Time Tax
July 27, 2021 2:39 PM Subscribe
In America, losing a job means making a hundred phone calls to a state unemployment-insurance system. Getting hit by a car means becoming your own hospital-billing expert. Having a disability means launching into a Jarndyce v. Jarndyce–type legal battle. Needing help to feed a toddler means filling out a novel-length application for aid.
...at some point, I started thinking about these kinds of administrative burdens as the “time tax”—a levy of paperwork, aggravation, and mental effort imposed on citizens in exchange for benefits that putatively exist to help them.
I have Medicaid (Medi-Cal) right now because I'm not working, I'm not rich, but I am healthy. I have also been using computers for 40 years and I've been an desktop support guy, web systems engineer, and web design aficionado for 25 years.
I could not figure out how to choose a doctor on their website. The pages that told you what doctors are taking new patients and the page that tells you where that doctor is located were housed under separate websites that each required their own LOGIN (and would still point you to doctors that aren't taking new patients). The instructions/directions were inscrutable where they even approached comprehensibility. I had to—and then resolved to only ever—call them on the phone and have them either walk me through stuff, or (more commonly) have them do it for me. Apologies for my substandard French, but HOW THE FUCK DO LOW-TECH AND LOW-ENGLISH SKILLED PEOPLE DO THIS? It's practically an 8th Amendment violation.
The Covered California site was scarcely better, they just couldn't help me because I don't have to pay taxes these days, so Medi-Cal was my only option.
posted by rhizome at 2:51 PM on July 27, 2021 [40 favorites]
I could not figure out how to choose a doctor on their website. The pages that told you what doctors are taking new patients and the page that tells you where that doctor is located were housed under separate websites that each required their own LOGIN (and would still point you to doctors that aren't taking new patients). The instructions/directions were inscrutable where they even approached comprehensibility. I had to—and then resolved to only ever—call them on the phone and have them either walk me through stuff, or (more commonly) have them do it for me. Apologies for my substandard French, but HOW THE FUCK DO LOW-TECH AND LOW-ENGLISH SKILLED PEOPLE DO THIS? It's practically an 8th Amendment violation.
The Covered California site was scarcely better, they just couldn't help me because I don't have to pay taxes these days, so Medi-Cal was my only option.
posted by rhizome at 2:51 PM on July 27, 2021 [40 favorites]
" HOW THE FUCK DO LOW-TECH AND LOW-ENGLISH SKILLED PEOPLE DO THIS?" They don't. They go without. Or they're fortunate enough to find sites like MeFi or other, where they can ask others what sort of advocate they need for their particular systems (happened this week, actually) ..it isn't good.
The amount of times I've played legal assistant/educated unemployment employee/medical plan agent-roulette is absurd. Instead of navigating wonky web based systems (often with f*cking hideous UX/UI), it is usually always fastest to just call/call/call until you can find the agent or employee with-it enough to guide.
One of the best approaches remains as continuously calling numbers, until you find a person able to match your viewpoint, with the education/experience level you need, or simply hire an agent or advocate.
Certainly it's more difficult if incomes are lower, but the affluent aren't excluded. It's a country of middle manning for little reward.
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:55 PM on July 27, 2021 [20 favorites]
The amount of times I've played legal assistant/educated unemployment employee/medical plan agent-roulette is absurd. Instead of navigating wonky web based systems (often with f*cking hideous UX/UI), it is usually always fastest to just call/call/call until you can find the agent or employee with-it enough to guide.
One of the best approaches remains as continuously calling numbers, until you find a person able to match your viewpoint, with the education/experience level you need, or simply hire an agent or advocate.
Certainly it's more difficult if incomes are lower, but the affluent aren't excluded. It's a country of middle manning for little reward.
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:55 PM on July 27, 2021 [20 favorites]
"While all other Sciences have advanced, that of Government is at a stand; little better understood; little better practiced now than three or four thousand years ago."
-John Adams.
posted by clavdivs at 2:58 PM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
-John Adams.
posted by clavdivs at 2:58 PM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
If I hadn't found a "parents helping parents" group to navigate California's entirely broken special needs educational system, I have no idea where my daughter would be developmentally now.
At one point I had to use, "I am immediately calling my congressperson and giving them your name, if you don't do you job" to force through something that is guaranteed by law for every child. Oh and guess what, they fell all over themselves to help at that point. I get that their team was almost certainly understaffed, but this person was intentionally obstructionist and insulted my wife.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:02 PM on July 27, 2021 [24 favorites]
At one point I had to use, "I am immediately calling my congressperson and giving them your name, if you don't do you job" to force through something that is guaranteed by law for every child. Oh and guess what, they fell all over themselves to help at that point. I get that their team was almost certainly understaffed, but this person was intentionally obstructionist and insulted my wife.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:02 PM on July 27, 2021 [24 favorites]
Is it like this in other countries? Norway, England, France? Or is this a uniquely American phenomenon?
The conspiracy lobe of my brain suggests that this is on purpose, an inside effort to undermine our democracy and faith in government for the benefit of capital.
posted by kzin602 at 3:04 PM on July 27, 2021 [10 favorites]
The conspiracy lobe of my brain suggests that this is on purpose, an inside effort to undermine our democracy and faith in government for the benefit of capital.
posted by kzin602 at 3:04 PM on July 27, 2021 [10 favorites]
Kzin, this is a unique US phenomenon, for the most part. Each has their flaws, but I don't think Denmark would be caught dead doing this horseshit. Too humane.
Conspiracy maybe, also certainly stems from a space arranged to push specialization to a degree where it isn't always applicable. Too many people forced to specialize, without spreading skills, creates problems like those articulated above.
posted by firstdaffodils at 3:06 PM on July 27, 2021
Conspiracy maybe, also certainly stems from a space arranged to push specialization to a degree where it isn't always applicable. Too many people forced to specialize, without spreading skills, creates problems like those articulated above.
posted by firstdaffodils at 3:06 PM on July 27, 2021
Apparently Elizabeth Cohen wrote the book on this topic - for anyone who wants a deeper dive.
posted by latkes at 3:07 PM on July 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by latkes at 3:07 PM on July 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
Consumer facing IT systems are terrible when no one is incentivized to make them better. No one gets a bonus or a dividend if more people do what they want faster. It’s easier to find a widget seller and order a widget on Amazon because people are rewarded for making it so.
Benefits eligibility systems are inherently hard to use because they are trying to comply with hugely complex eligibility rules and prevent the exchequer from being eaten alive by fraud. They will bedevil us until we adopt a true UBI (the libertarian version that supersedes all means-tested benefits and government intervention in housing, health and employment markets).
posted by MattD at 3:08 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
Benefits eligibility systems are inherently hard to use because they are trying to comply with hugely complex eligibility rules and prevent the exchequer from being eaten alive by fraud. They will bedevil us until we adopt a true UBI (the libertarian version that supersedes all means-tested benefits and government intervention in housing, health and employment markets).
posted by MattD at 3:08 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
Other countries don't actively want large swathes of the population to die as soon as possible.
posted by bleep at 3:08 PM on July 27, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by bleep at 3:08 PM on July 27, 2021 [20 favorites]
Is it like this in other countries? Norway, England, France? Or is this a uniquely American phenomenon?
The conspiracy lobe of my brain suggests that this is on purpose, an inside effort to undermine our democracy and faith in government for the benefit of capital.
In the UK unless your taxes are complicated they just happen and you don't have to fill in any forms.
There's a site with web systems for a whole bunch of common administrative operations.
There are certainly parts of the system which are bureaucratic nightmares, mostly those which serve people who the Conservatives don't like - the Home Office for immigration and nationality issues, most things relating to benefits. But a lot of stuff also just works.
posted by Urtylug at 3:12 PM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
The conspiracy lobe of my brain suggests that this is on purpose, an inside effort to undermine our democracy and faith in government for the benefit of capital.
In the UK unless your taxes are complicated they just happen and you don't have to fill in any forms.
There's a site with web systems for a whole bunch of common administrative operations.
There are certainly parts of the system which are bureaucratic nightmares, mostly those which serve people who the Conservatives don't like - the Home Office for immigration and nationality issues, most things relating to benefits. But a lot of stuff also just works.
posted by Urtylug at 3:12 PM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
A while ago my employer introduced a co-insurance to cover our deductible. We had a company meeting with the insurance agent who explained how it would work.
The agent literally told us to:
1. Ignore medical bills until the envelope says "second notice" or higher on them because it takes some time for the co-insurance to get around to actually paying things and the co-insurance won't refund your money or even ask providers to refund you money if you pay them directly.
2. Keep checking the co-insurance web site every day to see if a bill has been received/processed yet. Also keep asking your provider if they've received anything from the co-insurance because sometimes the website is late being updated. And sometimes the co-insurance initially rejects payments and you have to resubmit them.
3. Only pay your provider directly if you're about to be sent to collections. And it's not the co-insurance's fault if you get sent to collections because they didn't pay in a timely fashion, you should have been checking the web site and calling a customer service rep if you didn't see a bill get posted.
So now in addition to managing my own bills that come in the mail, I have to keep tabs on someone else who's supposedly paying some of my bills for me to make sure they're actually doing it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 3:13 PM on July 27, 2021 [77 favorites]
The agent literally told us to:
1. Ignore medical bills until the envelope says "second notice" or higher on them because it takes some time for the co-insurance to get around to actually paying things and the co-insurance won't refund your money or even ask providers to refund you money if you pay them directly.
2. Keep checking the co-insurance web site every day to see if a bill has been received/processed yet. Also keep asking your provider if they've received anything from the co-insurance because sometimes the website is late being updated. And sometimes the co-insurance initially rejects payments and you have to resubmit them.
3. Only pay your provider directly if you're about to be sent to collections. And it's not the co-insurance's fault if you get sent to collections because they didn't pay in a timely fashion, you should have been checking the web site and calling a customer service rep if you didn't see a bill get posted.
