It’s Going to Be Weird, but We Need to Learn to Live With Germs Again
April 23, 2021 1:52 PM Subscribe
From the NYTimes: Scientists "say that excessive hygiene practices, inappropriate antibiotic use and lifestyle changes such as distancing may weaken those communities going forward in ways that promote sickness and imperil our immune systems. By sterilizing our bodies and spaces, they argue, we may be doing more harm than good."
I have maintained for years that excessive hygiene makes one weak, as a justification of my dirty hippie lifestyle. Yes, I eat stuff that's been dropped on the floor, and the floor ain't all that clean. I've convinced myself that exposure to lotsa bacteria builds my immunity. I also ate expired food, dented can food, and overripe produce from my hippie co-op free food box for over 36 years without getting food poisoning, ever. I have rarely been sick since I escaped my psycho-hygienic mother's superclean house. Grunge, it does a body good.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 2:07 PM on April 23, 2021 [30 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 2:07 PM on April 23, 2021 [30 favorites]
I've always been one of those slightly cavalier "oh well I'm strengthening my immune system" people. And you know? I was an idiot. I haven't been sick for a year, and it's awesome.
posted by grandiloquiet at 2:07 PM on April 23, 2021 [102 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 2:07 PM on April 23, 2021 [102 favorites]
If I understand the article, the idea is that while there may be a short-term benefit to sanitation (e.g., not getting a cold last year), in the long term, it's better for us to encounter a variety of bacteria. I don't think it's arguing we shouldn't have temporarily cleaned surfaces when we thought COVID was surface-transmitted.
posted by michaelh at 2:18 PM on April 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by michaelh at 2:18 PM on April 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
It is certainly an argument for kindergarten.
posted by y2karl at 2:18 PM on April 23, 2021 [31 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 2:18 PM on April 23, 2021 [31 favorites]
Tying chunks of the piece to the covid pandemic is understandable (get them clicks and eyeballs. Oh, sure, I'm supposed to just shake hands with everyone again?! WHY YOU. Engagement! Engagement!) but a little unfortunate too: because the burgeoning field of microbiome effects and their interdependence with human health is just fascinating. The world is so much more complex than we know, and it's humbling to really think about how we're literally only just looking past the surface.
Ed Yong's I Contain Multitudes is a pretty fun recent overview of the field, and it's also fun to think about how quickly it's likely to get outdated--again, very recent that 'science' cared about microbes beyond ways to kill them most effectively. Hygiene hypothesis effects, such as the counter-intuitive but empircally strongly-supported idea that over-sanitizing hospitals actually worsens effects in them makes a visit in it. (My favorite early whoa moment in it was it pointing out that human breastmilk is loaded with complex long-chain molecules that infants cannot digest...but gut bacteria do; that a lot of biological energy has evolved to go into not just nourishing the baby, but nourishing baby's developing gut residents as well.)
posted by Drastic at 2:19 PM on April 23, 2021 [35 favorites]
Ed Yong's I Contain Multitudes is a pretty fun recent overview of the field, and it's also fun to think about how quickly it's likely to get outdated--again, very recent that 'science' cared about microbes beyond ways to kill them most effectively. Hygiene hypothesis effects, such as the counter-intuitive but empircally strongly-supported idea that over-sanitizing hospitals actually worsens effects in them makes a visit in it. (My favorite early whoa moment in it was it pointing out that human breastmilk is loaded with complex long-chain molecules that infants cannot digest...but gut bacteria do; that a lot of biological energy has evolved to go into not just nourishing the baby, but nourishing baby's developing gut residents as well.)
posted by Drastic at 2:19 PM on April 23, 2021 [35 favorites]
You know how you read a Wikipedia entry of someone in the 17th century and they had like 16 children and only 7 survived to adulthood? That's because instead of getting to adulthood with all their foibles and genetic deficiencies they. just. died. Asthmatic? You died at 7. Diabetic? You'd die at 11. It's like how there's been a massive increase in cancer over the past two centuries. Modern life may have some carcinogens around but in general we've been living to 70 instead of dying of conditions treatable by modern medicine.
Going back to some romanticized, traditional aspect of our culture because things were supposedly better for us has never been anything but nostalgic bullshit. Wash your fucking hands and cook ground meat to 75C/165F.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:21 PM on April 23, 2021 [95 favorites]
Going back to some romanticized, traditional aspect of our culture because things were supposedly better for us has never been anything but nostalgic bullshit. Wash your fucking hands and cook ground meat to 75C/165F.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:21 PM on April 23, 2021 [95 favorites]
FWIW, if your home is on a septic system, you should never, ever, ever, use antibacterial soaps, detergents, etc. Basically, antibacterial anything that gets flushed down the drain. The stuff kills the bacteria in your tank, causing it to not do what it’s supposed to do.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:26 PM on April 23, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 2:26 PM on April 23, 2021 [17 favorites]
That's because instead of getting to adulthood with all their foibles and genetic deficiencies they. just. died. Asthmatic? You died at 7. Diabetic? You'd die at 11.
Well...the mortality rate for children under 1 was extremely high. After that, it was more infections, as well as childhood illnesses we were well on our way to wiping out before the anti-vaxxers started up. We do have treatments for both of those these days.
I've actually wondered about this. I don't revel in the grimier aspects of NYC, but I don't shy away from them. I've long felt that my (prior) daily bodega visits kept my immune system alert. Now I do a lot less of that, and I wonder if I won't end up with some illness I normally fight off with ease.
The broader point, that people are going to have to realize that their idea of safety before was actually not 100% safe and they're going to need to learn to accept that level of safety again (in other words, post-vaccine) as a working basis for life, is valid. I see a fair amount of reluctance to do some things post-vaccination, even knowing that vaccination drastically reduces risk of transmission to others, too. It seems like some people's risk-assessment systems have gone long-term haywire. At the moment, vaccinated, it seems to me that my risk of serious illness or death is only marginally higher than it was in March 2019. I understand the reasons for continuing to mask up indoors and will continue to do so for as long as it's mandated, but I'm not avoiding things I really want to/need to do for fear of COVID at this point, as I was before.
posted by praemunire at 2:35 PM on April 23, 2021 [19 favorites]
Well...the mortality rate for children under 1 was extremely high. After that, it was more infections, as well as childhood illnesses we were well on our way to wiping out before the anti-vaxxers started up. We do have treatments for both of those these days.
I've actually wondered about this. I don't revel in the grimier aspects of NYC, but I don't shy away from them. I've long felt that my (prior) daily bodega visits kept my immune system alert. Now I do a lot less of that, and I wonder if I won't end up with some illness I normally fight off with ease.
The broader point, that people are going to have to realize that their idea of safety before was actually not 100% safe and they're going to need to learn to accept that level of safety again (in other words, post-vaccine) as a working basis for life, is valid. I see a fair amount of reluctance to do some things post-vaccination, even knowing that vaccination drastically reduces risk of transmission to others, too. It seems like some people's risk-assessment systems have gone long-term haywire. At the moment, vaccinated, it seems to me that my risk of serious illness or death is only marginally higher than it was in March 2019. I understand the reasons for continuing to mask up indoors and will continue to do so for as long as it's mandated, but I'm not avoiding things I really want to/need to do for fear of COVID at this point, as I was before.
posted by praemunire at 2:35 PM on April 23, 2021 [19 favorites]
“Whatever you’re doing and especially if it’s been a matter of life or death, you’re doing it wrong.”
Also, it's really unfortunate that hygiene theater directed at fomites and, to a lesser degree, droplets, took up resources that could've gone to actual mitigation directed primarily at aerosols. The public-health guidance in the U.S. was very poor on this, so public confusion was inevitable (and, in any case, it almost never hurts to wash your hands), but it astounds me how much and how long people have clung to the former even after it became clear that the aerosol hypothesis was far more persuasive.
posted by praemunire at 2:38 PM on April 23, 2021 [42 favorites]
Also, it's really unfortunate that hygiene theater directed at fomites and, to a lesser degree, droplets, took up resources that could've gone to actual mitigation directed primarily at aerosols. The public-health guidance in the U.S. was very poor on this, so public confusion was inevitable (and, in any case, it almost never hurts to wash your hands), but it astounds me how much and how long people have clung to the former even after it became clear that the aerosol hypothesis was far more persuasive.
posted by praemunire at 2:38 PM on April 23, 2021 [42 favorites]
Whenever I get into the car from going somewhere like work or shopping I use some hand sanitizer. I know it doesn't do much for covid and it wasn't something I was doing before so why do I still do it?
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:43 PM on April 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:43 PM on April 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
—Bah! To hell with this! Get my razor! Draw a bath! And get these Kleenex boxes off my feet!
—Certainly, sir. And, uh, the jars of urine?
—Oh, we’ll hang on to those.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:43 PM on April 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
—Certainly, sir. And, uh, the jars of urine?
—Oh, we’ll hang on to those.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:43 PM on April 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
god made dirt n dirt don't hurt.
posted by djseafood at 2:48 PM on April 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by djseafood at 2:48 PM on April 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
I will consider "more harm than good" once the actual, immediate source of harm is gone and it's not gone. Unfortunately the more harm than good folks have been crying wolf since day 1 so I will continue assessing risk as I always have which has not failed me so far.
posted by bleep at 2:52 PM on April 23, 2021 [29 favorites]
posted by bleep at 2:52 PM on April 23, 2021 [29 favorites]
Wait there’s a cure for anti-vaxxers? Get that paper published stat.
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:53 PM on April 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:53 PM on April 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
Oh man when I was a quarrelsome antisocial teenager I cultivated some deliberately poor hygiene and had a habit of flouncing around proclaiming that "the cleaner you are, the more susceptible you are to the soil." I don't know where I read it, but I thought it was the best thing ever to say to people who (understandably) didn't want to smell me.
I mean, I still feel that way about dirt, but now I shower occasionally.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 2:56 PM on April 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
I mean, I still feel that way about dirt, but now I shower occasionally.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 2:56 PM on April 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
once the actual, immediate source of harm is gone and it's not gone
It is unlikely ever to be gone. Likely best outcome is a modest incidence and a booster every few years to deal with a particularly effective variant. That is, like the flu.
