
If you want to refer to the anus as a sexual organ, or want to refer to it as a genital ( since it is used in sexual situations, although not for sexual reproduction), I will ahve to say that the breast argument ( not being a sexual organ) would be invalid also, as they are used quite frequently for sexual stimulation in a similiar fashion.
My point is, there are some things that we do, however natural, that may not be appropriate for us to see in public.
GROW UP - if you get all hot and bothered when you see a kid breastfeeding then you really should masturbate more often or spend more time at titty bars.
I agree. I'm not a troll, nor am I conservative.
And this thread is going way off topic.
The argument is for women to have the right to hold topless car washes, for Pete's sake. In this manner, the breast is clearly being used in a sexual manner, and therefore these women should not be allowed to perform this service without sufficient clothing. Breastfeeding and topless car washes are two different things.
If you maintain that women should be able to breastfeed in public because it is not intended to arouse anyone else in a sexual manner, it still has nothing to do with this story. These women are clearly using the breast as a sexual object in order to make money.
posted by bradth27 at 10:22 AM on July 18, 2002

In this manner, the breast is clearly being used in a sexual manner, and therefore these women should not be allowed to perform this service without sufficient clothing.

Plenty women use their eyelashes to bat at males in a sexual manner. Should they have to wear sunglasses?

These women are clearly using the breast as a sexual object in order to make money.

Why, the tone of your post curiously seems to insinuate that there is something wrong with that.
posted by adampsyche at 10:28 AM on July 18, 2002

Plenty women use their eyelashes to bat at males in a sexual manner. Should they have to wear sunglasses?
eyelash fetishes, last time I checked, are not in the norm range. I'm sure someone out there gets sexually stimulated by an eyelash, but it would not be considered a common trait.


And I do not think that there is anything wrong with women using their bodies for monetary gain. I believe that prostitution should be legalized across the board. I just don't want to see the act performed in public. What I was referring to was the argument of breastfeeding being used to back up this car wash.
posted by bradth27 at 10:35 AM on July 18, 2002

I wasn't talking about fetish, I was talking about them "being used in a sexual manner," as you put it.
posted by adampsyche at 10:39 AM on July 18, 2002

Yes, but I was referring to the fact that men ( and women) are attracted and stimulated sexually by the female breast. These women are playing upon that sexual attraction to the breast. When women are batting their eyelashes, they are not saying, "Look at my eyelashes, look how sexy they are." My comment against your eyebrow theory was pertaining to this. . Sorry for not being more specific.
posted by bradth27 at 10:42 AM on July 18, 2002

In this manner, the breast is clearly being used in a sexual manner, and therefore these women should not be allowed to perform this service without sufficient clothing.

what about men? should they be allowed to give car washes topless? many women consider the male chest as much a turn on as some men consider the female chest. or do you disagree with this statement as well?

where i live (toronto, ontario) women are allowed to go topless. this has been the case for nearly a decade now. no riots have broken out as a result of it. there hasn't been any reported increase of copulation in the streets. i've not heard of any of these women being molested or anything.

what's the damn problem? would men be pissed if regulations existed barring them from being topless? some might. i wear a shirt when i'm in public. that's me. however, i don't insist others do so because it's none of my business.

and as for aacheson and her lame-ass "i'll never understand men... here we go again!" nonsense. how old are you? 12? not every guy is dying to get a look at your breasts. some of us feel that if you want to be able to go topless on a blistering hot day then you should have that right, if only because men are allowed to.

i would expect that were the situation reversed--and legislation was attempting to restrict my freedom--you would back me up because of what's right. not because of your own lack of maturity and sexual satisfaction.
posted by dobbs at 10:48 AM on July 18, 2002

When women are batting their eyelashes, they are not saying, "Look at my eyelashes, look how sexy they are."

How would you know?

And what is the problem with saying "Look at my breasts, look how sexy they are."
posted by adampsyche at 10:51 AM on July 18, 2002

And what is the problem with saying "Look at my breasts, look how sexy they are."

