July 29, 2002
10:51 AM   Subscribe

One giant step for Iranian women [my title] Who says Iran does not consider the workplace suitable for women?
posted by Postroad (76 comments total)

This post was deleted for the following reason:



 
The "decency houses" would not be open to any male -- only those with identity cards proving they were bachelors, widows, or married to women incapacitated by physical or mental illness would be admitted.
  1. Male widows?
  2. I see a burgeoning market opportunity--'bachelor' ID cards.
posted by Fabulon7 at 11:01 AM on July 29, 2002


Postroad, really, why don't you just write "fucking Arab assholes" or other slurs? No links, nothing. Just that on the Front Page.
It would be healthier for you, you'd scream your racist trolls much more quickly.
posted by matteo at 11:03 AM on July 29, 2002


matteo, Iranians are not Arabs. They're Persians.
posted by aLienated at 11:07 AM on July 29, 2002


Though I'm not sure Postroad is actually aware of such a nuance himself, so point taken.
posted by aLienated at 11:08 AM on July 29, 2002


If you wil please note where the story comes from you might realize that I am not making racist slurs! As I had once before said: what I find of interest and you do not becomes for you a troll; what we both find of interest is Cool and acceptable. Ps: I have worked with Iranian students in the past and have a few friends who are Iranian.
posted by Postroad at 11:13 AM on July 29, 2002


Actually, many Iranians are aryan.
posted by dagny at 11:14 AM on July 29, 2002


matteo, really, why don't you just write "fucking MeFi trolls" or other slurs? No links, nothing. Just that on the Front Page.
It would be healthier for you, you'd scream your tiring rants much more quickly.
posted by quonsar at 11:20 AM on July 29, 2002


alienated,
I know, in fact they talk Farsi (comes from Persia)
But English is not my first language and luckily I don't know many slurs, that was just a guess (I don't know the slur for Iranians, nor I'd like to), it was an example

Postroad
Suppose somebody says "I have lots of Jewish friends, but you know, those Israelis...".
Don't fuck with us and deny the really unpleasant sarcasm of the FPP's wording
Again: tell the truth, for once, you're just rationalizing your racism. You fucking hate this people and hope Israel nukes them all, like a huge, admit it. You'll feel better, man

quonsar
You're so funny I can't even find an answer, bravo
posted by matteo at 11:22 AM on July 29, 2002


come to think of it, there probably are (though they are greatly outnumbered) some Iranian arabs, so it's probably not fair to make a general statement like that. How about we say that Persian culture generally refers to what is now Iran. huh, how about we say that. I don't think you were being racist Postroad. anybody want to fling a cow? oh yeah prostitutes. hmmmm....
posted by aLienated at 11:22 AM on July 29, 2002


"decency houses"
"patriot act"
orwell spins in grave.

You're so funny I can't even find an answer, bravo
oh, come on now, matteo! you can do better!
how about 'i am rubber you are glue, what bounces off me, sticks to you!'
posted by quonsar at 11:26 AM on July 29, 2002


I dunno about you guys, but I fucking hate this people and hope Israel nukes them all.
posted by xmutex at 11:37 AM on July 29, 2002


now see, matteo, if you had only been patient you'de have had xmutex to slam too!
posted by quonsar at 11:38 AM on July 29, 2002


Actually, many Iranians are aryan.

Hmmmm.... The term "aryan" has fallen, for the most part, out of technical usage. The Nazis managed to claim it for themselves. The preferred terms, I believe, are "proto-Indo-European" to describe the original people and "Indo-European" to describe the language family and speakers of languages that are members of that family. Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "many Iranians are aryan". "Aryan" and "Iran" come from the same root, for what it's worth, and Persian (or Farsi, if you prefer) is an Indo-European language. You seem, however, to be making a distinction between "aryan" and "Persian" (in aLienated's comment). The two are not mutually exclusive. There is a vast array of ethnicities and nationalities under the umbrella of the Indo-European language family, and Iranians are certainly not proto-Indo-Europeans, since this term refers to a historic (pre-historic, actually) people.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:39 AM on July 29, 2002


I don't think you were being racist Postroad.

