BSA Files for Bankruptcy Amid 300 Sexual Abuse Lawsuits
February 25, 2020 6:58 AM   Subscribe

 
This is just a ploy to get out of paying settlements, right? That's the usual reason this is done?
posted by haileris23 at 7:10 AM on February 25, 2020 [10 favorites]


Why does it seem like the worst crimes are so often found where morality and wholesomeness are loudly proclaimed?
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 7:14 AM on February 25, 2020 [67 favorites]


Burn the whole organization down. Fuckers.
posted by Nelson at 7:16 AM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]


You don't get to just declare chapter 11 and claim your pockets are empty. This triggers a lot of process and oversight wherein courts and appointed overseers go over all the finances and decide who gets what based on a lot of existing practice and precedent, and sees if the organization can survive (which is the point of chapter 11 bankruptcy; chapter 7 is "we give up, we're dead, pick over our corpse").

So it's not good insofar as it's an admission that they can't possibly cover the likely/possible outcomes of all the lawsuits, and it means the victims almost certainly won't get the kind of compensation they would otherwise. But it also means that the BSA has surrendered a lot of its autonomy and privacy in the adjudication of all of this, so maybe for the best in the long run for the truth to come out?
posted by fatbird at 7:17 AM on February 25, 2020 [29 favorites]


Honestly, this is great news for the victims. There will now be external oversight determining how the Boy Scouts can sell off land to meet settlements/awards. BSA is the kind of organization loads of people have made specific bequeathments to, land and and otherwise. Chapter 7 will allow stuff left to them in wills to be liquidated for Legal costs.
posted by EinAtlanta at 7:24 AM on February 25, 2020 [10 favorites]


so maybe for the best in the long run for the truth to come out?

It's also a warning to organizations that are determined to protect their esteemed pedophiles. We shouldn't just end with the organizations though. Get the records, pierce the corporate veil, sue those who were directly responsible for the coverups into the ground, and then salt said ground.

That will scare the living shit out of every executive of every youth organization in the country. Nothing will prompt them to make unbelievably quick action to out suspected pedophiles and get them away from children like being personally liable.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:25 AM on February 25, 2020 [21 favorites]


My understanding is that the BSA is not a terribly deep-pocketed organization, in itself. Most of the land—scout camps and such—are owned by local and regional councils, which are not subsidiaries, and have an arms-length relationship with BSA national. But the national organization seems to have been where the bulk of the rot was, so if this basically lops the head off the whole thing and lets the local and regional organizations go their own way, maybe that's for the best for everyone in the long run.
posted by Kadin2048 at 7:28 AM on February 25, 2020 [6 favorites]


I dropped out of Boy Scouts after only a few months; however as a city kid i was jealous of the camping trips etc. I do hope that Philmont and other huge tracts of land can somehow be saved or continue to be set aside, not just sold off to some rich asshole.
posted by notsnot at 7:29 AM on February 25, 2020 [13 favorites]


Basically, the BSA is taking a page out of the Catholic Church's playbook with this, filing bankruptcy at the national level while shifting assets to councils (which, lets note, are separate legal entities from the BSA.)

Also, there's the recent departure of the LDS from the BSA,which basically decimated Scouting in a very literal way.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:30 AM on February 25, 2020 [10 favorites]


I dropped out when they cracked down on making us wear our uniform to meetings.
posted by thelonius at 7:30 AM on February 25, 2020 [3 favorites]


Also, there's the recent departure of the LDS from the BSA,which basically decimated Scouting in a very literal way.

And the Southern Baptists heading to Trail Life USA.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:32 AM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]


This is just a ploy to get out of paying settlements, right? That's the usual reason this is done?

From Jezebel:
However, by going to bankruptcy court, the Boy Scouts of America is able to put those lawsuits on hold to figure out its next move, according to The Guardian. A spokesman for the Boy Scouts, Evan Roberts, offered the following statement:
“Scouting programs will continue throughout this process and for many years to come. Local councils are not filing for bankruptcy because they are legally separate and distinct organizations.”
The Catholic Church, another institution effected by changes to statute-of-limitations laws, has been pursuing a similar strategy to limit payouts to victims. By filing for bankruptcy and halting the lawsuits, the Boy Scouts of America has given itself a window to negotiate with victims, presumably with the aim of rolling all claims into a single, final resolution, as Slate points out.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:33 AM on February 25, 2020 [4 favorites]


I lost interest in Scouting when they went after the atheists and LGBTQ+ scouts. Turns out the real problem was the pedophiles. Color me shocked.
posted by bshort at 7:34 AM on February 25, 2020 [54 favorites]


It's the generalized version of Trump's Mirror.
posted by Mitheral at 7:47 AM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]


As others have noted in prior Scouts BSA (half-heartedly renamed when they opened up the program to girls, but there's still the gender split in the small groups) threads, there's the national level of scouting, and the local operations, and they're not the same thing. This is not just because local councils are separate organizations, but also because like in any organization, local leadership can vary greatly from group to group.

In other words, I'm supportive of scouting at the local level, but the top level seems pretty rotten. I was hoping that with the departure of Mormons from scouting, the organization could modernize more easily, and now I'm hoping local councils can have more autonomy to do good things.

I'm cub scout pack leader, and part of a pack with a few girls who are racing through their advancements. One of them is on track to be Eagle in a year, her second year in the program, which is exciting to see kids so involved.

I got involved because I am an Eagle scout, and I enjoyed my time as a cub scout and boy scout, and now I'm scouting with my boys, who are enjoying the different things we do. I offered to be a pack leader because no one else was available, so now I'm in a position to decide what we do as a small group. I was able to join an existing organization, because while I wish I could join a Spiral Scouts group or another alternative scouting organization, there are none in our area. And our pack is pretty small as it is being a school-based organization, instead of operating out of a church, so trying to start an alternative scouting group in my area sounds like a lot of work that may not result in actually getting anyone to participate beyond our boys. So I'm doing what I can to shape my pack, though I'm tempted to get more involved with the local council, to do more to change the regional culture (like provide more outreach to diversify the scouts, and cut out the "Indian dress up" shit -- there are twenty four tribal entities in New Mexico, people should know better, especially here!).
posted by filthy light thief at 7:52 AM on February 25, 2020 [31 favorites]


Why does it seem like the worst crimes are so often found where morality and wholesomeness are loudly proclaimed?

Well loudly proclaiming immorality and depravity does give the impression it’s unsafe to leave kids there.

For a crime like that to be ignored, people have to be desperate for the institution you’ve co-opted to survive that they’re willing to overlook anything.
posted by Merus at 7:56 AM on February 25, 2020 [3 favorites]


Everyone I know of who's still involved in Scouting is pissed at the way the sins of the fathers are literally being visited on the sons. Everyone wants to see the dirty old men punished variously and painfully.But we're equally committed to giving today's kids a chance to be out in the woods and on the water. We take a lot of training to protect kids and we watch each other like hawks.

