The World's Dumbest Environmental Problem
June 6, 2020 10:34 PM Subscribe
Municipal composting programs can usually take cooked meat and bones.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 10:55 PM on June 6, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 10:55 PM on June 6, 2020 [9 favorites]
nb the first article fails to address this but the Yale article points out correctly that food waste, like most other issues, is a systems-level / supply-chain level issue and that addressing waste at the consumer level is totally absurd
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 10:57 PM on June 6, 2020 [90 favorites]
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 10:57 PM on June 6, 2020 [90 favorites]
America’s Test Kitchen The Proof podcast had a good episode about food waste last year: “The Pretty Big Problem of Ugly Food”
posted by Going To Maine at 11:03 PM on June 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:03 PM on June 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
+1000000 on the title and framing. Now off to read TFA.
posted by flabdablet at 11:03 PM on June 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 11:03 PM on June 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
I have a deep mistrust of this sort of article, and others from the outrider (on a casual perusal), not because I doubt that food waste is a problem (surely it is one) but because I view "what if we all made these personal choices to address climate change" as propaganda unless it also comes with a pretty big helping of "and by the way, while you're making your personal changes, here are the corporate polluters who are actually the problems" -- in other words, framing addressing climate change as a personal responsibility issue is deeply disingenuous. It's misdirection, meant to make you feel like you're doing something while the actual sources of the problem carry on with business as usual.
posted by axiom at 12:18 AM on June 7, 2020 [55 favorites]
posted by axiom at 12:18 AM on June 7, 2020 [55 favorites]
Here, it's illegal to put organic matter in the bin. Everyone has a little green composting bin, with compostable bags, that you get from the municipality. I think apart from the fact that when the whole country does it, it really makes a difference, the little green bin makes you think differently about food and food waste. You quickly begin to notice it if you put whole vegetables that have rotted in the drawer in the fridge in there.
My kids are in their twenties, and they get food from "WeFood", a store that sells food that is past the sale by date or ugly, and they look for the "save the food" sign at the supermarkets which indicates that the food is soon at the sale by date. There is more, mostly described in the article I linked to, but the general point is that they are much more thoughtful about what they eat and how they eat it than my generation was in our twenties.
The waste in the food industry is a huge problem, but we as consumers are part of that too. If we only want to buy the perfect fruit, it isn't strange that there is a lot of waste before that fruit hits the market. The best solution is to build an infrastructure for converting that waste into something valuable: apples into applejuice, cider and vinegar, the calves of dairy cows into food rather than landfill (and yes, we need to eat far less dairy products and meat). Some guys here have created a business out of collecting the coffee grinds from the cafes and they grow mushrooms in them. It began as a little thing, now it has a real impact.
But most of all we need an infrastructure for distributing the food to those who need it. It is so offensive that people are starving while food is wasted. Not just in Yemen, where there is a war going on, but in rich Western nations. How can that happen?
posted by mumimor at 12:54 AM on June 7, 2020 [8 favorites]
My kids are in their twenties, and they get food from "WeFood", a store that sells food that is past the sale by date or ugly, and they look for the "save the food" sign at the supermarkets which indicates that the food is soon at the sale by date. There is more, mostly described in the article I linked to, but the general point is that they are much more thoughtful about what they eat and how they eat it than my generation was in our twenties.
The waste in the food industry is a huge problem, but we as consumers are part of that too. If we only want to buy the perfect fruit, it isn't strange that there is a lot of waste before that fruit hits the market. The best solution is to build an infrastructure for converting that waste into something valuable: apples into applejuice, cider and vinegar, the calves of dairy cows into food rather than landfill (and yes, we need to eat far less dairy products and meat). Some guys here have created a business out of collecting the coffee grinds from the cafes and they grow mushrooms in them. It began as a little thing, now it has a real impact.
But most of all we need an infrastructure for distributing the food to those who need it. It is so offensive that people are starving while food is wasted. Not just in Yemen, where there is a war going on, but in rich Western nations. How can that happen?
posted by mumimor at 12:54 AM on June 7, 2020 [8 favorites]
But most of all we need an infrastructure for distributing the food to those who need it.
The problem is that the infrastructure exists to keep people hungry because that's where the profit is. Read Jean Ziegler's Betting on Famine for a good intro to the big systemic issues.
This isn't meant to discourage anyone from composting or reducing food waste at home; these are undoubtedly good things, but in the face of the systemic issues rather like bailing out the Titanic with an eggcup.
posted by Vortisaur at 1:15 AM on June 7, 2020 [13 favorites]
The problem is that the infrastructure exists to keep people hungry because that's where the profit is. Read Jean Ziegler's Betting on Famine for a good intro to the big systemic issues.
This isn't meant to discourage anyone from composting or reducing food waste at home; these are undoubtedly good things, but in the face of the systemic issues rather like bailing out the Titanic with an eggcup.
posted by Vortisaur at 1:15 AM on June 7, 2020 [13 favorites]
It ends up in the garbage because there's no safe way to dispose of it.
Yeah nah, not true. It's common practice by local government councils in my area. A waste management system can compost domestic food and garden waste including meat, and create a large supply of 'biocycle compost' for gardens.
It's an issue of will, not way.
posted by Thella at 1:32 AM on June 7, 2020 [7 favorites]
Yeah nah, not true. It's common practice by local government councils in my area. A waste management system can compost domestic food and garden waste including meat, and create a large supply of 'biocycle compost' for gardens.
It's an issue of will, not way.
posted by Thella at 1:32 AM on June 7, 2020 [7 favorites]
Food waste is clearly an issue, but it will always be an issue, because the world will never ever ever ever be able to match supply and demand to the grain. Well. Unless we somehow solve spoilage. Where’s Willy Wonka when you need him.
Quite apart from the fact that The Man has spent decades trying to convince everyone that climate change is a personal issue - yeah, I’m looking at you, you monster, yeah you, man in the mirror - and not a problem governments and industries ought to be solving.
posted by bookbook at 1:45 AM on June 7, 2020 [8 favorites]
Quite apart from the fact that The Man has spent decades trying to convince everyone that climate change is a personal issue - yeah, I’m looking at you, you monster, yeah you, man in the mirror - and not a problem governments and industries ought to be solving.
posted by bookbook at 1:45 AM on June 7, 2020 [8 favorites]
I can walk and chew gum. We need to do something about waste and fair food distribution on all levels, personal and political. I find it a bit hard to take people seriously if they have radical left political opinions while driving a big old gas guzzling car, flying all across the world and eating processed food (I'm thinking of a person I met once irl, not anyone on this site).
Food waste is clearly an issue, but it will always be an issue, because the world will never ever ever ever be able to match supply and demand to the grain. Well. Unless we somehow solve spoilage. Where’s Willy Wonka when you need him.
Why do you think we can't change that? I mean, we can probably not get down to 0 waste, but if we got down to 5% or even 10% food for composting, that would make a huge difference, and we can do that. We need innovators and investors who can transform the waste into good things. Like the guys I mentioned above who are using all the coffee grinds. You could start a business that goes around to all the fish-retailers on Saturdays and picks up the leftovers. Transform them into fish stew or soup and freeze or can it. The reason I mentioned apples above is that the entrepreneur Claus Meyer bought an old orchard where the apples were old fashioned and thought not commercially viable. He did two things: rebranded the apples and sold them in fancy paper bags, so they became hip, and started product development into different high-end products made from apples.
He has inspired many others to think of food production in new ways, and he is inspired by others here. It's not luddite, backwards thinking, it's using modern technology in different ways.
posted by mumimor at 2:20 AM on June 7, 2020 [13 favorites]
Food waste is clearly an issue, but it will always be an issue, because the world will never ever ever ever be able to match supply and demand to the grain. Well. Unless we somehow solve spoilage. Where’s Willy Wonka when you need him.
Why do you think we can't change that? I mean, we can probably not get down to 0 waste, but if we got down to 5% or even 10% food for composting, that would make a huge difference, and we can do that. We need innovators and investors who can transform the waste into good things. Like the guys I mentioned above who are using all the coffee grinds. You could start a business that goes around to all the fish-retailers on Saturdays and picks up the leftovers. Transform them into fish stew or soup and freeze or can it. The reason I mentioned apples above is that the entrepreneur Claus Meyer bought an old orchard where the apples were old fashioned and thought not commercially viable. He did two things: rebranded the apples and sold them in fancy paper bags, so they became hip, and started product development into different high-end products made from apples.
He has inspired many others to think of food production in new ways, and he is inspired by others here. It's not luddite, backwards thinking, it's using modern technology in different ways.
posted by mumimor at 2:20 AM on June 7, 2020 [13 favorites]
When I was living in Brooklyn I got used to municiple composting -- you could throw everything in, meat, bones, even the napkins.
I moved to Amsterdam and we don't have municiple composting here (ok, there are some limited community worm bins but you have to find out who runs them to get a key and what you can put in is limited). I was so trained by the composting in Brooklyn that it felt wrong throwing food and veg scraps in the garbage so I hunted around for a solution.
Currently I have a worm bin* indoors (because small apartment) and I toss all my veggie scraps and egg shells in and it doesn't smell at all. I got worms from one of the folks who manage the city worm bins.
To deal with the meat, bones, etc. I tried a bokashi bin and well.. it definitely works. When it's done fermenting I can toss the contents into the worm bin and it breaks down, I think, 5 to 10 times faster, and there are no bones or anything when I harvest the worm castings -- it really does all break down. But it does kinda smell. Not when it's just sitting there. Your guests (when you can have those again) won't smell it. But you definitely will when you open it to add scraps to it and when you clean it out, which is a pita if you don't have a yard with a hose. The smell is very much somewhere between miso and that sweeter fermented Korean miso-like paste, with the funk turned up a little. So, it's not a rotten food smell, but if you don't like the smell of miso, etc., you are not going to like dealing with bokashi. Or if you have to clean the bucket in a small kitchen. Oh, and if, like mine, your household goes through 4-5 clementines a day in the winter, do not put all those peels in the bucket because it makes it smell worse.
*This is the one I have, and I highly recommend it. You can do continuous flow by harvesting from the bottom tray and placing it back on the top. Regarding airflow, humidity it keeps in, etc., it seems perfectly designed. I never add water to it, only scraps and occasionally torn up egg cartons, and I drain off some liquid every three days or so, which I give to my plants.
posted by antinomia at 2:28 AM on June 7, 2020 [8 favorites]
I moved to Amsterdam and we don't have municiple composting here (ok, there are some limited community worm bins but you have to find out who runs them to get a key and what you can put in is limited). I was so trained by the composting in Brooklyn that it felt wrong throwing food and veg scraps in the garbage so I hunted around for a solution.
Currently I have a worm bin* indoors (because small apartment) and I toss all my veggie scraps and egg shells in and it doesn't smell at all. I got worms from one of the folks who manage the city worm bins.