For example he posted this jewel, how could he be suspected of racism? (that's just July 2002, wanna check other, earlier posts?)
Of course I don't mind it one bit when Postroad and Paris give us their "Cheerleaders for Likud" show, that's an opinion everybody has to respect. But ugly racism against the same group (i.e. Islamic people and nations) should be disturbing, especially when it comes disguised as irony

quonsar
Again, you're too smart for me, I can't respond
posted by matteo at 11:42 AM on July 29, 2002


Even when I disagree with him, I gotta admit that quonsar makes me laugh.
posted by adampsyche at 11:43 AM on July 29, 2002


The article is interesting in that it points out there are two governments in Iran. The moderate elected government and the conservative religious establishment who have their own police and army and can overrule the elected government. The Mullahs are not acting out of evil intentions, rather, they do what they think is best for their country. Whether their power is disproportionate to their mandate and the will of the people depends on who you ask.
posted by Mack Twain at 11:45 AM on July 29, 2002


Taking the article for what it's worth, the decency houses don't seem like a such a terrible idea. I mean, okay, they kind of encourage prostitution, but isn't it comparable to places in America giving out clean needles or condoms, or Ecstasy test kits?

To me, it seems like a possibility of better protection and support for prostitutes, while more or less trying to keep it as.... decent as feasible.

I say this with no real knowledge of the religion and culture in Iran, though..

And on preview, mr_roboto, I think dagny being humorous/sarcastic about the aryan thing (and not nitpickingly accurate), because on first glance most people do not assosiate Iranians with the word aryan.
posted by puffin at 11:46 AM on July 29, 2002


I don't think there was anything racist with this FPP. If you have an issue with something Postroad said in another thread, matteo, why not bitch about it there?
posted by stifford at 11:48 AM on July 29, 2002


Can someone clear up for me how exactly Postroad's post has been perceived as racist? The title is a little snarky, but the linked article itself is from what appears to be a very balanced journalistic source. From a source targeted to Arab readers, in fact.

On the subject of the actual article, the prospect of government-overseen prostitution strikes me as extraordinarily progressive; nothing at all that I would expect from a Theocracy. I'd love to see more legalization and government regulation of prostitution in the West. It seems like it would be the best solution for everyone involved, assuming intelligent and carefully applied regulations.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:48 AM on July 29, 2002


Ditto what mr_roboto says about progression. Progression is good. Especially in a place like Iran.

I think how Postroad phrases his FPPs is overanalyzed by some because of his previous controversial posts. And this post was a bit provocative, but not particularly rascist in my opinion.
posted by puffin at 11:55 AM on July 29, 2002


The racism bit is that, although women do not have full rights in Iran, they are allowed to work and serve in government-- whereas Postroad seems to be implying that the only work women in Iran are allowed to do is in brothels. Someone sensitive to the issue could say that Postroad is against Islam and the Middle East in general, and is using this article to perpetuate his idea that Iranians hate women and see them only as whores. A more balanced and nuanced poster could have included information about the percentage of women in parliment (Iran has 4%, America 14%, Sweden 42%), along with critical analysis of Iranian women's place in the workplace (generally not great, but getting better).

Does Postroad have an agenda? Yes. Is he racist? I don't know, I don't think so, but I don't think you can say so from this post's content. However it's obvious given the discussion that has transpired that covering a very interesting and strange story in a way that suggests that Iranian women under their government will only succeed as whores is probably not the best way to go about things.
posted by cell divide at 12:00 PM on July 29, 2002


The thing is, you can't take the current post out of the context which has been linked to above.
posted by adampsyche at 12:02 PM on July 29, 2002


Is there something wrong with being against Islam, cell divide?
posted by insomnyuk at 12:04 PM on July 29, 2002


insomny,
is there something wrong with being against Jews, or Blacks, or gays?
posted by matteo at 12:11 PM on July 29, 2002


I guess there is, but apparently in this thread "racism = bad thing" is a minority view
posted by matteo at 12:13 PM on July 29, 2002


matte: Being against Islam (a religious philosophy) and/or the people who try to adhere to it is fundamentally different than being against people of a certain skin color; a feature they didn't themselves choose.