Nothing. nothing at all. But if this is how woman should feel about their breasts, than they should not be allowed to condemn men for staring at their breasts while they breastfeed.

as for the eyelash statement, come on. Let's argue on something valid. This is the most exciting thing I've got going for me today.... at least so far.
posted by bradth27 at 11:02 AM on July 18, 2002

Brad, that woman feeding her child in a perfectly normal and natural fashion." We think, "Hey, wonder if I can see some nipple there..."
When you say "that", as in Who?
1. your wife feeding your child.
2. your mother feeding your siblings.
3. or a complete stranger, unlike the woman washing your car, that your paying.
If you answered 3 this is why most woman, use a small blanket. Yet you think it's ok to stare, I'm sure your mother liked that too.
In some countries it is not uncommon for folks to do a clothing change in public, yet discretely.

If your using body parts for signs, you may want to know:
When two people look at each other at the same moment, and both sets of pupils dilate, the result is what some people refer to as "love at first sight." This has to do with your pupils , not nipils.
I think a banting eye-lash is a gesture for need. Like, I have a speck in my eye, please help me remove it.
posted by thomcatspike at 11:45 AM on July 18, 2002

Dobbs, I was saying that in specific response to Bradth27's "When men see a woman breast-feeding, we don't automatically think, "Oh, how sweet. look at that woman feeding her child in a perfectly normal and natural fashion." We think, "Hey, wonder if I can see some nipple there..."
posted by aacheson at 11:59 AM on July 18, 2002

I think using a blanket is great. I am talking about exposing the breast to the general public.
I never once said that it was OKAY to stare at at a woman's breasts, by the way.
posted by bradth27 at 11:59 AM on July 18, 2002

brad: I seem to gather that you think it is ok for breastfeeding in public, but not the boobie wash. Correct?
posted by adampsyche at 12:14 PM on July 18, 2002

the fact that men ( and women) are attracted and stimulated sexually by the female breast

*Some* are.

Just because it happens a lot in the culture you grew up in, does _not_ make it a human universal.

Some people in Africa, when shown a picture of an American woman in a bikini, laughed uproariously at the ridiculousness of a woman hiding something nonsexual (to them, her breasts) while at the same time revealing something extremely sexual (to them, her thighs).

People are way too freaky about breasts in this culture. You'll get over it, eventually (or the next generation or the next finally will).

Maybe it's from having lost breastfeeding as the norm for most people for a couple / few generations? (i.e. nature has primed us to "want boobs" on a very deep level, and when we are deprived as babies, we end up as adults with strange fixations about them).

Let the boobies be free, I say! Whether working or playing, for fun or whatever.

And breastfeeding is *not* the same as taking a dump.

Breasts are _mammary glands_. We are _mammals_. The essence of both facts is that women's breasts were designed to give milk, a feeding action, which is not considered out of the ordinary in public.

Shitting in public is considered rude, though, and should remain so. It's the most soiled part of the body, blah blah diseases fecal contamination blah blah.
posted by beth at 12:25 PM on July 18, 2002

most soiled part of the body, blah blah diseases fecal contamination blah blah

*New Tag!*
posted by ColdChef at 12:33 PM on July 18, 2002

adampsyche,

I think breastfeeding in public is fine, yes. And I also think washing your car is fine. (or someone else's car , for that matter.) But I think public nudity is not acceptable. If the breast is covered while breastfeeding, yes, I have no problem with that. If the women are wearing a top while washing the car, I have no problem with that.

beth,
Breastfeeding in public SHOULD be considered something normal. But the breast should be sufficiently cover-
Oh to hell with it. I give up. Show your boobs, blah blah blah.
Now, can we all join hands and sing campfire songs?
posted by bradth27 at 12:36 PM on July 18, 2002

That's more like it!

Kumbaya...
posted by adampsyche at 12:45 PM on July 18, 2002

Thanks, adampsyche. Next thing you know, you guys will be changing my opinion on religion.


"Metafilter. Changing opinions and baring breasts - 24 hours a day."
posted by bradth27 at 12:53 PM on July 18, 2002

When women are batting their eyelashes, they are not saying, "Look at my eyelashes, look how sexy they are."

Bats eyelashes at everyone...
posted by jonmc at 12:57 PM on July 18, 2002

Anyway, I just feel that at this time, public nudity may not be the appropriate thing to participate in. We men are some nasty beasts, and I can visualize women being harassed for walking around with their tops off.... not to mention groping, copping, dragging off into the bushes....
And it opens up a whole new can of worms as far as sexual harassment lawsuits go. Believe me, if a man can get fired or fined for staring at a woman's cleavage.... Good Lord, imagine the lawsuits that could come out of this kind of action.