To deal with the meat, bones, etc. I tried a bokashi bin and well.. it definitely works. When it's done fermenting I can toss the contents into the worm bin and it breaks down, I think, 5 to 10 times faster, and there are no bones or anything when I harvest the worm castings -- it really does all break down. But it does kinda smell. Not when it's just sitting there. Your guests (when you can have those again) won't smell it. But you definitely will when you open it to add scraps to it and when you clean it out, which is a pita if you don't have a yard with a hose. The smell is very much somewhere between miso and that sweeter fermented Korean miso-like paste, with the funk turned up a little. So, it's not a rotten food smell, but if you don't like the smell of miso, etc., you are not going to like dealing with bokashi. Or if you have to clean the bucket in a small kitchen. Oh, and if, like mine, your household goes through 4-5 clementines a day in the winter, do not put all those peels in the bucket because it makes it smell worse.
*This is the one I have, and I highly recommend it. You can do continuous flow by harvesting from the bottom tray and placing it back on the top. Regarding airflow, humidity it keeps in, etc., it seems perfectly designed. I never add water to it, only scraps and occasionally torn up egg cartons, and I drain off some liquid every three days or so, which I give to my plants.
posted by antinomia at 2:28 AM on June 7, 2020 [8 favorites]
Life of a Strawberry: an Oscar-worthy stop food waste PSA from 2016.
posted by fairmettle at 3:14 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 3:14 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
Remember
https://www.metafilter.com/187157/Its-moving-there-it-is-Oh-my-god-Im-gonna-barf - aka fresh strawberries
That is another part of the problem - we want sterile/sterilised food. Some of the most jaw-dropping waste I have personally seen is the treatment of food that I would have considered edible once cooked - but it was "dirty", "bruised" or "bleeding" or something which required cutting most of it into the rubbish bin or washed down the sink.
If you think that the tomato sauce/ketchup consists of carefully cleaned pieces of tomato - consider that is the advantage of cooking things.
Can I advocate for chickens as another worthwhile recycling process? Friends have a pet chicken in a small backyard and she is a champion pest destroyer and recycler. I need to get my garden organised - so that I can have three chickens as I have the worst infestation of oxalis or sour sob.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 3:39 AM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
https://www.metafilter.com/187157/Its-moving-there-it-is-Oh-my-god-Im-gonna-barf - aka fresh strawberries
That is another part of the problem - we want sterile/sterilised food. Some of the most jaw-dropping waste I have personally seen is the treatment of food that I would have considered edible once cooked - but it was "dirty", "bruised" or "bleeding" or something which required cutting most of it into the rubbish bin or washed down the sink.
If you think that the tomato sauce/ketchup consists of carefully cleaned pieces of tomato - consider that is the advantage of cooking things.
Can I advocate for chickens as another worthwhile recycling process? Friends have a pet chicken in a small backyard and she is a champion pest destroyer and recycler. I need to get my garden organised - so that I can have three chickens as I have the worst infestation of oxalis or sour sob.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 3:39 AM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
Life of a Strawberry : an Oscar-worthy stop food waste PSA from 2016.
My granddad loved strawberries and he always bought too many, because he wanted to share the love. After dinner, my grandma would put the leftovers in the fridge, and then if they weren't midnight-snacked away in the morning, she make a little jam of them, which she had on her breakfast roll, I preferred it on yogurt, but I remember that summer morning smell in the kitchen, of toasting bread and strawberries cooking. Waste not want not.
posted by mumimor at 4:14 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
My granddad loved strawberries and he always bought too many, because he wanted to share the love. After dinner, my grandma would put the leftovers in the fridge, and then if they weren't midnight-snacked away in the morning, she make a little jam of them, which she had on her breakfast roll, I preferred it on yogurt, but I remember that summer morning smell in the kitchen, of toasting bread and strawberries cooking. Waste not want not.
posted by mumimor at 4:14 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
TFA in the first link does address that it's something that must be tackled all along the supply chain. Going to read the rest of the links now but first a shout out to my favorite retailer: Last year 70 Wegmans stores diverted 32.5 million pounds of food waste from landfills through the company’s programs.
posted by evilmomlady at 4:18 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by evilmomlady at 4:18 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
And a shout out to Woolworths for their Odd Bunch line of veggies - perfectly sound food in somewhat nonstandard shapes, that would otherwise have ended up in landfill, sold at discounted rates. I love being able to pay less for delicious ingredients that are apparently just not quite Food Porn enough to suit most punters.
posted by flabdablet at 4:45 AM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 4:45 AM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
Friends have a pet chicken in a small backyard and she is a champion pest destroyer and recycler.
We have six in our large one, and they are indeed champion recyclers. Plus, you'll never go back to store-bought eggs after finding out how good properly fresh ones are.
posted by flabdablet at 4:48 AM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
We have six in our large one, and they are indeed champion recyclers. Plus, you'll never go back to store-bought eggs after finding out how good properly fresh ones are.
posted by flabdablet at 4:48 AM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
In the States, a problem that combines systems and individuals, I think, is our aesthetic expectations in the grocery store. We want mounds and mounds of beautiful onions, peppers, potatoes on display at all times... having to constantly restock so that every pile of produce is a cornucopia can't be good for efficiency?
In the 1980s when I was in college we had a little organic co-op on campus, and it took me forever to realize that I could buy a tomato even if there were only 6 tomatoes in the tomato section and they weren't "perfect". That if I want 1 little bunch of bananas (and jeez, where do bananas even come from?) it's okay to choose from 2 bunches.
We don't like shopping in an aisle that isn't packed, as the pandemic has made clear... I don't know. I feel like this is part of the huge, multi-faceted problem.
posted by allthinky at 5:54 AM on June 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
In the 1980s when I was in college we had a little organic co-op on campus, and it took me forever to realize that I could buy a tomato even if there were only 6 tomatoes in the tomato section and they weren't "perfect". That if I want 1 little bunch of bananas (and jeez, where do bananas even come from?) it's okay to choose from 2 bunches.
We don't like shopping in an aisle that isn't packed, as the pandemic has made clear... I don't know. I feel like this is part of the huge, multi-faceted problem.
posted by allthinky at 5:54 AM on June 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
I don't disagree that the waste discussed here is a big problem, but in my opinion the dumbest environmental problem involving food is turning it into vehicle fuel.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:00 AM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:00 AM on June 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
I don't disagree that the waste discussed here is a big problem, but in my opinion the dumbest environmental problem involving food is turning it into vehicle fuel.
I don't know. Here the gas made from our compost is among other things used for the 5A bus line, which is the most used in the entire city because it runs between almost all the poorer neighborhoods. The alternative to that would not be everyone walking or biking, but the many busses running on diesel. Don't let the perfect be an enemy of the good.
posted by mumimor at 7:08 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
I don't know. Here the gas made from our compost is among other things used for the 5A bus line, which is the most used in the entire city because it runs between almost all the poorer neighborhoods. The alternative to that would not be everyone walking or biking, but the many busses running on diesel. Don't let the perfect be an enemy of the good.
posted by mumimor at 7:08 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
Making fuel ethanol from purpose-grown corn is indeed a stupid waste of resources. It ought to be made from perennial native grasses instead.
I can see nothing wrong with using food scraps as feedstock for decentralized biogas production, given that they would otherwise need to be managed as waste. Deliberately growing food-grade crops to feed biogas digesters would be stupid, though, given that they'll run on all kinds of inputs that we're already just wasting.
Apart from biogas being pretty easy to refine to the point where you could run an internal combustion engine on it, it makes a good feedstock for the Hazer Process which can cheaply turn methane into fuel-cell-grade hydrogen and battery-electrode-grade graphite while emitting very little, if any, carbon dioxide.
Point is that there are smart ways and stupid ways to do just about anything, and finding ways to get value from stuff that's currently usually wasted is almost always pretty smart.
posted by flabdablet at 7:25 AM on June 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
I can see nothing wrong with using food scraps as feedstock for decentralized biogas production, given that they would otherwise need to be managed as waste. Deliberately growing food-grade crops to feed biogas digesters would be stupid, though, given that they'll run on all kinds of inputs that we're already just wasting.
Apart from biogas being pretty easy to refine to the point where you could run an internal combustion engine on it, it makes a good feedstock for the Hazer Process which can cheaply turn methane into fuel-cell-grade hydrogen and battery-electrode-grade graphite while emitting very little, if any, carbon dioxide.
Point is that there are smart ways and stupid ways to do just about anything, and finding ways to get value from stuff that's currently usually wasted is almost always pretty smart.
posted by flabdablet at 7:25 AM on June 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
I don't know. Here the gas made from our compost is among other things used for the 5A bus line, which is the most used in the entire city because it runs between almost all the poorer neighborhoods.
I believe what Kirth Gerson is referring to is the business of growing square miles of corn to be processed into ethanol, to be blended with gasoline for cars. It's a huge business here in the US midwest. Like, the agri-economy of states depend on it.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:32 AM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
I believe what Kirth Gerson is referring to is the business of growing square miles of corn to be processed into ethanol, to be blended with gasoline for cars. It's a huge business here in the US midwest. Like, the agri-economy of states depend on it.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:32 AM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
The waste in the food industry is a huge problem, but we as consumers are part of that too.
Really? Exactly how large a part do we play? Where is any data showing the effectiveness of consumers' personal choices and personal actions in addressing this problem? Nobody has even collected any data on this, or any other environmental activist pet issue that focuses on consumer choices. It's not an accident that the data isn't readily available: it's deliberate obfuscation and misdirection for profit.
In the absence of data collection, I refuse to waste a single ounce of energy even considering how I can make food waste better through my personal choices. Neither should any of you. Your energy is finite, there are *many* other extremely worthy concerns you could put your efforts towards for which data DOES exist to show that your efforts will have an impact. It's irresponsible for any of us to waste our time buying corporate propaganda that says consumers are the problem.
And it is propaganda, make no mistake. It's such transparently illogical propaganda that my mind boggles at how folks who exhibit excellent critical thinking skills in general still fall for the bullshit and repeat it like a meme. Take for instance this article about Denmark that was linked above, which is billed as "consumer choices can make a difference!" The article's spin was repeated on this thread as if it's true. But it's straight-up 1984 shit in here:
But we're all so brainwashed by the myth of "personal choices made an impact!" that we don't notice all these black-is-white propaganda that pervades environmental activism messaging not only in this article but everywhere else. Check this out, also from the linked article:
Stop telling us to pull the whole planet up by our own personal bootstraps, folks. There is no data and no logical reason to think it can be done.
If you must recommend personal action that we can take without any data to show how effective our work will be or any data to show we are even addressing the correct aspects of the problem, then at least bet on the most likely personal actions that can save us: lobbying legislators for policy change and getting them to rein in corporate excesses.
posted by MiraK at 8:02 AM on June 7, 2020 [26 favorites]
Really? Exactly how large a part do we play? Where is any data showing the effectiveness of consumers' personal choices and personal actions in addressing this problem? Nobody has even collected any data on this, or any other environmental activist pet issue that focuses on consumer choices. It's not an accident that the data isn't readily available: it's deliberate obfuscation and misdirection for profit.
In the absence of data collection, I refuse to waste a single ounce of energy even considering how I can make food waste better through my personal choices. Neither should any of you. Your energy is finite, there are *many* other extremely worthy concerns you could put your efforts towards for which data DOES exist to show that your efforts will have an impact. It's irresponsible for any of us to waste our time buying corporate propaganda that says consumers are the problem.
