A plan to rescue America - President-Elect Biden's Coronavirus response
January 15, 2021 9:42 AM   Subscribe

Following on from two weeks of violent sedition, and the historic second impeachment of the current resident, Joe Biden yesterday laid out his administration's $1.9tn American Rescue Plan in a televised address. Coverage links, and some others from prior megathread inside.

"We not only have an economic imperative to act now — I believe we have a moral obligation."

The plan includes an additional $1.4k in direct payments, an increase of $100 per week and a six month extension for federal unemployment benefits, an increase in rental assistance and extension of the eviction moratorium, a national Coronavirus vaccination program, a $15 minimum wage and much, much more.

Further details on fighting Coronavirus are expected in another address from Biden on Friday afternoon.

Plan coverage: Philadelphia Inquirer, Washington Post, New York Times, CNN, Grauniad.

The Washington Post queried five factual claims in the speech, and were pleasantly surprised to have citations within 15 minutes.

Some links from the previous thread/other places.

Prosecutors believe rioters intended to 'capture and assassinate' elected officials.
Donald Trump leaves office with a 29% approval rating, the lowest of his tenure, and the only President to never rise above 49%.
The rioters came extremely close to capturing Pence.
There is a proposal to honour Officer Eugene Goodman with the Congressional Gold Medal, for leading the mob away.
ProPublica has footage from the seditionists following him, and looking for the electoral college votes.
Trump may try to pardon himself, but there are legal doubts as to whether an impeached President can even use the pardon power when it relates to the impeachment.
After the initial viral videos about police letting them in, more video has become available showing the violence.
The New Yorker has a terrifying account 'Among the Insurrectionists'.

Prior thread.
posted by MattWPBS (1028 comments total) 87 users marked this as a favorite
 
The Biden transition team has also announced that Biden will, on day 1, extend the existing federal student loan suspension program, although they have not indicated how long that suspension will last. Hopefully they take the guesswork out and make it last until the state of emergency related to the pandemic is lifted.
posted by jedicus at 9:48 AM on January 15, 2021 [21 favorites]


Since we're talking the recovery plan can we talk about how it's been super disingenuous for the media to refer to it as a "$2000" stimulus payment when it's just $1400 to pad out the original payment.

And while it's nice that they're trying to follow through on campaign promises, AOC is right.

Whether it's $2000 or $1400 it's fucking criminally shortchanging American citizens for the suffering they've been through at the hands of the Trump administration and COVID-19.

People will still lose their homes, people will still go hungry. It's a pittance and an absolute joke.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:48 AM on January 15, 2021 [38 favorites]


Whether it's $2000 or $1400 it's fucking criminally shortchanging American citizens for the suffering they've been through at the hands of the Trump administration and COVID-19.

Hence, I think, "an increase of $100 per week and a six month extension for federal unemployment benefits, an increase in rental assistance and extension of the eviction moratorium, a national Coronavirus vaccination program, a $15 minimum wage and much, much more."

$400/week in additional unemployment benefits would be an average wage replacement of 86%. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good, especially combined with the rental assistance and eviction moratorium, which I think we could reasonably expect the Biden administration to do a better job of enforcing.

A $15 minimum wage would be a substantial increase in every state. And hopefully it's tied to inflation.
posted by jedicus at 9:54 AM on January 15, 2021 [26 favorites]


From the last thread, "Trump's departure ceremony at Joint Base Andrews on the morning of the 20th is expected to be like a state visit departure event, per admin official familiar with planning. Color guard, military band, 21 gun salute and red carpet all under consideration for event, at the moment." -- Jim Acosta

They should get Giuliani to organise it
posted by glasseyes at 9:54 AM on January 15, 2021 [54 favorites]


$600 + $1400 = $2000.

Yes, everybody understands that, but it still feels dishonest.

More to the point: if this package is the "we've got ten Republicans on board and this is the most they're willing to vote for," then it is a very good package. If this package is what Democrats are asking for before the Republicans start obstructing - which seems far more likely - then it's Biden pre-negotiating himself down in the best (well, worst) Obama-esque style and a very bad sign for governance to come.
posted by mightygodking at 9:55 AM on January 15, 2021 [63 favorites]


Crucially, the proposed new federal minimum wage removes loopholes for exploiting the differently abled and waitstaff. I hope to see the day when servers can more easily refuse to put up with sexist bullshit because they don't rely on tips anymore.
posted by nicoffeine at 10:00 AM on January 15, 2021 [56 favorites]


They should get Giuliani to organise it

Andrew's Joint Base & Total CBD
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 10:01 AM on January 15, 2021 [65 favorites]


I was laid off temporarily because my work is seasonal (I start up again in a couple months). I tried applying for seasonal unemployment benefits (100% legitimate thing to do, BTW) and it turns out someone used my info to work at a pork-processing plant in a town about 50 miles away from where I live. I'm guessing someone used my SS number. So I cannot even apply for benefits.

Calling the unemployment office doesn't even place you on hold anymore. I'm in a queue to get a callback. It's been five business days. I called again with my info only to hear I am indeed still in the queue and that I'm due for a return call.

So in the meantime, I'm SOL. I'm fortunate enough that we can get by in the meantime. But the system is so understaffed and backed up that I've been "on hold" trying to talk to someone for a week.

Our country is broken. It's been purposely broken by the republican party.

(I've taken steps with regard to identity theft and gotten a credit report, so I'm OK as far as that goes)
posted by SoberHighland at 10:01 AM on January 15, 2021 [61 favorites]


I have been and am still confused about the one-time $2000 (or $1400 + $600) thing. It's catchy, and ends up being most of what gets talked about, and it's, like, the 20th most important thing in this proposal. It feels so circular. So on one hand, if that's what is effective politically, why not go bigger? On the other, when I hear policy criticism (as opposed to political criticism) from the left abut how it's not bigger, I'm like ... did you read the rest of the list? There's some good shit in there! Let's talk about that!
posted by feckless at 10:02 AM on January 15, 2021 [11 favorites]


did you ever think it would be a relief to think about the pandemic
posted by schadenfrau at 10:03 AM on January 15, 2021 [51 favorites]


it still feels dishonest.

It's the US media, of course the framing is dishonest; they've been so thoroughly corrupted we should be surprised they still manage to use the alphabet rather than eldritch sigils.
posted by aramaic at 10:03 AM on January 15, 2021 [16 favorites]


> then it's Biden pre-negotiating himself down in the best (well, worst) Obama-esque style and a very bad sign for governance to come

With an impeachment trial and a bunch of FBI investigations dragging members of the GOP to jail, Biden literally has a trump card.
posted by nicoffeine at 10:03 AM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


Wait—is this a combined COVID and USpolitics megathread? Have we created another catchall-topic monster for the mods to stab with their steely knives? It's alive! It's alive!
posted by XMLicious at 10:04 AM on January 15, 2021 [14 favorites]


LIFE is a combined COVID and USpolitics thread, at least in the US.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:05 AM on January 15, 2021 [64 favorites]


Just a reminder that repeated megathreads about political trainwrecks were supposed to be a thing of the past in part to take some strain off the mods.

They seem to have made an exception for recent events, and keeping things civil and low-noise in here would probably be a nice way to thank them (and if you're able to throw a few bucks their way I bet that'd help too... think of it as hazmat pay).

I'm not affiliated with them, just appreciate their hard work.
posted by Riki tiki at 10:06 AM on January 15, 2021 [89 favorites]


"Beau" is a Youtuber broadcasting from what appears to be his garage. Here in the real world, we currently have a dozen Capitol Police, plus still-increasing numbers of state/local police and active-duty military, under investigation for their parts in the coup

Continuing this conversation in this thread because I think this is important:

Amateurs LARPing with tactical gear can easily get a lot of people killed. But what is dangerous is that the perception that there were actual special forces operators in that crowd, well, that gives that mob a measure of credibility in some people's eys.

And since it is not true (see his points on their technique), it needs to be pointed out loud and clear.

Tragedy and farce are not mutually exclusive. People do die in farces. But farces are less inspiring, so it's good to mock that aspect of January 6th.
posted by ocschwar at 10:10 AM on January 15, 2021 [26 favorites]


Just to say, I've had some private communications with a mod about the technically-consensus-violating insurrection of the megathreads in the last week, and word is that they've got their eye on the issue but as of a few days ago, at least, were willing to let it continue and re-appraise the situation day by day.

(At least, that sentiment was conveyed to me when it was insurrection-related USpolitics megathreads only, which is why the gestalt with the US COVID threads caught my eye.)
posted by XMLicious at 10:11 AM on January 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


"These GOP lawmakers trying to backtrack like “I was NOT voting to overturn the election with a lie I fed my white supremacist base, I was simply amplifying concerns that challenge the legitimacy of Black electorates in Philadelphia and Detroit and Latino electorates in Arizona” -- Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
posted by valkane at 10:17 AM on January 15, 2021 [46 favorites]


I'm pretty happy with this quote from Biden, "We should be investing in deficit spending in order to generate economic growth." I was worried that some of the old deficit hawks would get his ear but he seems to be fully into the idea of spending our way out of this.
posted by octothorpe at 10:19 AM on January 15, 2021 [31 favorites]


Aye, if I'm not clear enough in the post, this is intended as a continuation of the recent series of megathreads covering the current US politics shit show. Coronavirus response, sedition, impeachment and all. Other one was getting horrible on mobile.

Title is purely because a bit of hope is better to see each time at the top of the thread/tab than more horror.

Hopefully we can bid a fond adieu to the megathreads again soon.
posted by MattWPBS at 10:20 AM on January 15, 2021 [13 favorites]


As compared to previous megathreads, I feel these have been smaller and nicer.
posted by hypnogogue at 10:22 AM on January 15, 2021 [15 favorites]


Carrying over from the previous thread, when the right wingers are this upset about Biden's economic proposals, it's enough to make moderate AND progressive liberals smile: "Biden Proposal Hijacks Recession for Liberal Wishlist. His plan for economic relief would use the pandemic to enact large, unrelated, permanent expansions of the federal government."
posted by PhineasGage at 10:23 AM on January 15, 2021 [13 favorites]


Heaven forbid a government do anything but react to immediate crises that might imperil me, a rich white man.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:25 AM on January 15, 2021 [18 favorites]


I have bookmarked this webpage to use before and after my meditations. It is extremely calming.
posted by nicoffeine at 10:25 AM on January 15, 2021 [8 favorites]


So, both sides. One man and party literally hijack the nation, but, worse, Biden's plan will hijack, egad, the sacred recession. Such bullshit.
posted by riverlife at 10:26 AM on January 15, 2021 [8 favorites]


This Cult Is Ruining People's Lives - The Triad/Bulwurk

"I don’t know about you, but what happened to Christine Priola scares the hell out of me. Because it suggests that a big chunk of mainstream American politics has moved into the realm of extremist cults. And the object of this new cult devotion isn’t national pride or some random, charismatic figure. It’s the president of the United States and his political party.

Something is happening at a very deep level. Donald Trump, QAnon, the Republican party, and much of American Christianity—both Protestant and Catholic—have congealed into an incoherent belief system. Something that’s not quite politics, not quite religion, and not quite ideology, but rather a hybrid of the most dangerous aspects of all three."
posted by valkane at 10:28 AM on January 15, 2021 [59 favorites]


Washington Post: "Vaccine reserve was already exhausted when Trump administration vowed to release it, dashing hopes of expanded access: States were anticipating a windfall after federal officials said they would stop holding back second doses. But the approach had already changed, and no stockpile exists."
posted by BungaDunga at 10:28 AM on January 15, 2021 [23 favorites]




I really dislike going after Biden for this $1400 thing. It feels disingenuous to act as though a total of $2000 was not what was being asked for. Even AOC was only asking for the checks to be brought up to $2000:
Great, now he can sign @RashidaTlaib and I’s amendment to bring the $600 checks to $2k

FWIW, I agree that $2000 and even $2600 is not enough. But this is moving the goalposts and is not a good look.
posted by peacheater at 10:30 AM on January 15, 2021 [60 favorites]


I'm pretty happy with this quote from Biden, "We should be investing in deficit spending in order to generate economic growth." I was worried that some of the old deficit hawks would get his ear but he seems to be fully into the idea of spending our way out of this.

The two that came out for me were the one in the post ("We not only have an economic imperative to act now — I believe we have a moral obligation.") and this pull quote in the PBS link.
“I know what I just described does not come cheaply, but we simply can’t afford not to do what I’m proposing,” Biden said in a nationwide address. “If we invest now boldly, smartly and with unwavering focus on American workers and families, we will strengthen our economy, reduce inequity and put our nation’s long-term finances on the most sustainable course.”
He's not acting at all reticent about the fact that it has a cost, but putting the reasons to do it front and centre, and in a way that translates easily for people. Talking about the investments and payoffs that go with the borrowing, instead of being scared to acknowledge the borrowing at all.
posted by MattWPBS at 10:31 AM on January 15, 2021 [16 favorites]


If the pushback on the $1400 means we get $2600 total, I'm for it, but if all we get is another $1400 check, I'll take it. Why not try to get as much as we can, while we have power?
posted by SansPoint at 10:32 AM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]


I do want to come back from my original comment and say the change to paying people on disability full wages is one of the best things in the bill.

But also... it should have always been that way, you know?

I don't want to sound like a complete negative nancy, who can't seen how beneficial this all is. But to call it a "wishlist" feels also disingenuous when people on disability and people working as servers in restaurants should have always been paid full wages. It's like... it shouldn't be seen as an achievement as much as the past should be viewed as a stain on our history.

$15 minimum wage is also amazing, but unless its tied to inflation/cost-of-living or something akin to that it will become as useless as $7.25 was after ten years of a bump from $5.15.

This is really, really good stuff, but to me it also feels like... bare minimum? I don't know, it all needs to happen, and I'm happy to hear Biden stumping for it.

I really dislike going after Biden for this $1400 thing.


I actually don't think Biden or the Democrats did that as much as the media did. I think the Democrats were pretty clear on what they were offering, but I saw numerous news stories referencing $2000.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:33 AM on January 15, 2021 [14 favorites]


The shift from "Vote for us and $2000 checks will go out immediately (after the election)" to "$1400 checks, but technically you already got $600" feels like an unforced error; but if eliminating tipped sub-minimum wage & disability sub-minimum wage makes it through that's going to be huge. Tip-credit has been one of those things that's stuck around with nobody willing-and-able to eliminate it (and because it's state-by-state on whether to repeal it or stick with the Federal default it's been easy to overlook if you aren't facing it).
posted by CrystalDave at 10:33 AM on January 15, 2021 [11 favorites]


Heaven forbid a government do anything but react to immediate crises that might imperil me, a rich white man.

I mean, with the entire planet literally catching on fire constantly and unprecedented uncontrollable wildfires burning above the Arctic Circle on multiple continents every summer, I'm sure there aren't going to be any other recessions soon or need for permanency in Biden's changes.

Better to retire it all with the first subsequent Republican administration and convert all the budgetary outlays for the American people to spending on tax cuts for the rich, like with Obama's pandemic-forecasting and global early-warning epidemiology task force programs.
posted by XMLicious at 10:33 AM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


I don't love how the Biden/Harris Admin making necessary, sensible moves will be blamed for a national debt which has risen by almost $7.8 trillion during Trump’s time in office. (Pro Publica). The growth in the annual deficit under Trump ranks as the third-biggest increase, relative to the size of the economy, of any U.S. presidential administration, according to a calculation by a leading Washington budget maven, Eugene Steuerle, co-founder of the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center. And unlike George W. Bush and Abraham Lincoln, who oversaw the larger relative increases in deficits, Trump did not launch two foreign conflicts or have to pay for a civil war.

Agree to disagree, PP.

Yeah, that vaccine reserve went the way of the mask/PPE/hydroxychloroquine/equipment/etc. stockpiles Jared Kushner & friends seized. Guy can't leave anything in a warehouse or on a pallet alone.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:36 AM on January 15, 2021 [8 favorites]


Yes, everybody understands that, but it still feels dishonest.

More to the point: if this package is the "we've got ten Republicans on board and this is the most they're willing to vote for," then it is a very good package. If this package is what Democrats are asking for before the Republicans start obstructing - which seems far more likely - then it's Biden pre-negotiating himself down in the best (well, worst) Obama-esque style and a very bad sign for governance to come.


Yeah, but I feel like this discounts the stimulus this grants to American splainers and pedants: "Well aktually, you already got the 600 dollars. 1400 dollars more is 2000."

Just joking obviously.

I'm pretty interested too to see if they stick to their guns on this proposal or negotiate down due to the demands of the Republicans or even the Manchins in the party.

I have been and am still confused about the one-time $2000 (or $1400 + $600) thing. It's catchy, and ends up being most of what gets talked about, and it's, like, the 20th most important thing in this proposal. It feels so circular. So on one hand, if that's what is effective politically, why not go bigger? On the other, when I hear policy criticism (as opposed to political criticism) from the left abut how it's not bigger, I'm like ... did you read the rest of the list? There's some good shit in there! Let's talk about that!

I agree. I wish there was more coverage of the other elements of the economic aide packages. Those 3000 dollar checks will get eaten up pretty quickly by tax increases if state and local governments need to cover revenue shortfalls because aid gets bargained out by Republicans or the Biden administration decides to pivot to austerity in two years once the crisis passes. However, I've noticed that cash is a tangible item that seems to get through to people in a more visceral way than even something like healthcare.

I'm also interested to see how far Democrats push investigations of Republican colleagues who may have collaborated with the attackers.

Interesting times ahead for sure.
posted by eagles123 at 10:39 AM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Democrats campaigned with the words "Vote for us. If we win, the $2,000 checks will go out the door" even after the Republican-approved $600 was already in people's bank accounts. Whatever they actually, technically meant, I don't know that they get to blame other people for being confused.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 10:39 AM on January 15, 2021 [7 favorites]


His plan for economic relief would use the pandemic to enact large, unrelated, permanent expansions of the federal government.

While this might sound like an unmitigated good, we've already seen a number of people suggest an expansion of the domestic surveillance and carceral state to combat domestic right-wing terrorism. The last thing this country needs is a Patriot Act 2.0, because the failures that led to January 6 had nothing to with any lack of resources or personnel or power of enforcement. What's needed is full recognition of the problem and a restructuring to reflect that, which also reduces anti-leftist violence from at least the federal LEO level.

FWIW, I agree that $2000 and even $2600 is not enough. But this is moving the goalposts and is not a good look.

If tens or hundreds of millions of Americans believed they would be getting a total of $2600, griping about people being unfair to Biden isn't going to do anything to fix that. If it turns out that he would rather expend his political capital starting at a point of compromise and then starting hippy-punching, instead of directly making his case to those millions of Americans, he'll be off to a bad start.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:40 AM on January 15, 2021 [8 favorites]


I was entitled to unemployment and did not receive it after months and months of repeatedly calling and calling, fastidiously filling out online forms, sending handwritten letters, filling out mailed forms, etc. I received a single phone call a half a year later, but it was while I was out in the middle in a downpour. I asked if they could call back tomorrow and they agreed but never did. I wrote another letter. I am now in a different state and do not expect to ever see a penny of this unemployment benefit.

Unemployment benefits are nice and all and I'm sure they help a lot of people, but they should not be limited to the previously-employed anyway.
posted by aniola at 10:43 AM on January 15, 2021 [31 favorites]


Heaven forbid a government do anything but react to immediate crises that might imperil me, a rich white man.

I don't know how much the Dispatch link has gone around enough for the comments section to not represent the normal readership, but I had a quick look at it. There's a reasonable amount of criticism of the article there, and support for measures in the plan.

Non-edit: Answered my own question, only paying subscribers can comment on the article. So the comments are from people who are prepared to pay for a conservative leaning news site.
posted by MattWPBS at 10:44 AM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


I wish we had some reporting on what has happening minute-by-minute in the White House last Wednesday. So far, we've gotten bits and pieces "aides had to push Trump", "Trump was pleased" et cetera, et cetera but but nothing that covers when Trump got back from his rally, when he was informed about the rioting, what channel of TV he was watching (because of course he was), who said what and when. These things are definitely important to solidifying any accusations of sedition and seditious conspiracy.

As it is, it seems to me that Trump fully intended for his crowd to get into the Capitol and "peacefully" pressure Congress (see: Enabling Act of 1933). I do think he was genuinely surprised to see violence against the Capitol Police because a) he views law enforcement as "his" and, therefore, they would gladly let his crowd of "patriots" in and b) he's just that fucking stupid. Hence, his tweets during the middle of riots specifically are trying to call his dogs off the police, but not Congress. He absolutely wanted Congress to be scared and his last tweet of the day makes that point abundantly clear. Further, his actions of calling senators (along with Rudy Giuliani), and asking them to delay while the crowd was pushing against the barriers indicates he was expecting the mob's pressure to help delay while he drummed up "legal" electoral re-votes. But attacking cops? He knows that's a bad look for him.

Based on what we know, I believe this was not just a case of Trump making a fiery speech and the crowd got out of control, like the GOP would like us all to believe. I think it is a case of Trump not realizing or thinking through the complete implications of what he was setting in motion (see point B, above). I think that's about the most charitable interpretation of Trump's actions that I can come up with -- but knowing what, exactly, happened in the White House would be very, very illuminating.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:46 AM on January 15, 2021 [8 favorites]


Jesus christ. Can we not turn this thread into a master class on “Perfect is the enemy of Good”?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:49 AM on January 15, 2021 [155 favorites]


"Mike Pence telephoned Kamala Harris on Thursday to congratulate her and offer his assistance ahead of next week's swearing-in." -- Kyle Griffin, MSNBC
posted by valkane at 10:49 AM on January 15, 2021 [18 favorites]


When $15/hour was first proposed a million years ago it was maybe sufficient, but now really we need a minimum of $27.50. $30/hour should be the floor. $15/hour, shit, DoorDash will charge an $8.99 delivery fee. The rich have benefitted at an all-time pace the past four years, plus quantum easing on steroids, they and the nation can afford $30/hour. As we move away from white supremacy thank God we can also speed away from plantation-like labor policy.
posted by riverlife at 10:50 AM on January 15, 2021 [31 favorites]


Yeah, with the half-hearted, half-assed pathetic attempts to still “fiscal conservative” things... we not only decided to become the global bad guys by giving Trump our nuclear weapons and decided to let the Chinese do the whole at-least-pretending-to-be-the-good-guys thing this century, we bought the Darth Vader / Immortan Joe life support armor package.

Self inflicted wound to the heart of American democracy and global imperial hegemony and now the Republinazis have guaranteed big government, forever.

But, I think we can all see by now, not really an accident: no, it's for the eventual greater glory of the Reich. Eventually we'll have a kind of economic inversion where the military budget just to maintain all of the new crap they build will be bigger than the Jenga'ed^ GDP.

It'll continue to be dual-use though: the leaders will still say it's the Democrats, and lower-income BIPoC, and single mothers, who have foolishly mortgaged everything to foreign investors.
posted by XMLicious at 10:53 AM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


I don't love how the Biden/Harris Admin making necessary, sensible moves will be blamed for a national debt which has risen by almost $7.8 trillion during Trump’s time in office.

We can count on the fact that blame for the Biden/Harris admin and democrats in general will be on blast throughout the right wing propaganda network, just as the silence on that front driven by Trump era policies has been deafening. It is entirely disconnected from policy concerns or any form of reality, it's just catechism, repeat early and repeat often.

So they may as well do the right thing.

Also if possible develop similar media organs to counter right wing propaganda network, because a sufficient mass of GOP voters don't really want things explained to them, you'd need counter propaganda.
posted by wildblueyonder at 10:56 AM on January 15, 2021 [7 favorites]


Big Al 8000, Trump sat in the West Wing and watched live TV coverage for several hours, until it was clear his siege wasn't successful. Six hours of paralysis: Inside Trump’s failure to act after a mob stormed the Capitol (WaPo, Jan. 12, 2021; cached link)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:57 AM on January 15, 2021 [11 favorites]


Seriously. He proposes a $2 trillion stimulus plan and people here are mostly complaining about it?

I guess fuck all those people who are still gonna lose their homes and be on the street after they get that $1400...

Sorry that despite the massive magnitude of what they're doing, it doesn't even scratch the surface of what needs to be fixed in America.

Is that directly the fault of the Biden administration? No. But does it make sense for us to say "it's still not enough?" Yes.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:01 AM on January 15, 2021 [18 favorites]


knowing what, exactly, happened in the White House would be very, very illuminating.

I was going to link to the article Iris Gambol linked to above, but if watching this administration has taught me anything, it’s that there were at least 4 well-placed people in the White House at the time who are already shopping for book deals and not revealing any juicy details until they can get paid for it - even if public knowledge now would make a real difference in the country’s well-being.

I just hope the FBI is also listening in.
posted by Mchelly at 11:03 AM on January 15, 2021 [10 favorites]


Six hours of paralysis? As if Trump might have been willing to yell "stop" if he weren't paralyzed? No, he wasn't paralyzed. He was sitting there in complete command of his facilities enjoying the show.
posted by mono blanco at 11:05 AM on January 15, 2021 [24 favorites]


I think people can hold both notions in their head at once. First, to celebrate that we will have leadership that is not Trump, but who are adults who want to make the place better. Second, to mourn that this is not the kind of democratic socialism a lot of us yearn for that is truly serious about addressing income inequality, racial inequity, climate change, etc. Don't expect folks to stop lobbying for better ideas, even if the choices we face now aren't as dire as they've been the last few years. In some ways, you can expect people to argue more when they feel like the decision makers care about logic and ideas and rational argument.

I know it can be disheartening to hear the critical tone before Trump has even left, but criticism is not impotent rage, which is about all we had before.
posted by rikschell at 11:05 AM on January 15, 2021 [19 favorites]


> I believe this was not just a case of Trump making a fiery speech and the crowd got out of control, like the GOP would like us all to believe. I think it is a case of Trump not realizing or thinking through the complete implications of what he was setting in motion

That framing doesn't give credit where credit is due - which is that disgraced President Trump, with help, actively tried to run a coup.

1. The Capitol Police told the National Guard to only be there for crowd & traffic control without threatening tactical/riot gear.

2. The Pentagon takes 75 minutes just to approve the deployment of the National Guard. And about 4 hours for help to arrive.

3. GOP lawmakers gave "reconnaissance" tours of the capitol building the day before the attack.

4. Panic buttons ripped out of ‘Squad’ member’s office before Capitol riot, aide says

Politico on the coup attempt.
posted by fragmede at 11:06 AM on January 15, 2021 [53 favorites]


The whole release the non-existent vaccine reserve led to my SO wondering what surprises we can expect once Biden is in the White House and has access to Trump era related shenanigans data. Sounds like a good topic for speculation. What loony tunes surprises emerging after the inauguration are you hoping for?
posted by biffa at 11:07 AM on January 15, 2021 [8 favorites]


^^Exactly, rikschell. We can disagree on $1600 vs $2000, on this Biden proposal vs that. That's a normal policy disagreement.

It's very soothing to get back to that type of disagreement.
posted by mono blanco at 11:08 AM on January 15, 2021 [20 favorites]


Any republican who mouths off about the deficit or socialism should just be calmly told one word.

"Unity."
posted by stevis23 at 11:13 AM on January 15, 2021 [18 favorites]


What loony tunes surprises emerging after the inauguration are you hoping for?

Hope isn't the word I choose. I am grimly braced for the atrocities at the border to come to light.
posted by jointhedance at 11:14 AM on January 15, 2021 [25 favorites]


Here's the thing: the only reason Biden's plan has a chance of succeeding is because Dems now control the Senate. And the only reason Dems control the Senate is because of voters in Georgia, some of whom were voting for the first time in their entire lives, who stood in the cold, in a pandemic, for hours, so they could cast their vote and elect two Democratic senators from Georgia. And what those voters heard and read, verbatim, in the days before they voted, was: "Vote for Dems and $2,000 checks will go out the door."

If those voters who made this miracle happen interpreted that promise to mean they would be getting a $2,000 survival check in January, THEN WE HAVE TO KEEP THAT PROMISE. No semantics, no quibbles, no "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good," no telling them to just read the entire Biden plan and appreciate the broader context.

We just keep our promise. Because that's how we build power. That's how we win AGAIN.

I am not saying "we should keep our promises to voters" because I hate Democrats and love undermining them and want to see them fail. I'm saying it because I want to win.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 11:14 AM on January 15, 2021 [70 favorites]


This thread has gone off the tracks already. The US, and the world, is still in the middle of a huge crisis. No one knows what will happen in the next five days. I have opinions on the Biden agenda, but at this point I feel they are a distraction.
IMO a failure to convict Trump and his followers will make any Biden policies mute. 400 or 1600 or 2000 dollars? Whatever. The Trumpists are still at the helm, and progress will not happen, neither incremental liberal progress or radical socialist progress until we can stop them from setting the agenda.
posted by mumimor at 11:15 AM on January 15, 2021 [43 favorites]


> ...has access to Trump era related shenanigans data.

You think they're not destroying files as we banter about here? (Or, for that matter, subliterate President Trump ever actually took notes or wrote orders?)
posted by at by at 11:15 AM on January 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


There is now an attempt to archive all the videos uploaded to Parler from the siege. By looking at the geocodes, the ones from the Capitol can be easily located.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:16 AM on January 15, 2021


Before we rightly turn all our attention forward, I'd just like to pause and give a shout-out to Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who, despite lots of skepticism here, went from being attacked in a violent insurrection on Capitol Hill to leading the second successful impeachment of Trump in 10 days.
posted by PhineasGage at 11:17 AM on January 15, 2021 [110 favorites]


So if you're not aware of The Nib and you like political cartoons, now is a good time to get acquainted. Some hit-and-miss but for the most part, I always find a few stand-out pieces.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:17 AM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


"Unity."

Like so
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:20 AM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Wait, I'm wrong. Speaker Pelosi did it in A WEEK.
posted by PhineasGage at 11:24 AM on January 15, 2021 [66 favorites]


You think they're not destroying files as we banter about here?

I'm sure they are, but I just don't think they'll be very good at it.
posted by biffa at 11:27 AM on January 15, 2021 [12 favorites]


Agreed. Despite some early skepticism, I am very impressed with the steps Speaker Pelosi has taken, and I am confident that in due time she will continue to pursue this matter for as long as it takes.

Likewise, I know Biden's plan may not satisfy every concern we have, but I am convinced that this is only the beginning and there will be more relief.

I don't think I have ever felt this way about anyone in government, ever.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:33 AM on January 15, 2021 [16 favorites]


This thread has gone off the tracks already. The US, and the world, is still in the middle of a huge crisis. No one knows what will happen in the next five days. I have opinions on the Biden agenda, but at this point I feel they are a distraction.
IMO a failure to convict Trump and his followers will make any Biden policies mute. 400 or 1600 or 2000 dollars? Whatever. The Trumpists are still at the helm, and progress will not happen, neither incremental liberal progress or radical socialist progress until we can stop them from setting the agenda.


I think these two issue sets very well might be interrelated because both at least partly depend upon Democrats' willingness to be aggressive compared to their desire to appear bipartisan and potentially pick up Republicans to vote for their initiatives. If it does turn out that there is evidence Republican legislatures had knowledge of or colluded with the attackers, an aggressive investigation and response would by necessity strike at the very heart of prospects for achieving bipartisan consensus and even the idea Republicans can ever be good faith partners in government.
posted by eagles123 at 11:33 AM on January 15, 2021 [6 favorites]


Six hours of paralysis? As if Trump might have been willing to yell "stop" if he weren't paralyzed? No, he wasn't paralyzed. He was sitting there in complete command of his facilities enjoying the show.

Exactly. There was nothing paralyzed about Trump that day. He chose not to do anything. Saying he was paralyzed is just giving him an excuse. WaPo should know better.
posted by sundrop at 11:34 AM on January 15, 2021 [23 favorites]


I really dislike going after Biden for this $1400 thing. It feels disingenuous to act as though a total of $2000 was not what was being asked for. Even AOC was only asking for the checks to be brought up to $2000

I was really surprised that people thought it was “another $2000” and not “the rest of the $2000” but it seems to be true that a lot of people thought that so? Not everybody was following the whole process.
posted by atoxyl at 11:39 AM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]


In more Parler news, location data shows (surprise!) its users included police officers around the U.S. and service members stationed on bases at home and abroad.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:40 AM on January 15, 2021 [9 favorites]


Every. Single. Headline. Said. $2000 checks. I refuse to be gaslight as if we should have known it was well actually something else. I read the news ever goddamn day and HERE is the only place I've heard different than "$2000 checks."
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:41 AM on January 15, 2021 [31 favorites]


Seriously, these people are really terrifying...

Greg Sargent via Twitter:

The new Post poll has some awful findings among Republicans:

51% say GOP leaders didn't go far enough in nullifying election
56% say Trump bears zero blame for the insurrection
66% say he has acted responsibly

Behold the GOP's authoritarian core: Washington Post
posted by rambling wanderlust at 11:43 AM on January 15, 2021 [17 favorites]


Hasn't been acknowledged enough: the very fact that as the Capitol was sacked, POTUS wasn't immediately evacuated, as you might imagine a foreign attack on DC would call for, tells us a lot.

They knew he wasn't in danger.

He was running the show. No, nothing paralyzed about him at all. He was sitting there waiting for his coronation.
posted by Dashy at 11:44 AM on January 15, 2021 [53 favorites]


Closing-The-Barn-Door-After-The-Horses-Filter: American Thinker publishes a new article about Dominion Voting machines, written by Dominion's defamation lawyers:
American Thinker and contributors Andrea Widburg, R.D. Wedge, Brian Tomlinson, and Peggy Ryan have published pieces on www.AmericanThinker.com that falsely accuse US Dominion Inc., Dominion Voting Systems, Inc., and Dominion Voting Systems Corporation (collectively “Dominion”) of conspiring to steal the November 2020 election from Donald Trump. These pieces rely on discredited sources who have peddled debunked theories about Dominion’s supposed ties to Venezuela, fraud on Dominion’s machines that resulted in massive vote switching or weighted votes, and other claims falsely stating that there is credible evidence that Dominion acted fraudulently.

These statements are completely false and have no basis in fact. Industry experts and public officials alike have confirmed that Dominion conducted itself appropriately and that there is simply no evidence to support these claims.

It was wrong for us to publish these false statements. We apologize to Dominion for all of the harm this caused them and their employees. We also apologize to our readers for abandoning 9 journalistic principles and misrepresenting Dominion’s track record and its limited role in tabulating votes for the November 2020 election. We regret this grave error.
In what is apparently completely unrelated news (🍔), American Thinker has indefinitely turned off their commenting feature.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 11:44 AM on January 15, 2021 [34 favorites]


More to the point, what's wrong with another $2000 check in any event?

Even now, the Democrats have no idea how to seize the moment. Self-own, right out of the gate.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:45 AM on January 15, 2021 [6 favorites]


The last thing this country needs is a Patriot Act 2.0, because the failures that led to January 6 had nothing to with any lack of resources or personnel or power of enforcement.

I agree that a new Patriot Act is NOT needed, but if the opportunity comes up to spend money to make it easier or faster to restructure/redeploy existing resources to focus on domestic right-wing terror, I would probably support it. I have a feeling the US is looking at least 10-15 years of dealing with this threat that the country has been ignoring and allowed to gestate for decades, if not for most of it's history. And 15 years is what I think if the government takes the threat seriously and not makes some motions to look good, but puts it on the backburner again because there's so many other issues to deal with.
posted by FJT at 11:46 AM on January 15, 2021


deadaluspark: And while it's nice that they're trying to follow through on campaign promises, AOC is right.

I don't see any relevant links or quotes to this effect up there and this is the first mention of her in the thread. What is she right about?
posted by rhizome at 11:46 AM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Can we please drop the $2000 check derail and Dem self-pwning? I can only hope that we'll have plenty of time to spend on it after next week.

I'm a lot discouraged by the lack of a vaccine store at this point.
posted by Dashy at 11:48 AM on January 15, 2021 [57 favorites]


> I don't see any relevant links or quotes to this effect up there and this is the first mention of her in the thread. What is she right about?

Biden unveils $1.9 trillion economic and health-care relief package
The most conservative Senate Democrat, Sen. Joe Manchin III (W.Va.), has already expressed skepticism about the need for a new round of stimulus checks, while Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) said Thursday that Biden isn’t going far enough by proposing $1,400 checks, even though Biden’s approach means most people will end up with $2,000 given the earlier batch of $600 checks. “$2,000 means $2,000. $2,000 does not mean $1,400,″ Ocasio-Cortez said.
Nobody should expect anything different from either Joe Manchin or AOC, and nobody should expect either of their ideal bills to be the final result of a process that includes both of them.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:49 AM on January 15, 2021 [16 favorites]


"The most extreme form of mental control occurs when the authority is trusted completely and becomes the center of one’s identity. Sadly, society and parents insidiously put out messages from childhood on that others know what’s best. Many people are deeply conditioned to expect and hope some outside agency, power or person will solve their problems. Letting go of expectations or even wanting this is difficult, partially because what one is left with is oneself and all of one’s limitations."

"True healing can be accelerated by understanding the deep mechanisms of what happened, and of authoritarian dynamics in general. Then people can be more confident they won’t be taken in again." Kramer/Alstad "The Guru Papers"

Read this book this year due to the authoritarianism I've experienced in yoga circles and how others I have known have gone down this track. Their main model is guru/disciple relationships. My experience as a teacher is that there if there is a sense of complete devotion towards you, there is a sense of puzzle pieces fitting together one by one that take on their own life. "Oh, this level has been reached. Let's go onto the next." It's like the structure dictates the path of itself. Social media algorithms seem to do the same.

I've said often that people need to have a cult experience once in their life to understand how it works
posted by goalyeehah at 11:50 AM on January 15, 2021 [14 favorites]


any expansion of the powers of the security state will ultimately be directed at the left, POC, LGBTQ folks, and so on.
posted by cosimoilvecchio at 11:53 AM on January 15, 2021 [17 favorites]


Update on the criminal cases against the rioters.

Expect to have over 300 active investigations by the end of the day, and still expect exponential growth. Still haven't exhausted the quick wins, but they're seeing 'breadcrumbs' of organisation. Two quick pull quotes.
"That is a tier 1, top priority for the U.S. attorney and federal law enforcement—to see if there was an overarching command and control and organized teams to breach the Capitol and accomplished some type of mission inside the Capitol," Michael Sherwin, acting U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, told reporters Friday.
And on the involvement of off duty police.
Calling the cases involving former or current law enforcement officers the "height of hypocrisy," Sherwin offered a message to anyone who was involved in the riot: "We don't care what your profession is, who you are, who you're affiliated with. If you were engaged in criminal activity we will charge you and you will be arrested."
posted by MattWPBS at 11:53 AM on January 15, 2021 [26 favorites]


"Something that’s not quite politics, not quite religion, and not quite ideology, but rather a hybrid of the most dangerous aspects of all three."

The word "fascism" is certainly overused in political discourse, but it's exactly the term for what's being described here.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:55 AM on January 15, 2021 [21 favorites]


There's plenty of room to amp up our approach to fighting against the white supremacy that led to the Capitol insurrection without expanding the security state.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:56 AM on January 15, 2021 [24 favorites]


That American Thinker statement is the most delicious stuff. It's really coming apart at the seams for these guys, finally.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:56 AM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]



Continuing this conversation in this thread because I think this is important:

Amateurs LARPing with tactical gear can easily get a lot of people killed. But what is dangerous is that the perception that there were actual special forces operators in that crowd, well, that gives that mob a measure of credibility in some people's eyes.


Also from the previous thread. These are the final few words from Beau (of the Fifth Column)'s recent Youtube post.

"... there are tens of thousands of people in this country that have that level of (military combat) training. They were not there.

They were not there.

Casting the image that they were will make their movement grow if the media does not stop this and stop it soon. That folk hero A-Team image -- that's going to make people interested.

Aside from it being bad for the country, it is factually inaccurate. Even though they were unarmed, if they had ever trained, muscle memory would have made them use their left hand to do that*.

They were pretending.
They were pretending.

Don't make them out to be heroes. That's the image that is coming across: that there is this group of America's elite that is in opposition. That's probably really bad for the country.



* putting one's hand on the shoulder of the guy in front as you move through a chaotic situation, so that you don't lose track of each other.
posted by philip-random at 11:56 AM on January 15, 2021 [7 favorites]


We really need the vaccines to be more widely available, ASAP:

New Covid variant first found in U.K. could become dominant strain in U.S. by March, CDC says (CNBC)

A more contagious strain of the coronavirus first found in the United Kingdom late last year could become the dominant strain in the United States by March as the nation races to vaccinate people against the disease, according to a new study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

“The modeled trajectory of this variant in the U.S. exhibits rapid growth in early 2021, becoming the predominant variant in March,” according to the CDC study released Friday.

Researchers warned that increased spread could add more strain on the nation’s hospitals and will require greater public health strategies to tamp down the virus’ spread until enough people are vaccinated.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 11:57 AM on January 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


There's plenty of room to amp up our approach to fighting against the white supremacy that led to the Capitol insurrection without expanding the security state.

A lot of it could be solved by being able to legally call GOP gaslighting and abuse for exactly what it is and give legal punishments for it instead of allowing these fucking freaks to run amok.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:57 AM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]


"True healing can be accelerated by understanding the deep mechanisms of what happened, and of authoritarian dynamics in general. Then people can be more confident they won’t be taken in again." Kramer/Alstad "The Guru Papers"

Healing comes after treatment, but that part always seems to be skipped in...certain...communities. Maybe self-destruction of image and power is more of a unitary event rather than the result of a campaign of accountability, or quality, or curriculum, as the case may be, but the ability to regain or preserve power has to be removed.

And the non-capital punishment way (which is still an option) to recover from the effects of a cult leader, as I understand it, is to destroy the image of that leader. There are a lot of symbols in effect in the insurrectionist subculture, and Trump-as-public-figure has to be one of them to go. Confederate flag is probably #2.
posted by rhizome at 12:00 PM on January 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


There's plenty of room to amp up our approach to fighting against the white supremacy that led to the Capitol insurrection without expanding the security state.

There are already more than adequate laws on the books to fight white supremacy and fascism. The thing is, there are enough white supremacist and fascist cops that enforcement is the problem. And I don't know how to solve that part aside from abolishing police unions (as a start).
posted by tclark at 12:00 PM on January 15, 2021 [17 favorites]


And the non-capital punishment way (which is still an option) to recover from the effects of a cult leader, as I understand it, is to destroy the image of that leader.

What image is there left to destroy??? This is what is so confusing about the Trump era. Because it doesn't feel like this actually works.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:04 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


The thing is, there are enough white supremacist and fascist cops that enforcement is the problem. And I don't know how to solve that part aside from abolishing police unions (as a start).

For my solution that is clear, simple, and (maybe) wrong: apply gang statutes to them. At the very least I bet we'd start to see those fall to Constitutional challenges, but WP is a real gang, so much so that prisons nationwide categorize it as such. I bet if we took a magnifying glass to the law that we'd find that hand tattoos and oaths and other stereotypical hallmarks of gang membership are not actually required to convict. The union is the Stringer Bell-Proposition Joe cartel of the profession.
posted by rhizome at 12:05 PM on January 15, 2021 [11 favorites]




What image is there left to destroy???

That he's correct in the things he says and which the cult members listen to and believe and act upon. He has to be made unbelievable in the strictest sense of the word.
posted by rhizome at 12:07 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Texas Real Estate Agent Who Took Private Jet to Capitol Riot Is Arrested

In one now-deleted video, she filmed herself in a crowd going into the Capitol through the Rotunda entrance. She walked past broken windows, up some stairs, and said, “We are going to fucking go in here. Life or death, it doesn’t matter. Here we go.”

Then, she turned to the camera and added, “Y’all know who to hire for your realtor. Jenna Ryan for your realtor.”


More choice bits in the article.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:09 PM on January 15, 2021 [67 favorites]


Biden's covid vax plan coming up in about half an hour. C-SPAN link.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 12:12 PM on January 15, 2021


Fox News reporting that Trump will be "long gone" by noon on Wednesday. I pray at 12:01 that dozens of lawyers will be filing to get in line first.
posted by nicoffeine at 12:12 PM on January 15, 2021 [12 favorites]


Fox News reporting that Trump will be "long gone" by noon on Wednesday

Because as I've heard about all bullies: they are cowards.

This is a prime opportunity for the image destruction I mentioned above.
posted by rhizome at 12:14 PM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


Aside from it being bad for the country, it is factually inaccurate. Even though they were unarmed, if they had ever trained, muscle memory would have made them use their left hand to do that*.

Are there any other activities that might cause one's muscle memory to raise a right hand? Paging Dr. Strangelove.
posted by subocoyne at 12:14 PM on January 15, 2021 [10 favorites]


nicoffeine: I don't pray. I do know that Letitia James, the Attorney General of New York is just itching to unseal some waiting indictments against Trump and his family, and likely will do so at 12:01 PM on Wednesday.
posted by SansPoint at 12:15 PM on January 15, 2021 [26 favorites]


That framing doesn't give credit where credit is due - which is that disgraced President Trump, with help, actively tried to run a coup.

As I said, it was the most charitable framing I could fashion. Not because I'm a nice guy but because I think we have an obligation to keep our claims on a solid footing of evidence. Some of the things you reference are simply allegations at this point -- did GOP congresspeople give reconnaissance tours on the 5th? Maybe. That needs too be pursued before we can make a strong claim. Same with Rep. Pressley's offices. Did the Capitol Police leadership underprepare their force because they were in on it, or simply because they're incompetent?

Correlation isn't causation. Now, having said that I'll grant also that those are an awful lot of correlations. But if we're trying to convince other people, we need to keep our claims as solid as possible. If they see us swinging and whiffing too many times, we will lose credibility.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 12:16 PM on January 15, 2021 [6 favorites]


Wait, is this the thread where new news about the insurrection will be posted? Or is this for covid response plan discussion?
posted by Buy Sockpuppet Bonds! at 12:20 PM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


Former Cleveland schools’ therapist arrested on federal charges involving attack at U.S. Capitol (Cleveland.com, Jan. 15) No mask, red coat, MAGA leggings, big white sign: Christine Priola became a suspect after a photographer for Getty Images took a picture in the chamber of the U.S. Senate amid protesters reveling and trespassing. The photograph showed a woman, at the front of the chamber, carrying a sign that said, “The Children Cry Out For Justice.” Several people on social media identified the woman as Priola.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:21 PM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]


There's a lot of rescuing that needs to be done, sadly both the insurrection and Covid-19 are mixed together into a not so delicious milkshake these days...
posted by rambling wanderlust at 12:23 PM on January 15, 2021


> Wait, is this the thread where new news about the insurrection will be posted? Or is this for covid response plan discussion?

Yes. I mean, it's the thread for "there's been a crisis but let's try to government now, shall we?"
posted by desuetude at 12:24 PM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]


2020 HEROES Act:
Essential frontline workers are the true heroes of America’s COVID-19 pandemic response. Senate Democrats believe in providing premium pay to frontline workers during this pandemic to reward essential frontline workers, ensure the retention of essential workers who are working grueling hours on the frontlines of this crisis, and promote the recruitment of additional workers who will be needed in the months ahead.

As the Congress looks at a potential fourth COVID-19 bill, the following proposal is meant for consideration by Members of Congress, key stakeholders, and the American people. Our proposal consists of two major components:

1. A $25,000 pandemic premium pay increase for essential frontline workers, equivalent to a raise of an additional $13 per hour from the start of the public health emergency until December 31, 2020.

2. A $15,000 recruitment incentive for health and home care workers and first responders to attract and secure the workforce needed to fight the public health crisis.
JoeBiden.com before the election:
Enact premium pay for frontline workers putting themselves at risk.
There is no substitute for ensuring worker safety, but all frontline workers putting their lives on the line should receive premium pay for their work. The Trump Administration should immediately work with Congress to pass a bold premium pay initiative. Under the Senate Democrats’ “Heroes Fund” proposal, the federal government would step in and give essential workers a raise, with additional funding to attract workers to serve as health and home care workers and first responders. This premium pay should be in addition to paid sick leave and care-giving leave for every worker, which Joe Biden called for in his March 12 plan, and $15 minimum wage for all workers.
Biden's stimulus plan:
Call on employers to meet their obligations to frontline essential workers and provide back hazard pay. Essential workers -- who are disproportionately Black, Latino, and Asian American and Pacific Islander-- have risked their lives to stock shelves, harvest crops, and care for the sick during this crisis. They have kept the country running even during the darkest days of the pandemic. A number of large employers, especially in the retail and grocery sectors, have seen bumper profitability in 2020 and yet done little or nothing at all to compensate their workers for the risks they took. The president-elect believes these employers have a duty to do right by their frontline essential workers and acknowledge their sacrifices with generous back hazard pay for the risks they took across 2020 and up to today. He and the Vice President-elect will call on CEOs and other business leaders to take action to meet these obligations.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Rhaomi at 12:24 PM on January 15, 2021 [9 favorites]


Weirdly, my husband actually knows one of the Capitol insurrectionists. He worked with her on drafting our city's go-forward plan for housing. She held an appointed position in our city that dealt with affordable housing. My husband actually talked about her after some of the meetings because she was a single mom with three kids living in low-income housing and thus had a pretty unique perspective. We had no idea how unique. She posted pics on her Twitter of her "storming" the Capitol steps etc. and is now being investigated by the city for her role.
posted by peacheater at 12:26 PM on January 15, 2021 [25 favorites]


The word "fascism" is certainly overused in political discourse, but it's exactly the term for what's being described here.

I'm old enough to remember when Jonah "Still-Welcome-On-NPR-As-An-'Honest'-Conservative" Goldberg got so tired of people comparing Republicans to fascists that he wrote a book contending that liberals are the real fascists.

As widely mocked as that claim was, it still really hasn't aged well.
posted by Gelatin at 12:32 PM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]




IMO a failure to convict Trump and his followers will make any Biden policies mute.

Ah, I regrettably must say: after everyone simply watching Trump's “Russia if you're listening...” levying-war open treason and doing nothing and making him President and giving him nuclear weapons then apparently forgetting about it, even here and now, if the discussion is also correct above indicating that any prosecution of members of the military for participation in the insurrection will not end in punishment with finality or something similarly extreme, and indeed may just be cops-murdering-unarmed-Black-people slaps on the wrist, I think the jig is up anyways. No healing. Not when there's a big juicy plate of carrots on the other side of the fence they just have to squeeze their little fuzzy Watership Down antagonist butts under.

Future insurrectionists will decide that they can just wait it out for a pardon if they aren't victorious. I mean, We The People allowed pardons for war criminals who murdered children to go through, whose names we will probably be seeing on ballots soon...

The one from my state's actual literal real name is “Evan Liberty” and even by the ostensibly (very-small-market) left-leaning press here he's being covered and interviewed like an accused war criminal rather than as a convicted war criminal. They can't just say he did the things he was convicted of, they can't not quote the war criminals' lawyers making hyperbolic claims about how they're the most angelic beings who ever shot children to death, they hardly talk about the victims: even in this case they have to both-sides it, because the chthonic gods of journalism demand their souls in sacrifice.
posted by XMLicious at 12:43 PM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


"Mike Pence telephoned Kamala Harris on Thursday to congratulate her and offer his assistance ahead of next week's swearing-in."

Nice of you, Mike, 75 days after the election and only after an insurrection attempt. Back in 2016, VP Joe Biden had Mike into the White House as his guest two days after the election.

And while we are at it, Michelle Obama had new First Lady Melania as a guest in the White House two days after the election. And thus far Melania has not even talked to the new First Lady Jill Biden and doesn't look like she ever will. Truly an ungracious shit heel.
posted by JackFlash at 12:47 PM on January 15, 2021 [79 favorites]


The Dark Reality of Betting Against QAnon (The Atlantic)

tl;dr: Some guy noticed that PredictIt (an online betting market) was taking bets on some rather unusual things. He connected the dots, and realized that PredictIt was raking in the cash from QAnon believers who were sure that Hillary Clinton was going to be arrested any day now (or similar nonsense). He made $400 betting against the conspiracy theories.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:54 PM on January 15, 2021 [31 favorites]


Former Cleveland schools’ therapist arrested on federal charges involving attack at U.S. Capitol

Worth noting that the "former" part is because she was fired immediately after it was discovered (via her own social media posts, I believe) that she had been in the Capitol . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 12:57 PM on January 15, 2021 [10 favorites]


Y’all know who to hire for your realtor. Jenna Ryan for your realtor.

In a world of unlikely coincidences, my partner has a relative, in Sudbury, ON - Canada - who is... a realtor... and whose name is Jenna Ryan, who was nowhere near DC... Lately a different kind of mob is trying to link her to the terrorist insurgents...

The IQ of a mob is the IQ of its most stupid member divided by the number of mobsters.
posted by rozcakj at 1:00 PM on January 15, 2021 [10 favorites]


He made $400 betting against the conspiracy theories.

That was genius.

Remember how everyone's been saying that Trumpies tend to be reasonably well-off, and certainly not poor?

...well, with a little more coordinated betting against them, they could be. Drain their wallets, not the swamp.
posted by aramaic at 1:04 PM on January 15, 2021 [9 favorites]


sadly both the insurrection and Covid-19 are mixed together into a not so delicious milkshake these days...

Shitshake!

"Mike Pence telephoned Kamala Harris on Thursday to congratulate her and offer his assistance ahead of next week's swearing-in."
Nice of you, Mike, 75 days after the election and only after an insurrection attempt. Back in 2016, VP Joe Biden had Mike into the White House as his guest two days after the election.


Clearly he won't be spending much time offering "assistance." Good thing the Bidens already know who to contact for assistance about things and already have the experience.
And yet, for the standards of the Trump administration, this is downright miraculous :P

And while we are at it, Michelle Obama had new First Lady Melania as a guest in the White House two days after the election. And thus far Melania has not even talked to the new First Lady Jill Biden and doesn't look like she ever will. Truly an ungracious shit heel.

Melania will be out the door already. None of that awkwardness about welcoming and gifts this year.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:11 PM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


> He connected the dots, and realized that PredictIt was raking in the cash from QAnon believers who were sure that Hillary Clinton was going to be arrested any day now

> The IQ of a mob is the IQ of its most stupid member divided by the number of mobsters.

One thing I've been imagining in recent days is the historians of some distant future collapsing in mirth as they simply read the titles of turn-of-the-century Malcolm Gladwell^ type books to each other: “The Wisdom of Crowds! I can't stop laughing...”
posted by XMLicious at 1:11 PM on January 15, 2021 [10 favorites]


On the latest Chris Hayes podcast (apple, stitcher), he talks with Ta-Nehisi Coates about the capitol assault. Coates has a lot of interesting points, like how young anything approaching actual democracy is in the US, or how white violence isn't exactly unusual, but the one that sticks with me is how bad letting open lies become mainstream in a party is.

Fivethirtyeight points out how Birtherism never subsided: a 2019 poll found 56% of Republicans think Obama probably or definitely was born in Kenya. The majority of Republicans believe we went through 8 years with an illegitimate president, and are facing 4 more. Without voices they trust speaking out against this, there's no way this split from reality is going to heal itself.
posted by netowl at 1:16 PM on January 15, 2021 [35 favorites]


In a world of unlikely coincidences, my partner has a relative, in Sudbury, ON - Canada - who is... a realtor... and whose name is Jenna Ryan, who was nowhere near DC... Lately a different kind of mob is trying to link her to the terrorist insurgents...

Similarly: Calif. flower shop with no connection to Capitol riot flooded with threats, negative reviews
Two other florists bearing the same name in Kentucky and Scotland were burdened with similar harassment. Alberti said all of them have given up on deleting the comments, and are instead attempting to respond to each one in order to set the record straight.

