David Anthony Andrew Amess (March 26, 1952 – October 15, 2021)
October 15, 2021 7:57 PM Subscribe
The killing of Conservative MP Sir David Amess has been declared a terrorist incident by police. [BBC]
Sir David, 69, who represented Southend West, was holding a constituency surgery - where voters can meet their MP and discuss concerns - at Belfairs Methodist Church on Friday when he was attacked at 12:05 BST.
Sir David had been an MP since 1983 and was married with five children. He is the second serving MP to be killed in the past five years, following the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox in 2016.
'It will shatter the community': constituents remember MP David Amess – video [The Guardian]
He was "so kind to everyone" said Rofique Ali, a local Conservative Party member, who described the MP as his best friend in the world. [BBC]
Kim Leadbeater, the MP whose sister Jo Cox was murdered in 2016, has paid tribute to David Amess. [BBC, video]
One of MP Amess's last tweets [Twitter]
Sir David, 69, who represented Southend West, was holding a constituency surgery - where voters can meet their MP and discuss concerns - at Belfairs Methodist Church on Friday when he was attacked at 12:05 BST.
Sir David had been an MP since 1983 and was married with five children. He is the second serving MP to be killed in the past five years, following the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox in 2016.
'It will shatter the community': constituents remember MP David Amess – video [The Guardian]
He was "so kind to everyone" said Rofique Ali, a local Conservative Party member, who described the MP as his best friend in the world. [BBC]
Kim Leadbeater, the MP whose sister Jo Cox was murdered in 2016, has paid tribute to David Amess. [BBC, video]
One of MP Amess's last tweets [Twitter]
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posted by clavdivs at 8:36 PM on October 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 8:36 PM on October 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
As unquestionably terrible as his murder was, he was also a strident homophobe and Islamophobe, and he used his office to push those agendas. There are a lot of "kind" people who are also hateful, and many of them do not get to wield political power over others to actively make people's lives worse.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:41 PM on October 15, 2021 [67 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:41 PM on October 15, 2021 [67 favorites]
As unquestionably terrible as his murder was, he was also
he was murdered. that's an act of war. Doesn't matter who did it.
posted by philip-random at 9:13 PM on October 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
he was murdered. that's an act of war. Doesn't matter who did it.
posted by philip-random at 9:13 PM on October 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
he was murdered. that's an act of war.
No, that's a crime. A revolting one that cannot help but bring further misery to the world.
War would be invading Afghanistan on flimsy pretences then spending twenty years killing somewhere between 170,000 and 350,000 Afghans, as well as 3,500 of our own troops.
posted by happyinmotion at 9:16 PM on October 15, 2021 [130 favorites]
No, that's a crime. A revolting one that cannot help but bring further misery to the world.
War would be invading Afghanistan on flimsy pretences then spending twenty years killing somewhere between 170,000 and 350,000 Afghans, as well as 3,500 of our own troops.
posted by happyinmotion at 9:16 PM on October 15, 2021 [130 favorites]
to be clear, when a politician is murdered, it's an act of war ...
posted by philip-random at 9:25 PM on October 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by philip-random at 9:25 PM on October 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
to be clear, when a politician is murdered, it's an act of war ...
When a politician is murdered by an agent of a foreign state on the orders of that state's ruling apparatus it's an act of war. When a politician is murdered by pretty much anyone else it's usually an assassination, and sometimes also an act of terrorism. If you're going to double down on precision in terminology, I recommend making sure you're right.
posted by tclark at 9:29 PM on October 15, 2021 [138 favorites]
When a politician is murdered by an agent of a foreign state on the orders of that state's ruling apparatus it's an act of war. When a politician is murdered by pretty much anyone else it's usually an assassination, and sometimes also an act of terrorism. If you're going to double down on precision in terminology, I recommend making sure you're right.
posted by tclark at 9:29 PM on October 15, 2021 [138 favorites]
to be clear, when a politician is murdered, it's an act of war ...
This is rhetoric of escalation that serves to flatten all nuance. I reject it entirely.
posted by wemayfreeze at 9:30 PM on October 15, 2021 [117 favorites]
This is rhetoric of escalation that serves to flatten all nuance. I reject it entirely.
posted by wemayfreeze at 9:30 PM on October 15, 2021 [117 favorites]
There must be a way to express everything that is terrible about this murder without ignoring that the victim was a hateful man.
to be clear, when a politician is murdered, it's an act of war ...
This rhetoric isn't just factually incorrect, it's dangerous.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:33 PM on October 15, 2021 [61 favorites]
to be clear, when a politician is murdered, it's an act of war ...
This rhetoric isn't just factually incorrect, it's dangerous.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:33 PM on October 15, 2021 [61 favorites]
when a politician is murdered, it's an act of war
So when Jo Cox was murdered by a Scotsman, that was an act in a British civil war? That's a silly claim.
Murder is a crime between people. War is an act of nations. The two are categorically different.
(And civil war is an act between people who both claim to be acting on behalf of a nation.)
If this is a politically-motivated act of terrorism, then treating it as war instead of crime elevates the attacker to the status of a representative of a nation state, instead of a deluded criminal. Do you not see that it is offensive and counter-productive to honour a murderer in that way?
That is what you are doing and I reject it.
posted by happyinmotion at 9:36 PM on October 15, 2021 [46 favorites]
So when Jo Cox was murdered by a Scotsman, that was an act in a British civil war? That's a silly claim.
