Trump Tests Positive for the Coronavirus
October 2, 2020 2:36 AM Subscribe

Yes indeed, Trump tests positive for the Coronavirus

The “October surprise” is here

Trump and first lady Melania test positive for coronavirus

The president’s infection means he will need to cancel in-person events in the coming weeks

El presidente Donald Trump y la primera dama dan positivo por covid-19 y se ponen en cuarentena

Jetzt kommt es auf Trumps Immunsystem an

posted by bertran (2952 comments total) 96 users marked this as a favorite

@carolecadwalla on Twitter:

A reminder to all Americans that the net effect of our prime minister catching COVID-19 was that it prompted a surge of patriotic support. From which he emerged with renewed popularity. Which enabled him to tear up key functions of the state
…
It also silenced press & parliament at key moment in crisis from asking critical questions. And when it was announced he was moving to intensive care was moment of national shock. Everything about this is rocket fuel for ‘patriotism’
posted by popcassady at 2:40 AM on October 2, 2020 [89 favorites]

From another Guardian article:

...a 74-year-old person who catches the disease has a 1 in 25 risk of death...

Dixon said mild symptoms at onset were not an indicator that someone would avoid more severe disease. He said it was around the one-week mark where people either seemed to improve or decline rapidly.

“We tend to see people with very mild symptoms for the first week, that is typical, and in the second week typically people either develop pneumonia or not,” he said.

“If you see someone who just got it, they’ve just tested positive, typically they look well. But we would tell those patients to isolate at home and to come to hospital if they feel short of breath. Because in that second week of the virus, people can go from looking very good to pretty rotten even over just 24 to 48 hours.

posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:45 AM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

Though it's worth noting, in response to Carole Cadwalla's assertion Matt Singh points out that polling doesn't reflect this popular narrative.
posted by tomp at 2:47 AM on October 2, 2020 [56 favorites]

It is what it is.
posted by KillaSeal at 2:50 AM on October 2, 2020 [109 favorites]

Given the reports from his previous medical checkups, I would want confirmation from a trusted third party. While he certainly could have it, just saying he has it takes a lot of oxygen away from his campaign woes.

No decent person would fake having a serious illness for personal gain, but if there’s one guy who hasn’t earned the benefit of the doubt, it’s him.
posted by cardboard at 2:51 AM on October 2, 2020 [120 favorites]

Ah, discussion of this topic had already begun on the First Presidential Debate thread.
posted by bertran at 2:56 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

The logic by which only the dumbest possible outcome is possible dictates that Joe Biden will also get it and they will both be unconscious and intubated on election day like a pair of geriatric Lenny Belardos, beautiful motionless boys, side by side and holding hands while nation prays. But for what?
posted by atrazine at 2:58 AM on October 2, 2020 [78 favorites]

As much as I am momentarily enjoying the schadenfreude for the moment, it really does throw such a crazy wrench into the works... Even if he magically recovers in a few days it is going to have more effect than Woodward’s interviews that everyone made a think about.

2020 keeps on giving in many, many strange horrible ways...
posted by rambling wanderlust at 3:01 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

Sheesh, not even a competent germaphobe.
posted by Paragon at 3:04 AM on October 2, 2020 [89 favorites]

More like coronavirus has tested positive for Donald Trump.
posted by GeorgeBickham at 3:08 AM on October 2, 2020 [257 favorites]

He can't die, that would leave the fascism question unanswered. He has to to be voted out in an election, or at the very least removed in a coup after trying to nuke Glasgow, for the US to move forwards.
posted by CynicalKnight at 3:09 AM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

I just had a day-mare where either Trump is lying about having COVID or he does have it and recovers, but it helps him tremendously because he goes around saying "LOOK! The DOW dropped 400 points the second they thought I was going away! The economy needs me!" and a bunch of dum dums believe him.
posted by WeekendJen at 3:11 AM on October 2, 2020 [18 favorites]

yeah nah somehow I doubt this is a repeat of the bone spurs thing
posted by um at 3:13 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

This is how bad things have gotten for me. When I heard this, I immediately assumed this was a ploy for him to loudly and publicly appear to take a vaccine that miraculously works and is available to all before the election. And it's from his big buddy Vlad.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:13 AM on October 2, 2020 [51 favorites]

DNC Offices: Okay guys! We've been sitting on these Melania tapes since July. Nothing really big on them but they have Melania saying "fuck" in the same sentence as Christmas decorations. Oh? Yeah no she thinks the Christmas decorations are meaningless and wants to focus on the actual news. Yeah, yeah doesn't matter, she said fuck Christmas decorations basically. Well I guess she could come off as sympathetic and she seems to genuinely care about the kids and care for her husband but we're kinda clueless over here, hey she says fuck and Christmas in the same breath. Okay so we'll launch it after the debate stuff dies down CNN is all ready to launch it tonight, perfect timing before the weekend news cycle. Alright sit back and ... what? Hope Hicks got Covid? She's still around? Oh what, well they test Trump all the time so it'd have to be a super spreader type thing or the latency period of the ... what doesn't he have a 15 minute test? Okay well if he has it we have to smirk while saying we hope it is a false positive. Oh what? Boris Johnson got a boost in popularity? This might humanize Trump? Now? Are you fucking kidding me? He's losing by historic numbers. Well what about Pence and Kamala? Oh man he has to quarantine too! She's the youth! Oh no it is 2016 all over again!
posted by geoff. at 3:16 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

a big relief during this moment is the absence of all those people who pipe up at times like this with sanctimonious finger-wagging about how "even if he's a monster you shouldn't delight in the misfortunes of others, it makes you just as bad as he is". Fuck. All. Of. That.

feel what you need to feel. be as joyful as you want to be and don't be ashamed: you'll never be anywhere remotely as bad as him and his supporters are. I hope he suffers, recovers, loses the election by a historic landslide, and immediately faces prosecution for his crimes.
posted by um at 3:26 AM on October 2, 2020 [196 favorites]

I hope recovers so he can serve two full terms. The first in federal prison and then the second in NY state prison.
posted by atrazine at 3:30 AM on October 2, 2020 [215 favorites]

I'm imagning part of the speech where he continues to blame Hope's affection for men in uniform. Trump: "And this very tough general, big guy, came up to me, in tears, and said "Sir, you are so magnificent. Thank you for giving us all Hope sir".
posted by srboisvert at 3:38 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

"Looks like RBG successfully argued her first hearing with the lord"
posted by Jilder at 3:39 AM on October 2, 2020 [119 favorites]

Matt Singh points out that polling doesn't reflect this popular narrative.

Singh's poll does not necessarily contradict Cadwalladr's assertion. It's a bit misleading of him to suggest so. He shows an opinion poll of political parties, and not the popularity of their respective leaders. These are two separate entities — and questions — and a popular leader can do more to push their agenda, even with a less popular parliamentary government behind them.

Cadwalladr has been persecuted by proxies for her reporting of Russian interference in UK politics, so I'm inclined to take her views seriously when she reports on the public's response to autocrats. Her view also aligns with how family members in the UK responded to Johnson's illness, so for lack of an actual poll on the matter, I'd probably give more weight to her informed opinion.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:40 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Mentioned in other thread - this isn’t a hoax. This is a moral allegory.

He is also a well-known Germaphobe. I hope he is afraid. In many ways this is his worst nightmare. A year ago he thought we would be talking about the unemployment rate.
posted by The Ted at 3:41 AM on October 2, 2020 [19 favorites]

Having the person who supposedly gave him the virus be named after one of his predecessor's campaign slogans is a bit on the nose, don't you think?
posted by acb at 3:42 AM on October 2, 2020 [60 favorites]

Yesterday was my birthday. Spent it enjoying the peak leaf color with mr kinnakeet. As the full moon rose, I was asked for my birthday wish.

I could not think of much to wish for as we are fortunate, but I did wish “that the pandemic end soon.” Then as an afterthought muttered, “I wish Trump would get sick.” Sort of half-wristslapped myself for having uncharitable thoughts.

You can imagine my reaction this morning.
posted by kinnakeet at 3:48 AM on October 2, 2020 [121 favorites]

I really don't care. Do you?
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:52 AM on October 2, 2020 [161 favorites]

This is weird. I never felt sympathy for a virus before.
posted by johnofjack at 3:53 AM on October 2, 2020 [42 favorites]

The sad part is that, even if Trump really is sick, everything he has done up to day-zero of getting himself infected has still killed hundreds of thousands and will still sicken and kill yet more. Whatever happens, he's fucked up the lives of millions of innocent people. Nothing changes about that.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:56 AM on October 2, 2020 [49 favorites]

Matt Singh points out that polling doesn't reflect this popular narrative.

Singh's poll does not necessarily contradict Cadwalladr's assertion.

Singh's thread does point out that Johnson and the Tories had a higher approval rating than Labour in the first place. An approval rating well above Trump's best.

So for all that Johnson and Trump are political birds of a feather, I have serious doubts that it's useful to use the UK situation as a predictor for the US now - the initial conditions are too different.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:01 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

Singh's poll does not necessarily contradict Cadwalladr's assertion. It's a bit misleading of him to suggest so. He shows an opinion poll of political parties, and not the popularity of their respective leaders. These are two separate entities — and questions — and a popular leader can do more to push their agenda, even with a less popular parliamentary government behind them.

His personal approval was higher on the 13th of April than on the 16th of March but that isn't polled as often as the party data. Note that a lot happened during that time so it's completely impossible to know why this was. The 16th was right after Vallance foolishly used the words "herd immunity" in a press interview and before any lockdown measures were announced, the 13th of April was a few days after critical care bed occupancy peaked and after new hospital admissions in London had peaked.

Certainly people felt genuinely worried in a way that maybe they didn't expect but:
-This was much earlier in the pandemic. As dumb as it was it to go around shaking hands in March, a lot of people were just realising how serious it really was. Obviously a PM should have known better but it's not like he'd spent months minimising it in the face of all the evidence. I'm not sure that Donald Trump will get the same leeway at the point in the pandemic after months and months of denial.
-Boris Johnson is not as deeply nor as widely hated by his political opponents as Donald Trump is. Obviously he's not a suitable person to be Prime Minister but he strikes me more as a flawed and egotistical blunderer who you put in as club social secretary (but not as treasurer) than Donald Trump who is unpleasant on every level.

Cadwalladr has been persecuted by proxies for her reporting of Russian interference in UK politics, so I'm inclined to take her views seriously when she reports on the public's response to autocrats. Her view also aligns with how family members in the UK responded to Johnson's illness, so for lack of an actual poll on the matter, I'd probably give more weight to her informed opinion.

I don't think this makes any sense. She reports on Putin and on attempts by Russia to interfere with British elections and the referendum, therefore... she has some special insight into how the British public reacted to Boris Johnson getting Covid-19?
posted by atrazine at 4:03 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

What both Trump and Johnson do have in common is an apparent belief that sickness is a sign of weakness. It's shameful and unmanly for a strongman to fall ill. I'm not sure that Johnson's confidence and perceived standing has quite recovered from his illness, regardless of his physical recovery.
posted by GeorgeBickham at 4:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

Johnson's more of a flim-flam man than a strongman. He has the hauteur of the born-to-rule aristocracy, but the difference between him and 45 is that, while his cruelty is mostly a negative, an absence of concern for the “little people” except where instrumentally useful, 45's is a positive, atavistic bloodthirst.

A better analogue to look at might be Bolsonaro. How's he doing with his coronavirus?
posted by acb at 4:17 AM on October 2, 2020 [27 favorites]

This kinda throws a wrench in Trump being God's chosen vehicle for the prosperity gospel types. Most of them will have no trouble rationalizing it, but it may make some difference at the margins.
posted by wierdo at 4:19 AM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Thoughts and prayers, right?
posted by cheshyre at 4:21 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

To elaborate, in my Mom's Southern Baptist church, it was commonly believed, and said out loud to her face despite her illness, that getting sick only happens because God thinks you deserve it.
posted by wierdo at 4:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [72 favorites]

If this is actually an October Surprise, perhaps it is being played as a bluff. In this scenario he does not actually have the virus, and 'recovers' swiftly and fully, thereby validating his lackadaisical position with his followers, just in time for voting day.

If this was a conspiracy, and somehow the leakiest white house in history managed to keep it a secret, then it couldn't possibly be Trump's idea or have Trump's approval.

Trump is a textbook narcissist and for those of us who know narcissists he has never once done something surprising. A narcissist wouldn't do this because (a) even catching the virus shows that he is weak, not the Healthiest Man of All Time, and (b) it cuts off his narcissistic supply (the adoration of screaming sycophants) for two weeks.

You'll know it's a bluff if Trump calls the bluff himself in order to get attention in the next two weeks.
posted by mmoncur at 4:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [44 favorites]

I'm worried that if Trump is incapacitated, the entire country will be plunged into stability.
posted by yankeefog at 4:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [286 favorites]

See, this is why he didn't want his tax returns publicized.
posted by glonous keming at 4:23 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I feel bad for the New York Times, they have five more shocking articles with damning details from Trump's tax returns ready to publish and nobody's going to notice them at the bottom of Page 7.
posted by mmoncur at 4:25 AM on October 2, 2020 [38 favorites]

If only he hadn't been tested.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:26 AM on October 2, 2020 [92 favorites]

Sooooo when are we getting our reassurance about Biden being negative?
posted by WeekendJen at 4:28 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

I feel relieved for my state. He was all set to come here and have a bunch of rallies, including one in a part of the state that is spiking very badly. I presume those won't be happening now. The COVID-19 Event Risk Assessment Planner tells me that in that part of the state, if you get even ten people in a room together, chances are one of them will be SARS-CoV-2+.

The faith of my youth, now vestigial, tells me I should feel something for our president that I simply can't. I can only have utilitarian thoughts: what outcome stands the best chance of helping my country to extricate itself from the grip of its domestic abuser?
posted by eirias at 4:30 AM on October 2, 2020 [36 favorites]

Probably the most accurate reaction: there are so many different factors in play, there's no predicting which way this will go.

Second reaction: I'm reminded of John McCain pulling himself out of the 2008 campaign briefly. I don't think he ever gained ground back from that.

Third reaction: Removing Trump from the day-to-day operations of his campaign might allow marginally competent people, if any are left in his inner circle, to make decisions on his behalf. This might not be good.

Fourth reaction: Return to the first reaction--who the hell knows?
posted by gimonca at 4:31 AM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Regardless of his subsequent policy response, BoJo appeared after his recovery with a message of being humbled by his experience and grateful to the nation's healthcare workers, with a renewed sense of mission and plucky British optimism in the face of real adversity. You know, like a completely reasonable politician would do.

I'm more than half expecting Trump to fully recover and tell the nation on live TV it was entirely due to his immense personal strength, which is so much stronger than the 200k+ losers who couldn't kick the China virus, and by the way, they would all still be alive if it weren't for Obamacare and its a shame, but probably for the best because survival of the fittest, that's what Darwin said.
posted by voiceofreason at 4:31 AM on October 2, 2020 [52 favorites]

A potential complicator here that I don't see anyone talking about is that Johnson seemed to take the coronavirus a lot more seriously after he got it than he was before, so any change in personal approval might well be down to "the blonde dipshit is finally taking things seriously".
posted by Merus at 4:32 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

And I see voiceofreason ninja'd my point, eponysterically.
posted by Merus at 4:33 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

I'm worried that if Trump is incapacitated, the entire country will be plunged into stability.

This is sarcasm, right? 'Cause no one looks at Trump and thinks, "now there's someone who's a real stabilizing force on the US"? Just, it doesn't have the "/hamburger" and this presidency has somewhat broken my sarcasm meter.
posted by eviemath at 4:33 AM on October 2, 2020

Oh, never mind. Reading fail.
posted by eviemath at 4:34 AM on October 2, 2020 [32 favorites]

Trump Just Delivered the Ultimate October Surprise
posted by robbyrobs at 4:35 AM on October 2, 2020

The President Contracting COVID-19 Is A Major National Security Crisis
posted by robbyrobs at 4:36 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

The words “Contracting COVID-19” are redundant.
posted by acb at 4:38 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

As someone who's been living through events in the UK, Cadwalladr's assertion about Johnson's popularity going up after diagnosis didn't and doesn't ring true to me. When he was diagnosed, and especially when he was hospitalized, it was a bit of an "oh, shit" moment, and we all had "what if he dies" thoughts, but generally people didn't wish it on him—we saw nothing like the dark humour that's all over Twitter right now. But that didn't mean that everyone was suddenly going to fall in love with his policies and general Boris-ness. Anyone making patriotic "Boris Will Fight Covid on the Beaches" noises would have been one of his supporters anyway.
posted by rory at 4:41 AM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

The words “Contracting COVID-19” are redundant.

COVID-19 is going to find out he never pays his contractors.
posted by gimonca at 4:42 AM on October 2, 2020 [94 favorites]

I have to confess I'm curious to see the spin that "QAnon" puts on this.
posted by Slothrup at 4:51 AM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

Johnson's more of a flim-flam man than a strongman. He has the hauteur of the born-to-rule aristocracy, but the difference between him and 45 is that, while his cruelty is a purely negative absence of concern for the “little people” except where instrumentally useful, 45's is a positive, atavistic bloodthirst.

This is a common perception but it is not quite right. Unlike David Cameron, Boris Johnson is not born to rule. I wish I could find it because it was such an accurate description of class micro-structure but years ago I read an opinion piece on the difference between the relative class positions of Clegg (remember that guy?), Cameron, and Johnson.

David Cameron, who went to Eton and paid full fees, sits right at the very top of the upper middle class where it blends into the lower reaches of the aristocracy. Everything about him, his easy smoothness, his unbreakable self confidence, his deep sense that he should be in charge comes from that background.

It is significant that Johnson went to Eton on a scholarship (don't think that the other boys won't have known that), that his father was an MEP (not quite the thing). He has always been desperate to be the centre of attention, to be liked, to be seen to be a certain kind of person. Can you really imagine David Cameron (who got a first) being upset if he'd gotten a 2:1 as Johnson did? I can't. Boris Johnson is an act, he plays a parody of an English aristocrat which is a heightened version of boys he went to school with and whose ease and genuine pedigree he desperately wants for himself.

Clegg sits a little bit outside the conventional English class system because of his European ancestry, his multilingualism, his fundamentally internationalist outlook. Of course he now works for Facebook.

I don't doubt that Cameron and Johnson both have a sort of disdain for "little people" but in Cameron's case it is a sort of vaguely curious paternalism, like he doesn't quite understand what these people are thinking but of course you have to be polite and look out for their best interests. Johnson has a much more active desire to be loved by as many people as possible. I also agree that Trump's attitude is more actively cruel and blood thirsty.
posted by atrazine at 4:51 AM on October 2, 2020 [45 favorites]

They're both going to get better, he's going to insist it proves he's strong and the virus isn't a big deal, and then it will come out in a year that he was on the ropes and nearly died and hid it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:01 AM on October 2, 2020 [16 favorites]

I truly hope he recovers so he can experience all the horrible effects of covid that he has denied that others are experiencing. Here's hoping that his remaining years are bleak and painful.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 5:05 AM on October 2, 2020 [42 favorites]

BRB, gotta sacrifice a third chicken, this one for Mike Pence.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:05 AM on October 2, 2020 [60 favorites]

Looks like the Pences tested negative, so at least the country isn’t going to be a complete cluster fuck over the weekend.
posted by sideshow at 5:11 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Looks like the Pences tested negative, so at least the country isn’t going to be a complete cluster fuck over the weekend.

Wellll...Remember, the guy rules by tweet. Isolation≠Out of the loop. If anything, this will just make him double-down on the royal edicts and proclamations, just to make sure everyone knows he's still in command. So, I'd look for the weekend to be a cluster-cluster-fuck.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:15 AM on October 2, 2020 [16 favorites]

To add: Schadenfreude is fun at all, but it does none of us any good if the first two of rungs of our country’s leadership go onto ventilators leading up to election night. You think the QAnon crazies are insane now, wait until President Pelolsi gets sworn in on like Nov 1st.
posted by sideshow at 5:17 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

I just hope he doesn't Karma Houdini his way out of this one and never ever have one symptom and be perfectly fine forever. Which I am absolutely expecting the way 2020 is going.

Though it is heartening that they were forced to admit this, because you know they never would have had they had any ability to hide it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:17 AM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

I mean more of the actual civil war sort of cluster fuck. Not the usual “mean tweets” form we are used to.
posted by sideshow at 5:18 AM on October 2, 2020

I didn't watch the debate. Did Trump and Biden shake hands?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:19 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Looks like the Pences tested negative, so at least the country isn’t going to be a complete cluster fuck over the weekend.

But it can take up to 14 days after exposure to test positive, right? There's still time for a complete cluster fuck.
posted by carolr at 5:20 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

I didn't watch the debate. Did Trump and Biden shake hands?

No.
posted by valkane at 5:20 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

I read "Trump contracted coronavirus" and my first thought was "what kind of kickbacks did it offer him"

deep breaths, deep breaths, get the poison out
posted by phooky at 5:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [33 favorites]

There was a lot of shouting and spitting though right? 😷
posted by Braeburn at 5:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

It's like the writers knew this fuckkking shitshow wouldn't get renewed another season and are just blowing everything up for the finale.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [54 favorites]

There was a lot of shouting and spitting though right? 😷

Like two llamas at a blowjob competition.
posted by atrazine at 5:31 AM on October 2, 2020 [64 favorites]

So, this raises a question: What if a presidential candidate dies before the election? What are the possible scenarios?
posted by LSK at 5:32 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I wonder if he was still taking the prophylactic hydroxychloroquine he talked about back in April and May? I think one of the more ironic things about this situation is that in 2016 and this election, Trump and his followers made a big deal about the supposed poor health of his opponent, while at the same time saying as little as possible about his own health (other than that he is apparently the healthiest person who has ever lived.). Now for the next two weeks or so, his health will be dominating the news.
posted by TedW at 5:33 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

If it results in the cancellation of further debates, my digestion benefits, but unfortunately so does the guy who made obvious his inability to do anything but bellow and interrupt.
posted by homerica at 5:38 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

If it results in the cancellation of further debates, my digestion benefits, but unfortunately so does the guy who made obvious his inability to do anything but bellow and interrupt.

Zoom CEO gets on the phone with both campaign chiefs to pitch an idea...
posted by Thorzdad at 5:41 AM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

I'll believe it when they jam a ventilator down his throat, and maybe not even then. He just wants to get out of the remaining debates.
posted by lordrunningclam at 5:42 AM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

an announcement which is bound to throw the Presidential race into a state of grave uncertainty, if not chaos.

As if "grave uncertainty" wasn't the entire theme of this race from before day 1.
posted by Foosnark at 5:42 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

man fuck em all. can't even make myself care if it's real or they're lying, they just need to shut the hell up, man.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:43 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

It looks like 16 members of congress have tested positive. All are apparently recovering. Two of them (Mike Kelly and Raul Grijalva) are roughly Trump’s age.
posted by lazugod at 5:44 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

When Hope Hicks tested positive for COVID-19 on Thursday morning, the White House should have notified those she had been in contact with, and Trump should have quarantined himself. Instead they tried to keep it a secret, and Trump went to an indoor fundraiser in New Jersey, and didn’t wear a mask. Now he has tested positive. That is how little Donald Trump cares about the lives of other human beings, even those who give him money.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:44 AM on October 2, 2020 [161 favorites]

...to be clear, I mean tested positive this year. No relation to the current event.
posted by lazugod at 5:45 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

I’m not normally one to revel in another’s misfortune, but I told my wife months ago that if this pandemic ends without that fucker ever getting sick there was no justice in the world.

This is honestly my first real moment of hope and joy in a long time. I’m going to have a good day I believe.
posted by caution live frogs at 5:47 AM on October 2, 2020 [40 favorites]

Slothrup, wait no longer. They think it's all part of the plan.
posted by Naberius at 5:47 AM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

Sooooo torn. I would want him to die immediately, if it wasn't for the delicious possibility of seeing him go down to electoral defeat, removal from office, and a humiliating trial. It would be very appropriate if he died of the same thing he used to murder over 200K of his fellow citizens.
posted by ivanthenotsoterrible at 5:50 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Whew, mixed feelings, surprisingly.

Hearing analysts and articles saying things like, "If he can get it, anyone can!" ... well, yeah, if you don't actually treat it like a highly contagious disease and don't wear a mask and say Biden is a dork for wearing one and hold rallies to stoke your ego. Sure. If you act like a fool and are supremely ignorant, sure.

The doctor who announced this is the same who gave him the go for hydroxychloroquine. T has gotten so good at lying about things and throwing up smokescreens that even something like this can't be necessarily seen as a completely true thing - especially with a disastrous debate, the Times tax reports, the slowing "recovery", the lack of stimulus package, and bad polls all with bad news for him. He's been cornered for weeks, months. Withdrawing feels like a natural strategy for someone of his ilk.

So we're in yet another layer of "who knows how things will go" and another layer of uncertainty tossed into the things that we rely on in our lives and in our society to feel stable and, to a degree, safe. If we hadn't been juggling hundreds of other things up until this point, it would be quite different. Trump could recover. Trump could say he recovers, go out, and infect more people. Trump could debate via satellite. Trump could not debate at all and complain about it. He could tweet policies for the next two weeks that upend everything. He could turn things over to Pence. He could die. He could become fully incapacitated by Election Day. He could be fine.

In the meantime, we all continue to suffer.
posted by hijinx at 5:51 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

At this point I don't care how it's done as long as he gets out of office and millions don't keep dying specifically because of his behavior.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:51 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

***Trepidatiously opens Flap #2 of my October Surprise Advent Calendar***
posted by reclusive_thousandaire at 5:53 AM on October 2, 2020 [256 favorites]

If he dies and fails to reemerge, completely unharmed, with a basket of Luciferian globalist child-slavers' heads as trophies, the narrative might bifurcate. Some will claim that Soros had him poisoned, and undoubtedly start taking matters into their own hands. To others, he might become something like King Arthur or the Shi'ites Hidden Imam: watching, biding his time and ready to return when the moment is right. A hundred years on, huckster cult leaders may claim to be the current manifestation of Donald Trump.
posted by acb at 5:54 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

I have no hope of this doing anything other than guaranteeing him another four years, nothing sticks to him.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 5:55 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Maybe this will convince some MAGA-heads that coronavirus is real. And, being even more hopeful, maybe it will help cancel some super-spreader events. (at least it will cancel some of his immediately forthcoming rallies)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:55 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

(Stolen from reddit comments)

He's in several high risk groups, elderly, obese, low income.

I wonder why they suspected COVID? He's always lacked taste.
posted by smcameron at 5:56 AM on October 2, 2020 [47 favorites]

Nah. His supporters are cooking up a new conspiracy about it right now.
posted by cazoo at 5:57 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

It's kind of remarkable that he's getting it only now.

I hope that if one debate gets cancelled, they'll let the one that's left be a town-hall format (what the second debate, which will be either cancelled or postponed, was supposed to be).

I'm full of misgivings about all the possible ways this will be spun, but I still can't help feeling schadenfreude. May he and his enablers get to actually feel, in their bodies, a little piece of what they've made others go through.
posted by trig at 6:00 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Nah. His supporters are cooking up a new conspiracy about it right now.

His supporters? No, at the moment, his enemies are doing all the legwork ginning up conspiracy theories. His dullard supporters can just steal the best ones once his far more creative enemies are done.
posted by davros42 at 6:03 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Not sure I believe trump has covid. Awfully convenient excuse for no more debates and shutting him up until the election. And he can emerge saying I’m fine, the virus is just a bad cold, no biggie blah blah blah
posted by robbyrobs at 6:03 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

An anagram of

POTUS, Trump Has Covid

is

Sociopath Drums Up TV
posted by lalochezia at 6:05 AM on October 2, 2020 [52 favorites]

Has biden tested negative since the debate?
posted by Chrysopoeia at 6:05 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

This doesn’t feel like the sort of lie he is constantly compelled to be telling because it is not immediately ego-gratifying but it does amuse me to imagine him making feeble fake coughs like Dereck Zoolander does after he goes in a coal mine for thirty seconds and thinks he caught black lung.
posted by aubilenon at 6:05 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

This actually made me forget about the Twins miserable performance in the playoffs for a bit. Thanks, Corona!

I have to imagine that, as a germphobe, he's probably stressed the fuck out even if he doesn't have a strong case of it. I feel bad for his doctors. He's got to be the worst patient in the world.

He was also recently in Minnesota schmoozing with our fine state's biggest jerks (Gazelka, Lewis, etc). I hope they're all consumed with worry.
posted by Gray Duck at 6:06 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

I would call it a karmic what-goes-around-comes-around but it’s so, so very dangerous for the nation and for the election for our unhealthy President to die while ballots are being cast. Goodness knows what QAnon et al. will do with it. It is going around and coming around on all of us.

This stupid, stupid man.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:08 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

Well, that was disappointing.
posted by Slothrup at 6:09 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

when I saw this news this morning, MeFi was the first place I came. Thanks all and although I'm not a big fan of schadenfreude HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:11 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

QAnon Believers Think Trump Got COVID On Purpose
posted by robbyrobs at 6:11 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

I'm half-expecting angry tweets from him about how they're refusing to give him hydroxychloroquine.
posted by NMcCoy at 6:11 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I am hopeful, but between Bolsonaro's recovery and Kissinger's seemingly eternal life, evil people never actually get what they deserve.
posted by Ouverture at 6:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

So, the bad news is that he's probably going to be fine. He and the people around him are tested regularly so this was caught early. He'll be getting the best medical care, presumably including convalescent plasma and other treatments. Chances are good that he'll make a full recovery with minimal symptoms. I'd hold some schadenfreude in reserve until he's on a ventilator.

But the frequent, widespread testing of himself and his close associates is something he has prevented and undermined in the general population. Everyone should be keeping in mind that the factors he has in his favor are things he has worked to deny the general public. We should remind everyone of this loudly and frequently even before he recovers.
posted by Reverend John at 6:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [55 favorites]

So apparently at the debate the Trumps all came into the venue in facemasks and promptly whipped the masks off and left them off for the duration of the shitshow. The beaming freshfaced first lady congratulating her husband at the conclusion contrasted beautifully with wee sleekit timorous nonsupermodel Jill Biden cowering behind her mask. I've heard and heard and heard this morning about the contact tracing strategy for Trump; is anybody thinking about Melania and the rest of his maskless entourage?
posted by Don Pepino at 6:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Has biden tested negative since the debate?

From the NYT: As of Friday morning, Mr. Biden, 77, was expected to be tested later in the day, according to someone familiar with his plans.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Here’s what I don’t want to happen: Trump gets a m ild case, recovers quickly, and doubles down on “Coronavirus is a hoax!” Then, he guts whatever meager measures the feds are undertaking and convinces red state governors to do the same. Then, numbers explode just as he’s contesting election results, and he gets re-appointed through Supreme Court fuckery.

Rather, I want him to get sick. Like, “I wish I would die” sick. Only to recover in time to decisively lose the election and be forced to spend the rest of his life dealing with criminal prosecutions and the inexorable withering of his personal fortune.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 6:13 AM on October 2, 2020 [67 favorites]

Wow, Trump's announcement tweet ends with the word TOGETHER = TO GET HER = he's saying Hillary's going to be arrested any minute now. QAnon believers never disappoint.
posted by Epixonti at 6:13 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

He doesn't have a personal fortune; he has 9-figure debts coming due to some very nasty people. A supermax cell may well be the safest place for him.
posted by acb at 6:15 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

I'll believe it when they jam a ventilator down his throat, and maybe not even then. He just wants to get out of the remaining debates

Not sure I believe trump has covid. Awfully convenient excuse for no more debates and shutting him up until the election.

*Sigh.* C'mon, folks.

Yes, Trump lies a lot about everything all the time. But his lies are always always always in service to his massive narcissistic ego. So in the first place it would be far more likely that he would deny having it no matter what, because he can't appear weak.

If he was faking it for some nefarious reason, he would be holding a press conference RIGHT FUCKING NOW at 9 am EST, bravely hacking and coughing and sniffling his way through a statement that no matter his health he would be heroically soldiering on with Making America Great and preventing the suburbs from being taken over by Black people and fixing Obamacare.

The fact that this was announced AT ONE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING by a memo to the press from his physician is a sign that this is real and whatever few semi-responsible semi-adults remain in this administration went, "oh fuck. We have a real problem here."
posted by soundguy99 at 6:16 AM on October 2, 2020 [103 favorites]

Random thoughts/anxieties about this:

1) Mike Pence or really any other Republican is more than capable of continuing the decades long Republican scheme of packing the courts with conservative ideolouges and passing laws aimed at voter suppression and union busting.
2) Mike Pence or any other Republican might be more likely to listen to the GOP foreign policy hawks who want to start WWIII and are currently the "never Trump Republicans".
3) Trump will get better medical care than 99.999 percent of the people on this planet, so he'll probably be fine, unlike many Americans in our deeply unequal and racist two-tier healthcare system that even the proposed Democrat reforms won't ameliorate.
4) If Trump survives, true believer/MAGA/prosperity gospel types will take it as confirmation Trump is chosen by god and/or the coronavirus is a hoax/not serious
5) Biden and Trump expelled a lot of hot air at each other during the debate. Was Biden tested?
6) I don't like the prospects of a Harris versus Pence race.
posted by eagles123 at 6:16 AM on October 2, 2020 [16 favorites]

The way I read it that makes COVID the ONLY topic that will be mentioned together with his name for the next 2 weeks, which is not what he wants. Unless it's a fake out and he pretends to have a miraculous 'cure', I guess.
posted by signal at 6:17 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

To try and be as calm as possible about this - while there are many stranger, more unsettling scenarios, it seems to me that the most likely outcome is that Trump may become ill but will almost certainly pull through. Even though he's at risk, the raw numbers are still on his side, especially considering his access to top tier medical care. This is a good thing. A President dying or becoming incapacitated in office - and the ensuing fear, conspiracy, and unrest - would bring an additional level of uncertainty and chaos into an already volatile election. That is the last thing anyone in this country needs. We should all be hoping this passes quickly - not because we want to stake out the moral high ground, but because what is good for the President right now is good for the country as a whole.

In terms of karma, it has already been reaped. It is bad for a Presidential candidate not to be able to campaign in the final two weeks before election day; there's no way that getting out of the debates, or 'changing the narrative' can offset that blow. Mostly, now, I'm just hoping that the Bidens and other people in high level political circles (Pelosi, even Pence) remain negative. We need a relatively smooth election and a peaceful transfer of power, with a minimum of chaos. Any further karmic retribution can wait until after election day.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 6:19 AM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

"This is critical. The White House didn’t disclose this. Jennifer Jacobs got the story that Hicks had covid, something the White House had apparently known since the previous day. That put all eyes on the President." -- Josh Marshall on twitter.
posted by valkane at 6:20 AM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

Can he use one of those little oxygen wheelie carts in his cell at ADX Florence? Or does that stay in the guard shack, and he has a really long line running down the hall to his mask?
posted by wenestvedt at 6:20 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

From CNN
Trump campaign did not alert Biden campaign of possible exposure

From The HIll
Biden to get tested Friday morning following Trump's positive test

---
The Hill report is timestamped 8:21 AM and I couldn't find any later reports. fingers crossed.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Easy solution to the “rule by tweet” thing: put him and Melania in quarantine, just “accidentally” remove all the cell phone chargers from the residence. About five hours in, no more tweets.
posted by Ghidorah at 6:23 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

I just had a day-mare where either Trump is lying about having COVID or he does have it and recovers, but it helps him tremendously because he goes around saying "LOOK! The DOW dropped 400 points the second they thought I was going away! The economy needs me!" and a bunch of dum dums believe him.

Welcome to Brazil. That's basically what happened.
posted by ocschwar at 6:24 AM on October 2, 2020 [18 favorites]

Trump Went Ahead With Golf Club Fundraiser After Hicks Tested Positive (the dailybeast)
posted by bluesky43 at 6:26 AM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

Jim Acosta on Twitter: WH is doing contact tracing on people who have been in touch with Trump and Hicks over last few days, a WH official said. The official said aides are looking at ways for Trump to be out in front of cameras today.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:29 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Maggie Haberman NYT BREAKING - Ronna McDaniel, the RNC chairwoman, tested positive for the coronavirus on Wednesday, multiple sources say. She has mild symptoms. She was last with POTUS last Friday and has been in Michigan since then.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:30 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

Here’s why we should hope Trump survives his fight with COVID-19
posted by robbyrobs at 6:31 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I wonder if, at this point, he's still in control of his own medical care? What happens in this case, can he choose to take hydroxychloroquine or do various executive branch people/the secret service insist on standards of care?

If he gets really bad, does he get first dibs on semi-experimental treatments (mAb therapies)?
posted by Slackermagee at 6:32 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Trump blames cops and soldiers for Hope Hicks infection:

"Ms. Hicks also accompanied Mr. Trump to the first presidential debate against former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., the Democratic nominee, on Tuesday in Ohio. Attendance at the event was significantly scaled back to prevent the spread of the coronavirus; people familiar with the planning said that Mr. Trump had wanted people in the audience.

Speaking to Mr. Hannity, Mr. Trump appeared to blame soldiers and law enforcement officials who he said wanted to give her hugs and thank her for her work at the White House.

“She’s a very warm person,” the president said. “When soldiers and law enforcement come up to her,” he said, she does not want to reject their entreaties." -- NYT
posted by valkane at 6:33 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Right now I don’t give a fuck about strategy or decorum or anything else. I just hope he fucking suffers.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:35 AM on October 2, 2020 [41 favorites]

“She’s a very warm person,” the president said. “When soldiers and law enforcement come up to her,” he said, she does not want to reject their entreaties." -- NYT

Donald Trump said "reject their entreaties"? huh. somehow I don't think so
posted by bluesky43 at 6:36 AM on October 2, 2020 [60 favorites]

Are we sure it's COVID and not demon sperm?
posted by hydrophonic at 6:36 AM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

“______________, and a bunch of dum dums believe him” is the story of Donald Trump’s life.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:38 AM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

I'd just like to live in a world where I don't have to follow bulletins on Donald Trump's health. I'd like a world where Donald Trump's health is something that never crossed my mind at all.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 6:47 AM on October 2, 2020 [49 favorites]

Boris Johnson is 56.
Jair Bolsonaro is 65.
Donald Trump is 74.

Herman Cain was 74.
posted by valkane at 6:49 AM on October 2, 2020 [35 favorites]

Here’s why we should hope Trump survives his fight with COVID-19

Survives... yeah, okay. I want him to survive losing the election, survive a really embarrassing criminal trial, and then he can die in prison.

But he needs to not be unscathed. He needs to noticeably, obviously look and sound worse for the wear, unable to claim that it's harmless or pay doctors to lie about how incredibly fit and healthy an ubermensch he is. He needs to become an advocate for people wearing their damn masks and taking precautions. He's probably incapable of feeling shame or regret himself, but he needs to be an object lesson for others.
posted by Foosnark at 6:51 AM on October 2, 2020 [57 favorites]

Of all the outcomes, I'd prefer for him to survive with the same long-term symptoms that so many others report. You know, the kind of chronic disease that gets poo-poohed as "all in your head" so often.

I prefer that because, aside from the long-term misery he can take to prison, it may lead the press and his watchers to actually pay attention to the obvious signs we've seen all along -- the sniffling, the incoherence, the memory and cognitive slips, the intermittent lack of coordination -- and evaluate those independently from what they're told by him, the constant stream of bs about how smart and successful he is, about his mental abilities.

But my real concern is with Biden who had to share a stage with the sputtering shouting madman, and I'll be holding my breath for him for a week or two.
posted by Dashy at 6:59 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

Count me on team "this is mostly significant in that it takes him off the campaign trail for 2 of the remaining 4.5 weeks of a campaign he is already losing". The likeliest course of his illness is that he'll have a cold and he'll get better, but he'll be stuck stewing at home with his phone, yelling at Fox & Friends, desperate for eyeballs. When he gets frustrated, he does and says stupid things. So no, I don't believe in his ability to effectively channel his illness into popular sympathy.
posted by saturday_morning at 6:59 AM on October 2, 2020 [17 favorites]

> Herman Cain was 74.

Herman Cain lives on in our hearts. And on twitter.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:59 AM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

I like my governor's statement; she wishes the Trumps well and then quickly moves on to a positive call for action. That's the smart response.

https://www.michigan.gov/whitmer/0,9309,7-387-90487-541151--,00.html

"I want to start by wishing the president and first lady a speedy recovery. COVID-19 is the most dangerous public health crisis America has faced in 100 years. It is still present in our communities. It is still spreading. And people are still dying from it every single day.

"This virus doesn't care if you're rich or poor, a Republican or a Democrat, young or old. No one is immune. Not even the president.

"Here's the good news. We can beat this enemy – but it's going to take every single one of us working together to do it. Right now the most effective weapon we have is pretty simple: it's wearing a mask that covers your nose and mouth. It's washing your hands with soap and water. And maintaining six feet of physical distance from one another.

"I know this is hard. It's hard for our seniors, our parents, our students, our small businesses, and our frontline workers. This has been one of the most challenging experiences any of us has ever faced. But we must not let our guard down. We must remain vigilant. COVID-19 won't just go away because we're tired of the disruptions it has caused to our daily lives, and right now there is no cure.

"My sincere hope is that today's news will serve as a wakeup call to every single American. Right now all 50 states and the federal government have some kind of declared state of emergency. We are all in this together. Let's all do our part. Let's all mask up. And let's get through this together, as one nation."
posted by bfields at 7:01 AM on October 2, 2020 [58 favorites]

I like presidents who don't get coronavirus.
posted by amarynth at 7:02 AM on October 2, 2020 [130 favorites]

acb > A better analogue to look at might be Bolsonaro. How's he doing with his coronavirus?

Fine, unfortunately:

Political cost of coronavirus? For Brazil’s Bolsonaro, not much. COVID-19 seemed poised to dwindle support for Brazil’s President Bolsonaro, who called the pandemic a “little flu” and refused to wear a mask. Instead, he’s thriving. What’s going on?
Christian Science Monitor; Ana Ionova, Correspondent Rio De Janeiro; 9/10/2020

...[The Brazilian government's] emergency funding – which amounts to a little over half of a minimum monthly salary – has proved a lifeline for the nearly 63.5 million Brazilians who received it after having their livelihoods brought to a halt by the pandemic.

But the program, which launched in April, has also boosted the popularity of President Jair Bolsonaro to new heights. He now has his highest level of approval since taking office in early 2019, despite what many deem a catastrophic handling of the pandemic. The far-right populist is presiding over the world’s third-largest outbreak of COVID-19, which has so far infected more than 4 million Brazilians and claimed the lives of 125,000. Since the start of the pandemic, he has dismissed the threat of the virus, calling it a “little flu,” and lambasted governors who try to shut down states.

Whereas other leaders who have taken a similar approach – from the United States to Mexico – have been punished in the polls for dismissing the pandemic’s severity, Mr. Bolsonaro appears to be weathering the storm and emerging politically unscathed....

posted by cenoxo at 7:02 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

really hope he just has to go on a vent next week and stay there until january, tbh
posted by lazaruslong at 7:02 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Was the cause of death of Trump's brother, who died six weeks ago at the age of 71, ever disclosed?
posted by gwint at 7:04 AM on October 2, 2020 [25 favorites]

Random Conspiratorial Thoughts:

The baseline, "It's Trump, so he could well be lying", reaction is well-based in fact.
Trump, being the malignant narcissist that he is, would not lie about having Covid, because unlike avoiding the draft, this he would see this as admitting weakness.
Trump, on the other hand, absolutely would hide a positive Covid test as long as possible and hope it goes away.
A night time memo from the physician doesn't really sound the way a first positive test from an asymptomatic Trump would be presented.
What are the odds he's had no-to-mild symptoms for a week and last night the symptoms flared up to the point where it could no longer be hidden?
Embracing the "he must have gotten it from Hicks, who got it from being too nice to those soldiers and cops" story plays much better than "he infected Hicks and who knows how many others in his immediate circle."

I'm going back and for though, about whether this is really just me being conspiratorial, or simply Occam's Razor.
posted by bcd at 7:07 AM on October 2, 2020 [45 favorites]

The next month is going to be pure chaos and no one can predict where this is going. The conspiracy theories and spins are going to be a tidal wave of shit.

All of us play a part now. We are the ones who have to try and bring as many others back down to the ground and remind them of the truth and help focus people on voting him out:

1. We are in a middle of global pandemic that is impacting every country. As much as conspiracies and fantasy role playing is fun, they don’t reflect reality.

2. Tens of millions of people around the world have contracted this. Trump is now in that number. Over a million have died globally, and over 205,000 in the US

3. Common sense methods like mask wearing and social distancing are our best line of defense for the moment, and for the medium term most likely.

4. Leadership is a responsibility, and the POTUS’s lack of leadership here has put us all at risk, including himself and his own family. We need better leadership, and we need to vote Trump out.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:11 AM on October 2, 2020 [22 favorites]

CNN says the White House confirms the President has “mild symptoms”. Like Boris Johnson had.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

When did he last meet with Amy Coney Barrett? Does she have to quarantine herself? Sure would be a shame if those Senate hearings were delayed.
posted by saturday_morning at 7:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

I don't know which is worse, President Trump in quarantine and probably ready to tweet all the time or more debates.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:14 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel has also tested positive
posted by gt2 at 7:14 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

From NYT, The president has had what one person described as cold-like symptoms. At a fund-raiser he attended at his golf club at Bedminster, N.J., on Thursday, where one attendee said the president came in contact with about 100 people, he seemed lethargic.

A person briefed on the matter said that Mr. Trump fell asleep at one point on Air Force One on the way back from a rally in Minnesota on Wednesday night.

Fecking idiots. He had "cold-like symptoms" during a pandemic, and they let him out into crowds?

Rank incompetency. Vote him out, at the very least.
posted by Dashy at 7:16 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

Just reiterating that the WH did not disclose that Hope Hicks was positive. Jennifer Jacobs, the senior White House reporter for Bloomberg News, broke the story.
posted by gwint at 7:17 AM on October 2, 2020 [43 favorites]

Please don't buy into the typical doom and gloom nonsense that everyone seems to do about any sort of Trump related chaos. For one thing Trump is not some mastermind playing 5D chess, yes he's got some low cunning but also has the attention span of a gnat and the impulse control of a ferret on speed. The idea that the Trump campaign could manufacture some sort of fake diagnosis is stupid and would be revealed almost immediately (probably in some comment to reporters or via a Trump tweet because he's that sort of guy). Honestly considering how mask wearing was seen as a sign of a lack of loyalty in the WH I'm sort of shocked it hadn't already happened.

I know there is some fear that there will be some sort of mass sympathy rally round the flag result from this but keep in mind Johnson got sick very early on while people were still processing the possible impact. Trump is getting sick after the impact and risks have been known for months and has been consistently downplaying it nearly all of that time. The rally round the flag effect from a national tragedy already happened and we've gone back to an equilibrium of 38-41% approval like Trump has been stuck at his entire presidency. Simply put Trump getting sick from a disease he made more prevalent isn't going to negate the 206,000 people in the US that have died from his mismanagement.

Furthermore the timing of this is super inconvenient for the Trump campaign. They are behind in the polls, they just came off a terrible debate performance, they are way behind in terms of money for advertisements and now he likely cannot do any of his mini Nuremburg rallies for 2+ weeks assuming he returns to full health. While the people that attend those are his ride or die types that were 100% going to vote for him anyway they also were free advertisements because he could go on those say all sorts of crazy ass shit and the media would duitifully report and amplify his messaging even if it came with a "yeah this is crazy pants shit". They did this because Trump being Trump is apparently good for ratings. So now you've got 2+ weeks where Trump can't be Trump in person and he's gotta depend on Trump Twitter and even the media have gotten bored of sharing Trump tweets. It also means he can't gladhand at fundraising events which is going to mean that he's even more behind in terms of campaign cash at the exact wrong time.

Of course considering all of the risk factors he exhibits there is a non-zero risk that he won't actually recover from this illness so the question mark is whether Pence would somehow be able to convince enough reluctant republican voters to come back into the fold at the the last second. But I think this makes the assumption that Pence is somehow likable and charismatic and that somehow people that are mainly reluctant to vote for Trump because of character issues would be willing to vote for his second in command. It also seems to depend on whether Pence would somehow be able to get the die-hard Trump voters to still come out in force. I'm not saying this sort of result is impossible but it seems pretty unlikely.

What will be super interesting is whether McConnell and Graham will try to force ACB hearings forward at the expected pace or if the likelihood of various Senators being exposed to COVID will force them to delay the confirmation hearings until after the election? Getting ACB confirmed within 2 weeks was going to be challenging considering that Schumer could do all sorts of procedural shenanigans to slow down Senate business but now you have the specter that ACB and other Senators will need to self-isolate and the whole timing will be thrown off.

And this is just one of like 5-6 terrible news stories that dropped just yesterday. I can't even imagine what sort of other dirt is going to come out in the next couple of weeks and the only thing the Trump campaign has in response is some sort rehashed Clinton deep state nonsense and Hunter stories. Their project veritas surprise was already revealed to be total bullshit.
posted by vuron at 7:18 AM on October 2, 2020 [57 favorites]

This is a common perception but it is not quite right. Unlike David Cameron, Boris Johnson is not born to rule. I wish I could find it because it was such an accurate description of class micro-structure but years ago I read an opinion piece on the difference between the relative class positions of Clegg (remember that guy?), Cameron, and Johnson.

Reading this gave me this great feeling of relief.. that wretched island never deserved Jeremy Corbyn.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:20 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

And they knew Hicks was positive, and tried to hide it, and that did not stop the doofus from going maskless at an indoor fundraiser.

Add it to the scandal pile, a burning tire fire of lies "the likes of which we've never seen".
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:21 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel has also tested positive

Pour one out for nominative determinism.
posted by acb at 7:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [35 favorites]

I want to ask respectfully to stop calling her ACB. She hasn't earned that and never will.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:23 AM on October 2, 2020 [97 favorites]

RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel has also tested positive

Pour one out for nominative determinism.
posted by acb at 7:22 AM on October 2 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]

I want to ask respectfully to stop calling her ACB. She hasn't earned that and never will.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:23 AM on October 2 [3 favorites +] [!]

It's their username!... oh, wait...
posted by From Bklyn at 7:26 AM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

He had "cold-like symptoms" during a pandemic, and they let him out into crowds
And they knew Hicks was positive, and tried to hide it, and that did not stop the doofus from going maskless at an indoor fundraiser

Hopefully this is the Day 2 story. What did the President know and when did he know it?
posted by saturday_morning at 7:26 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Come on man!

Chris Wallace did it.
posted by AugustWest at 7:27 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

A smart despot would have a freezer full of the latest antibody treatments in the WH bunker ready for such a situation. Apparently the new monoclonal antibodies are pretty potent (if not through clinical trials yet) and if I were him I'd be demanding a dose right now.

He's not that smart or organized, though.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:28 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

I want to know if the Russian embassy is doing any panic testing of the agents who handle their Republican assets. It'd be pretty hilarious if they had an outbreak at the same time.

It'd probably also be interesting from an espionage perspective if the American security apparatus could use viral DNA to establish contact and transmission chains.
posted by srboisvert at 7:29 AM on October 2, 2020 [29 favorites]

So now you've got 2+ weeks where Trump can't be Trump in person and he's gotta depend on Trump Twitter and even the media have gotten bored of sharing Trump tweets. It also means he can't gladhand at fundraising events which is going to mean that he's even more behind in terms of campaign cash at the exact wrong time.

I can't imagine Trump actually staying put, so this should be interesting to see, in the worse kind of way.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:31 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

I want to ask respectfully to stop calling her ACB. She hasn't earned that and never will.

I dunno... A Cop Bastard has a certain ring to it.
posted by srboisvert at 7:31 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

If he was symptomatic Weds, then by standard protocols anyone he had close contact with since probably Monday or even Sunday onward needs to be in quarantine for two weeks.

That includes a lot of government. And Biden.

Of course, most of his people will now completely disregard those protocols, even as the whole nation is watching. Another step backwards in national disease management.

Edit add (to not clog up thread) NPR is reporting that Biden has heard nothing from the GOP campaign's contact tracers.
posted by Dashy at 7:34 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel has also tested positive

Ronna? Seriously?
The Co-Chairperson Covid Jones must be shitting themselves.
posted by fullerine at 7:36 AM on October 2, 2020 [22 favorites]

Barrett has tested negative FWIW.

Kamala Harris too.
posted by saturday_morning at 7:38 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

I'm looking forward to the next Lincoln Project ads. The Biden campaign will probably find it tasteless to match Trump's ridiculing of Biden's mask with his illness, but The Lincoln Project doesn't do taste.

Has Trump tweeted yet? At this time of day, there are usually several tweets out, aren't there? (I am not on twitter)
posted by mumimor at 7:39 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Second, the parties would now have to replace the name of their dead candidate on each state’s ballot with that of the new candidate. Depending on when this happens, that might not be simple. Different states have different deadlines for when the parties must certify their candidates for the ballot. In 2016, most were in August and September. If states do not have laws that permit changing the candidate’s name after that date, courts would probably have to be brought in. It’s hard to imagine courts refusing to permit one of the two major parties to replace a deceased candidate’s name with that of a validly chosen replacement. [...]

The problem here is that ballots are already out and millions of people have already voted. At this point it seems impossible for candidates to come up with a new name to replace a name on the ballot without starting the whole election process over, which is not possible in the 30+ days before election day. Congress could pass a bill delaying the election but I find it hard to believe it would do so.

While things are not certain, what’s most likely that the election would take place on time with the deceased or incapacitated candidate’s name on the ballot, and then there would be a question if legislatures would allow presidential electors of each state to vote for someone other than the deceased candidate. Only some state laws provide for this eventuality. (Update: Some states provide that the votes for a named replacement are counted.) Or perhaps the legislatures would seek to appoint electors directly. This could lead to a whole lot of mischief if, say, the Pennsylvania Republican legislature tried, over the Democratic governor’s objection, to appoint electors to vote for Pence (if it were Trump who could no longer be a candidate) despite a vote for the people of Pennsylania for Biden over Trump.

It's bourbon o'clock somewhere.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:41 AM on October 2, 2020 [16 favorites]

Rick Hasen: With News That the President Has Tested Positive for Coronavirus (and He Was in Contact with Joe Biden at the Debate Earlier in the Week), What Happens If a Presidential Candidate Dies or is Incapacitated Before Election Day? A Mess

Oh come on, he's most likely gonna recover. That just looks like click bait.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:48 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

A lot of worrying about how this could help Trump in the election. And hey, I get it. We’re all terrified that he’s going to get another term and justifiably so.

But let’s think about things. One, people talk about the rallying effect this will have on his supporters. Forget about them. They’re voting for him anyway and their numbers have shown zero sign of increasing.

Next, let’s look at the dynamics behind Biden’s support. He’s not the most exciting candidate, but he’s been consistently above 50% in the polls and the race has been incredibly stable. People are dug in and have been for quite a while. Look at the flood of new voter registrations. Look at the turnout in the midterms. I haven’t looked at all states but in Arizona, primary turnout was WAY up for the Dems. Look at the over two million ballots that have already been cast, vs the 74,000 this time in 2016. People cannot ducking wait to vote him out. Look at Biden’s fundraisiing. It’s record setting, and it’s accelerating. And events like the debate and RBGs passing produced massive bumps. No final figures yet, but the campaign is saying they raised more in September than in August. People are ready to vote for Biden and that enthusiasm to do so is only growing.

We’re not looking at a fluid race. There are not that many people that can be persuaded right now. This illness does not erase four years of boorish behavior, supporting white supremacists, racist policies, constantly attacking people on Twitter, nonstop lying, and a completely incompetent and non-caring response to he pandemic. He has shown zero compassion or empathy for the people who have gotten sick and the people who have died. He is not a sympathetic figure at all. Him catching the virus that he downplayed and mismanaged isn’t going to suddenly swing a ton of voters. The tens of millions of people who can’t wait to vote him out, the people who rightly see him as a national security threat, the people who are keenly aware he wants to stoke violence... those people are never coming to his side of the fence.

I get the worrying. I think as far as the election goes, though, we’re not seeing a change.
posted by azpenguin at 7:48 AM on October 2, 2020 [27 favorites]

The delay between exposure and a positive test can be up to 5 days so anyone exposed during that time is still at risk. Furthermore just because someone is negative now doesn't mean that someone else who was in contact with Trump and company won't get sick in the meantime. Does anyone really expect that the entire West Wing will go into strict isolation for 2 weeks?

I think Schumer can definitely claim that the increased risk of exposure means conducting the nomination hearings is dangerous and should be delayed for the safety of all individuals. McConnell and Graham will of course ignore that advice but it will make it seem like they are acting even more partisan which isn't going to help any of the at risk Senators. McSally, Tillis and Gardner are already goners and things are looking worse and worse for Collins and Ernst. There might be some of those endangered creatures that will want to delay the vote until the lame duck session.

Make no mistake Barrett will get confirmed but the prospect of it actually being a big benefit for Republicans prior to the election seems increasingly unlikely.
posted by vuron at 7:48 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Linger on until Election Day and all the ballots are counted, that’s all I ask. Don’t want the Never-Trumpers-But-Still-Republicans having an out. Or demanding their early voting ballots back or the Deplorable base demanding a do-over because of that or the latest Supreme Court justice getting to weigh in. I can’t even feel the schadenfreude for worrying about election disruption, and that Biden was not far enough away from the spitting angry unconscionable —————-.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:51 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

If he was symptomatic Weds, then by standard protocols anyone he had close contact with since probably Monday or even Sunday onward needs to be in quarantine for two weeks.

That includes a lot of government. And Biden.

According to the CDC, "close contact is defined as any individual who was within 6 feet of an infected person for at least 15 minutes starting from 2 days before illness onset (or, for asymptomatic patients, 2 days prior to positive specimen collection) until the time the patient is isolated."

Biden and Trump were always more than 6 feet apart during the debate and they never shook hands, so he wouldn't qualify as someone who needs to quarantine under the CDC's definition.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 7:51 AM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

> Oh come on, he's most likely gonna recover. That just looks like click bait.

This presidency has been a long string of catastrophic events that we were told had a low probability of happening, starting with him winning it in the first place. But that happened, and all of those other catastrophic events happened. I'm happy that you have the steely resolve to look at the mortality numbers and shrug your shoulders at the possibility of calamity, but perhaps you could leave some space for those of us who don't?
posted by tonycpsu at 7:58 AM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

GENIE: you still have 2 more wishes
ME: nope I’m good
posted by delfin at 8:00 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Pulling in my comment from the other Trump FPP...

As far as whether this will affect the Supreme Court hearings... actually maybe, at least in the short term.

Trump and Hicks have had direct contact with Mark Meadows who has had 1st or 2nd degree contact with most of the Republican Senators as part of the Barrett roadshow. So most of the Republican Senate has had somewhere between 2nd and 3rd degree exposure. And while they're devoted to holding onto power, many of them are elderly. So I won't be surprised if this causes a delay in the hearings. Depending on just how much close contact they've had, if Meadows also had it, 2-10 Republican Senators might come down with it.

As it turns out, McConnell said Thursday night (when he would have known the diagnosis but the public didn't yet) that he was open to installing Barrett in a lame duck session.

And honestly, that probably works out better for him. The vulnerable Senators don't have to be on the record as voting for her, the base is still motivated to get out and vote because they don't have the SC yet, and those Senators that aren't being responsible and quarantining themselves are free to go campaigning rather than sitting around in DC holding hearings.
posted by Candleman at 8:00 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

> CNN reporting that Amy Coney Barrett has tested positive.

I'm seeing reports that she tested negative? Don't get my hopes up like that
posted by dis_integration at 8:01 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I'm too old to live long enough to explain 2020 to my grandkids. For that I rise to give thanks to the Cosmic Muffin and all her attendants. Go ahead and scoff. I have not yet figured out how to explain the 60's. For now I can't separate my general wish to feel sympathy for anyone who has to deal with this terrible disease, and my sputtering reaction to the galactic irony of this development.

We swim in deep water.
posted by mule98J at 8:02 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Yeah I mis-read CNN's breaking news thing and asked the mods to delete the post.
posted by jquinby at 8:02 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Don Jr., Ivanka, Eric, and Tiffany Trump didn't wear masks during the president's showdown with Joe Biden, breaking the venue's rules, Business Insider, Sinéad Baker, Sep 30, 2020:

Trump's children were pictured wearing masks as they approached their seats, but they took them off for the debate itself.
First lady Melania Trump took off her mask after sitting down. She did not wear one on stage, while Jill Biden did.
...people in the audience who were there to support Biden wore masks for the event.

Photos in the BI article.
posted by cenoxo at 8:07 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

This presidency has been a long string of catastrophic events that we were told had a low probability of happening, starting with him winning it in the first place. But that happened, and all of those other catastrophic events happened. I'm happy that you have the steely resolve to look at the mortality numbers and shrug your shoulders at the possibility of calamity, but perhaps you could leave some space for those of us who don't?

No, I think you're misunderstanding me and confusing things. I'm not talking about any of the crazy unlikely stuff that's happened with him over the years. All I'm saying is don't get your hopes up that this will terminate him. He's got access to good health care. But who knows, he's not young or in good health.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:08 AM on October 2, 2020

Per The Guardian: Donald Trump’s youngest son, Barron, 14, has tested negative for COVID-19, the White House said.
posted by cenoxo at 8:13 AM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Bluesky43, that is a faked image and the tweet has been deleted.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 8:19 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

This potential situation is why I have always had mixed views about widespread mail-in balloting and early voting. Haven't there already been some elections where a candidate died or otherwise had to be dropped from the race between the time ballots were mailed out and election day?
posted by PhineasGage at 8:20 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I'm too old to live long enough to explain 2020 to my grandkids.

No matter how long I live, I won't be able to explain 2020 to my grandkids (and I don't have any yet). But worse, I fear that 2020 marks the beginning of a new age rather than an unfortunate outlier in a succession of normal years. So 2020 may someday seem like a quaint harbinger, bad as it seems now.

I've occasionally used the phrase "the beforetimes" with my family, at first ironically, but now it's normal. "May you live in interesting times" indeed.
posted by swift at 8:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

I don't think you announce this at 1am unless you expect to be making a trip to Walter Reed today.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:23 AM on October 2, 2020 [34 favorites]

When did he last meet with Amy Coney Barrett? Does she have to quarantine herself? Sure would be a shame if those Senate hearings were delayed.

Weren't they going to do then virtually anyway? If not, they would probably do so.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:24 AM on October 2, 2020

Drinking game: do a shot every time you hear the phrase "an abundance of caution."

Update: I am dead.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:25 AM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

"An abundance of caution" is the new "Now more than ever."
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:27 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

What are the chances he tries to use this as a pretense to delay the election?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:28 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

"But who knows, he's not young or in good health."

At least he was lucky never to have had a series of mini-strokes.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:29 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Time to get started on a wooden sculpture of the numbers "2020" so I can burn it on New Year's Eve ala Burning Man.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:29 AM on October 2, 2020 [20 favorites]

What are the chances he tries to use this as a pretense to delay the election?

He can try all he wants, that’s simply not a thing that can happen. I’m comfortable calling that shot.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:30 AM on October 2, 2020 [28 favorites]

What are the chances he tries to use this as a pretense to delay the election?

I can guarantee that he'll tweet or talk about it, but seriously doubt it can happen. He doesn't have the power and this train has already started moving.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:30 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

Karma is a sweet sweet bitch.
posted by infini at 8:31 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

I crunch numbers regarding the numbers of COVID-19 cases for each of the fifty states (and DC). This past couple of weeks have looked bad, the worst since late July. This is partially masked in total numbers of new infections because most of the big increases are taking place in less populous states. California, for example, is doing well, while the Dakotas are doing badly.

33 out of 51 states (by that I include DC) had increases in infectious rates this past week. As for new infections per million, the top 16 states are all red (as defined by whether Donald Trump won in 2016). Minnesota is the 17th.

North Dakota has the second highest new cases per million per week that any state has had, save Florida at Florida's peak.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:32 AM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

whether this is really just me being conspiratorial, or simply Occam's Razor.

sometimes even Occam resorts to conspiracy
posted by philip-random at 8:35 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I just hope he doesn't Karma Houdini his way out of this one and never ever have one symptom and be perfectly fine forever. Which I am absolutely expecting the way 2020 is going.

Because testing is so backed up and slow, and because it's a new disease, we don't have hard data on early treatment with available resources. Generally we don't have this on acute viral infections at all, because you usually catch after symptoms. But given how the virus works and drugs and anecdotally from doctors this is the best case scenario--one denied to most people because of our crappy testing.

Even without experimental antibodies or something. I'm nervous as hell but I'd like my odds in this case. The groomsman for one of the Four Riders? He'll be fine. Options and knowledge are better than they were in New York during the early height.
posted by mark k at 8:36 AM on October 2, 2020

It's unfortunate that spray tan doesn't provide Vitamin D...
posted by msbrauer at 8:37 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I've been repeating on Twitter the history of the GOP's appalling treatment of this pandemic, especially when it was only affecting blue States. Trump mocking my governor and his cult showing up with guns at the Capitol because they couldn't get haircuts, Kushner saying well it's only affecting blue states, the Texas Lt. Gov. floating the trial balloon that old people should die for the economy.

I want people to remember every horrible thing they've said /not said, done/ not done, because I know how they'll change their tune, and how the cult's cognitive dissonance will make them forget the past. Now, if he gets better it's "thanks to the Lord" or "what a strong person he is."

If he did get really sick or die (which he won't), well, Evangelicals have wanted pence from the start. A state funeral, images of steely jawed Mike assuming command..

Also, this of course has removed every other awful thing from the news cycle.

So yes, I worry about Biden's health, and even if Biden and God forbid his beloved wife don't get ill, I worry how this will slow Joementum and make a sociopathic dictator sympathetic.

ploy for him to loudly and publicly appear to take a vaccine that miraculously works

I don't think you ever get a vaccine while you have a disease?
posted by NorthernLite at 8:38 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

"covid attempting to impress jodie foster"
posted by Laura Palmer's Cold Dead Kiss at 8:43 AM on October 2, 2020 [36 favorites]

I was thinking last night about all the schaudenfruede about this and how just outright "karma!" "About time!" and all that we've been seeing, how many of us who normally would never wish someone ill have been taking a measure of "told ya so". I was surprised at how I was feeling about all this, and kinda guilty. For a lot of us, this is not who we are, and yet, now here we are. I think I've figured it out. This is the first time in the last four years that he has had to deal with consequences for his actions. He has gotten away with so much. So what you're feeling is basically, in a warped way, your sense of justice peeking out. I won't get carried away with this but at least I understand why I'm feeling like this.
posted by azpenguin at 8:43 AM on October 2, 2020 [40 favorites]

I can guarantee that he'll tweet or talk about it, but seriously doubt it can happen. He doesn't have the power and this train has already started moving.

I agree, but the press reports almost every word out of his mouth, and Twitter won’t get rid of him, so whatever he says will fan the flames and put ideas in the heads of other unsavory people.
posted by Melismata at 8:43 AM on October 2, 2020

Zero chance that the election can be delayed. Hell at this point people have started voting so they couldn't even replace a nominee's name at this date. So for all intents and purposes the train has already left the station.

Republicans are definitely trying to put their fingers on the scale in some of the swing states in addition to their standard voter suppression routines (thanks Gov. Abbott) but honestly I'm beginning to think they've already written off a Trump loss as inevitable and their games are mainly about limiting the damage down ballot. If Biden is making states like GA, IA, OH, TX competitive that puts a massive amount of pressure on federal, state and local elections in a lot of states. This election will have significant implications for reapportionment and redistricting and Republicans are looking at a perfect storm of suck right now and very limited amount of time to change things up.

The fact that you have at risk Senators talking about somehow protecting pre-existing conditions when the SCOTUS likely rules against ACA already tells you how bad they think this election could be. Too bad they couldn't have you know come to their senses back during impeachment though...
posted by vuron at 8:44 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

This is the scary bit about testing. A negative test doesn't mean that the person is not infected. Of course, I dont expect any WH staffers to even acknowledge this about the tests.
posted by asra at 8:46 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

I'm really looking forward to "An Oral History of How Saturday Night Live Re-Wrote Their Entire October 3rd, 2020 Show On The Friday Before Air."
posted by bondcliff at 8:49 AM on October 2, 2020 [92 favorites]

>Time to get started on a wooden sculpture of the numbers "2020" so I can burn it on New Year's Eve ala Burning Man.

Something like this perhaps?
posted by Catblack at 8:49 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

He has gotten away with so much. So what you're feeling is basically, in a warped way, your sense of justice peeking out. I won't get carried away with this but at least I understand why I'm feeling like this.

I hear that. But I also don't think it would help the cause of justice for him to die or become very sick. That gives him martyrdom of one kind or another. In any case, his conspiracy theorists can spin his being the focus of attention in his favor every time. The thing is, I don't think he will die, or even get very sick. His horrible meat barrel has its weaknesses, but it hasn't failed him yet. Plus, the world's best care, etc. And it certainly won't change him as a person. There's nothing there to change. The same goes for Melania.

I am feeling all kinds of ways about this. I am thinking of this old Zen parable, particularly.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:50 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

How on earth did this administration allow the Commander-In-Chief to catch covid? Mind boggling incompetence — this is the key take-away — no matter what his ultimate health outcome.

I say this because it’s statistically more likely that he will be fine than not, and if he recovers quickly, he will crow about 1. covid being a nothing-burger and 2. he recovered because he is Superman (he will claim both simultaneously, of course, but Trumpers won’t notice the contradiction).

Presidential Covid = concentric circles of incompetence and failure.
posted by Toecutter at 8:50 AM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

Metafilter: His horrible meat barrel.
posted by jquinby at 8:52 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

You can't make the man do what he ought -- that is, wear a mask, socially distance, give up his rallies. They've done a hell of a job to get him out of it for this long.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:53 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

The better analogy would be not to Bolsonaro's COVID, but to him being stabbed in 2018, one month before the election. It gave him a huge advantage: dominated the news cycle, surge of patriotic support, convenient excuse to not embarrass himself in any debate.

There are a lot of "stabbing truthers" convinced to this day that it was all a setup. That doesn't stand up to scrutiny, he was treated by two medical teams and the police and courts concluded that it was just a mentally ill lone wolf. Still, conspiracy theorists gonna conspiracy theorize.

Which brings us to the question: How well documented is Trump's diagnosis? Any Trump COVID truthers yet?
posted by Tom-B at 8:54 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Mike Lee, senator from Utah, has also tested positive.

He was at the unmasked, undistanced, Rose Garden SCOTUS event on Saturday.
posted by bcd at 8:55 AM on October 2, 2020 [17 favorites]

What do you want to bet it's under a week before he's back out, visibly violating isolation protocol and making a big tweet about how it's not really necessary?
posted by eirias at 8:55 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Oh yeah, Tom, all over Facebook. It's anti-Trump, of course. I can believe that he would lie about anything, but this just does not seem like his style.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:55 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Mike Lee sits on judiciary.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:57 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

Any Trump COVID truthers yet?

All over my Facebook feed, yes.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:57 AM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Mike Lee was also doing unmasked, undistanced photo ops with Barrett as recently as Tuesday.
posted by bcd at 8:58 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

¯\_(🦠)_/¯
posted by donatella at 9:01 AM on October 2, 2020 [65 favorites]

I hear that. But I also don't think it would help the cause of justice for him to die or become very sick.

As a Canadian and ex-Torontonian I end up harping on Rob Ford a lot in these threads, but I think it's a really important comparison. Weeks before he was set to be defeated in his re-election bid, he got cancer and dropped out of the race. The city never had a chance to vote him out. And I think that lack of catharsis, skipping the introspection and processing the scale of what had just happened to the city, is a big reason why a) Toronto has been run ever since that election by another conservative with the same policies and nicer manners — the Tom Cotton to Ford's Trump if you will — and b) the province of Ontario managed to gloss over the whole thing and elect Ford's monstrous brother as its leader a couple years later.

You really, really do not want this to happen to Trump.

How well documented is Trump's diagnosis? Any Trump COVID truthers yet?

Scroll up.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:04 AM on October 2, 2020 [45 favorites]

Things that will absolutely happen in the next 14 days:

1. Trump will announce that he's feeling great and not sick at all.
2. Trump will blame the deep state for intentionally giving him the virus because that's the only way he could have gotten it since he obviously was washing his hands a lot.
3. Trump will announce his recovery from the disease after very mild symptoms because he took hydroxychloroquine and not because he received the best care any human in the world can receive beginning mere hours after contracting the disease.
4. Trump will continually harp that COVID isn't that bad, and "hey, I had it, and it was like the sniffles."
posted by Room 101 at 9:06 AM on October 2, 2020 [18 favorites]

Haven't read all the comments yet, but unable to control my immediate reaction: HA HA HA HA HOW DO YOU LIKE IT NOW MOTHERFUCKER
posted by medusa at 9:08 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

Lee is also only 49 and Barrett is only 48. They have a ~99% chance of surviving. If Barrett gets significantly ill it might delay the hearings, but it won't affect the outcome.

But between the Rose Garden event where Lee may have caught it, all the people traveling with Hicks, the debate, the Minnesota fundraiser, White House staff, etc there's a good chance that somebody dies. "Trump gave someone a lethal case of COVID" could be the story right before the election.
posted by jedicus at 9:10 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

FWIW, the exact distance between Trump and Biden podiums at debate was 12 feet, 8 inches
posted by piyushnz at 9:12 AM on October 2, 2020

"Trump gave someone a lethal case of COVID" could be the story right before the election.

*cough* Herman
*cough* Cain
posted by saturday_morning at 9:14 AM on October 2, 2020 [23 favorites]

Biden's negative for coronavirus.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:16 AM on October 2, 2020 [58 favorites]

Cain couldn't have caught it from Trump directly. Someone dying after catching it in the same cluster as Trump (and this is already a cluster) or catching it directly from Trump...that starts to feel different, I think, especially the latter.
posted by jedicus at 9:17 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Biden's negative for coronavirus.

Source?
posted by bluesky43 at 9:18 AM on October 2, 2020

DiFi or Grassley who have been in close proximity to Lee at SJC meetings this week are certainly high-risk just based on their ages.
posted by bcd at 9:19 AM on October 2, 2020

Biden's negative for coronavirus.

Source?

NBC news reporter.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:19 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

US Presidential Chief of Staff Mark Meadows says that when they learned that Hope Hicks had tested positive, they pulled some staff who had been in contact with her off the Marine One helicopter headed to New Jersey. But there was someone who had been in close contact with Hope Hicks they didn’t pull off the helicopter. The President, who has subsequently tested positive for COVID-19. Why? Presumably the President didn’t care enough about whether he might spread deadly disease to other people.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:20 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Marianna Sotomayor
@MariannaNBCNews
.@mikememoli
breaking news: @JoeBiden
has tested NEGATIVE for the coronavirus after taking a test this morning.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:21 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Biden's negative for coronavirus.

Source?

Also on front page of NYT
posted by terrapin at 9:21 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

One thing it occurs to me that might result from this is proving all those dumb "just do this and you'll be fine" theories false, because no way will Trump actually take that shitty medical advice he's been spouting.
posted by corb at 9:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Yamiche Alcindor : NEWS: Former VP Joe Biden and his wife Dr. Jill Biden have tested NEGATIVE for COVID-19.
posted by bluesky43 at 9:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Biden is negative today. He'll still need another test next week to confirm.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [40 favorites]

So I mean, as someone who had COVID earlier in this year, I’d like to point out that even mild cases can be devastating. Like, getting out of bed is still too much some days. So I mean, while I’m sure you all spent good money on those goats whose entrails are telling you “oh, it’s likely gonna be mild, and he’ll be back and convince everyone that COVID is a hoax still,” maybe we could hold off and see if he could actually stand up for long enough to give that speech.
posted by Gygesringtone at 9:24 AM on October 2, 2020 [88 favorites]

Thank goodness Biden is negative. Worst case scenario would have been that Trump - after mocking Biden during the debate for wearing a mask - passed it on to him and that Biden succumbed but Trump survived.
posted by essexjan at 9:24 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Give President Trump his due: his bold choices may well have taken the nation’s greatest security threat out of action.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:28 AM on October 2, 2020 [30 favorites]

Gygesringtone; agreed I know a kid, 24-25 who had it in March and is still coughing despite doctors citing no lung damage, also has fatigue problems.
posted by Max Power at 9:29 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

It is good that Joe and Jill Biden tested negative, but we're not actually out of the woods for that scenario yet, essexjan. It usually takes a few days past exposure for someone to be sick enough to give a positive PCR test and then symptoms show up a day or so later. If Biden were exposed Tuesday night it might be a day or two until a positive test would show up.
posted by Sublimity at 9:29 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

I would assume the Bidens will be tested daily for the next little while for that reason. Especially if he plans to continue campaigning in the meantime.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:30 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

I can see the FOX headlines:

BIDEN GOES NEGATIVE IN WAKE OF DEBATE
posted by philip-random at 9:35 AM on October 2, 2020 [22 favorites]

Trump refuses to give us nearly any medical information about himself that isn't a lie. When he was rushed to the hospital it was "just a scheduled physical."

The guy who literally won't tell anyone anything with a straight answer says he has COVID. They're his medical records, so unless he literally unseals medical records as proof, we're just taking his word, and we know his word is 100% gish-galop bullshit,

Color me as skeptical as you can fucking be. Being the well known germaphobe he is, and his statements to Woodward, make clear he would be absolutely losing his fucking shit if he had it. We know this because we know deep down Trump is the biggest coward of all.

He is not losing his shit, ipso facto fuckto he's full of shit.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:35 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Maggie Haberman NYT. White House told Cuomo's office that POTUS would be on this 12:15 call, per people briefed. But it's Pence, not POTUS, who is on right now.
12:27 PM · Oct 2, 2020
posted by bluesky43 at 9:36 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

I would assume that the Bidens know this and would do something like, oh I don't know, maybe NOT WALK AROUND WITHOUT MASKS ON IN BIG CROWDS DURING A GODDAMNED PANDEMIC... because what kind of raving idiot moron does THAT amirite?
posted by caution live frogs at 9:37 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I would assume Biden's getting tested daily, as part of his Secret Service protection, just like 45.
posted by Rash at 9:37 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Barring his death (and as much as I hate the guy, I can't wish for anyone's death) I see no way in which he doesn't spin this to rally his supporters, making them believe it's a positive thing, unless he quickly ends up intubated until election day. Also, if he makes it out the other side, the "see, you don't need masks" people are going to go completely nuts.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 9:38 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

He is not losing his shit, ipso facto fuckto he's full of shit.

He hasn't shown his face or said anything publicly (ghostwritten tweet notwithstanding), so I question how certain you are that he is still in possession of his feces.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:39 AM on October 2, 2020 [18 favorites]

BBC and others are reporting that both the Bidens have tested negative.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:40 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

He is not losing his shit, ipso facto fuckto he's full of shit.
This is just my opinion, man, but I think he is loosing his shit. That is why we are not seeing anything from him.
posted by mumimor at 9:40 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

But it's Pence, not POTUS, who is on right now.

"As of now, Mother is in control here, at the White House."
posted by delfin at 9:40 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

He is not losing his shit, ipso facto fuckto he's full of shit.

What makes you think that, though? He hasn't tweeted all day (except for 1am covid announcement), so who knows?
posted by Juffo-Wup at 9:40 AM on October 2, 2020

He hasn't tweeted for almost 12 hours. Too early to say, I know, but is this it? Has he gone silent?
posted by popcassady at 9:41 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

The three tweet sequence from Joe Biden over the last 15 hours is *chef's kiss*. It's basically you screwed up on Covid, sorry you got Covid, my wife and I don't have Covid - remember to wash your hands.

(in chronological order)
- Donald Trump will do everything he can to distract from the fact that because of his failed COVID-19 response: -Over 200,000 Americans have died- 26 million are on unemployment - 1 in 6 small businesses risk permanent closure. We can’t let him.

- Jill and I send our thoughts to President Trump and First Lady Melania Trump for a swift recovery. We will continue to pray for the health and safety of the president and his family.

- I’m happy to report that Jill and I have tested negative for COVID. Thank you to everyone for your messages of concern. I hope this serves as a reminder: wear a mask, keep social distance, and wash your hands.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:41 AM on October 2, 2020 [69 favorites]

He hasn’t tweeted, but has he golfed?

But I have to agree that with the access to medical care they have, massive negative preconditions non withstanding, he has a decent chance of surviving to be voted out ignominiously and made to stand trial(s).

I honestly wish him the best.
posted by tilde at 9:45 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

If the Boris Johnson illness timeline is any guide, the fact that GOP folk like Mitch McConnell are saying they've spoken to him and he's 'in good spirits' suggests he's not capable of speaking in public and he's 36-72 hours away from being on a ventilator.

Johnson was 'fine, fine, working hard, here's a blurry screenshot of me on a Zoom call' until he wasn't, then the Tories all went into 'praying for the boss' mode and he was in the ICU.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:46 AM on October 2, 2020 [17 favorites]

What a relief that Joe and Jill Biden have tested negative! They'll need later tests to confirm it, but that is definitely good news.

Trump has been confirmed to be symptomatic, and judging by how the information was released as Boris Johnson got sicker, I think he might be in pretty bad condition right now. This information is probably coming out so that we don't all panic if/when he has to go to the hospital.

This kind of uncertainty and instability is bad for the country, so it freaks me out. But this isn't good for Trump's campaign. He can't hold rallies or fundraisers, people are imagining him sick or even dead (and wondering who could replace him on the ballot), and the market is tanking. This is Trump's worst nightmare, not something he would want to play for sympathy points. He might GET some sympathy points, but it's not as though he and his followers are big on sympathy, so...

Too much news going on lately, though. It's overwhelming.
posted by rue72 at 9:47 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

I think he deserves the best medical care that money can buy.
750 dollars' worth, to be precise.
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 9:47 AM on October 2, 2020 [77 favorites]

He hasn't shown his face or said anything publicly (ghostwritten tweet notwithstanding), so I question how certain you are that he is still in possession of his feces.

Mostly that he was able to stand in front of cameras and say "I have COVID" without losing his shit partway through.

He has been unable to be straighforward about ANY medical situation in his life, he refuses to give answers about the most basic of medical situations.

But this, he just lays it out. Somehow, I just don't think if he REALLY had it, that there would be an announcement. They would hide it until he was intubated. Hell, they might even try to go with a body double.

Republican administrations traditionally hide absolutely everything they can that could make them look bad until it can't be hidden anymore. Bush hid fucking torture, people.

Coming right out and announcing it does not fit with the kind of fuckery they've been doing for more than twenty fucking years.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:48 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Notre Dame President Fr. John Jenkins, who was also at the SCOTUS event on Saturday, has tested positive for COVID-19.

Sure looks like a super spreader event to me. Video of Mike Lee at that event, holding his mask in his hand, hugging people.
posted by bcd at 9:48 AM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

...the fact that GOP folk like Mitch McConnell are saying they've spoken to him and he's 'in good spirits' suggests he's not capable of speaking in public and he's 36-72 hours away from being on a ventilator.

That was my take too. People are asking whether this is a hoax, but history suggests the hoax is in the other direction. With the administration insisting to the media that he only has mild, cold-like symptoms, we really do have to expect the worst.
posted by mittens at 9:49 AM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

October 2nd, 2016: Donald Trump mocks Hillary Clinton over her pneumonia outbreak

In case you were starting to feel bad for him.
posted by clawsoon at 9:49 AM on October 2, 2020 [73 favorites]

Here's Chief of Staff Mark Meadows in front of reporters, still not wearing a god damn mask.

Kudlow wears a mask only because reporter Brian Karem asked him.

Just saying, an awful lot of this looks awfully inevitable, like it always did.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:50 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

Republican administrations traditionally hide absolutely everything they can that could make them look bad until it can't be hidden anymore.

Coming right out and announcing it does not fit with the kind of fuckery they've been doing for more than twenty fucking years.
Maybe they know that they are already at the point where it can't be hidden anymore. In this case I agree with the comparisons with Boris Johnson. They wanted to hide it, but it was impossible.
posted by mumimor at 9:52 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

With any luck, we won't hear from him again. He gets out of hospital by the election but only releases a press statement on the morning of his loss. No tweets to rile up the right. Too ashamed to face the public, he abdicates to Pence for the lame duck period. March/April the FBI wheel-chair him, pale and bald, out of Mar-a-Lago.
posted by popcassady at 9:53 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

>> He hasn't shown his face or said anything publicly (ghostwritten tweet notwithstanding), so I question how certain you are that he is still in possession of his feces.

> Mostly that he was able to stand in front of cameras and say "I have COVID" without losing his shit partway through.

When did he do that?
posted by churl at 9:53 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

Sure looks like a super spreader event to me. Video of Mike Lee at that event, holding his mask in his hand, hugging people.

This has the feel of a season-ending cliffhanger. Who will make it out of Moldavia alive?
posted by Slothrup at 9:55 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Melania's tapes got leaked. Next day: BOOM.

When you declare a War on Christmas, you best not miss.
posted by delfin at 9:59 AM on October 2, 2020 [74 favorites]

This has the feel of a season-ending cliffhanger.

As we sure the series was picked up for next season? I hope so, but not positive at this point.
posted by bcd at 9:59 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Video of the ACB announcement event on Saturday at the WH featuring Sen. Mike Lee of Utah, who has now tested positive for Covid-19.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:03 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Is there a gofundme for Trump's medical expenses yet?
posted by srboisvert at 10:05 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Oh, my love, they've turned it into an enormous fundraiser.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:06 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

From Fox News (with apologies but this is worth it)

Smith touts an "exclusive interview" with Dr. Atlas

Wallace: I'm going to say something, I'm just giving the truth, Atlas is not an epidemiologist, not an infectious disease specialist, he has no training in this area

Atlas is on the WH task force because Trump saw him on Fox
posted by bluesky43 at 10:09 AM on October 2, 2020 [25 favorites]

My immediate thoughts last night, which have not been changed by the light of morning:

The fallout would be more likely to cause additional chaos than bring stability, but fuck it, I hope he suffers and dies. He is a fascist who has been openly agitating for civil war and denying the basic reality of a potentially deadly virus during a global pandemic (among other, worse things that I don't see discussed much anywhere). He deserved to catch it and he deserves to suffer and die. Over 200,000 other people have suffered and died as a direct result of his rank stupidity and deliberate, malicious mismanagement.

My followup thoughts last night, which have not been changed by the light of morning:

Has anyone tried treating him with bleach or sunlight? Just saying. Lots of people are asking. Maybe someone should look into that.
posted by Lonnrot at 10:09 AM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

As we sure the series was picked up for next season?

When the writers are set on killing everyone, it usually means the network's cancelling.
posted by popcassady at 10:09 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

Melania's tapes sound bad, but they're also full of just enough mixed messages for people to defend her on it, too. She's an objectively terrible person but her claiming she "tried" to reunite "a" family and how the media is mean to her is enough for people to cling to and make it a non-story.

And to be honest her disinterest in Christmas decorations is probably the most sympathetic moment she's ever had.

She's fully complicit and awful, but I don't think that story was ever destined to go far or make much difference.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

Per CNN just now, Trump skipped a planned conference call today, which Pence had to host in his stead. The subject was -- no lie -- senior citizens and the dangers of COVID.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:13 AM on October 2, 2020 [43 favorites]

Yeah I’m n^th-ing on ix-naying the initial thing for Barrett.

Also, wow I’m struggling with blendered feelings right now: “I told you so!” is mixing queasily with “Oh god, what’s next?” And “Can we just not?”
posted by disentir at 10:15 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

He hasn’t tweeted, but has he golfed?

He didn't even do the conference call that was literally the only thing on his schedule for today:

Source confirms @maggieNYT
's report: VP Pence took over for President Trump on a 12:15 PM call w/ govs on Covid-19 support for vulnerable seniors

It was the only activity listed on Trump's public schedule, after a DC fundraiser and FL rally were previously scrapped

I do not think he is faking this, if anything he's been faking how well he was.
posted by mstokes650 at 10:15 AM on October 2, 2020 [23 favorites]

And to be honest her disinterest in Christmas decorations is probably the most sympathetic moment she's ever had.

yes I was just saying to someone how in an alternate universe, Melania is justly expressing frustration with the outdated bullshit gender roles of the "first lady" position, and particularly being expected to invest in those bullshit roles in a time of national crisis, and in that alternate universe I'm a thousand percent behind her.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:16 AM on October 2, 2020 [27 favorites]

"hope is contagious"
posted by Ahmad Khani at 10:17 AM on October 2, 2020 [59 favorites]

No, those nuclear 'doomsday planes' weren't in the air because of Trump's COVID-19 diagnosis, Task & Purpose, Jeff Schogl, 10/2/2020:

Everyone on Twitter needs to calm the f—k down about the fact that two military nuclear command planes were airborne when President Donald Trump let the nation know that he and First Lady Melania Trump had tested positive for the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) .

The Navy’s E-6B planes are meant to serve as communication links between the national command authority and the U.S. nuclear forces. The planes are equipped with an airborne launch control system that allows them to launch ground-based intercontinental ballistic missiles.

Both E-6B Mercury planes were on pre-planned flights when the president tweeted about his diagnosis, defense officials said on Friday. “Any timing to the President’s announcement is purely coincidental,” said Karen Singer, a spokeswoman for U.S. Strategic Command, which is in charge of the military’s nuclear arsenal. The U.S. military has not made any changes to its alert levels, said Army Col. David Butler, a spokesman for the Joint Staff....

More details about the early E-6B plane reports in the T&P article. See also WP about Boeing E-6 Mercury aircraft and the Airborne Launch Control System.
posted by cenoxo at 10:18 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

I realize it changes nothing, but pause a moment and imagine the fallout had Michelle Obama uttered those same words about Christmas decorations.
posted by bcd at 10:18 AM on October 2, 2020 [104 favorites]

The Melania story was never going to change anyone's mind. It's lovely, but it's also what we all knew all the time, trumpists and non-trumpists alike. (Anyone who still believes Melania is a liberal victim of Trump needs to pay more attention).
Trump getting sick is something that may change the minds of some of the delusional old people who thought he knew better than doctor Fauci. Not the QAnon folks obvs, but normal old racist aunts and uncles. Not that we need one person in his base to change their minds. The important thing is to get out the vote, now.
posted by mumimor at 10:18 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

And the next plot twist: Barrett apparently had Covid and recovered earlier this summer.
posted by bcd at 10:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

"Maybe they know that they are already at the point where it can't be hidden anymore."

I don't want to get too deep into speculation, but to me, tweeting the news at one in the morning suggests that exact point. There's no good reason to release that news in the dead of night. (There's releasing news before the markets open, of course, but this is a bit much for that.) Why not wait until morning when the country is awake, unless there is a compelling and urgent reason to do it immediately?
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:27 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Per The Guardian: Donald Trump’s youngest son, Barron, 14, has tested negative for COVID-19, the White House said.

When your selfish father never spending any time with you really pays off.
posted by acb at 10:27 AM on October 2, 2020 [43 favorites]

In the jurisdiction where I do contact tracing, there are a lot of hispanic minimum wage workers who have just tested positive. As with every day, sadly, we are racing to reach them, so we can get the Cases into isolation and identify and reach their recent Contacts to get them into quarantine. That high-profile Case whom I shall not name is responsible for our having to make so many of these calls. He shall never be forgiven.
posted by PhineasGage at 10:29 AM on October 2, 2020 [31 favorites]

I think he deserves the best medical care that money can buy.
750 dollars' worth, to be precise.

How many acetaminophen tablets does that get you at insurance prices?
posted by acb at 10:29 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

- testing isn't reliable; the 'showing mild symptoms' disclosure is really interesting [My uncle: wake me when he's spotted in Buenos Aires]
- "But so-and-so is only ___ , they'd likely recover": an undisclosed pre-existing condition (or undiagnosed at time of COVID-19 infection) would alter the trajectory of this disease

Fauci Named 2020 Federal Employee of the Year by nonpartisan group (Oct. 1, 2020); Fauci to Trump: Everyone Should Wear Masks, I’m So Tired of Saying This (Vanity Fair, Oct. 1, 2020);
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:30 AM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

I guess Florida is now a blue state.
posted by gauche at 10:30 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

This potential situation is why I have always had mixed views about widespread mail-in balloting and early voting. Haven't there already been some elections where a candidate died or otherwise had to be dropped from the race between the time ballots were mailed out and election day?

posted by PhineasGage

You don't need mail-in voting for that to happen, Mel Carnahan beat John Ashcroft in the 2000 Missouri Senate race despite the handicap of being dead for 3 weeks.
posted by revgeorge at 10:32 AM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

wake me when he's spotted in Buenos Aires

Moscow, or Riyadh, surely? Possibly Pyongyang at a stretch.
posted by acb at 10:34 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

wake me when he's spotted in Buenos Aires

Moscow, or Riyadh, surely? Possibly Pyongyang at a stretch.

R'lyeh.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:36 AM on October 2, 2020 [38 favorites]

- Chris Christie says no one in the debate prep room wore masks (USA Today, today) [The former governor of NJ says his test from Tuesday was negative, and the results of his test from today will be available tomorrow. *Christie tugs on tie, mutters about respect*] Reportedly in that room: Christie, Hicks, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, former White House counselor Kellyanne Conway, campaign communications strategist Jason Miller, White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, senior adviser and the president's son-in-law Jared Kushner, press secretary Kayleigh McEnany and communications director Alyssa Farah.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:36 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

Reportedly in that room: ... White House chief of staff Mark Meadows

So, he was in a room with at least two other people who have since tested positive and he still won't wear a mask when talking to press? What an asshole.
posted by Slothrup at 10:39 AM on October 2, 2020 [18 favorites]

In case you were starting to feel bad for him.

I understand the appeal but … don’t we want to see our moral sights a bit higher than his level? I want him to suffer a trial, not a nasty disease.
posted by adamsc at 10:39 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Brief history lesson:

In 1872, candidate Horace Greeley died after the election but before the Electoral College vote. Some electoral votes for Greeley were accepted, other Greeley electors changed their votes. Greeley had already lost the popular vote to Ulysses S. Grant anyway.

In 1912, Vice-President James Sherman, who was running with then President Taft on the Republican ticket, died a few days before the election. In the electoral college vote, his electors voted for Nicholas Butler for Vice-President instead. The Republican ticket that year had no chance of winning anyway, and they came in third after Woodrow Wilson for the Democrats as the winner, and Teddy Roosevelt in second.
posted by gimonca at 10:42 AM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

Josh Rogin: GOP lawmakers who were on the plane with Trump are voting on the House floor today as if they weren't exposed. No widespread testing in the Capitol.
posted by theory at 10:45 AM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Trump’s pre-spin seems to blame military, police interactions for coronavirus diagnosis

in the hours after we learned that counselor to the president Hope Hicks had tested positive for the novel coronavirus and before we learned Trump himself had it, he offered some strange comments that seemed to lay the groundwork for how he could explain his impending diagnosis: It might have come from the military or law enforcement.

“You know, it’s very hard, when you’re with soldiers, when you’re with airmen, when you’re with Marines, and I’m with — and the police officers,” Trump said. “I’m with them so much. And when they come over here, it’s very hard to say, stay back, stay back. It’s a tough kind of a situation.”

Trump then turned to his own test and to Hicks. “So, I just went for a test, and we’ll see what happens. I mean, who knows? But you know her very well. She’s fantastic. And she’s done a great job.”

And then he again returned to the alleged potential spreaders.

“But it’s very, very hard when you are with people from the military or … law enforcement, and they come over to you, and they want to hug you, and they want to kiss you, because we really have done a good job for them,” Trump said. “And you get close, and things happen.”

I assume he'll pivot to blaming immigrants and Black people ASAP, but maybe that's just because I don't appreciate the very stable political genius of blaming your most hardcore supporters for your own obvious dumb mistakes.
posted by saturday_morning at 10:47 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

The more I think about it, the more I relish the idea of Evangelical Christians having to deal with the cognitive dissonance of believing #45 to be their infallible "savior" while also believing that G-d afflicts people with diseases as punishment for their sins...

They say #45 is divisive, and yet I never thought I'd agree with the EC's on anything...
posted by sleepingwithcats at 10:49 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Keith Edwards: 4 years ago today, Donald Trump mocks Hillary Clinton over her pneumonia outbreak.
posted by still_wears_a_hat at 10:50 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Meanwhile, conservative propaganda sources are pulling out the Greatest Hits album since Trump will be too busy for his own version of Chinese Democracy to drop this month.

Daily Caller: Migrant caravan heading towards the U.S. breaks through a police barricade and enters Guatemala illegally.
posted by delfin at 10:53 AM on October 2, 2020

Guys, I think Trump may be really sick.

1. Typically the move is to downplay a politicians illnesses. If they’re admitting to mild symptoms, that’s not a good sign.
2. He looked bad at the rally in Minnesota- gray under the makeup, out of breath, fatigued.
3. The tweet that announced the positive test was ghost written (he didn’t announce it)
4. He hasn’t been heard from or seen today, as far as I can tell.
posted by susiswimmer at 10:56 AM on October 2, 2020 [45 favorites]

Who knows. I question his status as sick so much even with these juicy tidbits coming out.

I just want the fucker out of my head forever.
posted by glaucon at 11:04 AM on October 2, 2020 [19 favorites]

When he was diagnosed, and especially when he was hospitalized, it was a bit of an "oh, shit" moment, and we all had "what if he dies" thoughts, but generally people didn't wish it on him

👋 I did!

And I wish it on Trump as well and don't feel even the slightest bit uncomfortable about saying so. Die, you worthless waste of oxygen. Just die.
posted by flabdablet at 11:05 AM on October 2, 2020 [38 favorites]

“But it’s very, very hard when you are with people from the military or … law enforcement, and they come over to you, and they want to hug you, and they want to kiss you, because we really have done a good job for them,” Trump said.

They don't even wait. When they're military or law enforcement, you let them do it. They can do anything.
posted by mochapickle at 11:06 AM on October 2, 2020 [23 favorites]

6) I don't like the prospects of a Harris versus Pence race.

Way upthread but that sounds pretty ok to me.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:06 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Reporters on twitter are saying that Biden just tested negative
posted by davedave at 11:09 AM on October 2, 2020

DiFi or Grassley who have been in close proximity to Lee at SJC meetings this week are certainly high-risk just based on their ages.

Give how old our legislators are, if this gets loose in Congress it could do a lot of damage
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:09 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

“But it’s very, very hard when you are with people from the military or … law enforcement, and they come over to you, and they want to hug you, and they want to kiss you..."

What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him? Just, like... what?
posted by hanov3r at 11:10 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Man, between “Trump has COVID” and “Jacob Wohl Indicted”, this is turning out to be some day!
posted by darkstar at 11:11 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Give how old our legislators are, if this gets loose in Congress it could do a lot of damage

If the CFR for cases older than 70 is 1 in 20, it's looking increasingly likely that member(s) of the administration will in deed die from this superspreading event(s).
posted by Dashy at 11:11 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him? Just, like... what?

It's the same group of big, strong men who come to him crying and thanking him for saving America.
posted by Fleebnork at 11:11 AM on October 2, 2020 [19 favorites]

What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him? Just, like... what?

He's talking about Hope Hicks, not himself
posted by RustyBrooks at 11:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him? Just, like... what?

They're the same large generals who come up to him and say, "Sir, nobody is better at Presidenting than you" and then start crying.

Trump wants to be the strong man that other strong men get effeminate around.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Was anyone else surprised that Melania also tested positive for CoViD-19? It didn't sound like she habitually spent enough time around President Trump to get infected.
posted by olopua at 11:13 AM on October 2, 2020 [23 favorites]

What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him

I can't speak for cops, but like, being military in uniform you can SOMETIMES give your spouse like a peck on the cheek. Public displays of affection are explicitly forbidden. I can't even imagine the chewing out I would have gotten if I had hugged someone I was on detail to, much LESS without their explicit invitation. The idea that military personnel are just randomly running up to state officials to hug them is flat out bizarre as well as a lie.
posted by corb at 11:13 AM on October 2, 2020 [41 favorites]

She has to stand next to him at super-spreader events.
posted by valkane at 11:14 AM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

Reporters on twitter are saying that Biden just tested negative

If he was exposed only three days ago he would almost certainly test negative.
posted by zixyer at 11:15 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

the idea of Evangelical Christians having to deal with the cognitive dissonance of believing #45 to be their infallible "savior" while also believing that G-d afflicts people with diseases as punishment for their sins...

If Trump dies, the EC spin would be that God actually wanted Pence. And Trump's death before Nov. 3 would probably pull in a sizable sympathy vote that could elect Pence. Then, in the EC pantheon, Trump becomes the One Who Prepared the Way for God's real choice.
posted by beagle at 11:18 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Then, in the EC pantheon, Trump becomes the One Who Prepared the Way for God's real choice.

You know, I was having a fine day...
posted by glaucon at 11:19 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

Yeah, this "tested negative" as an all-clear needs debunking, and stat. You aren't truly in the clear for like 14 days after exposure and then a negative test. This is fully known, yet everyone thinks a test today is all you need. Still very worried about Biden. 8 feet away is not far enough when someone is spitting bile at you.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:20 AM on October 2, 2020 [28 favorites]

Trump wants to be the strong man that other strong men get effeminate around.

Gender and sex and stuff is weird. Catching the end of the debate, I was struck by how Trump, who so desperately wants to come across as manly, was so obviously caked in cosmetics, which by all patriarchy, should code him as feminine, compared to Biden, who I guess had the regular TV-camera "you need makeup so you look normal on a TV camera" level of cosmetics applied, and just looked... like you would expect a septuagenarian cis/het grandpa to look like.

(shit, I chipped a nail typing that.)
posted by Rat Spatula at 11:21 AM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

Holy cow, there's a substantial amount of chatter suggesting that the WH rose garden event last week was the superspreader event - the President of Notre Dame, who was present, has also just tested positive.
posted by jquinby at 11:22 AM on October 2, 2020 [27 favorites]

While there is a little voice in the back of my head saying, “careful what you wish for” (thanks Mom)… I’m experiencing a post-Christmas Ghosts giddiness that even the “Trump’s secret plan to steal the election” speculation doesn’t harsh.

My 2 cents is that the news cycle for at least the next week will be laser focused on reporting all the new cases attributed to Patient Zero, along with what the White House knew and when. Not a good vibe for a campaign that wanted to divert attention away from its massive incompetence. I don’t think a “President bravely fights virus” storyline will overcome the headlines about the explosion of cases in rural America.

The most important thing is and has always been to GET OUT AND VOTE! And wear that mask while you are out celebrating this weekend.
posted by jabo at 11:25 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I don't think it's a hoax, because he loooooves his rallies. He wouldn't voluntarily do anything to remove himself from them, no matter how much people told him it would improve his election chances. (Nevermind safety. He believes he is impervious to danger, and nobody else's safety is relevant to him.)

I expect he's demanding his aides figure out how he can attend rallies with COVID. Just need distance, right? So he can be on stage, away from everyone? (Note: of course it doesn't occur to him that his assistants are human beings who might not want to catch the disease.) (I expect his aides to say no, hell no, it is not happening, and for him to be petulant about it.)

I don't think the pro-Pence EC vote would outweigh the losses of the personality cult who are only bothering to go to the polls to support their idol, not actually select a government.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:25 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Does "superspreader" have any scientific backing as a term? It seems to indicate a biological process either by the person having increased transmission rates or s strain being virulent. I'm not well versed in epidemiology but superspreader feels like a made up media term, similar to the 90s or even 2000s when a new drug would come on and it'd be especially dangerous when in reality it was just like better coke replacing shitty coke. Not necessarily there being a new molecule involved at all.
posted by geoff. at 11:27 AM on October 2, 2020

so obviously caked in cosmetics

To an extreme level - my theory being he was already flushed with fever. To my eyes he looked like nothing so much as British pantomime dame in the early foundational stage of makeup.
posted by Miko at 11:28 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

The fallout would be more likely to cause additional chaos than bring stability, but fuck it, I hope he suffers and dies. He is a fascist who has been openly agitating for civil war and denying the basic reality of a potentially deadly virus during a global pandemic (among other, worse things that I don't see discussed much anywhere). He deserved to catch it and he deserves to suffer and die. Over 200,000 other people have suffered and died as a direct result of his rank stupidity and deliberate, malicious mismanagement.

It is for these reasons that I hope he suffers - but then lives.

And the loses the election.

Because then on January 22nd, 2021, about ten different courts will pounce on him with different lawsuits, which he will likely lose - especially since his prior legal counsel has turned on him. And then he will go to prison.

If he dies from COVID he only suffers for a couple weeks, and much of that time he may be unconscious. But if he suffers and recovers.... he then continues to suffer in different ways, for much longer. And as far as I'm concerned, I would prefer him to have more suffering rather than less.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:30 AM on October 2, 2020 [65 favorites]

Does "superspreader" have any scientific backing as a term?

As a term, I don't know, but as a concept it seems to be very deeply studied by epidemiologists. I was reading about it in this Atlantic piece last night.
posted by Miko at 11:30 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

Good place to start reading: "Identifying and Interrupting Superspreading Events—Implications for Control of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2" -- Tom Frieden and Christopher Lee, for the CDC.
posted by Dashy at 11:31 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

For those who don't want to wish death or severe illness on someone, you could always wish for a Scrooge-like revelatory moment.

After all, it's just wishing.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:31 AM on October 2, 2020 [20 favorites]

Overdispersion and super-spreading of this virus are found in research across the globe. A growing number of studies estimate that a majority of infected people may not infect a single other person. A recent paper found that in Hong Kong, which had extensive testing and contact tracing, about 19 percent of cases were responsible for 80 percent of transmission, while 69 percent of cases did not infect another person.

-- This Overlooked Variable Is the Key to the Pandemic
posted by joeyh at 11:32 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

Yeah, this "tested negative" as an all-clear needs debunking, and stat. You aren't truly in the clear for like 14 days after exposure and then a negative test. This is fully known, yet everyone thinks a test today is all you need. Still very worried about Biden.

If nothing else, Biden having a negative test today will keep him completely in the clear of any potential claims by the right that he might have been the one who infected Trump.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 11:32 AM on October 2, 2020 [82 favorites]

I expect he's demanding his aides figure out how he can attend rallies with COVID

He hasn't even been able to hop on a conference call or tweet.

He went to a debate and a fundraising event while he had Covid, he could have gone to rallies, too... at this point I think it's not the diagnosis stopping him, it's the actual illness.
posted by rue72 at 11:33 AM on October 2, 2020 [18 favorites]

What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him? Just, like... what?

He's talking about Hope Hicks, not himself

Which is even fucking creepier, frankly, since he's basically saying that Hicks' job is to stand there, be pretty, and get pawed.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:34 AM on October 2, 2020 [33 favorites]

I also recommend the Atlantic piece that Miko just posted. It seems unclear whether "superspreader" is something you can be or something that's more of a "wrong place, wrong time" kind of thing - maybe the difference between a "superspreader" and somebody who doesn't infect anyone is just that the superspreader went to an unmasked indoor wedding and the not-superspreader stayed home.
posted by Jeanne at 11:35 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

He went to a debate and a fundraising event while he had Covid, he could have gone to rallies, too... at this point I think it's not the diagnosis stopping him, it's the actual illness

Yeah seriously, don't underestimate just how BAD even a non-life threatening case of COVID can make you feel.
posted by Gygesringtone at 11:35 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

I think the emerging understanding is that a very few people are in fact superspreaders -- something like 90% of the transmission comes from 10% of patients, or somesuch. Most people don't actually spread. A select few spread a -lot-.
posted by Dashy at 11:36 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Couple comments deleted. Let's not steer in the direction of elaborate "here's exactly how i hope he suffers" writeups, I absolutely 100% get it, but gonna ask that we not go that extra step of typing those up. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:36 AM on October 2, 2020 [27 favorites]

We could at least get the phrase "plague-ridden White House" into the public arena.
posted by Grangousier at 11:37 AM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

don't underestimate just how BAD even a non-life threatening case of COVID can make you feel.

I believe that I had it, before it was known to be in my area and before testing was widespread, and it was worse than the worst flu I've ever had. I was basically bed (or couch)-ridden for 8 days, bleary, feverish, with a fatigue that beat all. I couldn't read, watch tv, or functionally deal with social media. So if he's anywhere near that sick, he's laying low.
posted by Miko at 11:38 AM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

If anyone deserves the sobriquet Superspreader-in-Chief, it's him.
posted by valkane at 11:39 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Zeynep Tufecki, who wrote the Atlantic article linked above, explained on twitter:

Did you know that *study after study* finds most people don't seem to transmit COVID at all? That a small percent is responsible for almost all infections? That R is not that informative? My new piece on why this may be key to controlling the pandemic.
...
New paper from India, tracing ~500K contacts for ~85,000 cases. They did not find a single positive contact for 70.7% of infected people. Zero! About 5% accounted for 80% of transmission—not in my piece because it's out today! That's overdispersion. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/09/29/science.abd7672.full

Here's her July article on ventilation.
posted by Dashy at 11:41 AM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

The whole timeline makes no sense. If he started showing symptoms Wednesday, he must surely have tested positive earlier since he's tested daily.

That would mean that he was out doing maskless F2F events knowing full well that he was contagious. And I would not not believe that for a moment.
posted by sjswitzer at 11:42 AM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

FWIW, the exact distance between Trump and Biden podiums at debate was 12 feet, 8 inches

It hardly matters if you've been in a closed room with someone screaming for 90 minutes. Let's hope the ventilation was adequate.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:42 AM on October 2, 2020 [22 favorites]

About that New Jersey fundraiser: GOP donors 'freaking out' after coming close to Trump at fundraiser hours before his positive Covid-19 test (Brian Schwartz for CNBC, via MSN).

Republican Senators aren't the only demographic getting close to him in the past few days that skew older and male and higher risk.
posted by kristi at 11:42 AM on October 2, 2020 [23 favorites]

Sure, he was positive sooner. He just didn't tell anyone.

Like Biden, who he stood shouting at for 90 minutes.
posted by Dashy at 11:43 AM on October 2, 2020 [20 favorites]

Also upthread:

"An abundance of caution" is the new "Now more than ever."

It was enormously popular this spring, when various institutions suspended in-person activities and headed online.
posted by doctornemo at 11:45 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Moscow, or Riyadh, surely? Possibly Pyongyang at a stretch.

R'lyeh.

Not to get all NIMBY here but leave our sunken isles the fuck out of your messes, please and thank you.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:47 AM on October 2, 2020 [83 favorites]

he's basically saying that Hicks' job is to stand there, be pretty, and get pawed.

Far as Trump's concerned, that's every woman's job.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:50 AM on October 2, 2020 [53 favorites]

Sure, he was positive sooner. He just didn't tell anyone.

Like Biden, who he stood shouting at for 90 minutes.

I'd say "lawsuit," but his broke ass is judgement proof. So I guess just straight to criminal charges then.
posted by rue72 at 11:52 AM on October 2, 2020

And as far as I'm concerned, I would prefer him to have more suffering rather than less.

I have zero confidence that Trump will suffer any legal, financial, jail, anything consequences. Him getting this disease may literally be the only suffering he does.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:52 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

The whole timeline makes no sense.

It does once you realize it was written by Dan Brown.
posted by srboisvert at 11:53 AM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

From Dr. Chuck Tingle: i will not pass judgement or stoop to the level of a scoundrel, but i will say that tromp is now showing how important it is to wear mask and to be responsible for yourself and your buds in fight against virus. i hope his followers see this. that is what i can say
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:54 AM on October 2, 2020 [44 favorites]

It hardly matters if you've been in a closed room with someone screaming for 90 minutes. Let's hope the ventilation was adequate.

For whatever it's worth, it's literally a brand new building, and it's pretty big. Here's a local news clip that shows some of the set up, you can get an idea of the size.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:55 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

It does once you realize it was written by Dan Brown.

TOGETHER

TO GET HER
posted by tilde at 11:56 AM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Right now, The Guardian live blog has both Trump and Melania with symptoms. (I'm not linking because I can't find the direct link)
posted by mumimor at 11:57 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Sounds like someone wasn’t taking his bleach.

Some days it's all about doomscrolling.
posted by nickyskye at 11:58 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

3. The tweet that announced the positive test was ghost written (he didn’t announce it)

I thought it was kind of odd that the tweet actually called it "COVID-19" and nothing typically Trumpian like 'The China Virus'.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:00 PM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

If he started showing symptoms Wednesday, he must surely have tested positive earlier since he's tested daily.

Amphetamine-heavy cold remedy would explain a lot about his unhinged (even by his own standards) performance at Tuesday's debate.
posted by Rumple at 12:01 PM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

Capt. Renault: From Dr. Chuck Tingle: i will not pass judgement or stoop to the level of a scoundrel, but i will say that tromp is now showing how important it is to wear mask and to be responsible for yourself and your buds in fight against virus. i hope his followers see this. that is what i can say

Waiting for this ebook, then:

Pounded in the ACE-2 Receptors By My Unwillingness to Accept Evidence-Based Epidemological Guidance.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:06 PM on October 2, 2020 [124 favorites]

If we want to call Trump a liar (we do, we do), then let's say he's been lying about *not* having Covid at least since the debate.

Like why are we acting skeptical that a 74 year old man who regularly attends large gatherings without a mask has caught coronavirus? It was a near inevitability.
posted by muddgirl at 12:09 PM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

Coronavirus test used by White House has questionable accuracy

Abbot ID now identifies about 75% of positive samples. Probably more likely to miss early infections. So it's not unlikely he passed one or two daily tests. That this test is the entirity of the WH's covid prevention strategy is just more incompetance, of course.
posted by joeyh at 12:10 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

I mean, I don’t know what makes Michael Moore think he’s offering some kind of bleeding edge perspective on this. Pretty much every reasonable person upon hearing this news has had to consider that it might be a lie. And probably all of them are holding that thought in their heads alongside the equally real possibility that there will be a Trump obit thread up within a week.
posted by wabbittwax at 12:11 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

If Trump was in quarantine today but not feeling that poorly, he'd be tweeting nonstop. It's a compulsion because he needs to be the center of attention no matter what.

Therefore I conclude that he is feeling too poorly to tweet, which is very poorly indeed. I believe he's actually pretty sick.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 12:11 PM on October 2, 2020 [50 favorites]

Being too sick to Tweet, especially for him, is really sick. Imagine not even being willing/able to put up some generic chatter or comment on what's on Fox, just to reassure the base.
posted by Miko at 12:13 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

I don't really have much to say, but this Joni Mitchell song has been stuck in my head all day.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:13 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Yeah. Trump's not lying, he's got it. Illness is weakness and weakness is for losers. He wouldn't cop to it if he didn't have to.

Of course, the rest of the Moore et al. theory is true – now that Trump's got it, he'll milk it for sympathy (of course), and if he has a mild case he'll use it to downplay the virus (of course), and the Dems will probably do some boneheaded thing like slow their campaigning out of fairness and decency, etc. etc. etc.

But dude's got the virus.
posted by Beardman at 12:13 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Unless it's just a full on shouting match/shitshow over there today, circular firing squad, which I bet it also is.
posted by Miko at 12:14 PM on October 2, 2020

Deleted Breitbart link and some followups, let's not.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:14 PM on October 2, 2020 [22 favorites]

I believe he's actually pretty sick.

I think the WH Press Office says he was exhibiting 'mild symptoms' which probably means he's already being ventilated.
posted by PenDevil at 12:15 PM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

Trump has tested positive for COVID-19. A look at where he's traveled (USA Today) Trump, 74, is known for staying busy and traveling around the country for both work and play. But he was especially active these past seven days, including hosting rallies, taking part in the debate, and introducing his Supreme Court nominee...
Golf, fundraisers, rallies, photo ops; Hannity, evangelical leaders, Latinos for Trump during a roundtable at Doral, Comey Barrett (and her seven kids) in the Rose Garden plus Bill Barr and various politicians. On Saturday night, "the president and first lady hosted a reception of Gold Star families at the White House." Me, in the Tuesday thread:

their next debate's in Miami, the final one's in Nashville
b/c everyone loves a free-range septuagenarian
it's downright heartening in this pandemic
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:15 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

"Superspreading" is an activity, not an identity. Whether there are biological/physiological factors that affect whether one is capable of being a superspreader is an empirical question for each illness, but behavioral factors are always involved. If you stay home and don't infect anyone, you're not a superspreader, regardless of any biological factors with you or the pathogen you carry. From an epidemiological perspective, a superspreader is just someone who transmits a disease much more than the average person does.
posted by biogeo at 12:16 PM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

For those thinking about Trump-health scenarios, I thought of three:

1. Trump gets sick and dies before the election
2. Trump gets sick but survives and recovers
3. Trump gets sick but only partially recovers

1. Pandemonium with the election as now a lot of voting already happened. The GOP successfully gets all votes that mark Trump as going to Pence instead but a lot of the Trumpiest supporters sit out the election, their golden calf toppled, the death deflating them. Biden wins in a landslide, but the GOP argues that it wasn't a referendum on Trump or conservativism but rather a one-off.
2. Trump roars back to life but the event took him off the campaign trail and complicated his messaging horribly. It doesn't engender sympathy as many folks chalk it up to karma. Trump loses as he is projected to lose, now even weaker in relative position in the GOP. In two years, the GOP blames him for the COVID-19 deaths.
3. Trump is permanently disabled by COVID, needing constant medical intervention to survive. His strongman persona evaporates and Proud Boys, etc, try to get his weakness from infecting the rest of the alt-right fascist movement. The GOP uses him to inspire sympathy, but he also is a badge of their shame, even if they don't say it. He lingers on for a few years, his magic completely spent, a frail reminder of a dark presidency.

Scenario 2 is most likely, of course. I'm hoping that the entire presidency fails and we reorganize into a truly democratic society, but that's just me. None of these scenarios help Trump win an election, and his being sidelined actually make his attempt at fuckery with the voting less likely.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:17 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Speaker Pelosi contacted by White House regarding continuity of government.
posted by cmfletcher at 12:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [42 favorites]

Jesus.
posted by Happy Dave at 12:20 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I think the WH Press Office says he was exhibiting 'mild symptoms' which probably means he's already being ventilated.

Basically: look back at how the British Government handled Boris Johnson's illness and assume that the White House will lie even more. Johnson had "mild symptoms" and was taken to hospital "for tests". And he nearly died.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:21 PM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

Sooooo much to unpack.

Succession. At what point will Pence be allowed to take control? Trump won't allow it, for sure.

Election. Imagine the possibilities. Can an intubated candidate concede? Should any debate take place face to face?

SCOTUS. If 51 GOP Senators cannot meet, no quorum. No vote. Watch this space.

Lawsuits. Negligence anyone? Those donors he met with...maybe this is a bridge too far...

Legislative. When do you lock it down?

News. Can the WH trace the exposure? Have they? Will they? Is the charade now in the light?

Let alone the normal secret recordings, tax fraud, troop hating, Roe v Wade reversal news cycle. Fucking unreal.
posted by zerobyproxy at 12:21 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

>a superspreader is just someone who transmits a disease much more than the average person does

IM not scientific O my impression is superspreaders are people who just can't keep their idiot moufs shut when out in public
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:22 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

The fact that he hasn't tweeted all day is downright bizarre.
posted by gwint at 12:23 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

At what point will Pence be allowed to take control? Trump won't allow it, for sure.