When men see a woman breast-feeding, we don't automatically think, "Oh, how sweet. look at that woman feeding her child in a perfectly normal and natural fashion." We think, "Hey, wonder if I can see some nipple there..."

Ahh, I see, so women should be treated inequitably because men can't control themselves? Talk about blame the victim. It's men who have the problem here, and if the claim is that the male gender loses all sense of self-control at the sight of a breast,.. well, that's just pathetic. Get a grip, boys.
posted by Medley at 1:16 PM on July 18, 2002

if a football team was out there washing cars, topless... i'm sure lots of women would stop in for a wash or at least honk. i doubt any legal troubles would come of it. the fact is that boobs are evil and cause many men to "freak out" or "go crazy" at the very sight of them, thus causing a potentially hazardous traffic situation and driving all the male chest operated car washes out of business. we can't have our economy held hostage by bare chested women. if this were to get out of hand... it would be devastating. there would hardly be a job left out there for us guys since everyone would be trying to capitalize on the whole boob craze.
posted by ggggarret at 1:27 PM on July 18, 2002

Listen, I thought we had this all cleared up. Everyone, next time you are in public, please show your breasts. Breasts, genitals, knees, elbows, whatever.
Show them proud, and scream, "THIS IS PERFECTLY NATURAL!"

Please, I beg of you.

I love everyone. I love breastfeeding Moms. I love topless girls at the car wash. I love 500 pound woman who plop their gigantic sweaty breasts in my face and proclaim, "Look at my breasts! Aren't they sexy?"

Yes, I will scream, YES! You are sexy! Your breasts are sexy! (Except when you are breastfeeding or washing a car. At that moment, you are displaying your natural beauty.)
Excuse me while I pull out my tupperware......
posted by bradth27 at 1:29 PM on July 18, 2002

I don't get it. Why are you pulling out tupperware? To collect the sweat from the gigantic sweaty breasts?
posted by Tin Man at 1:44 PM on July 18, 2002

no, silly. to take a crap in it. see above.
posted by ColdChef at 1:46 PM on July 18, 2002

In my previous posts, I made mention of a certain act involving tupperware in a mall.
This was, of course, before my enlightenment.
posted by bradth27 at 1:48 PM on July 18, 2002

Public nudity is a public safety issue, I guess. For the sake of all men driving vehicles, please, keep your clothes on.
posted by insomnyuk at 1:56 PM on July 18, 2002

And yet how many of the people who feel women should not reveal their breasts are also abhorred by the mid-East men who feel that women should not reveal their faces?
posted by five fresh fish at 2:05 PM on July 18, 2002

4?
posted by ODiV at 3:04 PM on July 18, 2002

ODiV, you forgot to finish that number. As we all know, the answer to everything is 42.

Still, funny as hell.
posted by bradth27 at 3:11 PM on July 18, 2002

obligatory comment.
posted by quonsar at 3:24 PM on July 18, 2002

Okay, bradth27, since you insisted, I suppose I should put my boobie where my mouth is. Or rather, where my child's mouth used to be.



See what a good latch she's got? :) (mouth open wide, lower lip turned out).

ObExplanation: I am posting this to show that you don't have to have a cloth over you to be reasonably non-shocking while breastfeeding. The picture was taken in my house, at my request, and is one of just a couple that I have of me breastfeeding my daughter.

You may be able to see that if I were surrounded by onlookers, it would be tough for them to get a peek of areola, except for the lucky few who were at a certain angle, and even then they'd really have to intend to look right at it.
posted by beth at 3:29 PM on July 18, 2002

Okay Beth, thanks. I'm getting out the digital camera now, and will take a picture and post it as soon as I can find some tupperware around here.
posted by bradth27 at 3:39 PM on July 18, 2002

beth, I'm starting to see what you're getting at, but I'm not fully persuaded. More evidence, please.
posted by bingo at 3:58 PM on July 18, 2002

MetaFilter: Home of pre-teen nipple-sucking photos!
posted by Danelope at 4:18 PM on July 18, 2002

Beth: let me just say that was very brave of you to put that picture here. Regardless of what our peanut gallery may say. Wow. Okay, you convinced me.
posted by ColdChef at 5:07 PM on July 18, 2002

Bingo: ha!
posted by adampsyche at 5:34 PM on July 18, 2002

Go beth! [great shot. I think i'm finally jelous, of that whole mum-baby bond thing. uhoh.]
posted by dabitch at 5:37 PM on July 18, 2002

Danelope, "pre-teen" must mean something else on your planet.
posted by bingo at 5:52 PM on July 18, 2002

if the claim is that the male gender loses all sense of self-control at the sight of a breast,.. well, that's just pathetic. Get a grip, boys.