“I offered to send some people maps of the United States,” joked Alberti. “Most people apologize and then they reverse, but some are steadfast. My thing is, I understand the need to vent and get rid of that hostility, but just spend an extra five seconds of time to see that we’re not in Texas. The very platforms that these people are using to type these rants and tirades … it would take them less time to find out we’re not that business than it would take for them to write the post.”
posted by Lexica at 1:18 PM on January 15, 2021 [12 favorites]


We Went Undercover at the DC Riots - Vlog #2.5 - Stop the Steal Rally turns into Terror Attack I..don't quite know what to do with this footage of the events. These are our neighbors. And they are not OK.
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:20 PM on January 15, 2021 [20 favorites]


The accounts from DC police on the ground during the insurrection are truly horrific. My more conservative friends have been mostly pretty quiet about it. Surely this, I thought. But no, mostly quiet. Some of them have handwaved in the direction of "no true Scotsman." Some muttered some wishy-washy echoes of the GOP condemning the violence while divorcing it completely from Trump. (To give credit where it's due, most of the older military veterans I know are enraged that off-duty LEOs, military, etc. were there and are not afraid to blame Trump for incitement.)

I would love to see this permanently smudge the goddamn thin blue line and embolden LEOs to squeal on those alleged bad apples, but I have very little hope in anything other than a few token demotions happening. Excuses that are less sophisticated than what you'd hear on an elementary school playground are a-ok with most police departments whose members attended the insurrection. ("Golly, I might have been nearby, but I didn't do or see anything bad!")

Meanwhile, while I have marched through the streets of my city chanting profanely to defund the police, I can't imagine us violently attacking officers like that--or even wanting to--even if we could get away with it. (This is of course a useless hypothetical because even the smallest protests are automatically met with an enormous contingent of cops in riot gear ready to get aggressive and backed up by surveillance.) But still, we don't want to murder all of the cops in our way, we just want them to leave people the fuck alone. Any comparison to BLM protests makes no goddamn sense.
posted by desuetude at 1:22 PM on January 15, 2021 [23 favorites]


Biden is presidenting even better today. I wouldn't be surprised if he got coaching that his tone of voice yesterday was a bit too strident and loud. He sounds earnest and measured in today's presentation of his COVID-19 Vaccination Plan.
posted by PhineasGage at 1:26 PM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


In most excellent and glorious news, at the end of Trump's last Friday...

Grant Stern (Twitter)

The National Rifle Association has declared itself bankrupt in a federal court.

This is not a drill.

Bloomberg article...

The National Rifle Association of America files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in Texas on Friday, court papers show, Bloomberg News reports.

The NRA listed assets and liabilities of as much as $500 million each, according to its bankruptcy petition.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 1:33 PM on January 15, 2021 [51 favorites]




> But if we're trying to convince other people, we need to keep our claims as solid as possible. If they see us swinging and whiffing too many times, we will lose credibility.

Every attempt at convincing the greater public with unassailably proven facts will be completely undone by Sean Hannity uttering a talking point on-air.
posted by at by at 1:37 PM on January 15, 2021 [9 favorites]


So basically: If you want credibility, you need a good propaganda machine even more than you need facts. We have the facts, we have the proof. We just have no means to convince vast reaches of the United States.
posted by at by at 1:38 PM on January 15, 2021 [12 favorites]


I'm pretty curious to see if re-incorporating in Texas is really going to get the NRA off the hook from being tried in New York. I imagine it is some sort of an attempt at an end-round, but seems like it shouldn't be that easy if they think it'll protect them from the New York Attorney General.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 1:39 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Similarly: Calif. flower shop with no connection to Capitol riot flooded with threats, negative reviews

Also, from metafilter's own adamg:
Owners of West Roxbury pizza place say they have nothing to do with the Trump flag flying from the top of the building they're in, so please stop boycotting them
This is definitely one of those "protects but does not bind; binds but does not protect" situations. The landlord is free to fly the flag from his building, but his tenants have no recourse to take it down even if it's harming their business.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:41 PM on January 15, 2021 [18 favorites]


Followup from last thread:
> The secret service reporting visits from Mob bosses, Putin associated oligarchs, and various dictators and their lackeys to the FBI/CIA/NSA would cramp almost all of Trump's financial style.
They've had four years of opportunities to do that and haven't yet. I don't think they'll start once he's out of office.


For the last four years, Trump's been the ultimate head of their department: He appoints the guy who hires their direct employer. On Jan 21, that's no longer true - he'll be their ward, but he won't be their boss. Their boss can order them to report suspicious behavior and meetings with various high-status people.

For Trump's safety, of course. His security detail needs to keep aware of the risks their client is facing. If he's meeting with mob bosses and potential enemies of the state, they need to report back so their boss can decide whether to increase security staff.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:50 PM on January 15, 2021 [8 favorites]


"Update on the criminal cases against the rioters.

Expect to have over 300 active investigations by the end of the day, and still expect exponential growth."


Is there a reliable source for how many people were in the riots? There were so many wildly divergent numbers being thrown out in the moment but has there been an estimate released from the FBI or something about how many people were there (either in total or the number who made it inside the Capitol. There had been a lot of people who were there but didn't even attempt to go inside). I'd like to get a sense of how far along they are. A colloquial use of "exponential growth" isn't super helpful as they could simply end up only being double or triple what they have now.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 1:51 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


We Went Undercover at the DC Riots - Vlog #2.5 - Stop the Steal Rally turns into Terror Attack I..don't quite know what to do with this footage of the events. These are our neighbors. And they are not OK.

I've only just started watching this, but MonkeyToes's video is a pair of guys, one who seems to be experienced in infiltrating Nazi events, and the cameraman, who seems relatively new to it. So the video begins with the experienced guy explaining in detail how to dress and act to make the Nazis trust you and accept being interviewed by you. (Both of them are white, so no idea if the rules would be the same for BIPoC.)

Unfortunately, this may be valuable information for avoiding getting murdered in certain situations,^ so people may want to download or bookmark this. Some notes in an AskMe about downloading with VLC Media Player and an AskMe on a more technical method from last July.
posted by XMLicious at 1:56 PM on January 15, 2021 [20 favorites]


people may want to download or bookmark this. Some notes in an AskMe about downloading with VLC Media Player and an AskMe on a more technical method from last July.

If you're on a Mac, I highly recommend the free and easy ViDL. It even has an optional browser extension (even for Safari) that makes it a one-click affair.
posted by revmitcz at 2:06 PM on January 15, 2021 [11 favorites]


I've only just started watching this

I'm just past the point where he's describing crying in the bathroom of a Wendy's with the "Sir, this is a Wendy's" meme running through his head after an extremely stressful day. He thought that they were going to get some funny footage for a funny video, but it didn't turn out that way.
posted by clawsoon at 2:07 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Here's a weird thing: MyPillow guy going into a meeting at the WH and a photographer captures a part of his notes.

"MyPillow guy meeting with Trump minutes ago with notes on how to attempt a coup."
posted by bz at 2:11 PM on January 15, 2021 [32 favorites]


"... there are tens of thousands of people in this country that have that level of (military combat) training. They were not there.


Beau's point is good, but also some of them were there -- and are now trying to walk back their previous statements. While still having their 'revolution' themed training highlight reel up.

That guy's outfit is one of the recipients of a multi-million dollar military training contract, and which also runs its own "private tactical organization" for "highly skilled individuals." So, at the very least, some of the LARPers are in the thrall of more serious people.

It was suggested in the previous thread that "real" vets don't go in for military glamour and 'tacticool.' That is an older stereotype that is not so reliable these days.

As often, former and reserve military are quite involved in PMC work and security-state consulting, as well as monetized right-wing politics and tacticool commercialization which very much includes weekend warrior and CCW training for chuds.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:13 PM on January 15, 2021 [14 favorites]


We have the facts, we have the proof. We just have no means to convince vast reaches of the United States.

which, please correct me if I'm wrong, is where Trump came in about five years ago. Nature abhors a vacuum and all that. The vacuum in question being the hearts and minds of those who would come to support the obviously naked Emperor type because ... well, he told them what they wanted to hear, which was neither facts nor proof. But it was effective populism.

Why do I feel like I'm talking in circles here?
posted by philip-random at 2:15 PM on January 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


From further on in that video, from the other people they run into it looks like, at an event like a Stop the Steal rally at least, if a white man just dresses weirdly or tacticool they may only really need one or two Trump or other Nazi accessories to blend in. One guy is just in a ghillie suit with a magahat. (Several more-conventionally-dressed-and-accessoried PoC interviewed, too.)
posted by XMLicious at 2:19 PM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


Jamie Herrera Beutler is a Republican representative from the state of Washington who is taking heat for her vote in favor of impeachment. In response, she sent a series of tweets with a concise summary of the steps Trump took to incite the insurrection, including citations.

Here’s a link:

https://twitter.com/herrerabeutler/status/1349959275922206721?s=21
posted by lumpy at 2:28 PM on January 15, 2021 [31 favorites]


Biden's speech today on vaccination <-- competant US covid leadership starts here

FEMA, pharmacies, defense production act
posted by joeyh at 2:29 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


I tried to transcribe the visible part of what Mike Lindell was carrying into the White House just now:
[]BE TAKEN IMMEDIATELY TO SAVE THE
[]CONSTITUTION

[]Colon NOW as Acting National Security
[]him with getting the evidence of ALL the
[]as the election and all information regarding
[]among people he knows who already have security
[]done massive research on these issues
[]at Fort Mead. He is an attorney with cyber-
[]expertise and is up to speed on election issues.

[]Insurrection Act now as a result of the assault on the
[]martial law if necessary upon the first hint of any

[], Sidney Powell, Bill Olsen, Kurt Olsen,
[]Move Kash Patel to CIA Acting.

[]on Foreign Interference in the election. Trigger
[]powers. Make clear this is China/Iran
[]also used domestic actors. Instruct Frank
[]evidence on [] the [] broad
[]likely amount []ary
[]the [] evidence
[]ttorney
I would really love if there was some explanation for this other than that the My Pillow Guy is trying to help engineer a fascist coup but uhh
posted by theodolite at 2:29 PM on January 15, 2021 [79 favorites]


Here's a weird thing: MyPillow guy going into a meeting at the WH and a photographer captures a part of his notes.

He's planning to run for the Minnesota Governor's office in 2022 against Tim Walz. Don't underestimate him, or rather don't underestimate the gullibility of many Minnesotans — we need to bring the blue in the midterms.
posted by nathan_teske at 2:29 PM on January 15, 2021 [14 favorites]


if a white man just dresses weirdly or tacticool they may only really need one or two Trump or other Nazi accessories to blend in

Timberlands, Carhart pants, a waterfowl jacket and a MAGA hat seems to be sufficient, especially if accompanied by a lot of profane bellicosity.

If you want to be extra-careful, add pieces of anti-Hillary or Birther flair.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:30 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Damn it theodolite! You just beat me to the transcription. :-)
posted by rambling wanderlust at 2:31 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


We are definitely in Coup Part Two: The MyPillowing
posted by neroli at 2:32 PM on January 15, 2021 [9 favorites]


Zooming in on those MyPillow Guy notes...YIKES.

I'm in MN, and will do everything I can to continue our Democratic Governor string in St. Paul. The MyPillow Guy makes f'ing Tom Emmer seem reasonable.
posted by mcstayinskool at 2:32 PM on January 15, 2021 [9 favorites]


Then, she turned to the camera and added, “Y’all know who to hire for your realtor. Jenna Ryan for your realtor.”

Videotaping this crime spree is the best idea we ever had
posted by obscure simpsons reference at 2:32 PM on January 15, 2021 [10 favorites]


explanation for this other than that the My Pillow Guy is trying to help engineer a fascist coup but uhh

he found his old coke dealer's number
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:33 PM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


Personally I have already sworn allegiance to the Men's Wearhouse Guy. You're going to like the way he reigns. I guarantee it.
posted by theodolite at 2:34 PM on January 15, 2021 [42 favorites]


He's charming but I think our Republic may require FlexSeal.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:34 PM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


My Pillow Guy with Kris Lindahl as his Lt Gov. *shudder*
posted by nathan_teske at 2:36 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Yikes. That photo of the pillow guy's notes is the kind of thing that should be forwarded to the FBI and all news networks immediately.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:36 PM on January 15, 2021 [22 favorites]


My SIL is in the Green Zone :/

DC's Inauguration-Related Road And Transit Closures, Mapped

On Friday, Ward 6 Councilmember Charles Allen, who represents the Capitol Hill area, expressed frustration on Twitter: “This morning, many woke up to road closures in residential parts of #Ward6 beyond previous announcements. The Secret Service is the lead agency for Inauguration & made that call – but didn’t get the word out. I’ve talked with MPD & we’re both pushing for better comms from them.”

DCist / WAMU has attempted to compile a map of the known closures, though some information is incomplete and other information conflicting. Conditions are also continually changing. This map was last updated at 5 p.m. on Friday. In general, do not travel downtown if you don’t need to.


And take the long way around this week if you travel through DC.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:37 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


At this point I'd be happy to get a Sy Sperling President. Not only the President, but also an adult.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:37 PM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]


Here's a weird thing: MyPillow guy going into a meeting at the WH and a photographer captures a part of his notes.

"MyPillow guy meeting with Trump minutes ago with notes on how to attempt a coup."


Yeah, this is mad.

Edit: beaten to transcription, that's a worrying note.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:38 PM on January 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


Perhaps, soon, The MyPrisonPillow Guy?
posted by bz at 2:39 PM on January 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


Paging Chuck Tingle
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:41 PM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]


Biden maybe going a bit offscript talking about the congressional antimaskers during the seige. "it's time to grow up"
posted by joeyh at 2:46 PM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


I think it's about time to go find the fucking scary fuck thread...
posted by rambling wanderlust at 2:46 PM on January 15, 2021 [6 favorites]


Oh wow, I did not realize until I actually looked at the tweet that the MyPillow Guy meeting with POTUS happened TODAY. I legit thought that you all were talking about a photo from Jan 5 or earlier that had just made the rounds.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 2:48 PM on January 15, 2021 [22 favorites]


Frank Colon - looking at LinkedIn in an incognito window.
Attorney | Cyber Operations 780th Military Intelligence Brigade
780th Military Intelligence Brigade Naval War College
Fort George G Meade, Maryland

Currently, I am the senior attorney for the U.S. Army's elite cyber force enabling cyber operations in support of Joint Force Commanders. I am principally responsible for all cyber law of war review and training, distinguishing cyber acts of war from gray zone cyber effects that do not amount to warfare.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:49 PM on January 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


I'm wondering if there is some theory from the QAnon folk that Frank Colon is Q...
posted by janewman at 2:56 PM on January 15, 2021


janewman, there is now...
posted by Windopaene at 3:00 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


This is the day that the MyPillow CEO truly became President
posted by thelonius at 3:03 PM on January 15, 2021 [13 favorites]


I would like to go to the timeline where Oreo and the PGA standing up against a MyPillow plotted coup doesn't make sense.

Please.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:09 PM on January 15, 2021 [73 favorites]


I hope during the trial we find out that it wasn't an accident that Rudy's last stand was at Four Seasons Total Landscaping, and the brain trust behind Trump's coup included the MyPillow CEO. If our national security apparatus can't catch or infiltrate these chucklefucks, we are toast.
posted by nicoffeine at 3:10 PM on January 15, 2021 [8 favorites]


Beau's point is good, but also some of them were there

Yeah. The question is, how do you make sure you aren't glorifying the tacticool dress-up camo insurgents while also acknowledging that white supremacists are active in our military and police forces and have been using them to recruit for years and we should probably do something about that?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 3:13 PM on January 15, 2021 [11 favorites]


I am principally responsible for all cyber law of war

What are the odds that this is about getting his Twitter account back?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 3:15 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Isn't the implication from the vaccine reserve being a lie that we only have about half as many vaccines as they claimed?
posted by dirigibleman at 3:25 PM on January 15, 2021 [8 favorites]


MyPillow failed to collect New York state sales taxes from 2011-2015, settled a million dollar lawsuit about false claims that their pillows could cure insomnia, sleep apnea, and multiple sclerosis (!) in 2016, and, in 2017, had their Better Business Bureau accreditation revoked for, among other complaints, misleading pricing.

Unsurprisingly, Mike Lindell blames these misfortunes on people who resent his support of Donald Trump.
posted by box at 3:28 PM on January 15, 2021 [8 favorites]


Isn't the implication from the vaccine reserve being a lie that we only have about half as many vaccines as they claimed?

That's the way I'd read it. Get the feeling the first few weeks are going to involve a lot of evidence of incompetence or lies coming out into the open.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:30 PM on January 15, 2021 [7 favorites]


> These are our neighbors. And they are not OK.

There's also, starting just before 14:00, the guy with the Boer accent who seems to be trying to kill Mitt Romney with his mind, who says he came from South Africa. So there's that.

One or two of the people they interview do not seem entirely off-kilter to me. Particularly, the Lumbee woman (white jacket, after 8:00) who says that Trump promised her people federal recognition—I would swear that, when I was in high school, we read about a 19th-century Native American leader who, while signing a treaty, said something like, “The American government is like a beast with many heads and many tongues, each promising a different thing. How do we know this treaty will be followed?”

After some concerted googling, I'm unable to find any trace of anything like that quote; but of course it describes the Broken Treaties. So, while Trump's probably lying, I can see someone thinking that it's a matter of picking between which lies you fancy and between agreements that won't last anyways.
posted by XMLicious at 3:32 PM on January 15, 2021 [7 favorites]


Don't think that's the case, they started sending those reserved does out at the beginning of the year, and there was an increase in the rate of growth of vaccine administered starting then.

They seem to be unable to even communicate internally, which fits with their total incompetance at communicating with the public or the state health agencies.
posted by joeyh at 3:36 PM on January 15, 2021


so uh...is the Mein Pillow guy under arrest, or is he just getting a freebie?
posted by schadenfrau at 3:44 PM on January 15, 2021 [6 favorites]


Can I return MyPillow if it fails to smother democracy?
posted by srboisvert at 3:44 PM on January 15, 2021 [58 favorites]


At some point somebody signed on the dotted line on the each vaccine order and it's probably going to be quick to drill down to who. And the vaccine companies will have receipts.

But while there's very little I would put past big pharma companies, I really do think they'd speak up if orders were half of what was stated publicly - that's money they were expecting.
posted by jason_steakums at 3:46 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Steve Hofstetter (twitter):

Lauren Boebert: No one could possibly be as dumb and treasonous as I am, live tweeting Nancy Pelosi’s location during an attempted coup.

Donald Trump: Hold my pillow.

posted by bz at 3:53 PM on January 15, 2021 [27 favorites]


I really do think they'd speak up if orders were half of what was stated publicly

Oh I'm sure they got the orders. Paid for and delivered to the government, diverted for Jared to sell to private "distributors" at a personal profit after that? That's what his track record with PPE would suggest.
posted by ctmf at 3:56 PM on January 15, 2021 [16 favorites]


Yup. That's way more plausible than just not ordering what they said. Probably some improperly stored useless vaccine in some warehouse somewhere.

But I'd have to imagine that government employees were supposed to document the chain of custody, there will be a paper trail up to the point it leaves the hands of responsible CDC employees or whoever is supposed to handle these.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:07 PM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


“...Insurrection Act now as a result of the assault on the...
...martial law if necessary upon the first hint of any...”



Man. That first line is chilling. And if it weren’t obvious what is being proposed, the second line makes it crystal clear.

Someone in the inner circle is recommending, in writing, that Trump immediately invoke the Insurrection Act so he can declare martial law at the drop of a hat.

In writing. A day after the President was Impeached.

That the My Pillow guy is involved in this meeting is just surreal.
posted by darkstar at 4:12 PM on January 15, 2021 [37 favorites]


Newly-inducted Republican representative from Michigan Peter Meijer gave a long interview with the NY Times Daily podcast about why he voted to certify the election votes, his experience of the insurrection, and why he voted to impeach. I suspect I would agree with Peter Meijer on very little but it was an interesting conversation, and if you are looking for ways to start conversations about responsibility and accountability with conservatives in your life (or formerly in your life), sharing this might be a good inroad.
posted by ChuraChura at 4:13 PM on January 15, 2021 [22 favorites]


We have the facts, we have the proof. We just have no means to convince vast reaches of the United States.

which, please correct me if I'm wrong, is where Trump came in about five years ago


Well, Trump was a major factor in promulgating birtherism, so he's been using malicious and crooked lies to warp American reality for longer than just the past five years. He has been an incredibly dangerous agent against American democracy for decades. I think we forget too easily how evil the world view of Trump and his cronies, like Bannon, are, even *after* Trump tried to incite a riot in the capitol building. These guys have been pretty honest about who they are, but everyone who doesn't buy Trump's lies has still been involved in the mass delusion that these men *aren't* hell-bent on destroying the US completely.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 4:22 PM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]


I think someone upthread was asking if there's a list somewhere of everyone who has been charged in the Capitol attacks. The DOJ has a list here. Not sure how complete it is.
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 PM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


Curious ... FWIW, LARPer is an anagram of Parler.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 4:39 PM on January 15, 2021 [7 favorites]


Signal has now been down for 8 hours. The longer it's down the more I wonder if something is going on other than capacity issues.
posted by nicoffeine at 4:41 PM on January 15, 2021 [17 favorites]


When do Senator Warnock and Senator Ossoff get sworn in? Other thread someone said January 15 was a Georgia certification deadline.
posted by jointhedance at 4:49 PM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


Capitol Police intelligence report warned three days before attack that ‘Congress itself’ could be targeted


“Supporters of the current president see January 6, 2021, as the last opportunity to overturn the results of the presidential election,” according to the memo, portions of which were obtained by The Washington Post. “This sense of desperation and disappointment may lead to more of an incentive to become violent. Unlike previous post-election protests, the targets of the pro-Trump supporters are not necessarily the counter-protesters as they were previously, but rather Congress itself is the target on the 6th.”

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:52 PM on January 15, 2021 [12 favorites]


Some news about the Lincoln Project's John Weaver, because as we circle this event horizon everything has to happen at once.
John Weaver, a veteran Republican operative who co-founded the Lincoln Project, declared in a statement to Axios on Friday that he sent “inappropriate,” sexually charged messages to multiple men.

“The truth is that I'm gay,” he added. “And that I have a wife and two kids who I love. My inability to reconcile those two truths has led to this agonizing place.”
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 4:53 PM on January 15, 2021 [10 favorites]


Apparently actually broken more quietly earlier this week by Scott Steadman
John Weaver, a former top aide to Senator John McCain, Governor John Kasich, and a co-founder of the anti-Trump group the Lincoln Project, sent sexually suggestive messages to at least 30 young men and in some cases...[sexting, massages, "favors"]
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 4:56 PM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


I realized today that I cannot think of a single good thing the modern Republican Party has done, stood for, or accomplished.

Not one. As far as I can tell, their role in the body politic is to act as the obstacle to anything and everything good, and as agent of racism, misogyny, plutocratic authoritarianism, and war.

Can anyone think of anything good they've ever done? This is a serious question. I'm just...I'm not used to life presenting such clear and obvious villains.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:58 PM on January 15, 2021 [53 favorites]


Some news about the Lincoln Project's John Weaver, because as we circle this event horizon everything has to happen at once.

Reaganism wasn't good then, and it's not good now, because it, in part, helped to lead to all of this. The Lincoln Project are fundamentally the shitheads who were willing to wave away hatred and fascism until it became personally or commercially inconvenient. Sure, they've engaged in "effective" messaging, but they are the same people who would happily sacrifice a whole generation of gay men on the altar of conservatism and "family values."

Never forget that.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:59 PM on January 15, 2021 [24 favorites]


Newly-inducted Republican representative from Michigan Peter Meijer gave a long interview with the NY Times Daily podcast about why he voted to certify the election votes, his experience of the insurrection, and why he voted to impeach. I suspect I would agree with Peter Meijer on very little but it was an interesting conversation

Right - I didn't vote for him (I voted for the other white person of Dutch heritage (not knocking Dutch heritage here, but in West Michigan this describes a LOT of people)), but in that he's someone I probably couldn't agree with on just about anything, but I can still think he has a bit more honor than many Republicans, he's pretty much the perfect heir to Justin Amash's seat.
posted by LionIndex at 4:59 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Can anyone think of anything good they've ever done? This is a serious question. I'm just...I'm not used to life presenting such clear and obvious villains.

They supported phonics over whole language, and it turns out they were right about that. So they've got that going for them.
posted by clawsoon at 5:04 PM on January 15, 2021 [34 favorites]


"Can anyone think of anything good they've ever done? This is a serious question. I'm just...I'm not used to life presenting such clear and obvious villains."

Only Nixon could go to China? Also Nixon created the EPA.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:04 PM on January 15, 2021 [13 favorites]


Can anyone think of anything good they've ever done?

I think you have to go back to the Americans with Disabilities Act. That was 1990.
posted by nicoffeine at 5:04 PM on January 15, 2021 [20 favorites]


Can anyone think of anything good they've ever done?

"Ever" isn't so hard, but I have a hard time thinking of much after Ike (Interstate Highway system, DARPA, NASA).
posted by LionIndex at 5:04 PM on January 15, 2021 [7 favorites]


When do Senator Warnock and Senator Ossoff get sworn in? Other thread someone said January 15 was a Georgia certification deadline.

The deadline for Georgia counties to certify to the state is the 15th. The deadline for Georgia to certify statewide isn't until the 22nd.

When are votes certified in the state of Georgia?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:06 PM on January 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


(AP) Feds back away from claim of assassination plot at Capitol

"... cautioned Friday that the probe is still in its early stages and there was no 'direct evidence' of such intentions.

The [original] accusation came in a court filing by prosecutors late Thursday in Phoenix in the case against Jacob Chansley, the Arizona man who took part in the insurrection while sporting face paint, no shirt and a furry hat with horns."
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:07 PM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


I think PEPFAR (which funds HIV/AIDS treatments in other countries, and was put in place by the Bush administration in 2003) has legitimately done good things. Of course, the Trump administration kept trying to cut it...
posted by janewman at 5:10 PM on January 15, 2021 [8 favorites]


Can anyone think of anything good they've ever done?

aqueducts
posted by philip-random at 5:13 PM on January 15, 2021 [46 favorites]


"... cautioned Friday that the probe is still in its early stages and there was no 'direct evidence' of such intentions."

There was literally a fucking gallows built by the people chanting "Hang Mike Pence"
posted by mikelieman at 5:16 PM on January 15, 2021 [37 favorites]


Something occurred to me the other day. Imagine for a moment that you're a psychopath. You do not care about any human but yourself. You're a terrible, terrible person. One day, it enters your head to run for public office. It'll be great. You'll have lots of power to do good things for yourself. Hmm, what party should you choose. Let's look at the policies and platforms (if they have a platform) of the two major parties. After reflecting for a few nanoseconds, as a psychopath, you're certain to conclude that you're a Republican.

The Republicans have a psychopath problem because their polices and platforms are attractive to psychopaths. And no wonder, since their party contains virtually all the psychopaths.
posted by smcameron at 5:17 PM on January 15, 2021 [22 favorites]


There was literally a fucking gallows built by the people chanting "Hang Mike Pence"

Apparently they haven't gotten to that yet.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:18 PM on January 15, 2021 [6 favorites]


Also Nixon created the EPA.

Eh, the EPA would probably have been stronger without Nixon. "President Richard M. Nixon was not an environmentalist. But he saw the creation of an environmental agency as inevitable, and he sought to preempt Democrats who wanted to create one through legislation."
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:26 PM on January 15, 2021 [12 favorites]


MyPillow failed to collect New York state sales taxes from 2011-2015

I would like to preemptively note that it isn't actually hard for an online retailer to collect sales taxes, especially if they have a fairly limited line of products. There are several web services that do all the work for you, at least one of which is completely free (they all get a commission from the states in the sales tax compact), does all the paperwork, and submits the necessary payments for you. It literally took me a day or two to write a plugin for Magento to integrate with said provider back in 2012 or 2013.

There is literally no excuse for not properly collecting and remitting sales tax. People often whine about it, but it's really not expensive or even hard, you just have to be willing to actually do it.
posted by wierdo at 5:26 PM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]


I think someone upthread was asking if there's a list somewhere of everyone who has been charged in the Capitol attacks.

Capitol Hill Case Database [gwu.edu] (Federal cases only)
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:34 PM on January 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


I realized today that I cannot think of a single good thing the modern Republican Party has done, stood for, or accomplished.

Most people reach back to Eisenhower and the interstate highway system.

EPA was a Democratic congress creation but Nixon signed it.
posted by JackFlash at 5:55 PM on January 15, 2021 [12 favorites]


Inauguration Security Pauses Services For DC's Unhoused | DCist
Outreach workers are working double time to connect with unhoused people ahead of Inauguration Day. Their goal is to get the majority of people into shelters, or away from downtown to avoid confrontations with federal law enforcement.

“We’re hoping [the Secret Service agents] do not have to forcibly remove anybody, but that’s not really in the control of the city,” says Laura Zeilinger, the director of the D.C. Department of Human Services (DHS), the city agency in charge of providing services for people experiencing homelessness.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:19 PM on January 15, 2021 [6 favorites]


If they see us swinging and whiffing too many times, we will lose credibility.

Fortunately, I have my longform birth certificate.
posted by srboisvert at 6:24 PM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


Maddow and AOC discussing the growing reports around invoking Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment for people in Congress:
No Person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
posted by nicoffeine at 6:28 PM on January 15, 2021 [18 favorites]


Our country is broken. It's been purposely broken by the republican party.
posted by SoberHighland


Same is happening via 'conservative' parties throughout the Anglosphere, with the exception of New Zealand.

The common factor? Murdoch and his vile propaganda machine.

------------------

But if we're trying to convince other people, we need to keep our claims as solid as possible. If they see us swinging and whiffing too many times, we will lose credibility.
posted by Big Al 8000


This.

If you come at the king's army, don't miss.

A series of failed court cases against them, backed by a highly partisan Supreme Court, would be a disaster for the Biden admin and the country's prospects.
posted by Pouteria at 6:35 PM on January 15, 2021 [13 favorites]


How on earth can AOC and Maddow plausibly imagine Congress expelling any members? Who would possibly adjudicate such an attempt?
posted by PhineasGage at 6:45 PM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


It's less about who would adjudicate it, and more how do they expect to get 2/3 supermajority for any expulsions unless/until there are criminal charges or convictions.
posted by tclark at 6:49 PM on January 15, 2021 [7 favorites]


Signal has now been down for 8 hours. The longer it's down the more I wonder if something is going on other than capacity issues.

I am both glad for its newfound popularity and that the people who we should be worried about are too lazy and/or muddle-brained to make sure they are actually using it in a way that would prevent keeping evidence of their seditious conspiracy from being stored and easily accessible on their phones forever more.

That's not so helpful at preventing something from happening unless someone is actively attempting to man-in-the-middle new users/contacts, but it will keep them from getting away with it.
posted by wierdo at 6:49 PM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


@PhineasGage, my understanding is that the passage they quoted automatically applies if they engage in insurrection and it would require a 2/3rds vote to RESTORE them to the Congress, not to expel them.
posted by Freon at 6:50 PM on January 15, 2021 [17 favorites]


Yes I understand (I think tclark made the same mistake I did at first), but "automatically applies" has no useful meaning in the real world of the halls of Congress.
posted by PhineasGage at 6:52 PM on January 15, 2021 [6 favorites]


[To not abuse the edit window...] Who adjudicates "Engaged in insurrection"?!?!?!?!?!? They think they did nothing wrong.
posted by PhineasGage at 6:53 PM on January 15, 2021


Barring an actual civil war, it would almost certainly have to come with a conviction for some sort of sedition or insurrection-related charge.
posted by tclark at 6:56 PM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]


That the My Pillow guy is involved in this meeting is just surreal.

Yeah it didn't occur to me until you just said that, but it could be worse than a crazy MyPillow guy's notes of things to suggest to Trump. It could be that MyPillow guy just printed out the pre-read agenda sent out by someone else to all the meeting attendees, someone with an actual government position. (Which, with Trump, I guess the difference is small, since he will listen to anyone willing to say what he wants to hear.)
posted by ctmf at 6:59 PM on January 15, 2021 [6 favorites]


How on earth can AOC and Maddow plausibly imagine Congress expelling any members? Who would possibly adjudicate such an attempt?

It's their strategy for bootstrapping the Trump impeachment. If they can expel 25 Republicans from the Senate, they can convict with just 50 Democratic votes.
posted by JackFlash at 7:03 PM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


Expelling 25 members of the Senate is going to be a hell of a lot closer to impossible than convicting Trump with a full Senate.
posted by at by at 7:04 PM on January 15, 2021 [15 favorites]


Barring an actual civil war, it would almost certainly have to come with a conviction for some sort of sedition or insurrection-related charge.

I think the place to look into this is in how the former members of Congress were barred in the years immediately after the Civil War. Were people like Jefferson Davis tried and convicted of sedition or treason? (I think the answer is "no," but I'm not confident and don't have a source to hand.) If the answer is "no," then I'd like to know what if anything Congress did back then to establish that those traitors were actually, ya know, traitors. Was it simple majority vote by the members? By the members in just one chamber of Congress? Or in both? Or was it some more informal mechanism?
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 7:06 PM on January 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


"guaranteed the most comfortable coup you'll ever attempt!"
posted by 20 year lurk at 7:10 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]


Is it as simple as a court case plus a committee action? Victor L. Berger was prosecuted under the Espionage Act of 1917, and it seems like a Congressional Committee then used his conviction and the 14th Amendment to deny him a seat. Though he did later sue and win in front of the Supreme Court in Berger v. United States.
posted by nicoffeine at 7:12 PM on January 15, 2021


Who adjudicates "Engaged in insurrection"?!?!?!?!?!? They think they did nothing wrong.

If I'm reading this right, a simple majority of both houses finding the member engaged in insurrection is all it takes to activate A14S03.

And that's totally a thing now.

It'll end up in the courts, but hey, why not go all-in.
posted by mikelieman at 7:20 PM on January 15, 2021 [4 favorites]


Forgive me for not staying up late waiting for any of this fantasy to come true. I think Maddow does real damage to the country with this kind of sophomoric imagining.
posted by PhineasGage at 7:20 PM on January 15, 2021 [12 favorites]


It could be that MyPillow guy just printed out the pre-read agenda sent out by someone else to all the meeting attendees, someone with an actual government position.

Does anyone know what the blacked-out section in this photo contains? It's hard to tell if it was actually blacked-out on the paper (in which case, I wouldn't expect anyone non-Trumpy to know), or if was redacted in post for some reason. If it's the latter, I'd love to know what's there and why it was withheld.

Also, maybe some font experts can weigh in on the typeface used in that document? It doesn't look like standard US Government 12-point-Times-New-Roman-in-MS-Word. Although I know newer versions of Word suck less at typesetting than old versions, it almost looks like it was written in LaTeX or something.
posted by Kadin2048 at 7:22 PM on January 15, 2021 [1 favorite]




It seems almost like Lincoln invoking the Insurrection Act maybe was the closest thing to formally labeling the Confederates as guilty of insurrection? Insurrection and rebellion in US law looks like a weird bootstrappy thing in some places from what bits of research I've done but I'm out of my depth here. But yeah, not many formal trials of Confederates, so it does seem like just a blanket application of the label.

Also maybe somebody should put a bug in Trump's ear that if he touches the Insurrection Act and is later found in court to have been a prime mover of the insurrection, well, seems like somebody just 14th'd themselves...
posted by jason_steakums at 7:25 PM on January 15, 2021


Forgive me for not staying up late waiting for any of this fantasy to come true. I think Maddow does real damage to the country with this kind of sophomoric imagining

I tend to agree. No one's getting expelled. It's not even a given anyone from Trump on down will be charged with anything. If the swearing in goes smoothly, I think by end of February both houses of Congress just move along with any noise about _waves hands_ shouted down as needing to move on.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:25 PM on January 15, 2021 [6 favorites]


Only ten republican representatives voted to impeach. So how bipartisan was this impeachment, really? Answer: The most bipartisan impeachment ever.

Maybe ten doesn't sound like much. But in this case it is. Impeachment is extremely serious. But at the end of a day it's a political, not a legal, process. The House of Representatives decides what warrants impeachment, no one else. And their decision is final. For even one party member to vote against their party's president when the consequences are so severe is no small matter.
posted by mono blanco at 7:29 PM on January 15, 2021 [12 favorites]


Is there a way I can legally cost the MyPillow guy money? Like, order and return or something. Dude is a menace.
posted by aramaic at 7:32 PM on January 15, 2021 [7 favorites]


Re: pillowy Mike Lindell. "The president will declare martial law" has been a line in those hoax National Guard letters for a good while. The letters reference Guard deployment, the Stafford Act, and instituting a mandatory quarantine. Now that the Guard deployed (20,800 Guard members are participating in the COVID-19 response mission across the country, 15K were initially authorized - on Monday - to head to DC after the insurrection), Stafford is getting swapped for Insurrection. It's a cult which terrorizes its own followers, before inflicting them on non-believers.

43 National Guard Troops in DC for Inauguration Test Positive for COVID-19 (military.com, Jan. 15, 2021) Of the roughly 7,000 Guardsmen currently deployed to the District of Columbia, there are now 43 positive cases of COVID-19, Air Force Capt. Tinashe Machona, spokesman for the D.C. National Guard, said in a statement. The spike in cases comes as the Pentagon has increased the Guard authorization for inauguration security in D.C. to 25,000, a jump of 10,000 over the past 24 hours.

MyPillow Guy Presents Trump With ‘China’ Election-Fraud Theory, Lawyers Send Him Packing (The Daily Beast, Jan. 15, 2021) Lindell says that after a “five-to-ten minute meeting” in the Oval, Trump asked someone to take the MyPillow inventor to a different room to show his documents to “the lawyers,” and then asked for staff to bring Lindell back afterwards. Following a roughly two hour wait, according to Lindell, he finally met with White House attorneys who dismissed his claims but said they would “look into it.” He was then not allowed to see the president again on Friday.

During the meeting, Lindell says that he informed President Trump—who after inspiring a deadly riot at the U.S. Capitol last week still hasn’t accepted that his Democratic opponent beat him in the 2020 presidential election—that materials alleging China and other nations’ involvement in a supposed anti-Trump election-hacking operation were “all over the internet,” but were being suppressed by Big Tech [and] told the president, “Mr. President, this is real, you really won by at least 10 million votes.”

Liindell hands Trump 6 pages, Trump barely looks at the first two pages; Lindell hands over an article from an extremist outlet; the president seemed just as, if not more, interested in the pictures on the article, rather than the text or the chart. On the second page of the report, a copy of which Lindell sent to The Daily Beast, are two photos of a man and a woman. “The president asked who the images were and I said I don’t know,” Lindell said. [The photos are side-by-side pictures of Russian anti-virus magnate Eugene Kaspersky and his ex-wife, Natalya Kaspersky.]

Trump's too vain for the glasses he needs; he's not going to read any pages handed to him, Mike. Brush up on your elevator-pitch skills for future presentations (held in international waters), or shell out for a Madison Avenue team.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:36 PM on January 15, 2021 [18 favorites]


Bit late to min. wage increase conversation and came here to say that if working full time, after taxes, in PA (for instance), one person's annual wage would be $23,539. That's STILL not a living wage. It's just...not.
posted by erattacorrige at 7:39 PM on January 15, 2021 [5 favorites]


Haberman was on the byline of the "leaks" from McConnell's office three days ago, that he was pleased by impeachment and hoping to purge Trump from the GOP. Milk in a sauna ages better than that story has.

This account is so specific and multifaceted. I really think there's no way people observed the meeting at this level of detail, without their cover being blown by her accounting of it. So either they're staying anonymous for no good reason, or she's making it up, or this is yet more narrative laundering.

We're seeing endgame behavior from many people in the cheetosphere. Many have been fleeing the sinking ship, but Boebert is challenging metal detectors in the Capitol. Gaetz is asserting that antifa was responsible for the riots. Greenwald is lying about trivially-provable details to pretend Parler was just another social network.

I think this tweet thread may be Haberman's contribution.
posted by Riki tiki at 7:48 PM on January 15, 2021 [11 favorites]


"Expelling 25 members of the Senate is going to be a hell of a lot closer to impossible than convicting Trump with a full Senate."

So, conviction in the Senate only requires 2/3 of the ATTENDING members, and only 51 members are needed for a quorum. It's not impossible that McConnell would order most of his caucus not to attend, and let the Democrats convict Trump on party lines, which would both give McConnell the conviction he appears to want AND let him campaign against it forever.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:53 PM on January 15, 2021 [16 favorites]


You know, in this desperate, dangerous time, one thing sustaining me is the hope that I will get to be disappointed in the president not going far enough instead of being horrified at how far the president’s gone.
posted by sgranade at 7:53 PM on January 15, 2021 [31 favorites]


Judge orders home arrest for man pictured with feet on desk in Pelosi's office
Immediately after Fayetteville, Ark.-based U.S. Magistrate Judge Erin Weidemann announced she planned to release Barnett on “very, very restrictive conditions,” Assistant U.S. Attorney Kim Harris asked that Barnett’s release be delayed for three days so that lawyers from the U.S. Attorney’s office in Washington could appeal the decision.

Soon after the court session, Weidemann issued a brief order denying the stay. She said she was confident Barnett could "easily be taken back into custody should the release order be overturned." He's expected to be released Saturday.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:04 PM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


I wonder if the My Pillow guy will be replaced by the MeUndies guy under the Biden administration.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 8:05 PM on January 15, 2021 [13 favorites]


So, conviction in the Senate only requires 2/3 of the ATTENDING members, and only 51 members are needed for a quorum. It's not impossible that McConnell would order most of his caucus not to attend, and let the Democrats convict Trump on party lines, which would both give McConnell the conviction he appears to want AND let him campaign against it forever.
posted by Eyebrows McGee


That could backfire on McConnell and the Repubs, if (if) the Dems can work the sales pitch.

Something about shirking duty, in a way that would never be allowed in any other job, these sorts of hard decisions are what members of congress get paid to make, etc.
posted by Pouteria at 8:55 PM on January 15, 2021


One of the Capitol deaths due to a medical emergency: Kevin Greeson, 55, of Athens, Alabama had a heart attack.

The Radicalization of Kevin Greeson (Pro Publica, Jan. 15, 2021) In 2009, Kevin Greeson traveled from Alabama to witness the inauguration of President Barack Obama, at the time one of his political heroes. Twelve years later, a stone’s throw from where Obama had been sworn in, Greeson died of a heart attack while demonstrating in support of President Donald Trump during the Jan. 6 siege of the Capitol.

For most of his adult life, Greeson got the majority of his news from mainstream sources like CNN and AL.com, according to his wife, Kristi. But over the past few years, Greeson gravitated toward Fox News and other conservative outlets as he became enamored with Trump [...] In the days after Trump lost his reelection bid in November, Greeson posted on Parler that he, like many diehard Trump fans, no longer trusted Fox News, and that the cable channel had “jumped ship.” Instead, he declared that he would only consume news produced by the pro-Trump, far-right outlet Newsmax, and that he would use Parler instead of Facebook. [...] In the weeks after the election, Greeson posted a series of violent messages on Parler, calling for people to take up arms against a political system he considered corrupt. He shared support for the white supremacist Proud Boys movement, called for Obama to “be put to death” and expressed his apparent hope that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi would die of COVID-19.

posted by Iris Gambol at 9:04 PM on January 15, 2021 [27 favorites]


We're seeing endgame behavior from many people in the cheetosphere. Many have been fleeing the sinking ship

Ah, but on the other side we see all of the people who, you guessed it: have got a lot of god damn nerve. This is pretty much the all-time championship for nerve-havers. I wonder if the likelihood of former staffers being able to get a job somewhere else after all this increases the longer they stay. Like Stephen Miller, that guy's gonna be set for life. He may already be pardoned!
posted by rhizome at 9:54 PM on January 15, 2021


Suggesting that it is in any way realistic that a couple dozen Republican Senators might be expelled from the Senate is pure fantasy. Seriously.

RE: Lindell, I see now that I originally misunderstood, and that he was likely the idiot that brought those crackpot notes about the Insurrection Act. So that eases my mind, somewhat. Not that such ideas are being discussed, but at least it was only a proposal by an idiot hanger-on, as opposed to an idiot in the actual inner circle of advisors.

Finally, from last thread, someone posted about how the Buffalo-horned, Capitol insurgent/LARPER dude said he wanted a Presidential pardon. It got me to thinking about just how outrageous it would truly be if the President could incite an insurrection against Congress and then pardon the insurgents.

I mean.
posted by darkstar at 10:02 PM on January 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


Suggesting that it is in any way realistic that a couple dozen Republican Senators might be expelled from the Senate is pure fantasy.

That. Is why you fail.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:19 PM on January 15, 2021 [35 favorites]


Texas Real Estate Agent Who Took Private Jet to Capitol Riot Is Arrested

And is asking for a Presidential Pardon. The entitlement, it burns.
posted by phigmov at 10:30 PM on January 15, 2021 [11 favorites]


51% say GOP leaders didn't go far enough in nullifying election
56% say Trump bears zero blame for the insurrection
66% say he has acted responsibly


can we "deplorables" yet
posted by away for regrooving at 11:03 PM on January 15, 2021 [34 favorites]


Soon after the court session, Weidemann issued a brief order denying the stay. She said she was confident Barnett could "easily be taken back into custody should the release order be overturned." He's expected to be released Saturday.

Unless I'm confusing my pretrial release orders, he's getting an ankle monitor. I believe he is allowed to go to work, however, so he could probably catch the XNA-LGA flight and Amtrak to DC before they noticed, if the flight is still running in these times of COVID.
posted by wierdo at 1:04 AM on January 16, 2021


So either Parler is actively assisting law enforcement or the FBI now has untrammelled access to everything on Parler. They've been able to get the associated telephone number, email address, IP address* and photo** of at least one insurrectionary.

* I mean, if I were plotting serious crimes, I'd for sure use burner accounts, VPN and TOR. Hell, I use those for Bit torrent and the likes. Still, when Nick Fuentes is suggesting that, to avoid arrest, insurrectionaries simply destroy their phones, we may not be dealing with technological sophisticates.

**As people have already noted, it takes a special kind of cognitive dissonance for these paranoid freedom-lovers to join a social network that asks for photo ID. Parler didn't intend to become a honeypot, it was just so amateurish that it became one by accident!
posted by deeker at 2:53 AM on January 16, 2021 [8 favorites]


Parler didn't intend to become a honeypot, it was just so amateurish that it became one by accident!

I'm not sure about that. It was started by a guy who suddenly married a Russian with close ties to the Russian government. And there is still this thing about the Mercers and the Russians that we never got an answer for. (You know, the server in the Trump Tower...)*
Now the Russians most certainly have the names, adresses and photos of some of the most ignorant and excitable Americans, and they can use that information to spam them with disinformation. It doesn't matter a bit to the Russians that the FBI has the data too. It might even be a good thing from a Russian perspective, since now they can tell the idiots that the deep state is after them with some element of truth to it.

* BTW, everyone treats the Mueller report like it's a done thing, but we still don't know what's behind those redactions. Maybe the new AG could take at look at that.
posted by mumimor at 3:23 AM on January 16, 2021 [27 favorites]


Bit late to min. wage increase conversation and came here to say that if working full time, after taxes, in PA (for instance), one person's annual wage would be $23,539. That's STILL not a living wage. It's just...not.

We've been fighting for $15 so long, we now need $25 just to break even.
posted by mikelieman at 3:28 AM on January 16, 2021 [23 favorites]


Ha! You're quite right, mumimor - it does seem likely that Russia was heavily involved, both to shit-stir and, as you say, gather intel. I meant it didn't start out as an FBI honeypot - but a honeypot is a honeypot and I'm sure the FBI don't care who made it that way now their hands are deep inside the yummy, yummy honey...
posted by deeker at 3:34 AM on January 16, 2021 [1 favorite]


I'm glad the old double standard is still in play.

REPUBLICANS: Tried to overthrow democracy. Believe democrats are secret baby-eating alien pedophiles. CONTROVERSY!

DEMOCRATS: May have dressed too casually on a magazine cover. CONTROVERSY!
posted by mmoncur at 4:05 AM on January 16, 2021 [13 favorites]


$15 is a decent enough federal minimum wage. It should probably be more like $18 at this point, but there are still vast swaths of the country including some 1 million plus metros where a third will pay rent or even a mortgage on a decent place.

Ideally, it either would be based on the cost of living in each MSA or states with higher cost of living would have their own higher minimum wage.

Even better than that, come to think of it, would be to get back to where the only people making minimum wage were high school students in their first job. That would require much stronger unions or a much tighter job market, though.
posted by wierdo at 4:06 AM on January 16, 2021 [11 favorites]


A brief NBC interview with the cop seen being crushed in the doorway in the viral video:

"We were here just fighting with everything we had to push it back. I got pinned to the doorway, they ripped my mask off, stole my equipment, beat me up, sprayed me with everything...

If it wasn't my job, I would've done that for free. It was absolutely my pleasure to crush a white nationalist insurrection. I'm glad I was in a position to be able to help. We'll do it as many times as it takes."

posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:12 AM on January 16, 2021 [96 favorites]


It could be that MyPillow guy just printed out the pre-read agenda sent out by someone else to all the meeting attendees, someone with an actual government position.
Anybody who blanks out sections of a document they wrote themselves is either droolingly deranged or running an improbably smart smokescreen. I’d suggest someone else wrote it. Tentatively.
posted by rongorongo at 4:22 AM on January 16, 2021 [3 favorites]


DEMOCRATS: May have dressed too casually on a magazine cover. CONTROVERSY!

To be fair, it’s not the democrats being criticised for this cover, it’s Vogue. The various accusations are
- poor lighting for her skin tone: very controversial and not uncommon in photo shoots of POC in recent years, including Vogue.
- bad styling: they probably shouldn’t dress her up in a $10,000 ballgown but I believe she is wearing her own suit in the cover, which I’m torn about. If she insisted and she is comfortable then ehhhh okay. But it’s also the cover of Vogue. I do expect some modicum of fabulous. I have no issue with the Converse though, that’s her signature.
- lazy set design: I also read that the fabric colors are the colors of her sorority, which I’m not the most convinced about. Simple fabric backgrounds can work (a photo shoot for Beyoncé in the last couple of years comes to mind) but it does seem lazily applied
- creative direction: is it too casual? Casual is not necessarily the problem I have with it. Harris looks great but I wanted to gasp. I did not gasp.
posted by like_neon at 4:26 AM on January 16, 2021 [13 favorites]


To be fair, it’s not the democrats being criticised for this cover, it’s Vogue. The various accusations are ...

Regardless of who's being criticized, or what the exact criticisms are: we're still talking about the styling and photography on the cover of a fashion magazine. In the midst of a violent fascist insurrection, this is approximately the 999,999th most pressing concern at the moment.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:59 AM on January 16, 2021 [19 favorites]


I thought this was a joke, but it is, in fact, Trump's official schedule for the past couple of days.
President Trump will work from early in the morning until late in the evening. He will make many calls and have many meetings.
posted by clawsoon at 5:02 AM on January 16, 2021 [29 favorites]


He will not come out to play.
posted by pyramid termite at 5:05 AM on January 16, 2021 [33 favorites]


Pentagon Won’t Throw Traditional Farewell Ceremony for Trump: "The Pentagon, in a break with recent tradition, will not host an Armed Forces Farewell tribute to President Donald Trump."
posted by clawsoon at 5:08 AM on January 16, 2021 [52 favorites]


In a desperate effort to look on the bright side, the riot itself was quite the honeypot. I can't imagine anything else which would definitively catch so many violent right-wingers.

I'm looking forward to investigation of reconnaissance tours-- that might be enough to lead to getting a few members of Congress thrown out.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:31 AM on January 16, 2021 [14 favorites]


If it wasn't my job, I would've done that for free. It was absolutely my pleasure to crush a white nationalist insurrection. I'm glad I was in a position to be able to help. We'll do it as many times as it takes."


We’re gonna need a committee to hand out medals.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:48 AM on January 16, 2021 [29 favorites]


Pentagon Won’t Throw Traditional Farewell Ceremony for Trump: "The Pentagon, in a break with recent tradition, will not host an Armed Forces Farewell tribute to President Donald Trump."
posted by clawsoon at 22:38


Another first!

First president to be twice denied a military parade.

That's gotta hurt almost as much as the world finding out he is actually broke.
posted by Pouteria at 6:07 AM on January 16, 2021 [30 favorites]


DEMOCRATS: May have dressed too casually on a magazine cover. CONTROVERSY!
At least she wasn't wearing a brown suit.
posted by MtDewd at 6:50 AM on January 16, 2021 [8 favorites]


Paraphrasing from some long-lost tweet: Trump will be the first President to have fewer buildings named for him after his term in office than before.
posted by at by at 6:51 AM on January 16, 2021 [51 favorites]


Paul Campos, LGM: Games Without Frontiers
Until about 17 seconds ago, both Donald Trump’s completely open embrace of ethno-nationalist authoritarianism and the cult of personality centered on him that this embrace created were still treated as basically jokes by most if not all elite discourse in the United States. Sure, it was uncomfortable and distasteful and maybe even a little disturbing, but it wasn’t serious. [...]

And in a sense this elite delusion wasn’t even delusional. There’s a sense in which Donald Trump isn’t serious, because a pathologically narcissistic sociopath can’t be serious about the stuff presidents are supposed to be serious about — political ideas, actually governing, moral leadership, all that stuff — because he can’t be serious about anything except his own self-aggrandizement.

And there’s also a sense in which even many of Trump’s most fanatical followers aren’t serious either — it’s all for the 4chan lulz, it’s all to troll the libs, it’s all ultimately a big reality television social media internet game, played by people who don’t ultimately take that game all that seriously. Because they’re white, mainly, which means they believe they have the privilege — and they’re often confirmed in this belief — of acting like what they do in life doesn’t really count against them.

Donald Trump’s entire life is nothing but a monument to the belief that it is possible to live a consequence-free existence, which is the real reason his followers adore him. [...]

But it turns out that games can go too far, and then suddenly it does count.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:56 AM on January 16, 2021 [28 favorites]


I think Maddow does real damage to the country with this kind of sophomoric imagining.

I don't know that it's actively harmful, but I agree that it's not helpful. See also Seth Abramson's regular fanfic.

A number of people seem to think part of the problem is Dems don't have a big enough propaganda machine, to which I would refer them to the rhetorical stylings above. It exists, a lot of us just find it annoying/unpersuasive.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:11 AM on January 16, 2021 [18 favorites]


Regardless of who's being criticized, or what the exact criticisms are: we're still talking about the styling and photography on the cover of a fashion magazine. In the midst of a violent fascist insurrection, this is approximately the 999,999th most pressing concern at the moment.

You clearly think fashion is silly and unserious - lots of people don't, and examining how one of the major publications of the industry presents the first Black woman VP right out of the gate is not useless.

Especially because, as I understand it, part of the problem is that Harris' team was expecting an entirely different photo - IOW, a wealthy powerful white woman (Anna Wintour) basically told a Black woman, "Nah, I don't care what you think about how you want to present yourself, I don't care how powerful and accomplished you are, I get to decide what your image is." And that's a problem.

I mean, that's part of how you get a Trump in the first place - white women deciding they know what Black women need more than the Black women themselves.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:18 AM on January 16, 2021 [77 favorites]


We got 999,999 problems, but Vogue ain't one.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:51 AM on January 16, 2021 [9 favorites]


Something I've been thinking about is the way that years of disinformation and lies has shaped discourse on the left as well as the right. We've gotten used to anxiously trying to avoid saying or doing anything that could possibly be misinterpreted. There's this attempt to police ourselves and each other before the right even gets involved. We've forgotten what it's like to be able to just speak and act without making doomed attempts to anticipate and manage the reaction of a bunch of psychopaths who will twist whatever we say into the worst possible shape.

I feel like I sort of see that happening in the discussion around the $1400 vs. $2000 checks. Like, yeah, $2000 would be better than $1400, and the messaging around it could have been clearer. But also, it's pretty obvious to any reasonable person what's going on: there wasn't major deception or incompetence behind it, and we're all basically on the same side when it comes to getting more money out to people as fast as we can.