So now in addition to managing my own bills that come in the mail, I have to keep tabs on someone else who's supposedly paying some of my bills for me to make sure they're actually doing it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 3:13 PM on July 27, 2021 [77 favorites]
I've always thought that these hoops to jump through were created deliberately in order to extract wealth from or deny wealth to people with poor executive functioning skills. Many give up trying before they can fully access benefits.
posted by Blue Genie at 3:17 PM on July 27, 2021 [49 favorites]
posted by Blue Genie at 3:17 PM on July 27, 2021 [49 favorites]
Try getting help from FEMA after a disaster. It is the classic "I am from the Government, and I am here to help you" situation. It is a huge beast, hobbled by the concern from Congress that someone is going to get benefits that they are not entitled to.
posted by Midnight Skulker at 3:19 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Midnight Skulker at 3:19 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
"I am from the Government, and I am here to help you" situation
You do realize that was a catch phrase from the people who intentionally break government so they can point to that dysfunction as a reason to not pay taxes?
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:28 PM on July 27, 2021 [88 favorites]
You do realize that was a catch phrase from the people who intentionally break government so they can point to that dysfunction as a reason to not pay taxes?
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:28 PM on July 27, 2021 [88 favorites]
kzin: In the UK, accessing unemployment related and similar benefits seems to get increasingly more difficult but other stuff works ok. Tax issues are largely taken out of the hands of workers. We just get a payslip every month showing tax code, earnings and taxes paid and then at the end of the year we get a statement of total earnings and tax paid. I actually pushed the boat out this year by claiming a small amount against working at home (~10mins). Most people won't have bothered I think.
The health service has delays but primarily not paperwork related ones. Overseas, I've only had one interaction with a health service, that was Denmark and it was almost totally painless (though Brexit may since have fucked that up).
posted by biffa at 3:38 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
The health service has delays but primarily not paperwork related ones. Overseas, I've only had one interaction with a health service, that was Denmark and it was almost totally painless (though Brexit may since have fucked that up).
posted by biffa at 3:38 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Consumer facing IT systems are terrible when no one is incentivized to make them better. No one gets a bonus or a dividend if more people do what they want faster. It’s easier to find a widget seller and order a widget on Amazon because people are rewarded for making it so.
I have wanted to be that un-incentivized person on multiple occasions. However, every single time I've gone to the state or whatever bureaucracy's help wanted sites, there is no "make the website usable by humans" job available, only generic software/web positions where I'm 99% sure you don't get to choose where you land.
I've always thought that these hoops to jump through were created deliberately in order to extract wealth from or deny wealth to people with poor executive functioning skills.
I would say that they are the result of neither of those things succeeding! I don't know if it's age or nerdly offense, but my stance is that bureaucracies are good. Bureaucracies are the way they are because they cover all the corner cases. Bureaucracy makes it possible for someone to get services in Bhutanese. Bureaucracy knows that sometimes your license plate sticker gets stolen. Bureaucracy takes care of everybody, that's why it takes longer and you get treated like a commodity.
I have a prole-y theory that rich people don't like having to interact with bureaucracies in the same way as the rabble, so they sabotage it until they get special treatment, and every equal-access service that receives public funding will (or will-have) endure a smiliar attack. "What do you mean, go stand in that line over there to get my license plate sticker? You mean like a schlimazel?"
Unfortunately, the spenders and the taxers and the tax-cutters and the go-die-already movements get their hands and donations into the mix and it breaks little pieces everywhere until it's shit for everybody. It's like planting kudzu along the trails at Yosemite, eventually parts become impassible without a machete or an alternate route.
posted by rhizome at 3:38 PM on July 27, 2021 [19 favorites]
I have wanted to be that un-incentivized person on multiple occasions. However, every single time I've gone to the state or whatever bureaucracy's help wanted sites, there is no "make the website usable by humans" job available, only generic software/web positions where I'm 99% sure you don't get to choose where you land.
I've always thought that these hoops to jump through were created deliberately in order to extract wealth from or deny wealth to people with poor executive functioning skills.
I would say that they are the result of neither of those things succeeding! I don't know if it's age or nerdly offense, but my stance is that bureaucracies are good. Bureaucracies are the way they are because they cover all the corner cases. Bureaucracy makes it possible for someone to get services in Bhutanese. Bureaucracy knows that sometimes your license plate sticker gets stolen. Bureaucracy takes care of everybody, that's why it takes longer and you get treated like a commodity.
I have a prole-y theory that rich people don't like having to interact with bureaucracies in the same way as the rabble, so they sabotage it until they get special treatment, and every equal-access service that receives public funding will (or will-have) endure a smiliar attack. "What do you mean, go stand in that line over there to get my license plate sticker? You mean like a schlimazel?"
Unfortunately, the spenders and the taxers and the tax-cutters and the go-die-already movements get their hands and donations into the mix and it breaks little pieces everywhere until it's shit for everybody. It's like planting kudzu along the trails at Yosemite, eventually parts become impassible without a machete or an alternate route.
posted by rhizome at 3:38 PM on July 27, 2021 [19 favorites]
I only ever call a large organisation if I can't do something on the website (often because it says I can't and I have to call).
Meanwhile, my wife and I had to change travel plans at the very front of the pandemic and after talking to someone from our insurance on the phone who said they'd cover our costs, we spent hours and hours working on our application on to have it rejected.
I have so many stories like this, like the multiple calls to clear up "Robodebt" (not to address it per se, but simply to get them to do what they said they'd do) because there was literally nowhere I could walk into to get it sorted out.
posted by krisjohn at 3:40 PM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
- I don't recall the last time I wasn't told that wait times were "unusually" long
- The on-hold loop always tells me to go to the website to do whatever I want
Meanwhile, my wife and I had to change travel plans at the very front of the pandemic and after talking to someone from our insurance on the phone who said they'd cover our costs, we spent hours and hours working on our application on to have it rejected.
I have so many stories like this, like the multiple calls to clear up "Robodebt" (not to address it per se, but simply to get them to do what they said they'd do) because there was literally nowhere I could walk into to get it sorted out.
posted by krisjohn at 3:40 PM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
I work a seasonal, full time, hourly job. This means I don't work approximately 2.5 months a year and can file for unemployment benefits. Also means I get no insurance benefits, etc.
I am computer and telephone savvy and speak English. I spent so many hours online and on the phone trying to sort this out. Somehow, they have it on record that I worked for a couple years in a meat-processing facility several hours away from where I live. I wanted to get that mistake deleted from my records and get the legal benefits I am allowed. I also wanted to be sure that I wasn't breaking any laws by having this job in my record... which was the reason I was doing some of this on the phone.
Not only did I spend time on the phone. The system is so backed up that they won't even put you on hold to speak with the right person. Instead, they call you back. In "a week." I ended up having to do this twice... first time I got the callback in eight days. Second time it was ten days later. I had to dutifully answer every call on my phone—even ones that looked like spam calls. I carried my phone everywhere with the ringer set on full volume, even to the bathroom and on the nearby sink when taking a shower. I lucked out and did not miss the callbacks. Long story short, I got the money, including retroactive pay from the weeks I spent pursuing this. Thankfully, I do not live paycheck-to-paycheck. I'm not wealthy, but I have a cushion. For many folks this would have been a complete disaster.
Also—I was told twice by the "specialists" I spoke to that it was A-OK that the meatpacking job is in my records even though I told them I never worked there. On top of that? They both told me that there is literally no way to have that meat packing job expunged from my employment history! So I will forever have that on my government employment file.
I also firmly believe the system is intentionally made this way to encourage people with less time than me, with fewer tech skills than me, with lesser English skills than me, etc., to give up. Or to simply fail, over and over.
posted by SoberHighland at 3:42 PM on July 27, 2021 [24 favorites]
I am computer and telephone savvy and speak English. I spent so many hours online and on the phone trying to sort this out. Somehow, they have it on record that I worked for a couple years in a meat-processing facility several hours away from where I live. I wanted to get that mistake deleted from my records and get the legal benefits I am allowed. I also wanted to be sure that I wasn't breaking any laws by having this job in my record... which was the reason I was doing some of this on the phone.
Not only did I spend time on the phone. The system is so backed up that they won't even put you on hold to speak with the right person. Instead, they call you back. In "a week." I ended up having to do this twice... first time I got the callback in eight days. Second time it was ten days later. I had to dutifully answer every call on my phone—even ones that looked like spam calls. I carried my phone everywhere with the ringer set on full volume, even to the bathroom and on the nearby sink when taking a shower. I lucked out and did not miss the callbacks. Long story short, I got the money, including retroactive pay from the weeks I spent pursuing this. Thankfully, I do not live paycheck-to-paycheck. I'm not wealthy, but I have a cushion. For many folks this would have been a complete disaster.
Also—I was told twice by the "specialists" I spoke to that it was A-OK that the meatpacking job is in my records even though I told them I never worked there. On top of that? They both told me that there is literally no way to have that meat packing job expunged from my employment history! So I will forever have that on my government employment file.
I also firmly believe the system is intentionally made this way to encourage people with less time than me, with fewer tech skills than me, with lesser English skills than me, etc., to give up. Or to simply fail, over and over.
posted by SoberHighland at 3:42 PM on July 27, 2021 [24 favorites]
Is it like this in other countries? Norway, England, France? Or is this a uniquely American phenomenon?
The conspiracy lobe of my brain suggests that this is on purpose, an inside effort to undermine our democracy and faith in government for the benefit of capital.
Those other countries are capitalist too. I wouldn't blame capitalism as much as I'd blame Calvinism. U.S. culture is still heavily influenced by the idea that people are poor because they deserve it, and so programs to help them often are designed and administered shoddily.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:43 PM on July 27, 2021 [44 favorites]
The conspiracy lobe of my brain suggests that this is on purpose, an inside effort to undermine our democracy and faith in government for the benefit of capital.
Those other countries are capitalist too. I wouldn't blame capitalism as much as I'd blame Calvinism. U.S. culture is still heavily influenced by the idea that people are poor because they deserve it, and so programs to help them often are designed and administered shoddily.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:43 PM on July 27, 2021 [44 favorites]
In America people got more angry at the handful of jobless people who were getting paid more on covid unemployment than the billionaires and millionaires who made them unemployed to protect their huge bonuses
posted by interogative mood at 3:51 PM on July 27, 2021 [43 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 3:51 PM on July 27, 2021 [43 favorites]
Is it like this in other countries? Norway, England, France?
