This post has no dreams.
April 2, 2020 6:02 PM Subscribe
Ten Rules from a Reader (of Crime and Mystery Fiction) "1. No dreams, please. Supposedly it was Henry James who first said: “Tell a dream, lose a reader.” Billy Collins once wrote a poem called “On Reading In The Morning Paper That Dreams May Be Only Nonsense.” “You hit the pillow and moments later,” he wrote, “your mother appears to you as a llama, shouting at you in another language.” ... There may be people whose dreams provide brilliant insights into their character or provide clever solutions to problems that eluded them during their waking hours. But I’ve never met anyone like that. Any time a friend of mine begins recalling a dream for me, I begin mentally scrolling through my Netflix queue trying to decide what I’ll watch on TV after dinner....
... My wife and I have been married for thirty-nine years, and we’ve each shaken the other person to waken him/her from a dream that was causing shouting or wailing or thrashing of the bedsheets a fair number of times. Invariably, once awakened, the dreamer will either not recall the dream that had caused such turbulence or, more often, report that the dream was about something completely absurd. One night, about twenty-five years ago, my wife began howling so terrifyingly in her sleep that I feared she must be reliving some horrible childhood tragedy in a nightmare. She thrashed and screamed like someone in a movie about exorcism. When I shook her awake and asked what was wrong, she told me, “I dreamt that a squirrel ran up the leg of my pants.” I have never encountered a dream sequence in a novel that struck me as anything other than a literary contrivance. Fiction-writing is a specific kind of imaginative act and dreaming is an entirely different kind of imaginative act. No dreamer ever dreams a great novel and no writer ever writes a great dream. "
Plus other things to avoid unless you're a genius: addiction, sex scenes, psychopaths and detectives who do a lot of Googling.
... My wife and I have been married for thirty-nine years, and we’ve each shaken the other person to waken him/her from a dream that was causing shouting or wailing or thrashing of the bedsheets a fair number of times. Invariably, once awakened, the dreamer will either not recall the dream that had caused such turbulence or, more often, report that the dream was about something completely absurd. One night, about twenty-five years ago, my wife began howling so terrifyingly in her sleep that I feared she must be reliving some horrible childhood tragedy in a nightmare. She thrashed and screamed like someone in a movie about exorcism. When I shook her awake and asked what was wrong, she told me, “I dreamt that a squirrel ran up the leg of my pants.” I have never encountered a dream sequence in a novel that struck me as anything other than a literary contrivance. Fiction-writing is a specific kind of imaginative act and dreaming is an entirely different kind of imaginative act. No dreamer ever dreams a great novel and no writer ever writes a great dream. "
Plus other things to avoid unless you're a genius: addiction, sex scenes, psychopaths and detectives who do a lot of Googling.
if a friend tells me something like "Last night I dreamed we were all on Space:1999 except it was a sex cult, and you were in trouble for stealing an Eagle when you were drunk" I do not consider myself to be the worse off for that information.
15-20 years ago a friend told me they dreamed they got into a steamy situation with Xena the Warrior Princess, then, wondering how she was managing to ejaculate, spotted a complicated-looking machine tucked into a secret corner of the room. Bags labeled "MARSHMALLOW FLUFF" lay on the floor nearby while the machine pumped the pure white substance through a series of tubes like the world's most dedicated robot accordion player.
On no level do I regret having had this dream described to me. (YMMV.)
posted by taquito sunrise at 6:27 PM on April 2, 2020 [32 favorites]
15-20 years ago a friend told me they dreamed they got into a steamy situation with Xena the Warrior Princess, then, wondering how she was managing to ejaculate, spotted a complicated-looking machine tucked into a secret corner of the room. Bags labeled "MARSHMALLOW FLUFF" lay on the floor nearby while the machine pumped the pure white substance through a series of tubes like the world's most dedicated robot accordion player.
On no level do I regret having had this dream described to me. (YMMV.)
posted by taquito sunrise at 6:27 PM on April 2, 2020 [32 favorites]
I dreamt that I was trying to drive my Subaru up a mountain but was having a lot of difficulty reversing out of a bad spot because the road was very very narrow and my car was very very small but my head was ENORMOUS and it was causing all kinds of logistical problems, so I rolled down the side of the mountain into a beautiful pine grotto with mossy floors where I decided to live the rest of my life and chair A.A. meetings for the gentle people who lived there.
And if that isn't a dream worth telling people then maybe he's right and there isn't such a thing.