But you weren't waiting for the flu to be gone, nor car crashes, before. (Some people have a degree of medical fragility that mandates much higher caution than the average person needs; I'm assuming you're not one of those.)
Wait there’s a cure for anti-vaxxers? Get that paper published stat.
I thought about making a joke about that, but let the chance slip!
posted by praemunire at 2:57 PM on April 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
It is unlikely ever to be gone. Likely best outcome is a modest incidence and a booster every few years to deal with a particularly effective variant. That is, like the flu.
But you weren't waiting for the flu to be gone, nor car crashes, before. (Some people have a degree of medical fragility that mandates much higher caution than the average person needs; I'm assuming you're not one of those.)
Wait there’s a cure for anti-vaxxers? Get that paper published stat.
I thought about making a joke about that, but let the chance slip!
posted by praemunire at 2:57 PM on April 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
God has a weird desire for us to get tetanus
posted by emjaybee at 2:58 PM on April 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 2:58 PM on April 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
Well, we are a pretty annoying species. God needs some payback.
posted by praemunire at 2:59 PM on April 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 2:59 PM on April 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Once someone starts talking about flu is when I check out. COVID is not like flu now, it wasn't like flu before, and we don't know what it's going to be like in the future. It's much too soon for any of this. Hospital systems are still suffering and collapsing all around the world. None of us will be free until all of us are free.
posted by bleep at 3:04 PM on April 23, 2021 [49 favorites]
posted by bleep at 3:04 PM on April 23, 2021 [49 favorites]
I've always been one of those slightly cavalier "oh well I'm strengthening my immune system" people. And you know? I was an idiot. I haven't been sick for a year, and it's awesome.
I'm normally known for a pretty robust immune system, an iron stomach, and little squeamishness about germs overall (long history of owning gross pets). In the Before Times I spent tons of time on transit or in crowds. Every three or four years I have to tangle with a bout of bronchitis, but that's mostly been it. The occasional cold here or there after hanging out with small kids.
I have been sick CONSTANTLY this past year and it's an enormous wtf. Like just literally HOW AND FROM WHOM.
I can only think that the stress is making me susceptible to every last thing (I mean, who knows? I could even have had COVID, tests are very hard to get around here) or that the stress itself is creating the symptoms?
But either way it feels super unfair! I want to go back to my protective grunge!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:05 PM on April 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
I'm normally known for a pretty robust immune system, an iron stomach, and little squeamishness about germs overall (long history of owning gross pets). In the Before Times I spent tons of time on transit or in crowds. Every three or four years I have to tangle with a bout of bronchitis, but that's mostly been it. The occasional cold here or there after hanging out with small kids.
I have been sick CONSTANTLY this past year and it's an enormous wtf. Like just literally HOW AND FROM WHOM.
I can only think that the stress is making me susceptible to every last thing (I mean, who knows? I could even have had COVID, tests are very hard to get around here) or that the stress itself is creating the symptoms?
But either way it feels super unfair! I want to go back to my protective grunge!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:05 PM on April 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
It's an eponymystery...
posted by y2karl at 3:09 PM on April 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 3:09 PM on April 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
(For what it's worth I didn't read that comment as "COVID is just the same as flu omg what's the big deal" but as saying that COVID is unlikely to follow the trajectory of, say, smallpox or some other fully eradicated disease. It is true that we don't know for sure that we cannot obliterate its existence eventually, of course, but it seems safe to say we won't be obliterating it anywhere in the near future.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:09 PM on April 23, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:09 PM on April 23, 2021 [17 favorites]
That is indeed what I meant. But also: at this point, even though COVID without mitigation is plainly far far worse than the flu, even the more vulnerable, fully vaccinated, are now less likely to die of COVID than of flu. At some point we're going to have to accept that the post-vaccination risks create a scenario little different than the basis for operating normally we had before. Or else resign ourselves to permanent lockdown.
Hospital systems are still suffering and collapsing all around the world. None of us will be free until all of us are free.
As a response to what I said, this is haywire system thinking. Why would you think that accurately recognizing the quantum of risk posed to vaccinated people would mean not being keenly invested in getting the whole world vaccinated? Quite the contrary!
(Is it fundamentally unfair that, e.g., India is not getting vaccinated as quickly as the U.S., and has an even more precarious health care system? Of course it is. But, e.g., shutting down indoor dining in NYC, or [fill in your grimier activity of choice], isn't going to change that.)
posted by praemunire at 3:20 PM on April 23, 2021 [17 favorites]
Hospital systems are still suffering and collapsing all around the world. None of us will be free until all of us are free.
As a response to what I said, this is haywire system thinking. Why would you think that accurately recognizing the quantum of risk posed to vaccinated people would mean not being keenly invested in getting the whole world vaccinated? Quite the contrary!
(Is it fundamentally unfair that, e.g., India is not getting vaccinated as quickly as the U.S., and has an even more precarious health care system? Of course it is. But, e.g., shutting down indoor dining in NYC, or [fill in your grimier activity of choice], isn't going to change that.)
posted by praemunire at 3:20 PM on April 23, 2021 [17 favorites]
My parents still "quarantine" their mail for three days in a closet. But that's less superstitious than my aunt who is afraid of "being injected with RNA" and won't get the vaccine.
Anyway, sounds like maybe we don't have to worry about the cat buttholes as much as the other thread might indicate.
posted by Foosnark at 3:20 PM on April 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
Anyway, sounds like maybe we don't have to worry about the cat buttholes as much as the other thread might indicate.
posted by Foosnark at 3:20 PM on April 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
I also ate expired food,
Hahahaha, I did this at the start of the pandemic just for the heck of it and y'know what? Most of it was still fine. The only thing that actively tasted bad were flavored nuts.
I see a fair amount of reluctance to do some things post-vaccination, even knowing that vaccination drastically reduces risk of transmission to others, too. It seems like some people's risk-assessment systems have gone long-term haywire.
I'm really confused as to what levels of paranoia I still have to maintain here, is why. I constantly read medical news and sometimes some people are all hey, that's fine, maybe you can go without the mask outside but only as long as you don't talk to someone for a long time (NYT) (but hey, how was I going to know I was going to run into someone?). And sometimes it's like "no, that's still bad," like eating indoors in a restaurant or on a plane EVEN if you're vaccinated (WaPo). There's an Ask Metafilter thread right now about whether or not a vaccinated person can sleep in the same hotel room as an unvaccinated person and whether or not the vaccinated one is still in danger. I am now seeing stories this week about people who are 100% fully vaccinated for weeks STILL dying of Covid. So does that mean the whole "the vaccines prevent 100% of horrible Covid death" thing is no longer accurate?
WHAT THE HELL DO I BELIEVE ANY MORE?!?! I DON'T KNOW!
And then there's the variants, and all of the bad ones are IN my county RIGHT NOW. Do I still need to be just as much in fear as I ever was because of those, or not? Like so far they think it's mostly okay, but I got Pfizer and they're checking it in Moderna but assume it's the same and....
Uh, can you see why my risk assessment has gone haywire from all of this? I do not know what to believe is actually safe or "safe" or literally ANYTHING, and the stakes are life and death if I fuck up.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:24 PM on April 23, 2021 [42 favorites]
Hahahaha, I did this at the start of the pandemic just for the heck of it and y'know what? Most of it was still fine. The only thing that actively tasted bad were flavored nuts.
I see a fair amount of reluctance to do some things post-vaccination, even knowing that vaccination drastically reduces risk of transmission to others, too. It seems like some people's risk-assessment systems have gone long-term haywire.
I'm really confused as to what levels of paranoia I still have to maintain here, is why. I constantly read medical news and sometimes some people are all hey, that's fine, maybe you can go without the mask outside but only as long as you don't talk to someone for a long time (NYT) (but hey, how was I going to know I was going to run into someone?). And sometimes it's like "no, that's still bad," like eating indoors in a restaurant or on a plane EVEN if you're vaccinated (WaPo). There's an Ask Metafilter thread right now about whether or not a vaccinated person can sleep in the same hotel room as an unvaccinated person and whether or not the vaccinated one is still in danger. I am now seeing stories this week about people who are 100% fully vaccinated for weeks STILL dying of Covid. So does that mean the whole "the vaccines prevent 100% of horrible Covid death" thing is no longer accurate?
WHAT THE HELL DO I BELIEVE ANY MORE?!?! I DON'T KNOW!
And then there's the variants, and all of the bad ones are IN my county RIGHT NOW. Do I still need to be just as much in fear as I ever was because of those, or not? Like so far they think it's mostly okay, but I got Pfizer and they're checking it in Moderna but assume it's the same and....
Uh, can you see why my risk assessment has gone haywire from all of this? I do not know what to believe is actually safe or "safe" or literally ANYTHING, and the stakes are life and death if I fuck up.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:24 PM on April 23, 2021 [42 favorites]
Going back to some romanticized, traditional aspect of our culture because things were supposedly better for us has never been anything but nostalgic bullshit. Wash your fucking hands and cook ground meat to 75C/165F.I think that's kind of a strawman version of this argument, though. They're not saying you should eat raw pork and live in squalor. They're saying you should not use antibiotics for something that is probably a virus, that you should lay off the antibacterial soap, and that you should maybe not make bleach your primary cleaning supply, because sterilizing your entire home is actually not necessary or advisable. They're not arguing that we should go back to the days when people routinely died of ear infections. There has to be some nuance here.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:33 PM on April 23, 2021 [65 favorites]
I have been worrying about this for a while, as my grandchildren, 5 and almost 2, have not been around anyone but their parents since the pandemic started. The older boy will start kindergarten in the fall, and I wonder what kind of immunity they have to other diseases, not just covid. Of course they have had all their childhood vaccinations, their parents believe in science, but they were super-clean even before the pandemic. We are not. They live in a far away state, so we have not seen them in over a year. We have been pretty strict too, being old, but we do wear masks, social distance and mostly have only gone to the food store and drug store.
posted by mermayd at 3:40 PM on April 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by mermayd at 3:40 PM on April 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
You know how you read a Wikipedia entry of someone in the 17th century and they had like 16 children and only 7 survived to adulthood? That's because instead of getting to adulthood with all their foibles and genetic deficiencies they. just. died. That's because instead of getting to adulthood with all their foibles and genetic deficiencies they. just. died. Asthmatic? You died at 7. Diabetic? You'd die at 11.