And it is propaganda, make no mistake. It's such transparently illogical propaganda that my mind boggles at how folks who exhibit excellent critical thinking skills in general still fall for the bullshit and repeat it like a meme. Take for instance this article about Denmark that was linked above, which is billed as "consumer choices can make a difference!" The article's spin was repeated on this thread as if it's true. But it's straight-up 1984 shit in here:
[Denmark's] success [in cutting food waste by 25%] is largely down to changing shoppers’ habits. Last year two branches of a supermarket called WeFood opened in Copenhagen. The shops only sell food that has passed its sell-by date.Like, wtf? In what universe is corporations building supermarkets that sell "expired" food counted as a change in shoppers' behavior? Literally every "best practice" mentioned in that article for cutting food waste is corporations changing their behavior: corporations selling smaller loaves of bread, corporations eliminating discounts on bulk purchases, corporations deciding to work with nonprofits and corporations deciding to listen to activists.
But we're all so brainwashed by the myth of "personal choices made an impact!" that we don't notice all these black-is-white propaganda that pervades environmental activism messaging not only in this article but everywhere else. Check this out, also from the linked article:
A postgraduate student at New York University, Holtzman thinks it is partly a matter of raising awareness so that people can make their own choices. ... This spring she also plans to spend a month dumpster diving – living off food she finds in bins outside shops and restaurants.Dumpster diving is illegal. ILLEGAL. You're telling people to make "personal choices" to save the planet -- and those personal choices involve risking arrest by doing illegal shit? I ... just... can't with this white girl nonsense.
Stop telling us to pull the whole planet up by our own personal bootstraps, folks. There is no data and no logical reason to think it can be done.
If you must recommend personal action that we can take without any data to show how effective our work will be or any data to show we are even addressing the correct aspects of the problem, then at least bet on the most likely personal actions that can save us: lobbying legislators for policy change and getting them to rein in corporate excesses.
posted by MiraK at 8:02 AM on June 7, 2020 [26 favorites]
Working out well, is it?
posted by FeatherWatt at 8:27 AM on June 7, 2020
posted by FeatherWatt at 8:27 AM on June 7, 2020
I believe what Kirth Gerson is referring to is the business of growing square miles of corn to be processed into ethanol, to be blended with gasoline for cars.
Yes, that's what I was talking about. If you're going to encourage growing corn, use it to feed people. So long as there are people going hungry, using corn to feed cars is immoral and stupid.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:29 AM on June 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
Yes, that's what I was talking about. If you're going to encourage growing corn, use it to feed people. So long as there are people going hungry, using corn to feed cars is immoral and stupid.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:29 AM on June 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
[Denmark's] success [in cutting food waste by 25%] is largely down to changing shoppers’ habits. Last year two branches of a supermarket called WeFood opened in Copenhagen. The shops only sell food that has passed its sell-by date.
Like, wtf? In what universe is corporations building supermarkets that sell "expired" food counted as a change in shoppers' behavior? Literally every "best practice" mentioned in that article for cutting food waste is corporations changing their behavior: corporations selling smaller loaves of bread, corporations eliminating discounts on bulk purchases, corporations deciding to work with nonprofits and corporations deciding to listen to activists.
Just for the sake of accuracy: WeFood is a NGO, it is entirely run by activists at every level. They get the food for free, and their only expense is the rent and utilities for the spaces where they sell the food. There is no profit involved at all. Sometimes they do a thing where a small profit goes to some cause, and it is then clearly marked. In Denmark, we have tons of alternative providers of produce, but WeFood and the corporations' changes of policy have reached the people who are too poor for alternatives, including the homeless and illegal immigrants.
The changes in corporations' practices has meant a lot for me as a single person. Now I can buy one or two carrots, instead of a whole bag. I can buy produce without having to buy a plastic container or bag. If you don't think that makes a difference, I don't know what to tell you.
And again: changing your personal habits does not exclude working for political change. It just makes you more credible. I do political work as well as trying to live a more sustainable life the best I can.
About dumpster diving, which I agree is problematic: the activists who did this here were drivers for the change that made restaurants and stores hand over their food directly to NGOs. So while their actions were illegal, the result was positive.
I don't think my country is perfect at all, and I vote so far to the left that Bernie Sanders looks like a conservative in my eyes. But I do want to tell this international forum that change can happen and you can make it happen.
posted by mumimor at 8:30 AM on June 7, 2020 [10 favorites]
Like, wtf? In what universe is corporations building supermarkets that sell "expired" food counted as a change in shoppers' behavior? Literally every "best practice" mentioned in that article for cutting food waste is corporations changing their behavior: corporations selling smaller loaves of bread, corporations eliminating discounts on bulk purchases, corporations deciding to work with nonprofits and corporations deciding to listen to activists.
Just for the sake of accuracy: WeFood is a NGO, it is entirely run by activists at every level. They get the food for free, and their only expense is the rent and utilities for the spaces where they sell the food. There is no profit involved at all. Sometimes they do a thing where a small profit goes to some cause, and it is then clearly marked. In Denmark, we have tons of alternative providers of produce, but WeFood and the corporations' changes of policy have reached the people who are too poor for alternatives, including the homeless and illegal immigrants.
The changes in corporations' practices has meant a lot for me as a single person. Now I can buy one or two carrots, instead of a whole bag. I can buy produce without having to buy a plastic container or bag. If you don't think that makes a difference, I don't know what to tell you.
And again: changing your personal habits does not exclude working for political change. It just makes you more credible. I do political work as well as trying to live a more sustainable life the best I can.
About dumpster diving, which I agree is problematic: the activists who did this here were drivers for the change that made restaurants and stores hand over their food directly to NGOs. So while their actions were illegal, the result was positive.
I don't think my country is perfect at all, and I vote so far to the left that Bernie Sanders looks like a conservative in my eyes. But I do want to tell this international forum that change can happen and you can make it happen.
posted by mumimor at 8:30 AM on June 7, 2020 [10 favorites]
Really? Exactly how large a part do we play?
125kg of food waste per person per year out of 300kg/person/year total food waste is consumer waste in North America & Oceania. I hope that helps.
posted by ambrosen at 8:34 AM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
125kg of food waste per person per year out of 300kg/person/year total food waste is consumer waste in North America & Oceania. I hope that helps.
posted by ambrosen at 8:34 AM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
Is opposition to preservatives any part of the problem?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:36 AM on June 7, 2020
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:36 AM on June 7, 2020
Dumpster diving is illegal. ILLEGAL.
You want to put me in prison for taking good food from the trash? Or do you care more about following the rules blindly than what the rules are?
Police brutality is legal, but it doesn't make it right. Dumpster diving food is illegal in some circumstances, but it doesn't make it wrong.
posted by Radiophonic Oddity at 8:57 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
You want to put me in prison for taking good food from the trash? Or do you care more about following the rules blindly than what the rules are?
Police brutality is legal, but it doesn't make it right. Dumpster diving food is illegal in some circumstances, but it doesn't make it wrong.
posted by Radiophonic Oddity at 8:57 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
One of the really sad things about American exceptionalism is that Americans rarely examine how things are done outside America. You guys have a huge country right next door that handles stuff like immigration and weapons much better.
I live in a country that has welfare down to a T and we still argue about it all the time. No-one starves here. We have racism and other common fails, but there are things we do fine, like most other EU countries.
What I'm trying to say is that it is very common, even here on MetaFilter, to see people claiming "that is impossible!", even as it exists all over the world. Don't do that to yourselves. You can have healthcare, welfare, and other basic human rights like everyone else can. As usual when it comes to healthcare, Cuba has a better record than most neighbors on COVID-19. Why outcompete Cuba on military instead of healthcare?
posted by mumimor at 9:21 AM on June 7, 2020 [16 favorites]
I live in a country that has welfare down to a T and we still argue about it all the time. No-one starves here. We have racism and other common fails, but there are things we do fine, like most other EU countries.
What I'm trying to say is that it is very common, even here on MetaFilter, to see people claiming "that is impossible!", even as it exists all over the world. Don't do that to yourselves. You can have healthcare, welfare, and other basic human rights like everyone else can. As usual when it comes to healthcare, Cuba has a better record than most neighbors on COVID-19. Why outcompete Cuba on military instead of healthcare?
posted by mumimor at 9:21 AM on June 7, 2020 [16 favorites]
You want to put me in prison for taking good food from the trash? Or do you care more about following the rules blindly than what the rules are?
I don't think MiraK wants anyone to go to prison or that they would call the cops if they saw you dumpster-diving. They are pointing out that an obvious step to reduce food waste is illegal in most places- taking food out of the trash harms no one or nothing other than, potentially, the bottom line of groceries and restaurants who want people to buy food through the front door instead of taking free food from the back door. This is evidence that pro-environment or anti-waste marketing from corporations is just that, marketing, and is not to be trusted - because these same corporations will sooner see a million tons of perfectly good food go to landfill while people go hungry than lose a hundredth of a percent of their profit (and it could be argued that it's just pure hatefulness, rather than protecting profits, because many times the food that's taken from the back door goes to feed people who would never have been able to shop or buy food from that establishment to begin with).
posted by cilantro at 9:41 AM on June 7, 2020 [13 favorites]
I don't think MiraK wants anyone to go to prison or that they would call the cops if they saw you dumpster-diving. They are pointing out that an obvious step to reduce food waste is illegal in most places- taking food out of the trash harms no one or nothing other than, potentially, the bottom line of groceries and restaurants who want people to buy food through the front door instead of taking free food from the back door. This is evidence that pro-environment or anti-waste marketing from corporations is just that, marketing, and is not to be trusted - because these same corporations will sooner see a million tons of perfectly good food go to landfill while people go hungry than lose a hundredth of a percent of their profit (and it could be argued that it's just pure hatefulness, rather than protecting profits, because many times the food that's taken from the back door goes to feed people who would never have been able to shop or buy food from that establishment to begin with).
posted by cilantro at 9:41 AM on June 7, 2020 [13 favorites]
In the absence of data collection, I refuse to waste a single ounce of energy even considering how I can make food waste better through my personal choices. Neither should any of you.
Well, that kind of depends on why I want to make food waste better through my personal choices.
I labour under no illusions that anything I do personally is going to have much of an effect on anybody outside my own immediate circles. The reason I do my best to avoid generating food waste is not that I believe doing so will make a significant difference to the health of the planet, but because I, personally, find the idea of wasting food to be offensive.
And that, in turn, is because I personally find the idea of wasting anything to be offensive. It's just something I try not to do.
I just can't see the point in working hard to get money to buy stuff that I'm only going to throw away once I have it. Also, doing that feels really disrespectful toward people who have to work harder than I do to get less than I have.
posted by flabdablet at 9:52 AM on June 7, 2020 [7 favorites]
Well, that kind of depends on why I want to make food waste better through my personal choices.
I labour under no illusions that anything I do personally is going to have much of an effect on anybody outside my own immediate circles. The reason I do my best to avoid generating food waste is not that I believe doing so will make a significant difference to the health of the planet, but because I, personally, find the idea of wasting food to be offensive.