Also I loved Jake Johanssen's "dream trilogy" in his Comedy Central stand up special "This'll Take About an Hour" from the 90s. I guess I don't have any way of judging the authenticity of his self reportage, and all dreams reports are synopses by necessity, but they had that dream like quality described in a very funny way.
posted by Horkus at 6:31 PM on April 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
And if that isn't a dream worth telling people then maybe he's right and there isn't such a thing.
Also I loved Jake Johanssen's "dream trilogy" in his Comedy Central stand up special "This'll Take About an Hour" from the 90s. I guess I don't have any way of judging the authenticity of his self reportage, and all dreams reports are synopses by necessity, but they had that dream like quality described in a very funny way.
posted by Horkus at 6:31 PM on April 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
I like to hear boring dreams from people I know well. Not for interest in the dream but the way they relate it gives me a bit more insight into the way they see their own mundane anxieties; things that usually go undiscussed because of their unpleasantness.
posted by solarion at 6:35 PM on April 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by solarion at 6:35 PM on April 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
I disagree with the author when they say that the climax to A Few Good Men is dumb luck that invalidates all of the protagonists' prior detective work. The value of that work is not that it convinces the jury that Col. Jessup is guilty, but that it convinces the defense team themselves, and inspires the courage necessary for them to bluff and goad Jessup into confessing his guilt.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:43 PM on April 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:43 PM on April 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
The Google thing: it would be more fun, plot-wise, to note all the ways in which Google searches can lead you wrong. Any historical research involving Google will throw up multiple people who seem like the same person, but aren't...
Is stream-of-consciousness really a thing in bestselling thrillers these days?
posted by thomas j wise at 6:48 PM on April 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Is stream-of-consciousness really a thing in bestselling thrillers these days?
posted by thomas j wise at 6:48 PM on April 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Once I dreamed someone made a voice controlled version of the light-gun arcade game Time Crisis 4. One played it by just yelling “shoot the guy” over and over.
posted by aubilenon at 6:49 PM on April 2, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 6:49 PM on April 2, 2020 [19 favorites]
Once I dreamed someone made a voice controlled version of the light-gun arcade game Time Crisis 4. One played it by just yelling “shoot the guy” over and over.
You know... we have the technology...
posted by taquito sunrise at 6:54 PM on April 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
You know... we have the technology...
posted by taquito sunrise at 6:54 PM on April 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
Rule 11. Use paragraph breaks. They are your friend, and your readers' too.
posted by Pryde at 7:05 PM on April 2, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by Pryde at 7:05 PM on April 2, 2020 [17 favorites]
Not to harp on the dream thing more, but my partner has the most fucking unbelievable dreams. They'll wake up and tell me about this long involved plot in which children were raised from birth to be magical warriors for the military, but their mother was a little bit of a rebel and didn't brainwash them the way she should have, so when the military came at 18 asking them to enlist they refused, and the next day they told me (adorably, whenever they have a partner in their dreams, it's always me) about the refusal and I broke down crying because I had turned 18 before them and I had said yes because I was too scared to say no, which meant I was going out to fight this magical war by myself and they couldn't come with me because once you say no it's no forever, there's no taking it back, and they were so upset because they couldn't come with me to protect and fight with me, and so I went off and got killed in this magical war that devastated the entire planet and killed off the majority of the population, and they end up being a wanderer who goes from tiny settlement to tiny settlement fixing small problems and taking care of animals and such, and one day years later they end up settling in this one town for a while where they're very highly regarded for their animal care, they are apparently extremely good with the horses for some reason, and this buff butch farmer woman falls in love with them and keeps trying to court them but they keep rebuffing her because they're still nursing the pain of losing me. And I'm just like, what the actual fuck?
Their dreams have fully developed worlds, complicated plots, foreshadowing, fucking Chekhov's guns that go off in the third act, it's absolutely unreal. All that to say, my partner absolutely dreams great novels, but also I invariably skip dream sequences in books. Even in fantasy novels, when the dream could actually be Important, I'm always like, "Fuck it, if it was really important it'll come back when they're awake."
On the rest of the list:
2. Academics absolutely talk way too much about the thing they research, but generally it is not interesting to the lay-person. So correct, leave it out of the writing, but also, have you actually met an archaeologist
3. Very good point about addiction that I appreciate a lot.
4. Also correct.
5. Stream of consciousness is a hell of a lot of fun to write, and it should almost never see the light of day to anyone but the writer
6. Fanfiction has completely skewed my idea of what a "really graphic" sex scene might be so I will refrain from commenting
7. Valid, but let me enjoy my "this woman works part-time at a knitting shop and lives in a cute little Cape Cod house in an adorable little town in Maine" fantasies, okay?