The victims deserve compensation (though what can make up for what they went through?) from BSA. The national organization was morally rotten, while the vast majority of local leaders were caring and enthusiastic.

The bankruptcy filing is a strategic move, no doubt. Will it save the local programs, which are already under real pressure from the departure of LDS and reactionary Old Guys? I don't know but I hope so. Last night I sat on two Boards Of Review for kids making rank and they are good kids. I asked one what he likes about the program and he said"Just being outside doing anything." Me, too!

My sons are almost done in Scouts and I am still happy to help the troop if it means more kids get outside.

But the old pervs...they really fucked it up for everyone. It makes me despair about being just to victims and also offering adventures to current and future Scouts.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:08 AM on February 25, 2020 [15 favorites]


This is the third rail for me. I grew up as a Boy Scout. I didn't realize then, but do now, that the leaders make all the difference. The leadership at the National level is beyond saving. A friend emailed me this morning, he and I were Scouts together, and he said "this is the end...all these guys want to do is protect their retirements...they don't care about what is right". He has had, because of his 30+ years in Scouting leadership, access to talk about what is right. Formal proposals presented to leadership. NO RESPONSE. Read that again. They responded with silence.

Now, a Scout is to tell the truth. They are brave. They try to live the Scout values. By hiding, stonewalling and not letting the truth out, the National leadership have demonstrated cowardice. Demonstrated ethical flexibility. Demonstrated that sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do to get along. So fucking ridiculous.

My son was semi-interested in Cub Scouts this year. We signed up before the school year began. Our first activity: sell popcorn. Now, I get the fundraising aspect required of these sorts of organizations (My wife is the Cookie Mom for her Girlscout Troop) but the product is poor at best. People are buying out of nostalgia and sheer sympathy. Girl Scouts, on the other hand, have a delicious product that is is 3-4 times less expensive to purchase. How much do you think Cub Scout Popcorn will cost next year? $25 a bag? It is within reason to think it will be so.

Shortly after my son was set to begin scouting, the BSA mortgaged Philmont, their huge park in New Mexico. I had an amazing time there with boys who turned into the best friends of my life. Something inside me broke. I realized I could not, in good faith, participate in this organization. Everything that they did wrong in the past...they let fester...they didn't tell the truth. They weren't brave.

I just received an email this morning from the cub scout leader that included this stock language from BSA:
"The recent choice of Scouts BSA (Boy Scouts) to declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy has nothing to do with us. None of our programming will change; although the yearly fee come September will increase from $70 to $110. This is a large increase, but we may also be more proactive in allowing for scholarships.

Scouts BSA as a national organization has a net worth of $9 billion, mostly in real estate. It obtained a $1 billion mortgage on its largest property, Philmont, before declaring bankruptcy. This is not a liquidation. It is a reorganization of debt in order to make timely but responsible payments to sexual abuse cases going as far back as 50+ years. The biggest modern innovation is "two-deep" leadership so that one adult is never left alone with one scout."


A sad day. My old Scout Master, would be having a few choice words with these folks.
posted by zerobyproxy at 8:12 AM on February 25, 2020 [18 favorites]


Why does it seem like the worst crimes are so often found where morality and wholesomeness are loudly proclaimed?

My guess, two primary things: obviously, camouflage—what better sheep’s clothing for predators, than a pious, moral, religious (or quasi-religious) institution?; and also, opportunity: it seems to be that, once an organization has a solid reputation as moral or etc., people forget the one piece of actual wisdom from Reagan, “trust—but verify”. Just because an institution or organization has a solid reputation as (e.g.) a safe space for kids, doesn’t mean that every local iteration is automatically run by good people who won’t harm anyone.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:14 AM on February 25, 2020 [4 favorites]


"two-deep" leadership so that one adult is never left alone with one scout

Why does this make me feel ... twice as nervous?
posted by riverlife at 8:33 AM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]


we're equally committed to giving today's kids a chance to be out in the woods and on the water. We take a lot of training to protect kids and we watch each other like hawks.

I know so many good scout leaders and parents, but I would never, ever have allowed my child anywhere near the organization, for a wide variety of reasons.

My wish is that a few long time leaders will be able to make connections and reinvent a new program that carries forward all the best parts of scouting, while leaving behind the misogyny, discrimination, religion, and overall patriotic bullshit that has become entwined with the Boy Scouts, but I know what a hard road that would be.

There is a deep appetite in this country for a gender-blind, inclusive program like scouting that is focused on outdoor adventures, teamwork, and learning respect for each other and the environment. There are people in scouting now who know how to build that program. I'd love for them to get together and create something relevant for kids today.
posted by anastasiav at 8:35 AM on February 25, 2020 [11 favorites]


My experience with the Boy Scouts was a mixed one, I truly enjoyed the hiking and camping out, but the troop turned out to be kind of a safe harbor for older bullies who kind of gave free reign to their sadistic natures in varying degrees. The scoutmaster was this local legend type, a pediatrician who carved canoes out of a tree trunks and fully embodied back woods competence in the extreme. He was somewhat disdainful of me as memory serves, probably because of my reluctance to fully embrace the whole scouting ethos as he obviously did. As far as pedophilia goes, never saw any evidence of it, and I think I would have recognized it for what it was even at that tender age.
posted by e1c at 8:39 AM on February 25, 2020


Mod note: Deleted one derailing comment about the GSUSA, who are definitely more than just cookies.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 8:41 AM on February 25, 2020 [20 favorites]


I am the Scoutmaster of my Troop of ~50 boys.
In the 6 years I've been doing this, I've learned that the leadership in the troop make all the difference. Yes there are some troops that are very local council or national focused, just as there are others that are not. There are troops that are misogynistic, and there are those that are not.
Here's the thing - if you like the general idea of BSA, then go to different troops and see what they actually do, and make informed decisions. There are 4 troops in my immediate area, ranging from 15-50 scouts in each. We are all offering differing experiences.

As for the Chpt 11, the best I can hope for is that it lops the head off, and allows newer, more progressive leadership to assume control. Striking down the anti LGBTQ+ was a great step, now let's see them do more.

I've seen what good mentorship does for these kids, and I don't know of any other way to offer that at a level of magnitude that happens in the Troops.
posted by niteHawk at 8:46 AM on February 25, 2020 [7 favorites]


BSA also blew almost half a billion dollars preparing for the big international jamboree last year.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:49 AM on February 25, 2020 [7 favorites]


People are buying out of nostalgia and sheer sympathy. Girl Scouts, on the other hand, have a delicious product that is is 3-4 times less expensive to purchase

If we're honest, that's the same reason people buy Girl Scout cookies.
Around here, they're up to $5-6 a box, I don't think anyone believes that's a good deal.
posted by madajb at 8:55 AM on February 25, 2020 [5 favorites]


DOT Jr. is a member of Scouts BSA. He belongs to a troop that admits boys and girls, has some decidedly non-binary kids, Muslim kids, Hindu kids, and a half dozen ethnicities.