I'm against Islam and Islamists, but I have non-Islamist friends who are Arab. I'm against the Jewish religion as well, but I have secular friends who would be described as "ethnically Jewish". Etc...
posted by dagny at 12:27 PM on July 29, 2002


Well... dagny said it better than I could. I am opposed to Islam, the religion. Separate race from the equation, because like any other religion, Islam is practiced by just about every race on the planet.
posted by insomnyuk at 12:38 PM on July 29, 2002


Dagny: I think you mean "Muslims", not "Islamists".
posted by signal at 12:42 PM on July 29, 2002


If you think people choose their religion, you are being naive. Most people on this planet are indoctrinated from birth into the religion of their parents or their state. Many states don't approve of religious freedom. Secular society is actually fairly rare on this planet. It is wrong to assume that most people read through the texts of many religions and then choose one.
posted by Fabulon7 at 12:46 PM on July 29, 2002


What the fuck is wrong with Islam? Sure, a few kooks make it look pretty bad, but can't that be said of every religion? I have many friends who are Muslim, and I can't fathom why anyone would be against their religion. Certain implementations, sure, but to be against a whole religion?
posted by adampsyche at 12:55 PM on July 29, 2002


I am not sure how people pick and choose to be "for" or "against" any major religion, since they all have pretty much identical values, and have been pretty much equally responsible (adjusted for # of adherants, of course) for both good and bad things on this planet. Care to elaborate, Dagny and Insomnyuck?
posted by cell divide at 12:56 PM on July 29, 2002


I am opposed to Islam, the religion
I'm against Islam and Islamists
I'm against the Jewish religion as well,



Why? I mean, if some want to worship a different God, why can't they? Is it your fucking business? I don't think so.

It's not that all those who worship Allah want to crash jets into your fucking house, you know?

dagny, insomny, I hope you're either trolling or pulling a prank I don't understand, like a late April Fools. This thread looks like a alt.fuck.islam Usenet nightmare
posted by matteo at 12:57 PM on July 29, 2002


The FPP is definitely racist. Women have rights in Iran. Pantload's implication otherwise is his usual hoo-hah. I really wish Matt would ban him.
posted by donkeyschlong at 12:59 PM on July 29, 2002


Matteo, before you cry racism you should be sure that you're not one yourself.

"This thread looks like a alt.fuck.islam Usenet nightmare".

Just like that post I linked to, you try to derail every thread you post to. Not everyone agrees with you, deal with it. You're not going to change anyone's mind. Don't like the posts, then move on.
posted by mkelley at 1:03 PM on July 29, 2002


I think Dagny is just toeing the party line.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:03 PM on July 29, 2002


I have issues with the pillars of Islam and the Qu'ran itself. The Qu'ran claims that it is true. I disagree. Also, I think Islam is a false religion, as I think there is no such being as the Allah written about in the Qu'ran. Sure, people should be free to practice it Islam. Do I hate Muslims? No.

Why? I mean, if some want to worship a different God, why can't they? Is it your fucking business? I don't think so.

It's not that all those who worship Allah want to crash jets into your fucking house, you know?


Fuck fuck fuck fuck FUCK. Blah blah blah.... and so forth.
posted by insomnyuk at 1:07 PM on July 29, 2002


Mkelley, that was a really poor citation.