8. This happened in the last mystery novel I tried to read and I was so fucking pissed off. I was like, what was the point of the whole novel?
9. I could go either way on this one. Valid, but also kind of how stories work, in general.
10. Nah. There's plenty of ways to be clever with detective work using technology. It might not be romantic, but I don't think romance is generally the point in mystery novels, is it?
Caveat: I've read like, 2 mystery novels in the past 10 years.
posted by brook horse at 7:10 PM on April 2, 2020 [14 favorites]
Their dreams have fully developed worlds, complicated plots, foreshadowing, fucking Chekhov's guns that go off in the third act, it's absolutely unreal. All that to say, my partner absolutely dreams great novels, but also I invariably skip dream sequences in books. Even in fantasy novels, when the dream could actually be Important, I'm always like, "Fuck it, if it was really important it'll come back when they're awake."
On the rest of the list:
2. Academics absolutely talk way too much about the thing they research, but generally it is not interesting to the lay-person. So correct, leave it out of the writing, but also, have you actually met an archaeologist
3. Very good point about addiction that I appreciate a lot.
4. Also correct.
5. Stream of consciousness is a hell of a lot of fun to write, and it should almost never see the light of day to anyone but the writer
6. Fanfiction has completely skewed my idea of what a "really graphic" sex scene might be so I will refrain from commenting
7. Valid, but let me enjoy my "this woman works part-time at a knitting shop and lives in a cute little Cape Cod house in an adorable little town in Maine" fantasies, okay?
8. This happened in the last mystery novel I tried to read and I was so fucking pissed off. I was like, what was the point of the whole novel?
9. I could go either way on this one. Valid, but also kind of how stories work, in general.
10. Nah. There's plenty of ways to be clever with detective work using technology. It might not be romantic, but I don't think romance is generally the point in mystery novels, is it?
Caveat: I've read like, 2 mystery novels in the past 10 years.
posted by brook horse at 7:10 PM on April 2, 2020 [14 favorites]
Any time a friend of mine begins recalling a dream for me, I begin mentally scrolling through my Netflix queue trying to decide what I’ll watch on TV after dinner....
Maybe you're not a great conversationalist?
posted by StarkRoads at 7:27 PM on April 2, 2020 [14 favorites]
Maybe you're not a great conversationalist?
posted by StarkRoads at 7:27 PM on April 2, 2020 [14 favorites]
Don't try to do ethnic dialog unless you are a member of the ethnic group. White authors writing "ghetto" dialog is usually the reading equivalent of nails on a blackboard.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:36 PM on April 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:36 PM on April 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
In my experience, most people (myself included) are very bad at relating dreams even when they are interesting. The payoff might be “Space: 1999 sex cult,” but the narrative is more like “... and it was you, but not really you? You had that haircut from last Christmas, and so—wait, actually your hair was a bit longer. Anyway, I looked outside the window and saw stars. Not, like, the night sky, but black, like in space. The window was round but the one next to it was more oval. Anyway, I said to you—you were there all of a sudden, I don’t know wh
posted by No-sword at 8:40 PM on April 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 8:40 PM on April 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
re: dreams
I heard once that your presence in others' dreams is proof that you actually exist. I can't remember the logic behind it, but I like the idea anyway. So if I show up in one of your dreams, please tell me about that dream, because it ain't easy being at least partly a fictional character.
re: thematic psychos
god I hate these characters. Maybe because I bothered to do some research on actual psycho killers way back when and discovered that the thematic kinds simply did not exist, they're pure fantasy, when I find myself reading some highly regarded book that presents itself as somewhat realistic and then a thematic psycho pops up, that's it, it gets tossed. IMMEDIATELY. Movies and TV shows, too. Life's too short. If I want fantasy, there's already a genre for that.
posted by philip-random at 8:40 PM on April 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
I heard once that your presence in others' dreams is proof that you actually exist. I can't remember the logic behind it, but I like the idea anyway. So if I show up in one of your dreams, please tell me about that dream, because it ain't easy being at least partly a fictional character.
re: thematic psychos
god I hate these characters. Maybe because I bothered to do some research on actual psycho killers way back when and discovered that the thematic kinds simply did not exist, they're pure fantasy, when I find myself reading some highly regarded book that presents itself as somewhat realistic and then a thematic psycho pops up, that's it, it gets tossed. IMMEDIATELY. Movies and TV shows, too. Life's too short. If I want fantasy, there's already a genre for that.
posted by philip-random at 8:40 PM on April 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
Not crime/mystery related, but I often feel that almost every Kafka story - whether short story or novel - is basically a dream. Not in a "fantasy" or cloudy way, but in the sense that things transpire and feel like they would in a dream. (I think it's why I like his writing, and also why my wife hates it.)