But, gotcha - any reasonable person is not our target audience. The goalposts keep moving, until the standard for the Democrats becomes: 'don't say or do anything that could possibly be misinterpreted by people acting in bad faith.' Which is impossible, and yet every time it happens, there's this massive anxiety spike as people blame each other: look what the Democrats did now! They're going to fuck it up! Oh no oh no oh no! Which is then matched by an equivalent spike of anxiety around disagreeing with each other at all - because what if that gets misinterpreted and we don't have the unity that the Republicans have, we have to stick together or they'll get us, oh no oh no oh no. All this heightened tension gets directed inward, instead of outward: having given up on the idea that anyone on the right might make half an effort to understand us, or let even a minor mistake go, we pour a ton of energy into trying to micromanage ourselves and each other.

It's a kind of trauma reaction, I think. I'm not sure what the cure for it is. But it's interesting to imagine what political conversations would look like without the constant underlying drumbeat of: what is Fox News going to say about this? Answer: they're going to say we suck and everything we've done is terrible. There's nothing we can do or say that they won't criticize. I, too, agree that $2000 would have been better than $1400...but I also think that any reasonable person can understand what's happening and that the Dems were basically acting in good faith. The fact that lots of people out there aren't reasonable and will seize on this as an excuse to say: "Look! the Democrats are a bunch of sleazy lying politicians who are just as bad as the Republicans!" is something I cannot change, and so I'll focus my efforts on matters I can actually do something about.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 8:09 AM on January 16, 2021 [89 favorites]


Most people are not going through these mental gymnastics. They heard Joe say they'd get a $2K check after he was in office. And, again, what's wrong with that? Why not do it?

The complaint is that the Democrats don't know how to pick up the ball and run at the goal line after one of the most monumental fumbles in American political history.

It's 0-56 for the last four years and they're fine with a touchback.

Maybe some of that feeling is an overreaction or is premature, but it's a learned reaction and expectation. I hope the Dems prove it wrong.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:51 AM on January 16, 2021 [4 favorites]


They heard Joe say they'd get a $2K check after he was in office. And, again, what's wrong with that? Why not do it?

bluntly, and letting my inner fiscal conservative speak for a moment, that extra $600 times many millions of people = a f*** of a lot of money.



[I'm not necessarily against it but when you get to this level of increased cash flow, I can see counterarguments for what could be done with it all -- starting with big infrastructure projects. But I'll let others with more than an entry level grasp of economic theory speak to that.]
posted by philip-random at 9:00 AM on January 16, 2021 [4 favorites]


Left-wingers, liberals, Democrats, call them what you will, tend to have a lot less interest in propaganda. One of our values is rationality. Another one of our values is learning from history. Propaganda is rightly seen as dangerous and counterproductive. Of course that means we have less tools than the Right. We always do, when we refuse to cheat and lie and ratfuck in the same way they do. That absolutely hobbles our movement. But it also makes our movement worth fighting for. If we stoop to their level we lose the very thing that distinguishes us from them.

It truly rankles me. I hate that they can get away with so much and that we have to be so much better. I hate it every time Michelle Obama says "They go low, we go high." But I accept it. If we, too, were to write off democracy and just try to have our mob rule be bigger and better than their mob rule, we'd end up trading a homegrown Hitler for a homegrown Stalin.
posted by rikschell at 9:00 AM on January 16, 2021 [13 favorites]


They heard Joe say they'd get a $2K check after he was in office.

Can you say where you heard this? Exactly what he said?
posted by JackFlash at 9:25 AM on January 16, 2021


Trumpworld plots exodus to Florida after Biden inauguration

A small political staff will be following him down from the White House. A senior administration official said a small core of staffers had been apartment hunting in West Palm Beach as they prepared for their new roles.

And Don Jr. and his girlfriend Kimberly Guilfoyle are planning to move to Florida, according to the New York Post.

“There is no way they can stay in New York. They’d be tortured in the streets,” a source close to the family told the New York Post.




[thus opening things up for the God of the Old Testament to whip up the kind of storm that finally breaches the defences at Mar-A-Lago, sweeps everything into the sea.]
posted by philip-random at 9:25 AM on January 16, 2021 [12 favorites]


[I'm not necessarily against it but when you get to this level of increased cash flow, I can see counterarguments for what could be done with it all -- starting with big infrastructure projects. But I'll let others with more than an entry level grasp of economic theory speak to that.]

Giving people straight up cash is one sure fire way to both increase economic activity and get poor people out of poverty.

Infrastructure can also help in setting floors on wages, having to compete with the government in labor, but so can increased minimum wages.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:27 AM on January 16, 2021 [14 favorites]


Done right. It all can work together. I do agree that just giving people cash can be very effective in terms of Main Street level economics. Give the average person a hundred or a thousand bucks -- he's going to spend it less than twenty miles from home.

Another thought posed as a question. Will these be the only stimulus checks? The experts keep telling us that covid-19 will continue to be a concern for at least another year. "Normal" is not returning any time soon.
posted by philip-random at 9:32 AM on January 16, 2021 [2 favorites]


Gabrielle Ake (@gabrielle_ake):

Scooplet: A Senior Admin official confirms to me that the wording that has appeared on @POTUS's schedule lately: "President Trump will work from early in the morning until late in the evening. He will make many calls and have many meetings" was written by Mr. Trump himself
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:32 AM on January 16, 2021 [47 favorites]


> “There is no way they can stay in New York. They’d be tortured in the streets,”

haha "the streets" ha ha ha. They travel everywhere by limo, helicopter, and private plane. How afraid are the Trumps, really, if that much insulation feels insufficient for them?
posted by at by at 9:36 AM on January 16, 2021 [5 favorites]


Even better than that, come to think of it, would be to get back to where the only people making minimum wage were high school students in their first job.

I see no reason to pay children less for their labor, particularly is their wages are used to launch their lives to either college (which is unreasonably expensive), trade school, or whatever else.
To preempt an argument in response: there is no such thing as unskilled labor. All labor requires skills, otherwise, it wouldn't be...labor.
I think one of the core arguments against a much higher minimum wage comes as a response from economical propaganda that the 'lowliest' workers deserve less to keep the economy afloat (*clutches pearls*), rather than ensure that wages are distributed more fairly across the whole spectrum. This would more accurately look like lower wages for those at the TOP of the income distribution, not the bottom. But hey, that's just me, someone who has relied heavily on the welfare state to simply not die (even though I've been earning wages since I was like, 7 years old).
posted by erattacorrige at 9:37 AM on January 16, 2021 [24 favorites]


They heard Joe say they'd get a $2K check after he was in office.

Can you say where you heard this? Exactly what he said?


You could google it as easily as snarking and demanding someone else's labor, but here:

President-elect Joe Biden didn't mince words when stumping for Democrats Jon Ossoff and the Rev. Raphael Warnock : "If you send Jon and the Reverend to Washington, those $2,000 checks will go out the door." The Georgia runoffs are today.
[KHN.org]

Want bigger?

CNN: Biden says electing Georgia's Ossoff and Warnock would lead to $2,000 stimulus checks

Maybe it's not the greatest move to tell those GA voters they're not sophisticated enough to understand what they heard.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:37 AM on January 16, 2021 [32 favorites]


Oh, for heaven's sake, there's enough money to send every adult in this country 2000 dollars a month forever. The Pentagon might have to not build a plane every once in a while, but I think we'd be okay. It's silly to quibble over 600 bucks at a time like this. There's a nonzero number of people for whom the difference between 1400 and 2000 means staying in their homes.
posted by bink at 9:43 AM on January 16, 2021 [52 favorites]


haha "the streets" ha ha ha. They travel everywhere by limo, helicopter, and private plane. How afraid are the Trumps, really, if that much insulation feels insufficient for them?

I remember reading some article once where Trump explained the point of having money. It wasn't for security or the ability to buy nice things. He described how he was at a restaurant once and someone much wealthier than him, but who kept a low profile, came in, only to be told he'd have to wait because the tables were all full. Trump thought that was ridiculous: what was the point of having money if nobody recognized you? If nobody deferred to you? He (he said) could call that same restaurant at any time and they would always say "Of course, Mr. Trump" and never make him wait.

He and the rest of his family might not have to worry about people spitting at them on the street, but they won't be able to skip the lines at high-end NY venues anymore, and that's what matters.
posted by trig at 9:45 AM on January 16, 2021 [6 favorites]


he's going to spend it less than twenty miles from home.

Or on Amazon.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:46 AM on January 16, 2021 [5 favorites]


I think most people get that if they got $600 and then get $1400 more, they got $2k. I don't see a problem with advocating for $2k more, but really, saying an additional $1400 to make $2k total "isn't what was promised" smells like bad faith bullshit.
posted by tclark at 9:47 AM on January 16, 2021 [10 favorites]


I think Maddow does real damage to the country with this kind of sophomoric imagining.

I do understand the frustrations with Maddow, but I do think there needs to be much more emphatic pushing of the Overton window in a better direction, from many different angles of attack.
Part of moving opinion requires overshooting aggressively, so that the center has to at least start talking about it. I thought that this was the idea behind the Green New Deal.
posted by ishmael at 9:47 AM on January 16, 2021 [18 favorites]


Can you say where you heard this? Exactly what he said?

"$2,000 checks will go out the door."

Warnock had ads with a picture of a $2,000 check.

If the Dems can't get $2,000 because of Republicans then they need to say it. People are upset about backtracking to $1,400 because it looks an awful lot like the Dems bargaining against themselves for the eleventy billionth time. People are upset because the $600 difference is huge to many many people.

This isn't minor and I'm surprised how many people here think it is. If you say you're going to get people $2,000 checks, you need to get them $2,000 checks or blame someone else when you can't. Gaslighting about "they always meant $1,400" is weasely and dishonest and will crush a lot of people's faith in the new Dem leadership. It was a simple and clear message that resonated with people who don't pay attention to politics and desperately need the money. Voters will feel that missing money and they'll blame the people who promised it.
posted by Mavri at 9:48 AM on January 16, 2021 [40 favorites]


And not to abuse the edit window, but way back in March/April, I was advocating for regular monthly cash payments.
posted by tclark at 9:50 AM on January 16, 2021 [3 favorites]


saying an additional $1400 to make $2k total "isn't what was promised" smells like bad faith bullshit.

It doesn't have to be in bad faith to be poor politics, or for voters to feel shafted. Is "not in bad faith" the level of leadership we're aiming for? God, we're going to do it all again aren't we? The same old shit. We learn nothing.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:50 AM on January 16, 2021 [10 favorites]


Again, I'm not saying anything about whether additional $2k is or isn't called for, but "They said $2k, and if it's not $2k MORE, they were lying!" is absolutely what's happening here, and it's tiresome.
posted by tclark at 9:55 AM on January 16, 2021 [12 favorites]


saying an additional $1400 to make $2k total "isn't what was promised" smells like bad faith bullshit.

It literally isn't what was promised. People who point that out aren't acting in bad faith and they aren't too dumb to understand the political nuances of a picture of a $2,000 check. I'm not sure what this sort of defensive gaslighting is supposed to accomplish, but it's terrible politics. "Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes" does not win elections.
posted by Mavri at 9:56 AM on January 16, 2021 [15 favorites]


Yeah, at the point the statement is "Vote for Dems and $2000 checks go out the door", with images of a $2k check... you have to deliver a $2k check. No ifs, not buts, no "But it actually adds up to $2k".

Now's a sensitive moment, as many people above have noted. Now's the sort of once-in-a-generation opportunity to break people's expectations of Democrats as unable to deliver their promises. What're we going to do? Are we going to give people what we promised them? Or are we going to walk it back and confirm their suspicions while confirming all the worst beliefs in Democrats as paternalistic in the form of "We know better than you, so we'll tell you you got $2 grand while delivering a check for only $1400"?

The sort of instincts & worldview that's bringing people to trying to caper for $1400+$600 is a significant factor in why we're here to begin with, and if we don't turn this around it's going to be an easy 2022 midterm for the GOP to swing back with Tea Party 2.0.
posted by CrystalDave at 9:57 AM on January 16, 2021 [19 favorites]


It's also a little disingenuous to argue that $2000 per person doesn't add up to real money. One F-35 would only fund 40,000 checks these days. 330 million people is a lot. I'm totally on board with giving everyone $2000 monthly checks, and I'm also totally on board with cutting Pentagon spending to as close to $0.00 as we can get. But don't pretend this would be easy or that it wouldn't radically reshape our economy in ways the rich and powerful absolutely do not want and will have people killed over.
posted by rikschell at 10:00 AM on January 16, 2021 [8 favorites]


I mean, everyone has made their point about the 600 vs the 1400, I'm not sure why everyone thinks that making that point - but HARDER this time! - is gonna move the needle for anyone at this point. This is already like the third longboat thread in a week.

My question to all involved is simply this: who are these people angry about this supposed misdirection? Where in the real world of real activists is this conversation happening? Because, my social media and information circle is pretty left and the only place this discussion is even on the radar is here. Who in the actual media or activist world is making these arguments?

Also, I'm a little confused as to if we are getting upset on the behalf of Georgians who do not appear to be raising this point in any real numbers themselves or else are we arguing about speculatory lines of attack that may or may not occur at some point during the next election cycle? Neither puts out a lot of light or heat for the energy being dedicated.
posted by absalom at 10:01 AM on January 16, 2021 [9 favorites]


Mod note: Please stop talking about $1400 vs. $2000; points all made several times
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 10:02 AM on January 16, 2021 [86 favorites]


About money, on the one had I don't want to make perfect be the enemy of good, and on the other hand (a) people really need the money and will continue to need it for a good while, (b) bottom-up giving is, afaik, at least as helpful to the economy as top-down, and (c) I think it's insane that it's a commonly-held belief that voting Republican is better for your pocketbook than voting Democrat. It's one thing if one-percenters believe that - it should be true for them. But most of the people I know, regardless of income level, just treat that belief like a basic given (and almost everyone I know votes Democratic - but they do it despite that belief).

General investment in the economy is really important and good, but it takes time for the effects to be felt and it's hard to draw a clear line and say "the economy is doing this much better because of the bills Democrats passed two years ago". Actual infusion of cash is much easier to point to, and apparently does a lot of good as well. It shouldn't be the only thing this administration and Congress does, but I do hope they understand that this is one point in time where some economic populism would be legitimately, blessed-by-economists justified - and a real counterpoint to the white Christian nationalist populism that's been taking hold.

tl;dr Regular monthly payments please, either for everyone or for everyone earning under several multiples of the poverty level.

[on preview: oy.]
posted by trig at 10:04 AM on January 16, 2021 [6 favorites]


Not sure if it's been noted here that Trump's FB and Insta pages have been restored. His access to update them is uncertain. No posts from after DC.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:11 AM on January 16, 2021 [2 favorites]


Not sure if it's been noted here that Trump's FB and Insta pages have been restored. His access to update them is uncertain. No posts from after DC.

Those were both a one-week suspension rather than permanent ban, unlike Twitter.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:17 AM on January 16, 2021 [3 favorites]


HHS Secretary Azar has pseudo-resigned, citing the Capitol riot.
posted by jedicus at 10:20 AM on January 16, 2021 [3 favorites]


A number of people seem to think part of the problem is Dems don't have a big enough propaganda machine, to which I would refer them to the rhetorical stylings above. It exists, a lot of us just find it annoying/unpersuasive.

Absolutely this! It's this weird thing where the left acts like the right have masterminded this political juggernaut and we're so doomed if we don't play their game, and it misses entirely what the real game is: right wing propaganda doesn't work because it's propaganda and people are just naturally susceptible to that, it works because the effective method is stoking resentment and hatred and that's really easy, full stop. The "genius" puppeteers behind it all aren't sophisticated, they're bargain basement manipulative assholes like probably half a dozen jerks on a given city block, they've just got lots of money to spread it far and wide and a big boost from a lazy mainstream media that uncritically reports what everyone says as long as they think it won't upset their viewership and calls it a day. It's easy to say awful things that people are susceptible to and have them buy it if you don't have moral qualms about it! We don't need to be that and it doesn't work well if you're not manipulating hatred anyways. The positive version of that propaganda is just the long slow work of convincing people directly, no shortcuts.

One of our values is rationality.

Some days it really feels like that's a story we tell ourselves. Like yeah, by and large we listen to the science on climate change and a lot of other topics, but any facts that are even an inch deeper than the surface reading of a topic are a total crapshoot.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:22 AM on January 16, 2021 [16 favorites]


½-hr dry, wonky interview about the transition with Faiz Shakir, 2020 Sanders campaign chair and former ThinkProgress editor-in-chief, on PBS's Open Mind, interviewed by regular host Alexander Heffner. Transcript also at that link; broadcast last Monday, but recorded back in November, so there's nothing about the January 6 Putsch in it.

Haven't seen the Rachel Maddow Show interview yet, however on the Fourteenth-Amendment insurrectionists-can't-be-government-officers thing: sure, current serving members of congress are not actually going to be expelled.

But does it really hurt, in the course of figuratively discussing what pieces of traitorous shit our serving “representatives” are, to remind the audience that technically insurrection is supposed to be a virtually-punishable-by-ostracism unforgivable crime, with participant members of the military liable to capital charges for violating their oath of enlistment and a whole bunch of other stuff, for which the secular equivalent of a sacrament of absolution is really necessary to escape the hammer of justice? I guess I'll wait until I've seen it, but I am skeptical that Maddow really needs to be chided here.

I oppose the death penalty, but I have to imagine that there are people in countries all over the world where coups and autocoups happen on the regular looking at this and saying to themselves, “Wha... how are they all still alive? Why aren't you just lining them up against a wall and shooting them? They're just going to do it again!”

I was thinking maybe we could build a Rura Penthe oubliette prison in Antarctica for them all; but what would happen is that climate change would make the (seized in violation of Antarctic Treaties anyways, but how long are they going to last) land it was on prime seaside real estate, the private prison company would sell it to the tune of megabux, and then they'd fund another coup.

> I realized today that I cannot think of a single good thing the modern Republican Party has done, stood for, or accomplished. [...] Can anyone think of anything good they've ever done? This is a serious question. I'm just...I'm not used to life presenting such clear and obvious villains.

Everything I can think of, including the excellent examples provided above like phonics and Nixon-China and ADA and the EPA, seems “stopped clock” stuff, whereby their obstruction or a PR operation or stalking horse, by accident, happens to do something good that they probably didn't really intend or were indifferent to, even if they later claimed it for PR purposes. Or bet on both sides, or otherwise spread the poker chips around, like selling arms to both sides in the Iran-Iraq War^ or giving funding and arms to all the terrorist groups, and retroactively claimed true Scotsman, we-were-always-at-war-with-EastAsia^ affiliation with and support for whoever it's subsequently convenient to, with cherry-picked receipts.

Maybe the congressional Republicans who appeared to support the flash-in-the-pan Nixon impeachment process early on (with Clinton as congressional staff council...)? I think they at least get more points than the latter day's post-insurrection-impeachment bozos, but not enough to really bring them out of “evil” territory.
posted by XMLicious at 10:40 AM on January 16, 2021 [3 favorites]


Moving the Overton window on policy is something Dems absolutely need to get better at. Even when I disagree with the AOC/Bernie folks, I genuinely admire and appreciate their advocacy for more-leftist ideas.

But public fanfic - predicting political maneuvers that simply aren't going to happen - serves no useful purpose, raises expectations that can't be fulfilled, and ultimately makes us look like extremists or fools.
posted by PhineasGage at 10:54 AM on January 16, 2021 [11 favorites]


Manchin: "Removing Hawley, Cruz with 14th Amendment 'should be a consideration'

Joe Manchin!
posted by BungaDunga at 11:04 AM on January 16, 2021 [66 favorites]


But public fanfic - predicting political maneuvers that simply aren't going to happen - serves no useful purpose, raises expectations that can't be fulfilled, and ultimately makes us look like extremists or fools.

We'll see how it pans out, but it looks like some congresspeople coordinated with the mob (tours, texting about Pelosi during the riot, the mob having inside information about unmarked offices). If that's the case, aren't those grounds for expulsion, if not criminal prosecution?

Also, on preview, what Manchin said.
posted by ishmael at 11:09 AM on January 16, 2021 [15 favorites]


CNN reporting a Virginia man has been arrested with weapons and 500 rounds of ammunition. Reported to have fake inauguration credentials. He was stopped at a checkpoint.

(edit: to clarify, the checkpoint was in Washington, DC)
posted by nicoffeine at 11:15 AM on January 16, 2021 [10 favorites]


There's a big difference between convicting (in an actual Court, with clearly defined judicial authority) and then expelling several individual Congress members who engaged in illegal activity, versus saying "we're going to expel all those who engaged in insurrection by refusing to certify the election results," which includes well more than 100 Representatives and Senators.
posted by PhineasGage at 11:15 AM on January 16, 2021 [2 favorites]


it looks like some congresspeople coordinated with the mob

In which case they are probably liable to charges of seditious conspiracy, which carries a sentence of twenty years.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:25 AM on January 16, 2021 [6 favorites]


hate to say it but I think the Lincoln Project are moving faster, more realistically on a lot of this than any organized crowd I've seen on the left.

This Undemocratic Moment Must Be Met Head On

tldr: they're fascists. Go after their money ... with a vengeance
posted by philip-random at 11:28 AM on January 16, 2021 [11 favorites]


Mods, could we get a link to this thread in the sidebar? A few related posts were made around the same time and it's hard to figure out what's the new megathread or to find it once you do know. Well, now that I've commented it won't be hard for me, but it would be helpful for others.
posted by HotToddy at 11:29 AM on January 16, 2021 [4 favorites]


hate to say it but I think the Lincoln Project are moving faster, more realistically on a lot of this than any organized crowd I've seen on the left.

Not sure how you're able to deduce from a single interview with one guy that the Lincoln Project is somehow "moving faster, more realistically" than leftist organizations, or how they're already improvements over these supposedly ineffective orgs when neither Schmidt nor the rest of the LP have actually done anything yet.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:39 AM on January 16, 2021 [5 favorites]


I guess I'm speaking to the "propaganda" aspect -- getting the word out into the public realm. Making a noise that actually gets heard.
posted by philip-random at 11:44 AM on January 16, 2021 [2 favorites]


So, do we even have a government right now?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:46 AM on January 16, 2021 [3 favorites]


No not really, not until the adults in the room can actually take charge.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 11:48 AM on January 16, 2021 [5 favorites]


I guess I'm speaking to the "propaganda" aspect -- getting the word out into the public realm. Making a noise that actually gets heard.

Again, how do you know this is the case and how were you able to get that data from a puff-piece interview with Steve Schmidt?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:48 AM on January 16, 2021 [1 favorite]


because it's not the only piece I've seen. He's been popping up all over. His message is consistent and angry and focused. And sorry, I wouldn't call it a puff piece.
posted by philip-random at 11:51 AM on January 16, 2021 [1 favorite]


we're going to expel all those who engaged in insurrection by refusing to certify the election results,

I think if Manchin's for removing Cruz n Hawley, that provides some political cover for expelling those two.
Also, if Giuliani's botched phone call to Tuberville is any indication, there seems to have been deliberate coordination to decertify the election, even though many republicans knew better. The riot was a direct result of those efforts.
That would qualify for grounds for expulsion, no?
posted by ishmael at 11:59 AM on January 16, 2021 [2 favorites]


Yeah, we heard the same thing about Lincoln Project's ubiquitous appearances on network news and their ads during the election, and it turned out that they were almost comically ineffective at reaching people.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:59 AM on January 16, 2021 [19 favorites]


But public fanfic - predicting political maneuvers that simply aren't going to happen - serves no useful purpose, raises expectations that can't be fulfilled, and ultimately makes us look like extremists or fools.

Are we really in Overton Window territory, or frankly even talking about politics, any more?

Like, Biden has campaign stump pinky sworn that he'll end support for the war in Yemen, due to which—via direct involvement of shipping port blockades by the Saudis—more than a hundred thousand children have starved to death (cw: photo of possibly-starving children, I think? but one is smiling) so far. I'm not holding my breath for the military-industrial complex suddenly giving a shit through the magic of the folksy ol' Biden charm, though.

If political realism turns out to mean that American arms trafficking to Yemen is not going to stop, should we cease pointing out that it's bad and should stop?

Or, for example, connected to the war: our preeminent ally in the Middle East, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (open thread), is a monarchy that chops up reporters, whereas our chief nemesis, Iran, is a nominal democracy (a shade more democratic that the preceding US-installed monarch, at least... the people have some access to their own oil, instead of just giving it all to foreigners for peanuts) that does not-entirely-dissimilar things, including to MeFi's own. That's not going to change. So should we kinda-sorta not really advocate for democracy, for the sake of corporate synergy?

I think that subordinating our public discourse to American interests and partisan political interests is part of what has gotten us into the situation we're in now.
posted by XMLicious at 12:01 PM on January 16, 2021 [10 favorites]


It’s fine to believe that legislation to expel Members of Congress is exceedingly unlikely to succeed, and I agree with that belief. But it’s not okay to repeatedly say that either Maddow or AOC were engaging in “sophomoric imagining,” “public fanfic,” or “predicting” that members will actually be expelled. It’s approaching slander to continue claiming they were doing so, and it’s time to stop.

Here is what Maddow and AOC actually said about this. In my opinion Maddow, at least, comes nowhere close to painting this as likely to succeed - if anything, she raises skepticism about it. And for AOC’s part, I see her as making the case that removal would be the right thing to do - just because it’s unlikely to succeed, doesn’t mean it’s wrong to try.
RM: One of the things that we’ve started to report out a little bit is this newfound interest in the third clause of the 14th Amendment, which says if you participated in an insurrection or rebellion against the United States, you’re barred from holding office ever again. And that’s obviously come up in the context of the impeachment article that you voted for, and the majority of your colleagues voted for, against the President, but we’ve started to realize that it’s being discussed now, as far as we can tell, in terms of potentially invoking that against Members of Congress. So this is being investigated, we know, from Nancy Pelosi the House Speaker talking about that today. The GAO, the U.S. Capitol Police, and others are reportedly looking into Members of Congress and Congressional staff potentially being part of this thing. But in order to expel people, potentially, from Congress, and ban them for life from holding public office for having been part of something like this, Congress would have to act, as far as we can tell, and pass some sort of legislation in order to do it. I wonder if you feel like that might be ahead? I mean, it’s, it would be a - it would be a historic thing for Congress to take those steps because of worries about members in its midst. Do you think that’s possible, and that’s being worked on?

AOC: Well, you know, I don’t think the fact - it is absolutely historic, but this insurrection was quite historic, for infamous and violent reasons, as well. We have never had a breach of our Capitol in this respect. We have never had the Confederate flag make it into our nation’s Capitol, not even during the Civil War. And, frankly, you know, to see that there were Members of Congress cheering them on, calling them their people, their constituents, it, you know, there is a resolution that has already been drafted, and I’m a proud co-sponsor of it. This is Representative Cori Bush’s resolution to investigate and to, essentially, sanction and expel Members of Congress that have been found by investigation to be essentially working with - with the folks who flew a Confederate flag in our nation’s Capitol, and I don’t know how many of my colleagues need to be reminded of this, but the Confederacy were a band of enemies and traitors to the United States, and insurrectionists themselves, and they are not part of the United States, have never been part of the United States, and will never be part of the United States. And frankly, you know, if they find more sympathy with them, then perhaps they shouldn’t be serving in the United States Congress, and frankly they should - my belief is that if they believe the investigation - any investigations, particularly law enforcement investigations, will find them complicit or perhaps even assisting in such an attack, they should resign before they are removed. But, you know, with these investigations, the facts will bear out in due course.
posted by Dixon Ticonderoga at 12:12 PM on January 16, 2021 [46 favorites]


CNN reporting a Virginia man has been arrested with weapons and 500 rounds of ammunition.

That is the best news I have heard all day? Why? It confirms that these fools have no real leadership, military or insurgency expertise, planning or forethought.

If they had, they would have started bringing in their weapons and ammunition and distributing into DC caches weeks ahead of their highly visible coup attempt. Did they think they would be ignored by law enforcement after the 6th?

Also - if they had an ounce of brains, they wouldn't be attempting to bring in their weapons/ammo using their own pickup trucks...
posted by rozcakj at 12:17 PM on January 16, 2021 [8 favorites]


Oh, for heaven's sake, there's enough money to send every adult in this country 2000 dollars a month forever.

This is not an argument about $2000 vs. $1400, which I agree with Eyebrows McGee has been thoroughly hashed, but just a note about this specific claim. There's a lot of misconceptions about how much money we're talking about here, and a lot of misconceptions about how big the US economy is relative to its population. But most of the information is pretty easy to find.

The US population is roughly 330 million, of which about 80% are adults 18 and over (US Census 2019 estimate), meaning there are about 260 million adults in the US. $2000 per adult is about $520 billion. $2000 every month is $24,000 per year, and $24,000 per adult is roughly $6.2 trillion.

The entire budget expenditure of the US Federal Government in 2020 was about $6.6 trillion (US Congressional Budget Office). $2000 checks for every adult every month would nearly double the size of the entire federal government's expenditures. As military spending was mentioned, the total spending on the US military for this fiscal year is roughly $900 billion when accounting for all sources (according to The Balance), or roughly $700 billion when accounting only for DoD spending (Wikipedia). Either way, a single $2000 check for every adult represents well over half the spending on the military. By comparison, the total spending on Medicare is roughly $640 billion (Peter G. Peterson Foundation), so a single $2000 check to every adult represents an additional 80% or so of spending on top of one of the larger existing entitlement programs.

The gross domestic product of the US was roughly $22 trillion pre-covid (St. Louis Federal Reserve). $2000/month checks for every adult would represent about 28% of the entire economic activity of the United States.

I am not trying to make any argument for or against increasing the amount of stimulus money sent out (though personally I am for it), but we need to be honest about what we're talking about. Even $600/person is a pretty significant amount of money ($156 billion, a bit over 2% of total government spending.) The kind of government spending we're talking about has real costs, and we don't do anyone any favors by pretending we're talking about chump change here. Better to be honest about the fact that yes, this is a lot of money, it's going to be expensive to pay off, but this is an absolutely necessary investment in the American people to ensure that we can recover from this crisis and rebuild an economy that can pay for this. And while it's a lot of money, we can, indeed, afford it, and our moral obligation is to do what's needed to save people's homes, jobs, and lives, right now, even if it is expensive.
posted by biogeo at 12:19 PM on January 16, 2021 [16 favorites]


Cracks in the wall:

Off-duty police were part of the Capitol mob. Now police are turning in their own.
It marks a notable break in the so-called “blue wall of silence,” an aspect of police culture that encourages officers to turn a blind eye to misconduct by fellow officers. Craig Futterman, who directs the University of Chicago Law Civil Rights and Police Accountability Project, said the Capitol riot was different.

“The ‘Code of Silence’ is fundamentally about loyalty to your fellow officer and that ‘no one understands what we’re going through but us,’ ” Futterman said. By contrast, there’s something “fundamentally anti-police” about storming the Capitol, he said.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:24 PM on January 16, 2021 [51 favorites]


Mod note: Quite a bit of noise deleted here. Please take the conversation about the economy, inflation, $1400 vs $2000 etc. to MeFi Mail or a separate thread. Let's keep this thread accessible and relevant for everyone. Thanks!
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:09 PM on January 16, 2021 [33 favorites]


“The ‘Code of Silence’ is fundamentally about loyalty to your fellow officer and that ‘no one understands what we’re going through but us,’ ” Futterman said. By contrast, there’s something “fundamentally anti-police” about storming the Capitol, he said.

Not to mention: "That fellow police officers were the target of much of the mob’s brutality is another important factor that may have prompted whistleblowing. U.S. Capitol Police officer Brian D. Sicknick was among the five people killed as a result of the riot. Dozens of other police officers were injured."

Whether it's justified anger that your so-called fellow officers seriously injured (killed?) fellow brothers-in-blue during the insurrection or wondering if said fellow officers would have your back during a similar incident at home, it's surprising/not surprising (not surprising/surprising?) that the Code of Silence is falling apart here.
posted by gtrwolf at 1:15 PM on January 16, 2021 [2 favorites]


WaPo: Misinformation dropped dramatically the week after Twitter banned Trump - Zignal Labs charts 73 percent decline on Twitter and beyond following historic action against the president

This is some hopeful news about the fragility of right wing propaganda networks.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:18 PM on January 16, 2021 [60 favorites]


Amazing what major multinational online media corporations can do when they try, huh?
posted by at by at 1:41 PM on January 16, 2021 [23 favorites]


Trump blows up the Arizona GOP on his way out , David Siders and James Arkin for Politico:
The fallout has been swift. Several thousand Arizona Republicans have abandoned the party since the U.S. Capitol riot that Trump helped to incite, with the majority of the defectors re-registering without a designated party, according to state elections officials. Business leaders are publicly recoiling from the GOP after party officials thrust Arizona into the center of Trump’s failed effort to overturn the election results, further dividing an already fractured party.

“Let us be clear: we find the weeks of disinformation and outright lies to reverse a fair and free election from the head of the Arizona Republican Party and some elected officials to be reprehensible,” read a full-page ad in The Arizona Republic this week from Greater Phoenix Leadership, a group of CEOs. “The political party organization and these elected officials, which some of us have supported in the past, have again embarrassed Arizona on a national stage.”
(Story links to a Twitter post saying 4937 Arizonans have switched registration away from Republican since January 6. 918 Democrats and 1493 others also changed their party.)

Sometimes I think of the country as 50% Republican and 50% Democratic, but Wikipedia's Political party strength in US states says:
On December 17, 2020, Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrats, 25% identified as Republican, and 41% as Independent. Additionally, polling showed that 50% are either "Democrats or Democratic leaners" and 39% are either "Republicans or Republican leaners" when Independents are asked "do you lean more to the Democratic Party or the Republican Party?"
South Dakota has one of the most virulently Republican governors in the country, but she beat the Democratic candidate by less than 4% - 51.0% to 47.6%. I would never have guessed that 47% of South Dakota voters would vote for a Democrat for governor if I hadn't looked it up.

(Arizona has 1,508,778 Republicans, 35%; 1,378,324 Democrats, 32%; and 1,355,665 Other, 31%.)

I think the best strategy for electing progressive Democrats to office is to focus on registering Democratic voters and getting out the vote, but I find it encouraging that some Republicans are disgusted enough by the attempted coup and conspiracy theories to actually change their registration. I think a LOT of people are pretty uninvolved in politics aside from voting, but vote Republican or Democrat out of inertia and loyalty and an issue or two they care about. When something happens to make a voter take a second look, whether it's a coup attempt or insulting state Republicans like Ducey or drastically underfunding schools, it's an opportunity for a Republican to step away from that inertia and take another look at non-Republican candidates.
posted by kristi at 1:41 PM on January 16, 2021 [29 favorites]


Memo from Incoming White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain to Incoming White House Senior Staff on the First Ten Days of the Administration

President-elect Biden is assuming the presidency in a moment of profound crisis for our nation. We face four overlapping and compounding crises: the COVID-19 crisis, the resulting economic crisis, the climate crisis, and a racial equity crisis. All of these crises demand urgent action. In his first ten days in office, President-elect Biden will take decisive action to address these four crises, prevent other urgent and irreversible harms, and restore America’s place in the world.

As previously announced, he will ask the Department of Education to extend the existing pause on student loan payments and interest for millions of Americans with federal student loans, re-join the Paris Agreement, and reverse the Muslim Ban. The president-elect will launch his “100 Day Masking Challenge” by issuing a mask mandate on federal property and inter-state travel — part of a critical effort to begin to bend the curve on COVID. And, we will take action to extend nationwide restrictions on evictions and foreclosures and provide more than 25 million Americans greater stability, instead of living on the edge every month.
On January 21, the president-elect will sign a number of executive actions to move aggressively to change the course of the COVID-19 crisis and safely re-open schools and businesses, including by taking action to mitigate spread through expanding testing, protecting workers, and establishing clear public health standards.
On January 22, the president-elect will direct his Cabinet agencies to take immediate action to deliver economic relief to working families bearing the brunt of this crisis.
Between January 25 and February 1, the president-elect will sign additional executive actions, memoranda and Cabinet directives. The president-elect will fulfill his promises to strengthen Buy American provisions so the future of America is made in America. He will take significant early actions to advance equity and support communities of color and other underserved communities.
posted by bluesky43 at 1:42 PM on January 16, 2021 [34 favorites]


Also, quoted above:
"These GOP lawmakers trying to backtrack like “I was NOT voting to overturn the election with a lie I fed my white supremacist base, I was simply amplifying concerns that challenge the legitimacy of Black electorates in Philadelphia and Detroit and Latino electorates in Arizona” -- Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
I 100% agree - but I hope we never forget how much the Arizona vote was thanks to Navajo Nation and Tohono Oʼodham Nation voters (seriously, those maps are pretty amazing).
posted by kristi at 1:45 PM on January 16, 2021 [60 favorites]


HaHa.gif

Hotel pulls plug on Hawley fundraiser
Loews Hotels announced Saturday that it won’t host a planned fundraiser next month for Sen. Josh Hawley at one of its Florida properties.

“We are horrified and opposed to the events at the Capitol and all who supported and incited the actions,” the company said in a statement posted to Twitter. “In light of those events and for the safety of our guests and team members, we have informed the host of the Feb. fundraiser that it will no longer be held at Loews Hotels.”
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:08 PM on January 16, 2021 [53 favorites]


The fallout has been swift. Several thousand Arizona Republicans have abandoned the party since the U.S. Capitol riot that Trump helped to incite, with the majority of the defectors re-registering without a designated party, according to state elections officials.

My mom is one of those people. She was registered as a Republican for years because it felt like the only meaningful impact she could have in AZ was to vote for the most moderate Republican in the primary. Now that the Democrats are viable in AZ, and the Republicans are going all-out crazy, she doesn't want to be associated with Republicans any more.

She's someone who is smart and reads/watches the news, but wasn't really dialed-in to how crazy the Trumpists have gotten. I told her about the election conspiracy nonsense and she was utterly appalled that someone as nuts as Lin Wood or Sidney Powell was advising the president. She seriously had no idea.
posted by creepygirl at 2:13 PM on January 16, 2021 [46 favorites]


Speaking of propaganda, here's a lovely pro-vaccine song that I don't seen in the threads yet: "Have The New Jab" - "Hallelujah" adapted by the Marsh Family
posted by clawsoon at 3:02 PM on January 16, 2021 [9 favorites]


Speaking of AZ, when my folks retired there ages ago, it was a place so conservative that even the Democrats ran on an anti-immigration platform. (They moved back to CA about 10-12 years ago because they got tired of the climate, political and otherwise). If even AZ can turn around, then there's (admittedly varying degrees of) hope for the other "red" states as well.
posted by gtrwolf at 3:12 PM on January 16, 2021 [9 favorites]


Cracked has been ... cracking lately, but they come through with this one: 4 Media Musings From The End of Donald Trump's America
posted by Melismata at 3:21 PM on January 16, 2021 [4 favorites]


Planning a Visit to the Donald J. Trump Library?

There are many reasons to visit the Donald J. Trump Presidential Library.

scholarly research
telling your kids about ‘before’
trying to understand historical context

Whatever your reasons, the administrative staff at the Presidential Library will make it their life’s mission to make your visit educational and inspiring.

In fact, for some of the staff who served Trump directly, it’s a condition of their parole

posted by philip-random at 4:19 PM on January 16, 2021 [15 favorites]


i have reached peak madness. the apotheosis of the trump coup attempt combining with the vaccination failure is truly a perfect storm of incompetence, malice, selfishness, and insanity.

the pinnacle, the mountaintop of me throwing up my hands (and wanting to actually throw up) is hearing my (rich, white, mid 30s) fervently anti-trump coworker who has invariably defended gov. newsom's handling of covid, say without a shred of self-awareness that she got the covid vaccine in LA, where not even frontline docs have got it yet, much less elderly, much less general population.

i just give up, man.
posted by wibari at 4:32 PM on January 16, 2021 [10 favorites]


A short (10-page) and to-the-point summary, from Network Contagion Research Institute: NCRI ASSESSMENT OF THE CAPITOL RIOTS: Violent Actors and Ideologies Behind the Events of January 6, 2021

"Bottom Line Up Front​:
● Virtually all violent vanguard elements appeared to come from predominantly far-right, fringe groups.
● Some in the crowd interpreted portions of President Trump’s speech as an instruction to march aggressively to the capitol building directly.
● High profile figures associated with the administration were also inciting violent sentiment and cued instructions previous to the event.
● Widely subscribed messianic ideology in QAnon, together with situational cues, created conditions that strongly favored mass enactment of its fantasy of insurrection.
● Explicit plans to “Occupy the Capitol” were circulating across social media suggesting that the capitol building was an explicit target of the violent vanguard from the beginning. Evidence suggests some rioters were armed with weapons and zip-ties.
● There is no credible evidence that the crowd was infiltrated or led by Antifa activists at this time."
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:07 PM on January 16, 2021 [28 favorites]


Washington Post:
Jan. 5, afternoon
An explicit warning from an FBI office in Virginia reaches the FBI Field Office in Washington. It states that extremists from at least four states are preparing to travel to Washington to commit violence and “war,” according to an internal document reviewed by The Post. Agents write that in an online thread they were monitoring, they observed this message: “Congress needs to hear glass breaking, doors being kicked in, and blood from their BLM and Pantifa slave soldiers being spilled. Get violent. Stop calling this a march, or rally, or a protest. Go there ready for war. We get our President or we die. NOTHING else will achieve this goal.”
...
Steven D’Antuono, the head of the FBI’s Washington Field Office...suggested there was not much the FBI or anyone else could do with the information, because they did not know who was making the statements online, and the threat wasn’t directed at any specific lawmaker or person. It was raw intelligence, and as such did not prompt officials to change their thinking or planning about the next day, according to people familiar with the matter.
Timeline: How law enforcement and government officials failed to head off the U.S. Capitol attack

...because violent mobs usually specifically identify their targets in advance.

Also:
41 minutes of fear: A video timeline from inside the Capitol siege
posted by kirkaracha at 5:22 PM on January 16, 2021 [13 favorites]


Since the day after the election, CNN has been No. 1 in the 25- to 54-year-old demographic that the cable news business is built on... Fox's audience has always skewed older, so Fox has always had total viewer bragging rights, even when CNN notched victories in younger demographics. But for the past nine straight days, CNN has also been No. 1 in the total viewer race.
...
This month to date, CNN has averaged 2.08 million viewers throughout the day; MSNBC has averaged 1.74 million; and Fox has averaged 1.41 million.
posted by nicoffeine at 5:42 PM on January 16, 2021 [27 favorites]


After Fox committed the heresy of acknowledging Trump's loss, a lot of their viewers started to switch to Newsmax and (shudder) OAN.
posted by PhineasGage at 5:54 PM on January 16, 2021 [2 favorites]


Thanks for those numbers, nicoffeine - I love numbers!

I'm curious what will happen with Fox "News" over the next ten years. I certainly don't expect them to stop being Fox, but between them being the first to call Arizona for Biden, Murdoch urging Trump to concede (in general, as reported in The Guardian way back on Nov. 7, and in the NY Post cover editorial on Dec 28 (link to Slate, not NYPost), and then having to walk back election fraud claims when threatened with a defamation suit from Smartmatic - it just looks like they'll have a hard job threading the needle between the Trump loyalists and Republicans who have (finally) had it with Trump.

Historian Heather Cox Richardson's outstanding Letters from an American newsletter describes how "The crisis is breaking the Republican Party in two". I think there's a lot of evidence for that, and I think the fracture will continue to grow, and I really wonder how that's going to play out. (I, of course, hope it plays out as a big shift toward Democrats, especially progressive Democrats, but I can't predict the future.)
posted by kristi at 6:00 PM on January 16, 2021 [1 favorite]


Would a Republican Party broken in two attract some establishment Democrats (and the people who vote for them) to the Romney-Bloomberg Republican Rump? Any chance of a three-party system in the USA, like you see in so many other democracies?
posted by clawsoon at 6:10 PM on January 16, 2021 [1 favorite]


Any chance of a three-party system in the USA, like you see in so many other democracies?

Yes, I think the chances are good... but without first-past-the-post reform and some form of proportional representation at the federal level, there's no chance at all it'll last for long.
posted by tclark at 6:12 PM on January 16, 2021 [14 favorites]


Yes, I think the chances are good... but without first-past-the-post reform and some form of proportional representation at the federal level, there's no chance at all it'll last for long.

The UK and Canada manage it without that, though.
posted by clawsoon at 6:15 PM on January 16, 2021


"After Fox committed the heresy of acknowledging Trump's loss, a lot of their viewers started to switch to Newsmax and (shudder) OAN."

I'm not sure I have a cogent thesis here but I have some thoughts that have been percolating in my brain lately. If this is a derail, feel free to delete. I'm just trying to process some of this.

I remember reading some time ago about how people who refused to believe that the Newtown shooting happened and started harassing grieving parents for being crisis actors. And part of it was that it was so awful that there were people who simply couldn't believe that something like that could possibly happen so therefore it didn't and those who say it did are lying.

How do you really address that kind of rejection of reality? That kind of disbelief in the real-world horrors?

But at the same time there are a lot of people that believe in this truly awful thing of, not just the existence of some kind of global child-trafficking ring, but that it also involves vampirism and satanic rituals to stay young and hold power. That, for instance, hollywood actors stay young-looking because they're consuming the blood of children and such. (I am, of course, not disputing the very real horrifying existence of child-trafficking but am talking about the qanon warped version of it).

And these seem to somehow involve a lot of the same believers. That at once, something very real and documented didn't happen but something arguably worse and without credible evidence did? I know that a lot of people are used to finding ways to reconcile conflicting thoughts in their brains (such as believing conflicting passages in the bible) but I can't quite get a handle on how this works. How do some love Trump but go on about Epstein and yet Trump's connections with Epstein don't bother them? Yes, I know that applying logic doesn't work but it really bothers me what they're willing to ignore and choose to believe.

Because ultimately, what I'm asking is, how do we even agree on a shared reality at this point? And if we can't agree on a shared reality, how do we move forward? Writing off the "other side" as delusional isn't helpful because this isn't a mental health issue at all but an issue with information and trust. And when there's so much distrust in the information available, where the hell do we go? Facts don't work because the trust is broken. Video evidence doesn't even work because arguments can be made that it's something else: actors, people infiltrating on behalf of a different agenda, deep-fakes, etc.

TL;DR How do we move forward as a community of people with those who don't even share the same reality we do?
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 6:18 PM on January 16, 2021 [30 favorites]


The UK and Canada manage it without that, though.

Parliamentary systems can sustain it because a coalition government is feasible. That's not how the US government is structured, and without the changes I describe -- or wholesale switching to a parliamentary system -- third parties are unsustainable, and will inevitably result in realignment and revert (perhaps after realignment) to 2 party dominance.
posted by tclark at 6:20 PM on January 16, 2021 [15 favorites]


I haven't seen this one yet in the threads:

National Guardsmen having their picture taken with Rosa Park's statue in the Capitol Rotunda.
posted by clawsoon at 6:25 PM on January 16, 2021 [45 favorites]


The UK and Canada manage it without that, though.

UK here. FPTP fucks over smaller parties beyond belief.

We have one Green MP, despite the support the party has across the nation. You also have the SNP holding 80% of Scottish Westminster seats on 46% of the vote.

It is not something we really manage well at all.
posted by MattWPBS at 6:27 PM on January 16, 2021 [14 favorites]


Because ultimately, what I'm asking is, how do we even agree on a shared reality at this point? And if we can't agree on a shared reality, how do we move forward?

I kind of wonder if these events say something about problems maintaining consensus reality being a problem for a certain kind of democracy, whatever the United States is, where the disruption of consensus reality has direct political consequences. (Anybody know if India, for example, is better, as an even larger multi-ethnic, multi-religious democracy?)

But once you account for white supremacy, Indigenous genocide, the horrific oppression and murders of trans people, etc. I'd think you might be able to find earlier non-democratic societies, where a large proportion of the population weren't even literate, that didn't actually have much of a shared reality but weren't much worse overall. So maybe that's one good thing—that the shared reality isn't necessarily “needed”, that we might at least be able to maintain, er, a status quo of baseline awfulness, with some of the awfulness shifted away from the more traditionally-marginalized people? If we can find a way to rig everything right?

Maybe we could shoot for partitioned or firewalled multiple realities, each fairly spacious, instead of the maelstrom-blizzard of shit through which everyone is trying to find their way by touch.
posted by XMLicious at 6:39 PM on January 16, 2021


(Anybody know if India, for example, is better, as an even larger multi-ethnic, multi-religious democracy?)

I've recently read comparisons of Modi to Trump, so I'm doubtful. Hindu nationalism seems to have some similarities with MAGA.
posted by clawsoon at 6:50 PM on January 16, 2021 [3 favorites]


Maybe we could shoot for partitioned or firewalled multiple realities, each fairly spacious, instead of the maelstrom-blizzard of shit through which everyone is trying to find their way by touch.

That sounds similar to the reasoning behind the creation and spread of the ethnic nation-state. I suspect that it would fail in the USA for the same reason that the post-WWI attempt to create ethno-states in Eastern Europe failed: Y'all are too mixed up together.
posted by clawsoon at 6:55 PM on January 16, 2021 [3 favorites]


India is not better. Just look up the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh if you want an intro.

...and don't even get me started on Modi.

(/me drags himself away from keyboard to avoid ranting)
posted by aramaic at 6:57 PM on January 16, 2021 [19 favorites]


Well this seems pointless, from yesterday's congressional record:
Friday, January 15, 2021

Mr. HARRIS. Madam Speaker, I regret to inform you that I was unable
to vote on January 13, 2021, due to an unavoidable conflict. Had I been
present, I would have voted NO on Roll Call No. 17.
That was the impeachment vote.
posted by ctmf at 7:06 PM on January 16, 2021 [5 favorites]


Which Rep said that? The doctor?

Edit: blargh, it says in the post. Reading comprehension fail on my part.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 7:08 PM on January 16, 2021


Up until the mid '60's the US had a consensus reality, the consensus being that this country is meant to be run by white Christian men. No other group had the power to challenge that consensus. When that started to change the old consensus first ignored, then mocked, then growled, then beat, then shot. Now the old consensus is so fragile that it fears losing its final shreds of legitimacy and is lashing out with all it's got.

It's not the batshit rightwing who are living in an alternate reality. It's we who are. We inhabit a reality different from their pre-'60's version. And our reality is on the verge of dominance. No wonder they're going nuts.
posted by mono blanco at 7:14 PM on January 16, 2021 [40 favorites]


That sounds similar to the reasoning behind the creation and spread of the ethnic nation-state. I suspect that it would fail in the USA for the same reason that the post-WWI attempt to create ethno-states in Eastern Europe failed: Y'all are too mixed up together.

Funny you should say this—I'm not familiar enough to evaluate it, but I was thinking of the pre-WWI Austro-Hungarian Empire; I understand that the korenizatsiya ethnic policy of the early Soviet Union was based on Austria-Hungary. (Designed by Stalin of all people, who ruthlessly and mercilessly dismantled it once he was in power anyways. Not the sentimental type, Stalin.)
posted by XMLicious at 7:14 PM on January 16, 2021 [1 favorite]


"It's not the batshit rightwing who are living in an alternate reality. It's we who are. We inhabit a reality different from their pre-'60's version. And our reality is on the verge of dominance. No wonder they're going nuts."

That's the thing, though. The issues I spoke about aren't solely right-wingers. There are a lot of leftists who believe qanon and other conspiracy theories as well. Who both fully support BLM and think the Clintons are running a child sex ring. I've met them. I even wrote an ask about one friend, in particular.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 7:21 PM on January 16, 2021 [9 favorites]


I can confirm that some acquaintances who might otherwise at least lean left on so many issues -- even some support BLM and who were *heavy* anti-Trump in 2016 -- got sucked into QAnon somehow and even voted for him this time. The child trafficking cabal thing in combination with the astounding amount of propaganda thrown at the Clintons over decades seems to be quite the one-two punch.

I've seen this in other ways. Tulsi stans who also love Bernie. That doesn't come from a vision of where the country should go, that comes from something like "The Democrats are The Man Too, You Know" with a dash of "I Know They're All Corrupt" and "I'm Above Sides."

We have some serious information, messaging, and consensus problems to solve.
posted by wildblueyonder at 7:35 PM on January 16, 2021 [10 favorites]


The child trafficking cabal thing in combination with the astounding amount of propaganda thrown at the Clintons over decades seems to be quite the one-two punch.

I wonder if Democrats would've picked up some of the conspiracy wing of the Republican Party if, say, Dennis Kucinich had won the Democratic nomination. Would we be talking today about how weird it is for white supremacists to support Medicare for All, or something equally genre-bending?
posted by clawsoon at 7:52 PM on January 16, 2021


New Details Cast Arrest Of Virginia Man At D.C. Checkpoint In Different Light
It was not clear why Beeler was trying to pass through the closed off area, but Beeler’s father, Paul Beeler, told the Times in an interview that his son was part of a security team working alongside the Capitol Police and the National Guard and that he must have left his personal gun in his car, adding that his son had recently been working as a security guard on Capitol grounds.

When asked if he believed his son supported a peaceful transition of power, the arrested man’s father reportedly said that was “the reason” his son was there.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:56 PM on January 16, 2021


It's really hard to know where to begin to help someone like this understand the utter incoherence of his views.
'I am not a terrorist': Retired Navy SEAL speaks after Capitol siege
The Navy veteran said he wanted lawmakers to be left "shaking in their shoes."

"I would like to express to you just a cry for clemency, as you understand that my life now has been absolutely turned upside-down," Newbold told ABC News.
The whole article is worth reading. Then come back here and weep with me.
posted by PhineasGage at 8:18 PM on January 16, 2021 [9 favorites]


Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but I'm not entirely convinced by the VA man stopped at the checkpoint. Philadelphia Inquirer has a bit more, including "I'm a country boy." https://www.inquirer.com/news/nation-world/capitol-riot-firearms-found-security-checkpoint-20210116.html
posted by sepviva at 8:25 PM on January 16, 2021 [4 favorites]


"There was destruction, breaching the Capitol, our building, our house. And, um, to get in you had to destroy doors and windows to get in," Newbold says in the video.

that's how you know a building is truly yours, when you can't get into it without breaking doors & windows
posted by taquito sunrise at 8:28 PM on January 16, 2021 [12 favorites]


That doesn't come from a vision of where the country should go, that comes from something like "The Democrats are The Man Too, You Know" with a dash of "I Know They're All Corrupt" and "I'm Above Sides."

THIS. The vitriol that some leftists have toward the Democratic Party stuns me too. I saw one Rose Twitter person reply with a picture of burning the Warnock-Ossoff GA runoff postcards and told us we were "wasting our time."

There's very much an implication of "we know better" or "we're in on the secret," and that Democrats have been brainwashed, as opposed to them. I don't know when or how it started, but I'd say a significant portion of Americans has been trained to hate Democrats. And there's a kind of nihilism from leftists that wants to burn it all down instead of working to improve it.
posted by ichomp at 8:33 PM on January 16, 2021 [38 favorites]


that's how you know a building is truly yours, when you can't get into it without breaking doors & windows

Perhaps tellingly, that same "people's building" sensibility does not appear to extend to police stations during BLM.
posted by rhizome at 8:49 PM on January 16, 2021 [15 favorites]


Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but I'm not entirely convinced by the VA man stopped at the checkpoint.

Thanks for that Inquirer article.

I tend to be skeptical too, but I could also plead his case pretty easily.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:51 PM on January 16, 2021




Because ultimately, what I'm asking is, how do we even agree on a shared reality at this point? And if we can't agree on a shared reality, how do we move forward?

I think this is a brilliant question. Which fantasies that we tell ourselves and each other are okay? Which aren't? Are they okay just because they make us feel better, or because they make our children feel better? Or because they further an ancillary goal of ours?

And how should we shape our laws to make sure that only the okay fantasies are allowed to have a foothold in our public life and policies? I'm from northern New Jersey and I grew up learning from my local, state, and national politicians that Judeo-Christian values should be leaned upon for governance.