Government-subsidised medical care is mostly transparent in Australia; private health insurance in my experience mostly is too. The same goes for taxes unless you're wealthy or otherwise in an unusual situation. All these are things utilised by the great Australian middle class. However. Our welfare system is notoriously overloaded, with all the usual reports of being on perpetual hold. And the government recently brought in the NDIS (National Disability Insurance Scheme) for persons whose medical/therapy bills are very high.
The NDIS is reportedly a real nightmare to navigate and, the government being displeased by how much it costs, is to be further obstructed by the interposition of a "public/private partnership" to act as an additional gatekeeper.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:55 PM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
Government-subsidised medical care is mostly transparent in Australia; private health insurance in my experience mostly is too. The same goes for taxes unless you're wealthy or otherwise in an unusual situation. All these are things utilised by the great Australian middle class. However. Our welfare system is notoriously overloaded, with all the usual reports of being on perpetual hold. And the government recently brought in the NDIS (National Disability Insurance Scheme) for persons whose medical/therapy bills are very high.
The NDIS is reportedly a real nightmare to navigate and, the government being displeased by how much it costs, is to be further obstructed by the interposition of a "public/private partnership" to act as an additional gatekeeper.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:55 PM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
I've always thought that these hoops to jump through were created deliberately in order to extract wealth from or deny wealth to people with poor executive functioning skills
Florida's unemployment system in general and the website in particular was specifically designed to make it difficult to successfully claim the benefits you paid for. That's not supposition, that's what the memos say in writing. Yes, it was put in writing.
Adding insult to injury, the benefit amount is incredibly stingy, having the lowest weekly benefit in the country and the lowest number of weeks of benefits.
posted by wierdo at 4:28 PM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
Florida's unemployment system in general and the website in particular was specifically designed to make it difficult to successfully claim the benefits you paid for. That's not supposition, that's what the memos say in writing. Yes, it was put in writing.
Adding insult to injury, the benefit amount is incredibly stingy, having the lowest weekly benefit in the country and the lowest number of weeks of benefits.
posted by wierdo at 4:28 PM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
Our welfare system is notoriously overloaded, with all the usual reports of being on perpetual hold.
You mispelled 'undermined'.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:43 PM on July 27, 2021 [13 favorites]
You mispelled 'undermined'.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:43 PM on July 27, 2021 [13 favorites]
A client of mine in Australia, "I went to apply for family support as a single mother so that I could spend more time with my newborn daughter. I am a qualified architect with a Masters in Architecture and I use computer aided design systems with English as my only language, so I can follow instructions and deal with forms. But you know what, I would rather work another two days a week than have to engage regularly with that application process."
So, yeah, the system "works" if your definition of "working" is that people would prefer to go to their jobs rather than spend time with their children.
Which is the real issue - a mother spending time with her children is less valued than her hours at the job.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:49 PM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
So, yeah, the system "works" if your definition of "working" is that people would prefer to go to their jobs rather than spend time with their children.
Which is the real issue - a mother spending time with her children is less valued than her hours at the job.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:49 PM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
They both told me that there is literally no way to have that meat packing job expunged from my employment history! So I will forever have that on my government employment file.
This particular weirdness might be because too many employers don't want to really be able to check SSNs, and really don't want to be catchable as having employed people on fake SSNs.
Although it's also true that a lot of systems are spec'd as though there won't be any mistakes using them, and it's hard to figure out how to fix mistakes reliably, and if there's no way to record mistakes then no-one at the bureau is on record as having allowed one either! There was a newspaper article recently about someone who was declared dead and took *years* of expensive legal aid to get un-declared, and will never be made economically whole. The UK, I think.
posted by clew at 4:54 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
This particular weirdness might be because too many employers don't want to really be able to check SSNs, and really don't want to be catchable as having employed people on fake SSNs.
Although it's also true that a lot of systems are spec'd as though there won't be any mistakes using them, and it's hard to figure out how to fix mistakes reliably, and if there's no way to record mistakes then no-one at the bureau is on record as having allowed one either! There was a newspaper article recently about someone who was declared dead and took *years* of expensive legal aid to get un-declared, and will never be made economically whole. The UK, I think.
posted by clew at 4:54 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Which is the real issue - a mother spending time with her children is less valued than her hours at the job.
Yes, Australia has a toxic neo-con government that hates the poor with undisguised fury. So they have spent the last 8 years making the welfare system harder to access and harder to be on. The repeated talking point is 'the best form of welfare is a job'. I'm not even kidding.
Let's not even get into the 1.4 billion dollar debt recovery scam they inflicted on welfare and former welfare recipients.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:54 PM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
Yes, Australia has a toxic neo-con government that hates the poor with undisguised fury. So they have spent the last 8 years making the welfare system harder to access and harder to be on. The repeated talking point is 'the best form of welfare is a job'. I'm not even kidding.
Let's not even get into the 1.4 billion dollar debt recovery scam they inflicted on welfare and former welfare recipients.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:54 PM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
I've always thought that this was just a Capitalist bait and switch. They can say that they are providing a benefit, but they make it difficult to obtain.
Alternatively, Neoliberal politicians can say they are providing a social benefit, but make it nearly impossible to get.
They get all the good publicity, without having to spend any money.
posted by Bee'sWing at 4:58 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Alternatively, Neoliberal politicians can say they are providing a social benefit, but make it nearly impossible to get.
They get all the good publicity, without having to spend any money.
posted by Bee'sWing at 4:58 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's not uniquely American, even if American society (or the lack thereof) takes it to extreme.
The Social Production of Indifference: Exploring the Symbolic Roots of Western Bureaucracy
(M. Herzfeld, 1992)
Michael Herzfeld argues that 'modern' bureaucratically regulated societies are no more 'rational' or less 'symbolic' than the societies traditionally studied by anthropologists. Drawing primarily on the example of modern Greece and utilizing other European materials, he suggests that we cannot understand national bureaucracies divorced from local-level ideas about chance, personal character, social relationships and responsibility. He points out that both formal regulations and day-to-day bureaucratic practices rely heavily on the symbols and language of the moral boundaries between insiders and outsiders; a ready means of expressing prejudice and of justifying neglect. It therefore happens that societies with proud traditions of generous hospitality may paradoxically produce at the official level some of the most calculated indifference one can find anywhere.
Herzfeld did his fieldwork in Greece.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:01 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
The Social Production of Indifference: Exploring the Symbolic Roots of Western Bureaucracy
(M. Herzfeld, 1992)
Michael Herzfeld argues that 'modern' bureaucratically regulated societies are no more 'rational' or less 'symbolic' than the societies traditionally studied by anthropologists. Drawing primarily on the example of modern Greece and utilizing other European materials, he suggests that we cannot understand national bureaucracies divorced from local-level ideas about chance, personal character, social relationships and responsibility. He points out that both formal regulations and day-to-day bureaucratic practices rely heavily on the symbols and language of the moral boundaries between insiders and outsiders; a ready means of expressing prejudice and of justifying neglect. It therefore happens that societies with proud traditions of generous hospitality may paradoxically produce at the official level some of the most calculated indifference one can find anywhere.
Herzfeld did his fieldwork in Greece.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:01 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
I'm not sure that the US is exactly unique in having a really frustrating amount of bureaucracy, or even in having that bureaucracy designed to frustrate people from getting what they want.
What is a bit different than other places where I've been, is that in the US you can't just bribe your way through the red tape.
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:30 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
What is a bit different than other places where I've been, is that in the US you can't just bribe your way through the red tape.
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:30 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
For the last few years we've had a high deductible health plan, and my wife's Type 1 diabetes and insulin pump means we hit her out-of-pocket max in February or March. Then for the rest of the year we don't see a bill, don't get any calls, nothing. She just goes to the doctor and pharmacy as needed, and BC/BS just pays everything without a squawk. It's magical.
posted by COD at 5:40 PM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by COD at 5:40 PM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
I would tell the six month long story about leaving homelessness and going back to work but a) it was 1998; b) it would never pass the filter or flagging and/or would go to Metatalk and probably get me banned. Sigh.
Anyways, the final sort of TL;DR would be non-government, 3rd party, non-profit (hah), grifters... who knew the system and took their little slice to help you out. Not all that bad, even pretty decent. They were also working on grant money and contributions and looking for "gold stars" on their report card for the next year's grant application. To them it's a gamble. In a couple of years will you have been back working and taxed enough to pay for your help? How much have you paid in taxes before you needed the help? Do you have government (federal/state) aid that is rightfully your to be gotten?
In a roundabout way, it was actually basically hiring advocates to do the paperwork, but they had their own incentives as well.
posted by zengargoyle at 5:54 PM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Anyways, the final sort of TL;DR would be non-government, 3rd party, non-profit (hah), grifters... who knew the system and took their little slice to help you out. Not all that bad, even pretty decent. They were also working on grant money and contributions and looking for "gold stars" on their report card for the next year's grant application. To them it's a gamble. In a couple of years will you have been back working and taxed enough to pay for your help? How much have you paid in taxes before you needed the help? Do you have government (federal/state) aid that is rightfully your to be gotten?
In a roundabout way, it was actually basically hiring advocates to do the paperwork, but they had their own incentives as well.
posted by zengargoyle at 5:54 PM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Is it like this in other countries? Norway, England, France? Or is this a uniquely American phenomenon?
Do other countries have a kkk, and the history of a racialized underclass who invented the national institutions for public goods through armed struggle?
posted by eustatic at 6:34 PM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
Do other countries have a kkk, and the history of a racialized underclass who invented the national institutions for public goods through armed struggle?
posted by eustatic at 6:34 PM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
Dealing with Australia’s social support department “Centrelink” is certainly not a walk in the park - almost like it was deliberately designed to discourage people from accessing the support that they’re entitled to. Which of course it was
posted by moorooka at 6:47 PM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by moorooka at 6:47 PM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
HOW THE FUCK DO LOW-TECH AND LOW-ENGLISH SKILLED PEOPLE DO THIS?