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:05 PM on April 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:05 PM on April 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
The only legitimate defense of dream sequences is found in the utter drek that is Chernyshevsky's What is to be Done? has two chapters which are incredibly elaborate dream sequence about a socialist Utopia, with a crystal palace and a mutual panopticon. This bothered Dostoevsky so much that he wrote Notes from the Underground, one of his great works, in response to it.
The best a dream sequence is do is inspire a better piece of writing. Well, that and a socialist revolution (Lenin loved the book), but I wouldn't count on it.
posted by Hactar at 9:12 PM on April 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
The best a dream sequence is do is inspire a better piece of writing. Well, that and a socialist revolution (Lenin loved the book), but I wouldn't count on it.
posted by Hactar at 9:12 PM on April 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
ask yourself, “When was the last time I read a really great graphic sex scene?”
As a picky-but-also-voracious fanfiction reader... yesterday.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 9:24 PM on April 2, 2020 [14 favorites]
As a picky-but-also-voracious fanfiction reader... yesterday.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 9:24 PM on April 2, 2020 [14 favorites]
Good list, well reasoned. About halfway through, though, I kinda got the feeling he was being paid by the word.
posted by From Bklyn at 9:41 PM on April 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 9:41 PM on April 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
Me, checking Mefi just after writing a dream experienced by a psychopathic, surprisingly wealthy archeologist, addicted to sex and a gifted amateur lockpicker: uh oh
More seriously, he starts off with the weakest point. Dreams are fascinating. I have great ones, and I'd tell you some, but I'm terrible at remembering them.
posted by zompist at 10:07 PM on April 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
More seriously, he starts off with the weakest point. Dreams are fascinating. I have great ones, and I'd tell you some, but I'm terrible at remembering them.
posted by zompist at 10:07 PM on April 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
I've definitely had conversations with friends about my distaste of dream sequences in books, but also related to me. I get that a lot of the time they're fascinating to the dreamer, or serve as cheats to give clues or connect dots that otherwise they wouldn't be able to. It often serves as a cheat, and not a very interesting one. Part of the issue is that it's similar to the superman problem, if someone is in a dream there aren't truly any limits on what can happen. Or what happens makes no sense from a world-building perspective. Idk I guess, I've read a lot of dreams and heard them as well, and never felt the richer for it.
posted by Carillon at 10:47 PM on April 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 10:47 PM on April 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
It often serves as a cheat, and not a very interesting one.
There's also the magical/spiritual/ESP woo gimmick, which, in a mystery or crime novel, is a sure sign that the author's imagination failed.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:55 AM on April 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
There's also the magical/spiritual/ESP woo gimmick, which, in a mystery or crime novel, is a sure sign that the author's imagination failed.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:55 AM on April 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
Agreed, dreams are the worst.
But holy crap is that writer verbose. Out of sheer boredom, I didn't finish a single one of the points.
I would add to the list: the mental health crutch. Two recent seasons of television were ruined by having a bipolar main character drive the action:The Sinner (which I gave up on) and Ozark (which I finished, begrudgingly).
Yes, mental health is important and can be interesting, but for a crime story, it's pointless. Part of the fun of crime stories / mysteries is the audience trying to guess what's going to happen. When the action is basically driven by randomness or whim, it's no longer interesting.
posted by dobbs at 5:03 AM on April 3, 2020 [5 favorites]
But holy crap is that writer verbose. Out of sheer boredom, I didn't finish a single one of the points.
I would add to the list: the mental health crutch. Two recent seasons of television were ruined by having a bipolar main character drive the action:The Sinner (which I gave up on) and Ozark (which I finished, begrudgingly).