I wonder if a stricter separation between state and religion might help.
posted by el gran combo at 8:59 PM on January 16, 2021 [8 favorites]


The vitriol that some leftists have toward the Democratic Party stuns me too.

Many of them perceive that on many levels, that vitriol is returned in kind.

I am writing "I will not relitigate the 2020 primary nor encourage others to do so" on the blackboard 100 times even as I type this, believe me. That is not my intent. We have who we have now, and we play the hand we're dealt.

And there's a kind of nihilism from leftists that wants to burn it all down instead of working to improve it.

Well, yes, that _is_ the major point of the exercise. Left-of-centers have a fundamental disconnect between those seeing a need for radical, country-altering fundamental changes to economic, legal and regulatory fundamentals (without necessarily having any viable path to achieving them) and those seeking to band-aid and redirect the current systems somewhat (without necessarily having any viable path to accomplishing significant improvement).

Which is hardly unique; the Trumpoids are a "tear down the Deep State in its entirety" movement confounding the Paul Ryan types, who would just like everyone to shut up and focus on making rich people richer, thank you.
posted by delfin at 9:09 PM on January 16, 2021 [6 favorites]


"Statement On President Trump’s Impeachment Defense Team:

"President Trump has not yet made a determination as to which lawyer or law firm will represent him for the disgraceful attack on our Constitution and democracy, known as the “impeachment hoax.” We will keep you informed." -- Hogan Gidley, 12:01 AM · Jan 17, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

I guess Rudy said no?
posted by valkane at 9:23 PM on January 16, 2021 [2 favorites]


UK here. FPTP fucks over smaller parties beyond belief.

Speaking as a Canadian - yes, exactly, plus the tendency of the right to unite behind a single party and the tendency of the left to splinter means meaningful left-leaning government is nearly impossible.
posted by mightygodking at 9:24 PM on January 16, 2021 [11 favorites]


I guess Rudy said no?

Could be Rudy said "Cash up front."
posted by tclark at 9:26 PM on January 16, 2021 [11 favorites]


I guess Rudy said no?

Dershowitz did.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:27 PM on January 16, 2021 [2 favorites]


Hoax.

Hoax.

HOAX.

What does it even MEAN to say the impeachment is a hoax!?!
posted by meese at 9:29 PM on January 16, 2021 [21 favorites]


Somewhere, Lin Wood is staring at his phone, demanding that the Almighty cause it to ring and not with "F B I" on the Caller ID this time.
posted by delfin at 9:30 PM on January 16, 2021 [4 favorites]


What does it even MEAN to say the impeachment is a hoax!?!

It's a lie.
posted by valkane at 9:32 PM on January 16, 2021


"What does it even MEAN to say the impeachment is a hoax!?!"

When you're past your prime but you've still got fans but you know they only want to hear the old hits so you play them because at least you'll get the applause you crave. No one wants to hear your new songs.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 9:37 PM on January 16, 2021 [26 favorites]


Despite Parler backlash, Facebook played huge role in fueling Capitol riot, watchdogs say
"If you took Parler out of the equation, you would still almost certainly have what happened at the Capitol," he told Salon. "If you took Facebook out of the equation before that, you would not. To me, when Apple and Google sent their letter to Parler, I was a little bit confused why Facebook didn't get one." ...

At least two dozen Republican officials and organizations in at least a dozen states used the social network to plan bus trips to the rally that preceded the riot, according to a Media Matters analysis. Media Matters also identified at least 70 active Facebook groups related to "Stop the Steal," against which the platform could have acted long before the riot.

Days after the siege, Facebook's algorithm was still suggesting events hosted by some of the same groups that organized the Stop the Steal rally...

Facebook's algorithm has also placed ads for body armor, gun holsters and other military equipment next to content promoting election misinformation and the Capitol riot, according to BuzzFeed News.
posted by clawsoon at 9:41 PM on January 16, 2021 [49 favorites]


> Facebook's algorithm has also placed ads for body armor, gun holsters and other military equipment next to content promoting election misinformation and the Capitol riot

Move Fast, Break Democracy
posted by glonous keming at 9:57 PM on January 16, 2021 [17 favorites]




UK here. FPTP fucks over smaller parties beyond belief.

Australia here. We have a preferential voting system (aka instant run-off or similar).

It certainly helps limit the shitfuckery of minority rule, and I don't want to ditch it. But it is no panacea either. What happens is that smaller front parties or 'independent' candidates get set up or manipulated to siphon off votes from your primary opponent and redirect them to you via preferences. We are not in a good place of late with governance.

Of course the system and rules matter, and they can always be improved, and should be. But the hard lesson from all this is that there is no formal electoral or government system that can do the job on its own. Informal norms and good faith are also a critical component of good governance.

McConnell's savage shitfuckery in the USA over the last decade was done strictly by the book. He broke no rules (AFAIK), he just dropped a giant turd all over norms and good faith.

In one sense the history of governance is basically figuring out how to limit the damage done by bad faith actors.
posted by Pouteria at 10:10 PM on January 16, 2021 [27 favorites]


"Time to face the harsh reality, socialist Bernie Sanders will become the chairman of the Sen Budget Committee. He has vowed to use his position to enact his progressive agenda on healthcare, climate, infrastructure spending, & cutting defense spending." -- Nikki Haley

It's like a dream come true.
posted by valkane at 10:12 PM on January 16, 2021 [67 favorites]


What does it even MEAN to say the impeachment is a hoax!?!

what has anything the man has said since at least (I was going to say 2015 but EVER is probably more apt) meant?
posted by philip-random at 10:17 PM on January 16, 2021 [4 favorites]


That’s nice, Nikki. Do you believe the election was stolen?

Because nothing you say about policy or how “presidential” you’re trying to position yourself as right now matters until we’re clear on that.
posted by Mchelly at 10:18 PM on January 16, 2021 [6 favorites]


"Knowing that his successor opposes the death penalty, Donald Trump has rushed to execute as many people as possible before the transition. He has executed more individuals in weeks than had been federally executed in more than 60 years. Absolutely shameful. End the death penalty." -- Justin Amash
posted by valkane at 10:31 PM on January 16, 2021 [46 favorites]


It's like a dream come true.

Yeah, I mean oh my god healthcare, climate, and infrastructure. At least when these people beat the they want to outlaw churches and take your guns drum I understand why this is a bad thing you don't want someone doing to you.

I guess this is why they usually don't run on actual policies other than tax cuts . . .
posted by mark k at 10:44 PM on January 16, 2021 [4 favorites]


He has executed more individuals in weeks than had been federally executed in more than 60 years. Absolutely shameful. End the death penalty."

except maybe one last ... ... ...

nah. just let him slowly diminish in Mar-A-Lago.
posted by philip-random at 10:51 PM on January 16, 2021


nah. just let him slowly diminish in Mar-A-Lago.

Then tear it down, like they did with Spandau after Hess expired.

No monuments, no shrines.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:56 PM on January 16, 2021 [10 favorites]


The neighbors still don't want him living there more than 3 weeks a year, he's going to need to find a new place to squat
posted by mbo at 10:59 PM on January 16, 2021 [3 favorites]


“All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.” — Hitler
posted by valkane at 10:59 PM on January 16, 2021 [6 favorites]


The neighbors still don't want him living there more than 3 weeks a year, he's going to need to find a new place to squat

Those neighbors haven't been paying attention to Trump's MO. He'll move in, make them sue him, drag it out several years (while still doing the thing), target them with all kinds of harassment from his social media MAGA army, then not pay his bills and need to be sued again even when he's finally forced to leave. He makes even a win not worth the effort and expense.
posted by ctmf at 11:17 PM on January 16, 2021 [10 favorites]


It's not just that the neighbors don't want him there:
Trump signed an agreement in 1993 with the local government of Palm Beach that would allow him to turn the private residence into a business so long as he followed a set of rules, including a limitation on how many days of the year Trump can live at Mar-a-Lago.

The agreement says that Trump cannot live at the club for more than three nonconsecutive weeks in a year.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:18 PM on January 16, 2021 [10 favorites]


So where else could Trump actually live? Back to Trump Tower? His mansion in Bedford? Or does he need to skedaddle out of New York State like Jr?
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 11:35 PM on January 16, 2021 [1 favorite]


Leavenworth? Twelveworth?
posted by MrVisible at 11:49 PM on January 16, 2021 [12 favorites]


North Korea
posted by philip-random at 11:50 PM on January 16, 2021 [1 favorite]


I thought this thread was supposed to be about Biden? And his plan? Anyways. I posted another FPP about the storming of the Capitol. I try to play by the rules.

Also, I just have to say, the idea that we have to have a happy tab on top is like the worst understanding of how the world works ever.
posted by valkane at 11:52 PM on January 16, 2021 [3 favorites]


Truthfully, I'd gotten confused by how the threads were going and this one seemed more or less to be the default politics thread of the day and I think the same confusion happened to many others as well. A lot of stuff ended up here that should probably have gone to that thread, instead. I think I'm not the only one who got confused as to which thread was which and just ended up staying in one because it's easier to keep track of the conversation that way. It sucks that it ended up shortchanging your thread and ultimately made this one different from what it was originally intended to be.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 12:03 AM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


From an article linked in an earlier response:
And Don Jr. and his girlfriend Kimberly Guilfoyle are planning to move to Florida, according to the New York Post.

“There is no way they can stay in New York. They’d be tortured in the streets,” a source close to the family told the New York Post.
I know that none of us here have forgotten this, exactly, but there's so much going on at this point that it's hard to appreciate how horrible these people are on every level.

But when reading the quote above, which cynically attempts to generate sympathy for some of the most loathsome people on the planet by casting them as helpless victims, do try to keep in mind how much cruelty and contempt the Trumps have shown towards refugees who actually would be killed if they returned to the homes they fled.
posted by Nerd of the North at 12:06 AM on January 17, 2021 [29 favorites]


Feeling Betrayed, Far-Right Extremists Have A New Message For Trump: ‘Get Out Of Our Way’

"In online havens for MAGA extremists, including Gab, CloutHub, MeWe, Telegram and far-right message boards such as 8kun, the tone toward Trump is shifting. HuffPost reviewed thousands of messages across these platforms and found that a growing minority of the president’s once-devout backers are now denouncing him and rejecting his recent pleas for peace. Some have called for his arrest or execution, labeling him a “traitor” and a “coward.” Alarmingly, many of those who are irate about Biden’s supposed electoral theft are still plotting to forcibly prevent him from taking office — with or without Trump’s help. "
posted by gtrwolf at 12:10 AM on January 17, 2021 [11 favorites]


Facebook's algorithm has also placed ads for body armor, gun holsters and other military equipment next to content promoting election misinformation and the Capitol riot, according to BuzzFeed News.

When the BLM protests picked up nationwide i was getting facebook ads to purchase bearcats. Why would a private citizen even need a bearcat? Is that someones idea of a midlife crusis convertible or retirement boat?

I think trumpworld is leaving ny state to try to dodge taxes and criminal charges. Lots of wealthy russians in the miami area and its easier to make a quick getaway on somebodys yacht.
posted by WeekendJen at 12:22 AM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


Truthfully, I'd gotten confused by how the threads were going and this one seemed more or less to be the default politics thread of the day and I think the same confusion happened to many others as well. A lot of stuff ended up here that should probably have gone to that thread, instead. I think I'm not the only one who got confused as to which thread was which and just ended up staying in one because it's easier to keep track of the conversation that way. It sucks that it ended up shortchanging your thread and ultimately made this one different from what it was originally intended to be.

To be fair, this thread was directly linked by (and thus implied to be a continuation of) the last political megathread so any confusion is understandable.

(er, this is supposed to be a continuation of the ongoing political megathread, right?)
posted by gtrwolf at 12:24 AM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


this is supposed to be a continuation of the ongoing political megathread, right?

Yes. Its been addressed a few times now. The main text of the post makes it clear. The post title was just supposed to bring a little optimism to proceedings.

Countdown to the next "isn't this supposed to be just about Biden's agenda?" post begins now.
posted by deeker at 3:58 AM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


Mod note: One deleted; a new front page post about India's political situation would be fine, but doesn't really fit in here. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:17 AM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


This is hardly an original observation, but: it's becoming inescapable that social media, as it currently exists, is fundamentally incompatible with liberal democracy. It's too easily weaponized by the worst actors.

We've inherited a 20th-century philosophy of what "freedom of speech" means (or should mean), the proper role of the media, where (or whether) to draw the line between "publishers" and "platforms", and so on.

That philosophy might have made sense when print and broadcast media ruled the day. But that era is gone – and the new reality is so different that we need to fundamentally rethink our answers to those questions, from first principles.

It's gonna be messy, and uncomfortable, and I sure as hell don't have any clear answers to offer. But as the saying goes, disinformation travels halfway around the world before the truth has even put on its pants. And it turns out that handing a megaphone to every would-be purveyor of disinformation is destroying civilization.

I'm not (necessarily) proposing any particular kind of censorship. I'm not proposing anything in particular, because I have no idea what the solution is. But it's hard to imagine how truth and reason can ever have a fighting chance, so long as it's trivially easy for liars and reactionaries to flood the zone with shit.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:28 AM on January 17, 2021 [32 favorites]


I thought this thread was supposed to be about Biden? And his plan? Anyways. I posted another FPP about the storming of the Capitol. I try to play by the rules.

Also, I just have to say, the idea that we have to have a happy tab on top is like the worst understanding of how the world works ever.


How did you get that impression Valkane?

I mean, was it the references to 'prior megathread', and the links to stories around the storming of the Capitol in the post, or the comments making it clear it was a continuation of the megathread that made you think it was purely about Biden's plan? If you want to hive stuff off, just say that.

Also, I have to say that you appear to have the worst understanding of how framing affects people and discussions. We aren't exempt from the typical left leaning tendency to look for the worst in any situation, to find something to complain about. To me, consciously challenging that bias is useful in both personal and communal life. Hence the title, because 'a bit of hope is better to see each time at the top of the thread/tab than more horror', rather than 'we have to have a happy tab'.
posted by MattWPBS at 4:36 AM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Mod note: *Cough* Excuse me, I don't know what a happy tab is or even what this squabble is supposed to be about, but can I ask y'all to please lay off the bickering and just participate in the thread with news, info and updates that are pertinent to the post? Please and thank you.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:48 AM on January 17, 2021 [33 favorites]


This is hardly an original observation, but: it's becoming inescapable that social media, as it currently exists, is fundamentally incompatible with liberal democracy. It's too easily weaponized by the worst actors.

The same was true of the printing press after its invention. It took a few neighbour-massacres-neighbour religious wars to get the political will in the population at large to do something about it. Hopefully we can figure something out before we get to that point.
posted by clawsoon at 5:00 AM on January 17, 2021 [12 favorites]


Excellent interview with poster-child for "the sinner that repenteth" Mike Lofgren who previously described his old party as a death cult and spent time and energy raising alarms:

" I could see this before almost anybody else could. I first wrote about their apocalyptic nature in 2011. Most people looked at me like I was some sort of exotic zoo specimen. Almost no one else was saying this at the time."

(I think he means in "the mainstream" here, btw)

And, as an insider well-versed in Berlin and Popper, concluded that:

"the Republican Party has violent tendencies and a nihilistic outlook — rejection of science, rejection of civil rights, rejection of democracy, rejection of anything that does not allow them to maintain power. They will bring down the country to keep in power.

"I observed this over the years from people who are "true-blue constitutional conservatives, patriots who bleed red, white and blue." You get three or four beers in them, and they are singing the praises of Adolf Hitler. It sounds like I am exaggerating, but I've seen it happen."

Covers history (the Civil War and Weimar Germany) and concludes:

"Those examples show you what works, and what encourages people in cases of massive insurrection. Being overly lenient only encourages them."

Offers a way forward:

"The approach has to be, first, governmental, with laws and the application of those laws, but also socially, by boycotting and putting pressures on corporations. It is also individual, each person dealing with other individuals. I say this because I've personally confronted the issue. It is important to tell relatives and friends in no uncertain terms, "You can stop invoking Jesus. I sure as hell don't want to hear about Black Lives Matter. You are not a good citizen or a patriot if you continue to vote for these Republicans. I might have to keep your grandkids away from you unless you repent of this. I don't want their young minds poisoned by hatred and violence." "

And more. Well worth your time to read.
posted by deeker at 5:27 AM on January 17, 2021 [23 favorites]


Not to abuse the edit window, his concluding thoughts on the Democrats seem apposite to some discussion here, too:

"Democrats seem to think that once they elect a Democratic president, they can all go back to sleep. We saw the consequences of that complacency in 1994. We saw it in 2010. During the first term of a Democratic president, you typically get landslides in the midterm against the sitting president. I fear that people could become complacent again. Then, there are many on the progressive left who think that their own gullibility is worldly-wise cynicism. They'll say: "Oh, it's just death by poison or death by hanging — the two parties are really the same." Well, they're not. They're making the same mistake as the far left in Weimar Germany, their delusion that the Social Democrats were the same as the Nazis. Don't kid yourself. Even a decadent status quo is better than living in a combination of Kim Jong-un's North Korea and anarchic Somalia.

...

Whatever your criticism of the Democrats, they are for sanity. They are for the rule of law. You are better advised to vote for them than for fascists."
posted by deeker at 5:31 AM on January 17, 2021 [26 favorites]


Reposting this from the end of the previous thread:

More (and hopefully final) details about the Man Arrested at U.S. Capitol with ‘Unauthorized Inauguration Credential’ Held Active Security License, Said He Was Employed to Guard Media Equipment, Law & Crime, Aaron Keller, 1/16/2021. Summary:
• Wesley Allen Beeler, 31, of Front Royal, Virginia.
• He showed a non-government issued credential [not falsified] at a checkpoint, but he wasn’t on the authorized inaugural list.
• His Ford F-150 pickup had pro-gun stickers “Assault Life” and “If they come for your guns Give ‘Em your bullets first.”.
• A search of his truck found a Glock 17 9mm handgun (plainly visible in the truck) with a round in its chamber, high-capacity magazine, 509 rounds of 9mm ammunition, and 21 shotgun shells.
• Beeler was arrested on three gun charges and held for processing.
As it turns out, he was a private security guard protecting media equipment who had taken a wrong turn in downtown Washington. A judge released Beeler on personal recognizance and ordered him to stay away from D.C..

Now is not a good time to get lost in Washington.
posted by cenoxo at 5:41 AM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


"Time to face the harsh reality, socialist Bernie Sanders will become the chairman of the Sen Budget Committee. He has vowed to use his position to enact his progressive agenda on healthcare, climate, infrastructure spending, & cutting defense spending."

Someone very happy about this has written a song: Bernie's The Chairman of the Budget Committee | Song A Day #4391
posted by clawsoon at 5:43 AM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


We've inherited a 20th-century philosophy of what "freedom of speech" means (or should mean), the proper role of the media, where (or whether) to draw the line between "publishers" and "platforms", and so on.

That philosophy might have made sense when print and broadcast media ruled the day. But that era is gone – and the new reality is so different that we need to fundamentally rethink our answers to those questions, from first principles.


With regards to broadcasting, there was a limit to available broadcast frequencies, so there developed a philosophy and expectation that the companies that had a license to broadcast had an obligation to the public (Fairness Doctrine).

That has long since been abandoned, and (afaik) was never applied to cable since it was not thought broadcast (over the air, at least). Even though 500 cable channels is significantly more than 3 broadcast networks (ABC, CBS, NBC), there cannot be many people/organizations with the resources to create a media channel.

With the internet all sorts of people/organizations can reach a mass audience (although an internet 'mass audience' is nowhere as large as a television network's reach at their peak).

The current limited resource is not broadcast frequencies, but the public's attention. There should be a consideration of the quality of the communication that makes demands, and how many people are affected (scam robocalls should be illegal and those laws should be as rigorously enforced as the FCC would go after illegal broadcasts, because the value is negative and the demand on attention is high).

You don't want a system where someone gets bankrupted because their cat video unexpectedly went viral, or charge people who are participating in a hobbyist's blog, but if a lobbying group is pushing propaganda on Facebook they should pay a price for everyone who gets their message, maybe multiplied by some factor if the communique is malicious or fraudulent.

Of course, I have no idea how to get there...
posted by rochrobbb at 6:15 AM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


People are so intent on Just World Theory.^ I had a big fight with some others in my friends circle over whether the Putsch was insignificant and beneath notice or not, with lots of tempers lost, and shouting at the top of our lungs, which permanently damaged some long-time relationships.

So I discussed it with another, normally very rock-solidly reasonable friend I hadn't spoken to since the Putsch who knew everyone but wasn't present, who despite, or perhaps because of, a penchant for UFO stuff, usually takes a very realistic perspective on everything else. He just kept both-sidesing it and repeating things like “tensions are high” and “people are on-edge”.

But it's not like retailers came out with new, exceptionally scary and high-quality, The Nightmare Before Christmas^ decorations, and so because everyone's left their Christmas decorations up that's the reason for tenseness and crankiness stalking the land. People are tense because their animal fight-or-flight instincts are being triggered by perceiving actual dangers.

Everyone was tense when Trump was inaugurated too, because it was pretty obviously a bad idea to give nuclear weapons and access to all above-top-secret classified information and the rest to someone who had spent two years (and more) talking about how much he loved every dictator on the block, including Saddam Hussein, and who was pretty obviously going to try to become President for Life and overthrow the government (and who immediately started “joking” about doing so). In a sense we're lucky that he did so with the last-minute Putsch afterthought, only after he lost by electoral means and because he's lazy and probably believed his own bullshit that he couldn't lose, rather than by starting a nuclear war and then taking advantage of the chaos and mourning and fear. (And let's be serious, he himself is too cowardly to take that route, but someone else may come along.)
posted by XMLicious at 6:18 AM on January 17, 2021 [10 favorites]


So we're not allowed to post any Capital insurrection news here now? I'm confused.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:18 AM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


Report: Boebert’s Comms Director Is Resigning After Capitol Attack, TPM, Zoe Richards, January 16, 2021:
The communications director for Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-CO) [*] is resigning after less than two weeks in the role, Axios reported on Saturday.

Ben Goldey reportedly tied his decision to step down from the post to last week’s insurrection at the U.S. Capitol. His boss, Boebert, and other Republican lawmakers have been sharply criticized for fueling the attacks by objecting to the reaffirmation of President-elect Joe Biden’s electoral victory.

“Following the events of January 6th, I’ve decided to part ways with the office. I wish her and the people of Colorado’s Third District the best,” Goldey, said in an apparent reference to Boebert in a statement to Axios. Goldey had previously served as press secretary at the Department of Interior and prior to that worked for Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY).
...
Goldey’s abrupt resignation comes as Boebert offered a “thousand apologies” to Rep. Sean Maloney (D-NY) who she accused of making comments that “implied” she had conspired in the Capitol riot....
*Previously on Metafilter.
posted by cenoxo at 6:19 AM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


With regards to broadcasting, there was a limit to available broadcast frequencies, so there developed a philosophy and expectation that the companies that had a license to broadcast had an obligation to the public (Fairness Doctrine).

Personally, I think the Fairness Doctrine is less important than media ownership. The rules the FCC places on how many radio and TV stations that one company can own in a given market have been steadily worn away. Fox, Sinclair, and Cumulus are dominant players in much of the country.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:31 AM on January 17, 2021 [15 favorites]


> "Statement On President Trump’s Impeachment Defense Team: 'President Trump has not yet made a determination as to which lawyer or law firm will represent him for the disgraceful attack on our Constitution and democracy, known as the “impeachment hoax.” We will keep you informed.' -- Hogan Gidley, 12:01 AM · Jan 17, 2021·Twitter for iPhone -- I guess Rudy said no?

Rudy is facing disbarment hearings (alongside 22 other lawyers representing Trump during his time in office) and the loss of his license to practice (at the risk of committing a felony) so he might have to be elsewhere at the time.

But don't worry on Trump's behalf! I'm sure there are plenty of true believers among the single-lawyer practices working out of their garages and stripmall offices who are ready to step up, now that the major law firms unilaterally avoid him.
posted by at by at 6:50 AM on January 17, 2021 [9 favorites]


Maybe this belongs in AskMe, but what happens with all the people getting arrested? I assume they go to trial - but is it jury trial? Each one individually? If it’s a jury trial, where would all those jurors come from? Depending on where in the Capitol complex they start calling the trespassing actionable (the first barriers vs the surroundings vs the interior) this could turn into thousands of trials - how do you ensure accountability and justice with this many people, and so many more people in the population who agree with them?
posted by Mchelly at 7:07 AM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


Michelly, I would guess that many of the defendants would take plea deals. Apparently this accounts for 97% of Federal convictions.
posted by snofoam at 7:38 AM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


So we're not allowed to post any Capital insurrection news here now? I'm confused.

Nope, intended for both. Feel free.
posted by MattWPBS at 7:40 AM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


People are so intent on Just World Theory.^

The Nightmare Before Christmas^

(Hey, in line with the recent MetaTalk on overuse and nesting of "small" script and general accessibility, can you not do that odd "tiny superscript arrow as link" thing? That's not any kind of standard common usage here, if you really feel folks need a link to understand what the Just World Fallacy or the Nightmare Before Christmas are or whatever you can just make the phrase the link text like we do for everything else. Thank you.)
posted by soundguy99 at 7:42 AM on January 17, 2021 [28 favorites]


CNN: The acting secretary of defense is trying to install a Trump loyalist as the top lawyer at the National Security Agency, according to three sources familiar.

Christopher Miller, who just two days earlier said he couldn't wait to leave his job, ordered the head of the NSA to install Michael Ellis as general counsel by 6 p.m., Saturday, but NSA Director Gen. Paul Nakasone did not act by the given deadline, leaving it unclear what Miller or the White House would do.
posted by nicoffeine at 7:49 AM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


CheeseDigestsAll nails it above. Instead of spending literally billions of dollars on a few Senate races, it would be great if we all pooled our money (and/or persuaded a few Democratic billionaires) to buy local TV stations, which would change the course of American history not just for one election cycle but forever.
posted by PhineasGage at 8:01 AM on January 17, 2021 [24 favorites]


The acting secretary of defense is trying to install a Trump loyalist as the top lawyer at the National Security Agency, according to three sources familiar.

That Trump loyalist is a former staffer for Representative Devin Nunes. Seriously, how can someone who worked for Nunes get a security clearance?
posted by jointhedance at 8:04 AM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


Liberal democracy itself is at odds with liberal democracy. I'm half-kidding. What I mean is that the notion of a value-neutral State that straddles an infinitely pluriform congregation of pluralities, while favoring none of them, is somewhat of a fiction. E.g. I think it's pretty well established that when people like Locke or Adams or Madison rhapsodized about freedom and inviolable rights, what they meant was freedom and rights for people like themselves. Or when Robespierre talked about universal reason, liberty, and equality, what he meant is that the revolution justified repression and death for those who opposed him.

My point is not that these people were hypocrites or that their thinking was contradictory. Rather when some of the most esteemed & idealistic traditions in political philosophy have required and justified severe and prolonged repression to stamp out dissent, I think that tells us intense conflict is at times unavoidable. The high-minded Leibnizian ideal of "calculamus", in which all our differences are resolved through reasoned debate, can only be realized when you first get rid or disenfranchise those who might fuck you over.

I think for many folks in the West, the notion that they might get fucked over is frankly unthinkable — preposterous — and this comfortable security has borne a pleasantly non-committal view in which the ideals of democracy and freedom are sort of self-affirming and self-correcting, perhaps lurching forward and backward a little from time to time, but ultimately bending towards justice, like science bends towards truth. This downplays and obscures the fact that "the invisible hand of democracy" was always — always — sheathed in the steel glove of military and economic might. As the West's ability and willingness to aggressively recruit nations into the Western-oriented world order has dissipated bit by bit over a period of decades, that beneficent and conveniently naive view of political development has started to crack.

The Right has managed to capitalize on this crumbling consensus by emphasizing the decline of Western supremacy and calling for it to be restored, which however repulsive, outlines a political program in terms of interests, ideals and institutions while clearly framing a distinction between "us" and "them". The Left tends to either deny there is such a thing as Western decline, or in so far as it is recognized, views it broadly as an unalloyed good. But what will replace it or how it will come about or who will be part of what's next, all of that is left unclear. The modern mainstream Left, chastised by the legacies of Communism and Colonialism, is so afraid of ending up on the wrong side of anything that it eschews drawing lines altogether. Being on the right side is conceived of as a point of departure rather than as a destination arrived at through struggle.
posted by dmh at 8:27 AM on January 17, 2021 [25 favorites]


>This is hardly an original observation, but: it's becoming inescapable that social media, as it currently exists, is fundamentally incompatible with liberal democracy. It's too easily weaponized by the worst actors.

>The same was true of the printing press after its invention. It took a few neighbour-massacres-neighbour religious wars to get the political will in the population at large to do something about it. Hopefully we can figure something out before we get to that point.


And the thing they figured out was libel law to reduce the dissemination defamatory and dangerous print and advertising. Social media have a totally unique and unprecedented exemption to all of this through Section 230. The result is exactly as expected.
posted by JackFlash at 8:42 AM on January 17, 2021 [8 favorites]


Crazy conspiracy theories have plenty of room to grow without actionable defamation, libel, or any other other illegal communication. There isn't a "moderation" solution to the problem of lightning fast social media.
posted by PhineasGage at 8:55 AM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


Rudy is facing disbarment hearings (alongside 22 other lawyers representing Trump during his time in office) and the loss of his license to practice (at the risk of committing a felony) so he might have to be elsewhere at the time.

NYSBA is a voluntary bar assocation. So far as I know, he's not 'facing disbarment hearings' by the NY Courts, who are the licensing authority in NYS. A lawmaker has filed a complaint that the State may or may not act on.


NBC News: The group is a private professional association and revoking Giuliani's membership does not mean he would lose his law license.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:56 AM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


There isn't a "moderation" solution to the problem of lightning fast social media.

maybe we can finally start to take the insights/warnings of Prof McLuhan seriously enough to try to get a grasp on them.

The Medium Is The Massage (1967)

Seriously. It's less than an hour long. It's Sunday. What else do you need to do? We certainly need more people in the overall cultural conversation who understand that this mass media stuff has been causing ructions, ruptions, convolutions etc for more than half a century now. And even way back then, alarms had been raised.

[and it's fun]
posted by philip-random at 8:59 AM on January 17, 2021 [21 favorites]


There's a facebook group that I watch centering on a large hiking network in southern ontario. mostly photos and weather and routing advice. in the last couple of months it's gotten quite heated due to a doctrinal split regarding covid: does hiking count as something we need to limit due to the lockdown in ontario and requirements of social distancing? The opinions range from "don't hike anywhere you can't walk to from your own house" to "f**k you I have been walking for 50 years and it's a free country" plus a twist of "hey, if you're scaaaaared, by all means stay home". All of this is at least partially due, in my mind, to that particular group getting large enough in membership at around that time that the fringe asshole factor had gotten large enough to gain some signal among the noise, as so often eventually happens with internet fora.

I share all this because one of the things I see a lot of as a consequence is a lot of complaints that amount to "people are being jerks! why aren't the mods doing their jobs?!" when it seems to me the real question is "why are people being jerks?" This suddenly seems like a minor but relevant facet of the "how do we change the political dialogue?" discussion but I am still trying to tease it out in my own head.
posted by hearthpig at 9:13 AM on January 17, 2021 [14 favorites]


Interviews: National Guardsmen in U.S. capital for inauguration, Military.com, Lolita C. Baldor (Associated Press), 1/17/2021:
VIDEO — Interviews: National Guardsmen in U.S. capital for inauguration — National Guard troops in Washington in the wake of a deadly attack on the U.S. Capitol building on Jan. 6 talk about the experience of being mobilized to the city in the midst of potential unrest around the inauguration of President-Elect Joe Biden.

WASHINGTON — By the busload and planeload, National Guard troops were pouring into the nation’s capital on Saturday, as governors answered the urgent pleas of U.S. defense officials for more troops to help safeguard Washington even as they keep anxious eyes on possible violent protests in their own states.

Military leaders spent chunks of Thursday evening and Friday calling states in an unprecedented appeal for more National Guard troops to help lock down much of the city in the days before President-elect Joe Biden’s inauguration. In dribs and drabs, governors responded, some agreeing to send an extra dozen, 100 or even 1,000, while others said no.

The calls reflect fears that violent extremist groups are targeting the city in the wake of the deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6. The threats range from armed insurgents to possible attempts to plant explosive devices at so-called soft targets. But as Washington begins to resemble an armed camp, with more than 25,000 Guard due in the city by early next week, concerns about violence at state capitals has grown.
...
What began in early January as a routine deployment of about 350 members of the D.C. National Guard to help with expected protests exploded over the past two weeks into a vastly greater operation to protect the inauguration and the U.S. Capitol, and to shut down access to the city and many of its historical monuments.

As protesters stampeded their way into the Capitol on Jan. 6, only a bit more than 100 National Guard were scattered around the city, guarding checkpoints and Metro entrances. Hours later, five people were dead, the Capitol was in shambles and all 1,100 of D.C.’s Guard had been activated....
Let no insurrectionists doubt that the National Guard is deadly serious about defending the Capitol.
posted by cenoxo at 9:26 AM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


Maybe this belongs in AskMe, but what happens with all the people getting arrested? I assume they go to trial - but is it jury trial? Each one individually? If it’s a jury trial, where would all those jurors come from? Depending on where in the Capitol complex they start calling the trespassing actionable (the first barriers vs the surroundings vs the interior) this could turn into thousands of trials - how do you ensure accountability and justice with this many people, and so many more people in the population who agree with them?

They'll be arraigned individually, they'll probably be bailed, and they'll get their chance to either plead guilty, strike a plea deal, or go to trial. If there's a trial they can ask for a bench but it'll be jury by default. If they do decide to go to trial, they'll be tried in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. The jurors would come from DC itself, heavily democratic, and heavily black, the irony.

They will all be dealt with by the same system in the exact same way. In state court it's much easier to find an out through groupthink and jury nullification but these defendants are going to be in a venue that is completely hostile to both their philosophy and the overarching goal of the insurrection.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:32 AM on January 17, 2021 [14 favorites]


Maybe this belongs in AskMe, but what happens with all the people getting arrested? I assume they go to trial - but is it jury trial? Each one individually?

I linked this a few threads back --

Let's talk about how the FBI may be countering Trump supporters....

It's more generally about how the FBI etc will be doing their best/worst to neutralize the insurrectionist crowd, but a big part of that will be how they're going to deal with those that get identified as having been in the crowd, and arrested.

tldr: the goal will be less to lock'em all up, more to get them to cooperate with the investigation, name names, cut deals, ultimately get at the truly serious/dangerous/capable operators.
posted by philip-random at 9:42 AM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


There's a certain irony to the inauguration of a Democratic president (accompanied by the Democrats retaking the Senate) being fronted by thousands of National Guard. The militarism of the whole scene could be considered a victory for the normalization of the rightwing. Because when they do the same thing eventually, the overtones are going to be a hell of a lot scarier.
posted by kokaku at 9:51 AM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


"nothing is inevitable until it happens"
(some wise guy)
posted by philip-random at 9:57 AM on January 17, 2021


plus a twist of "hey, if you're scaaaaared, by all means stay home".

It's been fascinating to watch the libertarian anti-maskers recommend that others stay home. A libertarians mild mask discomfort seems to trump other people's ability to even go outside.
posted by srboisvert at 10:08 AM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


I’ll never be able to think about Libertarianism again without remembering the small town in New Hampshire where it had literally become unsafe to live because some libertarian idiots insist on their personal rights to feed bears from their back porch.
posted by darkstar at 10:27 AM on January 17, 2021 [28 favorites]


The name of God was everywhere during Wednesday’s insurrection against the American government.
White Christian Nationalism: The deep story behind the Capitol insurrection.
The Jan. 6 siege on the U.S. Capitol fits into a larger "Christian insurrection."
posted by adamvasco at 10:37 AM on January 17, 2021 [8 favorites]


The ancien, ancien, ancien, 𝚺ᷠancien régime could be making its move, maybe? I was just watching MSNBC on cable and was blitzed with ads for Catholicism, which I haven't seen there or on any other channel recently. I was recently suggesting to a friend with kids and shared Catholic heritage in the family that it might be beneficial to get more connected to the church community than just holiday stuff, and try to get the kids involved with religious extra-curricular activities if they were interested, since Catholic social networks have deep and literally ancient experience weathering and surviving things like the present circumstances.

At a glance it seems to be a real, doctrinally-normal Catholic organization: CatholicsComeHome.org, but maybe EMcG or others who are more wired in to theology and Catholicism than I can comment. (As opposed to a Russian cyber/propaganda/disinformation-warfare operation, or something.)

I was just thinking... Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman, at 75 and with an impaired immune system as a cancer survivor, being infected with COVID by her traitorous Quisling scumbag shoe-scraping Republican colleagues refusing to wear masks, is not simply normal Freedumb! anti-masker disregard for rationality, or even anti-masker queen bee or drone behavior.

Under long-standing Continuity of Operations COOP laws and procedures, officers of the United States and their subordinates are responsible for keeping each other alive, particularly in the event of emergencies such as a nuclear war or insurrection. I would think that especially, not wearing a mask in the presence of an elderly person who is in the Presidential order of succession—including Republicans in the presence of other Republicans, even if their spineless leaders refuse to publicly object—would be a huge no-no.

So despite the fact that we can't realistically expect many members of Congress to be expelled for Fourteenth Amendment Constitutional insurrection-abetting reasons I wonder if, like the Law and Order President's nightmare historical scenario of Al Capone being taken down for tax fraud, COOP violations could do the trick, and if we raise a ruckus we might see some Samuel L. Jackson strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy My brothers (quote source: video clip with audio containing gunfire, EXTREME CONTENT WARNING for on-camera torture and murder, racist and sexist and sexual language... blasphemy... it's a twentieth-century Tarantino film) actual action once members of Congress realize there's less resistance, and less courage and political risk needed, to do something about bodily risk to their own persons.

I'm going to try, at least... firing up my letter-writing templates and loading my congresscritters' web sites...

See also the television documentary series released last month about American federal continuity of government planning since the Cold War, its repeated ineffectiveness during actual emergencies, and related topics (US-cable-provider-locked unfortunately, cw: clips of 9/11 attacks)

> I'm sure there are plenty of true believers among the single-lawyer practices working out of their garages and stripmall offices who are ready to step up...

Obligatory quote: You don't need a criminal lawyer, you need a criminal lawyer.

> ...can you not do that odd "tiny superscript arrow as link" thing? That's not any kind of standard common usage here...

I have no problem conforming to what everyone else is doing on that count and making even my more pedestrian links more obtrusive, as that will save me some cutting and pasting. However I'll note that it was a thing here to use a caret for Wikipedia links, starting around this FPP I believe, and that was part of why I was doing it. I learned it by watching you, Metafilter!

But that was a thousand Scaramuccis ago. More elegant use of punctuation, for a more civilized age.
posted by XMLicious at 10:44 AM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


"At a glance it seems to be a real, doctrinally-normal Catholic organization: CatholicsComeHome.org, but maybe EMcG or others who are more wired in to theology and Catholicism than I can comment. "

Tom Peterson is a Catholic who really, desperately wants to be an evangelical megachurch preacher and be famous and rich for being charismatic and Christian, but without all the bother of the priesthood where you have to do things like "serve people" and "not have sex" and "take orders from superiors" and "get a master's degree." He does a looooot of fundraising and pays himself well, and basically all he does is raise money from Catholics so he can run advertisements and create websites, and raise more money. It's kind-of notable that he appears to be based in Georgia and his website has no connections to the local diocese, no imprimature from the bishop, no local anything, which says to me he's sketchy and can't get the local diocese to recognize him.

Doctrinally the website's mostly fine, although he's chosen some very evangelical Protestant emphases, I assume for their marketing appeal. But his whole "thing" is sketchy AF. But no, it's just regular normal grifter trying to make money off religion sketchy, not Russian disinformation sketchy. I mean, just read google reviews of local parishes until you find one near you that has an active social justice ministry. You don't need Sketchy McSketcherson to "connect" you to the parish that's doubtless within ten miles of your house.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:00 AM on January 17, 2021 [12 favorites]


Aww, that's too bad. I was starting to feel a little atheist-who-hopes-the-Church-will-save-us.
posted by XMLicious at 11:03 AM on January 17, 2021


What do folks make of the relative quiet at state capitols today (knock on wood)? I know that right-wing chatter is warning people away because they're an "FBI setup" or whatever. Maybe the bungled attempt on the 6th, the aggressive federal response, and the widespread condemnation has dampened some of their enthusiasm for sedition?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 11:13 AM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Maybe the bungled attempt on the 6th, the aggressive federal response, and the widespread condemnation has dampened some of their enthusiasm for sedition?

The second that actual repercussions were on the table for their behavior, they turned tail and proved how cowardly they've been from the get-go.

Strong men don't need to rant about how strong they are or show it off. They were always cosplayers.

"I'm willing to give my life for this movement" from them means "I'm willing to give it all as long as I win and I get the best results for me."
posted by deadaluspark at 11:15 AM on January 17, 2021 [17 favorites]


What do folks make of the relative quiet at state capitols today (knock on wood)?

Arieh Kovler: QAnon spaces are pushing the same messages. They interpreted Trump's last video as a message to stay away because they think the military will be carrying out its coup and they'd only get in the way
posted by delfin at 11:19 AM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


I think the soft-hands reception the radical right mob received at the Michigan state house a few months ago emboldened a lot of these folks. But now that they have seen the response to the DC riot on Jan 6...
posted by PhineasGage at 11:20 AM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


Maybe the bungled attempt on the 6th, the aggressive federal response, and the widespread condemnation has dampened some of their enthusiasm for sedition?

I'm seeing a lot of "stay home (wink wink)" type posts, I guess trying to be smartasses outwitting the FBI. "Definitely do not shoot Joe Biden, if you know what I mean, ha ha". Trouble is, these geniuses are not know for subtlety, and each time I see something like that, I also see a bunch of replies not getting the joke, "why would I stay home? Are you telling us to give up our rights to protest?????" [head slap]

Also some "don't show up to own the libs" stuff because it will make the left look foolish to have over-reacted to nothing.
posted by ctmf at 11:21 AM on January 17, 2021 [8 favorites]


would be great if we all pooled our money (and/or persuaded a few Democratic billionaires) to buy local TV stations

Buying local (or regional) TV stations wouldn't fix anything - someone needs to run them to make that work. And running a TV station isn't as simple as getting someone elected and convincing them to vote for the right things.

Needs a staff of, at a minimum, maybe a dozen, more likely several dozen. Need a diverse range of skills: on-air personalities, admin staff, tech crew, researchers & in-the-field reporters. These days, you'd need 24/7 programming. Need money - that's either advertisers, donors, or subscribers; advertisers come with all those weird corporate ties. Donors means, at the very least, not pissing off the donors... it's hard to rant about The Evils Of Billionaires when 2/3 of your funding comes from billionaires.

"Make your own news station" is Means.TV's plan. $10/month. Plenty of people will pay $120/year to get accurate news, right? Just need 260 subscribers for every full-time $15/hour salary on staff.

"Buy/create local tv stations" isn't a bad idea, but it's complicated, not a simple "just do this instead of that" fix.
----
a lot of complaints that amount to "people are being jerks! why aren't the mods doing their jobs?!" when it seems to me the real question is "why are people being jerks?"

We see this in a lot of domestic abuse cases: People ask "Why didn't she leave?" instead of "Why did he hit her?"

"Why are they aggressive assholes?" is taken a meaningless question, as if some people are just born that way, and no society could possibly discourage or control that behavior.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:22 AM on January 17, 2021 [32 favorites]


@ErisLordFreedom

I worked in local television for a long time. Thank you for explaining this so I didn't have to. It's just not that simple.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:26 AM on January 17, 2021 [11 favorites]


What do folks make of the relative quiet at state capitols today (knock on wood)?

Boston police announced today they've shut the roads surrounding the Massachusetts State House (which, unlike many state capitols, is not in the middle of some large expanse, but is across narrow streets from residential and office buildings on three sides, and Boston Common on the fourth). "We will advise when they reopen."
posted by adamg at 11:29 AM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


It's been fascinating to watch the libertarian anti-maskers recommend that others stay home.

What's that favourite saying of libertarians? "Your liberty to swing your germs ends just where my nose begins"? I may have gotten a word or two wrong in there, but I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be the core libertarian idea.
posted by clawsoon at 11:33 AM on January 17, 2021 [15 favorites]


What's that favourite saying of libertarians? "Your liberty to swing your germs ends just where my nose begins"?

The majority of self-described "libertarians" mostly care about two things: not paying taxes, and having a philosophical justification for being a monstrously selfish asshole.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:38 AM on January 17, 2021 [55 favorites]


The Libertarian ethos is "I don't care about other people and you can't make me."
posted by wabbittwax at 11:41 AM on January 17, 2021 [29 favorites]


I was mostly just making a joke by replacing "fists" with "germs". Not as funny as I thought, I guess.
posted by clawsoon at 11:44 AM on January 17, 2021 [12 favorites]


clawsoon, it make me chuckle at least.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:45 AM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


Buying local (or regional) TV stations wouldn't fix anything - someone needs to run them to make that work. And running a TV station isn't as simple as getting someone elected and convincing them to vote for the right things.

Needs a staff of, at a minimum, maybe a dozen, more likely several dozen. Need a diverse range of skills: on-air personalities, admin staff, tech crew, researchers & in-the-field reporters. These days, you'd need 24/7 programming. Need money - that's either advertisers, donors, or subscribers; advertisers come with all those weird corporate ties. Donors means, at the very least, not pissing off the donors... it's hard to rant about The Evils Of Billionaires when 2/3 of your funding comes from billionaires.


Absolutely yes to the money side of the equation. Local stations and especially their newsrooms are not always - or even often? - profitable things unless you have a large portfolio of them. And that's if your station is number one in the market! Runners up get scraps. The sales initiatives coming down from the corporate level at these big companies are chaotic, ramshackle things just wildly flailing to try to turn local ad sales that have run on a personal touch between sales rep and client for decades into one-size-fits-all half-assed ad agencies/social media marketing companies that are just a mess on every level. Vicious, constant carriage fee negotiations with cable and satellite providers are a key portion of income as local ad sales continue to suck more and more all the time.

But as for the staff on the ground, the existing staff almost always stays when the station changes hands. You might swap out the GM, the News Director, some editors and maybe some anchors if they're actively working against the values you want to set for your news product but they'll be given a fair chance. In most markets those folks go along whichever way the breeze is blowing. At the station I worked at we had a News Director who had moral qualms about the new expectations under Sinclair after they bought us out and so he chose to leave after getting nowhere pushing back, but everybody else except for a handful of us stayed on and just kept doing what they were doing, just with new toxic must-run packages coming down from corporate and all the other nasty stuff that comes with Sinclair.

I also don't think buying up stations is a solution though - mainly because why would Sinclair and co sell, especially to an entity specifically doing it out of ideological opposition to them?
posted by jason_steakums at 11:46 AM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


NYTimes: A onetime top adviser to the Trump campaign was paid $50,000 to help seek a pardon for John Kiriakou, a former C.I.A. officer convicted of illegally disclosing classified information, and agreed to a $50,000 bonus if the president granted it, according to a copy of an agreement.

And Mr. Kiriakou was separately told that Mr. Trump’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani could help him secure a pardon for $2 million. Mr. Kiriakou rejected the offer, but an associate, fearing that Mr. Giuliani was illegally selling pardons, alerted the F.B.I. Mr. Giuliani challenged this characterization.
posted by nicoffeine at 11:54 AM on January 17, 2021 [26 favorites]


(laughing) "Let's buy TV stations - the Right has been doing it and cleaning our clocks." "Wellllll, it's actually complicated, and it might not work."

Or, to cut to the chase:

Metafilter: It's actually complicated and it might not work.
posted by PhineasGage at 11:55 AM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


Air America was a liberal-run radio station back in the day. I think that's the one time I remember anyone trying to do something like that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:00 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


I have an unhealthy preoccupation with imagining angels in various three letter agencies forming affinity groups, only interfering in the most dire cases and patiently waiting until the power of the Presidency changes hands. Imagine seeing just a tiny sliver of what is really happening, and not being able to tell anyone because it would compromise your sources, or bring the issue to the DOJ because they were too corrupt to do the right thing.
posted by nicoffeine at 12:02 PM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


AirAmerica

Sam Seder is still around doing The Majority Report on YouTube, which is really the way forward. Broadcast and cable is largely for Boomers, and their politics (and viewing habits) are rather ossified.

If you wanted to start some kind of separate platform, instead of relying on a multipronged YT, FB, Insta and Twitch presence then you'd be better off setting it up as a streaming service and making it available via a native app on mobile and smart-tv platforms.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:04 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Imagine seeing just a tiny sliver of what is really happening, and not being able to tell anyone because it would compromise your sources, or bring the issue to the DOJ because they were too corrupt to do the right thing.

I don't have to imagine. I watched what happened to Snowden. Who, as a reminder, is a white libertarian. If they're willing to chase him off to Russia over it, they'll do far worse to someone with more real scruples.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:05 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


The majority of self-described "libertarians" mostly care about two things: not paying taxes, and having a philosophical justification for being a monstrously selfish asshole.

...and legal weed
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:19 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


What do folks make of the relative quiet at state capitols today (knock on wood)?

Impossible to say, other than if they don't do anything today or while there's a heavy police presence, then they're at least somewhat smart.

They're an insurgency, sort of, and attacking head on is just foolish. Far better to just mix up some chemicals in your home, put them in the RV, and then drive into a populated area and set up your homemade bomb.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:20 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


...and legal weed

Legal for themselves, at any rate.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:25 PM on January 17, 2021 [8 favorites]


Arieh Kovler: QAnon spaces are pushing the same messages. They interpreted Trump's last video as a message to stay away because they think the military will be carrying out its coup and they'd only get in the way

Arieh Kovler is also saying, "The overwhelming consensus in pro-Trump spaces is that the supposed marches today are FBI/CIA/Antifa false flag events or honeypots designed to draw them out."
posted by clawsoon at 12:26 PM on January 17, 2021


I thought this was delightful, from soon-to-be first Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff: As we countdown to Inauguration Day, I've been doing my homework—and looking to the past for inspiration.
posted by Mchelly at 12:26 PM on January 17, 2021 [31 favorites]


In my very early days on the blue, in a tangled up political thread I can no longer find and for which I can no longer call the topic to mind, the following comment was made [approximately] about Libertarianism:

Libertarian: I have a poor understanding of the social contract and want to keep more of my stuff.

everyone else: but...history, politics, ethics, morality, logic, other reasons

Libertarian:...my stuff!
posted by hearthpig at 12:44 PM on January 17, 2021 [14 favorites]


Arieh Kovler is also saying, "The overwhelming consensus in pro-Trump spaces is that the supposed marches today are FBI/CIA/Antifa false flag events or honeypots designed to draw them out."

This might just be the solution to the whole QAnon problem. Biden should task someone in the intelligence community with convincing the Q crowd that they need to go into really deep Q cover during the start of Biden's term. No Q activities at all, no forums, no protests, no Q clothing, no talking about Q. It will all just lead to "them" catching you. Just try really hard and pretend you are non-Q, perhaps even that you have grown disenchanted and quit Q, and wait for the signal come out from under deep cover. Maybe even create an app that uses a crypto key so the Q crowd can authenticate any possible reactivation signal. Then just never reactivate them and hope that they gradually forget they are in deep normie cover and maybe they just end up being normies.

Like some sort of Q-jitsu.
posted by srboisvert at 12:57 PM on January 17, 2021 [44 favorites]


Taking that a half-step further:

Qanon has frequently been summarized as an ARG gone malign. Why not make an actual ARG sufficiently vast and interesting to suck up their time instead?
posted by at by at 1:01 PM on January 17, 2021 [9 favorites]


Because for an actual ARG that to be interesting enough, it would need to promote the same bigotry and violence that the Qspiracy promotes.

They don't actually care about the details. They're latching onto the message of "you have been screwed over, but we now have the True Story and you can reclaim your rightful place as rulers."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:05 PM on January 17, 2021 [15 favorites]


I didn't realize this whole Qanon thing was just a Protocols of the Elders of Zion ARG. /s
posted by deadaluspark at 1:07 PM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


Lindsey Graham, May 2016: "If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed and we will deserve it.

Lindsey Graham, Jan 2021: "It would destroy our party. Impeaching him after he leaves office would be disastrous for our country and our party."
posted by JackFlash at 1:08 PM on January 17, 2021 [19 favorites]


Qanon has frequently been summarized as an ARG gone malign. Why not make an actual ARG sufficiently vast and interesting to suck up their time instead?

MeFi's Own™ cstross's novel Halting State (2007) features ARGs used by intelligence agencies in a way somewhat like this, unknown to their participants, for accomplishing various espionage tasks.
posted by XMLicious at 1:09 PM on January 17, 2021 [10 favorites]


I think Q has jumped the shark anyway. Like any cool trend, once it goes mainstream it's over. Just start having Q cereal and super bowl commercials with the most uncool normie people saying "we're all Q, am I right?" Someone should really be (and probably is) looking for the next thing.

In other news some dumb woman got arrested today testing capitol security. I wouldn't write it off as crazy though, testing security is what it is.
posted by ctmf at 1:11 PM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


They're latching onto the message of "you have been screwed over, but we now have the True Story and

I think there's a great ARG in starting from this premise ... but just going diametrically elsewhere from Qanon past the "and". Yeah, you'll lose the passionately racist-nazi crowd but who wants them?
posted by philip-random at 1:14 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


I have been and am still confused about the one-time $2000 (or $1400 + $600) thing. It's catchy, and ends up being most of what gets talked about, and it's, like, the 20th most important thing in this proposal.... did you read the rest of the list? There's some good shit in there! Let's talk about that!

Haaaaaaaaave you met Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs?
posted by tzikeh at 1:16 PM on January 17, 2021 [8 favorites]


It's not even an ARG. ARG's have defined puzzles with answers that lead to a conclusion. QAnon is a toxic improv exercise with two rules.
1. Trump is a hero on a secret mission to save us all.
2. Anyone opposed to Trump is the worst form of evil imaginable.

I think another round of people will lose interest after the inauguration happens and Obamas/Clintons/Pelosi aren't in jail but they'll just latch onto the next everyone-left-of-me-is-evil improv game.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:21 PM on January 17, 2021 [11 favorites]


I think Q has jumped the shark anyway.

Prediction: QAnon will not die when Trump slinks off to Mar-a-Lago. It will simply morph into something else, albeit similar.
Rationale: Q is untethered to epistemology; like any other cult*, it is pure belief and actively resists objective fact. This will allow it to ignore its own predictive failures.
Case study: While there is no shortage of examples that illustrate similar behavior, the Jehovah's Witnesses will do just fine. Their prophet essentially predicted the second coming in 1878, 1881, 1914, 1918 and 1925. They simply offered "revisions" and moved on. They are today one of the fastest growing denominations in the US.

*I'm only picking on JW because their history is recent. Religions in general show similar behavior.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 1:24 PM on January 17, 2021 [12 favorites]


The acting secretary of defense is trying to install a Trump loyalist as the top lawyer at the National Security Agency

Trying successfully:
The National Security Agency is moving forward with hiring a Trump administration loyalist, the agency said Sunday […]

Acting Defense Secretary Christopher C. Miller had ordered the agency’s director, Gen. Paul M. Nakasone, to install Michael Ellis as its general counsel, giving him a 6 p.m. Saturday deadline.

