Four Hylian shrooms
August 4, 2020 8:44 AM Subscribe
While reading acclaimed Irish novelist John Boyne's latest book The Traveller At the Gates of Wisdom, a Reddit user spotted a strangely familiar set of ingredients for red dye that included "spicy pepper, the tail of the red lizalfos and four Hylian shrooms." This happens to be how you dye clothes in The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild – and the top Google search result for "ingredients red dye clothes". Boyne fessed up and plans to "leave it as it is".
Not just the Holocaust Museum, in fact!
posted by ominous_paws at 8:49 AM on August 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by ominous_paws at 8:49 AM on August 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
“Everybody loves John Boyne, the zany, madcap historical-fiction author who put Legend of Zelda ingredients in a story set in 5th-century Europe!”
five seconds later: “We regret to inform you…”
posted by acb at 8:59 AM on August 4, 2020 [42 favorites]
five seconds later: “We regret to inform you…”
posted by acb at 8:59 AM on August 4, 2020 [42 favorites]
What do book editors do?
posted by muddgirl at 9:01 AM on August 4, 2020 [29 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 9:01 AM on August 4, 2020 [29 favorites]
Having a hard time understanding how anyone could do that "by accident" when it is pretty clear that the passage wasn't just 100% lifted from a website. It had to be pieced together. In the process of doing that it would be very obvious to anyone doing it that it came from a video game (find me a single online guide for games that doesn't include screenshots and videos these days...)
There's just no way this was anything other than intentional.
And guess what, it is getting press for the book. GEE HOW DID THAT HAPPEN
posted by caution live frogs at 9:02 AM on August 4, 2020 [15 favorites]
There's just no way this was anything other than intentional.
And guess what, it is getting press for the book. GEE HOW DID THAT HAPPEN
posted by caution live frogs at 9:02 AM on August 4, 2020 [15 favorites]
What do book editors do?
To be strictly fair the answer is "read terrible manuscripts at every waking hour", which really cuts into your Breath of the Wild time...
posted by ominous_paws at 9:04 AM on August 4, 2020 [53 favorites]
To be strictly fair the answer is "read terrible manuscripts at every waking hour", which really cuts into your Breath of the Wild time...
posted by ominous_paws at 9:04 AM on August 4, 2020 [53 favorites]
I guess the Zelda stuff is appropriate because "I was overwhelmed with fear as Abrila and I entered Attila's bedchamber for to be discovered there would have led to me being put to death in the most creative fashion" is sub-fanfic level writing
posted by theodolite at 9:05 AM on August 4, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 9:05 AM on August 4, 2020 [11 favorites]
"Acclaimed" novelist.
posted by betweenthebars at 9:06 AM on August 4, 2020
posted by betweenthebars at 9:06 AM on August 4, 2020
Like I've long suspected that for some authors, after they have a bestselling novel editors don't touch their manuscript at all beyond running it though a spell checker, but in this case surely even a spell checker would catch that Keese or Octoroks are not real.
posted by muddgirl at 9:11 AM on August 4, 2020
posted by muddgirl at 9:11 AM on August 4, 2020
What do book editors do?
Comment on books to the author and the publisher, who should have been the adult supervision here if theplagarism homage had been flagged by an editor.
posted by lon_star at 9:19 AM on August 4, 2020
Comment on books to the author and the publisher, who should have been the adult supervision here if the
posted by lon_star at 9:19 AM on August 4, 2020
Wait, he didn't include this intentionally as a kind of easter egg? He actually saw the ingredient "octorok eyeball" and said yes, that is totally an animal that exists in real life.
posted by Eddie Mars at 9:37 AM on August 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by Eddie Mars at 9:37 AM on August 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
On the other hand, this is almost certainly the first use of "octorok" in American literary fiction, and that's neat
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:47 AM on August 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:47 AM on August 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
Before reading the article I assumed he'd stuck it in as a placeholder to fix later. But no, he's just astonishingly lazy.
posted by Stoof at 9:49 AM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Stoof at 9:49 AM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
Having a hard time understanding how anyone could do that "by accident" when it is pretty clear that the passage wasn't just 100% lifted from a website. It had to be pieced together. In the process of doing that it would be very obvious to anyone doing it that it came from a video game
Just try googling "Red Dye Clothes Ingredients". I get one of those "helpful" google boxes that lists out the ingredients in bullet point form.
There are certainly enough clues in the box to let you figure out it's from a video game, even if you're not a gamer, but it's not "very obvious" if you just want to scribble down a few ingredients, insert them into your text, and move on.
posted by mark k at 9:49 AM on August 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
Just try googling "Red Dye Clothes Ingredients". I get one of those "helpful" google boxes that lists out the ingredients in bullet point form.