Yes, mental health is important and can be interesting, but for a crime story, it's pointless. Part of the fun of crime stories / mysteries is the audience trying to guess what's going to happen. When the action is basically driven by randomness or whim, it's no longer interesting.
posted by dobbs at 5:03 AM on April 3, 2020 [5 favorites]
Illogical wealth
One of thr things I really like about James M. Cain is that you’re always aware of exactly how much money the protagonist has at any given time and usually how they got it. It almost always drives the plot and their economic situation is fully integrated. You come out the end with best a harrowing intergenerational drama AND knowing how to run a chicken and waffle joint in 1932 or how far a cocktail waitress can stretch her tips.
posted by The Whelk at 6:14 AM on April 3, 2020 [9 favorites]
One of thr things I really like about James M. Cain is that you’re always aware of exactly how much money the protagonist has at any given time and usually how they got it. It almost always drives the plot and their economic situation is fully integrated. You come out the end with best a harrowing intergenerational drama AND knowing how to run a chicken and waffle joint in 1932 or how far a cocktail waitress can stretch her tips.
posted by The Whelk at 6:14 AM on April 3, 2020 [9 favorites]
I love mysteries and I disagree with everything on the list except that dreams are boring. I guess different people get different things out of mysteries.
posted by dame at 6:40 AM on April 3, 2020
posted by dame at 6:40 AM on April 3, 2020
1. I caught part of the 1982 Paul Newman/Sally Field film Absence of Malice on cable the other night. It includes a scene of the plucky young reporter doing research via Microfiche, which was the Google sequence of yesteryear.
2. I've found myself reading some fantasy genre fiction recently, including (very slowly) The Wheel of Time series, because it is being turned into a cable series with Rosamund Pike (who I like quite a bit) and I was always curious about it. But holy fuck the Dream Sequences... Lengthy, regular dream sequences complete with black-robed figures with eyes of flame... spooooky... scary... ominous... boring...
This series is fourteen doorstopper books long... YES, 14!... and while I'm reading other stuff alongside it, I seriously doubt I can continue much further almost entirely because of dream sequences. I keep wanting to throttle the (late) author and yell into his face that these are Fantasy novels, so there's no reason AT ALL why magic, fantasy stuff has to happen in a dream. As soon as I know I'm reading a dream sequence, I'm out of the story. Because dreams are boring, toothless and LAZY. (there's a bunch of other reasons why this series of books is not doing it for me, but I'll skip those)
I hate dream sequences in fiction, all fiction, all media.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:45 AM on April 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
2. I've found myself reading some fantasy genre fiction recently, including (very slowly) The Wheel of Time series, because it is being turned into a cable series with Rosamund Pike (who I like quite a bit) and I was always curious about it. But holy fuck the Dream Sequences... Lengthy, regular dream sequences complete with black-robed figures with eyes of flame... spooooky... scary... ominous... boring...
This series is fourteen doorstopper books long... YES, 14!... and while I'm reading other stuff alongside it, I seriously doubt I can continue much further almost entirely because of dream sequences. I keep wanting to throttle the (late) author and yell into his face that these are Fantasy novels, so there's no reason AT ALL why magic, fantasy stuff has to happen in a dream. As soon as I know I'm reading a dream sequence, I'm out of the story. Because dreams are boring, toothless and LAZY. (there's a bunch of other reasons why this series of books is not doing it for me, but I'll skip those)
I hate dream sequences in fiction, all fiction, all media.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:45 AM on April 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
Let me share with you the worst dream I ever had. Ready?
So, I get up, wash my face, brush my teeth, shave, shit, shower and get dressed for work.
Then, I wake up.
Wait, I dreamed getting ready for work? And now I have to go through all that again?
posted by SPrintF at 6:50 AM on April 3, 2020 [7 favorites]
So, I get up, wash my face, brush my teeth, shave, shit, shower and get dressed for work.
Then, I wake up.
Wait, I dreamed getting ready for work? And now I have to go through all that again?
posted by SPrintF at 6:50 AM on April 3, 2020 [7 favorites]
Don't try to do ethnic dialog unless you are a member of the ethnic group.