The deadline came and went with the National Security Agency remaining silent. But the agency said in a statement on Sunday that “Mr. Ellis accepted his final job offer yesterday afternoon. N.S.A. is moving forward with his employment.” […]

Mr. Ellis’s allies had pushed for him to be installed before President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr. is inaugurated. While it will be difficult to fire Mr. Ellis under Civil Service rules, the Biden administration could easily reassign him to another, less important post.
Talk me down – that deadline feels like shit’s about to get very weird, especially if Biden could just move him back out.
posted by nicwolff at 1:25 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Or they want a loyalist in place so that they can have the incriminating records hidden before the Biden team can get to them.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 1:29 PM on January 17, 2021 [9 favorites]


> I think there's a great ARG in starting from this premise ... but just going diametrically elsewhere from Qanon past the "and". Yeah, you'll lose the passionately racist-nazi crowd but who wants them?

There are many accounts of people who avidly supported Obama and later gotten themselves fully immersed in Qanon. Racism is not an inherently immutable belief, and something people can be talked into is something they can be talked out of. It's just gonna take time and effort.
posted by at by at 1:43 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


Talk me down – that deadline feels like shit’s about to get very weird, especially if Biden could just move him back out.

Sure. How about this is more of Trump bluffing/pretending he's still got some viable power and authority - just a few days ago he sent some kind of budget cut demand to Congress, looking to knock a few billion off of science and environmental programs or something (it was a buzz on Twitter for like 5 minutes, impossible to find links to it now.)

Of course technically this is still something he's able to do; in practice Congress & agencies are just going to ignore it. Ellis was appointed back in November, he (apparently) hasn't finished jumping through the necessary bureaucratic hoops to actually start the gig, Trump is pulling a "Do what I say NOW" temper tantrum that the agency clearly just ignored.

And I suppose if he actually does manage to start in the next three days it could take a bit of time to dislodge or move him, considering *gestures at everything.*
posted by soundguy99 at 1:50 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


As with the general range of End Times cults, many if not most Q adherents won't suddenly recant their beliefs and abandon it no matter what happens in the real world. Here's an interesting thread from NBC New reporter Ben Collins that begins: "Over the last few years, I kept in touch with some QAnon supporters through DMs, checking in on them to see if they'd ever come out of it when their next doomsday came and went."
posted by PhineasGage at 1:50 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Meet the Press on Twitter
WATCH: Freshman Rep. Nancy Mace (R-S.C.) calls GOP objections to the electoral college "enormously disappointing."

@RepNancyMace: "I literally had to walk through a crime scene where that young woman was shot and killed to get into the chamber to vote" to certify the election.
(01:25)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:51 PM on January 17, 2021 [11 favorites]


It feels like that might really be the best route to de-fang the Q cult. If you can't deprogram them, you'd need to redirect. Send the message that the movement has been infiltrated and repurposed by the white supremacists to serve their own ends (which is kind of true, so that might be a strike against it). The faithful Q need to root them out so that the movement can re-focus on uncovering the pedophilic Satanist democrats. It feeds into their existing persecution complex and conspiracy thirst, and divorces the unsophisticated believers from the for-real nazis.
posted by team lowkey at 1:54 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


You know what I'm thinking the thing to do with QAnon and ARG-type stuff would be? Use it to try to accelerate sectarianism and break up the larger whole into more manageable pieces, or special-purpose-crafted pieces, like the Russians did by trying to turn different groups of Americans against each other. (So... the Russians are probably already doing something like this to QAnon, if they haven't been leading it around by the nose already. Or even if they have, I suppose.)
posted by XMLicious at 2:19 PM on January 17, 2021


I assume this is basically a fantasy discussion, but fiddling around with Qanon as a way to subvert it or use it for good seems silly and counterproductive. The more practical route is to do things like improve education, strengthen reality-based media and rebuild trustworthy institutions.
posted by snofoam at 2:31 PM on January 17, 2021 [33 favorites]


I've been thinking about Q-as-ARG through the lens of people experiencing cinema for the first time and thinking the train's really coming at them, or people who thought the War of the Worlds radio broadcast was real - most of us first experienced ARGs as clearly identified entertainment with our expectations grounded in that reality, but if you have a bunch of credulous people and you use the language of things they're primed to believe, the ARG experience probably feels very real. And ARG design does use a ton of tropes that originated in conspiracy believer circles, so that's another thing that's familiar to that particular target audience that they're already used to trusting.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:35 PM on January 17, 2021 [9 favorites]



snofoam: "I assume this is basically a fantasy discussion, but fiddling around with Qanon as a way to subvert it or use it for good seems silly and counterproductive. The more practical route is to do things like improve education, strengthen reality-based media and rebuild trustworthy institutions."

Isn't that also essentially fantasizing?
posted by team lowkey at 2:42 PM on January 17, 2021 [10 favorites]


I assume this is basically a fantasy discussion, but fiddling around with Qanon as a way to subvert it or use it for good seems silly and counterproductive.
Heckin' yes to this! This is exactly what the schemers at the GOP *thought* they were doing, and look what they are reaping. The crazy 33% of us is a tiger and grabbing it by the tail gets you exactly what you'd deserve.
posted by Horkus at 2:42 PM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


I'm not saying that there are any tested methods outside of fiction for the kinds of things we're discussing here (though I'd think aspects of the “computational propaganda” new Cold War are similar) but effectively dealing with QAnon seems important in the same way that effectively dealing with COVID was important, even when it appeared less formidable.

We're using twenty-first-century terms for it, but this is really an ancient problem—this is what concepts like “heresy” and “blasphemy” were intended to deal with, right?
posted by XMLicious at 2:43 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Isn't that also essentially fantasizing?

This is droll, but if you believe it is truly hopeless to try to make the world a better place, then sure, I suppose it doesn’t matter what we do.
posted by snofoam at 2:46 PM on January 17, 2021 [8 favorites]


I haven't seen anyone say anything about trying to wrangle Qanon as a force for good, only wondering how do we turn a brainwashed cult away from an actual violent insurgency.
posted by team lowkey at 2:48 PM on January 17, 2021


Playing QAnon-like games with QAnon is not going to fix QAnon.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:48 PM on January 17, 2021 [17 favorites]


Here's some new imagination fuel: All US federal prisons on temporary lockdown ahead of Biden inauguration.
posted by glonous keming at 2:52 PM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


It's not that it's “truly hopeless to try to make the world a better place”, it's that the printing press didn't fix the problem, near-universal literacy didn't fix the problem, and now humans having instantaneous access to near-infinite amounts of information, including something approximating the sum total of human knowledge in English before about 1925 (copyright horizon), including the greatest works of philosophers and humanists and other wise guys, actually seems to be making the problem worse.

So, it seems unwise, and a bit of a recipe for failure, to butt our heads against the wall of education and reality-based media alone as a solution.

Particularly for the US... is reality-based media going to include the advertising? Or do drug companies, and every other advertiser for that matter, still get to simply depict people living ecstatically happy problem-free lives as a result of consuming the product or service? Perhaps you can see why some might call it a fantasy...
posted by XMLicious at 2:59 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


I almost hate to be that person, but investing more in social services efforts that meaningfully assist people in getting healthcare, disability, and education would solve so many problems. I had to apply at one point in my life and it takes years, as does getting any public housing. The anxiety this creates in our society is immense and ridiculous for the wealthiest nation on the planet.

What's amazing is that the Republicans won the election with a guy promising to create jobs, raise wages (though through some magic economic thinking), and lower healthcare costs. They could have done it and they might still be running the country.

The blowback from the insurrection could include a single senator switching aisles, or at least going independent. That would break the tie and we could get things done. If we're going full realpolitik, find that senator, pass the things on Biden's agenda, and literally millions of people will have better lives and a better chance to become better people.
posted by nicoffeine at 3:17 PM on January 17, 2021 [31 favorites]


the printing press didn't fix the problem, near-universal literacy didn't fix the problem

Things haven't been getting steadily worse though. The approach to near universal literacy also corresponds with a notably long stretch of relative peace and stability in the world and steadily dropping crime in at least the US.

My take on public education solutions is that there's a hell of a lot of low hanging fruit we haven't even tried for us to be throwing our hands up already because it's hard.

I almost hate to be that person, but investing more in social services efforts that meaningfully assist people in getting healthcare, disability, and education would solve so many problems.

One of the Biden policies I'm most excited about is wanting to FINALLY raise the income and asset requirements for SSI for the first time since the 80s.
posted by jason_steakums at 3:22 PM on January 17, 2021 [18 favorites]


Those are good things which must be done, nicoffeine, but we have to do those things and combat QAnon and military computational propaganda strikes from foreign adversaries.

Unfortunately, even if you subtracted Trump and QAnon from the equation completely, things were going nowhere near the direction of more objectivity and neutrality and reality-basis: the trend was towards things like Facebook experimenting on your emotional state by shuffling your feed (producing statistically-significant results) and academics accepting the clickwrap Facebook Terms of Service as valid consent for experimentation on human subjects (2014 FPP).
posted by XMLicious at 3:26 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


More dots.

Records: Trump allies behind rally that ignited Capitol riot
A pro-Trump nonprofit group called Women for America First hosted the “Save America Rally” on Jan. 6 at the Ellipse, an oval-shaped, federally owned patch of land near the White House. But an attachment to the National Park Service public gathering permit granted to the group lists more than half a dozen people in staff positions for the event who just weeks earlier had been paid thousands of dollars by Trump’s 2020 reelection campaign. Other staff scheduled to be “on site” during the demonstration have close ties to the White House.

Since the siege, several of them have scrambled to distance themselves from the rally.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:35 PM on January 17, 2021 [27 favorites]


Another win for ProPublica - a collection of over 500 (!) videos from the rally, outside the Capitol and inside, during the insurrection, in chronological order:

"ProPublica reviewed thousands of videos uploaded publicly to the service that were archived by a programmer before Parler was taken offline by its web host. Below is a collection of more than 500 videos that ProPublica determined were taken during the events of Jan. 6 and were relevant and newsworthy. Taken together, they provide one of the most comprehensive records of a dark event in American history through the eyes of those who took part."

Bonus ProPublica articles: Why We Published Hundreds of Videos Taken by Parler Users of the Capitol Riots and Inside the Capitol Riot: What the Parler Videos Reveal

From the latter:

"The videos are certainly not the last word on the subject, but taken together they do help us answer two key questions about the mob: Who were they and what were their motivations? In a decade, historians will still be writing doctoral dissertations about these questions, just as they did about the crowd that stormed the Bastille on July 14, 1789 or the mob in Adolf Hitler’s beer hall putsch. But these Parler videos deepen our understanding and take us beyond the glimpses visible so far from the relatively small number of people who have been charged with crimes."

But please do read the second article - it's excellent.
posted by deeker at 3:42 PM on January 17, 2021 [50 favorites]


The approach to near universal literacy also corresponds with a notably long stretch of relative peace and stability in the world and steadily dropping crime in at least the US.

I'm not sure which period you're counting as the approach, but unfortunately if for example you're talking about the Cold War the peace and stability was only in the places where there weren't proxy wars, such as the Balkans or the Korean Peninsula. And before the Cold War... I probably don't have to go into details.

Yeah, things have gotten better on most measures, but beware teleology, a characteristic of Just World Theory; progress is not inevitable. Look at China or Ancient Egypt: the heights of imperial splendor, art, learning, science, interrupted by dynastic-interregnum chaos—some times really bad and really long. To be grossly generalizing—cyclical cosmologies in the East, teleological convergence on some kind of holy singularity in the West. (and when society collapses it's “bah, that was just another Tower of Babel, hubris blah blah but God loves us, put in another quarter, this time we'll win...”)
posted by XMLicious at 3:51 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


beware teleology, a characteristic of Just World Theory; progress is not inevitable

Bewaring it is one thing but you also can't just run in the opposite direction! It's like when seeing "institutions will not save us" as a retort on Metafilter - it's meant as a warning against complacency, it's not an inevitable destination. Institutions are one among many things that have done damn good work in helping us survive this so far because we didn't get complacent about active participation in and defense of those institutions. We can't discard tools in our toolbox that brought us a very long way and brought a lot of good to the world because we're in a difficult moment. And a lot of things that can be done in lieu of a pure public education approach might be a quicker fix, but they're brittle if we don't use the time they buy us to keep ramping up public education - whatever the details of what gets us out of this moment, it's definitely going to be layer upon layer of different approaches and we can't afford to discard anything.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:23 PM on January 17, 2021 [24 favorites]


Related to the Qanon being similar to an ARG thing, assuming everyone saw A Game Designer’s Analysis Of QAnon on Medium back in September?
posted by MattWPBS at 4:31 PM on January 17, 2021 [8 favorites]


The approach to near universal literacy also corresponds with a notably long stretch of relative peace and stability in the world and steadily dropping crime in at least the US

the relative peace and stability has more to do with 1) the great power stalemate of the Cold War, with mutual assured destruction acting as a check on militarism and 2) the emergence of the USA as a global hegemon post-1991 (not too dissimilar to the Pax Brittanica post-1815).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:32 PM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


ChurchHatesTucker beat me to it, but just for emphasis, this was organized:
But an attachment to the National Park Service public gathering permit granted to the group lists more than half a dozen people in staff positions for the event who just weeks earlier had been paid thousands of dollars by Trump’s 2020 reelection campaign. Other staff scheduled to be “on site” during the demonstration have close ties to the White House.
This is looking veeeerrrrry treasony.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:50 PM on January 17, 2021 [27 favorites]


I guess technically it's more like conspiracy to commit insurrection or something, but it was definitely treason in their hearts
posted by schadenfrau at 4:59 PM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


jason_steakums: No, not discarding or discounting them, or neglecting the shared cognitive infrastructure as it were—it's just that we shouldn't assume that the old tools will meet the challenge of the times in the same way, nor adequately by themselves. It's like, the printing press and public education were good, unquestionable net positives, but to return to the arcade game metaphor which I like as an 80s kid, mashing the “more information” button does not seem to have achieved what might have been hoped for in earlier eras as far as public enlightenment goes.

And I don't think any further extension of “more information” on its own can help now, as I might have imagined in the Wild West of the 90s internet.

We can't assume that those old techniques and channels for disseminating higher-quality information will interact with the “infodemic” problems in the same ameliorating way or a linear way, where more education or more institution equals less batshit crazy at a population level.

We've also been developing new info-pathologies too, like highly-trained life sciences scientists who are actually indoctrinated Creationists from birth (Are we probably nearing two full generations of that, now—people in the biz whose parents or parent-aged professional mentors have the same orthogonal ideology to the status of evolution in their work life, siloing everything in preparation for changing the scientific record itself? Academics in the room?), and institutionally tenured scientific specialists in fields within or adjacent to climate change whose entire (industrially funded) careers are based on meticulously and exactingly providing the types of “doubt” in public discussion of climate change which won't imperil their scientific credentials. (I'm thinking of that Harvard guy who Trump mentions at Reich Party Conventions rallies and then segues into telling the story of his uncle the Harvard professor, or whatever, that proves his superior brain-genes.)

If you're not familiar with Lysenkoism, check it out—many institutions of that era were on the ropes, but still had solid cores—seed bank protectors at the WWII siege of Stalingrad—and the Soviet bloc had many of the most highly educated people in the world.
posted by XMLicious at 5:01 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


I've been thinking about Q-as-ARG through the lens of people experiencing cinema for the first time and thinking the train's really coming at them, or people who thought the War of the Worlds radio broadcast was real

Those are poor reference points, because neither of those things actually happened.
posted by LooseFilter at 5:01 PM on January 17, 2021 [10 favorites]


Bah, that should be “seed bank protectors at the WWII siege of Leningrad” above, missed the edit window.
posted by XMLicious at 5:11 PM on January 17, 2021


But an attachment to the National Park Service public gathering permit granted to the group lists more than half a dozen people in staff positions for the event who just weeks earlier had been paid thousands of dollars by Trump’s 2020 reelection campaign. Other staff scheduled to be “on site” during the demonstration have close ties to the White House.

Leslie Knope, say it ain’t so.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 5:24 PM on January 17, 2021


I haven't read this book yet, but The Ku Klux Klan in Canada seems like it might have some clues for how to make a racist movement full of grifters go down the memory hole. Most of us Canadians don't have a clue how big the Klan was in Canada, and would never consider it part of our identity.
posted by clawsoon at 5:31 PM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


The Day Wall Street Exploded also has some discussion of how anarchism was basically wiped out of shared American memory after 1920.
posted by clawsoon at 5:34 PM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


Those are poor reference points, because neither of those things actually happened.

Don't know about War of the Worlds stuff but from the train link:

Since there are no surviving contemporary accounts of the audience reaction to those 1896 showings, there is no concrete proof that audiences ever went scurrying for the back of theater as the train pulled in on screen, and Loiperdinger thinks that such a reaction is unlikely.

This isn't proof of anything either way. It's a historian registering his informed opinion in the wake of zero evidence. I'm bothering to point this out because way back when in my film school days, the story I heard (from the prof) was that people flinched from the train on the movie screen. There was no mention of anyone leaving their seats, let alone stampeding.

So yeah, I think saying ...

I've been thinking about Q-as-ARG through the lens of people experiencing cinema for the first time and thinking the train's really coming at them,

makes sense as it speaks to the sort of vertigo that can impose when we're exposed to something unprecedented (for us) from the media realm. It puts us off balance. The confusion is palpable. We'll grab onto anything that seems solid. And further, when you look at how those who embrace the Qanon stuff tend to skew older, it starts to make sense that part of what's going on is the sheer bewilderment of people who'd already made their minds up about the world and how it works long before anyone had ever even coined the term "social media".
posted by philip-random at 5:45 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


For those new to the Qanon-as-Alternate-Reality-Game idea, WNYC just had a short (11:23) interview with Reed Berkowitz, the ARG designer who wrote that Medium article mentioned above.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:01 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


Ku Klux Klanada?
posted by kirkaracha at 6:14 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


investing more in social services

Besides agreeing with that, thanks for using 'social services', not 'welfare'.
posted by Pouteria at 6:21 PM on January 17, 2021


If (like me) you didn’t know, ARG = Alternate Reality Game.
posted by cenoxo at 6:33 PM on January 17, 2021 [18 favorites]


Some new charges, including zip-tie #1's mom, and this gemstone of a winner:
Betancur had been wearing a GPS monitor in connection with a previous probation violation, authorities said, and location data referenced in a charging document against him shows his presence in restricted areas of the Capitol grounds.
posted by glonous keming at 6:47 PM on January 17, 2021 [36 favorites]


makes sense as it speaks to the sort of vertigo that can impose when we're exposed to something unprecedented (for us) from the media realm. It puts us off balance.

But as an urban legend at best, poor reference points for actual human behavior and also, as metaphor, a misrepresentation of the actual primary effects of hyper-reality as constructed by our current media, content and use habits. (The McLuhan recommendation is more on-point, or even Boorstin’s The Image as a starting place.) All I’m saying is, when discussing human behavior in response to new media, it’s maybe best to use examples that happened rather than what we imagine human behavior to have been.
posted by LooseFilter at 6:48 PM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


deeker, thank you so much for those ProPublica links. I am not sure when I'll have the time or the stomach to watch them, or even read that article attentively, but I have bookmarked them, and I'm glad to know they exist.

Folks upthread talking about buying TV stations might consider looking into ways to support ProPublica. They do extraordinary work, often in partnership with (what's left of) award-winning local news organizations, and their reporting often changes things, through governmental investigations or new policies by profiled officials.

They aren't the silver bullet to fix the news crisis, but they do outstanding and necessary work, and I encourage our community to support them when we can.
posted by kristi at 7:00 PM on January 17, 2021 [13 favorites]


If you're looking for something like the War of the Worlds that actually worked, the story of the completely bonkers psyops campaign that was used for the Guatemalan coup and posted a few months back is worth a read.
posted by clawsoon at 7:01 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


(I'll note that the article telling the story of the Guatemalan coup made some explicit parallels to Putin and Trump's misinformation campaigns.
posted by clawsoon at 7:14 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


Wonder if a pardon-buying sting would have worked.
posted by ctmf at 7:25 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


I don't think so. They've been peddling "access" to Trump and not guaranteeing pardons per se.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:35 PM on January 17, 2021


Soooo I spent the evening scrolling through the entire Propublica page of Parler videos from Jan 6th. A few things that struck me:
- There were a lot of people at the rally.
- There is a violent standoff going on at one of the doors for hours after people have been wandering aimlessly through the capitol. (and other people maybe not wandering aimlessly, but you mostly see the aimless wandering)
- It's hard to cheer for the cops in this day and age but, yeah...
- These people have been lied to. A lot. (not that that excuses anything; it's just a matter )

A few notable videos:
(Soon to be former?) Pastor #1 sitting in the Capitol musing about how talk is cheap and deciding he's ok with losing his job.

This guy is partly full of shit but he's right on this point: "...and if they are free and fair, they you better figure out how to make people believe they are free and fair."

Pastor #2 interviewing a proximity-witness account of the shooting. (doesn't sound like he actually saw it?)

This "interview" is really something. #selfawarewolves (in particular the speech about Schindler's List at 2:30) (note: impassioned racism)
posted by ropeladder at 7:36 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Increased access to information and education aren't the same thing, and not all education is equally important for citizenship in a democracy. Civics education has been completely gutted in the U.S. over the last several decades, mostly thanks to a coordinated campaign by the Republican party, who chose to pursue a strategy of promoting their ideology of minimal government by denying citizens access to good-quality information about how government actually works, making it easier to deceive voters into thinking that government is usually inefficient or corrupt, that their taxes are too high while yielding too few services, that they as individuals have little or no ability to shape how their government operates, etc. One of the things that's become absolutely clear during the Trump era is that the United States badly needs to address this lack of civics literacy. And I don't mean just by educating children better; education is (or should be) a lifetime process, and the lack of a proper system for actual continuing civics education means that propagandists like Fox News can jump in to fill the gap.

I think it's worth noting that there exists a profession specifically for helping people, adults or children, navigate massive, confusing amounts of information in a way that helps them answer their questions with legitimate sources rather than nonsense: librarians. I really believe that alongside healthcare, an income safety net, and other social services, one of the Democrats' top priorities ought to be the establishment of a national library system to reinvigorate our public libraries and make sure everyone has access to a librarian who can help them sort fact from nonsense when trying to make decisions as citizens. It's not a change that would work overnight, but make sure the libraries have plenty of resources to offer services that everyone wants (books! music! movies! tool rental! maker space! small business advising! co-working space!) and that librarians are seen as trusted professionals on par with, say, doctors, and I believe this kind of professionally guided access and education for the entire citizenry throughout the entire lifetime would go a long way toward helping curb the worst excesses of the Fox-News-cum-QAnon cult thinking.
posted by biogeo at 7:39 PM on January 17, 2021 [50 favorites]


There isn't a "moderation" solution to the problem of lightning fast social media.

Real data indicates this is not true.

Misinformation dropped dramatically the week after Twitter banned Trump and some allies

And if you don't believe the data, you should be able to believe you own eyes and ears. It's been pretty obvious that the temperature and level of anxiety across the country and around the world has gone down noticeably since Trump was kicked off Twitter. And that's just a trivially small amount of moderation.

Just because you can't moderate everything, it doesn't logically follow that you never try to moderate anything.
posted by JackFlash at 7:41 PM on January 17, 2021 [48 favorites]


make sure everyone has access to a librarian who can help them sort fact from nonsense when trying to make decisions as citizens.

Lovely idea, but anyone so inclined can already check Snopes et al.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:42 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


rump to issue around 100 pardons and commutations Tuesday, CNN sources say [CTVnews.ca]

a major batch of clemency actions that includes white collar criminals, high-profile rappers and others but -- as of now -- is not expected to include Trump himself
posted by porpoise at 7:46 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


I'm sure the list of pardons will include his children, but I would be not the least bit surprised if he conspicuously neglected to pardon one of them, like Eric, because that's just the kind of bullshit family they are.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:49 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


And speaking of alternate reality, 2 lawyers, Stephen Miller apparently wrote Trump's post-impeachment 'peace in our country' speech, The Week, January 14, 2021 [alternate Google cache link]:
After President Trump was impeached for a second time, the White House posted a video Wednesday evening of the president "unequivocally" condemning the "violence and vandalism" at the U.S. Capitol last week and urging his supporters to "ease tensions, calm tempers, and help to promote peace in our country." Advisers say the video was partly the result of Trump's "realization of the catastrophic fallout from the deadly siege," The New York Times reports, and "the aides most involved in the language of the video" were White House Counsel Pat Cipollone, deputy counsel Pat Philbin, and Stephen Miller, Trump's main speechwriter.

Ivanka Trump, Jared Kushner, aide Dan Scavino, and Vice President Mike Pence "persuaded Trump to film the video, telling him it could boost support among weak Republicans," The Washington Post reports. "Even after it was recorded and posted," the Times adds, "Trump still had to be reassured."...
He may be the weakest Republican of them all. Only three days left.
posted by cenoxo at 8:02 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


ChurchHatesTucker, but that's exactly my point. Access to a website like Snopes is great, but it's not the same as access to a person who is professionally trained to help you find and evaluate information sources, by working with you to understand what your knowledge level is, what you're really trying to learn, and how to help you understand the bias in the various sources available to you. Not all librarians do all of that all the time, but it's broadly speaking a part of their bailiwick, and something I think we should make more available to people and encourage them to use.
posted by biogeo at 8:02 PM on January 17, 2021 [19 favorites]


"rump to issue around 100 pardons and commutations Tuesday, CNN sources say [CTVnews.ca]"

From that article:
"Everything is a transaction. He likes pardons because it is unilateral. And he likes doing favors for people he thinks will owe him," one source familiar with the matter said.

Yep, that sounds about right.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 8:05 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


25,000 Guardsmen Are In The Capital, Five Times The Troops In Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq Combined — An unprecedented level of security has descended on Washington, D.C. ahead of the inaugural. How we got here and what comes next., The War Zone, Tyler Rogoway, 1/17/2021. No hoax, this: it’s sobering enough to read, let alone quote.

How’s that Make America Great Again thing working out for you, President Trump?
posted by cenoxo at 8:26 PM on January 17, 2021


How’s that Make America Great Again thing working out for you, President Trump?

His supporters will start saying he was stabbed in the back any moment now.
posted by rhizome at 8:31 PM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


A plan to rescue America? How about reuniting the New Radicals?
“America knows in its heart that things will get bright again with a new administration and a real plan for vaccines on the way. That’s the message of the song… this world is gonna pull through.”

The hit also has a deep connection with the Biden family: In Joe Biden’s 2017 autobiography, Promise Me, Dad, he wrote that “You Get What You Give” became the family’s rallying “theme song” for son Beau Biden during his battle with cancer.

“During breakfast, Beau would often make me listen to what I thought was his theme song, ‘You Get What You Give’ by the New Radicals,” Biden wrote. “Even though Beau never stopped fighting and his will to live was stronger than most – I think he knew that this day might come. The words to the song are: This whole damn world can fall apart. You’ll be ok, follow your heart.”

Alexander added, “Performing the song again after such a long time is a huge honor because we all have deep respect for Beau’s military service and such high hopes for the unity and normalcy Joe and Kamala will bring our country again in this time of crisis.”
MAKE MY NIPPLES HARD LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:35 PM on January 17, 2021 [14 favorites]


Access to Snopes is great if you have reliable internet access :)
posted by unknowncommand at 8:37 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


Yes biogeo, thank you! I've been going around ranting to Mr. gudrun about how the lack of Civics education is partly to blame for this. I'm going to make him read what you wrote, since you explained it better than I have been able to.
posted by gudrun at 8:38 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Access to Snopes is great if you have reliable internet access :)

Which is when you'd need them.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:45 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


Speaking of qanon, NYT did a profile of a self-designated QAnon "meme queen." She lives in Manhattan, on the Upper East Side, graduated from the Dalton School, and was educated at Harvard: "she had a longstanding suspicion of elites dating back to her Harvard days, when she felt out of place among people she considered snobby rich kids. As an adult, she joined the anti-establishment left, advocating animal rights and supporting the Standing Rock oil pipeline protests. She admired the hacktivist group Anonymous, and looked up to whistle-blowers like Julian Assange and Edward Snowden. She was a registered Democrat for most of her life, but she voted for Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, in the 2016 presidential election after deciding that both major parties were corrupt."
posted by BungaDunga at 8:47 PM on January 17, 2021 [11 favorites]


BungaDunga, that's heartbreaking.
When she solves a new piece of the puzzle, she posts it to Facebook, where her QAnon friends post heart emojis and congratulate her.

This collaborative element, which some have likened to a massively multiplayer online video game, is a big part of what drew Ms. Gilbert to QAnon and keeps her there now.

“I am really good at putting symbols together,” she said
Too good, is the problem.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:15 PM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]




It seems to me that QAnon enthusiasts are 100% convinced that the sort of amateur numerology sleuthing they do is what critical thinking is. Distrusting authority and coming to your own conclusions, and comparing notes with experts in the topic.

Some people with this impulse get into open-source intelligence and become Eliot Higgins. But that's really hard and unrewarding- it's so much easier when you just decide that everything you thought was true has been validated. There's something weirdly childlike about the whole thing, reverse vampires etc.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:33 PM on January 17, 2021 [9 favorites]


The right doesn't trust Snopes. I've been told to "fact check my fact check". I like the idea of a trusted librarian better.
posted by freethefeet at 10:06 PM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


QAnon like experience....posted once before. Mods, feel free to delete if it is derail.

In 1988, I was in a serious cycling accident. I had graduated from UCLA 6 months before and really did not know what my next life step was going to be.

The accident got me into yoga as I wanted a means to heal brain trauma. I soon was involved with a yoga teacher after having a spiritual experience in her class. We initially became friends. She had mentioned that she was ritually and sexually abused by a satanic group. (This was around the time of the McMartin Trials) My attraction was to her too strong to question it. I began to do regression therapy with her (this was Hollywood in 1989. I just wanted answers) I was molested as a kid. She pressed /led more and more. At some point I tipped into that QAnon like-space and believed that I was ritually abused like her.

All of a sudden I began making "connections". Family to family. Where the rituals took place. How the abuser began local and began involve local and state politician. Incidents I remembered as a child were now seen as part of the Satanic narrative. The center of it all was in San Francisco. I even went to the place in SF "guided by my memory" as to where a ritual took place. If I looked hard enough I could find books about these satanic groups in other cities My life was all about the "disovering the network". At some point, my relationship with this woman disintegrated. And at another point, I came out of this trance.

I saw it then and still see it know as "entering a loop" Once in, its as if one is held there by centrifugal force.

A literary friend of mine later said "It sounds like you went through "Foucault's Pendulum"

For those new to the Qanon-as-Alternate-Reality-Game idea, WNYC just had a short (11:23) interview with Reed Berkowitz, the ARG designer who wrote that Medium article mentioned above.

I would agree with a lot of what he says. My sense then was that a cult structure is internalized. We just need the right crumbs to throw that grid over what we "see." I read a book this year that argued that we have internalized authoritarian systems through the centuries and continue today in subtle and unknowingly accepted ways. The authors speak of such from a guru/student perspective, the necessity of "surrender" to the guru, and the "love bombing" members of the cult do to this student in order to get them to that place.

I am not surprised that QAnon has infiltrated spiritual communites/styles/etc. Realty here is "flexible" and "porous" A woman named Teal Swan is using the same backstory the yoga teacher used. She has a huge following

After really looking at this relationship I had with this teacher (and why I was blind, besides the fact that I was young) was that I wanted the "power" that she had. I would do anything to get it...believing that she knew more than me and that she had power that I wanted to attain. I have no doubt that Trumper/QAnon/etc are no different. Because of that, I think that there is a huge amount of infighting within these groups. Everyone jockeying for the power position or to be a part of the "in" group. If they don't, then they will start their own pyramid scheme. Palace politics are always going to be a part of this game.

I don't think they are a cohesive unit now and never will be one.

I do hope they have the guts to admit that they are fools and get on with their lives. It's going to be hardest for those, men or women, who have families. They will do whatever it take to save face and either hustled or be hustled because of it.
posted by goalyeehah at 10:30 PM on January 17, 2021 [66 favorites]


"I do hope they have the guts to admit that they are fools and get on with their lives. It's going to be hardest for those, men or women, who have families. They will do whatever it take to save face and either hustled or be hustled because of it."

Thank you for sharing your story, goalyeehah.

I wonder sometimes how much the sunk-cost fallacy also plays into it for those who start to question things and consider pulling out of these groups or ideas. The sunk-cost of all the time and emotional energy they spent trying to investigate and believe and perhaps they tell themselves that there must still have been a grain of truth there that made it worth it. The lost relationships. This is just my general speculation and not based on any kind of research.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 10:39 PM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


They will do whatever it take to save face and either hustled or be hustled because of it.

They will double down. No one wants to admit that they were wrong, let alone having been fooled.
posted by ichomp at 10:47 PM on January 17, 2021


From the ProPublica article linked above, Inside the Capitol Riot: What the Parler Videos Reveal.
If the mob’s bewilderment over the great building before them is one dominant feature of the day — whether to trash it or venerate it — its bewilderment over the police is even greater. Watching hundreds of Parler videos shows that the disturbing ones that first surfaced publicly, of officers taking selfies with protesters and otherwise laying down for the attackers, offered a picture that was far from complete.

The police visible in the videos fought tenaciously, and the resulting sense of betrayal in the crowd is palpable.
This to me comes back to a Trumpist quote from before Covid: "they're hurting the wrong people". This idea that hurting some people is completely fine, an Us versus Them attitude. Which is mostly rooted in racism, but branches out into all sorts of ideas about who deserves to be punished just for existing. It's a worldview I just can't wrap my head around, no matter how many times it's demonstrated to me that so many people take it as an unquestionable assumption.

The full article is worth a read if you are grappling with all the contradictions of what happened on the 6th.
posted by harriet vane at 10:52 PM on January 17, 2021 [22 favorites]


I haven't read this book yet, but The Ku Klux Klan in Canada seems like it might have some clues for how to make a racist movement full of grifters go down the memory hole.

In the US the Ku Klux Klan has been replaced by the Q Qucks Qlan.
posted by jamjam at 1:16 AM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


XMLicious mentioned it above as well — I think a lot of what makes Qanon "work" is what would have been denounced as "heresy" or "blasphemy" in earlier times. As I see it the root of the problem isn't so much that Qanon cultists are objectively wrong or deluded (although they are). The root of the problem is that to let (movements like) Qanon fester is to risk a massive societal & epistemological schism.

I do think education is part of the solution, but only when understood in a broad sense as a project of socialization, as an induction into society, rather than as a purely instrumental means to transfer skills and knowledge. Because I don't think what the Qanon cultists lack is skill or knowledge or even curiosity as such. To some extent they practice what we've preached: they question appearances, they're skeptical of authorities, they think for themselves and encourage one another to "do research". So they've adopted a lot of the concepts involved in what we would call critical thinking or scientific process. Except their application of those concepts is unorthodox, and it is leading them into idolatry.
posted by dmh at 2:00 AM on January 18, 2021 [10 favorites]


Ben Sasse writes for The Atlantic of the coming GOP civil war: QAnon Is Destroying the GOP From Within


"The violence that Americans witnessed—and that might recur in the coming days—is not a protest gone awry or the work of “a few bad apples.” It is the blossoming of a rotten seed that took root in the Republican Party some time ago and has been nourished by treachery, poor political judgment, and cowardice. When Trump leaves office, my party faces a choice: We can dedicate ourselves to defending the Constitution and perpetuating our best American institutions and traditions, or we can be a party of conspiracy theories, cable-news fantasies, and the ruin that comes with them. We can be the party of Eisenhower, or the party of the conspiracist Alex Jones. We can applaud Officer Goodman or side with the mob he outwitted. We cannot do both."

Although too much of his analysis indulges in both-sideism, it's a powerful piece by a man who appears to fear for the future. As an insight in to one wing of the emerging Republican conflagration, it's worth a read.
posted by deeker at 2:16 AM on January 18, 2021 [8 favorites]


Ben Sasse is right, but he can go suck a lemon. Vanity Fair detailed it all last Fall: "Ben Sasse, Who’s Served as Trump’s Footstool for Four Years, Now Has Bad Things to Say About Him." He's very late to the reality and principles gala.
posted by PhineasGage at 3:10 AM on January 18, 2021 [23 favorites]


it's a powerful piece by a man who appears to fear for the future

Only thing missing is "you can use my words against me."

Mr. Sasse, there are Representatives and Senators who must be expelled. Try to focus.

We can be the party of Eisenhower, or the party of the conspiracist Alex Jones.

See, that battle has already been fought, and The Past lost. Sasse is playing his readers for fools, trying to squeeze out some relevance/power by misrepresenting the present. The important present. Ah, but Coach Sidelines has something to say. You know, that guy's been on TV before!
posted by rhizome at 3:48 AM on January 18, 2021 [11 favorites]


Reuters: President Donald Trump may turn to Rudy Giuliani to defend him against possible impeachment over his role in last week’s violent siege of the U.S. Capitol

Well, I've got a lawyer and Rudy is his name
(Rudy, Rudy, Rudy baby)
He don't love me and I don't pay him just the same
(Rudy, Rudy, Rudy baby)

posted by Pouteria at 3:55 AM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


The right doesn't trust Snopes.

Sure, but that doesn't detract from ChurchHatesTucker's point. If anything, it reinforces it.

For the most part, people already have access to the same information that we do. As ChurchHatesTucker said, those who are "so inclined" to entertain fact and reason have plenty of sources to choose from. But Trumpists and QAnoners are not so inclined. They have chosen to reject sources which challenge their prejudices.

Snopes doesn't help, because the cultists have simply rejected Snopes as part of the conspiracy. More librarians won't help, because the cultists will just reject librarians.

The problem isn't that we don't have enough factual and reasonable sources of information. We are overflowing with those. A person could spend 24 hours a day immersed in factual and reasonable sources, and still have enough left over to do it thousand more times, if they're so inclined.

The problem is that a huge segment of the American population have given themselves, and each other, permission to disregard fact. Among that subculture, the cultural norm which obliges people to inhabit reality has collapsed. They've collectively decided that it's permissible – obligatory, even – to inhabit a fantasy world.

We can't solve that problem by shoveling more fact and reason at them. They will just brush it aside, and add another wrinkle to their byzantine theology to account for it. (And "theology" is the right word – their worldview has far more in common with religion than with reason.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:26 AM on January 18, 2021 [59 favorites]


rhizome > His supporters will start saying he was stabbed in the back any moment now.

The stab-in-the-back myth (Dolchstoßlegende) may be what Trump and his true believers have been clinging to all along:
Washington riot reminds Germans of century-old myth — Stolen election theory as vague and elastic for Trump supporters’ needs as the stab-in-the-back myth that facilitated Hitler’s rise, The Irish Times, Derek Scally in Berlin, 1/9/2021.

Germans looked on at events at this week’s Washington riot with a familiar, sinking feeling.
Six months ago, a small group of far-right and esoteric extremists, on the fringes of an anti-Covid restrictions march, rushed the steps of the Reichstag parliament building in Berlin [Far Right Germans Try to Storm Reichstag as Virus Protests Escalate, NYT, 8/31/20].

Faced down by three police officers, the mob failed to get inside, but an image of that day stands out: a protester waving an old German imperial flag, beloved of Kaiser loyalists, with two additions: the face of Donald Trump and the “Q” of the QAnon conspiracy theory [Getty Images (click image to zoom)].

The link in minds here between Germany’s past and the US’s present has hardened further with Trump’s unsubstantiated “stolen vote” claim, sparking memories of another myth a century ago that paved Adolf Hitler’s path to power.

For all the very different circumstances – above all, Trump is certainly no Hitler – the question for many Germans is whether the Washington riot over a “stolen” vote marks the end of the rise of US populism, or merely concludes the overture...
Hopefully it’s the end. If not, we’ll recognize the theme music.
posted by cenoxo at 4:27 AM on January 18, 2021 [6 favorites]


From the ABC News chief Whitehouse correspondent: "Rudy Giuliani now says he won’t on the Trump impeachment defense team. 'Because I gave an earlier speech [at the January 6 Trump rally], I am a witness and therefore unable to participate in court or Senate chamber,' he tells me."
posted by nobody at 4:34 AM on January 18, 2021 [11 favorites]


For the most part, people already have access to the same information that we do.

I think this is true. I think there is an argument that both-sides-ism, the willingness of right wing media to promote lies as fact on "mainstream" outlets and the ability for Trump and others to lie directly to the public via social media all make it easier to radicalize people to begin with. But once they're in the thrall, they definitely are not going to be moved by reason.

So, if they get a psychological reward from this and can't be turned around by reason, what is the most effective strategy? I think it is to socially reject people with these views and suppress these views, so instead of being rewarded for having them, they stop getting this reinforcement. One could argue that this will radicalize them or something, but it feels like they are already radicalized. I would hope some portion of them, those in it for "all the winning" will grow tired of it when they are losing.
posted by snofoam at 4:56 AM on January 18, 2021 [8 favorites]


Lest anyone think that I harbour even a modicum of respect for Ben Sasse, let me be clear that I do not. I posted his op-ed specifically to show how the coming Republican civil war is shaping up and how terrified the non-insurrectionary wing is of that conflict. The insurrectionary, white supremacist, conspiracist, dominionist, theo-fascist wing, by contrast, looks likely to positively relish the prospect of casting Republicans like Ben fucking Sasse as RINOs. Too little, too late? For sure - but that doesn't detract from the sheer sense of panic between the lines of what he writes. It's very, very far from clear that the plutocratic-institutionalist wing can actually come out on top, at least in the short or even medium-term, and those on the left can hardly be expected to feel sorry for this particular frog after the scorpion has done what it does but rather to capitalise on that disarray. Both parts of that are, rightly, nightmare-fuel for the plutocratic-institutionalist wing.

In part, then, it seems that Sasse is beginning to see that decades of entertaining the white supremacist-conspiracist (etc) element of the Republican coalition for plutocratic ends was always dangerous since there was always a risk they would take over the party; at least as likely, he sees that the coming struggle is a gift to the Democrats. He writes:

"Sensing a chance at tribal expansion, some on the left are thrilled by the chaos on the right, and they’re eager to seize the moment to banish from polite society not just those who participated and encouraged violence, but anyone with an R next to his or her name. "

We should take succour from and relish op-eds like Sasse's, even as we jeer him as a johnny-come-lately who actively entertained fascists - it's leopards eating faces all the way to the top! If he's remotely capable of putting his money where his mouth is, though, and if others follow suit, the Democrats stand a chance of avoiding the curse of the mid-term blow-out and even to dominate the next few electoral cycles. Beyond even that, and as a direct result, there's surely a chance for the Democrats to fully seize the moment and the near future to utterly smash the Republican party (or to assist in its self-immolation) and, finally if not immediately, usher in a new episteme, new horizons of what can be thought and done - so that, when something emerges from the wreckage of the Republican party, their future is circumscribed by that new orthodoxy of political discourse, so that their future administrations have to dance to a tune they dislike but cannot change. (That is to say, that their future Presidents have to be like a Clinton or an Obama under the post-Reagan consensus; hobbled from the get-go.)

I'd go on (about, say, how demographics are also in the Democrat's favour, especially if they can relatively soon clear out their own old guard and try to forge, as part of that new episteme, a multiracial coalition which also caters to the long-ignored working class and proletarianised millennial middle class) but you get the idea.

He might be a hypocrite or desperate fool or fully deserving of what happens to his party but rejoice! Rejoice in every similar op-ed, interview and debate! Dougie Howser in a trenchcoat has probed the brian-monster and declared, "It's afraid. It's afraid!
posted by deeker at 5:05 AM on January 18, 2021 [10 favorites]


"Sensing a chance at tribal expansion, some on the left are thrilled by the chaos on the right, and they’re eager to seize the moment to banish from polite society not just those who participated and encouraged violence, but anyone with an R next to his or her name. "

"When I spent several years voting in lockstep with a President who encouraged violence, voted to exclude witness testimony from the impeachment trial of a President who encouraged violence, remained silent while the President and fellow Republicans and media sources encouraged violence, and rose only to the level of Expressing Concern while all of the above spread vicious lies about the electoral process that encouraged violence in increasingly loud voices, I in no way was encouraging violence and I resent being lumped in with that crowd of which I am a card-carrying member."

Feck off, Ben.
posted by delfin at 5:17 AM on January 18, 2021 [36 favorites]


Sensing a chance at tribal expansion, some on the left are thrilled by the chaos on the right, and they’re eager to seize the moment to banish from polite society not just those who participated and encouraged violence, but anyone with an R next to his or her name.

and

If the GOP is to have a future outside the fever dreams of internet trolls, we have to call out falsehoods and conspiracy theories unequivocally. We have to repudiate people who peddle those lies.

The ball is in your court, assholes.
posted by snofoam at 5:33 AM on January 18, 2021 [11 favorites]


Snopes doesn't help, because the cultists have simply rejected Snopes as part of the conspiracy. More librarians won't help, because the cultists will just reject librarians.

While I think the idea of investing in libraries is laudable and I love it, I am a librarian here to tell you that these people will most definitely reject librarians. I'm a law librarian. I haven't spoken to my mother since 2016. She is deeply Trumpy (very likely has gone full Q but I don't know because of the not speaking), and she has never once believed a word I have to say about politics or reality in general. Her mind was broken by Fox News, then she and her weird racist husband moved away from Fox to "the internet" (probably Breitbart). I tried presenting facts. I tried appealing to emotion. I tried it all. I told her I don't even know how to talk to her if we are living in different realities. None of it made a difference. She hasn't seen or spoken to my son, her grandchild, in four years. I feel like my life is the better for cutting out the toxicity but unfortunately even librarians aren't going to save us.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 5:45 AM on January 18, 2021 [79 favorites]


So sorry to hear that, banjo. There's a lot of that going around. I'm going through the same thing with my father. He isn't really a Trumper or a QAnoner (thankfully), but his conspiracy-theorist tendencies have definitely spiraled out of control over the last several years. I've hardly spoken to him in a year – and I, too, have tried to explain to him that I "don't even know how to talk to [him] if we are living in different realities".

Perhaps this hard for people to understand unless they've experienced it firsthand. Fact and reason are simply useless against a mindset that's based on contempt for fact and reason.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:51 AM on January 18, 2021 [14 favorites]


I tried presenting facts. I tried appealing to emotion. I tried it all.

Did you try telling her that as a librarian you have secret access to the Vatican library and the hidden vaults of the Library of Congress, and you know things that They aren't telling you?

On second thought... that's probably not a good idea.
posted by clawsoon at 5:53 AM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


clawsoon, losing a family member to this stuff is painful. Your joke isn't funny.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:57 AM on January 18, 2021 [9 favorites]


Look! The FBI honeypot is back!
posted by villard at 6:00 AM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


clawsoon, losing a family member to this stuff is painful. Your joke isn't funny.

Point taken. Apologies to banjo_and_the_pork.
posted by clawsoon at 6:01 AM on January 18, 2021 [11 favorites]


No worries, I actually got a giggle out of it. To be honest, it's been a relief to have a good reason to not have to deal with my mother, she is a very unpleasant person and I was causing myself more pain in the years pre-Trump when she was awful and I tried to put up with it. And I have always had a soft spot for the idea of a secret Vatican library.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 6:03 AM on January 18, 2021 [28 favorites]


Re: libraries as part of the solution, this has been on my mind a lot because I shifted careers about a year ago into a public library IT job and as part of it have to ride the reference desk a number of hours per week. (Also as part of it I have first crack at the department's copy of Computers in Libraries magazine each month, which has Jessamyn articles! That was a pleasant surprise!) Being new to professional library culture a few things have stood out to me - the number of people who have extremely basic questions about civics when something related is in the news, and the room we've got for improvement in the computer lab with passive education about fake news and scams.

For the former, I really think the news media has a responsibility to revisit the absolute bare bones basics of civics as part of reporting instead of taking it as read. And there needs to be a big federal budget dumped into basic civics PSA type content in all media.

For the latter, there are a lot of points in the sign-on process in the computer lab where we could intervene with some passive education on avoiding scams and fake news, like a really attention grabbing home page in all browsers as a passive educational tool. Like I really want to entice people to play Harmony Square when they're looking for games to kill time, or to use some vivid tabloidy language about scams in service of good to hook people to read more. Little things, but low-hanging-fruit things that can make a difference in aggregate over time.

Another surprise has been the number of people who call in who are prone to believe sensationalist reporting or Facebook disinformation but do genuinely want help figuring it out. Looots of this around COVID, but also politics in general, and there are people receptive to changing their preconceived notions.

You're not going to get people who are already dug in, but that's not everyone. That's not even every Trump voter. There is room there for education but it's a question of approach.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:04 AM on January 18, 2021 [22 favorites]


Pouteria > Reuters: President Donald Trump may turn to Rudy Giuliani to defend him against possible impeachment over his role in last week’s violent siege of the U.S. Capitol

Karl Rove: Trump More Likely to Be Convicted if Giuliani Defends Him in Impeachment Trial, Slate, Daniel Politi, 1/17/2021:
If President Donald Trump doesn’t want Senate Republicans to join Democrats in voting to convict him in his upcoming second impeachment trial then he better make sure his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani isn’t involved in his defense. That was the message veteran Republican strategist Karl Rove espoused Sunday in which he made clear that Giuliani’s involvement would only increase the chance of a conviction. The warning comes amid reports that Trump is having trouble finding lawyers who will defend him as those who represented him in the first trial aren’t apparently interested in participating in the sequel.

In an appearance on Fox News Sunday, Rove said that it was clear “every Republican senator needs to take this seriously.” Ultimately, he said, “it’s all going to boil down to what the president’s defense is.” Giuliani “charted a very bad course,” noting comments that the president’s attorney said claiming Trump couldn’t have incited the riots at the Capitol because his baseless claims of voter fraud were true....
That’s their story, and they’re sticking to it. At least they’re consistent compulsive liars.
posted by cenoxo at 6:06 AM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


When I found out that non-Jewish German academics in the Nazi era supported the Nazis, my faith was destroyed that education is a reliable method for making people better.

This doesn't mean that there's no hope, just that education isn't the hope and I'm not sure what is.

As nearly as I can figure it out, education teaches knowledge and skills to some extent, and it teaches compliance. Compassion, ethics, and good sense come from something else-- I think it's a combination of instincts (personality?) and example.

I have an untestable theory that what we're seeing is a consequence of generations of conventional schooling, and conventional schooling is about everything that's supposed to be important being simulated. You get graded on the writing the teacher wants to see, not on communicating something you want someone to understand. Math is disconnected from getting things to work. Some degree of simulation is needed for people to learn things, but I think people also need to be connected to actions and consequences.

It's at least an explanation for the frivolousness of the Capitol rioters. They didn't seem to understand that they needed to have something specific in mind. Just as well for the rest of us that they weren't serious revolutionaries, but it's spooky that they were so clueless.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:14 AM on January 18, 2021 [12 favorites]


Some footage from inside the Capitol I hadn't seen before, from New Yorker reporter Luke Mogelson.
posted by Mchelly at 6:17 AM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


When I found out that non-Jewish German academics in the Nazi era supported the Nazis, my faith was destroyed that education is a reliable method for making people better.

My impression, and I could be wrong, is that many of the elements of German racial "science" were developed in the Germany university system, at the same time that Anglo universities were developing eugenic "science" and anthropologists everywhere were discussing the curious habits and features of the "lesser races".
posted by clawsoon at 6:50 AM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]




For the most part, people already have access to the same information that we do. As ChurchHatesTucker said, those who are "so inclined" to entertain fact and reason have plenty of sources to choose from. But Trumpists and QAnoners are not so inclined. They have chosen to reject sources which challenge their prejudices.

I think to some extent this is universal. The media often gets things wrong; that's normal. And every media outlet has some degree of bias; that's also normal. And most of us forgive the things they get wrong when we know they're wrong (or write / tweet to the editor) because we know that reliable outlets have some sort of ombudsmen and often (I wish always) correct the record. Then we address bias by choosing the media that best suits our worldview. Even in countries without a free press, there's usually more than one choice of news outlets, so people can "trust" one over another. But as more and more American news outlets are owned by fewer people (not even people - it's more often corporations now) who share the same basic pro-oligarchy, pro-corporation, and pro-status quo worldview, it's become far easier for everyone - not just republicans - to lack faith in the mainstream media. The number of anti-NYT posters here is considerable, for example.

So I don't think people are moving away from a fact-based reality toward conspiracies because they reject reality. They just see the same news pieces that show things they don't want to see, framed in the same way, from news organizations that everyone agrees need to be trusted warily. So if you can't trust the mainstream, all you have left is what you can cobble together from the internet, usually sent to you by someone you trust. Social media (especially fake accounts spewing out and amplifying fake news and the facebook algorithms that push them) makes that even easier. So when we all know fake news exists, and you hear a President that you trust dismiss facts as "fake news," you have to seek out other sources if you care about being informed. If you're already not trained in how to recognize actual sourced journalism, all you have to go with is your gut - again, bolstered by the gut-feelings of other people (and bots who you think are people) that you trust.

The sickest thing that FOX News did, in my opinion, was launching with the tag line "fair and balanced" when their entire news model was always intended to be neither. It moved the goalposts to where people could pretend they were watching a normal, mainstream journalistic outlet while still only seeing what they wanted to see and never having their biases challenged. So where "mainstream media" used to mean national news outlets that could be trusted, because they wouldn't deviate far from the main stream of verifiable journalism, it now became synonymous with "national news organization that you can find anywhere in the US with basic cable." The people flocking to OAN and Newsmax now are the same types of people who chose FOX over CNN back in the day. They've just redefined all media as liberal-biased, and prefer to have none of it. At least partly because, as Steven Colbert pointed out years and years ago, "reality has a well-known liberal bias.". So if some of the news they're getting is outright made up, they have no way to verify it because 1) it tells them what they believe in their gut to be true, and 2) they genuinely believe they're already looking at a respected, fact-checked source. What's a library going to have except more of the same stuff that the New York Times has? Everybody has already been well taught that you can spin statistics any way you want, and that nothing is really knowable. I think it's telling that a lot of us mourn the fact that there isn't a similar nakedly-biased liberal news network that could counter FOX. We've already accepted that the facts don't matter as much as how you spin them so they hit people's gut. Once you've rejected everything with a veneer of mainstream respectability (as defined by universally agreeing on the same set of facts) as spin, all you're left with are the conspiracy wormholes.
posted by Mchelly at 7:28 AM on January 18, 2021 [22 favorites]


The sickest thing that FOX News did, in my opinion, was launching with the tag line "fair and balanced" when their entire news model was always intended to be neither.

Oh my god yes. And I strongly suspect that's when the rest of the media, being totally obtuse about the game being played there and the reality of what the Fox audience wanted, went full-on Both Sides in an attempt to compete for viewers thinking it really was all about some kind of neutral objectivity and how DARE this new upstart network cast aspersions on the balance of OUR reporting, we'll show them...
posted by jason_steakums at 7:47 AM on January 18, 2021 [17 favorites]


> From Jonathan Karl @ ABC news: Rudy Giuliani now says he won’t on the Trump impeachment defense team. “Because I gave an earlier speech [at the January 6 Trump rally], I am a witness and therefore unable to participate in court or Senate chamber,” he tells me.

"Witness" is an interesting choice of synonym for "participant" there.
posted by at by at 7:51 AM on January 18, 2021 [27 favorites]



When I found out that non-Jewish German academics in the Nazi era supported the Nazis, my faith was destroyed that education is a reliable method for making people better.


I had a professor in college that was strict Catholic. He justified premarital sex as "mutual masturbation". I think he also equated condoms with Mutually Assured Destruction. These were both published articles.

Knowledge does not equal wisdom.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:52 AM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


“Because I gave an earlier speech [at the January 6 Trump rally], I am a witness and therefore unable to participate in court or Senate chamber,”

Is that actually a thing? I can see it not being a good idea, much like representing yourself, but is it a rule?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:55 AM on January 18, 2021


clawson:

"My impression, and I could be wrong, is that many of the elements of German racial "science" were developed in the Germany university system, at the same time that Anglo universities were developing eugenic "science" and anthropologists everywhere were discussing the curious habits and features of the "lesser races"."

I think you're right, but I also believe there's a difference between having a bad idea vs. following it over the edge to mass murder.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:58 AM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


to avoid edit...

a condom was killing multiple lives, thus mass murder. but... pulling out was okay? I find his views to be inconsistent.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:58 AM on January 18, 2021 [1 favorite]


Knowledge does not equal wisdom.