Assuming your city still has locations that are funded, functioning and open to some extent, some of them will go to the Public Library, use the computers for the public and ask a librarian to help them.
And, somebody beat me to it.....
posted by gimonca at 6:49 PM on July 27, 2021
Assuming your city still has locations that are funded, functioning and open to some extent, some of them will go to the Public Library, use the computers for the public and ask a librarian to help them.
And, somebody beat me to it.....
posted by gimonca at 6:49 PM on July 27, 2021
Dealing with Australia’s social support department “Centrelink” is certainly not a walk in the park - almost like it was deliberately designed to discourage people from accessing the support that they’re entitled to. Which of course it was
Obligatory message from Centrelink: "I'm on Smoko, so leave me alone."
posted by deadaluspark at 6:50 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
Obligatory message from Centrelink: "I'm on Smoko, so leave me alone."
posted by deadaluspark at 6:50 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
Many of these confused and frustrated people in need of help wind up at the Library. I've helped people get on housing voucher lists, file their taxes, get ACA insurance, navigate the court system, apply for jobs, etc etc etc. I swear it's designed to confuse people to the point that they'll just give up and not receive their benefits, or access what they need. I have NO IDEA what people who can't/won't go to the library and ask for help do.
By far the most popular frustrating online system to navigate over the last 18 months was...you guessed it... unemployment. Luckily (?) I spent time on that site myself while the libraries were closed, so I've got first-hand experience. I have to admit, it does help to know the ins and outs of the system while I'm helping others figure it out.
posted by Gray Duck at 6:51 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
By far the most popular frustrating online system to navigate over the last 18 months was...you guessed it... unemployment. Luckily (?) I spent time on that site myself while the libraries were closed, so I've got first-hand experience. I have to admit, it does help to know the ins and outs of the system while I'm helping others figure it out.
posted by Gray Duck at 6:51 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Obligatory message from Centrelink: "I'm on Smoko, so leave me alone."
posted by deadaluspark at 8:50 PM on July 27 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
Favored for the Chats reference.
posted by djseafood at 7:14 PM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by deadaluspark at 8:50 PM on July 27 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
Favored for the Chats reference.
posted by djseafood at 7:14 PM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
David Graeber’s “Utopia of Rules” is another good deep dive on the history and culture of bureaucracy
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:15 PM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:15 PM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Is it like this in other countries? Norway, England, France?
What, bureaucracy? Maybe slightly different flavors, but sure. Dickens's the Court of Chancery was mentioned, to that add Douglas Adams (English), who didn't invent the Vogons out of nothing. Latin country bureaucracies are a long standing joke (ask my French in-laws). Nordic countries have more generous benefits, depending on whom you ask, this does or does not create more paperwork. It's more the nature of the beast than which party happens to be in power, however much spleen one would like to vent.
Google cost of bureaucracy by country and you can find numbers. Make of them what you will. Oh, and check out C. Northcote Parkinson, he of the Law, he was writing about bureaucratic bloat decades ago. Lot of people need jobs, paper shuffling provides them.
posted by BWA at 7:16 PM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
What, bureaucracy? Maybe slightly different flavors, but sure. Dickens's the Court of Chancery was mentioned, to that add Douglas Adams (English), who didn't invent the Vogons out of nothing. Latin country bureaucracies are a long standing joke (ask my French in-laws). Nordic countries have more generous benefits, depending on whom you ask, this does or does not create more paperwork. It's more the nature of the beast than which party happens to be in power, however much spleen one would like to vent.
Google cost of bureaucracy by country and you can find numbers. Make of them what you will. Oh, and check out C. Northcote Parkinson, he of the Law, he was writing about bureaucratic bloat decades ago. Lot of people need jobs, paper shuffling provides them.
posted by BWA at 7:16 PM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
Yeah, this is exactly why I fell through the cracks and ended up homeless again in the mid 2010s.
Even though I am smart and functional, I still totally fell through the cracks and failed out of the system a number of times for disability assistance, health insurance and rental assistance.
For someone that was dealing with extreme chronic depression, PTSD and anxiety it was basically a full time job trying to stay on top of the paperwork, the phone calls, the mandatory in-person and often pointless appointments as much as several times a week and the general stress and overhead of trying to engage the system and get material, functional help.
Even when I did get to see an actual appointed therapist they were basically totally checked out and of no substantial help even though I was required to see them on a weekly basis.
I was so messed up I could barely leave the apartment and walk down the street to a corner store, much less going to wait in a crowded, stressful and sometimes even dramatically dangerous lobby 2-3 times a week, often for hours on end before being seen for up to an hour for my appointments. Or stay on top of responding to all of the paperwork or phone calls.
And stuff would just happen, like I'd miss a piece of mail and lose my benefits or have to restart over. Or I'd get some piece of mail that required nearly impossibly short turn around and response times. Or you'd spend all day on a phone just trying to get through to someone.
During this struggle I had a number of friends and people close to me both on and off trying to help me, and for that I'm deeply thankful. But I have complicated feelings about it, too I'm still kind of salty and emotionally hurt by how it felt like some people were mad at me, placing the blame on me for not being able to effectively self advocate or otherwise being disappointed with me.
Which, yeah, I get it. I was a hot mess. I can only ask for help or have emotional breakdowns so many times. People don't have time for this shit.
But I didn't have time for this shit, either. I was treading water and in a bad place and trying to cope with nearly constant intrusive thoughts and just generally wishing I didn't even exist. There were a solid few years there where I was just slogging through a grey, pain-flavored fog and disassociating so much and regularly and I was a walking ghost.
There were a few very rare moments when someone stepped up to bat with me to help advocate for me and deal with the forms and actually were there in one of those dingy stressful lobbies and even helping with the paperwork. Like, out of the hundreds of mandatory meetings and appointments I've had over the years I had a friend there with me maaaybe 3-5 times.
But every time I had someone there they realized how bad it was, like "Holy shit, this is stressful. Everyone here on the staff is super callous, checked out if not aggressively rude or openly cruel or sadistic. You have to do this how often? Oh my god." and then they never do it a second time. I actually can't think of anyone that's been in one of those social services lobbies more than once with me, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong about that.
Apart from my state health insurance I basically gave up on the social services system. I let my food stamps lapse years ago and replaced that with volunteering at the food bank. I go to my very nice primary care doc for health issues and referrals. I made it all the way through the pandemic without unemployment, PUA and very spotty and partial employment, all while being very thrifty with my stimulus checks and using them to pay rent and keep my phone on.
The thought of re-applying for food stamps and having to wade back into that end of the symptoms is non-figuratively making my heart race and I can feel my blood pressure and anxiety spiking as I remember and write about these things.
Even the kitchen work I was doing was less stressful and maybe even less actual hours than engaging the social services system effectively.
Which, yeah, that's what they want.
The hidden cost of that is that someone like me ends up putting healing and personal growth and pulling themselves out from way below the poverty line by the wayside and back burner to cope with work and gainful employment - and it's in no way optimal or functional.
Dear friends. This is why I fell through the cracks and failed out of the system despite everyone's best efforts.
posted by loquacious at 7:26 PM on July 27, 2021 [52 favorites]
Even though I am smart and functional, I still totally fell through the cracks and failed out of the system a number of times for disability assistance, health insurance and rental assistance.
For someone that was dealing with extreme chronic depression, PTSD and anxiety it was basically a full time job trying to stay on top of the paperwork, the phone calls, the mandatory in-person and often pointless appointments as much as several times a week and the general stress and overhead of trying to engage the system and get material, functional help.
Even when I did get to see an actual appointed therapist they were basically totally checked out and of no substantial help even though I was required to see them on a weekly basis.
I was so messed up I could barely leave the apartment and walk down the street to a corner store, much less going to wait in a crowded, stressful and sometimes even dramatically dangerous lobby 2-3 times a week, often for hours on end before being seen for up to an hour for my appointments. Or stay on top of responding to all of the paperwork or phone calls.
And stuff would just happen, like I'd miss a piece of mail and lose my benefits or have to restart over. Or I'd get some piece of mail that required nearly impossibly short turn around and response times. Or you'd spend all day on a phone just trying to get through to someone.
During this struggle I had a number of friends and people close to me both on and off trying to help me, and for that I'm deeply thankful. But I have complicated feelings about it, too I'm still kind of salty and emotionally hurt by how it felt like some people were mad at me, placing the blame on me for not being able to effectively self advocate or otherwise being disappointed with me.
Which, yeah, I get it. I was a hot mess. I can only ask for help or have emotional breakdowns so many times. People don't have time for this shit.
But I didn't have time for this shit, either. I was treading water and in a bad place and trying to cope with nearly constant intrusive thoughts and just generally wishing I didn't even exist. There were a solid few years there where I was just slogging through a grey, pain-flavored fog and disassociating so much and regularly and I was a walking ghost.
There were a few very rare moments when someone stepped up to bat with me to help advocate for me and deal with the forms and actually were there in one of those dingy stressful lobbies and even helping with the paperwork. Like, out of the hundreds of mandatory meetings and appointments I've had over the years I had a friend there with me maaaybe 3-5 times.
But every time I had someone there they realized how bad it was, like "Holy shit, this is stressful. Everyone here on the staff is super callous, checked out if not aggressively rude or openly cruel or sadistic. You have to do this how often? Oh my god." and then they never do it a second time. I actually can't think of anyone that's been in one of those social services lobbies more than once with me, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong about that.
Apart from my state health insurance I basically gave up on the social services system. I let my food stamps lapse years ago and replaced that with volunteering at the food bank. I go to my very nice primary care doc for health issues and referrals. I made it all the way through the pandemic without unemployment, PUA and very spotty and partial employment, all while being very thrifty with my stimulus checks and using them to pay rent and keep my phone on.
The thought of re-applying for food stamps and having to wade back into that end of the symptoms is non-figuratively making my heart race and I can feel my blood pressure and anxiety spiking as I remember and write about these things.