Yes, Fuck Matteo for actually being right! Screw him!
posted by donkeyschlong at 1:08 PM on July 29, 2002


This thread is definitely Metafilter's septic tank du jour...
posted by websavvy at 1:09 PM on July 29, 2002


mkelley
Why racist? I was pointing to a fault in a user's argument (following his logic, the overweight must have bad parents, where's the racism? Be careful with your slander, be very careful

insomnyuk
thanks, now it's all clear
You may want to check out this more often, you'll like it
posted by matteo at 1:10 PM on July 29, 2002


I think you're all ignoring something very, very important here. And that is: "kerbcrawlers" is a very funny word. I'm using this word a lot from now on.
posted by ColdChef at 1:11 PM on July 29, 2002


Why? I mean, if some want to worship a different God, why can't they? Is it your fucking business? I don't think so.

They CAN. I never said they couldn't. I reserve the right, however, to say and believe that I think their beliefs are bullshit. I've heard people trash my beliefs for years, I should have the same privilege.

It's not that all those who worship Allah want to crash jets into your fucking house, you know?

Yes I'm a xenophobe who think 1 billion people are out to get me because they worship allah. That seems rational enough? (yes I'm being sarcastic)

What? How should I make this more clear. Here's an attempt.

RELIGION DOES NOT EQUAL RACE
posted by insomnyuk at 1:12 PM on July 29, 2002


PANTLOAD! hahaha, that's awesome. I'm gonna use that if you don't mind. and the ayn rand institute, how very.... toilet seat. this thread is verging on brilliant. we just need a showstopper.
posted by aLienated at 1:13 PM on July 29, 2002


aLienated: and the ayn rand institute, how very.... toilet seat.

Given past comments, I was under the impression that Dagny T. was a hardcore/unapologetic objectivist (Her nick comes from Atlas Shrugged after all). If not, my bad.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:20 PM on July 29, 2002


I am only against religions that do not include hardcore pornography involving clowns in their religious teachings.
posted by bargle at 1:21 PM on July 29, 2002


I am not sure how people pick and choose to be "for" or "against" any major religion, since they all have pretty much identical values

Cell divide is absolutely right. You have to look really hard to find the differences and, even then, they tend to be superficial (eat pork/don't eat pork; drink alcohol/don't) or nominal (Sabbath on Friday, Saturday or Sunday).

Islam recognizes both Judaism and Christianity as it is the most recent - more modern - of the three major faiths. So it's actually stupid and a sign of ignorance to think it very different as a set of moral precepts - never mind "inferior".

You look at all the varieties of Protestantism in the U.S., which baffle us Europeans and what you find is that each religion glorifies and publicizes its differences at the expense of the 99% of fundamental similarities. [I wanted to say equal beliefs; not "similar" but couldn't find the word].

This problem, which is so human, is what bedevils every ecumenical attempt to bring faiths together on the extraordinary amount of values which they share. People just like to think they're different. And they are, in almost insignificant details. That's no reason to think anyone is any better than anyone else because of what they believe or don't believe in.

It's not for nothing my rabbi is always saying a good Muslim or Christian is worth a million non-observant (he doesn't even say "bad") Jews.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:25 PM on July 29, 2002


Does anybody over 19 still take Ayn Rand seriously? I'm thinking of an arranged marriage between Insomnyuk and Dagny...
posted by websavvy at 1:25 PM on July 29, 2002


I've never read any Rand.
posted by insomnyuk at 1:27 PM on July 29, 2002


Islam recognizes both Judaism and Christianity as it is the most recent - more modern - of the three major faiths. So it's actually stupid and a sign of ignorance to think it very different as a set of moral precepts - never mind "inferior".

Most Christians AND Muslims think their respective religion is correct. As a Muslim friend of mine once claimed, "the New Testament has ninety thousand errors." That's fine, he's entitled to his beliefs, and most people aren't ecumenical, no matter how much you want them to be.
posted by insomnyuk at 1:33 PM on July 29, 2002


But you're young enough to be in the target market...
posted by websavvy at 1:33 PM on July 29, 2002


it's good if you've got patient bowels. i usually shit so fast....
posted by aLienated at 1:34 PM on July 29, 2002


Insomnyuk: I've never read any Rand.