Murder is a crime between people. War is an act of nations. The two are categorically different.
(And civil war is an act between people who both claim to be acting on behalf of a nation.)
If this is a politically-motivated act of terrorism, then treating it as war instead of crime elevates the attacker to the status of a representative of a nation state, instead of a deluded criminal. Do you not see that it is offensive and counter-productive to honour a murderer in that way?
That is what you are doing and I reject it.
posted by happyinmotion at 9:36 PM on October 15, 2021 [46 favorites]
MPs in the UK are always going to be vulnerable to these kinds of attacks, as they are [at least semi-] famous people who need to interact directly with the public as part of their job. Their role as representatives of their constituency is particularly important, since the UK lacks an elected upper house or elected head of state - depending on how you voted, your MP might potentially express most or all of your political preferences, but regardless of how you voted, they are your only political representative at the national level.
That said, despite their intrinsic vulnerability, it’s frustrating to me that this has happened. I feel like there was a major opportunity to take stock after the killing of Jo Cox, given that the move to “stochastic terrorism” was already well under way by extremists of all kinds (where lone wolves are encouraged - deniably or otherwise - to improvise attacks with what they have to hand, so even the drivers of the act can’t predict specifically when and where attacks will take place, or by who). I can’t help feeling that Cox’s assassination was inconvenient to the prevailing political narrative, and everyone was in a great hurry to ignore it and move on. If it hadn’t been memory-holed like that, we might have ended up with a proper assessment of MP’s security, and this might not have happened.
Now that assassination has been shown to find its victims from across the political spectrum, perhaps there will be an attempt to find solutions. On the other hand, it seems just as likely that there will be a disproportionate reaction focused on what looks to have been the specific threat in this instance (Islamic terrorism).
posted by chappell, ambrose at 9:44 PM on October 15, 2021 [22 favorites]
That said, despite their intrinsic vulnerability, it’s frustrating to me that this has happened. I feel like there was a major opportunity to take stock after the killing of Jo Cox, given that the move to “stochastic terrorism” was already well under way by extremists of all kinds (where lone wolves are encouraged - deniably or otherwise - to improvise attacks with what they have to hand, so even the drivers of the act can’t predict specifically when and where attacks will take place, or by who). I can’t help feeling that Cox’s assassination was inconvenient to the prevailing political narrative, and everyone was in a great hurry to ignore it and move on. If it hadn’t been memory-holed like that, we might have ended up with a proper assessment of MP’s security, and this might not have happened.
Now that assassination has been shown to find its victims from across the political spectrum, perhaps there will be an attempt to find solutions. On the other hand, it seems just as likely that there will be a disproportionate reaction focused on what looks to have been the specific threat in this instance (Islamic terrorism).
posted by chappell, ambrose at 9:44 PM on October 15, 2021 [22 favorites]
Condolences to his family. The complexity of this event might cause a lot of feelings.
posted by bleep at 11:14 PM on October 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 11:14 PM on October 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
I never met the man, but I do know one of his 5 children. She is a kind and caring person. Lives in the States. May the family find peace, and may his memory be a blessing.
I don't know about his politics, but no one deserves to die. It is not an act of war, but from what I read, it was declared an act of terrorism. Not sure if that term has any legal distinction in Britain or if it does, what that might mean.
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posted by AugustWest at 12:35 AM on October 16, 2021 [12 favorites]
I don't know about his politics, but no one deserves to die. It is not an act of war, but from what I read, it was declared an act of terrorism. Not sure if that term has any legal distinction in Britain or if it does, what that might mean.
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posted by AugustWest at 12:35 AM on October 16, 2021 [12 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted. Please drop the weird "Act of War" derail, everyone.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:43 AM on October 16, 2021 [34 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 12:43 AM on October 16, 2021 [34 favorites]
I don't know about his politics, but no one deserves to die.
Amess' voting record was pretty hard-line Catholic anti-EU conservative: for Brexit, against same-sex marriage, against lifting the Northern Ireland abortion ban, against Marcus Rashford's free school meals. He had been in the news for large expense claims despite owning two London homes, for some moments in his battle to have Southend declared a city, and, tragically, for concerns about constituents' surgery following Jo Cox' murder.
So I second that no one deserves to be murdered. But, as others have already pointed out here, to reduce this to just an issue of politician's safety or just the lone fanatic (or indeed to frame the incident with cat tweets) is definitely questionable.
posted by progosk at 12:54 AM on October 16, 2021 [15 favorites]
Amess' voting record was pretty hard-line Catholic anti-EU conservative: for Brexit, against same-sex marriage, against lifting the Northern Ireland abortion ban, against Marcus Rashford's free school meals. He had been in the news for large expense claims despite owning two London homes, for some moments in his battle to have Southend declared a city, and, tragically, for concerns about constituents' surgery following Jo Cox' murder.
So I second that no one deserves to be murdered. But, as others have already pointed out here, to reduce this to just an issue of politician's safety or just the lone fanatic (or indeed to frame the incident with cat tweets) is definitely questionable.
posted by progosk at 12:54 AM on October 16, 2021 [15 favorites]
It's partly social media's turbo-charging of abusive language against anyone you disagree with which has created the atmosphere leading to this murder. Throwing around words like "hateful" - particularly when applied to a murder victim - really doesn't help.
posted by Paul Slade at 1:12 AM on October 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 1:12 AM on October 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
2016: Labour MP Jo Cox murderered by a white man with known Neo-Nazi affilitions who shouts 'Britain First!'