Even the kitchen work I was doing was less stressful and maybe even less actual hours than engaging the social services system effectively.
Which, yeah, that's what they want.
The hidden cost of that is that someone like me ends up putting healing and personal growth and pulling themselves out from way below the poverty line by the wayside and back burner to cope with work and gainful employment - and it's in no way optimal or functional.
Dear friends. This is why I fell through the cracks and failed out of the system despite everyone's best efforts.
posted by loquacious at 7:26 PM on July 27, 2021 [52 favorites]
This is why I'll always support UBI even if it winds up replacing other social service programs with an option that doesn't provide enough funds. The regulatory overhead and bizarre hostility of America to people who need help make social safety nets arbitrarily cruel.
posted by BrotherCaine at 7:29 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 7:29 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
I also firmly believe the system is intentionally made this way to encourage people with less time than me, with fewer tech skills than me, with lesser English skills than me, etc., to give up. Or to simply fail, over and over.
It's fascism. It achieves the same ends, at the expense of the same people, for the benefit of the same people. It's fascism. The technology changed, but the oppression did not.
posted by Beholder at 7:47 PM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
It's fascism. It achieves the same ends, at the expense of the same people, for the benefit of the same people. It's fascism. The technology changed, but the oppression did not.
posted by Beholder at 7:47 PM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
And try, just try to see an out-of-network therapist, even if you have out-of-network benefits.
🎉 Surprise! They’re all out-of-network! 🥳
posted by panama joe at 8:13 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
🎉 Surprise! They’re all out-of-network! 🥳
posted by panama joe at 8:13 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
"While all other Sciences have advanced, that of Government is at a stand; little better understood; little better practiced now than three or four thousand years ago."
-John Adams.
I mean, we have one party in the United States dedicated to breaking government so that it can't work except when attacking other countries or rewarding favored interests. We have another party that likes means tested benefits and programs that rely on "nudging" citizens to act in their interest through tax incentives and carefully designed markets - all of which puts a huge burden on the individual to navigate. Operating in the background are entrenched, often monopolistic interests that essentially act as middle men by inserting themselves as layers of bureaucracy and paperwork people need to navigate for a price (e.g. student loan companies, health insurance companies, "tax preparation services" services).
posted by eagles123 at 8:17 PM on July 27, 2021 [10 favorites]
-John Adams.
I mean, we have one party in the United States dedicated to breaking government so that it can't work except when attacking other countries or rewarding favored interests. We have another party that likes means tested benefits and programs that rely on "nudging" citizens to act in their interest through tax incentives and carefully designed markets - all of which puts a huge burden on the individual to navigate. Operating in the background are entrenched, often monopolistic interests that essentially act as middle men by inserting themselves as layers of bureaucracy and paperwork people need to navigate for a price (e.g. student loan companies, health insurance companies, "tax preparation services" services).
posted by eagles123 at 8:17 PM on July 27, 2021 [10 favorites]
Basically my job is bureaucracy engagement - I now specialise with taxation, but when I was practising as a lawyer, I was occasionally brave enough to tackle other bureaucracies both governmental and capitalist, not just in Australia but in other countries as well.
General rule - there is nothing like having a former empire to create a massive increase in complexity associated with any function - cf. Greece, France, Italy, etc.
Further expansion of the rule - if there is a strong or historical class system - governments will happily spend more in administering the benefit than in actually paying out the benefit, to avoid the risk of the "undeserving poor" getting any benefit - cf. England, India, etc.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 8:26 PM on July 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
General rule - there is nothing like having a former empire to create a massive increase in complexity associated with any function - cf. Greece, France, Italy, etc.
Further expansion of the rule - if there is a strong or historical class system - governments will happily spend more in administering the benefit than in actually paying out the benefit, to avoid the risk of the "undeserving poor" getting any benefit - cf. England, India, etc.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 8:26 PM on July 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
Is it like this in other countries? Norway, England, France? Or is this a uniquely American phenomenon?
As Joe and others have noted, it's a little from column A, a lot from column B. Column A is tax time: it's all online, it's pretty much 100% completed for you, it's a tick-and-flick exercise and you get your refund in a week or so. If it gets complicated you spend a little more time with it, or hire a tax accountant and get reimbursed for that next financial year.
Centrelink - our Social Security - is an absolute clusterfuck nightmare that has been comprehensively neutered and explicitly redesigned by the conservatives to make things utterly agonising, demoralising and time-wasting for citizens who need help; and comprehensively obligation-free and lucrative for the fat slimy leeches in the private sector.
My taxes are for my fellow citizens, to ensure they have what they need. If the private sector can't survive without my income being paid indirectly to them by government, they don't deserve to be in business. That's the definition of the free market. But, quelle fucking surprise, that's not how it turns out.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:34 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
As Joe and others have noted, it's a little from column A, a lot from column B. Column A is tax time: it's all online, it's pretty much 100% completed for you, it's a tick-and-flick exercise and you get your refund in a week or so. If it gets complicated you spend a little more time with it, or hire a tax accountant and get reimbursed for that next financial year.
Centrelink - our Social Security - is an absolute clusterfuck nightmare that has been comprehensively neutered and explicitly redesigned by the conservatives to make things utterly agonising, demoralising and time-wasting for citizens who need help; and comprehensively obligation-free and lucrative for the fat slimy leeches in the private sector.
My taxes are for my fellow citizens, to ensure they have what they need. If the private sector can't survive without my income being paid indirectly to them by government, they don't deserve to be in business. That's the definition of the free market. But, quelle fucking surprise, that's not how it turns out.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:34 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
At work, One time I spent 18 months helping a person who was homeless get basic documents such as both certificate social security and ID (in the state she was born in!!)A year and a half. At least 3 hours a week. Some of this had to deal with the person and their particular barriers, but it was an incredible incredible amount of time.
This stuff is really really really hard.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:35 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
This stuff is really really really hard.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:35 PM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
" HOW THE FUCK DO LOW-TECH AND LOW-ENGLISH SKILLED PEOPLE DO THIS?"
They have their kids do it. Do you know who's really good at this stuff? The 14 year old children of immigrants.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:56 PM on July 27, 2021 [21 favorites]
They have their kids do it. Do you know who's really good at this stuff? The 14 year old children of immigrants.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:56 PM on July 27, 2021 [21 favorites]
I just want to jump in with some dialectic:
It's possibly that bureaucracy is absolutely a necessary evil in organizing societies, and often comes at a cost of time sink for the people involved, and it's not always a right-wing plot to undermine the bureaucracy.
It's also totally possible that fascists weaponize this unfortunate aspect of bureaucracy, adding unnecessary layers to make it work less well and hurt the people who need it the most.
I personally believe both of these things are equally true. I have seen my country decimate our social safety net, but I have seen that the people involved in the safety net still generally want to do the best they can for the people they can serve.
"They have their kids do it. Do you know who's really good at this stuff? The 14 year old children of immigrants."
This so much. Before covid I met this woman in her early twenties from Venezuela, who had two college-level degrees, and had fled her country while it was falling apart for America. Then, she used her knowledge to bring her family along with her, her mother, her father, her younger brother. God damn the strength of that woman. I lost touch with her when covid hit, but I think about her resilience and intelligence a lot. I know she never stopped working when covid hit, there wasn't a lot of relief for non-citizens, which was and is heartbreaking.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:05 PM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
It's possibly that bureaucracy is absolutely a necessary evil in organizing societies, and often comes at a cost of time sink for the people involved, and it's not always a right-wing plot to undermine the bureaucracy.
It's also totally possible that fascists weaponize this unfortunate aspect of bureaucracy, adding unnecessary layers to make it work less well and hurt the people who need it the most.
I personally believe both of these things are equally true. I have seen my country decimate our social safety net, but I have seen that the people involved in the safety net still generally want to do the best they can for the people they can serve.
"They have their kids do it. Do you know who's really good at this stuff? The 14 year old children of immigrants."
This so much. Before covid I met this woman in her early twenties from Venezuela, who had two college-level degrees, and had fled her country while it was falling apart for America. Then, she used her knowledge to bring her family along with her, her mother, her father, her younger brother. God damn the strength of that woman. I lost touch with her when covid hit, but I think about her resilience and intelligence a lot. I know she never stopped working when covid hit, there wasn't a lot of relief for non-citizens, which was and is heartbreaking.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:05 PM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
Fascim and/or necessary evil... yes. With a heavy dose of trolling:
There's a US Department of State form to register a birth abroad. It's 9 pages with questions like "Precise Periods of Time in United States" for both parents, notarization is required, plus all the gotchas and ambiguous sentences that need one or more phone calls with someone at the consulate, and then it needs to be mailed in, the appointment set for a couple months later, the trip to the consulate, etc...
But the form proudly states: "Estimated burden: 20 minutes"
posted by haemanu at 9:12 PM on July 27, 2021 [12 favorites]
There's a US Department of State form to register a birth abroad. It's 9 pages with questions like "Precise Periods of Time in United States" for both parents, notarization is required, plus all the gotchas and ambiguous sentences that need one or more phone calls with someone at the consulate, and then it needs to be mailed in, the appointment set for a couple months later, the trip to the consulate, etc...
But the form proudly states: "Estimated burden: 20 minutes"
posted by haemanu at 9:12 PM on July 27, 2021 [12 favorites]
Hope this is not a derail but it's extremely very similar to the "time tax" imposed on people from minority cultures in terms of something as simple as their name...
For example, as an example of an Australian politician - Penny Wong Ying Yen as displayed on her passport and birth certificate - Wong is her last name, Ying Yen is her Chinese first name, and Penny is her English first name.
My application for residency was endlessly stalled because different government agencies in the same country "captured" my name differently. They all had the same requirement: the full name on the birth certificate and passport needed to be entered into their system. But the agency issuing my drivers license would capture it as Penny Ying Wong (first name / middle name / last name) claiming that a person can only have 1 middle name, while the agency issuing healthcare cards would capture it as Penny Ying Yen Wong because somehow, they didn't get the memo and a person can in fact have two middle names, and in fact, they MUST enter every name on the birth cert / passport in there otherwise it's a crime of omission.