There's no allowing. Pence + the Cabinet can do it (on a short term basis) on their own. If Trump is incommunicado, this is easier, but it's not necessary.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:24 PM on October 2, 2020

I see no way in which he doesn't spin this to rally his supporters, making them believe it's a positive thing, unless he quickly ends up intubated until election day.

It's a good thing he doesn't look anything like Kevin Kline.
posted by hanov3r at 12:25 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Can an intubated candidate concede?

Frankly, Trump is more likely to concede while intubated than not.
posted by swift at 12:26 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

The fact that he hasn't tweeted all day is downright bizarre.

It is downright refreshing and something of a relief. Would you want a thinks-he-might-be-dying Trump to have access to a public medium?

"CHINA DID THIS TO ME. AVENGE ME. THE TIME TO STAND BY HAS ENDED. ARREST ALL REFRIGERATORS, AS ANTIFA CANNOT FUNCTION WITHOUT THEM. TAKE US TO DEFCON-3. SAD!"
posted by delfin at 12:26 PM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

Johnson had "mild symptoms" and was taken to hospital "for tests". And he nearly died.

Larry Kudlow just upgraded it to a "very moderate case", so I guess Melania is busy sending out emails to designers for something "Jackie O but with a modern twist".
posted by PenDevil at 12:28 PM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

Can an intubated candidate concede?

My cousin was put in an induced coma to get intubated. So no?
posted by Max Power at 12:29 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Speaker Pelosi contacted by White House regarding continuity of government.

That’s probably just because they may not know that it’s the VP who takes over. Not a bunch of bright guys, etc.
posted by Melismata at 12:29 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

This is the procedure for Pence to take over in an acting capacity against Trump's wishes. Trump can make this difficult by saying "nuh uh, I am actually fine" and force Congress to certify it no less than 21 days later.

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Alternatively, Trump could write a letter to Congress saying that Pence is Acting President, and then take the reigns back with another letter. This is what a normal President would do if he was very sick or undergoing planned surgery etc.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:31 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

"Very moderate case". In other words, extremely average, extra medium, incredibly normal.
posted by zixyer at 12:31 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

Larry Kudlow just upgraded it to a "very moderate case", Kudlow? **rolls eyes** Did anyone expect him to say anything else?
posted by robbyrobs at 12:34 PM on October 2, 2020

NYTimes: Why Should We Believe Trump Has the Virus?

Researchers at Cornell University published a study this week showing that Mr. Trump was the single largest driver of false and misleading information about the coronavirus. Mentions of Mr. Trump made up nearly 38 percent of the overall “misinformation conversation,” the researchers said.

Mr. Trump has also stated on at least 34 separate occasions since February that the coronavirus would go away.

“We’re in an environment where conspiracies are thriving, in part because the president encourages them,” said Melissa Ryan, chief executive of Card Strategies, a consulting firm that researches disinformation. “And we have a White House comms operation that gives the press and public disinformation constantly.”

The situation has created “the perfect storm for people to assume that the White House isn’t being truthful,” Ms. Ryan said.

posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:35 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

So about Barrett... the article linked upthread said “She is following CDC guidance and best practices, including social distancing, wearing face coverings, and frequently washes hands” but this was also posted under a photo of her mask-less with 45 looming over her shoulder. So yeah I have a lot of faith that the statement is true.

It keeps happening and it was only a matter of time for the conservatives in power. Take as an example the outdoor gathering at the White House with mask-less idiots hugging each other and standing shoulder to shoulder. They bring the repercussions on themselves. They were warned, they chose not to believe the warnings. I have a very hard time feeling any sympathy. Their money kept them mostly safe for a while but life finds a way, right?
posted by caution live frogs at 12:36 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Larry Kudlow just upgraded it to a "very moderate case"

Looking up 'moderate covid symptoms' I came across this:

13. If you talk to others, nobody thinks you are confused or not making sense.

So… an improvement?
posted by mazola at 12:36 PM on October 2, 2020 [22 favorites]

I don't think he has it at all.
posted by Kitchen Witch at 12:37 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Multiple QAnon supporters highlighted what they saw as a hidden message in Trump’s own tweet confirming his positive test. The accounts pointed to the word “together” suggesting what Trump really meant was “to get her” in reference to Hillary Clinton.

HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA
posted by chavenet at 12:37 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Brian Kilmeade: Now Trump Has Time To Study For Second Debate
If you are looking for some comic relief today, go no further than Fox and Friends.
posted by robbyrobs at 12:38 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Larry Kudlow just upgraded it to a "very moderate case"

Kudlow is the same individual who kept pushing hydroxychloroquine over the protest of Dr. Fauci, which ended up killing some people. He is probably not a reliable source for WH medical updates.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:38 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

34 times Trump said the coronavirus would go away (WaPo)
posted by gwint at 12:38 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

As nothing is normal, I'd say Ivanka and Jared are going to be in the room with Pence making sure he doesn't remember how to be ethical/moral. I cannot imagine a normal transfer of authority to Pence. Never. I know how it is supposed to work and should work but I won't bank on it.
posted by zerobyproxy at 12:39 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Pence is an idiot and a Bible thumping one at that. Even a number of Indiana republicans were thrilled to finally get his dumb ass out of Indiana
posted by robbyrobs at 12:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

“the perfect storm for people to assume that the White House isn’t being truthful,

The problem with liars is, sometimes they say something true, but you can never be sure if that's happening.
posted by emjaybee at 12:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Assuming this isn't a hoax, Covid-19 symptoms include serious neurological damage, which can cause delirium, confusion, agitation, and disorientation. I hope the US military is keeping this in mind, given the single point of control for firing nuclear weapons.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:43 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Drunk History - Edith Wilson: The First Female President
posted by robbyrobs at 12:44 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Speaker Pelosi contacted by White House regarding continuity of government.
posted by cmfletcher at 3:18 PM on 10/2
That tweet was six hours old when you posted it. In this kind of a situation, it seems we'ed have heard more by now if there was some concern she actually had to take over. And I do believe that pence is not ill as of this moment.
posted by NorthernLite at 12:44 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

"very moderate case"

I... don't think that's a thing. Moderacy is one of the few things it's difficult to possess an abundance of. OTOH, this White House has yet to see an adjective it didn't want to spice up with a superlative, so it's not surprising they can say things like this with a straight face.
posted by jackbishop at 12:45 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Yeah, I think we all know Trump is about to die.
posted by swift at 12:45 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Covid-19 symptoms include serious neurological damage, including delirium, confusion, agitation, and disorientation.

So you're saying this disease could've been living in someone for decades?
posted by Apocryphon at 12:47 PM on October 2, 2020 [20 favorites]

The movie they make about this in ten years is going to be wild. Assuming there’s still movies.
posted by Happy Dave at 12:48 PM on October 2, 2020 [23 favorites]

The problem with liars is, sometimes they say something true, but you can never be sure if that's happening.

We should have a childhood story or parable or something warning us of this danger.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 12:49 PM on October 2, 2020 [94 favorites]

And Trump's death before Nov. 3 would probably pull in a sizable sympathy vote that could elect Pence.

trumpism is a personality cult and generally, within cults of personality, fealty to the leader is not easily transferrable to his subordinates—especially if a particular subordinate has all the charisma and appeal of an unripe potato.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:49 PM on October 2, 2020 [35 favorites]

The whole timeline makes no sense. If he started showing symptoms Wednesday, he must surely have tested positive earlier since he's tested daily.

I doubt he's being tested daily. I just had a COVID test yesterday - the up-the-nose kind - and my roommate pointed out that "Trump's such a manbaby, do you really think he'd put up with that on a daily basis?"

....My roommate's pithy reaction to the declaration that Trump had a "very moderate" case - ten seconds of blinking followed by, "....oh, fuck, he's dying."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:50 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

So you're saying this disease could've been living in someone for decades?

I think Nature meant a level of damage above background.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:51 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?
posted by zutphen at 12:52 PM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?

Par for the course.
posted by valkane at 12:53 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

- Chris Christie says no one in the debate prep room wore masks
And then after the debate Chris Christie went on I forget which goddamn show and sat around a big round table with aaaaaallllll the other pundits a-punditing his fool head off for, whatever, two hours. Why doesn't anybody act right e v e r? Fuuuuuu...ck!

What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?
! That is totally what will happen. First holo prez!
posted by Don Pepino at 12:53 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?

We'll have to ask JFK Jr.
posted by Max Power at 12:54 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Then the Producers presidency becomes the Weekend At Bernie's presidency.
posted by acb at 12:54 PM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?

There'll be sightings, like Elvis, for the next 30-40 years.
posted by jquinby at 12:54 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

AP, via Twitter: Official says masks will still not be mandatory at the White House, even after president tested positive for the virus. The official described facial coverings as “a personal choice,” despite overwhelming evidence that they help stop spread of virus.

Fucking hell. Absolute refusal to learn anything.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:55 PM on October 2, 2020 [42 favorites]

Kudlow is the same individual who kept pushing hydroxychloroquine over the protest of Dr. Fauci, which ended up killing some people. He is probably not a reliable source for WH medical updates.

Kudlow is spectacularly good at saying things are fine when they're about to be terrible, and vice versa. If he says something is fine, it's time to run out of the building because it's probably on fire.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:56 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

No tweets more likely means he's absorbing the media today to unleash a flurry of tweets tomorrow at 6am, or late evening today..
posted by rainy at 12:56 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I'll take Sacha "John Barron" Cohen in the Trump suit over Pence until January.
posted by cmfletcher at 12:57 PM on October 2, 2020

So I know it's a slow news week and all, but just wanted to remind everyone that NYT published the article about Trump's tax returns 5 days ago.
posted by piyushnz at 12:57 PM on October 2, 2020 [40 favorites]

Covid-19 symptoms include serious neurological damage, which can cause delirium, confusion, agitation, and disorientation.

I'll just reference Dorothy Parker commenting on the demise of Calvin Coolidge and say: "How can they tell?"
posted by gimonca at 12:57 PM on October 2, 2020 [29 favorites]

I think it's very unlikely that this is fake:

- there are multiple reports that he appeared ill yesterday
- other people who have been around him recently (Hope Hicks, the Notre Dame guy) have tested positive
- this makes him look weak and unhealthy, while he's obsessed with appearing strong and invincible
- this focuses media attention on COVID, a topic he's been downplaying and trying to avoid talking about whenever possible

This is a guy who would be on TV 24 hours a day, if he could. If he doesn't appear in public or at least on camera today, it's likely that he's seriously ill.

Great night to (re)watch The Death of Stalin on Netflix.
posted by theodolite at 12:58 PM on October 2, 2020 [29 favorites]

"That tweet was six hours old when you posted it. In this kind of a situation, it seems we'd have heard more by now if there was some concern she actually had to take over. And I do believe that pence is not ill as of this moment."

I recall articles from previous elections that describe the process required to transition between administrations. It is complicated and time consuming. I believe it's already underway by now, even before they know whether it will be required.

So, even if all that's happened is someone's decided that there's a slightly elevated chance of a transition to Pelosi, I wouldn't be surprised if that kicks off some additional procedures.
posted by bfields at 12:58 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

So I know it's a slow news week and all, but just wanted to remind everyone that NYT published the article about Trump's tax returns 5 days ago.

That's, what, half a scaramucci?
posted by acb at 12:59 PM on October 2, 2020 [29 favorites]

No tweets more likely means he's absorbing the media today to unleash a flurry of tweets tomorrow at 6am, or late evening today.. I tend to agree..He (Trump) does not know really what to say. "Its a hoax" or " I'm fighting covid with every everything available"
????
posted by robbyrobs at 1:00 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

So, even if all that's happened is someone's decided that there's a slightly elevated chance of a transition to Pelosi, I wouldn't be surprised if that kicks off some additional procedures.

Yeah, I mean, there are still a few relatively normal civil servants running around, and if I were a relatively normal civil servant and the president had an illness which could turn very serious very fast and the vice president had been exposed to the same illness, I'd be getting all my ducks in a row just in case. If anything it's a good sign, because it suggests that someone in the background with the ability to act has enough brains to worry about actually running the country.
posted by Frowner at 1:01 PM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

Great night to (re)watch The Death of Stalin on Netflix.

Armando Iannuci has an incredible knack for distilling the venality, self-interest, manic energy and sheer ineptitude of politicians in crisis mode. Hopefully it doesn’t end in people getting shot in courtyards and doused in petrol though.
posted by Happy Dave at 1:03 PM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

Seeing this infographic about all the people Hope Hicks was around. Basically all Trump's kids and hangers-on. Giuliani (on the list) just reported he tested negative, but hey, early days.
posted by emjaybee at 1:04 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Hopefully it doesn’t end in people getting shot in courtyards and doused in petrol though.

As evidenced by Beria's career, this isn't always the worst thing that can happen for a country, truthfully.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 1:05 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Eric Feigl-Ding linked to a picture of what seems to have been the superspreading even on Saturday, with known positives circled.

Looks like Pence and Barr are up front. And Kelly-Anne.
posted by Dashy at 1:05 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?

Trump is neither Lazarus nor Jesus. A three-day open casket service under the Capitol Dome will confirm this.
posted by cenoxo at 1:07 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

It's like the group photo that killed the whole royal family in King Ralph
(I do not recommend you watch King Ralph)
posted by Countess Elena at 1:07 PM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

Hoping so hard for the "President Pelosi nominates Merrick Garland" headline.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:09 PM on October 2, 2020 [35 favorites]

Continuity of government is something taken very seriously. While the contact to Pelosi isn’t exactly a common occurrence, this is the type of thing they get well in front of before it gets to the point where this is a major possibility. It likely does not get to that point, but if at all possible they want to avoid a cold transfer.
posted by azpenguin at 1:10 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

If Pence assumes duties of President sometime soon, who would be a senate tie-breaker vote?
posted by JenMarie at 1:11 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

I'm also seeing several tweets about several known positives and cases in the press corps, both journalists and WH people.
posted by Dashy at 1:11 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Pence apparently still intends to go to Salt Lake to prep for the VP debate. I hope Kamala's team has some response prepared, because being in a room with him seems like a bad idea.
posted by emjaybee at 1:12 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

The President Contracting COVID-19 Is A Major National Security Crisis

"It is in this uncharted territory that America's increasingly belligerent adversaries could decide to act, taking advantage of weaknesses in the U.S. military and foreign policy decision-making chain of command."

I LOL'd at that one. It hasn't been weak for 3.5 years?

"At the same time, we must be aware that aside from the handful of people that follow global military patterns very carefully, everything will look like something ominous and new, even though it may be business as usual. In other words, expect a large serving of hyperbole, fear-mongering, and poor analysis on strategic events in the days to come."

Accurate self-own.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:13 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

In 25th Amendment Acting President land, Pence stays the tie-breaking vote because he remains Vice President and President of the Senate.

If Trump dies, there’s no tie breaker because the House has to approve a replacement VP, and won’t do so.
posted by MattD at 1:15 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

I LOL'd at that one. It hasn't been weak for 3.5 years?

Indeed, it has—yet not as weak as it is right at this moment.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:15 PM on October 2, 2020

Could President Trump receive an experimental coronavirus treatment? Should he?
posted by robbyrobs at 1:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Contacting Pelosi about a transfer of power could also just refer to preparations in the event they need to have Pence take over while Trump is in the hospital, and seems more likely to be what that's about. I don't think this points to an imminent transfer of power to the Speaker.
posted by biogeo at 1:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

If Pence assumes duties of President sometime soon, who would be a senate tie-breaker vote?

IMU, there isn't one. The President Pro Tempore presides and no one has a tiebreaker vote. In a case of a tie, I believe there is no majority so the measure would fail.

From: Office of the Vice President

I LOL'd at that one. It hasn't been weak for 3.5 years?

Indeed, it has—yet not as weak as it is right at this moment.

What is the risk? That no one is authorized to act? Hasn't Trump already authorized Pence to do so ... ? I'm missing it... thanks for any help explaining it.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

There'll be sightings, like Elvis, for the next 30-40 years.
I could easily imagine this happening, Trump becoming part of the semiotic landscape of the US in that random way US mythologies aggregate.
He's seen coming out of a UFO in New Mexico; his face appears once a year on a Yosemite cliff-face, but only in purple neon light; legends say that if you chant his name three times in front of an atm your bank balance will disappear.
It's a kind of afterlife I suppose.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

He's seen coming out of a UFO in New Mexico; his face appears once a year on a Yosemite cliff-face, but only in purple neon light; legends say that if you chant his name three times in front of an atm your bank balance will disappear.
It's a kind of afterlife I suppose.

"There's no such thing as bad publicity."
posted by deadaluspark at 1:21 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

serious neurological damage, including delirium, confusion, agitation, and disorientation

So, like in Tuesday's debate?
posted by Miko at 1:22 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Chris Wallace confirmed that the Trump family arrived late at Sunday’s debate to avoid being tested by the Cleveland Clinic as required by the venue’s rules. Criminal negligence.

Original tweet
Additional tweet
Here Wallace is tearing Dr Atlas a new one
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 1:25 PM on October 2, 2020 [80 favorites]

And Trump's death before Nov. 3 would probably pull in a sizable sympathy vote that could elect Pence

I’ve seen more than one conservative meme contrasting the duo of Biden and Harris, noted scary ethnic woman, with Trump alone, sans Pence. Trump is the savior. I think the most enthusiastic Trump supporters actually don’t give a shit about Pence. He represents an old political standard they have little interest in.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:26 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

if I were him I'd be demanding a dose right now.

I called it. The WH says they've already started him on Regeneron's antibodies.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:26 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

I wouldn't put it past them to have purposefully tried to infect Biden by bringing as many possible infection vectors into the building as possible.
posted by deadaluspark at 1:27 PM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

Chris Wallace confirmed that the Trump family arrived late at Sunday’s debate to avoid being tested by the Cleveland Clinic as required by the venue’s rules. Criminal negligence.

Should say Tuesday, I think the typo is confusing things.
posted by JenMarie at 1:27 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

speaking of families
posted by robbyrobs at 1:29 PM on October 2, 2020

as far as I'm concerned, I would prefer him to have more suffering rather than less

I couldn't possibly give fewer shits how much suffering the fucker has to endure. What I care about is having him become as irrelevant as possible as fast as possible. The longer people keep feeling a need to react to what Trump said today instead of getting on with fixing the damage he's already done, the worse off we all stay.
posted by flabdablet at 1:29 PM on October 2, 2020 [25 favorites]

w/r/t that Chris Wallace thing, I don't know who Scenario Lens is. Does anyone have a link to Wallace actually saying that?
posted by Miko at 1:29 PM on October 2, 2020

Also wondering:

- Who is taking care of Barron?
- What happens to mail-in ballots if one of the people listed on them dies before election day?
- Can the Supreme Court hold sessions if one of its members has COVID?
- Can we skip the public funerals? You know, because of COVID?
posted by swift at 1:31 PM on October 2, 2020

That commentary from Wallace may be the first thing I've ever seen on Fox news I completely agree with! Strange times.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 1:32 PM on October 2, 2020

Wallace is so adorable whenever he tries to look like you can work for Fucks News and still be a journalist.
posted by flabdablet at 1:33 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

- Who is taking care of Barron?

Have you ever seen Home Alone 2?
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:33 PM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

What is the risk? That no one is authorized to act? Hasn't Trump already authorized Pence to do so ... ? I'm missing it... thanks for any help explaining it.

The national security implications of the White House coronavirus outbreak and Will Trump’s Case of Covid Endanger U.S. National Security? might be useful or informative. I certainly agree with you that to now, it's been awful. This diagnosis seems to make matters even worse.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:33 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Barron has grown up with nannies. He's used to it.
posted by mumimor at 1:34 PM on October 2, 2020 [17 favorites]

It would be just like Trump to rob us of the chance, as a nation, to pass a resounding referendum on all the vile, corrupt, malignant moral bankruptcy he represents. We have fucking earned the right to vote against the horror of the Trump presidency.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 1:35 PM on October 2, 2020 [27 favorites]

Can the Supreme Court hold sessions if one of its members has COVID?

Yes, they pretty much get to set their own rules. Sometimes Justices recuse themselves anyway. 8 justices heard a bunch of cases while Merrick Garland was being blocked.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:36 PM on October 2, 2020

w/r/t that Chris Wallace thing, I don't know who Scenario Lens is. Does anyone have a link to Wallace actually saying that?

Starts at about 2:00 in the video embedded in this tweet.
posted by iceberg273 at 1:36 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

The medical guidance for Contacts of someone who has tested positive for COVID-19 is
1. quarantine immediately for 14 days
2. get tested not earlier than 7 days after your last exposure to the Index Case.
posted by PhineasGage at 1:36 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Here's the source video for the Chris Wallace assertion.
posted by Miko at 1:36 PM on October 2, 2020

Hasn't Trump already authorized Pence to do so

Not officially. He would need to notify Congress that Pence is Acting President. That would be public. He hasn't.

He might have told people to do what Pence says, but legally speaking Pence is not the guy in charge, he is. Pence isn't authorized by law to issue executive orders or command the military.

would it be the case that someone would inherit that debt

People don't inherit debt. His estate would pay the debt by liquidating his assets. If it runs out of assets, his inheritors are quite unhappy (no inheritance) but the debt itself is still the estate's.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Here's A Running List Of False And Misleading Information About Trump's Coronavirus Diagnosis (Buzzfeed).

It's being updated at the above URL throughout the day by Jane Lytvynenko ( her Twitter feed is here )
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Question... Regarding the old news about tax returns and the looming $400 million plus debt coming due, would it be the case that someone would inherit that debt, and then have to face the Russian etc. goons out to break legs over the debt?

Legally, probably no, but with Russian Mafia probably yes. They'll make someone bleed for that money.
posted by deadaluspark at 1:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Question... Regarding the old news about tax returns and the looming $400 million plus debt coming due, would it be the case that someone would inherit that debt, and then have to face the Russian etc. goons out to break legs over the debt?

What the goons would do is something they'd decide, so no one knows. However, legally, no one inherits the debt. The creditors would have to go after the estate if there's no other co-signers. (Assuming the loans are under his name only and not under the Trump Org.)
posted by azpenguin at 1:42 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

COVID-19 at the White House
This chart will be updated as new reports are confirmed.
posted by robbyrobs at 1:43 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

FiveThirtyEight article: How Have People Responded To Other Political Leaders Getting COVID-19?

FiveThirtyEight chat: How Will Trump’s Positive COVID-19 Test Affect The Election?
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:43 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I’ve seen more than one conservative meme contrasting the duo of Biden and Harris, noted scary ethnic woman, with Trump alone, sans Pence. Trump is the savior. I think the most enthusiastic Trump supporters actually don’t give a shit about Pence. He represents an old political standard they have little interest in.

While not disagreeing with you, I think the concern is there are plenty of habitually Republican voters who have been turned off by Trump because he's a crude asshole. Having a "normal" calm Republican like Pence gives them cover and/or willingness to vote for him. (Yes, he's a scary Handmaid's Tale Evangelical with no charisma and was about to get dumped from the Indiana Governor's chair, but knowledge of that is not nearly as obvious and widespread as Trump's assholery.) It could be a "lose a handful of rabid MAGAts, gain a bunch of wafflers" situation.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:44 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

Trump probably has enough assets to liquidate that his estate would be able to pay the debt off anyway. He may not have much cash but he has a lot of real estate that's still worth a lot.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:45 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Who is taking care of Barron?
He's 14... he's probably playing Fortnite.
posted by Gray Duck at 1:46 PM on October 2, 2020 [29 favorites]

With regards to whether the WH reaches out to Pelosi’s office, a little refresher on Section 3 of the 25th:

Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.
posted by susiswimmer at 1:47 PM on October 2, 2020

he has a lot of real estate that's still worth a lot

Eh, maybe not worth quite so much in the covid-19 era -- haven't they been having trouble selling the DC hotel?
posted by aramaic at 1:47 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Same person that always takes care of him, I guess. My guess is he has a nanny and only sees his family on court occasions.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:48 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

Has Graydon Carter tweeted his thoughts and prayers yet?
posted by Beardman at 1:48 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Trump’s infection, outlook with COVID-19 and the likelihood of White House spread

The data solidly suggests that at least Trump and Hicks have exposed many White House staff, officials, and supporters to the pandemic coronavirus this week. The two both traveled to a rally in Minnesota Wednesday, and the president attended a fundraiser in New Jersey on Thursday, at which he reportedly came in contact with about 100 people.

Some good links to a meta-analysis article on spreading and rates and some other info in this article, but not much new for this thread.
posted by Snowishberlin at 1:49 PM on October 2, 2020

A student petition is calling on Notre Dame's president to resign.
Father John Jenkins attended the ceremony for Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett on Saturday.
His decision to shake hands with people there and not wear a mask caused outrage for some Notre Dame students, who have been following strict campus coronavirus rules so closely.
posted by robbyrobs at 1:50 PM on October 2, 2020 [56 favorites]

NYT:

The president, who said early Friday morning that he had tested positive for the virus, has a low-grade fever, nasal congestion and a cough, according to two people close to Mr. Trump.

He has received a single infusion of a promising experimental treatment: an antibody cocktail developed by the biotech company Regeneron, according to a memo from his doctor, Dr. Sean P. Conley. Mr. Trump is also taking vitamin D, zinc, melatonin, a daily aspirin and famotidine (an antacid better known as Pepcid), the memo said.

“As of this afternoon, the president remains fatigued but in good spirits,” the memo said.
posted by Beardman at 1:51 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Covid-19 symptoms include serious neurological damage, which can cause delirium, confusion, agitation, and disorientation.

I'll just reference Dorothy Parker commenting on the demise of Calvin Coolidge and say: "How can they tell?"

One of the earliest signs of a Covid infection is suffering from a complete lack of taste, but uh how could they tell?
posted by Lanark at 1:52 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

He has received a single infusion of a promising experimental treatment: an antibody cocktail developed by the biotech company Regeneron

Pardon my ignorance but I don't know if there is grift there, too?
posted by Snowishberlin at 1:54 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

That experimental dose cost more than he's paid in taxes for the past 20 years so I'd count that as a grift.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:57 PM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

get tested not earlier than 7 days after your last exposure to the Index Case
Several Minnesota Republicans are getting tested today after being in contact with this group on Wednesday. Lovely waste of tests there, guys.
posted by soelo at 1:58 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

He has received a single infusion of a promising experimental treatment: an antibody cocktail developed by the biotech company Regeneron

Do you want metastatic Tetsuo? Because that's how you get metastatic Tetsuo.
posted by The Tensor at 1:58 PM on October 2, 2020 [23 favorites]

Buzzfeed has this large picture from Thursday. Bleary, bloodshot eyes. Looking very tired. This is not a well person, nor does he appear to be 'in high spirits'.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:59 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

hmm... exhibiting mild symptoms so we better get him started on this experimental treatment immediately!
posted by piyushnz at 2:00 PM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

hmm... exhibiting mild symptoms so we better get him started on this experimental treatment immediately!

I mean, based on his age and weight and other health factors, that actually doesn't seem far from the mark. I would hope if Biden had it they would approach it similarly.
posted by deadaluspark at 2:01 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

No tweets more likely means he's absorbing the media today to unleash a flurry of tweets tomorrow at 6am, or late evening today

Soooo....You’re attributing a show of self-restraint to...Donald Trump? Are you sure this the hill you wish to die on?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:03 PM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

If he gets better and doesn't immediately authorize the same treatment for every American who needs it, I won't be at all surprised.
posted by bink at 2:03 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Give President Trump his due: his bold choices may well have taken the nation’s greatest security threat out of action.

Jimmy Carr said, “Say what you will about Hitler, he did kill Hitler.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:04 PM on October 2, 2020 [67 favorites]

There's a long running conspiracy theory that Barron Trump is a time traveler.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:07 PM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

That experimental dose cost more than he's paid in taxes for the past 20 years so I'd count that as a grift.

No kidding — biologics are very expensive.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:07 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

The problem with his treatment he received is that it's handcrafted patient by patient (per the WaPo writeup posted above). It'd be great to give this to every infected American but it's impossible to do so. That's definitely not gunpowder you burn against a "mild" case like Kudlow is saying. Shit seems serious or 45 is demanding SCIENCE save him like a deathbed confession.
posted by msbutah at 2:08 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

I think there's enough conspiracy theories in this thread as is.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 2:08 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

"A student petition is calling on Notre Dame's president to resign. ... His decision to shake hands with people there and not wear a mask caused outrage for some Notre Dame students, who have been following strict campus coronavirus rules so closely."

Cannot tell you how utterly outraged (my parts of) the alumni networks are. My phone absolutely lit up this morning with enraged ND grads texting me about Jenkins. And everyone is FURIOUS. My facebook feed is full of the kind of fury Notre Dame alumni usually save for USC fans. I've seen several people say they're cancelling their donations over this. (More of my immediate friends already don't donate because of prior things, but I'm seeing Boomers etc. saying they're pulling their donations.)

Who would ever imagine that writing a pompous, badly-theologically-reasoned, smug-ass op-ed in the New York Times would come back to bite him in the ass so hard?

The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops, man.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:13 PM on October 2, 2020 [58 favorites]

He's headed to Walter Reed medical center.
posted by cmfletcher at 2:16 PM on October 2, 2020 [18 favorites]

Do you want metastatic Tetsuo?

Oh man please that would be the best way to close out 2020, come on 2020, you owe me, give me this at least
posted by Lonnrot at 2:16 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

There's no allowing. Pence + the Cabinet can do it (on a short term basis) on their own. If Trump is incommunicado, this is easier, but it's not necessary.

Can interim appointments do that? Or do they have to be properly confirmed? Because that could be a problem quorum wise given that the current admin was too lazy to get their choices confirmed in the senate
posted by srboisvert at 2:17 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

As he moves from mild, to experimental cocktails, to Walter Reed, I feel like I'm watching my pizza getting made at Domino's.
posted by bookwo3107 at 2:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [138 favorites]

And the next debate can be Trump and Biden wandering the smashed remnants of the city, calling out each other's names.
posted by rikschell at 2:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [19 favorites]

Jim @Acosta, CNN: Trump "out of abundance of caution" will be working out of offices at Walter Reed hospital for next few days, a WH spokesperson said.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:20 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

Alex Gibney (of Going Clear) apparently has a documentary coming out Oct 13 called “Totally Under Control” featuring interviews with a whistleblower, scientists and people on the inside.
posted by glaucon at 2:20 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Well now that he's had the antibody cocktail, if he survives you know hes going to be going after teh FDA and any kind of drug research regulations and blame that for keeping the pandemic going and slowing down the cure, which exists because he is now fine!
posted by WeekendJen at 2:21 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

bookwo3107 As he moves from mild, to experimental cocktails, to Walter Reed, I feel like I'm watching my pizza getting made at Domino's.

In that you know the inevitable outcome will be disappointing?
posted by SansPoint at 2:23 PM on October 2, 2020 [63 favorites]

Does anybody know anything about this antibody cocktail? How many people has it been used on? What kind of symptoms would lead to this (I guess) experimental treatment? [is it better than bleach? :)]
posted by bluesky43 at 2:24 PM on October 2, 2020

According to Wikipedia, "The White House Medical Unit includes emergency medical and trauma capability at both the White House and the residence of the Vice President of the United States at the United States Naval Observatory.[4] One former Physician to the President described the White House unit as an urgent care center with a crash cart.[5]". So what exactly is it they have at Walter Reed that they don't have at the WH? Oh, right "offices."
posted by jonathanhughes at 2:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

I thought the WH had a hospital facility for the use of presidents and family. I don't mean to get ahead of events, but if he's going to Walter Reed, it must really be bad. That's what Boris Johnson did out of "caution," too.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

As he moves from mild, to experimental cocktails, to Walter Reed, I feel like I'm watching my pizza getting made at Domino's.

Are you on Twitter? Because as a tweet this would be worth at minimum 20K likes.
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [54 favorites]

Can interim appointments do that? Or do they have to be properly confirmed? Because that could be a problem quorum wise given that the current admin was too lazy to get their choices confirmed in the senate

My recollection is that it's an open question and there are arguments either way. The Constitution doesn't define what counts as an executive agency either, so whether something is "cabinet level" is sort of wishy washy.

As a practical matter I don't think it will be a problem in this case. If Trump is too sick to work and Pence invokes it, everyone will go along with it and by the time a court ruled otherwise (and it probably wouldn't) it the issue would probably be resolved either way.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Well, Dominos dipping sauces do taste kinda like bleach
posted by Beardman at 2:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

He's headed to Walter Reed medical center.

Oh, you know, probably just the second part of his routine physical. As such things are done.
posted by bcd at 2:25 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

According to the BBC, he's being taken to hospital.
posted by essexjan at 2:25 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

LATEST: Pres. Trump has been treated with a single 8-gram dose of Regeneron's polyclonal antibody cocktail, and "completed the infusion without incident," according to a statement from his physician.

Um, why is he taking melatonin?
posted by bluesky43 at 2:26 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

So what exactly is it they have at Walter Reed that they don't have at the WH?

Ventilators?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:28 PM on October 2, 2020 [32 favorites]

Does anybody know anything about this antibody cocktail? How many people has it been used on? What kind of symptoms would lead to this (I guess) experimental treatment?

There was a big article about it just today or yesterday. It's very legit, but it's only just finished phase one trials. There's a lot of hope that it will be very effective, and would normally be given early in the disease progression. A treatment that has more evidence, steroids, are very effective but aren't given until later in the disease if you get very sick.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:29 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

This is what he has been given, along with other more basic meds. I think, from Press Sec. announcement.

REGN-COV2
posted by Max Power at 2:29 PM on October 2, 2020

From Regeneron's (the maker of the antibody cocktail) site [PDF]:
"this type of compassionate use program is also known as an Expanded Access Program (EAP) and is intended for patients with serious or life-threatening conditions who do not have any viable or available treatment options"
posted by msbutah at 2:30 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

now that he's had the antibody cocktail, if he survives

"It will start getting cooler, just you watch. I don't think science knows."

Does anybody know anything about this antibody cocktail?

He received an 8g dose of REGN-COV2, which Regeneron apparently calls a "high dose" of their drug in their Phase 2 test protocols.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:30 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

"...as a tweet this would be worth at minimum 20K likes."
How many likes do I need to get a gyrocopter?
posted by Floydd at 2:30 PM on October 2, 2020 [17 favorites]

Apparently, he was taken to Walter Reed via Marine One and not the usual motorcade. So, yeah.
posted by SansPoint at 2:30 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

How many likes do I need to get a gyrocopter?

Seven!
posted by glaucon at 2:31 PM on October 2, 2020

He would need to notify Congress that Pence is Acting President. That would be public.

LOLOLOL. Yeah. They'd be sure to tell us right away.
posted by tzikeh at 2:33 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Mad respect to the person on Twitter who responded to #PrayforTrump with a link to Shellac's "Prayer to God"
posted by Beardman at 2:34 PM on October 2, 2020 [17 favorites]

They'd be sure to tell us right away.

The letter would be delivered to Nancy Pelosi. We'd be told.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:35 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Regeneron has not received an Emergency Use Authorization. Is the law being broken?
posted by srboisvert at 2:35 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Best schadenfreude all day -- he/it/they now have a pre-existing health condition.
posted by vers at 2:35 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

The letter would be delivered to Nancy Pelosi. We'd be told.

You're assuming they'd write/deliver that letter. What have they done so far that makes you think they'd follow the Constitution?
posted by tzikeh at 2:36 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

A big tell is going to be how he walks to the helicopter. Man, I wish I had TV again.
posted by aramaic at 2:36 PM on October 2, 2020

As he moves from mild, to experimental cocktails, to Walter Reed, I feel like I'm watching my pizza getting made at Domino's.

Herman Cain's Godfather's Pizza, surely?
posted by benzenedream at 2:37 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Yeah. They'd be sure to tell us right away.

This is starting to feel like it could be a modern day remake of Kingdom.
posted by thefoxgod at 2:38 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

He was administered a high dose of an experimental polyclonal (!!! and I hope I'm not overreacting to this not being a mAB) drug and is then moved to Walter Rerd.

I'm finding it impossible not to read into the juxtaposition.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:39 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Jim @Acosta, CNN: Trump "out of abundance of caution" will be working out of offices at Walter Reed hospital for next few days, a WH spokesperson said.

He is famous for his abundantly cautious approach to things after all.
posted by mazola at 2:39 PM on October 2, 2020 [35 favorites]

You're assuming they'd write/deliver that letter. What have they done so far that makes you think they'd follow the Constitution?

Maybe the White House Chief of Staff will do it, but the military won't take orders from Pence without the correct piece of paper that says Pence is acting President.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

I think the official statement was "Yeah, the President is totally able to discharge the powers and duties of his office why do you ask?"
posted by swift at 2:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Barron Trump can just take my money now for the eventual tell-all book that's the chaos in the White House right now.
posted by geoff. at 2:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

A big tell is going to be how he walks to the helicopter. Man, I wish I had TV again.

Live feed on YouTube.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

From that BBC story:

US President Donald Trump has been taken to hospital less than 24 hours after testing positive for coronavirus...

He received a cocktail of drugs as a "precautionary measure", the White House said, and was feeling "fatigued but in good spirits".

He was transported to Walter Reed National Military Medical Centre.

Also, after I joked about it, this: "Out of an abundance of caution...""
posted by doctornemo at 2:43 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

@SlacktivistFred: Odd that Herman Cain has tweeted more today than the president has.
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:44 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

the military won't take orders from Pence without the correct piece of paper that says Pence is acting President

Is this true? I thought the military accepted orders from Cheney on 9/11, to shoot down airliners. Presumably that would have required presidential authority, which hadn't been given?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:45 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I'm expecting them to roll him out, not for him to walk
posted by emjaybee at 2:45 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

MSNBC is also showing the copter on the WH lawn, but saying we may not "get" to see how 45 makes it from the WH to the copter.
posted by emjaybee at 2:46 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

So, the BBC notes that he's already been taken to hospital, yet the live YouTube feed shows the helicopter waiting to transport him from the White House.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 2:47 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

If Biden and his camp was savvy they would show tomorrow Biden exercising, swimming, taking strong walks, anything physical.
posted by robbyrobs at 2:48 PM on October 2, 2020 [24 favorites]

Live feed on YouTube

Is there any way to get that video with the soundtrack from lofi hip hop radio - beats to relax/study to?
posted by thatwhichfalls at 2:48 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

I'm expecting them to roll him out, not for him to walk

Here's the photo.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 2:48 PM on October 2, 2020 [41 favorites]

Presumably that would have required presidential authority, which hadn't been given?

This is super-foggy history. I believe that Cheney insists that he was simply relaying Bush's orders, and that this is backed by Rice.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:49 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

I don't want to break the flow, but I notice on Twitter that this is giving Joe lots of opportunities to look presidential.

Go for it, Joe.
posted by Grangousier at 2:50 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

The military is not handicapped by dependence on any one person. Civilian authority runs through the National Command Authority from the President to the Secretary of Defense to various subordinate civilian appointees in the DoD. The Combatant Commanders have significant statutory and regulatory authority to manage crises until the NCA can weigh in. In general the NCA doesn't put the Vice President in the decision loop except to the extent the President puts him there.
posted by MattD at 2:50 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

I'm really really interested in Trump getting this antibody treatment. I suppose as President he can just ignore the FDA. I don't see how this would qualify for a compassionate exemption.

Is this true? I thought the military accepted orders from Cheney on 9/11, to shoot down airliners. Presumably that would have required presidential authority, which hadn't been given?

It says right in that link that, at least according to the administration, Bush gave authorization via phone from Air Force 1.
posted by muddgirl at 2:52 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Marine One is still on the lawn.

Must be waiting for a show to finish.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 2:52 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

If that helicopter crashes we will have reached true peak 2020.
posted by Lanark at 2:53 PM on October 2, 2020 [19 favorites]

Is there any way to get that video with the soundtrack from lofi hip hop radio - beats to relax/study to?

Yep.
posted by Diskeater at 2:53 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Is there any way to get that video with the soundtrack from lofi hip hop radio - beats to relax/study to?

Yes
posted by Happy Dave at 2:54 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Jinx
posted by Happy Dave at 2:54 PM on October 2, 2020

It says right in that link that, at least according to the administration, Bush gave authorization via phone from Air Force 1.

Ah, I must have misremembered that. Apologies.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:55 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

If that helicopter crashes we will have reached true peak 2020.

Or just the point where reality finally merges entirely with Homeland.
posted by penguin pie at 2:55 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

He was administered a high dose of an experimental polyclonal (!!! and I hope I'm not overreacting to this not being a mAB)

As I understand it, Regeneron's REGN-COV2 is a mix of two mABs.
posted by kickingtheground at 2:55 PM on October 2, 2020

Also:

3. The tweet that announced the positive test was ghost written

You can tell because it said "we'll get through this TOGETHER".

Donnie literally doesn't understand the concept of "together".
posted by Grangousier at 2:56 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

The media needs to be absolutely emphasizing how different this is to “going to the hospital” for normal people. It’s like the difference between saying I have a net-worth and Jeff Bezos has a net-worth.....

There can be no inch of an out given that this wasn’t serious and it was just Trump being Presidential, or cautious, or because he has “amazing bigly health”.

1. There was an on-site dedicated medical team and advanced urgent care clinic and it was still not considered sufficient

2.Helicopter medical evacuation was called for less than 24 hours after diagnosis

3. A stage 1 highly experimental treatment cocktail was used and administered at high-dose. This would carry side effect risks that would have had to be factored before administration of the treatment.

4. A world-class dedicated hospital team has been activated to care for him at Walter Reed 24x7

Almost everything above is so far beyond anything any of us mere mortals would ever get on demand - even under the most high end insurance plans. This ain’t going to the hospital - this is the complete mobilization of a dedicated healthcare system around one person. That may be appropriate for the leader of a nuclear superpower. But it is not going to the hospital.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 2:59 PM on October 2, 2020 [125 favorites]

And I mean even if it were just "going to the hospital" the way you or I might think of it -- this is not a man who "goes to the hospital" for a cold.
posted by eirias at 3:01 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

He had to call fox news to profess he was only inspecting the bunker. There's no way he's going to the hospital as a precaution.
posted by cmfletcher at 3:03 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I predict he will be air lifted by drones to the helicopter.
posted by mazola at 3:03 PM on October 2, 2020

Now if only I could get through to my liberal social media contacts who earlier this week were Very Concerned about the Proud Boys, "vote like you may never get another chance", "if they try and replace RBG we riot"; but now are 100% in the tank for "Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship, why is common decency dead with all these people doing anything less than calling for a complete and total recovery?".

I'm not sure that it matters on the grander scheme of things, but it sticks in my craw a bit, y'know?
posted by CrystalDave at 3:03 PM on October 2, 2020 [16 favorites]

NBC News livestream from the White House
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:07 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship

Like Trump did in 2016, when Ms. Clinton was sick? /s
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:07 PM on October 2, 2020 [49 favorites]

He's obviously gotten a lot worse really fast, which isn't a very good sign.

Anyone who wants Biden to suspend his campaign ought to be evaluated themselves for delirium. Biden obviously can't go on TV and say, "I hope he dies, he's a monster" or even debate an empty chair or anything that seems to make light of his illness (and god willing Biden won't get sick) - he's got to treat this with a certain amount of gravitas or he'll open himself up to a lot of needless negative coverage. But we want Biden to win. This is important, not croquet on the lawn. He ought to press every advantage he has as long as he has it.
posted by Frowner at 3:07 PM on October 2, 2020 [86 favorites]

Biden released a "this is not a partisan moment" tweet that made me update all the open news sites as the phrasing made it sound like the president had died.
posted by Slackermagee at 3:10 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship, why is common decency dead with all these people doing anything less than calling for a complete and total recovery?".

Fuck.
That.
Noise.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:10 PM on October 2, 2020 [35 favorites]

I'm with you on rejecting that/being frustrated by it, but it seems to be a common line that a lot of long-time Democrats have picked up, so I suspect it's going to be dogging Biden for a while.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:12 PM on October 2, 2020

For this being an apparent emergency, that helicopter's been on the lawn for a whiiiiiile now...
posted by FeatherWatt at 3:13 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

is common decency dead

Yes. Certain people bashed it over the head with a shovel and buried it in the back garden four years ago.

It's possible to be decent without being supplicant.
posted by Grangousier at 3:13 PM on October 2, 2020 [34 favorites]

“NEWS: @JoeBiden is taking down his negative ads, going all-positive, per source familiar.
...
Also told no plans to change Biden's schedule, he'll stay on trail in next few days. BUT: this is hour to hour, contingent on Trump's condition.”
— @jmartNYT

class act + perfect compromise imho
posted by changeling at 3:14 PM on October 2, 2020 [32 favorites]

They're delaying and that Biden tweet was this-is-a-national-tragedy energy.

Is he dead?
posted by Slackermagee at 3:15 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Thinking back to the photo of Hicks, unmasked, walking to a helicopter, side by side with an also maskless Stephen Miller, just behind an also unmasked Jared Kushner, and then remembering that ghouls, like the rest of the undead, are unlikely to contract illness
posted by Ghidorah at 3:16 PM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

According to CNN, traveling by Marine One to Walter Reed is usual procedure.
posted by jeoc at 3:16 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

If he's not on that helicopter in the next fifteen minutes, I'm closing the tab and going to order dinner.
posted by SansPoint at 3:17 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Thought I could go one day without wine.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:17 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

"Now that I have your attention"
posted by elkevelvet at 3:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Is he dead?

He just now walked onto the helicopter
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Ahmad Khani: Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.
posted by SansPoint at 3:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

IF he is even in a state where he can be moved, perhaps they are waiting until dark, so there won't be photos of him on a stretcher with an IV pole. [on edit] Whoops. Never mind.
posted by PhineasGage at 3:18 PM on October 2, 2020

I can only imagine it's taking him so long to get to Marine One because he would insist on walking to not show weakness and he physically can't? Which would delay his treatment and this is the dumbest Greek tragedy ever oh my god
posted by bookwo3107 at 3:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Thought I could go one day without wine.
exactly 31 days without booze, for me. goddamnit. i feel u.
posted by lazaruslong at 3:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

I predict he will be air lifted by drones to the helicopter.

He's gone full-on Harkonnen flying suit now.
posted by banshee at 3:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

Delay is more likely due to a tantrum than anything else. People are "but sir"-ing and crying, thinking it would appease him, and he's not having it.
posted by emelenjr at 3:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

For what it's worth, Trump - like the walking, talking 80s cliche he is - has often used lateness as a power move. He likes people to be waiting on him.
posted by ZaphodB at 3:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [16 favorites]

Pulling back on negativity is a good move. I kind of imagine Biden would prefer a more positive campaign, anyway.
Suspending the campaign is nuts.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

I'm assuming President Pence is having a working supper.

Marine 1 is the most secure Helo in the world there are two of them what if Trump already left. is he in slippers? K, he's gotta give the keys to Pence when he reaches WR. Does anyone know if the the 25th being invoked has a time limit for public disclosure.
Biden in Grand Rapids? bold, that was generally Republican
bastion.

John Sellek, a veteran GOP strategist. “If they really tamp down Trump’s ability to hold on there and pick up votes, it becomes very hard ... for Trump to win Michigan.”

Dude, have you travelled through wind mill and the smaller bastions through various adjoining counties...the increase in rural vote will off set the loses in Grand Rapids.

I've never seen the country this divided since Nixon.
rotors up
posted by clavdivs at 3:20 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

"The president of the United States is in the most secure bubble in the world... and he still got it. So, wear the damn mask!" - Chris Wallace
posted by robbyrobs at 3:20 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

While we're waiting: Regeneron, the maker of Trump's REGN-COV2 antibody cocktail, is an "Operation Warp Speed" awardee: HHS, DOD Collaborate with Regeneron on Large-Scale Manufacturing Demonstration Project of COVID-19 Investigational Therapeutic Treatment (July 7, 2020) By funding this manufacturing effort, the federal government will own the doses expected to result from the demonstration project. The US gov't has committed $147 million to the company thus far.

Two weeks before that announcement, the US sued them: United States Files Suit Against Drug Manufacturer Regeneron for Paying Kickbacks Through Co-Pay Foundation (justice.gov, June 24, 2020) The U.S. Attorney’s Office announced today that the government has filed a civil False Claims Act complaint against drug manufacturer Regeneron Pharmaceuticals, Inc. (Regeneron), of Tarrytown, N.Y. The complaint alleges that Regeneron paid tens of millions of dollars in kickbacks for its macular degeneration drug Eylea, using a foundation as a conduit to cover co-pays for Eylea. More on the Anti-Kickback Statute.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:20 PM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

I didn't see him walk to the helicopter but they had a photographer out there so he couldn't have looked too bad.
posted by muddgirl at 3:21 PM on October 2, 2020

He just now walked onto the helicopter

Was he... wearing a mask, by any chance?
posted by penguin pie at 3:21 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Thought I could go one day without wine.
We have a curfew here, and I just ran down to the corner store to buy a bottle before it closed. I don't why I feel I need a drink, but I do.
posted by mumimor at 3:21 PM on October 2, 2020

And there he goes in a helicopter, off into the sunset…
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:22 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

He just now walked onto the helicopter

Did it take that long to find his body double? I'm slightly kidding, but it seems fair to wonder how much we can trust what we're being shown and told by this administration, and be vigilant.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:23 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Apparently the new monoclonal antibodies are pretty potent

Polyclonal antibodies are his current treatment. (As mentioned a few times above...)

What is Regeneron’s antibody cocktail? Here’s what we know about Trump’s treatment (basically AP article ... may be linked above)
posted by mrgrimm at 3:23 PM on October 2, 2020

Yes, he walked, masked and suited.
posted by msbutah at 3:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

NBC played a video of him walking to the helicopter but it was super sped up like a silent film
posted by theodolite at 3:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

sped up footage
posted by clavdivs at 3:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

It is so weird that now is the time he decided to start wearing a mask.
posted by zixyer at 3:25 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

NBC played a video of him walking to the helicopter but it was super sped up like a silent film

Side effect of Regeneron apparently.
posted by popcassady at 3:25 PM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

exactly 31 days without booze, for me. goddamnit. i feel u.

hang in there!
posted by mrgrimm at 3:26 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

I rewound the NBC live stream on youtube and used 0.5 speed, it looks more normal.
posted by polymodus at 3:26 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

NBC played a video of him walking to the helicopter but it was super sped up like a silent film

Aaaannd ... cue the Benny Hill music.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:27 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

Thought I could go one day without wine.
exactly 31 days without booze, for me. goddamnit. i feel u.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
posted by kaibutsu at 3:28 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Aaaannd ... cue the Benny Hill music.

Slower playback gives it more of a "Comfortably Numb" vibe:

Can you stand up?
I do believe it's working, good
That'll keep you going through the show
Come on, it's time to go
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:33 PM on October 2, 2020 [17 favorites]

Now in Bethesda, exited Marine One, saluting; climbed into car.
His hands look too big.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:34 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

all the network news bobble heads said we really dont know much of what is going on
(I went back to reading my book)
posted by robbyrobs at 3:35 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I'm watching the cspan feed and two women with a giant Trump banner just held their sign up in front of the camera. Camera guy says "ladies, please." Woman starts shouting "you just touched me, I know my rights!" Hard to tell what's happening.
posted by phunniemee at 3:36 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

I wonder if at the White house they normally keep oxygen, as it is so explosive. Oxygen would be the step prior to other more invasive measures, and while they might keep a small tank on hand prior to transfer they likely don't have enough to supply him for the duration of treatment if it's needed without delivery and such.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:37 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Trump just tweeted a weird, echoey 18 second video in which he announces that he "thinks he's doing very well" and is going to Walter Reed Hospital.
posted by theodolite at 3:37 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

My god he looks terrible.
posted by Frowner at 3:38 PM on October 2, 2020

I didn't see him walk to the helicopter but they had a photographer out there so he couldn't have looked too bad.

Just imagine Trump walking to a helicopter while wearing his presidential mask, and that's basically what it looked like.
posted by wondermouse at 3:39 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

At the very hour the No Masker in Chief is being choppered to Walter Reed for covid, the Republican dominant Michigan Supreme Court struck down Gov. Whitmer's powers of Executive Order. We have a highly gerrymandered Republican legislature who've been against the orders. We're still having a thousand new cases a day and I feel even more unsafe.

If you live in Michigan, and haven't voted yet, vote for the SC Dem noms Mccormack and Welch.
posted by NorthernLite at 3:39 PM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

Is that video on a green screen?
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:40 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

He kind of looks the same to me. So. I donno.
posted by samthemander at 3:40 PM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

Trump just tweeted

Well it was nice while it lasted
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Going to be more aggressively deleting conspiracy theories/baseless speculation like "that was a body double" or "old footage!" or whatever. Source it or don't post it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 3:42 PM on October 2, 2020 [86 favorites]

My god he looks terrible.
Less orange and incoherent than usual so I’d say he looks better than he usually does.
posted by edd at 3:42 PM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

Less orange and incoherent than usual so I’d say he looks better than he usually does.
That was my thought as well.
posted by Talia Devane at 3:43 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

Footage of him disembarking, and the video he tweeted, look fine to me. And maybe that’s the point: get a public transfer to Walter Reed over with while he can still ambulate and address the nation looking relatively perky, in case there’s a slide into more debilitating illness (or side effects from the trial medication) ahead.
posted by blue suede stockings at 3:48 PM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

The all overhead office lighting did him no favors either. They grabbed a camera phone and posted the first passable video they could make.
posted by cmfletcher at 3:50 PM on October 2, 2020

Perhaps better for regular human beings, but pretty terrible on the scale of how he usually looks.
posted by sideshow at 3:50 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

That video is haunting and fascinating. For a man who usually visibly delights in lying, it did not appear as though he enjoyed uttering that particular series of untruths.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 3:50 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Since there was some question raised above about the compassionate use exemption (Mayo Clinic) for experimental drugs, more technically called the expanded access program (FDA), this is something that is approved on a per-case basis by the FDA in response to a request from the patient's doctor(s). As far as I'm aware there is no process for approving a drug for compassionate use generally, only for approving its use for a specific case. As a part of the process, the manufacturer of the drug must also give consent for its use, and of course supply it. In this case, it seems very unlikely that Regeneron would supply the drug unless they were convinced they were legally protected by a properly-followed compassionate use request. So no, I don't think there's any possibility that the drug was used illegally.

However, as pointed out above, compassionate use approval requires that the disease is "serious or immediately life-threatening," in direct contrast to the "very moderate" symptoms the administration publicly claimed. Which means either Trump's doctors lied to the FDA to inflate how serious his case is in order to get approval, or the administration is lying about how serious his case his in order to minimize it publicly. (Or first one, then the other, as his disease progressed.) Honestly, considering the kinds of lies his doctors have been prepared to tell to the public in the past, both seem plausible to me, but in light of him being airlifted to Walter Reed it's pretty clear he's not having a moderate case of COVID.

With limited information we need to be careful about conspiracy thinking and jumping to conclusions. But we should also definitely call out the obvious lies where we see them.
posted by biogeo at 3:51 PM on October 2, 2020 [19 favorites]

Honestly that was the least bullshit thing I've heard him say in 4+ years.
posted by iamabot at 3:51 PM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

Honestly that was the least bullshit thing I've heard him say in 4+ years.
He appeared sheepish a beat man of which he is
posted by robbyrobs at 3:54 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Iamabot: agreed. I misspoke. I meant: he’s clearly attempting to downplay things but he clearly doesn’t know whether to believe it. It’s that ... unexpected skepticism, and perhaps fear, that I sensed, which seemed so remarkable.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 3:55 PM on October 2, 2020

I know he's going to be fine, because we demonstrably live in hell, where poetic justice does not exist. But I must admit, it feels good to experience just a wee bit of hope and levity, as a fleeting treat.
posted by Beardman at 3:57 PM on October 2, 2020 [38 favorites]

Every time people point to a photo or video and say he looks terrible I agree, and yet I also can't see any difference from every other photo and video of him.
"Looks terrible" is his default and if there's a difference it's completely lost on me.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:57 PM on October 2, 2020 [38 favorites]

I can see the WH doctors/lawyers making the case that any reduction in a Presidents capacity due to illness is "serious" by definition, or the pharmacy compacy just accepting the risk on the grounds of receiving a future presidential pardon and press for saving the president. Even without that, given the shit people have gotten away with this administration, the risk of prosecution of a pharmacy company if Trump consented has to be near zero, surely?
posted by Jon Mitchell at 3:58 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

I want him to do well, or at least well enough to participate in the election and get trounced fair and square. Then he can die for all I care.

But he needs to not be incapacitated before the election results come in and are accepted, because otherwise we get chaos.

I do hope he doesn't infect anyone else, though.
posted by suelac at 4:01 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

The helicopter landed unusually close to the White House, as near the entrance as possible. He walked to it. Watching CBS, didn't hear any comment about anything else unusual.

There were reports that he's fatigued, has a fever and cough, and since he's the President (spits) they want him in a good hospital. I suspect he's sicker than they're saying, but clearly not dead, not at death's door.

Some of the hot takes here are over the top, settle the fuck down. The known facts are worrying enough. A very sick President creates real National Security Risk. The stock market is in trouble, etc., and an incompetent Administration is unlikely to manage well.
posted by theora55 at 4:01 PM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

Which means either Trump's doctors lied to the FDA to inflate how serious his case is in order to get approval, or the administration is lying about how serious his case his in order to minimize it publicly. (Or first one, then the other, as his disease progressed.)

More likely the government, the executive branch and certainly the President himself has the ability to override some bureaucratic FDA regulation.
posted by geoff. at 4:03 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

especially if a particular subordinate has all the charisma and appeal of an unripe potato

Potatoes can be unripe? Smöl, yes, green with poison, or shot through with rot, but unripe?

That series of proof of vertical videos is concerning. Though necessary.
posted by tilde at 4:03 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

settle the fuck down

Or, alternatively, don't.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:04 PM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

Well, the political duties of the patient are not supposed to be part of the medical consideration as to the seriousness of the disease. Regeneron would only be looking for Expanded Access clearance from the FDA, and the FDA is supposed to make decisions only on the basis of medical need. Whether officials in the FDA inappropriately approved compassionate use due to Trump's position as President rather than on the basis of medical need is a separate question, and also can't be ruled out.
posted by biogeo at 4:05 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

>Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship

Kinda like the way the Republicans weren't going to nominate a new supreme court justice before the election, as a show of bipartisanship.

Or like how they totally weren't going to deputize neonazis to stop people from voting, as a show of bipartisanship.

Every time there's a fucking hurricane we have to hear about how it's god's wrath for letting The Gays get married. I betcha it hasn't occurred to the folks who float those kinds of ideas to wonder whether this is an indication of what god thinks of the proud boys.

I'm not a believer in karma myself. But it'd be nice to think that all dictators and all would-be dictators get what they deserve.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:07 PM on October 2, 2020 [58 favorites]

And no, the President doesn't (legally) have authority to unilaterally override FDA regulations.
posted by biogeo at 4:08 PM on October 2, 2020

I've seen the video of him disembarking from the helicopter at Walter Reed, and he looked like he usually looks to me and didn't seem to be having any trouble with the steps or walking. My take is that he doesn't need medical care beyond what the White House facilities can provide yet, but he/they decided to transfer him now, while he could still move on his own, just in case and for better optics.
posted by orange swan at 4:08 PM on October 2, 2020 [24 favorites]

I suppose there could be an underlying condition we don't know about that would put him at particular risk. Maybe whatever sent him to Walter Reed last time, maybe something else.
posted by BungaDunga at 4:08 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

It's hard to judge his health based on a few seconds of footage. Trump's fixation on his image of physical vigor means that there's no way he would let himself be filmed in a stretcher or wheelchair unless he was completely incapacitated, so him walking to the helicopter really just means he's conscious. The fact that he's being admitted to the hospital is a good sign that this is more serious than a "mild" case. For obvious national security reasons, even relatively honest administrations tend to lie about the President's health, and this is not an honest administration.
posted by theodolite at 4:09 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

get a public transfer to Walter Reed over with while he can still ambulate and address the nation looking relatively perky
Ooohhh, of course that's what's up. Wow, that's really smart! Dang... imagine... there must be one lonely smart comms person wandering about amid a whole zoofull of gibbering idiots that spend all day tweeting stupidities and setting up murderous rose garden ceremonies.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:10 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

And no, the President doesn't (legally) have authority to unilaterally override FDA regulations.

It seems highly unlikely there is anyone in a cabinet office who would prosecute him or his doctors, anyway.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:11 PM on October 2, 2020

Who is taking care of Barron?

Same person who always does I would guess
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:11 PM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

He will get the best medical care in the world... unlike all the tax-paying and under-insured suckers in the US.
posted by binturong at 4:13 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

> I want him to do well, or at least well enough to participate in the election and get trounced fair and square. Then he can die for all I care.

Yeah, I feel like IMPOTUS dying before the election is almost 100% downside for anyone who wants American democracy to survive. The election ratfucking doesn't depend on him being alive, and even if you're skeptical that there would be a huge sympathy/national unity bump for the Republican nominee if he did succumb to the virus, the simple fact is that Trump's nationwide vote share is pretty much the floor for a GOP nominee. A hypothetical Pence/Ivanka or Pence/Haley or Pence/Love ticket would get 99.99% of the Trump vote plus a non-trivial number of #NeverTrumpers. A weakened Trump with significant concerns about his life expectancy is the best possible opponent for Democrats right now.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:13 PM on October 2, 2020 [24 favorites]

And no, the President doesn't (legally) have authority to unilaterally override FDA regulations.

If movies have taught me anything, people would happily accept someone in the white house shaking the pedantic FDA rule-following doctor by the shoulders and yelling "Good GOD man, it's the President" as perfectly fine in this case.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 4:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [16 favorites]

I like how people all over the internet are arguing over what we "should" "hope" for as if our hopes or lack thereof have any effect on what the next three and a half months will bring.
posted by lampoil at 4:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [44 favorites]

> tonycpsu: "Yeah, I feel like IMPOTUS dying before the election is almost 100% downside for anyone who wants American democracy to survive."

Yesterday, just after the news came out that Hope Hicks had tested positive (and well before we knew about Trump & Melania), I commented to a friend that, at this late date, it's not enough for Trump to merely be gone. He needs to be defeated. The Rob Ford -> Doug Ford / John Tory situation in Ontario that saturday_morning cited earlier should be at the front of mind for anyone thinking through the consequences of a Trump death.
posted by mhum at 4:20 PM on October 2, 2020 [32 favorites]

And no, the President doesn't (legally) have authority to unilaterally override FDA regulations.

Anecdotally, my dad was able to access a non FDA-approved experimental drug at Walter Reed many years ago. He wasn't a high ranking official, but he was a retired academy graduate and a purple heart veteran with 20 years of service and a sterling service record, so I don't know how much that played into it. It took DAYS to get the proper approvals in place, but they did manage to get the proper approvals because they were Walter Reed. While they were working to get the approvals, my mom and I were summoned to Walter Reed from across the country to come say goodbye. The drugs saved his life.

So access to experimental drugs isn't entirely unheard of or (necessarily) part of some sort of grift. I am assuming that anyone serving as president would be able to not only get those approvals, but get those approvals on short notice.
posted by mochapickle at 4:21 PM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

an incompetent Administration is unlikely to manage well.

One thing I worry about if Pence were to be in charge is Barr.

I feel like just due to his needing to be The Alpha, Trump makes Barr work for whatever vile stuff he wants to institute and won't let Barr dominate a conversation. Mind you, I feel like Trump's 100% on board with the most fascistic stuff Barr wants, but Barr at least has to put in some effort and make a case, give Trump some kind of fig leaf. By contrast, I feel like Barr would walk over Pence.

Pence would be all "Bill, I think..."
Barr: "What did you call me?"
Pence: "..."
Barr: "Henceforth, you will address me as Mr. Barr, Mike. Now here's the executive order you are going to sign."
Pence: "Okay, but what's it for, B-- Mr. Barr?"
Barr: "Sign it, Mike."
Pence: Signs it.
Nation: Suffers.

(Reader, please note that I've been drinking, as one does on a Friday evening with the way things are.)
posted by lord_wolf at 4:22 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

That green screen behind him in his tweet was weird. Also weird that he was only confirmed positive 18 hours ago (two hours after Hicks was announced positive!) and is now in hospital. But, good for the economy that he waited until after the markets closed in NYC in a Friday before announcing that he was going to hospital. Most people don’t go to hospital until closer to the five day mark. But I’m sure everything is fine. Just fine.
posted by saucysault at 4:22 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Why would they use a green screen? I just watched it again and I guess can't spot it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:27 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

METAFILTER: I've been drinking, as one does on a Friday evening with the way things are
posted by philip-random at 4:29 PM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

I know we already put a nix on the body double conspiracy theories, so I just want to say I'm not promoting it, I'm pointing out why it's a flawed theory.

You can body double a lot about a person.

You cannot body double that fucking hair.
posted by deadaluspark at 4:29 PM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

he was only confirmed positive 18 hours ago

Yeah, what this means is he's been sick longer than they've told us. My bet is he was already symptomatic Tuesday. Sure looked like it.
posted by Miko at 4:31 PM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

My take is that he doesn't need medical care beyond what the White House facilities can provide yet

Hard to say, but I for one would find it surprising if he didn't go to Walter Reed after showing COVID symptoms of any severity.
posted by swift at 4:32 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

So, what happens to the election if he dies?
posted by mightshould at 4:35 PM on October 2, 2020

RNC picks someone else, which they could also do at any time.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:39 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

"The president of the United States is in the most secure bubble in the world... and he still got it. So, wear the damn mask!" -

No, the POTUS has the potential of being in the most secure bubble in the world, but it's only a "bubble" if he doesn't attend crowded events with dozens of strangers who've been doing their own campaigning recently. This is not a bubble photo.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:39 PM on October 2, 2020 [31 favorites]

The video of Trump was shot with a narrow angle and shallow depth of field. It can make things look weirdly flat and detached from the background, especially if you're used to cell phone and gopro videos (which have very wide angles and deep fields), but it doesn't indicate a green screen. The same effect can be seen in other official videos from the White House.
posted by mbrubeck at 4:40 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

So, what happens to the election if he dies?

It's kind of a shitshow. It's too late to change the ballots, and people have already voted. The RNC can try to meet to pick another candidate but I don't know how they get people to vote for him. It may end up at the state legislatures, who may pick electors for ... someone.

Everyone is better off if he survives well enough to actually lose the election and if he has to die, does so after Biden is inaugurated.
posted by suelac at 4:43 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

I for one would find it surprising if he didn't go to Walter Reed after showing COVID symptoms of any severity.
Of course! He's the president and he's 70-whatever plus overweight plus (maybe?) has had a boatload of TIAs. He probably would've been there yesterday if he were not a stubborn ass and had it not therefore taken a solid day of persuading to convince him it's way better optics to walk yourself onto the helicopter than to get portaged onto it on a stretcher by a crew of strapping young marines.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:44 PM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

Just imagine Trump walking to a helicopter while wearing his presidential mask

Yeah, trump in an Obama mask is not something I had anticipated visualizing today, but ok.
posted by joeyh at 4:51 PM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

it's way better optics to walk yourself onto the helicopter than to get portaged onto it on a stretcher by a crew of strapping young marines.

But a lot less enjoyable.

On a more serious point, that Buzzfeed fact check list has been updated to include:

15. No, Pelosi wasn’t contacted by the White House about continuity of government. [Twitter link]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:57 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

There is no playbook if he dies before the election. Same with Biden. It would be bedlam. Votes have already been cast, there's no clear path for validating, invalidating, or transferring those votes to another candidate. Courts and state legislatures would get involved, federal courts and the supreme court would be involved. There is no way to know ahead of time the outcome of the power struggles would be, or how rulings would go, or how the legitimacy of the outcome would be perceived, or who would claim loyalty to whom.

All we can know about that situation, is that someone would end up in the office after the election, and that it would be one of the biggest shit shows in American history on the way there. And that no matter the outcome, a lot of people won't accept it.
posted by mrgoat at 4:59 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

What if Trump Can’t Run? Many Steps Are Clear, but Some Are Not [NY Times]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:00 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

For what it's worth, I live around the corner from Bedlam. No, really. Eventually it turned into an award-winning, hugely well-intentioned museum. No, really.

That might seem off the wall, but it's as close as I come to hope, these days.
posted by Grangousier at 5:04 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

You cannot body double that fucking hair.

$70k?

While I can see and understand the speculation of waiting until after the markets closed on Friday, I expect it was not simply just the markets. Who’s been trading in the last 24 hours and what have they been trading and why?
posted by tilde at 5:06 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

via Jim Acosta

"This is serious," the source said. The source went on to describe Trump as very tired, very fatigued, and having some trouble breathing. WH officials continue to say Trump will be fine.
posted by swift at 5:09 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

In 1872, Horace Greeley died after the general election but before the electoral college cast its votes. It was indeed a shitshow.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:10 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

God this hasn’t been 24 hours. Okay I’ll make the coffee.
posted by geoff. at 5:10 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

OK, so it’s a little less problematic for President because you’re electing electors, not specific candidates. If the party can coordinate who the electors vote for (which they didn’t do in 1872) then if he wins he or Pence win. (The 20th amendment says if the President Elect dies the VP Elect becomes President on Inauguration Day.)

If they don’t coordinate, and they wind up blowing the majority, it goes to the House who vote by states from the top 3 finishers (and the Senate elects the VP separately).
posted by Huffy Puffy at 5:11 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

On the NBC Nightly News, someone posited that the White House is an office building and removing a contagious President to the hospital means that the staffers can continue to work and move about without certain areas being blocked off. Who knows.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 5:11 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

I would have thought the obvious fallback would be to not acknowledge the death of a candidate until after the election, and if the President-Elect is dead, move down the chain of succession (which goes all the way down to the Washington DC municipal dogcatcher or something) until you find a warm body.
posted by acb at 5:13 PM on October 2, 2020

Horace Greeley was also primarily known as a media figure from New York, though at least by the time of his presidential campaign, he had served as a congressman for three months. Also his policies were far to the left of Trump's, even by modern standards.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:14 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Also, Greeley wasn't going to win even if he'd survived. The popular ballots had already been cast. It's a lot easier to navigate this situation when the person wasn't going to win anyway. Even if the electors had negotiated some sort of bloc to vote for a singular candidate, that dude would be just as much a historical footnote as Greeley himself.
posted by absalom at 5:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Republican Senator Thom Tillis has tested positive for coronavirus. He was also in attendance for the Rose Garden event last Saturday.
posted by theory at 5:20 PM on October 2, 2020 [16 favorites]

The lack of a Press Conference or much in the way of official statements is unbelievably incompetent and stupid, so def. typical of the Trump Administartion.

The RNC can't sub in a new candidate. Rules vary by state, people are already voting, and the death of a major candidate would be a mess.
posted by theora55 at 5:22 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Really looks like that Rose Garden ceremony was a super-spreader event...
posted by suelac at 5:25 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

2nd GOP Senate Judiciary member announces he’s positive for COVID: Steven Dennis on Twitter

Thom Tillis.
8:25 PM · Oct 2, 2020·
posted by bluesky43 at 5:27 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Will we be renaming it the Rona Garden?
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:29 PM on October 2, 2020 [44 favorites]

Could Trump Have Infected Biden?
The former vice president’s most recent COVID-19 test was negative, but he’s not yet in the clear.

Oh gawd. The Atlantic does a deep dive into what we all fear and has been commented on repeatedly in this thread.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:30 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Someone (well, it's these two people, neither of whom I have heard of before) have put together a Tableau dashboard with a bunch of publicly available contact and Covid test information for people in the vicinity of the White House.
posted by mhum at 5:32 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

(stolen from a friend of a friend)
Dear American friends: a gentle reminder that the Brazilian president managed to win an election from a hospital bed, not going to debates and using massive social media artillery instead. Please be prepared for social media onslaught from the other side and fight back! These platforms seem to be on their side.
posted by adamvasco at 5:34 PM on October 2, 2020 [53 favorites]

TILLIS: was at GOP lunch Wednesday. And likely was at Judiciary Committee meeting yesterday. Lisa Desjardins vis Twitter
posted by bluesky43 at 5:37 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Trump's illness raises national security concerns as Pentagon looks to reassure public
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:40 PM on October 2, 2020

Thom Tillis.

The screenwriters have got so lazy they're now just lifting character names from their long abandoned cheap Lord of the Rings knock-off
posted by thatwhichfalls at 5:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

I may have missed if somebody already pointed this out upthread, but Sen. Lee has admitted to being symptomatic and was observed to be maskless while attending the 90-minute long Judiciary Committee meeting on Thursday morning.

Lee was there for the full 90 minutes and spoke for over 10 minutes, at times shouting. He sat just feet away from Sen. Cruz.
posted by theory at 5:42 PM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

15. No, Pelosi wasn’t contacted by the White House about continuity of government. [Twitter link]

The source of that one was Feigl-Ding, who often seems to tweet in that sort of breathless, authoritative Twitter Voice. I'm not surprised he'd screw things up. He's been dinged (no pun intended) before. He was the "“HOLY MOTHER OF GOD — the new coronavirus is a 3.8!!!”" guy.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:42 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

I get that people are going to see patterns, and all these cautionary tales are interesting, but the US, its society, and its political system are quite a bit different from the UK, Brazil, and even Canada. The comparisons of Trump to Johnson, Bolsonaro, and Ford should probably be taken with the same grain of salt as the "clearly this is nth dimensional chess and he's lying" speculations. We're in largely uncharted waters, here.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:42 PM on October 2, 2020 [16 favorites]

The Guardian is reporting:

Trump very tired and having some trouble breathing, unnamed adviser tells CNN

While White House officials continue to say the president is doing fine, one unnamed Trump campaign adviser tells CNN that the president is very fatigued and having some trouble breathing. “This is serious,” the source said.

This is an account from a single anonymous source, so weigh it accordingly. We’ll update you if there are any confirmations about the seriousness of the president’s condition tonight.

He walked to a helicopter a couple hours previous. If this advisor's account is accurate, it sounds like Trump could be going downhill fast.
posted by bonobothegreat at 5:43 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Also Mike Lee, Ted Cruz, and Thom Tillis are all great names to draw out of the hat for your Wicker Man.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:44 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Came in here to unwind after a long day of work and there's far too much serious analysis and not nearly enough dumb jokes and dancing Ghanaian pallbearer memes.

It's Friday night and Trump has Covid. It's ok to unclench for just a little bit and laugh.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 5:44 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

Even a tired, breathless person might be able to steadily walk to a helicopter; I don't know if it's a sign that he's actually doing worse than earlier in the evening.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:45 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Came in here to unwind after a long day of work and there's far too much serious analysis and not nearly enough dumb jokes

Just do as I hope Trump does: Stay Positive.
posted by swift at 5:46 PM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

ok to unclench for just a little bit and laugh

I bought a lottery ticket because apparently some of my wishes are being granted today.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:47 PM on October 2, 2020 [19 favorites]

adamvasco: Dear American friends: a gentle reminder that the Brazilian president managed to win an election from a hospital bed, not going to debates and using massive social media artillery instead. Please be prepared for social media onslaught from the other side and fight back! These platforms seem to be on their side.

Serious question: was the Brazilian president already leading in the polls before he became ill? Or did he come from behind and win only after he was admitted to the hospital?
posted by tzikeh at 5:47 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

I wish I could laugh. My problem is that I can see this going wrong in so many ways, and that really dampens the schadenfreude.
posted by mollweide at 5:49 PM on October 2, 2020 [20 favorites]

It is not a wish that he and his supporters suffer indignity, the twinge of good that I'm feeling is a hope of fertile ground for progress.
posted by kybix at 5:52 PM on October 2, 2020

There is no playbook if he dies before the election. Same with Biden. It would be bedlam. Votes have already been cast, there's no clear path for validating, invalidating, or transferring those votes to another candidate.

I wish people would stop saying this since it isn't at all true. You don't vote for a specific person for President. You vote for electors, who are bound by law, or mere tradition in some states, to vote for the slate presented by their political party, which can be changed. Situations like this are one of the reasons the system works the way it does.

Even if Trump dies, the votes for those electors still count. There is no reason or legal basis for them to be invalidated.

Misinformation and confusion is one of the main things that has allowed Trump to get away with so much of the shit he has and directly contributes (in a small way) to the crisis of confidence we are currently experiencing. No good comes of giving cover to those who are hell bent on sowing confusion and interfering in our elections. Don't help the trolls, please.
posted by wierdo at 5:53 PM on October 2, 2020 [48 favorites]

This is a bad situation, however you slice it. I can’t even delight in any kind of poetic irony.

Also: Shout out to all my fellow sober mefites. I think I’ve gained five pounds from stress eating today alone.
posted by mochapickle at 5:54 PM on October 2, 2020 [37 favorites]

I wish I could laugh. My problem is that I can see this going wrong in so many ways, and that really dampens the schadenfreude.

Oh, it's absolutely going to be a shit show and will probably all end in tears. Not trying to tell anyone how to live their life but that's all the more reason to laugh now in my opinion.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 5:55 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

I showed up at a social gathering last night and the first question anyone asked me was "did you hear the good news" so I can assure you all that somewhere, people were unclenching and laughing on a Friday night!

(It's already Saturday afternoon where I am in case that's confusing.)
posted by inexorably_forward at 5:55 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Picked up wine; bet a bunch of money on the Lakers. This might just be a great day.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:56 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

I don't think many parallels can be drawn with Bolsonaro, who was stabbed in a politically-motivated attack during the 2018 election, when he was already the frontrunner and his main opponent was imprisoned and legally barred from campaigning.
posted by Not A Thing at 5:57 PM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

swift: Just do as I hope Trump does: Stay Positive.

Stealing this.
posted by clawsoon at 5:58 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Sen. Lee has admitted to being symptomatic and was observed to be maskless while attending the 90-minute long Judiciary Committee meeting on Thursday morning.

As God is my witness if covid-related idiocy keeps them from jamming Barrett through I will forgive the writers absolutely everything
posted by saturday_morning at 6:01 PM on October 2, 2020 [56 favorites]

He sat just feet away from Sen. Cruz.

Oh 2020, why, why must you tease me like this.
posted by emjaybee at 6:04 PM on October 2, 2020 [28 favorites]

As God is my witness if covid-related idiocy keeps them from jamming Barrett through I will forgive the writers absolutely everything

I KNOW right?

well maybe i won't forgive them eeeeeeeverything
posted by medusa at 6:05 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

It's Friday night and Trump has Covid. It's ok to unclench for just a little bit and laugh.

Stolen joke: You have to look at all of his comorbidities:
- Elderly.
- Overweight.
- Low income.
- Lives in public housing.
posted by clawsoon at 6:07 PM on October 2, 2020 [58 favorites]

I’m firmly of the belief that good things happening that lead to shitty things are still good things. Things are going to be what they are in the end, but I can still rejoice in the good without my worries about the future disrupting that. The shitty would have been shitty anyway, largely because people are going to be who they are, but good is always good.
posted by mikesch at 6:09 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Graham is dead set on keeping the confirmation hearings on track.
posted by prefpara at 6:09 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

"Covid-related idiocy" that may have sprung from the very ceremony that announced Coney Barrett as their candidate for a lifetime position. The irony is not subtle.
posted by Kevin Street at 6:13 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Chuck Grassley, who is 87, met with Mike Lee yesterday but says that he won't get tested because their chairs were more than six feet apart. The CDC guidelines are that you only need to be tested if you were within six feet of someone for over fifteen minutes, so he is definitely fine. Because that is definitely how diseases work. They set a timer for fifteen minutes and then pounce at fifteen minutes plus one second, but not an instant sooner.

And yes, the sick Judiciary Committee members claim that they will be well enough to be back at work in ten days, which coincidentally is when the Supreme Court confirmation hearings are set to begin. It's awesome that they can control COVID like that! They should definitely share their secret with the medical community.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:15 PM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

He sat just feet away from Sen. Cruz.

Oh 2020, why, why must you tease me like this.

You can't kill cockroaches that easily, even if they're in a humanoid skinsuit.
posted by sillyman at 6:16 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

this dingus will do anything to keep his tax returns out of the news hey?

if he dies from this I'm going to start believing the tax returns were his fucking horcrux
posted by um at 6:17 PM on October 2, 2020 [48 favorites]

Think of how easy it would've been for Donald Trump not to catch the coronavirus, by David Roth at the Defector.

And so the move, the only move, was to go on in denial, to push irritably and impatiently through the unrelenting fact of the disease behind the fantasy that none of it could ever have any consequences for him. His people followed on behind, not so much in denial as in defiance of the thought that any of this could possibly apply to them. The people that fly into rages upon being asked to wear a mask to protect other people and stop the spread of the disease would, paradoxically or not, also fly into a rage if the people serving them were not wearing masks. This is because these people are fucking unwell, but it is also because that facile distinction between themselves and other people is a load-bearing one. It holds up the whole gilded edifice, until it doesn’t. It was probably inevitable that Trump would get the virus, because the country is still awash in it and because he has refused to protect himself or others from it; it is, again, not really much of a metaphor that he himself seems to have become something of a vector for its spread in his own gilded circles. It is not a complicated story, or a long one. It’s the nature of a virus to spread, to move blindly from one person to the next, absolutely and always as illimitable as it is permitted to become.

posted by medusa at 6:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [23 favorites]

I have to confess I am glad that the mad king is suffering for his breath alone in an isolation ward, and anyone who comes near him is fully gowned and masked and treats him like the alien source and carrier of evil that he is.

The only thing that could improve it would be cold cement, bright lights, and bars.
posted by Dashy at 6:18 PM on October 2, 2020 [32 favorites]

>breathless person might be able to steadily walk to a helicopter

yeah the weird thing about this serious cases is that people can feel relatively energetic even with sub-90% O2 saturation . . . one #yachtlife couple had the elderly COVID-19 sufferer thinking he could walk the mile from the dock to the hospital, one he ended up dying in some weeks later.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:22 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

> compassionate use approval requires that the disease is "serious or immediately life-threatening,"

COVID-19 is a life-threatening disease, particularly for someone in their 70s with a few risk factors. That's all it would take for that approval. Plus, you know, President of the U.S., leader of the largest military on the planet, blah-blah-blah.

So there is nothing particularly out of order about that. Unlike bleach, hydroxychloroquine, etc, this type of antibody is the actual state of the art treatment for someone at this stage of the disease.

These monoclonal antibodies help you fight off the virus in the very early stages of infection. If you were to wait until you reached the "very serious ill," "in the hospital," or "on a respirator" phase of the COVID-19 disease progression it would be far, far too late for the monoclonal antibodies to do any good.

In fact, the antibodies administered at that phase of the disease would be positively harmful, as what they do is (basically/in short) ramp your immune system up quickly, and by the of the illness where you are on a respiratory it is exactly the overactive immune response that causes the problems and that last thing you would want to do is ramp it up even more.

So if you're going to administer the monoclonal antibodies and have them do any good, you've got to do it very early on. If anything, Trump is late to the ballgame as he's already been symptomatic for a couple of days. Ideally you'd get the antibodies just before or just after your exposure.

“If you treat people who are very sick, you may not see anything. If you treat people earlier, you will probably see what you saw in the monkeys: a significant reduction in virus, which doesn’t necessarily mean a reduction in morbidity and mortality, but it should. What you really want to do is prevent the progression of the disease.”

Source - more - more
posted by flug at 6:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [31 favorites]

I wish people would stop saying this since it isn't at all true. You don't vote for a specific person for President. You vote for electors, who are bound by law, or mere tradition in some states, to vote for the slate presented by their political party, which can be changed. Situations like this are one of the reasons the system works the way it does.

Wrong. This is true in only the most technical, legal sense. (Futurama: You are technically correct, the best kind of correct) but most people do vote for a specific person for president. They mark the name on the ballot, and that's who they think they voted for - I feel confident in the statement in that this is the basis of how most people would consider their vote be counted legitimately, which is really what matters. Otherwise, people stop trusting the electoral process, and then we're just back to whoever can enforce their will by violence, which admittedly is where we may be headed anyway.

Do you know anyone who actually walks into a voting booth, looks at a list of specific candidates on that piece of paper, and votes for an unlisted and largely anonymous slate of electors? Heck, I've been voting for a while now, and none of my ballots have even listed the names of the electors.
posted by mrgoat at 6:28 PM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

Came in here to unwind after a long day of work and there's far too much serious analysis and not nearly enough dumb jokes

Surely when it comes to Trump, these two things are interchangeable.
posted by piyushnz at 6:29 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

i just wanted to say that my first reaction was exhaustion

really

i'm just so tired of this - aren't you?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:33 PM on October 2, 2020 [40 favorites]

Yeah. Joe Biden is trying to be the better person - while the Trump campaign is like a headless scorpion, continuing to sting as long as it can.
posted by Kevin Street at 6:34 PM on October 2, 2020 [15 favorites]

What a relief it’s been today, to spend a few hours released from Trump’s unrelenting domineering presence in my life. He has been a mere human today, imagine that. A human with the flu. This simple shift gives me a glimmer of life post-Trump presidency and Wow. I can really taste today just how much calmer, saner, and easier it will be.

I want more of that autonomy back in my life, please. I want to be freed from being lorded over by a horrifying figure of corrupt and selfish power. I want it a lot.

To Trump the human: I wish you well. And may you stay merely human from here on out, for the sake of us all.
posted by marlys at 6:35 PM on October 2, 2020 [20 favorites]

Biden is showing us what being presidential in a crisis looks like.
posted by azpenguin at 6:36 PM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

> was administered a high dose of an experimental polyclonal

He would have gotten the lower dose if he were given as a preventative (ie, to family members of people recently diagnosed with COVID-19) as in, for example, this trial.

The higher dose indicates nothing, except that he is getting it a bit later in the course of the disease, after he has already shown some symptoms for a day or three.

Which . . . is a thing we already knew.

The only thing we can really take away from administering the antibodies is that he is in fact somewhere within the phase of the illness (lasting about a week, usually) where people typically either have no particular symptoms or fairly mild/non-alarming flu-like symptoms.

That doesn't tell you anything at all about how the next phase of the disease will turn out. Pretty much the full spectrum of possible outcomes is still available to him.

And we won't know for maybe another 4-8 days, when he hits that point in the disease progression, exactly which way it's going to go.

A Timeline of COVID-19 Symptoms
posted by flug at 6:36 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

The History Guy - Woodrow Wilson's stroke

101 years ago today. They kept it secret for a surprisingly long time. I don't know if THG had this episode planned but it's very timely.
posted by adept256 at 6:37 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Twitter: COVID19 is the only thing Trump has ever acquired in life by actually earning it.
posted by prefpara at 6:38 PM on October 2, 2020 [74 favorites]

Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship
that could be the stupidest thing anyone has ever thought ever
posted by Saxon Kane at 6:42 PM on October 2, 2020 [45 favorites]

In an article posted this evening about how the virus spread through the White House, WaPo is reporting that the decision to transfer Trump to the hospital today was in part a preemptive PR move. As his condition deteriorated over the course of the day Trump's team wanted to make the transfer while he was still able to walk under his own power, fearing the optics if his condition were to go downhill more quickly.

It also describes the fundraiser Trump attended on Thursday after he was aware of Hicks' infection:

In Bedminster, Trump held a roundtable fundraiser indoors where donors were sitting around the table with him. Masks were not worn in the room. The president then went outdoors to address a larger group, and some of those attendees wore masks, people present said.

Many of the attendees were elderly, a mix of real estate figures and Trump friends, including Keith Frankel, a vitamins executive who had worked with Trump on hydroxychloroquine, an anti-malarial drug Trump had falsely touted as a coronavirus cure.

posted by theory at 6:42 PM on October 2, 2020 [11 favorites]

Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship

Biden/Harris should announce that they are cancelling all large maskless non-distanced rallies with chants calling for the locking up of political opponents.
posted by srboisvert at 6:44 PM on October 2, 2020 [76 favorites]

so... hydroxychloroquine doesn't prevent covid-19?
posted by 20 year lurk at 6:49 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Whether officials in the FDA inappropriately approved compassionate use due to Trump's position as President rather than on the basis of medical need is a separate question, and also can't be ruled out.

Not to be all "when the President does it it's not illegal" but "it's for the President" seems to me not only an unsurprising reason to skirt the rules on these things, but a perfectly good one, in general? On the other hand, "it's for the President" also seems like a good reason not to just give the President whatever relatively untested treatment he happens to ask for.
posted by atoxyl at 6:51 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Jason Schreier on Twitter

Sep 27
Rosh Hashana: Ruth Bader Ginsburg dies
Yom Kippur: NYT publishes Trump's tax returns
Sukkot is gonna be wild

Oct 2
TODAY IS SUKKOT
posted by medusa at 6:51 PM on October 2, 2020 [122 favorites]

Beardman: Mad respect to the person on Twitter who responded to #PrayforTrump with a link to Shellac's "Prayer to God"

*Ahem* (27 minutes before the announcement that he'd tested positive). I do worry that I may have accidentally sold my soul to the Devil, so if anyone has any other requests that they'd like me to throw in, speak up now).
posted by Pink Frost at 6:56 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

>Merriam-Webster: Schadenfreude was our top lookup on October 2nd, by a very considerable margin.

Yes, I had ELO's Xanadu running through my head with alternate lyrics until I realized I was pronouncing it incorrectly.
posted by Catblack at 6:58 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

I can maybe envision his final tweets:

"A boy has never wept...nor dashed a thousand kin."
posted by ovvl at 7:01 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Apparently Claudia Conway is telling the internet that her mother has COVID. I feel bad for that kid
posted by Countess Elena at 7:03 PM on October 2, 2020 [17 favorites]

Apparently Claudia Conway is telling the internet that her mother has COVID. I feel bad for that kid

Her mum's just confirmed it on her verified twitter account, so yeah the WH is turning out to be quite the superspreader event.
posted by Buntix at 7:21 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Kellyanne Conway says via tweet that she has tested positive for COVID-19.
posted by RichardP at 7:21 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

Holy moly: Kellyanne is tweeting it too
posted by Nekosoft at 7:22 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

I couldn't resist:

The Unmasqued of the Red Death

They resolved to leave means neither of ingress nor egress to the sudden impulses of despair or of frenzy from within. The abbey was amply provisioned. With such precautions the courtiers might bid defiance to contagion. The external world could take care of itself. In the meantime it was folly to grieve or to think. The prince had provided all the appliances of pleasure. There were buffoons, there were improvisatori, there were ballet-dancers, there were musicians, there was Beauty, there was wine. All these and security were within. Without was the "Red Death."

Spirits were high. Finally, Trump was steering the national discussion away from the coronavirus pandemic — which had already killed more than 200,000 people in the United States and was still raging — to more favorable terrain...

There are some who would have thought him mad. His followers felt that he was not. It was necessary to hear and see and touch him to be sure he was not... they were grotesque... [and] much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust. To and fro in the seven chambers stalked, in fact, a multitude of dreams.

Attendees were so confident that the contagion would not invade their seemingly safe space... [that] after guests tested negative that day they were instructed they no longer needed to cover their faces. The no-mask mantra applied indoors as well. Cabinet members, senators, Barrett family members and others mixed unencumbered at tightly packed, indoor receptions in the White House’s Diplomatic Room and Cabinet Room.

Five days later, that feeling of invincibility was cruelly punctured. There were many individuals in the crowd who had found leisure to become aware of the presence of a masked figure which had arrested the attention of no single individual before. And the rumor of this new presence having spread itself whisperingly around, there arose at length from the whole company a buzz, or murmur, of horror, and of disgust.

"Who dares" -- he demanded hoarsely of the courtiers who stood near him -- "who dares insult us with this blasphemous mockery? Seize him and unmask him -- that we may know whom we have to hang, at sunrise, from the battlements!" yet there were found none who put forth a hand to seize him; so that, unimpeded, he passed within a yard of the prince's person; and while the vast assembly, as with one impulse, shrank from the centers of the rooms to the walls. It was then, however, that he, maddened with rage and the shame of his own momentary cowardice, rushed hurriedly through the six chambers, while none followed him on account of a deadly terror that had seized upon all.

Trump announced that he and the first lady also had tested positive.

posted by BungaDunga at 7:23 PM on October 2, 2020 [29 favorites]

How many of these chickens are going to be coming home to roost?
posted by wabbittwax at 7:23 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Seriously, #RomneyDeathRally was supposed to be just a METAPHOR.
posted by delfin at 7:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

And they said the magathread era was over.

Has Meredith been tested yet?
posted by tonycpsu at 7:31 PM on October 2, 2020 [33 favorites]

How many of these chickens are going to be coming home to roost?

It's like all the town's worst drunk drivers held a drag race and they all crashed into one other in a ball of flames. It's almost impressive.
posted by swift at 7:34 PM on October 2, 2020 [18 favorites]

*schadenfreudegasm*
posted by 20 year lurk at 7:35 PM on October 2, 2020 [26 favorites]

Deleted a whole bunch of a derail about movies because apparently going to the bathroom was a very big mistake!
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 7:42 PM on October 2, 2020 [88 favorites]

Then yield thee, coward,
And live to be the show and gaze o' the time:
We'll have thee, as our rarer monsters are,
Painted on a pole, and underwrit,
"Here may you see the tyrant."

Exeunt omnes
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:43 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Not to be all "when the President does it it's not illegal" but "it's for the President" seems to me not only an unsurprising reason to skirt the rules on these things, but a perfectly good one, in general? On the other hand, "it's for the President" also seems like a good reason not to just give the President whatever relatively untested treatment he happens to ask for.

Well all this rigmarole normally happens with every President because we've traditionally seen the President as a competent adult who is required for basically keeping the country in some semblance of a running state. Since this whole facade has now been demolished people are starting to realize that the President isn't some all important person necessary for the country to function to at least a nominal level.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:49 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Metafilter: apparently going to the bathroom was a very big mistake
posted by medusa at 7:51 PM on October 2, 2020 [57 favorites]

Metafilter: a very big mistake
posted by sixswitch at 7:52 PM on October 2, 2020 [28 favorites]

I was curious about the 17 hour gap between presidental tweets today. After some digging into a collection of data on the president's twitter account from the folks at Factba.se, I learned that in a 1232 day period since the inauguration there have been 121 gaps of 17 hours or more between tweets.

Of course not all activity is directly from the president, and I didn't care to dig into Factbase's guess as who sent each message, so the use of tweets to actually guess at activity levels is dubious at best.

But! The biggest gap between tweets since the inauguration was 23 hours and 48 minutes between noon on March 3rd and 4th, 2018. This is sort of an interesting date, because the president spoke at the Gridiron Club Dinner on the night of the 3rd. This is a political journalism event, similar to the White House Correspondents' Dinner, that presidents almost always attend. The punchline here is that Trump unusually doesn't attend the Correspondents dinner, AND the 2011 dinner was said by some to inspire or accelerate Trump's run for president after Obama called him out for his involvement in birtherism and mocked Trump's presidential potential. So maybe the 2018 Gridiron Club dinner was a big deal to him? I don't know. Just kind of funny.

It also appears that since the account's first tweet in 2009, it has never gone over 24 hours between messages, so if we do ever see that happen, it would at least be unique.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:53 PM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

Now I'm wondering what statistical distribution, if any, the gaps between his tweets follow.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:55 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

Your Childhood Pet Rock: people are starting to realize that the President isn't some all important person necessary for the country to function to at least a nominal level.

...what show have you been watching?!
posted by tzikeh at 7:56 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Metafilter: going to the bathroom was very big
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:56 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

Oh! So with Trump, it’s Patriot Flu (according to Fox News host).
posted by Toecutter at 8:02 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

>Merriam-Webster: Schadenfreude was our top lookup on October 2nd, by a very considerable margin.

Yes, I had ELO's Xanadu running through my head with alternate lyrics until I realized I was pronouncing it incorrectly.

Schadenfreude
Knows how to party
posted by taquito sunrise at 8:07 PM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

I think the basic principle is that democratic elections become a lot less meaningful if democratically elected presidents are shot or taken down by a plague before completing their term. Hence the secret service protection and the top-notch health care.

(Of course, our elections sometimes seem to be heading in an increasingly less democratic direction, and a significant portion of the electorate is proving to be even more terrible than expected, but... we should probably work on doing better in those categories rather than on giving up on the whole idea of keeping our elected officials safe?)
posted by bfields at 8:14 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

the President isn't some all important person necessary for the country to function to at least a nominal level.

And that’s the hell of it because if Trump had done NOTHING and just let the responsible agencies just do their damned jobs we’d have so much better off.
posted by sjswitzer at 8:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [34 favorites]

all our senior pols are dinosaurs. every candidate. 70+ year olds are occasionally gonna die in October.

Seems like we should quit doing that.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:20 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Fox is really going to be spinning a lot of plates if it’s spread to their donor base and even more of their leaders in the Senate
posted by glaucon at 8:20 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

The President isn't all that necessary for the government to function when there's no crisis. But we've all seen that those times never last long.
posted by Kevin Street at 8:21 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

The Trump campaign just sent out a fundraising email with the subject line "Lyin' Obama." The email goes on to mock Joe Biden for being "asleep in his basement." The Biden campaign, meanwhile, has pulled all negative ads.

So I still think Biden's move of pulling negative ads is wise, and this stuff is exactly why.

That small move is dignified, it's principled, it probably doesn't cost him any real ground in the short term, and he has to respond to the moment somehow... and inevitably, Trump's campaign will continue flinging garbage. So within a few days, he can truthfully say, "Hey, I tried," and go back to business.

The pullback is wise as long as it's temporary and measured. The whole "suspend the campaign" stuff is a whole different ball of crazypants and anyone who suggests it should turn off their screens and go to bed.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:26 PM on October 2, 2020 [43 favorites]

Not to be all "when the President does it it's not illegal" but "it's for the President" seems to me not only an unsurprising reason to skirt the rules on these things, but a perfectly good one, in general?

Well, I think it would be unsurprising and reasonable for "it's for the President" to be a reason to hasten or prioritize the decision process, but the point of granting a compassionate use exemption isn't that it's some kind of boon only made available to the deserving: it's supplying an untested/undertested and possibly dangerous drug to someone who has no other options, and such a bad prognosis that the unknown risks of the drug are outweighed by the known likelihood of death or serious complications using only the treatments otherwise available. That's why it's a decision that's supposed to be made based only on medical need, in consultation with the patient's physicians, regulators at the FDA, and the supplier of the drug. If there was political influence on the decision to actually approve the exemption (which is entirely possible), that is stupid (and certainly consistent with Trump's apparent approach to his relationship with his doctors), and a corruption of the process in a way that risks the health of the patient, which in this case is the President of the US.
posted by biogeo at 8:32 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]

And continuing the campaign is honestly a sportsmanlike vote of confidence in DJT’s successful recovery. That’s the best possible outcome here, that DJT recovers this month and Biden beats him fair and square in November.
posted by mochapickle at 8:32 PM on October 2, 2020 [9 favorites]

Also, if anyone wants to complain about this leading to some sort of uneven campaign time advantage, we can talk about how Trump has literally campaigned for 2020 since the inauguration in 2016.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:40 PM on October 2, 2020 [53 favorites]

I'll feel cheated if he dies without getting put behind bars first.

(given the Democrats' toothlessness so far I realize I will likely feel cheated nevertheless, but still...)
posted by ckape at 8:47 PM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

Campaign manager Bill Stepien has tested positive, according to Politico.
posted by theory at 8:59 PM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

I’m firmly of the belief that good things happening that lead to shitty things are still good things. Things are going to be what they are in the end, but I can still rejoice in the good without my worries about the future disrupting that. The shitty would have been shitty anyway, largely because people are going to be who they are, but good is always good.

Hear, hear. For today, I'm gonna enjoy the schaudenfreude and I'm gonna live in a wee bit of hope, the likes of which I haven't had since election day 2016.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:09 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

A friend is calling in the Masque of the Orange Death.
posted by ocschwar at 9:10 PM on October 2, 2020 [50 favorites]

That makes four people from the debate prep room so far who've tested positive. Chris Christie is still waiting for his results. He last tested negative on Tuesday. No word yet from Rudy Giuliani, Jason Miller, or Stephen Miller.
posted by theory at 9:10 PM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]

"Either last week, or a day, or 30 years ago (I am not sure exactly which), I thought there might be a brief respite from the news cycle, so I got up to get a sandwich. When I sat back down, the New York Times had obtained the president’s tax returns and Donald Trump had bitten off debate moderator Chris Wallace’s head, having mistaken him for a bat. Now I’m staring at my phone trying not to blink in the hope that I can prevent any more news from happening. I zoned out briefly, and in the 60 seconds when my mind was elsewhere, October surprised me six times. I hate surprises! [...]

"Every time I close my eyes, even for a brief instant, something new happens that throws the whole year into chaos. I keep being visited by time travelers from two minutes in the future saying they are nostalgic for this time, right now, before the next thing had happened. WHAT THING? But they only sigh and vanish. These things simply cannot keep happening every day. My fragile system cannot take any more of this. I just want to sit down. Well, I am sitting down, but I want to feel like I am sitting down, instead of feeling what I currently feel, which is that my clenched jaw is on the verge of shattering into a thousand pieces and my tensed shoulders are about to punch a hole in the ceiling." -- I've Had Enough News Now, Thank You (Alexandra Petri, Washington Post, October 2, 2020)
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:11 PM on October 2, 2020 [79 favorites]

COVID would not infect Stephen Miller. Professional courtesy between colleagues.
posted by delfin at 9:14 PM on October 2, 2020 [54 favorites]

What happened to journalist 2?
posted by brambleboy at 9:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

Not only did Stephen Miller not catch coronavirus when his wife, Katie, tested positive back in early May, when she returned to work May 26 she announced her pregnancy.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:23 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

What happened to journalist 2?

That may have been Michael Shear of the NY Times
posted by theory at 9:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Journalist 2 is now named as Michael Shear, NYT
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Giuliani has tested negative.
posted by blue suede stockings at 9:25 PM on October 2, 2020

Campaign manager Bill Stepien has tested positive, according to Politico.

Not the campaign manager hospitalized for threatening self-harm.

All the best people.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:26 PM on October 2, 2020 [6 favorites]

Guliani has tested negative.

We'll need three or so days to believe anyone's negative test, including Biden.
posted by benzenedream at 9:27 PM on October 2, 2020 [17 favorites]

Giuliani has tested negative.

Never have I been so disappointed to finish a sentence.
posted by hydrophonic at 9:28 PM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]

> Giuliani has tested negative.

COVID originated in bats, so Rudy's probably had close relatives of COVID-19 circulating in his system since birth.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:29 PM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

just world theory PLS
posted by Jacqueline at 9:30 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

As a reminder, this is the same administration that put political pressure on the CDC and rewrote its guidelines to lie about whether testing for asymptomatic contacts is required, in the hopes it would lead to smaller numbers to support reopening. Somehow I doubt the same set of assholes who wrote these guidelines are going to skip testing in the next few days.
posted by benzenedream at 9:31 PM on October 2, 2020 [25 favorites]

Trump is now on remdesivir in addition to his previous cocktail. I can't tell if they're just being cautious or if that doesn't bode well, since the guidelines (IIRC) currently recommend remdesivir only when patients start to require supplemental oxygen (like a mask or nasal prongs—not a mechanical vent)
posted by un petit cadeau at 9:32 PM on October 2, 2020 [14 favorites]

Giuliani has tested negative.

SLOnion: Rudy Giuliani Tests Positive For Slew Of Obscure Bat Diseases Unrelated To Covid-19
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:37 PM on October 2, 2020 [36 favorites]

COVID would not infect Stephen Miller. Professional courtesy between colleagues.
posted by delfin

The undead don't attack each other.
posted by Pouteria at 9:39 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

COVID wouldn't be able to get any purchase on Miller's sulphur based metabolism anyway.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 9:42 PM on October 2, 2020 [21 favorites]

Contact tracing President Trump in Minnesota: Who hung out with him for how long? (Pioneer Press, Oct. 2, 2020) Trump’s Wednesday itinerary: landing in Minneapolis-St. Paul and greeting supporters and officials; a private fundraiser in a west suburban Shorewood home hosted by Cambria CEO Marty Davis; flights aboard Air Force One with some Republican officials aboard, including Minnesota members of Congress; and an outdoor rally at Duluth International Airport attended by 3,000 people.

"The Shorewood fundraiser was advertised at “$200,000 per couple,” according a flyer. Images and video from the event obtained by the Pioneer Press show a disregard for COVID-19 precautions at times. Trump is not pictured in the images. In some of them, apparently later in the evening after Trump left, video shows Davis and others frolicking close to each other without masks, and singing karaoke."

South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem was in attendance at the private fundraiser. You may remember Gov. Noem from headlines such as South Dakota Governor Dismisses Sturgis Motorcycle Rally COVID-19 Outbreak As 'Fiction' (Newsweek, via MSN, Sept. 9) and South Dakota governor uses coronavirus relief funds for $5 million tourism ad despite COVID surge (AP via CBS, Sept. 10).
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:46 PM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

Trump 'in a race' against Covid-19 and experimental treatment makes it 'a fair fight,' Regeneron CEO says:

"He's in a race where his immune system is racing against the virus, and if the virus wins you can have dire consequences, obviously, and what our antibodies do is we make it a fair fight," Dr. Leonard Schleifer told CNN's Wolf Blitzer.
"He's in a higher risk group for a variety of reasons such as being older, and if we give our antibodies, we hope that we will give his immune system enough of a boost so that he can win this and make a complete recovery," Schleifer said.

Look, I'm not qualified to comment, but should a health care CEO go on Wolf Blitzer and talk like his unproven drug definitely works and should be handed out to anyone in Trump's demographics?
posted by BungaDunga at 9:46 PM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

Do you know anyone who actually walks into a voting booth, looks at a list of specific candidates on that piece of paper, and votes for an unlisted and largely anonymous slate of electors? Heck, I've been voting for a while now, and none of my ballots have even listed the names of the electors.

2/3 states I've voted for President in had text about electors, though not a literal list of names, along with the candidate's name. Number three may have, but I don't have a specific recollection. In one, each space was marked with something along the lines of "Electors for presidential candidate and vice presidential candidate".

It's no less legitimate than any other aspect of representative democracy, where we vote for people who vote on laws and (notionally) otherwise represent our interests.

You are right that perception is important, which is why I asked people not to misrepresent the situation by saying that there isn't any established process in the event that Trump dies before the election. There is a legitimate process to be followed here and saying otherwise is likely to further dilute people's acceptance of government itself. It, in a small way, helps embolden those who would take advantage of our current institutional weakness both politically and also violently.
posted by wierdo at 9:47 PM on October 2, 2020 [12 favorites]

should a health care CEO go on Wolf Blitzer and talk like his unproven drug definitely works and should be handed out to anyone in Trump's demographics

Are you a shareholder? If so, absolutely.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:50 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

The undead don't attack each other.

Which, real talk, is one of the biggest required disbelief suspensions in most zombie movies, especially the more modern version where they try to explain zombism as a plague.

Also fails as an allegory for Republican behavior in general, and in the current situation, on multiple levels.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:51 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]

Are Downfall subtitle memes still a thing? I'd like to see "Trump Finds Out Increasingly Growing Numbers Of Republican Leaders Are Testing Positive For COVID-19"
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:07 PM on October 2, 2020 [20 favorites]

Dr. Leonard Schleifer is speaking in his role as a CEO of a developmental (the D part of R&D) pharmaceutical company, not as a medical doctor.

The American Medical Association needs to be an actual "Professional" certification system and censure shit like this and "Dr. Atlas" and "Dr. Demon Semen" - and everyone else who traffics on being a medical doctor who transgress established understanding for personal gain. ie., lie for profit.

Regeneron either got stupid lucky, or someone with equity in them brokered the deal taking a (personal) huge gamble. Adverse effects with biologics tend to be either very very quick (or very very delayed), so at the expense of a reasonable risk profile, it drops Trump's viral titre as much as possible to give his immune system a fighting chance before the virus has a chance to establish and start disrupting the bradykinin pathways (a strong candidate for the mechanism of mortality and morbidity).

8g feels like a lot lot of peptide. 8 grams! I've seen it related as a 'transfusion' so maybe it's dissolved in a bag or two of saline and transfused into him over a few hours (or more)? Less time if they do a leukapheresis without the pheresis and mainline the dissolved peptides into the stream.

I could imagine Trump being a big spoiled brat and hating getting a drip; only after he was shown the leukapheresis machine and he chickened out.

But reports that he's being put on remdesivir on top of this is nuts. Trump isn't intelligent enough to understand the medical risks he's undertaking, the people "treating" him ... don't care about his wellbeing beyond cya.
posted by porpoise at 10:11 PM on October 2, 2020 [25 favorites]

Even a tired, breathless person might be able to steadily walk to a helicopter; I don't know if it's a sign that he's actually doing worse than earlier in the evening.

Can confirm. I didn't have COVID but I had the worst asthma attack of my life in April that I delayed getting treated because I figured asthma plus the potential of catching SARS-COV-2 was worse than just asthma. I chose poorly .....

Still, I definitely got somewhat used to impaired breathing to the point where I could fake it and move around over short distances if need be.

Anyway, according to the CDC the estimated infection (not case) fatality rate for an individual Trump's age is 0.054. That's 5.4%, and that's before taking into account other potential risk factors like obesity.

The estimated ifr for individuals aged 50 to 69 is 0.005 or 0.5%, again before taking into account additional risk factors.

The estimated ifr for 20-49 is 0.0002 or 0.02%.

I don't think people really appreciate just how much the risk of death from corona increases with age. Considering the average age of the politicians and community leaders Trump likely interacts with, he really put a lot of people at grave risk.

CDC ifr estimate link
posted by eagles123 at 10:24 PM on October 2, 2020 [16 favorites]

being put on remdesivir on top of this is nuts. Trump isn't intelligent enough to understand the medical risks he's undertaking

I mean, it’s pretty obvious he feels backed into a corner and the future that hurts his ego the least is the one where he bounces back faster and more completely than anyone ever. So: roll the dice, pile on the experimental cures. Dying is less humiliating than losing the election because you caught the Chinese Hoax Virus, amirite? [/sarcasm].

Thinking it over, though, if it were Obama would I be like, “screw the FDA’s red tape, it’s the fucking president and if the consensus of the serious doctors on the scene is that it’s the right call, that’s between them and him?” Because I think yeah, I would. Same for all our recent presidents. Thinking it over even further I also realized I don’t extend that to vice-presidents because apparently I have always regarded them as a sort of control group? So that was an interesting thing to realize about my biases and assumptions: I blithely assumed presidents get the bestest borderline-experimental cures, while vice-presidents have to play it by the book. That’s such a weird preconception, but I don’t think I’m alone here.
posted by Ryvar at 10:39 PM on October 2, 2020 [7 favorites]

What I Saw Today at the White House — Hours before President Trump left for Walter Reed, maskless staffers roamed the grounds. And no one asked me if I was sick., The Atlantic, Peter Nicholas, 10/2/2020:

I’ve written twice in recent months about the dangerous conditions around the president—about lax testing of journalists flying with him on Air Force One, about troubling working arrangements inside the executive mansion itself. Trump’s illness seems an outgrowth of the administration’s flagrant disregard for public-health precautions.

And yet, there’s no sign of a real course correction: The practices today seemed every bit as lax. When Trump walked deliberately toward Marine One tonight, in a dark suit and matching mask, he waved to reporters who all day had been trying to find out information about his condition.

But he left a White House that, even though he’s been stricken with a potentially fatal disease, seemed no safer than at any other point in the pandemic. Officials don’t appear to have learned much from the nightmare....

Even while the White House — not to mention the entire country — is figuratively under a surprise attack by a fifth column of foreign Covidian invaders, all anyone in the bunker (Trump most of all) can think about is his welfare.

This is not a picture of leadership, but sycophancy. Barehanded loyalist troops are expected to sacrifice themselves for the Mad King, and they believe him. His biggest problem is not taking care of the troops for a long war, but finding enough fresh replacements to plug up growing gaps in the ranks. Day of infamy, indeed.

The new Covid-19 infected Boss is the same as the old Boss — perhaps with a temporary veneer of contrition to gather sympathy while recovering — but he hasn’t changed.
posted by cenoxo at 10:41 PM on October 2, 2020 [23 favorites]

When the Audie Murphy VA Hospital was built in San Antonio, a special patient room adjacent to the ICU was built and reserved for former president Lyndon Johnson, who lived about an hour away. Or at least that was the plan--LBJ died a few months before the building was opened. (This is what I was told when I came to work there in the 1980s.)
posted by neuron at 10:57 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

Ah, now Ryvar, "if it were Obama" - he like anyone else would be quarantined and observed. If symptoms went beyond discomfort, then a treatment strategy might be devised and debated before implementation.

Trump? Speedrunning someone new to mortality...?
posted by porpoise at 11:01 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]

At least 24 people traveled with Hicks or Trump on the president's plane from Sept. 29 through Oct. 1 – from White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows to Alice Marie Johnson, a prison reform advocate whose life sentence was commuted by Trump. Johnson's tweet two hours ago: Thank you for all of the well wishes and prayers, I tested NEGATIVE!!! To God be the Glory!!!

Kristin Urquiza, a Biden guest at the debate who sat in the front row and has vocally condemned President Trump’s handling of the coronavirus pandemic, told NBC News that she is "terrified" after learning she had been exposed to the virus given that she knows the "darkest results of COVID-19" after seeing her father succumb to the deadly disease. Urquiza later told MSNBC's Ayman Mohyeldin she was getting a COVID-19 test on Friday. [While speaking at the 2020 Democratic National Convention, Kristin Urquiza remembered her father who she lost to coronavirus. "his only pre-existing condition was trusting Donald Trump and for that he paid with his life."]
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:04 PM on October 2, 2020 [13 favorites]

I don't think it's a hoax, because he loooooves his rallies

And he loves the fundraisers even more. So if he's missing opportunities to have even more money shoveled into his coffers.....
posted by gtrwolf at 11:19 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]

The picture in this tweet is the A1 photo in the NYT today. The Barrett event at the White House was not held exclusively outside. The elderly woman talking to Hope Hicks is Antonin Scalia's widow, Maureen McCarthy. The woman in blue behind her is her daughter-in-law, Patricia. Eugene Scalia, Antonin's and Maureen's son, is the Labor Secretary (just in case anyone forgot). Barr's there, too. You can see him in the center rear.

Imagine the directions where the aerosols in peoples' breath would travel while they were talking to each other.

Also, was dude yelling at Melania again? Yeesh.
posted by droplet at 11:21 PM on October 2, 2020 [23 favorites]

Oh geez.
posted by bink at 11:23 PM on October 2, 2020

Letters from An American: [...] 11 staffers from the Cleveland debate also tested positive. The 30-50 Republican donors who met with Trump Thursday night at his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, are “freaking out,” one report noted. Tickets had cost up to $250,000, and Trump met privately with about 19 people for 45 minutes. Trump knew his adviser Hope Hicks had tested positive when he left for the club, but he went anyway. He did not wear a mask.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:42 PM on October 2, 2020 [27 favorites]

Droplet, I think the elderly woman is talking to Amy Coney Barrett.
posted by taz at 11:47 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

The 30-50 Republican donors who met with Trump Thursday night at his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, are “freaking out,”

tfw the journalists have your dopamine button zeroed in and now they're just spamming the fuck out of it
posted by Sauce Trough at 11:57 PM on October 2, 2020 [51 favorites]

Droplet, I think the elderly woman is talking to Amy Coney Barrett.

I see. She looks very similar to me from that distance to Ms. Hicks.

Well, we'll see what happens. I'm sure everyone in the room spoke to Trump or Melania during this klatch. Could Barrett be re-infected from an event like this? I'm sure Trump spoke to her.
posted by droplet at 12:10 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

For clarity, here’s a larger, sharper image of droplet’s “The picture in the tweet is the A1 photo in the NYT today.”, taken by veteran presidential photographer Doug Mills (WP bio and December 2019 interview).
posted by cenoxo at 12:18 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

I don't care about the average death rates. We've all been absorbing death-rate statistics via osmosis for six months.
(I think there's something very wrong with the way they calculate death rates; the US has had 2.87 million recoveries and 208k deaths: that's just shy of 14:1, or ~7%. Counting deaths-vs-cases is ridiculous when testing is so erratic.)

I want to know the odds of a 70+ year old person being incapacitated - unable to move around without assistance for more than walking to a bathroom - for a month or more. Where do we get the statistics on "People who have COVID and spent more than three weeks in a hospital, by age group?"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:30 AM on October 3, 2020 [18 favorites]

Jesus. It sounds like the high school in Tokyo I teach at is being more strict about corona than the White House, with mandatory temperature checks, windows open, plastic dividers around student desks, and mandatory masks for everyone.

I mean, fuck, it’s still a bunch of 12-18 year olds that I constantly have to tell to put their fucking masks back on, and deal with teachers acting like masks are optional in the teachers’ room, but even that sounds better than the White House.
posted by Ghidorah at 12:31 AM on October 3, 2020 [21 favorites]

In America,
Any young boy
Can
Grow up
To be a
Superspreader
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:03 AM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

I mean, fuck, it’s still a bunch of 12-18 year olds that I constantly have to tell to put their fucking masks back on, and deal with teachers acting like masks are optional in the teachers’ room, but even that sounds better than the White House.

ffs. Their coworker Herman Cain arguably died, and they still kept half-assing it.

In most workplaces, you would expect to see changes after the first death.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:07 AM on October 3, 2020 [12 favorites]

I don't care about the average death rates. We've all been absorbing death-rate statistics via osmosis for six months.
(I think there's something very wrong with the way they calculate death rates; the US has had 2.87 million recoveries and 208k deaths: that's just shy of 14:1, or ~7%. Counting deaths-vs-cases is ridiculous when testing is so erratic.)

I want to know the odds of a 70+ year old person being incapacitated - unable to move around without assistance for more than walking to a bathroom - for a month or more. Where do we get the statistics on "People who have COVID and spent more than three weeks in a hospital, by age group?"

I'm not sure if anyone's calculated the long term effects in terms of percentages yet. I can't imagine they are anything but horrible. I agree the death rates are probably problematic, but at the very least I am satisfied that they are not fucking good.
posted by eagles123 at 1:28 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Don't the participants to the debate have to wait for a few days after exposure to get reliable results ?
posted by nicolin at 1:41 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

This piece by David Roth was linked way above, and it is really well-written. Thanks to who found and posted it. It has this insight which I feel even those who won't click the link should read:

The basic premise of Trumpism and the fundamental promise that Trump has made during his political career is that those who are with him will be treated one way, and those who are not will be treated in another, much worse way. Because of how Trump is—because of how avaricious and joyless he is, and because of how fearful and paranoid he is, and because of how unrelentingly aggrieved he is—this promise is fundamentally negative. Only the most powerful of the people that fell into formation behind him will receive any positive benefit from anything that he does; this is axiomatic, as Trump doesn’t do anything for anyone other than himself. Everyone that follows him understands and accepts this to some extent, and the less influential of those who lined up behind him either out of perceived interest or some rote and sour habit or pure servile instinct surely know as much. They also know that they will receive a more diffuse but still quite valuable dividend for their service, which is the certainty that they will never be treated as badly as the people on the other side.

posted by mumimor at 1:42 AM on October 3, 2020 [71 favorites]

I mean, to get reliable test results ?
posted by nicolin at 2:49 AM on October 3, 2020

It can certainly be 4-5 days before a test pops positive after exposure, yes. No-one present at the debate who is currently testing negative (such as the Bidens) can yet be presumed to have escaped Trump infecting them. If they make it through the weekend without positive test results they can start feeling optimistic, and if they make it through next weekend they can probably breathe a sigh of relief.