Well, that's Twain out. And John Kennedy Toole. And Harper Lee. Etc. Myself, it's moralizing that's a deal breaker. Besides entertainment I want a novel to provoke questions, not insist on answers.
posted by BWA at 7:47 AM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Well, that's Twain out. And John Kennedy Toole. And Harper Lee. Etc. Myself, it's moralizing that's a deal breaker. Besides entertainment I want a novel to provoke questions, not insist on answers.
posted by BWA at 7:47 AM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
All his other rules aside, I definitely disagree with the last one. In fact, in this day and age, I feel you have to come up with an excuse for the detective not to check the internet for information, otherwise your fictional footpad is just being unforgivably dense. Similar to how modern movies now have to find ways to get rid of their characters' cellphones to stop them just calling for help - the evidence found in a trunk in the attic is still valid, but times have moved on.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 7:58 AM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 7:58 AM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
In my experience, most people (myself included) are very bad at relating dreams even when they are interesting. The payoff might be “Space: 1999 sex cult,” but the narrative is more like “... and it was you, but not really you? You had that haircut from last Christmas, and so—wait, actually your hair was a bit longer. Anyway, I looked outside the window and saw stars. Not, like, the night sky, but black, like in space. The window was round but the one next to it was more oval. Anyway, I said to you—you were there all of a sudden, I don’t know wh
Conversations are a two way street. If someone is telling you a story voluntarily, you can use it to find out interesting things about them, like:
'Why do you think the dream stuck with you?'
'What was the strongest image do you think?'
'You think I should cut my hair again?'
'Do you like Robert Landau in Space:1999? Isn't it sad he's no longer with us?'
Or you can treat other people like they're supposed to passively entertain you idk
I'm not saying you have to value it equally every time someone starts talking to you but there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in a judgey listicle
posted by StarkRoads at 8:12 AM on April 3, 2020 [4 favorites]
Conversations are a two way street. If someone is telling you a story voluntarily, you can use it to find out interesting things about them, like:
'Why do you think the dream stuck with you?'
'What was the strongest image do you think?'
'You think I should cut my hair again?'
'Do you like Robert Landau in Space:1999? Isn't it sad he's no longer with us?'
Or you can treat other people like they're supposed to passively entertain you idk
I'm not saying you have to value it equally every time someone starts talking to you but there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in a judgey listicle
posted by StarkRoads at 8:12 AM on April 3, 2020 [4 favorites]
Well, that's Twain out. And John Kennedy Toole. And Harper Lee. Etc.
Well, yes, that's why I threw in the usually in my second sentence. There are obviously some writers who can get away with it. The problem is the ones who think they can, and are wrong.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:25 AM on April 3, 2020 [5 favorites]
Well, yes, that's why I threw in the usually in my second sentence. There are obviously some writers who can get away with it. The problem is the ones who think they can, and are wrong.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:25 AM on April 3, 2020 [5 favorites]
Don't try to do ethnic dialog unless you are a member of the ethnic group.
I recall a writing workshop where this came up for discussion. The thing I remember was somebody saying that most attempts at writing dialect fail because the characters who are doing the talking aren't hearing it the way an unfamiliar ear is hearing it. They're just communicating with each other in the way that works best for them. Whereas the unfamiliar ear is very much hearing the "difference" of the dialect.
Which makes it the writer's job to be clear on what they're going after. If they're working the point of view of a character to whom the dialect is distracting (getting in the way of their understanding), then yes, by all means, dive in and strive to recreate the dialect. But if it's a character to whom the dialect is their natural way of talking, then it's time to pull back some ...
posted by philip-random at 8:47 AM on April 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
Which makes it the writer's job to be clear on what they're going after.
In this sort writing there can be kind of an implicit signal, like, 'I, the author, speak normally, and these other people from sure talk all weird don't they? You, the reader, are like me, and definitely not like those people from .'
In works that lean heavily on trope, I personally find decoding the author's transliterations to be kind of a tedious process, your milage may very much...vary
posted by StarkRoads at 9:36 AM on April 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
In this sort writing there can be kind of an implicit signal, like, 'I, the author, speak normally, and these other people from
In works that lean heavily on trope, I personally find decoding the author's transliterations to be kind of a tedious process, your milage may very much...vary
posted by StarkRoads at 9:36 AM on April 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
I had a dream about Chrome having an extra row of tabs. I could have more tabs.
Unfortunately, the bit about the fictional serial killer who left jade elephants by hi victims gave me an idea. The killer has been mysteriously killed. Someone was following him around stealing the jade elephants. It turns out that the killer only goes after helpless victims and isn't good at self-defense.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:14 AM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, the bit about the fictional serial killer who left jade elephants by hi victims gave me an idea. The killer has been mysteriously killed. Someone was following him around stealing the jade elephants. It turns out that the killer only goes after helpless victims and isn't good at self-defense.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:14 AM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
It is absolutely possible to write dreams, and write them well.