She's sort of like the fervently capitalist version of Socialist Realism. Dry, laughable, melodramatic, and propagandistic. So you really haven't missed anything.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:34 PM on July 29, 2002


Maybe it's stupid to post something on-topic at this point, but...

Unless I'm mistaken, working in these "decency houses" would be a punishment, not vocational counseling. Would the women put in these houses be paid? Would they be allowed to roam around, or would they be confined? I'd hesitate to call this an advance for women without knowing more about how these decency houses would be run.
posted by RylandDotNet at 1:35 PM on July 29, 2002


Maybe Postroad was being sarcastic and this whole thread is unnecessary, Ryland. I also failed to see how decency houses would increase the overall freedom of women in Iran.
posted by insomnyuk at 1:40 PM on July 29, 2002


postroad, you worry me.
posted by mcsweetie at 1:51 PM on July 29, 2002


RELIGION DOES NOT EQUAL RACE

They may not be equal, but the different societies on earth has intertwined them to such a degree that they define each other dialectically. Intolerance of religion may not be exactly the same as racial intolerance, but it's on the same page.

I've heard people trash my beliefs for years, I should have the same privilege.

Glad to know that you're doing your part to spread tolerance.
posted by adampsyche at 1:52 PM on July 29, 2002


Unless I'm mistaken, working in these "decency houses" would be a punishment, not vocational counseling.

From the article:

Street prostitutes picked up by the religious police or other security forces would be given a choice -- take the assistance of social services to give up their profession, or accept a placement in a state-sponsored "decency house" where they could contract temporary marriages with their clients.

This actually seems like a very generous set of options; the policy applies only to current prostitutes, and it gives these prostitutes the choice of continued employment in their field (under what could potentially be greatly improved conditions) or assistance in living without an income from prostitution. Didn't strike me as a policy of punishment at all. Also, the word "contract" implies that the prostitutes will be making money from their "temporary marriages". It's a pretty thin implication upon which to make a judgement, however.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:54 PM on July 29, 2002


Being opposed to the Islamic religion is bad?

Ok, how about being opposed to the part of the Islamic religion that calls for the death of all unbelievers? Is that bad, too?

On the other hand, if it is ok to be opposed to that brand of Islam, where does one draw the line?
posted by eas98 at 1:58 PM on July 29, 2002


If you count matteo's link to the Klan site up there, then this thread should've been over about an hour ago.
posted by britain at 2:10 PM on July 29, 2002


Ok, how about being opposed to the part of the Islamic religion that calls for the death of all unbelievers? Is that bad, too?

I have at least 20 close to somewhat-close friends who are Muslim, and not one of them subscribes to that shit. None of them have shown up at my house with a scimitar, calling for my death. Every one of them accepts my beliefs, and I accept theirs.

I also know plenty of Catholics, and they all use birth control.

Maybe you should try to actually talk to people and try to understand them instead of just attacking them based on your pre-existing conceptions. Try it sometime, you might like it.
posted by adampsyche at 2:10 PM on July 29, 2002


This is the worst, stupidest thread ever. If there were a gold medal for the number and amount of personal attacks, hypocrisy, and shrill howlers crying racist... well, most of you would have gold medals.

Anyone in need of a shower after wading through this raw sewage, we're setting up a detox unit outside.
posted by evanizer at 2:10 PM on July 29, 2002


Glad to know that you're doing your part to spread tolerance.