I do think the media hasn't quite grasped how possible it is for Trump to have spewed so much virus all over that stage that Joe Biden will catch it. Perhaps they find it literally unthinkable.
posted by Justinian at 2:59 AM on October 3, 2020 [18 favorites]

I think at this point people are like phew, Biden was negative so things are ok. But of course we don't know. I recently was exposed to COVID-19 through prolonged contact. I got a test at 4 days because I'm ~~running for president~~ anxious, but the negative tests at 10 and 14 days were the reassuring ones. (I didn't get sick, probably because we were both wearing masks.)
posted by medusa at 3:48 AM on October 3, 2020 [12 favorites]

Holy shit Kellyanne too.
posted by Cocodrillo at 3:57 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Too soon?
posted by essexjan at 4:17 AM on October 3, 2020 [62 favorites]

The President isn't all that necessary for the government to function when there's no crisis. But we've all seen that those times never last long.

Most of our recent crises were initiated or exacerbated by this president.
posted by Foosnark at 4:33 AM on October 3, 2020 [15 favorites]

Twitter Comms
tweets that wish or hope for death, serious bodily harm or fatal disease against *anyone* are not allowed and will need to be removed. this does not automatically mean suspension.

Almost every reply is some variant of “this is news to me because me or my minority group have a fucking book of them”.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:44 AM on October 3, 2020 [110 favorites]

Huh, if Ruth Bader Ginsburg had not died, the Amy Coney Barrett event at the White House would not have taken place. Now, I know it's not certain that the ceremony was a super-spreader event, and even if it was my own worldview precludes me from thinking it means anything more than "shit happens," but I've still been thinking about it.
posted by Epixonti at 4:52 AM on October 3, 2020 [12 favorites]

A policy that never gets applied to tweets from Trump, himself, where he threatens people in those exact ways. Until someone copies his words verbatim.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:54 AM on October 3, 2020 [41 favorites]

Further evidence of a moral universe: had republicans agreed that it was in poor taste to nominate a new justice so close to an election, the Barrett event wouldn’t have taken place either. They made their choice. Shit happens.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:55 AM on October 3, 2020 [23 favorites]

I know that Biden will never run an ad like this (and that it's good that he doesn't) but I'm really hoping for a Project Lincoln ad along the lines of...

"President Trump couldn't keep himself or his family safe from coronavirus.... How do you expect him to keep your family protected?"
posted by Candleman at 4:57 AM on October 3, 2020 [16 favorites]

Secret Service agents are pissed.

Secret Service agents expressed their anger and frustration to colleagues and friends Friday, saying that the president’s actions have repeatedly put them at risk. “He’s never cared about us,” one agent told a confidant, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the internal reaction.

Former Secret Service agents said it was unheard of for agents to openly complain about their president but that some currently in the ranks had become convinced during the pandemic that Trump was willing to put his protectors in harm’s way.

Agents who work in field offices around the country complained that since late August, they are no longer being tested when they return home from working at a rally for the president.

“This administration doesn’t care about the Secret Service,” one current agent relayed in an internal discussion group. “It’s so obvious.”

posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:03 AM on October 3, 2020 [69 favorites]

Trump doesn’t do anything for anyone other than himself

Roth is a gift, and that he is writing at Defector makes them well worth the subscription. That we went most of a year before getting a voice like his, or the killed even earlier Splinter (and their new blog, the Discourse) back up and reporting on this shit is a goddamn shame.

And, as always, Roth captures it. Trump is a shark, an endless machine of want, and for a while, other beings manage to latch on to his slipstream, feasting off the scraps he throws behind him. Anything smaller than himself that wanders into his field of vision, he attacks and devours. Over time, those who would become his targets/rivals have learned to suck the teat instead.

I'd love to see some sort of truth and reconciliation commission, but this being America, if we're lucky, we'll max out at "let's not talk about the past, let's try to make the present better" or some similar sort of bullshit.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:21 AM on October 3, 2020 [26 favorites]

"let's not talk about the past, let's try to make the present better" or some similar sort of bullshit.

Agree, and fuck that. This era needs to be litigated, prosecuted and legislated out of existence.
posted by glaucon at 5:34 AM on October 3, 2020 [21 favorites]

“This administration doesn’t care about the Secret Service,” one current agent relayed in an internal discussion group. “It’s so obvious.”

Transpose this to, say, the year 41 AD in Rome, and substitute "Praetorian Guard" for "Secret Service".

I'm not suggesting that agents would stab the leader in a hallway, drag his body through the streets and dump him in the river.

But, if there's a constitutional crisis and there are doubts as to who the legitimate leader of the country is, this could be one less group that he could depend on to respond when he barks orders at them.
posted by gimonca at 5:40 AM on October 3, 2020 [14 favorites]

goodness, though, I gotta say that I never really considered “completely incapacitated by disease” as an option for how to get around breathtaking, history-making abuses of presidential pardon powers between November and January
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:56 AM on October 3, 2020 [23 favorites]

Sen. Ron Johnson (WI-R) is the third Senator to test positive for COVID-19 in 48 hours.
posted by Fritzle at 6:16 AM on October 3, 2020 [21 favorites]

Am I the only person who is not shocked that in the wake of a scary diagnosis, this massive idiot germaphobe is demanding all the drugs? Who cares if it’s clinically necessary or not, of course he’s going to insist on getting everything.
posted by Maarika at 6:19 AM on October 3, 2020 [31 favorites]

Based on how everything else in 2020 has turned out, he's going to have a reaction to all of those drugs and come out of this with superpowers.
posted by mmoncur at 6:24 AM on October 3, 2020 [19 favorites]

It would be a shame if some or all of these last measure largely untested treatments reacted incredibly poorly with each other.

A goddamn shame.
posted by Ghidorah at 6:24 AM on October 3, 2020 [22 favorites]

"President Trump couldn't keep himself or his family safe from coronavirus.... How do you expect him to keep your family protected?"

Literally the day after anti-masker and "COVID is harmless to children" governor Mike Parson announced he and his wife were positive for the coronavirus, I got a text from his campaign that started with "Mike Parson has been working hard to keep Missourians safe during COVID-19..."

(Also Parson's office still refuses to say how many staffers have tested positive, nor will they answer any questions about where Parson traveled and who he had contact with. )
posted by Foosnark at 6:28 AM on October 3, 2020 [13 favorites]

I suppose it's indicative of the level of paranoia this administration has fostered that there's a growing voice in my head telling me we're all being masterfully played and this is a massive operation that will *somehow* end up serving the election on a silver platter for Trump.

Obviously, he hasn't the mental capacity to design something as Machiavellian as this, but he does have Roger Stone on his side, so...
posted by Thorzdad at 6:29 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

I have a little list. Tr*mp, M*rdoch, D*tton. They'd none of them be missed.
posted by h00py at 6:31 AM on October 3, 2020 [13 favorites]

Trump, other insiders test positive for COVID: A running list of those close to the White House being tested and their results, USA Today, Kristine Phillips & Kevin Johnson, Updated 8:19 a.m. ET Oct 3, 2020:

President Donald Trump
First lady Melania Trump
Hope Hicks, senior advisor to the president
Bill Stepien, Trump’s campaign manager
Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel
Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah
Sen. Thom Tillis, R-North Carolina
Three White House reporters
One White House staffer
Kellyanne Conway, former White House senior advisor
The Rev. John Jenkins, president of Notre Dame University (Jenkins was at the White House Saturday, when Trump introduced Judge Amy Coney Barrett as his Supreme Court nominee. Barrett was a law professor at Notre Dame for 15 years before Trump nominated her to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit.)

Check the article for negative test results and where Trump has traveled and been with the past seven days.
posted by cenoxo at 6:37 AM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

Sen. Ron Johnson (WI-R) is the third Senator to test positive for COVID-19 in 48 hours.

Told you Dems would take the Senate in 2020.
posted by fullerine at 6:38 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

Is Johnson on Judiciary?
posted by saturday_morning at 6:40 AM on October 3, 2020

No he is not
posted by scottatdrake at 6:41 AM on October 3, 2020

cenoxo:
"Three White House reporters
One White House staffer"

And a partridge in a pear tree.

Fuck this Christmas.
posted by chavenet at 6:43 AM on October 3, 2020 [12 favorites]

I know the initial line was that Hope Hicks was responsible for the spread, but given the amount of infection in the high level Republican ranks is there any way to know for sure, other than she was the first to test positive? It really feels like they’re just claiming the attractive eminently huggable young woman led all the old white men to ruin and it strikes me as gross and a bit misogynistic, which is par for the course from these people, but still.
posted by mikesch at 6:43 AM on October 3, 2020 [98 favorites]

Obviously, he hasn't the mental capacity to design something as Machiavellian as this, but he does have Roger Stone on his side, so...

Yeah, a lot of people keep assuming they’re playing 12 dimensional chess at this point but these people aren’t that smart. Turns out you can get a long way with brute force and ignorance. And just being gigantic gigantic assholes all the time.
posted by mikesch at 6:46 AM on October 3, 2020 [16 favorites]

you almost **never ever** give someone a clinically untested drug like @Regeneron
’s polyclonal antibody drug—unless it’s for compassionate use for someone severely ill, or you’re crazy. Right @VincentRK
? This smacks of utter craziness or desperation. #COVID19 #TrumpCovid

Can confirm. I once tried to get compassionate use of an in-trial mAb for a patient; it requires a full IRB review. Walter Reed is not an existing site for this trial, meaning they had to submit the IRB proposal and convene the reviewers and obtain approval in < 12 hours, which if you are at all familiar with IRBs, leans heavily on the desperate side.
posted by basalganglia at 6:47 AM on October 3, 2020 [28 favorites]

Covid at the white house contact tracker
posted by robbyrobs at 6:48 AM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

you almost **never ever** give someone a clinically untested drug like @Regeneron's polyclonal antibody drug—unless it’s for compassionate use for someone severely ill, or you’re crazy.

Apparently, earlier this week Fox had been pumping up Regeneron. I think it could easily been a direct request from their biggest fan.
posted by bonehead at 6:48 AM on October 3, 2020 [10 favorites]

For all of you Bill Barr fans out there, here's a delicious video of a close, intense conversation he had with Kelly Ann Conway (now tested positive) at the WH SC event. One can only hope (and fuck that let's pray for all of the monsters bullshit).
posted by bluesky43 at 6:51 AM on October 3, 2020 [22 favorites]

The virus does not care if you are campaigning or trying to jam through a Supreme Court nominee. To ignore the risk is to endanger others’ lives. (WaPo)

To people like Mitch McConnell, this situation is like something out of an action movie where the hero suffers a mortal wound while completing their mission, but dies content in the knowledge that they have saved the day...except in this case "saved the day" means "took peoples' health care away."
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:52 AM on October 3, 2020 [20 favorites]

...And a partridge in a pear tree.

‘Tis the holiday season coming up: COVID-19 is the gift that keeps on ~~giving~~ taking.
posted by cenoxo at 6:53 AM on October 3, 2020

> Turns out you can get a long way with brute force and ignorance. And just being gigantic gigantic assholes all the time.

This was indeed the secret to Rob Ford's success.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:56 AM on October 3, 2020 [15 favorites]

Sen. Ron Johnson (WI-R) is the third Senator to test positive for COVID-19 in 48 hours.
Told you Dems would take the Senate in 2020.

Johnson isn’t up for re-election this year, unfortunately. He’s a useless lightweight, and I was so despondent when he got re-elected in 2016. I honestly felt more conspiratorial about that than I did about Trump’s election because the polling numbers had really favored his challenger. But we’ve gotta wait til 2022 to have another shot at him.

(Unless this comment is hoping for an ouster by biological means?)
posted by eirias at 7:06 AM on October 3, 2020

I know the initial line was that Hope Hicks was responsible for the spread, but given the amount of infection in the high level Republican ranks is there any way to know for sure

Given what we know of the timeline, I think it's actually much more likely Hope Hicks wasn't the first case. It seems much more likely that the Rose Garden ceremony was a spreading event (possibly one of multiple spreading events....) where Hicks and others got it.

Whoever brought it to that ceremony is currently unknown. Given the lack of masking and distancing among many of the invitees, there are a ton of potential sources. (I'm selfishly hoping that someone out there is sampling to do a phylogenetic network analysis and work out the source, but something tells me they're not hanging on to that type of evidence.)
posted by pie ninja at 7:10 AM on October 3, 2020 [13 favorites]

The European Medicines Agency have started has started a review of a safety signal to assess reports of acute kidney injury in some patients with COVID-19 taking Veklury (remdesivir).
I heard this during an interview with Prof Thomas Benfield* (link to Danish text summary, not the interview), where he also said that it was weird that the president was given remdesivir before needing oxygen, it was not what he would describe as best practice. He was also very surprised about the Regeneron, given the current reports on the President's condition. But, he said, they do things differently in America.

*Benfield is head of the department for infectious diseases at one of the largest Danish hospitals and treats many of the country's corona-patients.
posted by mumimor at 7:13 AM on October 3, 2020 [12 favorites]

Apparently, earlier this week Fox had been pumping up Regeneron. I think it could easily been a direct request from their biggest fan.

Soooo, you’re saying this is all just a marketing stunt for Regeneron? “It saved the president!”
posted by Thorzdad at 7:15 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

The best explainer I've seen about the experimental drugs Trump is being given. Rachel Maddow video.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:16 AM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

I genuinely cannot understand all the hand-wringing and seriousness theorizing about how he got past restrictions on an experimental drug. He's...the President??? I know and understand and believe the people with lived clinical experience of how hard it is to get on a fancy drug, but have you ever run into those issues while treating the literal US President?

It means absolutely nothing in terms of how sick or not sick he is. The Fox hype and king baby pointing to the tv and saying "want!" makes more sense than anything else. There is no hindrance to getting what you want when you're POTUS. Rules do not apply.
posted by phunniemee at 7:22 AM on October 3, 2020 [53 favorites]

I wouldn't draw too much inference about the severity of his condition from the treatments being provided. You know that if he's even conscious and able to communicate, he's demanding ALL THE DRUGS. ALL OF THEM. For all we know, they gave him an Advil and told him it was Regeneron.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:22 AM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

Agents who work in field offices around the country complained that since late August, they are no longer being tested when they return home from working at a rally for the president

This is so pointlessly mean spirited. COLLEGES out here are offering Covid testing after high risk events. And the secret service can’t even get them?
posted by corb at 7:26 AM on October 3, 2020 [23 favorites]

Soooo, you’re saying this is all just a marketing stunt for Regeneron? “It saved the president!”

Kinda looks that way, the CEO went on CNN.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:27 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Kinda looks that way, the CEO went on CNN.

REGN is up $20 A/H. Investigate the fuck out of every person who bought Regeneron stock or options between 4pm Thursday and 4pm Friday. Especially options. There was a huge spike in volume before the announcement. I can guarantee that the REGN call options are going to skyrocket Monday morning. I also guarantee you'll find some link to a couple of senior cabinet members or Republican leadership.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:35 AM on October 3, 2020 [55 favorites]

I keep expecting to hear that the President is dead.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:40 AM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

The Fall of Rome

(for Cyril Connolly)

The piers are pummelled by the waves;
In a lonely field the rain
Lashes an abandoned train;
Outlaws fill the mountain caves.

Fantastic grow the evening gowns;
Agents of the Fisc pursue
Absconding tax-defaulters through
The sewers of provincial towns.

Private rites of magic send
The temple prostitutes to sleep;
All the literati keep
An imaginary friend.

Cerebrotonic Cato may
Extol the Ancient Disciplines,
But the muscle-bound Marines
Mutiny for food and pay.

Caesar's double-bed is warm
As an unimportant clerk
Writes I DO NOT LIKE MY WORK
On a pink official form.

Unendowed with wealth or pity,
Little birds with scarlet legs,
Sitting on their speckled eggs,
Eye each flu-infected city.

Altogether elsewhere, vast
Herds of reindeer move across
Miles and miles of golden moss,
Silently and very fast.

W.H. Auden, 1951
posted by thatwhichfalls at 7:41 AM on October 3, 2020 [57 favorites]

There is no hindrance to getting what you want when you're POTUS. Rules do not apply.

“I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:42 AM on October 3, 2020 [10 favorites]

Cyril Connolly?
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 7:46 AM on October 3, 2020 [13 favorites]

(semi carnally)
posted by h00py at 7:47 AM on October 3, 2020 [25 favorites]

this is all just a marketing stunt for Regeneron? “It saved the president!”

I don't find it surprising that there's a greasy "follow the money" confidence game going on taking advantage of Trump's Health. Con artists are often the worst suckers themselves.
posted by bonehead at 7:48 AM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

There is no hindrance to getting what you want when you're POTUS. Rules do not apply.

Exactly.

I'm baffled by people trying to figure out how a man elected with foreign election interference, who obstructed justice to cover that up and faced no repercussions, who ignored the emoluments clause and enriched himself in office, whose administration is largely "interim" appointees not vetted by Congress, who used military funds to pay for a pointless racist vanity project, etc. etc. ad infinitum, managed to skirt some rules.

He just ignored the rules and did what he wanted. That's his entire thing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:49 AM on October 3, 2020 [53 favorites]

sero-carnally.

is it worth noting -- as we have here not infrequently discussed the blood libel and a certain conspiracy's recurring claims that some reviled others are harvesting blood and hormone metabolites from abused children -- that the president's go-to treatment is an experimental biologic product derived from covid-19 patients' blood serum?
posted by 20 year lurk at 7:59 AM on October 3, 2020 [13 favorites]

I believe the Regeneron therapy is derived from humanized mice, not humans. They infected mice engineered with human immune systems with SARS-CoV-2 to generate antibodies that they then duplicated.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:01 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

I think you may be reading surprise or shock that is not there. Of course we expect him to do illegal things. We still need to note that they are illegal, because to start ignoring his illegal acts is to buy into his narrative that he is above the law. And honestly the narrative of most modern presidents that they are above the law.

Look if this was an off-label use of a widely administered drug with known side effects, I would be less picky about this. But there is real harm in giving the President of the United States a drug that is barely out of Stage 1 just because he's cronies with the CEO.
posted by muddgirl at 8:04 AM on October 3, 2020 [10 favorites]

There is no hindrance to getting what you want when you're POTUS. Rules do not apply.

Yes of course, but wouldn't any sane human want the best care, rather than the snake oil peddled by some random guy?
posted by mumimor at 8:05 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

He just ignored the rules and did what he wanted. That's his entire thing.

the velocity of shamelessness
posted by philip-random at 8:05 AM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

As someone who has been in medicine for 30+ years, I find the news that’s trickling out about Trump’s illness interesting. I don’t believe in giving VIPs special treatment; every patient should get my best. With that in mind, why would anyone try an experimental drug on the president without a compelling reason? As others have mentioned above some rules were certainly bent to do this. But it probably wasn’t rushed through the FDA/IRB, etc. as much as some have speculated. I imagine the White House medical staff saw this as a real possibility and had plans laid out in advance. The remdesivir makes more sense as does going ahead and admitting him, but is it out of an abundance of caution or because he is sicker than stated? And he sure has been quiet since the diagnosis. Very out of character.
posted by TedW at 8:06 AM on October 3, 2020 [23 favorites]

i stand corrected. thanks BungaDunga.
posted by 20 year lurk at 8:09 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

Based on how everything else in 2020 has turned out, he's going to have a reaction to all of those drugs and come out of this with superpowers.

Technically Swamp Thing has ‘superpowers’ but I wouldn’t want to go through that or have the full results. But then, the Orange Dragon was already slime, so it’s not a huge transformation.
posted by mephron at 8:13 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

As a horror fan, I have zero difficulty believing that Trump might have known he was sick and chosen to his it and continue his schedule, do the debate, fundraiser, Rose Garden event, etc. because he has always had very strong Weaselly Guy Who Hides His Zombie Bite vibes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:14 AM on October 3, 2020 [58 favorites]

Couple comments deleted. Please don't invent new conspiracy theories or fictitious terrible things people might who-knows-in-this-year say, etc; there's enough to keep track of without that. And please don't make sexist jokes even if you think they're zingers against Trump.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:15 AM on October 3, 2020 [13 favorites]

And who knows how many drugs Ronny Jackson left behind in the WH residence that Trump could use to mask Covid symptoms?

They certainly seemed to think they could get away with keeping Hicks' illness under wraps. They failed, obviously, but they seem to have tried.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:19 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

American Board of Internal Medicine - December 9, 2014: V.I.P. Syndrome Can Lead to Bad Care

Additionally, a physician may want to believe he or she is putting the patient first by acquiescing to special requests; however, by disregarding rules, regulations and guidelines, he or she may actually be putting the patient at risk.

h/t Natalie E. Dean, Assistant Professor of Biostatistics at University of Florida, who has some solid COVID posts
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 8:21 AM on October 3, 2020 [27 favorites]

As a horror fan, I have zero difficulty believing that Trump might have known he was sick and chosen to his it and continue his schedule, do the debate, fundraiser, Rose Garden event, etc. because he has always had very strong Weaselly Guy Who Hides His Zombie Bite vibes.

This is a hell of a marketing setup for the new horror flick President Zombie.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:24 AM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

Also steroids and antibodies together are kind of contraindicated aren't they? You want antibodies early to stop replication as much as possible and steroids later on to calm everything down when the immune system is carpet bombing the body. Putting them both together it's like, either he recieved antibodies that aren't going to help or steroids that are going to shut down his immune system while it's still ramping up to fight.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:25 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

Chris Christie makes 25.
posted by 445supermag at 8:26 AM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

its not a drinking game. it's not a drinking game. it's not a drinking game
posted by joeyh at 8:28 AM on October 3, 2020 [36 favorites]

Both Christie and Scott are saying they "misspoke" when they said "positive" instead of "negative." Such an easy mistake to make!
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:30 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

Regeneron, if it is going to help, has to be administered early on during the course of infection. It works best for seronegative people (those not already producing antibodies) because it is, essentially externally administered antibodies. I don't know what Trump's status was. If you are already producing antibodies its effects are minimal or questionable.

This is from a summary to potential investors which tends to either put a more positive light on the results or tries to baffle them regarding the lack of wonderfulness.

[The] nasopharyngeal viral load through Day 7 in the seronegative group was a 0.60 log10 copies/mL greater reduction (p=0.03) in patients treated with high dose, and a 0.51 log10 copies/mL greater reduction (p=0.06) in patients treated with low dose, compared to placebo.

It worked better for those with a high level of virus which is what seronegative people tend to have. It reduced viral nasopharyngeal viral load by 0.6 log10 which a fancy way of saying about an 8-fold decrease. (If you had 80,000 particles counted before you would have 10,000.)

To quote further:

"Patients who were seronegative and/or had higher baseline viral levels also had greater benefits in terms of symptom alleviation. Among seronegative patients, median time to symptom alleviation (defined as symptoms becoming mild or absent) was 13 days in placebo, 8 days in high dose (p=0.22), and 6 days in low dose (p=0.09)."

For a researcher the above represents p-value hell. It proved none of the said claims.

"More than 2,000 people have been enrolled across the overall REGN-COV2 development program, and no unexpected safety findings have been reported by the Independent Data Monitoring Committee."

(emphasis mine) This is research speak for avoiding discussing the adverse effects. No unexpected adverse effects? The patient turned purple, floated up, and bounced against the ceiling. We expected that. With 2000 people you'll get a few adverse effects.

This statement is more significant. " Infusion reactions were seen in 4 patients (2 on placebo and 2 on REGN-COV2). Serious adverse events occurred in 2 placebo patients, 1 low dose patient and no high dose patients. There were no deaths in the trial."

So, in summary. If you are going to use it, use it early, use it in high dose, use it for someone seronegative. For those with high viral load and those seronegative, it does change a marker, viral load, to a statistically significant degree. Changing a marker is not the same as improving health. For that, there is a trend, but not statistical significance. Which is to say, it will sell a lot, be used for the wrong set of COVID-19 infected patients at the wrong time, and provide little benefit. Polyclonal antibodies are relatively safe, but there will be some folks with bad reactions.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:30 AM on October 3, 2020 [17 favorites]

Are they actually dumb enough to think positive=good and that's why they're making mistakes about their test results?
posted by hazyjane at 8:31 AM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

Oh come on! Cam Newton wasn't even there!

THE MONSTERS.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:32 AM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

its not a drinking game. it's not a drinking game. it's not a drinking game

2020 is a drinking game.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:34 AM on October 3, 2020 [27 favorites]

President Zombie.

much as I've come to dislike the entire genre, I'd be lying if I said I didn't see huge potential in a zombie movie being maybe the only way to accurately depict the true essence of the current president of the USA -- certainly in a way that might transcend existing divisions (some of them anyway).

I do think that one of the factors that has allowed Mr. Trump to get away with as much shit as he has is that very many people just can't imagine that anyone (let alone the president) could be such a fundamentally rotten, awful, atrocious (add your own adjective) clown.
posted by philip-random at 8:35 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

Trump, other insiders test positive for COVID
A bunch of people decided that gravity was a hoax , jumped off a cliff to prove their point, and kept shouting "HA HA I'M REALLY FLYING" until the inevitable splat.
posted by elgilito at 8:36 AM on October 3, 2020 [25 favorites]

Isn't it fair to Occam's Razor the situation and just assume Trump insists on getting ALL THE TREATMENTS (Regeneron, remdesivir, whatever we next hear he's taking) because he's been pumping them up and hawking them so relentlessly and therefore they must be a good idea? I can't imagine any medical professional who warns about risks and side effects being able to override his avarice and pride.
posted by saturday_morning at 8:40 AM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

2020 is a drinking game.

I'm mandated to teetotal until my Lyme disease clears up. 2020 will culminate with me screaming "WITNESS ME!!!"
posted by ocschwar at 8:40 AM on October 3, 2020 [27 favorites]

I just keep thinking, if Trump isn't dying but just sick and quarantined, they really need to have him do the town hall debate on Zoom like the rest of us have to do our shit.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:42 AM on October 3, 2020 [12 favorites]

chris christie un-misspoke: https://twitter.com/GovChristie/status/1312416381758050305

"I just received word that I am positive for COVID-19."
posted by Kybard at 8:43 AM on October 3, 2020 [14 favorites]

I should've known Trump just wanted to try Fizzy Lifting Drink, dances. Now we have to clean the ceiling.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:44 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

I find it disheartening that Mike Pence, The Mayonnaise That Walks Like A Man, has somehow managed to escape all this.
posted by mephron at 8:44 AM on October 3, 2020 [51 favorites]

The journal Science has a short explainer about the medicines Trump is taking.
posted by brambleboy at 8:48 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

Can they just stop saying "positive" or "negative" and just say "the good result" or "the bad result". I guess that wouldn't work either, since good or bad will depend on the politics of the speaker and the listener.
posted by 445supermag at 8:48 AM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

Nobody has said anything about how well Melania is doing. I hate her, but it would be very bad optics to lose her, too, so I wish her well. Man, this administration is making me mean. I hope she has a lady’s maid or something who cares.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:48 AM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

Agreed. I want her to be okay for her son’s sake.
posted by _Mona_ at 8:50 AM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

445supermag: Can they just stop saying "positive" or "negative"

'I have COVID-19' or 'I do not have COVID-19' would work but I guess that makes too much sense.
posted by Too-Ticky at 8:52 AM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

Dr. Conley was just on MSNBC talking about how well Trump was doing, saying Trump told him he felt like he could walk right on out of there. That I can believe. Who knows what the rest of it means?
posted by Countess Elena at 8:53 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

Isn't it fair to Occam's Razor the situation and just assume Trump insists on getting ALL THE TREATMENTS
Trump's Razor applies at least as well.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:53 AM on October 3, 2020

Melania’s chief of staff recently reported that she’s doing well, resting, and in constant contact with her husband. I refuse to believe the constant contact part.
posted by mochapickle at 8:53 AM on October 3, 2020 [14 favorites]

'I do not have COVID-19' are you sure? Positive!
posted by InkaLomax at 8:54 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

chris christie un-misspoke:

Perhaps in time the concept of Schrödinger’s Cat will be replaced by Christie’s Diagnosis.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:55 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

chris christie un-misspoke:

I was just kicking myself for making a fake news post my first comment on this thread and getting the mods to zap it... but 2020 is like Star Trek, with infinite number of worlds to visit, so many are like Earth but just slightly off.
posted by 445supermag at 9:00 AM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

... with infinite number of worlds to visit, so many are like Earth but just slightly off.

My pet theory is that we were on the correct timeline until Bowie died in January, 2016.

He was the one holding it together for all of us.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:03 AM on October 3, 2020 [63 favorites]

If Trump actually feels well, he'll be tweeting like a fiend. That's the metric. I'll believe that he's well when he's tweeting in his normal style at his normal rate.
posted by Frowner at 9:03 AM on October 3, 2020 [21 favorites]

"The Truth is, These are Not Very Bright Guys, and Things Got Out of Hand. . ."
posted by Harry Caul at 9:05 AM on October 3, 2020 [16 favorites]

If nothing else, this inability to remember the difference between positive and negative suggests that these people are not in the habit of doing regular STI screens, and that’s ... pretty on message for them, honestly.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:09 AM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

I want her to be okay for her son’s sake.

I remain baffled by the idea that either Trump could give two shits about their offspring as anything other than a prop. Also the kid is 14 - by that point I was selling weed, working under the table, and hitchhiking across state lines. Barron will be just fine (he'll be totally fucked, I just mean he'll be fine without his parents).
posted by aspersioncast at 9:10 AM on October 3, 2020 [36 favorites]

Yeah. As soon as 45 is actually able to handle a phone he'll be crowing about how he beat this disease like the superhero he is. Until/unless that happens, he's Schroedinger's asshole.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:10 AM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

"it's all positive / that's what every single test shows / and it's all in your head / but it's working it's way down to your toes"
posted by aspersioncast at 9:12 AM on October 3, 2020

Schroedinger's asshole.

Simultaneously puckered and utterly, wide open.
posted by weed donkey at 9:12 AM on October 3, 2020 [28 favorites]

he'll be crowing about how he beat this disease like the superhero he is

His supporters are way ahead of you.
posted by 445supermag at 9:12 AM on October 3, 2020

Yeah, I am baffled by people who think the Trumps are doing any actual day to day parenting.
posted by phooky at 9:15 AM on October 3, 2020 [18 favorites]

Barron will be just fine (he'll be totally fucked, I just mean he'll be fine without his parents).

In Anthony Trollope novels, the son of the nobleman who foolishly squandered his fortune typically has a major subplot involving having to marry a wealthy heiress. I have no idea what happens to the children of vanished wealth in non-fictional 21st century America, but I assume they end up having to get real jobs like the rest of us.
posted by jackbishop at 9:17 AM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

> Nobody has said anything about how well Melania is doing.

NPR this morning said that the White House said she had a slight fever and a mild cough, or something along those lines.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:19 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

If Trump actually feels well, he'll be tweeting like a fiend. That's the metric. I'll believe that he's well when he's tweeting in his normal style at his normal rate.

“We included tweets per day as an exploratory outcome, measured at baseline and at weeks 3, 6, 9, and 12.”
posted by eirias at 9:20 AM on October 3, 2020 [17 favorites]

so many are like Earth but just slightly off

In Year of Our Lord Twenty-Twenty, *EARTH* is only kinda like Earth but slightly off.
posted by notsnot at 9:23 AM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

I thought the video of him arriving at Walter Reed was so weird a) because of his military entourage (who was all that brass? Why were they there?) and b) the missing Melania. Would any other President go to the hospital without his wife at his side?
posted by Rash at 9:25 AM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

Trump's doctor said in his briefing that it's now 72 hours since diagnosis, according to the Guardian liveblog. Oops. He also did some beating around the bush about whether Trump had been on oxygen at any point.
posted by Cheerwell Maker at 9:25 AM on October 3, 2020 [23 favorites]

Dr. Conley described Trump as "72 hours into his diagnosis." Which he will be under extreme pressure to walk back in the very near future, as that indicates that he went to his Wednesday-and-beyond activities (the fundraising rally in particular) knowing that he was COVID-positive.

There will be many books written about a critical span of approximately 48 hours, Tuesday morning into Thursday. There will be much speculation, mostly unprovable, as to who was tested and when, who knew the results and what they chose to do about it. Whether or not Trump's late arrival at the debate (too late to be tested, and thus reliant on Trump's honor-system declaration of negativity) was deliberate. Whether Hope Hicks, Amy Coney Barrett, or others were known to have been COVID-exposed before Barrett's coming-out party.

"What did the President know, and when did he know it" is awfully appropriate for a second President troubled by Bob Woodward's investigations. The question here is no longer "Was the Trump administration reckless with the lives of others"; it is whether they chose to deliberately risk the life of his opponent for the Presidency, however slightly, or if his supporters were the only ones who were deemed expendable.
posted by delfin at 9:26 AM on October 3, 2020 [44 favorites]

A somewhat concerning update was just shared with the WH press pool.
posted by leftover_scrabble_rack at 9:26 AM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

If Trump actually feels well, he'll be tweeting like a fiend. That's the metric. I'll believe that he's well when he's tweeting in his normal style at his normal rate.

I realize these people are bad at everything except being evil, but I'm surprised they don't have someone tweeting from his account. It's such an obvious way to signal that he's not that sick.
posted by Mavri at 9:27 AM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

Well if Hope Hicks was his assistant tweeter, then she's sick too. Since he's always used an insecure phone, maybe they can't find the damn thing or nobody has the password. Maybe they're trying to figure out how to disinfect it.
posted by emjaybee at 9:34 AM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

and b) the missing Melania. Would any other President go to the hospital without his wife at his side?

Melania was sick, too. And the president is highly contagious — if you look closely at the footage of his departure, the helicopter pilot is in head to toe PPE.
posted by mochapickle at 9:34 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Someone must have had access to his Twitter in order to post the hostage video shortly before he was airlifted to the hospital.
posted by zixyer at 9:36 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

The question here is no longer "Was the Trump administration reckless with the lives of others"; it is whether they chose to deliberately risk the life of his opponent for the Presidency, however slightly

If they knew he was positive before the debate it wasn't slight.

Right now the best case appears to be that they didn't test him at all before the debate and just claimed they had. The alternative is that they did test him and it came back positive and then they lied about it and that's... even for them no, right?
posted by Justinian at 9:36 AM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

I realize these people are bad at everything except being evil, but I'm surprised they don't have someone tweeting from his account. It's such an obvious way to signal that he's not that sick.

Mainly I think it's because the president tweets like a loon - they'd need to imitate him carefully or it would just read like the ghostwritten tweets, and that would be one more secret to keep in a leaky White House of famously not-bright people. I'm not saying it can't happen, but given how many people are sick and how chaotic everything is, it's probably not a priority. A smarter evil person would have had a plan and substitute tweeter in place, of course.

~~
Trump's horrible family life really depresses me. Who loves him? Not his hired wife, not his birth family, probably Barron because Barron is a kid and it's all he knows, maybe Ivanka. Who does he love, to the extent that he can love? Unclear. Does he have actual friends? It depresses me far more that many Americans admire this type of family life or at least think it's acceptable. It's not so much that I'm sad for Trump qua Trump, but I am sad to see this kind of family life propagate itself down the generations, loveless and warped. It really is a sign of American rot that we don't even really demand that our leaders fake a loving family convincingly.

I guess that was always the risk of what one of my professors called "modernism with the lid off" - that we'd look full-on at the horrors of our society and love the horror.
posted by Frowner at 9:37 AM on October 3, 2020 [77 favorites]

I assume they end up having to get real jobs like the rest of us.

I got curious and looked up Svetlana Stalina*. Looks like she mostly wrote, lectured, and worked as a translator, both before and after defecting.

*Apologies if I messed up her name; I'm still learning the Russian naming system and it looks like at least later in life she purged all aspects of her father's name from hers?
posted by kalimac at 9:40 AM on October 3, 2020

The family in Arrested Development was closer and more loving than the Trumps.
posted by Miko at 9:41 AM on October 3, 2020 [24 favorites]

even for them no, right?

This is the administration that instituted forced sterilizations. They would absolutely do something like that. I'd be surprised if we ever find out that they didn't intentionally expose Biden.
posted by zixyer at 9:41 AM on October 3, 2020 [17 favorites]

ghostwritten tweets

There's a joke here about Herman Cain's Twitter account.... which might have been a lesson for those open to learning anything.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 9:41 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

Are they actually dumb enough to think positive=good and that's why they're making mistakes about their test results?

You mean like this?
posted by essexjan at 9:44 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

I don't believe this White House would tell us if Trump has to be intubated or otherwise fully incapacitated. Not until he either recovered or died.

Far as I can tell, Pence could functionally be president right now and they wouldn't tell us until they can't cover it up anymore.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:49 AM on October 3, 2020 [19 favorites]

Are they actually dumb enough to think positive=good and that's why they're making mistakes about their test results?

Donald is COVID Aladeen.
posted by tclark at 9:51 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

It really is a sign of American rot that we don't even really demand that our leaders fake a loving family convincingly.

Not contesting the point, but has that ever actually been demanded of Republicans in the last 40 years? Unless Reagan had some offspring I'm not remembering, isn't Barron the youngest scion of a Republican president during that time? I can't remember if the Bush twins ever lived in the White House, but they're right around my age and would have been of majority, or close to it, by the time Dubya assumed office.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:54 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

Jim Acosta@Acosta: The WH TV pool just received this quote from “a source familiar with the President's health...” - “The President's vitals over last 24 hours were very concerning and the next 48 hours will be critical in terms of his care. We are still not on a clear path to a full recovery." 9:15 AM · Oct 3, 2020

Separate from the above: Is McEnamy still speaking from the podium to address the press pool, when she ought to be self-quarantining too? Come to think of it, the entire WH press pool was exposed to their 3-4 colleagues who are now COVID-19 positive.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:54 AM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

All of this speculation and tea-leaf reading about the president's health because we know we can't trust the official line is very late-Soviet-Union stuff.
posted by emjaybee at 9:55 AM on October 3, 2020 [112 favorites]

They're already trying to walk back the '72 hours into the diagnosis' thing because that strongly implies Trump knew he was infected on Tuesday and deliberately showed up late to the debate so he could weasel out of being tested at the venue like everyone else was, deliberately exposed a presidential candidate and never informed him of it after the fact, then went on to deliberately expose hundreds more people including many of his own supporters.
posted by theory at 9:55 AM on October 3, 2020 [45 favorites]

Right now the best case appears to be that they didn't test him at all before the debate and just claimed they had. The alternative is that they did test him and it came back positive and then they lied about it and that's... even for them no, right?

Melania was the only Trump family member to even consider wearing a mask at the debate; she reportedly entered wearing one, but took it off when she sat down and left it off when she joined Trump onstage at the end.

I could easily believe that she was the first of them to show symptoms and knew that she was positive on Tuesday, but was told/decided to lose the mask for appearance's sake at the debate. They may claim that Melania tested positive on Tuesday but Donald did not until Wednesday. And who knows? That may even be true, to some degree.

But if someone ends up needing to be thrown under the bus for reckless endangerment, "let them blame HER, not ME" would be extremely on-point for the Donald Trump brand.
posted by delfin at 9:55 AM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

The thing that gets me, more than anything, is the lying with no expectation of being believed. I think you could make a reasonable argument that all politicians lie, to some degree; certainly all of them are trying to spin the truth in their favor - but that's because there's something they care that you believe. Lying to your face, with a smirk, is something different, and much scarier: it's a power move, a kick in the teeth, proof they can say whatever they want without consequences.

I remember sitting in a hotel room in Washington DC on the evening of the Women's March, on the day after the Inauguration, and watching Sean Spicer lie through his teeth about the relative size of the crowds. I knew how big the crowd was; I'd seen it with my own eyes; all the reporters in the room had seen it, too...there was no point in lying, but he lied. Not to convince us, but just to show that he could.

The doctor in that press briefing wore that same smirk. "The President isn't on oxygen...now." But has he been on oxygen? "He's not on oxygen now." Shoving the bullshit down our throats. During the Sean Spicer conference, none of the reporters spoke up - I think they were too shocked to rally much of a defense. The reporters in the conference today did a much better job of speaking up, and the news media is treating these lies like the scandal they are. That's the only thing that gives me hope.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 9:55 AM on October 3, 2020 [51 favorites]

I can't remember if the Bush twins ever lived in the White House, but they're right around my age and would have been of majority, or close to it, by the time Dubya assumed office.

But with W, it seemed at least that his wife and daughters, you know actually love him, and he them. Donald, as far as I can tell, loves nobody, and except for some weird misguided transactional performances, none of his family seem to love him either.
posted by tclark at 9:56 AM on October 3, 2020 [18 favorites]

well, just about everything this year has been very late-soviet-union stuff
posted by pyramid termite at 9:57 AM on October 3, 2020 [25 favorites]

He also did some beating around the bush about whether Trump had been on oxygen at any point.

Yeah, he was so cagey about this I think we can almost figure out what was going in.

He said:

He is hopeful the president will not need to go on oxygen in the future (a statement that asserts no factual information)
The president is not on oxygen now. (Meaningless because he could just mean at that exact moment. He also said the president was "slightly overweight", so he's apparently not opposed to excessively stretching the truth)
The president was not on oxygen on Thursday or Friday. (today is Saturday)

posted by zixyer at 9:57 AM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

The health reports are concerning for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is what happens if the man dies w/r/t the election. We already knew it was going to be a shit-show; his death would ramp that up to 11.
posted by tzikeh at 9:59 AM on October 3, 2020

George Conway retweet, jelani cobb @jelani9: Asked why they refuse to mention Herman Cain’s death they fall back on the reflex answer “He should’ve stopped resisting the police.”

George Conway retweet, David Axelrod@davidaxelrod, 3h ago: When the @POTUS wants to present a skewed picture of the virus and what it requires, he sends out Dr. Atlas, who has no background in public health or epidemiology, to parrot the party line. When the POTUS requires treatment, he seeks out experts who know what they’re doing.

Axelrod tweet, 16 minutes ago: The stunning conclusion from the briefing today is that the @POTUS knew he had COVID-19 at least 3 days ago, did not disclose it, went to events and risked infecting others. They thought they could hide this until the media outed Hope Hicks and the POTUS developed symptoms.

D. Axelrod's been around this block so many times, it's kinda stunning that he's stunned.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:00 AM on October 3, 2020 [35 favorites]

Also the kid is 14 - by that point I was selling weed, working under the table, and hitchhiking across state lines.

Ah yes, exactly the activities I associate with being fine.
posted by medusa at 10:02 AM on October 3, 2020 [48 favorites]

The 'on background' info almost certainly came from Mark Meadows, who was caught on camera—just after the press conference and just before the anonymous statement was reported—asking to be quoted off the record. They want to preserve the option of later ridiculing this information as 'fake news' when the President starts to improve and avoid having the visuals of this news coming from his doctors.
posted by theory at 10:02 AM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

guys guys I have a brilliant idea -- they can use convelescent plasma it's a miracle cure
posted by benzenedream at 10:04 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

Now Dr. Conley is saying that the president wasn't on oxygen while he was with his team, so I'm taking that to mean all his statements about oxygen only apply to while he was under Conley's care, not after he was taken to Walter Reed.
posted by zixyer at 10:08 AM on October 3, 2020

For the commenter who wanted better statistics on risk/death in Trump's age range and health range:

CDC data shows that about 64.7% of Covid-19 patients with underlying health conditions in Trump’s age group have required hospitalization, and 31.7% have died.

Link goes to a tweet that is summarizing this NYTimes article.
posted by tzikeh at 10:09 AM on October 3, 2020 [12 favorites]

I'd like to note that the response of apparently several people here to others sharing direct personal experience with or cited references about the compassionate use exemption system, and why its application in this case is not as simple as "it's for the president so it's okay," and how this points to multiple medical professionals having made an assessment that Trump's case is already really, life-threateningly serious, is to repeat demonstrably false suppositions and to deny that expertise is applicable.
posted by biogeo at 10:11 AM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

I can't remember if the Bush twins ever lived in the White House, but they're right around my age and would have been of majority, or close to it, by the time Dubya assumed office.

To me the difference is that Trump's family is openly transactional - there's no pretense that he married for love and companionship or that he cares about all his children equally. Americans are perfectly happy with the idea that Trump just hires and then discards women whose faces are their fortunes*, that unsatisfactory children get pushed to the side, the the most beautiful girl is the favorite girl.

I'm not saying that an apparently-happy family is a happy family, or that having a happy family means you're a good person, or that you need a happy family to be a happy person or that we should elect people based on being successfully partnered. But I think it's significant that there is so much admiration for this man whose family life is so extremely public and so extremely sordid. The vileness of Trump's family life is actually part of his brand and I find that both a bad thing and a bad sign for mainstream American culture.

*If he married socialites with their own money and connections, he couldn't treat them so badly - it seems silly to say "oh poor Ivanka, poor Marla, poor Melania", but if he'd married, eg, a Bush, she'd have her own money and people to stand up for her and he wouldn't be fucking around openly or fighting her and ripping her hair out.
posted by Frowner at 10:13 AM on October 3, 2020 [33 favorites]

Dr. Conley's statements are maddeningly opaque. He's like some kind of bridge troll that has be tricked into giving useful information.
posted by Kevin Street at 10:16 AM on October 3, 2020 [60 favorites]

Melania’s chief of staff recently reported that she’s doing well, resting, and in constant contact with her husband. I refuse to believe the constant contact part.

She is probably doing cartwheels and just being her bestest knowing that Trump could die any moment. It's hard to imagine a better scenario for her.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:19 AM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

Conley's in a tough spot, he's surely bound by medical ethics laws and rules, but at the same time he's serving president lies-on-tap. I would bet he's both legally bound to tell the truth, and at the same time prohibited from telling the truth. Being both truthful and lying at the same time can't be an easy needle to thread.
posted by mrgoat at 10:23 AM on October 3, 2020 [10 favorites]

Honest question: I’m not sure I understand the focus on oxygen. I’ve gotten oxygen every time I’ve been admitted to a hospital or under observation. I’ve had it at home and in clinical settings when I’ve been even a little below normal levels. It’s pretty common, in my understanding.

Is the president being on oxygen really a huge deal? Why would they be so squirrelly about that particular thing?
posted by mochapickle at 10:24 AM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

I'm loathe to even speculate on Barron, because unlike his mother he didn't sign up for this shit, and unlike his older siblings, he hasn't hit the age of consent and willing re-upped.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:26 AM on October 3, 2020 [35 favorites]

Oxygen is help. Needing oxygen is needing help. Needing oxygen is any indication of doing something other than grinning stoicly through a bad cold.

In a normal world the use of oxygen would be acknowledged and explained as a normal thing, even if that was a bit of spin itself.
posted by cortex at 10:26 AM on October 3, 2020 [21 favorites]

“Am I going out like Stan Chera? Am I?”

"We'll see what happens."
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:27 AM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

Mrs. Trump co-signed those allegedly fraudulent tax returns, so there are a couple of better scenarios.

Can't find the article from yesterday. There was something about fever being common in the course of COVID-19 infection, but that patients usually enter the hospital without one? Since he was administered drugs prior to admission, that treatment (starting however early last week) could have affected his temperature.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:29 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

I present a Twitter exchange which I have abridged slightly:

@TheHoarseWhisperer: "A group of people ignore a beloved woman’s dying wish and rush to take advantage of her death. They hold an event to announce their corrupt plan...and then one by one they start falling ill. Gotta admit, it’s all very Stephen King."

@StephenKing: "Have to admit it sounds like one of mine. Except there should be tentacles."

posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:30 AM on October 3, 2020 [155 favorites]

Of course Barron doesn't love his dad, he's 14 and that's certainly enough to know that you're not wanted.

While he may know that, love is complicated and even unloved children tend to love their parents, a source of inner pain and conflict that keeps many a therapist employed.

Is the president being on oxygen really a huge deal?

He abhors any appearance of weakness, and knows his fans depend on him to seem invulnerable.
posted by Miko at 10:32 AM on October 3, 2020 [17 favorites]

I'm not saying that an apparently-happy family is a happy family, or that having a happy family means you're a good person....

nature boy (bowie rendition): "The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return"
posted by 20 year lurk at 10:33 AM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

mochapickle: I’ve gotten oxygen every time I’ve been admitted to a hospital or under observation.

In my highly unscientific poll of friends and family on this morning's Zoom social calls, that makes you an extraordinary outlier, not the standard.

Is the president being on oxygen really a huge deal? Why would they be so squirrelly about that particular thing?

If you can't breathe properly and healthfully on your own, that's not a good sign.

p.s. mocha if you ever need a sock here, "Oxygen Georg" is a pretty good one.
posted by tzikeh at 10:34 AM on October 3, 2020 [19 favorites]

exactly the activities I associate with being fine.

The point was AFAICT he's not doing anything like that and is probably more "ok" in several senses than many of us were at that age, what with all the money and attention, but this is turning into a bit of a derail.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:35 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

Pence is doing an in person rally on Thursday. Anyone who thought it would teach them anything, well, can I interest you in a Senate seat in Maine?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:35 AM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

In last week's TWiV podcast (episode 667), Daniel Griffin talked about a patient who needed oxygen five days after getting sick. He said it was a bad sign to bed often so early since usually covid-19 gets bad in the second week.
posted by carolr at 10:39 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

I think a better question is what his chest xrays (or other imaging) look likes like basically does the President have pneumonia at this point? If so in one lung, or both?
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:39 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

@StephenKing: "Have to admit it sounds like one of mine. Except there should be tentacles."

What if the real tentacles were all the wretched, swamp-dwelling cretins you made along the way?
posted by phunniemee at 10:39 AM on October 3, 2020 [40 favorites]

Here in Iowa, the Trump campaign is continuing as before, having lots of indoor, mask-optional events filled with elderly Trump supporters. They're a death cult. I truly don't understand it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:43 AM on October 3, 2020 [34 favorites]

Maybe the chest x-ray shows tentacles.
posted by notoriety public at 10:46 AM on October 3, 2020 [23 favorites]

A reply to Jane Mayer re: quorum for SC hearings from a law professor:

That's right. SJC currently has no quorum to report out a nominee (tho can do other things). Sen. Lee and/or Tillis would have to break their quarantine before the CDC-instructed 14 days to make the Oct. 12 hearing. Their positive tests were just yesterday (Oct. 2).
posted by bluesky43 at 10:47 AM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

Anyone else who believes that his staff is now posting on Twitter on his behalf? Dude is on oxygen and suddenly he's ... grateful?

Doctors, Nurses and ALL at the GREAT Walter Reed Medical Center, and others from likewise incredible institutions who have joined them, are AMAZING!!!Tremendous progress has been made over the last 6 months in fighting this PLAGUE. With their help, I am feeling well!

That's too out of character for Trump.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:49 AM on October 3, 2020 [33 favorites]

Sen. Lee and/or Tillis would have to break their quarantine before the CDC-instructed 14 days to make the Oct. 12 hearing.

Are they required to be present in-person, or will a live video presence be allowable to make a quorum?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:51 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

Doesn't Dan Scavino tweet for Trump sometimes and people have done analysis as to which tweets are whose?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:51 AM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

Foci for Analysis: Anyone else who believes that his staff is now posting on Twitter on his behalf?.... "likewise incredible institutions"

That's the giveaway. He has never shown the aptitude to structure phrases this way.
posted by tzikeh at 10:51 AM on October 3, 2020 [26 favorites]

My understanding is that they have to be there in person, and they would need to be there in person in order to authorize a change to that policy. It looks like their current plan is to end quarantine early, which is right on brand but also extremely optimistic about the course of the disease. Ten days out, they could be very sick.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:52 AM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

I try not to spend time sorting through Trump tweet construction mysteries in general but "and others from likewise incredible institutions" feels like someone accidentally forgot to codeswitch for a bit there.
posted by cortex at 10:52 AM on October 3, 2020 [27 favorites]

oh poor Ivanka, poor Marla, poor Melania

Ivana, not Ivanka. Although given how creepy he acts around his daughter, that's a hell of a Freudian slip.
posted by basalganglia at 10:52 AM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

That's right. SJC currently has no quorum to report out a nominee (tho can do other things). Sen. Lee and/or Tillis would have to break their quarantine before the CDC-instructed 14 days to make the Oct. 12 hearing. Their positive tests were just yesterday (Oct. 2).
...
Are they required to be present in-person, or will a live video presence be allowable to make a quorum?

Of course there won't be any proxy voting allowed, right? “There will be enormous constitutional questions around anything the House does if they fail to demonstrate a real quorum but plow ahead anyhow,” McConnell said during a floor speech.
posted by Preserver at 10:53 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

They're a death cult. I truly don't understand it.

But you do truly understand it, because you just spelled it out in four words. Nothing can ever be their fault, bad things only happen to Those People, or are caused by Those People. Most of them are huddled in circles right now, trying to work out how to blame Trump's infection on either Hunter Biden's occupation or Hillary Clinton's email server.
posted by delfin at 10:53 AM on October 3, 2020 [12 favorites]

Those words do have a lot of syllables, and the vocabulary is a bit large for Trump. But who the heck knows at this point. Maybe the oxygen woke up sleeping parts of his brain.
posted by Kevin Street at 10:54 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

"He's not on oxygen now."

Now, this very moment.

Now has passed. Hook 'em back up!

The FBI on May 30, 2019 published this. From Page 7 it is noted "Real conspiracies involving illegal, antidemocratic, or harmful activities by high level government officials and political elites have been exposed in the past and it has been argues that such plots have encouraged conspiracism in society." That quote references the book Real Enemies: Conspiracy Theories and Amverican Democracy, WW1 to 9/11.

So is telling the utter truth about "now" harmful enough to trigger the kind of complaint HR 1154 is trying to address? And if the "now" thing is ment to be false and misleading - what beyond posting "Surely This" on Metafilter should be the response?

I can't remember if the Bush twins ever lived in the White House

But there was the kerfuffel over one of 'em making a MP3 mix 'tape' and how that was a violation of the laws that had been signed. Was used as an example of how there are different rules for the leadership vs the rest of us.
posted by rough ashlar at 10:54 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

Weekend at Donnie's.
posted by One Thousand and One at 10:54 AM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

I believe Herman Cain is doing his tweeting.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:55 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

Well, I sure hope this is not the next Smoleńsk (see: political aftermath and conspiracy theories).
posted by romanb at 10:55 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

Clarification from WH doctor re: timeline. Spoiler alert - he misspoke.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:56 AM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

A lot of his tweets are ghostwritten. That’s not new. We just mostly see the outrageous ones that aren’t.

> That's right. SJC currently has no quorum to report out a nominee (tho can do other things). Sen. Lee and/or Tillis would have to break their quarantine before the CDC-instructed 14 days to make the Oct. 12 hearing.

Lee and Tillis are only quarantining for 10 days.
posted by churl at 10:56 AM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

Gabriel Sherman: Conversations w Republicans close to WH over last 12 hours indicate it’s been far more dire than WH has said. Before being taken to Walter Reed, Trump kept asking aides, “Am I going out like Stan Chera? Am I?” (Chera was Trump’s NYC friend who died of Covid in April)
posted by theory at 10:57 AM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

if the Dems on the committee refuse to show up, would that break quorum and meaning they couldn't go ahead?
posted by kokaku at 10:57 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

He's like some kind of bridge troll that has be tricked into giving useful information.

This administration sure does have a lot of people who don't pass the "would I fire my employee if they talked to me like that" test.
posted by ctmf at 10:59 AM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

Here in Iowa, the Trump campaign is continuing as before, having lots of indoor, mask-optional events filled with elderly Trump supporters. They're a death cult. I truly don't understand it.

I don't either. I want to know what is really going on in the heads of the people that are continuing to organize and hold these events as if nothing is wrong.
posted by wondermouse at 11:02 AM on October 3, 2020

if the Dems on the committee refuse to show up, would that break quorum and meaning they couldn't go ahead?

Unclear from my reading of the Jane Mayer twitter thread. There seem to be lots of rules with various implications. Any congressional rules experts around here?
posted by bluesky43 at 11:02 AM on October 3, 2020

Quick control-F looking for Conway. Nobody else has done it so I will:

Odds that George Conway tests positive, now that KellyAnne has? Their marriage has been a source of speculation for a loooong time (and now the messed up dynamics with their daughter are in the public eye too.) Do they share the same airspace within the family home? Did George move into the basement long ago? Are they canny lovebirds in cahoots to keep the family business alive to matter what?
posted by Sublimity at 11:04 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

if the Dems on the committee refuse to show up, would that break quorum and meaning they couldn't go ahead?

The assumption is that the Dems won’t show up and that all the Republicans will need to be present for quorum.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:04 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

theory: Before being taken to Walter Reed, Trump kept asking aides, “Am I going out like Stan Chera? Am I?” (Chera was Trump’s NYC friend who died of Covid in April)

Mother of mercy....
posted by tzikeh at 11:06 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

“There will be enormous constitutional questions around anything the House does if they fail to demonstrate a real quorum but plow ahead anyhow,” McConnell said during a floor speech.

He'll do proxy voting for Barrett, and the answer to those questions will be "IOKIYAR."
posted by tclark at 11:08 AM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

Sublimity, spouses don't always fall sick. Stephen Miller didn't catch COVID-19 from his wife, Katie, though they live together and have the same employer.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:09 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

The most poignant thing about the Trump asking, "Am I going out like Stan Chera? Am I?" is that you could imagine Pauly Walnuts saying it. OK, Tony saying it. Because that's who Trump is. And it's just another reminder of that. He shouldn't have let his ego take him this far - but of course he did. It's who he is. What he is, a walking Greek Tragedy. You couldn't write this fucking story though. Couldn't do it justice.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:12 AM on October 3, 2020 [14 favorites]

Follow-up from yesterday's "What's up with these long-time Democrats I know who are very concerned about civility & decorum & wishing the president a full & speedy recovery", it's quickly progressing to "I have been considering myself a centrist or an independent because I'm being attacked so much by both sides. I've been an ally for so long, why are you questioning me, this is divisive".

If these weren't people I knew IRL (back when knowing people IRL was a thing) I'd swear it was a textbook public-conversion presentation.
posted by CrystalDave at 11:13 AM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

GOP Seeks to Curtail Senate Work, but Not Barrett Hearings (AP News via US News & World Report, Oct. 3, 2020) Senate Republicans want to cancel legislative work until Oct. 19 as coronavirus rampages their ranks.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:14 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

All of this speculation and tea-leaf reading about the president's health because we know we can't trust the official line is very late-Soviet-Union stuff.

I really wish I had taken note of the source, but I recall hearing a radio interview with a former US intelligence analyst about four years ago — I think between election and swearing in. He had been assigned to do Kremlinology in the eighties and he was talking about how they had to work with tiny scraps of information: this minister’s speech at the party congress was moved to a different slot last minute, that colonel is standing three spots away from the party chairman on the reviewing stand when last year he was five spots away. He said he could not say how immeasurably easier it would have been to topple the USSR if Brezhnev and Chernenko and the rest were broadcasting their grievances and frustrations twenty times a day to the world on some social media-type platform.

Now Kremlinology consists of speculating which staff member are writing the tweets nominally coming from the president*.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:18 AM on October 3, 2020 [27 favorites]

Stella Immanuel, the "demon sperm" doctor is apparently unhappy about the treatment he's getting.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:21 AM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

GOP Seeks to Curtail Senate Work, but Not Barrett Hearings

Sounds like they’re willing to risk their lives to pack the court. Some GOP senators are already infected and contagious; others are at risk. How do they choose who are the ones to attend? As a future senator once said to a Senate subcommittee, “How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?“
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:24 AM on October 3, 2020 [10 favorites]

The most poignant thing about the Trump asking, "Am I going out like Stan Chera? Am I?" is that you could imagine Pauly Walnuts saying it. OK, Tony saying it. Because that's who Trump is.

Trump is, at best, Matt Bevilaqua.
posted by bondcliff at 11:33 AM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

I came across this on twitter: at the fund raising event, you know, the one with people paying $250,000 to eat somewhere near the plague bearing president? Buffet style.

It’s kind of astounding, or at least, it would be, but right now everything is astounding to the point that it’s just receding to a dull background roar of the unthinkable. Remember buffets? Remember them being part of all of those “oh, and here’s one more thing we’re not going to see for a long time” articles about how Covid is changing the way we do things? And, of course, by “we” I must always remember that “we” means the people who have to act as if our lives depend on avoiding not just Covid, but also the debilitating debt that comes with any kind of American hospital treatment. Certainly not the folks dropping $250k for a shitty buffet lunch with Typhoid POTUS.
posted by Ghidorah at 11:37 AM on October 3, 2020 [44 favorites]

@StephenKing: "Have to admit it sounds like one of mine. Except there should be tentacles."

I'm assuming the tentacles are waiting for the actual hearings.

"Judge Barrett, thank you for being here today. I won't keep you long, I just have a few ques- OH DEAR GOD, WHAT IS THAT!!!YAUUUGGGHHHHHHHCUTHULUF'TANGNGUUUUUGGGHHHHHHHHHHNOOOOOOOOOOIYIELDTHEBALANCEOFMYTIMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
posted by dannyboybell at 11:40 AM on October 3, 2020 [14 favorites]

So that it's here in this part of the long thread, the latest medical guidelines and terminology:

A Case, i.e. someone who has tested positive for COVID-19, should Isolate for 10 days from the onset of their symptoms or the collection date of their test sample if asymptomatic (which counts as Day 0).

A Contact of an infected person should Quarantine for 14 days from the date of their last exposure to the Case (which counts as Day 0 for that calculation), and they should get their own test 7 days after their last exposure.
posted by PhineasGage at 11:40 AM on October 3, 2020 [35 favorites]

>I want to know what is really going on in the heads

everyone implicitly considers the beliefs and opinions they hold to be internally consistent and correct.

part of the conservative world view is that non-conservatives are wrong about everything.

ergo if the "Reality-based Community" is for something, their wiring requires them to be opposed to it.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:41 AM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

Calling it here: if Trump dies, QAnon will reverse its celebrity clone theory, claiming that in this case it's the clone of Trump who died, in order that the true Trump could go underground to continue his heroic resistance to the Deep State
posted by Beardman at 11:42 AM on October 3, 2020 [10 favorites]

I came across this on twitter: at the fund raising event, you know, the one with people paying $250,000 to eat somewhere near the plague bearing president? Buffet style.

The notion that "rules only apply to them, not us"—a hallmark of conservatism—is ingrained at this point.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 11:42 AM on October 3, 2020 [19 favorites]

If they could clone functional copies of Trump, they would've unleashed hundreds of them on America years ago.

It wouldn't have been that hard, either, since each clone would only have to know how to say five or six specific phrases.
posted by delfin at 11:44 AM on October 3, 2020

A Case, i.e. someone who has tested positive for COVID-19, should Isolate for 10 days from the onset of their symptoms or the collection date of their test sample if asymptomatic (which counts as Day 0).

Why on earth does actually having the disease only mean 10 days when just waiting to see if you got it is 14? Why is it *shorter?* Why isn't it "wait until symptoms are gone or mostly gone" or anything like that? Especially with the long haulers?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:46 AM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

Because once you're showing symptoms, you're already farther along in the window of time during which you're infectious. As far as I know there's no evidence that the "long-haulers" who have post-infection symptoms remain infectious: their symptoms are caused by a long recovery from damage to organ systems incurred during the infection, not (as far as I've read) an ongoing infection.
posted by biogeo at 11:50 AM on October 3, 2020 [21 favorites]

Exposure = Wait and see if symptoms develop.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:50 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Isolate: to prevent transmitting the disease to others while you are sick.

Quarantine: to responsibly wait and see whether you are going to get sick.

If on day 12 of your quarantine, you start to exhibit symptoms, then you start to isolate for 10 days more...
posted by brambleboy at 11:52 AM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

I’ve gotten oxygen every time I’ve been admitted to a hospital or under observation.

The weight of evidence now is that routine use of oxygen therapy even (especially?) in cardiac patients is actually harmful unless the patient's blood oxygen saturation is low. Standard practice now reflects this.
posted by neuron at 11:54 AM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

It wouldn't have been that hard, either, since each clone would only have to know how to say five or six specific phrases.

I’d be entertained, in a decent-night-of-improv kind of way, by a presidential clone who could only respond to questions with, “Haul it out and let’s have a look at it,” “Quittin’ time,” “I’m not sure we have enough aardvarks,” and, “Are those all from Nebraska?”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:55 AM on October 3, 2020 [13 favorites]

Updated CDC isolation guidance suggests that most people with COVID-19 are unlikely to be infectious after ten days:

For most persons with COVID-19 illness, isolation and precautions can generally be discontinued 10 days after symptom onset and resolution of fever for at least 24 hours, without the use of fever-reducing medications, and with improvement of other symptoms.
posted by jesourie at 11:56 AM on October 3, 2020

If Trump pulls a 180 and suddenly becomes incredibly passionate and for universal health care, suffrage, solidarity with marginalized communities ... all the while using the same fervor that made him a darling among the rights, I'll be really really confused and I think this will be the perfect end of 2020.
posted by geoff. at 11:56 AM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

I won't be confused. He's malignant and must be removed.
posted by Justinian at 11:57 AM on October 3, 2020 [14 favorites]

Updated CDC isolation guidance suggests that people with COVID-19 are unlikely to be infectious after ten days:

It's a testament to how much Trump has broken everything that I don't trust the fucking CDC anymore.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:58 AM on October 3, 2020 [27 favorites]

Edit: Trump pulling a 180 is not without precedence either. He's changed his political views on some very major, party defining issues. I could not see a Dick Cheney ever changing his views but I could see Trump doing it.
posted by geoff. at 11:58 AM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

We're talking about the same CDC under fire for months now about the impartiality and accuracy of its guidance.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:59 AM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Odds that George Conway tests positive, now that KellyAnne has? Their marriage has been a source of speculation for a loooong time (and now the messed up dynamics with their daughter are in the public eye too.) Do they share the same airspace within the family home? Did George move into the basement long ago? Are they canny lovebirds in cahoots to keep the family business alive to matter what?

According to their daughter Claudia and her 🔥 TikToks the entire family is infected.

George in particular is pretty high on the risk factors.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:59 AM on October 3, 2020 [19 favorites]

I can't see a Trump about-face either; a tiny silver lining to this particular current mess is that the people taking all cues from him (including the mask avoidance) may stop putting off heading to the hospital when necessary, depending how deep into virus-hoax conspiracy territory they are.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:04 PM on October 3, 2020

Looking at todays news, it seems this second wave is worse than the first one. Like with the Spanish Flu. It also fits with my personal experience of what is going on. I've been taught to see WW1 as a big change in peoples perception, but I only heard about the flu when I was a PHD student, and never understood the implications.
Woodrow Wilson didn't have the flu (or did he?) but he failed to understand the fundamental changes in human life, and he has later been seen as a tragic person. Trump is just an idiot, but I think Biden needs to understand his historical role right now.
posted by mumimor at 12:04 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Yes, one of the biggest tragedies of the current situation is the loss of trust in the CDC. The guidelines I posted above, though, are also used by the DPH of the local health jurisdiction where I do contact tracing, which is considered one of the best in the U.S. and which even recently was rejecting CDC guidelines and sticking with our own when appropriate.
posted by PhineasGage at 12:05 PM on October 3, 2020 [39 favorites]

Yes, one of the biggest tragedies of the current situation is the loss of trust in the CDC. The guidelines I posted above, though, are also used by the DPH of the local health jurisdiction where I do contact tracing, which is considered one of the best in the U.S. and which even recently was rejecting CDC guidelines and sticking with our own when appropriate.

When I trust MeFi users more than Federal Government. Thanks for the info on that, definitely makes the information less suspect.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:07 PM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

Yeah, this is the same CDC that altered its PPE advice for healthcare workers based on the availability of supplies instead of actual science; as an RN working at the bedside I have ZERO trust in their guidance. But someone asked why it was ten days of isolation for confirmed cases vs. 14 days of quarantine for people who were in contact with confirmed cases, and this is why.

It's worth noting that healthcare workers themselves are not expected to abide by these same guidelines. I had an exposure at work that met CDC criteria back on the 19th, wasn't informed by occupational health contact tracers until the 29th, and then waited another three days for test results. All the while I was expected to continue to work unless I developed symptoms.
posted by jesourie at 12:08 PM on October 3, 2020 [49 favorites]

Thank you for your service, jesourie. I bow daily toward all you healthcare professionals, who are truly "essential workers" in this dire time.
posted by PhineasGage at 12:14 PM on October 3, 2020 [26 favorites]

It's because it takes several days to develop the antibodies (or whatever) they're testing for, so if you pop positive on the test you're already about 4 days into the time period where you're contagious.
posted by joannemerriam at 12:19 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

Antibody tests are for evidence of prior infection.

The typical covid test is a nasal swab PCR, which looks for viral DNA. As with most coronaviridae, you are contagious (shedding) before you're symptomatic.
posted by basalganglia at 12:25 PM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

Thinking about how between RBG, the taxes, and COVID-OTUS, all of the Chekhov's guns of this administration are going off in rapid succession....

We're getting the pee tape on Tuesday, aren't we.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:27 PM on October 3, 2020 [28 favorites]

Wouldn't it be great if whoever is controlling The Twitter right now just... went rogue?

I can dream.
posted by tzikeh at 12:32 PM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

He's changed his political views

He has no political views. The only thing he thinks about is what benefits himself and the few things that aren't him that he cares about.
posted by Candleman at 12:35 PM on October 3, 2020 [53 favorites]

Updated CDC isolation guidance suggests that people with COVID-19 are unlikely to be infectious after ten days

I'm assuming that means "asymptomatic people," or "10 days after any verifiable symptoms," and not that people hospitalized for COVID are safe to treat without masks and other PPE.

The claim of "I'll isolate for 10 days and be back in time to vote" presumes that they won't actually get sick during those 10 days. They don't get to isolate for 8 days, come down with fever, cough, and fatigue, and head back to work.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:39 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

I have no idea what happens to the children of vanished wealth in non-fictional 21st century America

I recall reading something about how Elizabeth Holme's family had fallen from grace (wealth) and as a child, when asked what she wanted to do when she grew up that her response was - to get rich.

Then Theranos happened.
posted by porpoise at 12:39 PM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

Auden and Humanized Mice, this is a hell of a thread!
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:46 PM on October 3, 2020 [13 favorites]

Yes, Isolation can end when two conditions are met: 10 days after onset of symptoms or from test collection date AND patient has been free of fever (without medicine) and significant symptoms for at least 24 hours.
posted by PhineasGage at 12:56 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

Interesting, I attended a seminar by the first person to make a humanized mouse, and he said the Senator Brownback of Kansas said something like "this was the most evil science experiment ever".
posted by 445supermag at 12:58 PM on October 3, 2020 [10 favorites]

I see no reason to assume that Republican legislators infected with coronavirus will comply with isolation and quarantine guidelines considering the stakes. Will the Capital Police bar them from entering? I feel that is unlikely.
posted by glonous keming at 1:04 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

...the fund raising event, you know, the one with people paying $250,000 to eat somewhere near the plague bearing president? Buffet style.

To be fair, McDonald’s burger prices have gone up.
posted by cenoxo at 1:05 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

Pulmonary critical care doctor’s analysis of the public info re: The President. TL;DW — The shortness of breath is as red flag.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:05 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Wouldn't it be great if whoever is controlling The Twitter right now just... went rogue?

If they had a sense of humor they’d just post “Covfefe”.
posted by meinvt at 1:06 PM on October 3, 2020 [20 favorites]

This is just to spray

I have infected
the Trump
that was in
the White House

with germs
he was probably
spreading
at debate

Forgive me
He was maskless
so dense
and so old
posted by benzenedream at 1:06 PM on October 3, 2020 [103 favorites]

He is hopeful the president will not need to go on oxygen in the future (a statement that asserts no factual information)
The president is not on oxygen now. (Meaningless because he could just mean at that exact moment. He also said the president was "slightly overweight", so he's apparently not opposed to excessively stretching the truth)
The president was not on oxygen on Thursday or Friday. (today is Saturday)

News conference or LSAT practice: 2020 edition
posted by corb at 1:07 PM on October 3, 2020 [17 favorites]

And the election will be stolen, one way or the other, as expected: Nearly 2,000 DOJ Alumni Sign Letter with Dire Warning: Bill Barr Is Working to Rig 2020 Election for Trump
posted by tzikeh at 1:08 PM on October 3, 2020 [13 favorites]

Friendly reminder this isn't a catch-all thread, it's just about Trump having covid. There are a couple of other open threads on election theft/voter suppression etc: thread 1 and thread 2
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:17 PM on October 3, 2020 [13 favorites]

The president was not on oxygen on Thursday or Friday.

Man, if you really want to run that through the logic filter, it doesn’t even mean he wasn’t on oxygen Thursday and Friday. The statement can be true and consistent with the statement “the President was on oxygen Thursday and Friday.” Both statements could be true if there were times he was on oxygen, and times he was not on oxygen, during the 24 hours of each day (if he spent 23 hours on oxygen, and one hour not, it’s true that he was not on oxygen on Thursday [for a specific timeframe]. The only way to rule that out would be to add a qualifier like “at any time on Thursday and Friday.”

I mean it’s ridiculous but this crew would try it.
posted by Miko at 1:19 PM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

If enough R senators become infected, and unable to work, can we take the senate? Like, 2 more and we have a majority, right? Immediately pass senate rules about quarantine and masks, and we can hold it past the election, I bet.
I mean, elections have consequences...but so does not wearing a mask.
posted by sexyrobot at 1:20 PM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

Man, if you really want to run that through the logic filter, it doesn’t even mean he wasn’t on oxygen Thursday and Friday. The statement can be true and consistent with the statement “the President was on oxygen Thursday and Friday.” Both statements could be true if there were times he was on oxygen, and times he was not on oxygen, during the 24 hours of each day (if he spent 23 hours on oxygen, and one hour not, it’s true that he was not on oxygen on Thursday [for a specific timeframe]. The only way to rule that out would be to add a qualifier like “at any time on Thursday and Friday.”

Or maybe they meant the was on the Oxygen TV Network? Riddles upon riddles!
posted by Liquidwolf at 1:23 PM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

The White House has called a lid for the day -- tweet from Andrew Feinberg, 1:53PM, 10/3/2020

They called a lid in the middle of the day during a national crisis.

I know better than to jump to any conclusions without all the facts, but that's a pretty big fucking fact.
posted by tzikeh at 1:32 PM on October 3, 2020 [16 favorites]

What is "a lid"?
posted by Mitheral at 1:35 PM on October 3, 2020 [12 favorites]

When I supposed Donald Trump just might kill off the Republican party, I didn't imagine it to be so literal.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:36 PM on October 3, 2020 [46 favorites]

The president was not on oxygen on Thursday or Friday.

Not according to the AP.

Be vigilant about what Trump's people tell the press to tell you. They are inveterate liars, to a fault.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:37 PM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

Closing up for the day = putting the lid on it. Basically saying: nothing more to see here today.
posted by wabbittwax at 1:38 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

Mitheral: What is "a lid"?

A full lid is when the Press Room is shut down for the day. No more questions, no more statements.

(I apologize - I assume everyone is a West Wing fanatic. I should have clarified.)
posted by tzikeh at 1:38 PM on October 3, 2020 [21 favorites]

lid
posted by WeekendJen at 1:38 PM on October 3, 2020

Or, per Twitter, the White House is a petri dish.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:39 PM on October 3, 2020 [15 favorites]

If they had a sense of humor they’d just post “Covfefe”.

Cough-fefe, surely.
posted by hanov3r at 1:46 PM on October 3, 2020 [15 favorites]

Coughfever
posted by zutphen at 1:47 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Covid-fefe
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:47 PM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

Maciej Cegłowski weighs in on kremlinology:

Just a word of advice from an Eastern European. The medical news always gets rosier and rosier. Always count the doctors. They're not there to hold the healthy Great Leader back from bolting out of the hospital to do the people's work

posted by acb at 1:49 PM on October 3, 2020 [72 favorites]

Covid-jefe
posted by biscotti at 1:49 PM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

Inside Walter Reed: The 'Nation's Medical Center' where Trump will be treated for coronavirus in a secure 'Presidential Suite' [with photos], Daily Mail, Natalie Rahhal, 10/2/2020. Except for modern medical equipment, the suite decor looks like the 1960s, and “The dining room in the suite is even lit by a crystal chandelier, meaning Trump can be treated to the luxuries he's become accustomed to”.
posted by cenoxo at 1:50 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Either that furniture goes or I do.
posted by mochapickle at 1:53 PM on October 3, 2020 [22 favorites]

What the heck kind of a hospital room has carpeting?
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:54 PM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

What is a lid ? His 'hair,' for one. And, incidentally,

You cannot body double that fucking hair.

Oh for chrissake, first of all, anything more than 30% filaments soaked in resin is not legally hair anyway but all the same, that lacquered sculpture can be all too copied and probably comes in too far a number of versions as it is. If indeed these lids are not mind controlling alien parasites as in The Lids of Donald Trump coming soon to a drive-in near you.
posted by y2karl at 1:57 PM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

The carpeting in that suite does seem like it would make sanitizing the area difficult. I hope his doctors have better than usual PPE.
posted by mrgoat at 1:59 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

I love you all but considering the significance and dynamism of the situation can we please remember the old megathread guidelines and try to keep quips and joke workshopping to a minimum? 🧡💛💚
posted by glonous keming at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2020 [51 favorites]

In fairness though, this isn't a megathread, it's a Trump has Covid thread, so there's bound to be an undercurrent of schadenfreude and glee.
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:06 PM on October 3, 2020 [15 favorites]

I read elsewhere that those pictures are from 2011 at the old Water Reede, and that the new Presidential floor is different.
posted by Miko at 2:09 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

The carpeting in that suite does seem like it would make sanitizing the area difficult.

It's not hard to sanitize carpet if you don't care whether it's dry. Standing in half of inch of bleach seems pretty safe to me.
posted by fatbird at 2:15 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

What Happens If Trump Is ‘Unable’ to Govern

A crash course in the 25th Amendment, from someone who was in the Justice Department when Reagan was shot. [Bloomberg News]
posted by tzikeh at 2:16 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Gotta wonder if Pence is shitting his pants right now
posted by tzikeh at 2:17 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

"Melania was sick, too. And the president is highly contagious — if you look closely at the footage of his departure, the helicopter pilot is in head to toe PPE."

The pilot wore his Marine uniform and a mask, not head to toe PPE.

https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/6724496_100220-cc-ap-trump-walter-reed-arrival-img.jpg?w=1600
posted by jonathanhughes at 2:19 PM on October 3, 2020 [18 favorites]

Pence is probably praying for Trump on the outside, but secretly beaming with joy on the inside. This is exactly the opportunity he's been waiting for.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:22 PM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

The pilot wore his Marine uniform and a mask, not head to toe PPE.

Their Marine uniform?

I know they are Marine Aviators, and VERY concentrated on the job of getting the president they are sworn to protect out of the helicopter, etc., but don't they look like they are scowling?

Or was it Navy Aviators?
posted by Snowishberlin at 2:30 PM on October 3, 2020

jonathanhughes, you’re absolutely right. I saw it from another angle and I regret the error. And thank you!
posted by mochapickle at 2:30 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

I would be guessing that Biden’s team has been researching lines of attack against Pence since Thursday. Remember that Pence was on the coronavirus task force which was pretty much ineffective. Whatever the case, I suspect they are not going to invoke the 25th Amendment unless Trump is in really bad shape and unable to communicate. If they were to invoke it against his wishes, there would be a backlash from their base.

We’re in some pretty crazy waters here. My hope - although campaign events that are being held today are not exactly encouraging - is that this encourages more people to wear masks. This can happen to anyone if caution isn’t taken.
posted by azpenguin at 2:33 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

"Or was it Navy Aviators?"

I can't tell if this is some weird reference or a joke that I'm missing, but I assume that since the helicopter is called "Marine One" that the pilots are Marines. Right?
posted by jonathanhughes at 2:37 PM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

In olden times a lid was a marijuana cigarette. I'm guessing they are begging for a joint.
posted by allthinky at 2:38 PM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

Oh yeah, they're not going to invoke the 25th Amendment unless it's absolutely necessary. If they did it and Trump came back again he'd purge everyone that took control away from him. But Pence is a man of faith.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:40 PM on October 3, 2020

“But Pence is a man of faith“ has such an echo of “But Brutus is an honorable man” about it.
posted by wabbittwax at 2:49 PM on October 3, 2020 [24 favorites]

In olden times a lid was a marijuana cigarette. I'm guessing they are begging for a joint.

That would be a big joint. A lid was about an ounce of weed, the amount that would fit in the lid of a tobacco can.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:54 PM on October 3, 2020 [27 favorites]

Mike Pence is no Marcus Brutus. Brutus betrayed Caesar, a friend and father-figure, out of a greater sense of loyalty to the ideals of the Roman Republic. Mike Pence betrayed his oath of office and the highest tenets of his faith out of a greater desire for power to impose his will on his fellow Americans. Brutus's story is a sad tragedy. Pence's is a bad joke.
posted by biogeo at 2:55 PM on October 3, 2020 [22 favorites]

since the helicopter is called "Marine One" that the pilots are Marines. Right?

Dunno the specifics here but the Navy is the branch of the US military which has its own Army (the Marine Corps) as well as its own Air Force.

the lid of a tobacco can

Lid of a shoebox is how I always heard it.
posted by Rash at 2:56 PM on October 3, 2020

I wonder if Trump will get the same kind of turnout for his caisson trip down Pennsylvania Ave. that he did for his inauguration parade?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:57 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

Same as Roy Cohn, people will go to his funeral “just to make sure the bastard’s dead.”
posted by wabbittwax at 3:00 PM on October 3, 2020 [22 favorites]

The opposite of love isn't hate. It's apathy.

I think you know what I'll be doing to mark his death should it occur.
posted by ocschwar at 3:03 PM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

Roy Cohn died in Bethesda, Maryland, of a disease he had disavowed.
posted by mochapickle at 3:04 PM on October 3, 2020 [15 favorites]

Chris Christie has been hospitalized.
posted by FallibleHuman at 3:06 PM on October 3, 2020 [16 favorites]

I wonder if Trump will get the same kind of turnout for his caisson trip down Pennsylvania Ave. that he did for his inauguration parade?

To quote an old joke about a much-hated Hollywood mogul's funeral: "See? If you give people what they want, they will come out."
posted by Paul Slade at 3:09 PM on October 3, 2020 [17 favorites]

(Note: I may have gotten my anecdotes mixed up, and confused Roy Cohn with Harry Cohn, but looking into it, it seems that nobody is sure where that line about going to a funeral to make sure they’re dead actually came from ... anyway, /derail)
posted by wabbittwax at 3:10 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Were any members of SCOTUS at the Cony-Barrett announcement?
posted by Thorzdad at 3:11 PM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

FallibleHuman: Chris Christie has been hospitalized.

To be clear, Chris Christie hospitalized himself as a precautionary measure.

What fuckin' privilege. The news outlets are reporting it as "checked himself in" like it's the fucking Plaza.
posted by tzikeh at 3:13 PM on October 3, 2020 [40 favorites]

Also, according to Roger Stone, Roy Cohn’s longtime goal was to die broke, owing millions to the IRS.
posted by mochapickle at 3:13 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

...14 people in the president's orbit have reported positive diagnoses since Friday—more than the number of newly reported cases in the last 24 hours in Belgium, New Zealand, Singapore, Sweden, Taiwan, Thailand or Vietnam, according to the World Health Organization (WHO). [...] Other countries, including Afghanistan, Bhutan, Cambodia, Chad, Congo, El Salvador, Fiji, Ghana, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Mali, Mongolia, Nicaragua, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Turkmenistan and Yemen have reported under 14 cases in the past 24 hours as well. [...]

The U.S. has reported more than 7.2 million positive coronavirus cases since the pandemic began earlier this year, more than any other country in the world. -- Trump's Orbit Now Has More New COVID Cases Than Numerous Countries, Newsweek, Oct. 3, 2020
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:14 PM on October 3, 2020 [20 favorites]

In olden times a lid was a marijuana cigarette. I'm guessing they are begging for a joint.

I respectfully disagree. A lid is an ounce.

SNL: American Dope Growers Union

Dope Grower: “Soooo look for, the Union label…”

A group of other dope growers slowly surround her and join in the chorus.

Group:
“when you are buying your joint, lid, or pound
Remember somewhere, our Union’s growing
you’ll be smoking, at the best price around

posted by mikelieman at 3:16 PM on October 3, 2020 [10 favorites]

Cheech and Chong covered the question of "how many joints are in a lid?" in 1972.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:18 PM on October 3, 2020 [12 favorites]

The day of his positive results, Chris Christie also gets precautionary hospital admission and has already been started on remdesivir as well. Quite a difference between the have and have nots, when everyone else in America gets told to ride it out at home until they feel they’re at the point of imminent death.
posted by blue suede stockings at 3:19 PM on October 3, 2020 [80 favorites]

From yesterday morning's emergency Gaslit Nation episode (currently accessible if you're a $5 & up patreon supporter), quick partial excerpt:
Andrea Chalupa: 2:30ish, "Do not binge-watch the demise of your democracy, do not treat this like your favorite Netflix series. Make phone calls, text, postcards, all of it, I'm doing it this weekend. If Trump should die & Pence is President . . . you're still gonna have Ivanka and Jared as de facto President of the United States."
Kendzior: 4:30 "We've always said, the crisis we're going through is not just about Trump. It is a transnational crime syndicate masquerading as a government, and that doesn't magically go away if Trump loses an election and Biden comes in, it doesn't magically go away if Trump dies of COVID. . . . Jared and Ivanka and others in the administration have been building the policies . . . [Their] alliances with autocrats will continue unabated."
Chalupa: 11:30 "Everyone has to stay grounded in the Gaslit Nation 2020 Survival Guide, because if you let the news cycle knock you around, that's how they win. They create a lot of scandal to demoralize and disable us . . . The voters aren't being called. It's gonna come down to turnout. If people see how Trump is failing, they're gonna just assume the election's in the bag. They're not gonna understand that it's not unless they get a phone call from you, a text message from you, or a postcard from you saying 'Get your tuchus to the polls, or make sure you have your ballot in and it's all filled out correctly' . . . My big concern is that people are gonna just stop doing the work thinking that Trump's gonna die. "
Kendzior: 12:30 "Americans are gonna be inclined to binge-watch the Apocalypse, watching constant updates about Trump's health and trying to decipher all these rumors."
14:00ish, "Whether Trump has a fever, it's not something we can control. It puts us in a passive position where we're just spectators. We should be active participants. Go to the Gaslit Nation Action Guide, mobilize voters, don't take anything for granted."
20:30 Chalupa on taking action re Amy Coney Barrett: "Call your senators, flood their phones, tell them to get creative [like lawyers for death row prisoners] & throw every single delay they can imagine to slow down procedure. . . . Tell them to put a call out for all the creative lawyers in this country, we need a brain trust on how to slow this down. Call your senator, then call Schumer, then call Dick Durbin & demand they try every single thing possible to delay delay delay."

Now I'm logging out of metafilter and taking Andrea's advice to make calls/texts/postcards IRL for a few hours. Being an active participant in creating a new world vs being a horror-show spectator: yes I needed to hear that, typing it out here helped break my binge-watching brain-trance, maybe someone else might find it useful.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 3:24 PM on October 3, 2020 [76 favorites]

Chris Christie has tested positive for COVID-19 and gone to a hospital as a precaution. Thankfully traffic wasn’t a problem
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:26 PM on October 3, 2020 [36 favorites]

SNL season premiere tonight! If they all are drunk I won’t blame them.
posted by Melismata at 3:26 PM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

NY Magazine: The White House Is Spreading Virus and Lies. Asked what it’s been like for insiders trying to get information about the president and the virus spreading through the government, a senior White House official told New York, “That’s easy. We don’t get any.”
posted by jocelmeow at 3:30 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

That NY Magazine headline is 7 months old.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:31 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

Under Section 4 of the 25th Amendment it’s vital for the Vice President and fifteen Cabinet members to have knowledge of the President’s present health condition so they can judge whether he’s competent to serve. Do they have that knowledge?
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:34 PM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

Your Childhood Pet Rock: That NY Magazine headline is 7 months old.

URL says 2020/10 and the second sentence begins "With President Trump hospitalized for COVID-19 at Walter Reed medical center" - what are you seeing?
posted by tzikeh at 3:35 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

A White House that has been spreading virus and lies for 7 months.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:37 PM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

Axios: Covering a cover-up in real time. The bottom line: Multiple sources in the White House and on the campaign have reached out since Meadows' statement, and said they're utterly perplexed about what's going on. They, like us, have little confidence in what they are being told.
posted by jocelmeow at 3:42 PM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

Melania’s chief of staff recently reported that she’s doing well, resting, and in constant contact with her husband. I refuse to believe the constant contact part.

I have no doubt that Donnie is on Melania's Constant Contact list and is receiving the same email blasts everyone else on the list is getting.
posted by wierdo at 3:47 PM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

Is someone confusing 3/10/2020 (European notation) for 10/3/2020 (U.S. notation)?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:47 PM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

Jesus Christ I'm not talking about the literal date I'm talking about how the White House hasn't not been a source of virus and lies over the past 7 months.

Thank you for making me explain and subsequently ruin what I thought was biting wit.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:51 PM on October 3, 2020 [17 favorites]

CNN: Advisers made last-minute push to get reluctant Trump to Walter Reed.
Marine One was idling on the South Lawn Friday as President Donald Trump's advisers were inside the White House making a last-minute push to get him to board the helicopter.

The President, who had recently tested positive for coronavirus, was reluctant to go to the hospital, multiple sources familiar with what happened later told CNN. Though Trump had developed symptoms and was now on experimental drugs, he didn't want to be "hospitalized," he said.

posted by jocelmeow at 3:53 PM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

Another stolen joke:

Walter Reed is reporting that the President is in hypocritical condition.
posted by clawsoon at 3:56 PM on October 3, 2020 [47 favorites]

New Trump video announcement from Walter Reed. It is long and rambling, he still seems to resist the notion that anything he did cause this. But more importantly, what's with that oval office like setting in Walter Reed? I guess thinking on it, it isn't that surprising but I want a behind the scenes on this.
posted by geoff. at 3:57 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Apparently I'm the only one that wanted to see the Walter Reed Presidential Suite. It has a weird retirement home vibe. The White House decor looks dated. I think the inside out building in London has a similar weird 19th century boardroom inside an ultra-modern modern, brutalist building.
posted by geoff. at 4:00 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

That little spat about "literal dates" and "biting wit" has made me laugh in a way i haven't for ages... thank you metafilter!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 4:04 PM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

The bottom line: Multiple sources in the White House and on the campaign have reached out since Meadows' statement, and said they're utterly perplexed about what's going on. They, like us, have little confidence in what they are being told.

Have they tried asking the question in Russian?
posted by delfin at 4:04 PM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

To me, he talks like someone who has COPD.
posted by Quonab at 4:05 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

But more importantly, what's with that oval office like setting in Walter Reed? I guess thinking on it, it isn't that surprising but I want a behind the scenes on this.

You mean a suite intended for the holder of the highest office in the land might have an area setup to continue the work that holder of the highest office in the land might still be doing? Like I get that people are pissed that Trump is getting special treatment because he's a complete fucking buffoon but under normal circumstances with a president that actually gives a shit, having a place for said president to keep having meetings with an almost continual stream of people would be a necessity.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:06 PM on October 3, 2020 [24 favorites]

(Not that I think he does, but the breathing pattern is similar).
posted by Quonab at 4:06 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

having a place for said president to keep having meetings with an almost continual stream of people would be a necessity.

I am in no one way surprised in the least that a world leader or even a private citizen would have a suite where they could continue to conduct business. The wood and cloth aesthetic is what seemed off to me. I would've expected something more bland and modern.
posted by geoff. at 4:10 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

I can’t help but wonder when this clip was actually recorded—immediately on arrival, or (actually) this evening?
posted by blue suede stockings at 4:13 PM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

MetaFilter: Thank you for making me explain and subsequently ruin what I thought was biting wit
posted by mazola at 4:13 PM on October 3, 2020 [55 favorites]

But was he wearing pajamas?
posted by MtDewd at 4:13 PM on October 3, 2020

Also, people were wondering the president's temperature or heartbeat. There was just a research paper that came out that uses blood flow to the face to detect deepfakes. Since this works on the principal of PPG (photoplethysmography) or basically the heart beat, you could conceivably use it to figure out what his heartrate is and use other deepfake detection software to determine temperature. It wouldn't be that hard but since there's not a github repo I can just pull down and run it is beyond my interest in doing so.
posted by geoff. at 4:16 PM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

Actually looks like there's a github page right here. Surprised CNN and the rest aren't running it.
posted by geoff. at 4:18 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

The wood and cloth aesthetic is what seemed off to me. I would've expected something more bland and modern.

IIRC the government furniture all comes from a huge government catalog that you have to pick from. It’s all under contract from formally contracted sources, so it’s not like you can just hop over to Design Within Reach and order the showroom. There are channels.

I worked at a navy facility in pennsylvania in the early oughts and the regional legal counsel, who had the second fanciest office there (chambers and anterooms!), was proudly showing off his newly redone office. Like this set of rooms at Walter Reed, it was cherrywood veneer and stodgy Federalist style and gilded eagles out the wazoo. Plus burgundy carpet! It’s hideous but I think that’s sort of the regional standard of the time.
posted by mochapickle at 4:18 PM on October 3, 2020 [12 favorites]

Miko > I read elsewhere that those pictures are from 2011 at the old Water Reede, and that the new Presidential floor is different.

After further research, you’re right.

One of the photo captions in the Daily Mail article states “The living room is seen in these photos of the suite from 2007.” These old photos are also shown in another article, Inside the former Walter Reed Army Medical Center VIP treatment ward, The Californian, 10/3/2020.

Per WP, the original “Walter Reed Army Medical Center” hospital in Washington, DC was used from 1909 until 2011, when it was replaced by the new “Walter Reed National Military Medical Center“ (WRNMMC) hospital in Bethesda, Maryland (where Trump is now).

As explained in Inside Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital’s VIP treatment ward: This is what President Trump can expect, Click2Houston, 10/2/2020; the WRNMMC has an entire floor reserved for high-ranking military/government patients. Perhaps for security reasons, this article doesn’t have any photos of the VIP ward. If I find any publicly available photos, I’ll post links in a follow-up comment.
posted by cenoxo at 4:20 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

Trump’s Covid Treatments Suggest a Serious Condition (NY Times)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Ahmad Khani at 4:24 PM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

Actually looks like there's a github page right here. Surprised CNN and the rest aren't running it.

i looked at the repo and briefly entertained getting that up and running then saw that it's written in C at which point i pointedly left.
posted by lazaruslong at 4:28 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

The Medical Briefing on Trump’s Health was an Insulting Exercise in Obfuscation. (Washington Post)
posted by newdaddy at 4:29 PM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/gop-sen-ron-johnson-went-to-oktoberfest-party-after-testing-positive-for-covid-19

U.S. Senator Ron Johnson tested positive for COVID-19 on Friday. But, after finding out he had the virus, which has killed more than 220,000 Americans to date, the Wisconsin Republican still chose to attend an Oktoberfest fundraising dinner that evening.

Johnson, who didn’t reveal his diagnosis until Saturday, justified his behavior in comments to the Madison, Wisconsin Capital Times by saying he only took his mask off when it was time to address the crowd. He also insisted that he was “at least 12 feet from anybody” during his speech at the event, which was sponsored by the Ozaukee County Republican Party. It was held at the River Club of Mequon, a self-described “casually elegant private club committed to personal service.”

...

posted by sebastienbailard at 4:34 PM on October 3, 2020 [33 favorites]

NYT doesn't note the suspect misspelling and word misuse in "conley's" walk back. Nor that it is unsigned.
posted by j_curiouser at 4:41 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

Misspelling and word misuse?
posted by saturday_morning at 4:43 PM on October 3, 2020

Johnson, who didn’t reveal his diagnosis until Saturday, justified his behavior in comments to the Madison, Wisconsin Capital Times by saying he only took his mask off when it was time to address the crowd. He also insisted that he was “at least 12 feet from anybody” during his speech at the event,

This is not how viruses work of course, but showing total disregard for the health and wellbeing of one's constituents is not currently in the Republican wheelhouse.

Swerving, I think it's legit ok to run attack ads based on the idea that the current regime ignored scientists, hosted a superspreader event and put the whole executive branch of the government in mortal danger. It's true and it can be couched in all the "while we're sorry they had to get sick themselves to realize this" language needed to satisfy centrist anxiety for norms.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:45 PM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

Vanity Fair: “This is spiraling out of control”: Allies Panic About Trump's Hospital Stay as White House Deflects. On Friday, Trump grew visibly anxious as his fever spiked to 103 fahrenheit and he was administered oxygen at the White House, according to three Republicans close to the White House.
posted by jocelmeow at 4:47 PM on October 3, 2020 [20 favorites]

i looked at the repo and briefly entertained getting that up and running then saw that it's written in C at which point i pointedly left.

Throughout the video with motion tracking and and some additional chrominance adjustments from here and a couple other random git repositories I have it running against Trump's video. Mine showed a resting heart rate of 66 bpm. Trump averaged around 54 bpm. I assume he has makeup on, has studio lighting that could easily mess up my test, and probably on sedatives or something that is impacting his heart rate. I saw a couple spikes up to the mid 80s when he moved but that could be the motion tracking catching up.

I have a heart monitor and could get my accurate resting heart rate as a comparison, please hold.
posted by geoff. at 4:51 PM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

From the Vanity Fair article jocelmeow posted:

“It’s weird that all these Republicans are getting it,” a prominent Republican told me.

NO IT'S NOT, MOTHERFUCKER!
posted by heteronym at 4:56 PM on October 3, 2020 [116 favorites]

The OpenCV method is likely highly inaccurate, this one is better. If anyone thinks they can get this together quickly or wants to help out message me. I have an RFP I have to respond to that I'm delaying but I'm willing to give this a go tonight for science and if I get some recognition it would help put some ML stuff I've done out in public instead of hidden elsewhere. geoff. needs to eat!
posted by geoff. at 4:56 PM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

Ok this thread is getting weird now.
posted by bondcliff at 4:59 PM on October 3, 2020 [43 favorites]

geoff., I ran some tests on a much older version of that method for measuring pulse from video a few years ago. In my hands at least I found it to be unreliable outside of very controlled test conditions: the assumptions built into the algorithm basically force some kind of pulse-like signal to appear (or at least they did in the version at that time). I dropped it as it didn't seem useful for my research and didn't follow up any further, so maybe things have progressed with that technique, but I'd take its results with a grain of salt. But if you try it on yourself with objective pulse measurements and get a good match, that would be cool. Try measuring with at least two pulse rate conditions if you can: once after sitting quietly and once after jumping around to elevate your heart rate.
posted by biogeo at 5:03 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

Per the Oktoberfest: They are such a death cult.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:04 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

To address a debate from much much earlier in the thread, the NYT report says that the Regeneron treatment had two antibodies - one that comes from mice and one that comes from a human donor.
posted by muddgirl at 5:11 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Washington DC had 50 new cases between October 1st and 2nd. This outbreak is going to add a sizeable bump. (I updated and posted my 50 state and DC report for the prior week.)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:12 PM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

I'd really appreciate it if some mefi folk could do some analysis of the trump videos, for edits and cuts, if for nothing else (but hey, if someone determines the one from yesterday where his face looks like it's pasted onto his body is a fake, I'd wanna know that, too). These videos are being presented as primary sources for the conclusion that Trump is doing fine right now, and like all statements by this administration, they need to be examined and tested. I know how to parse his doctor's statements for weasel words and improbable walkbacks, but I don't have the skills to do that kind of analysis of video manipulation. It seems clear to me that there's at least one cut in the most recent video (editing out a cough or something, I'd imagine), but I'd appreciate more expert input on how much these videos are manipulated, and I generally trust y'all.
posted by mabelstreet at 5:13 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

Okay for comparison I used a CVS Digital Blood Pressure Monitor CVSBPAUAUTO #271245. I'm 35 yo male, 5'10" at 160 lbs. with no known medical conditions and get a 8 mile jog in a day. Anyway I'm at 95 BPM resting. The OpenCV algorithm logged me at between 48-50 BPM. Another person who is closer to Trump's age but otherwise in good health and has told me "not to put it on the Internet" clocked in resting at 99 BPM. The OpenCV software had them at 50-54 BPM. I think I'm not adjusting for the frame rate correctly.

In any case we've learned I probably need to workout more and that Trump is alive, has somewhat of an elevated heart rate, maybe perhaps assuming that the software is consistently wrong. I'm going on my jog and will try it after to get a post workout heart rate.
posted by geoff. at 5:20 PM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

95 BPM and 99 BPM resting? I think you and your friend are a little wound up!

(you're not the only ones)
posted by inexorably_forward at 5:25 PM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

This is some next level Kremlinology. Off to do more text banking ...
posted by benzenedream at 5:25 PM on October 3, 2020 [24 favorites]

"only Republicans get it" is a conspiracy theory with *legs*
posted by joeyh at 5:26 PM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

the late walk back on the "onset 72 hours ago" is in the form of a letter tweeted by kayleigh.

- says it's from conley
- conley didn't originally claim 72 hours, another MD did
- Regeneron is misspelled
- "polyclonal" is used where it's basically the direct opposite of "monoclonal". Regeneron therapy is monoclonal antibodies.
- the letter is unsigned, where all previously released comms from Conley are signed.

The implication is that Kayleigh made it up as propaganda to obscure onset on Tuesday.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:29 PM on October 3, 2020 [20 favorites]

PRESIDENT IVANKA WTF
posted by Foci for Analysis at 5:32 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

huh? what is going on in this thread.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:33 PM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

16 years of President Ivanka? I dislike this FWIW
posted by rainy at 5:34 PM on October 3, 2020

For years I've been suspecting that Trump will live to age 95, never leave office because everyone lets him stay there, declares himself emperor, and Empress Ivanka takes over after that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:35 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

I've Seen Things You Folks Wouldn't Believe
posted by tonycpsu at 5:36 PM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

Sry, Wednesday morning.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:36 PM on October 3, 2020

I see we've all pulled out the dank nugs tonight
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:37 PM on October 3, 2020 [32 favorites]

one that comes from mice and one that comes from a human donor.

That's almost certainly where the original antibodies came from, but almost certainly not how it's being manufactured.

I expect that they sequences these antibodies (well the the long and short chains of your antibody, sent that out for synthesis, put that in a cell line (I'd bet on CHO based on looking at other Regeneron products I could find data for), let them self assemble, had long meetings about glycosolation, settled on a purification scheme, analytical suite and formulation. When they were done I rather doubt any molecule touched anything that wasn't for a master cell bank that the agency blessed years ago and which has never been exposed to anything murine of human unless the guy who vialed it was bad about his technique.

Also, GlcNAc is the most fun word in biochemistry.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:41 PM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

walk back, way better than my assertions, via dkos.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:46 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

Immediately pass senate rules about quarantine and masks, and we can hold it past the election, I bet.
I mean, elections have consequences...but so does not wearing a mask

How about change the rules on Supreme Court confirmation to two thirds majority real quick?
posted by nzero at 5:54 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

U.S. Senator Ron Johnson tested positive for COVID-19 on Friday. But, after finding out he had the virus, which has killed more than 220,000 Americans to date, the Wisconsin Republican still chose to attend an Oktoberfest fundraising dinner that evening.

We need laws to prosecute people who do this.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:55 PM on October 3, 2020 [32 favorites]

I can't believe I spent four minutes of my life watching the Walter Reed video. All I can think of is six words.

Don't you think he looks tired?
posted by Ruki at 5:56 PM on October 3, 2020 [42 favorites]

We need laws to prosecute people who do this.

Yes, and I'm old enough to remember exactly who wanted those sorts of laws when it was the AIDS virus in question.
posted by Miko at 5:56 PM on October 3, 2020 [58 favorites]

That dkos breakdown is good. I also find it very fakey that a doctor would be like "I didn't mean 72 hours, I meant Day 3." I'm a civilian, but that seems to me very un-doctor-like. Who cares what calendar day it is when this illness is something we count in hours? IT's too imprecise.

Either way, man, Conley is so for sale.
posted by Miko at 5:59 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

Chris Christie makes 25.

Wait, has anyone figured out trumps R-naught yet?
OMG, he might out-infect that bride in Maine.
posted by sexyrobot at 6:08 PM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

'Man accused of trying to spread coronavirus at Michigan grocery store could face domestic terrorism charge'
posted by clavdivs at 6:08 PM on October 3, 2020 [6 favorites]

fun fact: Pence could theoretically serve 3 terms which seems cosmologically impossible.
posted by clavdivs at 6:11 PM on October 3, 2020

The real sign of trouble here is that Trump isn't tweeting random weirdness about Rosie O'Donnell or Biden/Harris right now.

Considering our experience with Herman Cain, RIP*, the absence of tweets may be a useful haruspical signal, but tweeting isn't always correlated with good health.

*America’s first minimum-wage law, passed by Congress in 1938, allowed states to set a lower wage for tipped workers, but it wasn’t until the ’60s that labor advocates persuaded Congress to adopt a federal tipped minimum wage that increased in tandem with the regular minimum wage. In 1996, former Godfather’s Pizza CEO Herman Cain, who was then head of the National Restaurant Association, helped convince a Republican-led Congress to decouple the two wages. The tipped minimum has been stuck at $2.13 ever since.

posted by sebastienbailard at 6:14 PM on October 3, 2020 [15 favorites]

Scions of the Trump family have been born rich for generations, and with notable exceptions the process does not seem to produce nice people.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 6:19 PM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

For those interested in the testing cycle (or frequency), Biden was not again tested today but "plans" on getting tested tomorrow.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 6:23 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

We're getting the pee tape on Tuesday, aren't we.

i've never left you, i've been with you always.
posted by pee tape at 6:49 PM on October 3, 2020 [171 favorites]

Live tweets from 1942 @RealTimeWWII
The Führer is now on a daily experimental drug cocktail, including opiates, methamphetamine, tranquilisers & hormones. Hitler's personal physician, Dr. Theodor Morell, gives him dozens of pills & injections every day.
5:28 PM · Oct 3, 2020

posted by sebastienbailard at 7:04 PM on October 3, 2020 [20 favorites]

Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them.

posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:09 PM on October 3, 2020 [25 favorites]

I'd really appreciate it if some mefi folk could do some analysis of the trump videos, for edits and cuts, if for nothing else...

Take this video discussion, change out Trump for Hillary/Obama/Soros/whatever, and you can find these comments practically verbatim at your favorite local QAnon message board. It is literally the same sort of stuff.
posted by sideshow at 7:14 PM on October 3, 2020 [62 favorites]

Such a law would overwhelmingly be used to prosecute the poor and powerless, like underpaid workers who have no option but to work when sick. The Senator Johnsons of the country would never be charged.

This. Anyone who thinks a law like this wouldn't immediately be used to arrest any black person that so much as coughs is deluding themselves.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:22 PM on October 3, 2020 [15 favorites]

The fact that QAnon believers are concerned about media manipulations by those in power does not actually have any bearing on whether or not we should be concerned about media manipulations by those in power. Just like the fact that QAnon believers are convinced that the government shelters & protects serial sex predators doesn't mean we should conclude that the government does not shield & protect serial sex predators. They are confused about the details, and the perpetrators, but the evil being used to stoke their paranoia is actually real.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 7:30 PM on October 3, 2020 [16 favorites]

the evil being used to stoke their paranoia is actually real.

I'm not sure what that means -- are you saying there really are child-rape camps, but they're on Venus, and run by Republicans instead of Mars and run by Democrats?
posted by aramaic at 7:32 PM on October 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

I just can’t with those ghostwritten tweets. They lack the hatred and vitriol to which I’ve become accustomed. Where’s the baseless accusations? Complaints about the food? Random hit outs and Paranoid digs at Biden / the establishment? You disappoint.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:32 PM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

Take this video discussion, change out Trump for Hillary/Obama/Soros/whatever, and you can find these comments practically verbatim at your favorite local QAnon message board. It is literally the same sort of stuff.

Sorry no, you really can't both-sides that comment and the shit at your local favorite QAnon message board. The commenter here stated their premises reasonably, based on a history of lying and malfeasance from the people we pay to theoretically tell us accurate information about the state of our government.

On the other hand, your local QAnon message board may have people asking questions about the integrity of video content shared by Democracts, but their premises are that (((Democrats))) are running a secret international child sex trafficking ring and literally drinking baby blood.

Equating the two is gross.
posted by lazaruslong at 7:34 PM on October 3, 2020 [35 favorites]

The fact that QAnon believers are concerned about media manipulations by those in power does not actually have any bearing on whether or not we should be concerned about media manipulations by those in power.

Where we go one, we go some, maybe. Tons of us don't at all, actually.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:34 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

TIRED: the video was made upon arrival yesterday

WIRED: it's a deepfake, man
posted by Ahmad Khani at 7:36 PM on October 3, 2020 [10 favorites]

Take this video discussion, change out Trump for Hillary/Obama/Soros/whatever, and you can find these comments practically verbatim at your favorite local QAnon message board. It is literally the same sort of stuff.

There's an important difference. Conspiracy theorists assume from the outset that what they're looking at is fraud, and if they can't immediately prove it, it just means that the fraud is even more subtle and devious than they previously imagined. However, I see no evidence to suggest that Mefites can't take "no, there's no evidence of fraud here" for an answer. It's only natural for people to be suspicious of information coming from sources that they distrust; the important distinction between critical thinking and paranoid conspiracy theories is a commitment to seeking concrete evidence and the grace to accept that you may be wrong.

I'm not sure what that means -- are you saying there really are child-rape camps, but they're on Venus, and run by Republicans instead of Mars and run by Democrats?

Or, perhaps, the turtle's teeth was referring to documented accusations of child sex abuse against Trump himself, and his well-known connections to Jeffrey Epstein? This is a pretty extreme straw man. If you really didn't understand what the turtle's teeth meant, couldn't you have tried to ask for clarification without such a snarky dismissal?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:39 PM on October 3, 2020 [14 favorites]

are you saying there really are child-rape camps, but they're on Venus, and run by Republicans

Don't be silly. They're in Arizona and being run by the DHS.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:40 PM on October 3, 2020 [37 favorites]

I'm saying that Republicans have a very spot-on track record of accusing their opponents of what they in fact are guilty of doing, or would like to do, or are trying to find the means to do.

QAnon is becoming mainstream among the GOP. If there is a sizable contingent of QAnoners insisting that the other side is "winning the PR war with deepfake videos", we should absolutely expect that Republicans are going to include that in their arsenal whenever it proves expedient for them.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 7:40 PM on October 3, 2020 [13 favorites]

Friendly reminder that attempting to interpret vital signs in a vacuum is basically meaningless. Vital signs need to be interpreted all together and in the context of a persons baseline, medical history, presenting complaint, etc. Without that information it’s just random numbers for the most part.
posted by supercrayon at 7:44 PM on October 3, 2020 [23 favorites]

These people can’t even make their own memes — they retweet them from teenage Nazis. They’re definitely not producing deepfake videos at the drop of a hat.
posted by neroli at 7:44 PM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

Equating the two is gross.

Well, stop trying to use “YouTube based blood flow analysis to secretly determine a medical diagnosis of a major policial figure”, and you won’t get associated with that other group of people who literally do exactly the same thing.
posted by sideshow at 7:45 PM on October 3, 2020 [14 favorites]

It's fine to look for obvious edits in the video, like there's pretty clearly a cough that was likely edited out, but doing bizarre analysis of pulse and blood pressure with tools that would only ever work in a controlled environment, or trying to figure out if things were filmed in front of a green screen, or debating a particular shade of green the president is turning, or trying to assume medical diagnoses based on nothing more than speculation of what you think an individual symptom sounds like is completely unproductive and is basically just going to lead to the spread of more disinformation, which we clearly don't need right now.
posted by mikesch at 7:45 PM on October 3, 2020 [15 favorites]

I think maybe everybody just pumps the brakes here a little. In the absence of actual news we don't need to spin off excess energy going in a dozen directions on this speculative stuff and metaanalysis thereof.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:47 PM on October 3, 2020 [59 favorites]

HERE'S A MEME FOR YOU
posted by lalochezia at 7:49 PM on October 3, 2020 [21 favorites]

we should absolutely expect that Republicans are going to include that in their arsenal whenever it proves expedient for them.

That assumes a level of competence that Trump has never demonstrated before now.

Look, folks, Trump doesn’t do conspiracies — he just accuses others of them. Rather, he bullshits and tells easily-disproven lies until you’re worn down and just give in to whatever he wants. Guile, cleverness, and subtlety are simply not in his skill set.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 7:54 PM on October 3, 2020 [8 favorites]

So tonight Sen. Lindsey Graham had a debate with his challenger, one Jaime Harrison. And because Graham had been in close contact with Sen. Mike Lee, who has since tested positive, Harrison showed up with a plexiglass shield he set up around his podium.

The optics are....*Chef's kiss*
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:02 PM on October 3, 2020 [83 favorites]

I know that numbers are meaningless without the full diagnostic pictures. But I would love to know his ferritin and fibrinogen levels. Imagine calling critical values to the nurse taking care of potus.
posted by MaritaCov at 8:11 PM on October 3, 2020

If the video discussion stuff was related to me, let me be absolutely clear since I got a bit nerd excited:

Using images to determine blood flow (PPG) is a well known technique with scientific validity. For example, it is used in hospitals to determine heart rate of infants via reading their hands. The paper I cited for deep fakes recently came from Bruce Schneier's blog, a security research of high repute. Since I didn't know about PPG before this and because I'm in the computer vision field right now I was curious if I could determine with a degree of accuracy Trump's heart rate. Sanjay Gupta or some other medical expert I believe was on CNN saying we didn't know Trump's vitals such as heart rate. I absolutely did not believe the Trump video was a deep fake, but I can see how it might've come off as that since I did find this in a roundabout way via a paper about deepfakes.

After coming back from my jog I was at 110 bpm and after some calibration the algorithm does give a pretty accurate pulse rate it seems with a rough accuracy of 5-10 bpm.

I wasn't going to say anything more simply because there was nothing to add on this, but I wanted to make sure it was clear that this was just a "hey neat" sort of thing.
posted by geoff. at 8:16 PM on October 3, 2020 [35 favorites]

I can't believe I spent four minutes of my life watching the Walter Reed video. All I can think of is six words.

Don't you think he looks tired?

I haven't looked at the video, just seen screen caps... but yesterday I did see him get off the helicopter on TV, or board it, I forget which, and his face was that of a depressed and tired teenager, I swear. It was odd...
posted by JoeXIII007 at 8:33 PM on October 3, 2020

My read on the video is that.... he basically looks a bit sick. There are no obvious-to-me signs of drugs propping him up, but he also doesn't look quite well. His breathing doesn't look labored, but he does sound a bit off. I guess it's possible that the video was taped yesterday rather than today, but I fail to see what the payoff would be to sit on it for a single day.

Perhaps this opinion is going out on a limb, but the video seems kinda like a nothingburger to me.
posted by tclark at 8:36 PM on October 3, 2020 [18 favorites]

Axios, quoting Mark Meadows on Fox just now, (bolding added):

White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows told Fox News Saturday night that President Trump's blood oxygen level had "dropped rapidly" after he was diagnosed with the coronavirus, but he's now "doing well."

...
"You know, he had a fever and his blood oxygen level had dropped rapidly ... and yet, in typical style, this — this president was — was up and walking around and, even as the experts from the medical facilities not only at Walter Reed but also Johns Hopkins, got there, they — they looked at his situation and recommended that, out of an abundance of caution, that he come here to Walter Reed," Meadows added.

posted by sebastienbailard at 8:39 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

Don't you think he looks tired?

Heh, ISWYDT.
posted by suelac at 8:39 PM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

you can find these comments practically verbatim at your favorite local QAnon message board. It is literally the same sort of stuff.

That was my internal response to the rampant "obviously he's faking/lying about it" from early Friday onward.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:43 PM on October 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

It was my external response!
posted by Justinian at 8:44 PM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

"but yesterday I did see him get off the helicopter on TV, or board it, I forget which, and his face was that of a depressed and tired teenager, I swear. It was odd..."

He was wearing a mask ( hard to believe, I know).
posted by jonathanhughes at 8:49 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

@JenniferJJacobs (Bloomberg News):

NEWS: One of Trump’s personal assistants has tested positive for coronavirus, sources tell me. Nick Luna, as bodyman, works in very close proximity to the president so it’s not surprising.

Another factor that is unsettling White House aides tonight is Nick Luna is married Cassidy Dumbauld, who is an aide to Jared Kushner. More people in the circle around Trump’s senior adviser diagnosed with coronavirus.

posted by gwint at 8:54 PM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]

geoff - the video discussion didn't start with your posts; they quoted mine:

I'd really appreciate it if some mefi folk could do some analysis of the trump videos, for edits and cuts, if for nothing else...

Take this video discussion, change out Trump for Hillary/Obama/Soros/whatever, and you can find these comments practically verbatim at your favorite local QAnon message board. It is literally the same sort of stuff.

By no means was I trying to start conspiracy theories; rather, I was asking for help on analyzing the credibility of a type of text (digital video) where I lack the experience to do so adequately myself. Just as some people can look at a photo and immediately see the "photoshop disaster" in it (and just as I can spot the suspicious hallmarks in a white house press release that purports to be written by a doctor), I supposed there must be people who can do the same with video. Trump's people aren't trustworthy, and I'd need assistance in order to tell if video is one of the ways their untrustworthiness is manifested--someone to tell me "yeah that cut is suspicious, and it actually looks like they did two other cuts," or "looks like they used image stabilization (?) and that's just an artifact," or "actually it looks pretty normal." Not sure that qualifies me for a Qanon message board.
posted by mabelstreet at 8:55 PM on October 3, 2020 [5 favorites]

Shout out to all my fellow sober mefites.

Hear, hear. And given that a "day" now seems to last about 72 hours, feel free to switch over to "one hour at a time" mode.
posted by mabelstreet at 9:03 PM on October 3, 2020 [19 favorites]

That was my internal response to the rampant "obviously he's faking/lying about it"

my immediate response included "he could be faking/lying about it, he's Trump, he's a faker and a liar, I'd be a fool not to allow for the possibility". But just because something's plausible doesn't make it so. And so far I've seen/heard nothing conclusive in that regard. And more to the point, I haven't encountered anyone from what I'd call the rational left (or wherever anti-Trump types find themselves) insisting that he is in fact lying/faking, let alone providing compelling evidence -- so yeah, I'm inclined to think the President has gone and gotten himself bitten by the disease he refused to take seriously.

What a foolish ass!
posted by philip-random at 9:51 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

new Trump address video from the hospital
posted by rainy at 9:54 PM on October 3, 2020

These hospital address videos are like the 2020 version of the tapes we used to get from Osama Bin Laden.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:58 PM on October 3, 2020 [22 favorites]

Everyone in a 12-step program should receive a five-year chip for surviving 2020 sober.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:03 PM on October 3, 2020 [75 favorites]

UK hospitals already using Trump antibody drug, says expert
posted by mumimor at 10:03 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]

Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them.