Then this trips the "fraud" detection flag when a person wants to do anything, because they don't have matching ID when trying apply for anything that requires a certain number of points of ID, and it's almost impossible to solve because neither agency cares what the other agency thinks, and neither wants to issue an admission that they were wrong to begin with...
So imagine the usual time tax bureaucracy that gets applied to anyone who wants to apply for some kind of benefit, then multiply it by 5x for a minority...
Bonus round: so many people from Indonesia (who only have first names) get forced into doubling up their names because every system mandates a last name, so I know quite a few people who are now Catherine Catherine, or Peter Peter.
posted by xdvesper at 9:47 PM on July 27, 2021 [19 favorites]
For example, as an example of an Australian politician - Penny Wong Ying Yen as displayed on her passport and birth certificate - Wong is her last name, Ying Yen is her Chinese first name, and Penny is her English first name.
My application for residency was endlessly stalled because different government agencies in the same country "captured" my name differently. They all had the same requirement: the full name on the birth certificate and passport needed to be entered into their system. But the agency issuing my drivers license would capture it as Penny Ying Wong (first name / middle name / last name) claiming that a person can only have 1 middle name, while the agency issuing healthcare cards would capture it as Penny Ying Yen Wong because somehow, they didn't get the memo and a person can in fact have two middle names, and in fact, they MUST enter every name on the birth cert / passport in there otherwise it's a crime of omission.
Then this trips the "fraud" detection flag when a person wants to do anything, because they don't have matching ID when trying apply for anything that requires a certain number of points of ID, and it's almost impossible to solve because neither agency cares what the other agency thinks, and neither wants to issue an admission that they were wrong to begin with...
So imagine the usual time tax bureaucracy that gets applied to anyone who wants to apply for some kind of benefit, then multiply it by 5x for a minority...
Bonus round: so many people from Indonesia (who only have first names) get forced into doubling up their names because every system mandates a last name, so I know quite a few people who are now Catherine Catherine, or Peter Peter.
posted by xdvesper at 9:47 PM on July 27, 2021 [19 favorites]
Because I've done case management, I have so many things to say about this and a great example I have is social security disability.
There is a provision in the SSI/SSDI manual for something called persumptive disability. If you have a list of conditions that's far smaller than it should be imho, you can present that proof with some other relevant information like your name and such and POOF SSI/SSDI can start as early as THE NEXT MONTH. I did this with someone. I helped him in getting the paperwork from his doctor, walked into the SSI office, did the hour appointment , was told right then and there the approval, the benefit amount and the date of the first check. It was DONE.
A regular SSI/SSDI application in Illinois takes about three years on average (last time I checked, prepandemic) with two denials and an administrative hearing. During that time one recieves NO MONITARY BENEFIT (technically parts of it you can recieve in back pay, but only after approval, and because of the asset limits it must be spent in 6 months (except for the 2,000 one is allowed in assets) or they take away your benefit until it is spent. Before the ACA there also was NO HEALTH INSURANCE. Medicare coverage still has a 24 MONTH waiting period before it starts AFTER APPROVAL. The disability insurance, medicare, that people have been paying for ones entire working career has a 24 month waiting period after the state/federal goverment decides someone is disabled. Not when the disability started, when it is recognized by the powers that be. So even IF the state says someone is disabled it's still can be litterally FIVE YEARS for health insurance. That is fucked up shit and people litterally die from this.
But there is this magical land of presumptive disability. And it happens in one appointment and some paperwork. It's not advertized. And I got it done and poof! We can do better and in some cases the shortcut is already written into the system . Now, one can apply for presumptive disability and then be denied anyway while the normal process goes through which is it's own beautcratic nightmare of being disabled and the goverment saying that anything it had given you was to much and so now it can claw that back in all kinds of ways not that getting money out of a disabled person living on SSI/SSDI has any money to give.
Last thing,
Fun fact dental is not covered for disabled adults (mostly) and one isn't allowed to save over 2000 ever so nobody was getting dental care. There was a time in the early 2000 before dentures were covered and extractions were the only covered service that there was tons of disabled adults with no teeth simply because they didn't want to live in pain and the only option was to take the teeth. Now people can get dentures at least. And there are some minimal coverage provisions here and there which have helped a ton.
So anyway, this is a tiny slice of the suffering. I could keep going on and on and on about this stuff.
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:04 PM on July 27, 2021 [23 favorites]
There is a provision in the SSI/SSDI manual for something called persumptive disability. If you have a list of conditions that's far smaller than it should be imho, you can present that proof with some other relevant information like your name and such and POOF SSI/SSDI can start as early as THE NEXT MONTH. I did this with someone. I helped him in getting the paperwork from his doctor, walked into the SSI office, did the hour appointment , was told right then and there the approval, the benefit amount and the date of the first check. It was DONE.
A regular SSI/SSDI application in Illinois takes about three years on average (last time I checked, prepandemic) with two denials and an administrative hearing. During that time one recieves NO MONITARY BENEFIT (technically parts of it you can recieve in back pay, but only after approval, and because of the asset limits it must be spent in 6 months (except for the 2,000 one is allowed in assets) or they take away your benefit until it is spent. Before the ACA there also was NO HEALTH INSURANCE. Medicare coverage still has a 24 MONTH waiting period before it starts AFTER APPROVAL. The disability insurance, medicare, that people have been paying for ones entire working career has a 24 month waiting period after the state/federal goverment decides someone is disabled. Not when the disability started, when it is recognized by the powers that be. So even IF the state says someone is disabled it's still can be litterally FIVE YEARS for health insurance. That is fucked up shit and people litterally die from this.
But there is this magical land of presumptive disability. And it happens in one appointment and some paperwork. It's not advertized. And I got it done and poof! We can do better and in some cases the shortcut is already written into the system . Now, one can apply for presumptive disability and then be denied anyway while the normal process goes through which is it's own beautcratic nightmare of being disabled and the goverment saying that anything it had given you was to much and so now it can claw that back in all kinds of ways not that getting money out of a disabled person living on SSI/SSDI has any money to give.
Last thing,
Fun fact dental is not covered for disabled adults (mostly) and one isn't allowed to save over 2000 ever so nobody was getting dental care. There was a time in the early 2000 before dentures were covered and extractions were the only covered service that there was tons of disabled adults with no teeth simply because they didn't want to live in pain and the only option was to take the teeth. Now people can get dentures at least. And there are some minimal coverage provisions here and there which have helped a ton.
So anyway, this is a tiny slice of the suffering. I could keep going on and on and on about this stuff.
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:04 PM on July 27, 2021 [23 favorites]
Economists at the World Bank have studied the bureaucratic costs of time taxes, and even produced an index: the Ease of doing business index. Time factors into most of their subindicies. As you would expect, the US does quite well there.
Probably it is time for the US to set up something similar for Medicare, UI and other state run federally funded benefits. IDK if the GAO or the Fed or does it but surely theres a dept in there somewhere. Worst case scenario, US News can redeem itself and start measuring something besides whether Harvard or Yale is the best school in 2021.
posted by pwnguin at 11:12 PM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
Probably it is time for the US to set up something similar for Medicare, UI and other state run federally funded benefits. IDK if the GAO or the Fed or does it but surely theres a dept in there somewhere. Worst case scenario, US News can redeem itself and start measuring something besides whether Harvard or Yale is the best school in 2021.
posted by pwnguin at 11:12 PM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
" HOW THE FUCK DO LOW-TECH AND LOW-ENGLISH SKILLED PEOPLE DO THIS?"
They also sometimes band into communities to help each other through this. The only way my mom was able to navigate the US Citizenship process was because her church held free classes on how to navigate it. Of course, the fact she needed to take time in the evenings, right after getting off work from her housekeeping job, in order to figure out a bureaucratic process is a problem in itself.
Is it like this in other countries? Norway, England, France? Or is this a uniquely American phenomenon?
I grew up in the US but now live in the Netherlands. Whenever I have to deal with anything US-related it is like jumping into a time warp. Suddenly I can only pay by check or need to fax something in. Or I need to appear in person at the one office in California that will provide me the paper I need. In order to get a document attesting I had not been married before I had to take time out from seeing my parents in San Diego, take a train to LA, wait around at government offices, get the documents notarized by some guy who also ran a small deli.
Do you know how payment works in the Netherlands? I know a Mexican lady here who sells me tamales. Once I have made my order she sends me a link (it is called a Tikkie) via Whatsapp. I click on the link, confirm with my banking app the amount and payee and then the money is transferred from my bank account to hers. Done. Anybody can use it. Online payment is with iDeal which means the website shows me a QR code, I scan it with my phone, confirm and Done.
I have one authentication provider (DigId) which I can use to access all government services, my health insurance overview, my pension plan, any immigration sites. All postal mail from the government is also scanned as a pdf and available to me in a unified inbox online.
I have one card in my wallet (OV-chipkaart) which I use for all public transportation (trains, metro, local buses) in the entire country. It can also be used to rent a bike.
So, things mostly work. Of course, there is another side to this. There are also horrible blunders in the system such as the recent child welfare scandal where this supposedly efficient bureacracy terrorized innocent people. Also, an advanced identity system has the drawback that it can be used against its citizens. This is not theoretical. It is how Jews were so easily identified here in the Netherlands during WW2.
posted by vacapinta at 1:19 AM on July 28, 2021 [15 favorites]
They also sometimes band into communities to help each other through this. The only way my mom was able to navigate the US Citizenship process was because her church held free classes on how to navigate it. Of course, the fact she needed to take time in the evenings, right after getting off work from her housekeeping job, in order to figure out a bureaucratic process is a problem in itself.
Is it like this in other countries? Norway, England, France? Or is this a uniquely American phenomenon?
I grew up in the US but now live in the Netherlands. Whenever I have to deal with anything US-related it is like jumping into a time warp. Suddenly I can only pay by check or need to fax something in. Or I need to appear in person at the one office in California that will provide me the paper I need. In order to get a document attesting I had not been married before I had to take time out from seeing my parents in San Diego, take a train to LA, wait around at government offices, get the documents notarized by some guy who also ran a small deli.