These are interesting and perhaps not fortuitous examples because the frequency these two diseases is a modern occurrence. I think it's pretty well accepted that the increase in asthma is related directly to excessive hygiene, and most diabetes is type ii and related to diet.
You had things like infected wounds, pneumonia in the pre-antibiotic age, and, once we were in cities, bad sewage. Treatment was often horrific. These were driving mortality. It wasn't like 60% of the kids were "genetically unfit" for the time. It was mostly random environmental factors.
We have ways of dealing with this, and practices like building a city and dumping feces into you drinking water are absolutely a bad idea. No one is saying otherwise. It does not follow from this that using antibacterial soap on counters is providing a benefit.
posted by mark k at 3:48 PM on April 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
These are interesting and perhaps not fortuitous examples because the frequency these two diseases is a modern occurrence. I think it's pretty well accepted that the increase in asthma is related directly to excessive hygiene, and most diabetes is type ii and related to diet.
You had things like infected wounds, pneumonia in the pre-antibiotic age, and, once we were in cities, bad sewage. Treatment was often horrific. These were driving mortality. It wasn't like 60% of the kids were "genetically unfit" for the time. It was mostly random environmental factors.
We have ways of dealing with this, and practices like building a city and dumping feces into you drinking water are absolutely a bad idea. No one is saying otherwise. It does not follow from this that using antibacterial soap on counters is providing a benefit.
posted by mark k at 3:48 PM on April 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
It is true that we don't know for sure that we cannot obliterate its [sars-cov-2] existence eventually
sorry no. the reason we could eliminate smallpox is because it has no animal reservoir. immunize all the people, it has nowhere to go.
all the coronaviruses have an animal reservoir; it can always jump to humans, over and over again.
posted by j_curiouser at 4:04 PM on April 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
sorry no. the reason we could eliminate smallpox is because it has no animal reservoir. immunize all the people, it has nowhere to go.
all the coronaviruses have an animal reservoir; it can always jump to humans, over and over again.
posted by j_curiouser at 4:04 PM on April 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
(For what it's worth, the only reason I said "we don't know for sure" is because we just can't ever know the future with pure undeniable certainty and if I hadn't said it someone would have, no doubt, jumped on my unscientific hubris in claiming to know the future written in our stars. The internet is an impossible place all of the time, though, this much is certain.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:10 PM on April 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:10 PM on April 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
I am now seeing stories this week about people who are 100% fully vaccinated for weeks STILL dying of Covid. So does that mean the whole "the vaccines prevent 100% of horrible Covid death" thing is no longer accurate?
The numbers from your second-linked article, which I quote below, say there have been 74 COVID deaths in 78.5 million vaccinated people.
About 5,800 of more 78.5 million vaccinated Americans — 0.0074% — have become infected by the virus, according to new data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Of these, 396 required hospitalization and 74 people died, the CDC said
For comparison, the overall COVID death rate in the United States is 173.76 per 100k people.
Overall US death rate: 173.76/100k = 0.0017376
Vaccinated US death rate: 74/78.5 million = 0.00000094
That means the vaccines are 1 - (0.00000094/0.0017376) = 0.99945902394 x 100 = 99.95% effective at preventing death from COVID.
I appreciate that there is lots of confusing info floating around about risk, but please, let’s understand that these vaccines are in fact extremely effective at preventing death from COVID. That has not changed.
(Probably the real effectiveness number is even higher, since the current vaccinated population is likely to contain more high-risk people compared to the total US population — because high-risk people were of course prioritized for vaccination first. If we looked at an unvaccinated population of equivalently high risk to the vaccinated population, I suspect their death rate would be higher than 173.76 per 100k. That would make the vaccinated death rate of 0.094 per 100k an even bigger reduction.)
posted by snowmentality at 4:20 PM on April 23, 2021 [60 favorites]
The numbers from your second-linked article, which I quote below, say there have been 74 COVID deaths in 78.5 million vaccinated people.
About 5,800 of more 78.5 million vaccinated Americans — 0.0074% — have become infected by the virus, according to new data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Of these, 396 required hospitalization and 74 people died, the CDC said
For comparison, the overall COVID death rate in the United States is 173.76 per 100k people.
Overall US death rate: 173.76/100k = 0.0017376
Vaccinated US death rate: 74/78.5 million = 0.00000094
That means the vaccines are 1 - (0.00000094/0.0017376) = 0.99945902394 x 100 = 99.95% effective at preventing death from COVID.
I appreciate that there is lots of confusing info floating around about risk, but please, let’s understand that these vaccines are in fact extremely effective at preventing death from COVID. That has not changed.
(Probably the real effectiveness number is even higher, since the current vaccinated population is likely to contain more high-risk people compared to the total US population — because high-risk people were of course prioritized for vaccination first. If we looked at an unvaccinated population of equivalently high risk to the vaccinated population, I suspect their death rate would be higher than 173.76 per 100k. That would make the vaccinated death rate of 0.094 per 100k an even bigger reduction.)
posted by snowmentality at 4:20 PM on April 23, 2021 [60 favorites]
I do not know what to believe is actually safe or "safe" or literally ANYTHING, and the stakes are life and death if I fuck up.
Fair enough on crappy public-health messaging, but, well. Some of this stuff is just not that complicated--not anymore. We know what the current efficacy of the various vaccines is; we have a pretty good idea of how much they affect transmission. You have to apply your media literacy skills in choosing how you evaluate media reports and especially how you react to message-board people working themselves up.
I am now seeing stories this week about people who are 100% fully vaccinated for weeks STILL dying of Covid.
But this is exactly what I'm talking about. You are really seriously at some point going to have to sit down and get your mind around the fact that you were at risk of contracting and dying of any number of transmissible diseases prior to COVID, and yet led your life. You were NEVER fully safe, and you're NEVER GOING TO BE fully safe. Yes, a handful of people have died post-vaccination of COVID, out of tens of millions. If you're waiting for the moment when you have zero chance of dying of COVID, you are literally going to have to stay in your house for the rest of your life. (And why COVID and not flu? Or Ebola? Or H1N1?) You made a risk assessment before that led to your conclusion that the benefits of leaving your house outweighed the risks, and you're going to need to bring yourself to a similar conclusion when looking at similar risks--which is where fully vaccinated people are right now (and where prior to vaccination we absolutely were not). Of course I'm not saying you personally have to do any particular thing, especially not this minute, but if you ever want to go back to life, you'll need to make this calculation at some point, because current science does not have the tools to eradicate COVID.
posted by praemunire at 4:27 PM on April 23, 2021 [45 favorites]
Fair enough on crappy public-health messaging, but, well. Some of this stuff is just not that complicated--not anymore. We know what the current efficacy of the various vaccines is; we have a pretty good idea of how much they affect transmission. You have to apply your media literacy skills in choosing how you evaluate media reports and especially how you react to message-board people working themselves up.
I am now seeing stories this week about people who are 100% fully vaccinated for weeks STILL dying of Covid.
But this is exactly what I'm talking about. You are really seriously at some point going to have to sit down and get your mind around the fact that you were at risk of contracting and dying of any number of transmissible diseases prior to COVID, and yet led your life. You were NEVER fully safe, and you're NEVER GOING TO BE fully safe. Yes, a handful of people have died post-vaccination of COVID, out of tens of millions. If you're waiting for the moment when you have zero chance of dying of COVID, you are literally going to have to stay in your house for the rest of your life. (And why COVID and not flu? Or Ebola? Or H1N1?) You made a risk assessment before that led to your conclusion that the benefits of leaving your house outweighed the risks, and you're going to need to bring yourself to a similar conclusion when looking at similar risks--which is where fully vaccinated people are right now (and where prior to vaccination we absolutely were not). Of course I'm not saying you personally have to do any particular thing, especially not this minute, but if you ever want to go back to life, you'll need to make this calculation at some point, because current science does not have the tools to eradicate COVID.
posted by praemunire at 4:27 PM on April 23, 2021 [45 favorites]
I think it's pretty well accepted that the increase in asthma is related directly to excessive hygiene, and most diabetes is type ii and related to diet.
There are 3x as many kids with Type I Diabetes (autoimmune) as with Type 2, so no. Those kids almost always died within weeks of onset of disease before the discovery of insulin.
Asthma is far far far more related to pollution than hygiene.
posted by shesdeadimalive at 4:32 PM on April 23, 2021 [37 favorites]
There are 3x as many kids with Type I Diabetes (autoimmune) as with Type 2, so no. Those kids almost always died within weeks of onset of disease before the discovery of insulin.
Asthma is far far far more related to pollution than hygiene.
posted by shesdeadimalive at 4:32 PM on April 23, 2021 [37 favorites]
That means the vaccines are 1 - (0.00000094/0.0017376) = 0.99945902394 x 100 = 99.95% effective at preventing death from COVID.
The vaccine is very effective but this math is off by a lot. You need to adjust for person-years of exposure (among other variables) before you do a ratio like this; obviously far more unvaccinated people have been exposed for a far longer time to the virus.
posted by mark k at 4:38 PM on April 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
The vaccine is very effective but this math is off by a lot. You need to adjust for person-years of exposure (among other variables) before you do a ratio like this; obviously far more unvaccinated people have been exposed for a far longer time to the virus.
posted by mark k at 4:38 PM on April 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
To clarify: I am wildly cavalier about bacteria, but I'm also a vegetarian and that eliminates a whole world of infection. I'm very careful about refrigeration of spoilables. I'm totally respectful of the virus though. I'm a double masker, antisocial stay-the-fuck-outta-my-space case, and hand washer for those bad boys. As an autistic introvert I avoid getting near people, esp children, the vectors of viruses.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 5:09 PM on April 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 5:09 PM on April 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Wait there’s a cure for anti-vaxxers? Get that paper published stat.