This is a valid point, and I'm willing to admit my privilege in not considering that angle. But, if regular citizens can be arrested for intentionally spreading the virus, rather than accidentally, then congresscritters and other elected officials should be held to the same standard. Multiple members of the GOP, in just the last 5 days, have INTENTIONALLY gone to places where they are not wearing a mask AFTER they had a positive covid test. They should be prosecuted. They should be held in the same jails that are killing Americans by the score every day. They should not have special access to miracle drugs, they should be forced to live or die by the consequences of their own action.

I am tired of there being no rules for Republicans, while the rest of us slowly descend into madness from being quarantined. My husband's mother passed away this morning. Alone in a hospital, after decades of being a nurse and bringing comfort to thousands. That makes 5 people I will never get to see again since this pandemic started. I'm tired of the GOP's shit. I have no more fucks to give.

I want them to suffer consequences. I want to believe in a just world. I want justice.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:12 PM on October 3, 2020 [96 favorites]

I just want a mental vacation from the constant stream of Republican lies and chaos and callous treatment of innocent people's lives.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:40 PM on October 3, 2020 [24 favorites]

As virus spreads across GOP ranks, some Republicans say party will pay price for ‘stupid’ approach Washington Post (via MSN)

“There was a panic before this started, but now we’re sort of the stupid party,” said Edward J. Rollins, co-chairman of the pro-Trump super PAC Great America. “Candidates are being forced to defend themselves every day on whether they agree with this or that, in terms of what the president did on the virus.”

posted by kristi at 10:42 PM on October 3, 2020 [23 favorites]

I've been calling them the Stupid Party for years, I'm glad it's finally catching on.
posted by mmoncur at 10:44 PM on October 3, 2020 [21 favorites]

I think framing it as stupidity de-empathizes the contempt for human suffering, and that the RNC isn't much more then pro-business and ethnology-chauvanist, meaning they're centered on contempt for human suffering when it's workers and when it's people of other ethnicities and heritages.

> As virus spreads across GOP ranks, some Republicans say party will pay price for ‘stupid’ approach Washington Post (via MSN)

Buried at the bottom:

Meanwhile, RNC and Trump campaign volunteers are going to keep up with ongoing field efforts, such as door-knocking campaigns, even though in-person fundraisers have been canceled, party officials said.

On Saturday, a group of top Republicans carried on campaigning in Iowa. For Gov. Kim Reynolds (R) and Trump political adviser Marc Lotter, among others, the road trip across the state was business as usual.

Lotter tweeted out photos from the tour, including a shot of Reynolds and Republicans without masks and high-fiving indoors. Posters with “Trump 2020” and “Trump: Keep America Great” were on the wall.

posted by sebastienbailard at 11:07 PM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

I don't want to go down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, but what the heck is going in with the reflections in this photo?
posted by bink at 11:18 PM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

RNC isn't much more then pro-business and ethnology-chauvanist, meaning they're centered on contempt for human suffering

Trumpism, however, is focused on being able to flaunt the rules of the out-group if you are the in-group. That's why tribalist mask hate took hold; Dear Leader didn't like masks and Dems did, thus mask avoidance became a way to trigger the libs!!!1! Unfortunately for them viral transmission is not some postmodernist propaganda fight. SARS-Cov-2 is relentless and doesn't care about news cycles. They brought a propaganda bullhorn to a biology knife fight.
posted by benzenedream at 11:20 PM on October 3, 2020 [34 favorites]

Jenna Johnson, Dan Morse, Amy B. Wang and Brent D. Griffiths in The Washington Post:
“Their president is hospitalized, but that hasn’t changed their view of the coronavirus”

“If the leader of the free world can get this, I think it’s kind of silly for the rest of us to pretend a $3 handkerchief from Walmart is going to protect us,” said Brian Westrate, the Wisconsin Republican Party treasurer who believes the coronavirus is a real threat and complies with a statewide mask mandate but is a “skeptic of the societal response.”

Miranda Devine in The New York Post: “‘I’m going to beat this,’ Trump tells Rudy Giuliani of COVID-19 during phone call”

The president dictated a statement to Giuliani:

“You go tell people I’m watching this coverage [reporting he’s taken a turn for the worse].

“I feel I could get out of here right now. But they’re telling me there can always be a backstep with this disease. But I feel I could go out and do a rally.

“I am the president of the United States. I can’t lock myself in a room. … I had to confront [the virus] so the American people stopped being afraid of it so we could deal with it responsibly.

“We have made tremendous progress on treating this disease. Fatality rates are very low compared to [the beginning].

“I’m going to beat this.“Then I will be able to show people we can deal with this disease responsibly, but we shouldn’t be afraid of it.

“If I had handled it any other way, I would have created more panic, more fear in the American people.“We are making great progress on dealing with this disease and making better progress with the economy than anyone had the right to expect.”

posted by Going To Maine at 11:44 PM on October 3, 2020 [4 favorites]

But what is he going to do to make sure that everybody has access to the level of care he's getting?

[rhetorical question... I know, nothing... ugh]
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:50 PM on October 3, 2020 [11 favorites]

The president dictated a statement to Giuliani

Now we have two problems.
posted by ryoshu at 11:53 PM on October 3, 2020 [40 favorites]

Since when has Trump relied on dictating statements to anyone in order to communicate to the public? Why isn't he tweeting instead? And why does his dictated statement sound like something Giuliani would say, rather than something he would say?
posted by biogeo at 11:53 PM on October 3, 2020 [10 favorites]

He did records a similar video later in the day.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:57 PM on October 3, 2020

Editor's Note: This story has been updated to reflect that Sen. Ron Johnson was still awaiting the results of his COVID-19 test when he attended the Oktoberfest. He says he got the result that he was positive afterward.

Johnson's still a piece of work, though, who's been speaking out against mask mandates, and who spent most of his time on the Homeland Security Committee using his position in a witch-hunt to smear Hunter Biden.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:02 AM on October 4, 2020 [9 favorites]

Editor's Note: This story has been updated to reflect that Sen. Ron Johnson was still awaiting the results of his COVID-19 test when he attended the Oktoberfest. He says he got the result that he was positive afterward.

This is still entirely irresponsible. You test, you stay home. Because if you're going out and about after the test and you're positive, you're spreading it. If you're out and about after the test and you're negative, you might catch it before you get your results back, which will lead you to spreading it.

In brief, christ what an asshole.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:16 AM on October 4, 2020 [46 favorites]

There's more than enough wild speculation throughout this thread, so I should be perfectly clear that I don't believe this to be true..

But nevertheless there is a part of me who hopes that we one day learn that Chris Christie didn't actually test positive for COVID-19 but checked himself into the hospital anyway because he was deeply hurt by once again being left out of whatever all of the members of the inner circle were doing.
posted by Nerd of the North at 12:22 AM on October 4, 2020 [67 favorites]

I think the videos are real but I've had severe asthma attacks during which I could totally talk for 30 seconds without seeming crazy sick. I even walked into an ER once in the middle of an attack and the attendant assumed I was talking about someone else because I seemed fine, until I basically collapsed.

Shit, I suffered a collapsed lung and not only did I have the presence and energy - while basically actively dying and sweating so much and in so much pain I thought I was having a severe heart attack - to put my pants back on, pack a bag with my laptop and charger and some snacks and needful things.

And then I negotiated a Seattle Fire Department response telling me I was having a panic attack that they really needed to call an ambulance because I was certainly not having a panic attack and I was actively dying.

And then I ended up doing tech support in the ER coming out of a profanol full sedation stupor a bit too early for a chest cavity intubation because I heard someone say "the computer isn't responding" and I automatically said "Do you need to save any data? No? Press and hold the power button until it turns off and then turn it back on again!" and as I was coming out of my super cool trippy milk-of-amnesia fog I finally was aware of like 12 ER staff wondering how and why the fuck I was awake and doing tech support and making a note they might have malpractice suit on their hands if I wanted to make a stink about coming out of sedation waaaay too early while they were still working on that vacuum tube stuck right in my ribs.

Nah, we're cool. Glad to be awake and helpful. Get that data into my chart and get that vacuum tube going and keep that oxygen flowing, we're super cool.

I'm not that remarkable. People are capable of some super intense things when it comes to either survival or keeping up appearances and trying to be ok.

I see we've all pulled out the dank nugs tonight

Not yet, but that's mainly because I forgot my dank at home and I've been at work all day. Give me like 15 minutes to catch up, please.

Oh shit, I just realized I'm in a John Brunner novel. We're just missing packet-based public transport pods.
posted by loquacious at 1:28 AM on October 4, 2020 [71 favorites]

Also this timeline is fucking *bonkers* and I don't have this "Executive/GOP catches C19!" on my bingo card full of crazy stuff for 2020. Like most people I have "giant meteor" but I also have "zombie dinosaurs" and worse.

Here's a Stephen King plot twist for you:

Assume Trump "recovers" and "wins" the election. Except, y'know, there's this cognitive degradation thing that's increasingly a known thing as a result of surviving C19 infection.

In this Stephen King plot we have a class Alpha "mad king" thing going on with a modern twist.

But almost everyone else is going mad, too, but they don't have the mindfulness or experience to know they're going totally mad and irrational.

I'm not really kidding or joke workshopping. People are increasingly going kind of bonkers due to the isolation and stress of all this - before we even address any of the cognitive issues of being infected or catching C19. The pace of modern life and global awareness as we know it today wasn't really a thing in 1918-1920.

I was already kind of bonkers so my question is mainly this: Is this a fast zombie or slow zombie movie?
posted by loquacious at 1:40 AM on October 4, 2020 [16 favorites]

Looking at todays news, it seems this second wave is worse than the first one.

Watching the English-language Israeli TV channel i24 News^† a few minutes ago I was interested to see a story about a hospital in Haifa that is only just now converting its parking garage into a covid ward as a preparatory measure.

† Extremely politically conservative, to the right of Fox News I'd say from my limited viewing.
posted by XMLicious at 1:43 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

COVID-19 could cause your hair to fall out

The most common symptom was fatigue, followed by muscle or body aches, and shortness of breath or difficulty breathing. Many also reported effects on the brain like difficulty concentrating or memory issues.

Would he even notice the difference?

Another noteworthy finding was that over 400 patients said they experienced hair loss.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
posted by adept256 at 1:59 AM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

Y'know, it's not even multi-level chess for the Trump side to encourage side talk that things are much worse than the official line, and maybe even the videos are fake, so that the swift recovery when it comes is even more miraculous and Trump-affirming.

It was kind of ham-handed for the secret White House source to speak more or less on the record, tho.
posted by chavenet at 2:01 AM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

Also this timeline is fucking *bonkers* and I don't have this "Executive/GOP catches C19!" on my bingo card full of crazy stuff for 2020.
Why not? From the moment Trump made mask-wearing a political issue, you just had to wait until the coronavirus reached red states.

It's also worth noting that the infections spreading out over those red states now is only the first wave. This will get worse, and if Republicans continue to be the party of stupid, they will eventually pay for it. I bet some are hoping Trump doesn't get elected so they can get back to just being evil.
posted by mumimor at 2:57 AM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

Why not? From the moment Trump made mask-wearing a political issue, you just had to wait until the coronavirus reached red states.

I truly believed he and his ilk perpetuated the maskless thing only to keep their base in line with the idea that the administration did a great job, it isn’t a big deal etc all the while as a famous germaphobe Trump and the crew was lock down solid on everyone around them, with constant testing and actual distancing in person.

But at least the second part obviously didn’t happen, or else we’re not here. And it’s conceivable he does come out of this and then continues to downplay the virus despite his getting the very best care.

The worst situation for the GOP I think is his survival with minimal or not obvious lasting effects, while their donor base and Senators spread the virus around like an hors d'oeuvre platter of death.
posted by glaucon at 3:31 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

Interesting aside on the discussion over walking around looking fine while having low blood oxygen -- some scientists think they've found the reason this is happening to covid patients. An article popped up the other day in Amsterdam's newspaper Het Parool about the brain damage that's caused by covid. (It's in Dutch. Pro-tip, deepl is better than Google if you need a translation.)

tl;dr: One place the virus attacks is the area that senses low blood oxygen levels. Usually low blood oxygen would make you tired and weak, but since the regulator system in your brain isn't working those symptoms don't get triggered so you don't "feel" it.. you just eventually collapse. There's more in the article -- olfactory nerve damage that destroys your sense of smell, other damage that gives you the brain fog, memory loss, and ADHD-like symptoms, etc. Interesting and scary read.
posted by antinomia at 3:45 AM on October 4, 2020 [39 favorites]

Trump’s Hollywood Walk of Fame Star Vandalized by Someone Dressed as the Hulk

They've started digging into the psychedelics in the writer's room.
posted by chavenet at 4:01 AM on October 4, 2020 [15 favorites]

did they edit out a coughing fit here?

please help i feel like i'm turning into one of those people that circles stuff in red
posted by um at 4:09 AM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

These are the extreme measures Vladimir Putin takes to avoid COVID-19
posted by robbyrobs at 4:13 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

God i hope the hospital serves Chris Christie meatloaf for Sunday dinner
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:08 AM on October 4, 2020 [15 favorites]

I don't want to go down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, but what the heck is going in with the reflections in this photo?

It's a little counter-intuitive but nothing prevents a reflection of something being visible even when that thing itself is blocked from view. And if reflections didn't work that way, they'd have zero reason to fake it because a desk can simply be nonreflective.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 5:09 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

Heh.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:13 AM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

Were this a normal Sunday during this administration and Trump hadn't started the day with a tweet storm complaining about SNL, we'd joke that he must be dead or in a coma.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:40 AM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

So I guess nothing will change from all this. Assuming he recovers... he’ll have a new talking point to campaign with, that he “beat” coronavirus. And he still won’t wear a mask. Once you’ve recovered, why would you need one?
posted by kira at 6:23 AM on October 4, 2020

72% of Americans think Trump did not take appropriate virus precautions, according to a new ABC/Ipsos poll

“In the wake of Trump's diagnosis, the survey also found an increasing number of Americans concerned that they, or someone they know, will be infected with the virus. Eighty-one percent are either very or somewhat concerned about contracting COVID-19, compared to 72% two weeks ago. The percentage of "very concerned" respondents rose 8 percentage points, from 29% to 37%.

“The overall jump can be almost entirely attributed to Republicans, whose net concern increased 18 points (52% to 70%), and independents, whose concern increased 13 points (69% to 82%). Democrats held steady at 86%.”
posted by glaucon at 6:27 AM on October 4, 2020 [31 favorites]

Once you’ve recovered, why would you need one?

Is it possible for a recovered COVID patient to still be a carrier/transmitter in any way? Or, are they now totally immune and safe to be near?
posted by Thorzdad at 6:29 AM on October 4, 2020

We're still not sure if infection leads to immunity, and we can't yet know how long immunity lasts. The best thing to do since we are unsure is to just wear a damn mask.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:31 AM on October 4, 2020 [35 favorites]

So I guess nothing will change from all this. Assuming he recovers... he’ll have a new talking point to campaign with, that he “beat” coronavirus. And he still won’t wear a mask. Once you’ve recovered, why would you need one?

The election is less than a month away. People are already voting. Assuming he recovers, even if he has a very mild case, he's not going to have a whole lot of time to change the narrative. And there's no reason to think that he's going to have a very mild case. Even if he eventually recovers, he may be out of commission until after the election is over.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:37 AM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

72% of Americans think Trump did not take appropriate virus precautions, according to a new ABC/Ipsos poll

28% is a lot... how did the pollsters reach so many people living in caves without TV or internet?
posted by Foosnark at 6:43 AM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

Is it possible for a recovered COVID patient to still be a carrier/transmitter in any way? Or, are they now totally immune and safe to be near?

I think we're fairly certain you stop being a transmitter otherwise the pandemic would move in much different kinds of ways. But re-infection is definitely possible. There are several cases accepted by the medical community, although I don't think they understand the conditions under which it happens and it's certainly rare.
posted by dis_integration at 6:46 AM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

When You Can be Around Others After You Had or Likely Had COVID-19, CDC.gov, 9/10/2020:

At this time, we have limited information about reinfections with the virus that causes COVID-19. This is a new virus, and CDC is actively working to learn more. We will provide updates as they become available. Data to date show that a person who has had and recovered from COVID-19 may have low levels of virus in their bodies for up to 3 months after diagnosis. This means that if the person who has recovered from COVID-19 is retested within 3 months of initial infection, they may continue to have a positive test result, even though they are not spreading COVID-19.

There are no confirmed reports to date of a person being reinfected with COVID-19 within 3 months of initial infection. However, additional research is ongoing. Therefore, if a person who has recovered from COVID-19 has new symptoms of COVID-19, the person may need an evaluation for reinfection, especially if the person has had close contact with someone infected with COVID-19. The person should isolate and contact a healthcare provider to be evaluated for other causes of their symptoms, and possibly retested.

CDC recommends that all people, whether or not they have had COVID-19, take steps to prevent getting and spreading COVID-19. Wash hands regularly, stay at least 6 feet away from others whenever possible, and wear masks....

posted by cenoxo at 6:46 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

We've already seen how Trump will spin this, assuming he recovers. "I beat the virus for all of America! Has Biden even fought the virus? No! Only I can save us because I have personally fought this virus and won! Biden hides from the virus with his giant mask but I faced it and defeated it!"

And even if it doesn’t have the intended effect on the election itself, we’ll still end up with 40% of the US in a covid party death cult, complete with invitations and balloons. And superfestive instagrammed covid testing result parties so widespread and creative and pyrotechnic that whatever’s left of the country will catch fire.
posted by mochapickle at 6:48 AM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

These days, I have been getting a real the-ant-and-the-grasshopper feeling of satisfaction whenever I take a long, deep breath of fresh air.

This carefree, casual breath is why I wear my mask.

This is why I wash my hands.

This is why I take vitamin D supplements.

This is why I don't hug my friends, don't go to restaurants, don't go to movies, don't do all those things I used to love to do with other people.

This lungful of air is what my efforts have bought me. Simply life. Life without coughing—without struggling for breath, terrified, intubated and sedated, in a hospital bed surrounded by strangers.

Maybe someday I'll draw that three-of-a-kind, and I'll take my turn in that hospital bed. But I've removed as many cards as I can from my deck. If COVID-19 is how I go out, I want it to be because I was the unluckiest son-of-a-bitch on planet Earth.

I'm not done breathing yet.
posted by springo at 6:49 AM on October 4, 2020 [104 favorites]

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Democrat Joe Biden opened his widest lead in a month in the U.S. presidential race after President Donald Trump tested positive for the coronavirus, and a majority of Americans think Trump could have avoided infection if he had taken the virus more seriously, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Sunday.
posted by robbyrobs at 6:52 AM on October 4, 2020 [16 favorites]

a majority of Americans think Trump could have avoided infection if he had taken the virus more seriously, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Sunday.

This is why I was rolling my eyes over the conspiracy theory that he was faking it for some kind of political gain.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:59 AM on October 4, 2020 [19 favorites]

28% is a lot... how did the pollsters reach so many people living in caves without TV or internet?

This is your regular link to the Crazification Factor
posted by mumimor at 7:06 AM on October 4, 2020 [25 favorites]

Trump’s Covid Treatments Are Aimed at Preventing Severe Illness (NYTimes)
Outside experts pointed to the therapies as signs that the president’s health may not be as good as his doctors said. His age, weight and gender put him at high risk.
It pretty much sums up all the medical questions and doubts we have discussed in this thread. I really don't get why they aren't honest about it. I know there are precedents for presidential healthcare to be secretive, but I can't see any good reason for this, other than a culture of consistent obfuscation in the White House.
posted by mumimor at 7:15 AM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

After punching himself in the face for 90 minutes on Tuesday, he wasn’t doing himself any favors already. NBC WSJ polling post debate.
posted by Harry Caul at 7:17 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

As a bit of an, um, antidote, to people heading down the rabbit hole of "doctored" videos or green screens or body doubles or whatever, here's an example of what this bunch of ripe sucks and fools are actually capable of when it comes to creating propaganda:

Twitter thread by Jon Ostrower regarding the two "working hard!!" photos released last night:

The photos released by the WH tonight of the president working at Walter Reed were taken 10 minutes apart at 5:25:59 pm and 5:35:40 pm ET Saturday, according to the EXIF data embedded in both @AP wire postings that were shared by the White House this evening.

IOW, they got him dressed, took a picture of him "signing" things (and multiple people have noted that he seems to be "signing" blank pieces of paper (with a Sharpie, of course)), threw a jacket on him and shuffled him off to another room for another fast photo op, clearly trying to give the impression that he's been doing stuff for hours, only, oops, they forgot to strip the data (or didn't realize it existed) that only proves that they kept him upright for about 15 minutes.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:23 AM on October 4, 2020 [75 favorites]

TTTCS, but that is landslide territory!
posted by mumimor at 7:23 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

Maybe someday I'll draw that three-of-a-kind, and I'll take my turn in that hospital bed. But I've removed as many cards as I can from my deck. If COVID-19 is how I go out, I want it to be because I was the unluckiest son-of-a-bitch on planet Earth.

Hi, from an unlucky son-of-a-bitch!

I know that it's satisfying that people's active bad habits are coming home to roost, but maybe we could refrain from making getting COVID a moral failing. I'd sure appreciate it. As would everyone else who had the bad luck of getting sick during a pandemic, and also all of the people who haven't had the ability to take all those steps, especially since they're the ones most likely to be devastated finically by the fall out.

Don't get me wrong, I'm also the most "wash your damn hands, put on a mask, follow local and national guidelines" person you're ever going to meet. Largely because there's always going to be people who are vulnerable, for one reason or another, and those of us that can help slow the spread owe it to them to do what we can. I just happen to believe that thing that we can do includes not adding social stigma on top of serious illness.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:28 AM on October 4, 2020 [108 favorites]

dis_integration: for some reason I can't follow your first link. But my understanding (which comes from listening to a lot of TWIV) is that immunity does not stop you from getting infected, just from getting sick. So the question is, can your level of infection, if you are re-exposed, be high enough be infectious? I'm worried that because asymptomatic people can spread the disease, those who are immune can also spread it if they get infected even though they don't get sick. But of course, it could be that if you are immune and get infected your immune system kills off the infection before your viral load gets high enough for you to exhale it in sufficient quantities to infect someone else. Maybe I should write in a question to TWIV, or maybe we have an immunologist around who has a better understanding of how these things work.
posted by antinomia at 7:30 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

Study Confirms It’s Possible to Catch COVID Twice, WebMD, Brenda Goodman, 8/24/2020:

August 24, 2020 — Researchers in Hong Kong say they’ve confirmed that a person can be infected with COVID-19 twice. There have been sporadic accounts on social media sites of people who say they’ve gotten COVID twice. But scientists have been skeptical about that possibility, saying there’s no evidence it happens.

The new proof comes from a 33-year-old man in Hong Kong who first caught COVID-19 in March. He was tested for the coronavirus after he developed a cough, sore throat, fever, and a headache for 3 days. He stayed in the hospital until he twice tested negative for the virus in mid-April.

On Aug. 15, the man returned to Hong Kong from a recent trip to Spain and the U.K., areas that have recently seen a resurgence of COVID-19 cases. At the airport, he was screened for COVID-19 using a test that checks saliva for the virus. He tested positive, but this time, had no symptoms. He was taken to the hospital for monitoring. His viral load -- the amount of virus he had in his body -- went down over time, suggesting that his immune system was taking care of the intrusion on its own.

The special thing about his case is that each time he was hospitalized, doctors sequenced the genome of the virus that infected him. It was slightly different from one infection to the next, suggesting that the virus had mutated -- or changed -- in the 4 months between his infections. It also proves that it’s possible for this coronavirus to infect the same person twice....

More details in the article. The fact that COVID-19 mutated between infections/hospitalizations creates problems for rapid, effective vaccine development and treatment:

...It also suggests that immune-based therapies such as convalescent plasma and monoclonal antibodies may be of limited help over time, since the virus might be changing in ways that help it outsmart those treatments....

There probably won’t be any miracle cures, hence the emphasis on continued avoidance and prevention.
posted by cenoxo at 7:40 AM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

I'm wondering if mutations are the reason the second outbreak we are going through here is hitting the young far harder. I've tried to google but it's probably too early for actual research.
posted by mumimor at 7:45 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

I'm wondering if mutations are the reason the second outbreak we are going through here is hitting the young far harder.

I live in one of the places that has had a big spike among the young, and from what state authorities are saying, it's much more an "expect horses" situation. Younger people got the message they weren't as high-risk, really pushed hte boundaries of social distancing this summer at parties and outdoor bars and vacation houses, and are now returning to school settings. That spike can be explained mainly by these behavioral factors.
posted by Miko at 7:59 AM on October 4, 2020 [21 favorites]

My dad is 79 and in pretty terrible health. He smoked for forty years. He had a stroke. He had a valve replacement. He has diabetes, high blood pressure, and low functioning kidneys. In July, he tested positive for Covid-19. He was admitted to the hospital and was put on oxygen immediately. I was not allowed to visit with him in the hospital. He sounded very weak and reported a fatigue that exceeded any fatigue he had felt before. It has been five years since the death of my father might be something that surprised me. The worst part was thinking that he was in that room alone.

Then a week later the hospital called me to tell me they were discharging him. It came out of nowhere. Was he going to hospice? Nope. He was being discharged because he was off oxygen and his symptoms had subsided. His assisted living facility would not take him back until he tested negative, so he had to go to a different place an hour away. He stayed there for about a month. That particular facility was more of a rehab facility, so he received more physical therapy than he ever had for the month he was there. Finally, he returned to his regular assisted living facility. They reported that he was stronger and had more stamina than at any time in the past two years. I guess all of that extra physical therapy really made a difference for him.

So -- in a sense -- Covid-19 improved the health of my father.
posted by flarbuse at 8:02 AM on October 4, 2020 [77 favorites]

I'm wondering if mutations are the reason the second outbreak we are going through here is hitting the young far harder.

The young get more press (think of the children! and a need for some to show a statement made by some bully at a pulpit abotu how kids are gonna be alright) and are close together now (increasing viral load in confined spaces) VS the 1st time where society sent them home.

Now add in the effect of cold. Back in the early 2000's sciencedaily.com had an article about a (Brittish?) study where they put people's feet in cold water and this told the body to efffect a change in the nose which made the participants more likely to become infected to the virus used in the test. Thus the winter will have an additional effect.

Now add in Vitamin D and its lack of natural production in winter. Eventually studies about the rates of infection in Northern VS Southern hemisphere will help drive home what the CDC officially is not saying about D.

At least those 2 can have compensating behavioural changes made for not a whole lotta money. Suppliments and dressing like you are going ice fishing.

Mutation MAY have an effect - just like the anti-mask America could result in a mutation which takes SARS-COV-2 and makes it more like SARS. But there are other reasons for the observation of the the youth and the COVID-19.
posted by rough ashlar at 8:03 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

I'm wondering if mutations are the reason the second outbreak we are going through here is hitting the young far harder. I've tried to google but it's probably too early for actual research.

Almost certainly not. AFAIK there’s currently no evidence for viral strains of different pathogenicity, despite some sensational preprints to the contrary (which have been widely criticized within the virology community). In America, anyway, the young are getting hit harder this time around because they are going back to school/work/bars/etc, whereas they weren’t in the Spring. Has there been an uptick in deaths/severe disease rates among young people where you are, or just a rise in infection rates?

(IANAV, just a fan of them.)
posted by disentir at 8:04 AM on October 4, 2020 [10 favorites]

Well, stop trying to use “YouTube based blood flow analysis to secretly determine a medical diagnosis of a major policial figure”, and you won’t get associated with that other group of people who literally do exactly the same thing.

Good thing no one was trying to do that then, phew!

I am disappointed that no one seems to have picked up on the C joke i was trying to make re: pointers though. Me and my dank nugs thought we were so clever last night. Puns in the harsh light of a Sunday morning are not as pretty.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:04 AM on October 4, 2020 [9 favorites]

...that only proves that they kept him upright for about 15 minutes.

Just long enough for The Donald to act like everything is fine right now. It’s the appearance of normality at any given moment that counts, not worn-out facts from the past or wild speculations about the future. Who are you going to believe, President Trump or your lying eyes and ears?
posted by cenoxo at 8:06 AM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

Let's be very cautious when looking at an anecdotal case or two. The current best thinking is that someone who has recovered from COVID-19 might be vulnerable to reinfection, but not before three months have elapsed. There are plenty of preliminary results on "mutation" but that's a very general word, and the results have been mixed. Rapid vaccine development is exactly what is happening, at unprecedented speed. And of course only time will tell how effective they are initially, and how long their effects last. But let's be thoughtful and let science do its thing when we see just a couple of outlier cases, and preliminary, inconsistent, inconclusive information on mutations.
posted by PhineasGage at 8:07 AM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

Virus don't get together and decide to mutate in the same direction. You can have strains being selected by selection pressures, but still those need to circulate.

There can be general selection pressures (which will not always produce the same mutations) that could select somehow for youth. (Higher testosterone as a wild, off the top of my head, example.)

Viruses tend to have a general selection pressure to weaken. I believe the first wave of HIV infections (1980-85) were more virulent than later strains.

This is because if someone is infected with a virulent strain, that person is more likely to be self-isolating or in a hospital quickly. Those strains that are weaker will have carriers (people) who are more likely to go out there and expose more people.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:16 AM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

It seems like people can get reinfected (tested positive once, tested positive for antibodies, tested positive again) and at least once a different strain was involved. Currently they're saying that reinfection is rare. It seems likely that if short-term reinfection is common, we'll have good evidence in the next few months.

Erik Feigl-Ding, who on the one hand is very "OMG here is a rumor" but on the other hand does tweet out a lot of real, proven stuff, has been linking to a chart of documented reinfections. When last I saw it, there were about twenty-five, most had initial mild or asymptomatic cases and most had mild cases the second time. There have been a couple of severe cases and at least one death. Anecdotally, the reddit COVID-positive board seems to suggest that there are a lot more reinfections but they're mild - people aren't getting re-tested. I've seen a number of people report that they got sick, got better, tested positive for antibodies and then were infected by a household member and had symptoms similar to the less-bad stages of their initial infections.

My bet is that reinfection can happen, it's not going to be universal but it's not going to be totally rare, and it will mostly involve milder second cases.
posted by Frowner at 8:19 AM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

> My bet is that reinfection can happen, it's not going to be universal but it's not going to be totally rare, and it will mostly involve milder second cases.

I think that's a safe bet, but isn't the major concern that someone who's reinfected could then infect others who haven't previously been exposed? Isn't even this relatively weak form of reinfection enough to destroy whatever theoretical merit the "herd immunity" approach may have at one time had?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:36 AM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Unfortunately for them viral transmission is not some postmodernist propaganda fight. SARS-Cov-2 is relentless and doesn't care about news cycles. They brought a propaganda bullhorn to a biology knife fight.
posted by benzenedream at 12:20 AM

This reminds me of the Orwell quote:
‘The point is that we are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later, a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on the battlefield
posted by bumpkin at 8:37 AM on October 4, 2020 [30 favorites]

This is why I was rolling my eyes over the conspiracy theory that he was faking it for some kind of political gain.

the counterargument (of which I'm very skeptical) being that Trump and his crowd have inside info that tells them their situation if even more dire than the current polling suggests. They're done in November ... unless they can pull off a miracle. So yeah, desperate times = desperate measures. They'll try anything right now.
posted by philip-random at 8:40 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

“The overall jump can be almost entirely attributed to Republicans, whose net concern increased 18 points (52% to 70%), and independents, whose concern increased 13 points (69% to 82%). Democrats held steady at 86%.”
posted by glaucon

“NEW YORK (Reuters) - Democrat Joe Biden opened his widest lead in a month in the U.S. presidential race after President Donald Trump tested positive for the coronavirus, and a majority of Americans think Trump could have avoided infection if he had taken the virus more seriously, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Sunday.”
posted by robbyrobs

Oops.

God, this is delicious karma. It doesn't matter now if he is genuinely sick, or faking it to run the See Big Tough Super-Donald Triumph Over The Evil Plague scam, because there is no sympathy vote in it either way.

Just for fun, imagine he is faking it, and the voters find out.

All we need now for a perfect finale is for Biden to not get it. Take care of yourself, Joe. :)
posted by Pouteria at 8:41 AM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

Virus don't get together and decide to mutate in the same direction.

FYI to any aspiring creators, I am interested in this comic/tv/movie.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:42 AM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

Still not a single tweet that isn't obviously ghostwritten. I wonder if Donald is truly incapacitated or if he's so old he believes the thing hospitals used to tell you about cell phones interfering with sensitive equipment...
posted by mmoncur at 8:50 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

Has there been an uptick in deaths/severe disease rates among young people where you are, or just a rise in infection rates?
There are only three categories available as public data here: COVID-19 positive, hospitalized and ventilated, by municipality, age and gender. For instance, we are not supposed to be able to see the nationality, religion or race. And not wether people are asymptomatic, mildly ill or severely ill. In an official role I've seen some data that I can't share because of the above which indicate that the groups that are heavily hit right now, both in terms of severity and numbers, are not being less or more social than they were during lockdown, with a couple of spectacular exceptions.
But as it has been said by others, right now, it is just raw data, and not available to lay people.

A large group of my students caught it at a super-spreader event, which points more to the recklessness Miko mentioned, and that was what I thought at first. But when I learnt about the other data, I realized there might be a connection beyond partying. BTW, the hospitals identify mutations as part of the mapping process. So mutations are well-known, it's just not known yet what they do.
posted by mumimor at 8:50 AM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

Judging by recent comments, I am thinking the answer is "no", but: have we learned anything new since yesterday? Has any (reliable) information about the President's prognosis come to light?
posted by thelonius at 8:50 AM on October 4, 2020

Has any (reliable) information about the President's prognosis come to light?

Now on dexamethasone as per the news conference taking place right now. That's not a good sign—it's a very dirty drug with a lot of nasty side effects and definitely not something that you give as a precaution.
posted by un petit cadeau at 8:53 AM on October 4, 2020 [14 favorites]

There’s a presser going on right now.
posted by Melismata at 8:54 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

Well if the Wiki article on dexamethasone is right on when they start this for Covid-19. It can't be good.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:58 AM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

His doctor confirmed he was on O2 in the White House for hours. (Thus also confirming he was lying yesterday.) Said he would check with the nurses if he's been on it since. Lol.
posted by joeyh at 8:58 AM on October 4, 2020 [13 favorites]

@JuliusGoat just posted the Dead Parrot sketch on twitter.
posted by andreap at 9:00 AM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

In patients hospitalized with Covid-19, the use of dexamethasone resulted in lower 28-day mortality among those who were receiving either invasive mechanical ventilation or oxygen alone at randomization but not among those receiving no respiratory support

Per this NEJM link.

(bolding mine)
posted by emjaybee at 9:01 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

c'mon, pull through this ya big load, I don't want you to have a state funeral
posted by Countess Elena at 9:04 AM on October 4, 2020 [54 favorites]

Yeah on the Wiki page for dexamethasone three different health systems say it's best used for people on sup oxygen or who are ventilated, e.g. people whose SpO2 is below 94% on free air.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:07 AM on October 4, 2020

I've seen the stats on survival rates based on age, but I haven't seen survival rates based on pre-existing conditions, whether they're symptomatic vs asymptomatic, or for those receiving oxygen vs those who haven't. He's marching up the risk profile every step of the way.

On dexamethasone:
"How effective is it? According to the scientists who carried out the trials, one in three deaths could be prevented among patients on ventilators. For patients on oxygen, it could prevent one death in five. There was no significant benefit for patients who were not receiving respiratory support."
posted by karst at 9:07 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

c'mon, pull through this ya big load, I don't want you to have a state funeral

I dunno. The thought of a state funeral where no one came is kinda uplifting right now.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:12 AM on October 4, 2020 [26 favorites]

surely the whole death cult would turn up. The DC area would be awash with vansful of bad tippers in red hats
posted by Countess Elena at 9:14 AM on October 4, 2020 [18 favorites]

c'mon, pull through this ya big load, I don't want you to have a state funeral

I dunno. The thought of a state funeral where no one came is kinda uplifting right now.

Darkly poetic. It would be one hell of a bookend to his presidency.
posted by popcassady at 9:16 AM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

Sure. The crowd would be as bigly as it was at his inauguration.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:17 AM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

Instead of lowering all flags to half-mast, flagpoles will be extended by mandate so that the flags can be raised higher.
posted by delfin at 9:20 AM on October 4, 2020 [17 favorites]

All presidents, current and former, get a state funeral.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:22 AM on October 4, 2020 [14 favorites]

Instead of lowering all flags to half-mast, flagpoles will be extended by mandate so that the flags can be raised higher.

No way, that will give the way wrong signal to the death cult followers.

"They raised the flags higher because he was the best President we ever had! They made them taller to match how big Donald's dick was!"
posted by deadaluspark at 9:22 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

>sooner or later, a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on the battlefield

or boardroom
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:23 AM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Just a note dis_integration: your links are empty; any chance of reposting them?
posted by mce at 9:24 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

BTW, the hospitals identify mutations as part of the mapping process. So mutations are well-known, it's just not known yet what they do.

Right, mutations are definitely happening, but AFAIK there’s no published data out there (yet) to show that a more pathogenic or less pathogenic strain has emerged. As you say, we don’t yet know if the observed mutations are having any effect on viral behavior.

It’d be interesting if the pattern of viral spread is not explained by changes in human behavior. However, as I understand it, because this is a superspreading virus, its impact has been very uneven in different places/times. With respect to that, I found this Atlantic article interesting (not sure if it’s been mentioned here already, and sorry for the derail, I’ll stop now):
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/09/k-overlooked-variable-driving-pandemic/616548/

Also, sorry, not sure how to make the link button work... I’m really more of a lurker than a poster.
posted by disentir at 9:25 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

Nine out of ten doctors agree: There's no need to CYA.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:27 AM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

only, oops, they forgot to strip the data (or didn't realize it existed).

Stripping EXIF data is really easy to forget. It's part of my regular work flow and even I've had it leak out (usually as the result of a quick and dirty final edit). However I like to think these sorts of op-sec leaks are intentional. Some lowly social media guy loathes perpetuating propaganda and sticks it to his bosses the only plausible deniability way he can.

On the other hand Trump is campaigning. Any photo released by his campaign/people his campaign have influence with should be considered staged full stop. Remember when Pence was caught "delivering" empty boxes? This is no different. Even if Trump was working all day the photographer isn't going to hang around all day with a guy nomimally in quarantine and actual working photos aren't going to be perfectly composed (EG: the random briefcase in the first photo), lighted (looks like there are at least two photo lights and a reflector in the second picture) and without visual distractions. These are 100% staged photos even with no hints besides the photos themselves.
posted by Mitheral at 9:27 AM on October 4, 2020 [23 favorites]

I suppose one possible difference in how the public treats Trump's case vs. Johnson's is that Johnson got it from comforting the sick, and it's looking like Trump caught it by spiting a dead woman's final wish.

Yeah, his sickness absolutely came about from his own actions. I hope that will at least trickle through to those who (currently) support those actions.
posted by corb at 9:34 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

It seems like people can get reinfected (tested positive once, tested positive for antibodies, tested positive again) and at least once a different strain was involved. Currently they're saying that reinfection is rare. It seems likely that if short-term reinfection is common, we'll have good evidence in the next few months.

This happens naturally as part of the law of large numbers. Antibodies can have a weak affinity that bind strongly enough to one strain but not to another and since your memory cells basically store exact copies of antibodies...

We're 7 months in and the fact that reinfections are rare enough that it's still actual news rather than mass reinfection in vulnerable populations that aren't taking any sort of precautions makes me believe long term immunity is a thing. But that being said, do you want to roll the dice that your antibodies are one of the weaker affinity ones and go through the whole rigmarole again?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:36 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

Instead of lowering all flags to half-mast, flagpoles will be extended by mandate so that the flags can be raised higher.

I'd think it would be more that flags would be at half mast but Zombie Twitter Trump would claim: "Did you see all those flags at half mast? You know everyone actually flew them slightly above half mask. More like 3/4 mast. The first time it was an accident because of the tears of the worker. But everyone one else followed along as a sign of respect and because ...

I'm the best president! You know I was at McCain's funeral and he only got 1/2 mast. True story."
posted by Mitheral at 9:39 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

There have been many events where the administration's response has been so incompetent that it seems like it sets a new standard, but this is really well above and beyond. These press conferences that they keep giving to update Trump's health are basically taken straight from the pages of the "never do this" section of a PR 101 textbook. I feel like you could wake up from a coma, see this going on, and have a pretty good guess as to how the previous 4 years have gone. Current breaking news headlines are that Trump is taking a powerful steroid used for serious lung problems and also may be discharged tomorrow.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:40 AM on October 4, 2020 [20 favorites]

Trump's Dr. said in the press conference that he made misleading statements because they were upbeat, and thus wouldn't "steer" the illness in the wrong direction
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:40 AM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

To be clear, Johnson got it from wandering around a Covid ward, harrumphing loudly and saying 'jolly good' and deliberately shaking hands with people. There was no comforting going on. Just a different flavour of incompetence and hubris.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:42 AM on October 4, 2020 [33 favorites]

Twitter right now is dragging that dr. hard for implying the virus can be faked out by upbeat talk
posted by emjaybee at 9:43 AM on October 4, 2020 [29 favorites]

I feel like I've lost one contact lens. In here and on #staged Twitter, the situation is dire; the standard reports, however, talk about a man who might leave the hospital on Monday. I'm not inclined to believe the WH, and yet I know this place and Twitter can be a hothouse of epistemic closure. It's all headache-inducing.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:44 AM on October 4, 2020 [30 favorites]

Trump's Dr. said in the press conference that he made misleading statements because they were upbeat, and thus wouldn't "steer" the illness in the wrong direction

Everything Trump touches turns into shit.
posted by mumimor at 9:45 AM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

I feel like I've lost one contact lens.

What an excellent way to describe this feeling; thank you.
posted by eirias at 9:47 AM on October 4, 2020 [22 favorites]

There’s a presser going on right now.

Ob.....fu-scate the facts
Come on!
posted by thelonius at 9:47 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

I feel like I've lost one contact lens. In here and on #staged Twitter, the situation is dire; the standard reports, however, talk about a man who might leave the hospital on Monday.

The truth is that we have no clue what's going on. Truthfully, even in a normal administration, we wouldn't know what was going on. In a normal administration, the president's serious illness would be a national security emergency, and it would be a good bet that we wouldn't be getting truthful information about his or her condition. The only reason that this isn't a national security emergency is that Trump is more of a threat to national security when he's healthy than when he's incapacitated. So anyway, we should all assume that we have no idea what's really going on and then proceed accordingly. And that means that if watching the news in real time is going to stress you out, it's ok to tune it out, go for a walk, write some GoTV postcards, or whatever is going to help you calm down.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:48 AM on October 4, 2020 [41 favorites]

WaPo: Little evidence that White House has offered contact tracing, guidance to hundreds potentially exposed
The thing is, they definitely know the names and adresses of all those people, because of security. Stupid, lazy, evil people.
posted by mumimor at 9:48 AM on October 4, 2020 [32 favorites]

Trump's Dr. said in the press conference that he made misleading statements because they were upbeat, and thus wouldn't "steer" the illness in the wrong direction

TIL the Peale Foundation makes physician referrals.

Similarly: President Donald Trump continues to improve in his battle against COVID-19 and could be discharged as early as tomorrow, a White House physician said Sunday.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:48 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

Their statements cover every eventuality between “He’s at death’s door” and “He’ll be back home tomorrow” so that whatever happens, they can claim they were being completely forthcoming about the situation.
posted by disentir at 9:49 AM on October 4, 2020 [20 favorites]

I got an email from my Irish friend last night, with the single word "Chaos!" as the subject line. It turned out to be some mischegas going on with her workplace and parents' health, but for a split second I thought she was commenting on what was going on over here.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:50 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

In hospital terms discharge means someone who leaves the hospital, it does not mean how, to where or even alive.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:52 AM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

Also, the disease is very unpredictable and patients can change course hour by hour so mixed messages are kinda inevitable.
posted by disentir at 9:54 AM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Trump's getting experimental treatments pumped into him, but he wants to leave the hospital as quickly as possible?

[Willy Wonka, staring lazily at the scene] No. Don't. Stop.
posted by delfin at 9:55 AM on October 4, 2020 [27 favorites]

team of doctors started him on dexamethasone, as noted above, and anticipate beginning to discharge him back to the white house as early as tomorrow. 'twas strange to me to hear that dissembling doctor comment that it "wasn't necessarily true" he was "trying to hide something" by lying given that he knows what he intended, so doesn't have to make inferences, and leaving open the possibility that he was, indeed, trying to hide something (as we are all confident he, in fact, was).

meanwhile, clinician griffin, on TWiV 669, recorded friday, noted that typically, in the course of disease, the big risk of what he calls "decompensation" occurs during the second week, but offered a hopeful prognosis overall. (we know more now about treatments administered that we did when the clinician was speaking).
posted by 20 year lurk at 9:56 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

"I will not wish Trump well. I wish for his convincing defeat on November 3."
posted by Stoneshop at 9:58 AM on October 4, 2020 [14 favorites]

Oh shit, I just realized I'm in a John Brunner novel. We're just missing packet-based public transport pods.

Didn't expect a John Brunner mention in this thread. ... On second thought, this is all very Brunner.
posted by neuron at 10:01 AM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

Is there a convenient link to today's press conference? I don't keep up with any mainstream news sites, and Google is a mess of reaction articles.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:01 AM on October 4, 2020

cspan for today's presser
posted by 20 year lurk at 10:03 AM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Nobody should die without a trial of steroids. (On the other hand, Eleanor Roosevelt died of VIP syndrome complicated by a course of steroids, so....)

Discharged as soon as Monday -- out the front door or out the back?
posted by basalganglia at 10:03 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

Assume Trump "recovers" and "wins" the election. Except, y'know, there's this cognitive degradation thing that's increasingly a known thing as a result of surviving C19 infection.

Let me tell you about a little something called the 1980s.
posted by neuron at 10:04 AM on October 4, 2020 [37 favorites]

Similarly: President Donald Trump continues to improve in his battle against COVID-19 and could be discharged as early as tomorrow, a White House physician said Sunday.

They say a lot of things.
posted by mazola at 10:05 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

Twitter right now is dragging that dr. hard for implying the virus can be faked out by upbeat talk
I read this more that they didn't want to alarm Trump in ways that would worsen his health.
posted by cheshyre at 10:05 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

philip-random: They're done in November ... unless they can pull off a miracle.

They don't need a miracle; they have Bill Barr. And a USPS purposefully crippled so that mail-in ballots will either not be delivered or not be counted. And new voting machines in Georgia with a software "glitch" and no oversight. And a PLAGUE that will keep most Democrats/liberal/sane people from going out to wait in a long line with a lot of other people in a poorly ventilated room, while Republicans/conservatives/alternate-universe-dwellers will all be crammed in together voting for Trump. And did I mention that the post office is no longer functional?

This is why we really, really don't want him to die. The situation is already disastrous beyond anything we've ever seen for an election; Trump's death would put us over the top into "no more elections ever" territory.
posted by tzikeh at 10:06 AM on October 4, 2020 [16 favorites]

You forgot the Russian meddling
posted by mumimor at 10:09 AM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

After seeing how many people have caught Tha’ Rona in White House and at that Barrett event, I was reminded of a few articles I’ve seen on the difference between “R” and “K”:

“K is the statistical value that tells us how much variation there is in that distribution.”

But unlike R, K numbers are not intuitive. “The general rule is that the smaller the K value is, the more transmission comes from a smaller number of infectious people,” said Kucharski.

“Once K is above about five or 10 it tells you most people are generating pretty similar numbers [of secondary cases], you are not getting these super-spreading events. Once K is below one, you have got the potential for super-spreading.”

The K value for COVID19 appears to be between .5 and 1.

Choosing to reject masks and social distancing probably does not help.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:10 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

Going back to work immediately after a life-threatening disease. Another move as smart as not using masks.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:16 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

Going back to work immediately after a life-threatening disease.

Well at least he has SOMETHING in common with poor, suffering Americans now.

Oh wait, never mind. I forgot, those people never actually got to STOP working while they were coping with their life-threatening diseases.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:20 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

People in my social circle who have had COVID-19 report that it's very common to briefly feel better before things get worse. This probably ain't over just yet.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:20 AM on October 4, 2020 [13 favorites]

I would venture that lying in bed and watching TV at the white house is pretty much the same level of effort as doing the same thing in the hospital. He barely leaves the residence as it is.
posted by mochapickle at 10:21 AM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

I am ready to believe that the universe is against us and Trump is doing great and going to be discharged - but why isn't he tweeting? He loves tweeting, he has tons of flunkies around to fetch or repair his phone if needed, Twitter would never lock him out, so where are the tweets? If he's "working" then it's like any other day (ie, he's not working) and he has lots of time to tweet. And you'd think he'd want to reassure/rile up the base.
posted by Frowner at 10:22 AM on October 4, 2020 [24 favorites]

basalganglia: "Discharged as soon as Monday -- out the front door or out the back?"

It's a font question really, Trebuchet or Comic Sans?
posted by chavenet at 10:23 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

Yeah, Frowner, there's no way he wouldn't be on that phone non-stop unless he's actually so incapacitated he's unable to use it.
posted by essexjan at 10:24 AM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Of greater concern. dexamethasone has some serious pyschiatric side effects, both emotional and cognitive.
We're talking mood swings, mania, irritability, confusion, delusions, and even delerium.
These clearly make him incapable of carrying out the duties of his office.

If an actual crisis occurs, who is in charge right now? (Yes, I've heard the joke answer: "Putin, same as always")
We are past time for the 25th Amendment to be invoked - at least temporarily, until Trump is discharged (one way or the other).

Of course, the reasons they haven't done so are purely political: they need Pence in the Senate to break tie votes, especially now that several Republican Senators are also out sick.
posted by cheshyre at 10:25 AM on October 4, 2020 [16 favorites]

posted upthread: 72% of Americans think Trump did not take appropriate virus precautions, according to a new ABC/Ipsos poll [...] Eighty-one percent are either very or somewhat concerned about contracting COVID-19, compared to 72% two weeks ago. The percentage of "very concerned" respondents rose 8 percentage points, from 29% to 37%. The overall jump can be almost entirely attributed to Republicans, whose net concern increased 18 points (52% to 70%), and independents, whose concern increased 13 points (69% to 82%). Democrats held steady at 86%.”

Way at the bottom of the article:
"This ABC News/Ipsos poll was conducted by Ipsos Public Affairs‘ KnowledgePanel® Oct. 2 to 3, 2020, in English and Spanish, among a random national sample of 506 adults. Results have a margin of sampling error of 5.0 points, including the design effect. Partisan divisions are 30%-25%-37%, Democrats-Republicans-independents.

506 people willing to answer questions for this poll, and over a third of them are "Independents."
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:26 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

Let me tell you about a little something called the 1980s.

Hard to imagine Melania being quite as gently supportive as Nancy Reagan was in helping conceal her own husband's dementia. First time Trump looks helplessly to her for help, the whispered prompt will be "I revoke the pre-nup".
posted by Paul Slade at 10:28 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

I agree with Frowner: the most honest indicator that Trump's illness is quite serious is that he's not tweeting, and the most honest indicator that he's recovering will be when he resumes. Everything else is subject to spin.
posted by biogeo at 10:28 AM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

506 people willing to answer questions for this poll, and over a third of them are "Independents."

Independents have been the largest group (in terms of self-identification) for a long time in the U.S. These numbers are not out of the norm.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 10:32 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

506 people willing to answer questions for this poll, and over a third of them are "Independents."

I think they mean unaffiliated. It’s super common to not choose an affiliation. A glance at the voter records on my street shows roughly half of us as unaffiliated. And I’m here in the red city in colorado.
posted by mochapickle at 10:32 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

I've never found Trump more Presidential than in his last few days of mostly media silence in a self-inflicted but still sort of basic-human-empathy-provoking situation, to the point where I wonder if the best thing for him to do to win over Republican voters who've turned away from him is to do nothing, and let people's vestigial shreds of respect for the office do the work of convincing them instead. His base and dyed-in-the-wool Rs will vote for him whatever. Admittedly this is no different from them putting up a sack of potatoes as a candidate, which might also be a better strategy.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:33 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

506 people willing to answer questions for this poll, and over a third of them are "Independents."

Over a third of Americans identify as politically independent, for what it's worth. Most of them aren't swing voters: they prefer not to identify with a party but generally vote for one party or the other. But that's a broadly representative sample of how the electorate identifies politically.

Sampling is a thing. A survey of 506 voters isn't necessarily a bad survey.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:33 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

or how about contractors descending on Mar a Largo to sue Trump
Man accused of trying to spread coronavirus at Michigan grocery store could face domestic terrorism charge
posted by robbyrobs at 10:34 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

I can't tell if it was already posted in this long thread, so here's a link to Zeynep Tufekci's long article in The Atlantic on R0 and k and different ways we can and maybe should be focusing our contact tracing: This Overlooked Variable Is the Key to the Pandemic. It’s not R.
posted by PhineasGage at 10:35 AM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

Anyone keeping an eye on Mar-a-Lago? I’d love to know if there’s been anything like a flurry of contractors descending on the place, to maybe convert a bunch of rooms into a COVID-specific mini-hospital?

I saw a report that Pence was heading there, which seemed weird to me. Why would the vice-president go to the president's private residence while both the president and his wife are isolated? America is strange.
posted by mumimor at 10:36 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

Of greater concern. dexamethasone has some serious pyschiatric side effects, both emotional and cognitive.

I unfortunately have experience with dex and the mania it causes is no fun. You can go from a lethargic near-death state to manic behavior and a voracious appetite in a matter of hours. Sleep is impossible without another drug to knock you out. If he’s indeed on dex that’s not a good sign at all and if you thought his behavior was bizarre before you ain’t seen nothing yet.
posted by photoslob at 10:36 AM on October 4, 2020 [42 favorites]

Trump Treated With Steroids But May Be Discharged Monday
posted by robbyrobs at 10:38 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

I find the lack of twitter activity fairly persuasive but at the same time, if he really is worse than they are letting on, this "out by Monday" thing is spiraling way out of control for them because the way it's being covered has left them in a position where if he isn't out by Monday, the obvious conclusion is that he's worse than they hoped, which opens up a whole can of worms for them. It's such a short term lie that it's perfectly in character but also hard to credit without proof. I guess we'll find out soon enough, though. They'll either start to backpedal and talk about maybe Tuesday, actually, or something will have to happen.
posted by feloniousmonk at 10:38 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

Anyone know how long dexamethasone is usually prescribed in a situation like this?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 10:38 AM on October 4, 2020

Following on: Here are some links about political independents from Pew and Gallup:

Pew (2019) Six Facts About U.S. Political Independents: Includes historical tracking from 1994 (~33%) to 2018 (~38%).

Gallup (2020) On Party Affiliation: Tracks party affiliation numbers in polls from 2004 to now. In Aug - Sept, Gallup found 40% of those surveyed identified as independent.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 10:40 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

I am having trouble finding a poll I read about that so-called gain in lead points Biden got after the debate? My understanding is that while a clear majority of both Democrats and Republicans believed Biden "won" the debate, that did not change anyone's mind about who they were going to vote for; those numbers didn't budge. I want to see if there is a follow-up on the voting choice now that this whole COVID-19 thing has happened. Can anyone help me out?
posted by tzikeh at 10:40 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

Anyone know how long dexamethasone is usually prescribed in a situation like this?

In similar infectious conditions (croup, asthma) dexamethasone is usually given as a single dose. Don't know what is considered standard of care for COVID right now because the standards are so up in the air, and also I work in pediatrics and *knock wood* our hospital has had no serious cases yet.

ETA: looks like some of the studies recommend a daily low dose for 7-10 days or until hospital discharge.
posted by saturday_morning at 10:45 AM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Overlooked Variable Is the Key to the Pandemic. It’s not R.

Man that is an aggravating click-baity headline (and I love Zeyneps' work) which looks like it was different in an early draft. Anyhow, she is talking about k, the measure if dispersion, or "overdispersion"

Multiple studies from the beginning have suggested that as few as 10 to 20 percent of infected people may be responsible for as much as 80 to 90 percent of transmission, and that many people barely transmit it.

This highly skewed, imbalanced distribution means that an early run of bad luck with a few super-spreading events, or clusters, can produce dramatically different outcomes even for otherwise similar countries.

posted by jessamyn at 10:45 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

speaking of dissembling, or maybe trying not to, this bit was also interesting: @ 8:22 on cspan vid

q (paraphrased): why isn't he he wearing a mask in the photos?

conley: well, the- the president, uh, wears a mask anytime he's, he's around us and we're all wearing our uh n-95's uh full ppe. um. he's- he's the patient and when we can- uh, when he'll move out in- uh into public when we move him about out and around other people that aren't in full ppe, i assure you he'll- uh, as long as he's uh still under my care uh we'll talk about him wearing a mask.

posted by 20 year lurk at 10:47 AM on October 4, 2020 [23 favorites]

My problem with Zeyneps' article is it's SO long that not enough people will read and absorb the whole thing. The important insights in that article need to be widely disseminated in much shorter, crisper terms if she hopes to change the public conversation.
posted by PhineasGage at 10:49 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

team of doctors started him on dexamethasone
Maybe. And maybe he had the Rejuvetastic or whatever the antibody cocktail thing is called. Or maybe they gave him one of those things and a course of obecalp. Or neither of those things and two courses of obecalp.

It's obvious from what happened to Michael Jackson that being too rich is very bad for your health. For sure some of Trump's medical care since we've been watching has looked dicey, but I don't think now that he's in a crisis an entire team of doctors is going to stand around and let him tantrum himself into dying. I think they'll tell him whatever he wants to hear and still do whatever they can to keep him breathing. So I seriously doubt he got the antibody cocktail and the steroids at the same time, given that's counterproductive and could kill him. They're not going to say what they're actually doing, they'll say they're doing whatever cockamamie thing he told them he wanted them to do. They will actually do whatever is the current state of the science.

and anticipate beginning to discharge him back to the white house as early as tomorrow.
Sure, in the same way they heartily seconded his claim yesterday that he felt like he could walk out of there today.

'twas strange to me to hear that dissembling doctor comment that it "wasn't necessarily true" he was "trying to hide something" by lying given that he knows what he intended, so doesn't have to make inferences, and leaving open the possibility that he was, indeed, trying to hide something (as we are all confident he, in fact, was).
Now as always, anybody on Trump's team talking about Trump in front of a camera is speaking for an audience of one whispy haired self-entitled elderly Fauntleroy. He may be too sick to tweet or stand up in a spray-tan booth, but Trump's not too sick to watch TV. Everything they say is disturbingly demented sounding and has that N.V.Peale ring to it because everything they say is a recitation of whatever he Sharpied out for them to say.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:49 AM on October 4, 2020 [12 favorites]

Pew (2019) Six Facts About U.S. Political Independents: Includes historical tracking from 1994 (~33%) to 2018 (~38%).

As someone who would identify as independent because I feel strongly that the Democratic party is too cowed by their rich donors to be able to really represent me, I gotta say those facts are pretty right on. I would never, ever vote Republican, but I'll suck it up and vote for Democrats to make sure shit doesn't hit the fan.

I would also never vote Independent because I am in a very, very blue state, and running with an (I) next to your name is how most Republicans actually get into office in this state. They can't actually say they are Republicans, but if they run with the exact same platform and claim "Independent" suddenly they're a shoe-in.

Finally, because I'm in a deep, deep blue state, that means that if I actually disagree largely with a Democratic Presidential candidate, my vote is effectively meaningless thanks to the Electoral College, so if I really wanted to vote third party, I could if I wanted to, because... my vote is effectively meaningless.

God damn it we need to get rid of the Electoral College once and for all.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:54 AM on October 4, 2020 [13 favorites]

Anyone know how long dexamethasone is usually prescribed in a situation like this?

I was prescribed it for several days but I don’t remember the dosage. It’s not something you want to be on for long and I assume it’s discontinued once doctors see the results they’re looking for. It’s side effects are cumulative and the longer you’re on it, the more manic you become.
posted by photoslob at 10:54 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

Admittedly this is no different from them putting up a sack of potatoes as a candidate, which might also be a better strategy.

Less likely to interrupt, too.
posted by C. K. Dexter Haven at 10:54 AM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

i think i understand, primarily from TWiVs, that, whereas the regeneron purports to provide an artificial immune response (perhaps kickstarting an endemic immune response..?), the steroids are administered to suppress the overabundant immune response so famous a complicating this disease. so it strikes this non-immunologist as odd they'd both be administered so close together, and that this is pretty early in the course of disease for the steroid. happy to be corrected. not like it matters, b/c about what information concerning the president's condition and treatment can we have confidence?

on preview: i am also registered as unaffiliated and also in a strongly democratic state. but i have voted for a different party's candidate.
posted by 20 year lurk at 10:57 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

Hey, I don't know who needs to hear this right now but I have been occasionally hearing a reluctance to extend compassion or well-wishes to Trump and other Republicans right now and a subsequent guilt about that: that's fine! It is okay not to feel bad for them. It is okay to wish harm on them. Don't feel bad about that for one single second. These are people who are pretty directly responsible for the deaths of over 200,000 people and lifelong negative health impacts on many more people in a country that not only lacks basic health services but has been dismantling what it does have since the pandemic.

The "well-wishes" and "speedy recovery" that so many liberals have been tripping over themselves to awkwardly express is a grotesquely inappropriate response and makes me feel literally nauseous to see. I know we are supposed to maintain a pretense of false, unidirectional "respect" and "decorum," but really, these people deserved this. The appropriate response is not sympathy for Trump but underlining how many people have suffered and/or died because of his willful, malicious mismanagement and direct sabotage of the national pandemic response. This is a man who knowingly infected his own supporters, who very likely tried to infect his chief political rival, and a party of people with the same attitude. This is a party who stole PPE during a worldwide shortage so they could profit directly. This is a man who tried to privately buy Germany's vaccine. Who has effectively dismantled the CDC, who cut funding to pandemic research and response, who refuses to extend federal aid to states he considers political enemies. This is the party who has strongly encouraged its supporters to refuse wearing masks and "protest" basic safety precautions so as not to disrupt their financial gains. No one had this coming but them.
posted by Lonnrot at 10:59 AM on October 4, 2020 [122 favorites]

Why would the vice-president go to the president's private residence while both the president and his wife are isolated?

To pick up the mail, drop off the dry cleaning, and feed the cat?

Just kidding. We know there's no cat.
posted by jackbishop at 11:12 AM on October 4, 2020 [17 favorites]

Technically he could be out of the hospital by tomorrow if he dies.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:12 AM on October 4, 2020 [13 favorites]

The appropriate response is not sympathy for Trump but underlining how many people have suffered and/or died because of his willful, malicious mismanagement and direct sabotage of the national pandemic response.

Many of you know that I've been living with end stage renal for five years now. It is awful. I despise DJT and those who maintain his power, but having gone through nearly five years of life support on dialysis, the constant needles, and the treatments, and the surgeries, and the meds, and the uncertainty, and watching my fellow patients die, and JUST ALL OF IT, I simply cannot wish even the worst person anything but their health.

I genuinely and sincerely want him to recover. I want the election to proceed without interruption. I want him to lose, and I want him to face justice through due process, and I want him to be in sound mind and body as the gavel falls and they zip him into an orange jumpsuit.

It's entirely appropriate for people to feel sympathy, to appreciate the karmic irony, to actively wish harm, or to simply have mixed feelings about the situation. People are going to feel what they feel, and that is totally okay. I'm going to feel whatever I'm going to feel about this, too. I fully believe Obama and Biden are being authentic when they extend their prayers and thoughts of grace to this horrible man.

But to suggest that a sympathetic response by a liberal is purely "a pretense of false, unidirectional respect and decorum" instead of a real, genuine emotional response tells me a lot more about you specifically than it does about myself and the liberal response in general.
posted by mochapickle at 11:18 AM on October 4, 2020 [141 favorites]

if he really is worse than they are letting on, this "out by Monday" thing is spiraling way out of control for them because the way it's being covered has left them in a position where if he isn't out by Monday, the obvious conclusion is that he's worse than they hoped, which opens up a whole can of worms for them.

They just have to keep the positive story going until the Monday stock bell where the wealthy republicans can pump and dump (those that weren’t in the higher levels and warned on Friday and dumped before his announcement after the markets had closed).

The lack of tweets is concerning, but the fact no one in his inner circle has pretended to be him and tweet out *something* in his voice makes me think those in the inner circle are hopeful he will recover and fear consequences from Trump for pretending to be him.
posted by saucysault at 11:18 AM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

Eighty-one percent are either very or somewhat concerned about contracting COVID-19, compared to 72% two weeks ago. The percentage of "very concerned" respondents rose 8 percentage points, from 29% to 37%. The overall jump can be almost entirely attributed to Republicans, whose net concern increased 18 points (52% to 70%), and independents, whose concern increased 13 points (69% to 82%). Democrats held steady at 86%.”
I wonder how this affects the voter suppression efforts. If they were counting on Republicans to physically turn up to polling stations, but they're now suddenly scared and haven't organised postal ballots, the whole thing could backfire.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:21 AM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

They just have to keep the positive story going until the Monday stock bell where the wealthy republicans can pump and dump

It seems to me that "out by Monday" is most likely because they're on TV, and I'm certain that he's watching it. They're truly are playing to an audience of one, now. It is through that lens that I will take any pronouncements.
posted by tclark at 11:23 AM on October 4, 2020 [13 favorites]

They just have to keep the positive story going until the Monday stock bell where the wealthy republicans can pump and dump (those that weren’t in the higher levels and warned on Friday and dumped before his announcement after the markets had closed).

True, he only 'admitted' to being really sick after the bell rang.

Also there is the chance, however one feels about it, that he has a 'mild' case. Despite the fact that he is old and obese and certainly no kind of sporty-person. Or, he is let out Monday, sits down at his desk (without a mask, natch) and six hours later or thirty hours later or 72 hours later or a week later starts to feel poorly and just crashes.

He clearly doesn't want to be interrupted by this hoax-democrat-virus and resents it but, the virus and his body don't care and this will bring him low or - meh 'virus-shmirus' which will fucking suck.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:25 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

I dunno, if he was able to watch TV, I would think he would be tweeting too.

Unless they gave him a phone with a fake Twitter and he is furiously tweeting to bots who praise him. Which, if they did, would be genius. Tweets on dex would probably not be very presidential.
posted by saucysault at 11:27 AM on October 4, 2020 [12 favorites]

Two members of the White House residence staff tested positive for the coronavirus roughly three weeks ago, according to two people familiar with the diagnoses. (NYT)

"The people who tested positive were not employees who come in direct contact with the president and the first lady, one of the people familiar with the diagnoses said. But the positive results again raise questions about how and when President Trump may have been exposed to the virus."
posted by tzikeh at 11:30 AM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

Tweets on dex would probably not be very presidential.

Nothing new there.
posted by Stoneshop at 11:30 AM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

Honestly, when they doc said they were trying to be "upbeat" I read it as they didn't want to say anything negative that would upset Trump or send him into a tantrum.

Having been hospitalized in the last few years and being very weak and feeling like hell I can tell you idly watching TV takes a LOT less effort than picking up a phone and choosing to read and write.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:32 AM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

He is hard @ work writing his name w/a sharpie on a blank piece of paper
They photoshop’d in a Pres. binder (& the stack of file folders on the lft)but forgot 2 photoshop out the orig reflection from the hand...which would not B there w/the binder blocking it
#trumpIsAFraud
posted by robbyrobs at 11:33 AM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

Re: well wishes for a speedy recovery — “Civility and decorum is the hill Republicans demand other people die on.”
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:35 AM on October 4, 2020 [23 favorites]

I was on dex for several months in 2016/2017 and have been on it since February of this year for cancer. There are currently no plans to take me off of it, like, ever. Admittedly, it's a low dose in my case, but it makes my feet swell and makes it hard to sleep on the days I take it. That's it. It doesn't make me manic. It doesn't cause cognitive problems for me. It doesn't make me angry. I'm probably not the only person here who's on it, so can we quit acting like everyone who takes it is turned into a raging lunatic?
posted by FencingGal at 11:46 AM on October 4, 2020 [56 favorites]

Re: the photo reflection stuff: the reflections are fine. That's how light works. Think of any picture of mountains reflected in a lake. You still see the mountains, even though the land is in the way. You can try it out right now with a mirror on a table.
posted by lauranesson at 11:47 AM on October 4, 2020 [16 favorites]

forgot 2 photoshop out the orig reflection from the hand...which would not B there w/the binder blocking it

Yes it would, and claiming it wouldn't does your credibility no good, O random Tweeter. Your heart's in the right place but your grasp of optics (the physics kind, not the PR kind) could use a little work.
posted by flabdablet at 11:48 AM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

Kevin Drum on what he calls "The Evil Dex."

Edit: If you search his archives he has many posts about his experience with it.
posted by Max Power at 11:50 AM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Yeah, people pushing Tablegate seem to be dredging the bottom of the conspiracy barrel.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:50 AM on October 4, 2020 [14 favorites]

Agreed, FencingGal. I prescribe dexamethasone and other steroids frequently and the effects vary considerably from patient to patient. Certainly, it can exacerbate underlying mental health issues and psychiatric diagnoses, even to the point of frank psychosis. But many/most patients can’t even tell they’ve taken anything (except that almost all of my older patients love the fact that they can complete day-to-day tasks without that nagging knee/back/shoulder pain that’s been lingering for the last decade).
posted by Fritzle at 11:51 AM on October 4, 2020 [16 favorites]

Think of any picture of mountains reflected in a lake

To be fair, mountains weren't the first thing that sprang to my mind either when looking at Trump's hands.
posted by flabdablet at 11:53 AM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

“Civility and decorum is the hill Republicans demand other people die on.”

I'm perfectly content to be civil and decorous while Trump dies.

Or even in my gentlemanly wish that he be visited by some Dickensian spirit of empathy bearing most or all of the long haul effects many who've survived are living with. May he also survive as they have and have another decade of life with which he can reckon with choice and consequence. However likely it is that he will not choose to make such a reckoning, those who like him see the world in terms of strength and weakness will.
posted by wildblueyonder at 11:56 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

The Atlantic's Dr. James Hamblin: "I’m hesitant to read into Trump‘s medications anything about the severity of his disease. Dexamethasone is only recommended for serious cases. But Trump has been known to go against scientific evidence and guidelines. "
posted by PhineasGage at 11:56 AM on October 4, 2020 [16 favorites]

Yeah, people pushing Tablegate seem to be dredging the bottom of the conspiracy barrel.

Compared to the blurry expanded red-circle "Trump is hiding an oxygen bottle in this picture!" tinfoil hat stuff I saw about his helicopter walk, Tablegate is downright dignified.

It's clear they clowned up a photo op. Nothing more needs to be said about it than that.

I feel like the real problem here isn't even that the president* is sick. The biggest problem is the four years of lies and scams that have taught everyone not to believe anything this White House says. We have rules and processes and people for how something like this is supposed to be handled, but we can't count on these jerks following any of them.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:59 AM on October 4, 2020 [22 favorites]

could be discharged as early as tomorrow

And complete his 5-day course of remdesivir injections at the White House, with only intermittent medical observation? I doubt it.

Dexamethasone is only recommended for serious cases. But Trump has been known to go against scientific evidence and guidelines.

Is that a statement that Trump's doctors are willing to ignore what's actually best for the patient and just give him what he wants, instead of what the diagnosis leads them to believe he needs? I mean, I don't think that's impossible, but I'd love for that to be spelled out so his doctors have to directly say, "Of course we aren't giving him whatever he wants; that would be malpractice."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:02 PM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

I think it's just someone badly trying to create reflections using Photoshop.

There is nothing wrong with the reflections in that picture, and if you honestly believe there is, I'm going to need you to turn in your Reality-Based Community membership card.
posted by flabdablet at 12:05 PM on October 4, 2020 [15 favorites]

Please stop with the conspiracy theorizing and baseless speculation.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 12:07 PM on October 4, 2020 [22 favorites]

The conspiracy barrel has a bottom?!?
posted by piyushnz at 12:07 PM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

Cherished peeps, it's not that the people polled describe themselves as independent, it's that "Though about four-in-ten Americans call themselves 'independents,' few are truly independent." (And a random sampling of about 500 is not representative of a country of more than 330 million people. But I know this is very much my own issue with teeny opinion polls underpinning attention-grabbing, trend-proclaiming headlines, and I apologize for the derail.)

Trump COVID-19 treatment: President had stakes in Regeneron and Gilead, makers of antibody cocktail, Remdesivir (USA Today) but appears to have divested 2-ish years ago (the investments are on disclosure forms filed in April 2017, and subsequent forms don't list them). "Trump’s latest financial disclosure form does report his family trusts' investments in a Dodge & Cox mutual fund. A New York Times article in April said the fund’s largest holding is thought to be in Sanofi, the pharmaceutical firm that is one of the major producers of hydroxychloroquine."
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:07 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

but teh pixels!!1!
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:07 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

People have a bad grasp on optics outside of very straightforward situations. Reflections do not behave in a way that is intuitive to the idea of occlusion based on straight line of sight, which is what our brains are more or less wired for. Those are normal, stupid posed photos. Binders aren't hard to set on a table. People need to let the reflections thing fuckin' rest.
posted by cortex at 12:08 PM on October 4, 2020 [28 favorites]

Someone on Twitter reminded me of J.G. Ballard's The Secret History of World War III, from 1988:

From then on the American public was treated to a continuous stream of information on the President’s health. Successive newscasts throughout the day would carry updates on the side-effects of a slight chill or the circulatory benefits of a dip in the White House pool. I well remember watching the news on Christmas Eve as my wife prepared our evening meal, and noticing that details of the President’s health occupied five of the six leading news items.

tldr - WW3 breaks out but everyone is so obsessed with the US president's health they don't notice.

Completely unconnected: Why Armenia and Azerbaijan are at the brink of war
posted by thatwhichfalls at 12:11 PM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

WHO's Q&A about dexamethasone and COVID:
Dexamethasone is generally safe. It presents a favourable benefit-risk profile, particularly in patients with severe forms of pneumonia, while the benefit is less prominent in patients with non-severe pneumonia. As the treatment is short, even at high doses, corticosteroids are not associated with serious side effects. Potentially higher blood glucose levels (hyperglycaemia) are temporary.

Prolonged use (I.e., used for more than two weeks) may be associated with adverse events such as glaucoma, cataract, fluid retention, hypertension, psychological effects (e.g., mood swings, memory issues, confusion or irritation), weight gain, or increased risk of infections and osteoporosis.

To reiterate: All these adverse events are not associated with short term use (with the exception of hyperglycaemia that can worsen diabetes).

[...]

According to preliminary findings shared with WHO (and now available as a preprint), for patients on ventilators, the treatment was shown to reduce mortality by about one third, and for patients requiring only oxygen, mortality was cut by about one fifth.

So, some of the comments about its side effects seem inaccurate. There is a lot of medical speculation and misinformation in this thread - could folks be sure to cite their sources (i.e. a medical degree or a reputable website)?
posted by Emily's Fist at 12:12 PM on October 4, 2020 [20 favorites]

I embrace everyone feeling however they feel, but I personally strive to emulate political activists I admire - people like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Rev. William Barber, Congressman John Lewis. They all espoused love for even the worst oppressors, and provided an example, all their lives, of how they could love both the oppressed and the oppressors, with that love manifesting in unyielding work to end the oppression and build a better world with justice and good lives for the oppressed.

The appropriate response is not sympathy for Trump but underlining how many people have suffered and/or died because of his willful, malicious mismanagement and direct sabotage of the national pandemic response.

It is entirely possible to express both sympathy for both Trumps and underline how many people have suffered and died because of his willful, malicious mismanagement. Speaker Nancy Pelosi did just that 36 hours ago in her regular email update:

Today, our thoughts and prayers are with the President and First Lady for a swift and full recovery. This is a sad day for our country, knowing that more than 7 million American families have faced the same worry after their loved one has been infected, and more than 209,000 have died.

Last night, House Democrats passed an updated Heroes Act to meet the health and economic needs of the American people during this crisis.

People feel what they feel. In my experience, most of the most effective justice activists in the country, throughout its history, have chosen some form of love and sympathy for their oppressors, even while doing their utmost to defeat their oppression. To me, that's worth emulating, or at least examining honestly.
posted by kristi at 12:19 PM on October 4, 2020 [24 favorites]

...being too rich is very bad for your health.

VIP medicine (as related to VIP syndrome).
posted by cenoxo at 12:22 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Whatever the site's overall reputation, /r/COVID19 on Reddit sticks strictly to science, and has posted most of the major covid papers and academic reports since this all started. For anyone who wants more technical details, a search there for Dexamethasone has most of the published research over the last few months, though not necessarily the more informal reports from hospitals and the like.
posted by chortly at 12:23 PM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

Is that a statement that Trump's doctors are willing to ignore what's actually best for the patient and just give him what he wants, instead of what the diagnosis leads them to believe he needs? I mean, I don't think that's impossible, but I'd love for that to be spelled out so his doctors have to directly say, "Of course we aren't giving him whatever he wants; that would be malpractice."

"Well, Mr President sir, if you insist on a bleach injection ..."
posted by essexjan at 12:23 PM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

My understanding is the disease comes in two phases:

First there's the infection, and you're given remdesivir for that (it works best when taken within a first couple of days after exposure? first symptoms?). It basically helps your immune system fight the virus. It does not help anymore when you've gotten to:

The second stage, when you actually don't have a lot of virus anymore (so an antiviral won't help anymore) because your immune system eliminated most of the virus. You reach this stage if your immune system mounted too big an attack, and is now hurting you. This is what kills people -- their own immune system not calming down. The dexamethasone calms down your immune system, and that's why it's only given in severe cases, because by the time you've gotten to the severe part it's no longer the virus but your immune system that is causing problems.

Considering these drugs have two very different modes of actions and are given at two very different stages of the disease, seems weird to give them so close. But I'm not a doctor. My source is TWIV a podcast hosted by virologists and immunologists, with a weekly clinical update from a pulmonary physician who works with covid patients.
posted by antinomia at 12:24 PM on October 4, 2020 [10 favorites]

Can anyone help me understand the "likely voter" polls since Trump's diagnosis/hospitalization? Why would any poll of "likely" voters take a national sample when we know the popular vote means nothing? Shouldn't all pundits/news outlets be concentrating on how his COVID-19 has affected the likely voters in the five swing states that will decide the election (supposing that we actually have an election at all, let alone a fair one)?

My understanding is that contracting this disease has changed absolutely nothing about the number of people who will vote for Trump in Iowa, Ohio, N.C., etc. (I'm not including Florida because even if Biden does get the most votes there we know the state is going to Trump).
posted by tzikeh at 12:28 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

So the comments about it being a super nasty last-ditch-use drug seem inaccurate. There is a lot of medical speculation in this thread - could folks be sure to cite their sources (i.e. a medical degree or a reputable website)?

Yeah, to clarify from above, when I work in the ER in the winter I prescribe dexamethasone to small children probably every shift, and at much higher per-kilogram doses. You wouldn't take it for fun, but there's a reason it's one of the most-used drugs in our hospital. Its safety profile is very reasonable for the effect you get.

Any time you give a steroid at immune-suppressive doses to treat or prevent complications of an infectious disease, you're in a balancing act where you're trying to tamp down a hyperactive immune response while also not completely wiping out your body's ability to fight off the primary infection. Right now the balance of evidence is that steroids in the absence of severe COVID disease probably harm more than they help, but it wouldn't be at all surprising if we got more data that moved the needle one way or the other. As an example, the controversy over whether (and which) patients with bacterial meningitis should get steroids has been raging for far longer than I've been in practice.

Can anyone help me understand the "likely voter" polls since Trump's diagnosis/hospitalization?

There haven't been enough of them. We'll know in a week.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:29 PM on October 4, 2020 [10 favorites]

FencingGal and Fritzle are correct in that dexamethasone affects everyone differently. I'm a recovering leukemia patient who's been through several rounds of dex because of chemotherapy. Currently, I'm on a dex mouth rinse for mouth sores because of graft versus host disease and it doesn't affect me in any way other than providing relief.

My first experience with dexamethasone was due to my first round of chemo nearly killing me. I went six days without eating and my oncologist prescribed a 5 (or maybe 7) day course to get me eating again. It was either that or a feeding tube. By about day three I was bouncing off the walls and extremely manic with terrible insomnia. Once I recovered, I did 3 rounds of outpatient chemo for a week with 3-4 weeks off in between and once again was prescribed dex which made me totally manic again. I would pace around the room and cry for no reason. I was in hell. During my third round of chemo after I relapsed I begged the doctors to not prescribe dex because of the side effects.

I have no idea how dexamethasone will affect the president but I mention my side effects because it's pretty well documented manic behavior happens as well as a slew of other bad stuff.
posted by photoslob at 12:33 PM on October 4, 2020 [12 favorites]

Why would any poll of "likely" voters take a national sample when we know the popular vote means nothing?

Because it doesn't mean nothing. It picks up trendlines which are generally also reflected in swing states; sometimes even magnified. It also can be used as a proxy for the swing states. If Biden wins the popular vote by 10 points he will not lose the electoral college. On the contrary he'll get 400 or 450 EV. If he wins the popular vote by 1 point he probably loses the election in the electoral college. And if he wins the popular vote by 3 points it's a nail biter.

"Can't draw ironclad definitive conclusions if the national polls are in the 2-6 range" isn't the same as "means nothing".
posted by Justinian at 12:34 PM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

Here's what I think: Trump probably isn't doing so hot, since he's neither tweeting nor dictating tweets. He would want to respond to all the commentary on his health; if he's not doing that, at minimum he is fatigued enough that he is obeying his doctors. At maximum he's unconscious.

His people from the White House are frantic and desperate to convey an optimistic message. Their big hope right now is to make things seem "normal" and cross their fingers that Trump gets better quickly. That may be why Trump is getting all the treatments at once - it may not even be him, it may be his people because they're terrified that he's going to be seriously incapacitated or die, and because they are in shock that Magic Donald could actually get sick. (My bet is that they didn't respond to Cain's death because Cain was Black, and because they are white supremacists and deeply stupid they believe that white people can't get really sick from it.)

If nothing else, we should all imagine every single Trump handler just sweating bullets, pacing up and down, tearing their hair while mumbling "oh shit oh shit oh shit".

Trump may in fact be better tomorrow, who knows, but it won't be because there's an obvious disease course now.
posted by Frowner at 12:36 PM on October 4, 2020 [17 favorites]

Now on dexamethasone as per the news conference taking place right now. That's not a good sign—it's a very dirty drug with a lot of nasty side effects and definitely not something that you give as a precaution.

Anecdote: I have lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. Inflammation is a big problem for me. Plaquenil became impossible to get after 45 hyped hydrox as a cure for the covids. My doctor and I discussed various options, and he said that he would dismiss dexamathasone out of hand for me, given the known, very high percentage of bad, bad side effects. He said that he thought it was a drug that should only be administered in a health care setting when nothing else worked.

I am not a medical doctor. I don't understand pharmacology. But if 45 is on a drug that high up the scale of anti-inflammatory, especially given the volumes of drugs that cannot be used at the same time, things are not going well for him.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:50 PM on October 4, 2020 [10 favorites]

Is Trump Dead?
posted by cazoo at 12:57 PM on October 4, 2020 [15 favorites]

All presidents, current and former, get a state funeral.

Not all of them. John Tyler did not have one. Of course, when he died he had recently won election to the Confederate House of Representatives, so I guess there is precedent for not honouring a former president who was actively working against the country at the time of his death.

Hrm.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:01 PM on October 4, 2020 [18 favorites]

If Trump dies of VIP Syndrome the universe may implode from the excess of irony.
posted by benzenedream at 1:02 PM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

Behind the eight ball
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:02 PM on October 4, 2020

Brandon Blatcher: "FYI to any aspiring creators, I am interested in this comic/tv/movie."

Virus Clans: A Story of Evolution: by Michael Kanaly
posted by Kevin Street at 1:06 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

Behind the eight ball

magic8Ball.listofanswers = ["Not Yet.", "Try Harder.", "Be Patient.", "Sadly Not.", "On the inside, yes.", "There's still time."];

posted by flabdablet at 1:07 PM on October 4, 2020 [16 favorites]

His people from the White House are frantic and desperate to convey an optimistic message.

Just to expand on this: because Trump involves everyone he engages with in criminal or at least borderline criminal behaviour, they are frantic and desperate for their own sakes, not Trump's. When Trump is out, they are open to prosecution. The kids will lose the cash. All the political staff and the cabinet will lose their jobs, obviously, but they will also be exposed as the liars, fraudsters and grifters they have become. They already knew this is likely to happen in November, but they could at least try to handle that with voter suppression. Trump very sick or dead is harder to deal with. Pence can't do what Trump does.
posted by mumimor at 1:12 PM on October 4, 2020 [17 favorites]

As President, Pence would have no incentive I can imagine to pardon anyone else who had been part of the Trump Administration.
posted by Epixonti at 1:15 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Can anyone help me understand the "likely voter" polls since Trump's diagnosis/hospitalization? Why would any poll of "likely" voters take a national sample when we know the popular vote means nothing?

The biggest reason that they're doing national likely voter polls is that they aren't trying to predict the election outcome. They're trying to write a story about how voters feel.

Shouldn't all pundits/news outlets be concentrating on how his COVID-19 has affected the likely voters in the five swing states that will decide the election

Maybe, sort of, if their goal was to accurately forecast the election. But it isn't; their goals are much more to do with eyes on pages, selling ads, and for individual pollsters for being on target and improving/maintaining their reputations. The only people really trying to forecast the election right now are inside the campaigns and parties, and even they aren't interested in just a dry forecast; they're looking for levers they can pull on.

Even if you were trying to offer a good forecast, you might still do a national poll. You can use multilevel regression and poststratification to generate good state estimates out of national-poll data, and then use those results to monte-carlo up some forecasts. If you were doing that, though, you'd probably want to ditch your likely-voter screen in favor of just directly incorporating a predicted probability of turnout.

As long as I'm writing, here, more political science:

Partisanship in surveys is almost never about registration or affiliation. It's almost always "party identification," where the pollster asks you something pretty close to "Thinking about politics, do you usually think of yourself as a Democrat, a Republican, an independent, or what?" And if you answer that you're D/R, they ask you whether you think of yourself as a strong D/R or as not so strong. If you answer that you're independent, they ask whether you lean towards one party or t'other. This gets you a 7-point scale running from strong Democrat through strong Republican.

Here are the two big things we know about independents:

1) Most of them aren't really independent. Independents who lean towards the D or R are almost impossible to distinguish from weak partisans. The only semi-consistent thing that pops up is that D/R leaners are a wee bit *more* likely to vote for their party's candidate than weak D/R are. It's interesting that a bunch of partisans are no longer willing to say that they're partisan, and people look into this, but I don't follow that.

2) Mostly, and only mostly, the pure independents who don't lean either way are dinguses. Pick a measure of civic virtue -- interest in politics, knowledge about politics, likelihood of voting, whatevs -- and pure independents are likely to be on the bottom.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:16 PM on October 4, 2020 [19 favorites]

All presidents, current and former, get a state funeral.

Not all of them. John Tyler did not have one.

They are ALLOWED to have one, Mr. Correction. We will see one for Trump. There's no avoiding that.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:25 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Last election I spent the preceding six months reading every poll I could find, developing opinions on various pollsters, making elaborate Facebook posts to explain polls and polling aggregates to my friends and family. People began to rely on me for information and reassurance. On the night of the election I got multiple texts - from my best friend, from my ex-boyfriend, from an old boss - begging for reassurance that it was actually all going to be ok, like I said, like the polls said. It was the single biggest moment of hubris I have ever experienced.

I am not doing that shit this time. I'm not going to pretend I can know ahead of time what's going to happen. I'm not gonna tell people not to look at polls. But as a former poll addict, I can tell you I'm glad I stopped.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:27 PM on October 4, 2020 [58 favorites]

This table (from a much earlier comment) lists Trump's recent contacts (about 270 now) and their COVID status. 19 tested positive, 62 listed as negative, so 189 with no publicly known result. Presumably many more were tested, but they don't wish to make the result public, or no one in the media has asked. But I would like to know whether the true number infected is just those 19, or the known tests indicate the fraction of contacts that were infected, so 270 * 19/(62+19) = 63.3 were actually infected. Or somewhere in between.
posted by brambleboy at 1:34 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

Mike Pence (aka Mike Dense, in his congressional days), scouted by the Kochs over a decade ago, always managed up:
In Cabinet meeting, Pence praises Trump once every 12 seconds for three minutes straight (WaPo, Dec. 20, 2017)
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:38 PM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

Sorry, 19 tested positive? I thought we were still at 18?
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:39 PM on October 4, 2020

Claudia Conway went on the list a few minutes before I posted, and then came off the list minutes after I posted. Apparently they are still awaiting confirmation of test results.
posted by brambleboy at 1:42 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

I've got a horrible feeling the virus took one look at Bill Barr and said "Ain't no way I'm going in there. I have standards." Either that or it recognised him as a fellow disease and avoided him out of professional respect.
posted by Grangousier at 1:45 PM on October 4, 2020 [33 favorites]

His lack of tweets is a null data point. He's got no reason to tweet.

All the news is about him. Twitter is chattering about him. People are giving him care in person 24/7 and probably asking him how he feels every 15 minutes. All of his narcissistic needs are currently being met. As long as that's the case he won't feel the psychic pressure to act out and recenter everyone's attention back on himself.
posted by Horkus at 1:50 PM on October 4, 2020 [13 favorites]

He's got no reason to tweet.

Did you just wake up from a five year coma? Since when has he ever, ever needed a reason?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:53 PM on October 4, 2020 [40 favorites]

He's got no reason to tweet.

He tweets even if he doesn't have something to say, he'll just hit that retweet button instead.

Jun 6, 2020: "President Donald Trump on Friday sent exactly 200 tweets and retweets — the most so far during his presidency — amid ongoing nationwide protests about police brutality and not long after he issued an executive order to regulate the social network after it fact-checked his posts....He also tweeted 74 times between 8 and 9 a.m. Friday,"
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 1:56 PM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

Everyone always has a reason. They just might be shitty selfish dishonest reasons. What you or I might refer to as an 'impulse'.
posted by Horkus at 1:56 PM on October 4, 2020

His lack of tweets is a null data point. He's got no reason to tweet.

He's also maladjusted to the point of caricature, and there is always (always, always, always) something for him to complain about.
posted by johnofjack at 2:00 PM on October 4, 2020

Like, am I seeing things or did his account today retweet a Diamond & Silk post from 2019?
posted by mochapickle at 2:00 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

His average since January has been over 30 tweets per day. Yeah, his tweets are based on impulse, and he has demonstrated no control over that impulse. If he isn't tweeting now it's because he physically can't, or because someone took the phone out of his drug-addled hands.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:01 PM on October 4, 2020 [9 favorites]

Like, am I seeing things or did his account today retweet a Diamond & Silk post from 2019?
I'm guessing that whoever is managing the phone doesn't feel able to do "Trump"-tweets, but does feel they can retweet flattering stuff from whenever. All the usual tweeters have the virus.
posted by mumimor at 2:03 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

I have a suspicion that whether he tested positive 72 hours ago (from Saturday) versus Thursday night is probably due to confirmatory testing. He probably shrugged off the first result thinking "no symptoms" or else thought of Kasich or others who've had preliminary positives turn negative. My guess is the first test was an antigen test. A UK figure gives the method a 0.8 to 4 per cent chance of false positive, but that range of numbers was determined under controlled conditions.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:08 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

I came to the same probable conclusion, dances_with_sneetches. Apparently, their go-to had been an Abbott test (KHN and HHS) and subsequently they emphasized that Thursday was when the PCR test came back positive. So it stands to reason that Wednesday they were worried, Thursday they knew for sure.
posted by brambleboy at 2:14 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

New video from djt’s twitter

Is he actually going out for a meet and greet?
posted by mochapickle at 2:20 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

> Is he actually going out for a meet and greet?

That's how I hear it. Oh my lord. Will none of the doctors stop him?

I think he's looked healthier than usual in these videos. I presume it's flattering lighting and less makeup.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:25 PM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

I’m puzzled by the timing from Trump first being symptomatic to needing oxygen and steroids. I thought it normally took longer for patients to go from first symptoms to quite sick? Does the illness become serious more quickly for some older people? Anyone have knowledge on this?

(Not conspiracizing, just curious.)

You're definitely not the only one speculating about this.

Frankly it's perfectly possible that he's had it for a week or more and either didn't know (because he was asymptomatic at first and wasn't being tested regularly) or didn't share it (because he's evil).
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:26 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

A lot of the apparent contradiction between "might be discharged tomorrow" and "condition still appears quite serious" can probably be reconciled by remembering that the White House is a medical facility in its own right, with a fully staffed clinic. It's very, very different for a president to be released to return there, versus someone else being sent to their ordinary home.
posted by kickingtheground at 2:27 PM on October 4, 2020 [28 favorites]

CNN reporting that he’s outside in a car waving to supporters. I can’t even.
posted by mochapickle at 2:27 PM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

Is he actually going out for a meet and greet?

Sounds like it; hope he doesn't tear gas anyone this time.

Also he actually has the nerve to say he learned a lot about Covid. JFC dude, you shouldn't have learned anything from this. It all should have been well integrated knowledge but now.
posted by Mitheral at 2:28 PM on October 4, 2020 [12 favorites]

I couldn't tell from the CNN reporting if he was just doing an appearance or actually leaving Walter Reed.
posted by Ruki at 2:30 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Going out to see his adoring fans smells like desperation to me. I just can't tell if it's political desperation or personal.

But I've gotta say, if someone I actually cared about was in the hospital from a serious illness, I sure as hell wouldn't want them to come out and wave at me until they were actually well again.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:30 PM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

does not matter he is the infected/infector president
posted by robbyrobs at 2:31 PM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

Proposed Headline - Trump defies quarantine guidelines, continues to spread covid
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:32 PM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

USA Today, about two hours ago: If the president engages in risky behavior during the COVID-19 pandemic, can the Secret Service – or anyone – stop him?
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:32 PM on October 4, 2020 [9 favorites]

I almost hate to even mention this, given our trend towards conspirary-think here, but I must admit that the thing that Josh Marshall just posted on Talking Points Memo is also a thing that was circulating around in my own head earlier today:

Was the President the Superspreader?

A variety of circumstantial evidence now raises the real possibility that the President was himself the super-spreader at the center of the White House COVID cluster. . . .

But two bits of circumstantial evidence stand out.

(#1) Piecing together the at best fragmentary information from the President’s doctors, it appears the President either had a rapid onset of symptoms and some very worrisome ones or he’s been sick for longer than we’re being told. . . .

(#2) Then there’s the basic question of, who brought COVID to the White House? We’ve had upwards of ten people at the Rose Garden event who have COVID . . . (and) there is one person who was exposed to someone with COVID in the days before the Rose Garden event: Donald Trump.

[NB: He also mentions Hope Hicks was possibly/probably exposed earlier, simultaneously with Trump, and of course there is the possibility others were as well and we just don't know their names and details.]

He is quick to add (as would I) that "for the moment it is all speculation" and there are almost certainly other candidates for the center of the superspreader event. Maybe Trump, maybe Hope Hicks, maybe some others unknown. And maybe several of those, not just one. Like if Trump, Hicks, and say 1-2-3 others on the White House staff were infected a few days before the Rose Garden Massacre and so were at the peak of the pre-symptomatic infectiousness at the Rose Garden, it would explain a lot.

But regardless of the details, and exactly where Trump himself lies in within the chain of transmission, is pretty clear the spreader(s) the day of the Rose Garden Massacre were someone or someones very, very close to the center of things at the White House.

Re: #1, I won't go into excruciating detail, but all reported Trump symptoms, medications, and timing of both, make a lot more sense if Trump were infected say a week ago Thursday (Sept 24th) or thereabouts, were in the no-symptom but highly infectious period by Saturday, then started showing some undeniable symptoms by say Tues-Wed (Sep 27-28), then finally tested positive Thursday.

That would explain the rush to the monoclonal antibodies and Remdesivir, the low oxygen levels at the White House (all that is strange for Day 2 but not so much for Day 5 or--even more so--Day 7), now the move to the steroid treatment (because he's not at Day 4 of his infection as we had thought, but more like Day 10-11), etc.

Like everything, it is speculation and filling in the blanks--very possibly, incorrectly--where blanks have been left to fill in. So, don't take it too seriously.
posted by flug at 2:34 PM on October 4, 2020 [15 favorites]

It seems he's out there, or at least his motorcade is. I don't know if people can see him in the car.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:36 PM on October 4, 2020

My worry is that they they will trace it back to some poor underpaid staff person who will then be blamed and harassed and threatened by his mob.
posted by emjaybee at 2:38 PM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

It seems he's out there, or at least his motorcade is. I don't know if people can see him in the car.

Somehow, it reminds me of the O.J. Simpson car chase.
posted by mumimor at 2:41 PM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

The Hope Hicks results were leaked/released when they were so that people would be pointing fingers at her.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 2:44 PM on October 4, 2020 [14 favorites]

Some other pics confirm it's him. Can't let basic safety protocols prevent him from getting the love of his howling followers. Sucks to be the personnel stuck in there with him.
posted by emjaybee at 2:45 PM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

Was the President the Superspreader?

Seems likely, doesn't it? That's why I want to see all those "unknowns" in the WH Covid Tracker replaced by known values, to put a number to it. Wouldn't be surprised if the WH is looking to suppress this info where they can -- can't be a good look if a bunch of his top donors get sick.

Pure speculation, yes, but I hope some good journalists are doing their best to find out.
posted by brambleboy at 2:53 PM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

"That Presidential SUV is not only bulletproof, but hermetically sealed against chemical attack. The risk of COVID19 transmission inside is as high as it gets outside of medical procedures. The irresponsibility is astounding. My thoughts are with the Secret Service forced to play." - Dr. James P. Phillips, MD, Chief of Disaster Medicine, GWU Emergency Medicine... and Walter Reed Attending Physician
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:54 PM on October 4, 2020 [71 favorites]

Called it.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 2:59 PM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

His daily aspirin and Crestor statin therapy were disclosed in September 2016. Given what's been reported, I did wonder if he'd been on some sort of performance-enhancing drug cocktail which masked early COVID symptoms. (A recent example: the doping combo used at the 2014 Winter Olympics was added to alcohol, swished inside the mouth for absorption by buccal tissue, and spat out. He's 'anti-drug' and doesn't drink, so I could see the appeal of something like a mouthwash which increases and energy and resilience.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:00 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Amphetamines can work miracles, just saying.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:07 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Friendly update: citing sources always helps, telling people who don't cite sources that they're being Q-like does not. Thanks.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:07 PM on October 4, 2020 [10 favorites]

WSJ reports that Trump PERSONALLY tried to cover up the WH covid outbreak: "Mr. Trump also asked one adviser not to disclose results of their own positive test. 'Don’t tell anyone,' Mr. Trump said, according to a person familiar with the conversation."
posted by lazugod at 3:07 PM on October 4, 2020 [34 favorites]

Re: the lack of tweeting. Might the fact that Walter Reed is a military facility, likely with specific policies and potentially with shielding to prevent spying that might impact availability of cell signal inside the presidential section in particular, be relevant? I am unfamiliar with the facility or its policies, but it seems to me that perhaps it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Trump himself and his current medical condition.
posted by eviemath at 3:15 PM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

Yes, Your Childhood Pet Rock. Amphetamines can also mimic a couple of mild conditions.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:15 PM on October 4, 2020

Also, there's a popular coronavirus myth involving cell phones.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:17 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

Presumably the presidential suite has wifi
posted by HumuloneRanger at 3:17 PM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

[Friendly update: citing sources always helps, telling people who don't cite sources that they're being Q-like does not. Thanks.]

Fine, here.

I stand by my frustration with the conspiracy theories that have plagued this thread and the national conversation since Friday. I should have made certain friends of mine bet me cash money on Friday when they were all insisting he wasn't sick at all.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:17 PM on October 4, 2020 [13 favorites]

oh shit did they not tell him the wifi password
posted by Huffy Puffy at 3:19 PM on October 4, 2020 [23 favorites]

I feel like we may be testing the viability of "Weekend at Bernie's" as a system of government in real time
posted by phooky at 3:23 PM on October 4, 2020 [13 favorites]

Can anyone clarify with source - is he going back to the White House? He's been discharged from Walter Reed? Or is this a drive-by rally?
posted by tzikeh at 3:27 PM on October 4, 2020

Well did he actually have it now? Or is he just been very stupid in being out?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 3:28 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

This one says he’s returned to the hospital.
posted by Selena777 at 3:28 PM on October 4, 2020

Can anyone clarify with source - is he going back to the White House? He's been discharged from Walter Reed? Or is this a drive-by rally?

From an Independent article: White House spokesman Judd Deere said: "President Trump took a short, last-minute motorcade ride to wave to his supporters outside and has now returned to the Presidential Suite inside Walter Reed."

So, a pointless stunt! Or possibly a stunt attempting to juice the stock market by showing he's not dead yet.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:29 PM on October 4, 2020 [10 favorites]

It was an unnecessary trip out to parade in front of his supporters before returning to the hospital (The Guardian).
posted by biogeo at 3:29 PM on October 4, 2020

showbiz_liz: So, a pointless stunt!

I just....

The gall. The absolutely unmitigated gall. I hope the Secret Service agents with him do not contract the virus.

I hope a lot of things.
posted by tzikeh at 3:30 PM on October 4, 2020 [22 favorites]

Someone was required to drive that fucking car with the windows up.
posted by Selena777 at 3:31 PM on October 4, 2020 [12 favorites]

Not entirely pointless, as Kai Ryssdal points out:

"Because futures start trading at 6pm East Coast time."

ETA: Oops, missed the earlier post
posted by HumuloneRanger at 3:33 PM on October 4, 2020 [9 favorites]

It looks like he had two people in the car with him. They both need to quarantine for the next 14 days.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:33 PM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

One reporter said an anonymous Secret Service source said Trump’s appearance was “so reckless, so careless, so heartless”. (The Guardian)

posted by biogeo at 3:34 PM on October 4, 2020 [34 favorites]

Did they go to the McDonald's drive-thru?
posted by pracowity at 3:37 PM on October 4, 2020 [12 favorites]

The Imperial Donald's image is more important to him than any risk he presents to anyone around him, including the Secret Service. They do an incredible job of physically protecting all Presidents, but they cannot protect Donald Trump from his own insecurity.
posted by cenoxo at 3:43 PM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

Per @yasminv (MSNBC Anchor) it seems Bill Barr is now self-quarantining.

No info on whether this is due to potentially having it, or testing positive or just due to having been in contact with people who have later turned out to have it.
posted by Buntix at 3:54 PM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

internet friend of mine/vfx professional trying to put the kibosh on the Zapruder-film-ing of the Trump vids: "morph edit" is the new "i can tell it's photoshopped by the pixels" for people who don't know how VFX or compression artifacts work

truly I don't understand why we need to be doing that kind of weird internet sleuthing in a situation already so patently insane as this
posted by Kybard at 3:56 PM on October 4, 2020 [25 favorites]

has there been any word of Biden's result? They said they were going to test him again today (Sunday)...
posted by bread-eater at 3:59 PM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

“Reckless, carless, and heartless” is the Trump family brand. DT’s older brother Fred Jr was the kind, compassionate one who loved life and flying the first commercial passenger jumbo jets and had friends and interests outside the family business.

Donald watched old man Trump (and the entire extended family) disdain, devalue, and finally break Fred Sr’s own son and namesake for not being “a killer” like his dad. Everything DT is is a reflection of “Don’t end up a broken loser like Freddie; be a killer.”

Trumps are either killers who understand that life is a zero-sum game where there is a winner and a loser, and for whom Machiavellian levels of betrayal and personal concern are routine business tools... or they are sentimental losers too weak for to bear the Trump name, a object of ridicule and exclusion by the family.

Ivanka is a killer. Don Jr (aka “Sniffles McSeptum”) is a killer, but probably more suited to delivering coup de grace . Tiffany has shown herself willing to “put in work” for the crime family as needed. Eric... Eric is Fredo, and will probably end up going fishing in a rowboat.

Barron doesn’t look like a killer-in-training.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 4:03 PM on October 4, 2020 [9 favorites]

I can't believe Trump is such a thin-skinned attention-seeking idiot that he couldn't go two days without such an utterly pointless act of self-aggrandizing that risks the lives of the people around him. This is precisely why I openly despise him and feel zero shame about it. His insecurities are so great that he'll hurt anyone around him in any way - even his own allies, supporters and family! - if it gets him a temporary sense of validation. I could have sympathy for such a fragile ego if he weren't constantly seeking to promote himself at the expense of others' safety. Why on earth would I ever refrain from referring to that man as a dangerous, pathetic imbecile? The unwillingness to acknowledge that he really is just a stupid racist, misogynist asshole has done nothing but empower him. He will never be presidential, he will never be an adult, he has done so much to deserve scorn and contempt. To treat him as if he deserves any respect at all is to minimize his actions. He is the "embarrassing" uncle of the entire US who everyone tip-toes around and rarely confronts directly. He deserves to finally for once in his miserable life face consequences for the harm he done.
posted by Lonnrot at 4:04 PM on October 4, 2020 [43 favorites]

I can't believe Trump is such a thin-skinned attention-seeking idiot that he couldn't go two days without such an utterly pointless act of self-aggrandizing that risks the lives of the people around him.

Really? I can.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:05 PM on October 4, 2020 [33 favorites]

Unintentionally meaningless figure of speech - I can perfectly and easily believe it based on the criteria I gave. :P
posted by Lonnrot at 4:07 PM on October 4, 2020 [9 favorites]

Gavin McInnes, founder of the Proud Boys, is here at Walter Reed Medical Center— supporters on site starting chanting “Gavin! Gavin!” as he arrived. --link goes to DJ Judd's twitter.

"I will die for that man! He is a hero!" coming from the crowd watching the "motorcade" go by. -- C-SPAN recording.

Hey buddy, good news....
posted by tzikeh at 4:10 PM on October 4, 2020 [26 favorites]

It was an unnecessary trip out to parade in front of his supporters before returning to the hospital

Are. You. Fucking. Kidding. Me.
posted by corb at 4:13 PM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

I will die for that man!

Stop. Don't. Come back. /wonka gif
posted by mrgoat at 4:15 PM on October 4, 2020 [33 favorites]

"I will die for that man! He is a hero!" coming from the crowd watching the "motorcade" go by.

"There are some who would have thought him mad. His followers felt that he was not. It was necessary to hear and see and touch him to be sure he was not." - The Masque of the Red Death
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:16 PM on October 4, 2020 [35 favorites]

hey brambleboy, you can put Claudia back on the list.
posted by tzikeh at 4:18 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

CNN reporting that the white house press pool was not notified of the president’s little joyride today. Any movement without first notifying the pool is considered “highly irregular.”
posted by mochapickle at 4:19 PM on October 4, 2020 [9 favorites]

Trump should reward McInnes’s devotion with a private audience.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:25 PM on October 4, 2020 [40 favorites]

This little joyride was ill-advised from any standpoint. From a political standpoint, from an ethical one, from a public relations standpoint, and certainly from a medical standpoint, it was an obviously terrible idea.

And no-one could stop the President from getting in his motorcade and taking a jaunt.

To me this seems to indicate that the President isn't thinking clearly, and the people around him can't stop him from taking action despite his obvious incapacitation.
posted by MrVisible at 4:26 PM on October 4, 2020 [17 favorites]

I don't believe any doctor at Walter Reed would ever violate HIPAA, no matter how much they despise Trump's actions, no matter how many people he puts at risk, but just imagine--just imagine!--if the prosecutor on the E. Jean Carroll rape allegation suddenly came into possession of a sample of Trump's DNA.

Yes, yes, fruit of the poisonous tree, but a girl can dream.
posted by tzikeh at 4:28 PM on October 4, 2020 [22 favorites]

just imagine--just imagine!--if the prosecutor on the E. Jean Carroll rape allegation suddenly came into possession of a sample of Trump's DNA

That can probably be done quite easily without violating anything; Mary Trump's DNA should be around 25% identical with her uncle's.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:32 PM on October 4, 2020 [12 favorites]

I'm hearing that Biden's latest test results came back negative.
posted by ckape at 4:37 PM on October 4, 2020 [23 favorites]

tzikeh: Her dad disputes the definitiveness of her TikTok. Presumably they'll report when they get the results back. Presumably there will be many more innocents put in harm's way. As it has been since the beginning.
posted by brambleboy at 4:41 PM on October 4, 2020

Her dad disputes the definitiveness of her TikTok.

How is this what politics is now, lolsob
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:54 PM on October 4, 2020 [42 favorites]

An unexpected Trump covid winfall. The biblical conservative GOP candidate running against the fabulous Cameron Webb in Viriginia -05 it seems was hanging out with Mike Lee (covid +) on September 23rd. Would not reveal to a local Roanoke VA reporter if he's been tested. Again, I can only hope (and fuck that let's pray for the monsters bullshit).
posted by bluesky43 at 5:01 PM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

Washington Post reports Biden has again tested negative.

Also, Joe Biden’s campaign said it will disclose the results of every coronavirus test the Democratic nominee takes, following increased pressure for more transparency
posted by cheshyre at 5:01 PM on October 4, 2020 [29 favorites]

An unexpected Trump covid winfall. The biblical conservative GOP candidate running against the fabulous Cameron Webb in Viriginia -05 it seems was hanging out with Mike Lee (covid +) on September 23rd. Would not reveal to a local Roanoke VA reporter if he's been tested. Again, I can only hope (and fuck that let's pray for the monsters bullshit).

I have apparently gone context-blind since my return to following the news and can't parse this paragraph -- is this good, or bad, and why? Windfall for whom?
posted by tzikeh at 5:05 PM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

Windfall for the good people of VA-05. Perhaps the next news will be the GOP candidate will be covid +
posted by bluesky43 at 5:08 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Stock futures rise after Trump motorcade appearance. Gosh these markets just get more and more rational by the day!!
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:12 PM on October 4, 2020 [36 favorites]

Came here to check on the stock market, I’ve been worrying myself into a tizzy about those poor futures
posted by glaucon at 5:21 PM on October 4, 2020 [29 favorites]

WSJ reports that Trump PERSONALLY tried to cover up the WH covid outbreak: "Mr. Trump also asked one adviser not to disclose results of their own positive test. 'Don’t tell anyone,' Mr. Trump said, according to a person familiar with the conversation."

Given the accuracy of the quick tests, I wouldn't call that a cover-up. They were waiting for a confirmation by another test.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:21 PM on October 4, 2020

I thought the accuracy problems with the rapid tests were more about false negatives, not false positives?
posted by saturday_morning at 5:23 PM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

Yeah, I think Trump might be misinterpreting what it means when stock futures are up the weekend after he goes into the hospital with COVID-19 and Biden tests negative.
posted by The Tensor at 5:26 PM on October 4, 2020 [36 favorites]

Yeah, I think Trump might be misinterpreting what it means when stock futures are up the weekend after he goes into the hospital with COVID-19 and Biden tests negative.

Not to mention when polling shows Biden up 14
posted by glaucon at 5:33 PM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

accuracy problems [...] were more about false negatives, not false positives

This is correct. False negatives are the concern.

Anyone who tests positive with a rapid test should immediately be isolated, people who've been in close contact with that person should quarantine, and anyone who provides medical care to that person should wear an N95 and eye protection.

All that said, any positive result on a rapid test should be verified by a PCR.
posted by jesourie at 5:36 PM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

I’ve been following this thread throughout the weekend. I’m grateful for Metafilter always, but ESPECIALLY right now, after having just debated my Trump-supporting aunt via text (she’s always been a big part of my life, so I’m sad and disappointed). But to be able to come on here for a rational, logical discussion of politics brings my frustrated heart so much joy. Thank you.
posted by sucre at 5:37 PM on October 4, 2020 [28 favorites]

Heck, if I have a patient with a negative rapid test, I still wear an N95 and eye protection--as an OR nurse, I assist with aerosolizing procedures like intubation and extubation multiple times a shift and the false negative rate of some of the rapid tests is quite high.

Only when the patient has a negative PCR do I use an isolation mask instead of an N95.
posted by jesourie at 5:41 PM on October 4, 2020 [15 favorites]

good read Doctors Under Hitler
posted by robbyrobs at 5:42 PM on October 4, 2020

@PeterAlexander, NBC News: Reminder: A White House official, on Saturday, told me the First Lady would not be visiting Trump at Walter Reed because “she has COVID and that would expose the agents who would drive her there.”
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:44 PM on October 4, 2020 [71 favorites]

"Has anyone ever told you that you'd look great, really great, in a comb over?"

(2010 was so long ago)
posted by philip-random at 5:50 PM on October 4, 2020

Most rapid covid testing is an antigen test. However, some rapid tests are done by PCR. For example, the rapid test I perform in my lab is PCR. I have the advantage of working in a hospital lab and we only perform rapid PCR on admissions so obviously this is an outlier. But I have fielded a lot of calls from physicians not wanting to admit patients until they get a negative on the "real" covid test so I feel it's worth clarifying.
posted by MaritaCov at 5:51 PM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

Sunday is "call the folks" night here and my mom is a trumpster big time. My dad is as well but so dementia afflicted I just don't engage about politics with him, and I have to be careful with her, she gets mad, then I get mad, and she's gone long periods not talking to my older sister about politics.

Tonight I told her I think the election, were it a normal election where we all go vote and know the winner by breakfast, is over, because if the pandemic is an issue in the election, well donnie shitstain just mis-managed himself into the hospital and got a lot of other people sick. She largely agreed, and even said she might sit this election out, and just last week was telling me "he's done such great things for the country!!" She sounded very sad and unenthusiastic about her candidate.

Your trumpy mom mileage may vary, but if my mom is willing to admit he fucked up and she might not vote for him, he might wish he died rather than suffer the defeat that awaits in November.
posted by vrakatar at 5:54 PM on October 4, 2020 [73 favorites]

Somebody should make a Trump/Covid 2020 flag.
posted by valkane at 6:10 PM on October 4, 2020 [32 favorites]

Thanks for clarifying, MaritaCov. My hospital doesn't use the rapid PCR; our rapids are Abbott IDNow, which are great for use in the ED to identify positive cases quickly but aren't what I'm willing to bet my health on when I'm inches from someone's airway pulling a stylet out of an ET tube.
posted by jesourie at 6:13 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

I wouldn’t declare victory so fast. As Harold Wilson (reportedly) said, “A week is a lifetime in politics.”

Enthusiasm for Biden is weak (including me) and it only took a few tens of thousands of votes in certain states to elect Trump. Another Comey surprise, another Biden gaffe, continued Dem feckless and passive campaigning ....

Like Michael Moore, I wouldn’t discount a Trump re-election.
posted by sudogeek at 6:14 PM on October 4, 2020 [15 favorites]

Like Michael Moore, I wouldn’t discount a Trump re-election.

Chance of winning the election, as forecast by the New York Times on October 20th, 2016: Clinton 92% / Trump 8%
posted by tzikeh at 6:17 PM on October 4, 2020 [35 favorites]

she might sit this election out

This is actually a big deal, because élections can well be determined by who gets the vote out and who stays home. In fact, it has been argued that's exactly why Trump won (the EC) in 2006.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

538 was saying Trump had a better chance than people thought at winning and they were pretty much alone. This time around, they think that, while possible he wins, he’s toast. We’ll see what we get 11/3. Meanwhile, vote, dammit. If what Trump has done to the country isn’t enough to get you enthusiastic to vote for Biden, then I don’t know what to say.

Today is just another example of how no one can tell him “no.” He went out for a photo op to make his base happy. The press conferences to update the nation on his health have gone sideways and you know Trump is pulling strings on that. Any Functioning Adult 2020.
posted by azpenguin at 6:22 PM on October 4, 2020 [17 favorites]

I think for a lot of people, numbers like 200,000+ dead feel too abstract to be real. But the decision to force two members of the Secret Service to expose themselves to a serious risk of infection, a serious risk they can see and understand because Trump is actually in the hospital from it, for literally no reason other than to take a short joyride and wave at his supporters, that's the kind of callous indifference to other people that feels much more personal, and comprehensible. If this fact manages to stick in the media long enough for those not too deep in the Fox bubble to actually see it and digest it, this seems like the sort of thing that might actually manage to wake some people up to what kind of a man he really is, or at least make them question their commitment. Obviously this is meaningless for the kind of full-on Trumpists who think Fox News is "too liberal," but for the kind of people who don't deal well with abstractions and have just been suckered by the superficial rhetoric of conservatism that Trump presents, I believe this is the kind of specific, concrete callousness that might actually kindle a response from human empathy when nothing else has.
posted by biogeo at 6:23 PM on October 4, 2020 [31 favorites]

“Now imagine the President’s car seats 7 million.”
posted by hijinx at 6:29 PM on October 4, 2020 [19 favorites]

I have just read a tweet from a medic from the Army who is familiar with procedure at Walter Reed (I am so sorry I can't find the tweet to source it but I hope you can tell from all of my other comments that I am a source-citing-type MeFite), and they wrote that the only way this joy-ride could have taken place is if Trump ordered the doctors (as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces) to go against SOP protocol and let him (an infectious patient) leave his rooms.

No less than a direct order from CiC to abandon all rules and codes could have made this happen.
posted by tzikeh at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2020 [64 favorites]

That's a good idea, Jesourie. Our hospital was going to move to AbbotID for traumas that needed immediate surgical intervention because it's about half the run time. We ultimately decided against it because of its reliability. We treat everybody as positive until the PCR is done. We were lucky that we have a neuro center so we already had PCR modules for CSF analysis and just had to wait for COVID reagents to slooooooooooowly become available.
posted by MaritaCov at 6:30 PM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

My mom is in MA so her vote kinda doesn't count, of course. Blue state.
posted by vrakatar at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2020

I'm afraid he can win because his approval numbers keep inching up after every self inflicted shitstorm. They go down and then slowly back up to 42-43. That's the same thing I've noticed (and it was very worrying back then, as well), in 2016. If you're in a swing state, don't forget to tell all of your friends to vote!
posted by rainy at 6:35 PM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

I feel like we may be testing the viability of "Weekend at Bernie's" as a system of government in real time

Ronald Reagan, WAB 1.0 alpha release.

(snopes says 'nah'. and those gosh darn white house physicians are so trustworthy...but I listened to all those "I don't recall"s live)
posted by j_curiouser at 6:35 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

No, FiveThirtyEight doesn't think Trump's toast: there's currently a 19% chance of a Trump win given the polling data available. That is nearly a 1 in 5 chance, and their information doesn't account for new voter suppression tactics that the Republicans are able to employ this year, including contesting and invalidating mail-in ballots in key states like Pennsylvania. Every time this point comes up I keep reaching for the same metaphor: your odds of dying from playing one round of Russian Roulette are 1 in 6. According to polling data, Trump is currently more likely to win reelection than a person playing Russian Roulette is to die. If you wouldn't feel comfortable playing Russian Roulette, don't feel comfortable about the election. Vote, and if you can, help get out the vote.