I agree it would be nice if you could convince one hundred million American men (and probably some Canadians) to "get a grip," but how exactly do you propose to do this?
posted by kindall at 6:02 PM on July 18, 2002

Beth: my new hero. :)
posted by donkeyschlong at 6:09 PM on July 18, 2002

donkeyschlong, I completely agree. I am in awe of Beth and her astonishing bravery. I had a lot of fun in this thread, and it made a rather dull day bearable for me. When Beth posted that photo, it floored me.

I think we should all take a vote as to Beth being the official MetafilterGirl.

"Metafilter - All Beth, all the time."
posted by bradth27 at 6:21 PM on July 18, 2002

I agree it would be nice if you could convince one hundred million American men (and probably some Canadians) to "get a grip," but how exactly do you propose to do this?

Kindall -- you've got to be kidding? Honestly, are you saying that the sight of a naked breast would lead men to rape and pillage as bradth27 has suggested? Is my LL Bean t-shirt really all that's keeping civilization together? Good grief.

and if you were making a stupid pun... whatever.. carry on
posted by Medley at 7:41 PM on July 18, 2002

thanks for the kudos, folks. :)

But seriously, it shouldn't have to require much bravery for a mom to just feed her kid. Breastfeeding is expediency at its finest - simple, soothing, nourishing, portable, and all accomplished with the most beautiful milk containers ever created.

I'm not really that brave, btw. I'm a closet exhibitionist.
posted by beth at 7:59 PM on July 18, 2002

But what good is it in a closet?

* ducks *

Seriously, thanks for the best use of breaking the rules (inline images! aah!) to derail a thread I have ever seen. Now, we see. Or rather, we don't see.
posted by yhbc at 8:31 PM on July 18, 2002

Well done, Beth. Breast-feeding is a beautiful thing and it is a shame that there is such a stigma attached to it that most women are too embarrassed to do it in public.

On the other hand, there is a time and place for public nudity and the local car wash is neither.
posted by dg at 8:45 PM on July 18, 2002

Danelope, "pre-teen" must mean something else on your planet.

Well, I'm assuming that beth's baby is, y'know, less than thirteen years old. Otherwise, there are serious issues at work far beyond the scope of a topless carwash.
posted by Danelope at 10:06 PM on July 18, 2002

Brad strikes me as the kind of ass I had to deal with today, who sat and stared at me nursing my new son, hoping to see something that he could construe as sexual so that he could get himself worked up into a tizzy. I eventually had to ask him if he was staring because he was thirsty and needed a drink on such a hot day. That embarrassed him enough to leave us be.

We men are some nasty beasts, and I can visualize women being harassed for walking around with their tops off.... not to mention groping, copping, dragging off into the bushes....

Men have been known to do this anyway -- how many women are grabbed when fully clothed and then raped? How many fully clothed women were doused with water and groped in NYC a couple of years ago after some parade?

Nothing that women choose or do not choose to wear or do is going to persuade or dissuade a man who is intent on taking unacceptable liberties with her body. The lack of self-control of the gropers and rapists and oglers is not something that women can fix if we just keep ourselves covered up. Even in the Victorian era some men were incapable of exhibiting appropriate behaviour. Women were not responsible for that then and we aren't responsible for that now.
posted by Dreama at 10:19 PM on July 18, 2002

Honestly, are you saying that the sight of a naked breast would lead men to rape and pillage as bradth27 has suggested?

No, but it will lead men to go "woohoo! I gots to get me some of dat!" Which is what we were talking about, I thought. Sorry, I didn't know we were talking about, like, raping and pillaging.
posted by kindall at 10:24 PM on July 18, 2002

People for the Ethical Treatment of Breasts
posted by quarsan at 2:36 AM on July 19, 2002

Kindall, read the thread; someone stated earlier: "We men are some nasty beasts, and I can visualize women being harassed for walking around with their tops off.... not to mention groping, copping, dragging off into the bushes...."