The original hygiene hypothesis postulated benefits from childhood diseases such as measles, mumps, and rubella which we now routinely vaccinate against:
posted by jamjam at 5:12 PM on April 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
The original hygiene hypothesis postulated benefits from childhood diseases such as measles, mumps, and rubella which we now routinely vaccinate against:
Graph the data points, and the trend is unmistakable. Since the 1950s, rates of multiple sclerosis, Crohn’s disease, type 1 diabetes, and asthma have soared by 300% or more (1). Similar graphs depict concurrent spikes in hay fever and food allergies (2).And I've seen many instances of anti-vaxxers citing the hygiene hypothesis to support opposition to vaccination.
Mirroring this alarming surge in autoimmune and allergic disorders are simultaneous sharp declines in the incidence of mumps, measles, tuberculosis, and other infectious diseases in developed countries, thanks to the advent of vaccines and antibiotics, and to improved hygiene. In the 1990s, scientists began to suspect that two trends were connected: Perhaps the reduction in infections was causing human immune systems to malfunction in some way.
That “hygiene hypothesis,” first proposed in 1989 (3), has become enshrined in popular culture: We’re too clean for our own good. It’s a straightforward, compelling idea. And many scientists are eager to see it thrown out.
posted by jamjam at 5:12 PM on April 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
You are really seriously at some point going to have to sit down and get your mind around the fact that you were at risk of contracting and dying of any number of transmissible diseases prior to COVID, and yet led your life.
I suspect part of the issue is that many people just weren't fully aware of how many actual risks were at play before COVID shined such a harsh spotlight on the whole business, and are now as a result over-correcting their personal risk assessments. Saying "get over it"* may be technically true, but it's not easy to turn on a mental/emotional dime. It'll take time for some of us to readjust.
*(I know nobody in this thread has said that really, just exaggerating/over-simplyfing to make my point)
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:40 PM on April 23, 2021 [16 favorites]
I suspect part of the issue is that many people just weren't fully aware of how many actual risks were at play before COVID shined such a harsh spotlight on the whole business, and are now as a result over-correcting their personal risk assessments. Saying "get over it"* may be technically true, but it's not easy to turn on a mental/emotional dime. It'll take time for some of us to readjust.
*(I know nobody in this thread has said that really, just exaggerating/over-simplyfing to make my point)
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:40 PM on April 23, 2021 [16 favorites]
That “hygiene hypothesis,” first proposed in 1989 (3), has become enshrined in popular culture: We’re too clean for our own good. It’s a straightforward, compelling idea. And many scientists are eager to see it thrown out.
FWIW my exposure to the hygiene hypothesis in literature always involved exposure to diverse agents (including parasites, w/ helminths as a model organism). Not actually getting sick with measles.
The article is pretty clear that this is still the consensus:
Given this I'm a little confused by the framing of the article that the hygiene hypothesis is being tossed out. It's not my field, but it seems a narrow definition of the hypothesis? Or is it popular culture? This 2006 paper, which is absolutely about helminths protecting mice from asthma, certainly claims to be supporting an clarifying the hypothesis, not refuting it.
posted by mark k at 5:46 PM on April 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
FWIW my exposure to the hygiene hypothesis in literature always involved exposure to diverse agents (including parasites, w/ helminths as a model organism). Not actually getting sick with measles.
The article is pretty clear that this is still the consensus:
However, simultaneous changes in other factors most likely had an even larger influence, says Rook, especially in early life. [ . . .] owning a pet or growing up on a farm is protective against [allergies and asthma] [. . . ]Overcleaning--in the sense of trying to pseudo-sterilize surfaces--is going to impact a lot of these factors and reduce microbe diversity. This is very, very different from "don't get vaccinated" or even "it's good to get a cold occasionally."
“We’re talking about a number of factors, not just one. It’s the diet, sanitation, antibiotic use, parasites, and more,” says Wills-Karp. “We’ve altered all of those simultaneously and overwhelmed the host's ability to modulate the immune system.”
Given this I'm a little confused by the framing of the article that the hygiene hypothesis is being tossed out. It's not my field, but it seems a narrow definition of the hypothesis? Or is it popular culture? This 2006 paper, which is absolutely about helminths protecting mice from asthma, certainly claims to be supporting an clarifying the hypothesis, not refuting it.
posted by mark k at 5:46 PM on April 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
I don't think I've gotten sick less than year, but I have called into work sick less.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:54 PM on April 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:54 PM on April 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
You know how you read a Wikipedia entry of someone in the 17th century and they had like 16 children and only 7 survived to adulthood? That's because instead of getting to adulthood with all their foibles and genetic deficiencies they. just. died.
RE: Lifetime appointments of judges and justices
The Framers' Original Intent was that lifetime appointments ended when the appointee was, on average, about 38 years of age.
posted by mikelieman at 5:56 PM on April 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
RE: Lifetime appointments of judges and justices
The Framers' Original Intent was that lifetime appointments ended when the appointee was, on average, about 38 years of age.
posted by mikelieman at 5:56 PM on April 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
No one at the time expected an adult male to die at 38 years.
Picking the first 5 founders that come to mind (Washington, Franklin, Madison, Morris, Hamilton) the age of death was 77, 84, 85, 64 and about 49 respectively. The first two Chief Justices I can name (Jay and Marshall) lived to 84 and 80.
posted by mark k at 6:05 PM on April 23, 2021 [30 favorites]
Picking the first 5 founders that come to mind (Washington, Franklin, Madison, Morris, Hamilton) the age of death was 77, 84, 85, 64 and about 49 respectively. The first two Chief Justices I can name (Jay and Marshall) lived to 84 and 80.
posted by mark k at 6:05 PM on April 23, 2021 [30 favorites]
> The Framers' Original Intent was that lifetime appointments ended when the appointee was, on average, about 38 years of age.
Uh, no. Not really. 38 might have been the infant life expectancy or average life expectancy at birth during the 18th century, but it certainly wasn't the life expectancy for someone who had already made it to adulthood or middle age. Once you made it through infancy and childhood and dodged the bullets of measles, smallpox, yellow fever, etc. etc., you were probably good for a good few decades at least.
E.g. life expectancy for a 50-year-old between 1791–1815 was 67.26. Obviously the later in life you go, the more the curve flattens out—but the depressing thing is that the longest-lived people today don't live that much spectacularly longer than the longest-lived people back then. We've done a very good job of eliminating childhood diseases that really brought down the average life expectancy (and probably drove people to have needlessly large families), but not a lot to address aging qua aging.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:09 PM on April 23, 2021 [22 favorites]
Uh, no. Not really. 38 might have been the infant life expectancy or average life expectancy at birth during the 18th century, but it certainly wasn't the life expectancy for someone who had already made it to adulthood or middle age. Once you made it through infancy and childhood and dodged the bullets of measles, smallpox, yellow fever, etc. etc., you were probably good for a good few decades at least.
E.g. life expectancy for a 50-year-old between 1791–1815 was 67.26. Obviously the later in life you go, the more the curve flattens out—but the depressing thing is that the longest-lived people today don't live that much spectacularly longer than the longest-lived people back then. We've done a very good job of eliminating childhood diseases that really brought down the average life expectancy (and probably drove people to have needlessly large families), but not a lot to address aging qua aging.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:09 PM on April 23, 2021 [22 favorites]
A huge mortality factor for adult women was childbirth. Maternal death rates could be in the 30% range. Which is why women had to make it past child bearing years to be safe.
I don't see us getting used to germs for a while, at least until we've all settled down for a year with some sort of collective and accepted knowledge of what we should be doing to deal with this new world. As it is we still get new warnings and changes coming from health authorities regularly, which are hard enough to manage for many.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 6:19 PM on April 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
I don't see us getting used to germs for a while, at least until we've all settled down for a year with some sort of collective and accepted knowledge of what we should be doing to deal with this new world. As it is we still get new warnings and changes coming from health authorities regularly, which are hard enough to manage for many.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 6:19 PM on April 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
Jenfullmoon, my risk assessment system has also gone haywire. I am currently 1 week post-second shot, and the two pre-pandemic things I know I am going to do sfter next week are get a haircut and get an eye appointment, since I desperately need both. Other than that...I like the idea of being able to do some things again, but feeling comfortable enough to actually do them is something else. Just because I can doesn't necessarily mean I should, you know? I think it's just going to be baby steps for me to start.
posted by SisterHavana at 6:50 PM on April 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by SisterHavana at 6:50 PM on April 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
Maybe I’m just in a conciliatory mood, but it feels like there should be some common ground between “sterilize everything” and “drink from the neighborhood cup near the sewage pipes”
posted by condour75 at 6:56 PM on April 23, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by condour75 at 6:56 PM on April 23, 2021 [20 favorites]
I suspect part of the issue is that many people just weren't fully aware of how many actual risks were at play before COVID shined such a harsh spotlight on the whole business
Also, many of us experienced a year where we had unprecedented control over these risks (those of us in industries where WFH became the norm). Having experienced a year of not being sick even once does make me rethink a bit how I want to act going forward.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:56 PM on April 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
Also, many of us experienced a year where we had unprecedented control over these risks (those of us in industries where WFH became the norm). Having experienced a year of not being sick even once does make me rethink a bit how I want to act going forward.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:56 PM on April 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
For autoimmune diseases, the jury is out.
From the MS wiki:
Proposed mechanisms include the hygiene hypothesis and the prevalence hypothesis. The hygiene hypothesis proposes that exposure to certain infectious agents early in life is protective, the disease is a response to a late encounter with such agents. The prevalence hypothesis proposes that the disease is due to an infectious agent more common in regions where MS is common and where, in most individuals, it causes an ongoing infection without symptoms. Only in a few cases and after many years does it cause demyelination. The hygiene hypothesis has received more support than the prevalence hypothesis.