People misinterpreted polling analytics in 2016 as though a 1 in 10 chance of a Trump win meant that a Trump win was virtually impossible (or were misled by Sam Wang's flawed analysis technique that failed to account for correlated errors in the polling data). It didn't mean that then, and it doesn't mean that now. Regardless of how Trump's health plays out here, anything could happen between now and November 3, and this election isn't in the bag for anyone.
posted by biogeo at 6:36 PM on October 4, 2020 [51 favorites]

She largely agreed, and even said she might sit this election out, and just last week was telling me "he's done such great things for the country!!"

My dad talked to some Trump-y relatives of mine the day after the debate (so before the COVID diagnosis), and the wife of the couple volunteered that she was so horrified by the debate that she thought she might sit the election out. I'll believe it when I see it, but I googled the husband, because I wanted to see where they were living these days, and it turns out that he's written two letters to the editor of his local newspaper this summer saying that Trump's bungling of the COVID crisis shows that he's unfit to govern. And that was before this debacle. If I had to guess, I would say that she'll hold her nose and vote for Trump, and he'll maybe vote for Biden. But they're in Pennsylvania, and they definitely both voted for Trump in 2016, so that's a loss of one Trump vote in an important state.

I don't know. There is so much that could go wrong, including the Trump people outright stealing the election. But I do think that the last week has hurt Trump.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:43 PM on October 4, 2020 [13 favorites]

On Oct 4, 538 had Clinton at 75% (+4); a week later it was 84% (+6); a week after that, it was 87% (+7). Right now it's 81% (+7) for Biden.
posted by chortly at 6:43 PM on October 4, 2020 [9 favorites]

Hey MaritaCov and Jesourie, for those Abbott rapid antigen tests, if a person is exposed during event X and will eventually become sick, how many days after event X would you expect the test to show a positive?
posted by brambleboy at 6:44 PM on October 4, 2020

chortly: "On Oct 4, 538 had Clinton at 75% (+4); a week later it was 84% (+6); a week after that, it was 87% (+7). Right now it's 81% (+7) for Biden."

So we're at least doing better than 2016. Is that enough? Have they changed polling techniques to account for the disparities from four years ago? Has 538 changed their model?
posted by octothorpe at 7:02 PM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

No, FiveThirtyEight doesn't think Trump's toast

I believe the 538 folks have said that the current @0% chance is a conservative estimate to leave room for things to swing as the election nears. Ah, yes, here's the quote, from juuuust after the debate:

But it’s possible Trump’s chances may decline further after post-debate polling begins to roll into our forecast. Furthermore, the mere passage of time helps Biden in our model, because every day that Trump doesn’t gain ground is a day when his fate becomes slightly more sealed. (Lots of people have already voted!) Case in point: In an election held today — Trump has no more time to make up ground — his chances would be 9 percent, not 21 percent, according to our forecast.

It seems like every break is against Trump so far. But I am all for doom and gloom if it gets more people out to vote.

And you're absolutely right that the models don't account for shenanigans, intimidation, etc. It's all about getting people out.

Fun news locally in Oakland: Our local post office drop box is now locked. WTF.
posted by kaibutsu at 7:08 PM on October 4, 2020 [10 favorites]

"contracted the virus and died, could manslaughter charges be laid?"

I doubt it, but I do think one of the things that may well come out of this pandemic is changes in liability when people make deliberate but voluntary health choices -- attending parties during Covid, refusing vaccines with no health reason -- that endanger others. Some states are already assessing large fines against people flouting masking laws or gathering laws. It's a short step to civil suits.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:17 PM on October 4, 2020 [13 favorites]

But the decision to force two members of the Secret Service to expose themselves to a serious risk of infection

Not suggesting it's true, and can't see any evidence of it in the pics (though would be hard to tell), but I take it there wasn't any form of barrier between Trump and the SS agents?

Given that people are doing it ad-hoc with their ubers and the like it would certainly seem possible. Without that even with the masks it seems hard to see how the agents could not be infected in such a close shared-air space for the period of time involved.
posted by Buntix at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2020

On the one hand, the race has been much more stable than it was 4 years ago, and the voting being spread out over a month with early and absentee voting suggests that the predictions are a safer bet this year. On the other hand, voter suppression, shy trumpers, and general 2020ness suggest don't get cocky.
posted by ckape at 7:39 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]

Our local post office drop box is now locked. WTF.

Because the first day of voting in California is October 7 -- relax. I heard the ballots are going into the mail tonight.
posted by Rash at 7:59 PM on October 4, 2020 [7 favorites]

Obviously this is just from my experience and not based on any broad data, but typically a patient developing covid will test negative 67% of the time three days post exposure and negative 20% of the time five days post exposure. Abbott is saying their test sensitivity has improved but our correlation study a couple months ago was very bad.
posted by MaritaCov at 8:08 PM on October 4, 2020 [15 favorites]

It is interesting watching a buncha Republicans trying just now to start to begin figuring out the science about Covid-19, when so many responsible people trying to safely do normal things (schools, restaurants, etc.) have been reading up and losing sleep for a while now. The human-hours missed in forgone planning because the federal government could absolutely not be trusted to have the best interests of the American people in mind. It's weird to watch people for the first time try to parse how the infection is spreadable before you start coughing.

It must be the most dissonance to start to figure out biology for a minute and then see The President poison some people in a literal way in a parade to make sure you like him.
posted by lauranesson at 8:23 PM on October 4, 2020 [34 favorites]

Were I advising the Secret Service guys, I'd be pushing them towards full-face powered air-purifying respirators that are capable of handling most aerosols. They're very good for most biologicals. Better protection and much more comfortable than N95 masks. Of course PAPR masks are much worse at protecting others from the wearer, but I doubt the SS would care much about that. At least keep the security folks safe. Fuck what the president thinks of it.
posted by bonehead at 8:58 PM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

"Fuck what the President thinks of it" is exactly contrary to how the Secret Service operates of course.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:03 PM on October 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

Another observation about the ramifications of DJT's excursion*, from a tweet by Dr. James P. Phillips, an emergency medicine physician affiliated with Walter Reed:

That Presidential SUV is not only bulletproof, but hermetically sealed against chemical attack. The risk of COVID19 transmission inside is as high as it gets outside of medical procedures. The irresponsibility is astounding. My thoughts are with the Secret Service forced to play.

(*Marking approximately the 178,953rd time since June 16, 2015, that I've said to myself, "He's gone as low as he can go. How can he possibly go any lower?")
posted by virago at 9:09 PM on October 4, 2020 [11 favorites]

I wonder if COVID has fucked up Trump's usual "no translator recordings" meetings with Putin that he used to have at least twice a year. He must have had to arrange some other method to talk to his handler. Remember Trump won several states by razor thin margins, it is entirely possible he can swing 100k vote differences in any state with a R governor and weak audit trails.
posted by benzenedream at 9:23 PM on October 4, 2020 [4 favorites]

so that's a loss of one Trump vote in an important state.

It's actually a loss of TWO Trump votes if we are comparing election to election.

In 2016 the household would have both voted for Trump (+2). A split household (+1/-1) in 2020 comes out to be a push (+0) and so is a let loss of 2 votes for Trump compared to 2016.

The scale shifts even more radically for values of "Trumpist stays home and regret vote hits the polls" (-2 effective votes) and "both voters switch." (-4 effective votes) Multiply this by every household that is having regrets in every state that influences the electoral college outcome. It doesn't take long to add up.

If every divided household simply moves from +2 Trump to Push, that's a big deal in a state where the margins were, like, a few tens of thousands of votes or less. It would take 10,000 of those divided households in a state of a few million to change the direction of dozens of electoral votes.

Elections are a zero sum game, which means every time you convince an enemy to stay home it's a win for you. If you can actually pull off flipping someone it's like double-score which is why so much energy is put into it but, in normal times, I tend to thing this is a bad investment. But, these are not normal times.

Never underestimate the power of keeping the opposition demoralized and at home. If it wasn't effective, the GOP wouldn't have ridden that horse so hard for the last 40 years.

Don't get me wrong, I hate that this is the system we have but anything with substantial enough rules becomes a game and anything that is a game can be gamed.

"It is what it is."

EDIT: SO GO VOTE. CONVINCE NEW VOTERS TO VOTE (+1), and CONVINCE THE OPPOSITION TO STAY HOME (-1). Probably in that order.
posted by absalom at 9:24 PM on October 4, 2020 [29 favorites]

weirdly, the phrase

“the president risked the lives of his security detail for the sake of a joyride”

seems like it could believably apply to more than one president
posted by sixswitch at 9:32 PM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

An article on the state of the US presidential succession, and its holes: A Hospitalized President, A Continuity Crisis?

Being the aide with the football sounds like a really bad job just about now:

there were revised instructions given to the entire “EA Team”[Emergency Action] that supports the military aide to the President about what to do in case the President is involuntarily incapacitated. If a President’s judgment is impaired by illness and he were to issue an order to the officer who carries the President’s emergency satchel – the famed nuclear “football” – there is now a checklist of sorts that the officer can consult before carrying out the order."

posted by BungaDunga at 9:39 PM on October 4, 2020 [5 favorites]

I can't help but wonder what happens if Trump weakens the Secret Service enough that their protection....just isn't as good? Say, if he makes every agent sick, who's left?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:45 PM on October 4, 2020

"...there is now a checklist of sorts that the officer can consult before carrying out the order."

I have to think this actually goes back to when Mattis(?) intimated that they prepared to prevent Trump from accessing the football at his whim.
posted by rhizome at 10:07 PM on October 4, 2020 [6 favorites]

He uses it as an excuse to surround himself with an Erik Price furnished private contractor proud boy security team. It's what he and his handlers would prefer over dedicated career civil servants.
posted by cmfletcher at 10:52 PM on October 4, 2020 [14 favorites]

Because Trump takes so many trips and because his adult children do as well independent of the President the SS has been maxing out their allowed overtime which has lead to shortages of staff and reduced effectiveness. A bunch of them coming down with Covid would only make that situation worse.
posted by Mitheral at 11:05 PM on October 4, 2020 [8 favorites]

In regards to the football, Trump just ordered his security detail to do something monstrously stupid while clearly impaired and they didn't blink an eye.
posted by xammerboy at 11:33 PM on October 4, 2020 [25 favorites]

the only way this joy-ride could have taken place is if Trump ordered the doctors (as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces) to go against SOP protocol and let him (an infectious patient) leave his rooms.

The sensible thing for the doctors to do at that point, is remove themselves from the case. "If you are going to ignore my medical advice, I cannot treat you." They sure as hell don't want to be sued over anything that happens to him while he's running around outside the hospital with a disease that kills 1 in 12 patients in his age category.

A patient leaving the hospital AMA should be grounds to drop the case without having any penalties on their records.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:14 AM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

first day of voting in California is October 7 -- relax. I heard the ballots are going into the mail tonight

Depends on where you are, there isn't a single date statewide; mine arrived on Thursday along with the voter guide (and the drop boxes for completed ballots will be available from Monday the 5th of October, at least here).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:20 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

A patient leaving the hospital AMA should be grounds to drop the case without having any penalties on their records.

Agreed but being sued would be the least of their worries if they dropped the President of the United States as a patient. The head of a white supremacist group is one of the many fans standing outside of Walter Reed. The doctors might get doxxed, demoted, or worse. Until and unless the appropriate folks declare that guy incapacitated, everyone is getting pulled down to his level—including the medical professionals.

Ronald Reagan developed dementia during his presidency, and everyone close to him collaborated to keep him in office. The story won’t be any different for this president. Unless he’s unconscious, he will keep doing crazy, careless, cruel shit and people will help him do it. Some of them because they cannot say no without losing their livelihoods. There is no “surely this” and there never will be. There is only getting out the vote, no fucking kidding.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:45 AM on October 5, 2020 [64 favorites]

I would go farther and say it is the hospitals responsibility to make sure any Covid patient doesn't leave their room, especially if they are on drugs that may impair their judgement. What we've seen is every institution fail to prevent Trump from acting irresponsibly and illegally be it our news, military, political, and now medical institutions. It's one thing to hide an ailment or help to manage a president's dementia, and quite another to let him run roughshod over the law, destroy democracy, and endanger lives.
posted by xammerboy at 1:05 AM on October 5, 2020 [10 favorites]

Enthusiasm for Biden is weak (including me)

Ah, but weak enthusiasm for Biden is typically paired with white hot enthusiasm against Trump, and the net effect is the same.
posted by nnethercote at 1:50 AM on October 5, 2020 [20 favorites]

John Lovett (mefi's own) recently interviewed Adam Davidson on Trump's money laundering, and it's an incredibly clear conversation about an important, but obscure topic. I was so moved I uploaded the clip to YouTube. I don't know what difference it'll make, but please share as widely as possible.
posted by heathkit at 1:56 AM on October 5, 2020 [24 favorites]

I would go farther and say it is the hospitals responsibility to make sure any Covid patient doesn't leave their room, especially if they are on drugs that may impair their judgement. What we've seen is every institution fail to prevent Trump from acting irresponsibly and illegally be it our news, military, political, and now medical institutions.

Or in this case, an institution that is both military and medical, which puts them in a particularly weak position to override the will of a patient who is the President of the United States.

It's one thing to hide an ailment or help to manage a president's dementia, and quite another to let him run roughshod over the law, destroy democracy, and endanger lives.

As with so much of Trump's other misbehavior, the problem is that the US Constitution has a pretty limited set of tools to check the power of a rogue president and even those that theoretically exist are unusable if that president enjoys the connivance of the Senate to ignore his misdeeds.

Ironically when Susan Collins said, in the wake of the failed impeachment attempt, that she believed Trump had learned his lesson she was absolutely right. Unfortunately, as we all knew he would, the lesson he learned was that the few checks on his power he might have feared would not be used against him.

That's where we are and it won't change before the election unless it becomes manifestly clear that Trump is completely incapacitated.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:28 AM on October 5, 2020 [24 favorites]

Stock futures rise after Trump motorcade appearance. Gosh these markets just get more and more rational by the day!!

“Trump is good for the Dow” is the “Hitler built good roads” of our time.
posted by acb at 2:29 AM on October 5, 2020 [29 favorites]

But the decision to force two members of the Secret Service to expose themselves to a serious risk of infection, a serious risk they can see and understand because Trump is actually in the hospital from it, for literally no reason other than to take a short joyride and wave at his supporters, that's the kind of callous indifference to other people that feels much more personal, and comprehensible.

If you have a rigidly hierarchical view of society, underlings are just that, pawns to be disposed of as their lord wishes. (Which is why sacrificing Secret Service officers for a joyride is congruent with Support The Troops/Blue Lives Matters/Pro-Life.) And a lot of people have been gaslighted into believing that you either accept that or it's mandatory gay sharia abortions for everyone.
posted by acb at 2:30 AM on October 5, 2020 [12 favorites]

Barron doesn’t look like a killer-in-training.

After being raised in that family, best-case scenario is that Barron ends up as someone like Dexter Morgan.
posted by JohnFromGR at 3:29 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

HE'S TWEETING AGAIN!!
posted by popcassady at 3:49 AM on October 5, 2020

In medical slang, a patient who leaves the hospital like that is said to have eloped. Usually happens with folks either in acute psychiatric crisis or significant cognitive impairment -- there's a reason psych and dementia wards are locked units.

Learning that the president eloped with a couple Secret Service is ... not the strangest elopement I've come across, but it's pretty up there.
posted by basalganglia at 4:15 AM on October 5, 2020 [21 favorites]

Somebody should make a Trump/Covid 2020 flag.

Make America Positive!
posted by Thorzdad at 4:39 AM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

popcassady: "HE'S TWEETING AGAIN!!"

PRO LIFE! VOTE!
MASSIVE REGULATION CUTS. VOTE!
SPACE FORCE. VOTE!
BEST V.A. EVER. 91% APPROVAL RATING. VOTE!
401(K). VOTE!
...
He did that at least 12 times in 15 minutes this morning.
posted by octothorpe at 4:47 AM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

If it's really him, he's tweeting like somebody who just got hold of his phone and thinks someone's going to snatch it back any second...

I suppose those new tweets sound like him, because they're all caps, but they're all a little too on message. Basically a list of slogans. Nothing about how big a crowd is or what's wrong with Biden or anything like that...

Make America Positive!

INFECT AMERICA WITH GREATNESS
posted by mmoncur at 4:56 AM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Quick note: removed a couple of comments because as pointed out in flags, a fairly common reference to rowdy or boisterous onlookers / spectators is believed to have extremely racist origins or at least connections, so is best avoided once learning this. Thanks all.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:58 AM on October 5, 2020 [10 favorites]

He did that at least 12 times in 15 minutes this morning.

An acquaintance who spent time with someone who was on steroids to treat pneumonia immediately recognised this as the steroids having kicked in.
posted by acb at 5:10 AM on October 5, 2020 [21 favorites]

He did that at least 12 times in 15 minutes this morning

Yep. Those are some drugs, alright.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:18 AM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Seen on Twitter:
• Trump’s Twitter feed this morning is like a series of Burma Shave ads [1]
• There is a fine line between tweet storm and manic episode [2]
posted by cheshyre at 5:25 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

I find it very hard to believe that Trump knows how to correctly write “401(k).”
posted by argonauta at 5:48 AM on October 5, 2020 [15 favorites]

"HE'S TWEETING AGAIN!!"

stan_beeman_eyetwitch.gif
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 6:13 AM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

I find it very hard to believe that Trump knows how to correctly write “401(k).”

On the one hand, true. On the other hand: "SPACE FORCE. VOTE!"
posted by gwint at 6:16 AM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

SPACE FORCE. VOTE!

"Avengers, assemble!"
posted by wenestvedt at 6:23 AM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

On the other hand: "SPACE FORCE. VOTE!"

I mean, I'm OK with a second season, but when did Netflix start polling on show renewals?>
posted by nubs at 6:24 AM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

Trump just ordered his security detail to do something monstrously stupid while clearly impaired and they didn't blink an eye.

Anyone who goes into the Secret Service knows they might someday have to take a bullet for their principal. While I’m sure they are all dedicated, guarding whoever the current POTUS is more prestigious that shepherding around a nonegenarian ex-VP who was in office decades ago*, so it’s not hard to imagine that the ones guarding the current occupant of the office are the most driven and motivated of the entire force.

At the same time, they are human, and that drive and motivation must flag a bit when their principal says, “Here, balance this apple on your head, will you? I want to try something,” while pulling out a .38.

*Walter Mondale will be 93 in January, inshallah.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:37 AM on October 5, 2020 [12 favorites]

The Trump camp claim that the Secret Service agents in the vehicle were volunteers, and that there was a plexiglass partition separating them from Trump. (This may of course be a lie).
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:47 AM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

It's not ethical to pointlessly endanger the life of a volunteer, either. And unless they installed a separate ventilation system for the front and back of that hermetically sealed car, a plexiglas barrier would do jack all.
posted by saturday_morning at 6:52 AM on October 5, 2020 [18 favorites]

Did they also get their own recirculated air supply, separate from the President's? If not, the plexiglass partition is irrelevant.
posted by acb at 6:53 AM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

They shoulda propped him up on the back of a flat-bed with huge mounted fans blowing his diseased vapours on all his supporters. The ultimate Rolling Covid.
posted by valkane at 6:58 AM on October 5, 2020 [34 favorites]

The Trump camp claim that the Secret Service agents in the vehicle were volunteers...

I mean, technically, all SS agents are volunteers.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:02 AM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

There's your meme right there: a picture of Trump waving from the backseat of that Chevy Suburban with the words ROLLING COVID emblazoned underneath.
posted by valkane at 7:10 AM on October 5, 2020 [10 favorites]

John Lovett (mefi's own) recently interviewed Adam Davidson on Trump's money laundering, and it's an incredibly clear conversation about an important, but obscure topic. I was so moved I uploaded the clip to YouTube. I don't know what difference it'll make, but please share as widely as possible.

Sorry to derail, but Jon Lovett is not the same person as the user you're linking to.
posted by carrienation at 7:15 AM on October 5, 2020 [12 favorites]

>blowing his diseased vapours on all his supporters.

That pretty much describes his last 5 years.
posted by Catblack at 7:21 AM on October 5, 2020 [10 favorites]

Medical update coming soon, says the Guardian liveblog.
posted by saturday_morning at 7:24 AM on October 5, 2020

So THAT’S IT!?? The worst person in the world gets the plague of the century and all that happens is HE HAS A ROUGH FUCKING WEEKEND?!?!?!?

What even is this universe?
posted by wabbittwax at 7:31 AM on October 5, 2020 [31 favorites]

Maybe someone told him that, like the barbarians of ancient times, everyone he kills during his death-rage becomes his personal servant in the afterlife.
posted by The otter lady at 7:33 AM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

So THAT’S IT!?? The worst person in the world gets the plague of the century and all that happens is HE HAS A ROUGH FUCKING WEEKEND?!?!?!?

Yeah, I'm done following the news again. See y'all if we make it through.
posted by tzikeh at 7:36 AM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

Wait, did something happen? Is he back on the golf course or something?
posted by WeekendJen at 7:38 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

(This may of course be a lie).

I move that every statement from the White House have this as the final line. It is the Carthago delenda est for our times.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:38 AM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

Wait, did something happen? Is he back on the golf course or something?

Yeah, if you guys are going to post hot takes, at least give us a link to what you're reacting to?
posted by Fleebnork at 7:40 AM on October 5, 2020 [38 favorites]

The Guardian Live Blog announced a press conference at Walter Reed was going to happen about 20 minutes ago, and no updates since then. So no, no confirmation yet that he's being discharged.
posted by damayanti at 7:42 AM on October 5, 2020

My reaction is not to a specific new thing. Just that he’s back to tweeting and endangering peoples’ lives and apparently there are still no real consequences for him.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:42 AM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

Really surprised the fundamentalists aren't picking up on the whole Antichrist thing. Description of the Antichrist from "The Late Great Planet Earth" (1970):

"The way in which this dictator is going to step onto the stage of history will be dramatic. Overnight he will become the byword of the world. He is going to be distinguished as supernatural; this will be done by an act which will be a Satanic counterfeit of the resurrection. This writer does not believe it will be an actual resurrection, but it will be a situation in which this person has a mortal wound. Before he has actually lost life, however, he will be brought back from this critical wounded state . . . This man, this Antichrist, will probably not be known as a great leader until the time of his revival from the fatal wound. After that the whole world will follow him."

(Explanation: I believed in this stuff when I was 14. Back then, we thought it was Henry Kissinger.)
posted by FencingGal at 7:43 AM on October 5, 2020 [21 favorites]

After Biden’s Exposure to Trump, His Team Is Cagey on Health Questions

This is a NYT headline in the year 2020. Gotta both sides Joe down to Trump's level in any way you can lest the fascists call you a liberal rag.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:43 AM on October 5, 2020 [28 favorites]

The President’s latest tweetstorm, annotated:

PRO LIFE! VOTE!
[Reproductive slavery for women!] VOTE!
MASSIVE REGULATION CUTS. VOTE!
[Poison in your water!] VOTE!
SPACE FORCE. VOTE!
[Space Force, lol]
BEST V.A. EVER. 91% APPROVAL RATING. VOTE!
[I forgot this existed til now!] VOTE!
401(K). VOTE!
[All you’ll have left after I strip your Social Security and Medicare!] VOTE!
posted by disentir at 7:55 AM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

“Don Jr. Thinks Trump Is Acting Crazy”: The President’s Covid Joyride Has The Family Divided. "The president’s recklessness at Walter Reed has Don Jr. pushing for an intervention, but Ivanka and Jared “keep telling Trump how great he’s doing,” a source says."
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:58 AM on October 5, 2020 [22 favorites]

MASSIVE REGULATION CUTS. VOTE!
[Poison in your water!] VOTE!

Is it illegal to sell bottled Flint water (cutting regulations causing undrinkable water is a hoax) to MAGAhats telling them that it will support Trump and then donate every cent to getting every person in Flint clean water?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:59 AM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

What’s the bet that the reason Trump hasn’t been discharged is because even though Trump wants out, every single doctor knows that even if he’s stable now, if he decompensates outside of an advanced life support setting he probably will die. What’s the bet they can’t find anyone willing to sacrifice their career by publicly signing off on it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:03 AM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

Laugh as you will, but there have been ZERO outer space invasions since Trump announced the Space Force (Team Go!).
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:06 AM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

And discharged to where? If he goes back to the White House, there’s a ton of people working there that should not be exposed.
posted by azpenguin at 8:07 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

Every president has a secret Fortress of Solitude near the North Pole nearby Santa's workshop.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:10 AM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

Weijia Jiang (CBS News): BREAKING: White House Press Secretary @kayleighmcenany has tested positive for COVID-19.
posted by Dashy at 8:32 AM on October 5, 2020 [37 favorites]

Every president has a secret Fortress of Solitude near the North Pole nearby Santa's workshop.

So that's why Superman moved to the Bermuda Triangle.
posted by djeo at 8:33 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

McEnany's tweet begins with "after testing negative consistently" YES KAYLEIGH THAT'S HOW IT WORKS, everyone tests negative consistently until they're positive!
posted by BungaDunga at 8:37 AM on October 5, 2020 [81 favorites]

I'm real sick of them pinning this on Hope Hicks. I hate defending Hope Hicks but GODDAMN.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:38 AM on October 5, 2020 [25 favorites]

Don Jr. Thinks Trump Is Acting Crazy”: The President’s Covid Joyride Has The Family Divided

From the article linked above:

There is a long history in the Trump family of denying serious illness. According to a Trump family friend, Trump’s father, Fred Trump Sr., insisted on working even after his Alzheimer’s disease advanced in the 1990s. “To retire is to expire!” Fred Sr. would say. The friend said that as Fred Sr.’s disease worsened––he once came down the stairs wearing three neckties––the family created a system so that Fred could think he was still running the Trump Organization. Every day Fred Sr. would go to the office in Brooklyn and they would give him blank papers to sort through and sign. The phone on Fred’s desk was set up so that it could only dial out to his secretary. “Fred pretended to work,” the family friend said.

posted by HumuloneRanger at 8:39 AM on October 5, 2020 [39 favorites]

Hope Hicks is the new Meredith.

Much more likely that Mad King was patient 0, but they've put Hope out there as the sacrificial lightning rod.
posted by Dashy at 8:43 AM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

I'm real sick of them pinning this on Hope Hicks. I hate defending Hope Hicks but GODDAMN.
Tom Lehrer has some thoughts on this sort of thing.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:43 AM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

disentir: "The President’s latest tweetstorm, annotated:

PRO LIFE! VOTE!
[Reproductive slavery for women!] VOTE!
MASSIVE REGULATION CUTS. VOTE!
[Poison in your water!] VOTE!
SPACE FORCE. VOTE!
[Space Force, lol]
BEST V.A. EVER. 91% APPROVAL RATING. VOTE!
[I forgot this existed til now!] VOTE!
401(K). VOTE!
[All you’ll have left after I strip your Social Security and Medicare!] VOTE!"

THOSE ARE ALL GREAT REASONS TO VOTE! ... FOR BIDEN
posted by chavenet at 8:55 AM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH (BRING OUR SOLDIERS HOME). VOTE!
[Crush domestic resistance by deploying military troops on US soil!] VOTE!

Seriously. Vote.
posted by soy bean at 9:00 AM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

Weijia Jiang (CBS News): BREAKING: White House Press Secretary @kayleighmcenany has tested positive for COVID-19.

She is going to need a bigger binder.
posted by srboisvert at 9:01 AM on October 5, 2020

I almost don't believe it, because that's a singularly humane way to treat someone with dementia. Sure it's a bit sad, but letting dementia patients keep to their old schedules if they can is not at all a bad idea.

António de Oliveira Salazar, the authoritarian prime minister of Portugal, suffered a cerebral hemorrhage in 1968 and was near death. The president appointed a new PM and the government continued; unexpectedly, Salazar made a partial recovery and regained some degree of lucidity. He was not functional enough to return to office, so he was installed in an office and allowed to think he was still in power. Aides brought him papers to sign, he met with functionaries who listened politely to him, and he made radio broadcasts into a dead microphone. He died in 1970.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:01 AM on October 5, 2020 [48 favorites]

Man. Fuck that dude forever for being a fascist POS. Also, giving radio broadcasts into a dead mic is just so incredibly depressing to me.
posted by lazaruslong at 9:05 AM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

401(K). VOTE!

Who else lost their 401(K) employer match as an pandemic austerity cutback measure because of this president not controlling the pandemic?
posted by srboisvert at 9:10 AM on October 5, 2020 [42 favorites]

Also, giving radio broadcasts into a dead mic is just so incredibly depressing to me.

And yet the thought of tweeting to a million sycophant bot accounts and zero actual people fills me with joy.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:11 AM on October 5, 2020 [22 favorites]

things that may well come out of this pandemic is changes in liability when people make deliberate but voluntary health choices

The liability path I can invision is a tad different.

The Insurance Industry. They won't want to cover the care bills and if they can gather your maskless state at some point claim that is why you don't get covered. The long term care bills could then not be health care insurances problem.

All the tech exists and is only improving. Offer a discount of insurance to place face tracking capable store loss security that ties to credit card and affinity card use along with licence plate ID in the parking lot. The store can also get a kicker of face emotion tracking to attempt to fine-tune marketing. Toss in some body temp cameras in the mix. Mining of social media for all of its self-reported data. Eventually as an App in a phone to record yourself/others just like how one can obtain a car insurance discount with a car recorder from the company.

Tech examples:
helmet
Affective computing
emotion capture in China

The free market at work is what will be argued and as the elected officials have their healthcare path paid for why would they care enough to stop it?
posted by rough ashlar at 9:12 AM on October 5, 2020

"He has experience now fighting the coronavirus ... those first-hand experiences, Joe Biden doesn't have those."

JFC, these people talking about Covid like it's a Balrog and Trump is Gandalf or some shit.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:24 AM on October 5, 2020 [50 favorites]

I just read his little essay about learning first hand. This motherfucker. He has Fauci's phone number, which I suppose he could call any time of day or night in the last eight months. A phone call away, and in ten minutes he could at least get the bullet points. Masks? Turns out, wear 'em! Get your sharpie and write that down! You're learning like a big boy! Now call the CDC, get them to throw up a fucking powerpoint for you. They might have some good info, could be useful.

He has the resources at his disposal to be the most informed person on earth on the virus. He didn't like what the experts said though. Ignorance is bliss, until that ignorance gets you infected. Again, with the resources at his disposal to be the least vulnerable person on earth.

But oh! NOW the learning begins! By catching it. JFC
posted by adept256 at 9:26 AM on October 5, 2020 [47 favorites]

"He has experience now fighting the coronavirus ... those first-hand experiences, Joe Biden doesn't have those."

Okay, so we're going with "the best politicians have experience with their constituents' concerns"? I think that's an oversimplification since obviously one person can't literally experience everything, but let's take it as read. Why are we ruled by the rich, who have no experience with their constituents' concerns?

If Trump is a better president because he has experienced COVID, wouldn't an EVEN BETTER president be someone who, eg, had to work to pay their rent? Someone who knew how to buy groceries? Someone who has dealt with health insurance? Someone who actually had to learn to get and hold down a job? Someone who has taken care of a kid?
posted by Frowner at 9:31 AM on October 5, 2020 [59 favorites]

Oops apologies, I missed previous comment announcement.
posted by Chickenring at 9:31 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

But oh! NOW the learning begins! By catching it. JFC

But he's not gonna learn how expensive it is to be treated or becoming a long-hauler.

And how the hell was going out in the SUV to wave at the crowd a demonstration of this learning?

Quotes from Art of the Deal about truth seem to be at play here. I play to people’s fantasies. or from the ghostwriter “‘Truthful hyperbole’ is a contradiction in terms. It’s a way of saying, ‘It’s a lie, but who cares?’” Schwartz said.
posted by rough ashlar at 9:35 AM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

Laugh as you will, but there have been ZERO outer space invasions since Trump announced the Space Force

assumes corona virus didn't come from outer space
posted by philip-random at 9:47 AM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

Laugh as you will, but there have been ZERO outer space invasions since Trump announced the Space Force

Sometime in April I said if actual space aliens came down during one of Trump's Covid press conferences, beamed him to their ship and flew away in full view of everyone, it would be less harmful and more calming to the country than letting him continue the press conference. Now he's in the hospital and the rest of my premise remains the same.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:53 AM on October 5, 2020 [15 favorites]

In addition to Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany, two Assistant Press Secretaries have also tested positive.

McEnany's trip to last week’s Bedminster fundraiser was canceled after she had close contact with Hope Hicks, but she addressed reporters without a mask yesterday.
posted by mbrubeck at 9:59 AM on October 5, 2020 [21 favorites]

Rome learnt by experience. The population was controlled by plagues. To get as big as they did, they needed to take control. There was too much shit so they built sewers. The water was filthy so they brought in fresh water. The people were filthy so they made baths. There was lice, so short hair became the fashion. If you told them about masks, guess what they would do?

Who am I kidding? I bet while all this public health infrastructure was being built there were Romans complaining it was too expensive and unnecessary. They consulted some chicken guts to prove it. The real problem is the Jews. Or whatever, people have never changed.

I'm ranting. This is all getting to me.
posted by adept256 at 10:00 AM on October 5, 2020 [16 favorites]

bet we don't hear from the medical team until 4:01, at which time they'll report he's improving so well they want to keep him under observation at walter reed for the sake of medical science.
posted by 20 year lurk at 10:05 AM on October 5, 2020 [17 favorites]

But oh! NOW the learning begins! By catching it. JFC

By this logic anyone with diarrhea can do intestinal surgery.
posted by mark k at 10:06 AM on October 5, 2020 [17 favorites]

Trump has “experience fighting COVID” the way he has experience looking up at an eclipse w/out eye protection. This is why his followers love him. For the “toughness” he projects, even if it’s as real as his wealth.

Trumpism ticks off several of Umberto Eco’s 14 traits of “Ur-Fascism”, the core forms of fascism which keep returning and recombining.

9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. (aka “Be a killer, not a loser. Great Leader knows best.”)

10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak. (aka “Losers listen to experts, the weak put on protection.”)

14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. (aka “Trump just makes shit up and almost nobody challenges him on it”)

The GOP has been a cult of personality for 4 years, and it might cost the lives of several senior party members. And if The President survives, they will juice him like a racehorse with Mafia money betting on it so that he can stand up and say “I punched COVID like a wet liberal!” for the cameras.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:08 AM on October 5, 2020 [15 favorites]

> But oh! NOW the learning begins! By catching it. JFC

“Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other, and scarce in that.”

― Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack
posted by wildblueyonder at 10:10 AM on October 5, 2020 [42 favorites]

Dan Rather @DanRather
BEANS AND CORNBREAD. VOTE!
8:54 AM · Oct 5, 2020·Twitter for iPhone
12.1K Retweets 1.4K Quote Tweets 81.9K Likes
posted by Ahmad Khani at 10:20 AM on October 5, 2020 [35 favorites]

PERSON, WOMAN, MAN, CAMERA, TV, VOTE!
posted by Foosnark at 10:24 AM on October 5, 2020 [20 favorites]

Re experience: I want a dyke for president. I want a person with AIDS for president, and I want a fag for Vice President...

No lie, I’ve thought about this poem pretty much every day since I first saw it in the run-up to the 2016 election.
posted by ActionPopulated at 10:25 AM on October 5, 2020 [43 favorites]

In addition to Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany, two Assistant Press Secretaries have also tested positive.

Given how so many staff were kept in the dark early on, these daily COVID positive announcements could go on for some time couldn't they? I wonder if results for family members or friends will be kept private or not? Like will we ever know the full extent of the superspreader event(s)?
posted by gwint at 10:26 AM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Re experience: I want a dyke for president. I want a person with AIDS for president, and I want a fag for Vice President...

No lie, I’ve thought about this poem pretty much every day since I first saw it in the run-up to the 2016 election.

Same here.
posted by lazaruslong at 10:27 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

"He [Trump] has experience now fighting the coronavirus ... those first-hand experiences, Joe Biden doesn't have those."

Had they been given the opportunity, over 209,881 people in the USA would have gladly avoided that first-hand experience.
posted by cenoxo at 10:30 AM on October 5, 2020 [17 favorites]

Death is not the only bad outcome from COVID-19.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:42 AM on October 5, 2020 [43 favorites]

McEnany's trip to last week’s Bedminster fundraiser was canceled after she had close contact with Hope Hicks, but she addressed reporters without a mask yesterday.

It has been beyond infuriating watching her continually address the media without a mask, and inevitably we find out she has it. Whether by carelessness or ignorance she made the decision not to wear a mask, and further endangered the life of every person she came in contact with.

I know this isn't an unpopular opinion around these parts but there needs to be legal consequences for this type of behavior. Failure to take the most basic safety precautions after coming in contact with known positive cases needs to be a criminal charge. It might not be easily possible to prosecute people for breaking quarantine, but a public official addressing the media during a pandemic failing to wear a mask AFTER confirmed exposure to individuals testing positive is a criminal act and must be treated as such.

And the whole "I tested negative continually until positive" framing really shows they don't understand the precautions they need to take to prevent it spreading. As has been explained in the covid threads, the smart thing is to assume EVERYONE has it (including you) even if one is asymptomatic or tested negative yesterday and act accordingly. This should be the default public health message, since some assume that until they get a positive test, they can maybe relax safety precautions. With everything we know about the accuracy of tests, just because you test negative does not mean you shouldn't wear a mask to protect the lives of those around you. Amplify that responsibility by 100 for a WH official, and it honestly makes me sick how some of those in power are choosing to act.
posted by andruwjones26 at 10:45 AM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

Death is not the only bad outcome from COVID-19.

trying very hard not to say 'survival is definitely a bad outcome too (in some cases)'
posted by mazola at 10:45 AM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

Also, giving radio broadcasts into a dead mic is just so incredibly depressing to me.

Antonio Salazar: the first fascist in history to be shadowbanned.
posted by acb at 10:47 AM on October 5, 2020 [29 favorites]

Another attendee of the Rose Garden event has tested positive for COVID: Pastor Greg Laurie of Harvest Christian Fellowship in Riverside, CA.

You would think that all these super-Christians would take this as a sign from the Almighty that they should rethink the Barrett confirmation, but I guess they don't see the signs they don't want to see.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:52 AM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

Didn't expect a John Brunner mention in this thread. ... On second thought, this is all very Brunner.

Yeah, I'm thinking Stand on Zanzibar or The Stone That Never Came Down. Maybe The Sheep Look Up.

I don't know, it all kind of bleeds together at this point into a muddy pastiche what with the smoke and fires this year on the West Coast making everything look like a shot from Blade Runner 2049 and the pandemic and endless protests and the empty suit in the White House.
posted by loquacious at 10:53 AM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

It might not be easily possible to prosecute people for breaking quarantine, but a public official addressing the media during a pandemic failing to wear a mask AFTER confirmed exposure to individuals testing positive is a criminal act and must be treated as such.

Repeat quarantine breacher jailed after arriving in Perth from Queensland

Around half of the 106 charged to August 27 were convicted of failing to comply with a direction – 40 received fines ranging from $300 to $8000, a woman who hid in a truck from Melbourne was jailed for six months, and two men served a month behind bars while a young woman from Adelaide who escaped hotel quarantine received a suspended jail term.

The maximum penalty for the offence is 12 months jail or a $50,000 fine.

This is in Australia, currently at a tragic loss of 846. Jailing quarantine breakers is probably one of those not easily possible things like gun control or universal healthcare.
posted by adept256 at 10:56 AM on October 5, 2020 [21 favorites]

To avoid the law unfairly targeting the economically and socially disadvantaged, I would be fine with language limiting the legal consequences for negligently exposing others to COVID to only elected officials, political appointees, corporate executives, and other people with sufficient privilege to have had a meaningful choice in the matter.
posted by biogeo at 10:57 AM on October 5, 2020 [27 favorites]

Also: I suspect we won't hear about any more senators testing positive, because they're keeping a lid on that. They'll march a quorum's worth of them in, hopped up on amphetamines if need be, to get Barnett approved. After that, it doesn't matter if the entire Senate keels over: they have full-spectrum dominance for the next 50 years.
posted by acb at 10:57 AM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

You would think that all these super-Christians would take this as a sign from the Almighty that they should rethink the Barrett confirmation, but I guess they don't see the signs they don't want to see.

In that worldview, it makes as much sense to see this as Satan trying to stop the confirmation process, which means they should work harder at it.
posted by FencingGal at 11:05 AM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

One would also think that "My boss/co-workers knew they was infected, didn't tell anyone, and now I'm infected" would break through someone's loyalties, but I doubt we'll see much movement there. Hell, I'll be surprised if any substantial number of those donors at Bedminster change their views after this experience, too.

But I do think this is at least breaking through to some people at the margins, and that matters.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:09 AM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Also, giving radio broadcasts into a dead mic is just so incredibly depressing to me.

I too have a podcast.
posted by Servo5678 at 11:09 AM on October 5, 2020 [115 favorites]

ActionPopulated: "Re experience: I want a dyke for president. I want a person with AIDS for president, and I want a fag for Vice President...

No lie, I’ve thought about this poem pretty much every day since I first saw it in the run-up to the 2016 election."

that's really powerful, thanks for mentioning it. Had never heard of it.
posted by chavenet at 11:20 AM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

I know this isn't an unpopular opinion around these parts but there needs to be legal consequences for this type of behavior. Failure to take the most basic safety precautions after coming in contact with known positive cases needs to be a criminal charge.

That could easily backfire. Studies suggest that similar laws criminalizing HIV transmission may discourage people from getting tested for HIV or disclosing their status to healthcare workers.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:21 AM on October 5, 2020 [23 favorites]

People have already outlined the good reasons (and HIV precedence) against creating legal structures and enforcement of personal liability for spreading COVID, but let's not forget that a) we aren't talking about a bunch of individual decisions for the White House, we're talking about workplace policy, and b) the GOP keeps trying to insert language into their COVID relief bills to make employers not liable for spreading COVID in the workplace.
posted by deludingmyself at 11:29 AM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

This is in Australia, currently at a tragic loss of 846. Jailing quarantine breakers is probably one of those not easily possible things like gun control or universal healthcare.

Western Australia has been really strict about quarantine and it should be the model on how to handle COVID-19. There's been some scares but zero, ZERO community transmission since April 11th. April 11th. They started March 18th. 1 month in they had the virus locked down to isolation and quarantine. Their cases still tick up as visitors arrive and are diagnosed in quarantine but they've been doing surveillance testing and still can't find any. The state has for the most part reopened and kids are going to school safely.

I'm so glad my family are in Western Australia. Mark McGowan is a god damned hero and will never have to pay for a beer in the state again. I can't imagine having to go through what people here have been going through. I have a few inlaws here but most have the means to avoid exposure and the common sense to still sequester themselves from society as much as possible.

All Trump and Co had to do was something similar on a federal level in co-ordination with governors. Yes, there are some borders that cannot be easily closed (New England state borders for instance, try to close MA-NH border and you'd probably get riots) and the states needed to work together with federal help to form zones which could have movement to and from restricted depending on circumstance.

Their ineptitude knows no fucking bounds.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:33 AM on October 5, 2020 [36 favorites]

re: Brunner, I'm an optimist, I like to think we're all in a Peter Watts novel.
posted by Lonnrot at 11:35 AM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

For emphasis, Western Australia is ten times the size of Texas, and has had fewer cases since April than the White House in the last four days.
posted by adept256 at 11:38 AM on October 5, 2020 [20 favorites]

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention acknowledged Monday that people can sometimes be infected with the coronavirus through airborne transmission, especially in enclosed spaces with inadequate ventilation.
posted by Westringia F. at 11:41 AM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

For emphasis, Western Australia is ten times the size of Texas, and has had fewer cases since April than the White House in the last four days.

What? Western Australia has less than 10% of Texas's population. Maybe you meant land area, but that's largely irrelevant. More to the point, Western Australia has something like 7000 times the population of the White House.
posted by jedicus at 11:44 AM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

"DO NOT, MY FRIENDS, BECOME ADDICTED TO WATER..."
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:44 AM on October 5, 2020 [10 favorites]

Trump's tweeting he'll be released at 6:30 p.m. today, per WaPo alert just now
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:46 AM on October 5, 2020

Don't be afraid of Covid or let it dominate your life, Trump tweets to 210,000 unchill losers
posted by theodolite at 11:46 AM on October 5, 2020 [17 favorites]

For emphasis, Western Australia is ten times the size of Texas, and has had fewer cases since April than the White House in the last four days.

It also does not have as large a dose of the very American tendency to respond to requests to wear a cloth or paper mask, stand a short distance away from others, self-quarantine when in doubt, close obvious points of social congregation and think with compassion of one's fellow human beings by screaming TYRANNY! BLASPHEMY! COMMUNIST PROPAGANDA!, posting endless rants on social media about how masks are a Satanic / Soros conspiracy to RULE THE WORLD and turn all thinking human beings into sheep, and threaten violence and/or death against those making those requests.

I mean, I am positive that there are _some_ Western Australians who have reacted like that... but here in America, we are really fucking good at it.
posted by delfin at 11:47 AM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

So he returns to the White House with a doggy bag of the Good Drugs and then when it hits again he does what exactly? Return to Walter Reed? Try to manage it there?
posted by bookwo3107 at 11:48 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

I've always assumed that people move to Western Australia because they're serious about social distancing even when there isn't a pandemic.
posted by clawsoon at 11:48 AM on October 5, 2020 [45 favorites]

Trump's tweeting he'll be released at 6:30 p.m. today, per WaPo alert just now

What the fuck? Does he want to die?

If I'm a doctor at Walter Reed I wouldn't want my signature anywhere on his discharge paperwork. If Trump does leave this mortal coil the first scapegoat they can lay their hands on that "let Trump go back to the White House to die" is going to get doxxed and threatened beyond belief. They won't be able to live a normal life ever again.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:49 AM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

And if they prevented him from leaving on medical grounds and he died in there? Same outcome.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:52 AM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

Does anyone with knowledge have a guesstimate on when the steroids will most likely wear off? And how it feels when that happens?
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:52 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

According to Maggie Haberman, Trump's little ride yesterday was the result of compromise with the doctors.

He wanted to be discharged, they thought he wasn't ready, the little motorcade jaunt was the compromise agreed upon.
posted by flug at 11:53 AM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

Failure to take the most basic safety precautions after coming in contact with known positive cases needs to be a criminal charge.

I agree, but I'd structure it as a minimal charge with a BIG add-on or escalation, perhaps "hate crime" escalation, for those in roles of public leadership.
posted by Dashy at 11:54 AM on October 5, 2020

It's possible that by now the WH has been kitted out with all the equipment needed if he does need ICU level care.

Though it's also possible that he isn't doing too badly, and that the treatments have helped.

Something to be prepared for anyway, along with a bump in his popularity. Boris Johnson's approval jumped 6% when he recovered [CBC] - it did drop off within about a month, but as that's also the timeframe for the election.
posted by Buntix at 11:54 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

Once more:

[Willy Wonka, staring lazily at the scene] No. Don't. Stop.
posted by swift at 11:54 AM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

They won't be able to live a normal life ever again. Not really, -- they like Trumps who don't get dead. If he dies, that immediately makes him a has-been. Okay, not immediately but in something like 72 hours, at most after this election.
posted by rainy at 11:55 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

The new campaign slogan should recharge things: Hope Hicks: Bringing You Tomorrow's Typhoid Mary, Today!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:55 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

So now the horse wants OUT of the hospital?

I say let him go. Let him stagger around on the WH lawn, it will probably expose fewer people.
posted by emjaybee at 11:55 AM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

It looks like this won't be following Boris Johnson's experience in approval rates, though.

Polls show no signs of a sympathy bounce, and find most Americans don’t think Trump took the virus seriously.
posted by knotty knots at 11:57 AM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

It's also possible that he's just...getting better. There are a lot of sickly, inactive people his age who are hospitalized for a while for supplemental oxygen and other treatments and who then go home, and of course Trump has had far more and far more careful care than most people get. We'll just have to see. He's been sick for what, a week? It could go either way.

On the other hand, he may exhaust himself into a serious relapse since he obviously isn't going to rest.
posted by Frowner at 11:58 AM on October 5, 2020 [25 favorites]

You would think that all these super-Christians would take this as a sign from the Almighty that they should rethink the Barrett confirmation, but I guess they don't see the signs they don't want to see.

See, the problem is not teaching the Ten Commandments in school. Surely "Thou shalt not kill" trumps "our (supposed) Constitutional rights" about enforced masks and social distancing, right?
posted by trig at 12:02 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

What? Western Australia has less than 10% of Texas's population. Maybe you meant land area, but that's largely irrelevant. More to the point, Western Australia has something like 7000 times the population of the White House.

One of my favourite things to do when Texans start to boast about the size of their state is put on my most ocker Aussie strine and talk about "how bloody small" it actually is and how back home "we have electoral districts bigger than Texas".
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:02 PM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

What's with the periodic horse references?
posted by JenMarie at 12:03 PM on October 5, 2020

It’s from this John Mulaney bit.
posted by Happy Dave at 12:05 PM on October 5, 2020 [16 favorites]

Wasn't there a press conference by his doctors planned for right about now, or has that been cancelled and he's discharging himself at the exact time for it to be broadcast live on the evening news?
posted by monospace at 12:05 PM on October 5, 2020

cspan says the medical team press conference is live now, but the link shows night time still who knows where. the wapo shows the the same site as last address during day, but empty, with notation "live soon."
posted by 20 year lurk at 12:07 PM on October 5, 2020

Trump is undead and sucking the life force out of all of us.
posted by WeekendJen at 12:08 PM on October 5, 2020 [16 favorites]

Trump: Don’t be afraid of Covid. Don’t let it dominate your life. […] I feel better than I did 20 years ago!

200k (and counting) Americans could not be reached for comment
posted by Ahmad Khani at 12:09 PM on October 5, 2020 [50 favorites]

It looks like this won't be following Boris Johnson's experience in approval rates, though.

Here's hoping... because I'm thinking a 6% bump (along with the suppression, etc.) could put him over the top.

Also noticed on reading the article about Johnson more closely that the bump in his popularity may not have been due to him getting CV-19, the headline and article was just spinning it that way.
posted by Buntix at 12:12 PM on October 5, 2020

He's doing better.
posted by ipsative at 12:13 PM on October 5, 2020

"Don't be afraid of Covid. Don't let it dominate your life."

This must warm the heart of every blue-check liberal pundit who put aside petty partisanship to send prayers for this absolute prince of a man
posted by Beardman at 12:13 PM on October 5, 2020 [15 favorites]

Every doctor on the Reed team are honored to be a part of this.
posted by rhizome at 12:15 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

it'll be a White House where he will be expected to stay in isolation

I highly doubt this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:16 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

> Oh, man, I thought I was the only one annoyed by that. Come on, doc, just get on with the news conference.
posted by snwod at 12:17 PM on October 5, 2020

He's going home now? And he feels better than he has in 20 years, now that he's loaded up with steroids and other drugs?

This is the first time I've thought he really might die from this illness. But what bothers me most is the entirely wrong message his followers will get from all this.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:20 PM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

He'll be back on the campaign trail again ASAP: Make America Sick Again!
posted by Dashy at 12:20 PM on October 5, 2020

He's doing better.

Is he?
posted by Ahmad Khani at 12:21 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

When I think of poetic justice I don’t usually imagine a poorly metered haiku, but I guess it is what it is.
posted by wabbittwax at 12:21 PM on October 5, 2020

I just read his little essay about learning first hand.

There has got to be video of Trump saying "I know more about Covid than anyone" or "Nobody knows more about healthcare than me" or other words to that effect. Which of course was bullshit at the time but would really be highlighted by his sudden journey out of ignorance.

Canada has been civilly ticketing quarantine breakers since April (mostly Americans) but they have charge at least one person with criminal breach of quarantine which could result in six months and/or $750K fine. I'll let you guess where that person is from.

Something to be prepared for anyway, along with a bump in his popularity. Boris Johnson's approval jumped 6% when he recovered [CBC] - it did drop off within about a month, but as that's also the timeframe for the election.

I wonder how much that is simply a reflection of his name appearing repeatedly in the news. Trump is pretty well maxed out in that regard so the effect could be blunted.
posted by Mitheral at 12:22 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

Great, the negative ads can go back up for prime-time.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:22 PM on October 5, 2020 [21 favorites]

He has 10 doctors and two hospitals following him at all times.
posted by rhizome at 12:23 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

he will be expected to stay in isolation

Is there anyone left at the White House who isn't yet infected? I'm picturing him oozing down the hallways and burbling, "Don't be afraid of Covid," while staffers scatter.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:23 PM on October 5, 2020 [21 favorites]

I don't think Trump is out of the woods yet. He obviously has steroid euphoria. My Dad in the hospital last year was on corticosteroids and kept saying "I feel great! I don't understand why I'm here! I feel better than ever" A couple days later his condition worsened dramatically and shortly after that he passed away.

I find this all frightening because I don't want Trump to die. I don't want anybody to die. I want him to lose the election by a landslide and then spend his waning years fighting to stay out of prison.
posted by vacapinta at 12:24 PM on October 5, 2020 [86 favorites]

Dr. Conley: "There are dozens of therapies we've been made aware of."
posted by rhizome at 12:25 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

I wonder how much that is simply a reflection of his name appearing repeatedly in the news. Trump is pretty well maxed out in that regard so the effect could be blunted.

Funny, that’s exactly how I felt when I walked by an airport window in the 1980s, and saw a shiny new plane with the letters TRUMP on it.
posted by Melismata at 12:27 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

Beardman: ""Don't be afraid of Covid. Don't let it dominate your life."

As seen on twitter: Almost 210k likes in under an hour. The irony.
posted by chavenet at 12:29 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

He's doing better.

Is he?

Wellll sure in retrospect I should've added quotes.
posted by ipsative at 12:29 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

It could be that the Walter Reed doctors said, "We can only keep it quiet for so long that the President is out of his goddamned mind right now, bellowing insane rants about 'The Chinese are hiding NUCLEAR CODES in KUNG PAO CHICKEN' and 'Somebody get all these DUNG BEETLES off my BED' and 'I can FUCKING TASTE PURPLE', for so long before someone in the press hears them."

And Meadows shook his head and replied, "Fine, get him home. He can rant and rave all he wants there, and he'll have his phone. He'll be happy for as long as it lasts."
posted by delfin at 12:30 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

...This is not a scam website, it’s the real White House Gift Shop:

Oh my god - you HAVE to scroll down and read the Artist Note. I can't believe this shit is on the government website.
posted by sundrop at 12:33 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

The natural end state of a death cult is to accept the COVID as a blessing.
posted by benzenedream at 12:34 PM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

well, i stand corrected. again.
posted by 20 year lurk at 12:35 PM on October 5, 2020

Oh my god - you HAVE to scroll down and read the Artist Note. I can't believe this shit is on the government website.

There’s more? I’m still laughing at the top header: HISTORIC MOMENTS IN HISTORY
posted by mochapickle at 12:38 PM on October 5, 2020 [10 favorites]

...This is not a scam website, it’s the real White House Gift Shop:

Oh my god - you HAVE to scroll down and read the Artist Note. I can't believe this shit is on the government website.

My new design is informed by superhero graphic art because surrounding President Donald J. Trump is a mythos never before seen in a United States president, a mythos not unlike the Epic of Gilgamesh.

[actual text]

After Enkidu dies of a disease sent as punishment from the gods, Gilgamesh becomes afraid of his own death [...] Gilgamesh repeatedly fails the trials set before him and returns home to Uruk, realizing that immortality is beyond his reach.
posted by trig at 12:38 PM on October 5, 2020 [17 favorites]

If the medical wing of the White House has "everything" that Walter Reed does, why did Trump go to WR?
posted by rhizome at 12:38 PM on October 5, 2020

Across the wires the gloomy message came,
"He is no better; he is much the same."
(Attributed to Alfred Austin, Poet Laureate of England, upon the recovery of the Prince of Wales)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:40 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

Historic Moments in History
Final Commemorative Coin for President Trump's First Term
"President Donald J. Trump Defeats COVID"

Like the Challenger exploding, 9/11 and Kobe Bryant's helicopter crashing I'll always remember where I was the day Trump Defeated Covid. *wipes tear*
posted by Mitheral at 12:40 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

Me too! (I was in lockdown)
posted by trig at 12:42 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

I kinda want a space force coin though.
posted by WeekendJen at 12:42 PM on October 5, 2020

I was (looks at screen) on Metafilter.
posted by swift at 12:43 PM on October 5, 2020 [19 favorites]

We don't need new legislation making it illegal to media events after known exposure. We need states to enforce the social distancing laws they already have. We need Nevada to fine Trump personally (and sentence him to jail time, if possible) and fine every person who attended the Sep 14 rally in defiance of the law against gatherings of over 50 people.

We need cities and counties with social distancing laws to visit large indoor gatherings and make arrests. We need them to watch the doors at entrance and exit and snag unmasked people who aren't keeping themselves spaced out. We need cops willing to arrest a president who's breaking the law, just as they would arrest some kid trying to slash his tires.

We don't need new laws. We're drowning in laws that are used to target marginalized people while the wealthy and powerful break them with impunity. We need enforcement that's directed at criminals, not directed at whoever the cops dislike most right now. Laws won't fix a damn thing if you can't get the police to enforce them.

We need social distancing laws enforced at churches, at airports, at schools - place the chairs 6' apart and see how many people you can get in a classroom; inspect planes to make sure all people who don't live together are seated at least 6' apart from each other. (There's no federal guidelines for airlines... but there are requirements in most of the cities where they take off and land.) Find out who authorized packing planes with more people than can fit at 6' apart, and get the email chains of their discussions about it - and arrest them for conspiracy to violate safety codes.

Of course, all that only works if you have enforcers who serve the law, not the individuals currently in power. (We also need a drastic overhaul of the entire police system, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:44 PM on October 5, 2020 [26 favorites]

The line "Nixon's had an asshole transplant...they say the asshole's rejected him!" keeps going through my head on a loop.
posted by dragstroke at 12:45 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

Historic Moments in History
Final Commemorative Coin for President Trump's First Term
"President Donald J. Trump Defeats COVID"

I hope this is a "Dewey Defeats Truman" historic moment in history.
posted by essexjan at 12:45 PM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

“Don’t be afraid of Covid” is the most disturbing sentence I have ever read.
posted by argonauta at 12:47 PM on October 5, 2020 [31 favorites]

"Don't be afraid of Covid"? You had to be checked into a fucking hospital for three days! You should fear anything that does that to you.
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:48 PM on October 5, 2020 [10 favorites]

In my fantasy version of the next debate, question #1 to Trump is "How much do you think your hospital stay would have cost the average American?"
posted by deludingmyself at 12:52 PM on October 5, 2020 [65 favorites]

If the medical wing of the White House has "everything" that Walter Reed does, why did Trump go to WR?

There's a myriad of reasons. Disney's World of Sports has everything the NFL needs to continue a season in a bubble but that's a myopic look at the reality of what it take to run an NFL team. Not having your regular practice facilities, offices, space for the practice squad and all the players all adds up. Simply saying you have enough bedrooms for players and enough treadmills is not an accurate assessment.

In a similar manner Walter Reed isn't just about having a ventilator but the facilities for the doctors and support staff without having to get used to working in a historic building / office building / resident of the President and everything else associated with the West Wing. It is much easier to get the patient acclimated to Walter Reed than vice versa. There's also the issue fo the equipment in Walter Reed being used regularly, the support staff that manages all this being place. Even things like swapping out a heart monitor is something that I am sure is done all the time in Walter Reed and not at the White House. The more complex the equipment the more complex the solution.

I also doubt a lot of things are meant to be traveled with. I know a surgeon who works on some high tech equipment and wanted to create a travel version to make it accessible outside of major metropolitan areas. In theory he could pack up his OR in a semitruck and actually spend considerable money in professionally designing it to accommodate the equipment. Event talking to the CEO of the company who made the equipment about changing some of their designs to match it. They refused to do it or allow their equipment to be used in this manner. I'm not surprised the White House would have similar issues with advanced equipment being just moved into a non-hospital setting. Can it be done? Sure, and no one wants to be on the news saying they didn't want their product in the White House, but the reality is there's a whole supply chain in place to support Walter Reed and not a one off compound like the White House.
posted by geoff. at 12:52 PM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

"Don't be afraid of Covid" sounds much better when you have a Blue Oyster Cult melody backing it up.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:52 PM on October 5, 2020 [35 favorites]

It's also possible that he's just...getting better.

Every time I read a statement like this, I can't help but think of that scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, except that the old man is actually better and not just delirious, and it's not John Cleese uttering "No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment", then whacking him over the head.
posted by Stoneshop at 12:53 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

If I had a nine-person medical team, dedicated medevac unit, a hospital suite, immediate access to the latest treatments, and wouldn't pay a dime for any of it, I wouldn't worry that much about COVID-19 either.
posted by gladly at 12:54 PM on October 5, 2020 [30 favorites]

“Don’t be afraid of Covid” is the most disturbing sentence I have ever read.

Indeed. I suspect this will be a BIG talking point of his. "I beat it - it was a nothingburger". Completely avoiding the fact that he had a team of doctors working on him round the clock. In a special suite. That he doesn't have to pay for.

This talking point should dovetail nicely with the anti-masker movement.

"My staff? I don't know them"
posted by sundrop at 12:57 PM on October 5, 2020 [10 favorites]

There's a myriad of reasons. Disney's World of Sports has everything the NFL needs to continue a season in a bubble but that's a myopic look at the reality of what it take to run an NFL team. Not having your regular practice facilities, offices, space for the practice squad and all the players all adds up. Simply saying you have enough bedrooms for players and enough treadmills is not an accurate assessment.

Exactly. You can stuff everything into a room that would normally be in an ICU room but the White House wouldn't have all the ancillary stuff. You wouldn't have access to radiology, pathology, or a pharmacy like you would at Walter Reed.

The problem is if/when he starts decompensating things have to happen quickly. He can't just go down to the CT machine in the White House basement because there isn't one there. If they need surveillance cultures someone has to physically run them over to the nearest pathology lab instead of the guy down the hall. How many drugs have they sent him back with? What's going to happen if someone utters the words "if only we had..."?

If he wants the best chance of living there's a million good reasons to stay at Walter Reed. The first two being his age and his weight.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:59 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

Tim O'Brien, A humbling Herman Cain/coronavirus timeline:

6/24: Attends Trump rally, maskless
7/2: Tests positive for Covid-19
7/10: Says he’s improving
7/15: Says his doctors seem happy
7/27: Says he’s really getting better
7/30: Dies
posted by Dashy at 12:59 PM on October 5, 2020 [85 favorites]

I read somewhere yesterday that the White House is a very old building (well, I knew that), that the ventilation is bad and that too many people work there relative to the size of the building. Even if they manage to keep him in the residence, which is not likely given the last couple of days' events, it seems like this is going to be a huge problem for all of the staff. And there is nothing they, or we, can do about it, except to vote him out in November.
posted by mumimor at 1:01 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

I suppose the staff could quit, not that they should have to.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 1:04 PM on October 5, 2020

> it'll be a White House where he will be expected to stay in isolation

If you want to make Trump laugh, tell him about expectations, norms and protocols.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:05 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

Increasingly, he spends most of his time in the residence.
posted by mochapickle at 1:06 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

This is kind of a duh, but I talked to my stepdad, who is a retired physician, and he simply said “he’s on a steroid high.”
posted by Fleebnork at 1:09 PM on October 5, 2020 [29 favorites]

He's heading back to the White House, with its handy balcony for addressing fawning crowds from a great distance.

Mark Meadows may be too busy leaking stories to the press to run the WH: At the White House, an Eerie Quiet and Frustration With the Chief of Staff (Yahoo re-post of NYT, Oct. 5, 2020) In a memo to his senior staff Friday morning, Marc Short, Vice President Mike Pence’s chief of staff, encouraged everyone to stay away from their offices in the Old Executive Office Building while contact tracing was going on. On Saturday, he held an all-staff conference call to discuss what the coming weeks would look like while President Donald Trump remained under treatment for the coronavirus, and later reiterated the message that staff members were to work from home. At the Trump campaign headquarters in Virginia, Bill Stepien, the campaign manager who tested positive for the virus, instructed staff members to “wear a mask, wash your hands, socially distance, check in via the LiveSafe app on a daily basis and work from home if you’re not feeling well.”

Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff, delivered no guidance to the president’s aides about how they were expected to behave in a moment of crisis. [...] A number of staff members are either sick themselves or quarantining after being in contact with Trump or colleagues who have tested positive for the coronavirus. Some advisers, like Meadows and Dan Scavino, the deputy White House chief of staff for communications, have been at the hospital in order to remain in the president’s immediate orbit. Missing as well in recent days has been a deployment of West Wing staff members, including Pat Cipollone, the White House counsel, and some communications staff members like Julia Hahn and Ben Williamson, who have been working out of Pence’s office on Capitol Hill in preparation for the expected Supreme Court confirmation hearings for Judge Amy Coney Barrett. Pence himself was working from his residence over the weekend.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:09 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

> .This is not a scam website, it’s the real White House Gift Shop

But it's not an official US government gift shop. It's a gift shop called the White House Gift Shop.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:10 PM on October 5, 2020 [13 favorites]

I suppose the staff could quit, not that they should have to.

Absolutely. They shouldn't have to. Could this fall under OSHA?

Also, the WH residence staff won't have the same kind of PPE that hospital staff have. What, is the butler going to double-suit/mask/face-protect/glove up every time they have to go in there to bring him his stupid Diet Cokes and cheeseburgers?
posted by sundrop at 1:11 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

I suppose the staff could quit, not that they should have to.

Totally. Being cogs in a wannabe authoritarian machine isn't a lifestyle choice. It's who they are.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:11 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

Really? The household staff of the White House have made the lifestyle choice of being cogs in an authoritarian machine? I think they’re mostly very patriotic service professionals, and they deserve to survive to work for the next administration.
posted by la glaneuse at 1:15 PM on October 5, 2020 [56 favorites]

Presidents come and go, but the service staff remains the same.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:21 PM on October 5, 2020 [31 favorites]

Pulling a position off the top of my head, the White House Executive Chef didn't sign up for this. The current one got the job in 2005 (after working in the WH since 1995).
posted by BungaDunga at 1:22 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

Really? The household staff of the White House have made the lifestyle choice of being cogs in an authoritarian machine? I think they’re mostly very patriotic service professionals, and they deserve to survive to work for the next administration.

My bad, I thought we were talking about the second and third string West Wing staff.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:22 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Though that article's from 2015; the Trump Administration might've fired Obama-era staff.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:23 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

This conversation has strong "janitors on the Death Star" energy.
posted by Justinian at 1:23 PM on October 5, 2020 [36 favorites]

Quotes from the President's physician Dr Conley's press conference:
1) The President is "not out of the woods yet".
2) The President's unique experimental treatment regimen means we are in "uncharted waters".
And finally 3) "All our evaluations, and most importantly, his clinical status, support the president's safe return home."
Trump will head home tonight and receive the final dose of remdesivir, an experimental drug which has not yet been approved by the FDA for non-hospital use, at his home tomorrow. Literally no-one else in the country would be offered this treatment at home. He's a lucky boy.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:24 PM on October 5, 2020 [17 favorites]

This is kind of a duh, but I talked to my stepdad, who is a retired physician, and he simply said “he’s on a steroid high.”

Having been on dexamethasone for asthma-induced bronchitis many times in the past, I agree. I definitely feel like a million bucks... for a day or two. Good luck with that, Mr. Trump.
posted by muddgirl at 1:24 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

I hope for lots of things, but one of the things I hope for is for his next, like, 6 months to feature a steady trickle of EOB’s and random medical bills from out-of-network providers he’s never heard of.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 1:25 PM on October 5, 2020 [65 favorites]

Wait, Trump wants to go back to the White House? Sorry, I've been disconnected from the news for most of the weekend, so this is really surprising. And dumb. From what I've read people with Covid often have a relapse after about a week. If they're already in the hospital it's essential to monitor them at least that long because the relapse can be sudden and deadly.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:27 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

Wait, Trump wants to go back to the White House?

And his doctor agrees, or rather, is being paid to pretend to agree.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:28 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

They did. I believe the Chief Usher was a Black woman, and was fired.
posted by Melismata at 1:30 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

The doctors at WR, or at least Trump's doctors (I don't know about ALL doctors), are members of the military. They cannot refuse anything but an illegal order from Trump, and Trump being a reckless idiotic moron is not illegal.
posted by Justinian at 1:30 PM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

Does doc need to be paid? He's a military doc working for his commander-in-chief.
ditto
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:30 PM on October 5, 2020

It all makes me wonder in what state the White House will be provided to a future President (assuming there will be a future president) when it comes time for them to take occupancy. Is it possible to say with confidence that such a historic edifice is ever virus-free?
posted by newdaddy at 1:32 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

This conversation has strong "janitors on the Death Star" energy.

I suppose it's reasonable to compare the White House with a superweapon purpose-built to commit genocide if you are, say, a Native American or advancing their viewpoint, but that doesn't have much to do with Trump specifically. I hope you're not suggesting that the janitors, cooks, groundskeepers, etc. are complicit in Trump's crimes, or that we shouldn't care if they suffer. Let they who have actually quit their jobs in protest of Trump or in order to combat Trump, cast the first stone.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 1:32 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

This is kind of a duh, but I talked to my stepdad, who is a retired physician, and he simply said “he’s on a steroid high.”

This is exactly right. I just had a front-row view to one of these last week: last Monday, my dad had to go to the emergency room (nothing COVID related, fortunately). He's having some kidney issues so they didn't dare give him any of the usual painkillers to get his symptoms under control. Instead they gave him a mild steroid.

Once released, my dad felt AMAZING for the next two days, except for being basically unable to sleep, and then last Thursday when the steroids started to really wear off he felt like death.

Even discounting the apparently very good possibility that COVID is not yet done with Trump, he is definitely hopped up on a steroid high and so I expect round-the-clock ridiculous tweets for two days or so and then he'll crash, hard.

That's when we'll get to really see whether the doctors around Trump have any spine. Because I would wager he will demand immediate treatment as soon as he starts to feel the high wearing off. Will Trump spend the rest of his days demanding to be kept hopped up on a steroid high or will his doctors force him to ride it out?
posted by mstokes650 at 1:33 PM on October 5, 2020 [13 favorites]

The Reckless Idiot Moron lobby has made sure such actions stay legal (including your Second Amendment right to clean the inside of your gun barrel with your tongue).
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:33 PM on October 5, 2020

Trump's comms director is saying the president intends to participate in the debate on Oct 15. No specifics on in person or not, but if it's in person, he'll still be contagious.
posted by deludingmyself at 1:34 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

For your review: Contractors on the Death Star.

Please review the prior art so we're all on the same page inre the primary historical arguments before we restart the debate.
posted by kaibutsu at 1:35 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

Ah, I see the PR strategy is to challenge Biden to show up in person and then cast him as a wimp for not wanting to catch a potentially fatal disease.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:38 PM on October 5, 2020 [15 favorites]

Is it possible to say with confidence that such a historic edifice is ever virus-free?

Having grown up in a house not very much younger than The White House...jesus, I hope they have good mold abatement strategies.

More seriously, my recollection is that COVID-19 doesn't survive very long on surfaces, so if they delay moving the Biden family (ttcs) in by a few days, we should be good on that end. And they'll need that long to remove the almostly-certainly astonishing number of bugs that have been put in place, anyway. (Only joking a bit there.)
posted by kalimac at 1:38 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

if it's in person, he'll still be contagious.

Don't get me wrong, there are a host of reasons why it's a bad idea for him to be planning to attend the 10/15 debate, but current CDC guidance is that you no longer need to isolate once 10 days have elapsed from the onset of symptoms.
posted by la glaneuse at 1:39 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Don’t be afraid of Covid. Don’t let it dominate your life. […] I feel better than I did 20 years ago!

EMBRACE THE GIFT OF DEATH!
posted by acb at 1:40 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

This is so stupid. He's going to keep spreading the virus and put himself at great personal risk. Even for a malignant narcissist it makes no sense.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:40 PM on October 5, 2020

For your review: Contractors on the Death Star .

Please review the prior art so we're all on the same page inre the primary argument before we restart the debate.

(Thanks for posting this comment. I've seen Clerks before, but I didn't remember this scene. I think Justinian may have been on the same side as my comment, so I apologize for taking you in bad faith.)
posted by J.K. Seazer at 1:40 PM on October 5, 2020

As much as it pains me to say this the CDC cannot be trusted anymore. They've been Trumpified.
posted by Justinian at 1:41 PM on October 5, 2020 [12 favorites]

We need social distancing laws enforced at churches, at airports, at schools

A couple of weeks ago, I was in the Great Hall of Toronto's Union Station for the first time since the beginning of March. In the Before Times, there was seating around the edges of the hall for maybe eighty people. Mostly these seats had been turned to face the wall; in a hall of about 1.9 million cubic feet of volume, there was... one seat.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:41 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

No specifics on in person or not, but if it's in person, he'll still be contagious

Well, if he goes to the debate in person (which I fully expect him to), wouldn't he be breaking quarantine? And if he is, it's just another way for him to show the Covid-deniers and the anti-maskers that they don't have to follow the rules anymore. One way or another, this is not going to end well.
posted by sundrop at 1:42 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

"Don’t be afraid of Covid. Don’t let it dominate your life." That reminds me -- where is Dr. Scott 'pro-herd-immunity!-naw-just-kidding' Atlas?

The commission on presidential debates last issued a statement on Sept. 30, before the Trump COVID announcement. The in-person VP debate on Wednesday in Salt Lake City is still scheduled, though Pence should be self-isolating due to his plague-ship workplace.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:44 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

Trump's comms director is saying the president intends to participate in the debate on Oct 15. No specifics on in person or not, but if it's in person, he'll still be contagious.

This is reminding me a lot of a very important, very long court case from earlier this year that affected me even though I wasn't a party in it: I had no say, and literally nothing mattered until it happened in court.

In the same way, the president can intend all sorts of things but at this point I don't even care until the day of. He intends to do something? I'm sure the virus will take his opinion into account just as much as the judge did mine 🙃

Things resolved in my favor, BTW, days before the courts shut down with the pandemic. Which again shows that nothing matters until it happens in court. We could have easily been stuck waiting for a month or two until the online hearings started up.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 1:45 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

These are the current guidelines afaict:
- 10 days since symptoms first appeared and
- 24 hours with no fever without the use of fever-reducing medications and
- Other symptoms of COVID-19 are improving*

Would be nice if WH reports on things like fever and medications were believable.
posted by trig at 1:45 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

There’s more? I’m still laughing at the top header: HISTORIC MOMENTS IN HISTORY

Throw in a few misspellings/grammatical errors and you could have an Obvious Plant droplifted fake product.
posted by acb at 1:45 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

White House journalists should be recording any future press conferences or interviews with a FLIR camera.
posted by biogeo at 1:47 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

Is it possible to say with confidence that such a historic edifice is ever virus-free?

The White House isn't actually all that old, though. The reconstruction during the Truman Administration was basically a gut-rehab, so the interiors really only date back to the 1950s.
posted by HumuloneRanger at 1:47 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

But what about the kitchen staff on the Death Star?
posted by PhineasGage at 1:49 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

The White House isn't actually all that old, though. The reconstruction during the Truman Administration was basically a gut-rehab, so the interiors really only date back to the 1950s.

But the fifties are old in terms of building health and safety, because it was a period when a lot of unsound methods and materials were introduced. Also, in general the American approach to ventilation is something that scares me. It would be very fine if AC was maintained like it says on the warrants, but I don't think I've ever been in a building where it was. (I haven't been to a US hospital, but I have visited Congress like so many tourists)
posted by mumimor at 1:54 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

Justinian: "This conversation has strong "janitors on the Death Star" energy."

Wasn't Finn a janitor on the Death Star (er, "Star Killer Base")?
posted by chavenet at 1:56 PM on October 5, 2020

Given that the virus is destroyed by soapy water, shouldn't it be theoretically easy to deep-clean a building for it?
posted by acb at 1:56 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

As I expected, Twitter is abuzz with CHUDs cackling about how Trump is back to 100%, he kicked the Kung Flu's ass, liberals' heads are EXPLODING and Trump should donate his blood as a basis for a vaccine.

Uh-huh.

*checks watch*

I'll just wait over here.
posted by delfin at 1:56 PM on October 5, 2020 [27 favorites]

This conversation has strong "janitors on the Death Star" energy.

Space Janitors: "Like Dark Lord even knows we exist."
posted by eckeric at 2:00 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

I agree. Trump should donate ALL his blood for a vaccine.
posted by mochapickle at 2:00 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

What was it Wonka said? Oh yeah...

delfin: "No. Don't. Stop."
posted by chavenet at 2:01 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

I don't want Trump to die, I want him to lose the election and maybe go to prison. But right now it feels to me like his odds of dying have gone way up. If he does return to the White House he'll probably just go back to the hospital again in a few days when the steroids wear off.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:01 PM on October 5, 2020 [22 favorites]

rump should donate his blood as a basis for a vaccine.

Donate? What is this commie crap?

Trump should sell vaccines made from his blood, through the same web store that he sells MAGA hats and Trumpy Bears. Don't forget to price it appropriately; a lot of people would give their life savings for it, whether as a last hail-Mary for an ailing relative or just to give themselves immunity, immortality and superhuman pussy-grabbing powers.

Not really; that would be an utterly reprehensible thing to do. Though I wouldn't put it past him or his circle.
posted by acb at 2:01 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

Yeah, I've been noticing that the (Russian) trolls on twitter and reddit have been earning their pay today. Especially Reddit, where you just have to look at a Pro-Trump commenter's week old account age to make them suspect.

I begin to wonder if Trump's decision to move back to the White House is so he can have a secure line to his master, Putin.
posted by Catblack at 2:05 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

Kinda sus, ngl.
posted by signal at 2:07 PM on October 5, 2020 [15 favorites]

why did Trump go to the hospital in the first place??
posted by robbyrobs at 2:08 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

Especially Reddit, where you just have to look at a Pro-Trump commenter's week old account age to make them suspect.

I wonder if they're the accounts you see constantly reappearing under a new name and posting off-topic generic cute-cat pictures to specific cat picture groups to farm up some easy karma, before disappearing. I'm guessing somebody needs accounts with nonzero karma.
posted by acb at 2:09 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

why did Trump go to the hospital in the first place??

Because he was outstanding in his field?
posted by swift at 2:13 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

CNN senior political analyst David Gergen on Trump saying that people shouldn't be afraid of COVID-19: "We are in the grips of a madman... He's going to get a tremendous number of people killed."
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:22 PM on October 5, 2020 [43 favorites]

"We are in the grips of a madman... He's going to get a tremendous number of people killed."
Pretty sure I heard David Simon saying this in Charles Village Pub the day after the 2016 election.
posted by Harry Caul at 2:29 PM on October 5, 2020 [20 favorites]

I almost don't believe it, because that's a singularly humane way to treat someone with dementia. Sure it's a bit sad, but letting dementia patients keep to their old schedules if they can is not at all a bad idea.

Fred Senior didn't have a living will and they didn't have power of attorney. It was a cheap way to sideline him without having to have a legal battle.
posted by mightygodking at 2:29 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

The only thing I disagree with about that David Gergen quote is the tense.
posted by biogeo at 2:30 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

The commission on presidential debates last issued a statement on Sept. 30, before the Trump COVID announcement. The in-person VP debate on Wednesday in Salt Lake City is still scheduled, though Pence should be self-isolating due to his plague-ship workplace.

Anyone who believes that is a sweet summer child.

Alex Isendstat, POLITICO:
Harris team pushed for plexiglass, Pence team lobbied against it

Now Pence team punching back

“If Sen. Harris wants to use a fortress around herself, have at it,” -
@VPComDir

Said VP Communications Director is Katie Miller. The wife of Stephen Miller. The woman who contracted COVID back in May, then revealed her diagnosis a day after she spoke with reporters while unmasked.

Casting shade that if Harris's team wants even rudimentary protection from a deadly virus THAT WE KNOW MIKE PENCE HAS BEEN EXPOSED TO VERY RECENTLY, she is showing cowardice.
posted by delfin at 2:31 PM on October 5, 2020 [18 favorites]

The only thing we have to fear is ~~a deadly virus~~Joe Biden
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:32 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

Few deleted, let's not go down conspiracy "What if it's all fake?" rabbit holes. Thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:33 PM on October 5, 2020 [21 favorites]

"Sen. Harris is willing to take any reasonable precautions to avoid being temporarily incapacitated from her important duties as a Senator and as Vice President Biden's running mate. She is also determined to protect her loved ones and her respected colleagues from infection with this deadly illness. Vice President Pence is welcome to discuss his unwillingness to take his job seriously or to take minimal precautions to protect the health of people around him at the debate." (Suggested, not actual, response.)
posted by biogeo at 2:36 PM on October 5, 2020 [43 favorites]

Jaime Harrison brought his own Plexiglass barrier to the stage to debate Lindsey Graham and still owned that dude. I say Kamala brings one for herself and one for Pence, as a gesture of responsibility. He can refuse his if he wants, she uses hers.
posted by emjaybee at 2:42 PM on October 5, 2020 [47 favorites]

Citing anonymous inside sources, Vanity Fair's Gabriel Shermans says Trump's offspring are upset about his bizarre all-caps tweetstorm from earlier this morning. But they disagree on the wisdom of his Sunday drive in front of the hospital to wave at sign-bearers.

According to sources, Don Jr. has told friends that he tried lobbying Ivanka Trump, Eric Trump, and Jared Kushner to convince the president that he needs to stop acting unstable. "Don Jr. has said he wants to stage an intervention, but Jared and Ivanka keep telling Trump how great he's doing," a source said. Don Jr. is said to be reluctant to confront his father alone. "Don said, 'I'm not going to be the only one to tell him he's acting crazy,'" the source added.

One area where the family seems united is over the president's manic tweeting early Monday morning. After Trump sent out more than a dozen all-caps tweets, the Trump children told people they want Trump to stop. "They're all worried. They've tried to get him to stop tweeting," a source close to the family told me.
posted by robbyrobs at 2:42 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

I've been praying for Harris since she landed in SLC this weekend. Case-counts in Utah are climbing because BYU picked this year of all years to decide it was a party school after all.

If only someone could convince Pence that plexiglass would protect him from gIrL COoTiEz.
posted by armeowda at 2:45 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

convince the president that he needs to stop acting unstable

Acting unstable?
posted by kirkaracha at 2:50 PM on October 5, 2020 [13 favorites]

But it's not an official US government gift shop.

Thank you The corpse in the library. I checked the other pages, the FAQs, and looked for some kind of notification at the bottom of the page as is required for, y’know, political ads but I didn’t see anything and of course, I was all too ready to believe that the WH gift shop would’ve succumbed to the inescapable crassness of this administration.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 2:50 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

It's going to be an interesting 48 hours...
posted by Windopaene at 2:51 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

I don't understand who the fuck is in charge of these debates. It is absolutely insane to continue to float these as viable. Nothing is gained from these things, anyway, and the fact that whoever puts them on (yeah, I know, I could search this and find out, but...) is maintaining this absurd, malevolent fiction that they should go on like some kind of danse of the macabre is just. Take 'em out back and have a conversation.

Ugh, god, I just want one of these plague rats to get so sick they can't function. They're responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths that could have been prevented, even more who are now debilitated for life, and they suffer no fucking consequences.

And then the debate idiots keep this sinking ship afloat so the rats have something to eat.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 2:51 PM on October 5, 2020 [12 favorites]

Imagine being so far from your senses that Don Jr. is your conscience.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:52 PM on October 5, 2020 [63 favorites]

Finally a pleasant digression of trivia and history! From what I understand the Truman restoration did gut the White House but also preserved and re-used as much of the interior materials as it could. In general that building is a ship of Theseus with carefully-preserved scorch marks from the War of 1812 alongside secret infosec devices so classified I might be on a list just from speculating about them.

On that note, while the Obama remodeling is thought to have built a new bunker on the north side of the West Wing, it was officially about modernizing the HVAC system and related improvement. So if the cover story was partially true it's probably pretty good for ventilation now.
posted by traveler_ at 2:53 PM on October 5, 2020 [13 favorites]

Casting shade that if Harris's team wants even rudimentary protection from a deadly virus THAT WE KNOW MIKE PENCE HAS BEEN EXPOSED TO VERY RECENTLY, she is showing cowardice.

This is easily dispensable, even for federal Democratic candidates: Pence, like Trump, expects others to protect themselves from him. This has failed more than 205,000 times so far. He is unwilling to take even the most basic steps to protect everybody around him, so look out world: you take your life into your own hands with Trump and Pence.
posted by rhizome at 2:54 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

(Suggested, not actual, response.)

Come on, say this at the beginning, I don't want to read people's fanfic
posted by JenMarie at 2:57 PM on October 5, 2020 [80 favorites]

Sounds Like A Great Place To Work

Multiple White House sources told ABC News there is "a full-blown freak-out" in the administration waiting to see who will be next to test positive -- with aides not trusting each other and some trying to find ways to avoid coming into work at all. “Because we’ve had some cases in the West Wing, more people are working remotely today than in previous days, and that’s the way the process is supposed to work,” White House deputy press secretary Brian Morgenstern said Monday afternoon.

The sources added that there weren't many staffers in the West Wing Monday afternoon and there was a lot of regret for not taking the coronavirus more seriously by not wearing masks and social distancing regularly.

You guys sure did own the libs, though. Good job.

Aside from all of the other scary things about IMPOTUS going back home and infecting people, it's pretty frightening to think that many the people who would normally keep him on the rails will be literally phoning it in.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:59 PM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

So are they just gonna keep him hopped up on steroids until he either collapses or actually gets better?
posted by Max Power at 3:02 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

This conversation has strong "janitors on the Death Star" energy.
During Gulf II, I remember an interview with a woman seaman on an aircraft carrier. Her job was to fill soda machines. 12 hours. Every day.

posted by j_curiouser at 3:04 PM on October 5, 2020 [12 favorites]

I’ve probably had over 100 zoom work meetings since March. Why do they have to have these debates in person?
posted by piyushnz at 3:05 PM on October 5, 2020 [20 favorites]

So are they just gonna keep him hopped up on steroids until he either collapses or actually gets better?

If you know of a better way of lowering corporate tax rates, I'd like to hear it.
posted by bookwo3107 at 3:05 PM on October 5, 2020 [24 favorites]

It kind of looks like it, Max Power. Nobody, not even his doctors, wants to say "no" to Trump. The only way they can get back to treating him properly is if he has some kind of major relapse and is too scared or unconscious to countermand their decisions.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:08 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

Somewhere about a thousand comments ago, I’m pretty sure I said the two options were he dies, and becomes some sort of martyr for lunatics. The other option was that he recovers and walks around saying corona isn’t so bad, and immediately makes people feel like they can stop wearing masks and having some fucking common sense in a goddamn pandemic.

It’s not like I can see the future, and I certainly wasn’t the only one saying that, it’s that Trump is so pathetically predictable as to be an active liability to the nation. Foreign leaders have shown it’s ridiculously easy to get him to do what they want by playing to his ego. And now, he’s evidently on the variety and dosage of drugs that would get your car keys taken away by any rational doctor, but hey, let’s let the guy on steroids and drugs that cause irrational euphoria go back to signing papers while others run the country.
posted by Ghidorah at 3:08 PM on October 5, 2020 [21 favorites]

Oh, this is interesting: Nearly One-Third of Covid Patients in Study Had Altered Mental State (NYTimes)

These patients stayed three times as long in the hospital as patients without altered mental function.

After they were discharged, only 32 percent of the patients with altered mental function were able to handle routine daily activities like cooking and paying bills, said Dr. Igor Koralnik, the senior author of the study and chief of neuro-infectious disease and global neurology at Northwestern Medicine. In contrast, 89 percent of patients without altered mental function were able to manage such activities without assistance.
Patients with altered mental function — the medical term is encephalopathy — were also nearly seven times as likely to die as those who did not have that type of problem.

posted by mumimor at 3:09 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

This is easily dispensable, even for federal Democratic candidates: Pence, like Trump, expects others to protect themselves from him. This has failed more than 205,000 times so far. He is unwilling to take even the most basic steps to protect everybody around him, so look out world: you take your life into your own hands with Trump and Pence.

Someone who brings Mother everywhere he goes to protect him from women should not throw any stones at all.
posted by srboisvert at 3:10 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

Still, there are some “safety” rules that Pence does take seriously. The 61-year-old vice president reportedly does not allow himself to eat meals alone with women who are not his wife.
As always the Guardian throws some excellent shade
posted by piyushnz at 3:11 PM on October 5, 2020 [23 favorites]

Why do they have to have these debates in person?

A lot of people make a bunch of money arranging, staffing, coordinating, broadcasting, etc. It's an industry. That industry is the same people who work the campaigns, the people who run networks that needs ad buys, and who have the ear of the candidates. It's irrelevant that the debates change no minds and serve only to endanger people, they're an opportunity for entertainment. It's like "why have to superbowl" - people pay for it and not having them leaves money on the table.
posted by mrgoat at 3:13 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

Wondering at what point he is incapacitated enough that they have to go to his Health Care Proxy (Melania? Ivanka?) for direction. Prior to the shutdown I volunteered with dementia patients so this kind of thing is always at the top of my mind.
posted by andreap at 3:13 PM on October 5, 2020

I would bet that dipshit lobbied for discharge from this hospital against the doctors' advice and was so stupid and tantrum-y about it that the WR people went, "fuck it." Now it becomes an issue for the doctors at the WH. We're never going to know the full story.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 3:13 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

It's going to be an interesting 48 hours..
Indeed. I can't wait to see how the market responds to their paranoid germaphobe narcissist when he slides the razor's edge coming off the corticosteroids at 74.
posted by Harry Caul at 3:13 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

And, from the deepest, most heartfelt part of my soul, FUCK Don Jr., who has just announced to the world that he is a complete and total coward. For once in his life, even if the motive is self-serving and trying to preserve the brand that is the only viable source of income in his life, he actually came across the right thing to do, but he’s too chickenshit to do it alone.

I mean, obviously fuck Jared and Ivanka. Jared, a failson without peer, probably wouldn’t know the right thing if it ripped his head off and screamed “I’m the right thing” down his neck hole, but I’m willing to be Ivanka knows it’s time to have a talk with daddy, but is too concerned about getting the last bits of grift in while she can. Daddy’s true heir, through and through.
posted by Ghidorah at 3:13 PM on October 5, 2020 [19 favorites]

None of trump's actions post-Covid diagnosis have been irrational if the sole metric one judges them by is how best to keep his name in the papers. I'm eerily reminded of the last few weeks of the 2016 campaign when all the networks would cut away from whatever programming they were running to breathlessly cover his every fumbling misstep and incoherent ramble. Surely they won't fall for that agai—

BREAKING NEWS: We now take you live to the sidewalk outside of Walter Reed where the president is being rolled out on a wheelbarrow to sputter and wheeze for five minutes in the sun.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:25 PM on October 5, 2020 [12 favorites]

Trump announces he will leave hospital on Monday evening – live

from the Grauniad. Not live was the other option.
posted by chavenet at 3:28 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

Don Jr. doesn't do shit without daddy's approval (or engineered to get it). Where's Steve Bannon these days?
posted by rhizome at 3:33 PM on October 5, 2020

And, from the deepest, most heartfelt part of my soul, FUCK Don Jr., who has just announced to the world that he is a complete and total coward.

What is this a response to? I feel like I need a decoder to read this thread.
posted by JenMarie at 3:37 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

White House aides have been setting up lights near the main entrance to Walter Reed, in advance of Trump's planned departure. It's pretty likely we'll be seeing dramatic footage of this event in campaign ads within the next day or two.
posted by theory at 3:38 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

Pretty sure Bannon is in jail, or out on bail.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:38 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

Indeed. I can't wait to see how the market responds to their paranoid germaphobe narcissist when he slides the razor's edge coming off the corticosteroids at 74.

With today's gains after the weekend shitshow, I'm beginning to feel that 'the market' is ready for and anticipating a Biden presidency—thank goodness.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:39 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

The Donald always exaggerates/praises whatever makes him look good, and minimizes/dismisses whatever makes him look bad. His symptoms may have been relieved enough to return to the White House, but he has not been cured of (nor inoculated against) COVID-19 and is still at serious risk.

From the article Donald Trump receiving Covid-19 treatment yet to be peer-reviewed — President’s doctor reveals treatment with experimental antibody cocktail REGN-COV2, The Guardian; Melissa Davey, Ian Sample, agencies; 10/3/2020:

...Dr Barry Dixon, an intensive care doctor at St Vincent’s hospital in Melbourne, said Trump’s risk would increase if he developed pneumonia, which is associated with a high mortality rate, especially in patients over 65 and those with cardiovascular disease or conditions affecting blood vessels of the brain. “He’s at a much higher risk of dying if he does develop that bad pneumonia,” Dixon said. “There are other risk factors and comorbidities, such as whether you are a heavy smoker, have diabetes, or have heart disease.

Dixon said mild symptoms at the onset did not indicate someone would avoid more severe disease. He said around the one-week mark people either seemed to improve or decline rapidly. “We tend to see people with very mild symptoms for the first week, that is typical, and in the second week typically people either develop pneumonia or not,” he said.

“If you see someone who just got it, they’ve just tested positive, typically they look well. But we would tell those patients to isolate at home and to come to hospital if they feel short of breath. Because in that second week of the virus, people can go from looking very good to pretty rotten even over just 24 to 48 hours. It’s a quick deterioration, and that’s what we saw with Boris Johnson.”...

Boris was lucky and survived, but will The Donald? Like he says, we’ll just have to wait and see what happens.
posted by cenoxo at 3:46 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

I don't think the no mask, no plexiglass, no precautions approach will play as well as they expect with republicans. My parents are right-wing AM radio listening (R) voters, but have still been diligent about mask wearing, distancing and hand-washing since March. His campaign events may be full of trolls and sycophants who love the macho schtick, but the actual GOP base is a bit broader, esp. in swing states, and this conduct will be seen as reckless endangerment by some, if not many, of their own supporters.
posted by p3t3 at 3:48 PM on October 5, 2020 [15 favorites]

Claudia Conway comments on TikTok:

guys lmao he’s not doing “better”

he is so ridiculous. apparently he is doing badly lol and they are doing what they can to stabilize him
posted by BeginAgain at 3:55 PM on October 5, 2020 [12 favorites]

The Don Jr. stuff is in response to this, upthread. I do feel you about the need for a decoder, though.
posted by Lonnrot at 3:56 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

With whom should I speak if I wanted to find some funding for my reality show where five not-as-rich-as-they-think children fight over who is top of the family's crumbling pyramid scheme when their father dies from a pandemic of his own making. Anyone?
posted by terrapin at 3:59 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

There's still time to nominate Claudia Conway for a Nobel Peace medal
posted by ocschwar at 3:59 PM on October 5, 2020 [28 favorites]

Thanks, Lonnrot, that is not a clear line at all. So I guess the implication is that Don Jr is a coward for not confronting Trump Sr on his own? I mean Don Jr sounds like a sniveling fool but that's one choice I see his point on, if he's the only one his dad is more likely to ice him out than listen.
posted by JenMarie at 4:00 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

With today's gains after the weekend shitshow, I'm beginning to feel that 'the market' is ready for and anticipating a Biden presidency—thank goodness.

The markets have been running on denial and greed for years now. They dropped when the shutdowns started and there was a chance of consequences for stuff, but the government propped them up and there's no reason for them to expect any change now. You can see it in yesterday's futures and today's numbers. I would not look to the stock market as an indicator of anything.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:01 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

The COVID-19 at the White House tracker is up to 277 contacts, 25 identified as positive.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:03 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

I do feel you about the need for a decoder

Wait — this is Metafilter. Don’t we get universal decoder rings when we join?
posted by cenoxo at 4:03 PM on October 5, 2020

Also worth noting re: Claudia Conway: If you look at her TikToks, she drags the fuck out of Twitter and mainstream media for looking to a 15-year-old as a source. She would probably be dragging us, too.

I really feel for that kid and all the bullshit she has to deal with but I am 100% here for her Maybe Adults Should Do Their Fucking Jobs energy.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:04 PM on October 5, 2020 [71 favorites]

Jackass just made a big show of taking off his mask before he marched into the residence.
posted by armeowda at 4:05 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

Trump's arrived back at the White House. He's wearing a mask in the photograph. It's 29 days to the election.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:05 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

A lot of people make a bunch of money arranging, staffing, coordinating, broadcasting, etc. It's an industry. That industry is the same people who work the campaigns, the people who run networks that needs ad buys, and who have the ear of the candidates.

That industry also very much includes local businesses who are renting the debate commission (or, technically, their contractors) stages and media risers and and barricade and massive numbers of generators and miles of electrical power distribution and big tents and trailers and audio gear and lighting and labor to set it all up and take it down and venue staff and janitorial staff and catering and hotels and and and . . .

Christ, I don't wanna sound like the guy defending the excesses of NFL owners because "football dumps a lot of money into the local economy" but . . . big political events dump a lot of money into the local economy, even a scaled-down COVID version of big political events. And largely segments of the economy that have seen almost no work or income since March.

Not saying this is an excuse to have the event in person, but there's more to it than fat cats who have the ear of the candidates making bank.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:06 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Also worth noting re: Claudia Conway: If you look at her TikToks, she drags the fuck out of Twitter and mainstream media for looking to a 15-year-old as a source. She would probably be dragging us, too.

And rightly so. We're their elders.

We fucked up. She, and Greta Thunberg, and David Hogg, and that whole cohort has every right to slap every single one of us.
posted by ocschwar at 4:06 PM on October 5, 2020 [30 favorites]

I already have my mail in ballot
posted by robbyrobs at 4:07 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

He arrived home, immediately took off his mask, and two White House photographers appeared adjacent to him to immortalize the occasion, neither of them being immortal themselves. This is the behavior of a non-metaphorical cult leader who claims that his powers have cured him of a disease.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 4:09 PM on October 5, 2020 [24 favorites]

During Gulf II, I remember an interview with a woman seaman on an aircraft carrier. Her job was to fill soda machines. 12 hours. Every day.

When I worked at a summer camp, one of my jobs was filling the soda machines. Aircraft carrier has about 5000 people, and 1 machine per hunderd people, that's 500 soda machines to fill. Figure you don't do them every day, but rather a couple of times a week, and the labor involves loading a handtruck/u-boat with the from wherever it's stored and hauling it to the machines. That's not including coolers. Maybe you do a lap to inventory the machines and get a rough idea of what you need...

But yeah, that's a full time job, for at least 2 people.
posted by mikelieman at 4:11 PM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

It's times like this when I like to remember how terrible the thing was with Hillary Clinton's email server
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 4:15 PM on October 5, 2020 [78 favorites]

Donald Trump Jr. has political ambitions and the "leaked" story about how he totally wants to keep Trump in check, but Jared and Ivanka are stopping him, is just an attempt to paint himself as the reasonable Trump child and build a legacy past his father's administration. Don't read it as anything but PR.

Here's a good NYT podcast / article about his rising profile in the GOP:
"Donald Trump Jr.'s Journey to Republican Stardom"
"Donald Trump Jr. Is Ready. But for What, Exactly?"
posted by Emily's Fist at 4:20 PM on October 5, 2020 [26 favorites]

Any news/update regarding Melania Trump??
posted by robbyrobs at 4:33 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

Y'all need to watch this Biden ad. It'll make you feel a lot better. Promise.
posted by azpenguin at 4:36 PM on October 5, 2020 [57 favorites]

It's times like these I like to remember how of full of himself Obama was, what with that mustard business.

White House rebuffed CDC offer to lead contact tracing investigation of Trump outbreak (USA Today, Oct. 5, 2020) The White House Medical Unit declined an offer of assistance from the CDC’s leadership during a Monday morning phone call, according to multiple sources within the agency. CDC Director Robert Redfield has been offering the agency’s help since Trump’s diagnosis was disclosed on Friday.

Maybe it's partly a respect issue: The CDC grudging admits COVID-19 can "sometimes" be spread by airborne transmission.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:37 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Biden has no need for the debates. Trump is losing and desperately does.

Biden should demand that Trump be placed in a plexiglass box or the debate is off. For the townhall, they can put Trump in one of those giant plastic hamster balls to roll around on stage.
posted by JackFlash at 4:39 PM on October 5, 2020 [43 favorites]

He's heading back to the White House, with its handy balcony for addressing fawning crowds from a great distance.

Can you even see the balcony from the street now that the Great Trump Containment Wall is in place around the Whitehouse?

Is it possible to say with confidence that such a historic edifice is ever virus-free?

One of the few good things about Covid so far is it doesn't persist much past a couple weeks on surfaces even without active decontamination; most only a couple days. You can just put any building in quarantine and be ready go in a short while.

All the bugs (listening devices) that have been installed by having one or more Russian intelligence assets living there are going to take a lot longer to sweep away.

I hope you're not suggesting that the janitors, cooks, groundskeepers, etc. are complicit in Trump's crimes, or that we shouldn't care if they suffer.

I actually feel bad for these people. They are at one of the pinnacles of their professions and they have to deal with this shit storm. They were probably so happy when they landed their positions pre-Cheeto and now they dread going to work.

Will Trump spend the rest of his days demanding to be kept hopped up on a steroid high or will his doctors force him to ride it out?

It's interesting to compare this to other dictators and wannabees who final days so often feature, uh, interesting cocktails of assorted drug regimens. Like Trump they can't bully whatever affliction ails them so maybe they turn to goofy hail marys.

Hitler was famously strung out on opiates and coke with a side dish of hormones. I always had in my mind for some reason that this was the doctors fault but it is obvious now that there isn't really any controlling people like Trump. He'll be hitting that drug button like a rat in a substance abuse experiment.

That industry also very much includes local businesses who are renting the debate commission

But if they did the debates from separate locations they'd procure all that stuff X2-3. Plus you'd add on at least two teleconferencing teams. Or geez at the same facility just in two separate rooms. There are options besides standing on the same stage 12 foot 6 and 1/2 inches apart with nothing but poorly circulating air between them.

Some of these people have never been even slightly inconvenienced in their entire lives and it shows.
posted by Mitheral at 4:42 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

Y'all need to watch this Biden ad. It'll make you feel a lot better. Promise.

You have *no* idea how much I needed to see that. Thank you!

100% more corgis than any trump ad, ever.
posted by hydra77 at 4:43 PM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

JFC, he managed to dominate the news cycle for four fucking days straight. We went from talking about his taxes and the republicans ramming a Supreme Court justice through the senate to wall-to-wall Trump. This is 2016 all over again.

I’m signing off for awhile. Good luck and Godspeed.
posted by photoslob at 4:49 PM on October 5, 2020 [29 favorites]

Erin Burnett on CNN compared Trump's helicopter arrival/mask off wave to North Korean propaganda.

So he's got that going for him.
posted by chavenet at 4:49 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

This is 25th-able, I dare say.
posted by vrakatar at 4:53 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

2020: We need more overt acts of symbolism that can be construed on multiple levels
The Writers: We gotchu fam!
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:54 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

on a very special This Week in Virology, recorded today, clinician Dr. Daniel Griffin and host Vincent Racaniello discuss the case of the president.
posted by 20 year lurk at 5:00 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

Aaaaaannnnnnnd of course they're still trying to rush a vaccine in time for Election Day.

White House Blocks New Coronavirus Vaccine Guidelines.

[WHY Chief of Staff] Meadows raised a series of concerns, a senior administration official said. He questioned the need for two months of follow-up data, said that stricter recommendations would change the rules in the middle of clinical trials and suggested that Dr. Hahn was overly influenced by his agency’s career scientists (emphasis mine).

posted by PhineasGage at 5:00 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

@ZackBornstein: We love to breathe oxygen normally don’t we folks
posted by Atom Eyes at 5:01 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

So, I watch the various Star Trek shows on H&I most nights. Tonight's original series episode is Patterns of Force, in which a Starfleet officer recreates Nazi Germany on a planet and is subsequently propped up, heavily drugged, in propaganda videos put out by his underlings so they can keep power.
posted by dirigibleman at 5:02 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

@brenonade: trump appears to be wincing in pain while he breathes
posted by Atom Eyes at 5:02 PM on October 5, 2020 [13 favorites]

He's just reacting to that little voice behind him whispering "memento mori."
posted by Kevin Street at 5:09 PM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

He really needs to go back to the hospital.

From the full video, it looks like how a normal underexercised 74 year old might feel after a large flight of stairs when it’s like 106 degrees out and he’s been boiling for hours in a suit and mask. It’s 63 degrees in DC right now.

If he feels great now, I can’t imagine how it’ll hit him when the steroids wear off.
posted by mochapickle at 5:12 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

vrakatar: “This is 25th-able, I dare say.”

It's been 25th-able for years at this point. Which is why the whole current and former cabinet, as well as the majority of congressional Republicans, and scores of judcial appointees all have to face justice for their misdeeds along with the Trump Crime Family.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:12 PM on October 5, 2020 [35 favorites]

Holy shit, those clips of him trying to breathe are painful to watch. I've been super sick for a week and a half now, and should probably get tested, and even my crackly ass lungs are working better than that.

Also, I've been isolating from my family (one of whom got me sick to begin with because I don't go out) since I may or may not have COVID and it's the right thing to do. Since I also have no direct political experience, I am now officially more qualified to run the country than the actual President.
posted by Ruki at 5:15 PM on October 5, 2020 [32 favorites]

Hitler was famously strung out on opiates and coke

Not to mention Pervitin, a methamphetamine invented for military use and credited with making the Nazis' Blitzkrieg advances possible. Of course, if it can enhance the alertness and fighting ability of an ordinary soldier, der Führer had to have some, and one does not say no to der Führer.
posted by acb at 5:22 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

I'm thinking of asking my doctor if I can be intubated and sedated until after the pandemic just out of an abundance of anxiety.
posted by srboisvert at 5:22 PM on October 5, 2020 [46 favorites]

During Gulf II, I remember an interview with a woman seaman on an aircraft carrier. Her job was to fill soda machines.

Wasn't this in This American Life, when Ira visited the Stennis?

the White House, with its handy balcony for addressing fawning crowds from a great distance.
Can you even see the balcony from the street?

Dunno, I haven't been back home for a couple years, but I do believe no modern president's ever made a speech from that porch.
posted by Rash at 5:24 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

“Now I’m better, and maybe I’m immune! ... Get out there... The vaccines are coming momentarily.”
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:26 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Now he will be killing people while looking them in the face. He’ll still be able to see their eyes.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:28 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

He thinks he's better? Did the doctors tell him that? He's still infectious!
posted by Kevin Street at 5:29 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

Yeah, those videos of Trump before he went into the residence apparently in respiratory distress were chilling. He didn’t look good. My wife (ER nurse) was aghast. Did he make any comments or speak for any length?

I wouldn’t want to be Dr. Conley. There’s going to ber a lot of sleepless nights for the WH medical staff in the next 48-72 hours. I suspect they will continue the remdesevir and dexamethasone.
posted by sudogeek at 5:31 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

I ... actually feel sorry for him watching him breathing so painfully. Argh.
posted by aesop at 5:32 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

The President is right to theorize that he may be immune. People who are currently infected are unlikely to suffer from a new infection of the same type
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:32 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

If he dies from COVID, it could save 100k lives. If he doesn’t, it could easily cost that many.
posted by snofoam at 5:36 PM on October 5, 2020 [19 favorites]

I’d start making Trolley Problems but then we’d all have Secret Service knocking on the door
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:37 PM on October 5, 2020 [21 favorites]

I'll shut up for today after this, but the interview 20 year lurk posted was very interesting. The doctor there said that prescribing steroids for Trump suggested his infection was actually at day 7, since you don't normally use steroids for at least the first week.
posted by Kevin Street at 5:39 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

It may be a positive sign for his prognosis that he was able to be terribly incompetently bronzed again though. A reassuring return to abnormality.
posted by srboisvert at 5:39 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

Don’t let COVID dominate your life, especially if you are now dead. That would be greedy
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:40 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

@brenonade: trump appears to be wincing in pain while he breathes

Not sure if it's a wince in pain or what, but 100% he looks uncomfortable in that clip.
posted by tclark at 5:40 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

It's impossible to read anything from the regimen because he might have gotten a call from Laura Ingraham or whoever and they were like "hey this dexamethasone sounds pretty neat" and he was like "hey doc, let's compromise.. either i walk out of here right now or you give me some of that sweet dex that a lot of people are talking about".
posted by rainy at 5:43 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Also Trump might be willing to deliberately take risks for the sake of having a chance of being reelected and not going to jail. The risk calculation for him is rather different than for a normal patient.
posted by rainy at 5:47 PM on October 5, 2020 [13 favorites]

I don't think he's wincing in pain, I think he's breathing through his mouth while keeping his teeth together so that he doesn't look like he's breathing through his mouth. For some reason, because frankly I'm still willing to believe he's faking it and he'll be in a coffin before I think otherwise. The Boy Who Cried Hoax.

However, if he needs some distraction from whatever is making him uncomfortable, there's a lot of pictures of family separations and migrant concentration camps out there. People waiting on hold with the unemployment office for hours, that kind of thing.
posted by rhizome at 5:52 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

Don’t let COVID dominate your life, especially if you are now dead. That would be greedy

"The disease store called, they're running out of COVID." /seinfeld
posted by rhizome at 5:53 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

Remember the white particles flying out of his nose? And the telltale allegations about Biden?

He's on some kind of performance enhancer, and he might have needed to get out of Walter Reed before withdrawal got too bad.
posted by jamjam at 5:55 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

𝘾𝙤𝙑-𝙅𝙚𝙛𝙚
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:57 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

It definitely looks like he was holding in some big chest coughs. I feel like gagging watching him do that, knowing how awful it feels when you're in that situation. He's not at 100%.
posted by knotty knots at 5:59 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

I wouldn’t want to be Dr. Conley.

Conley is the Bill Barr of physicians. It's amazing how many people around Trump are willing to sell their integrity and reputations.

Conley could have honestly faced the press and said that "these are the words that I am authorized by the president to say and no more." But instead he pretended to be giving his own frank opinion of Trump's state of health and then hid behind HIPAA when challenged for details. He was lying to the public on Trump's orders.
posted by JackFlash at 6:14 PM on October 5, 2020 [36 favorites]

TAL...Stennis
yep. nice recall.

that's a full time job, for at least 2 people.
I never doubted it. Deathstars need diet coke, too.
posted by j_curiouser at 6:16 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

Conley could have honestly faced the press and said that "these are the words that I am authorized by the president to say and no more." But instead he pretended to be giving his own frank opinion of Trump's state of health and then hid behind HIPAA when challenged for details. He was lying to the public on Trump's orders.

What is it that the lawyers say? Either give a record interview or give a no comment but never no comment in the middle of a record interview.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:20 PM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

From the full video, it looks like how a normal underexercised 74 year old might feel after a large flight of stairs when it’s like 106 degrees out and he’s been boiling for hours in a suit and mask. It’s 63 degrees in DC right now.

To an asthmatic, he looks how it feels just before they rush you to hospital and put a tube with lung dilating drugs up your bottom because those drugs haven't a chance in hell of getting into your bloodstream if they have to go through your lungs.

If someone doesn't stay up all night with him, will he even make it? A proper evil geezer who's brought it all on himself and yet I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
posted by glasseyes at 6:20 PM on October 5, 2020 [15 favorites]

> I’d start making Trolley Problems but then we’d all have Secret Service knocking on the door

Trolley Problems are so 2019. This is an SUV problem.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:23 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

I read this in the voice of Dr Manhattan.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 6:25 PM on October 5, 2020 [25 favorites]

Conley is a D.O. It is remarkable how many D.O.'s are very conservative.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:25 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

doctor of osteopathy?
posted by thelonius at 6:30 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

Even the typically even (in my opinion) CBC has the headline:
Trump returns to White House, tells Americans not to fear coronavirus that has killed 210,000 of them
posted by piyushnz at 6:30 PM on October 5, 2020 [32 favorites]

An early peek at a very poor result for Trump. Rhymes with troubled, fidgets.
posted by Harry Caul at 6:40 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

ELMO_FIRE.GIF
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 6:43 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

You know, people like to shit on the French but at least when their centrist runs against the fascist they send them packing 2-1 or 3-1 in the popular vote.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:45 PM on October 5, 2020 [26 favorites]

I’m pretty sure I said the two options were he dies, and becomes some sort of martyr for lunatics. The other option was that he recovers and walks around saying corona isn’t so bad, and immediately makes people feel like they can stop wearing masks and having some fucking common sense in a goddamn pandemic.

Turns out there was a third option: Both.
posted by Miko at 6:46 PM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

Fuck, man. His breathing looks awful. I’ve had bronchitis and pneumonia before, with lifelong asthma, and that is the worst feeling. I wish he would ADMIT he’s in pain and get treated! The macho attitude is such bullshit.
posted by sucre at 6:46 PM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]

Patti Lupone said this revival is closing November 3.

(For the non theater nerds, she originated a role about a certain argentinian.)
posted by NorthernLite at 6:50 PM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

It's hard when your brand is never showing vulnerability or weakness but you are in fact vulnerable and weak.

And by "it's hard" I mean "fuck that guy."
posted by medusa at 6:51 PM on October 5, 2020 [39 favorites]

doctor of osteopathy?

I was reading up on this earlier. Basically DOs and MDs receive almost exactly the same schooling, to the point where there's debate over the point of even maintaining it as a distinct profession (though there are some differences). But the osteopathic medicine was originally "a rejection of the prevailing system of medical practices throughout the 19th century," so you can see how it would attract various fuck-the-system types.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:52 PM on October 5, 2020 [12 favorites]

Vaccines are coming momentarily

Unless an Amazon Prime van shows up with the good stuff in the next minute or two, I'm starting to get the idea that this Trump fellow might not quite be entirely honest!
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 6:53 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

He looks like maybe he needs some oxygen assist. Like, if he was sitting in a hospital bed, that amount of obviously obstructed breathing would get you attached to some.

In all likelihood, he walked inside and was immediately given oxygen.
posted by Dashy at 6:53 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

In that video his body language and range of motion reminds me of the week I broke two ribs and had to continue lecturing to classes. I'd accidentally drop a laser pointer to the floor, look at it with disappointment, and continue on without it, with tiny gestures and shallow breaths.
posted by Capybara at 6:57 PM on October 5, 2020 [28 favorites]

If it were my patient looking like that, I’d be charting “increased work of breathing, visible discomfort on inhalation, Sp02 monitoring ongoing, MD informed.” And then I’d put the emergency airway cart right outside the pt’s room and I’d go tell the doc that this guy was circling the drain.
posted by jesourie at 7:03 PM on October 5, 2020 [48 favorites]

I had 3 (4, i guess technically) spontaneous pneumo's when I was younger. How he is breathing is what it looks like when your airway is mostly fine but there just isn't the capacity to catch your breath. It also hurts real bad.
posted by iamabot at 7:06 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

He's just reacting to that little voice behind him whispering "memento mori."

That’s the job I want.
posted by bq at 7:12 PM on October 5, 2020 [38 favorites]

I’m surprise Conley hasn’t been fired for being bad at lying. Maybe they’re scraping the bottom of the barrel.
posted by bq at 7:12 PM on October 5, 2020

I've always assumed that people move to Western Australia because they're serious about social distancing even when there isn't a pandemic.
posted by clawsoon

Lived in northern Australia for many decades, and the space between people is one of the main attractions.

I love a sunburnt country, a land of sweeping plains,
and being so far from your nearest neighbour
that you don't always share the rain.
posted by Pouteria at 7:13 PM on October 5, 2020 [17 favorites]

That’s the job I want.

Wouldn't you rather be the person whispering "Omae wa mo shinde iru"?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:16 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

He's just reacting to that little voice behind him whispering "memento mori."

That’s the job I want.

It doesn’t come with health insurance, bq.

It was painful to watch that breathing, I commiserate, nebulizer by my side. And by “I commiserate,” I also mean “Fuck that guy.”

So tha’d put us into week 2 which ups the chances for trial and jail time. He won’t pull the Cosby/Weinstein frailty bullshit.
posted by tilde at 7:17 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

"Omae wa mo shinde iru"

Nani?
posted by tclark at 7:18 PM on October 5, 2020 [11 favorites]

Here’s the Keyser Soze reveal:

Trump was the rose garden super spreader.

He got it, let’s say, at the Pittsburg rally Tuesday, September 23rd, and after a three day incubation period, was contagious but not yet symptomatic at the rose garden event by the 26th. Of course he knew he had it, but was hoping to keep it secret.

Think of everyone who got it while attending...who was the unique hub to all of those spokes? Someone there had to have it going in...who was uniquely poised to be that person?

On Tuesday, September 29th, the Trumps went to the debate, arriving late so there was no time for covid testing, despite the debate rules requiring it. The Trump entourage refused to wear masks, again despite the rules. Curiously, Melania was the only one in the party who wore a mask — a pang of conscience, perhaps? — but eventually removed hers.

By Friday October, 2nd, Trump announced that he and Melania had tested positive. This date is no coincidence; the timing aligns precisely with when the “covid cliff” would occur if he was already 7 to 10 days in to the illness. He’d gone off the cliff, needed oxygen, etc., and simply could hide it no further. This explains a couple of odd things:

1. The doctor’s conflicting statements about when Trump had been diagnosed; and
2. The administration of “late stage” medicine to Trump despite, supposedly, having just been diagnosed (multiple medical commentators have wondered about this).

If this timeline is correct, it could also explain Trumps cockiness about leaving the hospital: he has already had the “cliff” and come through it. If he had gotten covid later — say if one of his staffers gave it to him after contracting it at the rose garden — the worst is still potentially a couple days away.

Given that there is reporting that Trump tried to keep quiet the covid test we eventually became aware of, the fact that he might try to cover up a positive test from a week earlier isn’t that far fetched. Indeed, in this scenario, the covid test announced Friday, October, 2nd, never happened; they already knew.

Of course...speculation. But it does seem to answer some questions. What am I missing?
posted by Toecutter at 7:26 PM on October 5, 2020 [52 favorites]

If you watch longer videos, he visibly suppresses a cough at around 1:17

Wasn't there a discussion about O2 levels from video upthread?
posted by albion moonlight at 7:30 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

As a (presently exhausted) former nurse, I don't think I can emphasize enough how bad Trump looks in those videos. He doesn't look like an asthmatic who just jogged up a flight of stairs on a hot day - he looks like someone with COPD who is refusing oxygen. Given who he is and how he responds to treatment (he's already refused oxygen and probably genuinely believes he is immune to the thing giving him severe shortness of breath because the steroids make him feel good), I'm not confident he will survive the night. There is a lot going on in how he is breathing that is pretty alarming.

Basically what jesourie said.
posted by Lonnrot at 7:31 PM on October 5, 2020 [35 favorites]

One of the consistent things about this virus is that people generally get better from a respiratory standpoint before suddenly crashing and dying of myocarditis. This is part of why it was so terrifying in March. You'd discharge someone home, off oxygen, like you would for any other pneumonia or flu, and two days later when the visiting nurse arrived for post-hospital care, they were dead.

That's the Herman Cain timeline posted above. Feel ok, feel better, feel great, dead.

