RIP Phil Spector
January 17, 2021 8:58 AM   Subscribe

Creator of the Wall of Sound, murderer, died in prison Harvey Phillip Spector (December 26, 1939 – January 16, 2021) was an American record producer, musician, and songwriter who developed the Wall of Sound, a music production formula he described as a Wagnerian approach to rock and roll. Spector is regarded to be among the most influential figures in pop music history and as the first auteur of the music industry for the unprecedented control he had over every phase of the recording process. After spending three decades in semi-retirement, in 2009, he was convicted for the 2003 murder of the actress Lana Clarkson. At the time of his death, he was serving a prison sentence of 19 years to life.
posted by wellvis (104 comments total) 7 users marked this as a favorite
 
RIP Lana Clarkson, surely.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 9:09 AM on January 17, 2021 [116 favorites]


In the minority, but I like the strings on The Long and Winding Road.
posted by freecellwizard at 9:14 AM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Yeah, I'm not sure about RIP for this one. He was a musical genius, and he was a loathsome human being who was a serial domestic abuser and eventually a murderer. I've seen reports that he died of COVID that he was exposed to in prison, and nobody deserves that. So I have complicated feelings. I can't say I'm exactly sorry that he's dead, but I'm sorry about the way that he died, and I appreciate his musical legacy.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:18 AM on January 17, 2021 [48 favorites]


Godspeed, Phil Spector. I hope he finds peace at last. A life of beauty and creation slipping into the grotesque and troubled.

To me, Phil is the other half of Leonard Cohen's Death of a Ladies' Man, a perverse, fascinating leviathan which every Leonard fan must do battle with. It's a rich lode to mine, there's just so much there. Leonard is at his most exposed, the wall of sound giving him the protection to do so. I've long held Ladies' Man and Recent Songs to be Leonard's absolute best -- twins united in theme and depth, but polar opposites in character. Sometimes creativity thrives when given boundaries and conflict, and Phil Spector certainly provided that. Of so much strife, a magnificent creature was born.

I do not excuse Phil of his terrible acts. He left a trail of victims, Lana Clarkson just being the most obvious. I say only that there was some real, genuine beauty made possible by Phil as well.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:19 AM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


Also, coke buyer (and road trip financer) in "Easy Rider."
posted by Rash at 9:19 AM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


Here are some unpaywalled obits:

The Grauniad

CNN
BBC

TMZ
posted by chavenet at 9:21 AM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


"Murderer, domestic abuser, and violent misogynist," please.
posted by minervous at 9:21 AM on January 17, 2021 [62 favorites]


Whenever I hear about Spector, I recall the anecdote about him holding Leonard Cohen at gunpoint while they were making an album together.

"One night Spector grabbed Cohen, a bottle of Manischewitz in one hand and a revolver in the other. Shoving the gun against his neck, he said, “Leonard, I love you.” Cohen slowly pushed the barrel away, replying, “I hope you do, Phil.” The resulting album, 1978’s Death of A Ladies’ Man, was a commercial disaster"
posted by mrjohnmuller at 9:25 AM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


Sonny Bono was his gofer
posted by Mr. Yuck at 9:28 AM on January 17, 2021


I just read his Wiki, and he's even worse than I thought.
posted by Beholder at 9:28 AM on January 17, 2021 [12 favorites]


Whenever I hear about Spector, I recall the anecdote about him holding Leonard Cohen at gunpoint while they were making an album together.

Didn't he also point a gun at the Ramones?
posted by thelonius at 9:30 AM on January 17, 2021 [8 favorites]


Wow, that Wikipedia page is a masterclass on how to bury a lifetime of abuse, violence and murder in a mass of ephemera.
posted by q*ben at 9:31 AM on January 17, 2021 [15 favorites]


Didn't he also point a gun at the Ramones?

It seems to be rather a signature move. That article I linked is titled "5 Artists Reportedly Held at Gunpoint by Phil Spector", and yep, The Ramones made the list.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 9:36 AM on January 17, 2021 [13 favorites]


aw shucks
posted by supermedusa at 10:02 AM on January 17, 2021


Read that NYT obit earlier and was shocked by its framing and structure. I look forward to reading Dean Baquet's apology in a couple of days.
posted by thejoshu at 10:07 AM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


Of so much strife, a magnificent creature was born.