Evidence for a virus as a cause include the presence of oligoclonal bands in the brain and cerebrospinal fluid of most people with MS, the association of several viruses with human demyelination encephalomyelitis, and the occurrence of demyelination in animals caused by some viral infections. Human herpes viruses are a candidate group of viruses. Individuals having never been infected by the Epstein–Barr virus are at a reduced risk of getting MS, whereas those infected as young adults are at a greater risk than those having had it at a younger age. Although some consider that this goes against the hygiene hypothesis, since the non-infected have probably experienced a more hygienic upbringing, others believe that there is no contradiction, since it is a first encounter with the causative virus relatively late in life that is the trigger for the disease. Other diseases that may be related include measles, mumps and rubella.
posted by mephisjo at 7:15 PM on April 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
From the MS wiki:
Proposed mechanisms include the hygiene hypothesis and the prevalence hypothesis. The hygiene hypothesis proposes that exposure to certain infectious agents early in life is protective, the disease is a response to a late encounter with such agents. The prevalence hypothesis proposes that the disease is due to an infectious agent more common in regions where MS is common and where, in most individuals, it causes an ongoing infection without symptoms. Only in a few cases and after many years does it cause demyelination. The hygiene hypothesis has received more support than the prevalence hypothesis.
Evidence for a virus as a cause include the presence of oligoclonal bands in the brain and cerebrospinal fluid of most people with MS, the association of several viruses with human demyelination encephalomyelitis, and the occurrence of demyelination in animals caused by some viral infections. Human herpes viruses are a candidate group of viruses. Individuals having never been infected by the Epstein–Barr virus are at a reduced risk of getting MS, whereas those infected as young adults are at a greater risk than those having had it at a younger age. Although some consider that this goes against the hygiene hypothesis, since the non-infected have probably experienced a more hygienic upbringing, others believe that there is no contradiction, since it is a first encounter with the causative virus relatively late in life that is the trigger for the disease. Other diseases that may be related include measles, mumps and rubella.
posted by mephisjo at 7:15 PM on April 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
METAFILTER: some common ground between “sterilize everything” and “drink from the neighborhood cup near the sewage pipes”
posted by philip-random at 7:22 PM on April 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 7:22 PM on April 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
I decided to accept these risks and put my daughter in pre-school 2x a week. She's gone 5 times and now she's sick. She hasn't been sick in over a year. It's just the sniffles, but the level of panic I feel about it is roughly similar to when she was hospitalized with bronchiolitis as an infant. I am a nurse. All adults in her life are fully vaccinated, including preschool teachers. I know she's fine. And yet COVID has really messed me up.
Because if she can get this virus even with COVID precautions...what else can she get? Big, looming, scary uncertainty.
posted by shesdeadimalive at 7:26 PM on April 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
Because if she can get this virus even with COVID precautions...what else can she get? Big, looming, scary uncertainty.
posted by shesdeadimalive at 7:26 PM on April 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
Also, many of us experienced a year where we had unprecedented control over these risks (those of us in industries where WFH became the norm). Having experienced a year of not being sick even once does make me rethink a bit how I want to act going forward.
This. Just over ten years ago I got H1N1 and had to be in the hospital for my pneumonia. I knew there was an outbreak, but I just went about my normal life. Now it seems unimaginable that it never occurred to me to wear a mask. In the future I think mask wearing will be much more a part of my life.
posted by medusa at 7:39 PM on April 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
This. Just over ten years ago I got H1N1 and had to be in the hospital for my pneumonia. I knew there was an outbreak, but I just went about my normal life. Now it seems unimaginable that it never occurred to me to wear a mask. In the future I think mask wearing will be much more a part of my life.
posted by medusa at 7:39 PM on April 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
more like,
Metafilter: big, looming, scary uncertainty
posted by alex_skazat at 7:47 PM on April 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
Metafilter: big, looming, scary uncertainty
posted by alex_skazat at 7:47 PM on April 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
Oh man I am really not looking forward to the first cold my kids bring home when they go back to in person school in the fall. Plus the whole super rare but you need to be on alert for MIS-C symptoms for 2-3 weeks after your kid maybe had covid or guess what they can get MIS-C after asymptomatic covid you never knew they had!
All the adults in my kids life are fully vaccinated but until the rates in the population go way down or they get their turn for the shot we will still be very guarded with them. But I am looking forward to my eye doctor appointment next week. Hopefully a haircut soon too.
posted by wilky at 8:01 PM on April 23, 2021
All the adults in my kids life are fully vaccinated but until the rates in the population go way down or they get their turn for the shot we will still be very guarded with them. But I am looking forward to my eye doctor appointment next week. Hopefully a haircut soon too.
posted by wilky at 8:01 PM on April 23, 2021
My 3-year-old son has been going to daycare since last fall and got his first bug this week. He spent Tuesday night barfing. Last night, my wife says, “I feel a little funny.” By midnight, we were swapping turns in the bathroom, between the vomit and explosive diarrhea.
I’ll be honest, I could have done without a reminder of what sickness could be like in the before times.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:09 PM on April 23, 2021 [11 favorites]
I’ll be honest, I could have done without a reminder of what sickness could be like in the before times.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:09 PM on April 23, 2021 [11 favorites]
oddly, my first cold ended yesterday and yes theres something... perhaps the subconscious got fed, dunno but it was like a reset and I'm 9 hours into my first vaccine shot.
This thing is a fucking nightmare. Once I had flu, 45 years ago as viral phenomena... the week Elvis died. It's like some symptoms in tiny spurts. Smoking, the new self flagellation is one hit oktimetoquit.
But what tripped me was a neighbor who' most likely won't get one, just wait till your all stalks in a year nonsense and I thought well I wasn't really, I was blurry, a cbd beverage, Motrin aceptemenphen sic sp and two drams of Glenfiddich.
Ive nearly dropped the phone on to bonfire and Mars is fading in the telescope.
I've been told to slowly put the phone away.
get vaccinated.
posted by clavdivs at 8:32 PM on April 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
This thing is a fucking nightmare. Once I had flu, 45 years ago as viral phenomena... the week Elvis died. It's like some symptoms in tiny spurts. Smoking, the new self flagellation is one hit oktimetoquit.
But what tripped me was a neighbor who' most likely won't get one, just wait till your all stalks in a year nonsense and I thought well I wasn't really, I was blurry, a cbd beverage, Motrin aceptemenphen sic sp and two drams of Glenfiddich.
Ive nearly dropped the phone on to bonfire and Mars is fading in the telescope.
I've been told to slowly put the phone away.
get vaccinated.
posted by clavdivs at 8:32 PM on April 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
My mother had polio as a kid and she is freaky about germs, which are probably related. It had a very bad impact on me growing up because she didn't know how to manage it emotionally. Hopefully I, and my children, can talk about it instead of burying it in a rainbow of good cheer and then freak out about raw chicken two rooms away.
I do see the shadows of that obsession but I also see that my kids are okay rolling around in dirt in the backyard, so.
I suspect we'll all twitch at people coughing for a long while. And then maybe one day we won't.
I think the habit of wearing masks when feeling a bit under the weather to protect others is complex social behaviour and...I hope we get there actually, I think I'll try to do my part.
It's going to feel scary going back into more regular activities. I've had to work outside the house this year and have gotten two colds and each time the COVID test has come back negative it's been like HOW DID THIS HAPPEN.
It hasn't killed me because there's no choice, you just at that point have a cold and you get through it. Life will probably be like the first year of daycare/school which is...dreadful, everyone is low-grade sick all the time and then a cold creates an ear infection, so you take antibiotics, and then you get a yeast infection, and then you get a sinus infection and you don't want to get yeast again so you ignore it until you're really sick...finally you feel better and then a norovirus hits.
...why yes I have been through this year a couple of times. With everyone sick everyone's productivity will suffer and so I steel myself against the inevitable think pieces that working from home ruined everyone's work ethic when really it's that we all want to lie down while being sick.
After the norovirus everyone will be bleaching things regardless of good intentions at the start. :)
Once we get there I am laying in simple meals and lots of echinacea and honey ginger tea.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:06 PM on April 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
I do see the shadows of that obsession but I also see that my kids are okay rolling around in dirt in the backyard, so.
I suspect we'll all twitch at people coughing for a long while. And then maybe one day we won't.
I think the habit of wearing masks when feeling a bit under the weather to protect others is complex social behaviour and...I hope we get there actually, I think I'll try to do my part.
It's going to feel scary going back into more regular activities. I've had to work outside the house this year and have gotten two colds and each time the COVID test has come back negative it's been like HOW DID THIS HAPPEN.
It hasn't killed me because there's no choice, you just at that point have a cold and you get through it. Life will probably be like the first year of daycare/school which is...dreadful, everyone is low-grade sick all the time and then a cold creates an ear infection, so you take antibiotics, and then you get a yeast infection, and then you get a sinus infection and you don't want to get yeast again so you ignore it until you're really sick...finally you feel better and then a norovirus hits.
...why yes I have been through this year a couple of times. With everyone sick everyone's productivity will suffer and so I steel myself against the inevitable think pieces that working from home ruined everyone's work ethic when really it's that we all want to lie down while being sick.
After the norovirus everyone will be bleaching things regardless of good intentions at the start. :)
Once we get there I am laying in simple meals and lots of echinacea and honey ginger tea.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:06 PM on April 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
I ate indoors at a restaurant for the first time in a very long time the other day. It was both nice, and really weird. It's definitely going to take me a while to feel "normal" with all kinds of routine things, and I'm expecting it to be a slow process. I have friends who I don't think will ever go back to normal, and others who barely let the pandemic change anything.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:33 PM on April 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 9:33 PM on April 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Balance in all things
takes more cognitive space than just doing the one thing you think is virtuous, all the time, and to the utmost degree.
posted by amtho at 9:42 PM on April 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
takes more cognitive space than just doing the one thing you think is virtuous, all the time, and to the utmost degree.
posted by amtho at 9:42 PM on April 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
On a related note, Rolling Stone (not sure if it's paywalled): Being Distanced and Maskless Outside Is Safe. So Why Are We Fighting Over It? Science tells us some things are OK — but guilt, fear, and shame can shape our actions more than rational thought
June Tangney, a psychology professor at George Mason University and author of the book Shame and Guilt, says that people who mask-shame others may be reacting from their own fear. Tangney also got scolded last year, while she was riding her bike maskless. To her, it was a wakeup call to fall in line because she believed she had scared someone with her behavior, regardless of what the science or rules may have said at the time. “Somebody was made very uncomfortable,” she says, adding that we’ll need to be patient while people adjust to changing regulations at this stage in the pandemic, too. “It’s gonna take a while to ease back into quote-unquote ‘normal’ life. Different people are going to have different tolerance of risk.”posted by jenfullmoon at 10:18 PM on April 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
It’s true: everyone who survives this crisis is going to have to cope with its after-effects. We should be empathetic toward one another and respect that people will stay scared, and some people’s fears may not be rational but they are still real. Of course no one should mock or pressure someone who chooses to stay both masked and socially-distanced from others outdoors, but we also absolutely need to stop scolding people for staying socially-distanced and maskless outside. Part of getting through the pandemic will be understanding and trusting the contexts in which we really can feel safe, as difficult as it may be to believe.