There are certainly enough clues in the box to let you figure out it's from a video game, even if you're not a gamer, but it's not "very obvious" if you just want to scribble down a few ingredients, insert them into your text, and move on.
posted by mark k at 9:49 AM on August 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
Honest question -- I've never owned a console, so I have essentially no familiarity with any Zelda. Is Breath of The Wild a game about dying clothes? Where the main topic of discussion amongst players and source of famous dialog from the game is about dying clothes, and getting the ingredients to dye them with? Or is dying clothes a side thing you can do that no one other than obsessives care about? Or is this somewhere in between?
Because obviously an author who plagiarizes is the primary one responsible for the plagiarism. It seems odd to me to blame their editor, which implies they need to know literally everything in the entire exponentially expanding pop culture universe. Like if an author tried to give a minor character a name stolen from Star Wars, it's the editor's fault if a character named "Luke Skywalker" slips through, but I'm not as sure about "Temiri Blagg".
posted by Superilla at 9:50 AM on August 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
Because obviously an author who plagiarizes is the primary one responsible for the plagiarism. It seems odd to me to blame their editor, which implies they need to know literally everything in the entire exponentially expanding pop culture universe. Like if an author tried to give a minor character a name stolen from Star Wars, it's the editor's fault if a character named "Luke Skywalker" slips through, but I'm not as sure about "Temiri Blagg".
posted by Superilla at 9:50 AM on August 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
As this is the least stupid thing Boyne is done in his recent career, i'm going to say this is part of his redemptive arc.
posted by q*ben at 9:51 AM on August 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by q*ben at 9:51 AM on August 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
He actually saw the ingredient "octorok eyeball" and said yes, that is totally an animal that exists in real life.
And capitalized the name of the animal, like it was a proprietary invention of someone else. No one would say "Cat's whiskers" or "Dog snot" when writing out the ingredients.
But also, here are exhibits a through (how ever many ingredients he included) on why I will never be a historical novelist: I would have spent two or three years poring through archaeology texts to try to figure out exactly what kind of ingredients someone in the 5th century steppe would have used for dyeing - and whether dressmakers actually dye their own cloth? that sounds unreasonable - and never written the actual book.
I mean, I'm also not a novelist and have a full-time job. I did actually toy for a bit with the idea of writing a historical novel set in a period and region I knew well - but got too hung up on my lack of knowledge of Anglican theological debates of the early 1800s for my parson character to be struggling with, and it died as a germ of an idea in my mind.
posted by jb at 9:52 AM on August 4, 2020 [8 favorites]
And capitalized the name of the animal, like it was a proprietary invention of someone else. No one would say "Cat's whiskers" or "Dog snot" when writing out the ingredients.
But also, here are exhibits a through (how ever many ingredients he included) on why I will never be a historical novelist: I would have spent two or three years poring through archaeology texts to try to figure out exactly what kind of ingredients someone in the 5th century steppe would have used for dyeing - and whether dressmakers actually dye their own cloth? that sounds unreasonable - and never written the actual book.
I mean, I'm also not a novelist and have a full-time job. I did actually toy for a bit with the idea of writing a historical novel set in a period and region I knew well - but got too hung up on my lack of knowledge of Anglican theological debates of the early 1800s for my parson character to be struggling with, and it died as a germ of an idea in my mind.
posted by jb at 9:52 AM on August 4, 2020 [8 favorites]
Yeah definitely reads as Popular Author Syndrome where editors stop doing their jobs. See also the later Harry Potter sequels, the later Game of Thrones books, and the most recent Dresden Files book which got so long that it had to be expanded to two books and which had several obvious typos.
The best of which was: "And then his practice sword blurred as it swept down toward Sanya. Santa intercepted with a deflection parry"
posted by JDHarper at 9:52 AM on August 4, 2020 [19 favorites]
The best of which was: "And then his practice sword blurred as it swept down toward Sanya. Santa intercepted with a deflection parry"
posted by JDHarper at 9:52 AM on August 4, 2020 [19 favorites]
Superilla: it's a small side thing you can do to change the color of your shirt etc.
posted by dozo at 9:53 AM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by dozo at 9:53 AM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
I never dyed clothes in the hundreds of hours of playing. I didn't even know it needed ingredients (although I could have guessed based on the rest of the game).
I wouldn't expect an author or editor to know these are ingredients from a video game, not from real life. But I would expect one, the other, or both to stop and think "hm I've never heard of an octorok before!"
posted by muddgirl at 9:55 AM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't expect an author or editor to know these are ingredients from a video game, not from real life. But I would expect one, the other, or both to stop and think "hm I've never heard of an octorok before!"
posted by muddgirl at 9:55 AM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Have not read the thing, but Googlebooks tags it as, among other things, Fairy tale and fantasy.