I wonder whether Leonard Cohen feels it was worth having a gun pointed at him.

Can someone explain to me how we know that Phil's musical genius came because of his abusiveness and not despite it?
posted by Anonymous at 10:08 AM on January 17, 2021


A few years ago, Switched On Pop did a podcast about good music happening to bad people.
posted by pxe2000 at 10:09 AM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


He was a horrible person who made some great music. By and large he was punished commensurately with his misdeeds. I think I can manage a .
posted by anazgnos at 10:09 AM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


Imagine how much better pop music would be if such an influential producer wasn't a violent misogynist.

By and large he was punished commensurately with his misdeeds.

He lived for many years on money all but stolen from his ex wife Ronnie Spector in their divorce proceedings, and he sexually abused their children which he was never held to account for. That's just in the first few paragraphs of the Wikipedia article on his personal life.
posted by muddgirl at 10:12 AM on January 17, 2021 [41 favorites]


It looks like everyone is going to remember this guy in their own way. For me, he will always be Richard Cheese's producer.
posted by phooky at 10:12 AM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


I feel like a lot of the wall of sound efforts led to such an obsession with sustaining that level that there's no opening for the singer, no blank space between the notes. The techniques may have been brilliant in terms of fullness, but then he overused the hell out if it. I'm not a music person though. I'd be interested to see someone who understands sound engineering and composition critique it.

Also he was an asshole, good riddance.
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:14 AM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Not a fan.
posted by sudogeek at 10:18 AM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


More on Lana Clarkson who, by all accounts, was a good person who developed a cult following thanks to her tireless work in the weirder, outer orbits of Hollywood (she was one of Roger Corman's favorites, apparently).
posted by HunterFelt at 10:21 AM on January 17, 2021 [14 favorites]


Of so much strife, a magnificent creature was born.

I wonder whether Leonard Cohen feels it was worth having a gun pointed at him.


Definitely not. He pretty much disowned the work after, and I suspect because of the strain of working with Spector, and of that time of his life in general. He only performed one of the songs later, in a massively reworked form, and left the album out completely when he put together his collected works in the early nineties.

Still, the album is out there in the world, it's perhaps the richest of all of Leonard's, and it's a mistake to ignore it on account of its nasty birth.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:25 AM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


As much as I don't believe in heaven, hell or an afterlife I'm enjoying my internal role play dialog of imagining a lot of the music greats we've lost in the past decade - many who also are problematic, like Bowie - and they're all jamming out and in walks Spector waving a gun and a tragically comedic sized bag of cocaine and they all go "Oh fucking hell, not this asshole again!"

I'm also enjoying picturing John Balance (from the experimental band Coil) being there and totally fucking with Spector's head and relentlessly irritating him and even driving him crazy with some arcane oblique strategies and otherwise making him very ontologically uncomfortable and unsure of himself.
posted by loquacious at 10:28 AM on January 17, 2021 [8 favorites]


Spector is proof that horrible people can make great art. But the art does not wipe away the stains.

No RIP or dot from me. Dying in prison is what he deserved.
posted by Frayed Knot at 10:28 AM on January 17, 2021 [9 favorites]


He died in a hospital while serving out a prison sentence. I think it's worth noting the difference.
posted by hippybear at 10:32 AM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


Horrible person.

Some great music, but a horrible, horrible person.
posted by MrJM at 10:35 AM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


Can someone explain to me how we know that Phil's musical genius came because of his abusiveness and not despite it?

No?

I mean, I don't see anyone claiming that his genius was a result of his abusiveness in this thread, and if it's put that way in the NYT article I can't see it because paywall.

Yeah, there's a definite cultural trope where "tortured artistic genius" and "asshole" go hand in hand, but I feel like over the last decade or so there's been an increasing understanding and acceptance of the point that you can be an artistic genius without being an asshole, much less an abuser, and that if the two are at all connected it's because there's some sort of co-morbidity happening - which doesn't at all excuse abuse and murder.