And that, in turn, is because I personally find the idea of wasting anything to be offensive. It's just something I try not to do.
I just can't see the point in working hard to get money to buy stuff that I'm only going to throw away once I have it. Also, doing that feels really disrespectful toward people who have to work harder than I do to get less than I have.
posted by flabdablet at 9:52 AM on June 7, 2020 [7 favorites]
>Like, wtf? In what universe is corporations building supermarkets that sell "expired" food counted as a change in shoppers' behavior?
Well, we have a few of those in the US, and if people bought more from them they'd be more profitable and more would open...
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 10:00 AM on June 7, 2020
Well, we have a few of those in the US, and if people bought more from them they'd be more profitable and more would open...
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 10:00 AM on June 7, 2020
Corporations are a problem - as are government regulations - and it has long been thus. During the Great Depression, food was being destroyed while people were starving - the food was destroyed to make it inedible so that the starving could not consume the waste. This happened in the US and may other countries.
At the moment - due to disrupted supply chains - a lot of food is being destroyed. To the extent that food harvesting and processing is done by poor people - food workers are being exposed to conditions that increase their risk of infection. Again, in many countries.
Collective action is important and effective - but food consumption is an area where scrutiny of supply and waste chains can have a deep impact. You buy a device once every three-ish years; clothes every six to twelve months; food is every week.
My take on it - I work, I pay my taxes and I end up with after tax income that I use to buy food. I then spend time to buy it and prepare it - why would I waste all of the effort to then throw good food in to the rubbish?
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 10:05 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
At the moment - due to disrupted supply chains - a lot of food is being destroyed. To the extent that food harvesting and processing is done by poor people - food workers are being exposed to conditions that increase their risk of infection. Again, in many countries.
Collective action is important and effective - but food consumption is an area where scrutiny of supply and waste chains can have a deep impact. You buy a device once every three-ish years; clothes every six to twelve months; food is every week.
My take on it - I work, I pay my taxes and I end up with after tax income that I use to buy food. I then spend time to buy it and prepare it - why would I waste all of the effort to then throw good food in to the rubbish?
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 10:05 AM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
For those who can keep them, chickens are a great way to keep food from being wasted. My friends and family all save their still edible, but unwanted food (like restaurant leftovers and stale tortilla chips) and bring them to my chickens. The chickens are properly grateful in the form of fresh eggs. Composting is another GREAT way to save food from being wasted. I have successfully composted on an apartment balcony using a bin made out of an old plastic kitty litter box, so I know it can be done even with space limitations. Finally, for those with instapots, we cook all our meat bones in the instapot for 3-6 hours then combine in the blender with water and make a paste that we mix I to the dog food. You need to be careful not to give too much at a time because it's quite rich, but the dogs love it and it seems to be working well for them. We've been doing this for about 6 years now and folks are always amazed that my 11 year old great Pyrenees is still running 4 miles with me every day.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 10:22 AM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 10:22 AM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
The changes in corporations' practices has meant a lot for me as a single person. ... If you don't think that makes a difference, I don't know what to tell you.
Of course corporate choices make a huge difference. That was the main point I was making in my comment. And of course activists who focus their efforts on policy change (let's make dumpster diving legal, let people sell "expired" food, let's end corn subsidies, etc.) and activists who build real structural and institutional alternatives to corporate food supply chains make a huge difference too. That was the secondary point I was making!
My position is not that "we can't do anything so we shouldn't try!" or "nothing makes a difference anyway so whatever!" etc.
My position is: let's stop spreading corporate propaganda that goes, "consumers' personal choices are a significant part of the problem and changing consumers' personal behaviors will significantly solve the problem." As far as we know, this is false.
> Well, we have a few [grocery stores that sell expired food] in the US, and if people bought more from them they'd be more profitable and more would open...
Do you happen to have any more information or case studies or data on these stores? I'd love to find out more. If it really is the case that consumer behavior is limiting the profitability or growth of these stores, I'll readily change my mind and get behind any effort to encourage people to shop there (i.e. an effort to change individual behavior, which is the thing I've been ranting against).
However, my entire state has exactly one "Salvage Grocery Store", as they're known, and there is no information or data I can find about how profitable or popular it is in its community (nor can I find this information about any other such grocery store in the US). In the absence of information and data about it, we have no excuse for adopting this moralizing tut-tut-bad-consumers line that comes straight from corporate propaganda. Unless we know it's the individual consumers' fault, we should not be blaming them.... Especially when we do have so much data on corporate shenanigans that entail deliberately creating waste to safeguard profitability (book sellers throwing out books, designers burning excess clothing, grocery stores dumping food and prosecuting dumpster divers).
posted by MiraK at 11:27 AM on June 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
Of course corporate choices make a huge difference. That was the main point I was making in my comment. And of course activists who focus their efforts on policy change (let's make dumpster diving legal, let people sell "expired" food, let's end corn subsidies, etc.) and activists who build real structural and institutional alternatives to corporate food supply chains make a huge difference too. That was the secondary point I was making!
My position is not that "we can't do anything so we shouldn't try!" or "nothing makes a difference anyway so whatever!" etc.
My position is: let's stop spreading corporate propaganda that goes, "consumers' personal choices are a significant part of the problem and changing consumers' personal behaviors will significantly solve the problem." As far as we know, this is false.
> Well, we have a few [grocery stores that sell expired food] in the US, and if people bought more from them they'd be more profitable and more would open...
Do you happen to have any more information or case studies or data on these stores? I'd love to find out more. If it really is the case that consumer behavior is limiting the profitability or growth of these stores, I'll readily change my mind and get behind any effort to encourage people to shop there (i.e. an effort to change individual behavior, which is the thing I've been ranting against).
However, my entire state has exactly one "Salvage Grocery Store", as they're known, and there is no information or data I can find about how profitable or popular it is in its community (nor can I find this information about any other such grocery store in the US). In the absence of information and data about it, we have no excuse for adopting this moralizing tut-tut-bad-consumers line that comes straight from corporate propaganda. Unless we know it's the individual consumers' fault, we should not be blaming them.... Especially when we do have so much data on corporate shenanigans that entail deliberately creating waste to safeguard profitability (book sellers throwing out books, designers burning excess clothing, grocery stores dumping food and prosecuting dumpster divers).
posted by MiraK at 11:27 AM on June 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
consumers' personal choices are a significant part of the problem
40% of food waste in North America and Oceania is thrown away by consumers.
posted by ambrosen at 11:37 AM on June 7, 2020
40% of food waste in North America and Oceania is thrown away by consumers.
posted by ambrosen at 11:37 AM on June 7, 2020
It's been ages since I lived in the US already (I'm getting old faster than I thought), so I don't know: are there legal or economical hindrances to building cooperatives in the US? Here, the cooperatives are a foundational part of culture: dairies, meat processors, supermarkets are to a large degree cooperative. When I was younger, so were breweries, housing associations, construction companies, schools, transportation systems, healthcare and a lot more I've forgotten. We are not so much Social Democrats as we are cooperative, across political parties. There are good reasons this partially ended*, but where the US is now, it might be a way to get ahead? It seems to me there could be a very obvious alliance between small holding farmers and urban workers of color.
*really only partially, I still own a part of my local supermarket and that is a good thing
posted by mumimor at 11:48 AM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
*really only partially, I still own a part of my local supermarket and that is a good thing
posted by mumimor at 11:48 AM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
> 40% of food waste in North America and Oceania is thrown away by consumers.
This person who is from Canada and lives in the Netherlands observed that the North American habit of shopping in bulk could have something to do with it. I think it’s a very compelling thought, but it doesn’t really help to assign blame: North American households buy food in too large quantities because they don’t have grocery shops they can walk to – a systemic issue. They don’t have these grocery shops because they want to live in suburban places which are geometrically ill-suited to provide basically any kind of service in walking distance – a consumer-level issue. They want to live in suburban places because…
posted by wachhundfisch at 12:06 PM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
This person who is from Canada and lives in the Netherlands observed that the North American habit of shopping in bulk could have something to do with it. I think it’s a very compelling thought, but it doesn’t really help to assign blame: North American households buy food in too large quantities because they don’t have grocery shops they can walk to – a systemic issue. They don’t have these grocery shops because they want to live in suburban places which are geometrically ill-suited to provide basically any kind of service in walking distance – a consumer-level issue. They want to live in suburban places because…
posted by wachhundfisch at 12:06 PM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
> >Really? Exactly how large a part do we play?
> 125kg of food waste per person per year out of 300kg/person/year total food waste is consumer waste in North America & Oceania. I hope that helps.
I find this data fascinating, right, and I looked up the info you're giving me. And this is what I found:
And the thing is, not even the 238 lbs of food per person per year is all household waste which is under the control of the consumer, because:
But wait, there's even more! Not only does that 238 lbs per person per year number include restaurant portions over which consumers have no direct control, the number also includes INEDIBLE food waste!
Let's take this another step further, however. In any human undertaking, a certain amount of waste is unavoidable. If you're doing a construction project or landscaping your yard, you will be advised to purchase 10% extra materials to cover breakages and weird angles and such. Even goldsmiths who are insanely careful about wastage because they literally work with gold estimate a standard 5% wastage.
So percentage of American households' total food goes to waste? In considering this, I have no way to remove food wasted due to restaurant servings so let's just keep it in the number. But since we do know that only 1/3 of the food we throw away in our homes is unused edible food, spoiled food, or leftovers, I'm going to take the amount of actual food wasted by individual americans in their households to be 1/3rd of 238 lbs, i.e. 79 lbs of food per person per year.
79 lbs out of a total of 1996 lbs of food consumed per American person per year.
The percentage of food we waste in our households is 3.9%.
Folks. Americans waste less food in our households than goldsmiths waste gold.
Please think about this the next time you feel like pointing fingers at individual consumers when talking about food waste.
posted by MiraK at 12:26 PM on June 7, 2020 [14 favorites]
> 125kg of food waste per person per year out of 300kg/person/year total food waste is consumer waste in North America & Oceania. I hope that helps.
I find this data fascinating, right, and I looked up the info you're giving me. And this is what I found:
ReFED estimates U.S. household food waste totals 76 billion pounds, or 238 pounds of food perThis is a very far cry from the 660 lbs (300 kg)/person/year number that you cited, ambrosen. Where did you get your number from? Is that just a number that shows the total amount of food waste divided by the number of people?
person annually.
And the thing is, not even the 238 lbs of food per person per year is all household waste which is under the control of the consumer, because:
However, the agency’s definition includes both households and “out of home” consumption (e.g., in restaurants).Which means if you ordered a salad at a restaurant and you were served the usual metric fuckton of lettuce enough to drown a baby in, that counts as food wasted by YOU in this metric, but of course this is the restaurant industry taking away all consumer choice by forcibly serving you a bigger portion of salad than humans can safely eat.
But wait, there's even more! Not only does that 238 lbs per person per year number include restaurant portions over which consumers have no direct control, the number also includes INEDIBLE food waste!