Do you know how payment works in the Netherlands? I know a Mexican lady here who sells me tamales. Once I have made my order she sends me a link (it is called a Tikkie) via Whatsapp. I click on the link, confirm with my banking app the amount and payee and then the money is transferred from my bank account to hers. Done. Anybody can use it. Online payment is with iDeal which means the website shows me a QR code, I scan it with my phone, confirm and Done.
I have one authentication provider (DigId) which I can use to access all government services, my health insurance overview, my pension plan, any immigration sites. All postal mail from the government is also scanned as a pdf and available to me in a unified inbox online.
I have one card in my wallet (OV-chipkaart) which I use for all public transportation (trains, metro, local buses) in the entire country. It can also be used to rent a bike.
So, things mostly work. Of course, there is another side to this. There are also horrible blunders in the system such as the recent child welfare scandal where this supposedly efficient bureacracy terrorized innocent people. Also, an advanced identity system has the drawback that it can be used against its citizens. This is not theoretical. It is how Jews were so easily identified here in the Netherlands during WW2.
posted by vacapinta at 1:19 AM on July 28, 2021 [15 favorites]
Let's not even get into the 1.4 billion dollar debt recovery scam [the Australian government] inflicted on welfare and former welfare recipients.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts
That would be 'scam' spelt 'ruthless fraudulent extortion writ large on the most vulnerable in our society'.
––––––
Then this trips the "fraud" detection flag...
posted by xdvesper
Speaking as a 'client' of Centrelink in Australia for decades: The most important informal rule for survival is don't change anything.
Name, address, phone number, employment or educational or relationship status, bank and bank balance (beyond normal week to week expenditure pattern), travel patterns, etc. Changing any of those is a potential flag from the statistical profiling algorithms inviting a closer inspection by the privatised welfare Gestapo.
Not a guarantee of safety, and often impractical, of course. But basically don't attract attention to your self.
posted by Pouteria at 2:24 AM on July 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts
That would be 'scam' spelt 'ruthless fraudulent extortion writ large on the most vulnerable in our society'.
––––––
Then this trips the "fraud" detection flag...
posted by xdvesper
Speaking as a 'client' of Centrelink in Australia for decades: The most important informal rule for survival is don't change anything.
Name, address, phone number, employment or educational or relationship status, bank and bank balance (beyond normal week to week expenditure pattern), travel patterns, etc. Changing any of those is a potential flag from the statistical profiling algorithms inviting a closer inspection by the privatised welfare Gestapo.
Not a guarantee of safety, and often impractical, of course. But basically don't attract attention to your self.
posted by Pouteria at 2:24 AM on July 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
UK:
The childcare tax credit system is very bureaucratic and requires a lot of time. If you're a full-time employee with nothing special about you then the tax system is very simple: anything where you get money OUT of the tax system is much more cumbersome, and the childcare credits particularly so.
If you are low-paid (e.g. you work only a few hours, to fit round childcare) and therefore qualify for "Universal Credit", then you lose the benefit if you are paid twice in a month: not a calendar month, but an arbitrary month from when you first claimed, and which cannot be changed. Thousands were caught out because they got paid twice in their "month" - for example, because of bank holidays like Christmas. Four women had to take the Government to court to fix it.
posted by Exercise Bike at 3:26 AM on July 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Exercise Bike at 3:26 AM on July 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
But the form proudly states: "Estimated burden: 20 minutes"
"Estimating Paperwork Burden"
Fascinating 1999 OMB memo agonizing over how to decide whose time is worth what when trying to "monetize" paperwork burden for comparative purposes:
In estimating the appropriate wage rate, it is critical that the wage be properly "loaded" to include overhead and fringe benefit costs associated with the employee's time. For example, although a technical employee's wage may be $20 per hour, she may also receive benefits from her firm such as health and life insurance, paid vacation, and contributions to a retirement plan. To support her work activities, her employer must also purchase office supplies and services, including office space, furniture, heat and air conditioning, electricity, a telephone and telephone service, a personal computer, printer and photocopier access, and various office supplies. These costs need to be accounted for when assessing the overall impact of the Federal information collection on the resources of the respondent.
For household-based collections, the issue is inherently more complex. People are generally not paid a wage for non-work activities that they perform at home. Instead, for burden measurement purposes, the value that people place on their time is usually expressed in economic terms as "opportunity cost," or the value of an activity (for example, spending time with family or developing a new professional skill) that a person would expect to engage in were he or she not occupied in complying with a government reporting requirement. Economic theory suggests that the opportunity cost of giving up an hour of leisure will be equal to the wage foregone from the next hour the individual would have worked. In most cases, this will be the same as the respondent's average wage. In other cases - for example, if the respondent is eligible for overtime pay for her forty-first hour of work in a week - it may be more than the average wage.
Alternatively, to measure the value of leisure time, agencies could observe the actual fees paid by individuals and businesses to others (e.g., paid tax preparers, contractors) to prepare and submit information to the government. This measurement approach is sometimes referred to as "revealed preference."
It also noted that even in 1999, much of the burden was becoming associated with access to technology.
In earlier decades, when information was maintained manually rather than through automation, paperwork burden could be captured by estimating the "burden hours" that an individual, a company, or other entity would have to expend in filling out a form or otherwise responding to an agency collection. Over the succeeding years, as computers and other automated systems have assumed an ever-increasing role in society, paperwork burden has increasingly come to be represented by the financial costs associated with information technology.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:00 AM on July 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
"Estimating Paperwork Burden"
Fascinating 1999 OMB memo agonizing over how to decide whose time is worth what when trying to "monetize" paperwork burden for comparative purposes:
In estimating the appropriate wage rate, it is critical that the wage be properly "loaded" to include overhead and fringe benefit costs associated with the employee's time. For example, although a technical employee's wage may be $20 per hour, she may also receive benefits from her firm such as health and life insurance, paid vacation, and contributions to a retirement plan. To support her work activities, her employer must also purchase office supplies and services, including office space, furniture, heat and air conditioning, electricity, a telephone and telephone service, a personal computer, printer and photocopier access, and various office supplies. These costs need to be accounted for when assessing the overall impact of the Federal information collection on the resources of the respondent.
For household-based collections, the issue is inherently more complex. People are generally not paid a wage for non-work activities that they perform at home. Instead, for burden measurement purposes, the value that people place on their time is usually expressed in economic terms as "opportunity cost," or the value of an activity (for example, spending time with family or developing a new professional skill) that a person would expect to engage in were he or she not occupied in complying with a government reporting requirement. Economic theory suggests that the opportunity cost of giving up an hour of leisure will be equal to the wage foregone from the next hour the individual would have worked. In most cases, this will be the same as the respondent's average wage. In other cases - for example, if the respondent is eligible for overtime pay for her forty-first hour of work in a week - it may be more than the average wage.
Alternatively, to measure the value of leisure time, agencies could observe the actual fees paid by individuals and businesses to others (e.g., paid tax preparers, contractors) to prepare and submit information to the government. This measurement approach is sometimes referred to as "revealed preference."
It also noted that even in 1999, much of the burden was becoming associated with access to technology.
In earlier decades, when information was maintained manually rather than through automation, paperwork burden could be captured by estimating the "burden hours" that an individual, a company, or other entity would have to expend in filling out a form or otherwise responding to an agency collection. Over the succeeding years, as computers and other automated systems have assumed an ever-increasing role in society, paperwork burden has increasingly come to be represented by the financial costs associated with information technology.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:00 AM on July 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
When I lost my job at the beginning of the pandemic, I applied for unemployment in New Jersey, which was the state I'd worked in for a month before getting laid off. They deleted my application and I missed the call back explaining how they didn't have an earning statement because my employer had fucked up. (My employer was in Minnesota, it was through a temp agency.) I refiled two more times and it was just deleted out of the system both times. I escalated both times and got nothing. I tried contacting my congressman, but he never got back to me. Eventually, through a media connection that my wife has, someone got my story to one of the head aids for the Governor of New Jersey. Then I got a phone call a week later sorting everything out. Without that connection, I'd still be screaming into the wind. Even when I did finally get things sorted, they just left blank the amount I'd earned in New Jersey and just included the amount that I'd earned working for New York.
There was no way to appeal, the people at the base level couldn't even see that my application had ever been in the system and the escalation process was swamped. This was all because my former employers in another state had screwed up the forms they sent to another state. I did everything right. But the people deleting my application out of the system did not have to contact me after the first voicemail. I never had a chance to argue my case. Kafkaesque is overused, but it's the word that comes to mind.
And this was New Jersey, one of the more liberal states in the US. A place where they were actively trying to get people their unemployment, unlike Florida, which intentionally had a shit system. I recognize just how privileged I was with this, but it shouldn't take a privileged position to fix something that an employer screwed up.
We need nationalized unemployment and Medicaid, but that would prevent the folks in certain states from punishing thePOC others poor for existing in their state and not dying or moving to California. It's telling that regular social security and medicare are national, as middle class and rich people get those.
posted by Hactar at 9:38 AM on July 28, 2021 [11 favorites]
There was no way to appeal, the people at the base level couldn't even see that my application had ever been in the system and the escalation process was swamped. This was all because my former employers in another state had screwed up the forms they sent to another state. I did everything right. But the people deleting my application out of the system did not have to contact me after the first voicemail. I never had a chance to argue my case. Kafkaesque is overused, but it's the word that comes to mind.
And this was New Jersey, one of the more liberal states in the US. A place where they were actively trying to get people their unemployment, unlike Florida, which intentionally had a shit system. I recognize just how privileged I was with this, but it shouldn't take a privileged position to fix something that an employer screwed up.
We need nationalized unemployment and Medicaid, but that would prevent the folks in certain states from punishing the
posted by Hactar at 9:38 AM on July 28, 2021 [11 favorites]
This is the kind of thing 18F was built for, but the larger point in my opinion is that government and corporations have the ability to make systems that do not steal our time, but they choose not to. As the article notes, systems and services aimed at the middle and upper class frequently can be relatively frictionless.