The techniques may have been brilliant in terms of fullness, but then he overused the hell out if it. I'm not a music person though. I'd be interested to see someone who understands sound engineering and composition critique it.

*Shrug.* It's a style, you can find it to your taste or not - your "uninformed" opinion is no less valid than my (supposedly) informed one.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:39 AM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


Nevercalm, what did you think of Let it Be - Naked?
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:44 AM on January 17, 2021




I somehow think that the artists he worked with would have still made good and important music without him. Some alternate signature sound that didn’t involve violence and abuse could have arisen that was just as good, were he not there to get in the way. I wish him good riddance.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:59 AM on January 17, 2021 [15 favorites]


As influential as they may be, every time I go back and listen to the seminal Phil Spector songs and albums, it always strikes me that they, uh, sound like shit. The Righteous Brothers? The Ronettes? Why do they all sound like they're singing at the bottom of a cavernous well and captured on a single microphone from considerable distance away? Everybody who did the "wall of sound" thing after him did it much better. For example, Springsteen's "Born To Run."

Anyway, he was a terrible person and I'm not sad that he's gone.
posted by wabbittwax at 11:01 AM on January 17, 2021 [24 favorites]


He was a musical genius, but I think his life story shows why "genius" isn't a reason to excuse abusive or criminal behaviour. He should have been arrested years before he had the chance to murder anyone.
posted by betweenthebars at 11:14 AM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


The tortured genius trope really needs to die. It prevents people from getting the help they need and it enables so much abuse and trauma. No art is worth a human life.
posted by Aleyn at 11:36 AM on January 17, 2021 [32 favorites]


Sound on Sound on Phil's production techniques for the studio nerds.

"Zip-A-Dee Doo-Dah" by Bob B. Soxx & the Blue Jeans. You can hear Billy Strange's un-mic'ed guitar about 1:30.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 11:41 AM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


I mean, I don't see anyone claiming that his genius was a result of his abusiveness in this thread, and if it's put that way in the NYT article I can't see it because paywall.

My response was to this comment:

Sometimes creativity thrives when given boundaries and conflict, and Phil Spector certainly provided that. Of so much strife, a magnificent creature was born.
posted by Anonymous at 11:42 AM on January 17, 2021


Creepiest of all, he installed a gold coffin with a glass top in the basement, promising that he would kill her and display her corpse if she ever left him. “I can keep my eye on you after you’re dead,” Spector said. With firearms and bodyguards all over the house, Bennett was convinced he meant business.

In hell, he will be producing a band consisting solely of other armed Phil Spectors and be married to a duplicate of himself.
posted by benzenedream at 11:45 AM on January 17, 2021 [15 favorites]


Re Phil Spector One of the reasons we allowed him to become so monstrous is the idea of the singular auteur. If we thought of him as one part of the work, along with Levine, and the artists he was working with, it would have kept his monstrous ego in check
posted by PinkMoose at 11:51 AM on January 17, 2021 [16 favorites]


No art is worth a human life.

If someone wants to sacrifice their own life for their art, or for art that they love -- that's one thing. Sacrificing someone else's life for one's own art is quite another.

I personally love the Wall of Sound. Spector was immensely talented and also a total monster. I see no reason to presume any link between those traits. There are plenty of talents who are not monsters in the world, and certainly no shortage of untalented monsters.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:00 PM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


Let's all remember that if there is an asshole in your midst do not allow that situation to continue even if it's lucrative.
posted by bleep at 12:01 PM on January 17, 2021 [13 favorites]


As influential as they may be, every time I go back and listen to the seminal Phil Spector songs and albums, it always strikes me that they, uh, sound like shit. The Righteous Brothers? The Ronettes?