I have maintained for years that excessive hygiene makes one weak
More precisely: Seven days of excessive hygiene makes one weak.
posted by fairmettle at 10:42 PM on April 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
More precisely: Seven days of excessive hygiene makes one weak.
posted by fairmettle at 10:42 PM on April 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
We're (late Capitalism - I'm not 'we're' that's for sure!) too impatient, this thing's just started (probably a decade), look at Venice in the 14C, the whole region was probably imposing quarantine for over a century - Lessons from the History of Quarantine, from Plague to Influenza A.
Covid's a chance (probably the first and last) for a pause (reversal) on our destructive path (nothing short of collapse the way we were). Nothing wrong with trade and shipping but valuable dense things; high-protein, high-manufacture, rare metals - and humans who can prove they're paying the way re carbon, or travelling in very low carbon ways - good reason for two-year tourist visas.
posted by unearthed at 10:59 PM on April 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
Covid's a chance (probably the first and last) for a pause (reversal) on our destructive path (nothing short of collapse the way we were). Nothing wrong with trade and shipping but valuable dense things; high-protein, high-manufacture, rare metals - and humans who can prove they're paying the way re carbon, or travelling in very low carbon ways - good reason for two-year tourist visas.
posted by unearthed at 10:59 PM on April 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
I have literally no idea what that comment means unearthed
posted by Justinian at 11:28 PM on April 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:28 PM on April 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
All of the "being dirty keeps my immune system in fighting shape" sounds like "sitting in my orgone box for an hour a day purifies my toxins"
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:22 AM on April 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:22 AM on April 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
Wait you mean it doesn't??
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:43 AM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:43 AM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
We have three cats. We don't enjoy cleaning. I think we're good in the germs department.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:53 AM on April 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:53 AM on April 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
Ironically, in the personal health department, the end of the pandemic will result in my getting significantly sicker.
I've had COPD for 30 years. As a college prof working around hundreds of students, I typically contract 3-5 respiratory infections each year that require using antibiotics. This pattern has been steady for 15 years.
This past year, though, I've been working from home (yes, online instruction sucks for almost everybody). I've been extremely, extremely quarantined. I live alone, have no pets, and leave the house only once a month to pick up a prescription from the Walgreen's drive through.
I go to no social spaces and haven't even been within 15 feet of a neighbor when we chat outside, get my groceries delivered, and again, go absolutely nowhere. I'm a model of extremist quarantining. So even though I'm not a clean freak at home, there have been no real vectors for disease to reach me.
And this past 12 months I've had...no respiratory infections. None. It's been fantastic, from that perspective. Lungs that, while still dealing with COPD, at least aren't constantly gasping through inflammation.
But I got my second Covid shot ten days ago, and in a few weeks, all of my vaccinated friends and I are having a dinner party to celebrate being vaccinated. And soon I'll be going to the store, and to restaurants, and teaching in the class again. And then the colds will start up again, and the respiratory infections, and the courses of antibiotics, etc., etc.
So yeah, a little ironic that the end of the pandemic will mean my physical health will deteriorate significantly as a result. Totally worth it, though.
posted by darkstar at 1:00 AM on April 24, 2021 [27 favorites]
I've had COPD for 30 years. As a college prof working around hundreds of students, I typically contract 3-5 respiratory infections each year that require using antibiotics. This pattern has been steady for 15 years.
This past year, though, I've been working from home (yes, online instruction sucks for almost everybody). I've been extremely, extremely quarantined. I live alone, have no pets, and leave the house only once a month to pick up a prescription from the Walgreen's drive through.
I go to no social spaces and haven't even been within 15 feet of a neighbor when we chat outside, get my groceries delivered, and again, go absolutely nowhere. I'm a model of extremist quarantining. So even though I'm not a clean freak at home, there have been no real vectors for disease to reach me.
And this past 12 months I've had...no respiratory infections. None. It's been fantastic, from that perspective. Lungs that, while still dealing with COPD, at least aren't constantly gasping through inflammation.
But I got my second Covid shot ten days ago, and in a few weeks, all of my vaccinated friends and I are having a dinner party to celebrate being vaccinated. And soon I'll be going to the store, and to restaurants, and teaching in the class again. And then the colds will start up again, and the respiratory infections, and the courses of antibiotics, etc., etc.
So yeah, a little ironic that the end of the pandemic will mean my physical health will deteriorate significantly as a result. Totally worth it, though.
posted by darkstar at 1:00 AM on April 24, 2021 [27 favorites]
I worked a job years ago with a bunch of English lads backpacking. They lived six to a three bedroom flat in Bondi, and maintained you didn’t actually need to shower more that 2-3 times a week. (Tip: If you’re working a physical labour job in Sydney in summer, you do). My boss called them ‘those soap-dodgers’ but I don’t recall they had many sick days
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 1:21 AM on April 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 1:21 AM on April 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
They're saying you should not use antibiotics for something that is probably a virus, that you should lay off the antibacterial soap, and that you should maybe not make bleach your primary cleaning supply, because sterilizing your entire home is actually not necessary or advisable.
Is this something anyone is doing? Like, UK messaging on this for example has been consistent for a while now: hands, face, space. Wash your hands, cover your face, give people space. This whole thing about bleaching surfaces and like a strawman itself, and kinda unrelated to packing people tightly into enclosed poorly ventilated spaces, like indoor dining.
posted by Dysk at 4:07 AM on April 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
Is this something anyone is doing? Like, UK messaging on this for example has been consistent for a while now: hands, face, space. Wash your hands, cover your face, give people space. This whole thing about bleaching surfaces and like a strawman itself, and kinda unrelated to packing people tightly into enclosed poorly ventilated spaces, like indoor dining.
posted by Dysk at 4:07 AM on April 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
And yeah, there are other places in the world that have fucked the messaging up worse than even the Johnson we have on office, but has anyone with any degree of credibility seriously been recommending antibiotics for a virus??
posted by Dysk at 4:12 AM on April 24, 2021
posted by Dysk at 4:12 AM on April 24, 2021
I worked a job years ago with a bunch of English lads backpacking. They lived six to a three bedroom flat in Bondi, and maintained you didn’t actually need to shower more that 2-3 times a week.
I don't think it's like that anymore, but I remember that when I was a teenager back in the 70s, the English were infamous among the interrail crowd for not being keen about hygiene. I don't know if that meant they had less allergies, though.
On the other hand, I didn't develop hay fever before I moved from England (via Germany) to Denmark when I was nine. Denmark has been very big on hygiene since the last part of the nineteenth century because of the pork and dairy industry. Denmark is clean.
posted by mumimor at 5:12 AM on April 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's like that anymore, but I remember that when I was a teenager back in the 70s, the English were infamous among the interrail crowd for not being keen about hygiene. I don't know if that meant they had less allergies, though.
On the other hand, I didn't develop hay fever before I moved from England (via Germany) to Denmark when I was nine. Denmark has been very big on hygiene since the last part of the nineteenth century because of the pork and dairy industry. Denmark is clean.
posted by mumimor at 5:12 AM on April 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
This whole thing about bleaching surfaces and like a strawman itself, and kinda unrelated to packing people tightly into enclosed poorly ventilated spaces, like indoor dining.
It’s not at all a straw man from a US context. Many businesses, such as restaurants, still advertise “Disinfect all surfaces between customers.” As their primary mitigation strategy.
posted by meinvt at 5:16 AM on April 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
It’s not at all a straw man from a US context. Many businesses, such as restaurants, still advertise “Disinfect all surfaces between customers.” As their primary mitigation strategy.
posted by meinvt at 5:16 AM on April 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
Many businesses, such as restaurants, still advertise “Disinfect all surfaces between customers"
IMO it's done solely to appease/attract those on the fence about dining out... there are a class of customers who want to resume The Old Ways but can't quite talk themselves into it. Something in the cleanup theatre allows them to let themselves off the hook.
They also see that many places still have plexiglass shields up between tables, are still marking every other as non-usable; disallowing sending drinks to others' tables, etc. (at least where I live, those at still how restaurants that are back open are doing things).
I am wondering how long these protocols will stay in place? I can only think that such restaurants are making up the difference in carryout business, to balance out revenue lost from cutting their in-house capacity that much.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 5:26 AM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
IMO it's done solely to appease/attract those on the fence about dining out... there are a class of customers who want to resume The Old Ways but can't quite talk themselves into it. Something in the cleanup theatre allows them to let themselves off the hook.
They also see that many places still have plexiglass shields up between tables, are still marking every other as non-usable; disallowing sending drinks to others' tables, etc. (at least where I live, those at still how restaurants that are back open are doing things).
I am wondering how long these protocols will stay in place? I can only think that such restaurants are making up the difference in carryout business, to balance out revenue lost from cutting their in-house capacity that much.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 5:26 AM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
Many businesses, such as restaurants, still advertise “Disinfect all surfaces between customers.” As their primary mitigation strategy.
Christ alive. That does nothing to address the actual vectors of Covid transmission. Don't go to indoor restaurants if you're not vaccinated. Bleach has nothing to do with it either way.
posted by Dysk at 7:48 AM on April 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
Christ alive. That does nothing to address the actual vectors of Covid transmission. Don't go to indoor restaurants if you're not vaccinated. Bleach has nothing to do with it either way.
posted by Dysk at 7:48 AM on April 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
but has anyone with any degree of credibility seriously been recommending antibiotics for a virus?
Not really, but that doesn't mean that patients aren't getting them. This is the study linked to in the article, talking about over-prescription of antibiotics. (I would note here that it was done by by researchers with the Pew Charitable Trusts' antibiotic resistance project.)