Last night they worked on the art merit badge, where DOT Jr. was one of several kids cheerfully drawing anime style stuff. A few weeks back, they had a week where they all played D&D. He got his engineering merit badge visiting the Harley Davidson museum and next weekend, he gets his geology merit badge visiting the natural history museum.

That's how his troop operates: diverse kids, choosing their own activities, doing cool stuff, mostly about science and art.

As noted by others, individual troops vary. But there are definitely troops that aren't just finishing schools for white conservative boys who like to praise Jesus and shoot things.

Not trying to deny anyone else's experience or minimize the shitshow at the national level. But bear in mind: it's a grassroots org, not a hierarchical one.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:00 AM on February 25, 2020 [20 favorites]


Aside from earning merit badges like lifesaving, I learned to jump in freezing-ass cold water and like it. I learned to hike long distances with a heavy pack and camp and cook and fistfight and smoke cigarettes. It was a rough and tumble troop that would not have gone easy on child molesters.

The 70s is a world away.
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:07 AM on February 25, 2020 [7 favorites]


The Boy Scouts of America has filed for bankruptcy, a sign of the century-old organization's financial instability as it faces some 300 lawsuits from men who say they were sexually abused as Scouts.
The BSA is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent."
posted by Fizz at 9:07 AM on February 25, 2020 [9 favorites]


> Deleted one derailing comment about the GSA

pssst it's GSUSA unless the comment was even more derailing than I think
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:07 AM on February 25, 2020 [6 favorites]


Mod note: heh, fixed
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:16 AM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]


Why does it seem like the worst crimes are so often found where morality and wholesomeness are loudly proclaimed?

Probably because it's not part of our primary level education. In other words, it needs to be explicitly put forth to children that the worst crimes are often found where morality and wholesomeness are loudly proclaimed.

Skepticism starts early. It certainly did with me. Without it, you're just more meat for the grinder. Maybe get this notion into the key articles of Scoutism. You get a badge for grasping it.
posted by philip-random at 9:20 AM on February 25, 2020 [9 favorites]


@madajb would you like to buy any of these? Seems like a money grab to me.

https://www.trails-end.com/store

The pricing reflects the money for the National Organization. There are good troops, councils and districts. The national leadership has gone sour. They don't reflect the scouts. That is the problem here. If there was a way to uncouple local scouting...replicate the good programs...take the great leaders and use them to train new leaders...well, that'd be a different ballgame.

The crass algebra here is: we're going broke because we mismanaged sex abuse allegations for 50 years so we are raising fees and fundraising costs to protect our livelihood. Not to make a better program. Not to engage boys. Not to provide role-models. No, this is about a bunch of people who want to retire well.
posted by zerobyproxy at 9:37 AM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]


I had nothing but wonderful experiences in the Boy Scouts. Lifetime friends and memories made, experienced things my parents would have exposed me to, etc. It shaped who I became as a person by instilling in me a love of camping and the outdoors. It's not at all surprising to me that an organization of three million people would have three hundred cases like this. A percentage of humans are shitheads who take advantage of others when they can.
posted by Patapsco Mike at 9:45 AM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]


Hello, I'm one of the leaders for my son's troop. I was suspicious of the organization to start with, but I found a welcoming, liberal sponsor at the UU church, and we grew to love scouting. One of the things that's struck me as I've been involved with the BSA for the past 4 years is how the organization really is changing -- allowing girls in; openly welcoming LGBTQIA+ kids -- and how that change is being understood and implemented at local and national levels.

When the LDS church split, there was a reckoning: LDS leaders said the scouts moved away from them, which, yes, we did, and it was a good thing. Some of the meanest, dumbest, son-of-a-bitch people I've ever met were LDS scout leaders.

I wasn't ready for the hit in funding, however; LDS individuals donated to all levels of the organization in disproportionate levels. Many different organizations have withdrawn funding from BSA over the years both for reasons of inclusivity and discrimination. Every change that the national org made in order to appease some of their funders seemed to wither support in another segment. Ultimately I think the separation of the LDS will be a net-positive thing, but we've got a long road to go before the organization is healthy again.
posted by boo_radley at 9:52 AM on February 25, 2020 [9 favorites]


My wish is that a few long time leaders will be able to make connections and reinvent a new program that carries forward all the best parts of scouting, while leaving behind the misogyny, discrimination, religion, and overall patriotic bullshit that has become entwined with the Boy Scouts

You know that the religion and patriotic BS was built in to the organization at its inception, yes? It hasn't become entwined with the Boy Scouts. If anything, it's been reduced in some places.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:17 AM on February 25, 2020 [3 favorites]


I quit Scouts because the meetings conflicted with the weekly broadcast of Alf.

I am not kidding.
posted by Automocar at 10:18 AM on February 25, 2020 [21 favorites]


I have had mixed experiences in Scouting, but I can believe the people who report positive experiences, both as Scouts and as leaders. (Briefly: I started Scouting in a small town in Wisconsin, and it was great; tried transferring to a troop in Chicago when I move there, and it was... not great.) I thought less fondly of them after it became apparent that they were being dominated by religious groups and were having their own "lavender scare." Still, I think that that sort of Big Blue Room-oriented experience can be valuable and rewarding in all sorts of ways.

Nevertheless, they need to be punished and not just have this handwaved away as "well, it's only a few hundred bad apples out of umpteen million." I saw that same sort of rationalization happen in the Catholic Church, which I was also raised in.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:32 AM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]



e1c: As far as pedophilia goes, never saw any evidence of it, and I think I would have recognized it for what it was even at that tender age.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here; you should stop.
posted by eyesontheroad at 10:42 AM on February 25, 2020 [34 favorites]


"well, it's only a few hundred bad apples out of umpteen million."

I know you were quoting an idea, HJ, but we should always push back against this phrase. It's continually pushed to mean the exact opposite. We all kn ow it's "A few bad apples spoil the whole bunch."
posted by notsnot at 10:45 AM on February 25, 2020 [11 favorites]


Many different organizations have withdrawn funding from BSA over the years both for reasons of inclusivity and discrimination
And that's what makes structural reform hard: the people you need to stick with you back away while you're distracted driving off the ones you actually want to get rid of. You literally can't win for losing.

Scouts has a century of tradition, so it's comparatively easier (but still a challenge!!) to get leaders compared to GSUSA which, in my town, lurches from year to year as a mom signs up and gets burned out and bails.