It’s really of a certain time, I think. And he was famously hit or miss later, and then later still he didn’t make much music at all, presumably because he basically couldn’t work with people and people couldn’t work with him. The core ideas of his sound were definitely influential, though.
posted by atoxyl at 12:02 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


May God have mercy on his soul. That’s the kindest thing I can think to say.
posted by holborne at 12:13 PM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


. for Lana Clarkson

No one, no one should die of COVID in prison.
posted by daybeforetheday at 12:13 PM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


In hell, all the vocals are distorted and the guitars are clean. So I guess it's basically The Strokes.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:15 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


This was a well-framed obit post, given the combination musical genius/murderous shitbag in question. A person could argue with which aspects of each side were highlighted, but there's no denying both were laid out clearly, side by side.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:23 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


Read that NYT obit earlier and was shocked by its framing and structure. I look forward to reading Dean Baquet's apology in a couple of days.

Rolling Stone's take was, “the architect of some of pop music's most enduring songs whose legacy was marred by a murder conviction.” Yeah, it's really something, how the guy was just sitting there minding his own business, and a murder conviction came along and marred his legacy. The BBC, meanwhile, referred to him in its headline as "flawed." Flawed. Yes, I guess you could say that terrorizing people, molesting your own kids, and murdering someone are flaws.
posted by holborne at 12:26 PM on January 17, 2021 [29 favorites]


Google should default a search for "Lana Clarkson" as "Lana Clarkson -phil"...
posted by Wetterschneider at 12:39 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


Ronnie Spector has released a statement, and I'm not sure what to make of it:
It’s a sad day for music and a sad day for me.

When I was working with Phil Spector, watching him create in the recording studio, I knew I was working with the very best. He was in complete control, directing everyone. So much to love about those days.

Meeting him and falling in love was like a fairytale.

The magical music we were able to make together, was inspired by our love. I loved him madly, and gave my heart and soul to him.

As I said many times while he was alive, he was a brilliant producer, but a lousy husband.

Unfortunately Phil was not able to live and function outside of the recording studio.

Darkness set in, many lives were damaged.

I still smile whenever I hear the music we made together, and always will. The music will be forever.
Far be it from me to tell anyone how to remember their abusive spouse, but "lousy husband" seems like the understatement of the century.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:41 PM on January 17, 2021 [13 favorites]


I mean, I don't see anyone claiming that his genius was a result of his abusiveness in this thread, and if it's put that way in the NYT article I can't see it because paywall.

A tip I reluctantly share (because if it's widely known it will probably get fixed) is that on Firefox the Tranquility Reader add-on will often let you read these articles when you get the 'please subscribe' pop-ups. This does not work at all sites.

I have a NYT account, but not a NYT subscription.
posted by rochrobbb at 12:56 PM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


https://news.avclub.com/1846077494

I don’t think enough attention gets paid to how people who worked with Spector and suffered his abuse get sort of double-victimized by his disgrace.

Darlene Love had some of her best work released by him under another name for no good reason but him being a control freak. Ronnie Spector was terrorized and held a virtual prisoner by him for years. On top of all that, the greatest achievements in their careers now get ignored because a bunch of people are like, “Eeew, Spector’s a creep and a murderer.” Well, yeah he was. But they deserve better.

posted by anazgnos at 1:29 PM on January 17, 2021 [20 favorites]


fuck that guy
posted by j_curiouser at 1:32 PM on January 17, 2021 [17 favorites]


I really think the RIP in the title should be removed. As stated above, fuck this guy. I don’t wish him any peace.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:37 PM on January 17, 2021 [12 favorites]


I read it as "rest in pain" myself.
posted by pxe2000 at 1:39 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


Well, we wouldn't want him to come back as some kind of ghost or wraith or revenant or spirit or apparition or phantom or something.
posted by rodlymight at 1:46 PM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


I actually think he may be the most over-rated person in the history of music. I have a vague recollection of Paul McCartney saying he wanted to release versions of how earlier hits sounded ‘before Phil Spector vomited over them’. Those may not be the words, but they capture my feelings pretty well.
posted by Phanx at 1:59 PM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


Paul McCartney saying he wanted to release versions of how earlier hits sounded ‘before Phil Spector vomited over them’.