Conclusion: "a loner with a history of mental illness"
2021: Tory MP David Amess murdered by a black man who happens to be a Muslim.
Conclusion: Terrorist attack
posted by vacapinta at 2:16 AM on October 16, 2021 [128 favorites]
Conclusion: "a loner with a history of mental illness"
2021: Tory MP David Amess murdered by a black man who happens to be a Muslim.
Conclusion: Terrorist attack
posted by vacapinta at 2:16 AM on October 16, 2021 [128 favorites]
I can’t help feeling that Cox’s assassination was inconvenient to the prevailing political narrative, and everyone was in a great hurry to ignore it and move on.
Absolutely. Jo Cox was shot and stabbed to death at her surgery by an anti-EU white supremacist and neo-nazi, because of her pro-EU (and thus "pro immigration") views - a *week* before the Brexit referendum. There was a great rush to downplay his actual words during the attack - "This is for Britain", "keep Britain independent", and "Put Britain first", and treat it as an attack by a lone madman that wasn't terrorism and had nothing to do with the political climate at the time, such as the vile "breaking point" poster, which was revealed earlier that day.
At trial, his defence counsel did not advance any diminished responsibility argument - it was a cold, premediated murder of an MP for her political views. It was handled under terrorism case protocols, though he was convicted of Cox's murder, GBH for stabbing a bystander who tried to come to her aid, possession of a firearm with intent, and possession of a dagger rather than anti-terror legislation. He did receive a whole-life sentence.
If the lessons could have been learned from that murder, if there hadn't been such a rush to downplay a terrorist attack by a white pro-Brexit fascist to try and sway the referendum, Amess might be alive today.
Amess had vile bigoted views, that actively made people's lives worse because of his actions as an MP. I detest everything he stood for. But he should not have been murdered, which is anathema to democracy. Maybe some small good will come from his death, if action may now be taken to protect all MPs since it appears it may also be an act of terrorism on a Tory backbencher this time, at his surgery for *his* political views.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 2:20 AM on October 16, 2021 [67 favorites]
Absolutely. Jo Cox was shot and stabbed to death at her surgery by an anti-EU white supremacist and neo-nazi, because of her pro-EU (and thus "pro immigration") views - a *week* before the Brexit referendum. There was a great rush to downplay his actual words during the attack - "This is for Britain", "keep Britain independent", and "Put Britain first", and treat it as an attack by a lone madman that wasn't terrorism and had nothing to do with the political climate at the time, such as the vile "breaking point" poster, which was revealed earlier that day.
At trial, his defence counsel did not advance any diminished responsibility argument - it was a cold, premediated murder of an MP for her political views. It was handled under terrorism case protocols, though he was convicted of Cox's murder, GBH for stabbing a bystander who tried to come to her aid, possession of a firearm with intent, and possession of a dagger rather than anti-terror legislation. He did receive a whole-life sentence.
If the lessons could have been learned from that murder, if there hadn't been such a rush to downplay a terrorist attack by a white pro-Brexit fascist to try and sway the referendum, Amess might be alive today.
Amess had vile bigoted views, that actively made people's lives worse because of his actions as an MP. I detest everything he stood for. But he should not have been murdered, which is anathema to democracy. Maybe some small good will come from his death, if action may now be taken to protect all MPs since it appears it may also be an act of terrorism on a Tory backbencher this time, at his surgery for *his* political views.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 2:20 AM on October 16, 2021 [67 favorites]
If there's anything to take away from this horrible thing, it's that the lives of Muslims and immigrants across the UK are about to become that much harder for the next few weeks (if not more). Expect an increase in hate crimes. Expect an increase in violence, especially if the murderer is found to have any sort of political agenda or manifesto (which will no doubt be leaked to the gutter press).
I've seen many people blaming the "rhetoric" of our modern politics for radicalising such views to the point of violence and I agree with them, though I also reject the attempts to "both sides" the issue.
Mostly it feels like just another day in the Discourse of this broken, failing country. I'm sorry a man died in a horrible way. I'm sorry that other innocent people will be blamed and will face consequences they don't deserve. But I'm also not really surprised at all.
posted by fight or flight at 3:50 AM on October 16, 2021 [19 favorites]
I've seen many people blaming the "rhetoric" of our modern politics for radicalising such views to the point of violence and I agree with them, though I also reject the attempts to "both sides" the issue.