Estimates vary as to how much of the food discarded in homes is edible. A study of 100 Seattle residents found that about one-third of food wasted in homes was edible [or formerly edible], while two-thirds consisted of inedible scraps (such as banana peels, eggshells, and bones)Like. This is the extent to which you have to stoop to blame individual consumers for food waste: you have to exaggerate the actual amount of waste generated directly by customers by 300%, you have to include food waste that consumers have no control over by including restaurant servings, and you have to count folks throwing away eggshells and chicken bones as "food waste". No matter how well-meaning an activist is, they will pull several muscles executing that stretch.
Let's take this another step further, however. In any human undertaking, a certain amount of waste is unavoidable. If you're doing a construction project or landscaping your yard, you will be advised to purchase 10% extra materials to cover breakages and weird angles and such. Even goldsmiths who are insanely careful about wastage because they literally work with gold estimate a standard 5% wastage.
So percentage of American households' total food goes to waste? In considering this, I have no way to remove food wasted due to restaurant servings so let's just keep it in the number. But since we do know that only 1/3 of the food we throw away in our homes is unused edible food, spoiled food, or leftovers, I'm going to take the amount of actual food wasted by individual americans in their households to be 1/3rd of 238 lbs, i.e. 79 lbs of food per person per year.
79 lbs out of a total of 1996 lbs of food consumed per American person per year.
The percentage of food we waste in our households is 3.9%.
Folks. Americans waste less food in our households than goldsmiths waste gold.
Please think about this the next time you feel like pointing fingers at individual consumers when talking about food waste.
posted by MiraK at 12:26 PM on June 7, 2020 [14 favorites]
>> consumers' personal choices are a significant part of the problem
> 40% of food waste in North America and Oceania is thrown away by consumers.
(1) Do we have any data on what percentage of that is chicken bones and banana peels?
(2) Do you happen to know why that number is so different from USDA's figure of 21%?
There is so much bad, conflicting, unreadable, ill-defined, and even obviously invalid data here. Such a dearth of actual studies and real measures. Let's drop our moralizing and posturing, shall we, and hold off on blaming consumers until we know better? In the absence of actual information, it's good practice to focus on the usual suspects.
posted by MiraK at 12:48 PM on June 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
> 40% of food waste in North America and Oceania is thrown away by consumers.
(1) Do we have any data on what percentage of that is chicken bones and banana peels?
(2) Do you happen to know why that number is so different from USDA's figure of 21%?
There is so much bad, conflicting, unreadable, ill-defined, and even obviously invalid data here. Such a dearth of actual studies and real measures. Let's drop our moralizing and posturing, shall we, and hold off on blaming consumers until we know better? In the absence of actual information, it's good practice to focus on the usual suspects.
posted by MiraK at 12:48 PM on June 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
Ambrosen, the UN report says on page 5 that 300 kg/person/year is "Per capita food losses and waste, at consumption and pre-consumptions stages". So they are not counting consumer food waste, they are counting ALL food waste at every stage of the supply chain, right from unharvested crop, and averaging it out over the population. That's a misleading figure to cite when you talk about consumer choices.
posted by MiraK at 12:52 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by MiraK at 12:52 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
MiraK, perhaps this is not about you?
I know we are wasting much less than we did.
I know we always wasted much less than family members who live a suburban lifestyle, buying in bulk every Saturday.
I know, because we discussed this in our family at length before it even became a public issue.
There are TV shows here that discuss waste and visit families to help them reduce it. It is very clear that many families buy a lot of food they don't eat. I don't think they are outliers.
A thing I thought about today is that people who mainly buy processed food waste far less. It may be less healthy and they may be paying too much for low-quality food, but a microwave dinner probably has a very low level of waste, at every stage of it's development and consumption.
posted by mumimor at 1:03 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
I know we are wasting much less than we did.
I know we always wasted much less than family members who live a suburban lifestyle, buying in bulk every Saturday.
I know, because we discussed this in our family at length before it even became a public issue.
There are TV shows here that discuss waste and visit families to help them reduce it. It is very clear that many families buy a lot of food they don't eat. I don't think they are outliers.
A thing I thought about today is that people who mainly buy processed food waste far less. It may be less healthy and they may be paying too much for low-quality food, but a microwave dinner probably has a very low level of waste, at every stage of it's development and consumption.
posted by mumimor at 1:03 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
mumimor, I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I'm making this about myself? It's great if anyone wants to work personally on their own household food waste (I do, too!) but this conversation is very different. I would not have written any of these comments to rebut bogus claims if you and others had only spoken of your personal goals or efforts. But folks here are making false claims about statistically significant consumer contribution to the overall problem.
posted by MiraK at 1:11 PM on June 7, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 1:11 PM on June 7, 2020 [9 favorites]
Hunger food capitalism deliberate waste, deliberate starvation.
posted by Oyéah at 1:16 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 1:16 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry MiraK, I just think we are in very different places. I hope we all move towards a better place, each in our stride.
posted by mumimor at 1:25 PM on June 7, 2020
posted by mumimor at 1:25 PM on June 7, 2020
Dumpster diving isn't illegal here unless the bins are locked.
posted by Mitheral at 1:42 PM on June 7, 2020
posted by Mitheral at 1:42 PM on June 7, 2020
MiraK, my own personal food waste is what I have the most direct control over. If you "refuse to waste a single ounce of energy even considering how I can make food waste better through my personal choices." that's your business, but maybe don't work so hard on discouraging the rest of us from caring, and trying to do things to help in the best ways that we are able.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:33 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:33 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
Sorry, I'd intended to be clear that the 125kg per year number was the consumer waste. That is 40% of total waste, and excludes non-edible parts like bones and skins.
posted by ambrosen at 3:09 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by ambrosen at 3:09 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
WalkerWestrige, the reason I'm discouraging people from caring about this is because I see this rah-rah- consumer-personal-choice line of propaganda as being similar to Kony 2012.
There were some folks in 2012 who cared a lot about Ugandan politics and who did direct work for Ugandan causes beyond the hashtag. They were great! But 99% of people who hashtagged Kony 2012 were furthering white supremacist propaganda, engaged in performative wokeness, and distracting themselves from issues facing their local people of color in their communities. In addition to being ... spectacularly wrong/ignorant about the facts about Kony.
There are folks who are interested in reducing personal food waste and they're great! But 99% of people who blame consumer's personal choices for food waste overall are furthering the corporate kleptocratic agenda, engaged in performative climate-wokeness, and distracting themselves from ways in which they can actually and effectively end food waste. In addition to being spectacularly wrong about the facts about food waste, as my comments here have demonstrated.
I'm not trying to be a Grinch about your personal efforts to reduce waste in your home. I personally am extremely frugal myself, hate waste, have spent this afternoon tearing the used pages out of my kids' school notebooks so that they can reuse them next year. Can you please try to see the difference between
- discouraging folks from personal efforts to reduce their food waste, and
- discouraging folks from spreading propaganda that personal efforts are a meaningful way to address the issue of societal food waste?
posted by MiraK at 3:15 PM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
There were some folks in 2012 who cared a lot about Ugandan politics and who did direct work for Ugandan causes beyond the hashtag. They were great! But 99% of people who hashtagged Kony 2012 were furthering white supremacist propaganda, engaged in performative wokeness, and distracting themselves from issues facing their local people of color in their communities. In addition to being ... spectacularly wrong/ignorant about the facts about Kony.
There are folks who are interested in reducing personal food waste and they're great! But 99% of people who blame consumer's personal choices for food waste overall are furthering the corporate kleptocratic agenda, engaged in performative climate-wokeness, and distracting themselves from ways in which they can actually and effectively end food waste. In addition to being spectacularly wrong about the facts about food waste, as my comments here have demonstrated.
I'm not trying to be a Grinch about your personal efforts to reduce waste in your home. I personally am extremely frugal myself, hate waste, have spent this afternoon tearing the used pages out of my kids' school notebooks so that they can reuse them next year. Can you please try to see the difference between
- discouraging folks from personal efforts to reduce their food waste, and
- discouraging folks from spreading propaganda that personal efforts are a meaningful way to address the issue of societal food waste?
posted by MiraK at 3:15 PM on June 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
All of that "ugly" produce is generally used and not thrown away (twitter post by @SarahTaber_bww). I have the same reaction as MiraK to these pleas for consumers to solve these issues when the real problem is industry.
posted by soelo at 4:19 PM on June 7, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by soelo at 4:19 PM on June 7, 2020 [7 favorites]
The council I live in has food waste collection and I have to take the bin out for that tomorrow morning (I dare not take it now lest the foxes get into it). Being vegetarian and having a small fridge, I wonder how badly my household scores on this since all our scraps end up as industrial compost.
I'm always concerned by the weird comparisons like "If food waste were a country, it would be the third-largest in greenhouse gas emissions behind The US and China." Is that behind the US and China's current total, or their totals if you excluded food waste? And how much of this waste is coming from each country?
And it ends with a photograph of tomatoes and green beans apparently rotting in an open field, post-harvest. Why were they not simply ploughed back into the soil? That's what farms in the UK do when silly arbitrary rules forbid the sale of their cauliflowers because they're asymmetrical or something. It is not good economically, and it's a waste of energy on a large scale, but it's probably a wee bit better for building up healthy soil than the usual nonsense.
Also, I thought a lot of "waste" fruit and veg ended up feeding livestock.
I feel like this article opened way more questions than it answered, for me.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 5:08 PM on June 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm always concerned by the weird comparisons like "If food waste were a country, it would be the third-largest in greenhouse gas emissions behind The US and China." Is that behind the US and China's current total, or their totals if you excluded food waste? And how much of this waste is coming from each country?
And it ends with a photograph of tomatoes and green beans apparently rotting in an open field, post-harvest. Why were they not simply ploughed back into the soil? That's what farms in the UK do when silly arbitrary rules forbid the sale of their cauliflowers because they're asymmetrical or something. It is not good economically, and it's a waste of energy on a large scale, but it's probably a wee bit better for building up healthy soil than the usual nonsense.
Also, I thought a lot of "waste" fruit and veg ended up feeding livestock.
I feel like this article opened way more questions than it answered, for me.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 5:08 PM on June 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
There's a rueful wince when overripe/fishy/stinky/unspeakablyvile organic matter is consigned to the compost, if we know elder relatives who've been through war ("Oma would've found a way to eat this..."). We try to pay close attention to our household food process, and we still waste more than we'd like to. Just don't get me started on way back of cupboard oddities, various vintage jars (?) in the back of the fridge, and some odd things taking up space in the bottom of the freezer.
In a better world, community composting options would be more widely available. I'm priviledged to have access to backyard composting.
posted by ovvl at 6:00 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
In a better world, community composting options would be more widely available. I'm priviledged to have access to backyard composting.
posted by ovvl at 6:00 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
Mirak, I do acknowledge the validity of what you're saying to a point, but I don't feel like you have really satisfactorily refuted the evidence that people have presented showing that consumer waste is a big enough contributing factor that we can do some real good by reducing it on a household level. Also anecdotaly, I have seen with my own eyes the amazing difference that compost makes in the soil and how it sparks environmental change and healing in a space whether the space be large or small. I don't mean to sound combative or disrespectful, it sounds like we share a concern about food waste, we just see the situation differently.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 9:08 PM on June 7, 2020
posted by WalkerWestridge at 9:08 PM on June 7, 2020
> > 125kg per year number was the consumer waste. That is 40% of total waste, and excludes non-edible parts like bones and skins.