I was firmly on the side of standing up a girls troop because I knew we would get strong women and girls into our unit, and we could give them access to great camps and resources and trained adults. Our troop is diverse and weird and great and also the SM is the son of a previous SM and we are absolutely soaked in heritage. It's the best of both worlds and I wish every kid and adult could have as good an experience.

What a heart breaking shit show for everyone involved.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:03 AM on February 25, 2020 [4 favorites]


wenestvedt: "Everyone I know of who's still involved in Scouting is pissed at the way the sins of the fathers are literally being visited on the sons. Everyone wants to see the dirty old men punished variously and painfully.But we're equally committed to giving today's kids a chance to be out in the woods and on the water. We take a lot of training to protect kids and we watch each other like hawks."

Absolutely. The BSA press releases do take pains to point out that the vast majority of the cases in question occurred 30+ years ago, which means that most of us commenting here grew up in a Scouting organization that had child safety rules in place for very good reasons. The difference between the BSA and the Catholic Church is that the BSA knew there was a problem and tried to make changes to the training to prevent it. And it keeps getting more strict, which is a good thing. How they handled existing cases is up to the courts to determine, but the organization is very firm on child safety as a result of past history. Right now, every volunteer must do biannual child protection training AND consent to an annual background check. Any background check failure means permanent removal from the org. Every child in the program is asked to to annual child safety exercises with their parent/guardian to boot. BSA strongly encourages every parent to take the child protection training (it's not required for parents, just encouraged) but you cannot register as a volunteer unless it is done BEFORE you file the registration. Camping with a unit for more than 72 hours? You can't go unless you are a registered leader, including training and background check. The 72 hour limit is basically to allow Cub Scouts (5th grade and under) to do weekend camps with their parents/guardians without having to register and train every mom or dad who attends.

I've been a volunteer leader for my son's Cub Scout Pack for the last 6 years, and in April I turn in my Cubmaster patch (well, trading it for an Asst Scoutmaster patch) as he crosses to our Troop. He has had a lot of fun and I have too. But we are also in a liberal unit, in a liberal city in a fairly liberal Council, so that makes a huge difference. Local leadership drive the quality and character of any program. I can absolutely say that we would not have had the same positive experience in a more conservative area.

I had a good experience as a kid and am trying to pay it forward. I had great adult mentors and have tried to become one myself, to the benefit of the boys and girls I see every meeting. Whatever you think of the guys at National, remember that those of us on the ground are doing our best.
posted by caution live frogs at 11:13 AM on February 25, 2020 [13 favorites]


My personal, impractical plan would be to reach a settlement where they sell off half the camps to provide generous payments to the people who suffered due to the callous leadership. Then merge into the Girl Scouts organization, since the U.S. is one of three countries worldwide where scouting isn't co-ed. Yes, it would be a big disruption, but it's also the right thing to do.
posted by wnissen at 11:50 AM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]


I am an Eagle Scout. My father is an Eagle Scout. My grandfather was an Eagle Scout.

I had some good experiences in BSA, backpacking Yellowstone and so forth. I also had a lot of really bad experiences. Quite a lot of bullying and stuff. I was not personally sexually assaulted, though. The only real reason I finished was because I thought it would look good on my college applications or something.

I used to defend the Scouts but now I feel like they should go fuck themselves and that their time is over. They were kind of trying to fix some of their horribleness, which was encouraging, but between the Trump stuff and this - it's the last straw for me.

The skills you learn in BSA are great skills to learn. I'm really good at camping and shit and I am happy about that. But there has got to be a better, healthier, less traumatizing way for kids to develop those skills than the BSA.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:53 AM on February 25, 2020 [15 favorites]


I had a great time as a Scout, but I owe that to having good adult leaders (with the exception of one dad who was kind of a dick, but he got balanced out by the other adults). I earned my Eagle.

I sent that Eagle badges back to National in 2012 after their secret committee said, "Nope, sorry, LGBTQ people can't be Scouts or Scout leaders." A Scout is kind and welcomes everyone. A Scout is brave and stands up in public for what they believe in. National was run by cowards and bullies and fuck them.

I feel bad for everyone whose future Scout experiences may be tougher due to this restructuring, and I hope they come out with an organization that is friendlier and braver. I also hope everyone who ever did anything to hide sexual predators in Scouts is named in one lawsuit after another until the heat death of the universe.
posted by RakDaddy at 12:01 PM on February 25, 2020 [6 favorites]


would you like to buy any of these? Seems like a money grab to me.

I'm sure it is.
I'm just saying that when it comes to basically every kid fundraiser, most people are buying either because they are related to the kid in some fashion or they have fond memories of whatever organization just knocked on their door.
No one really needs one of those crappy chocolate bars, they just want to help the swim team buy new uniforms or whatever.

Personally, I have a policy of donating to every kid that has the moxie to knock on my door(fewer every year), but I never buy the product they are selling, instead I ask if I can just make a straight cash donation.
That way, I'm not stuck with even more gift wrap and a half a dozen hands don't get a cut of my money before it gets where it is supposed to go.
For example, a Girl Scout troop only gets about 10 percent of that $5 box of cookies, so my $10 check is the equivalent of selling 20 boxes of cookies.
posted by madajb at 12:09 PM on February 25, 2020 [7 favorites]


Always wished there was a similar organization to get kids out into nature, only without all the weird paramilitary vibes. Like, why do we even want our children to wear uniforms and learn to march? Why am I supposed to think that’s a good thing?
posted by panama joe at 12:11 PM on February 25, 2020 [19 favorites]


"two-deep" leadership so that one adult is never left alone with one scout
Why does this make me feel ... twice as nervous?


FWIW, I volunteer with our high school FIRST robotics team, and we have a similar rule. We call it the rule of three. There is never 1 adult left alone with 1 student; it's either at least 2 adults or at least 2 students. It's for everyone's safety; while all adults in the program must pass Raptor background checks, this rule exists not only to protect students from misconduct by a lone adult, but also aims to protect adults from false allegations of misconduct from a lone student.
posted by xedrik at 12:19 PM on February 25, 2020 [15 favorites]


And yeah, regarding fundraisers... If you're willing to just make a $20 cash donation instead of buying $20 worth of crap, it goes so much farther. Just be careful to be specific on your check, like "GSUSA Troop #131" instead of just "Girl Scouts", or "Town High School Band Boosters" instead of just "Town High School", or your donation may just go into a general fund instead of being allocated where you'd intended it to go.
posted by xedrik at 12:22 PM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]


> Always wished there was a similar organization to get kids out into nature, only without all the weird paramilitary vibes.

There are plenty of other organizations that do that, but they don't have the resources (financial, and in terms of volunteers) that BSA does. Girl Scouts, the Y, Camp Fire, environmental organizations, hiking clubs, smaller local clubs, etc.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:44 PM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]


I grew up in one of the LDS troops and even then I'd say a lot depended on your local leadership. I was lucky enough to have Scoutmasters that were truly passionate about the program and while it was sponsored by the church and had the whole weird church/troop overlap that AFAIK pretty much all the LDS-sponsored programs had, some of my favorite experiences growing up were from participating in Boy Scouts.