Looking at it, one of the problems seems to be that it takes up to 48 hours to do a culture to determine whether there is a bacterial infection present. And while COVID-19 is a virus, you can still have an associated bacterial infection. So some doctors chose in some cases to assume that it could be bacterial pneumonia and gave antibiotics immediately rather than waiting for confirmation. (Sometimes they were right, sometimes they were wrong, and most of the latter seemed to stop antibiotics at that point.)
I've had a similar (but less serious) experience - a bad bronchitis just before Christmas meant that it would probably be a week or so before any results would be back. So the doctor decided to give me an antibiotic straight away rather than wait to see if it were bacterial.
posted by scorbet at 7:57 AM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
Not really, but that doesn't mean that patients aren't getting them. This is the study linked to in the article, talking about over-prescription of antibiotics. (I would note here that it was done by by researchers with the Pew Charitable Trusts' antibiotic resistance project.)
Looking at it, one of the problems seems to be that it takes up to 48 hours to do a culture to determine whether there is a bacterial infection present. And while COVID-19 is a virus, you can still have an associated bacterial infection. So some doctors chose in some cases to assume that it could be bacterial pneumonia and gave antibiotics immediately rather than waiting for confirmation. (Sometimes they were right, sometimes they were wrong, and most of the latter seemed to stop antibiotics at that point.)
I've had a similar (but less serious) experience - a bad bronchitis just before Christmas meant that it would probably be a week or so before any results would be back. So the doctor decided to give me an antibiotic straight away rather than wait to see if it were bacterial.
posted by scorbet at 7:57 AM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
we also absolutely need to stop scolding people for staying socially-distanced and maskless outside.
I live in a city so it can get crowded on the street, and I can guarantee that people without masks also do not social distance. Plus everyone swears up and down that they practice social distancing, but you are pretty lucky when people stay more than a foot away from you.
However, one of the things I do enjoy most about current precautions is not getting jostled in crowds. I would love it if people continued to stay a foot away from me.
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:12 AM on April 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
I live in a city so it can get crowded on the street, and I can guarantee that people without masks also do not social distance. Plus everyone swears up and down that they practice social distancing, but you are pretty lucky when people stay more than a foot away from you.
However, one of the things I do enjoy most about current precautions is not getting jostled in crowds. I would love it if people continued to stay a foot away from me.
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:12 AM on April 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
>>They're saying you should not use antibiotics for something that is probably a virus, that you should lay off the antibacterial soap, and that you should maybe not make bleach your primary cleaning supply, because sterilizing your entire home is actually not necessary or advisable.
>Is this something anyone is doing? Like, UK messaging on this for example has been consistent for a while now: hands, face, space. Wash your hands, cover your face, give people space. This whole thing about bleaching surfaces and like a strawman itself, and kinda unrelated to packing people tightly into enclosed poorly ventilated spaces, like indoor dining.
It's definitely a thing, and not just at restaurants. As an easy example, there was an AskMe yesterday where the person described plans to bring a gallon of bleach for surface cleaning plus spray disinfectant. I think it is a mix of the legacy of the confused public health messaging, as well as giving people a sense of control.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:12 AM on April 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
>Is this something anyone is doing? Like, UK messaging on this for example has been consistent for a while now: hands, face, space. Wash your hands, cover your face, give people space. This whole thing about bleaching surfaces and like a strawman itself, and kinda unrelated to packing people tightly into enclosed poorly ventilated spaces, like indoor dining.
It's definitely a thing, and not just at restaurants. As an easy example, there was an AskMe yesterday where the person described plans to bring a gallon of bleach for surface cleaning plus spray disinfectant. I think it is a mix of the legacy of the confused public health messaging, as well as giving people a sense of control.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:12 AM on April 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
As usual, a lot of it comes back to the insane work schedule. If you are a salaried employee you might actually have sick days to take but that just means you stay home and log on and still work a regular day. If you are not salaried you probably don’t get sick days. Or you could even be working two jobs. A lot of doctors recognize that you don’t have time to wait for definitive test results and make their best guess. We literally don’t have time to be a healthy society.
posted by double bubble at 8:15 AM on April 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by double bubble at 8:15 AM on April 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
we also absolutely need to stop scolding people for staying socially-distanced and maskless outside.
This is where, I think, it's important to interpret any shift in rule through the lens of "how will it be taken by someone who isn't particularly caring about the specifics?" (and "how will it be taken by people looking for the most room within the rules", but that one's going to be trouble no matter what)
See: Texas, where the fighting between federal, state, county, & city restrictions has led to outcomes of people believing "You aren't allowed to ask that I have a mask on indoors" and "You aren't supposed to have a mask on, they were banned/don't do anything/etc."
So if we say "being socially distanced & maskless outside is alright", per above assume that means that even the minimal "don't go shoulder-to-shoulder with people inside a grocery store" distance people have been sometimes-following goes out the window.
posted by CrystalDave at 9:17 AM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
This is where, I think, it's important to interpret any shift in rule through the lens of "how will it be taken by someone who isn't particularly caring about the specifics?" (and "how will it be taken by people looking for the most room within the rules", but that one's going to be trouble no matter what)
See: Texas, where the fighting between federal, state, county, & city restrictions has led to outcomes of people believing "You aren't allowed to ask that I have a mask on indoors" and "You aren't supposed to have a mask on, they were banned/don't do anything/etc."
So if we say "being socially distanced & maskless outside is alright", per above assume that means that even the minimal "don't go shoulder-to-shoulder with people inside a grocery store" distance people have been sometimes-following goes out the window.
posted by CrystalDave at 9:17 AM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
This whole thing about bleaching surfaces and like a strawman itself
These concerns all predate Covid. People do it. Stories that researchers can culture and genotype bacteria in sponges, wash cloths, beards or cutting boards get played up for shock value and some people react with fear. I've had people tell me not to use sponges. Overuse of antibiotics, overcleaning, etc. has been the topic of a lot of scientific discussion. Doctors used to give antibiotics to patients routine before surgery as a preventive measure; only in recent years have studies shown this lengthens recovery time, presumably by messing with your microbiome. So 100% not a straw man.
As far as Covid messaging, it's ramped everything up. If you browse AskMe you'll see that a lot of people worried about Covid have rigorous cleaning regimes.
The point of TFA is that we're starting with bad practices and adding in Covid responses. It links to a PNAS article that's more interesting and I'm reading now. (article is here, but paywalled)
And yeah, there are other places in the world that have fucked the messaging up worse than even the Johnson we have on office, but has anyone with any degree of credibility seriously been recommending antibiotics for a virus??
Overuse of antibiotics is absolutely not Covid driven. The article mentions a spike in antibiotic use, so Covid made things worse. But it was probably precautionary or emergency and not totally irrational. You can have opportunistic infections in a damaged respiratory system, or be dealing with someone presenting near death and not be 100% sure it's a virus.
posted by mark k at 10:19 AM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
These concerns all predate Covid. People do it. Stories that researchers can culture and genotype bacteria in sponges, wash cloths, beards or cutting boards get played up for shock value and some people react with fear. I've had people tell me not to use sponges. Overuse of antibiotics, overcleaning, etc. has been the topic of a lot of scientific discussion. Doctors used to give antibiotics to patients routine before surgery as a preventive measure; only in recent years have studies shown this lengthens recovery time, presumably by messing with your microbiome. So 100% not a straw man.
As far as Covid messaging, it's ramped everything up. If you browse AskMe you'll see that a lot of people worried about Covid have rigorous cleaning regimes.
The point of TFA is that we're starting with bad practices and adding in Covid responses. It links to a PNAS article that's more interesting and I'm reading now. (article is here, but paywalled)
And yeah, there are other places in the world that have fucked the messaging up worse than even the Johnson we have on office, but has anyone with any degree of credibility seriously been recommending antibiotics for a virus??
Overuse of antibiotics is absolutely not Covid driven. The article mentions a spike in antibiotic use, so Covid made things worse. But it was probably precautionary or emergency and not totally irrational. You can have opportunistic infections in a damaged respiratory system, or be dealing with someone presenting near death and not be 100% sure it's a virus.
posted by mark k at 10:19 AM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
Overuse of antibiotics is absolutely not Covid driven.
TFA suggests it is. TFA ties all of this to Covid, to my reading. My point is that this nonsense isn't actually about covid response at all.
posted by Dysk at 11:10 AM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
TFA suggests it is. TFA ties all of this to Covid, to my reading. My point is that this nonsense isn't actually about covid response at all.
posted by Dysk at 11:10 AM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
I’ll never use hand sanitizer unless I’m asked to, I don’t use anti-bacterial anything or even wash my hands very often. I had normal kid-vaccines - MMR, etc. but I haven’t had a flu shot in at least 20 years. I chew on fingernails and other body bits but only my own.
I’m never sick ever, except for occasional “food-poisoning.” I definitely believe that over-reliance on sanitizers, bleach, and cleaning chemicals leads to a breakdown in an immune system.
That said, I’m alone 98% of the time and whenever I leave my apartment I wear a mask. No one I encounter needs to share in my beliefs or my droplets.
But I’ve believed in the benefits of personal germs and bacteria since the before-times when I first heard that excessive sanitizing reduces our immunity to germs. In my opinion my actions keep me safe, but I’m conscious of other people when I leave the house (maybe an hour a week?) and keep my distance and wear a mask. I’m definitely getting vaccinated.
posted by bendy at 3:10 PM on April 24, 2021
I’m never sick ever, except for occasional “food-poisoning.” I definitely believe that over-reliance on sanitizers, bleach, and cleaning chemicals leads to a breakdown in an immune system.
That said, I’m alone 98% of the time and whenever I leave my apartment I wear a mask. No one I encounter needs to share in my beliefs or my droplets.
But I’ve believed in the benefits of personal germs and bacteria since the before-times when I first heard that excessive sanitizing reduces our immunity to germs. In my opinion my actions keep me safe, but I’m conscious of other people when I leave the house (maybe an hour a week?) and keep my distance and wear a mask. I’m definitely getting vaccinated.
posted by bendy at 3:10 PM on April 24, 2021
That's the trouble, everyone thinks their actions are safe because there's no easy way to prove that's true. We rely on what feels safe, and that's not data. It often contradicts data.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:28 PM on April 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:28 PM on April 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
I chew on fingernails and other body bits but only my own.