If there's one thing I hope that people take to heart after all this is that facts, rationality, and knowledge are not cure alls. We are beings of emotion, with occasional slivers of rationality.

Knowledge and learning is still good and useful, but emotion decides how most of humanity sees the world. We would cheerfully, readily, cut off our noses to spite our faces and we would encourage family and friends to do the same.

You're gonna have to talk and/or connect with people on some emotional level in order to convince them of your cause.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:01 AM on January 18, 2021 [9 favorites]


Rudy's choice of the word 'witness' to describe his behavior on January 6 kinda obscures that whole 'trial by combat' thing--guess the Game of Thrones excuse isn't getting any more traction than 'gravy trains.'
posted by box at 8:06 AM on January 18, 2021


The digital brand manager for Steak-Umm retweeted this set of links in a Queens University scholar's smart QAnon reading list. (And yes, every part of that sentence is something I could never have imagined typing a year ago.)
posted by PhineasGage at 8:07 AM on January 18, 2021 [19 favorites]


It's interesting (if not surprising) that parts of the right wing are so freaked out by critical theory, which got its start after WWII with the question, "More knowledge was supposed to make the world better, so why the hell did that just happen?"
posted by clawsoon at 8:09 AM on January 18, 2021 [6 favorites]


The problem isn't that we don't have enough factual and reasonable sources of information. We are overflowing with those. A person could spend 24 hours a day immersed in factual and reasonable sources, and still have enough left over to do it thousand more times, if they're so inclined.

I'm going to have to disagree here. We are absolutely not awash with trustable factual and reasonable sources of information and that is a huge part of our current problem. The largest news organizations in the United States sold their souls a long time ago and their histories of active disinformation are part of the problem. Republicans can comfortably reject media sources like the New York Times because they themselves have recently used the New York Times for partisan objectives to spin up fabricated claims for two multi-trillion dollar wars in the Middle East while imposing austerity at home and everybody on the left was screaming about this. Now the Right uses the existence of those deceptions to inoculate their members against everything the New York Times says that doesn't fit their agenda.

The pandemic highlights just how bad the information situation was and is. Even the CDC ended up politicized. We didn't need masks, they wouldn't help......then gradually they did. Flight bans wouldn't work the experts said....then they did in New Zealand and other countries. Aerosols versus droplets....it goes on and on. Lockdown fatigue was a big media story before we were even in even a partial lockdown! And don't tell me it was changing data. The data was there very quickly. There were agendas, denials, group think and xenophobic blindspots even in the supposedly credible media. It's still ongoing with the in-person school opening movement. These are all human failings for sure but there has been so very little reflection about the failings. We are in denial of our denial and trying to bolster trust in the media and experts not by improving them but by bulldozing over any inconvenient details about inaccuracy like parents trying for one more year of their children believing in Santa Claus by shushing anyone who brings up reality.

There is a big push for some sort of politicized team-play consensus about things we consider allies right now and that is in my opinion a huge mistake. One of the problems with things like Q-Anon and the right wing insurgency attacking the capital is that there are slivers of truth in some of their complaints. When a 'paper of record' records falsity as fact or spins news to partisan ends it is damaging to both sides. The effects can be immediate to the side they oppose but it is also corrosive to the side they support. The United States has had a huge problem with apparently state sanctioned pedophilia and sexual assault. It's not Hillary Clinton and a risotto recipe in a pizza parlor's non-existent basement but Jeffery Epstein absolutely did happen. Many of his co-conspirators and allies do appear to be getting away with it. It is not really reflected in the "credible" major media (though it is in the tabloids - which perversely gives these egregious generators of falsehoods credibility!). Are the upper middle class Trump supporters at risk of losing their relative status? Yes they are. Everyone in the middle class is slipping under. They may not be the ones drowning yet and falling out of the middle class but they can see the tide rising. When Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk makes another couple of billion they understand that is less "makes" and more accurately "takes". Their enemies and solutions are in my opinion wrong but their situational assessment is not entirely incorrect. Are American elections in great shape? No they absolutely are not. In 2016 there was massive documented foreign interference, a tidal wave of dark and illegal money and all kinds election crime. In 2020 there probably was as well but we can't currently even broach the thought because we so desperately need to believe the result is legitimate and have it recognized as legitimate. I'm not saying it isn't legit but I frankly don't trust any of the sources and have no idea how I could even assess it for myself.

And I am not even touching on the incredibly damaging problem of unfact checked extremely low quality editorials that most newspaper readers do not distinguish from the papers themselves which further erodes their credibility and putative objectivity.

There are papers and sources I trust more than others but there are precisely zero that I trust completely and that makes life really difficult.
posted by srboisvert at 8:17 AM on January 18, 2021 [22 favorites]


Is that actually a thing? I can see it not being a good idea, much like representing yourself, but is it a rule?

Yes, there is a rule about this:
(a) A lawyer shall not act as advocate at a trial in which the lawyer is likely to be a necessary witness except where [three exceptions that don't apply here]
posted by jedicus at 8:19 AM on January 18, 2021 [10 favorites]


Rudy's choice of the word 'witness' to describe his behavior on January 6 kinda obscures that whole 'trial by combat' thing

"Witness," "codefendant," "poTAYto," "poTAHto"
posted by MrGuilt at 8:21 AM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]




QAnon believers and the whole Q thing is not a new phenomenon among human beings, uniquely caused by mass communication technologies, or newer systems like mass schooling, etc.; this is human beings just being humans, this is kind of a thing that we do, and have done, throughout our history. What's new this time is the degree and pervasiveness of mass hysteria/conspiracy theories/etc., but the Q phenomenon is playing on ancient human psychology and brain structures.

This is what all the "new media" theorists have been warning about for decades, not that this is all completely new but that the degree and capabilities of our newest sets of communication tools are particularly effective and widespread, and that the danger is tipping over into a place in our minds where imaginary worlds, as fed by immersive communication media, are more real to us than the actual world of objective, material, consensus reality: a state of "hyperreality".

QAnon believers are living in a state of hyperreality that is constantly reinforced through multiple communication modes, in a never-ending flood of sensory and cognitive wash. They are disoriented and confused, and their rational minds have been by-passed. We really need to start listening to experts in deprogramming and (believe it or not) postmodern human communication & media, to start to figure out how to un-create the world we've stumbled into. (Otherwise, it's all separate tribes living in their own realities.)
posted by LooseFilter at 8:28 AM on January 18, 2021 [16 favorites]


Court Doc: FBI Investigating Whether Capitol Rioter Tried To Sell Pelosi Laptop To Russia
The detail about the computer from Pelosi’s office was noted in an FBI agent’s statement of facts in support of the criminal complaint against Riley June Williams. The charges were filed in federal court on Sunday.

The laptop claim came from an unidentified former romantic partner of Williams’, who is referred to as W1 in the court document and who allegedly called the FBI tip line after the attack.

...

“According to W1, the transfer of the computer device to Russia fell through for unknown reasons and WILLIAMS still has the computer device or destroyed it,” the agent continued. “The matter remains under investigation.”
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:09 AM on January 18, 2021 [22 favorites]


Not to do too much of a derail into the history of Anthropology, I'm just going to link to a book review (New Yorker) that gives a pretty good summary on the revolution that took place in Anthropology, particularly American anthropology, in the early 20th century (Nineteen teens and Nineteen twenties), sparked by Franz Boas and his disciples. I will just add it is not a coincidence that Boas's books were among those burned by the Nazis (and it was not just because he was Jewish).
posted by gudrun at 9:15 AM on January 18, 2021 [7 favorites]


MLK: ‘If we are not careful, our colleges will produce … close-minded, unscientific, illogical propagandists’ (WaPo)

My ex was a fan of conspiracy theories, and probably a racist in the 1980s and -90s. He was also the person who introduced me to Marshall McLuhan. Knowledge does not equal wisdom, indeed.
The thing is, and I obviously didn't learn much from that experience, I thought the whole conspiracy thing was a hilarious joke. I didn't imagine one minute that he was serious about it. I remember my granddad being frightened by it and reacting by giving us a copy of At the Sign of the Reine Pédauque, which make me laugh even more and my ex descend even deeper into his world of paranoia.

The point is, this has always been a part of modern life, since it began being modern during the renaissance. All that time, the media have played their role in the dissemination of crazy stuff, and managing that is a challenge. Unfortunately, all the postive examples I can think of, where societies have managed to turn away from hatred and disinformation, are after the catastrophes. After the religious wars, after the genocides, after the revolutions. And sometimes there is no turn.
posted by mumimor at 9:16 AM on January 18, 2021 [6 favorites]


On the Qanon front, don't think I've seen the Q Clearance: The Hunt For Qanon podcast mentioned in these threads.

It's a dive into the background of Qanon, and looking at assessing the different theories about who was behind the account at the start and now. Settles on the Watkins family as likely suspects, and it's handled in a straightforward way which may be useful for anyone with a family member who's been sucked down the rabbit hole.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:51 AM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


Yeah everything's already set in stone, etc, but part of me really wishes that the Biden inauguration could have been moved up to MLK Jr. Day just to watch the Trumpists' heads explode. (Though unfortunately, at this point that would probably end up being the equivalent of throwing a few boxes of grenades into the fire and would probably turn MLK Jr. Day into their White Liberation Day or some such bullshit).
posted by gtrwolf at 9:55 AM on January 18, 2021


For the most part, people already have access to the same information that we do.

Just because someone could theoretically access legitimate sources doesn't mean they are able to discover them, and there are plenty of people for whom the entirety of the internet consists of Facebook, YouTube, and Amazon, just as there are people whose broadcast media consumption is limited to AM radio and Fox News (probably some overlap between those groups).

This may be predicated on personal choices and willful ignorance to some degree, but I assume that the Trumpies, like most of us, actually learned about many of the sources they rely on from friends, school, community, and/or work, and that at least part of the difference is having most of those influences come from a similar regressive worldview. Foucault's idea about multiple epistemes I guess.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:24 AM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


My ex was a fan of conspiracy theories ... I didn't imagine one minute that he was serious about it.

Back in the 90s, I was friends – and, for a few months, roommates – with a guy who was into conspiracy theories.

It didn't seem like he took it very seriously – it seemed like kind of a hobby, a fun thing to read and daydream about. The same way that some people were into UFO lore at the time.

He was broadly left-leaning – or, at least, anti-establishment. I remember that he was into Alex Jones, back when Alex Jones was just generally nutty rather than hard right wing. He was also really into DIY media stuff, especially radio – he hosted a show on the local college station, and we were both involved with the same band and record label.

Over the years, he started to take the conspiracy stuff more and more seriously. It finally got to a point where I couldn't talk to him anymore, so I just let the friendship die on the vine. His girlfriend, too, got sucked into it. I haven't spoken to either of them in years.

Last time I checked, he was still running his own DIY media efforts, primarily conspiracy podcast stuff. I listened to a bit, and I couldn't even make sense of what he was talking about. It was pretty depressing to hear. I don't know how his politics have changed, if at all.

Very shortly after the attack on the Capitol, he flipped out on a mutual friend – out of the blue – and basically ended their friendship. (Apparently the mutual friend has "sold out to the military-industrial complex" because he has an office job.)

The mutual friend talked to some other people in this guy's life, and apparently there's concern that he's having a psychotic break.

But, yeah. I think sometimes people start out treating conspiracies as a hobby, and eventually get sucked into something darker.

Dude also smoked a lot of weed back in the day. Some people just shouldn't smoke weed.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:26 AM on January 18, 2021 [9 favorites]


Doesn't the fact that a woman of color will be next in the line of succession if anything happens to Joe Biden make the misogynistic racists of the radical right less likely to wish him harm, or are they so around the bend they don't even realize this?
posted by PhineasGage at 10:26 AM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


Also I feel like comparing Snopes to a librarian is kinda like comparing Lawfare blog to a lawyer? Except even more reductive. Way to write off an entire historically underpaid and quite gendered profession.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:28 AM on January 18, 2021 [23 favorites]


I just watched the final episode of last month's documentary television series I mention above While the Rest of Us Die (cw: American military occupying Iraq and in combat with people resisting; US-cable-provider-locked unfortunately; original theme of series is continuity of government planning, the sort of stuff that took Congress members to undisclosed locations on January 6) which concerns some stuff related to the aftermath of 9/11—including the invasion of Iraq—and the events of 2020.

I realized, one of the reasons that the January 6 Putschisten were so foolhardy is that they believed something like, “we will be welcomed as liberators.”
posted by XMLicious at 10:36 AM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


Knowledge is not the silver bullet. It doesn't matter what people know. There are plenty of conservative think-tank dwellers who are hyper-intelligent and have tons of knowledge at their fingertips. What they lack is EMPATHY. Over and over, we see that conservatives change their views on a given topic only when it affects them personally. Whatever happened in their upbringing, they didn't learn to have empathy for people whose experiences didn't match their own. I don't know how you teach that in schools, but it seems like if our educational system put more emphasis on emotional intelligence we'd be in a very different place today.
posted by wabbittwax at 10:47 AM on January 18, 2021 [48 favorites]


Doesn't the fact that a woman of color will be next in the line of succession if anything happens to Joe Biden make the misogynistic racists of the radical right less likely to wish him harm, or are they so around the bend they don't even realize this?

Trying to think logically about an emotional issue will only confuse and frustrate a person.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:48 AM on January 18, 2021 [9 favorites]


He was broadly left-leaning – or, at least, anti-establishment.

It feels like there was a melding of parts of the left and the establishment sometime between Obama's second term and Clinton's campaign (never would I have expected to read so many positive things about the FBI on Metafilter, for example), and part of what we're seeing is people who were more committed to the anti-establishment-ism than the leftism going over to Trump.
posted by clawsoon at 10:53 AM on January 18, 2021 [10 favorites]


Phineas Gage: Doesn't the fact that a woman of color will be next in the line of succession if anything happens to Joe Biden make the misogynistic racists of the radical right less likely to wish him harm, or are they so around the bend they don't even realize this?

Not even a little. Joe Biden won't be the President; Donald Trump will be. They've had surgery to switch faces. Also Donald Trump is a clone. And a hologram. Or Donald Trump is going to be the President of the real United States and Biden will be president of the failed United States.

All of these things (and more) have been stated as fact by QAnon leaders and are believed by the core QAnon audience.

Harris taking over if Biden is removed is not one of their problems, multitudinous though they be.
posted by tzikeh at 11:02 AM on January 18, 2021 [8 favorites]


I don't know how you teach that in schools, but it seems like if our educational system put more emphasis on emotional intelligence we'd be in a very different place today.

The standard school systems in the US, public and private, work very hard to erode empathy. Cooperative learning isn't allowed except in very restricted situations; communication is restricted and actively banned between students more than a few years apart; groups of friends are often separated; many classes make the higher grades a competitive zero-sum game.

Schools work very, very hard to promote individualism and block children's natural tendencies to make friends and help each other.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:03 AM on January 18, 2021 [13 favorites]


What they lack is EMPATHY.

A lot of the people who get caught up in Q nonsense seem to be the opposite. They genuinely have an emotional connection to the children they believe are victims of the Illuminati cabal. People who are already emotionally invested in stories about children coming to harm seem to have become one of the big pools of folks prone to being drawn into it.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:04 AM on January 18, 2021 [8 favorites]


Everyone is primed to direct their empathy one way or another. Nobody on This Site spends time being empathetic toward Jeff Bezos or Trump Jr. Q folks have directed their empathy toward children they've decided are abused by a satanic cabal. This empathy drives their revulsion and raw hatred of anyone deemed to be part of the cabal.

I think everyone does this to one extent or another. The suffering of Trump's victims means we don't feel much or any empathy toward the perpetrators- fuck them, right? The Q people have amped that up to 11 to the point that they are certain that the satanic cabal are barely human at all.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:11 AM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


Per CNN they are officially vetting National Guard members to make sure there are no insider threats for the inauguration.

This is why we were so upset when Trump was elected. This is why we wanted the impeachment. If you are still supporting this treasonous asshole, this is why I haven't spoken to you since Jan 6th.
posted by nicoffeine at 11:14 AM on January 18, 2021 [24 favorites]


In meaningless but symbolic news, this spectacular capsize happened to a yacht named Patriot from the American Magic team competing for a spot in the America's Cup races.

Not a good week for people who like to call themselves "patriots".
posted by clawsoon at 11:22 AM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


What they lack is EMPATHY. [...] I don't know how you teach that in schools, but it seems like if our educational system put more emphasis on emotional intelligence we'd be in a very different place today.

I'm not free to dig up a link at the moment, but some time in the past couple of years I heard an NPR story about a pilot program being run in several countries that involved measuring a kindergarten class on objective levels of empathy and trying to improve it.

After they took the baseline, they'd bring in a parent with an infant; the parent would make a short presentation to the class about how they loved their child and the practical things they did to take care of the child, followed by a Q&A session where the kids could ask any questions they wanted about the parent–child relationship. The reporting said that signs were good that this improved average objective measures of empathy in the kindergarten class.

Like I said above, I'm not against funding and rebuilding education and reality-based media and institutions, it just seems clear to me that we need radically different, varied approaches like the above, concertedly trying to educate for empathy as others are advocating—beyond just bringing the teacher an apple or something—because our current problems are radically different in both scale and nature from those of the past.
posted by XMLicious at 11:34 AM on January 18, 2021 [8 favorites]


That's probably the Roots of Empathy program. It's used in the schools in my district (near Seattle).

> Cooperative learning isn't allowed except in very restricted situations;

Eh? School these days is lousy with group projects.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:42 AM on January 18, 2021 [14 favorites]


The standard school systems in the US, public and private, work very hard to erode empathy. Cooperative learning isn't allowed except in very restricted situations; communication is restricted and actively banned between students more than a few years apart; groups of friends are often separated; many classes make the higher grades a competitive zero-sum game.

Schools work very, very hard to promote individualism and block children's natural tendencies to make friends and help each other.


Hmm. As someone who works as an SLP in life skills classrooms across several public schools, my direct experience is that every word of that is incorrect. Each teacher I work with directly and deliberately teaches emotional intelligence and empathy on a daily basis, and we all work to help promote friendships. Granted, this is a sample size of <10 classrooms, and there certainly are problems with the US educational system, but spouting off overgeneral and unsubstantiated claims like this ignores the very hard work put in by our teachers, and does nothing to help our school systems.
posted by DingoMutt at 11:43 AM on January 18, 2021 [36 favorites]


I just watched the final episode of last month's documentary television series I mention above While the Rest of Us Die (cw: American military occupying Iraq and in combat with people resisting; US-cable-provider-locked unfortunately; original theme of series is continuity of government planning, the sort of stuff that took Congress members to undisclosed locations on January 6)

You can rent on Prime Video, Google Play or Vudu for $2 in the U.S.
posted by srboisvert at 11:46 AM on January 18, 2021


Eh? School these days is lousy with group projects.

Each teacher I work with directly and deliberately teaches emotional intelligence and empathy on a daily basis

To make a probably-half-baked connection, this would actually fit with the increasing liberalism of American youth.
posted by clawsoon at 11:49 AM on January 18, 2021 [6 favorites]


A lot of the people who get caught up in Q nonsense seem to be the opposite. They genuinely have an emotional connection to the children they believe are victims of the Illuminati cabal. People who are already emotionally invested in stories about children coming to harm seem to have become one of the big pools of folks prone to being drawn into it.

A lot lynchings in the United States were ostensibly to defend/restore the honor of victimized white women. The malevolent weaponization of the empathy of gullible people is not a new thing at all. The first gulf war had senate hearings about Iraq soldiers throwing premature babies out of incubators (completely false and also one of the biggest media and politician complicit 'Tail Wagging the Dog' lies in recent times). "Think of the children" is a routinely mocked but still widely effective and widely used rhetorical ploy.
posted by srboisvert at 11:54 AM on January 18, 2021 [32 favorites]


The scariest thing to me about all this QAnon stuff is that the more elected officials parrot Q stories, the more average people who hadn't previously been into conspiracy theories are going to believe them.

How many people read that batshit letter from the Nye County GOP chairman (which has since been removed) about "what will happen" and thought that despite how crazy it sounded, it actually might happen, because otherwise why in the world would someone in that guy's position be saying shit that crazy and specific?
posted by wondermouse at 12:15 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


I'm not knocking the teachers, many of whom are doing the best they can with the structure they're stuck with. They are trying to teach empathy, respect for diversity, and community bonds. They're hampered by a system that's designed to interfere with pretty much every aspect of how humans do community.

If schools promoted friendships and communications, the desks wouldn't be arranged in neat rows. (There might not be desks at all.) If they taught how to be part of a community, classes wouldn't all be age-segregated. If they were about intellectual merit, grades wouldn't be age-based. If the goal were for the teacher to reach every student, class sizes would stop at about 20 by law, and most of them would be 10-15 students. And teachers are sharply limited in what they can do to stop bullying.

Bringing it back to politics: once the weird artificial structure of school is removed, a lot of people have no idea how to decide which authorities can be trusted, because school pushes the idea that whoever's at the front of the room is absolutely right, and anything your peers tell you is suspect. Even when the teachers aren't directly promoting that, they can't get away from it entirely. And knowing that's not true doesn't help the students figure out what is, after they graduate.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:22 PM on January 18, 2021 [13 favorites]


Yeah, but there's still no solution to "I'm forced to do group projects with slackers who won't do shit."
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:26 PM on January 18, 2021 [11 favorites]


Re: Ben Sasse - sure, he's a hypocritical shithead. But plenty of shitheads have turned their lives around. Never trust him, never think he's going to turn into a liberal Democrat, but it is plausible that he could have told himself he's no longer going to be silent or an active accomplice while Trumpists destroy the country and its democracy.

Thing is, rhetoric matters. You can't on the one hand denounce all the QAnon and incitement stuff and then say Sasse is doing nothing. He's helping. For now, with words. If his actions match his words, that's even better.

They've had surgery to switch faces.

I've seen that too. That doesn't even make a little bit of sense. Not to fat shame, but Donald Trump's body does not look even the slightest bit like Joe Biden's. I could tell them apart with hoods on. What, are they going to swap voices and speaking patterns, too? That is clearly not going to be Donald Trump with a Joe Biden face mask on.
posted by ctmf at 12:28 PM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


Metafilter: Group projects with... (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
posted by PhineasGage at 12:28 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


Does anyone else feel like they're waiting for the other shoe to drop?

It's a weird combination of quiet calm from the Twitter/social media ban, and the upcoming events. I'm trying to get some work done now because I know I won't on Wednesday. How early can I start drinking?
posted by Dashy at 12:31 PM on January 18, 2021 [20 favorites]


The right doesn't trust Snopes. I've been told to "fact check my fact check"

the line I've gotten more than once is, "Who's fact checking the fact checkers?" The quick and accurate answer, of course, is "Other fact checkers." But that's logical, thus immaterial in such a conversation.
posted by philip-random at 12:35 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


That is clearly not going to be Donald Trump with a Joe Biden face mask on.

You know that, and I know that, but what about the most unhinged Q cultist? Convince them that Face/Off is a documentary, and Donald Trump is in the White House, and don't be alarmed by any liberal laws he passes because it's all part of the plan, and just sit tight and stay calm and support everything he does and vote for every candidate he endorses until he gives the signal* on live television...

* The signal, of course, being the verbatim statement "The principalities of Ermintrude are quintessentially garnished with a velveteen sombrero henceforth Belvedere." Under no circumstances should you take any action, direct or indirect, until you hear him say those words.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:39 PM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


I feel like comparing Snopes to a librarian is kinda like comparing Lawfare blog to a lawyer?

Nobody equated the two. The point, as others have elaborated, is that people who won't consult or trust one* are unlikely to avail themselves of the other.

(*or rather many, hence "Snopes et al.", that is "Snopes and others.")
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:43 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


They genuinely have an emotional connection to the children they believe are victims of the Illuminati cabal. People who are already emotionally invested in stories about children coming to harm seem to have become one of the big pools of folks prone to being drawn into it.

I can't help but wonder if the Q folk are actually motivated by empathy towards children so much as they are motivated by the symbolic idea of children.

What I mean is: if they were genuinely motivated by child endangerment and abuse, there are plenty of real-world places where they could direct that energy. But they're not looking to help children, they're looking to find a reason to hate liberal elites. And there could be any one of a number of other reasons they could point to in order to nurse their grudge - but only pedophilia feels sufficiently "evil". So I have a hunch it isn't so much about "I liked Tom Hanks but then I learned he harvests children's spleens for his hair dye and that turned me off" or whatever, it's more like "man, I hate that smarmy Tom Hanks, it TOTALLY makes sense that harvesting children's spleens would be something that fucker would do". An ACTUAL kid showing up with an ACTUAL complaint about someone less prominently placed would probably be ignored because "it wasn't Tom Hanks who did it". And I'm not so sure that that's empathy.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:49 PM on January 18, 2021 [76 favorites]


if they were genuinely motivated by child endangerment and abuse, there are plenty of real-world places where they could direct that energy.

They're the worst kind of slacktivists.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:52 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


Fully agree, EmpressCallipygos. It's a fig leaf of empathy hung upon a pre existing package of hatreds and resentments. It's no accident that "the Storm" is supposed to roll up everyone that their Turner Diaries fantasies already had them angry with. If protecting and helping kids was their real intention, they have other options.

The Joe Biden Face/Off theory is as laughable as the rest of their belief structure. But, if it provides an ego-safe off ramp for some Q-causuals to stop awaiting orders from a malignant fuck like Trump, I'm fine with it for now. Long term though, I don't want to keep indulging these delusions, because too many are too committed to seeing their most violent fantasies realized, and the shit-stupid ridiculousness of their alternate reality is ultimately camouflage for some very real aspirations to atrocity.
posted by EatTheWeek at 12:59 PM on January 18, 2021 [8 favorites]


Anyone have thoughts on the role of American churches in all this? The people I know who are empathetic and caring in real life, and also Trump supporters, get their takes on the news from church.
posted by clawsoon at 1:01 PM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


What I mean is: if they were genuinely motivated by child endangerment and abuse, there are plenty of real-world places where they could direct that energy.

I think there was an FPP some months back, or perhaps it was just links in a larger thread, reporting how organizations focused on protecting children from real endangerment and abuse are seeing drops in donations/engagement, which they attributed at least in part to some of the people who had been supporting them redirecting their support to QAnon conspiracy theorists instead.
posted by biogeo at 1:07 PM on January 18, 2021 [8 favorites]


Clawsoon, there was this recent NYT article: Trump Ignites a War Within the Church.

My stepmom and I were talking about that article, and I said something like, "You'd think all those people in the church would have figured it out back when he talked about grabbing women by the pussy."

And her reply was interesting. She said, "The churches are run overwhelmingly by men, and the men who run them often don't consider that kind of treatment to be a terrible thing. To be a member of churches like that, you have to be willing to submit to some level of male authority or domination - so lots of religious people are already a half step towards being able to discount things like that."
posted by Chanther at 1:15 PM on January 18, 2021 [37 favorites]


empathetic and caring in real life, and also Trump supporters

I routinely see people saying things like this, and I have no idea what y'all think "empathetic and caring" means.

Trump supporters are, by definition, morally corrupt people, even if they manage to come across as folksy and pleasant some of the time.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:18 PM on January 18, 2021 [20 favorites]


I routinely see people saying things like this, and I have no idea what y'all think "empathetic and caring" means.

In the cases I'm thinking of, people who believe that Jesus meant what he said about serving the poor and who've done a lot more of that than I ever have or probably ever will.
posted by clawsoon at 1:27 PM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


People are lots of things, but consistent isn’t one of them.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 1:34 PM on January 18, 2021 [11 favorites]


I think that there's a false dichotomy in this discussion. It's not a question of whether the problem that has led us to this point is a lack of information, or a lack of critical thinking, or a lack of education, or a lack of empathy, or whatever. It's all of these things. All of these are necessary for the proper functioning of a democratic civil society, and none of them are sufficient. We've seen a breakdown of many of these factors in our society, and different people we can point to as exemplars of "what's wrong with society" exhibit different clusters of problems. Some people lack empathy, but that's not most people. More people selectively fail to engage their empathy due to dehumanization, which itself can be due to a variety of causes (but in America is often racism). Some people have false beliefs about the nature of their government and other social forces that impact their daily lives. Some people subscribe to illiberal or antisocial value systems. Some people have strong but maladaptive emotional responses caused by their own personal traumas that limit their ability to trust others in a society and make them more receptive to certain kinds of conspiracy thinking.

There's not one single cure for what ails our society, just as there's not one single cure for cancer. Because just as we've learned that cancer isn't a single disease but rather many different diseases with certain commonalities, I think we need to recognize that Trumpism (standing as a convenient label for the broader set of social and political ills that actually long predate Trump but which are especially obvious now thanks to his presidency) is actually many different problems. People are drawn to Trumpism for many different reasons, and what's needed to pull them back, or to prevent others from joining them, or even perhaps to determine who is and who isn't a lost cause that we shouldn't even try to pull back, is going to vary from individual to individual.

If the Democrats are able to do anything to repair our civil society, it's going to have to take the form of pursuing lots of different avenues at once. We need better social services to relieve people of economic anxiety (the genuine kind, not the kind that's just a thin code for racism). We need racial justice and police reform. We need lifelong civics education. We need a demonstrated track record of government working to improve people's lives, and for this track record to be properly advertised. And I think a significant problem we need to guard against is our tendency to form circular firing squads over our varying priorities, because all of these things have to happen in parallel.
posted by biogeo at 1:36 PM on January 18, 2021 [41 favorites]


I'll note that I also know Trump supporters who don't fit that description - the raw juice guy, the "independent" who says that Trump is not racist at all, etc. - but the ones I know who are genuinely kind, and also positive on Trump, get their news from church-based sources.

Like... one of them posted a video in 2016 with a pastor asking which family you'd rather go on vacation with, Clinton's or Trump's? And the whole video was about what a horrible person Clinton was, with nary a mention of Trump's personal life other than one of his sons said "thank you" once (or something like that) and that's how you know what a good family man Trump is. I suspect that they have never heard "grab 'em by the". (I was reading an article the other day which mentioned someone who hadn't heard that until 2018, when they were asked about it by the person writing the article.)

Hmm... maybe I should ask them.
posted by clawsoon at 1:40 PM on January 18, 2021 [7 favorites]


Knowledge is not the silver bullet. It doesn't matter what people know.

Information is
not knowledge
Knowledge is
not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is THE BEST...

Wisdom is the domain
of the Wis
(which is extinct).
Beauty is a French
phonetic corruption
Of a short cloth
neck ornament
Currently in
resurgence...
posted by mikelieman at 1:58 PM on January 18, 2021 [6 favorites]


Anyone have thoughts on the role of American churches in all this?

Depends - are we talking proper churches, or "prosperity Gospel" mega-churches?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:59 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]



My stepmom and I were talking about that article, and I said something like, "You'd think all those people in the church would have figured it out back when he talked about grabbing women by the pussy."



Comments like this really show the gulf between the churchgoing population and Mefites. The issue with Trump isn't that he's corrupt and sinful. It's that his entire career has been about selling the fantasy of being him, and in so doing bringing other people down to his level. THAT is something you can point out to an Evangelical and force him to admit you have a point.
posted by ocschwar at 2:04 PM on January 18, 2021


Anyone have thoughts on the role of American churches in all this?

Charismatic leader who speaks the Truth, any who oppose [H]im are unworthy heathens who, if they can't be converted, must be destroyed, anything [H]e says can easily be twisted to support whatever the "believer" would like it to support....

I mean, I'm not the first to point this out.
posted by tzikeh at 2:10 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


How many Americans believe that the earth is 6000 years old, and how many of them are Trump supporters? And how much overlap is there?

I grew up believing that, because the church I grew up in was effective at convincing us that anyone who said differently was evil and was trying to poison our minds and we shouldn't even debate them, we should just stay away from the evil.
posted by clawsoon at 2:18 PM on January 18, 2021 [9 favorites]


Anyone have thoughts on the role of American churches in all this?
upthread
The Dominionism movement is stamped all over this. As far as the taxman is concerned all these prosperity gospel movements count as churches. Rabid Evangelism is like a plague of boils and they need to be lanced.
How self-proclaimed ‘prophets’ from a growing Christian movement provided religious motivation for the Jan. 6 events at the US Capitol.
Seven Mountain Prophecy.
Charismatic, Pentecostal and Evangelical Christians are among President Trump’s most devoted supporters. And he knows this.
He won 81 per cent of their vote in 2016.
See previously.
posted by adamvasco at 2:26 PM on January 18, 2021 [11 favorites]


I can't help but wonder if the Q folk are actually motivated by empathy towards children so much as they are motivated by the symbolic idea of children.

David Barnhart:
"'The unborn' are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don't resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don't ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. It's almost as if, by being born, they have died to you. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.

"Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn."
I know that Q is about saving currently living children, but I get the same vibes from them as from the militant pro-lifers.
posted by nushustu at 2:31 PM on January 18, 2021 [120 favorites]


How early can I start drinking?

Election day 2016.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:46 PM on January 18, 2021 [34 favorites]


How many Americans believe that the earth is 6000 years old, and how many of them are Trump supporters? And how much overlap is there?

The Venn diagram is nearly a perfect circle
posted by Ahmad Khani at 2:56 PM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


If this helps a bit: 42 hours until Joe's hand is on the bible.
posted by PhineasGage at 2:56 PM on January 18, 2021 [9 favorites]


31:58, as of posting
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:01 PM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


I appreciate the sentiment, I really do. But "hand on the bible" isn't exactly the imagery that represents "America has learned from its mistakes" to me.
posted by Riki tiki at 3:10 PM on January 18, 2021 [29 favorites]


Check your time zones, Church...?
posted by PhineasGage at 3:14 PM on January 18, 2021


It probably wouldn't go over well if he put a different body part on the bible.
posted by clawsoon at 3:14 PM on January 18, 2021 [15 favorites]


"Anyone have thoughts on the role of American churches in all this? The people I know who are empathetic and caring in real life, and also Trump supporters, get their takes on the news from church."

I no longer think there's any way back from this for American Christianity. I think we will see a relatively rapid collapse of religious affiliation in the US, to much more European levels, and people who do continue to identify as religious will mostly do so for affective or familial reason ("I always went to Midnight Mass on Christmas growing up") and not for theological reasons. This is not happening tomorrow -- this will be a shift over a decade or longer -- but I think the tipping point has come and gone and the collapse is no longer avoidable.

American Christianity has failed in every way that matters in the 21st century. It's full of liars and grifters with no allegiance to the truth. It just flatly IS the moneychangers in the temple at this point. It has proven more interested in protecting its leadership than serving its flocks. It has completely, catastrophically failed to address clear moral and existential issues of our time -- climate change, white nationalism, the monetization of people's emotional and attentional lives.

A vibrant and prophetic Christianity would have been preaching from the pulpit EVERY WEEK about the moral evils of SUVs for the last 20 years. It would have been confronting Americans' consumerism and anti-environmentalism. It would have been confronting racism, every week. These are clear, simple, obvious moral and theological mandates. American Christianity just shrugged its shoulders and entirely gave up exercising any moral leadership.

Right-wing Evangelical Christianity is obviously much worse, and much darker, than the mainstream or left. They turned Christianity into capitalism and sold their souls for political power. But even left-wing pastors -- people I went to seminary with, that I love and respect -- mostly aren't up there in the pulpit every week saying "Christians are forbidden from owning guns. Racism is a moral evil. Immigrants must be welcomed." The Chicago Tribune had a story just this week about a priest who denounced Trump from the pulpit -- just this week! After four years of this shit! -- and 30 people walked out of Mass. I mean, guys, it's over. Christianity has zero ability left to talk about right and wrong.

I've been fighting for the Christian Left for my entire adult life. But I honestly think it's over. The gross hypocrisy of the Right, who claim in Jesus's name everything Jesus stood against, has probably been the final blow. But the flat refusal of American Christianity to meet the moral moment of the 21st Century as a vibrant and living faith, preferring to comfort the faithful so they like going to church, has doomed it to obsolescence where people don't look to it for leadership or authority or morality, only for affective experiences, like they like the music.

I do think we're going through a second Axial Age. Most large religions and major philosophies were born during the first one, when the old religions couldn't answer the increasing complexity of the world and no longer spoke to people's experiences and concerns. In that way, all our religions are struggling to cope with modern technology and communication -- and most importantly, with climate change. I don't think any will survive the 21st century in their present form, because no major religions are equipped to deal with how rapidly human society is changing.

But American Christianity just flatly gave up and gave in. It's in hospice, and it's basically cool with that. Despite my fascination with theology, I'm just sort-of rolling my eyes at all these evangelicals trying to "reckon with" what Trumpism did to their churches. It just seems increasingly irrelevant. Angels on the head of a pin. An interesting intellectual exercise, but nobody actually gives a fuck in the real world.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:16 PM on January 18, 2021 [118 favorites]


I just want to highlight one thing biogeo mentioned: the track record being advertised. One of Obama's mistakes, IMHO, was the not withholding money from people's paychecks so people would use the money (to stimulate the economy) without advertising it broadly. I know this was based on behavioral economics ideas. But the problem was, Obama got no credit for this because it was sort of invisible by design. Trump made sure that all the checks that were sent out had President Donald J. Trump (hopefully the last time I will ever have to write that) written right on them. I hope the Democrats have learned from that. Let's advertise all the ways we are helping Americans until the Right is sick of hearing about it.
posted by wittgenstein at 3:49 PM on January 18, 2021 [17 favorites]


With utter deference to Eyebrows McGee, who knows approximately a zillion times more about religion in America than I do - and acknowledging that I'm a white person with the very barest knowledge of how Black churches serve Black communities in America these days - I would like to note that a deeply moral, humanistically moral Christianity is still being preached in some predominantly Black churches by Black ministers, including Reverence William Barber II and our newly-elected Rev. Raphael Warnock, and some of the greatest American leaders of the generation that we've lost in the past year or two - such as Congressman John Lewis and Congressman Elijah Cummings - held strong religious convictions that seemed to fortify and amplify their life-long work for social change.

It's easy to think of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell when we think about American Christianity, but there is also the Christianity of Black preachers (never, never forgetting Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.), and even a white non-believer like me can (and does!) take inspiration from them.
posted by kristi at 3:57 PM on January 18, 2021 [62 favorites]


Thanks, gudrun, for that recommendation. I just downloaded Gods of the Upper Air. I never heard before of that link between Boas/Mead/Benedict et al on the one hand and the movement toward acceptance of diversity right here in the US on the other.

From the review: “If it is now unremarkable for a gay couple to kiss goodbye on a train platform,” he writes, “for a college student to read the Bhagavad Gita in a Great Books class, for racism to be rejected as both morally bankrupt and self-evidently stupid, and for anyone, regardless of their gender expression, to claim workplaces and boardrooms as fully theirs—if all of these things are not innovations or aspirations but the regular, taken-for-granted way of organizing society, then we have the ideas championed by the Boas circle to thank for it.”

None of these things are yet unremarkable, of course, and it's Pollyannaish to think so. They still can provoke hatred and violence as we all know. But it's also true that these social and moral trends are now part of the public discourse, like it or not. That's progress of a sort. And it gives hope, of a sort. I'll take it.
posted by mono blanco at 4:03 PM on January 18, 2021 [6 favorites]


Oh, and also Stacey Abrams' preacher parents had a lot to do with her commitment to pursuing voting rights for all.
“My faith is central to the work that I do, in that I not only hold Christian values, but my faith tradition as a Methodist tells me that the most profound demonstration of our faith is service,” said Abrams.
posted by kristi at 4:07 PM on January 18, 2021 [12 favorites]


I'm still having trouble with the notion of Trump supporters who are "kind" and "empathetic," given that Trump exemplifies the exact opposite of kindness and empathy in every action and public statement. It's like talking about a school of dolphins that lives in the Sahara desert. Doesn't seem possible.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 4:11 PM on January 18, 2021 [17 favorites]


CNN just now: Trump is cordoned off by himself, no one is talking to him. According to a source (former friend, knows lots of people at the White House) office staffers are planning their new gig, and he is making an enemies list.
posted by nicoffeine at 4:21 PM on January 18, 2021 [9 favorites]


It occurs to me that there are two kinds of people left at the White House: those who believe the election was stolen, and those who aren't afraid of any criminal liability from being around Trump after an attempted coup.

Smells like... immunity.
posted by nicoffeine at 4:24 PM on January 18, 2021 [1 favorite]


According to a source (former friend, knows lots of people at the White House) office staffers are planning their new gig, and he is making an enemies list.

MAKING?
posted by delfin at 4:28 PM on January 18, 2021


He's making a list, and checking it twice

Gonna find out who's seditious or nice
posted by deadaluspark at 4:32 PM on January 18, 2021 [15 favorites]


MAKING?

Crafting? Constructing? Producing? Composing? Forming? Assembling?

(Sorry, just celebrating International Thesaurus Day.)
posted by clawsoon at 4:33 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


@HelenKennedy: Given that the Trumps are snubbing the Bidens, why not have the Obamas and Bushes and Clintons perform the traditional White House welcome? They will be in town. It would be bipartisan. And it would uphold the important symbolic ritual of a president welcoming his successor.


God that would burn. Just Obama would do, report as: we don't need Trump. Obama can do his job for him if he can't handle it.
posted by ctmf at 4:36 PM on January 18, 2021 [33 favorites]


Got to feel like the Bidens, rather than feeling "snubbed", are more like "oh, thank god that charade is off the program."
posted by ctmf at 4:38 PM on January 18, 2021 [51 favorites]


So, nicoffeine, do you mean Trump is... increasingly isolated?

(Shall we make that MeFi shorthand code #37?)
posted by PhineasGage at 4:39 PM on January 18, 2021 [17 favorites]


I'm still having trouble with the notion of Trump supporters who are "kind" and "empathetic,"

Mostly, I think people are talking about the idea & experience that Trump supporters can be kind and empathic at the "micro" level, the personal level - one on one or in certain small group situations.

Look, many of us here have Trump-voting parents or relatives who were perfectly fine as parents and relatives; they kissed our boo-boos when we were 4 and fell off our bike, they taught us to drive, they hugged us and said "I'm so proud of you" when we graduated high school, they loved us and took care of us when we were young and they still love and want to help us however they can. And maybe they also volunteer at their church soup kitchen once a month, or take in exchange students, or whatever.

They're perfectly capable of kindness and empathy in a direct personal way. What they CAN'T seem to do is expand that empathy past their immediate surroundings.

(And also Jaysus I know we don't want to have this argument again, but there really are a lot of people who vote while having very very very little information, they really pay almost NO attention to all the stuff we (justifiably) freak out about here, and this is especially true if they're in the Fox News/conservative FB bubble. There is almost no way to emphasize this enough - put Fox on for 12 hours and you'll see an ENTIRELY different picture of America, even from just the basic information that they leave out or downplay.)
posted by soundguy99 at 4:42 PM on January 18, 2021 [33 favorites]


Schumer and McConnell cost in on power-sharing agreement in evenly divided Senate

This is possibly peak The Democrats, right here.
posted by mightygodking at 4:52 PM on January 18, 2021 [11 favorites]


>> In the cases I'm thinking of, people who believe that Jesus meant what he said about serving the poor and who've done a lot more of that than I ever have or probably ever will.

> People are lots of things, but consistent isn’t one of them.

Yeah... it seems like, if nothing else, they can't be attending too closely to—
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and Mammon.
(Matthew 6:24, KJV) Now I'm imagining a line of Trump-branded golden calf statues. C'mon, 2021 writers, you can do it!

> I do think we're going through a second Axial Age.

Thank you so much, Eyebrows McGee—I was aware of this pattern in the first millenium BCE, but until I read that and looked it up I had no idea there was a term for it.

Maybe we're in an Axillary Age instead, the armpit of the history of enlightenment. The parallel to Jaspers's quote in the Wikipedia article about a deep breath bringing the most lucid consciousness in the Axial Age being that instead, it's now mostly mouthbreathers, on the verge of asphyxiation from being shallow.
posted by XMLicious at 4:55 PM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


It's a perfect display of the return to camaraderie that the Senate has long lacked. Each committee will get one Democratic vote, one Republican vote, and one vote by the imaginary middle-class Republican couple that lives in Schumer's head rent-free.
posted by delfin at 4:55 PM on January 18, 2021 [23 favorites]


> Schumer and McConnell cost in on power-sharing agreement

Charlie Brown and Lucy prepare for kickoff after historic work agreement
posted by at by at 4:58 PM on January 18, 2021 [43 favorites]


It's a perfect display of the return to camaraderie that the Senate has long lacked. Each committee will get one Democratic vote, one Republican vote, and one vote by the imaginary middle-class Republican couple that lives in Schumer's head rent-free.

It's a not a return to camaraderie, even in a facetious tone, it's a hostage negotiation. If Schumer doesn't agree to this, McConnell has let it be known that he is going to call a vote on every single pissy little thing that the Senate will be conducting business on and will force VP Harris into every single vote he can. He will make her be there 24/7.

Like I hate Schumer for giving that turtle any more access to the levers of power but McConnell is ready to burn the whole fucking building down. There are no good decisions to be made here.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:58 PM on January 18, 2021 [19 favorites]


That doesn't sound that terrible to me? I'm not an expert in how Senate rules differ from standard Robert's (clearly a lot of ways), but can committees not submit minority reports? Holding the schedule is way more powerful than being able to gridlock committees.
posted by ctmf at 5:02 PM on January 18, 2021


What they CAN'T seem to do is expand that empathy past their immediate surroundings.

So I had a conversation just now with one of the Trump supporters I was talking about, and that wasn't the impression I got.

She doesn't agree with Trump's stance on refugees. She thinks universal healthcare would be great. She doesn't like the death penalty. She works to make sure that international adoptions are legitimate and not the result of child trafficking.

But she likes what Trump has done against abortion, for Israel, and has a general impression that he has supported "biblical" laws despite his poor personal character. She also worries that higher taxes might be a step in the direction of Stalinism. She likes that he doesn't do the smooth fakery of other politicians.

If you want to know how all of those things can fit together in one person, ask Evangelicalism.

Hopefully that helps fill in the blanks for some of you who couldn't imagine someone like this. Perhaps not a typical Trump supporter, but one of them.
posted by clawsoon at 5:06 PM on January 18, 2021 [12 favorites]


This is what happens in a 50-50 split Senate. I don't understand the complaint. Schumer has to work out a power sharing agreement because the Dems don't have enough seats to unilaterally set the rules. And the power-sharing agreement described in the article seems to pretty clearly leave Schumer and the Democrats in charge, getting most of what they want.
posted by biogeo at 5:07 PM on January 18, 2021 [21 favorites]


I mean, I believe Schumer is historically both too centrist and too conciliatory. But after everything that's happened I doubt he's doing this just for the sake of it, and I suspect there are legitimate quirks to being a 50-50 senate, with a purported Democratic majority but:
  • Two runoff senators (both D) yet to be seated.
  • One senator becoming VP (and therefore tiebreaker in the senate) and replacement (D) appointed.
  • Two independents who both caucus with the Democrats.
The narrative right now needs to be about the insurrection and the end of Trump's presidency, including correcting the related problems there (expelling and punishing conspirators wherever we can find them). I actually do reasonably trust that Schumer isn't giving an inch he can't take back.
posted by Riki tiki at 5:10 PM on January 18, 2021 [6 favorites]


CNN just now: Trump is cordoned off by himself, no one is talking to him.

I just want to know whether his Diet Coke button still works.
posted by achrise at 5:16 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


Via dKos: Dominion Voting Systems has sent Mike Lindell a notice of imminent legal action.
posted by darkstar at 5:18 PM on January 18, 2021 [27 favorites]


clawsoon, does this person acknowledge Trump's 25,000+ documented lies during his presidency?

Is she aware of the two dozen-plus credible allegations of rape and sexual assault against him, or the millions of dollars he's grifted from the government skipping work to play golf on his own properties?

Does she consider sucking up to the likes of Putin, MBS, Kim Jong Il, and Erdogan, while snubbing our longtime allies, to be a good thing?

Does she know that he's pardoned convicted war criminals who murdered children?

Does she understand that his denial and dishonesty about the COVID pandemic has led to tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of deaths of people who likely could have survived if the crisis had been managed with even minimal competence?

(I could go on, but this seems sufficient to make the point.)

Not trying to harsh on you, and no, I don't expect you to answer these questions. I understand that hypocrisy, cognitive dissonance, and willful ignorance are all actual things, but in the end, all I can think of is a slightly revised version of that "joke" - What do you call a kind, empathic person who hangs out with Nazis? A Nazi.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 5:47 PM on January 18, 2021 [20 favorites]


Remember that officer with the Trump hat?

Police command structure crumbled fast during Capitol riot
One specific order came from Lt. Tarik Johnson, who told officers not to use deadly force outside the building as the rioters descended, the officers recounted. The order almost certainly prevented deaths and more chaos, but it meant officers didn’t pull their weapons and were fighting back with fists and batons.

Johnson has been suspended after being captured on video wearing a “Make America Great Again” hat while moving through crowds of rioters. Johnson told colleagues he wore the hat as a tactic to gain the crowd’s confidence as he tried to reach other officers who were pinned down by rioters, one of the officers said. A video of the incident obtained by the Wall Street Journal shows Johnson asking rioters for help in getting his colleagues.

Johnson, who could not be reached for comment, was heard by an officer on the radio repeatedly asking, “Does anybody have a plan?”
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:48 PM on January 18, 2021 [12 favorites]


Mod note: folks, PLEASE try to wrap up the proxy-interrogations of Trumpists not in this thread.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:50 PM on January 18, 2021 [29 favorites]


But she likes what Trump has done against abortion

As pointed out somewhere above, empathy for "the unborn" is empathy for an imaginary person that lives in your head - highly personal.

for Israel

Because Israel plays an important role in the various apocalyptic beliefs widespread among white evangelicals. Highly personal.

general impression that he has supported "biblical" laws

This, of course, as you know, is utter nonsense.

Thus my point - whatever sort of mouth noises they make about disliking his immigration politics, or supporting universal health care, when push came to shove and they had to do one teeny tiny little thing to help actual real people they don't personally know - namely, not vote for Trump - they couldn't do it. They couldn't expand their empathy past their one church-sanctioned - and thus valuable for social capital within their Christian community - thing (like vetting international adoptions) in order to improve the lives of others. Their highly personal religious beliefs blocked that one simple empathetic action of not voting for him. Their empathy does not expand. Their empathy is limited.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:53 PM on January 18, 2021 [24 favorites]


Sorry, jessamyn, I did not mean to give offense. Still working through some anger issues here, I guess, but I've said my bit on this topic.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 5:58 PM on January 18, 2021 [1 favorite]


I know that Q is about saving currently living children, but I get the same vibes from them as from the militant pro-lifers.

No, it fits completely, because the children in secret bunkers being drained of adrenochrome _do not exist_, so they are just as much perfect blanks as the unborn. These people are completely uninterested in helping real-life children like the ones Trump put in cages, just their fantasy children.
posted by tavella at 6:03 PM on January 18, 2021 [32 favorites]


This is what happens in a 50-50 split Senate. I don't understand the complaint. Schumer has to work out a power sharing agreement because the Dems don't have enough seats to unilaterally set the rules. And the power-sharing agreement described in the article seems to pretty clearly leave Schumer and the Democrats in charge, getting most of what they want.

Right. It's a 50-50 Senate and the VP doesn't get to vote on the organizing resolution. So the rules have to be a compromise. This is very similar to the deal worked out between Tom Daschle and Trent Lott in 2001.

Democrats get to chair all committees which is the power to control committee work. Both sides get the same number of committee members, but if there is a tie vote, there is still a procedure to move issues to the floor without a majority committee recommendation, so there isn't gridlock. Chuck Schumer will be Majority Leader and get to control the flow of legislation just like Mitch McConnell used to.
posted by JackFlash at 6:15 PM on January 18, 2021 [17 favorites]


So, nicoffeine, do you mean Trump is... increasingly isolated?

He's in double secret isolation.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:17 PM on January 18, 2021 [10 favorites]


He's in double-plus Trump.
posted by NotLost at 6:25 PM on January 18, 2021 [1 favorite]


"Trump is cordoned off by himself, no one is talking to him."

I can only picture him sitting in a corner in a room literally cordoned off with a velvet rope. And seeing those photos of the rioters weirdly staying withing the velvet ropes at the Capitol, I think we really underestimated the power they have and should used them more often in the future.

I jest but only kind of.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 6:25 PM on January 18, 2021 [19 favorites]


Anthony Scaramucci Says Even He Got Invited to Trump Military Sendoff: ‘Trust Me That Had to Be a Mass Email’
Anthony Scaramucci didn’t leave the White House on the best of terms. So the fact that the former communications director got an invitation to Trump’s military sendoff at Andrews Air Force Base, Scaramucci says, is a sign that “they’re looking for people” to attend.

“Trust me, that had to be a mass email if one of them got sent to me,” he told Inside Edition.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:35 PM on January 18, 2021 [16 favorites]


OK now my feelings are hurt that *I* didn't get one.
posted by PhineasGage at 6:44 PM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


The Cycle of Scaramucci is complete!
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 6:45 PM on January 18, 2021 [15 favorites]




Schumer and McConnell cost in on power-sharing agreement in evenly divided Senate

This is possibly peak The Democrats, right here.


I told some friends of mine years ago that Schumer is essentially the manager of the diner in Pulp Fiction, telling the robbers (McConnell, Trump) that he's no hero, encouraging them to just take whatever they want with no resistance, and yelling at anybody who does try to resist them with some "You're going to get us all killed, just give them what they want and this'll be over quickly" nonsense.
posted by lord_wolf at 6:48 PM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


The Cycle of Scaramucci is complete!

Now if Biden can successfully pass an infrastructure bill, Infrastructure Week will finally end and we'll be free!
posted by jason_steakums at 7:04 PM on January 18, 2021 [14 favorites]


I'm sure no one's going into the White House until it's been swept for devices, of all kinds, and all the toxic gold paint has been scraped off of everything
posted by mbo at 7:05 PM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


when push came to shove and they had to do one teeny tiny little thing to help actual real people they don't personally know - namely, not vote for Trump - they couldn't do it.

This episode of Straight White American Jesus (might be the first episode, I just started listening and the feed weirded out on me) has an early anecdote about coming from an evangelical background, struggling with the fact that Kerry was a better fit for virtually every charitable principle in the bible. But Bush was the "don't kill millions of babies" candidate, if that view on abortion was your overriding dogma. He voted for Bush.

He failed (in most of our opinions), in that instance. But he was describing it as a schismatic moment: a youth pastor who had been morally blackmailed by the elders of his church.

Some people can live with that dissonance indefinitely. Others reject it, and double-down on their fealty. But in this case, the contradiction led to someone returning to reason... and even better, introspecting about their struggle, publicly, in the hopes that others could learn from the experience.

Many of the best advocates against cultism are its former victims. We should be welcoming, if wary. Ben Sasse has no excuse at this point in his career, but if he's willing to compromise more aggressively, then fine whatever.

But others, who haven't had institutional power, and start to make active and good-faith efforts to doubt their hateful subculture? Let's not turn them away just for the sake of it.

Ask them what it means to live with the consequences of their mistakes. If they deny their mistakes, then it's probably a bad-faith conversation. If they show some internal conflict, then help them through that process.
posted by Riki tiki at 7:06 PM on January 18, 2021 [14 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnell is pointing out that Trump can issue pardons and not tell anyone, so they only are revealed upon prosecution or conviction. He speculates that may be how he pardons himself.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:13 PM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


Yeah but he'll do it the dumbest possible way by keeping the "pardon" on a piece of paper on his person like a literal get out of jail free card with no proof he wrote it as president
posted by jason_steakums at 7:15 PM on January 18, 2021 [15 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnell is pointing out that Trump can issue pardons and not tell anyone, so they only are revealed upon prosecution or conviction. He speculates that may be how he pardons himself.