See: The Beatles Let It Be - Naked
posted by djseafood at 2:29 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


My thoughts on Let It Be - Naked:
  • Awful, awful title. It should have been called Get Back. I’m not sure what Paul was thinking there.
  • Most of the tracks are better than the original. Across the Universe and The Long and Winding Road are far better without the schmaltzy Wall of Sound treatment.
  • I prefer the track order on the original, mostly because I love Two of Us as an album opener, and just in general.
  • The album version of Let It Be remains the definitive version of the track. Harrison’s solo has so much emotion in the album version. The single and Naked version solos just aren’t as good.
posted by vitout at 2:46 PM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


i was surprised to see that kurt andersen had written a piece about being in spector's orbit during the '90s. it was written during the murder trial, so parts are a bit dated. but it's still an interesting peek into a strange world.
posted by bruceo at 3:34 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


No dots here; good riddance to bad rubbish
posted by acb at 3:50 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


PS: another vote for rewording the post title to remove the RIP. Spector should be treated as, say, Charles Manson would have been, rather than as a flawed hero.
posted by acb at 3:54 PM on January 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


I think there's an argument to be made for remembering all of his albums as having been produced by whoever the lead engineer was on them. So, for All Things Must Pass, we'd change the credit to Phil McDonald, as a reward for having had to work for this motherfucker. Just do that with every one of his credits and call it justice. Then the musicians' hard work can be remembered and we can forget the abusive murderer.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:03 PM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


It’s interesting to re-listen to his productions after finding out what a monstrous person he was. I think of “A Christmas Gift From Phil Spector” in particular - widely considered the “best Christmas album of all time”. Christmas is a particularly bleak time for vulnerable people caught in abusive relationships and obliged to project a manic happiness and to try to convey - out of abject fear - that everything is perfect. It sounds like an embodiment of that.
posted by rongorongo at 4:05 PM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]




No art is worth a human life.

Art is arguably the primary means by which we communicate with human lives lived in the past. There will be no final accounting of the value of Phil Spector’s life and work - not in this world - but he won his artistic immortality a long time ago. I think he will be remembered as an evil man. I hope he will be remembered in context of other lives lived, and cut short.
posted by atoxyl at 4:10 PM on January 17, 2021


a genius at getting other people to do good work

I mean, that’s pretty much the job of a producer in his vein.
posted by atoxyl at 4:13 PM on January 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


Mel will be the next loathsome artist to be talent washed.
posted by Beholder at 4:23 PM on January 17, 2021


I think River Deep, Mountain High is one of humanity’s profoundest musical achievements. Would I trade it for all the evil Phil Spector did with his life? I guess I would. If I can’t, though, it’s still worth celebrating it as a masterpiece, even if a monster helped to make it.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:25 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


It's mind-blowing to imagine a session featuring Ike Turner in which he's not the worst person in the room.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:28 PM on January 17, 2021 [16 favorites]


I mean, that’s pretty much the job of a producer in his vein.

A counterexample, who worked on a lot of great records.
posted by acb at 4:47 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


A friend of mine's father was involved in the music industry in the 50's and 60's beginning in Philadelphia.

My friends overall take was that many producers, managers, etc regardless of color abused their artists unmercifully (financially, emotionally, etc) A lot of mob money was involved getting these production companies and artists off the ground to the point many of them were indentured servants and had to go through great lengths to get them out of their contracts.

So when I see men like Ahmet Ertegun, Clive Davis, Barry Gordy, etc get all of these accolades, I cringe
posted by goalyeehah at 4:54 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Spector was absolutely a monster of a person, but let's not forget his many enablers--the people who he drew a gun on in the recording studio, and kept on working with him. When his talents worked, they really worked; when they didn't, they partially ruined what they touched. (I just recently got Let It Be - Naked, and yes, dumb title, but it's the most that I've listened to any Beatles album in a good long while.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:54 PM on January 17, 2021


Art is arguably the primary means by which we communicate with human lives lived in the past.

That's all well and good, but it doesn't change my thesis. There are plenty of ways that we can communicate the past to the future that doesn't require people to sacrifice their well-being on the altar of tortured genius. I guess that if someone wants to make that sacrifice of their own accord (and not because culture/society expects them to) then that's their prerogative. That is not what I'm seeing here. I would rather live in a world without his works if it meant that his victims survived and thrived without being forced to hitch their wagon to his star, and that he got whatever help he needed to not feel like he needed to be a murderous asshole, if possible.