That so many factors have since soured me on both the Boy Scouts and the LDS church as organizations... well, we've come a long way, I guess. For me, the LDS split was a bit bittersweet because I know what kind of program the church probably has replaced it with, and I feel like it's just going to be a more isolating experience for the kids in that program.
posted by Aleyn at 1:09 PM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]


Uniforms are part of the program's visual identity, but it also helps level out everyone's appearance: clothes and especially camping gear can be expensive, and uniforms eliminate the possibility of a kid feeling crappy because of not having fancy stuff.

(Heck, I am an adult and I envy some kids' equipment!)
posted by wenestvedt at 1:11 PM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]


The BSA and the Catholic Church covered up atrocities and are now looking to cover their own asses. Thus, bankruptcy.

There's one thing that always bothers me to no end when a large organization/corporation declares bankruptcy, often to limit liability and payouts to those victimized. They call it "strategic" or "reorganizing" while paying lip service to victims. It's not about what's right or wrong, it's simply a business maneuver to ensure survival.

But when a person is forced to declare bankruptcy (in the US it's most often caused by a catastrophic life event, massive medical bills the top reason), it's considered to be some sort of moral failing instead of a legal option to protect yourself from losing everything.

The floor is always titled in the wrong direction.
posted by bawanaal at 1:14 PM on February 25, 2020 [5 favorites]


I was a Cub Scout for about 6 months at the end of 3rd grade and the beginning of 4th and absolutely hated it. I couldn't stand the platitudes or stereotyped iconography, the constant presence of 'responsible adults' was extremely oppressive for me, I hated the hierarchality, 'merit badges' seemed ridiculous and actually got in the way of learning anything interesting, and whenever we went somewhere outdoors it was like being trapped with a bunch of other people in a giant rolling hamster ball that actively prevented any of us from experiencing Nature.

It did come in handy in 4th grade though, when Miss Tuemler decreed that I would not be allowed on field trips unless I wore something other than a T shirt, and my Cub Scout uniform was the only garment with buttons I owned.
posted by jamjam at 1:17 PM on February 25, 2020


like wenestvedt and zerobyproxy and some others, I grew up in Scouting and credit it with sparking much of my love for the outdoors, teaching me about conservation and protecting our environment so future generations can continue to enjoy it, and allowing me to be a hooligan within some reasonably safe boundaries for several years. my folks weren't terribly outdoorsy so the Scouts was a way for me to experience frontier skills and camping, plus it was fun to build fires and shoot stuff with BB guns and run around in the woods. we also did a fair amount of volunteering and community support without any imprimatur of religion or regimentation.

at some point for reasons I don't recall or maybe never knew, I started going to a different troop— the leaders were really interested in militaristic formality, requiring dress uniform presentation at each meeting; they were also preachy about christian religion in a way that made me uncomfortable. that was the end for me, I had previously planned to complete Eagle but after switching troops I completed Life rank and dropped out.

it saddens me that the degenerate actions of a few have destroyed the reputation and practice of an institution in the USA that has been a positive influence for so many, that otherwise could have progressed with the times to teach many more about stewardship and the outdoors. I hope that the bankruptcy and restructuring will be an ouster for the bad apples and allow the truly passionate leaders and chapters to continue to serve new Scouts.
posted by a halcyon day at 1:22 PM on February 25, 2020 [5 favorites]


would you like to buy any of these? Seems like a money grab to me.

The difference between valueless popcorn at $40 and excellent cookies at $5 is that the Boy Scouts make a huge percentage of profit on each unit and the Girl Scouts have a much lower margin and must sell a zillion boxes to come close to the same amount of funds raised. I prefer the thing I'm buying from kids to cost nearly nothing so they get $38 of $40 rather than $0.40 of $5 (or whatever.)
posted by Cris E at 1:38 PM on February 25, 2020 [3 favorites]


Popcorn is 33%/33%/33%. The troop only sees a third of the money, so we are delighted to keep all of a ten-dollar bill instead of one-third of a $23 box of microwave popcorn.

Selling popcorn sucks.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:55 PM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]


Why does it seem like the worst crimes are so often found where morality and wholesomeness are loudly proclaimed?

That's where the kids are. They don't bother proclaiming their wholesomeness unless they want families around, and the worst crimes are the ones where the victims are least able to defend themselves, thus worst crimes in wholesome places.
posted by Cris E at 1:59 PM on February 25, 2020 [5 favorites]


Selling popcorn sucks.

Truth. For years our troop had the Beerwood Derby, which was about the best fundraiser in the world until last year when the son of the dad responsible for hosting it finally moved on. We had 12 oz, 750ml/22oz and growler class on custom built wooden bases that required a full beer as cargo. Dozens of cars each year, silent auction, it was tremendous.

https://gearjunkie.com/beerwood-derby
Here's my car from 2014 (usually a spring event, near Easter.)
posted by Cris E at 2:10 PM on February 25, 2020 [6 favorites]


The difference between valueless popcorn at $40 and excellent cookies at $5 is that the Boy Scouts make a huge percentage of profit on each unit and the Girl Scouts have a much lower margin and must sell a zillion boxes to come close to the same amount of funds raised. I prefer the thing I'm buying from kids to cost nearly nothing so they get $38 of $40 rather than $0.40 of $5 (or whatever.)

Isn't part of the point of girl scout cookies to help build entrepreneurial leadership skills in girls? The cookies sales are akin to exchange transactions with a profit (and would be deemed so per GAAP if they weren't an NPO, not sure how they treat the transactions currently) whereas the popcorn is certainly a contribution/donation. Further exposure to markets/economics is a big plus for girls, IMO.

With the popcorn, that's an obvious donation and everyone who buys it knows they're donating more than they're buying. Just different program structures. My bet is Boy Scouts came up with selling popcorn to fill funding gaps, and it was more of an afterthought, whereas the Girl Scout Cookie supply chain is pretty robust, and old.
posted by avalonian at 2:19 PM on February 25, 2020 [6 favorites]


was a Cub Scout for about 6 months at the end of 3rd grade and the beginning of 4th and absolutely hated it. I couldn't stand the platitudes or stereotyped iconography, the constant presence of 'responsible adults' was extremely oppressive for me, I hated the hierarchality, 'merit badges' seemed ridiculous

In non-scouting related matters, how nuanced of an opinion do you consider "I met some of [variegated group of people] and didn't like them thus I consider them bad" a nuanced opinion or...

Also, Cub Scouts do not have merit badges. So.