How would that work? Doesn't somebody have to record it officially somehow? Like... otherwise... wouldn't he be able to just say, "Oh, yeah, I totally pardoned that guy while I was still president"?
posted by clawsoon at 7:15 PM on January 18, 2021 [18 favorites]


The Constitution doesn't specify any recording. I could see him doing it just to further chaos.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:21 PM on January 18, 2021 [1 favorite]


Yeah, seems like it would have to be at least serialized and recorded in the admin assistant's correspondence log. Otherwise how would it ever be authenticated? Like clawsoon said, you can't just pull out some folded up dirty dog-eared paper out of your wallet and show it, and the prosecutor be like, welp, nothing I can do. He's got a pardon.
posted by ctmf at 7:22 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


I don't think Trump can do anything and not tell anyone.
posted by Mchelly at 7:26 PM on January 18, 2021 [39 favorites]


I told some friends of mine years ago that Schumer is essentially the manager of the diner in Pulp Fiction, telling the robbers (McConnell, Trump) that he's no hero, encouraging them to just take whatever they want with no resistance, and yelling at anybody who does try to resist them with some "You're going to get us all killed, just give them what they want and this'll be over quickly" nonsense.
I'm sure that personally he would like to take a stronger stance, but at the end of the day he's answerable to Joe and Eileen Bailey, the imaginary Reagan Democrats from Massapequa who live in his head and who are "always by his side."

I wish I was joking.
posted by Nerd of the North at 7:31 PM on January 18, 2021 [10 favorites]


Trump might be able to create "secret pardons," nicely signed documents with an official seal on them, good for use in case of prosecution. But for that to work, he'd have to give one to each pardonee. (I mean. I suppose he could hold on to them, and reach out to the pardonees as they get prosecuted, and say, "hey, for a rea$onable con$ideration, I could give you this...")

He may try pardoning himself this way. But if none of his lawyers will write it up for him, the phrasing is going to be atrocious and might not hold up in court even if courts allowed that it was possible.

...and I agree with Mchelly; I don't think he can take official action of any sort without announcing it. Especially in the last few days of his term; he's hungry for media attention.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:34 PM on January 18, 2021


Oh good. 7 million Qanon warriors who all can convince themselves they have double secret preemptive pardons from their God Emperor Trump.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:54 PM on January 18, 2021 [8 favorites]


QAnon adherents discussed posing as National Guard to try to infiltrate inauguration, according to FBI intelligence briefing
The FBI on Monday declined to characterize the credibility or gravity of the threats it outlined for law enforcement in advance of the inauguration.

The agency instead pointed to remarks FBI Director Christopher A. Wray made last week, when he said the agents were monitoring a “extensive amount of concerning online chatter” and noted the challenge of “trying to distinguish what’s aspirational versus what’s intentional.”
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:57 PM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


If he really wanted to throw a wrench into the system as his going-away gift, he could use his pardon power to announce a biblical Jubilee in which all prisoners are pardoned and freed.
posted by clawsoon at 8:00 PM on January 18, 2021 [9 favorites]


I don't think Trump can do anything and not tell anyone.

This is exactly why I don't think there is anything actually going on with aliens.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:06 PM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


I don't think Trump can do anything and not tell anyone.

I agree for two reasons:
  1. Trump is going to Trump. He's going to brag about whatever he does and flex the power just because he can.
  2. Assuming he is capable of strategic thought and has some interest in working with the GOP He can take a case to a 6-3 Supreme Court, and make Self-Pardoning the law of the land for future presidents.
posted by MrGuilt at 8:13 PM on January 18, 2021


He can take a case to a 6-3 Supreme Court, and make Self-Pardoning the law of the land for future presidents.

There is 0% chance a conservative SC would establish such a precedent that could be used by a future Dem/liberal/progressive President.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:40 PM on January 18, 2021


There is 0% chance a conservative SC would establish such a precedent that could be used by a future Dem/liberal/progressive President.

C.f. Bush v. Gore
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:44 PM on January 18, 2021 [7 favorites]


I don't think pardons lapse, even if the recipient hasn't yet accepted the pardon and there has been a change of administration. Maybe a subsequent President could revoke an undelivered pardon; I don't know. The only relevant case I know of (NYT) isn't really dispositive because the pardon apparently was never formally written up and it wasn't tested in court. If so, it raises the disquieting possibility that Trump might have a stack of secret pardons in his back pocket - or worse, retain the ability to magically produce alleged pardons as required, under the pretence that he had actually issued them while in office.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:56 PM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


Why is he allowed to pardon at all? Doesn't "except in cases of Impeachment" apply to the President doing the pardoning? Can't it? Shouldn't it?
posted by bink at 11:12 PM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


Why is he allowed to pardon at all? Doesn't "except in cases of Impeachment" apply to the President doing the pardoning?

I believe that just means he can't nullify an impeachment by issuing a pardon, not that he can't pardon someone for the criminal acts that overlap with impeachment.

retain the ability to magically produce alleged pardons as required, under the pretence that he had actually issued them while in office.

This is like trying to declare war, without actually telling the nation you declared war on. It doesn't work like that.
posted by mark k at 11:21 PM on January 18, 2021


Maybe it shouldn't work like that, but the Constitution doesn't say that a pardon must, e.g., be registered, or lodged in the Library of Congress, or stamped with the Great Seal or whatever.

As for declaring war, that's a power reserved to Congress ... but in fact the US President is notoriously accompanied by an aide who carries around the materials necessary for a unilateral declaration of war delivered by nuclear missile. So not a good example, is what I'm saying.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:10 AM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


I remember seeing updates here about Parler slowly getting back online with help from Epik, but now it appears they've got hosting with DDOS-Guard, a Russian cloud hosting/security provider whose clients have included the Russian Defense Minisitry and Hamas. Somehow fitting that Trump's America will now all migrate their online home to Russia. I wonder how many of their users will even be aware of who they'll be entrusting their data with.
posted by p3t3 at 12:14 AM on January 19, 2021 [27 favorites]


"Capitol rioter threatened to shoot his children if they told FBI about DC trip, authorities say."

I completely misunderstood this headline. I thought it meant that someone unrelated was thinking about turning in a Capitol rioter, and the Capitol rioter was threatening to shoot that person's children.

When I read the article, it turned out to be a Capitol rioter threatening to shoot his own children.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:49 AM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


Anyone have thoughts on the role of American churches in all this?

Yes:
In my opinion the religion that sets men to rebel and fight against their government, because, as they think, that government does not sufficiently help some men to eat their bread on the sweat of other men’s faces, is not the sort of religion upon which people can get to heaven. - Abraham Lincoln
Source: The Atlantic, What Lincoln Knew, which also dwells upon the ways in which Lincoln's faith affected his policy and personal conduct.

BTW, Lincoln described this as his "Last, Shortest, and Best Speech", and perhaps he was right. It's certainly very timely even now, nearly sixteen decades later.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:05 AM on January 19, 2021 [24 favorites]


I wonder how many of their users will even be aware of who they'll be entrusting their data with.

Trump and the fascists have always been fine with Putin's Russia. In fact a Russian oligarchic style pseudo-democratic dictatorship is probably exactly what they want.
posted by srboisvert at 3:12 AM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


Like clawsoon said, you can't just pull out some folded up dirty dog-eared paper out of your wallet and show it, and the prosecutor be like, welp, nothing I can do. He's got a pardon.

It really needs to be a receipt for a sufficiently large campaign donation to the DA or an affiliated PAC instead.
posted by srboisvert at 3:19 AM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


It's probably best not to speculate along the lines of "I bet this is how the Presidential pardon power works". It's very easy to get such things wrong, unless one has expertise in the specific field of law at hand.

29 hours, 33 minutes, y'all. I almost don't believe it.

Riki tiki: Thanks for the podcast recommendation! What's the auditory equivalent of doomscrolling? Because I do that. So I'm always looking for new podcasts to feed my habit.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:31 AM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


The Truth Is Paywalled But The Lies Are Free

Google Search Help
View web pages cached in Google Search Results

About cached links
Google takes a snapshot of each web page as a backup in case the current page isn't available. These pages then become part of Google’s cache. If you click a link that says “Cached,” you’ll see the version of the site that Google stored. If the website you're trying to visit is slow or not responding, you can use the cached link instead.

How to get to a cached link...
posted by cenoxo at 3:32 AM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


cenoxo, tech-savvy MeFites know that (or can grok it). But the people who need to be guided back to reality don't.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:34 AM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


Ben Sasse scares me more than Trump does, because Ben Sasse is smart enough to seem deceptively reasonable. The underlying foundation of the Republican party is the same in both cases, it's just more acceptable when it comes from Sasse.
posted by winna at 5:07 AM on January 19, 2021 [12 favorites]


Giants owner Johnson seeks Boebert campaign donation refund, NBC Sports, Marcus White, 1/17/2021:
For the second time in four days, Giants principal owner Charles Johnson [WP bio] released a statement regarding a political contribution he made in the run-up to the 2020 election, this time announcing he has requested that the contribution be returned.

Johnson and his wife, Ann, have asked U.S. Rep. Lauren Boebert to refund the contributions they made to her campaign last September. Boebert was elected to her seat in November.

Boebert, a Republican and a QAnon supporter from Colorado who was elected last year, has come under fire for tweeting Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi’s location during the Jan. 6 riot at the U.S. Capitol and disagreeing with police over metal detectors that members of Congress were asked to walk through before subsequent sessions.

The Johnsons each donated the maximum $2,800 to Boebert on Sept. 23, 2020.
...
The Giants have faced backlash from members of their fan base both times, and this time also have seen it from influential members of the community. Christine Pelosi [WP bio], Nancy Pelosi’s daughter, said she would leave the Giants Community Fund board if Johnson did not address the contributions to Boebert.

The younger Pelosi told The Sacramento Bee’s Marcos Breton: "We should all agree that violence has no place in public life. I appreciate the public pressure and concern that led to this. Thank you to Mr. Johnson and the Giants for their commitment to justice and healing."
Another foul ball for Boebert.
posted by cenoxo at 5:24 AM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


I believe that just means he can't nullify an impeachment by issuing a pardon, not that he can't pardon someone for the criminal acts that overlap with impeachment.

If "well regulated militia" can be interpreted to mean "guns for everybody!", surely there's some wiggle room on "except in cases of impeachment".
posted by clawsoon at 5:52 AM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


How Trump will hand off the 'nuclear football' to Biden, CNN, Zachary Cohen, 1/19/2021:
President Donald Trump will not be in attendance Wednesday to watch as his successor Joe Biden is sworn into office, but his absence will have little impact on what may be one of the most important moments of Inauguration Day, the handing off of the "nuclear football." [WP]

The "football," which contains the equipment that Trump would use to authenticate his orders and launch a nuclear strike, is carried by a military aide who accompanies the President at all times -- up to the second he officially leaves office on January 20.

Typically, the football would be handed off to another military aide standing on or nearby the inauguration viewing stand as Biden takes his oath of office. But on Wednesday, that exchange will happen a bit differently as Trump is currently expected to depart Washington, DC, for Florida before Biden's inauguration ceremony....
More details in the article. No fumbles please, gentlemen.
posted by cenoxo at 5:53 AM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


My hope is that someone always follows Trump around carrying a neon-green "Nerf" foam football that Trump was told was the Nuclear Football 4 years ago.
posted by mmoncur at 5:59 AM on January 19, 2021 [23 favorites]


This is the first time I have heard about "the biscuit". Very interesting stuff. Thanks, cenoxo.
posted by all about eevee at 6:01 AM on January 19, 2021


Biden picks transgender woman as assistant health secretary

A pediatrician and former Pennsylvania physician general, Levine was appointed to her current post by Democratic Gov. Tom Wolf in 2017, making her one of the few transgender people serving in elected or appointed positions nationwide. She won past confirmation by the Republican-majority Pennsylvania Senate and has emerged as the public face of the state’s response to the coronavirus pandemic.

...

A graduate of Harvard and of Tulane Medical School, Levine is president of the Association of State and Territorial Health Officials. She’s written in the past on the opioid crisis, medical marijuana, adolescent medicine, eating disorders and LGBTQ medicine.
posted by Twain Device at 6:17 AM on January 19, 2021 [45 favorites]


If Trump is spending Inauguration Day in Florida, does he have any chance of starting a coup?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:30 AM on January 19, 2021


Dr. Levine recently gave an online talk to a graduate program I'm in. In addition to obviously being very smart and qualified, as you'd expect, she seemed incredibly caring and perceptive, with the confidence and persistence to make things happen. I'm a big fan.
posted by sepviva at 6:37 AM on January 19, 2021 [22 favorites]


I'm sure no one's going into the White House until it's been swept for devices, of all kinds, and all the toxic gold paint has been scraped off of everything


Yes, it's petty of me...yes, there are about nine billion more important things going on....but I hope that one of the first things Biden does is march into the Oval Office and have someone take down those tacky fucking gold curtains.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 6:58 AM on January 19, 2021 [9 favorites]


Seems it is traditional for every President to change the curtains in the Oval Office. I am assuming Joe will pick something new.
posted by all about eevee at 6:59 AM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


My idea was to post an invitation online inviting all his supporters (the ranks are somewhat thinned now after being arrested but there are still plenty of attendees that the FBI hasn’t caught up with yet), inviting all of them down to Mar A Lago for an alternative inauguration/2024 campaign announcement/thanks for the coup attempt/whatever. Free buffet! Free beer! Pitch a tent on the golf course if you can’t find a hotel room. Guaranteed photo op with Dear Leader for a slight fee or free autograph. Etc.

Would serve to get them away from DC at any rate.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:03 AM on January 19, 2021 [6 favorites]


Also, this is bugging me. Will he be able to keep the “deactivated” football? Because that’s the kind of thing he’d love to keep and show off to his golf buddies.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:07 AM on January 19, 2021


I hope that one of the first things Biden does is march into the Oval Office and have someone take down those tacky fucking gold curtains.

Part of me wants Biden to say "You think that's tacky? I'll show you tacky!" and put up zebra-print curtains with magenta fringe.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:13 AM on January 19, 2021 [12 favorites]


I have read they are going to redecorate with lots of shades of blue.
posted by all about eevee at 7:17 AM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


My wife has socks with photos of our big fluffy black cat Arwyn on them. What I’m saying is that, Mr. President-Elect, you can freely use Arwyn photos on your new Oval Office curtains.
posted by Servo5678 at 7:17 AM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


Diamond Joe would surely replace the curtains with a couple of bitchin tapestries with black light-ready fluorescent ZOSO symbols.
posted by onehalfjunco at 7:23 AM on January 19, 2021 [17 favorites]


CNN has a pretty good infographic-y thing: Biden vowed his Cabinet would look like the country. So does it?, graphing diversity by race and ethnicity, gender, and age.

There's some room for improvement, but overall it's seems to me to do pretty well on diversity. It's nice to see that the cabinet is less white than the nation as a whole (50% vs 61%).

Really great to hear about Dr. Levine, especially with sepviva's follow-up.

I am SO glad to see some real diversity in the new administration.
posted by kristi at 7:24 AM on January 19, 2021 [18 favorites]


Florida police were after a covid-19 data scientist. She turned herself in — and tested positive.

Trumpism is going to be with us for long after Trump is gone.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:25 AM on January 19, 2021 [14 favorites]


Who edited that CNN article?
The biscuit contains alphanumeric codes that are used to positively identify the president, who maintains the sole, legal authority to authorize a nuclear launch.

The reason is explicitly laid out in the Constitution, which gives Trump complete authority over the US nuclear arsenal up to the very second Biden is sworn in at noon on Wednesday.
If only the framers had that kind of foresight.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:39 AM on January 19, 2021 [17 favorites]


Well, onehalfjunco, if he's going to do it right, Camaro Joe should also pull some old Blue Oyster Cult blacklight posters out of his attic to install in the Oval Office.
posted by PhineasGage at 7:42 AM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


Rachel Levine is amazing and has been keeping us sane in Pennsylvania during the pandemic. I'm so proud.
posted by desuetude at 7:53 AM on January 19, 2021 [11 favorites]


Seems it is traditional for every President to change the curtains in the Oval Office.

Biden’s got a lot of cleaning up to do, for sure. Does the Donald have a damage deposit?
posted by cenoxo at 7:54 AM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


Will he be able to keep the “deactivated” football? Because that’s the kind of thing he’d love to keep and show off to his golf buddies.

It's government property, so it would be straight-up theft if he held onto it. And it's probably full of top secret nuclear war plans (in abbreviated form), it's a sort of menu of annihilation available to the President.

Also he'd probably have to wrestle th/e military aide for it...
posted by BungaDunga at 7:54 AM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


Also, the Hyten quote in the article doesn't say "we would prevent illegal launches", it says "I'd work with the President to make his order legal, and then we'd follow it." Totally different thing!
posted by BungaDunga at 7:56 AM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


If Trump is spending Inauguration Day in Florida, does he have any chance of starting a coup?

If this WaPo report is any indication, he'll spend more time fuming over the celebrity roster at the Inauguration over anything else.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:59 AM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


Gee, you’d think that he doesn’t get what it means to be president or something.
posted by Melismata at 8:14 AM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


God, I'll be relieved once he doesn't have access to the football.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:14 AM on January 19, 2021 [9 favorites]


Will he be able to keep the “deactivated” football? Because that’s the kind of thing he’d love to keep and show off to his golf buddies.

Paint a Sports Illustrated Football Phone red and give it to him.
posted by nathan_teske at 8:27 AM on January 19, 2021 [12 favorites]


...zebra-print curtains with magenta fringe.

Why are you attacking me?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:47 AM on January 19, 2021 [13 favorites]


> God, I'll be relieved once he doesn't have access to the football.

When Trump took office I had a mental best case/worst case scale for his time as President, and the worst-case scenario was basically nuclear war, so yeah.

24 hours to go.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:56 AM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


Synchronize watches: 24 hours till the football, and the presidency of the USA, passes to Joseph Robinette Biden. Stay safe, everyone. The world is watching with bated breath and clenched buttocks.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 8:58 AM on January 19, 2021 [9 favorites]


Watching confirmation hearings out of the corner of my eye: omg, you guys, we're getting a government back.

Nearly crying in relief.
posted by Dashy at 9:01 AM on January 19, 2021 [13 favorites]


LESS THAN 24 HOURS TO GO
ONE MORE SLEEP TILL BIDENMAS
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:02 AM on January 19, 2021 [30 favorites]


Now you've put the silver shamrock song (content warning: serious flashy lights) in my head. You'll pay for that.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:05 AM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


When Trump took office I had a mental best case/worst case scale for his time as President, and the worst-case scenario was basically nuclear war, so yeah.

There hasn't been a day in the last four years that I would've been surprised if we'd nuked some random place.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:17 AM on January 19, 2021 [9 favorites]


There hasn't been a day in the last four years that I would've been surprised if we'd nuked some random place.

And then the media would turn around and say he finally "looked Presidential."
posted by deadaluspark at 9:34 AM on January 19, 2021 [8 favorites]


Proposal: a post, simply titled "Surely This" that goes live at 12:01PM tomorrow. I would love to have a place to celebrate and let go of the grief of the ten thousand years since Trump entered national politics.
posted by nicoffeine at 9:39 AM on January 19, 2021 [68 favorites]


Yeah, I had always assumed the next thread would be called "Surely This." I mean, I don't even know this site any more if it's not!
posted by deeker at 9:41 AM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


nicoffeine, I like it. I think you just volunteered.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:41 AM on January 19, 2021 [8 favorites]


Paul Campos, LGM: The rehabilitation of Donald Trump
Five and a half years ago I predicted there was a good chance that Donald Trump would end up getting elected president of the United States, at a time when such a prediction was widely considered to be absurd on its face.

I will now gaze into the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives, and make another prediction: Donald Trump’s presidency, which at this moment is being treated as pretty much a disaster by your standard issue National Review type “respectable” conservative commentator, is going to be largely rehabilitated by future mainstream conservative thought.

I’m not saying he’s going to end up with a whole institute at Stanford named after him, at which future Richard Epsteins can make farcically wrong predictions while getting paid big bucks to affect public policy on subjects they know nothing about, but I do believe he’s going to end up treated by mainstream conservatives — to the extent that phrase doesn’t become a complete oxymoron as we hurtle toward ethno-nationalist herrenvolk democracy — as a good president, who made a couple of bad mistakes in the last year of his term. [...]

Listen to me now and believe me later: the fact that the first three years of Trump’s presidency were non-stop carnivals of almost unbelievable incompetence and corruption is going to be memory-holed — and ironically the fact that his fourth year was unimpeachably worse will somehow provide the psychological buffer for this massive revision of the history of the Trump presidency which, unless he pulls a fascist Grover Cleveland, will at last be blessedly history tomorrow afternoon.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:41 AM on January 19, 2021 [43 favorites]


I'm really happy to see Dr. Levine get the job. Some days it feels like her, Wolf, and Fetterman are the only people keeping us from becoming a Florida level fuckup.
posted by cmfletcher at 9:45 AM on January 19, 2021 [12 favorites]


That's alright, I'll be here and there to remind folks about what a terrible President he was overall.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:46 AM on January 19, 2021 [27 favorites]


That's alright, I'll be here and there to remind folks about what a terrible President he was overall.

I've been doing that with Bush forever and yet people still start cooing over him when they see he shared a piece of candy with Michelle Obama.

War. Criminal.

Paul Campos nailed it, Trumps image will be rehabilitated.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:48 AM on January 19, 2021 [8 favorites]


The rehabilitation of Bush's image has been driven largely by humanizing factors such as his paintings and the aforementioned candy incident, along with his willingness to otherwise stay out of the spotlight. Be honest--can you imagine Donald Trump taking up a creative hobby, or sharing anything with anyone ever?
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:57 AM on January 19, 2021 [25 favorites]


W. did a few things to rehab his image that Trump will not be capable of matching.

1. Retire and keep a low profile for a few years. W. went off the grid with the exception of the occasional article you'd read about him learning to paint.
2. Show up, shut up, and smile at ex-president events. He's already tried to do his own thing on his first ex-president duty.
3. Keep your mouth shut about the guy in the office today. You never heard his dad say anything about Clinton. Clinton say anything about W. and W. say anything about Obama. Even with Trump Obama has tried to speak in general terms and not call him out by name.

He's going to keep bloviating to anyone who will give him space. There will be no rehab until he's dead and kis kids have tried to find other careers outside politics.
posted by cmfletcher at 10:01 AM on January 19, 2021 [39 favorites]


As far as Trump's future reputation goes, that entirely depends on whether his corruption and crimes are actually prosecuted to the extent allowable under law, or are brushed away in the interests of "looking to the future".
posted by maxwelton at 10:05 AM on January 19, 2021 [16 favorites]


Listen to me now and believe me later: the fact that the first three years of Trump’s presidency were non-stop carnivals of almost unbelievable incompetence and corruption is going to be memory-holed.

Just look at the example of GW Bush. He was arguably an even worse president than Trump and caused greater destruction of world stability and loss of life because he was staffed with competent malefactors.

Bush left office with a 33% approval rating. Today it is 61%. The general public has the memory of a goldfish, assisted by sycophant journalists.
posted by JackFlash at 10:06 AM on January 19, 2021 [10 favorites]


I do believe he’s going to end up treated by mainstream conservatives ... as a good president, who made a couple of bad mistakes in the last year of his term

That's what they've been doing now, why would you expect any different? His apologists are all "but the economy" and refuse to admit he was just coasting on Obama's recovery. The counterpoint to that is I expect a lot of kiss-and-tell books that will illuminate the shit show behind the scenes. Again, the true believers will write that off as sour grapes or cashing in, but it will leave a historical record.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:08 AM on January 19, 2021 [9 favorites]


Get ready for reality-grounded White House press briefings, Washington Post Opinions, Karen Tumulty, Jan. 18, 2021 [*]:
In retrospect, it has become clear that what set the course for Donald Trump’s presidency was not the bleak “American carnage” rhetoric of his inaugural address.

The pattern for so much that was to follow emerged the following day, when Trump dispatched his then-press secretary, Sean Spicer, to the White House briefing room to declare that the unexceptional size of Trump’s inauguration crowd exceeded the history-making gathering for Barack Obama’s 2009 inauguration. What the country had seen with its own eyes, in other words, was an illusion....
More good (and bad) news is on the way: can we handle reality again?

[*Alternate Google Cache link — other WaPo links within the article can hit their paywall.]
posted by cenoxo at 10:20 AM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


Trump provoked deadly Capitol riot, Senate GOP leader Mitch McConnell says
President Donald Trump provoked the swarms of his supporters who stormed the U.S. Capitol, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said Tuesday. ...

“The mob was fed lies,” McConnell told the chamber, which two weeks earlier had been evacuated as rioters invaded the building. “They were provoked by the president and other powerful people.”
posted by clawsoon at 10:21 AM on January 19, 2021 [42 favorites]


The conservosphere and more than a few Very Wise Moderates will take up the theme of Democrats as 'Sore Winners' ("you control the Senate and House, you've driven a popular President from office, what more do you want?"). Meanwhile Papa Don will at least partially resume his media career with a few appearances that are bound to be huge hits on Youtube, e.g. a cold open on SNL, maybe a humourous faceoff with an in-character Alec Baldwin. All the while he and his verminous spawn will be further burnishing their brand and strengthening their network as honoured (i.e. very well-compensated) guests at rallies in support of Senate, House, and gubernatorial hopefuls for the already-underway '22 and '24 election cycles. So yeah, these fucks aren't just going to disappear into oblivion, stewing in their own juices holed up in Elba-on-the-Florida-coast.
posted by hangashore at 10:30 AM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


The rehabilitation of Donald Trump

As long as Donald Trump has breath in his body, he will continue to lie, cheat, and steal at any and all moments for his own benefit first, above all others (including Republicans): he just can’t help himself.

May God keep the Donald ...... far away from us. Can we exile him to Mar-a-Lago with a full set of golf clubs, but without any golf balls?
posted by cenoxo at 10:38 AM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


His apologists are all "but the economy" and refuse to admit he was just coasting on Obama's recovery.

A lot of them believe that the economy was in a state of free-fall at the end of 2016, and Trump saved it. As we know, this is not what happened. Trump deserves, I suppose, some credit for not derailing the Obama -era recovery (pre-coronavirus, I mean); every graph I have seen of major indicators is pretty linear since about 2012.
posted by thelonius at 10:38 AM on January 19, 2021


Trump's image will absolutely be rehabilitated to the best of the media and the Republican Party's ability to do so. The mainstream media's motivation will be to maintain the facade that Trump was an aberration (how many times have you already heard or read someone in the media say "this isn't us" or "this isn't America"?) and not a symptom of America's ills, and to deflect reflection upon the role they played in Trump's rise to power and the normalization of his lawlessness, corruption, racism, etc. Fox News and the corporate wing of the GOP will have the perhaps more difficult task of threading the needle between needing the continued support of Trump's base and not scaring off "moderate" Republican voters who liked everything about Trump except the rude tweets and the uncouth nature of the attempted coup, but in the end most of them will be persuaded to continue to vote Republican as memories of Trump and his outrages grow softer and fade. It doesn't hurt for these purposes that objective reality is a thing of the past. OANN/Newsmax/etc. will of course always treat Trump as an illegally-deposed God King.

On January 6th, when things had died down a bit and it seemed apparent that the coup wasn't going to succeed (that day, at least), a friend of mine texted me asking "This has gotta be the end of the Republican Party, right?", and I was like oh my sweet summer child, the Republican Party is going to be *just fine*.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:49 AM on January 19, 2021 [10 favorites]


The mainstream media's motivation will be to maintain the facade that Trump was an aberration (how many times have you already heard or read someone in the media say "this isn't us" or "this isn't America"?) and not a symptom of America's ills, and to deflect reflection upon the role they played in Trump's rise to power and the normalization of his lawlessness, corruption, racism, etc.

This, a thousand times. They will try to rehabilitate him because it's in their best interest to do so. Otherwise, people might actually start questioning "How did this happen to begin with anyway?"
posted by deadaluspark at 10:54 AM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


I get the impulse to expect him to end up with his reputation intact somehow, but don't underestimate the tidal wave of shit that's about to be vomited back up in his face. We're about to hear about how all those agencies were understaffed or intentionally misrun, all of those endless stories from 2017 that just never went everywhere, especially in any agency related to the coronavirus response, it's all about to come back up again. Those incredible stories that just somehow never seemed to get traction early on are now going to be revisited through the lens of failure. When the outcome is unknown, it's one thing to watch him do irresponsible and uninformed random shit, acting like had special insight, but seen as the precursor to historic failure, to say it looks a lot different is a vast understatement. This only just gets us into the outright crimes and not at all into the impeachment.
posted by feloniousmonk at 11:03 AM on January 19, 2021 [19 favorites]


I should be clear that I'd be ecstatic to be proven wrong.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:07 AM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


It's so obvious. McConnell finally saying that Trump did something bad is laying the groundwork for an impeachment conviction so the Republicans can begin to distance themselves from him.
posted by PhineasGage at 11:10 AM on January 19, 2021 [32 favorites]


Feloniousmonk, the people who care about things like "understaffed agencies" are already not in Trump's corner I think. Other people don't seem to care much about that, or see it as "it's not a bug, it's a feature".

I mean, I'm all for all that stuff being thrown in his face, but after the last 5 years, if somebody doesn't think "he's the worst ever", this is not what will change it.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:17 AM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


Meanwhile Papa Don will at least partially resume his media career with a few appearances that are bound to be huge hits on Youtube, e.g. a cold open on SNL, maybe a humourous faceoff with an in-character Alec Baldwin.

There is zero chance that Alec Baldwin will play a scene with Donald Trump. None of the cast that was around during Trump's most recent appearance had anything nice to say about him so Lorne would be burning tons of good will with his staff if he tried to force that onto people.

With that said, I think one thing in Trump's favor about trying to rehabilitate his image is that he won't have access to Twitter and therefore he won't be sending hourly tweets that remind everyone how awful he is.
posted by mmascolino at 11:20 AM on January 19, 2021 [8 favorites]


don't underestimate the tidal wave of shit that's about to be vomited back up in his face. We're about to hear about how all those agencies were understaffed or intentionally misrun, all of those endless stories from 2017 that just never went everywhere, especially in any agency related to the coronavirus response, it's all about to come back up again. Those incredible stories that just somehow never seemed to get traction early on are now going to be revisited through the lens of failure

I think I'm going with this. And among other things, for this reason: the media are going to loose their golden goose. I for one will probably not read a megathread + five online papers maniacally every morning before doing anything else. I might even become more productive. One way they can keep people subscribing and reading is to keep on uncovering stuff they should have uncovered while he was president. And I for one will fall for it, for a while at least. Then I'll return to looking at dogs that do funny stuff.
posted by mumimor at 11:22 AM on January 19, 2021 [30 favorites]


I think it will be a rehabilitation like Nixon, i.e., not much. However, there will be less consensus. I think he will be broadly hated, but still loved by a vocal minority. A little like Hitler.
posted by snofoam at 11:27 AM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


The civil defense siren just sounded here in Peoria, IL for a few split seconds with no tornados in the area, which sent me into a full blown panic. I cannot wait until tomorrow.
posted by Buy Sockpuppet Bonds! at 11:36 AM on January 19, 2021 [18 favorites]


I woke up this morning with a sore throat and a cough and also thought it was already tomorrow, so I went through hours of panic when I didn't hear anything about the inauguration, or anything else while worried about the coronavirus. I can't wait till tomorrow is over and everything is good again (knocks wood).
posted by mumimor at 11:46 AM on January 19, 2021 [8 favorites]


It's gonna be hard to rehabilitate his image once the lawsuits are done. What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall in Letitia James's office tomorrow. Or even Cy Vance's.
posted by SansPoint at 11:52 AM on January 19, 2021 [8 favorites]


Near the end of his famous monologue in Jaws, Quint tells Brody and Hooper that the time he was most scared after the Indianapolis was torpedoed and the survivors were attacked by sharks was just before he was pulled from the water by the rescue team. The implication being that it would have been cosmically horrific to be killed at the very last moment before safety after having endured so much suffering.

I feel the same way about tomorrow: I'm more frightened of Trump and his supporters here in the waning hours of his reign with a "rescue" of sorts on the horizon than I was last Wednesday, for reasons similar to Quint.
posted by lord_wolf at 12:02 PM on January 19, 2021 [21 favorites]


From WaPo:

Vice President Pence is not expected to attend Trump’s send-off at Joint Base Andrews on Wednesday morning, according to White House officials.

Pence is attending Biden’s inauguration later in the day, and aides said it would be logistically challenging for the vice president to do both.

The Air Force base is about 13 miles, or a 10-minute helicopter ride, from the White House.
posted by nanook at 12:05 PM on January 19, 2021 [34 favorites]


It's gonna be hard to rehabilitate his image once the lawsuits are done. What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall in Letitia James's office tomorrow. Or even Cy Vance's.

I suspect both of them have investigations well underway and tomorrow afternoon is simply the time they can file subpoenas whose appeals won't go to the US Supreme Court.

Personally, I would like to know when Donald Trump is scheduled to provide the DNA sample for the court in E. Jean Carroll's defamation suit.
posted by mikelieman at 12:06 PM on January 19, 2021 [8 favorites]


My prediction is two competing effects in the following years:

10) Like anything and everything else he's been involved in, Dumpster will simultaneously not let go of the reins (the GOP, his following), and continue to stab himself in the foot at every turn;

20) Others will compete in turns for the loyalty of the maddening crowds, but never ever get the full blessing from the Dumpster to do so; GO TO 10.

I think Dubya only got "rehabilitated" in light of the Dumpster Fire of the last 4 years. I don't remember feeling quite so neutral towards him during the Obama years.
posted by Dashy at 12:09 PM on January 19, 2021 [11 favorites]


nathan_teske: My Pillow Guy with Kris Lindahl as his Lt Gov.

Damn, I miss the days of "Little Marky Rosen for governor." He was goofy but mostly harmless -- whereas these chuckleheads want to Burn It All Down ™.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:12 PM on January 19, 2021


I hope we'll see movement against Trump but he's still going to have the generic rich person immunity that kept him out of trouble before he was president. This is tempered by the amount of attention he's attracted to his criminal acts, which in turn is tempered that the prosecutions would inherently have a political aspect that many careerists wouldn't want to touch.

But I'd expect most of the civil suits to be settled with no admission of anything.

Basically, I'm not expecting to get "closure" on this era through the legal system.
posted by mark k at 12:13 PM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


With less than 24 hours to go, it's a good time to revisit this prescient article ("The Presidential Candidates Ranked By Their Usefulness In A Bar Fight") from more innocent times.
posted by mazola at 12:14 PM on January 19, 2021 [6 favorites]


I think Dubya only got "rehabilitated" in light of the Dumpster Fire of the last 4 years. I don't remember feeling quite so neutral towards him during the Obama years.

Yeah, a lot this is more "wow this a level of basic decency--or not even that, just etiquette--that is second nature for even divisive figures like W. but totally lacking for Trump." I do think people making that point sometimes glossed over W.'s other serious problems, but it's not like he's been revised into a successful presidency.

And it's worth pointing out W. was never completely shunned. That he's a war criminal was never a mainstream consensus, so not treating him as one is not actually revisionism.
posted by mark k at 12:17 PM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


I would like to know when Donald Trump is scheduled to provide the DNA sample for the court in E. Jean Carroll's defamation suit.

Someone should approach Mary Trump and ask her to provide a DNA sample (uncle/aunt and niece/nephew share around 25% of their DNA, enough to determine, if there is a useable amount of DNA on her dress, whether the person it came from is closely related).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:20 PM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


The civil defense siren just sounded here in Peoria, IL for a few split seconds with no tornados in the area, which sent me into a full blown panic.

I got an Amber Alert *during* the insurrection on the 7th. Have never moved to grab my phone more quickly....had 4 or so phones in the house all do the emergency alert screeching noise at once and it freaked me the hell out....
posted by inflatablekiwi at 12:27 PM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


I am more interested in how we make the GOP obsolete / a permanently minority party. The party is like a cockroach! They just refuse to die even though they’ve not had a president to champion since Lincoln and Eisenhower.

Voters consistently put them back in power after every heinous, human rights-abusing GOP president. So very tired of it.
posted by ichomp at 12:29 PM on January 19, 2021 [15 favorites]


If we can get states to end gerrymandering and implement ranked-choice voting the insurrectionist wing of the Republican party will shrivel and die within a decade.
posted by cmfletcher at 12:35 PM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


We'll see if this news holds up soon enough, but CNN is reporting Trump has been talked out of pardoning himself, his kids, or Republican lawmakers involved in last week's rally.
posted by nobody at 12:35 PM on January 19, 2021 [17 favorites]


Per nicoffeine's suggestion for the inaugural FPP at noon EST on Jan 20, perhaps we should ask this MeFite to do the honors? (Or is that too meta?)
posted by PhineasGage at 12:36 PM on January 19, 2021 [9 favorites]


(I suspect this lowers the chance of the Biden DoJ indicting him for anything, but we'll see about that soon enough, too...)
posted by nobody at 12:37 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


They just refuse to die even though they’ve not had a president to champion since Lincoln and Eisenhower.

Didn't Obama say nice things about Reagan?
posted by clawsoon at 12:44 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]




Reagan is the prime example of succesful Republican history-forging. He was a mean and evil person and a terrible president. But he was a good enough actor for the presidency.
posted by mumimor at 12:52 PM on January 19, 2021 [23 favorites]


The blithering dishonesty, hypocrisy, and rewriting of history that Republicans are already engaged in - Barr, Sasse and McConnell offering only the most recent, most visible examples - is entirely expected. But it still fills me with such anger, after four solid years of the blatant, criminal insanity that they happily played along with.
posted by PhineasGage at 12:58 PM on January 19, 2021 [17 favorites]


We'll see if this news holds up soon enough, but CNN is reporting Trump has been talked out of pardoning himself, his kids, or Republican lawmakers involved in last week's rally.

Prior to reading the article, I was going to say someone telling Trump not to do something was a sure fire way to get him to do it.

From the article: "Almost as alluring: preemptive clemency for members of his family, who Trump has long bemoaned were being unfairly targeted by his enemies"

Annnnnd there is the reason why Trump may have been successfully convinced not to pardon. Pardoning creates the impression of guilt--that you had something to be pardoned for in the first place. Without the pardon, he could continue to play the victim. I'm sure the GOP is happy to help.

"Several of Trump's closest advisers have also urged him not to grant clemency to anyone who breached the US Capitol, despite Trump's initial stance that those involved had done nothing wrong."

You would think breeching barriers, going places that you're not authorized to go normally, breaking windows, vandalism, etc. would be the very definition of doing something wrong. You don't get to go around entering places uninvited, break windows, etc. and not be wrong. But, in Trump world, it appears you can. Call it "temper tantrum by proxy."

I guess they don't understand how insurgencies/coups/revolutions work: if you are successful, you are the victors, and get to reboot the whole damn system. If you aren't, you go to jail...at best.

I suspect this lowers the chance of the Biden DoJ indicting him for anything

That does sound pretty on-brand, doesn't it? We need to move past this "unity" BS every time the GOP does something bad. HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE!

Elsewhere: While I agree W was a horrible president, meeting the "you can be civil" and "I actually am stable" standards go a long way. Yes, he started a war illegally, but there was a clear run up and process to it. I never feared one day there'd be a tweet and I'd hear we launched missiles at Kazakhstan just because his bucket'o'chicken kept him up. While "COVID Under Obama/Clinton/Biden" sounds like it would truly be a best effort, I suspect W wouldn't make wearing masks an ideological signifier.

It's similar to saying "I'd rather Pence." From an ideological and policy perspective, Pence is same as McConnell or Trump. But unlike the latter, he at least respects the overall norms.

Likewise, I don't think W or Pence would have played the "stolen election card" at all--for sure not as long as Trump did. They would reinforce the peaceful transfer of power. I think both men felt the office and the country was bigger than them. Yes, it's a low bar to clear, but Trump doesn't believe anything is bigger then him.
posted by MrGuilt at 1:01 PM on January 19, 2021 [12 favorites]


> Voters consistently put them back in power after every heinous, human rights-abusing GOP president. So very tired of it.

The finger thing will always mean the taxes.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:19 PM on January 19, 2021 [6 favorites]


It's so obvious. McConnell finally saying that Trump did something bad is laying the groundwork for an impeachment conviction so the Republicans can begin to distance themselves from him.

This isn't an ethical decision. It is pure cynical politics. McConnell has squeezed about all that's left from the Trump lemon and he's ready to discard it. He got his tax cuts for the rich and he got his three Supreme Court judges and that's about all that was on his agenda.

McConnell isn't so interested in the impeachment itself and its moral implications but instead its practical side effect that allows Republicans to bar Trump from running for political office. McConnell doesn't want Trump mucking up things in 2022 and 2024 like he did in Georgia.
posted by JackFlash at 1:29 PM on January 19, 2021 [23 favorites]


McConnell has squeezed about all that's left from the Trump lemon and he's ready to discard it.

Here's what I don't get: why did McConnell need Trump? Pence would have given Trump all those things, and not been a loose cannon.

While "long shot for reelection" is a bit of a stretch, Trump made it into the White house on a technicality, against a historically unpopular opponent, and caught a few lucky breaks. Even before COVID, it would be easy think Trump wasn't going to get reelected: a more motivated Democratic party nominating a more likeable candidate with a motivated base plus catching unlucky breaks.*

McConnell could have allowed Trump to be impeached, and let Pence take over and give him all the tax cuts and judges he wanted. He could have professed the GOP to be principled, and start rewriting history then. While Pence would have done a bad job with COVID (I live in Ohio and see how he did in Indiana), he might have at least come off as "competent-adjacent against a strong competitor." It wouldn't have handed the GOP the White House, but the GOP could enter the 2020 race with a clean slate.

*To an extent, that's what happened, though not in that order: a motivated Democratic based quickly coalesced behind a fairly non-controversial candidate who made no major gaffes and basically let Trump run against himself. Trump caught a bit of what-you-make-of-it luck in the form of COVID (which he turned into bad luck).
posted by MrGuilt at 1:41 PM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]




Well, that's nice: MyPillow CEO says Bed Bath & Beyond, Kohl’s, Wayfair are dropping his products (WaPo Business section)
posted by mumimor at 1:46 PM on January 19, 2021 [43 favorites]


I hope the Biden camp just says "the previous Administration" and never mentions his name again. Not even in the scope of referring to his office.
posted by nicoffeine at 1:47 PM on January 19, 2021 [31 favorites]


Here's what I don't get: why did McConnell need Trump? Pence would have given Trump all those things, and not been a loose cannon.

It's the Cantor problem all over again. Nobody wants to upset the base, but the base is batshit insane. Republican voters will crawl over glass to pull that lever every time but they will happily drum everyone out of office at the primary level if they don't get exactly what they want.

Removing Trump would basically have made every Republican senator a target for a primary challenge while depressing downballot turnout. There's no good way to get rid of Trump without sending the base nuts. However, when Trump sends red hats to the US Capitol to sack the place the calculus drastically changes.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:48 PM on January 19, 2021 [10 favorites]


Additionally, Trump being a loose cannon was a feature before it was a bug. Republicans in congress could do anything or nothing to their cold hearts' content, and Trump could be relied upon to distract the media with something even more reprehensible and shiny within five business days.
posted by Riki tiki at 1:52 PM on January 19, 2021 [12 favorites]


But, like, only because the coup failed.

If "And, hey, maybe he'll actually pull off a coup and we really have to get elected anymore!" hasn't been at the tail end of some GOP politician's and operator's conversations about Trump I'll eat my hat or a cake or whatever it is we're eating for these kinds of things these days.
posted by VTX at 1:52 PM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


why did McConnell need Trump?

Every matador needs a flag.
posted by Dashy at 2:03 PM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]




Something just occurred to me.

My dog has a dental cleaning tomorrow and will also have a few regular dog maintenance things checked while he's at the vet, including his annual fecal screening.

My January 20th will begin with handing off a literal bag of shit.

Meanwhile, 700 miles east...
posted by phunniemee at 2:11 PM on January 19, 2021 [25 favorites]


Well, that's nice: MyPillow CEO says Bed Bath & Beyond, Kohl’s, Wayfair are dropping his products (WaPo Business section)

Nelson Muntz, when he pointed and laughed.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 2:14 PM on January 19, 2021 [49 favorites]


the cspan video link is apparently Covid 19 Memorial Ceremony, the other just went to a static page.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 2:22 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


So at the same time Biden's being presidential, the guy on the way out made a farewell speech. The video is already up thanks to some deplorables, but if you'd like to read it and not hear that voice, it's here until the new administration takes over the website. My nom for most fascist sentiment:
No nation can long thrive that loses faith in its own values, history, and heroes, for these are the very sources of our unity and our vitality.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 2:23 PM on January 19, 2021


the cspan video link is apparently Covid 19 Memorial Ceremony, the other just went to a static page.

(that's just cspan, it's static til it's live, you have to refresh the page)
posted by phunniemee at 2:24 PM on January 19, 2021


Anyone know what time Wednesday Trump is revealing his healthcare plan?
posted by misterpatrick at 2:26 PM on January 19, 2021 [13 favorites]


Healthcare plan? It's infrastucture week. C'mon.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:28 PM on January 19, 2021 [15 favorites]


Somewhat entirely off topic, but I had a really good idea yesterday. The US should start with mandatory voting and voter registration. There should be a $20 fine for those that don't vote, but make it virtually unenforceable, kind of like the ACA penalty became. I can see a whole bunch of the right/wrong people getting really pissed off about how anything mandatory takes away their rights and then refusing to vote. That's my TED talk.
posted by Snowishberlin at 2:38 PM on January 19, 2021 [29 favorites]


With Georgia Certification Complete, Ossoff And Warnock Are Set To Be Sworn In
Georgia’s secretary of state announced Tuesday afternoon that the runoff elections have been officially certified, clearing the way for Sens.-Elect Jon Ossoff (D-GA) and Raphael Warnock (D-GA) to be sworn in on Wednesday.

Georgia technically had until Friday to complete the certification, keeping the timing of the swearing-in ceremony in flux.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:41 PM on January 19, 2021 [24 favorites]


Trump's reputation is going to be hard to rehabilitate if, as I fervently hope will be the case, NYS AG Letitia James successfully prosecutes him under New York State law for tax avoidance or some other sort of financial crime. He's on the hook for something like $400M in loans that he's personally guaranteed, and no bank wants him as a client. He was recorded trying to extort Brad Raffensperger. He fomented sedition. He was impeached twice and faces a second Senate trial. I have no illusions that revisionists won't try to sanitize or erase these and other loathsome acts, and that they very well might be successful in some respects. We all know that there is a vast swath of the US citizenry that can't accept the reality even now of 400,000 COVID deaths (and counting), or Trump's unspeakably evil policy of separating children at the border, or all the other shit we've endured for four horrible years. Given the dumpster fire that was/is 2020 and early 2021, Paul Campos is almost certainly right that the first three years of the Trump presidency will be "memory-holed." Still, for as evil as GWB was and remains, he wasn't facing anywhere near the legal and financial challenges that Trump will be facing circa 12:01 pm tomorrow, and that gives me some slight comfort. (Very slight, but I will take it.)
posted by cheapskatebay at 2:42 PM on January 19, 2021 [15 favorites]


So at the same time Biden's being presidential, the guy on the way out made a farewell speech.

This video has the weird left hand shots spliced in like the last one, inserting phrases that would be especially difficult to believe he'd say willingly. What's the deal with those? Has twitter picked those apart yet?
posted by phunniemee at 2:43 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


So close, but, after all the megathreads...

We Got This...?
posted by Windopaene at 2:45 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


I watched some of that video. He's making that torso twist+cringe motion with his body when he says shit he doesn't believe. I closed it immediately.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:46 PM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


This video has the weird left hand shots spliced in like the last one, inserting phrases that would be especially difficult to believe he'd say willingly. What's the deal with those? Has twitter picked those apart yet?

Cut to a different angle is a good cheap way to cover an edit, and Trump likes to ad lib and isn't great off a prompter in general, aside from however much he might cause a cut by disliking what he's reciting. I'd guess those are just very much "we didn't get a good take for Reasons, let's take it again" fixes with retakes.
posted by cortex at 2:48 PM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


No nation can long thrive that loses faith in its own values, history, and heroes, for these are the very sources of our unity and our vitality.

This asshole is talking about confederate statues and names on buildings isn't he?

Yeah maybe we just let that one not thrive.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:48 PM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


I forgot about the East Coast / West Coast time difference (I blame quarantine brain) and just realized the Trump presidency is ending three hours sooner than I thought! BONUS THREE HOURS woooooo!
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:12 PM on January 19, 2021 [39 favorites]


Trump’s farewell address video and text.
posted by cenoxo at 3:14 PM on January 19, 2021


AP: A U.S. Army soldier was arrested Tuesday in Georgia on terrorism charges after he spoke online about plots to blow up New York City’s 9/11 Memorial and other landmarks and attack U.S. soldiers in the Middle East, authorities said Tuesday.

Cole James Bridges of Stow, Ohio, was in custody on charges of attempted material support of a terrorist organization — the Islamic State group — and attempted murder of a military member, said Nicholas Biase, a spokesperson for Manhattan federal prosecutors.

The 20-year-old soldier, also known as Cole Gonzales, was with the Third Infantry Division out of Fort Stewart, Georgia, when he thought he was communicating with the Islamic State online about the terrorism plots, Biase said.
posted by nicoffeine at 3:17 PM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


The NYT already both sidesing this shit.
It doesn’t exactly comport with his “regular Joe from Scranton” persona, but beyond the politics of it, the bike could present cybersecurity risks.
BIDEN HAS A PELETON BIKE IS HE OUT OF TOUCH?!? OUR EDITORIAL BOARD OF CONCERNED CENTRISTS EXPLAIN WHY WE SHOULDN'T NECESSARILY REJECT POPULIST FASCISTS OUT OF HAND!
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:27 PM on January 19, 2021 [45 favorites]


For anyone who doesn't care to view or read Trump's farewell address, I'll summarize. Typical political platitudes (thank-yous to his wife, family, and supporters), a brief condemnation of the attack on the capitol, the same lies (and unfortunate truths) about how much he's accomplished in his term, a dash of bullshit about American exceptionalism and "America First", the typical delusional statements about how much he personally sacrificed in order to serve his country, a brief and very thinly veiled whine about his Twitter being banned, and finally, a closing full of God, tradition, unity, and other obvious insincerities.

He did not use the words "Biden," "Impeachment," or "concede".
posted by Room 101 at 3:45 PM on January 19, 2021 [12 favorites]


Is there time to sneak in another Trump family photo op using the White House as a background? Of course there is: Tiffany gets engaged. I'm sure there is much shedding of tears and gnashing of teeth that they won't be able to hold a White House wedding.
posted by sardonyx at 3:46 PM on January 19, 2021


I was just noticing that, if any of the Trumplings should will themselves to the throne in the future, the nickname “Baby Doc” Trump would be gender-neutral.

From cenoxo's article above:
"There are at least three to four identical 'footballs': one follows the president, one follows the vice president, and one traditionally is set aside for the designated survivor at events like inaugurations and State of the Union addresses [...] Donald Trump is president through 11:59:59 am on January 20. Up to that point in time, he has the sole, legal authority to authorize the use of any or all of the US nuclear arsenal," Schwartz said.
Fun nuclear Armageddon fact of the day: the Russian equvalent of the nuclear football is called the Cheget / Чегет, and was actually activated during the 1995 Norwegian rocket incident.

> The mainstream media's motivation will be to maintain the facade that Trump was an aberration (how many times have you already heard or read someone in the media say "this isn't us" or "this isn't America"?)...

Tomorrow there will be rejoicing and Yub Nub like the day when Osama bin Laden was killed. But OBL won, and wished to be martyred; among other things, he paved the way for Trump. And even in Trump's whiny defeated moping down in America's Penis, he'll have won: he's paved the way for the next guy.

You can tell because even the news outlets willing to use the word “insurrection” are now saying something about an “insurrection mob”, and focusing on that. But the insurrection wasn't just the murderous crowds in the capitols, not by far: Trump openly indicated that he would not peacefully surrender power and a noticeable fraction of our leaders failed to say, “you will surrender power, because this is a democracy.” They're part of it too, but they won't even need the pardons the ex-Confederates got.
posted by XMLicious at 3:53 PM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


No nation can long thrive that loses faith in its own values, history, and heroes, for these are the very sources of our unity and our vitality.

This asshole is talking about confederate statues and names on buildings isn't he?


Yep; history and unity are for white people (one of the consequences of the post-reconstruction rapprochement between Northern and Southern whites was the admission of people like Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson to the national pantheon, from whence they are in the process of being rightfully ejected).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:09 PM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]




3. Keep your mouth shut about the guy in the office today.

I predict that's what's finally going to get him thrown in jail if Biden terminates his security access. He (a) knows classified information for which he will sign a termination statement like an NDA, and (b) cannot keep his mouth shut.

Even if he keeps his access, he can no longer talk about that stuff to anyone else he wants. And you know he'll want to criticize so bad.
posted by ctmf at 4:26 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


I got an Amber Alert *during* the insurrection on the 7th.

That's the worst. I learned the hard way as well, to disable amber alerts on my reactor accident response team phone.
posted by ctmf at 4:27 PM on January 19, 2021 [22 favorites]


my reactor accident response team phone

Someday you're going to have to tell us more about that.
posted by biogeo at 4:31 PM on January 19, 2021 [17 favorites]


It's not that exciting. If there's a reactor accident in the western states or Pacific region, I go help. Anywhere else, I stand by as a backup. It did get me bumped up the priority list for the coronavirus vaccine though, from last to not-quite-last.
posted by ctmf at 4:37 PM on January 19, 2021 [18 favorites]


Do any of the legal minds here have information on whether the outgoing double-impeachee will be able to avoid process servers? Can he be served via corporations? After noon tomorrow, what are the service and arrest options for state officials wanting to prosecute tax fraud and election interference?

Also, completely unrelated question for those who know more than me: now that Hawley's obstructing quick approval of Biden's Homeland Security nominee, how long will it likely take to get a vote on Mayorkas?

(It is my hope that McConnell really does want to pivot away from Trumpism and will punish Hawley by removing him from committees - or maybe the Senate will even manage to censure Hawley - but of course, none of us knows how THAT's all going to play out.)
posted by kristi at 4:40 PM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


So when is pardon o'clock? I feel like there is a whole post that could be done around pardons and commutations generally. I was going through the Office of the Pardon Attorney's website and seems like at least one other president in recent history, Bill Clinton, issued pardons / commutations on the 20th on their last half day in office - which is cutting it super fine.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:43 PM on January 19, 2021


After noon tomorrow, what are the service and arrest options for state officials wanting to prosecute tax fraud and election interference?

Will the secret service be allowed to use the bathroom in Jared and Ivanka’s holding cell?
posted by snofoam at 4:47 PM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


It doesn’t exactly comport with his “regular Joe from Scranton” persona, but beyond the politics of it, the bike could present cybersecurity risks.

Is there a law against Peletons in Scranton?
posted by srboisvert at 4:48 PM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


Will the secret service be allowed to use the bathroom in Jared and Ivanka’s holding cell?

Only that one supervisor who destroyed the Obamas' bathroom.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 4:49 PM on January 19, 2021 [9 favorites]


A bit of happy news, from Indian Country Today: "The Native American Women Warriors and TikTok star Nathan “DoggFace” Apodaca will be among the participants in Wednesday’s virtual “Parade Across America” celebrating President-elect Joe Biden’s inauguration."
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:50 PM on January 19, 2021 [22 favorites]


Knowing a little about the politics of Second City improv people, Trump would have the same odds of a cameo on SNL as he would of getting a moderator position at MetaFilter
posted by springo at 5:16 PM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


Donald Trump’s White House note to his successor by National Treasure Alexandra Petri
posted by kirkaracha at 5:17 PM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


Donald Trump’s White House note to his successor by National Treasure Alexandra Petri

You can tell it's fake because Trump would never say "But hindsight is 20/20" and he doesn't know what hindsight is and he's a fascist and polysyllabic words and all the other parts of it too.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 5:19 PM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


Self-styled militia members planned on storming the U.S. Capitol days in advance of Jan. 6 attack, court documents say
Self-styled militia members from Virginia, Ohio and other states made plans to storm the U.S. Capitol days in advance of the Jan. 6 attack, and then communicated in real time as they breached the building on opposite sides and talked about hunting for lawmakers, according to new court documents filed Tuesday.