Ambrosen, where are you getting this from? I read that report all the way through and nowhere does it mention that their definition of household food waste excludes inedible food waste such as peels, eggshells, and bones.
I even checked the source this report mentions, FAO, and it specifically excludes all data about household food waste in its loss calculations. It's only looking at the supply chain. (Look under Definitions & Standards ---> Elements ---> Losses on the page linked. What a great website!) Furthermore, the exact wording used by this source to exclude household waste suggests that inedible food waste (peels and shells and bones) are routinely included in total household food waste numbers unless otherwise specified.
Lastly, the report itself notes this as a weakness in their data.
-------------
To summarize:
(1) The report you linked has no language that defines food waste as edible food waste only.
(2) The source for the report has NO data on household food waste, and this lack is noted in the text of the report as a major weakness of the report.
(3) The separate report which I found earlier is sourced differently but has the same estimate for food waste... And it explicitly includes inedible food waste which is 2/3rds of all household food waste. This means American households waste less than 4% of the total food they consume, a fantastically low rate of waste.
From all this, I feel quite confident suggesting that household food waste is a non-existent, made-up, faux problem on every level other than personal goals. Let's please stop talking about it in the context of global good waste until or unless we find data that shows it is a significant contributor to global food waste.
>> I don't feel like you have really satisfactorily refuted the evidence that people have presented showing that consumer waste is a big enough contributing factor that we can do some real good by reducing it on a household level
What evidence?
posted by MiraK at 9:37 PM on June 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
Ambrosen, where are you getting this from? I read that report all the way through and nowhere does it mention that their definition of household food waste excludes inedible food waste such as peels, eggshells, and bones.
I even checked the source this report mentions, FAO, and it specifically excludes all data about household food waste in its loss calculations. It's only looking at the supply chain. (Look under Definitions & Standards ---> Elements ---> Losses on the page linked. What a great website!) Furthermore, the exact wording used by this source to exclude household waste suggests that inedible food waste (peels and shells and bones) are routinely included in total household food waste numbers unless otherwise specified.
Lastly, the report itself notes this as a weakness in their data.
Due to lack of sufficient data, many assumptions on food waste levels at foremost the distribution and consumption levels had to be made. Therefore, the results in this study must be interpreted with great caution.And yes, thank you for pointing out that 125kg (275 lb)/person/year is the amount of household waste in that report, I misread your comment. That is astoundingly close to the 238 lbs/person/year figure in the report I found, considering that they're sourced differently. I love when numbers from different sources match up so well!! However my report makes it explicit that inedible food waste accounts for 2/3rds of all household food waste.
-------------
To summarize:
(1) The report you linked has no language that defines food waste as edible food waste only.
(2) The source for the report has NO data on household food waste, and this lack is noted in the text of the report as a major weakness of the report.
(3) The separate report which I found earlier is sourced differently but has the same estimate for food waste... And it explicitly includes inedible food waste which is 2/3rds of all household food waste. This means American households waste less than 4% of the total food they consume, a fantastically low rate of waste.
From all this, I feel quite confident suggesting that household food waste is a non-existent, made-up, faux problem on every level other than personal goals. Let's please stop talking about it in the context of global good waste until or unless we find data that shows it is a significant contributor to global food waste.
>> I don't feel like you have really satisfactorily refuted the evidence that people have presented showing that consumer waste is a big enough contributing factor that we can do some real good by reducing it on a household level
What evidence?
posted by MiraK at 9:37 PM on June 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
Soldier Fly Larvae [thetyee] culture and processing for protein and omega-ratio-balanced lipid-rich farmed salmon, for pet+ food.
posted by porpoise at 10:20 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by porpoise at 10:20 PM on June 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm always concerned by the weird comparisons like "If food waste were a country, it would be the third-largest in greenhouse gas emissions behind The US and China." Is that behind the US and China's current total, or their totals if you excluded food waste?
The caption for the graph notes, "To avoid double counting, the food loss and waste emissions figure should not be added to the country figures," which seems to indicate that the country totals include food waste. The emissions due to food waste are also estimated comprehensively, including emissions from fossil fuels burned for machinery to plant and harvest, emissions from transportation from the farm to the table, etc. The report the graph comes from notes that as a result, the emissions assigned to food waste increase the further along in the chain of distribution it gets before being wasted, because more transportation has occurred. Waste at the end consumer has the highest per-kilogram emissions footprint.
And it ends with a photograph of tomatoes and green beans apparently rotting in an open field, post-harvest. Why were they not simply ploughed back into the soil?
I don't know, and perhaps they were recycled in that way eventually, but regardless the emissions caused by the agricultural practices required to bring that produce to maturity already occurred. I didn't catch a number from a quick skim of the report, but the emissions footprint of the actual biomass decaying should be relatively small. CO2 emitted by decaying biomass is basically carbon-neutral, since that carbon was captured by photosynthesis just a few years ago; the only increased emissions footprint there should be due to conversion of some of the carbon into the more potent greenhouse gas methane.
posted by biogeo at 11:10 PM on June 7, 2020
An additional factor that I think is worth considering is that we really, really should want to have a certain amount of elasticity in our systems of food production, both globally and locally, because while overproduction of food is costly in various ways, underproduction of food means famine occurs instantly. I believe that right now we're pretty far past the mark of what an optimal amount of overproduction might be, but a system with absolutely no food waste whatsoever shouldn't be our goal. The supply chain issues we've had this year with medical equipment and many basic consumer goods illustrate very clearly what happens when you try to optimize a system for cost efficiency under one set of conditions, and then those conditions suddenly change. As bad as it is having to ration masks and hand sanitizer and ventillators, for those of us in industrialized nations who have no experience with or recent cultural memory of a true famine, imagine how much worse it would be if that was food, not hard to buy because people are panic-buying and hoarding but because it doesn't exist. An agricultural system that is tuned to produce a comfortable margin more food than is actually going to be consumed is insurance against famine caused by unforeseen circumstances.
Of course, ideally we don't want that excess margin of food just going to waste, so finding some sort of more elective use for it is good. This is why I've never been able to muster as much outrage as other environmentalists about the rise of corn ethanol as a fuel additive: I can't help but think that if there were some major disaster in our food production (which there will be, eventually), all that corn represents a comfortable buffer that could be redirected to supermarkets. (Don't get me wrong, I'd rather most of that land be turned back over to native grasses for biofuel production, just as flabdablet said above, or just plain left fallow, because of the multitude of environmental benefits that offers, some of which will actually also help prevent sudden shocks to our agricultural system, e.g., helping restore insect populations and biodiversity. But a certain amount of food crops being turned over to biofuels is a good way to keep some elasticity in our food production for when those shocks occur.)
Now, as to why we have food waste while simultaneously there are people in this world going hungry, that is a whole different question, one that the industrialized world needs to answer for.
posted by biogeo at 11:39 PM on June 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
Of course, ideally we don't want that excess margin of food just going to waste, so finding some sort of more elective use for it is good. This is why I've never been able to muster as much outrage as other environmentalists about the rise of corn ethanol as a fuel additive: I can't help but think that if there were some major disaster in our food production (which there will be, eventually), all that corn represents a comfortable buffer that could be redirected to supermarkets. (Don't get me wrong, I'd rather most of that land be turned back over to native grasses for biofuel production, just as flabdablet said above, or just plain left fallow, because of the multitude of environmental benefits that offers, some of which will actually also help prevent sudden shocks to our agricultural system, e.g., helping restore insect populations and biodiversity. But a certain amount of food crops being turned over to biofuels is a good way to keep some elasticity in our food production for when those shocks occur.)
Now, as to why we have food waste while simultaneously there are people in this world going hungry, that is a whole different question, one that the industrialized world needs to answer for.
posted by biogeo at 11:39 PM on June 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
One thing that is really interesting here is our different perception of society and government.
I live in a country where a large part of the food (maybe 25% at the consumer level, close to 50 % at the producer level) is distributed through member-owned cooperative organisations. There is no reason for me to believe they are on some sneaky capitalist mission, because they are not capitalist in that sense. I even get a small dividend if my local store that I co-own turns a profit. It is directed by a board elected among local members. If that store encourages me to waste less, I trust that they know what they are talking about.
And I also have all the reason in the world to trust my local left-wing coalition government when they tell me the gas they produce from my organic waste runs the busses that pass through my street. Why shouldn't I trust them? And if we, as a community, produce enough waste to run busses, I believe that is a lot of waste.
I totally understand it when people in other countries see things differently, but that doesn't mean I am wrong about what happens here, or that an article about the efforts people make here is somehow phony.
All of that "ugly" produce is generally used and not thrown away (twitter post by @SarahTaber_bww).
I have worked as a greengrocer. Right now, my son-in-law works as a greengrocer. There is a lot of waste, and a lot of "ugly" fruit gets thrown away or donated at the wholesalers and retail levels of distribution, and it happens at the stores where poor people buy produce as well as at middle class farmers markets (sheesh, I get a bit agitated when someone claims to know something they don't)*. I'm aware that it doesn't happen as much at the producers level, though just how much depends on your distribution network. And there's an irony in the fact that the most industrialized food probably has the least waste throughout the production and distribution chains. That does not make me want to eat a Knorr soup, but there you go. At the other end of the scale, subsistence farming also has close to zero waste.
And something else: if you go to the WeFood store, you will find some "ugly" fresh produce, donated by wholesalers, but you will also find a lot of processed food, like cans of sauce, frozen spring rolls etc. that for some reason haven't made it to the supermarket shelves in time. Maybe someone has miscalculated the demand, or their usual customer went broke. That food would have gone to the dump before, in its package, so with no option of composting.
*For example: if you have a grocery store in a poorer neighborhood, you may buy a box of second or even third class cucumbers which are fine, except for their strange shapes, and then you can find a lower price point. But your customers will still be picky, and try to find the most practically shaped cucumbers in the box, and at the end of the day, you'll be left with maybe 20% of that box going to waste. Maybe if you are a resourceful family, you will take them home, and your wife will transform those twisted cucumbers into something else, like a tzaziki, that you can sell. But that only works because you don't pay yourself or the wife a living wage.
posted by mumimor at 11:42 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
I live in a country where a large part of the food (maybe 25% at the consumer level, close to 50 % at the producer level) is distributed through member-owned cooperative organisations. There is no reason for me to believe they are on some sneaky capitalist mission, because they are not capitalist in that sense. I even get a small dividend if my local store that I co-own turns a profit. It is directed by a board elected among local members. If that store encourages me to waste less, I trust that they know what they are talking about.
And I also have all the reason in the world to trust my local left-wing coalition government when they tell me the gas they produce from my organic waste runs the busses that pass through my street. Why shouldn't I trust them? And if we, as a community, produce enough waste to run busses, I believe that is a lot of waste.
I totally understand it when people in other countries see things differently, but that doesn't mean I am wrong about what happens here, or that an article about the efforts people make here is somehow phony.