*suspicious-Fry*
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:40 PM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
*suspicious-Fry*
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:40 PM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
Maybe I’m just in a conciliatory mood, but it feels like there should be some common ground between “sterilize everything” and “drink from the neighborhood cup near the sewage pipes”
I once saw it postulated as “It’s ok to let your children play in the dirt, just don’t let them play in the dirt with raw chicken breasts”.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 5:03 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
I once saw it postulated as “It’s ok to let your children play in the dirt, just don’t let them play in the dirt with raw chicken breasts”.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 5:03 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
The original hygiene hypothesis postulated benefits from childhood diseases such as measles, mumps, and rubella which we now routinely vaccinate against.
I don't know about mumps or rubella, but measles is exactly the opposite of beneficial to your immune system. It actively erases immunity to other viruses.
I don't know about mumps or rubella, but measles is exactly the opposite of beneficial to your immune system. It actively erases immunity to other viruses.
The findings emphasize how the MMR vaccine protects against more than just measles, says Velislava Petrova, an immunologist at the Wellcome Sanger Institute in Hinxton, UK, who led the Science Immunology study. It also prevents longer-term damage to the immune system that can lead to a resurgence of other diseases, she says.posted by hydropsyche at 5:31 PM on April 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
TFA suggests it is. TFA ties all of this to Covid, to my reading. My point is that this nonsense isn't actually about covid response at all.
TFA focuses on Covid but it's clear enough the author understands it didn't start with Covid. I think this is more obvious if you know the prior discussion or read the linked PNAS paper--this is a standard entry in what's a decade old genre of scientists writing about oversanitization and the microbiome.
Examples from TFA:
posted by mark k at 11:25 PM on April 24, 2021
TFA focuses on Covid but it's clear enough the author understands it didn't start with Covid. I think this is more obvious if you know the prior discussion or read the linked PNAS paper--this is a standard entry in what's a decade old genre of scientists writing about oversanitization and the microbiome.
Examples from TFA:
Before the pandemic, there was growing recognition among both doctors and the public that aspects of modern life may be upsetting our balance of healthy microbes, perhaps especially in our guts, and hurting our health as a resultThe Covid response discussion in TFA include lots of stuff; not sure if you're point is you don't believe they're happening or don't believe their helping. They are definitely happening. Some don't help much (wiping down surfaces) and some of which do (avoiding other humans) .
Even before the pandemic, we know that half of antibiotic use was inappropriate.
there are also long-held and deeply embedded sociocultural norms that prioritize hygiene and denigrate dirt and bacteria
posted by mark k at 11:25 PM on April 24, 2021
My point is exactly the one you're making, which I don't agree with you the article does well: that the over-sanitation issue has little to nothing to do with covid. The whole article is framed as being about how covid has created or hugely amplified this problem, a few asides don't really change that.
posted by Dysk at 1:27 AM on April 25, 2021
posted by Dysk at 1:27 AM on April 25, 2021
I have NEVER seen so much pointless sanitizing than after covid hit. It continues even now that it's officially stupid to pretend it does anything.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:57 AM on April 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:57 AM on April 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
Many businesses, such as restaurants, still advertise “Disinfect all surfaces between customers.” As their primary mitigation strategy.
My small business’s insurance broker required us to file a Covid mitigation plan (I’m a bit unclear on where it went) that required this kind of thing, so we did it abd still are doing it. Our province also required a Covid plan that included a big section on cleaning. (And we had to post it visibly.)
It might be dumb but honestly for small business it’s kind of par for the course, like hand washing signs for staff in the bathroom. (Obviously you want to require staff to clean their hands but the sign itself...)
posted by warriorqueen at 7:18 AM on April 25, 2021
My small business’s insurance broker required us to file a Covid mitigation plan (I’m a bit unclear on where it went) that required this kind of thing, so we did it abd still are doing it. Our province also required a Covid plan that included a big section on cleaning. (And we had to post it visibly.)
It might be dumb but honestly for small business it’s kind of par for the course, like hand washing signs for staff in the bathroom. (Obviously you want to require staff to clean their hands but the sign itself...)
posted by warriorqueen at 7:18 AM on April 25, 2021
Restroom hand washing signs are usually required by local health regulations.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:10 AM on April 25, 2021
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:10 AM on April 25, 2021
Many businesses, such as restaurants, still advertise “Disinfect all surfaces between customers.” As their primary mitigation strategy.
In the US, this is directly called for in the CDC restaurant guidance:
Clean and disinfect frequently touched surfaces (e.g., door handles, cash registers, workstations, sink handles, bathroom stalls) at least daily, and as much as possible. Clean shared objects (e.g., payment terminals, tables, countertops/bars, receipt trays, condiment holders) between each use.
There's a whole section on cleaning protocols, avoiding shared contact surfaces, etc.
At least in the state I live in, there is matching guidelines from the state and county authorities requiring sanitizing between customers.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:11 AM on April 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
In the US, this is directly called for in the CDC restaurant guidance:
Clean and disinfect frequently touched surfaces (e.g., door handles, cash registers, workstations, sink handles, bathroom stalls) at least daily, and as much as possible. Clean shared objects (e.g., payment terminals, tables, countertops/bars, receipt trays, condiment holders) between each use.
There's a whole section on cleaning protocols, avoiding shared contact surfaces, etc.
At least in the state I live in, there is matching guidelines from the state and county authorities requiring sanitizing between customers.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:11 AM on April 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Restroom hand washing signs are usually required by local health regulations.
That’s my point.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:28 AM on April 25, 2021
That’s my point.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:28 AM on April 25, 2021
I’ll never use hand sanitizer unless I’m asked to, I don’t use anti-bacterial anything or even wash my hands very often. I had normal kid-vaccines - MMR, etc. but I haven’t had a flu shot in at least 20 years
Please get the flu shots. Even if you don't get noticeably sick when you're a flu carrier because you have a stellar immune system, you can still be a vector of transmission, and that can get vulnerable people sick. As they those old blood pressure medication commercials used to say, "if you don't do it for yourself, do it for the loved ones in your life"
posted by treepour at 1:44 PM on April 25, 2021 [16 favorites]
Please get the flu shots. Even if you don't get noticeably sick when you're a flu carrier because you have a stellar immune system, you can still be a vector of transmission, and that can get vulnerable people sick. As they those old blood pressure medication commercials used to say, "if you don't do it for yourself, do it for the loved ones in your life"
posted by treepour at 1:44 PM on April 25, 2021 [16 favorites]
Going to get my flu shot today. My husband got his through work (primary school finds it well worth covering it's staff) and asked at the pharmacy for me (currently on mat. leave)- last year it was book an appointment, limited stock, this year, maybe they ordered more, maybe people are hesitant, but it's just walk in, please come and get a flu shot. Have to book one for babyfeet though through the council- I think this might be free?
Having a baby in a pandemic is really something. We are in Australia, and things are cautiously opening up. It's just frustrating that not having had much exposure to any germs, we get hit with lots of colds and sniffles. My sister had her second kid just before babyfeet, and she is noting that her second seems to be getting sick. The thing is, the stuff that I'd ordinarily be: meh, you're fine, let's go, - it's now isolate. It's stressful because you go and do something and then maybe you have to cancel the thing you really want to do. This has happened! And you're wondering if it's just allergies, or should you go get a covid swab, (I go get the covid swab for myself, figuring we have the same virus). So I feel like a mega hypochondriak - but we avoided a playdate this weekend because we are travelling on the train this week and you can't go if you are sick. And we've gotten sick from playdates in the past.
Then there's the fun of my anxiety sometimes manifesting as a sore throat- I was a bit stressed leading up to a family holiday (this is OK here) and worked myself into a lather that we would have to cancel and not go because I was sick- I was just anxious and googling that anxiety can have these symptoms made them pass.
Also the judging that I do of parents when someone's kid is snotty nosed! Or when you hear a cough. I hate it.
But I caught baby feet licking the bottom of my shoe (we are a shoes off house) and UGH. Kids are gonna find germs. It's mostly a good thing. Just super stressful, wondering if you will be well for the thing you really want to do.
(I know I'm late to the thread but needed to get to a proper keyboard to structure my thoughts properly.)
posted by freethefeet at 6:30 PM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Having a baby in a pandemic is really something. We are in Australia, and things are cautiously opening up. It's just frustrating that not having had much exposure to any germs, we get hit with lots of colds and sniffles. My sister had her second kid just before babyfeet, and she is noting that her second seems to be getting sick. The thing is, the stuff that I'd ordinarily be: meh, you're fine, let's go, - it's now isolate. It's stressful because you go and do something and then maybe you have to cancel the thing you really want to do. This has happened! And you're wondering if it's just allergies, or should you go get a covid swab, (I go get the covid swab for myself, figuring we have the same virus). So I feel like a mega hypochondriak - but we avoided a playdate this weekend because we are travelling on the train this week and you can't go if you are sick. And we've gotten sick from playdates in the past.
Then there's the fun of my anxiety sometimes manifesting as a sore throat- I was a bit stressed leading up to a family holiday (this is OK here) and worked myself into a lather that we would have to cancel and not go because I was sick- I was just anxious and googling that anxiety can have these symptoms made them pass.
Also the judging that I do of parents when someone's kid is snotty nosed! Or when you hear a cough. I hate it.
But I caught baby feet licking the bottom of my shoe (we are a shoes off house) and UGH. Kids are gonna find germs. It's mostly a good thing. Just super stressful, wondering if you will be well for the thing you really want to do.
(I know I'm late to the thread but needed to get to a proper keyboard to structure my thoughts properly.)
posted by freethefeet at 6:30 PM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
An enlightening 2007 book on this topic: The Dirt On Clean: An Unsanitized History by Katherine Ashenburg.
posted by fairmettle at 2:25 AM on April 27, 2021
posted by fairmettle at 2:25 AM on April 27, 2021
« Older Zyoom | “We leave a stain, we leave a trail, we leave our... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:55 PM on April 23, 2021 [86 favorites]