Not doubting your bad experience, but you know, small sample sizes, etc. Plus, you know, organizations sometimes change over the course of generations.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:21 PM on February 25, 2020 [2 favorites]


I feel like it's kind of tone deaf to talk about your positive experiences with scouting without acknowledging that many kids were barred from those experiences.

Yes, local leadership makes all the difference. I hope you didn't just enjoy the benefits of your own enlightened local leadership and actively fought back against the bigoted rules sent down from above.

I vividly remember an argument with a relative who tried to justify the scouts banning atheists. If you don't get your moral code from a higher power, you couldn't be moral. And of course it made sense to him ban gay men from leadership roles - would you want your son to be alone with a gay man? It's just riskier than leaving him alone with a straight man, obviously.

(I suggested banning all men from leadership roles to be extra safe, but he didn't like that.)

This was after he told me about what a good experience scouting was, and how his troop wasn't like that. It wasn't one of those super conservative, religious troops. It was so enriching! They did so much good! And the thing is ... it kind of was, for the area?

Like, if you were not one of the people targeted by their bigoted policies, it probably seemed pretty open and tolerant. It's that kind of comfortable bigotry where you're not screaming slurs at people but you have similar prejudices. Where maybe you say that there's nothing wrong with being gay, or atheist, but you think those people can't be trusted.

And I'm sure there were members of that troop who didn't agree with those prejudices, but since it didn't effect them personally didn't really think about it. They just got their badges and their positive experiences and that's that.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 3:28 PM on February 25, 2020 [20 favorites]


There is definitely a thing right now where the polarization in the United States is reflected in scouting.

It is definitely possible to join a troop in which white male children of a similar socioeconomic strata learn to be Manly Christian Men who shoot guns and use knives whilst also developing a flag/uniform fetish and a traditionalist view of morality.

It is also now possible for boys and girls of various belief structures, income levels, etc. to get together to learn how to appreciate nature, practice basic leadership and community service skills, and goof off with other nerdy kids.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:28 PM on February 25, 2020 [3 favorites]


Because my family moved a bunch, I was in several scout troops. As a consequence, I believe all your experiences, good and bad.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:39 PM on February 25, 2020 [7 favorites]


Personally, I have a policy of donating to every kid that has the moxie to knock on my door(fewer every year), but I never buy the product they are selling, instead I ask if I can just make a straight cash donation.
That way, I'm not stuck with even more gift wrap and a half a dozen hands don't get a cut of my money before it gets where it is supposed to go.
For example, a Girl Scout troop only gets about 10 percent of that $5 box of cookies, so my $10 check is the equivalent of selling 20 boxes of cookies.


Thank you. Straight donations are definitely appreciated. I can't give you exact numbers, since it has been a couple years since I have asked. For the girl scouts, there is a window around cookie season where any donation made (even if you specifically sign the check directly to the troop), is still treated at or near the breakdown of cookie sales.

For example, from 45 days before cookies sales start until 45 days after cookie sales end, that donation is supposed to be reported to GSUSA, so they get their cut.

I don't know about other orgs.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 4:41 PM on February 25, 2020 [4 favorites]


Choosing to comment in a thread about systemic sexual abuse in the BSA with your own anecdote about how scouting was great for you personally is tone deaf at best. This thread is grossing me out.
posted by lazaruslong at 4:45 PM on February 25, 2020 [9 favorites]


That's a mis-characterization of what's gone on here. Positively no one has tried to drown out accounts of abuse with positive anecdotes. Instead, the assertion that scouting should die because of its failures on a national level has been met with reminders that it is an intensely local organization and that many (maybe most) of its local groups are a net good.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:21 PM on February 25, 2020 [7 favorites]


Scouting is not like Catholicism. Each layer of organization upward does equal a level of greater importance and respect. The head of BSA is not like the Pope. Scouts literally do not know or care who that is.

Scouts only know their troop leaders. Even the people at a council level are menial bureaucratic people completely unknown to them. They don't get guidance from these people, let alone money.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:47 PM on February 25, 2020 [4 favorites]


Bishops confer sacraments in Catholicism.

No one knows or cares who the District Executive is.

And lazaruslong, I think everyone here speaking about their positive experiences in Scouting is feeling pain knowing that a program that has only been positive for them has cruelly and systematically harmed others. No one defends it because it's indefensible.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:51 PM on February 25, 2020 [8 favorites]


"does not" that should say. "Does not equal an extra layer of respect."

To say that scouting should die because of failings at the national level is not to say that its core ideals and key leaders are flawed. It's saying that the failures of middle managers who negotiate patch prices and book publishing should destroy the nice things done by volunteer parents at your local church or school.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:54 PM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]


Then merge into the Girl Scouts organization, since the U.S. is one of three countries worldwide where scouting isn't co-ed. Yes, it would be a big disruption, but it's also the right thing to do.

My Girl Scout service unit and council have been steamed about the BSUSA admitting girls into the organization. A talking point that's come down repeatedly is that the GSUSA provides a supportive girls-first environment, and I'm not sure the organization would be open or amenable to compromising that.

Maybe what's needed is a whole new co-ed scouting organization with an explicitly 21-century mindset.
posted by sobell at 6:30 PM on February 25, 2020 [15 favorites]


Man, no! Girl Scouts is fantastic for some girls, while others will enjoy Scouts BSA. I don't think any Scouter wants a hostile take-over -- just space for both programs to exist, with kids free to choose.

And let's be honest, Scouting in the rest of the whole damn world does fine co-ed: the U.S. seems pretty uniquely hung up about staying segregated by gender.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:59 PM on February 25, 2020 [3 favorites]


To say that scouting should die because of failings at the national level is not to say that its core ideals and key leaders are flawed. It's saying that the failures of middle managers who negotiate patch prices and book publishing should destroy the nice things done by volunteer parents at your local church or school.
posted by DirtyOldTown


holy fuck this is egregiously gross. you are motivated to preserve some idea you have of what the organization symbolizes to you, that's fair. but that is leading you far from the fuckin' path here.

Your comment

1. offensively abstracts the systematic sexual abuse of children and failure to respond to reports of sexual abuse of children to "failings at the national level..." and "..the failures of middle managers who negotiate patch prices and book publishing...". Someone raping someone else isn't a failure of the rapist, it's a crime against the victim.

2. Attempts to shift the blame for systematic sexual assault of children to some amorphous layer of middle-management or disconnected national body, thereby absolving the groups you are splitting out as True Scotsman of the blame, which is where it primarily lives. The national org failed in responding to and investigate claims of sexual assault, and is now going to try and get out of paying out settlements by using bankruptcy as a shield. That's pretty fucking bad, yes. But that's a reaction to the original crime here. which is the systematic sexual assault of children. The victims are not all being raped at Boy Scouts Headquarters by middle managers - that's happening at precisely the "intensely local" organizations chapters. Yes, involving the people that volunteer at your local church or school and their good works.