I would not expect an editor of a fairy tale/fantasy novel to fact check for strange animal names. They have enough on their plates as it is.
posted by BWA at 10:05 AM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I would not expect an editor of a fairy tale/fantasy novel to fact check for strange animal names. They have enough on their plates as it is.
posted by BWA at 10:05 AM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I have put more researching time and effort into jokes that I put into my fanfiction, which I write and post for free on the internet. Honest to god, every time I feel even the slightest moment of doubt in my writing skills, I will remind myself of stuff like this and comport myself with the confidence of a mediocre white man, secure in the knowledge that I have almost certainly put in more effort than them.
posted by yasaman at 10:09 AM on August 4, 2020 [25 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 10:09 AM on August 4, 2020 [25 favorites]
John Boyne is terrible and I very much hope he gets sued by Nintendo.
posted by death valley compound at 10:13 AM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by death valley compound at 10:13 AM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
is dying clothes a side thing you can do that no one other than obsessives care about? Or is this somewhere in between?
Crafting things from stuff with weird names like "octorok eyeball" is a core mechanic of the game. Dying clothes is a particular thing you could craft but it's easy to miss.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:15 AM on August 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
Crafting things from stuff with weird names like "octorok eyeball" is a core mechanic of the game. Dying clothes is a particular thing you could craft but it's easy to miss.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:15 AM on August 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
Honest question -- I've never owned a console, so I have essentially no familiarity with any Zelda. Is Breath of The Wild a game about dying clothes? Where the main topic of discussion amongst players and source of famous dialog from the game is about dying clothes, and getting the ingredients to dye them with? Or is dying clothes a side thing you can do that no one other than obsessives care about? Or is this somewhere in between?
Dying clothes in BOTW is not something you need to do and you can easily put a lot of time into the game without doing it. But, you'll still run across those items in other contexts, frequently. "Lizafos" is the name of a common enemy in the game. "Octoroks" are a Zelda series staple -- octopi that spit rocks at you -- that have been around under that name since the NES days.
And the book is apparently a fantasy/historical hybrid in that it starts out in what we'd consider the "real world" but extends into the future as well, and the clothes-dying part happens in the historical-fiction section of the narrative.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:16 AM on August 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
Dying clothes in BOTW is not something you need to do and you can easily put a lot of time into the game without doing it. But, you'll still run across those items in other contexts, frequently. "Lizafos" is the name of a common enemy in the game. "Octoroks" are a Zelda series staple -- octopi that spit rocks at you -- that have been around under that name since the NES days.
And the book is apparently a fantasy/historical hybrid in that it starts out in what we'd consider the "real world" but extends into the future as well, and the clothes-dying part happens in the historical-fiction section of the narrative.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:16 AM on August 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
If I had seen "keese" or "octorok" and didn't know them, I would do a quick search cos hey, what kind of animal (is it an animal? plant? something weird and made-up from one of the Greeks?) is that? The same I do with any word I come across that I don't already know. That's just.. just how you do things! Sometimes it feels like there's not a lot of benefit of living in 2020 but we've at least got that much.
(also how is it that octoroks only get MORE annoying as time goes on? So easy to deal with in the early games.)
posted by curious nu at 10:18 AM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
(also how is it that octoroks only get MORE annoying as time goes on? So easy to deal with in the early games.)
posted by curious nu at 10:18 AM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
To be clear, Boyne is not being accused of plagiarism, but of extremely sloppy research. He clearly found a list of red dye ingredients and then incorporated them into the text in his own words. It's just that the list of red dye ingredients he found came from a video game and not real life.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 10:19 AM on August 4, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by the turtle's teeth at 10:19 AM on August 4, 2020 [12 favorites]
To be clear, Boyne is not being accused of plagiarism, but of extremely sloppy research. He clearly found a list of red dye ingredients and then incorporated them into the text in his own words. It's just that the list of red dye ingredients he found came from a video game and not real life.
Think of it more like an unintentional Easter Egg. It doesn’t take away from the book, just something that was supposed to be real, but wasn’t
posted by jmauro at 10:23 AM on August 4, 2020
Think of it more like an unintentional Easter Egg. It doesn’t take away from the book, just something that was supposed to be real, but wasn’t
posted by jmauro at 10:23 AM on August 4, 2020
> Superilla: "It seems odd to me to blame their editor, which implies they need to know literally everything in the entire exponentially expanding pop culture universe."
I mean, that's kind of the thing. If they weren't familiar with lizalfos and octoroks, why wouldn't they have tried to look them up? I mean, somehow they thought to capitalize "Octorok" and "Hylian" but not "lizalfo." How did they even make that determination?
Also, another giveaway that something was up with this passage is the use of sapphire. Somehow "almost all" of this character's dyes required sapphires? That sounds... expensive. Plus, I dunno if you can even make a dye from sapphires?
posted by mhum at 10:39 AM on August 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
I mean, that's kind of the thing. If they weren't familiar with lizalfos and octoroks, why wouldn't they have tried to look them up? I mean, somehow they thought to capitalize "Octorok" and "Hylian" but not "lizalfo." How did they even make that determination?