Crime and Punishment has at least two dreams in it, and they absolutely work, and they are absolutely necessary.
La Vita Nuova has a dream in it, and it absolutely works, and is absolutely necessary.
Finnegan's Wake is, arguably, a dream.
Wuthering Heights has dreams. The medieval Death of Arthur (one of Malory's sources) has dreams.
It would be wrong to say that poems are dreams, but it wouldn't be far wrong.
As for the rest of the list--sure.
But there's really only one rule in writing that is true all the time:
whatever you write, it has to work, and it has to do work.
posted by what does it eat, light? at 10:57 AM on April 3, 2020 [5 favorites]
Crime and Punishment has at least two dreams in it, and they absolutely work, and they are absolutely necessary.
La Vita Nuova has a dream in it, and it absolutely works, and is absolutely necessary.
Finnegan's Wake is, arguably, a dream.
Wuthering Heights has dreams. The medieval Death of Arthur (one of Malory's sources) has dreams.
It would be wrong to say that poems are dreams, but it wouldn't be far wrong.
As for the rest of the list--sure.
But there's really only one rule in writing that is true all the time:
whatever you write, it has to work, and it has to do work.
posted by what does it eat, light? at 10:57 AM on April 3, 2020 [5 favorites]
Karl Edward Wagner's The River of Night's Dreaming is the only explicit dream story I've enjoyed. It has a sting in its tail.
posted by SPrintF at 11:30 AM on April 3, 2020
posted by SPrintF at 11:30 AM on April 3, 2020
Rule 11: break word walls into paragraphs. PLEASE
posted by charris5005 at 11:43 AM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by charris5005 at 11:43 AM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Avoid describing dreams?
Matthew Wilder would disagree.
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 11:57 AM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Matthew Wilder would disagree.
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 11:57 AM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Byron and Coleridge and Blake, too, would disagree with the dictum against describing dreams.
That said, while Frankenstein, famously, was given life in the lightning flash of one of Mary Shelley's dreams, she had to do a fair amount of body-part choosing and stitiching-together before the damn thing would actually walk and talk on its own.
posted by what does it eat, light? at 12:16 PM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
That said, while Frankenstein, famously, was given life in the lightning flash of one of Mary Shelley's dreams, she had to do a fair amount of body-part choosing and stitiching-together before the damn thing would actually walk and talk on its own.
posted by what does it eat, light? at 12:16 PM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
whatever you write, it has to work, and it has to do work.
I like this!
posted by storybored at 12:41 PM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
I like this!
posted by storybored at 12:41 PM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
I find dreams fascinating.
When my father was in the early stages of his Alzheimer's he began having vivid dreams about the war. And they would begin with all his friends that had died there or since around a big dinner table at a French restaurant that'd gather at in Saigon. And each of his friends would go around the table and tell stories he'd forgotten about the war. He would wake up and write them down. He would also have very vivid dreams about his mother coming to talk to him about how much she loved and missed him and about his childhood. Again about things he'd long forgotten. His mind fighting the loss, I suspect.
He would tell me these dreams with something bordering on an ecstatic urgency. And a few things came to light as I read through his notes about them. One was that my father was present when the Bolivians surrounded Che Guevara. That is a helluva story. I have no idea what is dream and what is true. But its a great story.
As time went on some these dreams would start to happen as he was awake. Right up until the moment he died he was on an airplane prepping for a jump.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2020 [9 favorites]
When my father was in the early stages of his Alzheimer's he began having vivid dreams about the war. And they would begin with all his friends that had died there or since around a big dinner table at a French restaurant that'd gather at in Saigon. And each of his friends would go around the table and tell stories he'd forgotten about the war. He would wake up and write them down. He would also have very vivid dreams about his mother coming to talk to him about how much she loved and missed him and about his childhood. Again about things he'd long forgotten. His mind fighting the loss, I suspect.
He would tell me these dreams with something bordering on an ecstatic urgency. And a few things came to light as I read through his notes about them. One was that my father was present when the Bolivians surrounded Che Guevara. That is a helluva story. I have no idea what is dream and what is true. But its a great story.