Talk to most any survivor who will spare you the energy to break this shit down and you'll find we've heard these patterns of motivated cognitive dissonance before. It's always the higher ups fault, and it's just a few bad apples, we can't let the bad outweigh the good, blah blah blah. What we hear is you're more interested in the health and well-being of the system that perpetrated the abuse and can rationalize away blame to a distance that lets you stay comfortable in remaining engaged with that system. A very similar thought process is what helps middle managers choose to coverup claims of sexual assault rather than investigate. Your priorities are seriously out of whack.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:37 PM on February 25, 2020 [17 favorites]


For example, from 45 days before cookies sales start until 45 days after cookie sales end, that donation is supposed to be reported to GSUSA, so they get their cut.

Yeah, considering all of the other rule violations I see during cookie season every year, I'm pretty sure most troops are just going to use any cash I hand them to buy some activity supplies without bothering the council with all that pesky bookkeeping.
posted by madajb at 9:16 PM on February 25, 2020 [1 favorite]


Choosing to comment in a thread about systemic sexual abuse in the BSA with your own anecdote about how scouting was great for you personally is tone deaf at best. This thread is grossing me out.
Immediately followed by.
That's a mis-characterization of what's gone on here
Is hilarious.

What lazaruslong is saying happens in every scouting thread here and you can add me to the chorus of people saying it's wrong and gross.
posted by fullerine at 4:17 AM on February 26, 2020 [3 favorites]


Mod note: One deleted. DirtyOldTown, you've commented more than anyone, repeating the same stuff, been completely oblivious to how you are coming across, and you need to cut it out. Please let this thread be now.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:25 AM on February 26, 2020


I'd just like to address these two comments, which each got a dozen favorites:

wenestvedt: Everyone I know of who's still involved in Scouting is pissed at the way the sins of the fathers are literally being visited on the sons. Everyone wants to see the dirty old men punished variously and painfully...But the old pervs...they really fucked it up for everyone.

caution live frogs: Absolutely. The BSA press releases do take pains to point out that the vast majority of the cases in question occurred 30+ years ago...

Isn't that because the BSA has only publicly released its "ineligible volunteer" files from 1965-1985, and has fought tooth and nail to keep the post-1985 files from being made available to the public?

Supporters of the BSA are quick to point out that the cases discussed in the files occurred prior to 1985. Critics, meanwhile, point out that as of 2012, the BSA has refused to release those files dating from after 1985.[34] A Texas judge has ordered the release of the post-1985 files, but the BSA is currently in the process of appealing to avoid that release.[34] A Minnesota district judge has also ordered the release.[35] A California judge has similarly ordered the release of more files, and the California state supreme court has denied an appeal from the BSA.[36] A BSA spokesman commented that "The BSA believes confidentiality of the Files helps to encourage prompt reporting of abuse"[37]

The cites in that section are from 2012-13, so perhaps I've missed a major release in the interim. Anyone know if the BSA has made its post-1985 files available since then? For what it's worth, this 2013 LA Times data set includes over 100 cases from 2004, hardly "30+ years ago." (Sort by year, choose 800 cases per page, and scroll to the last page.)

It's offensive to suggest the BSA's child sexual abuse problem is in the distant past and only involves "old pervs" from over 30 years ago, when the BSA has failed to release its own files about cases it knew occurred after 1985. Happy to be corrected on this, of course, if I've missed a later release.
posted by mediareport at 5:51 AM on February 26, 2020 [17 favorites]


I believe that allowing girls into Boy Scouts was not a progressive-minded notion. It was driven by 1 million LDS scouts departing and taking 70 million dollars of dues with them. How do you offset the cost? Who else can join? It felt crass. Seeing the den leader documentation regarding how to do trainings for scouts who had girl members the point was made clear to me. What I saw at the local level were good leaders who weren't following the manual. They integrated girls into the troop rather than segregating them into girl dens. A progressive-minded notion would have seen integration as a feature not a bug. It seemed to be about money and not true, deep, meaningful engagement. The local leaders have made it so but not because of any National guidance.

It is difficult to discuss Scouting, as it exists, operating outside of its own value system.
posted by zerobyproxy at 7:15 AM on February 26, 2020 [10 favorites]


zerobyproxy: we had some discussion about girls in scouting & I raised the same points. Our district leaders framed the separation of boys' and girls' patrols as one -- again -- of risk: Has the organization done everything to prevent sexual abuse between girls & boys if an allegation comes up? When we talk about abuse in scouting, it's not just leader-on-scout abuse. And again, regardless of good intentions, things get ... regimented... in order to maximize scout safety. It was very difficult for us to say that we needed a separate leader & patrol because a single girl wanted to enroll, but we have someone who's very close to the district in our leadership, so it's hard to bend the rules in our troop.
posted by boo_radley at 9:30 AM on February 26, 2020 [2 favorites]


Isn't that because the BSA has only publicly released its "ineligible volunteer" files from 1965-1985, and has fought tooth and nail to keep the post-1985 files from being made available to the public?

I have to agree: like I said, the whole thing was rotten above the local level.

Last week I skimmed the 300-page supporting document for the bankruptcy filing. The big UVA research paper that breaks down the IV records -- and which makes up the bulk of the document -- was done in like 2006 and is missing more-recent data. I don't know what those number are. I believe they're lower, because we're all basically mandatory reporters now, and kids have been warned to be on watch. But like I said, outside of my control, the national stuff is garbage actions by garbage people, and I hate it.

Similarly:
What I saw at the local level were good leaders who weren't following the manual. They integrated girls into the troop rather than segregating them into girl dens. A progressive-minded notion would have seen integration as a feature not a bug.

What I see are either old guys saying "Girls are icky" and keeping them out of their troop -- and losing good women leaders! -- or people recognizing that inclusion is correct and opening the door wider. By official Scouts BSA policy, boys' and girls' troops are to be separate, but I think everyone just treats them that way on paper, and lets the kids do everything (except tenting!) together in Real Life. The world is 50+% female, so why pretend otherwise?
posted by wenestvedt at 9:58 AM on February 26, 2020 [4 favorites]


National sold the move to girls being admitted as a way to integrate entire families -- but the numbers say otherwise.

HOWEVER: I do remember when my four kids were little, and it was really hard to bring my daughters to CubScout meetings when they couldn't participate but still had to be there -- especially for the one who was odler than her brothers.

We do have families now where the sisters are joining alongside their brothers, and it is great for the parents (because their kids are all at the same activity, saving driving!) and for the kids (because they have a familiar face in the new setting, and half of them have an older kid they can ask for help). Parents are more inclined to volunteer, too, which is really good for the troop.