What of the potential of the lives he impacted or even cut short? Surely they are just as capable as he was of speaking to our descendants? The more we say "but what about the art" as a defense for keeping people from seeking the mental health they need and for enabling assholes, the more we consign ourselves to obituaries like this.
posted by Aleyn at 5:12 PM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


That's not a wall of sound.

This is a wall of sound.
posted by flabdablet at 5:37 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


I always think of the musical geniuses who never got their big breaks because people were willing to work with shitbags like Phil instead. There may well have been a greater talent who took one look at the state of recording at the time, as goalyeehah says, and just noped out for the sake of a peaceful life. Not to mention the legacy of letting shitbag producers set the terms.
posted by Jilder at 5:40 PM on January 17, 2021 [8 favorites]


I've always sort of admired Owsley's Wall Of Sound he made for The Grateful Dead.
posted by hippybear at 5:44 PM on January 17, 2021 [6 favorites]


Yeah, everyone who has "famed producer" but not "convicted murderer" in their headline gets bad marks from me. Rolling stone is clear in the headline, but pitchfork and TMZ are a fault in the versions I see.

I don't believe in the death penalty or think anyone deserves to die in prison, but I don't think he deserves a dot. Let get men the help they need, early. Not after they leave a trail of abuse and murder and a few memorable songs.
posted by CostcoCultist at 5:47 PM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


I would rather live in a world without his works if it meant that his victims survived and thrived without being forced to hitch their wagon to his star, and that he got whatever help he needed to not feel like he needed to be a murderous asshole, if possible.

I suppose I am expressing a certain fatalism about whether history will ever be “fair” in this regard, by the nature of human life and cultural transmission.

By all means, if you have the choice in the moment to avoid working with or supporting a music producer you suspect to be capable of sadism and murder, that’s good principle to follow!
posted by atoxyl at 5:53 PM on January 17, 2021


That's not a wall of sound.

This is a wall of sound.


Pretty sure Kevin Shields has cited Spector as an influence. And Brian Wilson, who of course outdid Spector in every way but who was influenced by him on the level of an obsession.
posted by atoxyl at 6:04 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


Can we not call the people who he threatened “enablers” - let’s not victim blame please
posted by FritoKAL at 6:07 PM on January 17, 2021 [9 favorites]


Neurotic Impresario parodied in The Cool Ones (1967)
posted by ovvl at 7:13 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


The crass story telling side of me needs to say that I once toured the hospital cell block Phil Spector was being held in. I wish I had more to offer, but that’s it.

I love the music he was responsible for and feel awful for his victims.
posted by vorpal bunny at 7:40 PM on January 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


My understanding of Spector’s wall of sound is that it was intended to sound amazing on the shitty AM car radio speakers of the day, and may not sound as good on better equipment.

Still, some fine music from a truly awful person.
posted by lhauser at 8:18 PM on January 17, 2021 [5 favorites]


Posthumously rehabilitating or papering over the sins of abusers and murderers paves a smoother path for future abusers and murderers who use their abuse to further themselves and their talents (whatever they may be) in the world.

We can do a small part in lessening the chances of this by not looking away or blinding others to the horrors of their harms.

Art is essential to humanity. No one single piece of art is.
posted by pykrete jungle at 8:32 PM on January 17, 2021 [7 favorites]


Art is essential to humanity. No one single piece of art is.

Phil Spector was a nasty piece of work. Not unlike most all the persons recently executed in the Trumpster fire's federal killing spree. Yet the advocates against those executions all made the argument that death penalty was cruel and unusual in their cases because they were mentally ill. As was Phil Spector, obviously.

Humanity is first and foremost crooked wood. If we were to mark with an asterix all the art made by people who behaved like monsters, we should have very little untagged art indeed.
posted by y2karl at 9:37 PM on January 17, 2021 [4 favorites]


Wow, thanks for this post; otherwise I would never have known that Phil Spector was a terrible person.

I learned about him in our 8th grade musical appreciation 'practical and fine arts' rotation and the teacher decided to take us through the Beatles in 36 school days, so I can understand that the only association he had time to put in our heads was "Phil Spector <> wall of sound" (or maybe talking to middle schoolers about domestic abuse wasn't a thing for old men teachers in the early 2000s).