Also, another giveaway that something was up with this passage is the use of sapphire. Somehow "almost all" of this character's dyes required sapphires? That sounds... expensive. Plus, I dunno if you can even make a dye from sapphires?
posted by mhum at 10:39 AM on August 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
What are the odds that he actually looked this stuff up himself vs. having an assistant do it?
posted by ckape at 10:43 AM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by ckape at 10:43 AM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
theodolite wrote:
posted by erikred at 10:45 AM on August 4, 2020
I guess the Zelda stuff is appropriate because "I was overwhelmed with fear as Abrila and I entered Attila's bedchamber for to be discovered there would have led to me being put to death in the most creative fashion" is sub-fanfic level writingHey, don't punch down on Zelda for Boyne's lack of talent. (But good god, yes, that is some terrible writing.)
posted by erikred at 10:45 AM on August 4, 2020
Think of it more like an unintentional Easter Egg. It doesn’t take away from the book, just something that was supposed to be real, but wasn’t
Yeah but he's someone with a reputation for arguing about historical accuracy and being a jerk about it. Less easter egg more like hubris justly punished.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 10:50 AM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
Yeah but he's someone with a reputation for arguing about historical accuracy and being a jerk about it. Less easter egg more like hubris justly punished.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 10:50 AM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
This is the guy who told trans folk "it must hurt to be so woke." when they criticized his portrayal of trans folk, and argued with a Holocaust museum about the Holocaust. Who's fault is this mistake going to be? Google's? Nintendo's?
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 11:08 AM on August 4, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 11:08 AM on August 4, 2020 [12 favorites]
Before today I would have sworn that an octorok was one of the little monsters from a Sonic the Hedgehog game.
posted by Night_owl at 11:48 AM on August 4, 2020
posted by Night_owl at 11:48 AM on August 4, 2020
Before today I would have sworn that an octorok was one of the little monsters from a Sonic the Hedgehog game.
No, you're thinking of Doc Ock.
posted by curious nu at 11:58 AM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
No, you're thinking of Doc Ock.
posted by curious nu at 11:58 AM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
Superilla: "Honest question -- I've never owned a console, so I have essentially no familiarity with any Zelda. Is Breath of The Wild a game about dying clothes? "
It is if you play it right.
Also, Zelda is the boy.
posted by signal at 12:19 PM on August 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
It is if you play it right.
Also, Zelda is the boy.
posted by signal at 12:19 PM on August 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
mark k: "Just try googling "Red Dye Clothes Ingredients". I get one of those "helpful" google boxes that lists out the ingredients in bullet point form."
It's not that. It's the entire passage above it, which includes Silent Princess and keese wings and octoroks and so on. You can't google "red clothes dye" and get one little box that includes all that.
After reading the comments though, at this point I am kind of putting money on an assistant trolling his/her boss... but there is no way this is anything other than intentional.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:20 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's not that. It's the entire passage above it, which includes Silent Princess and keese wings and octoroks and so on. You can't google "red clothes dye" and get one little box that includes all that.
After reading the comments though, at this point I am kind of putting money on an assistant trolling his/her boss... but there is no way this is anything other than intentional.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:20 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
> Before today I would have sworn that an octorok was one of the little monsters from a Sonic the Hedgehog game.
No, you're thinking of Doc Ock.
No, he's a Spider-man villain. You're thinking of Cop Rock.
posted by hanov3r at 12:24 PM on August 4, 2020 [12 favorites]
No, you're thinking of Doc Ock.
No, he's a Spider-man villain. You're thinking of Cop Rock.
posted by hanov3r at 12:24 PM on August 4, 2020 [12 favorites]
Think of it more like an unintentional Easter Egg. It doesn’t take away from the book, just something that was supposed to be real, but wasn’t
For historical fiction it very much takes away from the entire rest of the book, because if the author was this sloppy researching a simple thing, what else was he sloppy on?
And it's not like Octoroks and Keeses are a kinda obscure thing from a fairly recent Nintendo game. The original game came out in 1986! Zelda is one of the most popular franchises in gaming! Kids were rapping about Octoroks in embarrassing Nintendo commercials thirty years ago!
posted by neckro23 at 12:44 PM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
For historical fiction it very much takes away from the entire rest of the book, because if the author was this sloppy researching a simple thing, what else was he sloppy on?
And it's not like Octoroks and Keeses are a kinda obscure thing from a fairly recent Nintendo game. The original game came out in 1986! Zelda is one of the most popular franchises in gaming! Kids were rapping about Octoroks in embarrassing Nintendo commercials thirty years ago!
posted by neckro23 at 12:44 PM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
Dang it, you'd think I could at least read the latest John Boyne novel without worrying about Breath of the Wild spoilers.
posted by straight at 1:06 PM on August 4, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by straight at 1:06 PM on August 4, 2020 [10 favorites]
You’re all going to feel foolish when you learn that octorok eyeball is a type of flower commonly used in traditional Irish dyes and named for the man who first mentioned it in print, Lord Theodore Octorok.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 1:10 PM on August 4, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by Parasite Unseen at 1:10 PM on August 4, 2020 [10 favorites]
On the other hand, this is almost certainly the first use of "octorok" in American literary fiction
acclaimed Irish novelist
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:20 PM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
acclaimed Irish novelist
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:20 PM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
Actually, upon closer read, leaving aside the fact that the recipe is Zelda references, I feel like there's some... lax (?) editing going on here:
2) What's going on with "the tail of the red lizalfos"? I can see "the tail of a red lizalfos" or "tail of the red lizalfos" or even "a tail of the red lizalfos" but something with this particular phrasing seems off. Is this really just one singular tail or is it a metaphor for an inderminate number of tails?