So yeah, not out of the woods yet.
posted by basalganglia at 7:34 PM on October 5, 2020 [13 favorites]

Now I’m wondering: if (when?) trump finally does pop his clogs, will we all get one of those official presidential amber alerts sent to our phones?
posted by Atom Eyes at 7:35 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

I’m surprise Conley hasn’t been fired for being bad at lying.

This afternoon the thought occurred to me that Trump was essentially kicked out of Walter Reed because the doctors didn't want to do the lying anymore.
posted by rhizome at 7:36 PM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

terrapin: With whom should I speak if I wanted to find some funding for my reality show where five not-as-rich-as-they-think children fight over who is top of the family's crumbling pyramid scheme when their father dies from a pandemic of his own making. Anyone?

May I recommend a program you might enjoy (in all seriousness it is excellent but the parallels were pretty sweet--though four children, not five, and based off of someone other than DJT but in the same... gang, I guess)
posted by tzikeh at 7:37 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Of course...speculation. But it does seem to answer some questions. What am I missing?

The complicity of anyone involved in the debate that didn't delay it because the Trump family showed up late to specifically avoid a CoVid test that was agreed upon by all? The same complicity where the Trumps purposely flauted the rules by removing their masks as soon as they sat down, again ignoring rules that were agreed upon?

"Call these people on their BS" is both necessary to say as well as a waste of breath.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:41 PM on October 5, 2020 [13 favorites]

Now I’m wondering: if (when?) trump finally does pop his clogs, will we all get one of those official presidential amber alerts sent to our phones?

Maybe just “Bye!”
posted by theodolite at 7:41 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Biden's doing a "town hall" event tonight.
Here's a link.
posted by rp at 7:46 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Doctor of Clinical Psychology Mary Trump on CNN: “Let’s be honest: this is mass murder. ... I’m not sure why anyone in the Republican Party is able to stand this any more.”
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:51 PM on October 5, 2020 [40 favorites]

He doesn't look like an asthmatic who just jogged up a flight of stairs on a hot day - he looks like someone with COPD who is refusing oxygen.

But above all, he looks like someone who really, REALLY doesn’t want to go to prison. Which I think we can all get behind.
posted by mochapickle at 7:52 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

Trump was the rose garden super spreader.

Yeah, that's what I think too, and some other folks on Twitter have proposed, and there's evidence in support. I find it more likely he gave it to Hicks than the other way round. And now there's some weird stuff about the White House suspending tours last week on Monday, days before the announcement of even Hicks' test. Why would they do that?

The call is coming from inside the hair
posted by Miko at 7:54 PM on October 5, 2020 [23 favorites]

Not to derail, but if the Biden ad gave you positive feels, check out the video by Dog Lovers for Joe. (I'm a cat-person & even I liked it)

To keep things on-topic, Josh Marshall has always struck me as the sensible type, and he's speculating that Trump wasn't regularly tested, relying instead on everyone around him being tested instead.
posted by cheshyre at 7:55 PM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]

Now I’m wondering: if (when?) trump finally does pop his clogs, will we all get one of those official presidential amber alerts sent to our phones?

That reminds me: on the left coast we heard the news Thursday night, and Friday night I was reading when about 1 am, I heard all these loud fireworks go off. I thought Jesus, did he die that freaking fast? 24 hours? I searched around but all the news I saw hadn’t been updated since a couple hours before so I shrugged and decided that if people were celebrating, I’d find out in the morning.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 7:57 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

If the Democrats really want to win, the next debate will feature standing candidates, with no lecterns, and wait for Trump to collapse or burst into amphetamine-fueled flames.
posted by aramaic at 7:58 PM on October 5, 2020 [15 favorites]

Conley is a D.O.?

LOL

My college roommate became a DO. Moved to Arizona. Now has gone full Trumpist.
so, seems on point...
posted by Windopaene at 8:24 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

Aren’t DOs supposed to have the same training as MDs? What’s the deal?
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:29 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

Wow that video of him standing there..trying to look strong for a photo op.. but looking so weak. It's chilling, pathetic, and desperate all at the same time.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:38 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

That's all just false. I've had two PCPs who were DOs, and both were by far the best doctors I've ever had. Their training seems to produce a slightly more holistic practice, but other than the quality of their personal care, I could not give you a difference.

Reference: the AMA: Both are accredited medical degree programs. Program admittance criteria and structure almost completely the same. 25% of doctors are DO. In fact, the DO program requires more training (200 hours). "“If a student is somebody who really enjoys that patient-centered approach and really is of the mindset that medicine is a mind-body-spirit relationship, a DO program will serve them well."
posted by Miko at 8:40 PM on October 5, 2020 [27 favorites]

Much less training. Much less Medical schooling.

That's not really true, at least in the United States. Osteopathy basically evolved in two directions: one has pretty much converged with MD education, with some training in osteopathic manipulation, and the other direction became chiropractic, with a whole lot of attendant woo.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:41 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

What? DOs and MDs are basically equivalent. They do the same amount of medical school, the same amount of residency and fellowship training, have the same prescriptive authority and scope of practice, get the same privileges at hospitals, the whole shebang.
posted by jesourie at 8:41 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

(or what Miko said)
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:42 PM on October 5, 2020

Much less training. Much less Medical schooling.

Not true. MDs and DOs have the same educational requirements, residencies, etc. There’s a good deal of snobbery in the medical profession and MDs like to look down on DOs.
posted by ValkoSipuliSuola at 8:45 PM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]

I've had a few DOs as my primary care doctor (I should probably start picking younger ones, one died and my latest just retired...) and I've been very happy with them. They aren't pill happy but don't hesitate to prescribe if needed. They've also been willing to dig a little deeper into any problems instead of "take these and see if they work." No knocks on MDs at all, but I've had better satisfaction with DOs.
posted by azpenguin at 8:48 PM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]

Trump trying to upstage the Biden townhall would be my cynical wager.
posted by iamabot at 8:50 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]

Reporting two WH housekeepers positive now
posted by anshuman at 8:53 PM on October 5, 2020 [14 favorites]

You know, people like to shit on the French but at least when their centrist runs against the fascist they send them packing 2-1 or 3-1 in the popular vote.

This is probably related to why fascists are unceasing about shitting on the French.
posted by wildblueyonder at 8:59 PM on October 5, 2020 [33 favorites]

If Pence makes an issue of Harris bringing a plexiglass barrier, she should talk about how 210,000 people have needlessly died because Republicans can’t let the economy stop for old people who were already sick (and non-white, and poor). Then, she should talk about how Jesus Christ reminded his followers “That which you do to the least of my people, you do unto me.”
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:10 PM on October 5, 2020 [18 favorites]

This is straight up Death of Stalin level fiasco except the US and also the global Chernobyl of disease. He looked steroid-full, shark eyed walking death suppressing a cough.

Even if he makes it out of this, he will be sick for weeks.

The GOP is a death cult. Pro-life my ass. Can’t wait for the hems and haws while their donors come back covid positive from Thursday’s BUFFET fundraiser with Covid Covfefe boi
posted by glaucon at 9:11 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

Also 13 restaurant staffers in quarantine, from the MN fundraiser
posted by anshuman at 9:12 PM on October 5, 2020 [19 favorites]

Reporting two WH housekeepers positive now

Today, former longtime White House photographer Pete Souza posted a beautiful set of photos on Instagram of the permanent secret service and White House staff during the Obama administration. I'll just leave this here.
posted by mochapickle at 9:14 PM on October 5, 2020 [35 favorites]

If you watch longer videos, he visibly suppresses a cough at around 1:17

Good cinematography, though. Very "Triumph of the Ill".
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:30 PM on October 5, 2020 [61 favorites]

Drudge Report lead links of the moment:

For Secret Service, a New Question: Who Will Protect Them From President?
Infected White House residence staffers told to keep quiet...
TRUMP: 'Feel Better Than I Did 20 Years Ago!'
History of falsehoods comes back to haunt...
Republicans face growing turmoil as calls for alarm are dismissed...
CDC now says it CAN spread indoors...
Cuomo orders closures in NYC as surge continues...
posted by philip-random at 9:37 PM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]

Today, former longtime White House photographer Pete Souza posted a beautiful set of photos on Instagram of the permanent secret service and White House staff during the Obama administration.

When I see stuff like this, it jars me out of this reality, into what feels like a wholly separate reality, from what seems like 97 years ago. It feels like a dream. It doesn't even seem real.

No matter what happens in the next 3 hours, 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months, beyond, in this moment it's hard for me to imagine ever getting back to any semblance of that reality. That said, thank you for the photos. Dreamworld or not, it's comforting to page through them.
posted by Brak at 9:38 PM on October 5, 2020 [31 favorites]

in all seriousness it is excellent but the parallels were pretty sweet--though four children, not five

I had to click through to confirm the show, as this fits Succession *and* Arrested Development. Both fantastic.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:40 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

I just realized, Trump is never going to stop taking steroids now
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:43 PM on October 5, 2020 [57 favorites]

he's basically saying that Hicks' job is to stand there, be pretty, and get pawed

Would that be a step up or a step down from her previous gig, steaming Trump's pants while he was wearing them?
posted by kirkaracha at 9:44 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]

Jesus, he's like Varrick without any of the charm, whimsy or humanity
posted by Lonnrot at 9:48 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]

They arrived late to the debate to avoid testing, and prior to that: Trump family, aides flouted Cleveland hotel mask mandate ahead of debate (ABC, Oct. 3, 2020) Hours before they were seen watching Tuesday's presidential debate without masks in violation of safety protocols, members of President Donald Trump's family, campaign staff and White House team also flouted a mask mandate at a hotel frequented by visitors to Cleveland Clinic [...] the InterContinental Suites Hotel Cleveland, one of several hotels near or on the campus of the world class medical facility, and used by people traveling to the clinic for work and medical procedures.

[Last year, Cleveland Clinic broke its own organ transplant records—897, up 3 percent from the year before—including the world’s first single-port robotic kidney transplant, which allows for a single small incision and limits the need for postoperative opioids for pain relief.]

The Secret Service wore masks at the hotel, but ABC News has Eric and Lara Trump, Jared Kushner, Mark Meadows and Bill Stepien maskless and wandering around the gift shop and the lobby (where a buffet was set up for the White House group).
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:32 PM on October 5, 2020 [13 favorites]

"The President is a very sick man, he also has COVID" - Pod Save America.
posted by Marticus at 10:35 PM on October 5, 2020 [26 favorites]

I didn't vote for him
posted by philip-random at 10:41 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]

I just realized, Trump is never going to stop taking steroids now

Pretty much.

And he's already buddies with Vince McMahon, so he's already got a hook-up for more steroids if the docs cut him off!
(Hahaha, these docs clearly won't cut him off.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:07 PM on October 5, 2020

I feel that his facade inexorably crumbling and him finally knowing that the whole world sees him as he is -- weak, frail, desperate, and scared -- is the first half of the justice that he deserves.
posted by NMcCoy at 2:32 AM on October 6, 2020 [35 favorites]

kirkaracha: Would that be a step up or a step down from her previous gig, steaming Trump's pants while he was wearing them?"

Steamed pants? Never heard of it. Must be an Albany expression.
posted by chavenet at 2:52 AM on October 6, 2020 [54 favorites]

The mask of self-deception was no longer a mask for me, it was a part of me. Night lifted it, laying bare the stifled truth below; but there was no one to see except myself, and when the day broke the mask fell back again of its own accord. These thoughts passed through my troubled mind as I lay sick, but they were hopelessly entangled with visions of white creatures, heavy as stone, crawling about in Boris' basin,—of the wolf's head on the rug, foaming and snapping at Geneviève, who lay smiling beside it. I thought, too, of the King in Yellow wrapped in the fantastic colours of his tattered mantle, and that bitter cry of Cassilda, "Not upon us, oh King, not upon us!"”

— The King in Yellow by Robert W. (Robert William) Chambers
posted by Harry Caul at 3:26 AM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

Andy Slavit tweeted that the White House now has more (current) COVID cases than Vietnam. There are 30 active cases in Vietnam...

So I guess we can say the president has his own personal Vietnam..?.
posted by p3t3 at 4:18 AM on October 6, 2020 [47 favorites]

Why not a personal one? Already, COVID has killed 4 x as many Americans as the Vietnam War.
posted by Miko at 5:00 AM on October 6, 2020 [13 favorites]

Good piece summing up current knowledge and speculation on the timeline.
posted by Miko at 5:07 AM on October 6, 2020 [7 favorites]

Ted Lieu (House of Representatives CA-33):
Regeneron , an experimental drug which @POTUS took, relied on “human embryonic stem cells.” I support this research. I wonder if @realDonaldTrump and Amy Coney Barrett support this research?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 5:08 AM on October 6, 2020 [107 favorites]

It's not really possible to diagnose someone from a video. I mean, he is clearly not well, but how not well is hard to say.

However if he survives and is able to get back to whatever he calls work, the people I know or know of who have had the virus have long term effects. It may be a coincidence, or it may be our age (55+). I teach a class with two other people, and one of them was sick during spring. Today, why I was thinking about why he has been so unhinged for this semester (he always had a temper, but he is raging through each class this year, insulting the students and threatening them with failure). Normally, he is a very interesting guy and a great colleague. Then I realized that he reminded me of another colleague I had once who had brain damage from working with chemicals. The anger and frustration comes from not being able to grasp the issues at hand, and the fear this leads to. I worry that my current colleague, who still can't taste anything, is suffering from long term cognitive effects as well.

Trump's weird speech reminded me of both these men. But most people think Trump was impaired already, wether he has dementia or he always had very small intellectual capacity. Isn't his behaviour consistent with the person we know he is? Someone who already struggles with complexity and long term planning, and who is basically both scared of the unknown and fundamentally angry. Someone for whom optics overrule every other concern, because he sees government as a reality show. How else could we expect him to act?
posted by mumimor at 5:23 AM on October 6, 2020 [22 favorites]

Regeneron is the company, not the drug(s).

The company Regeneron relies on human embryonic stem cells for its research, and it has been asserted (correctly, I suspect, but that’s more my sense of irony than specific knowledge) that that reliance played a role specifically in developing the experimental antibody cocktail which was administered to Donald Trump.
posted by Songdog at 5:23 AM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

FYI, anabolic steroids (wrestlers, football players in the 70's-80's, baseball players in the 90's-00's) and corticosteroids (cortisone, prednisone, dexamethasone) are different things with different side effects. Just saying "steroids" may lead you to assume you'll see different effects.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 5:27 AM on October 6, 2020 [24 favorites]

It's not really possible to diagnose someone from a video.

This physician who's had to spend the last 6 months doing telemedicine begs to differ.

Video is not always perfect, but those videos are better than 90% of my telemed encounters, which are plagued (yes, plagued) by low bandwidth, confusing interface, overly busy/distracting backgrounds. A lot of that is infrastructure disparities -- who has access to a computer on a secure wifi network and/or a smartphone with unlimited data -- but frankly, if there had been a halfway decent healthcare network in this country, we would not be in this double bind of having to ask our most vulnerable patients to come in to the office because their video streams are shit.

If the president's fucking Twitter videos are high enough quality that Mefites can argue about binder reflections and speculate about his heart rate, they sure are good enough to answer the first triage rule in medicine: Sick or Not Sick. (Answer: Very very sick.)
posted by basalganglia at 5:38 AM on October 6, 2020 [113 favorites]

I have learned a lot about "accessory muscles" as a sign of respiratory distress. I had never known that was an indicator before. Now that it's been pointed out to me I think I can see it, but I am sure it takes a lot of practice, and that once you have that practice it's probably perceivable in an instant.
posted by Miko at 5:44 AM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

Harry Caul: An early peek at a very poor result for Trump. Rhymes with troubled, fidgets.

CNN national poll of likely voters: 16 point lead for Biden.
posted by saturday_morning at 5:44 AM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

If the president's fucking Twitter videos are high enough quality that Mefites can argue about binder reflections and speculate about his heart rate, they sure are good enough to answer the first triage rule in medicine: Sick or Not Sick. (Answer: Very very sick.)

I should have specified that I am reading the comments from medical professionals like you very closely and I trust your judgement far more than that of lay people, obviously including my own.
posted by mumimor at 5:49 AM on October 6, 2020 [7 favorites]

I dearly hope that someone (or many someones) will produce yard signs, flags, tee shirts, masks, etc. that say “PLEASE BE AFRAID OF COVID.”

Please.
posted by argonauta at 5:53 AM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

He tweeted this morning that Biden wants to execute babies. Fucking hell, those are some drugs he's on.

Biden and Democrats just clarified the fact that they are fully in favor of (very) LATE TERM ABORTION, right up until the time of birth, and beyond - which would be execution. Biden even endorsed the Governor of Virginia, who stated this clearly for all to hear. GET OUT & VOTE!!!
posted by essexjan at 5:56 AM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

It's hard for me to express how angry I am that Trump tweeted "Don't be afraid of COVID." That is going to kill people. More people than if he had just taken a gun to a street and started shooting. He is a criminal.
posted by graymouser at 5:58 AM on October 6, 2020 [35 favorites]

After Donald Trump's deranged balcony address, we're all gasping together (Marina Hyde, The Guardian)

A rare moment of unity in the US election, as Donald Trump marked his return to the White House by gasping along with his detractors. On Monday night, the president puffed up the front staircase of his residence, his face coated in several more gallons of paint than the front elevation of the building. “Don’t let it dominate your lives,” he panted of the virus, a bad case of which tends to dominate your death.

Yet there he was, this hideous kink in the arc of history, giving the most dangerous balcony performance since Michael Jackson had his baby crowdsurf off one. The American people are all Blanket now.

As for the optics, “deranged balcony address” is certainly a look – but not one that tends to end well. How might this version turn out? Unfortunately, it’s not a question Trump’s attention span equips him to answer. His reference points for the form are the occasional three minutes of historical documentaries he’s forced to watch while searching his stomach-folds for the TV remote. It feels like he switches over to Fox News before discovering how a whole series of 20th-century balcony stories ended.

Still: don’t call him Wussolini. He beat this illness – which he still very much has – like a man. One of the really manly ones, who takes all the best drugs and leaves everyone else exposed and misled and unprotected. Even so, early reactions to the gasping spectacle suggest the move could only have backfired more if Trump had ascended the front steps via a hastily installed stairlift carrying a pack of adult diapers.

posted by mumimor at 5:58 AM on October 6, 2020 [37 favorites]

Wait, Trump wants to go back to the White House? Sorry, I've been disconnected from the news for most of the weekend, so this is really surprising. And dumb.

Trump, surprising, dumb: pick any two.
posted by flabdablet at 6:04 AM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

Don't be afraid of COVID.

This is the death cult's psalm 23:4.
posted by popcassady at 6:07 AM on October 6, 2020 [7 favorites]

"accessory muscles" ... I am sure it takes a lot of practice
I don't know about practice diagnosing but once you've experienced how exhausting it is to engage your entire chest musculature in the effort to get a few more ounces of oxygen into your body, it's so intimately familiar you get sympathetic anxiety just watching. Sympathetic anxiety for an evil overlord! What a disconcerting feeling! That's why there's so many twitter comments saying "OMG is he at death's door?" where the commentator goes on to explain they are also asthmatic or have chronic breathing problems
posted by glasseyes at 6:12 AM on October 6, 2020 [26 favorites]

Shelley's "England in 1819" sounds shockingly like the US in 2020, with the possible exception of the hopeful ending.

An old, mad, blind, despised, and dying King;
Princes, the dregs of their dull race, who flow
Through public scorn,—mud from a muddy spring;
Rulers who neither see nor feel nor know,
But leechlike to their fainting country cling
Till they drop, blind in blood, without a blow.
A people starved and stabbed in th' untilled field;
An army, whom liberticide and prey
Makes as a two-edged sword to all who wield;
Golden and sanguine laws which tempt and slay;
Religion Christless, Godless—a book sealed;
A senate, Time’s worst statute, unrepealed—
Are graves from which a glorious Phantom may
Burst, to illumine our tempestuous day.
posted by FencingGal at 6:17 AM on October 6, 2020 [49 favorites]

A friend saw a political yard sign we both particularly like: "And one day, like a miracle, he'll be gone."
posted by PhineasGage at 6:37 AM on October 6, 2020 [59 favorites]

“My name is Trump, king of kings:
Look on my smirks, ye Mighty, and gasp for air!”
posted by Wallace Shawn at 7:07 AM on October 6, 2020 [15 favorites]

...king of bling, look upon my works and go wtf was he thinking
posted by flabdablet at 7:30 AM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

MDs and DOs have the same educational requirements, residencies, etc.

While DOs follow the same training path and license requirements as MDs, they are not identical or equivalent.

I'm speaking from very close involvement with many undergraduates as they aim at MD school (no one aims at DO school) and with my U's statistics of placement success. There's no nice way to say this: generally speaking, DOs are the people who didn't get into MD school. The major differences are their GPA and MCAT scores. They just plain didn't get as good of grades as students who go on to MD school. They did not learn as much, and what they learned they didn't understand as well. That's the brutal truth.

In DO school, they attend classes with the same names as the classes at MD school, yes. But what goes on inside those classes -- the learning, the depth of understanding -- is different, because they are different sets of students. The educational requirements for the degree are not the same beyond the bare minimum of "took and passed classes in X"

This says nothing about their empathy, their drive, their work ethic.

I know little about the outcomes of the USMLE exams; but it isn't hard for me to guess that the grade distributions and the percent passing aren't the same. I don't know what it would take to not fulfill a residency, but the same ideas apply.

There are plenty of great DOs out there, plenty of bad MDs for sure, all kinds of reasons for grades to be suboptimal, and standardized tests aren't perfect evaluators in many ways. The medical field benefits a great amount from the myriad mid-level providers out there now. But they're not all the same, and patients need to know the differences.
posted by Dashy at 7:54 AM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

~I just realized, Trump is never going to stop taking steroids now
~Pretty much.

Oh, joy. Let's just add roid-rage to his normal bundle of insanity.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:58 AM on October 6, 2020

> Don't be afraid of COVID.
> This is the death cult's psalm 23:4

With editing apologies to the King James Version: “Yea, though I walk through the valley of COVID-19, I will fear no evil: for Trump art with me...”

In Trump’s case, however, no changes are necessary for Proverbs 16:18: “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”
posted by cenoxo at 8:02 AM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

or just John chapter 11, verse 35. For all of it.
posted by chavenet at 8:11 AM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

is there a single serving website yet?
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:13 AM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

is there a single serving website yet?

Yes.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:16 AM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

I'm speaking from very close involvement with many undergraduates as they aim at MD school (no one aims at DO school) and with my U's statistics of placement success. There's no nice way to say this: generally speaking, DOs are the people who didn't get into MD school. The major differences are their GPA and MCAT scores. They just plain didn't get as good of grades as students who go on to MD school. They did not learn as much, and what they learned they didn't understand as well. That's the brutal truth.

Honestly, it is ridiculously difficult to get into any medical school right now. DO schools reject students who would have been accepted by MD schools 25 years ago. Anyone who is accepted into any medical school right now is a very strong student who is capable of being an excellent doctor.

Source: I'm a pre-med advisor.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:19 AM on October 6, 2020 [38 favorites]

Oh, joy. Let's just add roid-rage to his normal bundle of insanity.

Again, corticosteroids are not the same as anabolic steroids.
posted by supercrayon at 8:34 AM on October 6, 2020 [22 favorites]

Trump is considering a televised address to the nation after returning yesterday from a three-day stay in the hospital for coronavirus treatment, @SalehaMohsin reports.
posted by robbyrobs at 8:40 AM on October 6, 2020

Again, corticosteroids are not the same as anabolic steroids.

Dude is on cortico steroids, portico steroids, hyperbolic steroids, and some kinda fish paralyzer.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:54 AM on October 6, 2020 [41 favorites]

Considering? He’s already decided. This is just his usual tactic to drum up news cycle chatter. And the media fall for it every time.
posted by mochapickle at 8:54 AM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

GCU Sweet and Full of Grace: "Dude is on cortico steroids, portico steroids, hyperbolic steroids, and some kinda fish paralyzer."

politico steroids
posted by chavenet at 9:00 AM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

God, I'd love to have just a minute in my life where I don't have to think about Donald Trump. I can't even ask for five minutes without him. He reminds me of the Eminem song. I'm so sick of his attention whoring ways. Is nothing enough? It isn't.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:01 AM on October 6, 2020 [38 favorites]

The MD vs DO debate might be turning into a derail, but while Dashy accurately sums up the pre-med stereotype about DO being a sub-par education, I have to say that, as someone who happens to have an MD and works closely with DOs (both as peers and as some of my trainees), that's ... not true at all. The MCAT and USMLE are poor predictors of actual knowledge -- to the point where the USMLE is going to a pass/fail format shortly -- but fwiw, there's only a 5 point average difference on the MCAT between them. (For comparison, there is a 10-pt average difference on race. This test basically stinks.) It's hard to find accurate details on USMLE scores because historically not all DOs took the USMLE (they had the COMLEX exam instead), but now that the MD and the DO licensing boards have merged, it's kind of a moot point.

Even the American Medical Association -- which was founded to protect the interests of MDs against DOs -- says they are the same. DOs are many things, but they are certainly not mid-levels.

OK, derail over, back to analysis of the president's 'roid rage.
posted by basalganglia at 9:09 AM on October 6, 2020 [37 favorites]

If he's gasping like last night during a national address, it's going to be real interesting. You can definitely count me among the people who looks at those videos and thinks "oh wow, that's how I felt before I had my asthma diagnosis." To see that when he's presumably at the peak of medication is just bananas. Just take a moment to consider how extreme this situation is. It has the same typical nonsense parameters of every Trump story but truly, this is historical level flailing he's doing.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:12 AM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Considering? He’s already decided. This is just his usual tactic to drum up news cycle chatter. And the media fall for it every time.

They're not falling for anything, they're chasing any stupid thing the guy does because it's been very very profitable for them.
posted by StarkRoads at 9:13 AM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

White House COVID-19 tracker is up to 293 contacts, 28 identified positive cases. In the "other" category (may not be the recently identified, I'm just noting the chart cluster): Journalist Michael Shear's wife, Kellyanne Conway's daughter Claudia, and Pastor Greg Laurie of Harvest Christian Fellowship in Riverside, CA.

On Sept. 26, Laurie was at the Prayer March on the Mall with Pence, then attended the Coney Barrett rose garden event later that day.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:14 AM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

Monmouth has released their most recent poll for Pennsylvania, and their time frame includes post-debate and Trump's COVID diagnosis. "Joe Biden holds a 12-point lead over Donald Trump among all registered voters in Pennsylvania and anywhere from an 8-point to 11-point lead among likely voters."
posted by gladly at 8:59 AM on October 6

It's not enough.
posted by bluesky43 at 9:15 AM on October 6, 2020 [40 favorites]

Monmouth has released their most recent poll for Pennsylvania, and their time frame includes post-debate and Trump's COVID diagnosis. "Joe Biden holds a 12-point lead over Donald Trump among all registered voters in Pennsylvania and anywhere from an 8-point to 11-point lead among likely voters."

I checked out of curiosity. 8 to 11 points is how far ahead Trump is currently projected in Alaska, Missouri, and Montana. That's how good this poll is.

It's not enough, but it's good news.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:16 AM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

Also the GOP cheated.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:22 AM on October 6, 2020 [67 favorites]

Basal ganglia, could you articulate in detail exactly what you're seeing that indicates he is very very sick with Covid. And also address, from a medical professional's pov, how his other presumed comorbidities (perhaps tia's, perhaps dementia) and his possible sociopathy plays into this.

Iow many of us can see he's probably a psychopath, and an obese drug addict. But again, discuss how you'd deal with that. thanks.
posted by NorthernLite at 9:24 AM on October 6, 2020

possibly germane to putative degree derail, pop used to have a barbed ... joke/quip/riddle ... about the apparent authority of titles:

what do you call the person who graduated at the bottom of their medical school class?

"doctor"

posted by 20 year lurk at 9:26 AM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Michelle Obama, closing argument (NYT)

In a 24-minute video, Mrs. Obama appealed to parents and young people, white working-class Americans and people of color, lashing President Trump’s mismanagement of the coronavirus — “he continues to gaslight the American people by acting like this pandemic is not a real threat,” she said — and warning that Mr. Trump’s habit of stoking division could be an effective political tool. She urged voting as the best remedy.
posted by bluesky43 at 9:27 AM on October 6, 2020 [7 favorites]

the current polling is encouraging but there is huge danger in reading too much into it -- akin to the common military mistake of assuming a battle is won before it's been fought, which is a big part of what happened four years ago, I think. Clinton and her crowd lost their focus, spent too much time looking at what lay beyond the coming victory, forgot to actually WIN

I look at it as "hey, people, we can win this thing, get out there and vote." And people are responding. 4.25 million votes already cast as of this morning (vs about 75,000 at this point in 2016) and that number's about to start skyrocketing as several states have just now opened early and mail in voting. People are all too well aware of what happened last time.
posted by azpenguin at 9:43 AM on October 6, 2020 [15 favorites]

The focus is on the Rose Garden Coney Barrett nomination as the superspreader event, but I would like to highlight that 2-hour, 1.8 mile Prayer March earlier that Saturday in my previous comment. Several WH attendees were at the march. Depending on the source, thousands (mainstream outlets) or tens of thousands (organizers, evangelical media) attended; "After the rally, demonstrators walked to eight sites around the National Mall. At each, they were asked to pray on a specific focus, including police officers, government leaders, ending abortion and more. [...] Few masks were seen among the speakers on stage or participants in the crowd, although organizers encouraged everyone to follow coronavirus safety protocols on the event’s website."

Pastor Laurie is one of Trump's advisers. Yesterday: "I just wish at a time like this we could not politicize something like this but show compassion," Laurie said in the [embedded, Instagram] video. "God is in control of our lives, I don't know why he allowed me to get it, but I got it." Known for his large-scale, evangelistic Christian events Harvest Crusades, Laurie did not mention his attendance at the Barrett nomination nor his participation in the Prayer March. However, in videos and photos that Laurie posted on his Twitter account, he can be seen without a mask and not social distancing among Prayer March attendees. [...]

Laurie, in an April 5th (Palm Sunday) article about the increasing popularity of his church's livestreamed services, As Trump watches amid coronavirus, SoCal megachurch pastor tells worshipers to stay home: "One of the things that kind of irritates me is the way some people are not really responding appropriately to the very real threat of the coronavirus," he told the Los Angeles Times. "Sometimes people are just ignoring it as though this has not been asked of us, and I think we want to be considerate of others. Because, look, you could be a young person, and you could get COVID-19, maybe not even be aware of it, and then pass it on to Grandma without even realizing it. Let’s respect one another. Let’s care about one another.”

Pence & family (including Mrs. Pence, who also attended the Sept. 26 events) arrived in Utah yesterday evening. PBS: Wednesday's Vice presidential debate will have plexiglass shield between condidates, to reduce the risk of coronavirus transmission. KUTV, Salt Lake City: "The debate will have an extremely limited in-person audience and attendees are being required to be tested for COVID-19 prior to attending."
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:43 AM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

@cnnadam: BREAKING: The top US general, Gen. Mark Milley and several members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are quarantining after a top Coast Guard official tested positive for coronavirus, several US defense officials tell CNN's @barbarastarrcnn

Totally not a national security issue here, folks. Stop politicizing everything!
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:51 AM on October 6, 2020 [53 favorites]

"I just wish at a time like this we could not politicize something like this

Translation: let *us* politicize this and control its politics, *you* don't get to do it.

God is in control of our lives, I don't know why he allowed me to get it

Translation: Man, isn't God a convenient way of avoiding responsibility for anything?
posted by wildblueyonder at 9:52 AM on October 6, 2020 [46 favorites]

NMcCoy: I feel that his facade inexorably crumbling and him finally knowing that the whole world sees him as he is -- weak, frail, desperate, and scared

He doesn't know that. He will never know that. Anyone who has a parent with BPD or NPD is keenly aware that he will never, ever, ever know that.

And now the whole U.S. has had that experience: our "parent" does not know or understand our acknowledge our humanity, nor their lack thereof. Whether each citizen chooses to accept that is up to them.
posted by tzikeh at 9:53 AM on October 6, 2020 [68 favorites]

@cnnadam: BREAKING: The top US general, Gen. Mark Milley and several members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are quarantining after a top Coast Guard official tested positive for coronavirus, several US defense officials tell CNN's @barbarastarrcnn

effing eff. The s*** is really hitting the fan big time now.
posted by mumimor at 9:54 AM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

Sympathetic anxiety for an evil overlord! What a disconcerting feeling!

I've been feeling this paradox too: throughout Trump's sickness in general, and acutely when watching that video.

The disconnect for me is that in media terms, Trump aspires to be - and mostly succeeds at being - a political phenomenon, and as such is almost never before our eyes as an actual human body. Even when we do discuss his body - the hair, the suit, the hands - it's often in terms of mediation and presentation, not of real flesh. Even when we talk about his violence against women, it is the women whose bodies become central, while especially given his denial, he remains in power: the one who grabs, the one who demeans, the one who does the violence. It is a white cishet male renunciation of subjectivity to the nth degree. (His obesity is perhaps an exception, but of course it is always masked - we know we'll never see him shirtless).

Obama had (has!) an undeniable body, given this racist culture. A brilliant powerful man with a body - how terrifying for those still holding desperately onto a regime of white male normativity and might, a regime in which other people do labor, other people get hungry, other people are vulnerable to illness, other people have skin color, other people have babies, other people are assaulted, other people die. (See also ActionPopulated's excellent link above, I want a dyke for president. I want a person with AIDS for president, and I want a fag for Vice President...)

But now here this guy is - a real, vulnerable, normal flesh and blood human, gasping for breath. Yikes, poor soul, no one wants that physical desperation, one feels it and feels for the person having it. At the same time, though, we all see him refusing to acknowledge his very own damn humanity. WTF dude? Attend to your body, admit that you have one at least, it won't kill you (in fact in this case it will probably save your life).

We're in true tragedy territory here, Covid lays bare Donald Trump's pathologies beyond what I'd even imagined: he more or less killed hundreds of thousands of people in order to maintain a fantasy of transcending normal human existence, and apparently he's willing to kill himself for it too. That is horrifying and sad.

It also - no small matter - deflates the particular, fundamentally corrupt source of his power, in an intimate way.

Covid, wow. In the body of Trump it is publicly laying bare a deep-seated, miserable, ready to expire lie right now, before our very eyes. For that, respect, little virus - respect.
posted by marlys at 9:59 AM on October 6, 2020 [88 favorites]

Biden's camp should be releasing daily testing results for the entire campaign staff and entourage. Just all day long. "Every person among the (mumblety hundred or thousand) volunteers, staffers, and advisors at Biden for President has tested negative for COVID-19 this morning."

Buy ad time in toss-up markets. "We have $NUMBER of volunteers in $YOURCITY working hard to keep you safe. Each of them is tested every morning for COVID-19. None of them are infected. Wear your mask, wash your hands, and obey the social distancing rules. Oh - and vote Biden for America." (VO: "I'm Joe Biden, and I approve this message. Also, I tested negative for COVID-19 this morning.")

And then do it again tomorrow. And the next day. And the next. If they're really feeling themselves, run a tally of Trump's staff, entourage, and advisers who tested positive next to that giant ZERO on the Biden side.
posted by tzikeh at 10:00 AM on October 6, 2020 [16 favorites]

Early voting in Ohio starts today and there are lines around the block in Hamilton County (Twitter link to Cinnanati Enquirer political reporter Scott Wartman).
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 10:03 AM on October 6, 2020 [15 favorites]

Yeah, and Mefi'sOwn jscalzi already did it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:06 AM on October 6, 2020 [14 favorites]

I don't feel pity for this man and I don't hope he gets better. Not only would that be a waste of emotional energy, but I would feel awfully stupid about having indulged those feelings if, a month from now, he's grimacing and wheezing his way through a gloating victory speech.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:11 AM on October 6, 2020 [29 favorites]

Three Minnesota congressmen flew on a Delta flight after knowingly being exposed to the virus. They told Delta and the airline allowed them to fly. They claim they weren't exposed "to someone carrying the virus longer than 15 minutes and closer than 6 feet" which is Delta's definition, but they were on Air Force One on Wednesday.
posted by soelo at 10:14 AM on October 6, 2020 [23 favorites]

Three Republican congresspeople, that is. Grrr....
posted by wenestvedt at 10:17 AM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

I feel like I'm losing my mind. The commander-in-chief and all the highest leaders of our military apparatus being currently quarantined and/or incapacitated is very bad, no? The entire White House being infected or potentially infected with a deadly disease is very bad, no? It's possible that no administration genuinely is better than our current administration. But I truly do not want to find out. To say I have no sympathy for Trump is to understate by miles, but the thought of our executive branch being not just non-functional but non-existent is terrifying.
posted by cosmic owl at 10:18 AM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain
posted by kirkaracha at 10:22 AM on October 6, 2020 [17 favorites]

The commander-in-chief and all the highest leaders of our military apparatus being currently quarantined and/or incapacitated is very bad, no?

This sort of thing is half the reason the military has such deeply-ingrained adherence to the chain of command. It's not just so you get people to follow orders. It's also to establish what to do when the person in the next step up goes down. Ordinarily it would be bad, yes, but there are also systems in place to address such problems.

Trump, however, has actively corrupted a lot of that at the top during his time in office. He is also actively avoiding his own obligation to hand his responsibilities off to his #2 while he's very clearly not up to doing his job. That is an immense problem.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:24 AM on October 6, 2020 [21 favorites]

The commander-in-chief and all the highest leaders of our military apparatus being currently quarantined and/or incapacitated is very bad, no?

Yes. A hostile foreign power could basically walk into the kitchen and eat all the cookies right now. Especially if they had an interest in causing political instability. This is exactly what the 25th amendment is for, but [scaryblackdeath beat me to it].
posted by saturday_morning at 10:26 AM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

@DavidBegnaud: BREAKING: CBS News reports top U.S. military officials quarantined after COVID19 exposure:
Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff
Vice Chairman
Army chief of staff
Naval Operations Chief
Air Force chief of staff
CyberCom Commander
SpaceForce operations chief

...okay, I'm just gonna say I don't think it actually matters to national security of anyone or literally everyone from Space Force is out sick. The rest of this is a problem, though.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:27 AM on October 6, 2020 [33 favorites]

Also whoever the senior Coast Guard official is (presumably someone in the circle around the Commandant of the Coast Guard).
posted by suelac at 10:34 AM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

This whole situation is going to result in a bunch of terrible movies and books in a few years.
It might, however, make for a terrific opera.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:35 AM on October 6, 2020 [20 favorites]

Hey, rather than quoting that text poem, the great 1992 Zoe Leonard one excerpted above, can we use its title, "I Want a President" ? As in: Zoe Leonard Releases an Edition of Her Beloved ‘I Want a President’ Poem to Support an HIV Activist Group (artnet, Nov. 19, 2018) The artist's 1992 work has had a special resonance since the election of Donald Trump.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:41 AM on October 6, 2020 [14 favorites]

I don't know if it's a big deal unless their subordinates start getting sick. Mark Milley has an entire communications suite in his house, he'll be able to work from home just fine.

You could probably knock off the entire Joint Chiefs and the military would carry on okay.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:41 AM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

Also whoever the senior Coast Guard official is (presumably someone in the circle around the Commandant of the Coast Guard).

Admiral Charles Ray, Vice Commandant of the Coast Guard, is the senior Coast Guard official who tested positive.
posted by RichardP at 10:41 AM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

CBS News reports top U.S. military officials quarantined after COVID19 exposure

Trump only likes soldiers who don't get infected.
posted by JackFlash at 10:45 AM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

That's why there's so many twitter comments saying "OMG is he at death's door?" where the commentator goes on to explain they are also asthmatic or have chronic breathing problems

Chalk me up as another on Team Asthma. That clip was immediately recognisable as someone in the sort of condition that would ordinarily see you whisked away to hospital, not whisked away from it.
posted by rory at 10:46 AM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

yup
posted by glasseyes at 10:51 AM on October 6, 2020

Trump is basically doing with his health what he's always done; borrow a huge bunch to make him look healthy, while doing deep debt to himself that he never intended to pay back. We will see if the virus is a more forgiving creditor than, say, the Mob.
posted by The otter lady at 10:52 AM on October 6, 2020 [65 favorites]

He was whisked from one hospital to another but trying to spin it as triumph of the will. If he feels worse again, he'll be whisked back to Walter Reed and the whole back and forth whisking will look especially pathetic.
posted by rainy at 10:52 AM on October 6, 2020

Well, it sure is good that there aren't any impending natural disasters on the horizon, because with this deficit in leadership, we'd really be in trouble.
posted by MrVisible at 11:09 AM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

LOL. "White House physician says Trump reports no COVID-19 symptoms." (emphasis mine)
posted by PhineasGage at 11:09 AM on October 6, 2020 [20 favorites]

Super good catch. DoctorX: hey Trump, how areya feeling? Trump: I'M BACK.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:15 AM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

I can hardly imagine what the main hostile foreign power wants that it hasn't already got, knock on wood.

As for his leadership during a hurricane, I expect it will be as good as ever. The ones in danger are red states, anyway, so they will either get a decent federal response or pretend that they did. (Yes, I sound bitter; I live in one of them.)
posted by Countess Elena at 11:27 AM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

Man, this developing story really infiltrates the ol’ brain. I had a dream that my friend and I saw Trump driving a white sedan, and we stood behind it and made faces at him, and he was so distracted by us that he slowly crashed into several cars waiting at a stoplight. And then we were on the run! And had to wear long black Cher masks to disguise ourselves. This was my first Trump dream and hopefully my last.

I’m really surprised that he survived the night. I wonder how he’s ACTUALLY doing?
posted by sucre at 11:29 AM on October 6, 2020 [17 favorites]

Trump's symptoms right now aren't that important compared to his symptoms next Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Assuming they aren't lying about when he was infected, that's when he'll reach the cliff and could go either way.
posted by Kevin Street at 11:31 AM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

> PBS: Wednesday's Vice presidential debate will have plexiglass shield between condidates

Pence, Harris teams at odds over plexiglass at debate

Vice President Pence is requesting that no plexiglass dividers be placed on his side of the stage at Wednesday night’s vice-presidential debate, after an announcement Monday by the Commission on Presidential Debates that dividers had been agreed to as a safety measure to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.

Marc Short, the vice president’s chief of staff, said the vice president’s team does not view plexiglass dividers as medically necessary, given other safety measures at the debate, including a 12-foot distance between Pence and Sen. Kamala D. Harris (D-Calif.) and daily testing of both candidates.

BROKE: Masks are for wusses

WOKE: Masks are okay, but I'm not wearing one, because I won't get COVID, because I'm not a wuss

BESPOKE:I have been exposed to COVID, but not only will I not wear a mask, but if you try to protect yourself from COVID, you're a wuss

Further evidence of my theory outlined above, whereby the Trump campaign is trying to weaponize their COVID-19 outbreak for PR purposes.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:32 AM on October 6, 2020 [21 favorites]

(His obesity is perhaps an exception, but of course it is always masked - we know we'll never see him shirtless).

Various cartoonists draw him shirtless, and make it a grotesque, looking not unlike an anthropomorphic Jabba The Hutt.
posted by acb at 11:32 AM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

I can hardly imagine what the main hostile foreign power wants that it hasn't already got

Well, the US could pull itself out of NATO, ideally with no warning, tipping the whole central European plain into Moscow's sphere of influence.
posted by acb at 11:34 AM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

McConnell is refusing to say when he last got tested and takes umbrage that his opponent recommended he be tested before their debate Oct. 12.

McConnell met with Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett shortly after her nomination by President Trump. At least seven known coronavirus cases have emerged from the announcement of Judge Barrett's nomination, which took place a few days prior.

"It is irresponsible of McConnell to refuse to tell the public when he's been tested for COVID-19, as he continues to meet with Kentuckians face-to-face and potentially expose them to a deadly virus," said McGrath. "His colleagues in the Senate and the White House have divulged this information, and there is no reason for him not to follow suit."

On Friday, Senator McConnell declined to say the last time he'd been tested for coronavirus but said he had not had close contact with anyone who has recently tested positive for the virus.

'I’m unaware where Amy McGrath went to medical school, but I take my health care advice from my doctor, not my political opponent," McConnell responded in a statement Tuesday. "At the end of the campaign season, it's imperative for all of us to tune out erratic and uninformed campaign rhetoric and make health care decisions for ourselves based on CDC guidance and our health care professionals."
posted by emjaybee at 11:42 AM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

I take my health care advice from my doctor

Is McConnell's doctor aware of this?
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:47 AM on October 6, 2020 [13 favorites]

For electoral reasons, I do not really want Trump to die at this time. As to certain senators who have sown the wind and should fucking reap the whirlwind for once, once in their lives -- well, I am just going to have to work on my metta bhavana
posted by Countess Elena at 11:49 AM on October 6, 2020 [27 favorites]

🐢 and tillis and johnson haven't been in each other's company lately? bullshit.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:50 AM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

You and me, countess.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:51 AM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

They claim they weren't exposed "to someone carrying the virus longer than 15 minutes and closer than 6 feet" which is Delta's definition, but they were on Air Force One on Wednesday.

How the hell did they come up with this 15 minute rule? Being next to someone who is infected for five minutes is not enough to infect you? One minute?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:52 AM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

For all the many reasons posted above, I dread the prospect of Trump dying before the election is decided. McConnell on the other hand...
posted by wabbittwax at 11:52 AM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

It seems like the new Republican plan is to get us to herd immunity by personally infecting literally everyone.
posted by artychoke at 11:53 AM on October 6, 2020 [16 favorites]

Hey, rather than quoting that text poem, the great 1992 Zoe Leonard one excerpted above, can we use its title, "I Want a President" ?

Thanks Iris Gambol for pointing this out, and yes absolutely, I should have cited appropriately.
posted by marlys at 11:53 AM on October 6, 2020

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."

This should really be reversed to "Suppose you were a member of Congress. And suppose you were an idiot..."
All A's are B's is not the same as All B's are A's. A rare miss from Twain.
/pedant
posted by thedamnbees at 11:54 AM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

Many of the works sites I can end up going to require regular testing, and there aren't any septegenarians on the on the crew. That The Turtle would refuse is both wholly predicable and completely anti-social.

Yeah, and Mefi'sOwn jscalzi already did it.

He writes:Maybe that [voting for republicans] doesn’t matter when the position is, say, County Recorder, where the prosaic function of the office doesn’t offer much opportunity for the politics of the party to intrude, and the Republican is the only person running for the office anyway. But as a matter of conscience, I can’t support the GOP for anything right now, and honestly I don’t know when I can again. The Republicans running unopposed on the ballot will get their jobs regardless. Just not with my vote.
Kim Davis, of same-sex marriage license controversy fame, was an elected county clerk (running as a Democrat), even these minor positions matter so I'm glad jscalzi refrained from confirming any GOP candidates.

Hard to believe we're worried about Cat 4 Hurricane Delta
posted by Mitheral at 11:55 AM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

Trump told Americans not to let coronavirus 'dominate your life.' This is what loved ones of victims have to say
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:56 AM on October 6, 2020 [7 favorites]

For electoral reasons, I do not really want Trump to die at this time.

If Trump dies, he also loses the election, no?

Por qué no los dos?
posted by swift at 11:58 AM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

It seems like the new Republican plan is to get us to herd immunity by personally infecting literally everyone.-artychoke

You know, when pitchers give up a grand slam, they no longer need to worry about the bases being loaded
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:58 AM on October 6, 2020 [14 favorites]

swift, I think Pence could claw back some of the reluctant Biden voters from the Republicans; plus without Trump, you lose the pure anger that motivates the "vote blue no matter who" voters who dislike Biden. Also there's the electoral chaos of allotting votes for a dead candidate
posted by Countess Elena at 12:01 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

Attend to your body, admit that you have one at least, it won't kill you (in fact in this case it will probably save your life).

Long, long before his COVID infection, when I watched 45 move what I saw was a person profoundly divorced from his own body in the way that people who have endured childhood psychological trauma often can be. The limply hanging arms, the jutting head, the shuffling gait, the inflexibility - like someone that does not have a connection to his physical self. I really like your critical gender read, though.

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."

A rare miss from Twain.
/pedant

From a humor perspective, it just doesn't work the other way.
posted by Miko at 12:06 PM on October 6, 2020 [27 favorites]

Meanwhile Chris Christie has been in the hospital 3 days and AFAIK there has been no official statement about his condition.
posted by gwint at 12:07 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

Pragmatically, I don't want him to die before the election either. And it's not because I think Pence has a better shot--I think that even if Pence is more electable, I can't imagine that will move the needle enough to offset the confidence hit that a last-second lineup switch would entail.

I want him to be alive when he loses because I want the election to be a referendum on his presidency, in a way that leaves as little to doubt as realistically possible. I want this wound to heal as cleanly as it can, for all our sakes.
posted by churl at 12:10 PM on October 6, 2020 [35 favorites]

Also there's the electoral chaos of allotting votes for a dead candidate

It's also one of the reasons why it's important to take back the senate -- sustaining challenges to an electoral vote requires a majority of both houses. With 51 votes in the Senate (or better 52 because Joe Manchin gonna Joe Manchin) plus a House majority any electoral college trickery can be quashed.

Edit: To clarify, the next congress is sworn in on January 3rd but the official counting of the votes happens on the 6th. Pence would still be the VP and could conceivably cast a tie-breaking vote in his own favor.
posted by nathan_teske at 12:12 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Doubling down on Don't be afraid of COVID: Trump says coronavirus relief negotiations over until after the election (WaPo)
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:13 PM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

I think I have the same angel and the same devil, theodolite!

The best I can do is to compare that devil's talking points to the GOP's own on health policy. If Trump were any other old, fat, or broke person, maybe someone who made "poor life choices," they'd say the same things. But the angel wants compassionate justice, and that's only in our playbook.
posted by armeowda at 12:15 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

... on the other hand, Pence would probably let the stimulus through
posted by Countess Elena at 12:16 PM on October 6, 2020

No more stimulus talks?!? WTF that man is so fucking evil.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:17 PM on October 6, 2020 [15 favorites]

I'm cautiously optimistic since the polls out since Trump's diagnosis and hospitalization don't show any sympathy bounce for him. Now that he's ended any hope of a relief or stimulus package coming before the election, I can't believe there will be any bounce.

His tweet about the relief package sent the Dow down, and I'm curious to see how long that lasts since there will be no money coming until after the election (hopefully until a Biden presidency). He'll manage to undermine his tenuous hold on claims that he can deal with the economy and keep his response to COVID front and center. Amazing.
posted by gladly at 12:17 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

"Further evidence of my theory outlined above, whereby the Trump campaign is trying to weaponize their COVID-19 outbreak for PR purposes."

This is absolutely the plan when it comes to the President, and this approach will probably trickle down to all the Republicans running for office, since they tend to change their tune to match his.

Some columnist I read recently (cant't remember who, all this stuff is starting to blur together) said it best: the strategy is to cast Trump as a hero because he did personal combat against Covid-19. Instead of passively being sick he bravely exposed himself and went mano a mano against the virus particles, eventually emerging triumphant like Rambo. Now all good Republicans need to do the same, ignoring precautions and letting themselves catch the virus so it can be defeated in a series of exciting one on one battles. Wearing masks and socially distancing oneself like the Democrats do is cowardly because it lets the virus win. And by "win" I mean the virus wants to destroy our way of life by wrecking the economy and making us afraid. Mask wearing will only embolden Covid, and before you know it the Invisible Enemy will be driving tanks through America's neighborhoods.

Basically the idea is to recast the virus as a more understandable type of enemy that has to be confronted to be defeated.
posted by Kevin Street at 12:17 PM on October 6, 2020 [23 favorites]

Doubling down on Don't be afraid of COVID: Trump says coronavirus relief negotiations over until after the election (WaPo)

...okay, I cannot make sense of this w/r/t the election. He... wants to seem strong, so he won't bargain with Dems? Nobody who's REALLY an American needs money because they're not real people if their families or support systems were weak enough to die? What? WHAT? Why is he ... I... my head hurts....
posted by tzikeh at 12:19 PM on October 6, 2020 [13 favorites]

Trump says coronavirus relief negotiations over until after the election

You fucking idiot. Pelosi must be over the moon.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:19 PM on October 6, 2020 [30 favorites]

maybe now that the precious market has been hurt, some other powers that be will start talking about the 25th
posted by Countess Elena at 12:21 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Wow, yeah, cutting off stimulus talks seems like an ENORMOUS footgun. The existing message /could/ have been 'we want to help you but the evil dems are asking for too much help for you so we can't agree and get something passed.' But this is a fat middle finger to the working class.
posted by kaibutsu at 12:22 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

Right now I have an angel on my shoulder saying "no one deserves illness and pain. let him lose the election and depart in disgrace." and on the other one a little guy is jumping up and down screaming "oh my GOD just DIE already you rotten old FUCK"

Is it immoral if you feel schadenfreude about Trump’s Covid-19?

I consider myself a utilitarian on this. Millions are going to die if this guy stays alive and I have no faith whatsoever that he will ever get out of office unless he is dead. I have no faith whatsoever anything legal will ever touch him. I feel no shame whatsoever in not wishing the best for him or hoping that he recovers or anything. Nobody is going to stop him from doing anything unless most of the world truly gangs up on him, which does not quite seem to be happening. The only way out of the Trumpmare is death. Yours, his, whichever.

This is just too big and too bad for me to have any kind of angel going on about it. I'm not saying I'm proud of feeling that way, but I am definitely not ashamed about it either. He needs to get out of office ASAP and I don't care how. I don't have faith that any other non-fatal option will do the trick, though. Thinking that the law will someday get him is a fantasy and the election is enough in doubt in this country that I still fear he will win in a rigged landslide. Right now is as hopeful as I've gotten in the last four years, and even then it's only a smallish bit....for now.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:22 PM on October 6, 2020 [37 favorites]

It's a gun to the head, not a middle finger to the face. He's holding us hostage. "You want money? Re-elect me."
posted by Rat Spatula at 12:23 PM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

I mean, he does have a habit of saying the quiet part out loud.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 12:23 PM on October 6, 2020

It seems like the new Republican plan is to get us to herd immunity by personally infecting literally everyone.

I know this was made kind of tongue-in-cheek, but I was actually thinking about this attendant collective mental state this morning. My hypothesis of the WH's (if not the Republicans' more generally) responses and continued cavalier behavior is that they're actually true believers in their bullshit. Like, they've actually convinced themselves that "Covid is no big deal" and "Most people survive" and "Masks don't do anything" / pandemic theater and the ever-present undercurrent of "GAWD the libs are SO insufferable with this crap!"

It's all of a piece with "Bad things don't happen to people like me," which in this case is largely true due to the fallback they all have, of extremely valuable medical care to shore up their chances of survival / ease of transition. Just another case of insufferable bourgeoisie assholes who have no understanding of the suffering of normal people.

On preview: very much related to what Kevin Street said above.
posted by Brak at 12:24 PM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

"Right now I have an angel on my shoulder saying "no one deserves illness and pain. let him lose the election and depart in disgrace." and on the other one a little guy is jumping up and down screaming "oh my GOD just DIE already you rotten old FUCK""

Are you sure you didn't misidentify the two?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:26 PM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

...okay, I cannot make sense of this w/r/t the election

I think it's a variation on "only I can fix it" -- straight-up bribery for votes.

He just forgot that Biden will also have the ability to hand out money.
posted by Dashy at 12:28 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

"You want money? Re-elect me."

Well, except that there will also be money if the other guy is elected. More, in fact.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:28 PM on October 6, 2020 [28 favorites]

The existing message /could/ have been 'we want to help you but the evil dems are asking for too much help for you so we can't agree and get something passed.'

posted by kaibutsu

I heard McSally make this basic argument on the radio this morning. I'm sure she appreciates this stand hours before she debates Kelly.
posted by eckeric at 12:28 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

It's a gun to the head, not a middle finger to the face. He's holding us hostage. "You want money? Re-elect me."

The weird part is that it's such a useless ultimatum, given that the dems have the far larger stimulus proposal. Unless he's actively planning to 'punish' people for voting against him by not signing anything after the election if he loses... Which, actually, doesn't seem out of character.
posted by kaibutsu at 12:29 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

It's almost like he is a dumbass
posted by saturday_morning at 12:30 PM on October 6, 2020 [63 favorites]

It's almost like he's making policy decisions while all drugged up. :P
posted by kaibutsu at 12:31 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

He’s doing his same old “hardball negotiator” schtick. There’s no thought behind it other than that.
posted by wabbittwax at 12:33 PM on October 6, 2020 [17 favorites]

He thinks he's in a dominant position and doesn't need to give anything away. Basically he's treating American citizens the same way he treats contractors who work on Trump properties.
posted by Kevin Street at 12:35 PM on October 6, 2020 [24 favorites]

Suzanne McCain on Twitter: I'm in the hospital with post-covid blood clots in my lungs and legs. I also had a pulmonary infarction. I had steroids last week. Trump is not out of the woods yet, trust me.
posted by tzikeh at 12:37 PM on October 6, 2020 [14 favorites]

The sad part is Trump voters are fucking dumb (you cannot change my mind on this, even if its your sweet mom) and will think "oh he's definitely going to pass the stimulus if he wins cause he said so, it's an unknown with the other guy."
posted by WeekendJen at 12:39 PM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

I remember back in April when bipartisan coronavirus relief was largely a giant and unaccountable giveaway to corporations, and when people complained that the Democrats hadn't done enough to use their leverage to help the poor and working families and tenants and the millions of other suffering Americans, we were told not to worry, because the next stimulus was right around the corner... :(

It just makes me so fucking sad.
posted by Gadarene at 12:41 PM on October 6, 2020 [21 favorites]

It's almost like he's making policy decisions while all drugged up

... and without sufficient oxygen to the brain, of anyone in the room. What could cause that?
posted by Dashy at 12:42 PM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

Right now I have an angel on my shoulder saying "no one deserves illness and pain. let him lose the election and depart in disgrace." and on the other one a little guy is jumping up and down screaming "oh my GOD just DIE already you rotten old FUCK"

Yeah, I only have one of those two guys.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:42 PM on October 6, 2020 [37 favorites]

I vacillate myself but from a moral standpoint, I don't love the image of me rejoicing in someone's demise and possible death even if they're evil and even if that's authentically how I feel. So I appreciated this essay from a Christian perspective, How to Pray When Your Enemy Gets Sick. Perhaps a spiritual loophole but I'll take it.
posted by Miko at 12:46 PM on October 6, 2020 [16 favorites]

I'm a little concerned about my apparently endless capacity for hatred.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:52 PM on October 6, 2020 [69 favorites]

Me, I bought a bottle of champagne on Friday upon hearing the news, and I am just waiting for the moment that I can crack that sucker open and toast his demise. Whether it comes in the form of death, resignation, forced removal, or lost election, I don't care, just the sooner the better.

Please note that I don't even like champagne, but if I'm going to do this kind of thing, I'm gonna do it right and proper.
posted by notoriety public at 12:52 PM on October 6, 2020 [29 favorites]

I thought cake was the tradition
posted by The otter lady at 12:54 PM on October 6, 2020 [18 favorites]

Oh come on liberals, worrying about whether your feelings are moral is based on the idea that your feelings or wishes or hopes or prayers can magically affect the world. They can't. You're not that powerful.

What you feel does. not. matter. to anyone but you. Feel whatever you want and stop frittering away your vital life force worrying about your feelings.
posted by medusa at 12:55 PM on October 6, 2020 [73 favorites]

I still have the unopened bottle of champagne I bought on Election Night 2016. I don't like champagne either, but when the moment comes...
posted by Inkslinger at 12:55 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

Didn't someone post "cake or death" in this thread, or was it an earlier one? This is all starting to blur for me, too.
posted by PhineasGage at 12:56 PM on October 6, 2020

The cake is a lie.

(Actually, if there's one tradition from the megathread era we should bring back, it's cake.)
posted by bcd at 12:56 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Michelle Goldberg of the NYTimes wrote this before Trump stopped the stimulus negotiations, but she has a good point (h/t to Hannah Arendt):

A regime dedicated to creating its own reality doesn’t just use language to lie. To truly animate lies, those in power must behave as if they’re true, no matter who gets hurt.

For the past seven months, Donald Trump’s big lie has been that the coronavirus isn’t as dangerous as scientists say, and that his administration has the virus under control. To sustain this lie, Trump’s circle has had to reject the mitigation and containment strategies that many other countries have used to get a handle on the pandemic, because those strategies are tangible reminders of the threat the virus poses.

posted by mumimor at 12:56 PM on October 6, 2020 [13 favorites]

Feel whatever you want and stop frittering away your vital life force worrying about your feelings.

I hate you.
posted by swift at 12:56 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

If Trump was some rotten old bastard hiding out in his castle and being an asshole to his family I could care less what he does.

As President he is an existential threat and while I don't want to see him suffer, I think of him with the same regard I would have for a rabid dog running in the street outside my house. If I could snap my fingers and send him to fantasy Trumpland for the rest of his life that would be great, but in this world I'll be happy if he dies and no longer has any power over me.
posted by benzenedream at 12:57 PM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

Actually, if there's one ~~tradition from the megathread era we should bring back~~ thing we should discuss in every thread, it's cake.
posted by medusa at 12:58 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

I hate you

Right on! You've got this!
posted by medusa at 12:59 PM on October 6, 2020 [43 favorites]

If he dies before the election, this nation will be cast into an even more catastrophic clusterfuck than the one it's already in. Also, I want to see him suffer. Those are the only reasons I don't want him to die right now.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:59 PM on October 6, 2020 [16 favorites]

What do "liberals" have to do with anything here?
posted by biogeo at 1:00 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

I just assume he’s the next Hitler, and have no problem watching the entitled rapist fraud lying traitor racist petty bully puppet of thieves suffer, suffer, realize I and thousands are watching him suffer, lose and then die.
posted by Harry Caul at 1:01 PM on October 6, 2020 [20 favorites]

Oh come on liberals, worrying about whether your feelings are moral is based on the idea that your feelings or wishes or hopes or prayers can magically affect the world. They can't. You're not that powerful.

Er...no it's not. It's based on how you want your orientation to the world to feel inside of you. It's about the inner environment you want to create.

I get what you're trying to say but I'm going to politely invite you to let people feel what they feel, and not tell them to not feel what you think they shouldn't feel. People obviously are finding some meaning discussing how they personally are handling their inner moral discussion. It will be awesome if we can leave it there.
posted by Miko at 1:01 PM on October 6, 2020 [43 favorites]

What you feel does. not. matter. to anyone but you.

One's feelings tend to be reflected in one's actions, so yes, what I feel does end up mattering to others.
posted by reventlov at 1:02 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

Trump is in terrible health If Trump is re-elected he aint going to make it thru the entire four years
posted by robbyrobs at 1:02 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

"Right now I have an angel on my shoulder saying "no one deserves illness and pain. let him lose the election and depart in disgrace." and on the other one a little guy is jumping up and down screaming "oh my GOD just DIE already you rotten old FUCK""

Mine is a little different. The angel is saying "oh my GOD just DIE already you rotten old FUCK" and the devil is saying "wait. Wait. Let him survive to November 4 or 5. Let him realize he's a loser. THEN let him die."
posted by nushustu at 1:04 PM on October 6, 2020 [27 favorites]

"You want money? Re-elect me."

This would only work if Biden were saying that he would not provide a stimulus. Is this the steroids talking or does Trump literally not understand that the best thing he could do would be push for a lavish stimulus right the fuck now?

And Mr Market has a sad, I see.

At this rate, the financial industry and the secret service may coup him before the election.
posted by Frowner at 1:04 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

Ha ha, even though everything is a nightmare and we live in hellworld I am still enjoying envisioning the panic and hair-tearing among Republican handlers and moneymen right now. Suffer, you fuckers.
posted by Frowner at 1:06 PM on October 6, 2020 [25 favorites]

There was an anthology of the poetry of famous poets of the 20th century. In introducing E.E. Cummings, the anthologist said that he was one of the few poets who kept his humanity through World War II. I thought to myself, most poets lost their humanity?
Maybe most people did. America was tired enough that fire-bombing or atomic bombing a city seemed a reasonable choice.

I'm just saying, don't let this motherfucker steal your humanity.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:06 PM on October 6, 2020 [29 favorites]

I just want him to lose convincingly enough that there won't be any recount bullshit. Everything after that is gravy.
posted by pracowity at 1:07 PM on October 6, 2020 [24 favorites]

There is a limited frame of time for the Senate to do anything.

What are they gonna do pass a stimulus bill that Moscow Mitch said was 600 million too high or fill a vacant SCOTUS seat.

Dumbass took his marching orders from Moscow Mitch and is praying that he can get ACB to get him into office.
posted by Max Power at 1:11 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

I just want him to lose convincingly enough that there won't be any recount bullshit. Everything after that is gravy.

At this point the larger a potential win the louder the arguments for fraud will grow.
posted by Max Power at 1:13 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

I just want him to lose convincingly enough that there won't be any recount bullshit. Everything after that is gravy.

I do, too, which is why I want him to see the loss and experience it as a crushing tsunami, all the more since the Trump campaign is talking to Republican state legislatures in Arizona, Florida, Michigan, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin to instead put forth electors for Trump in the event he loses those states.

Also reported in The Atlantic
posted by glaucon at 1:13 PM on October 6, 2020 [31 favorites]

Side question: are people really referring to Barrett as ACB now? I dunno. Seems a bit too chummy.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:16 PM on October 6, 2020 [23 favorites]

"...or does Trump literally not understand that the best thing he could do would be push for a lavish stimulus right the fuck now?"

It's this one. People are always overestimating Trump, but the man's been perfectly consistent the last four years. He genuinely doesn't understand, and never will.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:16 PM on October 6, 2020 [16 favorites]

He should probably just hit the links, since he's completely over COVID.
posted by swift at 1:17 PM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

Barrett doesn't deserve an initialism, as far as I'm concerned. I'm surprised it's taken off.
posted by biogeo at 1:20 PM on October 6, 2020 [22 favorites]

At this point the larger a potential [Biden] win the louder the arguments for fraud will grow.

I 100% disagree with this assessment.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:21 PM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

Craighead Co. (Arkansas) Republican Committee leader dies of COVID-19

He had recently attended a largely mask-free Reagan Day event in mid-September.
posted by emjaybee at 1:21 PM on October 6, 2020 [16 favorites]

If a nickname must be used, let it be Amy Covid Barrett.
posted by jedicus at 1:22 PM on October 6, 2020 [72 favorites]

I understand his death would satisfy many people's revenge lust. But it potentially gives us President Pence which is more terrifying, IMO. I want to see Trump, impeached/indicted and put into jail.

My spidey sense prediction for the election: Biden loses the election. Cheeto lives. House stays blue. Senate goes blue --> Begin impeachment.

LOL you know that would just give you President Pence, right?
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:24 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Me, I bought a bottle of champagne on Friday upon hearing the news, and I am just waiting for the moment that I can crack that sucker open and toast his demise. Whether it comes in the form of death, resignation, forced removal, or lost election, I don't care, just the sooner the better.

I thought cake was the tradition.

I have something else to suggest: brownies. In the debate thread I suggested I might post my mother's brownie recipe in the next debate thread in order to help everyone cope, but I've since come up with a better strategy. As the current pinned tweet on my Twitter account (and a post on my Facebook page) says:

Americans, as a Canadian, I'm going to try a little shameless foreign interference in your election by bribing you to do the right thing. Elect Joe Biden on November 3, 2020 & I'll post my mom's brownie recipe right here on Twitter for you all to enjoy. Deal? #BidenHarris2020

Sorry to anyone who was counting on emotional support brownies to help them through the subsequent debates, but I think that it's best that I employ my mother's stellar brownie recipe as a my only possible leverage in this dire situation which I cannot otherwise hope to influence. You want Mom Swan's brownie recipe? YOU VOTE THAT FUCKER OUT OF OFFICE ON NOVEMBER 3RD AND I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU.
posted by orange swan at 1:25 PM on October 6, 2020 [41 favorites]

I don't understand why. It should be so hard. Just to use her last name. Coney Barrett or Barrett should work to identify her, no?
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:25 PM on October 6, 2020 [12 favorites]

My spidey sense prediction for the election: Biden loses the election. Cheeto lives. House stays blue. Senate goes blue --> Begin impeachment.

I've been feeling for a while (and telling anyone who'll listen to me) that getting the senate and holding the house seems more important than winning the presidency. Impeachment is only the tip of the iceberg of things that could be accomplished, even with an unfriendly president.
posted by newpotato at 1:28 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

I think that it's best that I employ my mother's brownie recipe as a carrot
I don't understand why. It should be so hard. Just to use her last name. Coney Barrett
brownie recipe as a carrot
her last name. Coney Barrett
brownie carrot
Coney Barrett
posted by rory at 1:30 PM on October 6, 2020 [18 favorites]

Trump needs to lose the election and swiftly die. Noone should have to work with that windbag now and certainly not when he's completely incapacitated and needs diaper changes.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:31 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Joe Biden tests negative for coronavirus again.
posted by Preserver at 1:32 PM on October 6, 2020 [53 favorites]

I thought it was pronounced 'Twice-Removed Vichy Stooge Placeholder for Merrick Garland'.
posted by riverlife at 1:32 PM on October 6, 2020 [20 favorites]

LOL you know that would just give you President Pence, right?

Impeach and indict Pence as well (he was heavily involved in the Ukraine scandal.) Reach for the stars.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 1:32 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

C'mon people, DO IT FOR THE BROWNIES!!!!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:32 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

My spidey sense prediction for the election: Biden loses the election. Cheeto lives. House stays blue. Senate goes blue

It's extremely unlikely that Biden would lose the election and Dems would gain control of the Senate.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 1:33 PM on October 6, 2020 [12 favorites]

At this point the larger a potential [Biden] win the louder the arguments for fraud will grow.

I think there's a pretty large "canny" valley here. My (eminently non-expert) speculation/opinion is that if Biden wins the popular vote by anything greater than 60/40, up to 70/30, chances of contesting the results go down. Somewhere greater than 70%, and people start to question in the other direction to varying degress, and of course in the "dictator" 90%+ it's a foregone conclusion that results will absolutely be challenged.

I don't actually believe that Biden will win more than 70% of the popular vote anyway, so I think that speculation is largely irrelevant. But anything convincing below that, out of the mid- to high-50s, is going to dissuade claims of fraud more than it will stoke them. I couch it like that because there is a segment of the electorate and leadership that will push to contest the election results no matter what the outcome.
posted by Brak at 1:34 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

ACB. She can't even get the alphabet in the right order.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:36 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

Trump campaign is talking to Republican state legislatures in Arizona, Florida, Michigan, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin to instead put forth electors for Trump in the event he loses those states.

I have largely been just reading (obsessively) and favoriting in this thread for emotional health reasons, but WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
posted by invincible summer at 1:36 PM on October 6, 2020 [35 favorites]

I also understand that the percentage of popular vote means mostly fuck-all in the actual results. I just went for a more simplistic model.
posted by Brak at 1:37 PM on October 6, 2020

I've found this Wikipedia article on landslide election victories both helpful and inspiring. They do happen.
posted by swift at 1:38 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

It's extremely unlikely that Biden would lose the election and Dems would gain control of the Senate.

Prediction models had Clinton at roughly 70-80% chance of winning the election in 2016. Weirder things have happened.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 1:38 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

I just don’t know what else this is other than collapse, and I’ve been doing some thinking about how I am rooting for Trump to make it to Election Day to lose. It is a hope borne of the belief that somehow his loss in the election brings about a magical change that allows our country to reverse itself from a death spiral and go back to “the way it was.”

The way it was is gone, and I think forever. That doesn’t mean I’m not voting for Biden or GOTV for Biden, but this last week of Trump acting like a psycho in the debate and then getting COVID made me realize in wishing for or against his death I was again hoping for an outcome that fixes this madness and sickness we’ve been experiencing for how many years? Is it really the last four? I don’t think so. The 2008 recession was a moment, the Iraq War, the 2000 election, too. There have been too many moments where the water is creeping to boiling and now I know, too late, I’m the damn frog. So are we all.

His death or life or loss in the election won’t move his base. Trump is the symptom, not the disease, and the disease has rotted out enough of this country that people aren’t wearing masks in a global pandemic and 40%+ of America supports him no matter what. Someone with deep pockets will continue this madness long after Trump is gone, whether that’s soon or not.

I can’t stop watching this spectacle but I can’t stop feeling like this is yet another moment that only affirms the truly dangerous reality sitting behind my hopes and wishes.
posted by glaucon at 1:39 PM on October 6, 2020 [34 favorites]

Impeach and indict Pence as well (he was heavily involved in the Ukraine scandal.) Reach for the stars.

This is funny considering that, even if the senate were to flip and trump was once again impeached, the only way to get him out of office would be for two-thirds of the senate to vote for a conviction. These stars you are reaching for might just be motes of airborne dust.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:39 PM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

Trumpists/Republicans will contest the election results regardless, and have been positioning themselves to be the sole arbiters of the final decision on that. A landslide Biden victory (I'm not anticipating this, even with Trump's own campaign to self-sabotage) would give them the pretense of declaring the election completely fraudulent across the board. Most US presidential elections are a closer race, so a disproportionate Biden win would be spun as looking suspicious.

Being prepared for how to respond to these scenarios matters as much as actually getting out the vote.
posted by Lonnrot at 1:39 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

Prediction models had Clinton at roughly 70-80% chance of winning the election in 2016. Weirder things have happened.

Yes, but votes for Democratic senators are very highly correlated with votes for Biden for president. If Biden doesn't win the presidency, it means that Dems are having a very bad night, which means there's almost no chance they will gain control of the Senate.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 1:42 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Also, re: the discussion above about feeling bad for feeling hate:

Hate feels terrible. Rage feels terrible. The extent to which I feel hatred and rage are well-justified in the current world situation just compounds that problem.

It's not that I'm worried that my hate and rage are going to change the world in some undefinable way. It's that I'm worried that in some undefinable way, they may be changing me.
posted by invincible summer at 1:43 PM on October 6, 2020 [41 favorites]

maybe now that the precious market has been hurt, some other powers that be will start talking about the 25th

I have not doubt that Trump manipulates the market both up and down. Tariff war with China? Yeah, he used that on-again-off-again diplomacy to make sure he somehow made money.
posted by terrapin at 1:44 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

Whether the scale of the harm he has already done to the world or will continue to do is "enough" is irrelevant - he does seemingly nothing but harm. Wishing him a swift recovery is wishing for a worse world.

I see it as an order of priorities. First, I want him out of office. Second, I want him prosecuted and convicted for all of the crimes he's so obviously committed. My ideal scenario has him suffer through enough 'rona to understand the pain he's been inflicting, get voted out in November, then be prosecuted and have to spend enough time in jail (which should be the rest of his life) watching his myriad fraudulent businesses torn apart, his children who aided in his crimes be prosecuted, and his legacy as a cheat, a fraud, and a failure be cemented in front of his eyes, while he eats the same prison gruel as thousands upon thousands of people without immense privilege have been forced to consume over minor charges and wrongful convictions. I would like a situation where he is an object lesson to every other trump-like slug that there is a world that is coming for them.

This is, of course, a pipe dream. If he goes out with Covid-19, I guess I'll take it.
posted by mrgoat at 1:46 PM on October 6, 2020 [21 favorites]

Impeachment is certainly a sideshow circus whose time is over. There should be rules, enforced about conduct of the president. No president will ever be removed by impeachment, it's kind of designed that way.
posted by Harry Caul at 1:46 PM on October 6, 2020 [7 favorites]

I've found this Wikipedia article on landslide election victories both helpful and inspiring. They do happen.

Yeah, but it's important to note that those landslides are in the Electoral College. Percentages there are largely insulated from direct claims of voter fraud, due to the nature of winner-take-all selections in the EC.

Claims of voter fraud, when they come, will be based in the count of votes from the electorate. That's the stage in which they can claim that inauthentic votes have been cast.
posted by Brak at 1:47 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Honestly, her last name is similar enough to other common last names that remembering exactly what it is and how to spell it is more mental effort than I am willing to devote to her.
posted by ckape at 1:47 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Good to remember: In 1984 Reagan won 49 of 50 states and yet received only 58.8% of the popular vote. A landslide victory in a US presidential election will likely never get larger than that.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:49 PM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

It's not that I'm worried that my hate and rage are going to change the world in some undefinable way. It's that I'm worried that in some undefinable way, they may be changing me.

Hate is a natural reaction to 24 hour news coverage that wants you to feel that way. It's also a complete waste of time.

Consider helping out victims of the regime. Maybe start here. Doing feels a lot better than stewing.
posted by StarkRoads at 1:49 PM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

Can I just call her Hon. Chili Dog?
posted by LionIndex at 1:49 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

I find the reluctance to actually use her very short last name to be sexist. I get we all dislike this woman and her potential future on the court, but if she were a man, I have no doubt the last name of Barrett would be typed out repeatedly and without complaint.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:50 PM on October 6, 2020 [42 favorites]

The way it was is gone, and I think forever.

This is not all bad. A lot of the pain some of us (the less marginalized) are feeling is pain the marginalized were already feeling. There were already people being hurt by ICE. There were already police getting away with murder. There were already people in government whose only goal was to protect and further enrich their wealthy friends. The way it was was not all that great, many of us just had the luxury to ignore it. We don't anymore.

If we/our country survive this (something I used to type ironically but not so much now), then we will need to be focused on building a new normal. We have to do the work of looking at this darkness and recognizing it has always been there and will always erupt and poison us all unless we make change happen.
posted by emjaybee at 1:50 PM on October 6, 2020 [32 favorites]

“To the pain.”
posted by snofoam at 1:50 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

If you haven't noticed they've already been contesting the results for months and nothing has even been counted yet.

No matter the results, the republicans aren't just going to roll over.
posted by Max Power at 1:51 PM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

Barrett, as in Barrett's Privateers, as in state-sponsored violence and plunder. Easy!
posted by saturday_morning at 1:51 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

One post deleted for violating the conten policy, being strongly critical of someone is okay, but please don't wish someone's death here. Yeah, even that person.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:51 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

Or alternatively as in Barrett's esophagus, as in a malignant consequence of chronic acid reflux.
posted by saturday_morning at 1:52 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

It's not that I'm worried that my hate and rage are going to change the world in some undefinable way. It's that I'm worried that in some undefinable way, they may be changing me

I feel exactly like this. I've fallen into a place where it all just feels futile. I spend waaay too much time on the internet, arguing with people and getting riled up. I hate this feeling, but I just can't let it go.

Jeez, I just found out about Eddie Van Halen passing (did y'all know that?) and I couldn't be arsed to care. In another time, I'd be really sad about it. Now - I'm just not feeling anything, because I feel like the country is spiraling into collapse and that seems more important right now.
posted by sundrop at 1:53 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

Can we please call ACB "Ofjesse" from now on?
posted by kiwi-epitome at 1:55 PM on October 6, 2020 [32 favorites]

(For the people's review of prior art on 'To the Pain', for our consideration of its application in the present circumstances.)
posted by kaibutsu at 1:57 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Meanwhile Chris Christie has been in the hospital 3 days and AFAIK there has been no official statement about his condition.

Say what you will about Chris Christie, he represents New Jersey so perfectly. He's like our shitty, dumb Gritty.
posted by phooky at 2:02 PM on October 6, 2020 [15 favorites]

My (eminently non-expert) speculation/opinion is that if Biden wins the popular vote by anything greater than 60/40, up to 70/30, chances of contesting the results go down. Somewhere greater than 70%, and people start to question in the other direction to varying degress, and of course in the "dictator" 90%+ it's a foregone conclusion that results will absolutely be challenged.

I was thinking about all that last night and my non-expert opinion is that Trump's "fraud" predictions are dead in the water. The whole thing.

Nobody will believe his loss wasn't both/either earned (performance) and reasonable (illness), perhaps moreso now that he's cut off any hope of middle class and below getting $$$ to survive. Sure, the Roger Stone machine will launch into hyperdrive to cast doubt via the incels, Proud Boys (but I repeat myself), and the straight up 2nd Amendment racists, but it will be a silly dead-end. They will find a mail truck with a flat tire and extrapolate to no end of sinister implications.

That said, I can't yet let myself believe that Trump is himself hopeless, the last 16 hours of Tweets notwithstanding, and online arguments for the rest of the week will be the tea leaves that are read in light of the VP debate.
posted by rhizome at 2:02 PM on October 6, 2020 [13 favorites]

invincible summer, I can understand that and for what it's worth, I'm not an absolutist about this. My disgust is directed at those who have been lecturing others for not feeling sympathy from what I perceive as a completely false sense of moral superiority, and elected officials and media pundits with actual platforms who really ought to know better. I have friends who don't agree with my position, and I listen to and still respect them.

Maybe I've already spent too long in the fields of bitterness, but I don't feel much of anything at all toward Trump as an individual. It is all harm reduction calculus, and separating my personal response (if he dies, I'll breathe a quick sigh of relief) from risk assessment (and then I'll find out whether his death deflates or inflames the movement he represents). But the implication that feeling anything other than agape for an actual tyrant makes one a "bad person," the wishy-washy bipartisanship, that is all a stupid child's understanding of morality. A disease doesn't care how you feel about it, as is being demonstrated to Republicans now. Similarly, a desire to only speak positive things of fascists who are suffering is tone policing nonsense.
posted by Lonnrot at 2:06 PM on October 6, 2020 [12 favorites]

Biden at Gettysburg, today: "When [hate is] given oxygen, when it’s treated as normal, we have opened a door in this country that we must rush to close."

Emphasis mine, but I think we all see what he did there.
posted by armeowda at 2:12 PM on October 6, 2020 [75 favorites]

This is not all bad....The way it was was not all that great, many of us just had the luxury to ignore it. We don't anymore.

...If we/our country survive this (something I used to type ironically but not so much now), then we will need to be focused on building a new normal. We have to do the work of looking at this darkness and recognizing it has always been there and will always erupt and poison us all unless we make change happen.

Thank you for putting it that way and sharing that perspective. It hit a nerve in a good way. And it’s a more productive way of focusing energy and thinking about this world and what can be built instead.
posted by glaucon at 2:14 PM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

Ben Collins:
BREAKING: Facebook bans QAnon across its platforms

Facebook "will remove Facebook Pages, Groups and Instagram accounts for representing QAnon" like any other militarized social movement, militia or terror group.
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:18 PM on October 6, 2020 [71 favorites]

'Bye, Qelicia! Guess it's about time for you to "go all."
posted by armeowda at 2:21 PM on October 6, 2020 [18 favorites]

Lonnrot, what you're characterizing as "a stupid child's understanding of morality" seems like an absurd straw man position that no one here has stated, and putting it in those terms is pretty offensive.
posted by biogeo at 2:22 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

Thanks, Lonnrot, that makes perfect sense. And for me it is seriously all about how gross I feel these days, like I'm just swimming in a sewer any time I get anywhere near the news and cannot get the gunk off, no matter what I do. I'm not on team sympathy by a very, very long shot.
posted by invincible summer at 2:24 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

I'm deeply concerned that Trump, feeling that surge you get from a shot of steroids, has decided that he's healthy and will make himself much worse.

If it were just that, I'll confess to schadenfreude and I wouldn't be concerned at all.

What worries me is that if he does take a sudden turn for the ill, or even worse actually dies, then a small number of his more heavily armed cultists will decide the "Deep State" assassinated him and go on spree shootings or target Democrats and/or liberals for what they imagine are retaliatory assassination.

I desperately want Trump to live at least two more years, not because I relish the thought of him losing the election and his emotional agony, though I do, but because I want him visibly out of the Presidency and a couple of years for things to decompress and the MAGA cult to stand down a bit before he kicks the bucket.

I also think that Trump's maskless, gasping, speech about how COVID isn't so bad and we have to stop being afraid of it will be studied by generations of future historians as one of the turning points in US history. Whether turning back to reality, or turning further from it I don't know. But it was clearly one of those history defining moments.

Also, just for point of reference, the MAGA position is now mocking concern for the 220,000 dead. On a couple of message boards I've see people using the phrase "but mah 220,000 dead!" as a way of indicating contempt for anyone who takes COVID seriously.

That's where we are now as a nation, not merely lacking compassion for the dead but actively mocking them.
posted by sotonohito at 2:26 PM on October 6, 2020 [40 favorites]

A possible reason Trump punched himself in the face today (electorally speaking) and is causing even more harm to the nation in the bargain: Arthur Laffer (of cocktail napkin fame) recently paid him a visit.
posted by theory at 2:26 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

Facebook could have chosen to ban QAnon and like groups the whole time. They didn't.
posted by mrgoat at 2:26 PM on October 6, 2020 [54 favorites]

I don't wish for Trump (or anyone for that matter) to die. I understand his death would satisfy many people's revenge lust. But it potentially gives us President Pence which is more terrifying, IMO. I want to see Trump, impeached/indicted and put into jail. I want to see our faith restored in our justice system.

Yeah but you know none of that is going to happen, right? I mean, he won't be impeached, he won't be indicted, he won't go to jail. None of that will ever, ever happen. He might even get re-elected (fraudulently or not).

You know...

I used to follow politics so closely. I was an avid reader. I engaged in adult conversation about important issues with people who held different beliefs than I do. Sometimes, someone else changed my mind about something. Sometimes I changed theirs. But that world is gone and it's never coming back. Now, as several have pointed out, some of that is to the good; I know I have profited (in many ways) from extant system features (policies, habits, practices) that actively harmed others. I know we have a lot of work to do. But looking at this man, at his administration, at this point in history, I can't imagine this election going well for us. I look at those photos of Trump supporters wearing "Fuck Your Feelings" t-shirts and I think my god how did we get here. How have white Americans come to be so desperate to appear oppressed. How has actual hatred become a political party platform. How has denying science, facts, how has that become a point of pride.

I know that if the human race lasts another 50 years or so (I won't live to see it), there will be lots of books written about this era that will have enough hindsight to see more than we can see right now. I'm sure Reagan will feature prominently, but others too, and not just Republican presidents.

But fucking hell.

It brings to mind this drawing from Allie Brosh. This is how I feel now. All the time, but especially these past four years, and extra especially right now.

I was 2 months and change old when Neil Armstrong walked on the moon. My mom told me that she held me on her lap to watch it on the black-and-white TV she and my dad had, and she talked to me about the kind of world I was going to inherit.

Boy, was she wrong.
posted by tzikeh at 2:28 PM on October 6, 2020 [61 favorites]

If I may, anyone on the type of steroids Trump is on shouldn't be allowed to make any important decisions, sign a check etc. Anyway, that's exactly what they told me when I took a 5-day course of steroids earlier this year.

And boy, were they right. Felt really, really good but also self-aggrandizing, overboard in most feelings, felt able to do anything or accomplish anything but was only interested in a few very specific things. In short, a fair bit off of normal and definitely should not have been allowed to be in charge of anything at that point and for a little while afterwards.

(And, I understood perfectly well what was going on and why. Still, I couldn't really counteract the feelings & impulses, except to just stay home and rest and for heaven's sake don't do anything like making a public statement or posting on social media. Whereas, Trump shows no sign whatsoever of understanding anything except "Wow these doctors are the BEST! They've made me feel better than EVAR!!1!!! I'm doing GRATE!!!!!11!! I can make 10X my usual Twitters because I'm FULL OF IDEAS!!1!!!")

Anyway, the past couple of days confirm clearly that Trump shouldn't be driving a car or making a significant personal purchase, let alone running an entire country.

And all this with no apparent oversight or checks on his current impulses, at all.

We all know he's usually like this anyway, but clearly it's turned up by a significant factor.

It will be interesting to see how the outlook changes when he crashes out from this. Cause he definitely will--only questions are: How soon, How far, and How long.
posted by flug at 2:30 PM on October 6, 2020 [18 favorites]

Facebook could have chosen to ban QAnon and like groups the whole time. They didn't.

Yeah but in banning now they have enabled greater profits while also being able to distance themselves from any Q related violence on or after Election Day! Yet another moral victory for Zuck.
posted by glaucon at 2:30 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

Trump's every turn is marked by pettiness, spite, and cruelty, and he actively and continually makes the world a shittier place. I feel certain that most of his biographers wouldn't be able to point to any notable acts of kindness he's ever done, but that's only because he hasn't yet died. Once he has, that will be the go-to answer: "he was an asshole, then he died, and the world was much relieved."

As soon as he's out of power, for whatever reason, comes the daunting, interminable work of unfucking up everything that man ever touched.
posted by johnofjack at 2:30 PM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

How Hatred Came to Dominate American Politics

Broadly speaking, there are three trends that we can point to. The first is the steady nationalization of American politics. The second is the sorting of Democrats and Republicans along urban/rural and culturally liberal/culturally conservative lines, and the third is the increasingly narrow margins in national elections.

I also blame the demonization of the Democratic Party by the Republicans that started with New Gingrich in the '80s and has gotten increasingly worse since (basically my entire adult life).

There's also the unrepresentative nature of our electoral system. If one person equaled one vote a lot fewer Republicans would hold national office.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:31 PM on October 6, 2020 [36 favorites]

So much hate. Here, on Metafilter? I did not expect it to get here. It is understandable, but sad.

So much fire. Here, in this Californian city? I did not expect it to get here. It is understandable, but sad.

One cannot blame the Eucalyptus tree for bursting into flames. But where is the rain?
posted by brambleboy at 2:31 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

How have white Americans come to be so desperate to appear oppressed. How has actual hatred become a political party platform. How has denying science, facts, how has that become a point of pride.
Well you have to go all the way back to a little thing called the Constitutional Convention and the tantrums behind closed doors that ensued, and proved to be inspiringly successful.
posted by Harry Caul at 2:32 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

If only the United States had some historical experience of dealing with mad kings...
posted by acb at 2:34 PM on October 6, 2020 [13 favorites]

Well you have to go all the way back to a little thing called the Constitutional Convention and the tantrums behind closed doors that ensued, and proved to be inspiringly successful.

Thanks for the condescension, but you know perfectly well my questions were broader than "Rich white men made the rules."
posted by tzikeh at 2:42 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

People have been surprised Trump got dexamethasone so 'early' in treatment (Derek Lowe, for one), because if dex is given too soon, before the immune system has a chance to mount a full response, the infection runs wild and the patient is in deep trouble, so it's reserved for a later stage when the prospect of a life threatening 'cytokine storm' rears its ugly head. And that, along with some confusing and hastily retracted White House statements about when Trump was first diagnosed, have led to speculation they knew he had it days before they are willing to admit.

We now know that the Trump delegation arrived at the debate venue too late for the agreed upon Covid tests to be administered to Trump and party.

I didn't watch the debate; I just couldn't. But I have a question for those who did. Does Trump's erratic behavior make more sense under the assumption that he didn't care at all about winning, and that his primary objective was to infect Joe Biden with the virus? Because I don't think even the Fox-corrupted sector of the American electorate would vote for a President who has Covid and all that entails if they could vote for a candidate who doesn't, and I believe Trump and his advisers think so too.
posted by jamjam at 2:44 PM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

I didn't watch the debate; I just couldn't. But I have a question for those who did. Does Trump's erratic behavior make more sense under the assumption that he didn't care at all about winning, and that his primary objective was to infect Joe Biden with the virus?

No. He acted the same in debate as he always acts. He was actually slightly more sedate and slightly less racist, even though he interrupted a lot.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:48 PM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

No condescension meant. I was (obviously badly) referring to the slave states repeated insistence to derail the Convention on every issue that they refused to budge on. Not so much the rich white writing of the rules but the angry, performative, science-denying stance as a successful route to power. And it has been a technique for moneyed wild eyed power since. It's THE longest tradition in american politics: bullying partisanship.
posted by Harry Caul at 2:49 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Sorry, jamjam, but I can't believe that. I've already read too much about people who talk about his 'heroic fight' with the disease. Almost as if he can 'beat' it in a general sense, not just inside his own body.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:50 PM on October 6, 2020

But I have a question for those who did. Does Trump's erratic behavior make more sense under the assumption that he didn't care at all about winning, and that his primary objective was to infect Joe Biden with the virus?

No he looked and acted coked out of his mind.
posted by glaucon at 2:50 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Yes, the tides of willful ignorance and violence often rise and ebb in American political life. A good book on an earlier era is historian Joanne Freeman's The Field of Blood: Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War.
posted by PhineasGage at 2:51 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

If he dies before the election, this nation will be cast into an even more catastrophic clusterfuck than the one it's already in. Also, I want to see him suffer. Those are the only reasons I don't want him to die right now.

How about just after polls close on the West Coast on November 3?
posted by HumuloneRanger at 2:52 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

Washington Post is reporting that the White House approved the new standards for coronavirus vaccines. Not much info yet, this is the full update:

The White House on Tuesday approved tough new standards for coronavirus vaccines after weeks of delay, but only after the Food and Drug Administration unilaterally published the guidelines on its own website as part of its briefing materials for outside vaccine advisers.

The standards, which would be used for an emergency authorization of a vaccine, are the same as the ones the agency proposed weeks ago as part of an effort to boost public confidence in an eventual vaccine. In many cases, they are close to the standards for a full approval. But the White House, worried the criteria would delay authorization of a vaccine, presumably beyond the Nov. 3 election, sat on the guidance.
posted by amarynth at 2:53 PM on October 6, 2020 [7 favorites]

Let's wait for Hawaii.
posted by PhineasGage at 2:53 PM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

> Dr. Hahn was overly influenced by his agency’s career scientists

> Donald Trump’s big lie has been that the coronavirus isn’t as dangerous as scientists say

> How has denying science, facts, how has that become a point of pride.

I think we're familiar with this position, but in his recent Covid-Cough Interview, Guiliani came pretty close to explaining exactly how Republican politicians view science and scientists:

Biden, Giuliani declared, doesn't "really understand what scientists are," adding that people should listen to their doctors because "they know your personal history. Doctors really aren't scientists. Scientists almost always have competing opinions. That's what science is about."

See, scientists aren't a single solid impenetrable shield-wall of unified opinion on any particular matter, plus they keep seeking further information and adjust their conclusions in light of it, plus they discuss things openly.

All meaning that in sum, they are easy prey for people who think like Republicans:

- Even if scientific opinion is 99/1 that can still be characterized as "disagreement". And you can bring in one or two or three from the 1%, have them testify, and it carries just as much weight in a hearing or in the media as the other side, who brought in 3 people from the 99%.

- I can always characterize scientific opinion as "diverse and not completely settled"--even if it's actually 90/10, 99/1, or even 99.99/0.01--which allows me to chose whichever opinion I like best because "scientists" support it, just like the opposing opinion.

- The fact that knowledge, conclusions, and recommendations adjust over time as more information is gathered, is not one of science's greatest strengths but a convenient attack vector for media appearances.

- Because scientific discourse is public, it's easy to find many examples of varying ideas, changing conclusions over time, etc etc etc, which are easy to fling about as sound bites to easily muddy the waters.

- No need to discriminate among issues that are currently unsettled and under vigorous discussion, issues where little is known yet, issues that have a greater degree of clarity, and issues that have nearly complete clarity and nearly unanimous agreement in a field. All of these can be characterized just the same as "disagreement in the scientific community" which, again, allows me to choose whichever answer I personally like best.

"Scientists almost always have competing opinions. That's what science is about."

And, that's what Guiliani notices most and likes best about science.
posted by flug at 2:54 PM on October 6, 2020 [39 favorites]

I'm not a fan of Jonathan Chait, but I do like his headline, Trump Turning Down Pelosi’s Stimulus Deal Is the Worst Political Blunder in History. I wonder if it's simply a matter of time left before the election, now even shorter since so many Republican senators are in quarantine. McConnell can't get a stimulus bill and Barrett confirmed before the election. So, Trump or McConnell or both decided that a justice was worth more — to rally the base? to hand Trump the election if possible?
posted by gladly at 2:55 PM on October 6, 2020 [14 favorites]

More White House aides have learned they are positive for coronavirus, including an assistant press secretary, Jalen Drummond, sources tell me. He is one of Kayleigh McEnany's deputies and was in the Rose Garden for the Amy Coney Barrett event.
posted by gwint at 2:56 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

Strident interrupting is what would be more likely to transmit the virus, because vocalizing has been tipped before as a primary mechanism of transmission, in cases like the infamous church choir and others.

And don't forget the multiple reversals by the CDC over the last few days about airborne transmission of the virus, which looks to me like a CDC in rebellion against Trump appointees determined to take that off the table.
posted by jamjam at 2:57 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

If I were Biden, I would refuse to debate Typhoid Donnie unless it was held over Zoom.
posted by caution live frogs at 2:57 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

Jennifer Jacobs is a goddamn national hero.
posted by current resident at 2:59 PM on October 6, 2020 [14 favorites]

How have white Americans come to be so desperate to appear oppressed. How has actual hatred become a political party platform. How has denying science, facts, how has that become a point of pride.

Because the truly oppressed have been demanding redress for past and present wrongs in an effective way, but in the USA, nobody can have anything unless regular white people can have it, too (rich white people, if the context is tax benefits). It's essentially white people stealing from black people in yet another way, and their imagination is limitless.

This is why there's a reflexive All Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter (police being the defenders of white property), "reverse racism," and carceral reform focusing on harmonizing the treatment of brown people with whites (rather than the unconscionable vice-versa), and so on. Anything proposed to benefit a demographic primarily brown, almost instantly white people will complain in some form of "what about me?" Tax money for breakfast at school in disadvantaged neighborhoods? White people demand an equal amount to spend on...whatever, in schools without food-insecure students.

I don't know the cultural genealogy of this, it would be an interesting history to plumb, but it's been apparent to me for many years now.
posted by rhizome at 3:03 PM on October 6, 2020 [18 favorites]

I want to see him suffer.

I guess I don't, weirdly. I didn't know that 'til I watched him yesterday on the balcony looking distressed and popping his lips like a debowled goldfish. That was painful. It was like the thing I can barely remember but it was way back in year one and somebody, a Russian diplomat? heard he had fired Comey and burst out in incredulous laughter at how stupid he is on camera for everyone to see. I felt sorry for Trump. I don't know what kind of atavistic tribal godknowswhat was at work that time, but that balcony scene was deeper even than that. TIL that no matter how much I wish somebody was dead, I don't really when it comes down to it want the person to actually die, with all the attendant pain and fear and struggle.

This, on the other hand:

Ha ha, even though everything is a nightmare and we live in hellworld I am still enjoying envisioning the panic and hair-tearing among Republican handlers and moneymen right now. Suffer, you fuckers.

Do I love thinking about this a whole lot? Yeeeeesssssssss...
posted by Don Pepino at 3:04 PM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

Yeah but you know none of that is going to happen, right? I mean, he won't be impeached, he won't be indicted, he won't go to jail. None of that will ever, ever happen. He might even get re-elected (fraudulently or not).

Neither of us can predict the future. The only thing I know now is that I am done with hopelessness and I will fight everyday for the rest of my life for a better country, society, and world. I hope you and others will join me.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 3:04 PM on October 6, 2020 [47 favorites]

COVID-19 at the White House tracker now 303 contacts, 32 identified positive.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:06 PM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

At least 1 of Trump's military aides tasked with carrying the nuclear 'football' reportedly has coronavirus
posted by chavenet at 3:07 PM on October 6, 2020 [14 favorites]

Good summary of the timeline at Talking Points Memo.
posted by sjswitzer at 3:13 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

We now know that the Trump delegation arrived at the debate venue too late for the agreed upon Covid tests to be administered to Trump and party.

Can someone please point me at the source for this statement please. I have seen various forms of this claim through the thread. Specifically, is the claim that Trump violated an agreed venue testing rule and Biden complied? The closest I've come to seeing this claim sourced was iceberg273's "Starts at about 2:00 in the video embedded in this tweet." That video refers to both the candidates ("they") as tested by "the campaigns", implying that Trump and Biden campaigns both met the same standard with respect to the candidates themselves. The document that the anchor was reading from there is also summarized here:

The Cleveland Clinic supervised the event. In a statement issued Friday, it said it had requirements to keep a safe environment that aligned with CDC guidelines -- including social distancing, hand sanitizing, temperature checks, and masking. “Most importantly, everyone permitted inside the debate all tested negative for COVID-19 prior to entry. Individuals traveling with both candidates, including the candidates themselves, had been tested and tested negative by their respective campaigns.”

The press release itself is here.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 3:14 PM on October 6, 2020

@kaitlancollins, CNN: A third White House press staffer has tested positive for coronavirus, meaning three of McEnany's deputies are now working from home. The West Wing press areas are essentially being run by a skeleton crew because of the recent outbreak.

Mary Louise Kelly, NPR (responding to the above): As this news broke, I was speaking live with deputy press sec Brian Morganstern from the White House.

He confirmed masks are still not required in the WH, and that they don't have a mask rule because "everyone needs to take personal responsibility."
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:19 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

Individuals traveling with both candidates, including the candidates themselves, had been tested and tested negative by their respective campaigns.”

That press release says that the campaign claims he was tested and tested negative. It's a statement that relies on believing the Trump campaign to honest.

Newsweek: Chris Wallace Says Donald Trump Wasn't Tested for COVID Pre-Debate Because He Arrived Late
posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:22 PM on October 6, 2020 [15 favorites]

could you articulate in detail exactly what you're seeing that indicates he is very very sick with Covid

In the pre-hospital Twitter video, he was unable to speak in full sentences without pausing for breath. He's leaning forward on the desk in a way that recalls the tripod position, although that might just be "trying to get as close as possible to the camera" -- but it looks different from the few prior video addresses I've seen. He's also markedly paler than usual, although again, that might be because of lack of orange spray tan rather than actual pallor/cyanosis.

In the "just been released from WR" videos, he repeatedly tilts his head back and uses his neck muscles to try and breathe. As some of the people with asthma or other breathing difficulties can attest, that sort of accessory muscle use is bad -- it means your diaphragm is getting tired and you're relying on other muscles to try and gasp any little bit of air.

People can certainly pull through even after all that, but I've had patients (pre-covid) go from tripod -> accessory muscles -> bipap -> intubated in a matter of hours. Several of the nurses in this thread have said similar things, and they are at the bedside a lot more than docs. Honestly, if that if I got called to the ED for someone like this, I'd be like "why the heck are you calling a neurologist??? Is pulmonary/critical care on vacation or something?"

how his other presumed comorbidities (perhaps tia's, perhaps dementia) and his possible sociopathy plays into this.

In a hospital setting (because that's the only setting where a patient in respiratory distress should be), I'd probably be calling in my psychiatry buddies so for a capacity evaluation. That's the layman's version of invoking the 25th Amendment.
posted by basalganglia at 3:31 PM on October 6, 2020 [35 favorites]

"We now know that the Trump delegation arrived at the debate venue too late for the agreed upon Covid tests to be administered to Trump and party."

Can someone please point me at the source for this statement please.

Chris Wallace: Trump arrived too late to be tested in Ohio before debate, relied on 'honor system'
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:41 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

I want to see him suffer.

He MUST suffer. If comes through this like Bolsonaro, he will act like Bolsonaro. And another 400,000 Americans will die.
posted by ocschwar at 3:45 PM on October 6, 2020 [12 favorites]

ho did. Does Trump's erratic behavior make more sense under the assumption that he didn't care at all about winning, and that his primary objective was to infect Joe Biden with the virus?

That would explain the interruptions and yammering.
posted by ocschwar at 3:46 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

The one thing I'm sure of is now that Trump knows how good steroids make him feel, he's going to want to be on them all the time.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:55 PM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

That would explain the interruptions and yammering.

According to a few places I've seen online, that was Chris Christie's recommendation for wrong-footing Biden, as according to him (I haven't checked the veracity of this claim) frequent interruptions can exacerbate a person's stutter. Biden has worked to overcome a stutter throughout his life.
posted by tclark at 3:55 PM on October 6, 2020 [16 favorites]

From the Guardian: Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani coughs his way through anti-mask interview

[T]he fact the interview took place just two hours after his test (and without the results yet in) did not stop Giuliani gloating that he had not yet contracted Covid-19 and dishing out advice to Fox’s viewership.

“Just to play devil’s advocate, [Biden] would probably say, ‘I haven’t gotten Covid and the president did, and he’s not a big fan of wearing masks’,” pointed out MacCallum, before being interjected by Giuliani.

“And I haven’t either, and I don’t wear masks as much as probably I should … What they claim is science is nonsense,” said Giuliani.

Moments later, Giuliani again began coughing and hacking, prompting MacCallum to close with well wishes.

It's like they're actively trying to spread it as much as possible.
posted by Cheerwell Maker at 3:56 PM on October 6, 2020 [15 favorites]

Stephen Miller has tested positive for COVID19.
posted by orange swan at 3:56 PM on October 6, 2020 [99 favorites]

Stephen Miller has it.
posted by Sublimity at 3:57 PM on October 6, 2020 [20 favorites]

His continued existence is less vital to the country’s stability, and so I am less concerned.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:58 PM on October 6, 2020 [7 favorites]

Does Trump's erratic behavior make more sense under the assumption that he didn't care at all about winning, and that his primary objective was to infect Joe Biden with the virus?

Can we not.
posted by tzikeh at 3:59 PM on October 6, 2020 [29 favorites]

The federal government needs to stop funding these viral sanctuary staffers
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 4:00 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

Great, now we know for sure Covid can retransmit through the undead. That never ends well.
posted by bcd at 4:01 PM on October 6, 2020 [21 favorites]

Biden has worked to overcome a stutter throughout his life.

Justin Trudeau has a stammer. I'm imagining that the two of them will talk about that and bond over it when they meet as heads of state. Assuming that they haven't already, because Biden was V.P. when Trudeau was first elected in 2015, and of course they've already met. But I find it kind of a sweet thought anyway.
posted by orange swan at 4:03 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Not Stephen Miller!
posted by glaucon at 4:05 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

He's going to fly like an eagle. . .
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 4:07 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

Wow, y’all. I just saw a photo of Stephen Miller and he looked like absolute shit.

I wonder what he looks like now that he’s contracted Covid?
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:09 PM on October 6, 2020 [85 favorites]

Adm. Charles W. Ray, the vice commandant of the Coast Guard who tested positive for the coronavirus yesterday, attended the White House's Sept. 27 ceremony in the East Room.
"[H]eld on Gold Star Mother's and Family’s Day with dozens of people in attendance, [the event] recognized the families of 20 deceased service members."

This was on Sunday, after the two Saturday 9/26 events (Prayer March on the Mall, Barrett Rose Garden nomination ceremony); "President Trump, Vice President Pence, Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper and some of the military’s top generals and admirals were also at the event, which was held in the East Room. Most attendees did not wear masks or maintain social distancing, White House photographs of the event show. [...] Other senior defense officials who attended the White House event include Army Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; Gen. Charles Q. Brown, the chief of staff of the Air Force; Gen. David H. Berger, the commandant of the Marine Corps; Gen. James McConville, chief of staff of the Army; and Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy." (WaPo, Oct. 6)

Apparently, the White House did not contact the Gold Star families; post Trump COVID-19 disclosure, a parent "reached out to the White House afterward and received an email that confirmed that everyone at the military event had tested negative for the coronavirus on Sunday. It also stated that Trump had “several negative tests” between Sunday evening and his positive test on Thursday," according to one attendee.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:10 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

You're not likely to go from exposure to being contagious in 24 hours.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 4:12 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

I know that this is the Trump-has-coronavirus thread, but since election stealing has come up again, I wanted to make three points as briefly as I can.

1) Stopping the count on election night isn't just a matter of Trump saying "Stop the count." It would require either a court order, which would mean he'd need to produce some sort of evidence in front of a judge (hard to do while the count is ongoing); or action by a state's main election official, which necessarily would not be in that official's own interest. That person would essentially be saying "The election, which I am in charge of administering, is so broken that the results are not reliable," and that's not a good look for anyone hoping to stay in office (or run for a higher one).

2) Stopping the count or trying to throw out state-level results also would affect all the other races on the ballot and put them into doubt. Would Republican state representatives be willing to invalidate their own elections to help Trump? Again, you'd think at least some would have misgivings about acting against their own interests.

3) Lastly, as I understand it, the "throw out the results of the vote and substitute another set of electors" scenario, while technically possible, would require a change in each state's law, since that's what describes the method that states use to choose electors. That means it won't work in any state with a Democratic governor who can veto a new law (most importantly, WI, MI and PA).

None of this is to say that Trump and the Republicans won't be trying all sorts of fuckery, since they obviously will. But at least some of these "one weird trick to steal the election" ideas are far-fetched, at best.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 4:13 PM on October 6, 2020 [29 favorites]

Stephen Miller has tested positive for COVID19.

I’m sure I speak for all of us in saying our thoughts and prayers are with COVID tonight, in light of this terrible news.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:14 PM on October 6, 2020 [112 favorites]

Yes I see that multiple sources state that Trump was not tested by the venue for coronavirus. However, that's not what I'm trying to find out. What I am trying to establish is: Was that in violation of the debate's ground rules (we may not know) and was it different than what the Biden campaign did (Wallace indicated that both campaigns reported test results of their candidates)? (and for the purposes of this question, I am also not asking whether any of these test results were lied about, and I'm not asking about any other attendee or entourage member. I'm trying to make this a narrow and possibly answerable question)
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 4:15 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

He could be thinking on the assumption that if Biden gets elected, Mitch will block any House relief efforts. Which works, if Dems don't get the Senate. Although, that may be ascribing too much strategery to trump.

It's holding the country hostage. If they don't vote for Trump the economy can fucking burn for all he cares.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:50 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

Also on election security, since Trump and the GOP are laser-focused on the SCOTUS seat, the Democratic party needs to start playing defense for SCOTUS election involvement in the event it goes there. Build public pressure demanding that Supreme Court justices appointed by a sitting president recuse themselves from any cases concerning the reelection of that same president due to conflict of interest. Esp. for the pending nominee, but I say push for all 3 to recuse.
posted by p3t3 at 4:52 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

My mom, a deeply religious Catholic who studies Jesuit theology and always corrects me if I say anything uncharitable, on the news that Stephen Miller has it: “Oh thank God.”
posted by HotToddy at 4:52 PM on October 6, 2020 [92 favorites]

that accessory muscle breathing sure looks like respiratory distress, but isn't that also kinda how it looks when you're trying to snort the insufflated adderall out of the back of your nose?
posted by 20 year lurk at 4:55 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

None of this is to say that Trump and the Republicans won't be trying all sorts of fuckery, since they obviously will. But at least some of these "one weird trick to steal the election" ideas are far-fetched, at best.

My personal fear is that if Florida is the tipping point on election night we could see a hastily convened session of the legislature ready to think they're handing Trump the presidency. At that point all bets are off. Who knows what might happen with a blue shift. They could be putting themselves out on a limb only to get it sawn off by the rest of the country. At that point who knows what might happen politically to future elections.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:56 PM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

Even if scientific opinion is 99/1 that can still be characterized as "disagreement". And you can bring in one or two or three from the 1%, have them testify, and it carries just as much weight in a hearing or in the media as the other side, who brought in 3 people from the 99%.

I'm sure there are plenty of good reasons this wouldn't work, but I'd love to see a Dem committee chair bring in, say, 100 experts on climate change etc and dare the ranking member to pick the three to testify.
posted by HumuloneRanger at 4:57 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

I do, too, which is why I want him to see the loss and experience it as a crushing tsunami, all the more since the Trump campaign is talking to Republican state legislatures in Arizona, Florida, Michigan, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin to instead put forth electors for Trump in the event he loses those states.

These states are among Swing Left's "Super States", in which they have identified targets in each state to help protect democratic governors' vetoes and/or flip seats and houses. Worth checking out and if you have the means, throwing some cash their way.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:08 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

Stephen Miller has tested positive for COVID19.

Fair fight: lethal virus vs. him.
posted by PhineasGage at 5:13 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Comment seen on fb: "I see COVID-19 has officially made the inter-species leap from human to whatever kind of ghoul Stephen Miller is."
posted by bz at 5:14 PM on October 6, 2020 [20 favorites]

Stephen Miller has tested positive for COVID19.

It’s really a fascinating scientific discovery. Top scientists can finally isolate the non-respiratory effects of this illness on a subject fully enencumbered by a coronary system and use that vital knowledge to advance our understanding of covid as a whole. Remarkable.
posted by mochapickle at 5:21 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

The tweets regarding Stephen Miller's testing positive for COVID 19 are savage. As they should be. I mean, the guy's *grandmother* died of COVID19 and he denied it, despite the fact that her son and her birth certificate both attested that she had.
posted by orange swan at 5:23 PM on October 6, 2020 [14 favorites]

@JYSexton: Isn't it odd how all the people calling immigrants criminals and disease carriers ended up being criminals and carrying disease.
posted by gwint at 5:30 PM on October 6, 2020 [60 favorites]

I've seen several vampire jokes re: Miller as COVID-19 originated in bats.

A tweet that made me laugh out loud (and boy I needed it)

BREAKING: COVID was the name of Trump’s childhood sled
posted by tzikeh at 5:33 PM on October 6, 2020 [20 favorites]

@goldengateblond: an advent calendar but each window is a new republican with the virus
posted by orange swan at 5:33 PM on October 6, 2020 [55 favorites]

The commission organizing general election debates will allow Mike Pence to participate without plexiglass barriers around him at Wednesday's contest after the vice president's team objected to their planned use

Come on, Harris. Show us you have the courage to stand up to these Republican asshole bullies. They have demonstrated bad faith, flouting the rules at the last debate and lying about coronavirus testing. Require the barrier or refuse to debate. They are losing and desperately need the debates and you don't. Be willing to just walk away.
posted by JackFlash at 5:38 PM on October 6, 2020 [19 favorites]

AP's Jonathan Lemire: HAGERSTOWN, Md. (AP) — Biden says 'we shouldn't have debate' next week if Trump still has coronavirus.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 5:41 PM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

The commission organizing general election debates will allow Mike Pence to participate without plexiglass barriers around him at Wednesday's contest after the vice president's team objected to their planned use

Wait, what?

Commission installs plexiglass barriers for both candidates in VP debate, apparently overruling Pence’s objections

posted by saturday_morning at 5:42 PM on October 6, 2020 [36 favorites]

the antecedent of that pronoun: (Wallace indicated that both campaigns reported test results of their candidates)? (and for the purposes of this question, I am also not asking whether any of these test results were lied about, and I'm not asking about any other attendee or entourage member. I'm trying to make this a narrow and possibly answerable question)

I don't know that this is exactly what you're asking, but the latest from White House Deputy Communications Director Brian Morgenstern:

"@ErinBurnett asks Brian Morgenstern, WH Dep Comms Dir if he can definitively say Trump tested negatively the day of the debate. Morgenstern: "I don't have that." Asked if he even knows when Trump's last negative COVID test was, WH spox Morgenstern tells @CNN "I personally do not."

Source: Sarah Boxer, CNN
posted by tzikeh at 5:42 PM on October 6, 2020 [7 favorites]

the antecedent of that pronoun

Yes I see that multiple sources state that Trump was not tested by the venue for coronavirus. However, that's not what I'm trying to find out. What I am trying to establish is: Was that in violation of the debate's ground rules (we may not know) and was it different than what the Biden campaign did (Wallace indicated that both campaigns reported test results of their candidates)? (and for the purposes of this question, I am also not asking whether any of these test results were lied about, and I'm not asking about any other attendee or entourage member. I'm trying to make this a narrow and possibly answerable question)

Short answer is it seems hard to say.

First, from Cleveland Clinic:

Most importantly, everyone permitted inside the debate hall tested negative for COVID-19 prior to entry. Individuals traveling with both candidates, including the candidates themselves, had been tested and tested negative by their respective campaigns.

(emphasis mine).

And, from Wallace, via Newsweek:

Wallace told Fox News anchor Bill Hemmer there was an "honor system" between the two campaigns when it came to being tested for the virus prior to the debate. According to Wallace, Trump and his entourage "couldn't be tested by the clinic" because they arrived too late.

"So for them to get tested, there wouldn't have been enough time to have the test and have the debate at 9:00 that night," Wallace continued. "They didn't show up until 3:00, 4:00, 5:00 in the afternoon. Yeah, there was an honor system when it came to the people that came into the hall from the two campaigns."

(emphasis mine, again.)

It sounds like it was acceptable or allowed for the campaigns to self-vouch. I can't possibly understand that logic, given the health risks of both candidates that's... stunning.

As to 3 p.m. being too late to get tested and receive a result...

1. I know the "rapid tests" that were/are being used by the NBA and such have some huge problems with false +/- results. If you get a positive in 15 minutes, though, isn't that enough to sit out the debate?

2. I had a CoVid test and was definitely showing the majority of the symptoms. Results returned in 5 hours, and that was with waiting an hour for a courier to move them from a clinic to a lab. I know this is not normal to receive results so fast. I work for a hospital and enter patient care areas all the time.

BUT, if the hospital can turn it around in 5 hours for little ol' me who just works on the cheap-o computers, why couldn't Cleveland Clinic do it for a Presidential debate?

*******************
tl;dr: Life or death is no time for an honor system. To quote Reagan (just to show the hypocrisy), "Trust, but verify."

Those who removed masks against the agreed upon rules should have been immediately removed.

And, why oh why do we keep letting the "moderator" off the hook here? Why can't he say, "We can't start the debate, since we are still waiting for Trump, et al. test results"? Why can't he say, "Debate is delayed until Trump family wears their masks, as was agreed upon"?

The testing off site sounds like it was not in violation, but not wearing masks sure was. (Wallace is 72 himself, FWIW).
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:43 PM on October 6, 2020 [28 favorites]

Wait, what?

Dueling headlines, CNN vs Washington Post, both updated around 8 PM. Guess we will have to wait to see with our own eyes. Could be barriers for both candidates or only for one candidate.
posted by JackFlash at 5:50 PM on October 6, 2020

What a time for Johnny Nash to die.
"I Can See Clearly Now" has been my song of hope for almost fifty years.
posted by FencingGal at 5:53 PM on October 6, 2020 [14 favorites]

Dan Rather:
Do you still call it a "government" if they don't even pretend to govern?
posted by valkane at 5:56 PM on October 6, 2020 [13 favorites]

thank you tzikeh and a non mouse, a cow herd.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 5:57 PM on October 6, 2020

Just wanna say that the retorts re: Stephen Miller are why I love Mefi.
also, he's a ghoul.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:59 PM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

Biden says 'we shouldn't have debate' next week if Trump still has coronavirus.
Weird that this even has to be said - but here we are.
posted by piyushnz at 6:00 PM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

Trump turning down the Pelosi stimulus deal - he just wants to see the rest of the country suffer because he's losing. (see for reference WWII, Hitler, sending 14 year old boys to fight a lost cause cuz the German people deserved to die).
posted by bluesky43 at 6:07 PM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

@bluesky43 yeah but Hitler was on a ton of drugs when he made those irrational decisions
posted by glaucon at 6:10 PM on October 6, 2020 [30 favorites]

Good thing y'all in the clear then!
posted by Jilder at 6:11 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

Oh! another parallel I missed!!!!
posted by bluesky43 at 6:12 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Apropos of the Stephen Miller news, and in case your rage against this administration was waning, comes this NYT story: ‘We Need to Take Away Children,’ No Matter How Young, Justice Dept. Officials Said

The five U.S. attorneys along the border with Mexico, including three appointed by President Trump, recoiled in May 2018 against an order to prosecute all illegal immigrants even if it meant separating children from their parents. They told top Justice Department officials they were “deeply concerned” about the children’s welfare.