Now I know.
posted by batter_my_heart at 10:07 PM on January 17, 2021


Who better to comment on his life and death than the former Ronnie Bennett, the singer who fronted the “girl group” the Ronettes, who signed with Spector’s Phillies Records in 1963 and recorded numerous songs produced and co-written by Spector including, no especially, “Be My Baby,” a #2 hit that year. The same Ronnie Bennett who married Spector in 1968 and took his name.

“It’s a sad day for music and a sad day for me,” she wrote. “When I was working with Phil Spector, watching him create in the recording studio, I knew I was working with the very best. He was in complete control, directing everyone. So much to love about those days.

“Meeting him and falling in love was like a fairytale.

“The magical music we were able to make together, was inspired by our love. I loved him madly, and gave my heart and soul to him.

“As I said many times while he was alive, he was a brilliant producer, but a lousy husband.

“Unfortunately Phil was not able to live and function outside of the recording studio.

“Darkness set in, many lives were damaged.”

She closed her tribute by writing, “I still smile whenever I hear the music we made together, and always will. The music will be forever.”

The couple’s tempestuous marriage ended in divorced in 1974 after Ronnie Spector accused her husband of psychological torment.


- via
posted by fairmettle at 12:09 AM on January 18, 2021


I think he will be remembered as an evil man. I hope he will be remembered in context of other lives lived, and cut short.

I think he will be forgotten.

In 25 years he will be a trivia question. In a hundred years he will be less than a footnote to a footnote in music history texts that college students are required to buy but don't read. Any memory or influence of him will be drowned out by decades upon decades of creative people making music in all kinds of new styles. And he, and everything he did in music, will be forgotten.

And that's the best fate I can think of for him.
posted by happyroach at 2:45 AM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


Yeah I think I can't really say RIP about a violent misogynist who literally kept his wife a prisoner and threatened to murder her if she left. And then later actually did murder another woman he was involved with after he sexually abused their children.

Any artistic contributions he made don't make up for that.

*
posted by sotonohito at 7:22 AM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


Abolish prisons, no one should die like he did, but also i'd rather have Lana clarkson alive and 100% of his music gone.
posted by FirstMateKate at 7:42 AM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


This discussion is a little confusing because it almost feels like an argument about whether Spector should be remembered as a loathsome individual or a significant artist when the truth is that he was both those things and probably many other things as well.
posted by lumpy at 7:53 AM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


I think the difficulty is more one of pushback against a perceived ignoring or minimizing of his wrongs in service of admiring his musical contributions.

Not so much by people here, but in the press which tends to have headlines and stories all but exclusively about his music and if they mention his literal crimes at all they do so briefly at the bottom of an otherwise hierographic article as if the violent, murderous, misogyny and rape was just a mostly irrelevant side issue and the most important part was the wall of sound.
posted by sotonohito at 8:12 AM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


My perspective is that this idea that he was a "musical genius" is part of the same aggrandizing narrative that allowed him to get away with rampant violence for years and years. There are tons of great producers who were not household names because they weren't sociopaths who aggressively promoted the narrative that they were unique musical talents.
posted by muddgirl at 9:10 AM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


Fuck Phil Spector. Should have died sooner. An artist? Meh. Even serial killer John Wayne Gacy was an artist. For most people, when we take account of their lives, we weigh the good with the bad. But not everyone deserves that. Killer, child abuser, sexual abuser, misogynist, the list goes on. Whoever first said not to speak ill of the dead never met someone like Phil Spector.
posted by AugustWest at 9:20 AM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


British music critic Laura Snapes' take on possibly the key part of Spector's legacy: Phil Spector defined the toxic music svengali – a figure that persists today.
posted by acb at 9:21 AM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


For most people, when we take account of their lives, we weigh the good with the bad. But not everyone deserves that.

It's not about weighing good vs bad or adjudging whether someone "deserves" that. It's about recognizing that people contain multitudes; it should be possible to hold two ideas about Phil Spector at once or to use two different lenses when assessing him instead of a monocle. Knowingly ignoring either his crimes or his artistic contributions, like them or not, are equally dishonest and lead to an incomplete portrait of the man.