3) The first ingredient is specified with no article, the second has a "the" (in a weird & ambigous way), and the last specifies a number. I'm not sure exactly what he was going for here.
Now, it's probably unfair to pick on just one sentence out of an entire novel like this, but now I'm curious exactly how this book was edited overall.
posted by mhum at 1:28 PM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
In addtion, for the red I had used for Abrila's dress, I employed spicy pepper, the tail of the red lizalfos and four Hylian shrooms.1) What's a "spicy pepper"? Does this mean something like a jalapeno or more like black pepper? And if the latter, why is it called "spicy pepper"? Is it ground or is it in peppercorn form? And if the former, were those even available in ... wherever this is supposed to take place whenever this is supposed to take place? I can't tell if this is before or after Columbus.
2) What's going on with "the tail of the red lizalfos"? I can see "the tail of a red lizalfos" or "tail of the red lizalfos" or even "a tail of the red lizalfos" but something with this particular phrasing seems off. Is this really just one singular tail or is it a metaphor for an inderminate number of tails?
3) The first ingredient is specified with no article, the second has a "the" (in a weird & ambigous way), and the last specifies a number. I'm not sure exactly what he was going for here.
Now, it's probably unfair to pick on just one sentence out of an entire novel like this, but now I'm curious exactly how this book was edited overall.
posted by mhum at 1:28 PM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
For historical fiction it very much takes away from the entire rest of the book, because if the author was this sloppy researching a simple thing, what else was he sloppy on?
It's still not as painful to me as the historical novel where one of the major plot points revolved around a drought in north-west England in the 1330s - you know, one of the rainiest regions in England, itself a famously rainy country, and in the decade when all the crops failed due to the EXCESS RAIN?
Okay, maybe that's just me. Agricultural accuracy is really important to me - I didn't finish that book, or the other one where two manors were fighting over irrigation dams. Manors and towns did fight about dams, but in England it's never a fight over an upriver dam keeping the water away from you, but a downriver dam that's flooding your fields - and they are usually drainage, not irrigation, canals. tl;dr: England is not the California and English farms are not in a desert, though sometimes they did try to farm swamps.
posted by jb at 1:31 PM on August 4, 2020 [12 favorites]
It's still not as painful to me as the historical novel where one of the major plot points revolved around a drought in north-west England in the 1330s - you know, one of the rainiest regions in England, itself a famously rainy country, and in the decade when all the crops failed due to the EXCESS RAIN?
Okay, maybe that's just me. Agricultural accuracy is really important to me - I didn't finish that book, or the other one where two manors were fighting over irrigation dams. Manors and towns did fight about dams, but in England it's never a fight over an upriver dam keeping the water away from you, but a downriver dam that's flooding your fields - and they are usually drainage, not irrigation, canals. tl;dr: England is not the California and English farms are not in a desert, though sometimes they did try to farm swamps.
posted by jb at 1:31 PM on August 4, 2020 [12 favorites]
Back to the dyes: adding "medieval" to your google search brings up some many more fascinating and actually true pre-modern dye recipes. Unfortunately, madder (one of the most common sources for red) isn't poisonous.
posted by jb at 1:37 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by jb at 1:37 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
What's a "spicy pepper"?
Spicy Pepper is also an ingredient from Breath of the Wild, believe it or not.
posted by muddgirl at 1:55 PM on August 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
Spicy Pepper is also an ingredient from Breath of the Wild, believe it or not.
posted by muddgirl at 1:55 PM on August 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
My main takeaway from all of this is that apparently you can become a best-selling "literary" author while treating the actual meat and potatoes of historical fiction -- namely, imparting the fruits of in-depth research to your readers through immersive, descriptive prose -- as basically a series of Mad Libs blanks to be filled in by cursory googling and an aggressively incurious stance towards double-checking your sources.
The fact that he owned up to it and didn't try to pass it off as "ha ha, congratulations on finding my clever Easter egg!" is actually a shocking admission because it shows that he doesn't think his laziness is at all embarrassing.
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:00 PM on August 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
The fact that he owned up to it and didn't try to pass it off as "ha ha, congratulations on finding my clever Easter egg!" is actually a shocking admission because it shows that he doesn't think his laziness is at all embarrassing.
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:00 PM on August 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
Just try googling "Red Dye Clothes Ingredients". I get one of those "helpful" google boxes that lists out the ingredients in bullet point form.
The complete Dana Schwartz Twitter thread confirms this as well.
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:08 PM on August 4, 2020
The complete Dana Schwartz Twitter thread confirms this as well.
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:08 PM on August 4, 2020
> muddgirl:
"What's a "spicy pepper"?
Spicy Pepper is also an ingredient from Breath of the Wild, believe it or not."
Oh yes, I'm quite aware. They're red like chile arbol and come in threes per bush. I actually just finished BotW this weekend. I was thinking more that even from the POV of an editor who hadn't encountered any of these Zelda things, the phrasing of that sentence could have used some work. Like, if the editor really didn't know about Zelda, then how would they have read that use of "spicy pepper" and thought "yeah, cool" rather than "hang on, why did you say it like that?"
posted by mhum at 2:20 PM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
"What's a "spicy pepper"?
Spicy Pepper is also an ingredient from Breath of the Wild, believe it or not."
Oh yes, I'm quite aware. They're red like chile arbol and come in threes per bush. I actually just finished BotW this weekend. I was thinking more that even from the POV of an editor who hadn't encountered any of these Zelda things, the phrasing of that sentence could have used some work. Like, if the editor really didn't know about Zelda, then how would they have read that use of "spicy pepper" and thought "yeah, cool" rather than "hang on, why did you say it like that?"
posted by mhum at 2:20 PM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
Have you had grocery store peppers? Clearly you need a spicy pepper. How else do you expect your dress to be hot?
posted by curious nu at 2:23 PM on August 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by curious nu at 2:23 PM on August 4, 2020 [9 favorites]
> Strange Interlude:"The complete Dana Schwartz Twitter thread confirms this as well."
What's interesting to me about that thread is that it has a screenshot of one of those Google infoboxes for red dye. But the actual paragraph includes ingredients for other, non-red dyes like octorok eyeball (yellow), swift violet (purple), sapphire (blue), and keese wing (gray). So, he couldn't have just been relying on that one infobox. He must have either googled multiple times for different colors and relied solely on those infoboxes or he clicked through to some more comprehensive article that listed ingredients for all the dyes (like this one from Polygon) and somehow he didn't notice that the article he clicked on was about a videogame. Either way, it's real, real sloppy work.
posted by mhum at 2:29 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
What's interesting to me about that thread is that it has a screenshot of one of those Google infoboxes for red dye. But the actual paragraph includes ingredients for other, non-red dyes like octorok eyeball (yellow), swift violet (purple), sapphire (blue), and keese wing (gray). So, he couldn't have just been relying on that one infobox. He must have either googled multiple times for different colors and relied solely on those infoboxes or he clicked through to some more comprehensive article that listed ingredients for all the dyes (like this one from Polygon) and somehow he didn't notice that the article he clicked on was about a videogame. Either way, it's real, real sloppy work.
posted by mhum at 2:29 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm leaning towards the "malicious assistant" theory because the passage is too clunky to have been written by an actual author, even a not-great one. It's just possible it was a very stupid assistant cutting&pasting something, but I feel it had to be deliberate. What's unarguable, though, is that Boyne didn't even read his own manuscript.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:34 PM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:34 PM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
“I’ve always said the worst advice you can give to young writers is write about what you know,” he said. “Write about what you don’t know. If we only write about what we know, it’s all biography.”
This mindset seems to be working out splendidly for him on all fronts.
Of course, if he had followed that advice, he’d have nothing to write about.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:34 PM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
This mindset seems to be working out splendidly for him on all fronts.
Of course, if he had followed that advice, he’d have nothing to write about.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:34 PM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
My favorite Nintendo commercial from the 80s, featuring Octoroks and P-p-p-peahats!
posted by Horkus at 2:43 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Horkus at 2:43 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
jb, there’s a current popular alternate-Mississippi series in which a plot point requires that the river flows uphill. I reread the two chapters previous to this event a couple times, Post-It’s and notes and mapmaking and all, and it was just... I don’t know if it was laziness or incuriosity or what, but I can’t read anything by that author, my disbelief is just permanently suspended.
Yours in minimally adequate hydrology
posted by clew at 3:00 PM on August 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
Yours in minimally adequate hydrology
posted by clew at 3:00 PM on August 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
I had a copyeditor write an essay in my notes about how they couldn't find any mention of "purple and white turnip(s)" anywhere, even as an heirloom variety, and could I check my citation? When there was none, I was just saying that turnips are purple and white.
But this dude can shovel in multiple Zelda recipes that make it to print??? Did he turn this book in and they had to crash it or something? Because I've never had a copyeditor who wasn't ALL ABOUT the minutest detail about literally flipping everything. You can still put weird stuff in, but they WILL ask and you HAVE to stet them.
Like, Boyne's books just go directly to the typesetter? I'm like... wow.
posted by headspace at 3:11 PM on August 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
But this dude can shovel in multiple Zelda recipes that make it to print??? Did he turn this book in and they had to crash it or something? Because I've never had a copyeditor who wasn't ALL ABOUT the minutest detail about literally flipping everything. You can still put weird stuff in, but they WILL ask and you HAVE to stet them.
Like, Boyne's books just go directly to the typesetter? I'm like... wow.
posted by headspace at 3:11 PM on August 4, 2020 [13 favorites]
I like "leaves of the silent princess plant" (I always assumed we were using the flower) but then the list ends with just "hightail lizard" (I guess the whole lizard?)
posted by muddgirl at 3:15 PM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 3:15 PM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
The phrase “as inoffensive to the nose as it was damaging to the body” implies that the dye either smells terrible or will hurt you, or perhaps just a little bit of both.
This guy is some kinda wordsmith, all right.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 3:36 PM on August 4, 2020
This guy is some kinda wordsmith, all right.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 3:36 PM on August 4, 2020
jb, there’s a current popular alternate-Mississippi series in which a plot point requires that the river flows uphill. I reread the two chapters previous to this event a couple times, Post-It’s and notes and mapmaking and all, and it was just... I don’t know if it was laziness or incuriosity or what, but I can’t read anything by that author, my disbelief is just permanently suspended.
I don't know what series you're talking about but could this not be a reference to the time the Mississippi literally did flow backwards?
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:00 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don't know what series you're talking about but could this not be a reference to the time the Mississippi literally did flow backwards?
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:00 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I find it so weird that people here can't believe that an author who sells a lot of books, and has abundantly proved himself through The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas not to care about the context of what his work, is actually a slapdash hack, and could really be this uncurious about what he writes.
posted by ambrosen at 4:44 PM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 4:44 PM on August 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
(That would have been great, showbiz_liz! But no, there’s a watergate and for plot reasons the effects of opening or closing the watergate are on the wrong side. ARGH.)
posted by clew at 4:53 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 4:53 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
jb, there’s a current popular alternate-Mississippi series in which a plot point requires that the river flows uphill. I reread the two chapters previous to this event a couple times, Post-It’s and notes and mapmaking and all, and it was just... I don’t know if it was laziness or incuriosity or what, but I can’t read anything by that author, my disbelief is just permanently suspended.
The Feb. 7, 1812 earthquake did cause the Mississippi to flow backward "for several hours".
I'd known about the backward flow, but had assumed it was a very short term phenomenon until I found that link for the purposes of this comment.
posted by jamjam at 5:17 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
The Feb. 7, 1812 earthquake did cause the Mississippi to flow backward "for several hours".
I'd known about the backward flow, but had assumed it was a very short term phenomenon until I found that link for the purposes of this comment.
posted by jamjam at 5:17 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
The phrase “as inoffensive to the nose as it was damaging to the body” implies that the dye either smells terrible or will hurt you, or perhaps just a little bit of both.
Judging from the rest of the page, the character supposedly has some concoction to poison someone's drink that has no odor to warn them.
But yeah, it's clunky in the same way as, "the ninjas were as silent as they were deadly."
posted by straight at 6:42 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Judging from the rest of the page, the character supposedly has some concoction to poison someone's drink that has no odor to warn them.
But yeah, it's clunky in the same way as, "the ninjas were as silent as they were deadly."
posted by straight at 6:42 PM on August 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
But yeah, it's clunky in the same way as, "the ninjas were as silent as they were deadly."
If I saw that sentence in a book, I would definitely never forget it. It’s way more delightful to me than this mistake. Guy can show his ass to Holocaust survivors and trans people and still go merrily along doing a terrible job, while I am paralyzed by fear that I will hurt someone by inaccuracy in my historical fiction.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:47 PM on August 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
If I saw that sentence in a book, I would definitely never forget it. It’s way more delightful to me than this mistake. Guy can show his ass to Holocaust survivors and trans people and still go merrily along doing a terrible job, while I am paralyzed by fear that I will hurt someone by inaccuracy in my historical fiction.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:47 PM on August 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
Metafilter: the ninjas were as silent as they were deadly
I mean, they were Metafilter ninjas so they were neither silent nor deadly
posted by medusa at 6:51 PM on August 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
I mean, they were Metafilter ninjas so they were neither silent nor deadly
posted by medusa at 6:51 PM on August 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
But definitely comparable in silence and deadliness
posted by medusa at 6:52 PM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by medusa at 6:52 PM on August 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
What's going on with "the tail of the red lizalfos"?
You do sometimes hear someone talk that way to indicate an unusual or unfamiliar creature. "And in this tank you can see the longfin mako shark which can be found in tropical waters all over the world."
posted by straight at 6:56 PM on August 4, 2020
You do sometimes hear someone talk that way to indicate an unusual or unfamiliar creature. "And in this tank you can see the longfin mako shark which can be found in tropical waters all over the world."
posted by straight at 6:56 PM on August 4, 2020
I’m still thinking about the Irish Times review where the reviewer picked up on the very very obvious Zelda items and assumed it was all for literary effect rather than just being incompetent research.