All of that "ugly" produce is generally used and not thrown away (twitter post by @SarahTaber_bww).
I have worked as a greengrocer. Right now, my son-in-law works as a greengrocer. There is a lot of waste, and a lot of "ugly" fruit gets thrown away or donated at the wholesalers and retail levels of distribution, and it happens at the stores where poor people buy produce as well as at middle class farmers markets (sheesh, I get a bit agitated when someone claims to know something they don't)*. I'm aware that it doesn't happen as much at the producers level, though just how much depends on your distribution network. And there's an irony in the fact that the most industrialized food probably has the least waste throughout the production and distribution chains. That does not make me want to eat a Knorr soup, but there you go. At the other end of the scale, subsistence farming also has close to zero waste.
And something else: if you go to the WeFood store, you will find some "ugly" fresh produce, donated by wholesalers, but you will also find a lot of processed food, like cans of sauce, frozen spring rolls etc. that for some reason haven't made it to the supermarket shelves in time. Maybe someone has miscalculated the demand, or their usual customer went broke. That food would have gone to the dump before, in its package, so with no option of composting.
*For example: if you have a grocery store in a poorer neighborhood, you may buy a box of second or even third class cucumbers which are fine, except for their strange shapes, and then you can find a lower price point. But your customers will still be picky, and try to find the most practically shaped cucumbers in the box, and at the end of the day, you'll be left with maybe 20% of that box going to waste. Maybe if you are a resourceful family, you will take them home, and your wife will transform those twisted cucumbers into something else, like a tzaziki, that you can sell. But that only works because you don't pay yourself or the wife a living wage.
posted by mumimor at 11:42 PM on June 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
This is why I've never been able to muster as much outrage as other environmentalists about the rise of corn ethanol as a fuel additive: I can't help but think that if there were some major disaster in our food production (which there will be, eventually), all that corn represents a comfortable buffer that could be redirected to supermarkets.
Point taken, though it would be stronger for corn in particular if that kind of corn was not so completely amenable to being simply stockpiled.
If there's some major disaster that affects corn production, it's presumably going to affect those farms doing production for ethanol as well; so the idea that below-unity EROEI production-for-ethanol is justifiable as some kind of buffer against disaster strikes me as kind of dubious.
posted by flabdablet at 1:37 AM on June 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
Point taken, though it would be stronger for corn in particular if that kind of corn was not so completely amenable to being simply stockpiled.
If there's some major disaster that affects corn production, it's presumably going to affect those farms doing production for ethanol as well; so the idea that below-unity EROEI production-for-ethanol is justifiable as some kind of buffer against disaster strikes me as kind of dubious.
posted by flabdablet at 1:37 AM on June 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
If that store encourages me to waste less, I trust that they know what they are talking about.
Does that store tell you that consumers wasting less in their households will address the global problem of food waste in any significant way? Or are you making the assumption that this must be why they encourage you to waste less...?
I mean, obviously wasting less is an instrinsic good, and it will remain an intrinsic good even if an evil capitalist with bad intentions is the one who tells me to waste less. But claiming that household waste significantly contributes to the problem of global food waste is factually false + capitalist propaganda and will remain factually false + (inadvertent) capitalist propaganda even if it's your angelic co-op claiming it. Intent doesn't change real consequences.
posted by MiraK at 7:33 AM on June 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
Does that store tell you that consumers wasting less in their households will address the global problem of food waste in any significant way? Or are you making the assumption that this must be why they encourage you to waste less...?
I mean, obviously wasting less is an instrinsic good, and it will remain an intrinsic good even if an evil capitalist with bad intentions is the one who tells me to waste less. But claiming that household waste significantly contributes to the problem of global food waste is factually false + capitalist propaganda and will remain factually false + (inadvertent) capitalist propaganda even if it's your angelic co-op claiming it. Intent doesn't change real consequences.
posted by MiraK at 7:33 AM on June 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
MiraK, I realize more and more that I simply do not understand your argument. I'm telling you that I can see with my own eyes every five minutes everyday a bus running on the gas from our city's household waste instead of diesel, and you are telling me that what I am seeing is capitalist propaganda? I cannot comprehend. I think we must somehow be talking past each other, because I mostly agree with your comments here on the blue.
My local store is asking me to buy less to waste less. How can that be capitalist propaganda?
I tried to suggest that maybe just living in a society based on community values (and huge taxes on the rich) is a privileged situation. Maybe I was too oblique about that? I've never been as broke as I am now, but I don't have to fear homelessness or food insecurity. I get that things are different in other places, and I worry about it.
Here, confronting food waste has helped eliminate or diminish some big issues we were dealing with, and not only about methane gasses. Because we have had a racist nationalist national government for almost 20 years, both some legal and all illegal immigrants have struggled to feed themselves. This has happily changed now, but before the last election, the organisations managing waste food have been a game changer, both in distributing food and in raising awareness.
Obviously it makes a difference to sort the waste in a big, dense city. I also have to sort the waste at our family farm. I like it in winter because then I don't have to go all the way out to the compost pile in the dark. But otherwise it makes no sense for me as a person. I can understand a lot of my politically conservative neighbors out there were joking about political overreach when we got the little green bins. But now they feel like me: it's a winter convenience and not a big deal. It's symbolic, but it is a symbol most people can agree with. We struggle with both floodings and draught, and recently we even had a tiny dust storm, which killed everything on its way. Climate change is not a theory, it's a fact. The little green bin is a symbol of the change that needs to happen.
posted by mumimor at 9:26 AM on June 8, 2020
My local store is asking me to buy less to waste less. How can that be capitalist propaganda?
I tried to suggest that maybe just living in a society based on community values (and huge taxes on the rich) is a privileged situation. Maybe I was too oblique about that? I've never been as broke as I am now, but I don't have to fear homelessness or food insecurity. I get that things are different in other places, and I worry about it.
Here, confronting food waste has helped eliminate or diminish some big issues we were dealing with, and not only about methane gasses. Because we have had a racist nationalist national government for almost 20 years, both some legal and all illegal immigrants have struggled to feed themselves. This has happily changed now, but before the last election, the organisations managing waste food have been a game changer, both in distributing food and in raising awareness.
Obviously it makes a difference to sort the waste in a big, dense city. I also have to sort the waste at our family farm. I like it in winter because then I don't have to go all the way out to the compost pile in the dark. But otherwise it makes no sense for me as a person. I can understand a lot of my politically conservative neighbors out there were joking about political overreach when we got the little green bins. But now they feel like me: it's a winter convenience and not a big deal. It's symbolic, but it is a symbol most people can agree with. We struggle with both floodings and draught, and recently we even had a tiny dust storm, which killed everything on its way. Climate change is not a theory, it's a fact. The little green bin is a symbol of the change that needs to happen.
posted by mumimor at 9:26 AM on June 8, 2020
I think we must somehow be talking past each other
Two MeFites divided by a common language
posted by flabdablet at 9:33 AM on June 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
Two MeFites divided by a common language
posted by flabdablet at 9:33 AM on June 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
I know, and I'm sorry, this is frustrating, and I'm doing my best - as I know you are too. Mutual understanding feels so tantalizingly close!
I definitely agree that minimizing personal waste is an intrinsic good and a great symbol.
Where we seem to be missing each other is this: you have repeatedly said and claimed that minimizing personal waste is not only a symbol but also an effective way to solve global food waste. All the data we have says it is not. Personal food waste is, on the global level, about as significant as a fart in a tornado
When we spread the lie that painting a banner saying "Change!" is literally the exact same thing as doing the actual work of change, many people who would otherwise do real work will now paint a banner and go home, all in good faith. Less real change = furthering corporate interests.
You said before that we can walk and chew gum at the same time, but no, we cannot walk and chew gum at the same time if you're lying to people that walking is the exact same thing as chewing gum. People who believe the lie will do only one or the other because who the fuck has time to do the same thing twice?
posted by MiraK at 10:25 AM on June 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
I definitely agree that minimizing personal waste is an intrinsic good and a great symbol.
Where we seem to be missing each other is this: you have repeatedly said and claimed that minimizing personal waste is not only a symbol but also an effective way to solve global food waste. All the data we have says it is not. Personal food waste is, on the global level, about as significant as a fart in a tornado
When we spread the lie that painting a banner saying "Change!" is literally the exact same thing as doing the actual work of change, many people who would otherwise do real work will now paint a banner and go home, all in good faith. Less real change = furthering corporate interests.
You said before that we can walk and chew gum at the same time, but no, we cannot walk and chew gum at the same time if you're lying to people that walking is the exact same thing as chewing gum. People who believe the lie will do only one or the other because who the fuck has time to do the same thing twice?
posted by MiraK at 10:25 AM on June 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Few comments removed - general discussion is fine, asking people to tell you what to do about a problem, less fine.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:53 PM on June 8, 2020
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:53 PM on June 8, 2020
However, my entire state has exactly one "Salvage Grocery Store", as they're known
Well, why would anyone call their grocery store a "salvage grocery store"? That would be bizarre.
What I can tell you is that I shop at stores like Grocery Outlet (many almost-expired and maybe expired packaged foods, as well as food that didn't sell for other reasons). I also shop at local greengrocers where you can pick through a hundred apples, and every one will reliably have one noticeable defect. They typically cost half of what Safeway charges (though Safeway will have sales). Now, they don't call themselves "salvage grocery", just things like "14th St Market" or "John's Corner Grocery" or in one case "4th & Main Farmer's Market" which was always a bit funny to me because it was not at all a "farmer's market" in the usual sense.
It seems like people just don't pay attention to these places.
posted by alexei at 4:11 PM on June 8, 2020
Well, why would anyone call their grocery store a "salvage grocery store"? That would be bizarre.
What I can tell you is that I shop at stores like Grocery Outlet (many almost-expired and maybe expired packaged foods, as well as food that didn't sell for other reasons). I also shop at local greengrocers where you can pick through a hundred apples, and every one will reliably have one noticeable defect. They typically cost half of what Safeway charges (though Safeway will have sales). Now, they don't call themselves "salvage grocery", just things like "14th St Market" or "John's Corner Grocery" or in one case "4th & Main Farmer's Market" which was always a bit funny to me because it was not at all a "farmer's market" in the usual sense.
It seems like people just don't pay attention to these places.
posted by alexei at 4:11 PM on June 8, 2020
Australia doesn't really have urban carnivore/omnivore scavengers in the same way that other countries, e.g. America, do, so I've had no issues with burying meat scraps and bones in deep enough holes in the backyard. Running a compost bin for everything else is kind of a no-brainer. I'm under no illusion that it's making any kind of measurable impact, but it stops the wheelie bin from stinking so much, and helps the soil and garden.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:19 PM on June 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:19 PM on June 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's been my position for a very long time that if my garbage bin stinks, I'm doing it wrong.
posted by flabdablet at 10:27 PM on June 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 10:27 PM on June 8, 2020 [1 favorite]
All the data we have says it is not. Personal food waste is, on the global level, about as significant as a fart in a tornado
Hmm. I understand that the problem here is not on the global level. Most of the population of the world don't waste food. A very large majority of the global population don't waste food because they can't afford it. A fairly large minority of the global population don't waste food because they live off highly processed food or food cooked by professionals for which the production is close to zero waste. And then there are some specific areas where a lot of people waste a lot of food, so it becomes a local problem.