So while it was offered as a fig leaf, letting whole families join is really happening.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:06 AM on February 26, 2020 [2 favorites]


The national organization was morally rotten, while the vast majority of local leaders were caring and enthusiastic.

I find this sentiment and others like it in this thread so bizarrely alien. For every local scouting group that uses its semi-independence to be better than the BSA, there are five using it to be worse, since it's not like the vaguely military trappings of scouting are anything like neutral in terms of the sort of person they attract. My troop was a haven for all manner of bigotry and bullying, and I saw many others like it at regional events.

Not to mention, and HOLY SHIT, how can anyone say something like this with a straight face when it was local leaders being the goddamn child rapists? What the hot fuck??
posted by invitapriore at 3:20 PM on February 26, 2020 [11 favorites]


Then merge into the Girl Scouts organization, since the U.S. is one of three countries worldwide where scouting isn't co-ed. Yes, it would be a big disruption, but it's also the right thing to do.

I have an older brother and grew up in the US, which is a patriarchal, misogynist society. Girl Scouts was literally the only place in my life where I was allowed to do, be, and dream anything. So much of my childhood was spent wanting to do things that I was told girls shouldn't even want to do, let alone get the chance to do. By the time I was in junior high, Girl Scouts meant a place where nobody called me names (that I didn't even really understand) or tried to grab my breasts or ass every time I walked by.

If some kids really enjoy co-ed troops, that's great for them, but until the US stops raising its kids under strict gender norms (which I swear has gotten even worse with Pinterest, Instagram, and Facebook guiding child-rearing) and stops teaching its sons to be sexist little bullies, an awful lot of girls and trans and non-binary kids will continue to need somewhere that they can just be kids, not stereotyped and harassed, and where they can actually do things and lead things, not just get shoved out of the way so the boys can do it.

GSUSA has always welcomed lesbians and atheists as members and leaders. GSUSA has always welcomed trans and non-binary kids. GSUSA has never had a sexual abuse scandal because it's always had policies designed to take care of its members.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:18 PM on February 26, 2020 [17 favorites]


> And let's be honest, Scouting in the rest of the whole damn world does fine co-ed: the U.S. seems pretty uniquely hung up about staying segregated by gender.

Girl Scouts being exclusively for girls isn't a hang up; it's a feminist policy.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:02 PM on February 26, 2020 [6 favorites]


> Parents are more inclined to volunteer, too, which is really good for the troop.

I do wonder why people are more willing to volunteer with Boy Scouts than with Girl Scouts. I even see it in my own troop, where I have a Cadette who loves being in the troop and is also a Boy Scout. Her parents are flaky with my troop -- I don't know how many times I've had to call to ask when they were going to come pick her up, whenever there's a scheduling conflict the other thing wins, and they don't participate in cookie sales. But they volunteer with her Boy Scout troop, and even asked me to buy some popcorn.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:05 PM on February 26, 2020


Girl Scouts are separate for a reason. There must be a place for most groups that aren't dominant in a culture (ie non white male) to establish their own identities and voices, support one another and generally be their own thing separate from any other context. Not everyone needs every kind of support, but most people need something at some point and you nurture these organizations so they're ready when people turn to them.

That said, not every group can be everything to everyone, and when I was running a Cub Scout troop we always let siblings crash the meetings and participate. It's not like the activities for our fourth graders were gender specific, and increased numbers made for a better atmosphere. But they were different meetings from how my daughters' Girl Scout troops did things. For example we always had a period of serious activity to let the kids burn off some energy at the beginning and end of meetings, whereas the girls were more orderly and didn't end up sweating.

Anyway, horses for courses as the racing folks say. More options makes it more likely to find what your child needs.
posted by Cris E at 7:42 AM on February 27, 2020 [1 favorite]


Girl Scouts being exclusively for girls isn't a hang up; it's a feminist policy.

Not sure what you mean, but I don't think I agree with it.

I look at it this way: back when Houston was flooding or when Black Lives Matter was all over the news there were a bunch of tone-deaf voices saying "It flooded in Missouri too" or "All Lives Matter." It does flood all over, and all lives do matter, but this isn't about you. Not everything is always about everyone, and sometimes you should just leave a place for others.
posted by Cris E at 7:53 AM on February 27, 2020 [1 favorite]


It sounds like we agree, Cris E? Girl Scouting is a place for girls, not a place for everyone.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:00 PM on February 27, 2020 [5 favorites]


GSUSA is a place for all girls and trans boys and non-binary kids who would like to be there, too.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:59 PM on February 27, 2020 [5 favorites]


As a leader of a co-ed Cub Scout group I have to say - merging with GSUSA is not a good idea because girls need a safe space. For most boys, the whole world IS their safe space. The US is not a culture where girls get the same experience. Having a place where it is just them, on their terms, is important. Girls in the BSA is great. Boys in GSUSA? No.

The BSA is changing significantly because a very large contingent of very conservative people have left. There’s a void there, and it is being filled by people who have different voices. There almost assuredly are people in the org who voted to go co-ed and stop excluding gay scouts just for the membership money. But there are even more people who are voting for positive changes because they truly want to see positive changes.

And there are people outside the org for whom any change will never be enough. That’s fair. I’d never tell anyone they were not allowed to have that viewpoint.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:51 PM on February 27, 2020 [3 favorites]


> The BSA is changing significantly because a very large contingent of very conservative people have left.

I think this is it in a nutshell. And it gives me a lot of hope.
posted by boo_radley at 9:29 AM on February 28, 2020 [2 favorites]


My vision would be that there would be co-ed as well as single-gender Scout troops. Some of these troops would have programs and membership that look mostly like what Girl Scout troops do today. The Girl Scouts have an important role as a place for girls to practice agency and their historical inclusiveness is something Scouts BSA could really learn from. At the same time, I know at least a couple girls and parents who would prefer to be part of a program that looks more like traditionally Boy Scouts, with a physical and outdoors emphasis. Or the convenience, not to be understated, of having siblings go to the same meetings. I feel like you can have the best of both worlds here.
posted by wnissen at 7:41 PM on March 1, 2020


On what planet do Girl Scouts not have an "outdoors emphasis"? Every troop that I was ever a part of went camping and learned a ton of outdoors skills. I had badges for camping, hiking, mountain biking, canoeing, fishing, downhill skiing, and sailing among others. Girl Scout camps are all about outdoors activities (it's camp...). The Girl Scout Destinations program is huge and amazing and offers once in a lifetime opportunities, as it also did when I participated 30 years ago.

They were called Girl Scout Wider Opportunities back then, and I spent a week cross-country skiing, dogsledding, snowshoeing, and winter camping in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area with a team of scouts led by experienced guides including Arctic explorer Paul Schurke. None of my friends who were in Boy Scouts had any experience comparable--even the ones who got to go to Philmont admitted that my trip was cooler.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:02 PM on March 2, 2020 [5 favorites]


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