Whatever. My version of tolerance is this: allow people to be free to believe what they wish. I disagree with relativistic tolerance which ironically, only tolerates its own viewpoint. It seems like a contradiction that you have to 'tolerate' every religion, when in fact most of those religions don't preach tolerance in the first place.
posted by insomnyuk at 2:12 PM on July 29, 2002


Tolerance includes tolerating assholes...
posted by websavvy at 2:26 PM on July 29, 2002


OK, no pulse, no respiration... it's 2:32PM PST, I'm calling it. This thread is DOA.
posted by RylandDotNet at 2:33 PM on July 29, 2002


It seems like a contradiction that you have to 'tolerate' every religion, when in fact most of those religions don't preach tolerance in the first place.

I agree, and I think I understand better where you are coming from. I was taken aback to see the posts that you made in this thread, but I think you just didn't communicate yourself very well (and that is to your credit).

My point is this: just because the "powers that be" preach it, doesn't mean that all of its followers subscribe to it. I am sure they are out there (obviously), but not one Muslim that I know believes that all non-Muslims are evil and will go to hell. They seem to find a niche in the religion that they can exist in, and this is where sects form.

I lament the intolerance preached by religious tenents today, but that just doesn't mean that it is subscribed to and taken seriously. Apart from the wackos, Islam has some beautiful characteristics. I disagree with many parts of it as well, hence I am not a Muslim. I just wouldn't go as far as saying that I am "against it."

Mental note: avoid future Pantload threads like the plague. It just isn't worth it.
posted by adampsyche at 2:50 PM on July 29, 2002


Such an interesting article, too. Pity about this thread.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:53 PM on July 29, 2002


My point is this: just because the "powers that be" preach it, doesn't mean that all of its followers subscribe to it.

I agree, and have seen the same thing from experience.

I got pretty upset after matteo linked to kukluxklan.com telling me I would "like it."
posted by insomnyuk at 3:03 PM on July 29, 2002


This thread needs a big plumber's helper and a good flush..
posted by hockeyman at 3:47 PM on July 29, 2002


Mr Roboto, I also thought the article was pretty good. Well thought out and researched. Shows how the moderates in the Iranian government are actually trying to update their society.

But I "flew off the handle" when I started seeing posts calling this racist. Didn't mean for this to turn into an I/P thread :/ Sorry, I contributed to the downfall of the thread.
posted by mkelley at 3:59 PM on July 29, 2002


downfall? hell, we got to see matteo calling insomnyuk a klukker. far more exciting than wanking off in the "who's the best british blogger" thread. i just don't understand mefi some days...
posted by quonsar at 4:08 PM on July 29, 2002


Tolerance can include BOYCOTTS, the organised shunning of offensive material/organisations/products/concepts/nations; I will uphold the boycott of racist, hateful & destructive threads on MeFi, and to build a more powerful message will post an appropriate, one-word BOYCOTT link to the thread which I will then BOYCOTT, like so:
posted by dash_slot- at 6:14 PM on July 29, 2002


BOYCOTT
posted by dash_slot- at 6:15 PM on July 29, 2002


I thought it was most days.
posted by websavvy at 7:31 PM on July 29, 2002


The Qu'ran claims that it is true. I disagree. Also, I think Islam is a false religion, as I think there is no such being as the Allah written about in the Qu'ran.

Heh. If you only knew how funny (and ironic) that was from the outside.

I certainly support your right to believe that--and to express that belief, but...geez, do you really not see the irony?
posted by rushmc at 9:12 PM on July 29, 2002


hrm, 78 comments and what, two about the actual artical? Anyway, it seems like a good idea to me, and certanly intresting with the temporary marrage angle. hrm.

Also, postroad == anti-islamic-people. yup.
posted by delmoi at 9:20 PM on July 29, 2002


rushmc: was it funny because it was ironic?(and yes, as I wrote it I realized it would seem extremely ironic). At least you got a good laugh out of it, I sure didn't get many laughs from this thread.
posted by insomnyuk at 12:04 AM on July 30, 2002


Funny because it was ironic, yes, and funny in the sense of watching the blind men trying to describe the elephant (which while quite likely a heartrending and frustrating scene, is also inevitably a humorous one).
posted by rushmc at 7:06 AM on July 30, 2002


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