We waste a lot of food here because we are rich. Heck, in spite of writing all this here, I've wasted a whole broccoli in the very days we've been discussing this because I didn't feel like cooking it and then when I did it had gone bad. It doesn't really matter for me, it goes to compost, and it cost me a tiny fraction of my relatively small income. For one of my friends who is well off, a broccoli would hardly register in their budget while the spectacle of an overstuffed fridge is important to them.
But at our waste processing plants, the organic matter was a problem until the law made us sort our waste, because they are contractually bound to reduce emissions, and the emissions from food waste here are a relatively large part of the nation's total emissions because we have well-insulated houses and energy-efficient transportation and factories and we already sort most of our other waste for recycling.
I'm guessing that across the globe, you can easily point out the areas that have the same or a similar problem to ours. Dense cities with large middle-class to rich populations who can afford to waste food both in their homes and by choosing only first class produce at the stores, and where the relative balance between food waste and other forms of pollution makes food waste a big local issue. London would certainly be such a place (the original article is from the BBC).
This is an interesting problem. Should I stop sorting my waste because they still use coal for energy in Poland? Should Norway keep on drilling for oil because they do it in a way that is better for the environment and society than how they do it in Iran? My personal answers are easy to see from all of the above, but I acknowledge there is a dilemma. And given this perspective, I actually find it very interesting how this can be seen so differently in different parts of the world. I can't think of many people on the left here, who would have similar views to MiraK. But I can see what they mean (finally, I think, maybe).
Here, at a very basic level, it's about putting your money where your mouth is. And there's the whole cooperative dimension of our society across party lines that I mentioned above. But it's also something else. Back in the -90's when we last had a progressive government, a lot of industry and production grew up around the environmental laws that were made. We have huge wind turbine factories. Some of the biggest corporations here are based on energy efficient construction and energy management. In general there is a very high productivity here.
In the same period, some relatively modest government support helped raise organic farming to a scale where they could be competitive with conventional farming on price, and that was another thing that couldn't be turned back.
The racist idiot government that came after had to acknowledge they couldn't turn back the clock, even as they wanted to. So there is an experience here that says strict environmental laws can end up being good for jobs and the economy and thus be robust through political change.
We may not save the world by sorting our organic waste, but we may find out something interesting while we do it.
posted by mumimor at 11:20 PM on June 8, 2020
Hmm. I understand that the problem here is not on the global level. Most of the population of the world don't waste food. A very large majority of the global population don't waste food because they can't afford it. A fairly large minority of the global population don't waste food because they live off highly processed food or food cooked by professionals for which the production is close to zero waste. And then there are some specific areas where a lot of people waste a lot of food, so it becomes a local problem.
We waste a lot of food here because we are rich. Heck, in spite of writing all this here, I've wasted a whole broccoli in the very days we've been discussing this because I didn't feel like cooking it and then when I did it had gone bad. It doesn't really matter for me, it goes to compost, and it cost me a tiny fraction of my relatively small income. For one of my friends who is well off, a broccoli would hardly register in their budget while the spectacle of an overstuffed fridge is important to them.
But at our waste processing plants, the organic matter was a problem until the law made us sort our waste, because they are contractually bound to reduce emissions, and the emissions from food waste here are a relatively large part of the nation's total emissions because we have well-insulated houses and energy-efficient transportation and factories and we already sort most of our other waste for recycling.
I'm guessing that across the globe, you can easily point out the areas that have the same or a similar problem to ours. Dense cities with large middle-class to rich populations who can afford to waste food both in their homes and by choosing only first class produce at the stores, and where the relative balance between food waste and other forms of pollution makes food waste a big local issue. London would certainly be such a place (the original article is from the BBC).
This is an interesting problem. Should I stop sorting my waste because they still use coal for energy in Poland? Should Norway keep on drilling for oil because they do it in a way that is better for the environment and society than how they do it in Iran? My personal answers are easy to see from all of the above, but I acknowledge there is a dilemma. And given this perspective, I actually find it very interesting how this can be seen so differently in different parts of the world. I can't think of many people on the left here, who would have similar views to MiraK. But I can see what they mean (finally, I think, maybe).
Here, at a very basic level, it's about putting your money where your mouth is. And there's the whole cooperative dimension of our society across party lines that I mentioned above. But it's also something else. Back in the -90's when we last had a progressive government, a lot of industry and production grew up around the environmental laws that were made. We have huge wind turbine factories. Some of the biggest corporations here are based on energy efficient construction and energy management. In general there is a very high productivity here.
In the same period, some relatively modest government support helped raise organic farming to a scale where they could be competitive with conventional farming on price, and that was another thing that couldn't be turned back.
The racist idiot government that came after had to acknowledge they couldn't turn back the clock, even as they wanted to. So there is an experience here that says strict environmental laws can end up being good for jobs and the economy and thus be robust through political change.
We may not save the world by sorting our organic waste, but we may find out something interesting while we do it.
posted by mumimor at 11:20 PM on June 8, 2020
Should I stop sorting my waste because they still use coal for energy in Poland? Should Norway keep on drilling for oil because they do it in a way that is better for the environment and society than how they do it in Iran?
What kind of question even is this? No one is saying you should stop doing what you personally can to help the planet. They're saying that pinning this 100% on the consumer is not right. Just like with plastic, I can recycle all I want but it's on the industry to stop forcing me to use it (i.e. all the packaging, using single-use non-recyclable plastics for packaging, etc.). Just like plastic, this is a systemic issue and we need systemic change to fix the problem, as it seems your country is doing.
(As a jokey example, how much food was wasted when Lays created the biscuit & gravy flavored chips? I had no choice in that. Many many people didn't buy it but it still got made. Once its on the shelf its too late. In order to not waste it someone(s) has to sacrifice and eat them all.)
It seems like you're not seeing that (A) reducing your personal food waste is an A+ yay good thing and (B) proposing that this is 100% of the problem and consumers just need to be better and this would all be fixed is an F- nope not good thing.
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:04 AM on June 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
What kind of question even is this? No one is saying you should stop doing what you personally can to help the planet. They're saying that pinning this 100% on the consumer is not right. Just like with plastic, I can recycle all I want but it's on the industry to stop forcing me to use it (i.e. all the packaging, using single-use non-recyclable plastics for packaging, etc.). Just like plastic, this is a systemic issue and we need systemic change to fix the problem, as it seems your country is doing.
(As a jokey example, how much food was wasted when Lays created the biscuit & gravy flavored chips? I had no choice in that. Many many people didn't buy it but it still got made. Once its on the shelf its too late. In order to not waste it someone(s) has to sacrifice and eat them all.)
It seems like you're not seeing that (A) reducing your personal food waste is an A+ yay good thing and (B) proposing that this is 100% of the problem and consumers just need to be better and this would all be fixed is an F- nope not good thing.
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:04 AM on June 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
It seems like you're not seeing that (A) reducing your personal food waste is an A+ yay good thing and (B) proposing that this is 100% of the problem and consumers just need to be better and this would all be fixed is an F- nope not good thing.
What??? How do you get there? My last comment included a long paragraph on how political decisions make a huge difference, even more of a difference than was first expected, and certainly the most important difference. My point is not that my personal actions are the problem or the solution but that my personal actions (and everyone else's) exist in a political space, where they make a difference because they are political statements just like writing words or marching in demonstrations are.
If you claim to be a climate activist but at the same time spend hundreds of hours in planes and in your dirty old car, and you eat processed food from factory farmed animals, your actions say something opposite to your words (this example is from a well-known activist in this country, again, not a Mefite). I can't teach my kids to work for a better planet if I waste food, or drive a SUV, or travel to Thailand twice a year.
posted by mumimor at 1:28 AM on June 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
What??? How do you get there? My last comment included a long paragraph on how political decisions make a huge difference, even more of a difference than was first expected, and certainly the most important difference. My point is not that my personal actions are the problem or the solution but that my personal actions (and everyone else's) exist in a political space, where they make a difference because they are political statements just like writing words or marching in demonstrations are.
If you claim to be a climate activist but at the same time spend hundreds of hours in planes and in your dirty old car, and you eat processed food from factory farmed animals, your actions say something opposite to your words (this example is from a well-known activist in this country, again, not a Mefite). I can't teach my kids to work for a better planet if I waste food, or drive a SUV, or travel to Thailand twice a year.
posted by mumimor at 1:28 AM on June 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
If you claim to be a climate activist but at the same time spend hundreds of hours in planes and in your dirty old car, and you eat processed food from factory farmed animals, your actions say something opposite to your words (this example is from a well-known activist in this country, again, not a Mefite). I can't teach my kids to work for a better planet if I waste food, or drive a SUV, or travel to Thailand twice a year.
Here's the thing is... you can. I'm not saying you should but this is the problem with late stage capitalism: There is no ethical consumption. The marginal difference between a hypothetical zero-waster, non-car-having, non-airtravel-using person and someone who flips all of those switches in the opposite direction (unhungry cannibal, car collector, professional pilot?) is basically just a rounding error if we as a species don't address the actual movers and shakers (w.r.t. corporations). Until the major polluter issues get movement, anything and everything you do on a personal level amounts to an academic issue for future E.T. Indiana Joneses who can suss out that difference in rounding errors. Moreover, the refocusing of the present-day narrative around personal choices actually (inadvertently) makes it easier for corporate bad actors to quicken our collective destruction by distracting from the actual problems. It's pushing eggcup sizing reform on the deck of the Titanic.
posted by axiom at 2:13 AM on June 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
Here's the thing is... you can. I'm not saying you should but this is the problem with late stage capitalism: There is no ethical consumption. The marginal difference between a hypothetical zero-waster, non-car-having, non-airtravel-using person and someone who flips all of those switches in the opposite direction (unhungry cannibal, car collector, professional pilot?) is basically just a rounding error if we as a species don't address the actual movers and shakers (w.r.t. corporations). Until the major polluter issues get movement, anything and everything you do on a personal level amounts to an academic issue for future E.T. Indiana Joneses who can suss out that difference in rounding errors. Moreover, the refocusing of the present-day narrative around personal choices actually (inadvertently) makes it easier for corporate bad actors to quicken our collective destruction by distracting from the actual problems. It's pushing eggcup sizing reform on the deck of the Titanic.
posted by axiom at 2:13 AM on June 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
Once again, 40% of food waste in North America and Oceania is at the consumer level.
posted by ambrosen at 3:01 AM on June 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by ambrosen at 3:01 AM on June 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
And once again, Ambrosen, your numbers are deliberately misleading. By bad data, onsumers waste less food than goldsmiths waste gold - only 4% of consumer consumption is wasted.
Why would you continue to cite this 40% number after being corrected multiple times with sources on this very thread? Don't facts matter?
posted by MiraK at 5:44 AM on June 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
Why would you continue to cite this 40% number after being corrected multiple times with sources on this very thread? Don't facts matter?
posted by MiraK at 5:44 AM on June 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
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