As time went on some these dreams would start to happen as he was awake. Right up until the moment he died he was on an airplane prepping for a jump.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2020 [9 favorites]
I thought this was going to be about Rules for Detective Stories, like those propounded by Father Knox and re-visited by Josef Skvorecky. Those rules were about making proper whodunnits, which are now pretty much curios, or played for laughs. So, Elmore Leonard and Kevin Mims' Rules demonstrate a shift in popular fiction currents.
posted by CCBC at 4:14 PM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by CCBC at 4:14 PM on April 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Don't try to do ethnic dialog unless you are a member of the ethnic group. White authors writing "ghetto" dialog is usually the reading equivalent of nails on a blackboard.
Yes, though I don't consider it a hard and fast rule because I have on occasion seen White writers create AAVE dialog relatively effectively. But it's rare and for the most part I wish they wouldn't try to do it.
I also tend to get my hackles up if I see White writers trying to use a Black main character at all. In my experience they usually don't get the character's inner voice or general perspectives right unless the character has never been exposed to anything vaguely related to their ethnicity. It usually comes across to me as the literary form of blackface.
In fact, in this day and age, I feel you have to come up with an excuse for the detective not to check the internet for information, otherwise your fictional footpad is just being unforgivably dense. Similar to how modern movies now have to find ways to get rid of their characters' cellphones to stop them just calling for help - the evidence found in a trunk in the attic is still valid, but times have moved on.
I call this my cellphone rule. If the plot of a mystery would fall apart with presence of a cellphone then in my view it's probably a poorly constructed plot. I remember being amused at Janet Evanovich's book, One for the Money, which came out not long before cell phones became widely used. (And the story takes place in the mid-90s as well.) But, from today's perspective, the plot falls apart if the central character has access to a phone, period. Flash forward to 2012 when the movie starring Katherine Heigl is released. In the very first scene her character is shown using a cellphone. It's like they knew I'd be waiting to see how closely they were going to stick to the book. ;-) (Unfortunately, the presence of the cellphone didn't help the movie.)
ask yourself, “When was the last time I read a really great graphic sex scene?”
Goodreads doesn't make it easy to search your own reviews by keyword, otherwise I'm pretty sure I could name one.
posted by fuse theorem at 8:23 AM on April 4, 2020
Yes, though I don't consider it a hard and fast rule because I have on occasion seen White writers create AAVE dialog relatively effectively. But it's rare and for the most part I wish they wouldn't try to do it.
I also tend to get my hackles up if I see White writers trying to use a Black main character at all. In my experience they usually don't get the character's inner voice or general perspectives right unless the character has never been exposed to anything vaguely related to their ethnicity. It usually comes across to me as the literary form of blackface.
In fact, in this day and age, I feel you have to come up with an excuse for the detective not to check the internet for information, otherwise your fictional footpad is just being unforgivably dense. Similar to how modern movies now have to find ways to get rid of their characters' cellphones to stop them just calling for help - the evidence found in a trunk in the attic is still valid, but times have moved on.
I call this my cellphone rule. If the plot of a mystery would fall apart with presence of a cellphone then in my view it's probably a poorly constructed plot. I remember being amused at Janet Evanovich's book, One for the Money, which came out not long before cell phones became widely used. (And the story takes place in the mid-90s as well.) But, from today's perspective, the plot falls apart if the central character has access to a phone, period. Flash forward to 2012 when the movie starring Katherine Heigl is released. In the very first scene her character is shown using a cellphone. It's like they knew I'd be waiting to see how closely they were going to stick to the book. ;-) (Unfortunately, the presence of the cellphone didn't help the movie.)
ask yourself, “When was the last time I read a really great graphic sex scene?”
Goodreads doesn't make it easy to search your own reviews by keyword, otherwise I'm pretty sure I could name one.
posted by fuse theorem at 8:23 AM on April 4, 2020
Avoiding writers who use paragraphs breaks sparingly means missing out on Thomas Bernhard, which would be a mistake. Not a mystery writer, but still.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:41 AM on April 4, 2020
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:41 AM on April 4, 2020
Googling something will soon be a convenient way of getting past the digital search quickly. "I typed her name into Google, and all I got was 3 Linked In profiles that weren't her, and a dozen of those dodgy sites that promise to sell you information if you just click through 10 other pages of redirects filled with ads. Oh well, off to the library instead then..."
posted by harriet vane at 3:17 AM on April 6, 2020
posted by harriet vane at 3:17 AM on April 6, 2020
11. For gods' sake man, use paragraphs.
posted by MartinWisse at 6:09 AM on April 6, 2020
posted by MartinWisse at 6:09 AM on April 6, 2020
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posted by thelonius at 6:13 PM on April 2, 2020 [39 favorites]