The other thing that happens is a simple inability or unwillingness to consider and build systems from the perspective of those using them. From a bureaucratic perspective you may have to consider every edge case, but that doesn't mean your system has to make that the user's problem.
As someone who has lived in the US and the UK, the amount of mental and emotional resources I spend thinking about healthcare in the US is really hard to convey to someone who knows no alternative.
posted by idb at 11:43 AM on July 28, 2021
The other thing that happens is a simple inability or unwillingness to consider and build systems from the perspective of those using them. From a bureaucratic perspective you may have to consider every edge case, but that doesn't mean your system has to make that the user's problem.
As someone who has lived in the US and the UK, the amount of mental and emotional resources I spend thinking about healthcare in the US is really hard to convey to someone who knows no alternative.
posted by idb at 11:43 AM on July 28, 2021
This is one of the more damning strikes against libertarianism that I never see get brought up. The requirements for navigating the paperwork and bureaucracy of numerous aspects of life from health care to retirement to insurance is a nightmare enough to keep track of. You want to add numerous other entities vying for our time and attention like road toll companies, private fire squads and police forces and then expect people to deal with violations via litigation instead of going to law enforcement? Fuck that.
posted by charred husk at 11:58 AM on July 28, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by charred husk at 11:58 AM on July 28, 2021 [9 favorites]
Is it like this in other countries? Norway, England, France? Or is this a uniquely American phenomenon?
I believe there is a solid citation for this in English literature, from December of 1843. Here is a representative excerpt:
Sooooo.... We're not pioneers here, and I wish we could have found a different way.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:39 PM on July 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
I believe there is a solid citation for this in English literature, from December of 1843. Here is a representative excerpt:
"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.--
"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"
"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."
"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.
"Both very busy, sir."
"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I'm very glad to hear it."
Sooooo.... We're not pioneers here, and I wish we could have found a different way.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:39 PM on July 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
My application for residency was endlessly stalled because different government agencies in the same country "captured" my name differently.
I've personally experienced a microcosm of this: I have no middle name. Some government agencies -- particularly in the dawn of their automation, which happened right around when I started interacting with government agencies -- had absolutely no concept that this could be possible. I have been told variously that I can omit my middle name if I just provide the (non-existent) initial, that I should make up a middle name, that I should use "NMI" as my middle name, or that it's an error on my part because it's illegal not to have a middle name.
For my small and relatively easy to deal with case I've had to deal with a certain amount of friction. For someone whose name does not conform to Anglophone naming traditions, it must be nigh insurmountable at times.
posted by majick at 2:32 PM on July 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've personally experienced a microcosm of this: I have no middle name. Some government agencies -- particularly in the dawn of their automation, which happened right around when I started interacting with government agencies -- had absolutely no concept that this could be possible. I have been told variously that I can omit my middle name if I just provide the (non-existent) initial, that I should make up a middle name, that I should use "NMI" as my middle name, or that it's an error on my part because it's illegal not to have a middle name.
For my small and relatively easy to deal with case I've had to deal with a certain amount of friction. For someone whose name does not conform to Anglophone naming traditions, it must be nigh insurmountable at times.
posted by majick at 2:32 PM on July 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
^As adults, my Catholic parents adopted their confirmation names as their middle names when such-and-such legal process demanded it (automated payroll, for example). Later on, they had the occasional friction-filled .gov dealing when their original birth certificates and other early documents did not have that second name.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:27 PM on July 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:27 PM on July 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
I got so fed up with Oregon's sh1t-stick unemployment system last year, redialing hundreds of times only to be put on hold for hours, that I wrote my representative, something I've never done before. To my utter amazement he called me directly and put me in touch with someone at OED right quick.
posted by gottabefunky at 3:35 PM on July 28, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 3:35 PM on July 28, 2021 [8 favorites]
Can we also give a hat-tip to the proliferation of interconnected systems where, once an error is created, it escapes into the bureaucratic wilderness to multiply?
Worst case I know of - the wrong date was entered on the birth paperwork at the hospital (traumatic first time birth PLUS 48 hours of major effort to ensure survival of mother and baby PLUS exhausted doctor, staff and family = mistake). By the time the error was detected, the doctor who had signed the paperwork was not available for a few days, by which time the wrong date had been entered into the Births Deaths and Marriages registry, which then proceeded to transfer the wrong details to Centrelink/Social Security, Medicare, citizenship etc.
The child was set to be enrolled at school - sure enough - wrong birth date.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 7:39 PM on July 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
Worst case I know of - the wrong date was entered on the birth paperwork at the hospital (traumatic first time birth PLUS 48 hours of major effort to ensure survival of mother and baby PLUS exhausted doctor, staff and family = mistake). By the time the error was detected, the doctor who had signed the paperwork was not available for a few days, by which time the wrong date had been entered into the Births Deaths and Marriages registry, which then proceeded to transfer the wrong details to Centrelink/Social Security, Medicare, citizenship etc.
The child was set to be enrolled at school - sure enough - wrong birth date.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 7:39 PM on July 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
Worst case I know of - the wrong date was entered on the birth paperwork at the hospital (traumatic first time birth PLUS 48 hours of major effort to ensure survival of mother and baby PLUS exhausted doctor, staff and family = mistake)
I might be able to top that. The nurse entered the wrong first name for me. That went on my birth certificate. By the time the error was discovered so many other things had been generated from that (school certificates, medical, etc) that it was best to just adopt that as my first name.
Why did this happen? My parents spoke no English. The nurses spoke no Spanish.
posted by vacapinta at 3:43 AM on July 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
I might be able to top that. The nurse entered the wrong first name for me. That went on my birth certificate. By the time the error was discovered so many other things had been generated from that (school certificates, medical, etc) that it was best to just adopt that as my first name.
Why did this happen? My parents spoke no English. The nurses spoke no Spanish.
posted by vacapinta at 3:43 AM on July 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
The flip side of that though is that the name is very English whereas my parents had given me a very Spanish first name. That, combined with the fact that my last name is not strongly Spanish (it is most likely French derived) makes me look/sound very "white" on paper instead of Mexican which is what I am.
I can't help wondering if that actually helped me unknowingly dodge a lot of discrimination in my life...
posted by vacapinta at 3:49 AM on July 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
I can't help wondering if that actually helped me unknowingly dodge a lot of discrimination in my life...
posted by vacapinta at 3:49 AM on July 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
E-Estonia appears to be a serious attempt to calm this kind of bullshit down via carefully considered IT systems. I would be interested to hear from anybody who regularly interacts with the Estonian bureaucracy on how well it works.
posted by flabdablet at 9:56 AM on July 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 9:56 AM on July 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
Anecdotally, when I visited Estonia, the first thing everyone I met wanted to tell me about their country was how they do everything online and how easy it all is. "Did you know we vote online? Did you know we can cut down Christmas trees in a state forest and pay for them with an app?" Yes, the last five Estonians I talked to told me the exact same thing! I can't claim that I interacted with a representative sample of the population, but people really seemed sincerely proud of their government, and its digital services in particular.
posted by naoko at 2:11 PM on July 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by naoko at 2:11 PM on July 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
Re Estonia: they had a significant data breach just yesterday.
Hacker downloads close to 300,000 personal ID photos
They seem to be dealing with it rather well, though. They were able to track the theft (despite the use of a botnet to harvest the photos), raid the premises (located in Talinn), recover the data, notify everyone whose photos were stolen, fix the vulnerability, and use it to prompt a discussion about defending against cybercrime in the future. Pretty much everything you'd want to see.
I'm honestly impressed, after too many years of the US corporate model of "deny, distract, coverup, lie, reluctantly come clean (once it's in the press), reassure shareholders, ignore any and all damage, learn nothing, give executives raises".
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:07 PM on July 29, 2021 [10 favorites]
Hacker downloads close to 300,000 personal ID photos
They seem to be dealing with it rather well, though. They were able to track the theft (despite the use of a botnet to harvest the photos), raid the premises (located in Talinn), recover the data, notify everyone whose photos were stolen, fix the vulnerability, and use it to prompt a discussion about defending against cybercrime in the future. Pretty much everything you'd want to see.
I'm honestly impressed, after too many years of the US corporate model of "deny, distract, coverup, lie, reluctantly come clean (once it's in the press), reassure shareholders, ignore any and all damage, learn nothing, give executives raises".
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:07 PM on July 29, 2021 [10 favorites]
Sounds promising. If the world eventually finds its way around to citizenship without geographical borders and Government as a Service being the normal way of things, Estonia's offering will certainly be on my shortlist.
posted by flabdablet at 8:49 AM on July 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 8:49 AM on July 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
They were able to track the theft (despite the use of a botnet to harvest the photos), raid the premises (located in Talinn), recover the data, notify everyone whose photos were stolen, fix the vulnerability, and use it to prompt a discussion about defending against cybercrime in the future.
Not only that, but the photos that were stolen were never an authenticator for Estonia's identity systems because those systems are digital from the ground up, not backward-compatible shims over paper-based legacy methods. Fake ID cards made using the stolen photos would simply never work in Estonia, though they might (as the linked article notes) be of some use in scams conducted elsewhere.
posted by flabdablet at 1:48 AM on July 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
Not only that, but the photos that were stolen were never an authenticator for Estonia's identity systems because those systems are digital from the ground up, not backward-compatible shims over paper-based legacy methods. Fake ID cards made using the stolen photos would simply never work in Estonia, though they might (as the linked article notes) be of some use in scams conducted elsewhere.
posted by flabdablet at 1:48 AM on July 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
Sounds promising. If the world eventually finds its way around to citizenship without geographical borders and Government as a Service being the normal way of things, Estonia's offering will certainly be on my shortlist.
They've come a long way since Encino Man.
look, it's brendan fraser week on the internet
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:28 AM on August 14, 2021
They've come a long way since Encino Man.
look, it's brendan fraser week on the internet
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:28 AM on August 14, 2021
« Older Portrait of a Professional Baby Maker | "God only knows what I'd be without ewe" Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by iamkimiam at 2:49 PM on July 27, 2021 [21 favorites]