But the attorney general at the time, Jeff Sessions, made it clear what Mr. Trump wanted on a conference call later that afternoon, according to a two-year inquiry by the Justice Department’s inspector general into Mr. Trump’s “zero tolerance” family separation policy.

“We need to take away children,” Mr. Sessions told the prosecutors, according to participants’ notes. One added in shorthand: “If you care about kids, don’t bring them in. Won’t give amnesty to people with kids.”

Rod J. Rosenstein, then the deputy attorney general, went even further in a second call about a week later, telling the five prosecutors that it did not matter how young the children were. He said that government lawyers should not have refused to prosecute two cases simply because the children were barely more than infants.

posted by gwint at 6:17 PM on October 6, 2020 [27 favorites]

Trump turning down the Pelosi stimulus deal

Trump has been very clear about why he is turning down a deal. He has explicitly said that he doesn't want to "bail out poorly run, high crime, Democrat states" ignoring the fact that it is poor southern Republican states like Alabama and Mississippi that are hurting the worst.

This is typical Trump behavior where everything is transactional. You have to be nice to him or he will hurt you (the basis of the impeachment over Ukraine aid).

This is also the typical response of Trump supporters. They would rather cut the nose off their own face that see a dollar go to a person of color. (For example, poor white Kentuckians who are on Medicaid voting to abolish Medicaid.)
posted by JackFlash at 6:22 PM on October 6, 2020 [21 favorites]

Ladies and gentlemen... prepare for your vomit to begin vomiting.

ABC NEWS: 'I had to do it': Trump suggests he got virus as act of political courage
posted by delfin at 6:27 PM on October 6, 2020 [18 favorites]

Maybe the strongest indicator that Trump is losing the election is when both Facebook and Twitter finally have the nerve to take action against some of his posts.
posted by PhineasGage at 6:30 PM on October 6, 2020 [16 favorites]

the Trump campaign is talking to Republican state legislatures in Arizona, Florida, Michigan, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin to instead put forth electors for Trump in the event he loses those states

Michigan, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin all have Democratic governors.

Red State Legislatures Cannot Cancel The Upcoming Presidential Election

Those governors can thwart this effort simply by enforcing their existing laws. That is, as Professor Ned Foley explains in a law review article going through a hypothetical contested 2020 election, there is a strong argument that the popular vote “method of appointing electors cannot be undone except by a new state statute enacted using the same ordinary methods of legislation.”

No new statutes would be passed. If there is a coordinated effort by Republican legislators to abolish Presidential elections, Democratic governors will stand up for it and will refuse to sign any bill abolishing an election. That should end the attempt to abolish elections in its tracks.
...
Take Pennsylvania as one example, since it has 20 electoral votes, a Republican legislature, and a Democratic governor. Pennsylvania law says that at the “general election” every four years, “there shall be elected by the qualified electors of the Commonwealth, persons to be known as electors of President and Vice-President of the United States.” I see no argument under Pennsylvania’s Constitution that the state legislature could simply repeal that law without the signature of the Governor (or the override of his veto, which would take a 2/3 majority that Republicans do not have). In other words, under state law, there has to be an election, and electors must be elected with a popular vote. The rules for appointing presidential electors are similar in every other state. State laws providing for elections cannot simply be abolished because the legislature wishes to appoint electors differently.

Ceterum autem censeo Trump delenda est
posted by kirkaracha at 6:35 PM on October 6, 2020 [16 favorites]

"will stand up for it" probably means "will stand up to it" or "will not stand for it" in context.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:41 PM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

A headline from last night: Supreme Court sides with Republicans, reinstates witness requirement in South Carolina (politico, Oct. 6, 2020) A lower court had struck down the witness requirement for mail ballots, citing Covid-19. [...] It is one of the first election-related cases that the Supreme Court has ruled on since the primaries and could suggest the justices will rein in lower courts that seek to alter the rules of an election, even if to expand access to voting as a result of the coronavirus pandemic.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:51 PM on October 6, 2020 [8 favorites]

ABC NEWS: 'I had to do it': Trump suggests he got virus as act of political courage

The mental gymnastics he performs to defend his actions at every turn are so strange. I guess that's what happens when you've decided that you will never admit you made a mistake or were wrong about something. There's not even a hint of regret at having exposed so many unwitting others to the virus, some of whom are now in the hospital and might very well die.
posted by wondermouse at 6:53 PM on October 6, 2020 [6 favorites]

"South Carolina is too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum." -- James L. Petigru
posted by kirkaracha at 6:54 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

"You want money? Re-elect me."

Well, except that there will also be money if the other guy is elected. More, in fact.

The threat he seems to be making is that if you re-elect him, he'll pass a stimulus Nov 4. If you vote for Biden, you have to suffer for three more months until Biden takes office.
posted by straight at 6:55 PM on October 6, 2020 [13 favorites]

When did you decide to willingly contract COVID-19 and did you discuss this with your family, the US Secret Service, or the hundreds of support staff working around you every day?
posted by cmfletcher at 6:58 PM on October 6, 2020 [26 favorites]

If Trump loses, what are the chances of a veto-proof compromise bill getting through both houses before January? Not a rhetorical question; I have no idea and am actually curious.
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 6:58 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

But the electoral college already elected him 4 years ago and he had bragged that he doesn’t keep any promise regarding money.
posted by bilabial at 6:58 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Are we sure the President is doing okay with these medications, cognitively speaking? Maybe there's some kind of test he can take to make sure.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:03 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Maybe he can just _recognize_ a clock this time, instead of drawing one.
posted by delfin at 7:09 PM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

This is amazing. General Michael Hayden, former director of the CIA, former director of the NSA, 40 years career military is voting Biden (link to a video on Twitter from Republican Voters Against Trump):

"President Trump doesn't care about facts. President Trump doesn't care about the truth.... The FBI says white nationalism is a real problem, and the FBI wants to do something about it, but the president doesn't want to talk about that. He doesn't keep the country safe. It's unbelievable."

posted by tzikeh at 7:12 PM on October 6, 2020 [62 favorites]

Trump is now incoherently tweeting about giving money away. You know if someone told me in 1999 that in twenty years the president would be hopped up on drugs giving away money I'd be all smiles, passing a joint and saying "THE FUTURE!"
posted by geoff. at 7:44 PM on October 6, 2020 [19 favorites]

Not to be dense — but isn’t this thread focused on Trump & co’s COVID diagnoses and not general election talk? Isn't there another ongoing thread for that? (I’ve been taking a pretty serious break from Metafilter so I am asking this honestly!)

A really great point, but the two are dovetailing in a way that blurs the line now more than before. Previously, it was easy to just focus on his health and the related immediate fallout as far as the effect in the White House, how sick was he, etc...

But since then, there have been several big developments that tie both together:
-Trump fails to get a sympathy bounce from covid, which was expected / discussed
-He is making decisions that are expected to hurt him in polling even more, possibly as a result of poor decision making from his treatment
-His White House and campaign is paralyzed from the clear fault and blame he is responsible for due to the lack of any sort of COVID safety measures undertaken or encouraged by Trump himself

These actions / situations tie directly into the campaign because once again he’s politicizing him even having the virus as some sort of victory while it’s widely being reflected with Republicans showing they believe he didn’t take enough precautions

But your point stands, it’s just seemingly harder and harder to parse as his covid status does impact the election in real time every day
posted by glaucon at 7:48 PM on October 6, 2020 [17 favorites]

geoff., he also said he’s declassifying all the Russia hoax evidence with no redactions so that’ll be interesting.
posted by artychoke at 7:51 PM on October 6, 2020 [10 favorites]

Is he? Is any of this going to happen in the morning? Is he going to happen in the morning?
posted by Countess Elena at 7:54 PM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

COVID-19 at the White House tracker's now at 309 contacts, 34 identified positive; Trump & Christie are the known hospital admissions. As of two hours ago: Former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie remains hospitalized at Morristown Medical Center, where he was admitted Saturday after testing positive COVID-19. Newspaper columnist Tom Moran spoke with Christie on the phone yesterday, writing Christie sounded “raspy but didn’t cough once” during their 10-minute phone call, and that Christie would not discuss his condition.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:58 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

Yeah, unfortunately COVID-19 is deeply politicized at this point (Jesus fuck remember in the Before Times when viruses were apolitical), and his illness has therefore pretty much infected (sorry) all of the election, general politics, etc.
posted by tzikeh at 7:59 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

Wray, Terwilliger, Dawson, and Demers are pulling a press conference tomorrow morning about a "matter of national security".

I feel like shit is going to hit the fan tomorrow.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:07 PM on October 6, 2020 [17 favorites]

Trump’s sick-tweeting is all about Hillary and Obama and the 2016 election. Dude really wants to relive his past victory and forget about his current disasters.
posted by mbrubeck at 8:13 PM on October 6, 2020 [12 favorites]

I feel like shit is going to hit the fan tomorrow.

You know what would be a great time to drop something which the administration would strenuously disapprove of, but would be in the national interest nonetheless?

While the President is out of his god-damned mind on steroids, experimental drug cocktails and fear and tweeting anti-FBI and anti-CIA stuff as a tell, while Bill Barr is in self-quarantine, and while most of the usual suspects in Trump's inner circle are all also laid up with the 'rona.

Just saying.

(It will be something innocuous because I haven't lived a good enough life for that kind of reward.)
posted by delfin at 8:23 PM on October 6, 2020 [15 favorites]

"You want money? Re-elect me."

Trump's unilateral withdrawal from talks hurts red states much much more than blue states. I hate Trump, but by objective measures, is his medication making his mental faculties even more impaired than usual? There's a long time between now and January to leave aid programs unfunded, and so there seems a real argument for invoking the 25th Amendment — by force, if need be? — to keep the country from devolving into further chaos.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:25 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Wray, Terwilliger, Dawson, and Demers are pulling a press conference tomorrow morning about a "matter of national security".

this is exciting but it's probably like when NASA schedules an Extremely Important Announcement and you think it's aliens but it's not, it's never aliens
posted by Countess Elena at 8:28 PM on October 6, 2020 [81 favorites]

I mean we did get "Maybe It Is Aliens, I Dunno, You Explain This All This Phosphine, Smartypants" this year, so who knows! It could be something fun!
posted by Lonnrot at 8:32 PM on October 6, 2020 [14 favorites]

Wray, Terwilliger, Dawson, and Demers are pulling a press conference tomorrow morning about a "matter of national security".

They wouldn't pre-announce it if it were bad for the administration. It's probably the release of documents, per Trump's announcement, or an October surprise indictment of an administration enemy.
posted by jedicus at 8:35 PM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

Under the Matter of National Security announcement was an FBI tweet containing a video where leaders of all sorts of agencies attempt to console Americans that it is safe and reasonable to vote. It somehow crosses a line for me that they think they need to do this. But I am glad that they made that call.
posted by brambleboy at 8:36 PM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

Certain Twitter folks think it might be this:

The U.S. Justice Department is expected to announce charges this week against two British nationals suspected of being part of a notorious Islamic State cell accused of torturing and beheading Western hostages, according to a law enforcement official.
posted by mykescipark at 8:36 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

>> "You want money? Re-elect me."

> Trump's unilateral withdrawal from talks hurts red states much much more than blue states.

Undoubtedly. But I must refer you to my esteemed colleague* saturday_morning's observation:

> It's almost like he is a dumbass
posted by Rat Spatula at 8:38 PM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

Internet's wondering if tomorrow's 11 a.m. DOJ press conference (in Your Childhood Pet Rock's link) is tied to the "Facebook banning QAnon accounts" story (Atom Eyes linked initial related tweet above). CNN: Three years later, Facebook says it will ban QAnon; Facebook said Tuesday it will ban any pages, groups, and Instagram accounts representing the conspiracy theory QAnon from its platform. The move comes three years after the far-right conspiracy theory began. During those years QAnon adherents have embraced a number of different and often contradictory theories, but the basic false beliefs underlying QAnon are claims about a cabal of politicians and A-list celebrities engaging in child sex abuse, and a "deep state" effort to undermine President Trump. Last year an FBI office warned that Q adherents are a domestic terrorism threat.

Supposedly it's not related to today's story, DOJ To Charge 2 British ISIS Militants Accused Of Role In Killing U.S. Hostages; I hope it's not a swipe at Biden (by way of son Hunter) of some kind.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:39 PM on October 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

Jesus can't we go five whole minutes without another anxiety-spike-inducing announcement

Has there been a full five-minute stretch in 2020 during which nothing much happened
posted by tzikeh at 8:43 PM on October 6, 2020 [15 favorites]

this is exciting but it's probably like when NASA schedules an Extremely Important Announcement and you think it's aliens but it's not, it's never aliens

If there were aliens (we knew about) IMPOTUS would've tweeted about it the second he found out.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:44 PM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

Yeah my bet is it's about charges for the captured ISIS militants, but it's 2020, y'know?
posted by tclark at 8:48 PM on October 6, 2020

8yo daughter: "I think making other people happy makes me happy."
Me: "That's called empathy. It's something you have and Donald Trump doesn't have."
8yo daughter: "Yeah. Instead, he has COVID."
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:48 PM on October 6, 2020 [113 favorites]

The Lincoln Project's latest gem, to the music from "Evita" : "Don't Cry for Me White House Staffers."
posted by PhineasGage at 8:48 PM on October 6, 2020 [13 favorites]

Who sings on that?
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 8:51 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

>there seems a real argument for invoking the 25th Amendment

Congress can pass laws without his signature, even over his veto.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:59 PM on October 6, 2020 [5 favorites]

We don't have a Congress. We haven't had a functional Congress in years. What used to be Congress is now effectively a conservative judiciary court packing service. They occasionally deign to review other matters as long as they stand to benefit the right people, but right now they have exactly one mandate through the rest of Trump's term.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 9:10 PM on October 6, 2020 [35 favorites]

Re: Don't Cry for Me -- As [neurosurgeon at Yale University Medical School, Daniel] Nijensohn writes: “[Eva Peron's] last public speech, delivered on May 1, 1952, Labour Day in Argentina, was a call against her enemies. She also dictated a 79-page document, ‘My Message', showing evidence of her belligerence and violent state of mind. She spoke about the ‘enemies of the people’ who were ‘insensitive and repugnant,’ and ‘as cold as toads and snakes’. She exalted the ‘holy fire of fanaticism’. She was ‘against those imbeciles’ who called for prudence. She ordered the people of Argentina to ‘fight the oligarchy’.” These weren’t just hollow threats. From her sick bed – and without her husband’s knowledge – she allegedly ordered 5,000 automatic pistols and 1,500 machine guns, with the aim of arming workers of the trade unions to form workers’ militias. (The gruesome, untold story of Eva Peron’s lobotomy, BBC, July 9, 2015) [...] In the end, the operation did succeed in silencing Evita – if only by accelerating her decline. After the lobotomy, she simply stopped eating. She died on 26 July 1952.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:33 PM on October 6, 2020 [11 favorites]

Who sings on that?

Rumor is that it might be Laura Benanti. She also does a fantastically brutal Melania impression.
posted by mochapickle at 9:50 PM on October 6, 2020

(The gruesome, untold story of Eva Peron’s lobotomy, BBC, July 9, 2015) [...] In the end, the operation did succeed in silencing Evita – if only by accelerating her decline. After the lobotomy, she simply stopped eating. She died on 26 July 1952.

I DON'T REMEMBER THE LOBOTOMY NUMBER
posted by tzikeh at 9:53 PM on October 6, 2020 [12 favorites]

I DON'T REMEMBER THE LOBOTOMY NUMBER

Can't emote for you Argentina
posted by nubs at 10:02 PM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

It was in Repo Man
posted by Rash at 10:03 PM on October 6, 2020 [4 favorites]

Jesus can't we go five whole minutes without another anxiety-spike-inducing announcement

So, because I'm essentially too depressed even to lift my head up for the most part, Metafilter is the only thing I read, ever. And I only read it at the end of the day, when nothing that happened in the morning or even the afternoon remotely matters anymore. It's like the world's worst recap blog. But it means I haven't known about any anxiety-spike-inducing announcements in months and months. I don't even remember what that weapons-grade dipshit sounds like.

Becoming an inert lump, taking in the barest amount of input, scarcely distinguishable from a large fungus: 10/10, will spend the rest of my life this way.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:46 PM on October 6, 2020 [62 favorites]

You know, inert lumps and large fungi are loved too. Wishing you the best.
posted by brambleboy at 10:56 PM on October 6, 2020 [47 favorites]

I don't know about you guys but Trump has me convinced this time. I think he's going to defeat Hilary Clinton in the 2020 election.
posted by mmoncur at 10:59 PM on October 6, 2020 [32 favorites]

Jesus can't we go five whole minutes without another anxiety-spike-inducing announcement

Remember when we all thought that 2017 was a dumpster fire?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:06 PM on October 6, 2020 [14 favorites]

“It is a slaughter”: Infectious disease icon asks CDC director to expose White House, orchestrate his own firing (USA Today)

“You could upfront, acknowledge the tragedy of responding poorly, apologize for what has happened and your role in acquiescing,” Foege wrote to Redfield. He added that simply resigning without coming clean would be insufficient. “Don’t shy away from the fact this has been an unacceptable toll on our country. It is a slaughter and not just a political dispute.”

posted by tzikeh at 11:09 PM on October 6, 2020 [42 favorites]

Who’s in disarray now, McConnell?
posted by skyscraper at 11:09 PM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

Holy shit, gentle giant Bill Foege, the slayer of smallpox, is wading in?!
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:43 PM on October 6, 2020 [9 favorites]

... after Trump's "declassification/Russian hoax" tweet storm today, Representative Ted Lieu (D-CA) tweeted to the Justice Department “Per the President’s orders, can you please provide the [House Judiciary] Committee the full unredacted Mueller Report immediately? Thank you.” -- Heather Cox Richardson's Letters from an American. Lieu, via Threadreader.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:00 AM on October 7, 2020 [25 favorites]

In apple-doesn’t-fall-far-from-the-Trump-tree news, the day after
-the Anchorage paper reported on Republicans’ irresponsible fundraisers in the context of Trump’s diagnosis and
-we simultaneously hit a one-day statewide high of new COVID case

and a mere one hour after

-our Trump-lite governor posted a video asking us all to make personal sacrifices to defeat COVID

he was caught a maskless cocktail party fundraiser by a terrible right wing blogger streaming her entrance into said party in the first (inadvertent) true breaking news event of her life. She deleted it almost immediately, but it was too late.

I haven’t touched anyone who doesn’t live in my house since March. I hate these guys so much.
posted by charmedimsure at 12:02 AM on October 7, 2020 [50 favorites]

I wonder how the maskless cocktail partiers break down according to beliefs, e.g.

- I am rich, surely in my castle we will escape the Red Death
- MUST EMULATE DEAR LEADER OR RISK EXPULSION FROM TRIBE/MOB
- rules are for proles
- only poors and POC get it, as an obese 80 year old white man I am safe
- COVID just like flu, nobody dies from it
- COVID is a myth

Since Fox repeats almost all of these messages I guess it's some self-contradictory stew of all of them.
posted by benzenedream at 12:18 AM on October 7, 2020 [25 favorites]

The Commission on Presidential Debates said Tuesday night that Vice President Pence had dropped his objections to a plexiglass barricade on his side of the stage for Wednesday’s debate after viewing the setup during a walk-through of the debate hall. [...] The University of Utah, the site of the debate, has a policy requiring a 14-day self-quarantine for anyone exposed to someone with covid-19. [Article notes the super-positive company Pence has been keeping; Pence's physician Jesse Schonau and the CDC's Robert Redfield wrote letters okaying his participation. Pence brought doctor's notes to a debate with Kamala Harris. Utah isn't getting the stains off that stage.]

Utah is in the red zone for coronavirus cases, with 208 new cases per 100,000 people in the last week, according to a weekly report from the White House Coronavirus Task Force. That compared to a national average of 90 new cases per 100,000. [...] The Commission on Presidential Debates has promised to expel anyone from the debate hall in Utah who does not follow a mandate to wear a mask indoors. That mandate was disregarded by members of Trump's family at the first debate.- Washington Post, Oct. 6.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:26 AM on October 7, 2020 [8 favorites]

Yeah, I am trying to understand how infecting the donor base is a good thing. But Denial is a long, large river with many shores, I guess.
posted by jadepearl at 2:07 AM on October 7, 2020 [6 favorites]

From Bill Barr's DoJ? I'm bracing myself for the reveal being some sort of charge resulting from Hillary Clinton's emails, somehow. (I really hope I'm wrong!)
posted by fragmede at 3:03 AM on October 7, 2020 [4 favorites]

The Stride Piper@nomchompsky
Obviously it’s funny that Stephen Miller has it but he could have easily infected others. Please please please go get tested if you live in DC and own a Nazi memorabilia shop or a haunted sex doll brothel.
7:26 PM · Oct 6, 2020
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:15 AM on October 7, 2020 [89 favorites]

I haven’t touched anyone who doesn’t live in my house since March.

I haven't touched anyone at all since March. Thanks to the likes of Trump, Johnson and everyone else who doesn't take COVID seriously, that's likely to continue for many more months.
posted by essexjan at 3:40 AM on October 7, 2020 [21 favorites]

Biden’s lead up 21 points in a Boston Herald / Franklin Pierce University poll
posted by glaucon at 4:11 AM on October 7, 2020 [7 favorites]

If Trump loses, what are the chances of a veto-proof compromise bill getting through both houses before January? Not a rhetorical question; I have no idea and am actually curious.

If Trump loses, Dems are likely to hold out until the new year to pass an economic stimulus plan so they can get a better deal. Not sure if that means they would try to pass some kind of interim measure in the lame-duck session to tide people over until then.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 4:15 AM on October 7, 2020

How Much Would Trump’s Coronavirus Treatment Cost Most Americans?
NYTimes, but as I understand it, coronavirus news are free.
posted by mumimor at 4:57 AM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

I'm coming in late and I can't find it now, but I saw something on Twitter to the effect that Stephen Miller should be happy to have COVID, because it means he'll have more white blood cells.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 5:00 AM on October 7, 2020 [30 favorites]

My theory is that if Trump loses, he’s likely to demand a pardon/promise not to prosecute in exchange for his signature on any legislation.

(Of course, a smallish clump of GOP Reps and Senators could make Trump moot, but big emoji shrug.)
posted by notyou at 5:09 AM on October 7, 2020 [1 favorite]

That’s 21 points in the period immediately following Trump’s positive Covid test; it’s 14 points over the entire 5 days the poll was conducted.

The poll was conducted nationally among 1,003 likely voters over the phone and online between September 30 and October 4, with a 3.1 percent margin of error. When results from all five days of the survey are included, Biden holds an overall 51 percent to 37 percent lead over Trump.

posted by notyou at 5:14 AM on October 7, 2020 [5 favorites]

Yeah I think we can definitively say adieu to the sympathy bump.
posted by saturday_morning at 5:17 AM on October 7, 2020 [13 favorites]

So far, the “declassification” and “release of all” documents regarding the “Russian hoax” and Hillary Clinton’s email server appear, unsurprisingly, to be cherry-picked. Not all, only some, as you would expect.

I would like to see the full Mueller report, Steele memorandum, and the pee tape. I have little doubt somebody (Anybody? ... Vlad? ....) has a copy. Trump himself says it’s OK.
posted by sudogeek at 5:23 AM on October 7, 2020 [1 favorite]

Since Fox repeats almost all of these messages I guess it's some self-contradictory stew of all of them.

Drug dealers know that one does not get high off their own supply.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:23 AM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

...adieu to the sympathy bump.

Looks like Biden's got the empathy bump tho! Makes sense.
posted by dog food sugar at 5:38 AM on October 7, 2020 [6 favorites]

From The Late Late Show with James Corden: Maybe I’m Immune, a special version of Paul McCartney's classic "Maybe I'm Amazed"
posted by bitteschoen at 5:56 AM on October 7, 2020 [17 favorites]

I really appreciate all of the medical people who have weighed in on this thread.

I was hospitalized for five days with the flu last January (yay immunocompromised cancer patient). That frightening experience really put the fear of God in me. Reading the notes later, I saw that I had a sudden steep drop in blood pressure in the night, which led the nurse to call the doctor on call and I don't remember exactly what else ensued. What I didn't realize before that is that all of those annoying around-the-clock vitals checks are actually necessary (I'm sure this sounds stupid to medical folks, but since they'd never found anything before, I didn't understand what the big deal was).

I know nobody really knows the answer to this, but are they doing all those checks on Trump all night? It seems to me that things can go south very fast, and from the recent videos, he seems very sick (reminds me of my shortness of breath that turned out to be caused by a hemoglobin of 4.3). I assume Melania isn't in bed with him.
posted by FencingGal at 6:08 AM on October 7, 2020 [12 favorites]

Probably, FencingGal. Fifteen years later (pre-eclampsia) I still freak out around auto-matic blood pressure cuffs. They’d leave the cuff on me and it’d run every hour in addition to pulse oxy reader and every couple-hour rousals as they stabilized me.
posted by tilde at 6:15 AM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

I look at those photos of Trump supporters wearing "Fuck Your Feelings" t-shirts and I think my god how did we get here. How have white Americans come to be so desperate to appear oppressed. How has actual hatred become a political party platform. How has denying science, facts, how has that become a point of pride.

I know that if the human race lasts another 50 years or so (I won't live to see it), there will be lots of books written about this era that will have enough hindsight to see more than we can see right now.

The main thing I've learned about the human race in my 58 years as a paid-up member is that as presently organized it appears to have the collective attention span of approximately one human lifetime.

Most of us apparently don't take history the slightest bit seriously. I would have thought that almost any of the books written about the rise of European fascism in the 1930s, and a bit of general knowledge about the effects of the ensuing world war, should have served as clear warnings during the rise of post-Gingrich Republicanism but none of them really seem to have done; at least, not enough to prevent the re-imagined remake.

There seems to be a widespread tacit understanding that folks in pre-Nazi Germany were somehow essentially and completely different from folks in pre-Tea Party America. We're all modern and scientific now, see, plus we speak English instead of that excitable foreign jibber-jabber, so obviously we aren't going to fall for any of that Propaganda nonsense. Sigh.

So I have very little faith that the endless books that will, I agree, thoroughly document the present era's political impoverishment are going to be in any way capable of preventing the next round when it cranks up in another eighty years or so.

We can "lest we forget" and "never again" all we like, but the thing is that we do forget. Memories that belong to dead people seem to lose almost all their emotional heft when passed on second- and third-hand to the rest of us.

This, as much as anything else, is what makes the loss of indigenous cultures whose central organizing principle involves keeping the memory of significant and culture-defining moments continuously alive inside people's minds, as opposed to having them written down and consigned to dusty archives with long corridors leading straight down the memory hole, such an appalling, appalling tragedy.
posted by flabdablet at 6:15 AM on October 7, 2020 [92 favorites]

There seems to be a widespread tacit understanding that folks in pre-Nazi Germany were somehow essentially and completely different from folks in pre-Tea Party America.

This is an important point. And the folks in pre-Nazi Germany also thought they were different from the generations that abetted previous horrors. Again and again in memoirs of the Holocaust, people who lived through it said they couldn't imagine things getting as bad as they did because it was the modern era and the Germans were so civilized.
I am hoping that the way Germans came back from that means that we can too. (I really need some small sliver of hope right now. I am 61 years old, and I feel like I've spent a lifetime thinking the Republicans can't get any worse - and yet they've kept getting worse.)
posted by FencingGal at 6:25 AM on October 7, 2020 [30 favorites]

Most of us apparently don't take history the slightest bit seriously. I would have thought that almost any of the books written about the rise of European fascism in the 1930s, and a bit of general knowledge about the effects of the ensuing world war, should have served as clear warnings during the rise of post-Gingrich Republicanism but none of them really seem to have done; at least, not enough to prevent the re-imagined remake.

You all are assuming that people actually would want to prevent the remake because they think nazis and war are bad.

This seems like an assumption desperately in need of citation.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:29 AM on October 7, 2020 [19 favorites]

40+ years of organized right-wing media assaults, beginning in-earnest with talk radio in the 80s and the arrival of the Gingrich crowd. This has been, and continues to be, a purposeful dismantling of democracy.
It really looks deliberate, like they observed how calling people "cockroaches" on the radio created a handy exploitable holocaust in Rwanda, for instance, and they said, "Hey, neato! Let's pull out all the stops and try it here!"
posted by Don Pepino at 6:37 AM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

Right-wing fanatics love to point out that Nazis were National Socialists, emphasis on the socialists and therefore lefties. They don't see parallels with themselves.
posted by hazyjane at 6:38 AM on October 7, 2020 [8 favorites]

hazyjane: They must really get confused if they look at a titmouse
posted by SansPoint at 7:06 AM on October 7, 2020 [17 favorites]

In the "I shouldn't be surprised, but" division...

President Donald Trump was not being tested for COVID-19 every day before he contracted the virus, despite the White House giving the impression that he was, The New York Times reports. The reasoning behind the lack of testing was unclear, and questions remain about whether he had been tested before the Sept. 29 presidential debate.

One side is going to end up glaring at that debate until the end of time, sure that Trump knew he was positive and/or was symptomatic and tried to pass it to Biden intentionally. The other side will be glaring at that debate until the end of time, convinced that Antifa agents and/or Chris Wallace deliberately swabbed Trump's microphone with COVID germs.

Welcome to the Tyson Zone.
posted by delfin at 7:17 AM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

Seen elsewhere:

"Steve Miller has been tested positive for COVID-19."

"Steve Miller is a 77 year old musician. Not to be confused with Stephen Miller, a 364 year old vampire and speech writer."
posted by Foosnark at 7:24 AM on October 7, 2020 [24 favorites]

One side is going to end up glaring at that debate until the end of time, sure that Trump knew he was positive and/or was symptomatic and tried to pass it to Biden intentionally. The other side will be glaring at that debate until the end of time, convinced that Antifa agents and/or Chris Wallace deliberately swabbed Trump's microphone with COVID germs.

In a nutshell this (as best I can tell) is the split in the American public in a nutshell: One side believes the malfeasance of the other side is enacted through malicious neglect and self-interest (followers of the "never ascribe to malice that which can be attributed to incompetence" school of thought.) On the other side, a shadowy network of super operatives plotting and conniving to overthrow the righteous by seeing through schemes of incredible complexity and dubious sanity. (...on some social network I ran across someone claiming that the Biden family own an island next-door to Epstein's and that Ghislaine Maxwell had a submarine license and we all know what that means.)
posted by From Bklyn at 7:26 AM on October 7, 2020 [4 favorites]

He's alive. There's been about 37 Tweets and re-Tweets in the last couple of hours from him.
posted by essexjan at 7:27 AM on October 7, 2020

President Donald Trump was not being tested for COVID-19 every day

The test is really unpleasant. I got tested last Saturday and my nose hurt for a while after. I don’t often see Trump do anything that feels unpleasant, let alone thing that feel unpleasant and primarily benefit others.
posted by sadmadglad at 7:27 AM on October 7, 2020 [14 favorites]

"Steve Miller is a 77 year old musician. Not to be confused with Stephen Miller, a 364 year old vampire and speech writer."

Something something take the money and run.
posted by box at 7:28 AM on October 7, 2020 [12 favorites]

It really looks deliberate, like they observed how calling people "cockroaches" on the radio created a handy exploitable holocaust in Rwanda, for instance, and they said, "Hey, neato! Let's pull out all the stops and try it here!"

Well of course it's goddamn deliberate! Are people really going around thinking that the right is just stumbling upon all these extremely successful strategies that have secured them every branch of government and brainwashed a generation of voters? No wonder we keep losing, if we're going around thinking all this shit just happened to happen by accident.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:28 AM on October 7, 2020 [24 favorites]

Steve Miller is a 77 year old musician. Not to be confused with Stephen Miller, a 364 year old vampire and speech writer.

Guess which one said ...

Feed the babies
Who don't have enough to eat
Shoe the children
With no shoes on their feet
House the people
Living in the street
posted by ZenMasterThis at 7:30 AM on October 7, 2020 [49 favorites]

Stephen King wrote "Children of the Corn."
Steve King was raised in a cornfield with demonic children.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:31 AM on October 7, 2020 [10 favorites]

Something something take the money and run.

Makes his living off other people’s taxes.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:36 AM on October 7, 2020 [17 favorites]

How soon until President Skroob is furtively sniffing up cans of oxygen? Negative ten days?
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 7:40 AM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

The test is really unpleasant. I got tested last Saturday and my nose hurt for a while after. I don’t often see Trump do anything that feels unpleasant, let alone thing that feel unpleasant and primarily benefit others.

Yes, I've been thinking that for a while. I'm willing to bet any White House "test" has had since this whole thing started amounted to no more than a quick temperature check. Trump's just too much of a petulant baby to sit still for any more than that.
posted by Paul Slade at 7:40 AM on October 7, 2020 [9 favorites]

Just to remind us all that COVID-19 denial and stupidity are not limited to the White House, yesterday we had to call a 19-year-old who tested positive. He had gone to the other coast for the current college term because the campus had been reopened. Then there was a COVID outbreak on campus. But instead of quarantining all the kids until they were safe, the college sent them all home. All over the country. On airplanes. So we just had to file a detailed report with the state department of public health with information on an entire airliner full of people that may have been infected by this kid. That college president and the entire college leadership team should go to jail twice - once for opening the campus at all, and a second time for sending all those kids back home to become super spreaders on their own
posted by PhineasGage at 7:40 AM on October 7, 2020 [77 favorites]

The Rules for Displacing an Ailing Presidential Candidate, LawFare, Brian C. Kalt, Sunday 10/4/2020:

...basic “explainer” work is important, but it often overlooks more nuanced questions—there are just so many different scenarios that Trump’s illness could give way to. One particular hypothetical that hasn’t gotten much media attention is if a candidate is seriously ill but does not drop out. What happens here? Again, this is not immediately relevant to President Trump’s situation. But regardless of whether this particular situation comes to pass in the next 30 days—and let’s hope it doesn’t—it illuminates important features in the presidential electoral system.
...
Now imagine the following hypothetical scenario: President Wilcox is running for reelection. About a month before the election, she contracts an infectious disease that makes her seriously ill. She feels horrible and her prognosis is unclear. But for now she is conscious and able to communicate. She refuses to invoke Section 3 of the 25th Amendment to transfer power to the vice president, and she refuses to drop out of the presidential race. “I intend to get better,” she says in a statement she makes from the hospital, “and when I do, I will return home to the White House—even if I’m not better until after January 20, because I’m sure we are going to win.”

The leaders of the president’s party are unhappy. The election is close but winnable; they are worried that if the president cannot campaign vigorously she will lose. Wilcox’s hospitalization has dominated the news cycle for several days now, making it hard to sell her agenda or attack her opponent’s effectively. The party wants Wilcox to drop out of the race so that her running mate, Vice President Montrose, can head the ticket. (It goes without saying, but the real-life Republican Party clearly isn’t at this point with Trump). While replacing the president on the ticket would be a messy process, the party sees it as worthwhile if it would mean the difference between winning and losing the election. But all efforts to persuade Wilcox to step aside have failed. The party leaders start to look for ways to force her out.

At this point in the story, it matters whether President Wilcox is a Democrat or a Republican. Here, it’s party rules—not state or federal law—that provide the relevant process...

...details follow in the article: this would not be easy.
posted by cenoxo at 7:41 AM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

Ultimately what happens in these scenarios is the electors decide whether to exercise their own judgement and go faithless. The fines involved in most states would be easily covered with a gofundme.
posted by ocschwar at 7:44 AM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

Chance of winning the election, as forecast by the New York Times on October 20th, 2016: Clinton 92% / Trump 8%

Here's a futile exercise in empathy, but nevertheless: Imagine being Trump, thinking you had no chance of winning this immense THING and then wham. Mind SO blown. I have some metaphysical tendencies, and I know this would've made me experience so much awe, probably thrown into an existencial crisis (or at least some existential questioning and wondering at the mysterious ways of life/gods/God). I would have called my therapist and put her on retainer right then and there.

Wha a rollercoaster his life must feel like. And since he's been dismantling the whole edifice for short-term benefit, stealing stops, nuts, bolts, bits of wire and selling them for candy in the fair, he knows it'll end in a crash, derailment or collapse.
posted by ipsative at 7:45 AM on October 7, 2020 [4 favorites]

> The test is really unpleasant.

I had to get tested for chlamydia in the early 90's. The COVID test is NOTHING.
posted by davelog at 7:47 AM on October 7, 2020 [18 favorites]

Narcissists do not question. They do not have existential crises. He will never have some kind of Paul on the road to Damascus moment.
posted by winna at 7:50 AM on October 7, 2020 [34 favorites]

We can "lest we forget" and "never again" all we like, but the thing is that we do forget. Memories that belong to dead people seem to lose almost all their emotional heft when passed on second- and third-hand to the rest of us.

I feel like this is the entire reason for the anti-vax movement too. People who have grown up without childhood diseases literally killing every second child forget the absolute anguish and horror nature inflicted on families prior to our mastery of defense against these diseases.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:51 AM on October 7, 2020 [49 favorites]

Nicholas Christakis (Yale): White House was screening with Abbott's BinaxNOW antigen test, which was only for people with symptoms. It's 2000X less sensitive than PCR, and so sub-optimal here, especially if other precautions (like masking & distancing) are not in place

NYT:

Other health experts noted that the tests deployed by the White House, manufactured by Abbott Laboratories, were given emergency clearance by the Food and Drug Administration only for people “within the first seven days of the onset of symptoms.” But they were used incorrectly, to screen people who were not showing any signs of illness. Such off-label use, experts said, further compromised a strategy that presumably was designed to keep leading officials safe from a pandemic that so far has killed more than 210,000 Americans.

“It’s not being used for the intended purpose,” said Syra Madad, an infectious disease epidemiologist based in New York. “So there will be potentially a lot of false negatives and false positives.”

posted by Dashy at 7:51 AM on October 7, 2020 [12 favorites]

Wha a rollercoaster his life must feel like. And since he's been dismantling the whole edifice for short-term benefit, stealing stops, nuts, bolts, bits of wire and selling them for candy in the fair, he knows it'll end in a crash, derailment or collapse.

I was going to say "nobody put a gun to his head to run," but then, maybe Putin did.

Honestly, out of all of the scandal, weirdness, racism, crassness and incompetence, that's the part of the story I wonder about. Are Trump and other Republicans actually in fear of what Putin might do to them, financially or even physically? The guy straight-up has his people poison enemies and push them out of windows on the regular. If you owe him money, are you ever going to be able to relax?
posted by emjaybee at 7:54 AM on October 7, 2020 [12 favorites]

I'd bet dollars to donuts that they were using the rapid Abbott test on everyone except POTUS.

Which left him free to spread it for a week, undetected.
posted by Dashy at 7:55 AM on October 7, 2020 [5 favorites]

I hope Stephen Miller's doctors are enlisting scientists to help them study the progression of disease in a cold-blooded vertebrate. There's interesting biology to be done here.
posted by Dashy at 8:02 AM on October 7, 2020 [8 favorites]

I feel like this is the entire reason for the anti-vax movement too. People who have grown up without childhood diseases literally killing every second child forget the absolute anguish and horror nature inflicted on families prior to our mastery of defense against these diseases.

I saw something months ago on social media to the effect of, “Antivaxxers want a world with no vaccines. Right now we’re in a world that lacks one vaccine. How do you think it’s going so far?”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:06 AM on October 7, 2020 [78 favorites]

assuming that people actually would want to prevent the remake because they think nazis and war are bad

That's pretty much exactly how I arrived at the opinion about the one-lifetime attention span. Ask anybody who lived through WWII and you'll get very little disagreement about how bad war is. Ask anybody who survived the camps and you'll get very little disagreement about how bad Nazis are. But the fewer of those survivors remain, the more accessible the memory hole becomes for everybody else.
posted by flabdablet at 8:08 AM on October 7, 2020 [12 favorites]

Ask anybody who lived through WWII and you'll get very little disagreement about how bad war is. Ask anybody who survived the camps and you'll get very little disagreement about how bad Nazis are.

Wrong. I mean, sure, Nazis are bad, war is hell, blah blah blah is the generic story told, but the same guys who fought WWII were in charge to fight the Commies in Korea and sent their sons to fight in Vietnam without a second thought. They also fought black Americans as hard as they fought the Germans and jailed MLK. Going to war sucks, sure, but it doesn't turn you into a pacifist or make you care very much about abstract human suffering.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:26 AM on October 7, 2020 [17 favorites]

I look at those photos of Trump supporters wearing "Fuck Your Feelings" t-shirts and I think my god how did we get here.

assuming that people actually would want to prevent the remake because they think nazis and war are bad

That's pretty much exactly how I arrived at the opinion about the one-lifetime attention span.

Another problem is that we as a culture have yet to fully acknowledge the cruelty of our culture. One of the core tenets of of American culture is sadism, and we are still in the process of hashing that out.

Note that anytime we even broach the sins of our past, there are constant reflexive deflections people glom on to ("that's virtue signalling!", "that's white knighting!", "that's cancel culture!"). So much so that those deflections are now passe.

We still have a long way to go in terms of dealing with the psychopathic aspects of our culture.
posted by ishmael at 8:27 AM on October 7, 2020 [38 favorites]

I'd bet dollars to donuts that they were using the rapid Abbott test on everyone except POTUS.

Either he wasn't tested, or he was tested and didn't give a shit about being positive. Either option is monstrous and endangers everyone around you, but nothing else fits the timeline.
posted by benzenedream at 8:43 AM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

"Everyone around me is being tested; why should I have to get tested? Go stick that thing in someone else's nose" would be well within his typical patterns of behavior.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:48 AM on October 7, 2020 [7 favorites]

From way up above, but:

Jesus fuck remember in the Before Times when viruses were apolitical

So that would be...
- Before the HPV vaccine
- Before HIV
- probably Before others I'm not thinking of...wasn't there something going around some months ago comparing different cities' responses to the 1918 flu pandemic, and accordingly different results? Probably a political component there.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:51 AM on October 7, 2020 [26 favorites]

Couple of comments deleted. This isn't a all-topics thread and I'm going to ask people to drop the side track about personal experience with vaccines/childhood illness; it's fine if you want to talk vaccine history, but please start a thread about that instead.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:54 AM on October 7, 2020 [8 favorites]

White House was screening with Abbott's BinaxNOW antigen test, which was only for people with symptoms

I hope all those "candidates must undergo testing to participate" events are actually specifying which tests they'll consider acceptable.

“Antivaxxers want a world with no vaccines. Right now we’re in a world that lacks one vaccine. How do you think it’s going so far?”

I'm actually worried about the effect the upcoming vaccines might have on the anti-vax movement. My answer to anti-vaxxers has always been that vaccines are tested really, really thoroughly to be sure they're safe. But currently we have China, Russia, and the US making a point of putting speed before anything else and waiving all the normal testing regulations. I really hope my pessimism is unwarranted, but when all those "high percentage of people won't take covid vaccine" surveys came out, all I could think was that at this rate I wasn't sure if I'd feel safe taking the early vaccines either.

Ask anybody who lived through WWII and you'll get very little disagreement about how bad war is. Ask anybody who survived the camps and you'll get very little disagreement about how bad Nazis are.

WWII definitely had a huge effect on how people saw the world. But at the same time, a lot of research on post-war Germany shows that Germans saw Nazis as terrible - and as something alien to real German people, who would never do such things. And WWII took place only a little bit after what had until then been called the War to End All Wars, because it convinced so many people that war was bad.

In short, I really need to go relearn some cultural lore on optimism, because I'm not able to drum up enough on my own.
posted by trig at 8:54 AM on October 7, 2020 [8 favorites]

The horrors of WWII will not die off with the death of the last survivor. It’s extremely well documented. The issue is getting people to study history, to learn about where they and other people came from.
posted by njohnson23 at 8:56 AM on October 7, 2020 [4 favorites]

We still have a long way to go in terms of dealing with the psychopathic aspects of our culture.

When I first found out that hazing was a thing - which, if I recall correctly, happened because I had to ask my mother to explain what was going on in a movie parody in Mad magazine - I figured it had to be some kind of rare aberration.
posted by flabdablet at 8:59 AM on October 7, 2020 [9 favorites]

Going to war sucks, sure, but it doesn't turn you into a pacifist or make you care very much about abstract human suffering.

it sure worked that way for my dad, who saw real and prolonged combat 1944-45 in France, the Netherlands and finally Germany. He never spoke a word in favor of war (or any kind of violence as resolution to problems) in all the time I knew him. He did say that, in his experience, the ones who came out of it all still pro-war tended to be the ones who never actually saw combat, ended up working in the engineers or on the supply lines etc, or got trained and everything but the war ended before they ever made it to the front lines ...
posted by philip-random at 9:01 AM on October 7, 2020 [20 favorites]

I'm actually worried about the effect the upcoming vaccines might have on the anti-vax movement. My answer to anti-vaxxers has always been that vaccines are tested really, really thoroughly to be sure they're safe.

You're really right to be worried, given that we have historical proof dating all the way back to 1976 that rushing a vaccine out too fast in order to help a Republican presidential incumbent in an election year creates anti-vax movements.
posted by MrVisible at 9:03 AM on October 7, 2020 [19 favorites]

I hope all those "candidates must undergo testing to participate" events are actually specifying which tests they'll consider acceptable.

I really wish, once upon a star, that anyone who relies on tests would defer to the MDs and scientists who can determine which test is appropriate and when & who it needs to be taken.

We need to get back to a place where we listen to, trust, and even defer to expertise.
posted by Dashy at 9:09 AM on October 7, 2020 [6 favorites]

The counterpoint is Hitler who participated in very heavy infantry combat in WWI. (Curiously, he was not even supposed to be in the Prussian army, being an Austrian, and was most likely allowed to enlist due to a clerical error).
posted by rainy at 9:09 AM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

The issue is getting people to study history, to learn about where they and other people came from.

I would argue that the issue is getting people to know in their guts that the horrors of war are not things that happen to Other People in Other Places because That's Just How They Are Over There or That's Just How They Were Back Then or both but are, rather, an ever-present existential risk for any culture that allows insane people - that is, people whose grasp on reality is at best shaky - to be in charge.

I would also argue that it doesn't take paying an onerous amount of attention to observing their behaviour to conclude that anybody with a strong desire to amass wealth to the tune of billions of dollars is prima facie insane.
posted by flabdablet at 9:15 AM on October 7, 2020 [9 favorites]

We need to get back to a place where we listen to, trust, and even defer to expertise.

A large chunk of America does this.

A large chunk of America has been programmed specifically by forty years of conservative-media bombardment to reflexively reject expertise when its conclusions conflict with what they want or what is convenient.
posted by delfin at 9:17 AM on October 7, 2020 [8 favorites]

Going to war sucks, sure, but it doesn't turn you into a pacifist or make you care very much about abstract human suffering.

Kurt Vonnegut.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:18 AM on October 7, 2020 [6 favorites]

There is a whole sub-genre of memoirs from WW1 and WW2 written by Germans and other combatants that essentially glorifies the war and talks about how much fun it was. You can't really generalize about people's experiences or lessons learned. For every Goodbye To All That you'll find a Storm of Steel. I have a minor obsession with reading combat memoirs of this type and I think that a well curated selection of them might be the best history education possible, but then of course, our school system is not designed to produce pacifists.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:19 AM on October 7, 2020 [12 favorites]

The German nazi and Italian fascist movements were kickstarted by WW1 veterans who thought they weren't being given enough respect and/or jobs and stuff by their societies, so yeah.
posted by sukeban at 9:23 AM on October 7, 2020 [13 favorites]

It's almost as if experiencing war doesn't make people part of some monolithic mindset.

Anyway: I've seen a little speculation on it, and I'm starting to wonder--people who understand covid, please tell me if this is way off base--if maybe Trump's progression of symptoms is playing out this way because he's been sicker for longer than we're aware? Like maybe when he went to Walter Reed, he was already having his second-week crash? And that's why it's being covered up?

I'm not seeing that prospect discussed a whole lot, but it's in the mix. I'm wondering if that's already just a great big "yeah we all know" and I'm coming late to this as a serious possibility.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:23 AM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

Hi again folks - same thing about the broad-strokes Theories About History And War Experiences Etc. This thread is over 2500 comments. If you want to talk about broad-strokes topics like that, great but please make a new thread on that topic. Please try to keep this thread more narrowly for Trump-has-covid stuff.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:25 AM on October 7, 2020 [28 favorites]

11 a.m. Eastern has come and gone, and the only thing I'm seeing related to the DOJ & the press is this "Remarks by Assistant Attorney General for National Security John C. Demers on ISIS Militants Charged with Deaths of Americans in Syria" announcement. The suspects are being flown to Alexandria, VA and will appear in court this afternoon.

On preview: Last night on CNN, Dr Jonathan Reiner: "I think POTUS was infected with coronavirus for at least a week before he was admitted to the hospital...I think he's the superspreader. And I think the reason the WH will not have the CDC do a formal check...is they're concerned patient zero might be POTUS."
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:28 AM on October 7, 2020 [32 favorites]

Anyway: I've seen a little speculation on it, and I'm starting to wonder--people who understand covid, please tell me if this is way off base--if maybe Trump's progression of symptoms is playing out this way because he's been sicker for longer than we're aware? Like maybe when he went to Walter Reed, he was already having his second-week crash? And that's why it's being covered up?

It is certainly being theorized, based on a number of suppositions (such as dexamethasone being prescribed to Trump far earlier than in a typical COVID case progression).

But I suspect that we will never know the entire truth for sure. Because if the theory is true, either Trump refused to be tested until he was desperately ill (which the NYT is currently suggesting may be the case), or he and his staff were aware of his COVID+ status and went to the Barrett coming-out party, the Presidential debate and the fundraiser and rally regardless. The degree of reckless endangerment there of not just people's lives, but of the continuing function of American democracy itself is breathtaking in either case, and thus it will never be admitted out loud.
posted by delfin at 9:32 AM on October 7, 2020 [13 favorites]

@Iris Gambol no, Chris Wray and others did a 9 minute video address saying that voting is secure and will be secure and people can have confidence in the election. They didn't mention Trump but it's an obvious contradiction targeted at what he's been saying.
posted by rainy at 9:34 AM on October 7, 2020 [15 favorites]

Thank you, rainy!
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:37 AM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

Just leaving this here, because it articulates very well the inherent ableism of the propaganda spectacles Trump and his enablers have been manufacturing around his infection...

How Trump Exemplifies Our Ableist Culture:

It was a grotesque sight: the president of the United States preening from the White House balcony, his mask pulled defiantly off his face, able to infect anyone around him with the novel coronavirus. He had just been released from Walter Reed hospital, after he’d tweeted that we shouldn’t “be afraid of COVID” or “let it dominate your life”—as if it hadn’t already killed more than 200,000 people in the United States alone, including a dear friend of mine.

The coming narrative was depressing, predictable and sadly bipartisan: the president was virtue-signaling that he was a strong man who had beat a terrible disease.

[...]

We laud people who “overcome” their disabilities and deride people who live with them, even as this pandemic has taught us that we need mutual aid and interdependence. This ableist culture that glorifies "beating" and "getting over" sickness has ushered in the grotesque carnival we are witnessing now in the White House.

This framing is patriarchal, masculinist and transphobic, in that “being a man” means sucking it up and beating disease, acting “like a girl” means letting sickness get you down—while both of these gendered tropes reinforce a harmful gender binary. And it is ableist, in that people who are healthy and productive are simply considered to be superior to sick people. Similar to how racism privileges certain races over others, ableism privileges people with certain abilities over disabled people; the framing that sick people are worthy of derision while strong people are worthy of adulation built the architecture for Trump’s triumphant return.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:38 AM on October 7, 2020 [35 favorites]

Related Twitter thread on "how the Western idea of illness in leaders shifted from acceptable to a sign of weakness and effeminacy."
posted by nobody at 9:43 AM on October 7, 2020 [7 favorites]

This framing is patriarchal, masculinist

"President Trump’s handling of his coronavirus diagnosis models positive masculinity—rational and unbowed."
posted by bonefish at 9:46 AM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

Iris Gambol: 11 a.m. Eastern has come and gone, and the only thing I'm seeing related to the DOJ & the press is this "Remarks by Assistant Attorney General for National Security John C. Demers on ISIS Militants Charged with Deaths of Americans in Syria" announcement.

rainy: Chris Wray and others did a 9 minute video address saying that voting is secure and will be secure and people can have confidence in the election. They didn't mention Trump but it's an obvious contradiction targeted at what he's been saying.

That video was already up online and being passed around on Twitter yesterday. So that can't be what was meant to happen at 11am.

ETA: Sorry, wrong link. Here is the video from yesterday's FBI twitter feed.
posted by tzikeh at 9:52 AM on October 7, 2020 [4 favorites]

I checked in on the DoJ livestream at about 10 after 11 Eastern (10 after 8 here in Pacific time) and they were talking about the 2 British ISIS militants. It's possible that something else preceded that.
posted by hanov3r at 9:57 AM on October 7, 2020

"President Trump’s handling of his coronavirus diagnosis models positive masculinity—rational and unbowed."

What a happy life Heather Mac Donald must lead, unburdened by the thought of any neighbors or loved ones who are at elevated risk of death or severe health damage from covid.
posted by mochapickle at 9:57 AM on October 7, 2020 [11 favorites]

@tzikeh thanks for catching that, I only found it by searching news after 11am and it looked like a good match for what I was expecting to see, it is quite odd that they didn't do a conference at 11 and did not post an update either. Did Trump order them not to, I have to wonder?
posted by rainy at 10:00 AM on October 7, 2020

I don't know. Is it maybe this?

NEW: Federal prosecutors acknowledge that dates written on former FBI officials Pete Strozk and Andy McCabe's notes were not written by them.

Instead, they say the dates were estimated dates created by a review team and attached by post-it notes and inadvertently scanned in.

As you may recall, in the past few weeks Strozk and MCabe have raised concerns that dates appeared on their handwritten notes filed in the Flynn case that they say they never wrote.

Today, prosecutors acknowledged they were right, they didn't write in those dates. -- Tom Winter, NBC News (link goes to twitter)
posted by tzikeh at 10:03 AM on October 7, 2020 [16 favorites]

As of either yesterday or this morning, the plexiglass barriers have been added to tonight's vice-presidential debate stage. This Chicago Tribune article has a decent picture with stand-ins for where Harris and Pence would sit. The final objection from the Pence team had been to there being a shield near him and not just her (but apparently they acquiesced to that); it is 100% about their fear of being associated with covid safety because the apparent goal is pure denial, from top to bottom, of covid itself.

I myself am very not-reassured by the size of those barriers; it's nothing like what Jaime Harrison had brought to his takedown of Lindsay Graham. I hope Harris is willing to wear a really good mask just about the entire time, including while speaking, but I'm still flabbergasted that they agreed to something physical at all.

This smells too much like a Democratic fear of the effects of Murc's Law (the principle that only the Democratic Party is understood to have agency while Republicans are "forced" to do whatever they do). I think that if they had simply said "Remote debate or no debate", the broader public, including whatever swingy people remain, would almost certainly be on their side, rather than (per my supposition of fear-of-Murc's-Law) blaming the Democrats for being "political". Heck, if Republicans agreed to only videoconferences from here on, they would, I think, do better electorally and hardly lose any of their base; the entire White House has simply become high on their own supply rather than merely following the deplorables' lead.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 10:03 AM on October 7, 2020 [13 favorites]

The plexiglass barriers being used at tonight’s debate are pretty useless, experts say.

Linsey Marr, an environmental engineering professor at Virginia Tech and an expert in airborne viruses, laughed outright when she saw a picture of the debate setup.

“It’s absurd,” she said. When she first heard there would be a plexiglass barrier, she said, she imagined an enclosure with an open back or top. “But these are even smaller and less adequate than I imagined.”

Cancel the Vice Presidential Debate

That the Biden campaign and the Commission on Presidential Debates is playing ball with this reckless machismo, however, is a surprise. It is also a massive failure of leadership. It’s a failure on the part of the commission, because the commission should not be convening in-person gatherings which involve people who should be in isolation—to wit, Vice President Mike Pence. And it’s a failure on the part of the Biden campaign because the campaign should not be letting itself be taunted into irresponsible behavior by its opponents. Real leadership when the commission is plainly unable to host a safe debate would be to not show up for an unsafe one.

posted by BungaDunga at 10:15 AM on October 7, 2020 [31 favorites]

From the "Against Fear" article linked to above:

When Trump briefly left Walter Reed on Sunday in a motorcade to greet supporters, a doctor at the hospital complained that the Secret Service agents in Trump’s limousine “might get sick. They may die.” These are the same Secret Service agents who are expected to take a bullet for a president.

Okay, but are they expected to take a bullet from a president?
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:17 AM on October 7, 2020 [61 favorites]

The minimalist plexiglass barriers are ridiculous. Harris should ostentatiously drag her podium off to the side of the stage when she arrives; won't, of course, because decorum and we both agreed to the rules.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 10:30 AM on October 7, 2020 [6 favorites]

The minimalist plexiglass barriers are ridiculous. Harris should ostentatiously drag her podium off to the side of the stage when she arrives; won't, of course, because decorum and we both agreed to the rules.

Warren would have.
posted by Gadarene at 10:33 AM on October 7, 2020 [29 favorites]

And it’s a failure on the part of the Biden campaign because the campaign should not be letting itself be taunted into irresponsible behavior by its opponents.

This is exactly the sense I'm getting too. It reminds me of when Trump was trying to pressure NC's Democratic governor to allow them to hold the RNC convention at full capacity with no mask requirements in Charlotte in August, when it was so obviously a bad idea. The governor in that situation didn't cave. I want to hear Harris's take on why they're not insisting the debates happen remotely when it's been shown that the "honor system" doesn't work with people like Trump and his enablers.
posted by wondermouse at 10:34 AM on October 7, 2020 [10 favorites]

> I want to hear Harris's take on why they're not insisting the debates happen remotely when it's been shown that the "honor system" doesn't work with people like Trump and his enablers.

Charlie Brown's got a real good feeling that surely this time Lucy is not going to pull the football away.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:39 AM on October 7, 2020 [18 favorites]

Why can't he say, "Debate is delayed until Trump family wears their masks, as was agreed upon"?

Short answer:

Advertising

Longer answer:

Having Trump means people use whomever's service for whatever reason. Statements like 'he is good for ratings' is out there on the record. Books like Dark Money mention it. And people like Jim, the ad attacker at Attack Ads! have had a few shows where he takes books/articles and adds his own observations on the advertising/political election interactions during the midterms and now during this round of advertising spending.
posted by rough ashlar at 10:49 AM on October 7, 2020

I just realized -- honor system..... with Trump ??!!!
posted by rainy at 10:52 AM on October 7, 2020 [8 favorites]

That Lawfare article also has a good picture of the debate set-up. Besides the point of medical professionals calling them ridiculous... I don't see one for the moderator????
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 10:56 AM on October 7, 2020 [4 favorites]

Okay, but are they expected to take a bullet from a president?

“I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:00 AM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

I think that if they had simply said "Remote debate or no debate", the broader public, including whatever swingy people remain, would almost certainly be on their side

This seems 100% correct to me. Just saw a poll that showed something like 76% of the public supports mask mandates. People get it. This is dangerous. Acting like it's not dangerous, if anything, undermines the Democrats' pragmatic, science-based, reasonable-caution stance on COVID-19. It undermines the impression that Ds know how to manage the epidemic.
posted by Miko at 11:01 AM on October 7, 2020 [12 favorites]

Other than wind noise and if used in a Trump/Biden debate his hair why not filtered airflow over them like a flow hood? The best answer would have been a 'virtual' debate but hey, lets just keep going with a system established in a time before the technology of today because tradition must be maintained.

I guess the upside of Pence giving the COVID to Harris would be a real-time demonstration of what one needs to do to be safe from this disease from how people in buildings needs to be addressed and many hours of discussion about how the economic model in play has prompted the COVID outcomes we are seeing.

Like how in counties that did not have face-to-face school the cases are lower then the counties that have reopened the grade schools. Or (insert a whole bunch of other things that would move the post farther from Donald has Da Covid.)
posted by rough ashlar at 11:04 AM on October 7, 2020

I think that if they had simply said "Remote debate or no debate"

Plus it's something we already know how to do in the context of presidential debates -- Nixon was in LA and Kennedy was in NYC for their third debate. There is absolutely no reason at all the candidates and moderator need to be in the same building, let alone in the same room, except for the fact that it makes good television.
posted by nathan_teske at 11:06 AM on October 7, 2020 [17 favorites]

I actually feel for the Biden-Harris campaign, there is really not a good option. One of the reasons Clinton was easier to beat via shenanigans, was simple sexism. Women operate at a deficit in the public eye, due to sexism. A person as accomplished as Harris should not have the slightest bit of anxiety about mowing over a milquetoast empty suit like Pence, but because of sexism, she does have to worry about perceptions of weakness next to a male candidate if they make a bigger fuss/threaten to walk away. And maybe she and the Biden campaign feel like they can't take that chance. Maybe Harris personally feels that way.

I'm scared for her. I don't want her to get sick. I'm angry at the organizers for their pitiful "protection" and for providing nothing at all to the moderator, which is baffling in itself.
posted by emjaybee at 11:08 AM on October 7, 2020 [25 favorites]

Quiz show or no show.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:09 AM on October 7, 2020 [9 favorites]

Just saw a poll that showed something like 76% of the public supports mask mandates. People get it.

This is one of those places where the Rs are trying to be as "small government" as possible. You see it in the messaging around masks at the White House - no mandate, because they expect people to assume personal responsibility. It's "we don't NEED to make this a rule because we trust people will act the right way". In the meantime, 76% of people are looking around and going "THERE IS MOTHERFUCKING TRASH ALL OVER THE COMMONS CAN WE PLEASE GET SOME GODSDAMNED RULES AROUND HERE" because apparently a bunch of us would rather act the damned fool.
posted by hanov3r at 11:13 AM on October 7, 2020 [7 favorites]

Trump has been symptom-free for more than 24 hours, doctor says in new Covid memo

President Trump has been “symptom-free” for more than 24 hours as he continues to be treated for the coronavirus at the White House, one of his doctors said in a new memo.

Trump has also been “fever-free for more than 4 days” and has not required supplemental oxygen since leaving Walter Reed National Military Medical Center, the doctor said.

posted by dmh at 11:13 AM on October 7, 2020

Trump still seemingly struggling to breathe after hospital return, White House aides say
9:36 a.m.
posted by robbyrobs at 11:16 AM on October 7, 2020 [4 favorites]

I suppose releasing conflicting reports really serves their agenda in the end. Make sure no one can say for sure who’s telling the truth. Discredit whoever’s most convenient in the moment. It’s not alternative facts, it’s Quantum Truth. All things are true and false simultaneously! Stop thinking so much, you’re gonna hurt yourself.
posted by wabbittwax at 11:22 AM on October 7, 2020 [17 favorites]

Trump has also been “fever-free for more than 4 days”

So at daycare they ask us if our child has been on fever reducing medication in the last 24 hours. I'm wondering that about the president.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 11:23 AM on October 7, 2020 [20 favorites]

I suppose releasing conflicting reports really serves their agenda in the end. Make sure no one can say for sure who’s telling the truth. Discredit whoever’s most convenient in the moment. It’s not alternative facts, it’s Quantum Truth

He's been able to find some quack to give him a clean bill of health for the entire time since he entered the race way back when, reports that he's fine are not very credible.
posted by StarkRoads at 11:26 AM on October 7, 2020 [4 favorites]

So at daycare they ask us if our child has been on fever reducing medication in the last 24 hours. I'm wondering that about the president.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 11:23 AM on October 7 [+] [!]

Apparently your child *is* a fever reducing medication?
posted by mrnutty at 11:26 AM on October 7, 2020 [62 favorites]

Dexamethasone can reduce fevers.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:29 AM on October 7, 2020 [9 favorites]

The President's physician wants you to know that on Monday the President had antibodies in his bloodstream.*

*(Because he was injected with antibodies. His body's own antibodies won't appear for another couple weeks if ever. But let's not mention that.)
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 11:34 AM on October 7, 2020 [26 favorites]

Borrowing from another thread, the new Quinnipiac polls this morning are good. 11-point lead in Florida, 13-point lead in Pennsylvania, 5-point lead in Iowa (both for Biden and for the Democratic Senate candidate).
posted by saturday_morning at 11:38 AM on October 7, 2020 [6 favorites]

And as always, when it comes to Trump's behavior, Susan Collins is concerned...
posted by PhineasGage at 11:38 AM on October 7, 2020 [5 favorites]

If Senator Collins is ever relieved of her concern she will face the choice of ascending immediately to nirvana or remaining here as a bodhisattva
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 11:40 AM on October 7, 2020 [47 favorites]

I can't risk believing any of the polls - burned by what happened in 2016, extremely wary of any data coming in during a very volatile and uncertain situation both regarding all of the candidates' health and the mess in Congress (I know, I know, which one?), and certain of all of the voter suppression and legal challenges and other bullshit we know the GOP is going to get up to. I wish I could believe the polls; my intestines would be happier.
posted by tzikeh at 11:43 AM on October 7, 2020 [13 favorites]

> It’s not alternative facts, it’s Quantum Truth.

The liar is inescapably concerned with truth-values. In order to invent a lie at all, he must think he knows what is true. And in order to invent an effective lie, he must design his falsehood under the guidance of that truth. On the other hand, a person who undertakes to bullshit his way through has much more freedom. His focus is panoramic rather than particular. He does not limit himself to inserting a certain falsehood at a specific point, and thus he is not constrained by the truths surrounding that point or intersecting it. He is prepared to fake the context as well, so far as need requires.

Harry Frankfurt, On Bullshit
posted by Westringia F. at 11:44 AM on October 7, 2020 [22 favorites]

East Manitoba. It does not take two weeks to start producing your own antibodies. (Edited to add: sometimes it can take weeks)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:47 AM on October 7, 2020

From Eric Topol, one of the more authoritative doctors on Twitter, re: Trump's treatment and antibodies.
posted by PhineasGage at 11:53 AM on October 7, 2020

Zachary Koenig, MSc @ImmunoCatAccnt: "Earliest you’d have bonafide Trump IgG is ~2 weeks from the point he was infected... Very broad strokes: your body goes through a whole process to make antibodies which are popularly considered the main source of "protective" immunity to viral infections. This process of creating antibodies goes through a golrified selection process of trial and error for generating these antibodies. There are a few iterations of antibodies but the one Dr. Conley is suggesting Trump already has only crop up at detectable levels at around 2 weeks after infection...as well as being the same subtype (IgG) as the antibody therapy he got"
posted by BungaDunga at 11:54 AM on October 7, 2020 [6 favorites]

I don't believe single polls, i cautiously believe fivethirtyeight.
posted by rainy at 11:58 AM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

You're not symptom free if you're taking drugs that mask symptoms
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:59 AM on October 7, 2020 [29 favorites]

Or: "Antibodies can take days or weeks to develop in the body following exposure to a SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) infection and it is unknown how long they stay in the blood."
The WHO gives a general 6 to 8 days for beginning antibody production.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:59 AM on October 7, 2020

Oh and IgM antibodies come before IgG antibodies.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:00 PM on October 7, 2020

Meg Tirrell @megtirrell: "Regeneron notes of report President Trump has antibodies: “Given the volume of IgG antibodies delivered in our therapy, and the timing of these tests, it is likely that the second test is detecting REGN-COV2 antibodies.”"
posted by BungaDunga at 12:01 PM on October 7, 2020 [8 favorites]

Vote vote vote, but remember that these kinds of good polls are a lot more helpful than doomsaying.
posted by azpenguin at 12:01 PM on October 7, 2020 [14 favorites]

The [Cornell] study, which evaluated 38 million articles published by English-language, traditional media worldwide, identified over 1.1 million news articles that disseminated, amplified or reported on misinformation related to the pandemic. The misinformation conversation was dominated by 11 primary topics, ranging from conspiracy theories to attacks against Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

...

The study found that comments by US President Donald Trump drove major spikes in the “miracle cures” misinformation topic, led by his April 24 musing about the possibility of using disinfectants internally to cure the coronavirus. Trump’s advocacy of unproven treatments such as hydroxychloroquine, as well as his admission that he was using the drug in an attempt to stave off the virus, also prompted major spikes in the misinformation conversation.

These findings suggest that President Trump was quite likely the largest driver of misinformation during the COVID pandemic to date, the study authors noted.

posted by Lonnrot at 12:03 PM on October 7, 2020 [17 favorites]

Yes you can get IgM antibodies within 3-5 days of infection, but that's different from IgG antibodies, which are a marker of long-term immunity rather than acute infection. Either they're antibodies from his monoclonal antibody treatment, or he's been sick for a while, in which case Dr Whatshisname may regret reporting that result.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:04 PM on October 7, 2020 [7 favorites]

I'm sorry. Didn't read the physician's letter. IgG antibodies are more unlikely to be self-produced at the time.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:07 PM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

Students from Middlebury have made an amazing tracker. All sorts of ways to look at the data about this (these?) super-spread event.
posted by meinvt at 12:15 PM on October 7, 2020 [7 favorites]

In summary, if you are known to be carrying an deadly airborne virus, you don't get to go to the office and work around other employees. Unless you are the President of the United States. Then you get to do that.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:36 PM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

Narcissists do not question. They do not have existential crises. He will never have some kind of Paul on the road to Damascus moment.

But they do experience extreme stress at contemplating their own demise, as we all do.
posted by ipsative at 12:43 PM on October 7, 2020

Either they're antibodies from his monoclonal antibody treatment, or he's been sick for a while, in which case Dr Whatshisname may regret reporting that result.

In the October 5th episode of This Week in Virology, Dr. Daniel Griffin cautiously speculated (discerned?) that Trump was in his 7th or 8th day of illness. I *think* the reasoning is that looking at his drug regime, the timing of the Dexamethasone is a big clue. Again, I'd have to relisten but I think he said that this drug isn't given early in the viral phase because patients have tended to do worse under that scenario.
posted by kitcat at 12:44 PM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

I can't risk believing any of the polls

I think most likely the polls reflect public opinion. But I also know that we face more voter suppression and ratfuckery than in any other modern American election. And I know that if Biden wins, every single vote for him, from anywhere in the country, will make it a little less plausible for Trump to make his inevitable claim that the election was fraudulently stolen from him. Which will be a good thing for humanity.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:45 PM on October 7, 2020 [14 favorites]

Has he been making any public appearances?
posted by ipsative at 12:48 PM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

I realized after the fact that the whole whirlwind of Trump going to the hospital and then dashing out again reminded me of the 'Rob Ford goes to rehab' chaos

Some people already know this, but for those who don't: the Toronto Star reporter who now covers Trump - Daniel Dale - was working the Toronto city hall beat at the time of Rob Ford. If he ever writes his memoirs, they will be an entertaining read.

Dale works hard at ferreting out every untruth that the President utters, which to me seems like an exhausting and possibly quixotic endeavor.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 12:53 PM on October 7, 2020 [21 favorites]

Metafilter Megathread: An exhausting and possibly quixotic endeavor.
posted by glaucon at 12:58 PM on October 7, 2020 [15 favorites]

I'm not going to believe that he's symptom free until he speaks on camera, unedited and not prerecorded. Right now it seems like everyone in his orbit is anticipating his recovery so they're throwing a Hail Mary, saying he's already recovered in the hopes that it will shorten the perception of the duration of his illness.
posted by zixyer at 12:58 PM on October 7, 2020 [10 favorites]

If there was ever a time a White House (live) reality show (The Truman Show-style) would have made sense, then that time is now.
posted by ipsative at 1:11 PM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

Apologies for the grammar, too much subjunctivity for me.
posted by ipsative at 1:12 PM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

There's a long history of this regime declaring something that doesn't help them as Officially Done at some semi-arbitrary point (often when the thing in question is in a maximally favorable state) in order to make that the public perception.

It unfortunately pretty much worked when it came to the Kremlin entanglements and Mueller Report, because we've had quite a few revelations and big stories even since then but they were brushed under the rug -- partly because the pandemic is bigger news, yes, but partly because they had successfully established that All Of It Already Happened (And Was a Nothingburger). Other examples include their continued use of peak job/growth numbers as "the" numbers after which any apparent downturn doesn't matter, and their very-likely forthcoming strategy of saying that a given hour of Election Night should be the final tally, never mind counting any additional ballots. In fact, they even tried it with covid-19 itself all the way back in April -- remember the triumphal stuff about how they'd open up churches in Easter?

A difference is that the pandemic is fundamentally less abstract than either "the economy" or the Kremlin stuff, and it's likely to remain the top story through November. Plus, when it comes to Trump specifically, they reeeally can't hide his physical condition without just hiding the man himself. If he has a coughing fit on video, the party line will definitely be "Whatever this is,it's not his Covid -- he fully recovered, kicked it flat on its ass, remember?"
posted by InTheYear2017 at 1:13 PM on October 7, 2020 [8 favorites]

In regards to Patient 0's sickness timeline, I think it's likely that the doctors don't actually know. They're treating him based on demand (antibody cocktail, remdesivir) and symptoms (dex).

So the docs' treatment precision is limited. That would account for giving early-stage drugs on Friday, then starting dex the next day. No one actually knows. Occam's razor also points to aimless shitshow.

If the White House was only testing visitors - not Patient 0 - they do not know when he was exposed and/or when disease started, because they don't have test data, and Patient 0, like Typhoid Mary, is an unreliable narrator.

This is also consistent with the WH refusal to say when he was last negative. They don't know.
posted by Dashy at 1:42 PM on October 7, 2020 [16 favorites]

This is also consistent with the WH refusal to say when he was last negative. They don't know.

Yep. And they don’t know because they didn’t test the president, at least not regularly. I’m recalling an interview this summer, he and the interviewer were outdoors — maybe the Chris Wallace one? DJT specifically said he didn’t have to test because everyone around him was tested.
posted by mochapickle at 1:52 PM on October 7, 2020 [4 favorites]

Dashy, while not an official announcement, yesterday the Washington Post had: Another Gold Star mother who attended the [Sept. 27 White House] event with Hampton reached out to the White House afterward and received an email that confirmed that everyone at the military event had tested negative for the coronavirus on Sept. 27. The email also stated that Trump had “several negative tests” between that Sunday evening and his positive test on Thursday, Hampton said.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:52 PM on October 7, 2020 [4 favorites]

Trump has been symptom-free for more than 24 hours, doctor says in new Covid memo

Consecutively?
posted by mazola at 1:53 PM on October 7, 2020 [38 favorites]

Giuliani says he's taking hydroxychloroquine despite testing negative for COVID-19
posted by gwint at 1:54 PM on October 7, 2020 [7 favorites]

Trump has been symptom-free for more than 24 hours, doctor says in new Covid memo

Consecutively?

...In his lifetime?
posted by Miko at 1:54 PM on October 7, 2020 [10 favorites]

WH has been super cagey about whether he (or anyone in his entourage) was tested before the debate. It was "honor system" and they all arrived too late to be tested by Cleveland Clinic onsite.

My interpretation of that is that they tested everyone -but- him using the low-sensitivity Abbott tests discussed above.

I'm also betting they straight-up lied to the Gold Star people.
posted by Dashy at 1:58 PM on October 7, 2020 [13 favorites]

I just realized I'm annoyed because the CDC has become an unreliable pawn in this administration, and he won't even follow their adulterated, probably dangerous guidelines.
posted by lauranesson at 2:01 PM on October 7, 2020 [9 favorites]

Giuliani says he's taking hydroxychloroquine despite testing negative for COVID-19

This will probably go about as well as the time he decided to locate the NYC Office of Emergency Management HQ in building 7 of the World Trade Center.
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:03 PM on October 7, 2020 [10 favorites]

The doctor's letter could have been clearer if it had just said Trump has mouse antibodies.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:08 PM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

The doctor's letter could have been clearer if it had just said Trump has mouse antibodies.

But then the President would think he was immune to mice, and who knows what hijinks he'd get up to?
posted by MrVisible at 2:10 PM on October 7, 2020 [6 favorites]

Are you a man, or are you a mouse?
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:11 PM on October 7, 2020 [1 favorite]

Or a Muppet?
posted by Melismata at 2:12 PM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

If You Give A Mouse An Antibody
posted by riverlife at 2:14 PM on October 7, 2020 [20 favorites]

CNN: "In an unprecedented move," the New England Journal of Medicine has published an editorial "condemning the Trump admin for its response to the Covid-19 pandemic – and calling for the current leadership in the US to be voted out of office."
posted by cashman at 2:14 PM on October 7, 2020 [77 favorites]

Gee, Brain, what do you want to do tonight?
posted by bcd at 2:15 PM on October 7, 2020 [9 favorites]

Gee, Brain, what do you want to do tonight?

VP Debate: Tell your god to ready for blood.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:22 PM on October 7, 2020 [5 favorites]

Are people really going around thinking that the right is just stumbling upon all these extremely successful strategies that have secured them every branch of government and brainwashed a generation of voters? No wonder we keep losing, if we're going around thinking all this shit just happened to happen by accident.

I mean, no, I knew they were being quite deliberate with their southern strategy and their gerrymandering and their prison industrial complex and of course the godforsaken electoral college and skull and bones and blah blah everlasting blah, but I thought it was all in the service of seizing money and power for the sake of money and power. I have to admit, I did not suspect that they were all bloodthirsty death cultists out to murder hundreds of thousands of people. I legitimately thought it was all toward a more perfect realization of Grover Norquist's plan to shrink government in order to never again undergo the agony of paying taxes or seeing someone who went to a state school get their hands on a crumb of something valuable. I knew they wanted to take All the Money Forever. I did not think they watched what happened in Rwanda and remembered what happened in the lead-up to WWII and said, "Looks fun, let's gin up a genocide! Invite the Nazis and the Klan under the tent! The word lab said to make extra sure to call the libs 'cockroaches' on your show, Michael Savage, and soon we can sip pinot while we watch the blood of the Kennedys run in the streets!"

Every now and then something would happen--like McCain taking a few seconds to school that teaparty raver woman at his town hall and tell her Obama was an honorable man--that would seem to imply that they were not actually out for wholesale slaughter. But now that "there are good people on both sides" and the proud boys are asked to stand back and stand by but if it's quite convenient could you maybe shoot a few protesters to death now and then and 200k of us are dead and they're nakedly unconcerned... Uh... Welp: it's not like the native American genocide was an accident.

That would account for giving early-stage drugs on Friday
Maybe he's been on the antibody cocktail for weeks, prophylactically. He did say at one point that he was taking hydroxychloroquin prophylactically.
posted by Don Pepino at 2:27 PM on October 7, 2020 [21 favorites]

Hey y'all, we're over 2500 comments here. Less random riffing please.
posted by Candleman at 2:27 PM on October 7, 2020 [17 favorites]

For the various comments about how the CDC is a pawn of THIS administration please consider that replacing this administation won't some how make the CDC become a bastion of truth and a no spin zone.

Governmments and people in power make 'don't panic the masses' arguments often enough. And while there was a link in the comments here on the blue to a medium.com article back in the 1st week of April by someone with domain knowlege who stated masks were needed and this was airborne the CDC was saying something different and later Fauchi stated they did not make truthful statements about masks to 'avoid panic'.

With what we know about this virus and its transmission - is 6 foot spacing still the best plan? And if not and the "fibbing" was JUST a "Trumpist Death Cult" then where is the not the political death cult demanding a change in the guidelines?

That 6 foot guideline was an economic decision and the major political parties bend the knee to the economic pressure.
posted by rough ashlar at 2:29 PM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

I realized after the fact that the whole whirlwind of Trump going to the hospital and then dashing out again reminded me of the 'Rob Ford goes to rehab' chaos, what with all the speculation about his health, actual whereabouts, committment to medical treatment, etc., etc., etc..

It reminded me of his cancer diagnosis, just before the municipal election registration deadline. We know how this ends.

For those just joining us, Toronto mayor Rob Ford was a populist outsider, a millionaire who touted his inherited wealth as a symbol of shrewd business acumen, who swore he would drain the swamp (although he used the metaphor of ending the gravy train). He won a meagre plurality of the mayoral vote but spent all his time boasting about the historic landslide victory he had achieved. His plans, once in office, mostly consisted of jughead plans to reduce taxes (and thus decrease revenue) and piss off the liberals in lieu of any actual policy. His personal style was pugnacious, nyekulturny, and prone to absurd lies invented on the spot. His era was marked by chaos and his own frustrated government doing all they could to minimize the damage by stripping away as much power as they could from him. After a grim health assessment late in his four year term, he withdrew from his re-election campaign on literally the very last day possible, slotting in his brother/enabler/hype man at the minute; Doug Ford came in second and skulked out of politics before returning a few years later, but his is a different story.

To fully play out the second-time-as-farce aspects, 45 would have to bow out and say that the DONALD TRUMP on the ballot actually refers to DJT Jr., which tactic RoFo also prefigured. Junior would lose and 45 would himself perish of his ailment in the fullness of time

TL;dr --the last four years has given everyone in southern Ontario a massive case of deja vu.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:30 PM on October 7, 2020 [31 favorites]

I have to admit, I did not suspect that they were all bloodthirsty death cultists out to murder hundreds of thousands of people.

Step 1: Rich and powerful people looking for more money and power
Step 2: Pump out brain-rotting disinformation to produce ~~death cultists~~reliable voters
Step 3: Those voters chafe at the old-school politicians who are insufficiently culty
Step 4: Those voters start voting true-believer cultists into the national party
Step 5: The remaining old-school politicians get scared and roll over into being fake cultists; the remainder retire
Step 6: Many of the fake cultists become cultists through classical conditioning.

They didn't really care about murdering hundreds of thousands of people as long as they were doing it abroad; the transition may have been fairly easy.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:33 PM on October 7, 2020 [19 favorites]

Fauchi stated they did not make truthful statements about masks to 'avoid panic'.

My recollection, and please let me know if I am wrong, is that Fauci said they did this becaise the issue was there wasn't enough PPE to go around and it was essential that healthcare workers had the PPE they needed to keep doing their jobs, so they downplayed masks because they didn't want everyone to hoard N95 masks and have all the healthcare workers die and then we'd be in even worse shape.

So that's not to say that essentially that's not the same thing, but just that every public health statement has some level of "What are people actually likely to do?" compromise built into it. The WHO was suggesting masks back then because they didn't have to manage American exceptionalism.

That 6 foot guideline was an economic decision

Would love to read more about this.
posted by jessamyn at 2:48 PM on October 7, 2020 [37 favorites]

CNN: "In an unprecedented move," the New England Journal of Medicine has published an editorial "condemning the Trump admin for its response to the Covid-19 pandemic – and calling for the current leadership in the US to be voted out of office."
Forgive my ignorance, is the unprecedented move that NEJM is making this statement, or that any medical journal is?
posted by 8dot3 at 3:06 PM on October 7, 2020

That 6 foot guideline was an economic decision

For what it is worth, this is a case where the CDC recommendation is more stringent than the WHO recommendation, which recommends at least 1 meter (~3.3 feet).
posted by RichardP at 3:07 PM on October 7, 2020 [6 favorites]

The WHO was suggesting masks back then because they didn't have to manage American exceptionalism.
Exactly.
You guys need to get a healthcare system, and this is the burning platform that can get you there. There are so many things about the US situation right now that come down to not having a real public health system. I'm guessing a Clinton administration would have provided free tests and more tests and better tracking. But people without insurance or with large co-pays would still have avoided testing out of fear of loosing their jobs or going bankrupt, and that would still have been a public health issue.
posted by mumimor at 3:13 PM on October 7, 2020 [19 favorites]

In June, Fauci said US government held off promoting face masks because it knew shortages were so bad that even doctors couldn't get enough. (Business Insider) "Now we have masks, and we know that you don't need an N95 if you're an ordinary person in the street," he said. "We also know that simple cloth coverings that many people have can work as well as a mask in many cases."

The 6-foot social-distancing rule is based on nearly 80-year-old science. Scientists at MIT and Oxford have created a traffic-light system to use instead. (Business Insider, Aug 25, 2020) In the early 1940s, scientists finally got their first glimpses of people's sneezes hurtling through the air in real time, at a capture rate of 30,000 frames a second, confirming that indeed, most of the stuff we throw into the air when we sneeze, cough, or yell tends to settle down to the ground within about a wingspan or so (say, 3 to 6 feet). [...] Back then, scientists maintained that most of the infectious gunk people expel (say, about 90% of their pathogens) travel less than 6 feet away.

Their study measurements were never meant to be taken as hard-and-fast rules about how far we should stand from other people during a pandemic, though. Nevertheless, these 3-to-6-feet rules of thumb have become easy-to-follow protocols for keeping potentially sick people at arm's length during the coronavirus outbreak.

JENNISON, MARSHALL W. The Dynamics of Sneezing - Studies by HighSpeed Photography. Sci. Monthly 52, PP. 24-33, January 1941.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:15 PM on October 7, 2020 [14 favorites]

Mumimor, sure it would be nice but I’m not holding my breath.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 3:16 PM on October 7, 2020

In his latest video, the President says that his COVID-19 infection is a blessing. At last, something that all Americans can agree on
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:17 PM on October 7, 2020 [13 favorites]

Had I actually read the CNN article about NEJM I would have answered my own question about journals and politics.

In my defense, I did read the actual NEJM statement. They aren’t fucking around.
posted by 8dot3 at 3:17 PM on October 7, 2020 [7 favorites]

@mochapickle that rang a bell to me too, but if he said it, it seems earlier than the summer.

“He has been concerned that there are people who have been in close quarters and nearby him who are infected. His principal method has been, ‘I’ll make sure everyone around me is tested and then I don’t have to take precautions.’

Washington post, May 11, quoting "one former official" not (necessarily) quoting Trump, during the first White House covid outbreak

As Vice President of the United States I'm tested for the coronavirus on a regular basis, and everyone around me is tested for the coronavirus

Newsweek, May 5, quoting Pence, after not wearing a mask in the Mayo clinic
posted by joeyh at 3:33 PM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

What Dashy said above makes a lot of sense, and it fits with the casual disregard that seems to characterize the Trump White House. The doctors gave Trump both early onset and late onset treatments because no one actually knows when he was first infected, but they suspect it was earlier than Wednesday. Before Thursday Trump probably wasn't tested for Covid very often. Everyone around him was tested (with the wrong tests), so he didn't have to be. Or at least that was probably the thinking.

If that's the case, then maybe Friday or Saturday was the cliff, and it looks like he's going to get better from here instead of worse. But only because he was lucky, and it's still unclear if he's suffered any lasting respiratory and cardiac damage.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:39 PM on October 7, 2020

You guys need to get a healthcare system

Yeah I'll just pick one up on my next Costco run.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:47 PM on October 7, 2020 [43 favorites]

missed this paste-over, about six-foot economy: the 1941 study is in the previous comment, and meant to add, Business decisions didn't shape the original six-feet guidance. I think the term 'six-foot economy' (use of the original rule in the current crisis, and its impact on the economy) is a neologism; I thought it was coined by Bart van Ark, global chief economist at The Conference Board. (Newsweek, May 4, 2020). (Conference Board webcast, Window On Rebooting A Six-Foot Economy, April 22.) But in looking up that Newsweek link crediting van Ark, now I'm seeing Dana Love's "Recovery in the Six Foot Economy" from April 20 on medium.com.

^yes to concerns over the possibility of "any lasting respiratory and cardiac damage," and today's Business Insider has More than 80% of people hospitalized for COVID-19 suffer neurological symptoms, from confusion to altered brain function.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:48 PM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

That latest Trump video
Man, that looks exactly like one of those TV promotions for weird products that old people fall for. Including the repeated brand-naming. Is that even legal?
I could write a thousand words about it, but I'm sure we all agree. The question is rather what to do or not do?
posted by mumimor at 3:48 PM on October 7, 2020 [9 favorites]

That latest Trump video has a super awful jump cut at 1:51, his right eye doesn't work, his cheek looks extra dark/bruised, and he's wearing a Death Becomes Her level of woodstain. Not to mention he says screw a vaccine, let's give Regeneron to everyone! If this "I'm doing well" video is meant to inspire confidence, he looks like he's ready to become a meal for scavengers.

That's the thing, right. All this "the President is fine, he's healthy as a horse, he could take on the world" has for decades been the SOP for US Presidents because it is soft power. But between the lying, and the ineptitude, the administration has been unable to make this lie believably. Any other administration would do dozens of takes, make up, the finest editors of video, and the product would be halfway believable and you'd also have no reason to really doubt them.

It's kind of surreal to watch the whole mysticism around the US President implode in real time thanks to this chucklefuck.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:52 PM on October 7, 2020 [17 favorites]

How often does he get tested ?
Here's a transcript from July 21 2020

The very first question and answer:

Q Mr. President, first, I just wanted to get a clarification. Your Press Secretary said today that you sometimes take more than one test a day. Why is that? And how often is that?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I didn’t know about more than one. I do take probably, on average, a test every two days, three days. And I don’t know of any time I’ve taken two tests in one day, but I could see that happening.
posted by yyz at 3:53 PM on October 7, 2020 [6 favorites]

He's squinting his right eye because the sun's on that side, and he's wearing six times his usual plastering of bronzer because he's been jonesing for his bronzer for days, so now he's on a bronzer bender. Perhaps he will collapse, but he could turn out to be fine. Berlusconi has turned out to be fine, and he's 84.
posted by Don Pepino at 3:55 PM on October 7, 2020 [18 favorites]

the repeated brand-naming. Is that even legal?

The sitting President is excluded from such laws.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:56 PM on October 7, 2020

the repeated brand-naming. Is that even legal?

I mean, last time it was Goya beans.

He says China going to pay for this. Is that the same way Mexico is paying for the wall?
posted by mochapickle at 4:05 PM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

He says China going to pay for this. Is that the same way Mexico is paying for the wall?

By that logic China is already paying for it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:10 PM on October 7, 2020

I think he's on the brink of just offering free healthcare to everyone, single payer, in one of these videos. If he keeps getting hopped up every day!
posted by rainy at 4:11 PM on October 7, 2020 [11 favorites]

That's when Pence invokes 25th...
posted by rainy at 4:12 PM on October 7, 2020 [7 favorites]

He still sounds super congested. Also, wouldn't he be squinting both eyes from the sun? Squinting just one eye is a conscious effort for me, but I often get one swollen eye from congestion. He's not healthy.
posted by Ruki at 4:15 PM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

CNN has some anonymous GOP official providing this soothing balm: "If we don't stop the bleeding tonight, the coming weeks may be very grim for the Republican Party."

Keep 'em bleeding!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:12 PM on October 7, 2020 [23 favorites]

He was belting out sentences like someone who has smoked for 40 years.

Trust me.
posted by Max Power at 5:25 PM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

Jennifer Jacobs again: The head of White House security office, Crede Bailey, is gravely ill with coronavirus and has been hospitalized since late September, I'm told. Security office handles credentialing for access to WH; works closely with Secret Service on security measures on the compound ... became sick with the coronavirus before the Sept. 26 Rose Garden event, I'm told.
posted by Dashy at 5:37 PM on October 7, 2020 [10 favorites]

hard to tell if he's having trouble breathing so long as he doesn't stop for a breath.
posted by 20 year lurk at 5:45 PM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]

“If you want to find out more about Regeneron and what it can do for you call now for our free pamphlet and remember, I’m not only the President, I’m also a client.”
posted by snofoam at 5:46 PM on October 7, 2020 [3 favorites]

USA Today: How's Melania? First lady 'feels well' and POTUS is feeling 'great!' She's not saying anything on Twitter but her chief of staff says the first lady is good.[...] much of the White House staff, including all of the East Wing staff, are working from home for the time being. WaPo: Despite White House outbreak, Trump and some aides return to work, flouting CDC guidance; Vice President Pence will hold an in-person campaign event at the Villages retirement community in central Florida on Saturday. The vice president’s trip to the nation’s largest community for people age 55 and older follows a week of travel that includes tonight’s debate and campaign events in Nevada and Arizona on Thursday. Via "What you need to know about tonight’s debate" email: The candidates have different styles and one has far more practice. Pence's image as a bland Trump defender doesn't match reality, and neither does Harris's online image as a knife-fighter. Harris hasn’t debated a Republican opponent in 10 years. Read our guide to how Pence and Harris debate. Can't, now too busy looking for knife-fighter Harris images online.

I wonder if Crede Bailey is the unnamed WH staffer, disclosed on Sept. 16 as having tested positive? Seven people on the presidential debate prep team (meeting in the WH Map room between September 26 and September 29) have tested positive; Giuliani, Kushner and Jason Miller are listed as tested negative; White House communications director Alyssa Farah, part of that team in some news articles, is listed as 'unknown' status elsewhere in the tracker.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:46 PM on October 7, 2020 [4 favorites]

Oh.

USA Today interactive entreaty, originally published 8:52 a.m. PDT Oct. 7, 2020, updated 2 hours ago:

Here's everyone at the White House Rose Garden SCOTUS event now called a likely 'superspreader.' Help us ID them all. USA TODAY is attempting to identify every person at the event using publicly available photographs of that day. If you know of someone who is not on our list, please fill out this form. We think we've identified the following people. The names in bold indicate those who have tested positive for coronavirus since the White House event. Seated on the left...
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:57 PM on October 7, 2020 [26 favorites]

You guys need to get a healthcare system

Sorry anything that requires most people to voluntarily cooperate is not possible in this country.
posted by ctmf at 6:23 PM on October 7, 2020 [16 favorites]

President Pence will hold an in-person campaign event at the Villages retirement community in central Florida on Saturday. The vice president’s trip to the nation’s largest community for people age 55 and older follows a week of travel that includes tonight’s debate and campaign events in Nevada and Arizona on Thursday.

You know, at this point, despite knowing decent people in Florida exist because I know some of them, I just feel like live by the sword, die by the sword. That anyone is allowing this to happen just...go ahead. Get what you deserve, you intellectually disenfranchised cretins.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 6:30 PM on October 7, 2020 [8 favorites]

>the repeated brand-naming. Is that even legal?

The sitting President is excluded from such laws.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94

This sitting president is excluded from all laws. Just ask him. Or Bill Barr. Or Repub senators. Or his cult base.
posted by Pouteria at 6:51 PM on October 7, 2020 [11 favorites]

You guys need to get a healthcare system

If Americans had a healthcare system they'd all quit their shitty jobs working for asshole bosses.
posted by srboisvert at 7:24 PM on October 7, 2020 [54 favorites]

posted by msbutah: That latest Trump video has a super awful jump cut at 1:51, his right eye doesn't work, his cheek looks extra dark/bruised, and he's wearing a Death Becomes Her level of woodstain.

Not only that, but about 3:11 - 3:15, you can see a giant white rock fly out of his nose. It's most visible against the jacket in trajectory. And you know he's enough of a narcisist that he watches these videos, can he not see how different in color his hands and his face are? This particular get up is almost blackface.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:00 PM on October 7, 2020 [5 favorites]

NPR is reporting that Trump cancelled a program that was key to the development of remdesivir, the "miracle drug" he's now taking and touting.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:48 PM on October 7, 2020 [11 favorites]

And he's wearing a Death Becomes Her level of woodstain

I believe the name of Trump's foundation is Burnt Umbrage.
posted by carmicha at 10:44 PM on October 7, 2020 [66 favorites]

Also, wouldn't he be squinting both eyes from the sun? Squinting just one eye is a conscious effort for me

I squint with one eye into the sun all the time, so I don't find that odd. Often I find that it's comfortable to either a) squint one eye nearly closed with the other mostly open or b) squint both eyes a medium amount. I have a good eye and a bad eye, so option a) works well for me.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:19 PM on October 7, 2020 [5 favorites]

If Americans had a healthcare system they'd all quit their shitty jobs working for asshole bosses.

Canadians have a healthcare system and no shortage of shitty jobs and asshole bosses. Healthcare is just one factor in economic uncertainty.
posted by Mitheral at 2:41 AM on October 8, 2020 [12 favorites]

In the $$$ biologics department:

Singapore Patient Plasma Used To Create Trump’s COVID-19 Antibody Cocktail

One of the two antibodies in the cocktail used to treat US president Donald Trump for COVID-19 was developed using blood samples from three patients in Singapore. REGN-COV2, a combination of two antibodies against the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, was developed by US-based biotechnology company Regeneron. Two papers describing preclinical studies of REGN-COV2 have been published in Science.

Regeneron asks FDA for emergency authorization of its Covid-19 antibody therapy given to Trump last week

Regeneron says it has applied to the US Food and Drug Administration for emergency use authorization for its experimental monoclonal antibody therapy, the same antibody cocktail given to President Donald Trump Friday after he was diagnosed with the virus.

The biotechnology company confirmed it had submitted the application for the authorization in a statement on its website Wednesday night.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:35 AM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

Regeneron!

You can pretty much hear the CEO's Executive assistant -
"Boy have we got a hit here, sir! This is it! This is a vacation house in Vail and holiday trips to Europe, when that becomes possible again, I mean. This is the cover of "Fortune." Boy howdy, did you hear the President? Is it possible to get a better endorsement than that? I don't think so. I don't think so at all. You did it sir! You brought the thing home, and how!"

That night, around 4am, the CEO wakes up. Not because he wants to, not because of some strange noise or movement in the room no he is just awake, but why? When he went to sleep earlier he felt great. It really was a moment of extraordinary success, he really had hit it out of the park. And the president and his family were only asking for 15%. No, he went to sleep like a well-fed baby. So why was he awake? What had ... he remembered it now, the feeling of it. It had slithered into his dreams like an anaconda. Trump. They had gotten involved with not simply the president, they had gotten into business with Trump and if there was one golden rule it was this - Trump ruins everything. Everything. CEO rolled over, that was bullshit. Trump Tower was a success. And the tv show. But jesus, what if he dies. He's overweight and over 70 and did you see him gasping in that video? Is that good press?
what. if. he. dies? A light, cold sweat enveloped CEO's body. Of course, it should never happen but it's going to... Oh god. I should resign. Now. I should resign right now...
posted by From Bklyn at 3:58 AM on October 8, 2020 [36 favorites]

While some have been musing that Trump might have been sick for well over a week and the hospitalization on Friday was from the "second hump," I'm skeptical of that claim. Trump would have been coughing and with fever in a way that would have been unmistakable. Even if they tried to hide it. Also, him getting sick last Wednesday would make sense with all the folks infected at that damn SC event.

The question I have is: Given that Trump has been feeling great because of cortisol steroids, how long do those last? I've heard that coming off of them usually means "feeling like death." As a follow up: if they wear off and Trump starts to feel worse and demands more dexamethasone, what would the effects be? Could he insist that they give him steroids continuously to prevent him from ever coming down and feeling that inflammation? My guess is "no" but I'd be interested in why.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 4:54 AM on October 8, 2020 [7 favorites]

John F. Kennedy was on corticosteroids for most of his adult life (from at least 1947, if not earlier), due to multiple serious health conditions. They can be used on an ongoing basis, but there are side effects and it's...not great.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 5:45 AM on October 8, 2020 [3 favorites]

If Americans had a healthcare system they'd all quit their shitty jobs working for asshole bosses.

Canadians have a healthcare system and no shortage of shitty jobs and asshole bosses. Healthcare is just one factor in economic uncertainty.

I'm a Canadian expat living in Chicago and I have to say every time I see one of these "Canada is no paradise" comments that have become so frequent recently I laugh. Entirely bitterly. It's like when beautiful people complain about how hard it is to be attractive.
posted by srboisvert at 6:49 AM on October 8, 2020 [57 favorites]

Carol E. Lee and Courtney Kube, NBCNews: Trump asked Walter Reed doctors to sign nondisclosure agreements in 2019

At least two Walter Reed doctors who refused to sign nondisclosure agreements last year were not permitted to be involved in Trump’s care.
...
During a surprise trip to Walter Reed on Nov. 16, 2019, Trump mandated signed NDAs from both physicians and nonmedical staff, most of whom are active-duty military service members

So on top of ethical duties, HIPAA, their special security clearance, and their military obligations, Trump demanded an NDA. Could be standard Trump paranoia, could be that the "surprise trip" last year was a lot more serious than a routine physical (that he never completed).
posted by jedicus at 7:24 AM on October 8, 2020 [27 favorites]

Late stage syphilis?
posted by mumimor at 7:26 AM on October 8, 2020 [8 favorites]

> If we don't stop the bleeding tonight, the coming weeks may be very grim for the Republican Party

I guess this was in reference to last night's debate? Who knows if this quote was just managing expectations or spin or whatever, but if you're pinning your hopes on the VP debate - which boasts "Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy" as its signature moment in history, and the guy who delivered that savage burn was on the side that lost 426-111 - to turn the tide, well...it's not optimal, is all I'm saying.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:32 AM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

The question I have is: Given that Trump has been feeling great because of cortisol steroids, how long do those last? I've heard that coming off of them usually means "feeling like death." As a follow up: if they wear off and Trump starts to feel worse and demands more dexamethasone, what would the effects be? Could he insist that they give him steroids continuously to prevent him from ever coming down and feeling that inflammation? My guess is "no" but I'd be interested in why.

I expect Trump to be propped up with whatever medical broomsticks are available until the election.

Obligation #1 is Keep His Ass Alive, and the doctors did what was necessary when he was crashing last week. Obligation #2 in Trump's eyes is Make Me Look Invincible, and where that does not conflict with #1, they will do their best. I am no doctor, and I do not know what the full effects of extending steroid therapy for a month would be, but as long as his mental instability is within Normal Trump Parameters and it's not setting him up for imminent medical calamity, they will likely try to fulfill his demands.
posted by delfin at 7:38 AM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

Trump has never wanted a vaccine or to contain the spread of the virus. It's simple really:
'An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.'
He doesn't want a vaccine because it's cheap. No profit margin. Treatments, on the other hand, have MUCH higher price tags, and much, MUCH more motivated buyers.
Even more than his tax returns, we really, really, need to take a look at his investments.
posted by sexyrobot at 7:48 AM on October 8, 2020 [11 favorites]

if you're pinning your hopes on the VP debate ... to turn the tide, well...it's not optimal

The tide has turned. Short of voter suppression and other fuckery, Trump is in massive trouble at this point from all indications. He won key states by slim margins in 2016. The biggest thing that Harris needed to do last night was to remind women voters of every time a rude, condescending man talked down to or over her and flip a 2016 Trump voter to Biden or just sitting this one out. And she did that, though in fairness, she had a lot of help from Pence. Chiseling away at the base a few thousand people at a time is worth it.

It took a while to get to unfortunately, but she also did a good job of delivering the message that Trump will destroy Obamacare and that a Biden presidency means protection for people with preexisting conditions and the 22-26 year olds that too often sit out of elections but are particularly in peril due to corona.
posted by Candleman at 7:48 AM on October 8, 2020 [5 favorites]

The question is how big the margin of an honest Democrat victory has to be to defeat a dirty Republican victory, overcoming everything from a crippled Postal Service to control of key points of the judiciary and the willingness to Chewbacca-defence egregious cheating (“we rule that the Democrat votes are invalid because (pages of content-free verbiage amounting to ‘there are no wookiees on Endor’)”)
posted by acb at 7:53 AM on October 8, 2020 [7 favorites]

Some Republicans Seem to Think This Isn’t Going to Go Their Way (Gail Collins, NYTimes)

Have you noticed that right now everything is about Amy Coney Barrett, the new Supreme Court nominee?

OK, you were thinking everything was about the coronavirus. But where did a lot of our alleged national leaders seem to get infected? The party Donald Trump gave to celebrate her nomination. Really, you might have been safer going to a midnight fraternity party in somebody’s basement.

When Trump decided he wanted to drop negotiations on a new coronavirus relief bill, he said the Senate needed to devote all its attention to Judge Barrett.

Now the economy could go to hell in a handbasket if Congress fails to act and there’s no more aid to the states, cities or faltering industries. If so, do we chalk it up to Amy? Not saying, obviously, that she planned to create mass unemployment. But there’s just something about the nomination that makes everything wacky. Or I guess the word should be wackier, given that we’re starting out with a president who claims it was his duty to get Covid-19. (“I stood out front and I led.”)

posted by mumimor at 7:59 AM on October 8, 2020 [3 favorites]

Even more than his tax returns, we really, really, need to take a look at his investments.

According to those tax returns, he sold virtually all of his stock holdings. He could have invested in drug/mask/ventilator/etc companies since then, and there could be other ways in which he is invested in those companies (e.g. the Trump Org, his children), but I suspect his finances have continued to be on a downward trajectory, especially this year. I doubt he's had the cash to get into the market in a meaningful way.
posted by jedicus at 9:03 AM on October 8, 2020

Medical equipment and drug companies are not good investments if you’re looking to launder money as a primary activity. Golf courses are a better choice.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:22 AM on October 8, 2020 [15 favorites]

...but as long as his mental instability is within Normal Trump Parameters and it's not setting him up for imminent medical calamity, they will likely try to fulfill his demands.

Which may be difficult considering that during the video address last night he was off his tits.
posted by fullerine at 9:26 AM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

Also, wouldn't he be squinting both eyes from the sun?
Not after Trump dominated the sun during the solar eclipse: just stared it down, he did!
posted by carmicha at 9:32 AM on October 8, 2020 [6 favorites]

I'm a Canadian expat living in Chicago and I have to say every time I see one of these "Canada is no paradise" comments that have become so frequent recently I laugh. Entirely bitterly. It's like when beautiful people complain about how hard it is to be attractive.

I'm a US expat living in Canada. It can simultaneously be true that "Canada is no paradise" and that much of the US is significantly worse off. Coronavirus-wise, there are some places in the US that are in better shape than some places in Canada, although overall the opposite is true and the average differences are stark. Racist police violence occurs in both locations, although Canadian police lag behind the US by a decade or so in extent of militarization, but then again they are trending in the same direction. Provincial health insurance is far better than the US system, it's true, despite lack of dental care, coverage for eye care, or mental health services in most provinces. On the other hand, there's no national school lunch or breakfast programs in the Canada. University is significantly cheaper in Canada, but increasing at 2-4% per year and there is no federal student assistance program (although the Pell Grant and student loan programs in the US have been significantly weakened). The Canadian political and social trends toward preserving the status quo protect against Trumpism to a significant degree, but also prevent some positive changes. In conclusion, Canada is a land of contrasts, while much of the US is a dumpster fire. Put another way: parts of both countries are a more literal wildlands fire, though much more extensively in the US at present and Canadians displaced by fire at least get a little help from their government.
posted by eviemath at 9:42 AM on October 8, 2020 [14 favorites]

On the other hand, there's no national school lunch or breakfast programs in the Canada.

When I went to school (officially a Long Time Ago now), if a kid showed up without lunch or breakfast a few days in a row you got a visit from someone to see what was going wrong in the household to cause the food insecurity.

the US approach of using school lunches to address general welfare problems was always weird to me. What the hell did the kids eat for supper?
posted by benzenedream at 10:18 AM on October 8, 2020 [14 favorites]

With less than one month until the election, President Donald Trump is calling for his attorney general to indict his challenger, former Vice President Joe Biden, for the "greatest political crime in the history of our country."

Vote him out. Please.
posted by clawsoon at 10:33 AM on October 8, 2020 [13 favorites]

the US approach of using school lunches to address general welfare problems was always weird to me. What the hell did the kids eat for supper?

For some children, school breakfast/lunch might be all they eat that day.
posted by Fleebnork at 10:40 AM on October 8, 2020 [11 favorites]

With less than one month until the election, President Donald Trump is calling for his attorney general to indict his challenger, former Vice President Joe Biden, for the "greatest political crime in the history of our country."

For me this is the cherry on top of the evidence Trump self-consciously and with malice aforethought attempted to give Biden the virus in the first debate, because Trump ALWAYS accuses his opponents of exactly whatever he is trying to get away with at the moment.
posted by jamjam at 11:02 AM on October 8, 2020 [9 favorites]

What the hell did the kids eat for supper?

A lot of schools in underserved districts now send kids home with food. Sometimes it's every weekday, sometimes it's only on the weekend. This is one reason the schools closing here during the pandemic has been especially troubling for families who experience food insecurity.
posted by cooker girl at 11:08 AM on October 8, 2020 [13 favorites]

Biden again tests negative.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:21 AM on October 8, 2020 [34 favorites]

What the hell did the kids eat for supper?

Sometimes nothing. Kids in families that fall through the cracks (for whatever reason) often don't eat at home. That's one of the great things about no charge, everyone gets it, school lunch programs; regardless of whatever is happening the kid is getting at least one meal a day.

My kids school in Canada offered lunches for pay and offered subsidized/free lunches on a need basis. But I'd much rather they just fed everyone and increased our taxes. School lunch when we bought it was only a few bucks a day; the cost would be even less if their wasn't any book keeping.

School lunch programs are a great way to provide some depth to social safety nets that I wish we would normalize in Canada. I'd bet the over all costs would be minimal if we looked at things like educational outcomes and possibly even crime reduction.
posted by Mitheral at 11:23 AM on October 8, 2020 [10 favorites]

Could be standard Trump paranoia, could be that the "surprise trip" last year was a lot more serious than a routine physical (that he never completed).

The November 2019 trip is the same trip that Trump bragged about over-performing on the MoCA test. I have one parent whose had a stroke and one with dementia, and I've seen that test administered a few times. I can see why he required his medical team to sign an NDA if they were giving it to him.
posted by gladly at 11:25 AM on October 8, 2020 [6 favorites]

dances_with_sneetches: Biden again tests negative.

If When he tests negative on October 13th, I'll breathe easier.
posted by tzikeh at 11:25 AM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

Speaking of off-his-tits videos, there's a new one out.

Now I'm no forensic video expert, but that background looks fake.
posted by emjaybee at 11:27 AM on October 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

I "love" how everyone is normalizing the fact that thousands of kids are not getting food other than that provided by schools. I guess it's better than in Yemen or Syria. But this is the richest country in the world. I'm a big supporter of free school meals, for a number of reasons. But starving children shouldn't be one of them ever in a rich western country.

(My kids always wanted lunch boxes, and I put love over principles in my actual practice. So there's another layer)
posted by mumimor at 11:34 AM on October 8, 2020 [5 favorites]

Hungry kids are a horrific problem but maybe the discussion belongs in the American collapse thread.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:36 AM on October 8, 2020 [15 favorites]

No one is normalizing anything. Merely stating facts.
posted by cooker girl at 11:37 AM on October 8, 2020 [12 favorites]

Speaking of off-his-tits videos, there's a new one out.

Free medicine for seniors huh? I'll believe that when I see it. And I notice he never mentions what this amazing medicine he's touting is.

Now I'm no forensic video expert, but that background looks fake.

Definitely not my area of expertise either. At first it looked to me like it could have just been filmed with shallow depth of field. But the longer it went on, it did seem to have some similar effects around the edges of Trump's head and such that look familiar from other computer-generated videoconferencing backgrounds, and it was a very static background for being outdoors.
posted by eviemath at 11:44 AM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

Someone in the comments points out how static the trees in the background look. But DC weather now, winds 12 mph. His image sure looks pasted in to me.
posted by Rash at 11:57 AM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

That video is just bonkers! And what’s up with his hands in it?! Why don’t the fingers move? The whole thing looks uncanny valley and animatronic. And then what he’s saying.
posted by iamkimiam at 12:02 PM on October 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

I’d love to hear from a linguist who has expertise in gesture and speech coordination. It’s very weird.
posted by iamkimiam at 12:03 PM on October 8, 2020

That video leaves me longing for the coherent eloquence and poetic wit of a Palin or a Dubya.

But it had enough to match a phone scam or a phishing email, and we've seen that those are most effective on the exact same audience he was targeting, i.e. elderly people who are too "vulnerable" to recognize their vulnerability.

Come to think of it, I think the Trump campaign is now simply trying to emulate the virus in every way it possibly can.
posted by armeowda at 12:08 PM on October 8, 2020 [7 favorites]

I love the idea that the Trump campaign could have created a fake Trump. But, they are generally inept. And they are all down with the corona. He is on powerful drugs and he is desperate. That's enough.
posted by mumimor at 12:10 PM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

Upon close inspection of the video (and carefully ignoring the creep standing front and center) I can see motion in the foliage in the upper right. It's not a still photo.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:13 PM on October 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

Upon close inspection of the video (and carefully ignoring the creep standing front and center) I can see motion in the foliage in the upper right. It's not a still photo.

It's obviously not a still photo. But it could still be Trump in front of a green screen. (The background *kinda* looks like a loop but I dunno)
posted by RustyBrooks at 12:15 PM on October 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

Come to think of it, I think the Trump campaign is now simply trying to emulate the virus in every way it possibly can.

This Snow Crash thing - is it a virus, a drug, or a religion?
posted by JohnFromGR at 12:18 PM on October 8, 2020 [19 favorites]

(The background *kinda* looks like a loop but I dunno)

I thought I noticed a couple of weird jumps, but I didn't say anything because I didn't want to be accused of being a conspiracy theorist.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:18 PM on October 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

Honestly, I don't know if that's how the guy usually moves and speaks or not, but that video is weird as hell. The Chuck-E-Cheese animatronic way that he's "moving," the way it looks like someone cut out a picture of Trump from a magazine and pasted it onto another background picture...

Occam's razor says that the doctors managed to save his sorry ass. And that these Proof of Life videos are terrible because he has no taste.

But super uncanny anyhow.

It wouldn't surprise me if this is a tweaked and re-dubbed old video or something. There's something very off. Although I don't know what the point of that would be, because Trump called in to Fox and sounded basically normal, so I guess he's doing OK now (despite all my highest hopes).
posted by rue72 at 12:49 PM on October 8, 2020 [5 favorites]

The newest is really, really funny. Not good for the country. But reader, I laughed and laughed, and that’s much better than just hating the sound of his voice.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:56 PM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

I cannot laugh and hear his voice. His every expiration has the elements of helium and sulfur. Perhaps on another planet he would be a silicon-based life form, his acid carving out tunnels for miners.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:01 PM on October 8, 2020 [17 favorites]

He just seems so obviously high and on an exuberant tear. “You’re not vulnerable, but they like to say you’re vulnerable, but you’re the least vulnerable, but for this one thing, *head twitch, pause* you are vulnerable” is just comic gold and I won’t hear otherwise.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:06 PM on October 8, 2020 [6 favorites]

y'all all see him looking relatively normal?

all i can see is a pulsating omniform horror with artificial eyes, metal teeth and a robotic arm shrieking and ululating in some ancient tongue from a time before consonants, and i wish i hadn't studied the party doctrine so religiously nor eaten the last scrap of chew-z.

seriously, though: wanting to see him gasp unavailing for air is not sufficient reason to offer him my ears and optic nerves this late in the campaign. no free rides, brain parasite!
posted by 20 year lurk at 1:07 PM on October 8, 2020 [23 favorites]

It looks strange to me mainly because he's all alone - there are no people standing uncomfortably around him trying to hide their secret horror. (I personally see a loop. Watch the trees and shadows on the left upper corner.)
posted by kitcat at 1:11 PM on October 8, 2020

Is his breathing unusual at all? I can't tell.
posted by ipsative at 1:12 PM on October 8, 2020

Real video. (Come on - like the Trump campaign could pull of something like this? Seriously? )

He does remind me of an acquaintance who had a manic episode (that led to a diagnosis and a happy ending to an otherwise pretty unhappy story.) and I wonder what the hell Trump and his doctors are going to do when he comes down...

I gotta say, the sensation that things are out of control is really, really unsettling.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:15 PM on October 8, 2020 [5 favorites]

NYT: McConnell says he has been avoiding the White House for months because of the lack of virus precautions.

C'mon, Don, tell Mitch what a coward he is.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:17 PM on October 8, 2020 [21 favorites]

The background is definitely looping. I can see it in the upper right with the trees against the building.
posted by CoffeeHikeNapWine at 1:18 PM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

It was filmed in front of a green screen.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:20 PM on October 8, 2020 [5 favorites]

I didn't say anything because I didn't want to be accused of being a conspiracy theorist.

First they came for the conspiracists, and I did not speak out—because I was in on it.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:20 PM on October 8, 2020 [32 favorites]

NYT: McConnell says he has been avoiding the White House for months because of the lack of virus precautions.

something something rats ships.
posted by mumimor at 1:26 PM on October 8, 2020 [6 favorites]

Pence cancelled a trip to Indiana--he had been planning to travel there to vote early.
posted by Emera Gratia at 1:53 PM on October 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

What, is he afraid to... fly?
posted by bink at 1:57 PM on October 8, 2020 [35 favorites]

The new video is like a 2-minute infomercial for his administration’s pandemic response, but he has no idea what to say. He could hire a random person from QVC, give them five minutes to prep, and they would be more convincing.
posted by snofoam at 2:03 PM on October 8, 2020

Motorized heavier-than-air flight began in 1903, a time way beyond Pence's comfort zone.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:03 PM on October 8, 2020 [6 favorites]

Twitter theories on Pence:

-Trump is doing worse/could trigger the 25th, Pence needs to be nearby
-Pence is doing worse, needs to not be in public

Of course, could be both! Or neither, though it's hard to think of another reason for the sudden change when the campaign was gung-ho on rallies and events till then.
posted by emjaybee at 2:04 PM on October 8, 2020 [5 favorites]

Pelosi questions Trump's mental state and says Congress will discuss rules for removal
House speaker says Democrats will consider constitution’s 25th amendment as president faces ‘disassociation from reality’
posted by roolya_boolya at 2:09 PM on October 8, 2020 [22 favorites]

Trump is off his bloody rocker. I am sure someone explained how corticosteroids work to him and what he is likely to feel and I am sure he immediately blew them off because he feels better than he has in 20 years.

Both of the recent videos look fake/heavily edited to me, but it could simply be that I have never seen a video of a world leader with the focus exclusively on them and the entire background a thick Gaussian blur. It is a weird effect that I am sure is meant to communicate Trump's singular importance but instead adds to the general feeling of unreality his completely bananas monologues create.

Tangential, but the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists (you might remember them from such existential meditations as the Doomsday Clock) released this a few days ago:

Trump’s COVID infection shows why it’s time to retire the nuclear football

It is worth reading. I have been quietly worrying for some time now that when Trump crashes, especially if it results in a rapid decline, he will be tempted to launch nukes. If his health reaches a point where he cannot deny his mortality to himself, I believe he will try.
posted by Lonnrot at 2:25 PM on October 8, 2020 [13 favorites]

Dr Mike Hansen, M.D.: The Long Term Effects of COVID-19 (“Long-Haulers”)
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 2:28 PM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

He should taper off glucocorticoids. They suppress natural corticosteroid production and if he goes cold turkey, he could go into hypoglycemic shock. I'm sure his doctors know this, but then again dexamethasone is supposed to be reserved for patients with mechanical ventilation.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:30 PM on October 8, 2020

My understanding is that a taper is not needed for a short 5 day course of steroids. I haven't tapered since I was a teen. Tapering is a concern for long term use.
posted by muddgirl at 2:35 PM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

How the 25th Amendment would work:

* Pence and a majority of the 15 members of the Cabinet (none of whom are Democrats) must declare that Trump is incapacitated and send that to McConnell and Pelosi. This makes Pence Acting President.
* Trump can submit in writing "No, I'm not" to McConnell and Pence. This starts a four-day timer on Pence's Active President status, unless Pence & Co. submit a second "yes, he is" letter.
* If that second "yes, he is" letter is sent, Congress convenes. This starts a 21-day timer during which both houses of Congress must declare, by a 2/3 vote in each house, that Yes, He Is Incapacitated. If that happens, Pence becomes President from that point on. If that does not, Trump resumes his Presidency.