I would guess the dragging into the bushes was not for purposes of tiddlywinks.

The fetishization and objectification of the breast is really a bit over the top. Perhaps if women and men were both allowed to be topless, men would grow the hell up and realize that boobies are just another body part... sometimes fun to play with, but nothing to get into a lather about at the mere sight of.
posted by Medley at 4:25 AM on July 19, 2002

Preach on, Sister Dreama. I like the way you put all of that so succinctly. Well said.

(And for those who care, my daughter Elena is 3 now but was about 5.5 months old when that pic was taken. She nursed until she was just shy of 2 years old.)

(Well, I mean, we had breaks and so on, for eating solid food, sleeping, playing, etc).
posted by beth at 6:44 AM on July 19, 2002

Dreama,
I actually agree with a lot of what you have said. However, if you read my posts, you will see that
1- I am not an ass. I was generally having a bit of fun, and trying to state how some men would do exactly what you said that you had to go through. I never said I have done that, nor would I.
2- I agree that women are not responsible for a man's actions. But there are such things as preventive measures, and starting slow and in a proper manner. I believe that such a thing (public nudity) can and will be introduced to America, and SHOULD be. But starting a topless car wash and associating the nudity with sexuality is not the way to begin. And that's what the topic was about.
3- I corrected myslef for mot being more specific early on in the thread about breastfeeding. Yes, I do believe that it is perfectly fine to breastfeed in public, as long as the breast is suffuciently covered. Why? Because of the situation you encountered. Unfortunate for you, but it is a reality. In previous jobs, I have placed people in the general public that would not have stopped there. Sexual agression is all too common among men, and it is hard for quite a few people, men or women, to differentiate between sexual and non-sexual nudity. ( My previous job involved placing criminals, rehab patients, and sex offenders back into society and making sure they acted accordingly. Trust me, if you would have said something like that to more than half of these people, they would not have walked away.)

I apologize to all that I have offended, but I think if you look back at my posts, you will find that I have taken all of this discussion in a light hearted manner, and feel that it is a subject that we can joke around a bit about.
And besides, you all changed my mind yesterday. I love nudity. bring it on!
posted by bradth27 at 7:15 AM on July 19, 2002

A friend of mine who lives near where this law would take effect writes the following (she tried to register and post, but registration is still closed):

Moscow, Idaho is about an hour away from me. It's the closest location
to me of a Wal-Mart, a Jo-ann's Fabric, a Wendy's, and dozens of other
shopping establishments. I have nursed my son (now almost 2, weaned at
15 1/2 months) publicly a number of times. For the record, I *never*
used a blanket, as that only makes breastfeeding more conspicuous. I
nursed him at 3 1/2 weeks, walking around a grocery store. You can hold
a nursing baby the same way you hold a sleeping one, and most people
assume that's what they're doing. Admittedly, nursing a toddler is a
whole different ballgame, but the kid's still gotta eat.

The issue here is not whether or not public nudity of the type at the
carwash is acceptable or not; if that's what they wanted to accomplish,
the ordinance should have been more narrowly written. Oregon, for
example, has written into law the express protection of public
breastfeeding as *not* being a violation of public decency. This is as
it should be. My job is to provide my children (the next due any day)
with the best possible food whenever they get hungry. Why should I be
penalized or possibly even ticketed for doing that? It's ludicrous. I'm
not responsible for men's reactions or fetishes or hangups or whatever;
that's their issue, not mine.

Yes, I do believe that it is perfectly fine to breastfeed in public,
as long as the breast is suffuciently covered.

"Suffuciently"? (sic) Sufficient for what? I happen to be a discreet
nurser, but that's only because I happen to be small-breasted and have a
good supply of nursing clothes. Everyone is not in this situation, and
many women with large breasts simply cannot nurse discreetly. Babies
often refuse to eat when covered by blankets, and why the hell shouldn't
they? No one else has to eat with a towel over their heads, so why
should a kid? Sometimes the areola's not completely covered by the
baby's mouth when you're nursing, and if you really wanted to, you could
see some pink skin. But so what? That's what they were intended for,
after all. Oh, and incidentally, you might find it interesting that even
in those Mideastern cultures where women are expected to cover
everything but face and hands, a bared breast for nursing is perfectly
acceptable.