Just the amount of privilege he has for a reviewer to assume that your weird mistakes are in fact a literary device; like JK Rowling’s grotesques when she’s trying to do satire. Someone like John Boyne will be trusted to tell the story of a Holocaust survivor or a trans person over an actual Holocaust survivor or trans person because of that assumption that this is a man who does Serious Literature who imparts Great Emotional Truths.
posted by Merus at 7:27 PM on August 4, 2020 [8 favorites]
Just the amount of privilege he has for a reviewer to assume that your weird mistakes are in fact a literary device; like JK Rowling’s grotesques when she’s trying to do satire. Someone like John Boyne will be trusted to tell the story of a Holocaust survivor or a trans person over an actual Holocaust survivor or trans person because of that assumption that this is a man who does Serious Literature who imparts Great Emotional Truths.
posted by Merus at 7:27 PM on August 4, 2020 [8 favorites]
Also, another giveaway that something was up with this passage is the use of sapphire. Somehow "almost all" of this character's dyes required sapphires? That sounds... expensive. Plus, I dunno if you can even make a dye from sapphires?
Even better! You can make emery cloth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emery_cloth
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:49 PM on August 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
Even better! You can make emery cloth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emery_cloth
Emery cloth is a type of coated abrasive that has emery glued to a cloth backing. It is used for hand metalworking. It may be sold in sheets or in narrow rolls, typically 25 or 50 mm wide, often described as "emery tape". The cloth backing makes emery cloth stronger in tension than sandpaper, but still allows a sheet to be conveniently torn to size."Honey, have you seen my sapphire pendant? Also, what's with this really gritty dress?"
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:49 PM on August 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
Like if an author tried to give a minor character a name stolen from Star Wars, it's the editor's fault if a character named "Luke Skywalker" slips through, but I'm not as sure about "Temiri Blagg".
I dunno how more professional editors do it, but Google everything I'm not familiar with. Block quote? Finding the source, checking for typos, transcription errors. Any name, even one I'm familiar with? Googling it to check the spelling (maybe they were a Jon not a John or whatever). Any historical assertion? Google to check that it's at least plausible if it's not the kind of thing where you can look for a definitive answer.
So yes, a good editor would and should have caught this. But a good editor wouldn't want to work with this kind of dross. The pain of working with awful awful text (and not being able to fix everything in it, because I can't and shouldn't rewrite their entire text for them) is why it's only a sideline I do for a few actually decent non-fiction writers anymore.
posted by Dysk at 9:20 PM on August 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
I dunno how more professional editors do it, but Google everything I'm not familiar with. Block quote? Finding the source, checking for typos, transcription errors. Any name, even one I'm familiar with? Googling it to check the spelling (maybe they were a Jon not a John or whatever). Any historical assertion? Google to check that it's at least plausible if it's not the kind of thing where you can look for a definitive answer.
So yes, a good editor would and should have caught this. But a good editor wouldn't want to work with this kind of dross. The pain of working with awful awful text (and not being able to fix everything in it, because I can't and shouldn't rewrite their entire text for them) is why it's only a sideline I do for a few actually decent non-fiction writers anymore.
posted by Dysk at 9:20 PM on August 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
That is some epic trolling bokoblining right there
posted by oulipian at 9:36 PM on August 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by oulipian at 9:36 PM on August 4, 2020 [5 favorites]
ALL of this aside, using the word "shroom", a drug-culture neologism which a cursory Google search tells me originated in the 1970s, in a historical fiction (or even fantasy!) novel set in the 400s is a great way to wreck any semblance of atmosphere that you may have managed to create.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:48 AM on August 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 6:48 AM on August 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
For all those asking where the editor was in this - I can confirm that even when you point this shit out to authors, usually they will choose to ignore you.
This has been really enlightening actually. So for bestselling authors the process really is write a book, editor wastes their time, author throws out the editors comments literally without reading them, publisher goes ahead and publishes it anyway?
posted by muddgirl at 7:37 AM on August 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
This has been really enlightening actually. So for bestselling authors the process really is write a book, editor wastes their time, author throws out the editors comments literally without reading them, publisher goes ahead and publishes it anyway?
posted by muddgirl at 7:37 AM on August 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
Also y'all keep going "all this aside" like we can just set aside the fact that Octoroks were treated like a real living animal that exists.
posted by muddgirl at 7:38 AM on August 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 7:38 AM on August 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
No, he's a Spider-man villain. You're thinking of Cop Rock.
That’s a 90s TV show. You’re thinking of Yacht Rock.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 3:49 PM on August 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
That’s a 90s TV show. You’re thinking of Yacht Rock.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 3:49 PM on August 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
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posted by ominous_paws at 8:46 AM on August 4, 2020 [21 favorites]