So I have no idea what it is that Pelosi thinks that she and the Democrats need to discuss amongst themselves. They cannot decide to invoke the 25th, there are several steps before Congress would even become involved, and in the extraordinarily unlikely event that the Cabinet would take those steps, all the Senate has to do is go "Nuh-uh" and Trump remains.

And even if someone hits Mitch and the rest of the Senate GOP with a Reverso Ray and they vote to remove -- and keep in mind that they preferred to play with fidget spinners rather than to even entertain _arguments to listen to_ evidence or testimony that Trump was unfit for office -- we are left with President Pence for the duration. Which is a lateral move, if anything.

Institutions will not save us.
posted by delfin at 2:36 PM on October 8, 2020 [11 favorites]

Ok that's not quite true I may have had a tapered short course in around 2006-2008 time period but not since then.
posted by muddgirl at 2:36 PM on October 8, 2020

...so Pelosi is clearly bringing it up to put it on media radar rather than to actually launch some sort of legal maneuver.
posted by dragstroke at 2:41 PM on October 8, 2020 [14 favorites]

Looking at that video...
I don't think the Dems should accept as genuine any presidential directives or whatever it is he does, unless unless they've seen Trump in person, breathing.
posted by glasseyes at 2:44 PM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

As soon as Trump got the corticosteroids you know he ordered the docs to keep giving them "just until the election".
posted by benzenedream at 2:46 PM on October 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

So I have no idea what it is that Pelosi thinks that she and the Democrats need to discuss amongst themselves.

"If we bring this up it will really fuck with his head."
posted by kirkaracha at 2:47 PM on October 8, 2020 [26 favorites]

Can you imagine trying to be the staffer assigned to attend his crunk ass right now?

"Sir, can the doctor please come see you today? He's been asking to come in and examine you since Tuesday. He needs to check your vitals and they want to discuss discontinuing the cortico-"

"Get over here I can't move my arms I need to do another one and I wanna do the next one outside it's gotta be outside. Outside. OUTSIDE! C'mon, gotta get the spackle on, I wanna get out there in time so the light's on me full blast so I look BEACHYKEEEEEEEEEN getamoveon, goddammit, go go go go go go go! OUTSIIIIIIDE!"

"Out...side? ...where?"

"Just... Fuck! OUTSIDE! I dunno, maybe on the LAAAWN, dumbass! Outside! White columns, green grass, ship of state! Jesus fucking Christ! OUTSIDE!"
posted by Don Pepino at 2:48 PM on October 8, 2020 [10 favorites]

...so Pelosi is clearly bringing it up to put it on media radar

Yes, this is a "don't you think he looks tired" play.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 2:50 PM on October 8, 2020 [21 favorites]

So I have no idea what it is that Pelosi thinks that she and the Democrats need to discuss amongst themselves.

The 25th says, "Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide [...] their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office."

My reading is, Pelosi is creating a body for the second half of that "or", to give Mike Pence the opportunity to submit that declaration and make it very easy for him.

I will admit there's a layer or two to the politics of that they I don't quite grasp, but the idea may be to give Pence the opportunity to take a win-win: he gets to disavow Trump and make a clean break after the election instead of being forced out by scandal, and the Democrats get Trump out of office and get the opportunity to do some pretty high-leverage negotiation.
posted by LSK at 2:51 PM on October 8, 2020 [3 favorites]

Oh well I've just been schooled by Buzzfeed, of all news sources. Time to switch off from this madness
posted by glasseyes at 2:54 PM on October 8, 2020 [3 favorites]

Crooks and Liars: Trump's Covid-19 Treatment Would Cost Regular Folks $100K

"The median charge for a coronavirus hospitalization for a patient over 60 is $61,912, according to a claims database, FAIR Health," the Times reported, and pointed to data finding a $38,770 median charge for an air ambulance.

Many, but not all, health insurers have said they will not apply co-payments or deductibles to patients' coronavirus hospital stays, which could help shield patients from large bills.

Uninsured patients, however, could be stuck with the entire hospital charges and not receive any discounts.

posted by tzikeh at 2:54 PM on October 8, 2020 [5 favorites]

My reading is, Pelosi is creating a body for the second half of that "or", to give Mike Pence the opportunity to submit that declaration and make it very easy for him.

The phrase also states "as Congress may by law provide." Which means both houses. Good luck getting the Turtle on board.

This is pure theater.
posted by delfin at 2:57 PM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

This is pure theater.

Yeah, but it's our theater. Only through the mind-boggling failure to protect its own people on the Trump administration's part could Dems wrest away even a little control of the narrative. That's depressing, but it doesn't mean we're not going to make hay while the sun shines.
posted by tzikeh at 3:00 PM on October 8, 2020 [25 favorites]

Speaking as somebody who's had a little experience with chroma keying and a lot of experience with video, this doesn’t look like a greenscreen to me and the background is definitely not looped. It looks like a fairly normal clip, shot with a medium-long lens, probably with little-to-no fill lighting, and compressed somewhat poorly.

Looping:
No. The shadows on the White House are clearly moving over the course of the clip at a normal, steady pace. The little jumps you see are an artifact of lower-quality video compression, using intra-coded frames (I-frames) with an interval of about 3 seconds. You can see this on Trump too; it’s not just the background.

Greenscreen:
Doubtful. The lighting on Trump is pretty consistent with sunlight, and if it's not sunlight they’ve got a fairly sophisticated lighting setup in a pretty big studio space. They certainly could have shot him in front of a greenscreen outside to achieve realistic lighting, but what would be the point of that vs. actually shooting him on the lawn?

I’m in no way commenting on the President’s health and the degree to which information about it is being manipulated. I am saying this video of him does not appear to be manipulated.

[on preview I see others have already pointed these things out]
posted by theory at 3:07 PM on October 8, 2020 [19 favorites]

I'll put $2 on Pence is positive, sick, and Pelosi knows. Takers?
posted by Dashy at 3:12 PM on October 8, 2020 [11 favorites]

Traditionally, the procedure is that you make a statement like that, and promise to eat your words if you're mistaken. Which you then do (if you are) by baking a delicous cake and writing your statement on it. Then you eat the cake.

You're either right, or you get to eat cake. Everyone's a winner.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:16 PM on October 8, 2020 [24 favorites]

Motorized heavier-than-air flight began in 1903, a time way beyond Pence's comfort zone.

The navy has blimps.
posted by Mitheral at 3:17 PM on October 8, 2020

Aw geez, I wish Metafilter had a blimp.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 3:27 PM on October 8, 2020 [25 favorites]

I swear by cake.
posted by Dashy at 3:28 PM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

I wish Metafilter had a blimp.

I wish we all had blimps, because then we'd be in another timeline (blimps, as we know from TV, are the clearest sign you're in an alternate timeline) and it'd probably be better than this one.
posted by thefoxgod at 3:29 PM on October 8, 2020 [24 favorites]

thefoxgod: I wish we all had blimps, because then we'd be in another timeline (blimps, as we know from TV, are the clearest sign you're in an alternate timeline) and it'd probably be better than this one.

Do you want John Lumic's Cybermen? Because that's how you get John Lumic's Cybermen.
posted by tzikeh at 3:35 PM on October 8, 2020 [13 favorites]

Don Pepino, thank you for that blessed vision of an alternate universe with President Hunter S. Thompson. Somewhere in the vastness of the multiverse is a reality where things are okay!
posted by Lonnrot at 3:53 PM on October 8, 2020 [6 favorites]

I'm sorry if someone already mentioned this - but Pence's trip to Indiana was probably postponed because Indiana is currently experiencing a spike in cases. I'm in Chicago and I'm hearing warnings not to travel there.
posted by marimeko at 4:11 PM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

(I'm not suggesting Pence doesn't have Coronavirus btw. I think it's very likely that he's infected. I just don't think that would stop him from traveling).
posted by marimeko at 4:25 PM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

Indiana is being stupid about covid BUT I also don't think that would stop Pence from visiting. It's not like he's followed the recommendations at any point during this pandemic. It may legitimately be that there was a scheduling issue like the press says. OR it could be that Pelosi is rattling the 25th cage. (Indiana is being stupid though and is going to be on several "hey, don't go there" lists if it's not already.)
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 4:25 PM on October 8, 2020 [3 favorites]

Deadline posted a story that Pence has tested positive for covid-19, then pulled it down and said that they hadn't meant to publish it. They didn't actually say it wasn't true, only that they weren't supposed to put it out there.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a mistake and Pence is fine, and I wouldn't be surprised if Pence has covid. You can't trust anything out of any of these people.
posted by Justinian at 4:30 PM on October 8, 2020 [9 favorites]

When I search “Pence COVID,” the Deadline article shows up with the title prefaced by “PREP. DO NOT PUBLISH UNTIL THE NEWS CROSSES.” The article itself is a 404 page. Any idea what that phrasing could mean?
posted by brook horse at 4:37 PM on October 8, 2020

That was pretty clearly a "just in case" article, like the pre-written obituaries newspapers will write for aging or sick celebrities. For one, it mentioned "Wednesday" in some areas and "Thursday" in others as if it'd been sloppily and incompletely updated from day to day.

Still funny though... the fact it was published, *and* tweeted, both with the "DON'T PUBLISH" warning. Someone's getting fired.
posted by Roommate at 4:37 PM on October 8, 2020 [15 favorites]

So on top of ethical duties, HIPAA, their special security clearance, and their military obligations, Trump demanded an NDA.

A special security clearance IS an NDA. So at worst, it was redundant to ask for another one. All he really had to do was declare his medical info SCI, not to be shared with anyone not on the access list. That would even give him criminal prosecution power for violations, not just a civil liability threat.
posted by ctmf at 4:45 PM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

Trump will pull out of the debate.

Individual 1 refuses to participate in virtual debate on Oct. 15: ‘I’m not going to waste my time’
posted by RuvaBlue at 4:58 PM on October 8, 2020 [3 favorites]

If Trump chickens out of the next debate, should they get out the empty chair?
posted by TedW at 5:15 PM on October 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

It was dumb when Clint Eastwood did it, it'd be just as dumb if Biden did it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:25 PM on October 8, 2020 [8 favorites]

What if Biden just sat down?

Washington Post: During today's phone interview with Fox Business Network’s Maria Bartiromo, Trump suggests coronavirus infection came from interaction with Gold Star families on Sept. 27. In the current version of this story, no one's manhandling Hope Hicks (where is she, btw? if she grew tired of being the scapegoat and flipped, that would be a cake-worthy development); it's Trump and Mrs. Trump bearing up under unwelcome attention:

[H]e recalled how each family came up to him and first lady Melania Trump at the White House and shared stories about the service members they lost.“They tell me these stories, and I can’t say, ‘Back up, stand 10 feet, I just can’t do it,’ ” Trump said. “And I went through like 35 people and everyone had a different story.” Trump said the families were talking about loved ones they lost in Iraq and Afghanistan and in certain instances came “within an inch of my face.”
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:27 PM on October 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

ABC News will host a town hall with Joe Biden in Philadelphia and moderated by George Stephanopoulos on October 15th, which was to be the night of the second presidential debate.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 5:28 PM on October 8, 2020 [35 favorites]

>So on top of ethical duties, HIPAA, their special security clearance, and their military obligations, Trump demanded an NDA.

>A special security clearance IS an NDA. So at worst, it was redundant to ask for another one.

Not necessarily. You don't know what kind of NDA Trump was requiring. A security clearance NDA allows for prosecution under federal law if violated. But Trump has required some staff to sign NDAs beholding to the Trump Organization and Trump himself threatening million dollar lawsuits. This would not be an appropriate requirement for a military physician or any government staff for that matter. But Trump does it anyway. Any physician with integrity would not sign such an NDA.
posted by JackFlash at 5:35 PM on October 8, 2020 [9 favorites]

ABC News will host a town hall with Joe Biden in Philadelphia and moderated by George Stephanopoulos on October 15th, which was to be the night of the second presidential debate.

Out. Freaking. Standing!

The nation is spared another lie-fest from a corrupt, authoritarian, malignant narcissist Trump, and instead Biden gets a free hour-long advertisement on CNN, right in the heart of early-voting season.

Win-win!
posted by darkstar at 5:45 PM on October 8, 2020 [40 favorites]

Wow. He's blaming the Gold Star families. How many bullets are in that gun he keeps firing at his feet? You'd think he'd have had to reload by now.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 5:51 PM on October 8, 2020 [13 favorites]

Hey, I think that weird DOJ thing expected yesterday turned into today's FBI Foils Plot to Kidnap Michigan's Gov. Whitmer (justice.gov press release; borrowed headline from elsewhere). WaPo summary: Federal and state officials revealed Thursday that they had thwarted a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, unsealing charges against 13 people who they say were involved in various plans to attack law enforcement, overthrow the government and ignite a civil war.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:53 PM on October 8, 2020 [7 favorites]

darkstar: The nation is spared another lie-fest from a corrupt, authoritarian, malignant narcissist Trump, and instead Biden gets a free hour-long advertisement on CNN, right in the heart of early-voting season.

Oh, don't think for a second that Donny won't be ranting on FOX, same night, same time, and networks that are not ABC may play seconds--whatever the news, bad, terrible, or catastrophic, Trump has always been good for ratings.
posted by tzikeh at 5:58 PM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

WH put out a statement today from Conley stating that since Mad King is in his 10th day since diagnosis, he's all better now.

10 days ago was .... oops.

And by most disease timelines, the second week is the dangerous one.
posted by Dashy at 6:02 PM on October 8, 2020 [11 favorites]

Sure, Trump will be ranting. But who's going to be listening to his rants besides his base? Meanwhile, undecided voters (both of them!) get a chance to hear what Biden's about, from Biden himself, without interruptions.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 6:09 PM on October 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

My understanding is that a taper is not needed for a short 5 day course of steroids. I haven't tapered since I was a teen. Tapering is a concern for long term use.

My own experience with dexamethasone was a huge dose tapering off over a week or ten days. Sorry I can’t be more specific; this was a quarter-century-plus ago.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:13 PM on October 8, 2020

NPR story: https://www.npr.org/sections/latest-updates-trump-covid-19-results/2020/10/08/921924919/trump-has-completed-covid-19-treatment-course-white-house-physician-says

It says this coming Saturday will be ten days since diagnosis which puts it at the Wednesday after the debate. Still, in my opinion, utterly unbelievable for someone supposedly getting tested regularly. But not actually saying he was diagnosed before the debate.
posted by R343L at 6:21 PM on October 8, 2020 [2 favorites]

Wouldn't that mean he was diagnosed before the Wednesday fundraiser he attended, though?
posted by saturday_morning at 6:24 PM on October 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

Yeah probably? But it seems to be this is all very bad lying since either he wasn’t being tested regularly as claimed or he tested positive earlier and they kept it quiet because it just doesn’t make sense otherwise. And that they are clearly lying and not doing contact tracing is just so mindbogglingly irresponsible I just can’t even. SIGH. But I suspect politically folks care more about the “deliberately exposed poltical opponents” possible story more than “exposed rich donors” story.
posted by R343L at 6:27 PM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

A special security clearance IS an NDA. So at worst, it was redundant to ask for another one. All he really had to do was declare his medical info SCI, not to be shared with anyone not on the access list. That would even give him criminal prosecution power for violations, not just a civil liability threat.

Security clearances can be penetrated by the new administration; personal NDAs not so much.

Personally I'd like to see law that makes it illegal for the president and cabinet to be parties to an NDA. It wouldn't have stopped the Cheeto of course but they'd be invalid on there face.

recalled how each family came up to him and first lady Melania Trump at the White House and shared stories about the service members they lost.“They tell me these stories, and I can’t say, ‘Back up, stand 10 feet, I just can’t do it,’ ” Trump said. “And I went through like 35 people and everyone had a different story.” Trump said the families were talking about loved ones they lost in Iraq and Afghanistan and in certain instances came “within an inch of my face.”

So Trumps claim is some melding of "the SS can't protect me" and "it was more important that I stroke my ego than 'take personal responsibility' to follow the recommendations of my own government".

Hope one of these Gold Star props doesn't spit on him when he "lets them" get to close.
posted by Mitheral at 6:29 PM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

COVID-19 at the White House tracker with 327 contacts, 36 identified positive.

White House coronavirus outbreak may have exposed thousands from Atlanta to Minnesota (USA Today, Oct. 8, 2020) From a religious summit outside Atlanta to a campaign rally at a Pennsylvania airport and a private fundraiser in Minnesota, Trump, his aides and political allies attended events with thousands of people, often without masks and little regard for social distancing.[...] At least 6,000 people attended meetings, rallies and other gatherings with them within a week of the Supreme Court nomination ceremony Sept. 26 in the White House Rose Garden, pegged as a potential “superspreader” event.

The WH fallout is a nation-wide situation, and the southern-city-to-midwestern-state phrasing in the headline is odd to me on a few levels, but USA Today knows its readers best.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:31 PM on October 8, 2020 [9 favorites]

A necessarily distant but thoughtful thread on Trump's health by the Chair of the UCSF Dept of Medicine.
posted by PhineasGage at 6:33 PM on October 8, 2020 [9 favorites]

White House coronavirus outbreak may have exposed thousands from Atlanta to Minnesota (USA Today, Oct. 8, 2020)

Couple of days ago I picked up Nothing is Wrong and Here is Why, a book of essays by MeFi favourite Alexandra Petri. In the introduction she writes,

Generations of parents once told their children not to be afraid to go to school — “What is the worst thing that could happen?” Now they see the possibilities. Now we see them everywhere! Things we never thought could happen at places of worship, at concerts, at shopping malls, at movie theaters, at schools, at schools, at offices, at places of worship, at schools, in parking lots, at places of worship — they happen and keep happening. Perhaps it once seemed unthinkable that people would fail to take action if such things did indeed occur — but that is the glory of the present time! People are doing the unthinkable every day!

I mean, if for no other reason than the lead time to publication, I think she’s talking about being shot to death, not being infected with a potentially deadly virus, but it is 2020 so we have to entertain multiple possibilities.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:12 PM on October 8, 2020 [7 favorites]

A necessarily distant but thoughtful thread on Trump's health by the Chair of the UCSF Dept of Medicine.

I like this part:

14/ He calls it a “miracle cure.” This, of course, illustrates his (mis)understanding of science. Previous Trumpian “miracles,” you’ll recall, included hydroxychloroquine (proven ineffective), convalescent plasma (jury is out), bleach ( ), & the virus itself, just going away.

A much more eloquent way of putting what I've been thinking for the past couple of days – let's not take medical advice from someone who was advocating drinking bleach a couple of months ago.
posted by Crane Shot at 7:24 PM on October 8, 2020 [6 favorites]

ABC News will host a town hall with Joe Biden in Philadelphia and moderated by George Stephanopoulos on October 15th, which was to be the night of the second presidential debate.

They should set up an empty chair or podium, and Biden should avoid speaking Trump's name the entire time, instead pointing at the empty podium and saying "that guy".
posted by mmoncur at 7:31 PM on October 8, 2020

They should set up an empty chair or podium, and Biden should avoid speaking Trump's name the entire time, instead pointing at the empty podium and saying "that guy".

Isn't there some old bit of political advice that goes something like, "if your opponent is self-destructing, don't interrupt him"? No need for cheap theatrics, he's got this.
posted by Crane Shot at 7:36 PM on October 8, 2020 [26 favorites]

“Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.” ― Napoleon Bonaparte.
posted by mikelieman at 7:40 PM on October 8, 2020 [29 favorites]

I think she’s talking about being shot to death, not being infected with a potentially deadly virus, but it is 2020 so we have to entertain multiple possibilities.

As a parent of a third grader, not having to worry about school shootings is one of the few positives of the pandemic.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:13 PM on October 8, 2020 [12 favorites]

> They should set up an empty chair or podium, and Biden should avoid speaking Trump's name the entire time, instead pointing at the empty podium and saying "that guy".

Sure, maybe Clint Eastwood can lend him the chair.
posted by Syllepsis at 8:32 PM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

His April musings concerned injecting disinfectant, not "drinking bleach," and since America's low on syringes anyway... really, how could he have predicted the way people would interpret his reliably sage wisdom? Those FDA hand sanitizer warnings were probably overdue anyhow.

Washington Post evening headlines:
Trump pushes FDA to quickly clear coronavirus antibody treatments, erroneously calling them a ‘cure’
Labor agency OSHA closes more than half of workers’ coronavirus retaliation complaints without investigating
A week into a White House outbreak, CDC still playing only a limited role
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:40 PM on October 8, 2020 [6 favorites]

Guess there's still someone paying attention at the Trump campaign.

As Trump's doctor has cleared him to go back out on the campaign trail again Saturday, Trump's campaign is arguing that there's no reason for the Commission on Presidential Debates to change anything about it; it should be in person, on the originally-decided day.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:29 PM on October 8, 2020

I've no freaking clue how Coronavirus is affecting Trump, but his public statements today do sound even more manic and crazy than usual. He seems to be heading towards some sort of collapse, but it's hard to say if it will happen before or after the election.
posted by Kevin Street at 9:31 PM on October 8, 2020

Oh! But the chair of the Commission on Presidential Debates says they're not going to reconsider making the second debate virtual, which the AP says means the second debate probably isn't going to happen at all.

It's very 2020 for the first debate to be first and the third debate to be second.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:36 PM on October 8, 2020 [3 favorites]

Trump needs to step down. He is clearly not in control of his faculties and his behavior, when he is calling for political opponents to be detained by Barr, for as-of-yet unspecified crimes.

These rants are an even more serious and concerning demonstration of mental illness than normal, whether or not exacerbated by his medication. This person cannot be allowed access to nuclear codes.

The remaining question now is to what degree Pence's apparent unspoken illness has progressed. He did not look like a well man on Wednesday, and not showing up to events the day after is indicative of larger problems for which the American public deserve answers.

An executive branch cannot be run this way. To Pelosi's political opponents, anything she does to invoke the 25th would look like a coup, but the situation is devolving fast and action may be necessary to deal with two incapacitated leaders, as a simple matter of national security.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:45 PM on October 8, 2020 [7 favorites]

As Trump's doctor has cleared him to go back out on the campaign trail again Saturday

I got cash money saying that says Saturday == Playing golf.
posted by mikelieman at 9:54 PM on October 8, 2020 [9 favorites]

I will happily support Trump playing golf from now until January 20th on my (taxpayer) dime.
posted by monospace at 10:02 PM on October 8, 2020 [5 favorites]

Peter Baker and Maggie Haberman in The New York Times: “Trump Lashes Out at His Cabinet With Calls to Indict Political Rivals”

The president was all over the map in his two Fox phone calls, throwing out unsubstantiated or discredited accusations, explaining that he wanted to bring home troops from Afghanistan to be ready to fight China or Russia if necessary and calling Gov. Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan “the lockup queen” even as his own Justice Department was announcing the existence of an anti-government group’s plot to kidnap her.

As for his opponents, he said on Fox Business that Mr. Biden “wouldn’t be president for two months” because “he’s not mentally capable,” leaving Ms. Harris to then take over the presidency. “She’s a communist,” he said. “We’re going to have a communist.” A few hours later, Mr. Trump reposted Twitter messages claiming that Speaker Nancy Pelosi might be orchestrating “a coup” against him.

…

White House aides privately expressed concern about whether the president’s animated mood in recent days stemmed from the dexamethasone. Doctors not involved with the president’s care said it could have a significant effect on a patient’s behavior.

Dr. Negin Hajizadeh, a pulmonary/critical care physician at Northwell Health, noted that the majority of Covid patients receiving dexamethasone are on mechanical ventilation and in a state of induced coma, so they do not exhibit any behavioral side effects. But, she said, large studies show that generally 28 to 30 percent of patients will exhibit mild to moderate psychiatric side effects like anxiety, insomnia, mania or delirium after receiving steroid treatments, and about 6 percent may develop psychosis.

It’s really quite the article.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:05 PM on October 8, 2020 [9 favorites]

Figures this would happen, wouldn't it?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:08 PM on October 8, 2020

“She’s a communist,” he said. “We’re going to have a communist.”

From his mouth....
posted by tzikeh at 10:11 PM on October 8, 2020 [13 favorites]

So I have no idea what it is that Pelosi thinks that she and the Democrats need to discuss amongst themselves. They cannot decide to invoke the 25th, there are several steps before Congress would even become involved, and in the extraordinarily unlikely event that the Cabinet would take those steps, all the Senate has to do is go "Nuh-uh" and Trump remains.

Pelosi is not actually trying to get Trump removed, because you're right, that will never happen. However, she can set up an independent commission to investigate the president's health. She can do this under the 25th amendment rules. To what purpose I don't know. Possibly just to keep the issue of Trump's health front and center.
posted by xammerboy at 10:14 PM on October 8, 2020 [8 favorites]

Max Kennerly (MaxKennerly): "It took something like an hour for Trump to call in to a TV show and blurt out that Dr. Conley's letter—which said Trump "completed his course of therapy"—was false and he's still taking a medication that specifically warns about immunosuppression and neuropsychiatric effects."
posted by christopherious at 10:15 PM on October 8, 2020 [17 favorites]

Trump said he's still on the steroids. You know, that possibly make patients psychotic.
posted by xammerboy at 10:19 PM on October 8, 2020

Another Pelosi take on the 25th amendment. It's possible the case is really clear. Should anyone be doing any job when they're on a drug that's possibly made them psychotic? Bring that to the country's attention.
posted by xammerboy at 10:23 PM on October 8, 2020 [6 favorites]

White House aides privately expressed concern about whether the president’s animated mood in recent days stemmed from the dexamethasone.

As I mentioned upthread, I was prescribed dexamethasone once. The pharmacist spoke to me as he was dispensing it: “Well, you’re going to have a lot of heartburn. Sleeplessness too. And you seem like a pretty easygoing guy, but this much will turn you into the Incredible Hulk. If you are really pissed off all the time for the next week or two, it’s because of this.”

He was dead right. My own experience of corticosteroids (this and others) is that the mental effects range from irritability to furious paranoid certainty that everyone in your life is a liar and cheat.

Just the kind of thing you want in a guy with access to the nuclear football, a guy whose grasp of reality at the best of times is open to question.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:23 PM on October 8, 2020 [24 favorites]

So Conley becomes the latest in a long line of dignity wraiths.
posted by darkstar at 10:23 PM on October 8, 2020 [15 favorites]

Grauniad: Regeneron Covid drug given to Trump developed using cells derived from aborted fetus

2020, wow
posted by sixswitch at 10:30 PM on October 8, 2020 [12 favorites]

Competency hearings: Pelosi cross-examines Donald. [NSFW, John Waters]
posted by sexyrobot at 10:40 PM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

From this journal article on Psychiatric Adverse Effects of Corticosteroids it appears the science about how to respond therapeutically to steroid-induced delirium, mania etc. is not very good at this time. However the use of anti-psychotics in this sort of situation is known and apparently works sometimes. "In summary, for acute corticosteroid-induced psychiatric disturbances, atypical antipsychotics generally appear to yield the greatest benefit with the fewest adverse effects." (See the section on Management on pg. 1364)

I unfortunately have a lot of personal experience with anti-psychotics and feel that in general they are over-prescribed and in so many ways harmful drugs. But perhaps here we have a case where the national interest calls for giving them a go.

Would probably make him talk less and more slowly, anyway -- make him easier to 'handle'.
posted by bertran at 11:01 PM on October 8, 2020 [1 favorite]

I wonder if Conley is a die hard Trumper? He certainly lies like a rug for Dear Leader and is willing to throw his medical credibility in a dumpster fire.
posted by benzenedream at 11:20 PM on October 8, 2020

As for his opponents, he said on Fox Business that Mr. Biden “wouldn’t be president for two months” because “he’s not mentally capable,” leaving Ms. Harris to then take over the presidency. “She’s a communist,” he said. “We’re going to have a communist.”

Isn't this about her race? Am I stating the obvious? Sometimes I don't understand Americans.
posted by mumimor at 11:42 PM on October 8, 2020 [9 favorites]

No, no, it's also about gender. Race and gender.
posted by Justinian at 12:05 AM on October 9, 2020 [31 favorites]

“She’s a communist,” he said. “We’re going to have a communist.”

>> Isn't this about her race? Am I stating the obvious? Sometimes I don't understand Americans.

> No, no, it's also about gender. Race and gender.

This usage goes back a bit.

https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/10/10/race-mixing-is-communism/

Image: Protesters in Little Rock, Arkansas, (1959) declared that “race mixing” (or school integration) was “communism”:

This ties into how originally Republicans defined themselves, as pro-capital, meaning having contempt for the human suffering of workers, and more recently, with the Southern Strategy, as having contempt for the human suffering of people of color, and now they mix the two when they set up hate objects. Also gender, etc. etc.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/

You start out in 1954 by saying, “N*****, n*****, n*****.” By 1968 you can’t say “n*****”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N*****, n*****.”

posted by sebastienbailard at 12:53 AM on October 9, 2020 [26 favorites]

Grauniad: Regeneron Covid drug given to Trump developed using cells derived from aborted fetus

There's a subtle distinction here. It was tested using stem cells, but not derived from them.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:50 AM on October 9, 2020 [3 favorites]

One thing I've learned from historical-political discussions with The Kids These Days is that they (and apparently their parents) have absolutely no concept whatsoever of what "communism" is or was. The term has, Orwell-style, been drained of all meaning other than "something undesirable."

When someone brings up "communism," or "socialism" -- or even "science" -- pejoratively I always respond "what is communism/socialism/science?"

That almost always stops them dead in their tracks, that they can't even define this Thing That They Don't Like. If it doesn't, they invariably fumble with a piss-poor definition which I am happily prepared to poke holes in.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:53 AM on October 9, 2020 [16 favorites]

If we ever get a Leninist five-year plan, Stalinist gulags or Maoist Long March, it will be because the voters of the age have been conditioned to think that that's a precondition for single-payer health care and non-crumbling infrastructure. Besides, they have that in Sweden/Canada and they're doing alright.
posted by acb at 6:06 AM on October 9, 2020 [6 favorites]

There's a subtle distinction here. It was tested using stem cells, but not derived from them.

Nuance is okay, but I suspect the bigger problem is that Trump ended federal research using stem cells, in order to bribe votes from Christians who will cynically continue giving him support, in exchange for sweeping changes made to established, once-secular ethical and legal standards for medical research and healthcare privacy rights.

Here's an interesting piece from 2013 about extreme mountain climbers (ab)using dexamethasone:

Climbing's Little Helper

The doctors immediately sent a Sherpa to Easterling’s tent to collect any drugs he could find. When the Sherpa returned, the doctors gasped: he was carrying a tray full of dexamethasone, also known as dex, a controversial anti-inflammatory steroid. Prescribed to treat everything from tumors to asthma, dex has become popular among mountaineers in recent years because it can mitigate some of the effects of altitude sickness and high-altitude cerebral edema (HACE), like brain swelling, and because, when taken prophylactically, it can help climbers ascend quickly. Used to excess, it can also have dangerous side effects. On the tray sat 30 unopened vials of dex—more than Goodman stocked to serve every climber on Everest for an entire season. The Sherpa also handed Goodman a bottle of pills. At one point it had contained 90 doses of dexamethasone. Now it contained four.

This bit caught my eye, to explain why Trump should be removed from office until his health status can be independently evaluated:

Over the past two decades, climbers have discovered that dex also works magic on the way up, increasing lucidity and triggering feelings of euphoria. This is where the trouble starts, because people who take cortico-steroids for more than a week impair their immune systems: adrenal glands that naturally produce cortisol are essentially shut off by the drug and stop responding to stress. As a result, wounds don’t heal quickly, and users are susceptible to infection. Emotional swings are also common after prolonged use, though doctors still don’t understand the precise mechanism for that.

Many in the medical community argue that dex should be employed only in life-threatening scenarios, since prophylactic use masks HACE symptoms and reduces the drug’s efficacy in the event of emergency. “You basically take away your safety rope by using it on the way up,” says Dr. Luanne Freer, the 55-year-old founder of the Everest ER clinic. “If you get stuck in a storm, then we have nothing to give you as a rescue drug.”

posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:09 AM on October 9, 2020 [17 favorites]

Besides, they have that in Sweden/Canada and they're doing alright.

They've got a ready response to this which is quite racist, and boils down to "it works there because they have "high social cohesion" ( it's majority white); pluralism is why we can't have nice things."
posted by Miko at 6:13 AM on October 9, 2020 [5 favorites]

I taught antivirals to my students yesterday. I included about fifteen minutes on anti-COVID-19 virus drugs including "Regeneron." Regeneron is the company name, REGN-COV2 is the antibody cocktail.

#1. There has been no peer-reviewed study published regarding its use in the clinic. This includes accepted articles with pre-publication announcements.

#2. The only available public information regarding its safety and effectiveness is a Regeneron announcement seeking investors.

#3. As the announcement says "this analysis was considered descriptive, all p-values are nominal." Being a descriptive analysis means that it is describing the outcomes, not validating them.

#4. The results are weird. There were 275 patients divided into three treatment arms. "Standard care" (without the antibodies), high dose and low dose. The only results with a p value below 0.05 was in viral reduction with the low dose doing better than the high dose.

#5. The announcement claims: "Patients who were seronegative and/or had higher baseline viral levels also had greater benefits in terms of symptom alleviation." The p values are 0.22 for high dose and 0.09 for low dose saying neither of them helped with disease.

The announcement describes recruiting of "at least 1,300 patients will be recruited into the Phase 2/3 portion of the outpatient trial overall."

This is a drug that is supposed to be fast-tracked? Something good may come out of a real trial of the drug, or at least a real publication of results, but so far it's another hydroxychloroquine hype.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:21 AM on October 9, 2020 [24 favorites]

As far as the stem cell issue goes, the rank dishonesty and hypocrisy by Christians is what sticks in the craw:

"The president was not given any medicines to treat COVID-19 that involved the destruction of human life," wrote David Prentice, Ph.D., and Tara Sander Lee, Ph.D., of the Charlotte Lozier Institute, the research arm of the anti-abortion rights political group the Susan B. Anthony List, in a statement emailed to CBS News Wednesday afternoon. "No human embryonic stem cells or human fetal tissue were used to produce the treatments President Trump received – period."

So that's a lie, basically — and then when that is pointed out, they stonewall:

The researchers did not address the fact that fetal cells were used for testing earlier in the drug's development process. A spokesperson for the SBA List did not respond to follow up questions.

As of Wednesday afternoon, Lila Rose, the co-founder and president of Live Action, an anti-abortion group, rejected that the therapeutic was developed using fetal tissue, writing in an email to CBS News, "To our knowledge, Regeneron was not created using aborted baby tissue."

Rose acknowledged that other Regeneron products use fetal tissue in their development, which her group "absolutely condemn[s]." Rose did not respond to follow up questions.

If it saves Trump's life, these people are happy with violating their own religious and ethical codes to keep using him, to get us that much closer to Gilead.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:23 AM on October 9, 2020 [14 favorites]

One thing I've learned from historical-political discussions with The Kids These Days is that they (and apparently their parents) have absolutely no concept whatsoever of what "communism" is or was. The term has, Orwell-style, been drained of all meaning other than "something undesirable."

Which is why, after the fall of the Soviet Union, the Republicans pivoted so smoothly to denouncing "socialism," by which they mean, as before, "spending taxpayer money on people we don't like."
posted by Gelatin at 6:44 AM on October 9, 2020 [17 favorites]

Remdesivir.

Lancet is tepid in its praise. From Oct. 3.

""Remdesivir did not appear to affect rates of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) viral RNA load decline and mortality when compared with placebo."
"In mice, remdesivir needed to be administered within two days to have any effects."

The study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association was weird. First of all, it was open-label and not blinded.

Patients were divided up into 10 day treatment, 5 day treatment and standard of care. 74% of the five day treatment group received 5 day treatment. 47% of those in the 10 day treatment received five days or less. (supplement 3, eTable 2)

To me that says a lot of dropouts. I don't even know why you call it a 10 day course of treatment if half of the patients are gone in 5 days. And yet the 10-day course of treatment, even though it was virtually the same as the 5 days of treatment, didn't show an effect.

Only the "five-day course" showed statistical significance in benefits. "On day 11, patients randomized to the 5-day remdesivir group had significantly higher odds of a better clinical status distribution on the 7-point ordinal scale compared with those randomized to standard care (odds ratio, 1.65; 95% CI, 1.09-2.48; P = .02)

A p value of 0.02 is cutting it close especially in an unblinded study put together by Gilead Pharmaceuticals.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:12 AM on October 9, 2020 [6 favorites]

An executive branch cannot be run this way. To Pelosi's political opponents, anything she does to invoke the 25th would look like a coup, but the situation is devolving fast and action may be necessary to deal with two incapacitated leaders, as a simple matter of national security.

You could have said some form of this any day since 11/3/2016. Clearly this is not a simple matter of national security. The executive branch can be run this way, for certain values of 'run' that include caring about a shitload of judicial appointments.
posted by lazaruslong at 7:38 AM on October 9, 2020 [6 favorites]

The question I've asked people who are screaming "COUP ATTEMPT, COUP ATTEMPT" is this: if Trump really is capable right now, what is it that you are afraid of?

Clearly, Pence and the Cabinet have not decided that Trump is incapable of the office right now, or the 25th as written is right there to be invoked. Any theoretical commission to be formed (which would involve actual medical doctors and psychiatrists rather than Betsy DeVos passing judgment on Trump's health, which does sound to me like a better deal all-around, as someone who'd wished for psych profiles to be performed on Reagan back in the day in his second term) cannot be created without McConnell and the Senate's buy-in, which means that even if they somehow AGREED that such a commission would be a good thing, it's not happening any time soon because McConnell is not doing anything that even hints of "compromising with the Democrats" in election season. (Or any other time, but especially now.) And a "he's down and out" verdict would STILL require Pence's buy-in unless he, too was incapacitated.

If Trump is capable, all he would have to do is stand in front of said doctors and say, "Okay, I am recovering from an illness, but as you can see, I am lucid and I am mobile" and the media would go _insane_. "Pelosi attempts medical coup on false claims, is refuted" would be among the kindest headlines, leaving aside that "Pelosi attempts to get Mike Pence named Acting President" would be the outcome unless Pence is also down for the count so it's really not much of a coup, is it?

And if Trump is down for a few days but recovers, he sends a letter that says "I'm back" and whammo, he's President again very soon unless Pence & Co. dispute that. Hardly a "Nancy sends Trump to the Gulag" scenario.

So unless pretty much the entire Executive Branch is infected and incapable, including the POTUS and VEEP, Rankin's bill that Pelosi is signing onto now is more precautionary and clarifying-the-murky-25th than it is threatening in any way. Which Pelosi clearly knows.

Any "THIS IS A COUP" howler will clearly deny that the "unless" clause there is true. So... what _are_ they afraid of, then?
posted by delfin at 8:01 AM on October 9, 2020 [4 favorites]

Trump has been talking attempted coups even when Pence would become president.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:05 AM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

Grauniad: Regeneron Covid drug given to Trump developed using cells derived from aborted fetus

There's a subtle distinction here. It was tested using stem cells, but not derived from them.

Testing is part of development, so I don’t think there is anything wrong about the first statement or its phrasing. It says the stem cells were derived from a fetus, not the drug itself.
posted by snofoam at 8:06 AM on October 9, 2020 [6 favorites]

Pelosi is not actually trying to get Trump removed, because you're right, that will never happen. However, she can set up an independent commission to investigate the president's health. She can do this under the 25th amendment rules. To what purpose I don't know. Possibly just to keep the issue of Trump's health front and center.

The 25th Amendment says (paraphrased for brevity): "Whenever the Vice President and a majority of [the Cabinet] or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to [Congress] that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately [become] Acting President."

The "such other body" is meant to be an alternative to the Cabinet, but the House can't set it up on its own, it needs to be set up by Congress by law. So you need to 1) pass a law through both houses and 2) have it signed by the President. But even with such a body, you still need the VP on board. Nothing stops Pelosi from setting up her own little advisory board, that's something the House can just do for any issue, 25th or otherwise. But it wouldn't have any Constitutional role.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:10 AM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

they have that in Sweden/Canada and they're doing alright.

They've got a ready response to this which is quite racist, and boils down to "it works there because they have "high social cohesion" ( it's majority white); pluralism is why we can't have nice things."

for the record, Canada is actually more racially diverse than the US of A ... but I see your point. Racists don't exactly check the statistics before they pronounce their facts.
posted by philip-random at 8:13 AM on October 9, 2020 [6 favorites]

for the record, Canada is actually more racially diverse than the US of A.

I don't think so. That article talks about cultural diversity, which I suspect includes French-speaking Québécois. If you look at BIPOC, which seem more typical view of race, Canada is 86% European, 3% Indigenous, and 11% POC, compared with the US at 61% white (non-Hispanic), 11% Latinx, 13% Black, 5% Asian, and the rest some mixture or "other".

Source: Wikipedia
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:30 AM on October 9, 2020 [3 favorites]

They've got a ready response to this which is quite racist, and boils down to "it works there because they have "high social cohesion" ( it's majority white); pluralism is why we can't have nice things."

It's just a huge distraction. There can be significant disagreements within an ethnically homogenous population, along class lines or about gender roles. And also the divide between rural, urban and suburban world views..
posted by mumimor at 8:40 AM on October 9, 2020 [2 favorites]

Friendly nudge, if people want to talk more about the social cohesion/homogeneity topic etc please make a separate thread for it, so we can keep this already-excessively-long thread more focused on narrow Trump-has-covid stuff. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:42 AM on October 9, 2020 [10 favorites]

Trump says he's planning to hold Saturday rally, hours after doctor says that's the day he can likely "return to public engagements"

You know how some parasites hijack the nervous system of their host to make it so they spread further and faster? It feels like that’s happening with Trump and COVID.
posted by graymouser at 9:25 AM on October 9, 2020 [17 favorites]

Trump's upcoming interview with Tucker Carlson will include a televised "medical evaluation" by Dr. Marc Siegel. Siegel is a contributor to Fox News, where he has baselessly claimed that Hillary Clinton had a serious undisclosed illness, incorrectly claimed that COVID-19 was, at worst, on par with the flu, and has praised Trump's response to the pandemic.

So it will be total theater.
posted by jedicus at 9:28 AM on October 9, 2020 [7 favorites]

Trump's upcoming interview with Tucker Carlson will include a televised "medical evaluation" by Dr. Marc Siegel.

My roommate made a good point - in all of the articles he has read about this medical evaluation, at no time did any of them state that it would be broadcast live.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:31 AM on October 9, 2020 [4 favorites]

> My roommate made a good point - in all of the articles he has read about this medical evaluation, at no time did any of them state that it would be broadcast live.

Oh thank goodness. The odds of us never having to see Trump shirtless have gone up just a little more.
posted by davelog at 9:34 AM on October 9, 2020 [4 favorites]

I'm really curious to see what kind of performance he can actually put on during a rally tomorrow. It's like the debate, it's going to be practically impossible to hide it if he is not truly back to 100%. All this other stuff he's doing is pretty obviously engineered bullshit because there are plenty of easy ways to prove you aren't sick that don't involve calling into TV shows to rant about it. He's either back to normal or so reckless that this whole thing might be over in the time it takes him to slowly topple over.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:36 AM on October 9, 2020 [3 favorites]

It's hi-larious in a oh god, oh god we're all going to (maybe) die sort of way that as an electrician I can lose my job for having a toke three weeks ago but one of the guys who can initiate a nuclear holocaust is apparently strung out on dexamethasone. I think 80s kid flashbacks are affecting my sleep.

If it saves Trump's life, these people are happy with violating their own religious and ethical codes to keep using him, to get us that much closer to Gilead.

Trump has procured several, no grey area, actual abortions and they are a-ok with that; the cognitive dissonance/hypocrisy on the fetal tissue is no shock at all.
posted by Mitheral at 9:40 AM on October 9, 2020 [28 favorites]

Trump has procured several, no grey area, actual abortions and they are a-ok with that

The actual, no-kidding defense I have heard: he was a Democrat at the time.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:43 AM on October 9, 2020 [13 favorites]

feloniousmonk: it's going to be practically impossible to hide it if he is not truly back to 100%.

Not if he's hopped up on goofballs.
posted by tzikeh at 9:51 AM on October 9, 2020 [3 favorites]

I don't know, he was hopped up on the best stuff the other night and it led to clips of him gasping all over the internet.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:53 AM on October 9, 2020

Trump has procured several, no grey area, actual abortions
Cite?
(I mean, I suspect the same thing, but it's nice to have sources.)
posted by neroli at 9:54 AM on October 9, 2020 [5 favorites]

Trump's upcoming interview with Tucker Carlson will include a televised "medical evaluation" by Dr. Marc Siegel. Siegel is a contributor to Fox News, where he has baselessly claimed that Hillary Clinton had a serious undisclosed illness, incorrectly claimed that COVID-19 was, at worst, on par with the flu, and has praised Trump's response to the pandemic.

SIEGEL: *taps under Trump's left knee with small rubber implement*

TRUMP: *right leg kicks up*

SIEGEL: He's good!
posted by delfin at 9:56 AM on October 9, 2020 [4 favorites]

Where's Dr. Benway when we need him the most?
posted by Harry Caul at 10:05 AM on October 9, 2020 [6 favorites]

I was thinking: Amy Coney Barrett is said to have had COVID-19. (This report from Time suggests it, but doesn't confirm it.)
Is she enough of a public figure that it can be determined whether she isolated for two or more weeks? If she did have COVID-19 and did not isolate (or is shown being mask-free) that would speak to irresponsibility.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:08 AM on October 9, 2020 [5 favorites]

Dr. Bombay? Died in 2016.

(I am being purposefully flippant).
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:12 AM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

Sorry if this has already been covered, but I didn't see it: how is Pelosi raising the specter of the 25th Amendment not a monumentally bad idea right now? It looks like there's a strong possiblity P45 is actually going to lose the election, possibly by a lot; I think even the most stalwart members of the GOP would concede that. Why not just let the election take its course so there's a viable electoral basis for saying that he no longer has the authority to be in the White House? Seems to me that Pelosi suddenly starting a 25th Amendment committee three weeks before the election doesn't do anything other than give a big beribboned gift to the people who want the slightest excuse to start yelling about a coup.
posted by holborne at 10:22 AM on October 9, 2020 [2 favorites]

They already yell about a coup when we encourage voting. Pelosi is keeping his mental instability in the news cycle another week to encourage voting, that's all. Every Trumper who is still for Trump after all this will walk through fire to vote for their racist golem.
posted by benzenedream at 10:24 AM on October 9, 2020 [33 favorites]

holborne, the thing about accusations is, as we learned with Clinton, they still create doubt. Just having people ask "Wait, is the President sane?" is a conversation the Republicans really, really don't want to have.

And it has legs, because he is, in fact, acting unbalanced and weird and shifty about his health.

Yes, his Q team will holler, but they always holler.
posted by emjaybee at 10:25 AM on October 9, 2020 [31 favorites]

I don't see how as Pelosi you can't talk 25th. It's clear none of the complicit republicans are going to do a gd thing even though they know he's an unfit trainwreck. If she doesn't do anything then she didn't do anything and why didn't she do anything and if she does, well, she's just a silly bitch. So you know, it's a lose-lose.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 10:26 AM on October 9, 2020 [12 favorites]

how is Pelosi raising the specter of the 25th Amendment not a monumentally bad idea right now? It looks like there's a strong possiblity P45 is actually going to lose the election, possibly by a lot;

Regardless of the outcome of the election, Trump will be the acting president for the next four months. There's a lot of damage he can do even after he loses.
posted by JackFlash at 10:54 AM on October 9, 2020 [18 favorites]

My prediction: blanket pardons will be issued on the last minute of the administration to keep the minions in line, but they will include pardons for the entire Republican party.
posted by benzenedream at 11:00 AM on October 9, 2020 [3 favorites]

Trump resigns 10 min to noon on January 20, and Pence pardons him.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:08 AM on October 9, 2020 [7 favorites]

I mean, is it possible to pardon someone for unspecified offenses? Wouldn't he need to be charged with something, in order for a pardon to be relevant?

Also my sense was that there are a ton of charges that the states' attorneys general (whatever the proper plural is here) are waiting to lay on him once he leaves office(?)
posted by newdaddy at 11:12 AM on October 9, 2020

Remember, accepting a pardon means officially pleading guilty. No matter how the acceptee wants to spin it, only one has to be found guioty first before one can be pardoned.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:14 AM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

He's probably at his most dangerous in the months between election and leaving office - what are you gonna do, vote him out twice? While he has howling bands of angry, violent white supremacists following his every dogwhistle, a Senate that still wouldn't remove him under any circumstances, and potentially Republican Senators who are trying to shore up their wingnut welfare bonafides if they lose?

The only thing more dangerous is him winning.
posted by mrgoat at 11:14 AM on October 9, 2020 [11 favorites]

I mean, is it possible to pardon someone for unspecified offenses? Wouldn't he need to be charged with something, in order for a pardon to be relevant?

Nixon's pardon was for, "all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974."
posted by nathan_teske at 11:14 AM on October 9, 2020 [20 favorites]

The only reasons I don't think trump will go out with a blaze of pardons are 1, it's a guilty plea, and voids the right of the person receiving it from claiming 5th amendment rights regarding the crime admitted to, so those people could be forced to testify to things that hurt him and 2, he neither gives anything away without getting something or pays anything he owes, if he can manage not to. He has no loyalty, and neither trusts nor cares about anyone.

I half suspect his narcissism to keep him from giving up the office for even the 10 minutes required to get a pardon.
posted by mrgoat at 11:24 AM on October 9, 2020 [4 favorites]

Rules on Presidential Pardons
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:26 AM on October 9, 2020 [2 favorites]

Well, he’s not going to Florida this weekend.
posted by Melismata at 11:33 AM on October 9, 2020 [2 favorites]

They already yell about a coup when we encourage voting. Pelosi is keeping his mental instability in the news cycle another week to encourage voting, that's all.

Pelosi has a remarkable ability to get under Trump's skin (because he's afraid of her, of course), and she's attacking his perception as a Strong Healthy Virile Man. He'll probably freak out and say something vile, which will reinforce her version, of course, and turn off yet more voters. She's transparently manipulating him into making a blunder, and he can't help falling for it.
posted by Gelatin at 11:37 AM on October 9, 2020 [29 favorites]

Meanwhile, back at the Drudge Report ...

PELOSI: TRUMP'S IN ALTERED STATE...
Will undergo 'medical evaluation' in FOXNEWS appearance...
COUGHS ON 'HANNITY'...
Noticeably Hoarse, Voice Breaks Off Twice...
Won't Travel Over Weekend, Ending Florida Rally Plan...
Video prompts green screen speculation, online skepticism...
Chris Wallace Says President 'Made Big Mistake' By Bowing Out of Second Debate...
Projection of normalcy hits obstacles...
Investors Now Betting He'll Lose!
BIDEN +10.2%...
TED CRUZ: REPUBLICANS COULD FACE 'BLOODBATH OF WATERGATE PROPORTIONS'...
posted by philip-random at 11:48 AM on October 9, 2020 [2 favorites]

Melismata: Well, he’s not going to Florida this weekend.

Source, plz?
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:48 AM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

Too-Ticky:

Bloomberg: President Donald Trump will remain at the White House this weekend, people familiar with the matter said, after he said he wanted to hold rallies in Florida and Pennsylvania despite questions over the stage of his recovery from Covid-19.

Trump, who told Fox’s Sean Hannity late Thursday that he wanted to hold rallies Saturday and Sunday, won’t travel until Monday at the earliest, said the people, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 11:52 AM on October 9, 2020 [8 favorites]

If you've ever wondered which would be worse, talking to Trump for 2 hours or talking to Rush Limbaugh for 2 hours, we now have a tentative answer: Trump.

After two full hours of talking with President Trump on his radio show, it was Rush Limbaugh who finally tried to end the conversation saying: “I know you’ve got a jam-packed day left on your schedule…”

posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:21 PM on October 9, 2020 [38 favorites]

Trump also dropped an F-bomb on the air, so everyone needs to file a complaint with the FCC.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:28 PM on October 9, 2020 [8 favorites]

This Pence-has-Covid thing is getting a little more interesting
posted by mcstayinskool at 12:31 PM on October 9, 2020 [4 favorites]

Didn't Limbaugh have to give up drugs? That would put him at a disadvantage.
posted by Grangousier at 12:31 PM on October 9, 2020 [7 favorites]

I actually live *in* Indiana and used an absentee ballot. I don't think that tells us shit about Pence. I think Pence is doing his standard better to be unseen Pence thing. His last address was listed as the Governor's mansion in Indianapolis on his Indiana voter registration per local news last night, though. So hope he has good mail forwarding.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 12:39 PM on October 9, 2020 [3 favorites]

Having waited an hour in line yesterday to vote early in Indianapolis, I can't imagine the crowd would have been keen on Pence cutting in line. Plus he would have been the only one in the line without a mask!
posted by Dalton Luceria at 12:44 PM on October 9, 2020 [3 favorites]

Sorry, I should have given backstory.

Pence looked pale (I know, he's always pale) and had a noticeable eye bleed at Wednesday's debate.

Pence cancelled a campaign appearance Thursday and the reason given was he needed to go to Indiana to participate in early voting.

Then today (Friday) he cancelled going for early voting and requested an absentee ballot.

And then there was this weird thing that got posted and then removed from the website Deadline

Nothing solid here, but always worth doubting the propaganda death cult.
posted by mcstayinskool at 12:46 PM on October 9, 2020 [6 favorites]

I think we understood why you posted it. I don't think anyone would be surprised if he does have covid. I just don't know that we can use him cancelling events as an indication of anything other than his usual bullshit. It could also be that he's hanging out in DC because he's scared shitless that Pelosi will gain super traction on the 25th stuff. Pence is a super weasel so it's hard to say why he's hiding.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 12:52 PM on October 9, 2020 [10 favorites]

His eyes are bleeding? Badass.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 12:56 PM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

"The Vice-President's Eyes Are Bleeding!" was a rather poor mid-seventies post-watergate thriller.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:08 PM on October 9, 2020 [16 favorites]

NYTimes: What would Trump's COVID care cost the average American
Short answer: $100,000 with helicopter ambulance ride. But other patients requiring hospital stays for coronavirus have received bills upward of $400,000, among other unexpected expenses.

"Marta Bartan, who works as a hair colorist in Brooklyn, needed a coronavirus test to return to her job this summer. She received a $1,394 bill from the hospital running the drive-through site where she was tested."

"Air ambulances are expensive and often not in major health insurance plans’ networks. The median charge for an air ambulance is $38,770, according to a study in the journal Health Affairs published this year. When the helicopter trip is out of network — as about three-quarters of them are — patients are left with a median charge of $21,698 after the insurance payout."
posted by hydra77 at 1:12 PM on October 9, 2020 [6 favorites]

Re: Barrett infection. IIRC, they stated that her infection was back in June. Her kids, though, who knows... They were sitting next to Melania at the Rose Garden event.
posted by sexyrobot at 1:14 PM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

Perhaps flies can detect Covid, like dogs and some people detecting illnesses by smell? This could be useful!
posted by rainy at 1:18 PM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

WTF is going on with the Meuller papers? I've seen some retweets with screenshots saying 45 has issued a declassification order via tweet - on the man's own Twitter timeline I saw that he had retweeted someone else's mention of this as part of an attack on Clinton. Then it disappeared when I scrolled back looking for it. Some poor staffer is desperately trying to delete these things as fast as he posts them now that Buzzfeed is after the full report.
posted by caution live frogs at 1:20 PM on October 9, 2020 [4 favorites]

SIEGEL: *taps under Trump's left knee with small rubber implement*

TRUMP: *right leg kicks up*

Right arm, surely.
posted by acb at 1:21 PM on October 9, 2020 [23 favorites]

Wasn't that just a joke by Ted Lieu? Trump is not releasing full report (hint: because it would be bad for him).
posted by rainy at 1:22 PM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

Which is all to say - he's not known for making stable, rational decisions on a GOOD day but there seems to be an excessive amount of last-second walkbacks by his handlers in the past week. Even for him, it's a lot.
posted by caution live frogs at 1:22 PM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

rainy - it does not appear to just be a joke. But the original tweets are being deleted. The one I saw momentarily on his stream was basically the same thing - retweeting the "Trump authorized the full declassification" bit with some statement about how now that it is all in the open we the people will be able to see it was all a setup.
posted by caution live frogs at 1:28 PM on October 9, 2020

Even Trump doesn't know if he's joking at this point. His solipsism has kicked up several notches since the return from Walter Reed,
posted by Kevin Street at 1:36 PM on October 9, 2020

On top of everything else Trump’s been passed over again for the Nobel Peace Prize. Things just aren’t going his way lately.
posted by TedW at 1:40 PM on October 9, 2020 [20 favorites]

how is Pelosi raising the specter of the 25th Amendment not a monumentally bad idea right now?

i think she's -

1 - messing with trump's mind

2 - pointing out to the public that the drugs he's taken aren't good for his mental well-being

3 - sending a signal that just because trump loses the election doesn't mean his mental state will be ignored until january

4 - and believe it or not, perhaps the most important reason - she's sending a signal to biden and harris - "this is a real possibility that this could affect YOUR administration - let's be responsible about this and plan ahead for it"
posted by pyramid termite at 1:43 PM on October 9, 2020 [15 favorites]

And 5-she’s sending a message to the Supreme Court should they intervene on his behalf. (See comments in link.)
posted by TedW at 1:52 PM on October 9, 2020 [5 favorites]

Pelosi is doing the responsible and correct thing, which also happens to troll Trump and the rest of the GOP. These things are often one and the same.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:52 PM on October 9, 2020 [18 favorites]

WTF is going on with the Meuller papers?

Well, EPIC sued to enforce a FOIA request for the unredacted Mueller report. The DOJ had been stonewalling, but after Donald Trump tweeted -- believing of course that the Mueller report exonerates him -- EPIC asked the Judge to order the undredacted report released.

Since Presidential declassification via twitter is... not normal, the judge ordered DOJ to confirm their official position on tweets, before moving forward.
posted by mikelieman at 2:14 PM on October 9, 2020 [13 favorites]

Fresh from his Authoritarians 101 class, Trump says he will address hundred of admirers from the soon-to-be-if-not-already-infamous balcony tomorrow.
posted by glonous keming at 2:16 PM on October 9, 2020 [5 favorites]

glonous keming: "Fresh from his Authoritarians 101 class, Trump says he will address hundred of admirers from the soon-to-be-if-not-already-infamous balcony tomorrow."

Pompeo, Pompeo ... wherefore art thou, Pompeo?!
posted by chavenet at 2:20 PM on October 9, 2020 [6 favorites]

Post and Courier, SC: SC Senate debate replaced by separate interviews after Harrison insists on COVID tests [Which Graham refused]

"Republican incumbent Lindsey Graham and Democratic challenger Jaime Harrison will no longer debate Friday night after Harrison declined to participate unless Graham took a coronavirus test in advance and Graham denied the request."

So, uh... Graham is refusing to take a Covid test for, I dunno, some reason? Also worth remembering Graham is the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which I hear has some business in front of it right now.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:24 PM on October 9, 2020 [28 favorites]

Pompeo? Oh, he's getting ready to drop a bomb in the form of . . . more of Hillary's emails.
posted by soundguy99 at 2:26 PM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

His last address was listed as the Governor's mansion in Indianapolis on his Indiana voter registration per local news last night, though. So hope he has good mail forwarding.

Can you mail forward election material? Here it doesn't get forwarded.

"Marta Bartan, who works as a hair colorist in Brooklyn, needed a coronavirus test to return to her job this summer. She received a $1,394 bill from the hospital running the drive-through site where she was tested."

At that rate if Trump hasn't been shining us on about getting tested every day his tests alone since March 1st would have cost at least $309,468. And that is just for him; multiply that the number of people who he sees everyday to arrive at a number the US has paid just so Trump could justify his excuse for not wearing a mask.
posted by Mitheral at 2:31 PM on October 9, 2020 [2 favorites]

Donald Trump's COVID-19 treatment is similar to the average American hospitalized with coronavirus. Only faster. (USA Today, Oct. 7, 2020) President Trump received mostly the same treatment as anyone would get for COVID-19, except for one experimental drug and the speed of his care.

Except for the access to testing, the processing speed of that testing leading to swift diagnosis, the care he was able to receive in what is essentially a high-tech, in-home hospital suite, the helicopter flight, the guaranteed admission to Walter Reed, the experimental drug approved for his use, the round-the-clock dedicated care, the whimisical joyriding with the Secret Service, and the absolute absence of out-of-pocket costs, his COVID-19 experience has been mostly the same as the average American's experience of this disease.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:53 PM on October 9, 2020 [47 favorites]

At that rate if Trump hasn't been shining us on about getting tested every day his tests alone since March 1st would have cost at least $309,468. And that is just for him; multiply that the number of people who he sees everyday to arrive at a number the US has paid just so Trump could justify his excuse for not wearing a mask.

The White House used the abbott rapid tests, which are considerably cheaper. An August announcement said Abbott tests were to be sold to the public for $5. And they’re famously not as accurate as the deep nasal swab.
posted by mochapickle at 2:58 PM on October 9, 2020

Is the back-of-the-throat swab (which is the one they have in Sweden; I believe it's a PCR test) the same as the nasal swab?
posted by acb at 3:24 PM on October 9, 2020

The White House used the abbott rapid tests, which are considerably cheaper. An August announcement said Abbott tests were to be sold to the public for $5. And they’re famously not as accurate as the deep nasal swab.

Which is all too bad... The thought of trump getting a daily brain stab was one of the few bright points in 2020.
posted by kaibutsu at 3:39 PM on October 9, 2020 [12 favorites]

he was hopped up on the best stuff the other night and it led to clips of him gasping all over the internet.
He insisted on walking up the stairs to the balcony instead of entering on the ground floor and riding an elevator up. So he was out of breath. But he didn't want to show that he was out of breath because, what, he can't walk up some stairs? That would look bad. I have done this exact thing, myself, having completed some tiny physical exertion that an in-shape person would have no trouble with and being completely winded, I have tried to suppress my huge horsebreaths in order to conceal my shocking outofshapeness and likely looked insane doing it. I think the sonofabitch is going to be fine, and now I feel like a sucker for feeling sorry for him when I thought he was gasping because he was sick.
posted by Don Pepino at 3:55 PM on October 9, 2020 [10 favorites]

But you didn't claim to millions of people that you were the best qualified to lead the country due to your incredible STAMINA
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:01 PM on October 9, 2020 [3 favorites]

The second presidential debate between President Donald Trump and Democratic nominee Joe Biden slated for next week has been canceled, the Commission on Presidential Debate announced on Friday.

"Trump pulled out of that debate when the commission said it would be held remotely, and Biden then agreed to hold a town hall on ABC that night."

EDIT: Maybe we already knew that? But this is being treated like new info. Not sure what's different now.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 4:23 PM on October 9, 2020 [2 favorites]

That “medical examination” on Tucker Carlson’s show will be pre-taped. Of COURSE.
posted by argonauta at 4:27 PM on October 9, 2020 [4 favorites]

Is the back-of-the-throat swab (which is the one they have in Sweden; I believe it's a PCR test) the same as the nasal swab?

PCR tests are PCR tests, if they've passed regulatory scrutiny, they're all about the same level of sensitivity and specificity, which are vastly superior to antibody tests.

The difference between a nasal swab and throat swab may be in how well it can pick up virus. I suspect the efficacy between the two may be close enough as not to matter, and that the deep nasal swab method is used in the USA out of cruelty and to discourage testing.
posted by porpoise at 4:29 PM on October 9, 2020 [9 favorites]

EDIT: Maybe we already knew that? But this is being treated like new info. Not sure what's different now.

Both candidates had already said they wouldn't be there, but now the sponsor, the CPD, is cancelling it, which is good, otherwise there could be a lot of back and forth over the next few days about whether everyone would change their mind.
posted by skewed at 4:32 PM on October 9, 2020 [6 favorites]

That “medical examination” on Tucker Carlson’s show will be pre-taped. Of COURSE.

Ehh, first rule of live demos is they always go wrong. I'm not really inclined to look for anything nefarious there. It's theater, and everyone knows it's theater. They have no incentive to show a live medical exam.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 4:33 PM on October 9, 2020

President Trump is planning to host up to 2,000 people on the South Lawn of the White House on Saturday for his first in-person event since he announced he had tested positive for the coronavirus.

What could possibly go wrong?
posted by mbrubeck at 5:39 PM on October 9, 2020 [19 favorites]

Trump also dropped an F-bomb on the air, so everyone needs to file a complaint with the FCC.

Awww, President Baby's first F-bomb!
posted by kirkaracha at 5:55 PM on October 9, 2020

He's trying to prove that it wasn't a superspreader event at the rose garden.
posted by rainy at 6:09 PM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

I'm actually starting to think that he's actively trying to spread COVID. As in, "If I'm going down, I'm taking you bastards with me!". It seems entirely within his character.
posted by Crane Shot at 6:14 PM on October 9, 2020 [12 favorites]

> Trump has procured several, no grey area, actual abortions
> Cite? (I mean, I suspect the same thing, but it's nice to have sources.)

Did Trump Pay 8 Women to Have Abortions? — Rumor holds that Donald Trump has paid off multiple sexual partners to obtain abortions and sign nondisclosure agreements., Snopes, David Mikkelson, 1/21/2020: Rating — Unproven.

[But no one would be shocked if he did.]
posted by cenoxo at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2020 [6 favorites]

Trump has been on the side of Covid since pretty much day one.

The White House used the abbott rapid tests, which are considerably cheaper. An August announcement said Abbott tests were to be sold to the public for $5. And they’re famously not as accurate as the deep nasal swab.

Sorry, I was snarking on American Healthcare markups. I'm pretty sure the actual, per unit consumable cost of whatever test Marta Bartan received wasn't $1,394 either. 80% of US Covid test are <$200 but that may not include provider visit, facility fee or other services.

But $5 isn't the cost of providing a test to Trump. Presumably Trump isn't DIYer it and there are a bunch of well compensated people actually procuring, supplying, using, keeping records of and disposing the $5 worth of material.
posted by Mitheral at 6:21 PM on October 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

Trump has been on the side of Covid since pretty much day one.

One assumes he’s been collecting Putin’s bounties.
posted by notyou at 8:59 PM on October 9, 2020 [5 favorites]

From The Washington Post Lifestyle section: Hope Hicks returned to the White House to pull Trump across the finish line. Then coronavirus hit.
posted by mumimor at 1:17 AM on October 10, 2020 [2 favorites]

Two students and a teacher at the Indiana private school that Amy Coney Barrett’s kids attend have tested positive for coronavirus (WaPo)
posted by argonauta at 5:22 AM on October 10, 2020 [11 favorites]

OMG Mandy Patinkin GOTV ad! With his wife Kathryn Grody, directed by their son Gideon Patinkin-Grody and Ewen Wright, for an organization called https://thelastweekends.org. (Posted last week so you may have already seen it.)
posted by XMLicious at 9:23 AM on October 10, 2020 [17 favorites]

Of course Mandy Patinkin played Inigo Montoya, but together with Kathryn Grody they're much more like Miracle Max and Valerie.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:37 AM on October 10, 2020 [8 favorites]

Olivia Nuzzi in New York Magazine: “The Entire Presidency Is a Superspreading Event”

“I could be one of the diers,” [the President] said.

posted by Going To Maine at 10:07 AM on October 10, 2020 [12 favorites]

Such a gross quotation, "diers." Trump's thinking is so categorical. You're a "loser," or "weak," or a "sucker" or "people who didn't get captured." And then there are "diers" and the marvelous, invulnerable, strong people who don't die. You don't have to worry about "diers." Imagine in that worldview, having to contemplate for a few minutes you might fit the category of the useless, expendable "diers."
posted by Miko at 10:34 AM on October 10, 2020 [24 favorites]

Why has no one put forward the obvious hypothesis? Trump was infected with a weak strain of the virus.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:51 AM on October 10, 2020

Trump's latest tweet:

Joe Biden is a PUPPET of CASTRO-CHAVISTAS like Crazy Bernie, AOC and Castro-lover Karen Bass. Biden is supported by socialist Gustavo Petro, a major LOSER and former M-19 guerrilla leader. Biden is weak on socialism and will betray Colombia. I stand with you!

Methinks he's worried about losing Cubans in Florida.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:55 AM on October 10, 2020 [10 favorites]

Going To Maine: That article is very informative, but somewhat strange. At times it reads like a fictional story with access to Trump's inner thoughts, maybe because it's based on high-level anonymous sources? The big takeaway for me is that Trump had no idea he'd contracted Covid before Wednesday night, although it doesn't say when he was last tested before that.

And speaking of Trump's inner thoughts...

Miko: Everything I've read about Trump seems pretty consistent. (Although it's all second-hand analysis and could be wrong.) It depicts his inner universe as a simple place. For Trump there's only two kinds of people: "killers" and "losers," terms he learned from his father. Killers win because they're strong, and losers lose because they're weak. The whole thing is explicitly zero sum. For Trump there's no winning unless you can take something away from somebody, and the people who lose out are beneath contempt. Like it says in the article, being a "dier" isn't necessarily a moral failing in Trumpland, but it solidifies your standing forever. So there's nothing worse than being a dier and a loser.
posted by Kevin Street at 12:57 PM on October 10, 2020 [3 favorites]

TFW a 74-year-old man unironically attacks a nearly 78-year-old man as being the ideological puppet of a dead, would-be 96-year-old man.
posted by riverlife at 1:37 PM on October 10, 2020 [10 favorites]

a major LOSER and former M-19 guerrilla leader.

"Guerilla?" Doesn't he mean "militia?"
posted by rhizome at 2:08 PM on October 10, 2020 [4 favorites]

... will betray Colombia ...

In contrast, Trump stuck by the Kurds through thick and thin .. no, wait a minute ...
posted by ZenMasterThis at 2:17 PM on October 10, 2020 [9 favorites]

I highly doubt Trump even has any idea who those people are. One of his handlers told him to say that.
posted by glonous keming at 3:00 PM on October 10, 2020 [24 favorites]

Annie Karni and Maggie Haberman in The New York Times: “Trump Makes First Public Appearance Since Leaving Walter Reed”

In several phone calls last weekend from the presidential suite at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center, Mr. Trump shared an idea he was considering: When he left the hospital, he wanted to appear frail at first when people saw him, according to people with knowledge of the conversations. But underneath his button-down dress shirt, he would wear a Superman T-shirt, which he would reveal as a symbol of strength when he ripped open the top layer. He ultimately did not go ahead with the stunt.

Surely a joke, but imagine if not.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:25 PM on October 10, 2020 [7 favorites]

But underneath his button-down dress shirt, he would wear a Superman T-shirt, which he would reveal as a symbol of strength when he ripped open the top layer

He had the chance to go all Gene Wilder frail to acrobatic Wonka and missed it.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:36 PM on October 10, 2020 [4 favorites]

I don't recall ever seeing the Patient Zero in a button-down. Ever.
posted by Harry Caul at 3:39 PM on October 10, 2020 [1 favorite]

Going To Maine: "he would wear a Superman T-shirt"

Tr(i)ump(h) of the Will to Power
posted by chavenet at 4:16 PM on October 10, 2020 [1 favorite]

he would wear a Superman T-shirt, which he would reveal as a symbol of strength when he ripped open the top layer.

As the George Reeves TV show revealed, the combination of Superman crest and man-boobs sends a mixed message.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:45 PM on October 10, 2020 [6 favorites]

A flaming narcissist made up a fantasy about how he was secretly cool after doing something deeply pathetic looking, film at 11
posted by StarkRoads at 5:56 PM on October 10, 2020 [26 favorites]

I don't recall ever seeing the Patient Zero in a button-down. Ever.

I’m sure someone at the New York Times knows the difference between a button-down and button-up shirt, but apparently it’s not the editors. Maybe need to put up the @nyttypos signal.
posted by stopgap at 6:17 PM on October 10, 2020 [4 favorites]

He had the chance to go all Gene Wilder frail to acrobatic Wonka and missed it.

Thus spake my roommate: "....You know something? I would have given him points if he'd done that."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:38 PM on October 10, 2020 [2 favorites]

I’m sure someone at the New York Times knows the difference between a button-down and button-up shirt, but apparently it’s not the editors.

It is also apparently not me, nor my quick Google search which yielded approximately the same results searching on both "button up shirt" and "button down shirt". What is the difference?
posted by eviemath at 8:03 PM on October 10, 2020 [5 favorites]

Allegedly a button-down shirt refers only to a shirt where the collar tips button down to the chest of the shirt, like this.

But I daresay most people I know used button-down and button-up interchangeably.
posted by muddgirl at 8:06 PM on October 10, 2020 [7 favorites]

The difference is that button down shirts have buttons on the collar (i.e. to button it down, hence the name).
posted by rainy at 8:07 PM on October 10, 2020

Yes it's a button-down collar (as Jos A Banks calls it, a button down collar shirt) but the whole shirt is also buttoned down, for people who start at the collar vs. button up from the waist... :)
posted by muddgirl at 8:09 PM on October 10, 2020 [2 favorites]

I don't recall ever seeing the Patient Zero in a button-down. Ever.

Nor I -- never noticed until now, but you're right! He probably made a decision long ago, since he wears a suit so often, to no longer and never again futz around with those little collar buttons, after tying his tie.
posted by Rash at 8:23 PM on October 10, 2020

In the language of men's fashion, button-down collars are relatively informal and shouldn't really be worn with a suit. This rule is often broken, of course, but Trump makes a point of wearing formal dress shirts with French cuffs and point collars.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:45 PM on October 10, 2020 [3 favorites]

But underneath his button-down dress shirt, he would wear a Superman T-shirt, which he would reveal as a symbol of strength when he ripped open the top layer.

Just imagine if we gave someone like this the nuclear codes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:02 AM on October 11, 2020 [11 favorites]

The Taliban on Trump: "We hope he will win the election" and withdraw U.S. troops
posted by chavenet at 5:59 AM on October 11, 2020 [5 favorites]

I'm waiting for the time - surely not too far away - when Trump declares that, because he 'defeated' COVID-19, he's a winner, and that everyone who's died from it is a loser. I hope he doesn't go there, but his is a binary world where people are either winners or losers with nothing in between.
posted by essexjan at 7:19 AM on October 11, 2020 [4 favorites]

when Trump declares that, because he 'defeated' COVID-19, he's a winner, and that everyone who's died from it is a loser.

I think we're already there. This idea has been seeded pretty effectively through right-wing Facebook groups and the like - COVID is only a concern for "the vulnerable," and the vulnerable = losers. People you don't have to care about. They were old, weak, sick, and/or non-white.
posted by Miko at 9:33 AM on October 11, 2020 [8 favorites]

the great god djia demands lives: we will honor their selfless sacrif--- oh! what's that now? nevermind: losers.
posted by 20 year lurk at 9:52 AM on October 11, 2020

I agree the narrative is already out there, Miko, but what I meant was the actual words from Trump's mouth that people who die from the virus are 'losers', in answer to a question put to him such as "you recovered from COVID-19, so does that make you a 'winner'?" To which he'll obviously reply that he's the winningest winner of all the winners who've ever won anything, ever. "So, Mr President, does that mean you think the people who've died of COVID-19 are losers?" As there is nothing nuanced in his world, there's only one way his mind can go in computing his answer to that, and if he's in the midst of one of his free-fall word salad phone interviews, maybe, just maybe, he'll brand 215,000 dead people as losers.
posted by essexjan at 10:52 AM on October 11, 2020 [4 favorites]

If you're a presidential candidate and you have the endorsement of the KKK and The Taliban, you're doing something very very wrong.
posted by Liquidwolf at 1:24 PM on October 11, 2020 [31 favorites]

If you're ~~a presidential candidate~~ the President of the US and you have the endorsement of the KKK and The Taliban, you're doing something very very wrong.

FTFY
posted by chavenet at 2:05 PM on October 11, 2020 [12 favorites]

As there is nothing nuanced in his world, there's only one way his mind can go in computing his answer to that, and if he's in the midst of one of his free-fall word salad phone interviews, maybe, just maybe, he'll brand 215,000 dead people as losers.

But... the future refused to change.

Governance out of spite is exactly what it says on the tin. Cruelty and callousness are just part and parcel when your primary goal is just to own the libs. I swear if liberals woke up tomorrow and said fuck the poor and nobody deserves healthcare we'd have a $15 minimum wage and Medicare For All by noon.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:06 PM on October 11, 2020 [5 favorites]

Did COVID really not affect Trump enough to keep him bed- and ventilator-bound? Could he actually have withstood it with the help of all those drugs and now he's going to be more or less OK? I don't understand. I thought people at his age and in the shape he's in end up in the hospital and pretty much incommunicado for at least a couple of weeks, like Chris Christie.
posted by droplet at 2:18 PM on October 11, 2020 [5 favorites]

There's a solid chance that the drugs are all that's holding him up right now. That course of steroids alone is remarkably dangerous. Even if he did clear COVID and come out OK, the repercussions of all those medications are going to come back to bite him in the...well, kidneys, liver, and adrenal glands at least. He's not out of the woods yet.
posted by mrgoat at 2:27 PM on October 11, 2020 [7 favorites]

There's a higher risk of serious illness from COVID as you get older, but it isn't inevitable.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:29 PM on October 11, 2020 [9 favorites]

I assume the discussion about whether his infection was just staged in order to gain media time and points for him being strong has already occurred?
posted by njohnson23 at 2:38 PM on October 11, 2020 [2 favorites]

Exactly. A higher risk does not equal a 100% chance. That means that some lucky people will just waltz through. And since, as we've found out, there is no justice in the universe... well, it is what it is.

Then again, see mrgoat's comment (which is exactly what I needed to see before going to bed, so thank you).
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:38 PM on October 11, 2020 [7 favorites]

There's a higher risk of serious illness from COVID as you get older, but it isn't inevitable.

I was thinking more that because he apparently eats horribly and is obese that those factors would've laid him low, but I guess some people luck out in that department as well. In terms of whether or not he actually has it, that so many others in his vicinity seem to have gotten it makes me think he probably didn't lie about getting it. I wonder if Maureen Scalia got it. I'm sure she was swarmed at that event.

I can just hear my aunt now, shrieking that Trump's "healing" and subsequent touting of same means he's probably the Anti-Christ.
posted by droplet at 2:51 PM on October 11, 2020 [1 favorite]

There's a higher risk of serious illness from COVID as you get older, but it isn't inevitable.

Presumably being the head of state of a world superpower improves outcomes, as does becoming infected months after several other heads of state.

Definitely agree that there's a large chance for consequences down the road from whatever treatments the president had...but months of data, dedicated hospital wing, experimental drugs, and an unlimited budget do wonders for your health.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 2:52 PM on October 11, 2020 [6 favorites]

I can just hear my aunt now, shrieking that Trump's "healing" and subsequent touting of same means he's probably the Anti-Christ.

Well, technically, you can't prove that she's wrong...
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:53 PM on October 11, 2020 [7 favorites]

I was thinking more that because he apparently eats horribly and is obese that those factors would've laid him low, but I guess some people luck out in that department as well.

It's not luck. He has literally got a mini hospital in his home. He has a round the clock team of doctors and can string-pull his way to the very best of the best in terms of treatment. There's luck there, but no small part of it is that he has extraordinary access to extraordinary medicine, and he's still being propped up by some serious steroids and even then we don't know how much of his recovery is spin.
posted by Jilder at 3:12 PM on October 11, 2020 [15 favorites]

Reporters should be able to recognize in advance what lies he will tell and bait him. Ask him, Is it possible that you were infected with a weak strain? He will answer it was a tough strain, the toughest -- when there is no way to support his statement.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:45 PM on October 11, 2020 [8 favorites]

At the same time, if people think "he should be dead" means that the illness was faked, absolutely no it doesn't. I personally know 3 people over 70 who have had COVID. All had mild cases and none were hospitalized. All have some sort of pre-existing condition, as most people over 70 tend to do, but it isn't like an automatic death sentence. It's just way more of a risk of death/serious complications with age, but plenty of people have gotten it and pulled through.

But I agree with those who say that in this case, it's much too early to be saying anything about the outcome.
posted by Miko at 3:47 PM on October 11, 2020 [9 favorites]

The best indication of his condition we have is that he gave an 18 minute speech from a balcony. So on one hand he looked and spoke normally during the speech. On the other hand, he didn't go for longer even though there's nothing more in the world he wants than give a 2 hour speech to show his stamina.

So this gives you a pretty decent bracket of where he is right now.
posted by rainy at 3:51 PM on October 11, 2020 [9 favorites]

This is a great example of the biases in the way we think and in the way news is reported and consumed. We right-thinking people have been appropriately upset about the overall illness and death numbers, which are tragically enormous. But when the mortality rate is under five percent (or even less than that - precise stats are still unknown), by definition that means the vast majority of cases don't end in death.

For every tragic death that's reported, 19 more lives haven't ended. Of course "severe illness" percentages are higher, but still far from a majority, even among the over-70 population.

This was my quiet fear, which I was afraid to verbalize even to myself when he came down with COVID-19: recovery was statistically likely, with all the attendant negative repercussions for the public discourse, cf. Bolsanaro, Johnson, etc.
posted by PhineasGage at 4:16 PM on October 11, 2020 [11 favorites]

For every tragic death that's reported, 19 more lives haven't ended. Of course "severe illness" percentages are higher, but still far from a majority, even among the over-70 population.

That hand waving away of "severe illness" was such a masterstroke that QE2 herself is jealous of your skills.

To put it into perspective, 5% CFR is roughly the equivalent of taking your life to a roulette wheel, putting half your life on red and putting the other half on black, and praying you don't come up 0 or 00.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:36 PM on October 11, 2020 [1 favorite]

Agreeing with everyone above who wrote that it isn't a given that one dies from the virus, and also that Trump isn't necessarily well yet. One thing he has for him, apart from being president and acces to the best healthcare in the world is that he has never smoked. At least here in Denmark, smoking seems to be a predictor for severe illness and death with COVID-19 (we smoke a lot). But long-term illness seems to hit randomly, young and old, healthy and vulnerable.
I don't want him to die, I want him to go to jail.
posted by mumimor at 4:42 PM on October 11, 2020 [4 favorites]

I wasn't waving anything away, Your Childhood Pet Rock - you're making my point. The statistics are horrible, and none of us would want to risk them for ourselves. But even an aging, unhealthy gasbag like him is more likely than not to survive COVID-19, which meant (and still means) that all the dire predictions and expectation-setting is especially risky politically.
posted by PhineasGage at 4:56 PM on October 11, 2020 [10 favorites]

I was always divided over what him dying from this would mean, politically; it could have had several different outcomes as regards the election.

The thing about him surviving and saying "I AM A GOD AND CAN NEVER DIE" is that he's still fragile and the idea of him being susceptible has already been introduced. We know COVID has long-term effects, we know that he's constantly manipulating information about himself, we know his "doctors" are less than reputable, we know he's been acting pretty off. The only people who can relax and agree with his self-assessment are the cult followers who were never going to give up on him.

Anyone else has just been through two weeks of genuine questions about his physical and mental health, and especially his cavalier attitude to spreading the virus, questions about his veep also being infected, and so on. Even if you were wanting him to win in November, could you be certain he or Pence would make it to the next election without further meltdowns and emergencies? It's not a reassuring speculation. And that helps Biden.
posted by emjaybee at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2020 [3 favorites]

Anyone else has just been through two weeks of genuine questions about his physical and mental health

I though it had only been a week and a couple of days? I mean, we’ve been questioning his physical and mental health for years, but specifically in relation to covid has been less than two weeks.
posted by saucysault at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2020 [1 favorite]

someone in here or a prior thread said that with his age + comorbidites, the chance of death was closer to 30%. while that is still technically more likely to survive than not, i don't think it's a major cognitive distortion to have some pretty dire predictions / expectation setting stuff arise when the president has around a 1 in 3 chance of kicking the bucket
posted by lazaruslong at 7:30 PM on October 11, 2020 [3 favorites]

the issue is that if the dipshit were to suffer - visibly suffer - from Covid-19, it would probably save lives inasmuch as his fan base would realize that the pandemic is not a fucking game and start taking the basic precautions, but of course he can’t even get that right
posted by um at 8:16 PM on October 11, 2020 [19 favorites]

But the quality of care and the fact that they caught it early pushes it down somewhat from 30%, I imagine. On the other hand, instead of resting and recovering he pushes himself to give speeches and interviews, and that surely increases the chance of complications. On the third hand, the only thing we can do is wait and see.
posted by rainy at 8:19 PM on October 11, 2020 [1 favorite]

Thoughts and prayers, rainy. Don't forget those!
posted by Jilder at 8:56 PM on October 11, 2020

I wonder if Maureen Scalia got it. I'm sure she was swarmed at that event.

I was curious, too, and this popped up: Justice Scalia's Son Apologizes To His Parish For Not Wearing Mask At White House.
posted by amanda at 9:14 PM on October 11, 2020

And it’s more than dying as a concern, though obviously a concern. It could turn you into a long hauler - so not only are you a loser for catching it, it still beat you.
posted by tilde at 4:52 AM on October 12, 2020

As soon as Trump got the corticosteroids you know he ordered the docs to keep giving them "just until the election".

I have been obsessively wondering if he knows that once he gets re-elected there is no reason for any of his handlers to keep him alive. As long as they can keep him juiced up through November 3rd then they can steal the election and stay in power. But once that is done, Pence is better for what they need to do now.

So I wonder if he is paranoid enough to realize that. It doesn't seem like it, because for all he's a megalomaniac narcissist he doesn't seem to be very paranoid.
posted by winna at 5:47 AM on October 12, 2020 [6 favorites]

He's not out of the woods yet.
He's rambled incoherently about being practically immortal on the phone a few times, almost managed to walk up a staircase and not pass out and then only stood on the same balcony for 18 minutes the next day. Plus occasionally rage tweeting from the corticosteroid rollercoaster seat he's in, and/or handing the phone over to designated tweeters. He may be in desperate need of a park ranger for all we actually know about his condition.
posted by Harry Caul at 5:49 AM on October 12, 2020 [6 favorites]

(day one of barrett confirmation hearing commences here; RBG obit thread appears to still be open, here.) not modist; just...engaged.
posted by 20 year lurk at 6:13 AM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]

Exactly. A higher risk does not equal a 100% chance.

Likewise, an 85% chance of Trump losing the election is not a sure thing. Trump winning is about the same as the odds of a family with three children being all girls.
posted by JackFlash at 7:50 AM on October 12, 2020 [5 favorites]

I think the risks of Covid-19 are best understood collectively rather than individually, in that the risks of Covid-19 for any individual are comparatively small, but the risks of Covid-19 for society are comparatively large. This is why collective measures against Coronavirus work well and individual measures less so. So I think it's to be expected for Trump to survive Covid-19 unscathed.
posted by dmh at 8:18 AM on October 12, 2020 [23 favorites]

So his doctor just said he's had consecutive negative tests. Does that means he's...totally free from covid? Putting aside the downstream impacts from all the drugs AND the potential long-hauler effects (both big ifs, I know), is he now as free and clear (and healthy) as someone who's never had covid? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I seem to have heard about people being well and then having a relapse. Is he out of the woods with that now?
posted by triggerfinger at 4:24 PM on October 12, 2020

Either way, he's going to talk like Bolsonaro for the next few days, and people will die as a result.
posted by ocschwar at 4:37 PM on October 12, 2020

Trump campaign is hitting Wisconsin hard this week. Eric Trump had two events today, one of which was indoors at a bowling alley with 200 people, Ivanka Trump and Mike Pence have events scheduled and Dear Leader himself announced that he'll be visiting Saturday. I fear for my home. Our cases have been spiking badly here.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 4:38 PM on October 12, 2020 [1 favorite]

So his doctor just said he's had consecutive negative tests. Does that means he's...totally free from covid?

His doctor has said a lot of things, and people using his stationary have sent out letters saying a lot of things. Some of them have made sense. Some of them haven't. Some of them have put serious doubt around the actual timelines of testing, exposure, treatment and recovery, and around the believability of what we have been hearing and who has been saying it.

We know that the man at the top is a bloated gasbag who never gives a straight answer when he has any other option. We know that looking strong and powerful is his greatest concern, particularly in an election season when Trump Is The Manliest Man is his primary selling point for his voter base. We know how important it is to his reelection prospects for him to minimize the impact of COVID-19, to claim that he has been correct all along about how it's all been overblown by the left, and to spin every single story in his favor.

We are never, ever, ever going to know the truth about how COVID actually affected Trump, how much of a broomstick they needed to prop him up with, and how it will continue to affect him in the future.

Ever.
posted by delfin at 5:05 PM on October 12, 2020 [17 favorites]

Too-Ticky: "Exactly. A higher risk does not equal a 100% chance."

So, you're saying it's 50/50.
posted by signal at 5:13 PM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]

I have been obsessively wondering if he knows that once he gets re-elected there is no reason for any of his handlers to keep him alive.

They were perfectly happy manipulating reagan's foggy brain for years in the 80s, why change something that works perfectly well.
posted by StarkRoads at 5:37 PM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]

Once Trump and Manafort had control of the RNC, I'm sure job #1 was getting blackmail on everyone as Roy Cohn would have done, if they didn't already have it from the previous Russian RNC hack.
posted by benzenedream at 7:25 PM on October 12, 2020 [4 favorites]

ocschwar > ...Either way, he's going to talk like Bolsonaro for the next few days, and people will die as a result.

What Bolsonaro’s COVID-19 Case Tells Us About Trump’s — Donald Trump’s political cousin in Brazil has followed the populist playbook to a T. It’s worked wonders for him., Christian Paz, October 3, 2020:

PHOTO: [Bolsonaro and Trump shake hands.] Mark Wilson/Getty

They’ve both resisted social distancing, lashed out against lockdowns, and compared the coronavirus to the flu. They’ve each played down the severity of their countries’ outbreaks, attacked experts (including within their own government), attended large political events often without wearing masks, and hyped the unproven benefits of hydroxychloroquine. Now that President Donald Trump has, like his Brazilian counterpart, Jair Bolsonaro, months earlier, tested positive for COVID-19, a question remains: Will he, too, manage to emerge from this health crisis not simply physically unscathed, but politically empowered?

Well before the coronavirus pandemic, analysts, critics, and journalists had likened Bolsonaro to Trump, dubbing the Brazilian leader the “Trump of the Tropics.” The pair share a nationalist worldview, a willingness to embrace authoritarian tendencies, and a commitment to a strongman persona. Since being elected, Bolsonaro has even adopted Trump’s “fake news” clarion call, and seems to be the only Latin American leader who has a genuinely personal relationship with the American president.

The comparison has crystallized, however, during the pandemic. Much remains unclear about the severity of Trump’s case, and the two countries obviously differ, but the similarities are striking...

More in the article. They may talk the same talk, but can they walk the same walk?
posted by cenoxo at 8:31 PM on October 12, 2020

Not if there's stairs involved.
posted by weed donkey at 8:40 PM on October 12, 2020 [12 favorites]

Or, as Jamie Zawinski put it: “COVID is a Republican (to the tune of “I'm Afraid Of Americans”)”.
posted by acb at 2:46 AM on October 13, 2020 [1 favorite]

Exactly. A higher risk does not equal a 100% chance. That means that some lucky people will just waltz through. And since, as we've found out, there is no justice in the universe... well, it is what it is.

Also he received one of only a handful of compassionate use grants of a very promising, expensive, and rare experimental treatment. If he weren't President he may well have been hospitalized for longer, and possibly considerably longer. REGN-COV2 isn't hydroxychloroquine or injecting bleach; it's possibly the real deal (it's obviously too early to say for sure but like I said it shows promise.)
posted by Justinian at 2:54 AM on October 13, 2020 [3 favorites]

Trump holds packed rally after Covid diagnosis as he struggles in polls
posted by mumimor at 3:43 AM on October 13, 2020 [2 favorites]

Now that President Donald Trump has, like his Brazilian counterpart, Jair Bolsonaro, months earlier, tested positive for COVID-19, a question remains: Will he, too, manage to emerge from this health crisis not simply physically unscathed, but politically empowered?

As that article points out, though, "politically empowered" for Bolsonaro is 1) an approval high point of 40% - Trump has maintained a fairly steady range of 40 to 45% for almost all of his presidency and 2) pretty directly a result of a massive national cash relief program - the sort of thing that Trump has had no interest in and one that he couldn't unilaterally create even if he wanted to (Congress has control of the purse strings.) And if that relief program stops or gets drastically reduced, which may well have to happen as Brazil is simply not the economic powerhouse the US is, Bolsonaro could be in real election trouble again.

IOW, the two countries are different enough that comparing Bolsonaro to Trump only goes so far, maybe especially when trying to predict their popularity and public perception and ultimately their fates.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:31 AM on October 13, 2020 [4 favorites]

Im not sure im buying the Bolsonaro parallels - Trump is still wearing the giant IV covering bandage on his hand and the election is 21 days away.

Meanwhile hes doubling down on attacks on America's favorite doctor Fauci who had seemed prepared to take any level of shit the president sent his way in exchange for staying in proximity to the COVIDresponse, but may have drawn a line at being misquoted out of context in a Trump campaign spot.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 6:05 AM on October 13, 2020 [5 favorites]

Check this out - Youtube showed me a thumbnail for a Trump ad, captioned BIDEN CAN'T THINK FOR HIMSELF over Biden's face hovering over text, with a highlighted quote about listening to what scientists say and therefore always wearing a mask. What a fool Biden is! Weak, letting scientists and public health experts tell him what to think.

This is our President, and this is what he is running on in the home stretch.
posted by thelonius at 6:15 AM on October 13, 2020 [7 favorites]

It was pointed out to me that Herbert Hoover, in the midst of fumbling the great depression, pulled 40% of the popular vote in 1932.

40% seems to be the floor for an incumbent American President; no matter how incompetent or racist, 40% of Americans will vote for you.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 6:16 AM on October 13, 2020 [15 favorites]

It was pointed out to me that Herbert Hoover, in the midst of fumbling the great depression, pulled 40% of the popular vote in 1932.

The situation in 1932 was Congress's fault far more than Hoover's.
posted by ocschwar at 6:40 AM on October 13, 2020

The situation in 1932 was Congress's fault far more than Hoover's.

...and people back then were able to clearly parse responsibility and blame among elected officials, unlike any time before or since? Hoover shouldered plenty of blame for the Depression, earned or not--Roosevelt's 1932 campaign song was "Happy Days Are Here Again" for goodness' sake.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:13 AM on October 13, 2020 [3 favorites]

Also:

1932 was a political realignment election: not only did Roosevelt win a sweeping victory over Hoover, but Democrats significantly extended their control over the U.S. House, gaining 101 seats, and also gained 12 seats in the U.S. Senate to gain control of the chamber. Twelve years of Republican leadership came to an end, and 20 consecutive years of Democratic control of the White House began.

That election should be a source of legitimate optimism among Americans who actually care about other people and thus want Trump and his ilk gone from power.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:18 AM on October 13, 2020 [14 favorites]

Dutch researchers report first death from COVID-19 reinfection
posted by mumimor at 7:35 AM on October 13, 2020 [4 favorites]

Anyone who says they don't want Trump to die because they want him to go to jail is going to get the worst of both worlds.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:54 AM on October 13, 2020 [13 favorites]

I don't think that saying that, or not saying it, will make a lick of difference.
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:57 AM on October 13, 2020 [7 favorites]

I think he should go to prison, but I don't think he will. I just want him to be humiliated next month.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:08 AM on October 13, 2020 [5 favorites]

the worst of both worlds.

Trump becomes immortal, and then he puts all the Democrats in jail?

That seems less like the worst of both worlds and more like the worst of all possible worlds.
posted by box at 8:09 AM on October 13, 2020 [12 favorites]

What a fool Biden is! Weak, letting scientists and public health experts tell him what to think.

This is our President, and this is what he is running on in the home stretch.

Trump honestly believes that he is the top expert/no one knows more than him in at least a couple dozen different disciplines. Of course he is going to "think" for himself.
posted by Mitheral at 7:42 PM on October 13, 2020 [2 favorites]

The situation in 1932 was Congress's fault far more than Hoover's.

Ah yes, well commemorated in the "Congressville" camps of unhoused and unemployed people that sprang up around the country.
posted by eviemath at 8:28 PM on October 13, 2020 [13 favorites]

Ah yes, well commemorated in the "Congressville" camps

*doffs boffin hat*
I think you meant to say "Longworthville" camps.
My work here is done.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:30 AM on October 14, 2020 [3 favorites]

Given that oschwar contrasted Hoover with Congress, not with Longworth, that wouldn't have worked as sarcasm, no.
posted by eviemath at 4:18 AM on October 14, 2020 [2 favorites]

Let's rein it in people, we've got to learn how to get through a politics post without re-litigating the 1932 primaries.
posted by skewed at 6:33 AM on October 14, 2020 [70 favorites]

That seems less like the worst of both worlds and more like the worst of all possible worlds.

psh, that's the best outcome in this, the best of all possible worlds. at least that's how some book told me i should think, to speak candidly. just don't forget to tend your garden.
posted by lazaruslong at 7:26 AM on October 14, 2020 [7 favorites]

Given that oschwar contrasted Hoover with Congress, not with Longworth ...
yes but but but Longworth, see, was Speaker! So he kinda was Congress and so and so, see... Ooof.

I’ll see myself out
posted by From Bklyn at 8:44 AM on October 14, 2020 [1 favorite]

yes but but but

Exactly. Yes, but... that wasn't relevant to my point. See, it was a joke, let explain it to you....
posted by eviemath at 1:28 PM on October 14, 2020 [1 favorite]

Barron Trump has apparently now tested positive for COVID-19 but is showing no symptoms.
posted by Slothrup at 1:47 PM on October 14, 2020 [2 favorites]

*doffs boffin hat*

Pedantically, I think you mean *dons boffin hat*.

I, too, shall see myself out.
posted by darkstar at 1:54 PM on October 14, 2020 [4 favorites]

Sorry to hear about Barron.
posted by SPrintF at 2:43 PM on October 14, 2020 [1 favorite]

"Dons" and "doffs" are super easy to remember if you think of them as putting d'on a hat, and then taking it d'off.
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:47 PM on October 14, 2020 [12 favorites]

Just what we need, a doffin' boffin.
posted by flabdablet at 5:47 PM on October 14, 2020 [9 favorites]

(would you settle for a puffin muffin?)
posted by kaibutsu at 6:03 PM on October 14, 2020 [7 favorites]

Let's rein it in people, we've got to learn how to get through a politics post without re-litigating the 1932 primaries.

We wouldn't have to if in 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the -- anyone? Anyone? -- The Great Depression, hadn't passed the -- anyone? Anyone? -- The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act, which -- anyone? Raised or lowered? Raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government.

Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression.
posted by rhizome at 7:40 PM on October 14, 2020 [34 favorites]

I've updated my weekly coronavirus report for the week ending October 10th. The numbers are getting bad again.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:01 PM on October 15, 2020 [7 favorites]

Chris Christie says he spent 7 days in ICU before recovering from Covid:

"Having had this virus, I can also assure those who have not had it of a few things. It is something to take very seriously," Christie said.
"The ramifications are wildly random and potentially deadly. No one should be happy to get the virus and no one should be cavalier about being infected or infecting others."

posted by gwint at 4:44 PM on October 15, 2020 [17 favorites]

Sounds like a bit of a wedge emerging between Beach Chair Christie and Dear Leader.
posted by Miko at 5:56 PM on October 15, 2020 [3 favorites]

I usually shit on both of them

Bill Burr - Thoughts on Trump | Election 2020
posted by philip-random at 11:29 PM on October 15, 2020

Sounds like a bit of a wedge emerging between Beach Chair Christie and Dear Leader.

If not wedgie.
posted by y2karl at 1:01 AM on October 16, 2020 [2 favorites]

Sounds like a bit of a wedge emerging between Beach Chair Christie and Dear Leader.

and here I thought meatloaf came by the slice
posted by From Bklyn at 10:40 AM on October 16, 2020 [3 favorites]

"Dons" and "doffs" are super easy to remember if you think of them as putting d'on a hat, and then taking it d'off.

That's actually literally the real etymology! They're contractions of "do on" and "do off". Back in the day you could also dout the fire and dup the gate.

If there's going to be a world-destroying president, there might as well be fun word facts.
posted by trig at 10:48 AM on October 16, 2020 [33 favorites]

Trump and Hope Hicks campaigning and maskless in Nevada, via AP News Oct. 18: With Trump seated in the front row at the nondenominational International Church of Las Vegas, the senior associate pastor, Denise Goulet, said God told her the president is the apple of his eye and would secure a second term. “At 4:30, the Lord said to me, ‘I am going to give your president a second win,’” she said, telling Trump, “you will be the president again.”

Trump offered brief remarks, saying “I love going to churches” and that it was “a great honor” to attend the service. The president also said that “we have a group on the other side that doesn’t agree with us,” and he urged people to “get out there on Nov. 3 or sooner” to vote. He dropped a wad of $20 bills in the collection plate before leaving. Despite the pandemic, there were no efforts to social distance or limit singing, which health officials classify as a high-risk activity. Few attendees wore masks inside the church.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:40 PM on October 18, 2020 [7 favorites]

He dropped a wad of $20 bills in the collection plate before leaving.

Nah, you just know it was a $20 bill wrapped around a wad of ones. It's an old grift.
posted by JackFlash at 6:36 PM on October 18, 2020 [28 favorites]

This half-hour piece from NowThis summarizes the Trump administration's record on COVID-19 pretty thoroughly:

The Full Story of Trump and COVID-19 | NowThis (YT)

Sorry if this is a repeat; searches failed to find it in this or previous Trump threads.
posted by flabdablet at 7:01 PM on October 18, 2020 [6 favorites]

He dropped a wad of $20 bills in the collection plate before leaving.

My favorite story from the last campaign was when Trump tried to drop a $20 bill on the communion tray going around. For real. He didn't know the difference.
posted by JackFlash at 9:44 PM on October 18, 2020 [8 favorites]

Remember "baby Christian"? Ah, innocent times...
posted by clawsoon at 5:21 AM on October 19, 2020

One thing that has me worried is that I haven't seen a poll on fivethirtyeight with a start date past October 13th which has Biden up double digits. Lots of polls taken in the first two weeks of October with him up that much, but so far nothing done completely in the third week which does. I worry about the fickleness of American swing voters.
posted by clawsoon at 5:26 AM on October 19, 2020 [1 favorite]

Do people still believe in “swing voters” as a thing? Like as in people are still deciding who to vote for and aren’t sure?
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 6:19 AM on October 19, 2020 [2 favorites]

Are you asking if there are people who haven't had their solipsism successfully pandered to yet?
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:48 AM on October 19, 2020

Do people still believe in “swing voters” as a thing? Like as in people are still deciding who to vote for and aren’t sure?

Isn't 85.2% of the argument for Biden that he could appeal to folks who were on the fence about Trump? People who might be persuaded to swing?
posted by clawsoon at 6:51 AM on October 19, 2020

To wit: "A new WSJ/NBC News poll of registered voters found 10% saying they currently support the candidate of the party whose presidential nominee they opposed in 2016—a cohort that consists overwhelmingly of Trump voters who say they now back Mr. Biden."
posted by clawsoon at 6:55 AM on October 19, 2020 [6 favorites]

I think that several things can be true at the same time: most people overwhelmingly vote for one party or the other; a lot more people are unreliable voters who either vote for one party or stay home; some people swung from Obama to Trump; some people say they're going to swing from Trump to Biden; the race is so close in a couple of key states that it could be decided by the relatively-small number of 2016 Trump voters who might go for Biden.

I don't know. I think that optimism is motivating and despair is paralyzing, so I'm encouraging everyone to be optimistic. And then figure out one thing that you can do in the next two weeks to help get out of the vote. That could be something as simple as reminding people you know about how to vote early. (Early voting is good. You really don't want to wake up on election day with a headache and a moral dilemma. Trump voters will vote anyway, because they don't care if they have COVID and kill a couple of poll workers. We don't have the luxury of amorality.)
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:11 AM on October 19, 2020 [10 favorites]

“At 4:30, the Lord said to me, ‘I am going to give your president a second win,’” she said, telling Trump, “you will be the president again.”

At 4:20, surely.
posted by mazola at 8:06 AM on October 19, 2020 [9 favorites]

I know one guy who voted for Trump and is now gonna vote for Biden. He just doesn't follow or pay attention to politics the same way we here do. But he's a former cop who is now a nurse, so... yeah, you can kinda see the journey there.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:39 AM on October 19, 2020 [7 favorites]

But he's a former cop who is now a nurse, so... yeah, you can kinda see the journey there.

I can see the TV show. Probably a sitcom.
posted by philip-random at 8:53 AM on October 19, 2020 [11 favorites]

With Trump seated in the front row at the nondenominational International Church of Las Vegas

Well that's another lie. They take all denominations.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:31 PM on October 19, 2020 [6 favorites]

I can see the TV show. Probably a sitcom.

He does an informal big brother thing on the side, keeping an eye on the hood, in a manly nurturing kind of way.
posted by infini at 12:34 PM on October 19, 2020 [1 favorite]

We call it: Officer Nightingale
posted by Miko at 4:28 PM on October 19, 2020 [10 favorites]

Nurse Krupke
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:59 PM on October 19, 2020 [6 favorites]

clawsoon: "One thing that has me worried is that I haven't seen a poll on fivethirtyeight with a start date past October 13th which has Biden up double digits. "

I know what you mean - I would like to see Biden ahead by, like, 60% in every poll, personally - but there have been some explanations of why the current numbers are still pretty good:

Who's undecided? Donald Trump's toughest hurdle to pull off a win: Most minds are made up (Joey Garrison, USA Today) notes the large difference in number of undecided voters in 2020 compared to 2016, and also notes that Biden has been polling above 50% pretty consistently, which is something that wasn't true for Clinton.

Polls Missed The Mark In 2016. But Experts Say Things Are Different In 2020. (Laurel White, Wisconsin Public Radio) points out the much lower support for third-party candidates in 2020 vs. 2016.

Like ArbitraryAndCapricious, for me, optimism is motivating and despair is paralyzing, so I'm reading every positive poll I can find while nodding along with the Biden/Harris exhortation to campaign like we're trailing. I've just started texting to get out the vote, and it's been satisfying and energizing.
posted by kristi at 5:03 PM on October 19, 2020 [7 favorites]

There is so much speculation regarding undecided, but I think a lot of undecided are those on the edge of turning against Trump. I won't go into judging their thought processes, but I support those who may be ready to jump ship.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:38 AM on October 23, 2020 [2 favorites]

I submitted my ballot the other day, so I pretty much just feel like I'm in freefall with no idea whether there's a net down there to catch me.
posted by rhizome at 1:06 PM on October 23, 2020 [6 favorites]

Mitch McConnell showed up with shockingly extensive bruising on his hands on the 20th, and since blood thinners have been touted as a treatment for Covid-19 and he's evading questions about when he was last tested, I think we can assume he probably has it.
posted by jamjam at 1:46 PM on October 23, 2020 [7 favorites]

Yeah that Mitch stuff is quite a turn. Hopefully McGrath takes it as a cue to step up her activities, really putting pressure on Mitch to do more campaigning and tax his system, maybe follow all of his campaign appearances with her own in the same place the next day, chasing him. I realize this might sound cruel.
posted by rhizome at 1:54 PM on October 23, 2020 [4 favorites]

Since McConnell is maybe ten points up on McGrath I doubt she’ll be able to set his schedule, alas.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:00 PM on October 23, 2020

and he's evading questions about when he was last tested, I think we can assume he probably has it.
Yes, it's the lies that tell.
I really don't get why he is so much ahead. He is mean, a grifter, and doesn't seem to be doing anything for Kentucky. The swampiest swamp turtle. What do people from Kentucky see?
posted by mumimor at 1:53 AM on October 24, 2020 [3 favorites]

I keep hoping for a miracle on Election Day that sees McConnell booted, but I know that’s not exactly likely. As far as Election Day itself goes, I’m not worried about the polls. They are indeed different this time around. What I’m worried about is republican fuckery with the election. If this is a fair election, Trump is gone.
posted by azpenguin at 5:43 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]

I think we can assume he probably has it

Makes me happier to imagine him copping a smack in the mouth after getting in a fistfight.
posted by flabdablet at 5:57 AM on October 24, 2020 [2 favorites]

What do people from Kentucky see?

My best guess: a white dude who sticks it to the same people they've been conditioned to otherize and fear (you know, your basic undesirables: Democrats, hippies, non-White people generally, most women, anybody too smart, etc.). There may also be some inferiority-complex-based appeal to a senator from little ol' Kentucky climbing all the way to Senate Majority Leader.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:03 AM on October 24, 2020 [9 favorites]

blood thinners have been touted as a treatment for Covid-19 and he's evading questions about when he was last tested, I think we can assume he probably has it.

Mcconnell has a bad ticker and has had I believe bypass surgery in the past. It's not at all unusual for someone his age and health to be on coumadin or a similar blood thinner, anti clotting medication. Let's not wildly speculate, this ghoul can suffer from the illnesses we know he has
posted by dis_integration at 8:19 AM on October 24, 2020 [9 favorites]

Let's not wildly speculate, this ghoul can suffer from the illnesses we know he has
Absolutely, but he is still lying about it.
posted by mumimor at 8:25 AM on October 24, 2020 [3 favorites]

Drudge Report lead links:

DONALD TAKES ON 'BORAT'...
PAPER: As Trump fights for political future, outcome could affect his company, which owes more than $400 million...
MAG: China Paid Trump At Least $5.4 Million Since He Took Office, Via Mysterious Tower Lease...
Paranoia and finger-pointing...
56M ALREADY VOTED!
Highest rate of turnout since 1908?
Battleground postal delays persist...
DEMS '96% CHANCE' OF KEEPING HOUSE...
'73% CHANCE' OF TAKING SENATE...
PA POLL: BIDEN +7...
Breaks all-time television spending record...
Sign ninjas busy at night...
National Guard called to thwart 'NKorean cyberattack' in Louisiana...
Maskless Trump Fan Blocks Masked Biden Supporter at Florida Poll...
Inside campaign to 'pizzagate' Hunter...
AMPED-UP DON JR. DEFENDS...
MAG: The Republican Identity Crisis...
Mueller deputy predicts President will pardon himself...
Could he contest even a landslide?
The Needle goes away as probability experts assess race...
posted by philip-random at 11:10 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]

Mike Pence will not quarantine after four aides test positive for coronavirus

Pence is expected to hold a rally in Kinston, North Carolina later on Sunday.
posted by MrVisible at 7:59 AM on October 25, 2020 [5 favorites]

Of course Pence isn't quarantining. Because he is an "essential worker." (LOL)
posted by PhineasGage at 8:45 AM on October 25, 2020

Killing your family, friends, and supporters to own the libs. Dude, at least it's an ethos.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:51 AM on October 25, 2020 [7 favorites]

Just like when he was governor of Indiana, Mike Pence is again ignoring the aides virus
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:29 AM on October 25, 2020 [28 favorites]

What do people from Kentucky see?

They see Russian pork. "McConnell was among the advocates for lifting sanctions on Oleg Deripaska's ... Company to Invest Millions in New Aluminum Plant in Mitch McConnell's State"
posted by srboisvert at 11:46 AM on October 25, 2020 [7 favorites]

Mitch McConnell showed up with shockingly extensive bruising on his hands on the 20th, and since blood thinners have been touted as a treatment for Covid-19 and he's evading questions about when he was last tested

He's also refusing to answer questions about the mysterious disappearance of Jedi Council member Mace Windu.
posted by sexyrobot at 2:41 PM on October 25, 2020 [18 favorites]

Trump administration admits that they tried to cover up covid positive status of close Pence aides and that they've given up on pretending to try to control pandemic. Why are they letting Marc Meadows talk to the press?
posted by rdr at 5:32 PM on October 25, 2020 [3 favorites]

"The rock-solid principle on which the whole of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation is founded - our fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by our superficial design flaws." - Douglas Adams, from So Long and Thanks for All the Fish.

Under all the bluster and bullying and ignorance and rudeness and intolerance and racism and sexism and ableism and crassness and criminality and narcissism and cruelty and complete lack of taste or decorum that so visibly characterizes the Trump administration is a deep well of total incompetence that just never goes away.
posted by flabdablet at 6:11 PM on October 25, 2020 [25 favorites]

Trump pitches an alternate reality as coronavirus troubles deepen

“We are coming around, we’re rounding the turn, we have the vaccines, we have everything,” Trump said at a rally in Londonderry, N.H., on Sunday. “Even without the vaccines, we’re rounding the turn. It’s going to be over.”

wouldn't want to inspire any sleepless nights but that last sentence sounds like something you'd get from the leader of a suicide cult. Or maybe I've just been reading too much horror stuff, it being the lead up to Hallowe'en and all.
posted by philip-random at 10:53 PM on October 25, 2020

...Under all the bluster and bullying and ignorance and rudeness and intolerance and racism and sexism and ableism and crassness and criminality and narcissism and cruelty and complete lack of taste or decorum that so visibly characterizes the Trump administration is a deep well of total incompetence that just never goes away.

Trump Just Signed An Executive Order Letting Him Purge Thousands Of Federal Workers For Disloyalty — Even if he loses, the action could sabotage a Biden administration indefinitely., Vanity Fair, Bess Levin, 10/26/2020:

...last week, the White House was relatively, strangely quiet as the president signed [WhiteHouse.gov link] the esoteric-sounding “Executive Order on Creating Schedule F In the Excepted Service.” And that was probably by design; because the action not only gives Trump the power to purge thousands of federal workers—the kind whose job protections have allowed them to deal in facts and stand up to presidential intimidation—and replace them with politically appointed hacks who would spend the next four years doing Trump’s bidding, but it would cripple a Biden administration for months, at a time when it will need to act fast on, among other things, COVID-19....

More in the article. See also Trump just quietly passed an executive order that could destroy a future Biden administration! The Independent; Andrew Feinberg, Washington DC; 10/24/2020.
posted by cenoxo at 10:14 AM on October 27, 2020 [4 favorites]

Yeah, this executive order to strip away protections from apolitical civil servants and politicize their jobs has been ridiculously underreported, in my opinion. This is all part of the larger lie that the United States civil service is a "deep state" with a political agenda. Journalists should be shouting from the rooftops with explainers for why this isn't true, how the civil service actually works, and how this change undermines a century of American progress. But it's too "wonky" and not likely to get enough clicks and ad money, so it's relegated to a minor story.
posted by biogeo at 10:29 AM on October 27, 2020 [11 favorites]

flabdablet, flagged as fantastic because, sadly, it is so very true.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:04 PM on October 27, 2020

Yeah, this executive order to strip away protections...

Another presidential power that should be eliminated or severely drawn down.
posted by rhizome at 9:17 PM on October 27, 2020 [4 favorites]

Is this some sort of conservative pretext to the overriding of Marbury v. Madison? Normally, I would say that is ridiculous conspiracy mongering, but this is 2020 we're talking about here...
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:45 AM on October 28, 2020 [1 favorite]

Yeah, this executive order to strip away protections from apolitical civil servants and politicize their jobs has been ridiculously underreported, in my opinion. This is all part of the larger lie that the United States civil service is a "deep state" with a political agenda. Journalists should be shouting from the rooftops with explainers for why this isn't true, how the civil service actually works, and how this change undermines a century of American progress. But it's too "wonky" and not likely to get enough clicks and ad money, so it's relegated to a minor story.

It's an attempt to revive the spoils system in it's most pernicious form:

Before 1828, moderation had prevailed in the transfer of political power from one U.S. president to another. Andrew Jackson's first inauguration, March 4, 1829, signaled a sharp departure from the past. A group of office seekers attended the event, explaining it as democratic enthusiasm. Jackson supporters had been lavished with promises of positions in return for political support. These promises were honored by a large number of removals after Jackson assumed power. At the beginning of Jackson's administration, fully 919 officials were removed from government positions, amounting to nearly 10 percent of all government postings.[4]:328–33

The Jackson administration aimed at creating a more efficient system where the chain of command of public employees all obeyed the higher entities of government. The hardest changed organization within the federal government proved to be the post office. The post office was the largest department in the federal government, and had even more personnel than the war department. In one year 423 postmasters were deprived of their positions, most with extensive records of good service.[4]:334

Reform
By the late 1860s, citizens began demanding civil service reform. Running under the Liberal Republican Party in 1872, they[clarification needed] were soundly defeated by Ulysses S. Grant.

After the assassination of James A. Garfield by a rejected office-seeker in 1881, the calls for civil service reform intensified. Moderation of the spoils system at the federal level came with the passage of the Pendleton Act in 1883, which created a bipartisan Civil Service Commission to evaluate job candidates on a nonpartisan merit basis. While few jobs were covered under the law initially, the law allowed the President to transfer jobs and their current holders into the system, thus giving the holder a permanent job. The Pendleton Act's reach was expanded as the two main political parties alternated control of the White House every election between 1884 and 1896. After each election the outgoing President applied the Pendleton Act to jobs held by his political supporters. By 1900, most federal jobs were handled through civil service and the spoils system was limited only to very senior positions.

The separation between the political activity and the civil service was made stronger with the Hatch Act of 1939 which prohibited federal employees from engaging in many political activities.

The spoils system survived much longer in many states, counties and municipalities, such as the Tammany Hall machine, which survived well into the 1930s when New York City reformed its own civil service. Illinois modernized its bureaucracy in 1917 under Frank Lowden, but Chicago held on to patronage in city government until the city agreed to end the practice in the Shakman Decrees of 1972 and 1983

And it's one of a surprising number of ways the Trump administration harks back to Jackson (note Jackson's attack on the Post Office, for one small example).

I was stunned to see Trump acknowledge Jackson a few years ago, but considering that an aide had to tell him what Pearl Harbor was, I doubt he came up with that on his own. I'd guess he got it from Bannon.
posted by jamjam at 1:27 PM on October 28, 2020 [6 favorites]

I just saw a clip from Trump's rally in Michigan; he's wearing black gloves with a normal suit and while everyone behind him are not wearing outerwear. People from Michigan: is it really cold out there or is he covering up black and blue hands like McConnell's?
posted by mumimor at 1:30 PM on October 28, 2020 [1 favorite]

The following gallery shows the Michigan rally crowd in cold weather gear: President Donald Trump rally in Lansing, 42 PHOTOS; Detroit News, Oct. 27, 2020. Lansing Weather History for October 27, 2020 lists temperatures in the upper 30s °F.
posted by cenoxo at 10:15 PM on October 28, 2020 [1 favorite]

cenoxo's first link's first picture shows Trump with one hand out of his glove and it looks Cheeto normal.

Mid-upper 30s is Florida cold but it isn't Michigan cold which could explain the difference.
posted by Mitheral at 10:59 PM on October 28, 2020 [2 favorites]

Even without visible leaking, I think the gloves point to a high probability that Trump is on blood thinners, because Covid causes hypercoagulability in many patients, and the reduced circulation in the hands exposure to cold causes in most people could by itself trigger the formation of blood clots in a person with hypercoagulability.
posted by jamjam at 12:23 AM on October 29, 2020

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