Why? Because of the situation you encountered. Unfortunate for you,
but it is a reality.

Ridiculous. Following this same logic, Blacks should not be allowed to
eat with white people, because there is still racism and aggression.
Something is right because it's right, not because it's popular or
inoffensive.

I apologize to all that I have offended, but I think if you look back
at my posts, you will find that I have taken all of this discussion in a
light hearted manner, and feel that it is a subject that we can joke
around a bit about.

Is that supposed to make it all better? It's easy for you to joke about
it; the ordinance in no way impacts you.

The lesson? Don't saddle *me* with *your* morality.

posted by Medley at 8:24 AM on July 19, 2002

Yeah okay. I never argued this was a moral issue. Of course the ordinance impacts me. It impacts all of us, in one way or the other. However, This is a discussion thread, not a screaming match. Let's move on and admit that we have differing opinions, and leave it at that. It's a new day in Metafilter, and there are rabbits to see.
posted by bradth27 at 9:21 AM on July 19, 2002

A bit late, I guess... but to clarify for LuxFX:

The Federal District Court for the Second Circuit -- no, excuse me, apparently it was New York Superior Court -- held in a case involving some people in Rochester in 1992, that any law requiring women to cover anything men didn't have to cover violated the US Constitutional guarantee of Equal Protection.

The law, as I understand it, does *not* apply to people engaged in commercial pursuits; those taking advantage of the top-free-ness as a marketing ploy.
posted by baylink at 6:33 PM on July 19, 2002

I'm really not interested in agressive arguments from people who are not registered with this board. We can't email them back, we can't respond and know they'll see it, there is no profile and in general zero accountability. What Medley's friend thinks about anyone's morality is meaningless here.
posted by bingo at 11:32 PM on July 19, 2002

I call bullshit on that bingo. That's completely ad hominem. Either engage with the substance of an argument (regardless of who made it) or shut up. If registration were on at the time of this post, the person would have registered. Now that you've been so unconscionably rude, I'm pretty sure she won't be coming back when Matt does turn registration back on. Good on you for building a community, there. Congrats.

*mutters* and there are those who try to claim that mefi isn't a completely obnoxious boyzone.
posted by Medley at 2:23 PM on July 24, 2002

Metatalk.
posted by bingo at 3:35 PM on July 24, 2002

I don't think I've ever seen a thread have a winner, but Beth gets the blue ribbon here.
posted by Shadowkeeper at 4:05 PM on July 24, 2002

I believe that such a thing (public nudity) can and will be introduced to America, and SHOULD be. But starting a topless car wash and associating the nudity with sexuality is not the way to begin. And that's what the topic was about.

I corrected myslef for mot being more specific early on in the thread about breastfeeding. Yes, I do believe that it is perfectly fine to breastfeed in public, as long as the breast is suffuciently covered.

I think you're right: America is pretty much fubared on the nudity vs sex thing. Too many idjits who associate the mere sight of naked bodies with sex. Probably it's best for the change to be slow, 'cause otherwise people's heads will explode.

I think you're wrong: covering up breastfeeding is just stupid. Let's let the change start with that. Let's let babies and moms do what they're supposed to do, let them do it with pride, and let them do it whenever and whereever the baby is hungry. Kids are more important than this society's asinine hangups.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:25 PM on July 24, 2002

I wish I could've been part of this discussion (and many others at Metafilter, for that matter), but only now was I finally able to register here. As a Moscowan (people from Moscow, Idaho are unfortunately called Moscowans, instead of using the much cooler term 'Muscovite', as do residents of Moscow, Russia) it was fun for our little town to get some international recognition for a day or two as the result of Metafilter and other sites, even though things didn't end up the way I would've liked. It's also kind of sad that the primary reason we got any publicity is that people all over the world are amazed at Moscow residents being so uptight that we make toplessness illegal.

I have yet to hear a well-reasoned argument for banning toplessness. Oh well, our 15 minutes of fame are long over at this point. Still, it's been fun!
posted by Phatty Lumpkin at 2:07 AM on July 29, 2002

Welcome, Phatty. I prefer "Muscovite" as well. I hope this won't be the last time we hear from you.
posted by ColdChef at 9:47 AM on July 29, 2002