U.S. authorities charged an apparent Oath Keeper leader, Thomas Edward Caldwell, 66, of Clarke County, Va., in the attack, alleging that the U.S. Navy veteran helped organize a ring of what became 30 or 40 people who “stormed the castle” to disrupt the electoral vote confirmation of President-elect Joe Biden’s victory.
...
“This is the first step toward identifying and understanding that there was some type of concerted conspiracy here,” said one senior official with the U.S. attorney’s office for Washington D.C., which is leading the investigation.
...
In charging papers, the FBI said during the Capital riot, Caldwell received Facebook messages from unspecified senders updating him of the location of lawmakers. When he posted a one-word message, “Inside,” he received exhortations and directions describing tunnels, doors and hallways, the FBI said.

Another message read, “All members are in the tunnels under capital seal them in. Turn on gas,” the FBI added.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:20 PM on January 19, 2021 [19 favorites]


I was discussing some education-related stuff with a friend earlier today... related to the discussion of education in combating QAnon-type conspiracism and information warfare attacks, we were musing whether a return to one particularly retro old tool of pedagogy might be useful: rhetoric as was taught as a discrete subject for thousands of years and was part of the trivium of basic arts in a Classical education.

As public education expanded in the modern era in the Anglosphere it seems to have been subsumed into English and composition curricula, and I get the impression that by the twentieth century it was regarded as a tad aristocratic, in the US at least. But maybe it could come back now that we don't, like, need child labor for harvesting crops and stuff.
posted by XMLicious at 5:29 PM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


Trump provoked deadly Capitol riot, Senate GOP leader Mitch McConnell says

The Republican party is illegitimate. It is the height of irresponsibility and unsuitability for public office for him to chime in like this. Screw you, Mitch.

Trump has to be hung around the necks of Republicans for at least a generation, at least as long as "liberal" was made a dirty word after Carter.
posted by rhizome at 5:31 PM on January 19, 2021 [11 favorites]


Well of course the list of final Trump pardons and commutations will come tonight or even on the morning of the 20th. He wants the final burst of outrage to upstage Biden's inauguration.
posted by PhineasGage at 5:41 PM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


Either that or he is pissy enough that if he doesn’t get a toy, no one gets a toy. (Or pardon.)
posted by susiswimmer at 5:43 PM on January 19, 2021


we were musing whether a return to one particularly retro old tool of pedagogy might be useful: rhetoric as was taught as a discrete subject for thousands of years and was part of the trivium of basic arts in a Classical education.

What will you do with a liberal arts degree? Oh, I don’t know. Not be brainwashed by a death cult & storm the capitol.
posted by clawsoon at 5:45 PM on January 19, 2021 [34 favorites]


Either that or he is pissy enough that if he doesn’t get a toy, no one gets a toy. (Or pardon.)

In one of the articles I read today (maybe posted here? I don't even remember anymore) talking about his inauguration, his aides warned him repeatedly that if he showed up late Mike Pence would become the president for a few minutes and Trump would be the 46th president instead of the 45th. That's how worried they were about him being late for his own inauguration. I gathered from that that he's late for basically everything.
posted by clawsoon at 5:48 PM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


"Do any of the legal minds here have information on whether the outgoing double-impeachee will be able to avoid process servers? "

Hahahahahahahaha, no. That's just for dramatic purposes in movies.

I served process on a guy who'd been dead for 20 years. The law provides multitudinous ways to serve process on people who would rather not be served OR ARE DEAD.

(I was working on having him declared dead so his widow could access widow's benefits.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:48 PM on January 19, 2021 [29 favorites]


I mean, it took a long fucking time to serve the dead guy, but even in death you cannot avoid the majesty of the law, whose wheels grind slowly, but grind exceedingly fine.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:51 PM on January 19, 2021 [11 favorites]


Eyebrows McGee, since you have a legal background, do you have thoughts about the youtuber Legal Eagle? I've found his content interesting to follow and have appreciated the short takes he's been doing since the Capitol Riot to illuminate some of the various legal issues that have come up in the past couple weeks. Today was about whether or not there is precedent on revoking a pardon.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 5:58 PM on January 19, 2021



Liberal Arts you say? "In 2001, he received a Bachelor of Arts in English Literature and Music from the University of Virginia and, in 2003, a Master of Arts in the Humanities from the University of Chicago."

He, in this case, is Richard Spencer.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:59 PM on January 19, 2021 [16 favorites]


I served process on a guy who'd been dead for 20 years.

Dude, we need to party ...
posted by ZenMasterThis at 6:03 PM on January 19, 2021


This is fantastic, but I don't think we live in a world where anyone who needs to see this will actually watch it: Matthew Cooke - A Wake-Up Call to Republicans
posted by Mchelly at 6:06 PM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


I bet the thing Trump is going to miss most about being president is the red button on his desk that he could press causing a butler to appear with a Diet Coke. Trump spent his first month in office showing off to any visitor how he could really "make 'em jump" as Tom Wolfe puts it.

Steven Colbert said that the button turns the Oval Office into an 8-year-old's drawing of a treehouse.
posted by JackFlash at 6:08 PM on January 19, 2021 [11 favorites]


Dale: Reflections on four weird years fact checking every word from Donald Trump - CNNPolitics
Trump's 2017 dishonesty tended to be impromptu ad-libbing. His 2018 dishonesty was much more scripted; he used serial lying as a deliberate strategy in the midterm elections. Then he used serial lying as a deliberate strategy in his 2019 Ukraine scandal. Then he used serial lying as a deliberate strategy in his response to the 2020 coronavirus pandemic -- holding daily "briefings" so wildly dishonest that CNN needed me to go on TV right afterward to debunk the nonsense viewers had just heard.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:16 PM on January 19, 2021 [24 favorites]


... because half of the people who backed Trump have no idea of what brand of authoritarianism they were supporting even when you hand them a checklist -- they don't see it. Historically, a country does not fall in love with that brand of authoritarianism on the first date. They go out a couple of times before it really takes hold. So unless you want to see another Trump, a more capable Trump in four or eight or twelve or sixteen years, we have to completely alter politial discourse and political engagement in this country. We have to plant those seeds ...

Beau of the Fifth Column again: Let's talk about Trump's last 24 hours as President
posted by philip-random at 6:18 PM on January 19, 2021 [12 favorites]


The arc of education bends toward anti-fascism (likely due to reality's oft-remarked-upon list to port), but unfortunately the radius of curvature on that arc is too large to be of much practical use.
posted by Not A Thing at 6:18 PM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


In one of the articles I read today (maybe posted here? I don't even remember anymore) talking about his inauguration, his aides warned him repeatedly that if he showed up late Mike Pence would become the president for a few minutes and Trump would be the 46th president instead of the 45th.

Wait is that really a thing? If so you can't just hand somebody the presidency if you're president unless they're the VP, and I'd imagine Trump wouldn't just automatically become Pence's VP because that's not the ticket that ran, so then I guess Trump would have to be confirmed as Pence's VP and then Pence would have to resign and then Pence would have to be confirmed as Trump's VP? That is wild.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:42 PM on January 19, 2021


Wait is that really a thing?

No, but Trump didn't know that.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:53 PM on January 19, 2021 [12 favorites]


Here's the article: How the First Day of the Trump Presidency Foreshadowed the Four Years to Come
And fear of punctuality was profound enough that Trump’s staff stressed to him that the vice president could theoretically become the acting president for a few minutes if he was late to take the oath of office.

“[H]e loved the number 45, and we said if you’re late, you could in fact be the 46th president,” said the person involved, “and of course he didn’t like that at all so he said he wouldn’t be late.”
posted by clawsoon at 6:57 PM on January 19, 2021 [6 favorites]


Someone in my neighborhood did a bike ride to downtown DC this evening and took some photos and short videos. Here is his youtube video of Pre-Inauguration St John Episcopal Bells Ringing at BLM Plaza NW by the White House. The transition is just starting to feel real.
posted by gudrun at 6:58 PM on January 19, 2021 [8 favorites]


Andrew Restuccia @AndrewRestuccia 12:34 PM · Jan 20, 2021
NEW: Trump has talked to associates in recent days about starting a new party after he leaves the White House.

He wants to call it the Patriot Party.
[WSJ link]
No word on whether Trump's P Party is going to be taped.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:12 PM on January 19, 2021 [41 favorites]


I'm surprised he kept up his dues.

SAG-AFTRA Board Moves to Expel Donald Trump (thewrap.com)
Impeachment isn’t the only thing Donald Trump could face as he leaves office. On Tuesday, the national board of SAG-AFTRA announced that it will hold a disciplinary hearing against the outgoing president, where he could face expulsion from the actors’ guild.

The board made the move to hold the hearing after a request from SAG-AFTRA President Gabrielle Carteris, who cited the U.S. Capitol attack on Jan. 6 and Trump’s role in inciting the attack as grounds for expulsion.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:13 PM on January 19, 2021 [16 favorites]


"SAG-AFTRA Board Moves to Expel Donald Trump (thewrap.com)"


It didn't say so in the article but would this have an effect on receiving residuals?
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 7:20 PM on January 19, 2021


Why do I feel like a kid on Xmas Eve...?
posted by PhineasGage at 7:24 PM on January 19, 2021 [13 favorites]


Meanwhile in Crazyland, Donald Trump's supporters think he will be declaring Martial Law and becoming President for Life any minute now.

I expect we'll hear him doing it Michael Scott-style at Andrews tomorrow. "I DECLARE MARTIAL LAW!" "HELLO?" "WHY AREN'T THEY BOWING?"
posted by mmoncur at 7:25 PM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


It didn't say so in the article but would this have an effect on receiving residuals?

Sadly, no. Just any work going forward.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:25 PM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


The board made the move to hold the hearing after a request from SAG-AFTRA President Gabrielle Carteris, who cited the U.S. Capitol attack on Jan. 6 and Trump’s role in inciting the attack as grounds for expulsion.

Honestly? Disappointed. Too little too late, Gabrielle.

And I hope it affects residuals, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
posted by sundrop at 7:28 PM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


Probably no SAG-AFTRA retirement plan or benefits, right? Or (irony alert!) health insurance.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:30 PM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


GOP leaders skip Trump send-off in favor of church with Biden
Congressional leaders, including House GOP leader Kevin McCarthy and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, will skip President Trump's departure ceremony in Maryland tomorrow morning in favor of attending mass with incoming President Joe Biden ahead of his inauguration, congressional sources familiar with their plans tell Axios.
posted by clawsoon at 7:42 PM on January 19, 2021 [20 favorites]


There was some discussion above about whether Trump could make secret pardons which don't get revealed until someone is charged. Looks like the answer is no, according to the DOJ's FAQ:
Presidential grants are a matter of public record, so immediately after Presidential action, the name of each person granted a pardon or commutation, along with the district they were convicted, year of sentencing, offense, and the date the President granted their request is publicly listed on the Office of the Pardon Attorney website. This information may also be posted on The White House website and included in press releases issued by the Department or The White House.

Moreover, ... the Office of the Pardon Attorney is obliged to release existing lists of the names of persons who have been denied executive clemency by the President to anyone who requests such records pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act. Given the frequency of such requests, the Office of the Pardon Attorney has started to proactively disclose the names of persons who have been denied executive clemency by the President on our website, in accordance with our Freedom of Information Act obligations.
posted by clawsoon at 7:49 PM on January 19, 2021 [14 favorites]


I would love it so much if there were zero news crews at Trump's send-off. I know that won't happen but I feel kind of sorry for the reporters who will get stuck covering that instead of the Inauguration.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 7:53 PM on January 19, 2021 [10 favorites]


I'm surprised he kept up his dues.

He probably pinched it from one of his charities.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 7:55 PM on January 19, 2021 [9 favorites]


"SAG-AFTRA Board Moves to Expel Donald Trump

"Has anyone ever told you that you'd look great, really great in a comb over?"
posted by philip-random at 8:01 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


I hope the comedian who does the visit from her future self to her current self does a 2021 episode. So much new material . . . (can't remember her name).
posted by jointhedance at 8:02 PM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


She is Julie Nolke
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 8:05 PM on January 19, 2021 [15 favorites]


Republican Fundraising and the Case of the Missing Trump
If you have been on Republican fundraising email lists the past several years — even if, like me, you have never given a penny to Donald Trump’s campaigns — you are familiar not only with the regular deluge of such emails, but also with the ubiquity of Trump and the Trump family in the sender line, subject line, text, and merchandise offered in such emails. Trump is everywhere. Until now: Suddenly, he’s gone. After noticing this pattern, I went through my inbox (even the spam folder) and counted up the fundraising emails from official GOP sources since January 7, the day after the Capitol riot. What isn’t said speaks volumes...

In just under two weeks, 201 emails, of which at most eight mentioned Trump, and a few of those only obliquely. Even emails pounding away at social-media bans talk about banning “conservatives,” not Trump himself. Jake Tapper of CNN is mentioned in more of these emails than Trump is. I also saw zero examples of Trump merchandise referenced in any of these emails...

Few things are more directly aimed at the tribal id of political partisans than fundraising pitches via direct mail and email. If rank-and-file Republican donors are more likely to respond favorably than unfavorably to mentions of the president, you’d expect to see that. If my inbox is at all representative, Trump’s absence speaks volumes about what the fundraising professionals are seeing in the mood of the party.
posted by clawsoon at 8:05 PM on January 19, 2021 [15 favorites]


NEW: Trump has talked to associates in recent days about starting a new party after he leaves the White House.

He wants to call it the Patriot Party.




Oh pleasepleasepleasepleasePLEEEEEEEASE!
posted by darkstar at 8:12 PM on January 19, 2021 [23 favorites]


He wants to call it the Patriot Party

Fitting, considering that the original Know Nothings called themselves the American Party; another case of history not repeating but rhyming.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:19 PM on January 19, 2021 [8 favorites]


You know, in less than 24 hours, we are going to be sifting through possibly dozens of Day One Executive Orders that Biden has said he’d sign.

DACA restoration. Pausing deportations. Ending the emergency construction of the Wall. Reversing the Muslim travel ban. Elimination of the ban on transgender persons in the military. Extending the moratorium on evictions and foreclosures. Extending the suspension of student loan payments.

It’s going to feel pretty amazing, even if it’s only a start.
posted by darkstar at 8:38 PM on January 19, 2021 [31 favorites]


Meanwhile, via CNN: Trump pardons Bannon.
President Donald Trump has decided to pardon his former chief strategist Steve Bannon, in a last-minute decision made only hours before he is scheduled to depart the White House for a final time.

...Bannon faces a federal case that began in August when New York federal prosecutors charged him and three others with defrauding donors of more than a million dollars as part of a fundraising campaign purportedly aimed at supporting Trump's border wall.
posted by darkstar at 8:44 PM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


Not too surprising. I'm pretty sure that there will be a bunch of others, no matter what the lawyers say. I expect he'll try a self-pardon too -- not like there's a downside for him there.
posted by tavella at 8:49 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


The Biden administration is going to declassify the Khashoggi Report. I hope they shine a big, bright light on the Trump administration's work to sweep the murder under the rug, too.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:53 PM on January 19, 2021 [28 favorites]




I would love it so much if there were zero news crews at Trump's send-off. I know that won't happen but I feel kind of sorry for the reporters who will get stuck covering that instead of the Inauguration.

I have a fantasy where Trump dawdles about Air Force One after landing in Florida, glad-handing his toadies, sucking up to the reporters on hand,and semi-acknowledging the “help”. All in a pathetic attempt to delay disembarking and losing that last presidential perk.

In my head, he hangs around so long that, at 12:01 pm, the pilot exits the cockpit, marches up to Trump and — while pointing at the door — simply says, “Get off my plane.”

I know that isn’t how it will go down but goddamn the thought of it makes me feel good.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:09 PM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


So far for the playlist:
Europe, "The Final Countdown"
Barry Manilow, ”Looks Like We Made It"
Nina Simone, "Feeling Good"
Beatles, "Here Comes the Sun"
Jimmy Cliff, "I Can See Clearly Now"
Other suggestions?
posted by PhineasGage at 9:10 PM on January 19, 2021 [6 favorites]


Bannon faces a federal case that began in August when New York federal prosecutors charged him and three others with defrauding donors of more than a million dollars as part of a fundraising campaign purportedly aimed at supporting Trump's border wall.

I wonder if state AGs (A's G?) can still bring fraud charges on this?
posted by jason_steakums at 9:10 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]




That's how worried they were about him being late for his own inauguration. I gathered from that that he's late for basically everything.

Of course he is. It's a dickhead power flex move. The person who can arrive latest and hold up the show is the most important. The one who can make everyone wait, not the one who has to wait. It means you're a loser if you're sitting there waiting for someone else to arrive, so you SURE the hell can't get there early.

What they were telling him with the 46th thing, in Trump-ego-language, is they will start without you. (Which is even more loser-like and shameful than being there early.)
posted by ctmf at 9:16 PM on January 19, 2021 [10 favorites]


Stones, “NO Sympathy for the Devil”
posted by cenoxo at 9:17 PM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


Hit the Road, Jack [Fake - real footage with new sound]
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 9:26 PM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


For Trump's departure ceremony:

Mr. T Experience: So Long Sucker
Ramones: Glad To See You Go
Users: Sick of You
Hit the Road Jack from either Residents or Ray
posted by gtrwolf at 9:45 PM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]




Pardon list is up.

No Trump kids, no Tiger King, no Giuliani.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:04 PM on January 19, 2021 [10 favorites]


no few words are ever going to do justice to the clown apocalypse of the past four or whatever years. Nevertheless a couple of things are percolating to the surface for me right now.

1. if the Trump unprecedency has been a fractured fairy tale, it's the Emperor's New Clothes. Hardly a fresh idea even four years ago but it nevertheless hangs there like a fart in an elevator. Impossible to ignore or escape. It is, of course, more complicated in reality, there being at least two acts to go after the little kid points at the Emperor and says in his outdoor voice, "Mommy, why is that man not wearing any clothes?" Because no, everybody doesn't suddenly come to their senses and wisdom prevails. Quite the opposite. The believers even try to pull off a fascist coup before it's done. "How dare you call me stupid? I'll show you stupid!"

2. If there's a single Bob Dylan song that speaks to it all, it's Idiot Wind. Not word for word, but no Dylan lyric since at least 1965 works that way. More in reflection and refraction and deflection (and other words that end with "ion" including distortion) ... and in the world weary complicity of the vocal -- "we're idiots, babe. It's a wonder we can even feed ourselves." It takes a nation of 300+ millions to pull off whatever the fuck just happened ...
posted by philip-random at 10:07 PM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


... This commutation is strongly supported by prominent members of the Detroit community, Alveda King, Alice Johnson, Diamond and Silk, Pastor Paula White, Peter Karmanos, Representative Sherry Gay-Dagnogo of the Michigan House of Representatives, Representative Karen Whitsett of the Michigan House of Representatives, and more than 30 faith leaders. ...

Presented without comment.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 10:08 PM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


Just a bunch of shitty people, Could be worae...
posted by Windopaene at 10:09 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


Broidy's in there, though. Guess Giuliani didn't grovel/pay enough!
posted by tavella at 10:10 PM on January 19, 2021


Lil Wayne got his pardon.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 10:11 PM on January 19, 2021


I like how they call Lil Wayne 'Mr. Carter' at first, then later in the same paragraph it's 'Mr. Wayne'
posted by ctmf at 10:26 PM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


Olivia Nuzzi reviews MyPillow.
posted by darkstar at 10:34 PM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


I think we know who wrote this particular blurb:
Paul Erickson – President Trump has issued a full pardon to Paul Erikson. This pardon is supported by Kellyanne Conway. Mr. Erickson’s conviction was based off the Russian collusion hoax. After finding no grounds to charge him with any crimes with respect to connections with Russia, he was charged with a minor financial crime. Although the Department of Justice sought a lesser sentence, Mr. Erickson was sentenced to 7 years’ imprisonment—nearly double the Department of Justice’s recommended maximum sentence. This pardon helps right the wrongs of what has been revealed to be perhaps the greatest witch hunt in American History.
posted by bcd at 10:43 PM on January 19, 2021 [5 favorites]


That's exceptionally tacky. Just say he's pardoned, this isn't a campaign event.
posted by ctmf at 10:50 PM on January 19, 2021 [7 favorites]


I have to admit, it would have been kind of funny if he'd preemptively pardoned Hillary Clinton for a bunch of made-up crimes.
posted by ctmf at 11:00 PM on January 19, 2021 [11 favorites]


Ugh. And at the recommendation of Peter Thiel, it looks like Uber/Waymo huckster Anthony Levandowski also got pardoned.

In case you missed that whole episode, here's a choice quote from him in the New Yorker:

“The only thing that matters is the future,” he told me after the civil trial was settled. “I don’t even know why we study history. It’s entertaining, I guess—the dinosaurs and the Neanderthals and the Industrial Revolution, and stuff like that. But what already happened doesn’t really matter. You don’t need to know that history to build on what they made. In technology, all that matters is tomorrow.”
posted by thechameleon at 11:04 PM on January 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


It's pretty unbelievable we're talking about the rehabilitation of Trump in the future tense.

It has always been an active, continual process since day one, and is at this moment ongoing.
posted by runcifex at 11:56 PM on January 19, 2021 [4 favorites]


I agree with the folks above that, for all the efforts being made, we're ultimately in little danger of a successful Bush-like rehabilitation (much less reelection) of Trump (and let's face it, would the Bushes have been "rehabilitated" if someone worse hadn't come along?). That said, we'd probably face far more danger from Mike Pompeo (who apparently has his own presidential aspirations), since he shares some of the "attributes" that'd appeal to Trumpists without having the baggage of actually being Trump, and has (so far) escaped the stigma of his earlier voter fraud claims (at least compared to Cruz, Hawley, etc.).
posted by gtrwolf at 11:59 PM on January 19, 2021


A side note, but Taking Cara Babies, a popular sleep training method that cribs heavily from Ferber and others and charges a pretty penny, has been outed as donating to Trump(Reddit) and the fall out is amazing.
posted by freethefeet at 1:18 AM on January 20, 2021 [4 favorites]


The Biden administration is going to declassify the Khashoggi Report. I hope they shine a big, bright light on the Trump administration's work to sweep the murder under the rug, too.

If we are talking ponies now, I'd like to see the unredacted Mueller Report, the full record of justice department interference in the Mueller Report instigations and the full details of the constraints the FBI were operating under during the Kavanaugh sexual assault investigation.
posted by srboisvert at 1:32 AM on January 20, 2021 [25 favorites]


Australia's contribution to the Trump departure ceremony: The Angels - Am I Ever Gonna See Your Face Again
posted by valetta at 2:15 AM on January 20, 2021 [8 favorites]


Awe, James Corden made me cry, and I needed that. I don't think I'll be completely relaxed before tonight, but this is probably a good day.

If we are talking ponies now, I'd like to see the unredacted Mueller Report, the full record of justice department interference in the Mueller Report instigations and the full details of the constraints the FBI were operating under during the Kavanaugh sexual assault investigation.

We really need this. Call your congresspeople, Americans!
posted by mumimor at 2:28 AM on January 20, 2021






side note, but Taking Cara Babies, a popular sleep training method that cribs heavily from Ferber and others and charges a pretty penny, has been outed as donating to Trump(Reddit) and the fall out is amazing.

Oh maaaaaaan! I paid for her newborn course. It was.... not great. One of her tips uses an acronym S.I.T. B.A.C.K. The “C” stands for another acronym “C.R.I.E.S”. I kid you not. Let me tell you, it’s pretty difficult to remember what any of this stands for at 2:30 am when your screaming baby won’t go back to sleep.

Not a paid ad, but I’ve been using the Huckleberry app and I paid for a couple consultation from them and it’s been waaaaaay better. Got a totally bespoke plan from them. And their free version of the app gives me predictive nap times which have been UNCANNY. Like, he falls asleep almost to the minute they predict. TIn contrast to my first baby, we’ve got number 2 going down for sleep independently at 14 weeks! Highly recommend.

Bye cara. You’ll be getting a refund request from me soon (I don’t expect it to be honoured but they will know how I feel about her politics).
posted by like_neon at 2:51 AM on January 20, 2021 [9 favorites]


like_neon, I looked up Alexis Dubief of Precious Little Sleep- donations to Act Blue.
posted by freethefeet at 3:05 AM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


"One of her tips uses an acronym S.I.T. B.A.C.K. The “C” stands for another acronym “C.R.I.E.S”. I kid you not."

Nested acronyms? W.T.F.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 3:13 AM on January 20, 2021 [7 favorites]


I think Georgia is getting real tired of me loudly telling her "less than x hours!" every couple of hours for the past two days. It makes me a bit sad that it's more about Twitler's departure than Biden's inauguration, but whatever. I can be happy about Biden once ***** is gone. Never mind that he'll be closer, I choose to believe he'll be forcibly relocated to New York before the next time I'm anywhere near Palm Beach.
posted by wierdo at 3:34 AM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


like_neon, I looked up Alexis Dubief of Precious Little Sleep- donations to Act Blue.

Ha! That book got us through Baby 1! (Was it you freethefeet that recommended it to me??)

I don’t know if the Huckleberry app has any political leanings but in a comparison between Cara and Precious Little Sleep, it’s amusing to posit that lefty approaches to baby sleep are more effective.
posted by like_neon at 3:35 AM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


C-SPAN's Capitol Hill Live Camera Feed has started. It's almost like being there!
posted by Umami Dearest at 4:55 AM on January 20, 2021 [2 favorites]


C-SPAN — Trump and Melania boarding Marine One, taking off...
posted by cenoxo at 5:18 AM on January 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


...leaving Washington for the last time!
posted by cenoxo at 5:19 AM on January 20, 2021 [5 favorites]


Marine One landed at Joint Base Andrews, Trump boarding Air Force One soon...
posted by cenoxo at 5:30 AM on January 20, 2021


Will speak at a departure ceremony...
posted by cenoxo at 5:33 AM on January 20, 2021


BYEEEEEEEEEEEE FELICIA!
posted by like_neon at 5:33 AM on January 20, 2021 [2 favorites]


Well, I was accidentally in the previous thread because this one's not yet sidebarred so I washed up in there by mistake, but realised it was WAY too quiet in there so I must be in the wrong place! So I just have to say it again here to mark the moment, albeit now a bit late:

And Trump has left the White House.

CNN: "He looks small. He just looks like a small man."

I'm trying to think of something pithy to say but I guess there's no need to gild the lily. He's gone.
posted by penguin pie at 5:34 AM on January 20, 2021 [8 favorites]


21 gun salute, now speaking...
posted by cenoxo at 5:36 AM on January 20, 2021


“We were not a regular administration.”...
posted by cenoxo at 5:38 AM on January 20, 2021


The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the white zone...
posted by Mchelly at 5:39 AM on January 20, 2021 [9 favorites]


I feel like I'm sitting next to a senior relative with cognitive decline in a rest home, listening to the general meaningless burble of words that spills from a mind that remembers speech as an instinct but has lost the ability to attach meaning to words.
posted by penguin pie at 5:46 AM on January 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


“The future of this country has never been better.” Saying goodbye to family, now boarding Air Force One...
posted by cenoxo at 5:46 AM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


One of her tips uses an acronym S.I.T. B.A.C.K. The “C” stands for another acronym “C.R.I.E.S”.

I do hope the S in C.R.I.E.S stands for S.I.T.B.A.C.K. and the new parent is swept helplessly into an infinite recurring loop of acronym.

(Sorry, sorry. I'm just bored of Trump now, and he was a tedious little man to begin with. I hope the British media start talking about our own political culture rather than relying on endless yammering about the leader of a foreign country.)
posted by Grangousier at 5:48 AM on January 20, 2021 [6 favorites]


Surely this?
posted by gnuhavenpier at 5:48 AM on January 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


I hope this is like when a really bad movie has a laughably pretentious post-credits scene where the villain tells the audience that he'll be back even though everyone knows there will never be a sequel because the movie was so terrible.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:51 AM on January 20, 2021 [22 favorites]


It was painful to watch him speak. All the lies, the gaslighting bullshit (don't get mad when they raise your taxes F*** YOU YOUR PLAN WAS PURPOSELY SET UP TO INCREASE TAXES THE NEXT FEW YEARS), it's overwhelming. He's a cancer on this country and will continue to be unfortunately.

But he is gone from the White House, from Washington. It still doesn't feel real, but it's starting to get more so. We're slowly getting the abuser-in-chief out of our lives, he won't get this amount of attention ever again. And I really, really hope I never force myself to sit through him speaking again.
posted by andruwjones26 at 5:53 AM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


Family boarding, hatch closed, there goes the red carpet...
posted by cenoxo at 5:54 AM on January 20, 2021


At last, he's off to his true home: the state where rich old racists go to die.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:56 AM on January 20, 2021 [7 favorites]


Air Force One taking off, en route to Florida. Wave goodbye (in your preferred manner) everyone!
posted by cenoxo at 5:57 AM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


Why is "My Way" playing???
posted by all about eevee at 5:58 AM on January 20, 2021


Wave goodbye (in your preferred manner) everyone!

A thousand MeFi middle fingers raise to the sky...
posted by penguin pie at 5:58 AM on January 20, 2021 [9 favorites]


Why is "My Way" playing???

Because both Elvis and Sinatra are dead and can't object?
posted by clawsoon at 5:59 AM on January 20, 2021 [9 favorites]


Air Force One: “A planeload of grievances, of grudges” - CNN
posted by penguin pie at 6:00 AM on January 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


And the perfect outro: The CNN presenters barely smothering their giggles at the triteness of the final line of My Way being delivered just as the wheels leave the tarmac... and cut to the the church where the Bidens stand in their pews.
posted by penguin pie at 6:02 AM on January 20, 2021 [5 favorites]


I follow a lot of a Brits on Twitter and my timeline is full of “Go on, off you fuck.”

I love Brits.
posted by like_neon at 6:03 AM on January 20, 2021 [8 favorites]


BYE DON
posted by Ahmad Khani at 6:04 AM on January 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


CNN reports that 45 left a letter. I'm DYING to find out what is in it.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 6:05 AM on January 20, 2021 [8 favorites]


It might be a P.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:06 AM on January 20, 2021 [7 favorites]


Whew, that pardon list.

Kodak Black, Lil Wayne, Steve Bannon, Elliott Broidy, Paul Erickson ('This pardon helps right the wrongs of what has been revealed to be perhaps the greatest witch hunt in American History.'), Kwame Kilpatrick (supported by Diamond and Silk), a few congresspeople, somebody who got caught up in that Lori Laughlin Varsity Blues thing, and some guy who did business with someone nicknamed 'Cobra King.'

I'm looking forward to reading some deep dives into these pardons. Lot of fraudsters, lots of drug conspirators. There's John Knock:
Mr. Knock is a 73 year-old man, a first-time, non-violent marijuana only offender, who has served 24 years of a life sentence.
And you may ask yourself, how do you get a life sentence on a first-time marijuana charge? By being involved in a 'massive conspiracy.'

On preview: wait, they played 'My Way,' and it wasn't the Sex Pistols version? That's not how I remember the end of Goodfellas.
posted by box at 6:07 AM on January 20, 2021 [8 favorites]


>>> He wants to call it the Patriot Party.

>> Oh pleasepleasepleasepleasePLEEEEEEEASE!

> Fitting, considering that the original Know Nothings called themselves the American Party; another case of history not repeating but rhyming.

Perhaps part of darkstar's enthusiasm is also over the possibility of a trademark dispute with the NFL?

In any case, everybody be sure to upload lots of NFL-licensed images into their social media feeds, and direct lots of Patriot Party stuff to NFL accounts and “accidentally” ask political questions.
posted by XMLicious at 6:08 AM on January 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


Air Force One taking off, en route to Florida.

This is the moment Donald Trump truly became President.
posted by mmoncur at 6:12 AM on January 20, 2021 [22 favorites]


I just listened to the top of the hour NPR newscast for the first time in... years? No longer will I have to worry about being sandbagged by a clip of Trump's voice without a content warning first.
posted by PhineasGage at 6:13 AM on January 20, 2021 [6 favorites]


>Air Force One taking off, en route to Florida.

This is the moment Donald Trump truly became President.


Increasingly isolated.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:14 AM on January 20, 2021 [7 favorites]


I follow a lot of a Brits on Twitter and my timeline is full of “Go on, off you fuck.” I love Brits.

I'd love to recommend British playwright Lucy Prebble for her excellent Twitter commentary today but tragically she seems to have protected her tweets, so some highlights from the past 20 minutes:

- I've had dreams more coherent than this, tonally.

- Is that Sinatra's My Way? The funeral choice of the c***? [not starred in the original]

- hahahahaha they can't help laughing this is fucking hilarious

- If one of those military guards goes from salute to middle finger I will pay all their legal fees.

- You know Trump spent his last few days describing that My Way take-off juxtaposition, singing it with an arm action for the plane.
posted by penguin pie at 6:16 AM on January 20, 2021 [5 favorites]


TIRED: leaving on a helicopter
WIRED: Whirly This
posted by cortex at 6:17 AM on January 20, 2021 [17 favorites]


Biden Inauguration Countdown Clock
posted by cenoxo at 6:18 AM on January 20, 2021


So… is this the inauguration thread? The tail end of a 1,000 comment thread?
posted by Ahmad Khani at 6:24 AM on January 20, 2021


I think there's a plan to post a legit inauguration thread closer to 12 so it doesn't immediately fill up with chat before anything even happens.
posted by rikschell at 6:28 AM on January 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


It is quite on-brand for Mefi's first two posts on inauguration day to be a post about niche online communities and a single-link post about fossilised dinosaur buttholes.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:33 AM on January 20, 2021 [14 favorites]


For the rest of our lives, we should amend his title to Republican President Donald Trump. He had Sleepy Joe. We should always and forever call him Republican Don.
posted by nushustu at 6:36 AM on January 20, 2021 [5 favorites]


And back to reality.

Part of the unprecedented security effort in Washington today is explained in: The Ultimate Guide To Surveillance Aircraft Available To Help Safeguard The Inauguration — Joe Biden's inauguration will be historic for a number of reasons, likely including the sheer number of surveillance aircraft orbiting above it., The War Zone, Tyler Rogoway & Joseph Trevithick, 1/19/2021.
posted by cenoxo at 6:38 AM on January 20, 2021


Based on comments, I made a new post. Mods, please adjust (delete, recreate, etc) or attribute to someone more deserving than me.

https://www.metafilter.com/190079/Surely-this
posted by nicoffeine at 6:39 AM on January 20, 2021 [10 favorites]


@jaketapper On his way out the door, Trump revokes his own executive order 13770 banning Trump administration officials from lobbying for five years.

Thought this was a joke, but of course not. In case there was still any doubt about where he stood on swamps.
posted by p3t3 at 6:42 AM on January 20, 2021 [11 favorites]


We should always and forever call him Republican Don.

Mafia Don. Or Donnie the Mouth.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 6:42 AM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


Hey! You're deserving. And thank you.
posted by lauranesson at 6:42 AM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


(nicoffeine, thank you for putting that post up - taz just posted posted an inauguration thread with more extensive links, so we ended up deleting yours to consolidate, but you are more than worthy!)
posted by LobsterMitten at 6:47 AM on January 20, 2021 [8 favorites]


No worries! Per the mod request there, I have created a MetaTalk thread. I'll link it when it goes live.
posted by nicoffeine at 6:51 AM on January 20, 2021 [6 favorites]


Surely this...
Come join the celebration!
posted by nicoffeine at 6:52 AM on January 20, 2021 [8 favorites]


As Trump exits Washington, he tells modest crowd, ‘We will be back in some form’

Can't even muster "Nixon flashing V-sign" energy for his last quasi-official act as President.

As for what form... might I suggest Pog?
posted by tonycpsu at 6:59 AM on January 20, 2021 [5 favorites]


I've been meditating more on Trump's use of the word "luck" in his video address yesterday (went back and read the transcript) and then he used it again this morning on the way out the door.
"We extend our best wishes, and we also want them to have luck — a very important word."
Does Trump believe that all the bad shit that went down in 2020 (thanks to him and his administration) was simply a bad hand of cards dealt by Fate?
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:06 AM on January 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


CBS's inauguration coverage said that Officer Eugene Goodman (←previous megathread links) has just been promoted to Deputy Something (I didn't catch the full title) and is overseeing part of the inauguration security from a very publicly-positioned post, and all of the anchors knew who he was and cheered, but I'm not finding any Google or other search engine hits yet with details.
posted by XMLicious at 7:20 AM on January 20, 2021 [10 favorites]


Air Force One taking off, en route to Florida.

This is the moment Donald Trump truly became President.

Increasingly isolated.


A new tone!

It's a gong.
posted by srboisvert at 7:28 AM on January 20, 2021 [2 favorites]


As Trump exits Washington, he tells modest crowd, ‘We will be back in some form’

Shit, I knew it. This isn't even his final form.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:35 AM on January 20, 2021 [16 favorites]


Inauguration coverage is panning over places the insurrectionists went through and pointing out how much has been cleaned up, replaced and repaired... anyone know if some of the broken glass and other architectural salvage was grabbed for museums in time, like with pieces of the Berlin Wall? Googling isn't giving me anything.
posted by XMLicious at 7:46 AM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


@CBSNews: "Eugene Goodman, the Capitol Police officer who led rioters away from the Senate chamber, will escort Kamala Harris at the inauguration as the new acting deputy House Sergeant at Arms, @NorahODonnell reports"
posted by Pronoiac at 7:51 AM on January 20, 2021 [19 favorites]


Inauguration news and commentary thread - Biden / Harris Inauguration

Inauguration news and commentary thread - Biden / Harris Inauguration

Inauguration news and commentary thread - Biden / Harris Inauguration

Inauguration news and commentary thread - Biden / Harris Inauguration

Inauguration news and commentary thread - Biden / Harris Inauguration

Inauguration news and commentary thread - Biden / Harris Inauguration

Inauguration news and commentary thread - Biden / Harris Inauguration

Inauguration news and commentary thread - Biden / Harris Inauguration

Inauguration news and commentary thread - Biden / Harris Inauguration

Inauguration news and commentary thread - Biden / Harris Inauguration

Exhalation and celebration MetaTalk thread - Surely this...

Exhalation and celebration MetaTalk thread - Surely this...

Exhalation and celebration MetaTalk thread - Surely this...

Exhalation and celebration MetaTalk thread - Surely this...

Exhalation and celebration MetaTalk thread - Surely this...

Exhalation and celebration MetaTalk thread - Surely this...

Exhalation and celebration MetaTalk thread - Surely this...
posted by MattWPBS at 8:03 AM on January 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


Does Trump believe that all the bad shit that went down in 2020 (thanks to him and his administration) was simply a bad hand of cards dealt by Fate?

It's not an unreasonable belief, 'cause hadad COVID-19 not occurred, he probably would have been re-elected.

That thought is troubling for sure.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:05 AM on January 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


anyone know if some of the broken glass and other architectural salvage was grabbed for museums in time

Jane Campbell, president of the U.S. Capitol Historical Society, is reportedly collecting some of the debris as historical reminders of the events of January 6th.
The Hill
WaPo
posted by Avelwood at 8:09 AM on January 20, 2021 [4 favorites]


Donald Trump arrives in South Florida with Joe Biden’s inaugural ceremony under way, Miami Herald, David Smiley & Martin Herald, David Smiley & Martin Vassolo, January 20, 2021.

Full security detail, street closures planned for Trump's final arrival, CBS12 News (West Palm Beach, FL), Jay O’Brien, January 18, 2021.
posted by cenoxo at 8:49 AM on January 20, 2021


Joe Biden is sworn in.
posted by cenoxo at 8:49 AM on January 20, 2021




I haven't finished my drink yet!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:59 AM on January 20, 2021 [8 favorites]


Just keeping an eye on EX-President Donald: he can’t be trusted, you know?
posted by cenoxo at 9:03 AM on January 20, 2021 [4 favorites]


🥂🍾
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:04 AM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


Why is "My Way" playing???

Because both Elvis and Sinatra are dead and can't object?


for the record, Paul Anka wrote it and he's still in the game.
posted by philip-random at 9:18 AM on January 20, 2021 [2 favorites]


🥛🍪🍪🎈
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 9:23 AM on January 20, 2021 [5 favorites]


Paul Anka wrote the words. The song is actually Comme d'habitude by Claude François. Bowie is reputed to have written his own (more faithful version).

(I have a problem with cheesy American lyrics on French songs, not that this is my favourite French song by a long shot, but if you can find the Arena documentary about My Way, it's worth watching, but I can't find it on YouTube. Don't get me started on the Schuman and McKuen Jacques Brel translations.)
posted by Grangousier at 10:30 AM on January 20, 2021 [2 favorites]


(Incidentally, Wikipedia tells us that the original lyrics to Comme d'habitude are "about routine in a relationship that is falling out of love". So hugely appropriate for Donnie's send-off, then.)
posted by Grangousier at 10:32 AM on January 20, 2021


Is there a video edit of just the parts where Trump leaves and after he lands in Fla?

As this thread trails off, and so as not to pollute pristine non-Trump threads, I'm predicting that Trump stays in Mar-a-Lago longer than the three non-consecutive weeks he agreed to with Palm Beach, or the state of Florida, or whoever. Which is to say there should be some fresh Trump news in exactly a week!

My long-shot cake-able prediction is that he leverages that conflict into a Supreme Court case that foments a second insurrection.
posted by rhizome at 10:53 AM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


As Trump exits Washington, he tells modest crowd, ‘We will be back in some form’

Shit, I knew it. This isn't even his final form.


He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the Rectification of the Vuldrinii, the Traveller came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the Meketrex supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Sloar! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Sloar that day, I can tell you!
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:19 PM on January 20, 2021 [19 favorites]


I couldn't help it. It just popped in there.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:11 PM on January 20, 2021 [6 favorites]


It's the Staypuff marshmallow man...
posted by Windopaene at 2:19 PM on January 20, 2021 [2 favorites]


Trump extended Secret Service protection to his adult children, three top officials as he left office, CHRON, (Carol D. Leonnig and Nick Miroff, The Washington Post, Updated: Jan. 20, 2021 6:59 p.m.)
WASHINGTON - In the days before he left office, President Donald Trump instructed that his family get the best security available in the world for the next six months at no cost to them - the protection of the U.S. Secret Service.

According to three people briefed on the plan, Trump issued a directive to extend post-presidency Secret Service protection to his four adult children and two of their spouses, who were not automatically entitled to receive it.

Trump also directed that three key aides leaving government continue to receive the protection for six months: former treasury secretary Steven Mnuchin, former chief of staff Mark Meadows and former national security adviser Robert O'Brien, two people familiar with the arrangement said.

Under federal law, Trump, his wife, Melania Trump, and their 14-year-old son are the only members of his immediate family entitled to Secret Service protection after they leave office. The couple will receive it for their lifetimes, and Barron is entitled to protection until he turns 16....
The grift goes on, but who is Trump afraid of now? The Democrats are just happy that he’s gone.
posted by cenoxo at 10:37 PM on January 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


Will Trump keep getting intelligence briefings? Who decides? — Presidents typically continue to receive intelligence briefings after they leave office, but some officials say that’s not a good idea in Trump’s case., Fast Company, Arianne Cohen, 1/20/2021:
It’s hard to transition from one day knowing the world’s intelligence secrets to the next day being all alone in America, pocketing $400,000 speaking fees and tens of millions in book deal cash. To soften the blow, former presidents continue to receive intelligence briefings and access to classified information. Except today’s outgoing president is . . . different. Here are a few things to know as Donald Trump leaves the White House for the last time.

WILL PRIVATE CITIZEN TRUMP CONTINUE TO GET INTELLIGENCE BRIEFINGS?
People in the know hope not. Last week Susan M. Gordon, who was Trump’s principal deputy director of intelligence from 2017-2019, penned an op-ed in the Washington Post suggesting that to do so would be a grave security risk. House Intelligence Chair Adam Schiff also says hell-to-the-no, pointing out that U.S. allies withheld intelligence from Trump and his people because they “didn’t trust the president.” Ex-FBI director James Comey also said he thinks it would be a bad idea.

SO WHO DECIDES?
It’s up to President Joe Biden....
More details in the article. Say it ain’t so, Joe!
posted by cenoxo at 11:29 PM on January 20, 2021


Can Trump Really Issue Secret Pardons for Himself and His Family?, Mediaite, Tommy Christopher, 1/20/2021:
Outgoing President Donald Trump and his family were not among the 143 11th-hour pardons issued shortly after midnight on Trump’s last day in office, leading many to fret that he could still issue secret “pocket pardons” that only come to light when the recipients are charged with crimes.

The flurry of pardons had some breathing a sigh of relief that Trump hadn’t included himself in this latest batch, and while others noted that the day was still young, MSNBC host and Congress Nerd Lawrence O’Donnell raised another concern. “Don’t trust the list,” O’Donnell wrote. “Trump doesn’t have to reveal the names of anyone he pardons. Trump can issue SECRET PARDONS. Trump can pardon himself & his family and keep that secret until they are charged with federal crimes.”

O’Donnell isn’t alone in this concern. MSNBC legal analyst Glenn Kirschner wrote that secret pardons “are reprehensible but there is no legal requirement of which I am aware that they be made public in order to be valid.”

Former Nixon White House Counsel John Dean raised the possibility of a “pocket pardon” as well....
Others disagree: more in the article.
posted by cenoxo at 11:47 PM on January 20, 2021 [1 favorite]


Trump extended Secret Service protection to his adult children, three top officials as he left office,

That's great. Send them monthly bills, because if there's no rule saying Donald Trump can't extend the protection, there's also no rule saying the US Taxpayer needs to pay for it.
posted by mikelieman at 3:10 AM on January 21, 2021 [4 favorites]


Honesty, I see no reason why any ex-president should be getting security briefings. Cut'em all off now, problem solved.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:31 AM on January 21, 2021 [8 favorites]


On the one hand, Trump absolutely should not be given security briefings- he’s practically a Russian asset as it is.

On the other hand, his intelligence briefings were already mostly pictures and bullet points which he had to be actively pressed to pay attention to, so I think there’s probably a workaround (I hear a sharpie works wonders).
posted by Mchelly at 5:56 AM on January 21, 2021 [1 favorite]


Does anyone believe Trump's Intel briefings contained anything of substance? After he blabbed to Kislyack that one time ...
posted by From Bklyn at 8:30 AM on January 21, 2021 [1 favorite]


I hope that any secret pardons would be met with them being denied based on him not being president when they are made public.
posted by Marticus at 3:28 PM on January 21, 2021 [1 favorite]


I hope that any secret pardons would be met with them being denied based on him not being president when they are made public.

I've seen an argument that pardons are intrinsically public matters, but I don't think much of it. It's not in the Constitution, and it's hard to see why that would be the case. The only requirements that have been previously identified are the pardon's issuance, and its acceptance.

I suppose the questions that will be asked when a defendant pulls a purported secret pardon out of their pocket are:
1) Is a secret pardon ever valid?
2) Did Trump issue this pardon?
3) Did he issue it while he was President?
4) Has the defendant received and accepted the pardon?
4a) Was the pardon withdrawn before the subject could have received and accepted it?

Except for the first, these questions are evidentiary issues. I don't know where the burden of proving them lies, or what evidentiary standard would be used, but given that it's a criminal trial the defendant will probably just have to plead that they received a pardon and present something that looks valid prima facie. It would then be up to the prosecution to prove otherwise. Which, yes, does raise the possibility that Trump or his minions secreted a stash of White House stationery and pens which they plan on using for all Federal prosecutions of his cronies forever.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:58 PM on January 21, 2021 [1 favorite]


The "Undercover at the DC Riots" video posted by MonkeyToes way at the top of this thread, has been removed from YouTube on copyright grounds by Herring Networks, which owns OAN. The wayback version shows when it was posted but not the video itself. (I did save out a copy; I'm downloading things as they catch my attention because I expect a lot of data removal.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:27 PM on January 21, 2021 [11 favorites]


Except for the first, these questions are evidentiary issues. I don't know where the burden of proving them lies, or what evidentiary standard would be used, but given that it's a criminal trial the defendant will probably just have to plead that they received a pardon and present something that looks valid prima facie.

It would be a perfectly reasonable argument that if the pardon were not accepted prior to Trump leaving office it would be invalid. Roberts likes norms, so he might even be inclined to accept that argument since it would prevent a serious uproar without doing violence to the pardon power and avoid the more serious issue of having to rule on secret pardons.
posted by wierdo at 8:13 PM on January 21, 2021 [3 favorites]


It probably wouldn't hurt if the DOJ declared that it intended to challenge any irregular pardon that isn't registered with them by, say, the next week. That would give some incentive for the holders of secret pardons to identify themselves, and make it harder for any shenanigans to be overlooked.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:56 PM on January 21, 2021 [4 favorites]


Standard court evidentiary scrutiny should be enough to throw out any secret pardons. "Prove that (1) this is from the former president; (2) it was signed while he was in office; (3) it was not later rescinded. No, a photocopy is not acceptable. Bring the original--and the ex-pres to swear under oath that it's his. No, a notarized affidavit is not enough; the president's signature has been widely distributed and is too easy to forge."

Attempting to prove that it was made/signed while he was in office should be interesting. That could involve forensic analysis of the paper and ink, if nobody thought to make a video or other documentation at the time.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:22 PM on January 21, 2021 [1 favorite]


Oh that "undercover at the riots" thing was highly effective. Two bright young things set off on a lark to DC January 6th 2021. They don MAGA gear and impersonate OAN "journalists" so that they can get man-on-the-street interviews with a remarkably diverse sampling of the Trumpist horde. At first it's all exciting, hilarious, pranky fun, but then people start flowing back from ransacking the capitol gushing blood and howling Q mania and snarling about their murderous exploits. The terrified boys flee and end up demoralized and weeping in a Wendy's.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:31 PM on January 21, 2021 [3 favorites]


The following Reddit post has two mirror links to the full “Undercover at the DC Riots” video. Mirror #1 worked for me this morning, but Mirror #2 was down:
We Went Undercover at the DC Riots as OAN Reporters

The following alternative links are available:

Mirror #1 (provided by /u/tuckbot)
[https://tuckbot.tv/#/watch/kxx6vm]

Mirror #2 (provided by /u/AdvinK)
[https://mirror.fro.wtf/mirror.php?file=kxx6vm.mkv]
The background music is distracting, but their running comments and interviews come through OK.

What started as a lark for the two ‘reporters’ could have ended very, very badly for them. While MAGA true believers readily embrace Trump’s election hoax claims, they wouldn’t have been too happy to discover two (fake news) OAN reporters in their midst.
posted by cenoxo at 5:37 AM on January 22, 2021 [3 favorites]


Iran's supreme leader makes online threats to attack golfing Trump, BBC News > World, 1/22/2021:
Iran's Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei has posted online an apparent call for an attack on Donald Trump in revenge for last year's killing of its top military commander, Gen Qasem Soleimani.

A photomontage [article image], posted on Twitter and an official website, appears to show the ex-US president playing golf in the shadow of a warplane or large drone. The website image is captioned "vengeance is definite”.

Twitter has suspended an account linked to Ayatollah Khamenei. The account - @khamenei_site - violated Twitter's rules, the social media giant said. It provided a link to a list of prohibited acts, including threatening violence. However, the post also appeared, retweeted, on Ayatollah Khamenei's main, much larger Farsi Twitter account with 350,000 followers. It has since been removed from that account....
Barn < horse.
posted by cenoxo at 12:48 PM on January 22, 2021


Does the FOIA have the ability to uncover secret pardons, or strengthen the legal argument against them if they're not revealed in response to a request?
posted by Riki tiki at 1:36 PM on January 22, 2021 [1 favorite]


Does the FOIA have the ability to uncover secret pardons

FOIA only works on records stored by federal agencies. If it hasn't been registered, a FOIA request won't turn it up. I don't think the failure to reveal it would make a stronger case; the current question is whether it needs to be publicized at all, and current experts are saying "uhhh... probably? But maybe not?"

If there are secret pardons, and the courts decide they're valid, I'd expect they have to be revealed when prosecution begins; anything else might open up a charge of obstructing justice/waste of judicial resources. Alternately, I could see a judge ruling, "since you didn't announce the pardon immediately, you must've known it didn't apply in this case." (Is that a stretch? Of course. But the whole topic is unprecedented; it'd all come down to judges ruling on the details in front of them.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:34 PM on January 22, 2021


As quoted above, the DOJ's FAQ indicates that "secret pardons" aren't a thing:
Presidential grants are a matter of public record, so immediately after Presidential action, the name of each person granted a pardon or commutation, along with the district they were convicted, year of sentencing, offense, and the date the President granted their request is publicly listed on the Office of the Pardon Attorney website. This information may also be posted on The White House website and included in press releases issued by the Department or The White House.

Moreover, ... the Office of the Pardon Attorney is obliged to release existing lists of the names of persons who have been denied executive clemency by the President to anyone who requests such records pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act. Given the frequency of such requests, the Office of the Pardon Attorney has started to proactively disclose the names of persons who have been denied executive clemency by the President on our website, in accordance with our Freedom of Information Act obligations.
posted by Lexica at 2:49 PM on January 22, 2021 [5 favorites]


Biden should pardon someone right away to "clear the pipes" in case there are any pardons that are sitting on someone's to-do list to post to the website. Maybe he can posthumously pardon Fred Rogers for stealing all of our hearts.
posted by Riki tiki at 3:06 PM on January 22, 2021 [3 favorites]


Lexica, that's DOJ policy; that does not mean that it's a requirement. I still think the courts are likely to knock out any secret pardons revealed after the granting president is out of office, but the constitution says nothing about any recordkeeping requirements, and the only current court-established requirements are that the president give the pardon and that the recipient receive it.
posted by tavella at 3:41 PM on January 22, 2021


There is a Presidential Records Act (via the National Archives.)

If it's an official document there's an official record of it. There were stories of staffers picking up pieces of paper Trump had ripped up and tossed into a trash can, so they could be pieced together and stored in the compliance with the law.

You can try to argue your pardon was official and Trump just willfully violated the Act. Maybe Trump will testify on your behalf that yes, this is the case, he broke the law for you and accepts responsibility, and you should not suffer for his disregard of the law.

Good luck.
posted by mark k at 4:00 PM on January 22, 2021


Snopes > Could Trump Have Issued Secret Presidential Pardons? Experts say the public nature of presidential pardons is what makes them work., Nur Ibrahim, January 20, 2021:
• Claim — Former U.S. President Donald Trump could have issued secret pardons that he could reveal later to protect his family members or himself, if ever charged with a crime.
• Rating — Unproven

Former U.S. President Donald Trump issued a slew of pardons to his allies and associates before leaving office on Jan. 20, 2021. None of those pardons included himself or his family members. However, some speculated that the beleaguered former commander-in-chief could take steps to protect himself, or those around him, by issuing secret pardons, where he would not reveal who he had pardoned until later on.

It is possible for a president to issue secret pardons, but it has never been documented before, and legal experts frequently differ on how to interpret the validity of a secret pardon.

The clause in the Constitution granting presidential clemency power does not explicitly restrict the president from issuing secret pardons. It simply says, “he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.”

U.S. Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthi reintroduced the Presidential Pardon Transparency Act to Congress (January 11, 2021) ahead of Trump’s departure, which would require that all presidential pardons be disclosed to the public within three days of being issued....
More in the article.
posted by cenoxo at 7:29 PM on January 22, 2021 [2 favorites]


What about double secret pardons?! Are all of the children’s civics books and materials getting updated to cover all this stuff?
posted by amanda at 10:09 AM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]


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