Mostly it feels like just another day in the Discourse of this broken, failing country. I'm sorry a man died in a horrible way. I'm sorry that other innocent people will be blamed and will face consequences they don't deserve. But I'm also not really surprised at all.
posted by fight or flight at 3:50 AM on October 16, 2021 [19 favorites]
Amess had vile bigoted views, that actively made people's lives worse because of his actions as an MP. I detest everything he stood for.
in addition to his bigoted views on abortion, sexual harassment, capital punishment and lgbt rights (among other topics), the things he stood for included, at various times, animal welfare, bans on fox hunting, reducing fuel poverty, better endometriosis care, opposing military intervention in syria, supporting the impeachment of blair re iraq, commemorating raoul wallenberg, and campaigning against the dangerous drug known as 'cake'.
the latter don't excuse the former, and it's quite possible that on balance he made the world a worse place in his time as an mp. but he was a person, not a caricature.
posted by inire at 4:55 AM on October 16, 2021 [39 favorites]
in addition to his bigoted views on abortion, sexual harassment, capital punishment and lgbt rights (among other topics), the things he stood for included, at various times, animal welfare, bans on fox hunting, reducing fuel poverty, better endometriosis care, opposing military intervention in syria, supporting the impeachment of blair re iraq, commemorating raoul wallenberg, and campaigning against the dangerous drug known as 'cake'.
the latter don't excuse the former, and it's quite possible that on balance he made the world a worse place in his time as an mp. but he was a person, not a caricature.
posted by inire at 4:55 AM on October 16, 2021 [39 favorites]
2016: Labour MP Jo Cox murderered by a white man with known Neo-Nazi affilitions who shouts 'Britain First!'
Conclusion: "a loner with a history of mental illness"
2021: Tory MP David Amess murdered by a black man who happens to be a Muslim.
Conclusion: Terrorist attack
Stochastic terrorism: inciting violent ideation in mentally ill people for the sake of a terrorist agenda while maintaining plausible deniability (or at least plausible enough to avoid criminal conviction.) Can we agree that this applies to both murders here?
posted by ocschwar at 5:10 AM on October 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Conclusion: "a loner with a history of mental illness"
2021: Tory MP David Amess murdered by a black man who happens to be a Muslim.
Conclusion: Terrorist attack
Stochastic terrorism: inciting violent ideation in mentally ill people for the sake of a terrorist agenda while maintaining plausible deniability (or at least plausible enough to avoid criminal conviction.) Can we agree that this applies to both murders here?
posted by ocschwar at 5:10 AM on October 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Nope, we know that mental illness wasn't a factor in the choices of the man who chose to murder Jo Cox.
posted by ambrosen at 5:15 AM on October 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 5:15 AM on October 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
campaigning against the dangerous drug known as 'cake'
That was actually a case of him falling for a caricaturing prank, to which his party thought to respond by doubling down on the issue...
posted by progosk at 5:34 AM on October 16, 2021 [16 favorites]
That was actually a case of him falling for a caricaturing prank, to which his party thought to respond by doubling down on the issue...
posted by progosk at 5:34 AM on October 16, 2021 [16 favorites]
and campaigning against the dangerous drug known as 'cake'.
You.. might want to actually google that..
posted by fight or flight at 5:40 AM on October 16, 2021 [9 favorites]
You.. might want to actually google that..
posted by fight or flight at 5:40 AM on October 16, 2021 [9 favorites]
Statistically, one is more likely to be murdered by a person without mental illness than by a person with mental illness.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:42 AM on October 16, 2021
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:42 AM on October 16, 2021
You.. might want to actually google that..
statistically, one in three search engines is actually a paedophile in disguise, so i'm not going to take the chance, sorry
That was actually a case of him falling for a caricaturing prank
indeed it was, but contributing to the gaiety of the nation by making an absolute tit of yourself in public is a plus in my book
posted by inire at 6:06 AM on October 16, 2021 [15 favorites]
statistically, one in three search engines is actually a paedophile in disguise, so i'm not going to take the chance, sorry
That was actually a case of him falling for a caricaturing prank
indeed it was, but contributing to the gaiety of the nation by making an absolute tit of yourself in public is a plus in my book
posted by inire at 6:06 AM on October 16, 2021 [15 favorites]
The ability for ordinary constituents to meet their MP, and the expectation that MPs must make time for this, is one of the things I like best about the UK political traditions. It will be a shame if this is curtailed.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:16 AM on October 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:16 AM on October 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
> contributing to the gaiety of the nation by making an absolute tit of yourself in public is a plus in my book
I rather thought that one of the main points Chris Morris made was that the UK political system strongly selects for amiable types who aren’t afraid to make a tit of themselves in public (and by all accounts Amess was this kind of person) but it can lead to some appallingly bad policy directions.
I happen to have disagreed with Amess on just about everything, but that doesn’t make his murder any less horrifying or any less awful for his family. Nothing will be better for it, and many things much worse.
posted by doop at 7:00 AM on October 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
I rather thought that one of the main points Chris Morris made was that the UK political system strongly selects for amiable types who aren’t afraid to make a tit of themselves in public (and by all accounts Amess was this kind of person) but it can lead to some appallingly bad policy directions.
I happen to have disagreed with Amess on just about everything, but that doesn’t make his murder any less horrifying or any less awful for his family. Nothing will be better for it, and many things much worse.
posted by doop at 7:00 AM on October 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
What incidents like this will ultimately lead to is that only the richest 0.1%, who already have paid security staff and live in gated communities and whose children are in high security private schools, will be attracted to public service.
Who wants to serve as mayor of a city, or as a judge on a court, if you are going to have protesters on your front lawn, menacing your children? Or if they have to wear body armor every time they are in public?
posted by Bee'sWing at 7:16 AM on October 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
Who wants to serve as mayor of a city, or as a judge on a court, if you are going to have protesters on your front lawn, menacing your children? Or if they have to wear body armor every time they are in public?
posted by Bee'sWing at 7:16 AM on October 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
the latter don't excuse the former, and it's quite possible that on balance he made the world a worse place in his time as an mp. but he was a person, not a caricature.
OK, let's look at a sample of his voting record.
Consistently voted for more restrictive regulation of trade union activity.
Almost always voted for reducing capital gains tax (increasing wealth disparity)
Generally voted for increasing the rate of VAT (a very regressive tax)
Generally voted for a stricter asylum system
Consistently voted for the Iraq war
Generally voted against UK membership of the EU
Generally voted against a right to remain for EU nationals already in living in the UK
Almost always voted for use of UK military forces in combat operations overseas
Generally voted against measures to prevent climate change
Consistently voted for greater restrictions on campaigning by third parties, such as charities, during elections
Almost always voted for a reduction in spending on welfare benefits
Almost always voted against paying higher benefits over longer periods for those unable to work due to illness or disability
Plus backing austerity, being a brexiteer supporting the hardest possible Brexit, leading to a mass reduction in the public health and welfare, substantial tension in NI, lead to hatred and violence against immigrants, voted against feeding children in absolute poverty, backed Boris Johnson and the government generally which has presided over one of the worst public health responses in UK history leading to 10s of thousands of preventable deaths.
So fine, he was for animal welfare and better endometriosis care. I'm sure he was a very nice man to people just like him, and his family loved him. That doesn't even come close to offsetting the blood and pain on his hands, and the division and hatred he was part of stoking that have ripped this country apart and destroyed families. Still doesn't mean I wanted him harmed, or that murder is the way to fight such oppressive and harmful views as he espoused.
I will revise my statement to - I detest almost absolutely everything he stood for. He voted to send my wife back to France, even though she's lived here for nearly 20 years, breaking up our family. So yes, I take that a touch personally.
I hate that instead of proportionate measures to protect MPs after Cox's murder that might have prevented this, we're now likely going to see another round of islamaphobia from the government and a further ratcheting up of the hostile environment against entirely innocent immigrants.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 9:04 AM on October 16, 2021 [49 favorites]
OK, let's look at a sample of his voting record.
Consistently voted for more restrictive regulation of trade union activity.
Almost always voted for reducing capital gains tax (increasing wealth disparity)
Generally voted for increasing the rate of VAT (a very regressive tax)
Generally voted for a stricter asylum system
Consistently voted for the Iraq war
Generally voted against UK membership of the EU
Generally voted against a right to remain for EU nationals already in living in the UK
Almost always voted for use of UK military forces in combat operations overseas
Generally voted against measures to prevent climate change
Consistently voted for greater restrictions on campaigning by third parties, such as charities, during elections
Almost always voted for a reduction in spending on welfare benefits
Almost always voted against paying higher benefits over longer periods for those unable to work due to illness or disability
Plus backing austerity, being a brexiteer supporting the hardest possible Brexit, leading to a mass reduction in the public health and welfare, substantial tension in NI, lead to hatred and violence against immigrants, voted against feeding children in absolute poverty, backed Boris Johnson and the government generally which has presided over one of the worst public health responses in UK history leading to 10s of thousands of preventable deaths.
So fine, he was for animal welfare and better endometriosis care. I'm sure he was a very nice man to people just like him, and his family loved him. That doesn't even come close to offsetting the blood and pain on his hands, and the division and hatred he was part of stoking that have ripped this country apart and destroyed families. Still doesn't mean I wanted him harmed, or that murder is the way to fight such oppressive and harmful views as he espoused.
I will revise my statement to - I detest almost absolutely everything he stood for. He voted to send my wife back to France, even though she's lived here for nearly 20 years, breaking up our family. So yes, I take that a touch personally.
I hate that instead of proportionate measures to protect MPs after Cox's murder that might have prevented this, we're now likely going to see another round of islamaphobia from the government and a further ratcheting up of the hostile environment against entirely innocent immigrants.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 9:04 AM on October 16, 2021 [49 favorites]
Came across some pretty bleak "pun"-type posts on Twitter yesterday that made me feel old, because I couldn't make sense of how seemingly normal (eg not shitposting trolls for the most part) folks were ready to make jokes about a horrifying crime. Thanks to this discussion here, possibly, possibly, what this man stood for provides context for those postings.
posted by stevil at 9:09 AM on October 16, 2021
posted by stevil at 9:09 AM on October 16, 2021
.
posted by Urtylug at 11:18 AM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Urtylug at 11:18 AM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
The sad thing about Amess' murder is that the media outrage over it already eclipses any outrage over the 100,000 plus victims of austerity he helped kill, or the tens of thousands more death through covid.
The worst thing about it is seeing the mass media and pundits blame SoCiAl MeDiA rather than themselves for creating a climate in which judges and the house of lords were made out to be saboteurs and traitors, in which we've had a relentless five years campaign to make the very idea of the left and Labour illegitimate through bogus antisemitism accusations and the like.
Now that a Tory is killed is suddenly a problem, but Jo Cox's murder was swept under the carpet in weeks and the media never noticed nor seemed to care about the campaign of violence aimed at Labour campaigners during the last two elections which saw several activists hospitalised. Heck, when Jeremy Corbyn was assaulted it was treated like a joke.
Forty years of the Tory press whipping up hatred against migrants, gay people, trans people, leftist, the unemployed, disabled. Five years threatening violence against any remoaners who'd dare to stop Brexit and portraying a mild social democrat as a monster who'd reopen Auschwitz if he was elected. You have as prime minister the editor of a magazine that glorifies Greek neo-nazis and published articles eulogising the Wehrmacht on D-Day.
You have people on BBC television arguing that drowning migrants is a good thing.
Millions are spent to keep the British public as spiteful and hateful as possible and then you are surprised some rando actually decides that violence is the correct answer?
posted by MartinWisse at 12:29 PM on October 16, 2021 [40 favorites]
The worst thing about it is seeing the mass media and pundits blame SoCiAl MeDiA rather than themselves for creating a climate in which judges and the house of lords were made out to be saboteurs and traitors, in which we've had a relentless five years campaign to make the very idea of the left and Labour illegitimate through bogus antisemitism accusations and the like.
Now that a Tory is killed is suddenly a problem, but Jo Cox's murder was swept under the carpet in weeks and the media never noticed nor seemed to care about the campaign of violence aimed at Labour campaigners during the last two elections which saw several activists hospitalised. Heck, when Jeremy Corbyn was assaulted it was treated like a joke.
Forty years of the Tory press whipping up hatred against migrants, gay people, trans people, leftist, the unemployed, disabled. Five years threatening violence against any remoaners who'd dare to stop Brexit and portraying a mild social democrat as a monster who'd reopen Auschwitz if he was elected. You have as prime minister the editor of a magazine that glorifies Greek neo-nazis and published articles eulogising the Wehrmacht on D-Day.
You have people on BBC television arguing that drowning migrants is a good thing.
Millions are spent to keep the British public as spiteful and hateful as possible and then you are surprised some rando actually decides that violence is the correct answer?
posted by MartinWisse at 12:29 PM on October 16, 2021 [40 favorites]
i was under the impression that the sad and / or worst thing about a murder was generally thought to be the bit where a person dies, but perhaps i‘ve not spent enough time on twitter.
i also think it’s a mistake to draw too many parallels between this murder and jo cox’s murder. it’s not clear that the environment whipped up by the right wing press has much to do with amess’s murder, given that it’s now reported to be “linked to a jihadist ideology”, based on statements by the perpetrator post-arrest. extremists are perfectly capable of deciding to kill someone without being provoked by bigoted daily mail headlines.
beyond the fact that both involve the tragic death of an mp, the main parallel between this and jo cox’s death is the highlighting of the relative vulnerability of our politicians to physical violence, as reflected in most of the reported comments from mps and their staff - a lot of nervous people, and a lot of questions about how you keep seeing constituents without exposing yourself to potential violence (from any source).
posted by inire at 2:23 PM on October 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
i also think it’s a mistake to draw too many parallels between this murder and jo cox’s murder. it’s not clear that the environment whipped up by the right wing press has much to do with amess’s murder, given that it’s now reported to be “linked to a jihadist ideology”, based on statements by the perpetrator post-arrest. extremists are perfectly capable of deciding to kill someone without being provoked by bigoted daily mail headlines.
beyond the fact that both involve the tragic death of an mp, the main parallel between this and jo cox’s death is the highlighting of the relative vulnerability of our politicians to physical violence, as reflected in most of the reported comments from mps and their staff - a lot of nervous people, and a lot of questions about how you keep seeing constituents without exposing yourself to potential violence (from any source).
posted by inire at 2:23 PM on October 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
"Assassination" and "terrorism" are distinct words that usually have rather specific meanings.
posted by eotvos at 3:26 PM on October 16, 2021
posted by eotvos at 3:26 PM on October 16, 2021
My God you people are heartless over a dead man.
As were the policies he backed and voted for. It's been a tough decade under the Tories, and a *lot* of people have suffered and died here because of their actions, with a never-ending firehose of division and lies to whip up the mob and point it at whatever outgroup is to be blamed this time.
To draw a parallel for Americans - imagine a fully signed up Trumpist republican congressman was murdered. And the press were falling over each other to see who could beatify him the most, and pointing fingers at everyone bar themselves or politicians as to why politics is so full of hate now.
Believe me, I'm not happy about being so bitter either. I try not to hate them for the pain and loss they've intentionally inflicted on myself, my family and my friends (those that survived) but it's far from easy.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:13 PM on October 16, 2021 [22 favorites]
As were the policies he backed and voted for. It's been a tough decade under the Tories, and a *lot* of people have suffered and died here because of their actions, with a never-ending firehose of division and lies to whip up the mob and point it at whatever outgroup is to be blamed this time.
To draw a parallel for Americans - imagine a fully signed up Trumpist republican congressman was murdered. And the press were falling over each other to see who could beatify him the most, and pointing fingers at everyone bar themselves or politicians as to why politics is so full of hate now.
Believe me, I'm not happy about being so bitter either. I try not to hate them for the pain and loss they've intentionally inflicted on myself, my family and my friends (those that survived) but it's far from easy.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:13 PM on October 16, 2021 [22 favorites]
My God you people are heartless over a dead man.
Yes. I am. I don’t shed tears for bigots who spent their lives trying to oppress people like me, and many others besides. The mere fact of his death does not earn him respect that he did not earn in life.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:33 PM on October 16, 2021 [21 favorites]
Yes. I am. I don’t shed tears for bigots who spent their lives trying to oppress people like me, and many others besides. The mere fact of his death does not earn him respect that he did not earn in life.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:33 PM on October 16, 2021 [21 favorites]
>My God you people are heartless over a dead man.
I think that's how he would have deplored progressive commentary of the murder of a conservative politician. Thank you for your insight.
He took on the responsibility of being a parliamentary representative, for both "you people" and his people, and now communities are grieving -- some impacted by the way he voted, and also his family, friends and colleagues. An eye for an eye makes the world blind.
posted by k3ninho at 4:37 PM on October 16, 2021
I think that's how he would have deplored progressive commentary of the murder of a conservative politician. Thank you for your insight.
He took on the responsibility of being a parliamentary representative, for both "you people" and his people, and now communities are grieving -- some impacted by the way he voted, and also his family, friends and colleagues. An eye for an eye makes the world blind.
posted by k3ninho at 4:37 PM on October 16, 2021
tbh the heartlessness is understandable, as the product of damage (caused in part by him and his party). but it’s a symptom of moral and emotional injury, not something righteous, desirable or progressive.
it reminds me of past discussions re transformative justice - about how it’s very very hard to get out of a retaliatory mindset, especially when you and yours have spent so long as the wronged party and retaliation (by you or by fate) feels right. can’t blame people for being unable to get out of that mindset, but that doesn’t make it a good one.
posted by inire at 5:07 PM on October 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
it reminds me of past discussions re transformative justice - about how it’s very very hard to get out of a retaliatory mindset, especially when you and yours have spent so long as the wronged party and retaliation (by you or by fate) feels right. can’t blame people for being unable to get out of that mindset, but that doesn’t make it a good one.
posted by inire at 5:07 PM on October 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
My God you people are heartless over a dead man.
I am not happy Amess is being named in the same breath as Jo Cox, both here on a social media platform and in mainstream media. She does not deserve to be a footnote to that individual.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:25 PM on October 16, 2021
I am not happy Amess is being named in the same breath as Jo Cox, both here on a social media platform and in mainstream media. She does not deserve to be a footnote to that individual.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:25 PM on October 16, 2021
"An eye for an eye leaves the world blind."
This has always bugged me. You have someone going around taking eyes! They think this is a fine thing, because they are the eye-takers, and everyone is afraid of them. Obey, or they'll take your eyes. This is the way of things.
An eye for an eye says, instead, "Hey, you keep this up, and you're going to have a bad time too. Sure, we may both end up blind in the end, but at least we won't be subservient to you, we won't be eyeless and afraid while you lord over us." A world where everyone is blind, at least, is a world where everything is on an even footing again.
Obviously, nothing is ever as simple as an analogy would have it, but that saying misses the nuance that there are people out there who will just happily keep on taking eyes and will not be dissuaded by our better behaviour alone.
This has been a derail, I apologise. I feel for this man's family, at least inasmuch as to the degree where they were not also complicit in his hurtful policies and actions. I know it can be hard to distance yourself fully from family, even when they are utterly irredeemable, and any death in the family always shakes it to the foundations.
But also, this man lived a life of public office, working, at least to his opinion, to better his country and the world through debate and discourse. Holding such a debate on the circumstances around his career and subsequent murder would seem a furtherance of said work, showing at least respect to his profession, even if you cannot find his accomplishments while employed at said profession to be respectable.
posted by Imperfect at 9:45 PM on October 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
This has always bugged me. You have someone going around taking eyes! They think this is a fine thing, because they are the eye-takers, and everyone is afraid of them. Obey, or they'll take your eyes. This is the way of things.
An eye for an eye says, instead, "Hey, you keep this up, and you're going to have a bad time too. Sure, we may both end up blind in the end, but at least we won't be subservient to you, we won't be eyeless and afraid while you lord over us." A world where everyone is blind, at least, is a world where everything is on an even footing again.
Obviously, nothing is ever as simple as an analogy would have it, but that saying misses the nuance that there are people out there who will just happily keep on taking eyes and will not be dissuaded by our better behaviour alone.
This has been a derail, I apologise. I feel for this man's family, at least inasmuch as to the degree where they were not also complicit in his hurtful policies and actions. I know it can be hard to distance yourself fully from family, even when they are utterly irredeemable, and any death in the family always shakes it to the foundations.
But also, this man lived a life of public office, working, at least to his opinion, to better his country and the world through debate and discourse. Holding such a debate on the circumstances around his career and subsequent murder would seem a furtherance of said work, showing at least respect to his profession, even if you cannot find his accomplishments while employed at said profession to be respectable.
posted by Imperfect at 9:45 PM on October 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
For more context about the “more security for MP’s” aspect: after Jo Cox’s murder, spending ballooned to twentyfive times what it was previously (GBP 170K -> GBP 4,2M), while incident reports are still growing. The media taking itself out of the equation of the kind of political culture that a country gets baked in is… par for the course, sadly.
posted by progosk at 12:32 AM on October 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by progosk at 12:32 AM on October 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
The media taking itself out of the equation of the kind of political culture that a country gets baked in is… par for the course, sadly.Also, they're pretty shameless about it
posted by fullerine at 3:03 AM on October 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
My God you people are heartless over a dead man.
Left-wing people can be utter dicks too, sadly. I used to think we were morally superior to right-wing people, but MetaFilter taught me otherwise.
posted by Exercise Bike at 5:45 AM on October 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
Left-wing people can be utter dicks too, sadly. I used to think we were morally superior to right-wing people, but MetaFilter taught me otherwise.
posted by Exercise Bike at 5:45 AM on October 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
Having read the 45 comments so far, I'm glad to see that Metafilter hasn't changed at all. It was absolutely acceptable to murder him, because he had politics that you lot disagree with. Thank you for proving me right.
I disagree with his politics too. But that doesn't make it acceptable to immediately jump to sneering whataboutism about how his murder was much more acceptable than the killing of Jo Cox MP.
posted by Hugh Routley at 9:05 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
I disagree with his politics too. But that doesn't make it acceptable to immediately jump to sneering whataboutism about how his murder was much more acceptable than the killing of Jo Cox MP.
posted by Hugh Routley at 9:05 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
I disagree with his politics too.
Politics are also a matter of life and death.
posted by ambrosen at 12:30 PM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Politics are also a matter of life and death.
posted by ambrosen at 12:30 PM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
sneering whataboutism about how his murder was much more acceptable than the killing of Jo Cox MP
No one here has done this.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:02 PM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
No one here has done this.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:02 PM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
This is what the man himself had to say about the murder of Jo Cox, in a book he published last year entitled Ayes and Ears: A Survivor's Guide to Westminster. This text appears within a longer passage in which he speaks at length about the threats and attacks faced by MPs, and how heightened security has spoiled the tradition of people having direct contact with their elected representatives:
posted by automatronic at 1:55 AM on October 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
The murder of Jo Cox was still totally unexpected. She had been an MP for a very short time, having been elected in May 2015. She was approaching the library where her constituency surgery was to be held, when she was attacked and killed in the most barbaric fashion imaginable. This event took place during the 2016 EU Referendum Campaign and had a galvanising effect on the campaign, the general public and Members themselves. My colleague Marc Francois alarted me to the attack, at which time he was unaware that Jo had actually died. She was a young woman with a family going about her duties as we all do, completely unaware of the threat that she faced. While it is often said that good can come out of someone's death, it is difficult to see what good can come from this senseless murder.I didn't agree with David Amess on much. But his writing treats other MPs as colleagues and equals. He didn't condition his thoughts on Jo Cox's murder according to his views on her politics, and I am inclined to extend him the same courtesy.
posted by automatronic at 1:55 AM on October 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
He didn't condition his thoughts on Jo Cox's murder according to his views on her politics, and I am inclined to extend him the same courtesy.I hope the room he wrote that in was big enough for him and the fascist, racist, brexit supporting stochastic elephant.
posted by fullerine at 3:16 AM on October 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
"...we should stop dehumanising and assuming the worst of our opponents. Most of us will think Boris Johnson is the wrong choice for prime minister. But is he really a fascist? Is he actually human scum? Are all Brexit voters racist? We should all challenge people on our own side who dehumanise those we disagree with. It creates an environment that, even if inadvertently, is conducive to violence."
From Brendan Cox's Guardian article.
posted by Kiwi at 5:30 AM on October 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
From Brendan Cox's Guardian article.
posted by Kiwi at 5:30 AM on October 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
But is he really a fascist?
Yes, acting close to it.
Is he actually human scum?
Yes, closer than virtually anyone else I can think of.
Are all Brexit voters racist?
Yep, it was pretty much entirely a choice made through racism.
posted by ambrosen at 12:28 PM on October 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yes, acting close to it.
Is he actually human scum?
Yes, closer than virtually anyone else I can think of.
Are all Brexit voters racist?
Yep, it was pretty much entirely a choice made through racism.
posted by ambrosen at 12:28 PM on October 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
mfer really just named two things exclusive to humanity and one that literally included the word "human" and calls it "dehumanising"
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:41 PM on October 20, 2021
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:41 PM on October 20, 2021
Yes, acting close to it.
in other words, no
you’d have a better argument with priti patel and even she’s got a way to go before she’s on a level with collett, zemmour, meloni and the like
Yep, it was pretty much entirely a choice made through racism.
the fact that it’s simple and feels good to say doesn’t make it true
posted by inire at 4:31 PM on October 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
in other words, no
you’d have a better argument with priti patel and even she’s got a way to go before she’s on a level with collett, zemmour, meloni and the like
Yep, it was pretty much entirely a choice made through racism.
the fact that it’s simple and feels good to say doesn’t make it true
posted by inire at 4:31 PM on October 20, 2021 [1 favorite]
Well the first response to my post was predictable; it could have written itself.
I was hoping for more than glib replies to an article by the widower of Jo Cox, who has probably thought about this issue more than most of us, and (I assume) someone who has dealt with feelings of hatred with the likes of Johnson and his weaponizing of patriotism.
Glegrinof, what do you mean by mfer?
posted by Kiwi at 11:28 PM on October 20, 2021
I was hoping for more than glib replies to an article by the widower of Jo Cox, who has probably thought about this issue more than most of us, and (I assume) someone who has dealt with feelings of hatred with the likes of Johnson and his weaponizing of patriotism.
Glegrinof, what do you mean by mfer?
posted by Kiwi at 11:28 PM on October 20, 2021
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There's something particularly horrible about stabbing a man to death, it seems to me. I hope that his family can find some peace, as difficult as that seems to imagine at the moment.
posted by Alensin at 8:19 PM on October 15, 2021 [6 favorites]