We had this same debate when Michael Jackson died and it will come up again when Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, OJ Simpson, and others depart this world. I can't un-enjoy the pleasure I took in their work, in this case Unchained Melody or Let It Be, even if I can, as with Woody Allen, decide not to reward them with my attention or my money.

Death is a time to reflect on all facets of the life lived by the decedent.
posted by carmicha at 9:45 AM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


It's not about weighing good vs bad or adjudging whether someone "deserves" that. It's about recognizing that people contain multitudes; it should be possible to hold two ideas about Phil Spector at once or to use two different lenses when assessing him instead of a monocle. Knowingly ignoring either his crimes or his artistic contributions, like them or not, are equally dishonest and lead to an incomplete portrait of the man.

...

Death is a time to reflect on all facets of the life lived by the decedent.


To each their own.
posted by AugustWest at 9:51 AM on January 18, 2021


If you like Spector's musical legacy but abhor his crimes, a consolation could be the likelihood that, by the Al Capone principle, it's likely that individuals who are predatory/abusive in one area are so in others, suggesting that a significant proportion of “his” creative accomplishments are likely to have been appropriated from others, without credit being given of course.

As such, it may help to talk of things such as Be My Baby in other terms as being primarily attributed to him.
posted by acb at 10:12 AM on January 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


As influential as they may be, every time I go back and listen to the seminal Phil Spector songs and albums, it always strikes me that they, uh, sound like shit.

Odds are you're listening on an inappropriate sound system, something with two or more speakers and a wide frequency response. The Wall of Sound was designed to punch its way out of the single speaker in a portable AM radio, and it does that magnificently. But this is why Spector did very little of note after FM came into its own.
posted by Devoidoid at 10:21 AM on January 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


it should be possible to hold two ideas about Phil Spector at once

Yeah basically I think the revisionist view that his music is not that big a deal is, historically, incorrect.

The view that he’s not primarily to be credited with it - well certainly there are people who deserve more renown than they get, like Jeff Barry and Ellie Greenwich, and that’s arguably part and parcel of taking a broader view of what Phil Spector’s name means. But is it true that he was just putting his name on stuff? I don’t really know, it would be worth looking up what his collaborators have had to say about it.
posted by atoxyl at 10:49 AM on January 18, 2021 [1 favorite]


Obviously his music was a big deal. But the question we can never answer is, would those same artists have had hit records with another producer who didn't torture them, abuse them, or threaten them? "Without me you would be nothing" is a classic narrative of abuse that enablers love to buy in to.
posted by muddgirl at 11:20 AM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


Man, BBC's original headline was horrible: "Talented but flawed producer Phil Spector dies aged 81." Are you kidding me, BBC? And the weirdly defensive "apology" wasn't much better.

I don't know why so many media outlets are having such a hard time talking about Spector with the harshness and directness that's needed. The guy was a monster. Why is it so difficult to say that?
posted by ZaphodB at 11:51 AM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


Obviously his music was a big deal. But the question we can never answer is, would those same artists have had hit records with another producer who didn't torture them, abuse them, or threaten them?

Some of them probably would have. There’s a whole staff of talented people involved, for sure. Would they have been in the same style that people like Brian Wilson creates whole genres of pop trying to recreate, though?

I think this discussion is somewhat at cross purposes. People keep returning to the trying to debunk the idea that he was a successful producer because he was abusive, but I certainly don’t endorse that and I’m not sure that anybody else here does, either. I just think saying oh he probably wasn’t that important anyway, motivated by the knowledge that he was abusive, is wishful thinking, unless you’re going to find his songwriters saying “yeah, that bastard did nothing but put his name on our songs.” Which, I dunno, maybe you can.
posted by atoxyl at 12:10 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


Also, Morrissey was never in The Smiths; the true identity of the singer/songwriter who worked with Johnny Marr remains a mystery.
posted by acb at 1:41 PM on January 18, 2021 [1 favorite]


« Older Think about the future!   |   Animals Interrupting Wildlife Photographers Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments