Pentagon busily ruining the credit ratings of service personnel.

August 20, 2002 12:48 PM

Pentagon busily ruining the credit ratings of service personnel. "Hapless" military personnel are ordered to use a government-issued credit card for travel expenses, then submit for reimbursement. But the reimbursements (and even paychecks) frequently come late, making the soldier unable to pay the credit card bill -- thus branding them as "delinquents", "credit risks" and even causing their wages to be garnished.

"U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan have found themselves stranded in the desert without a dime because their credit was suddenly cut off, according to a May 29 report in the Military Times, leaving families behind in a nasty Catch-22: Swallow the debt, or borrow more money to pay the bills so their credit wouldn't be ruined."

It truly gives one the warm fuzzies to see that our government and military leaders give our service personnel the respect they deserve.
posted by chuq (48 comments total)

If Gore were president, this would be his fault and cause for impeachment. Since it's Bush, I'm sure it's just a small problem blown out of proportion.
posted by jragon at 12:54 PM on August 20, 2002

"Hang on, help is on the way!" -GWB
posted by nofundy at 12:59 PM on August 20, 2002

I've worked for several companies who behave the same way. I mean, we wanted the government to run more like a business, right?
posted by hob at 12:59 PM on August 20, 2002

Why should they be immune from the economic crunch the country is facing. Lots of people here are being laid off, getting bankrupt cuz they cant pay their bills and have their 401K plans slashed by 50% or more.
posted by adnanbwp at 1:01 PM on August 20, 2002

Why should they be immune from the economic crunch the country is facing.

Because the rest of the country aren't being forced to float their employers an interest-free loan, that's why.

Sheesh.
posted by chuq at 1:02 PM on August 20, 2002

In an additional perspective, an Air Force mechanic lets loose with quite a rant about the GTC (with lots of, ah, colorful language that might not be work-safe). Thanks to Mary for sending me the link.
posted by chuq at 1:05 PM on August 20, 2002

What hob said. Welcome to the reality of Accounts Payable.
posted by UncleFes at 1:11 PM on August 20, 2002

I think I know where Karyn should consult at!

I can see it now... SaveLtNewman.com, SaveCorporalDawson.com, SavePvtFirstClassWilliams.com... etc, etc...
posted by tittergrrl at 1:14 PM on August 20, 2002

Are these the same military personnel who used their DoD-issued credit cards to rack up millions of dollars in lap dances, alcohol, and other similar national-security-related purchases, as detailed in the news not so very long ago?
posted by briank at 1:21 PM on August 20, 2002

{sarcasm}I'm sure many soldiers, having been entirely brainwashed through years of training, must wake up one day and think to themselves:

"Wait, why am I risking my life and killing people to secure the financial well-being of the richest 5% of my fellow citizens running this country?"{/sarcasm}

In all seriousness, I'm sure soldiers, like every other workingman or workingwoman in our country, are far too preoccupied with worrying about the loan on their SUV, choosing which antidepressant to take, or deciding how to invest in anything but the corrupt U.S. stock market to step back and look at the big picture. And for those of us who do step back and look at the big picture, what the fuck can we possibly do about it at this point?
posted by zekinskia at 1:22 PM on August 20, 2002

Whoops, forgot a link.
posted by briank at 1:23 PM on August 20, 2002

Are credit cards really that useful in Afghanistan? If you're stranded in the desert on the other side of the world, I can't imagine having a little piece of plastic is much of a consolation.
posted by mogwai at 1:24 PM on August 20, 2002

Actually, Briank, I think these are the little people, you know, the enlisted dudes who make about $15k/year base, before taxes?
posted by SpecialK at 1:25 PM on August 20, 2002

mogwai - Tell that to a guy who wants to fly home and can't, cuz he can't pay for his plane ticket because his government credit card got cut off.
posted by SpecialK at 1:26 PM on August 20, 2002

This is just personal experience, but when I was in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia for six months(in the military), a single letter to the credit card/phone company was enough for them to defer my payments indefinitely. In some cases my debt was forgiven on the spot. Of course that was 10-11 years ago, so the situation might be different.
posted by patrickje at 1:26 PM on August 20, 2002

And for those of us who do step back and look at the big picture, what the fuck can we possibly do about it at this point


revolution ?

posted by larry_darrell at 1:33 PM on August 20, 2002

Of course that was 10-11 years ago, so the situation might be different. - patrickje

*looks at stock market* Hmmm, yes, I think it's definitely a little different now...
posted by zekinskia at 1:34 PM on August 20, 2002

patrickje: Which letter?

Q?
posted by ODiV at 1:35 PM on August 20, 2002

I'm with Mogwai... Stranded in the desert where the only thing between you and getting to a more comfortable place is a credit card authorization? Please, I worked for a major credit card company and with every business trip had to float over 2,000 on my own cards (issued by the provider I worked for) for months before payment. This story sounds a bit whiny.
posted by bmxGirl at 1:37 PM on August 20, 2002

bmx - You're right, the story does sound very whiny, but the card still seems like a bad idea.
posted by SpecialK at 1:43 PM on August 20, 2002

After preview thought - Don't dish on the little people though, which is what I was trying to get across above. Probably ain't their fault.
posted by SpecialK at 1:44 PM on August 20, 2002

It seems to me that any time a business, or the government, for that matter, wants you to take out a credit card in your name to pay for business expenses, they do so in order to make you shoulder the burden of dealing with problems. That seems particularly employee-unfriendly, and frankly, I'd consider finding a different employer.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 1:49 PM on August 20, 2002

Whiny!?

1. The Pentagon insists soldiers get a Government Travel Card (GTC).
2. A soldier uses the card for duty-related expenses, including expensive travel.
3. 61% of the time, the Pentagon does not reimburse the soldier within a month.
4. The soldier (perhaps earning as little as $11,000) is forced to make payments on their GTC, which is attached to their credit rating.
5. When the soldier can or does not make payments, the Bank of America shouts, and shuts off access to credit, sometimes leaving them stranded in Afganistan -- this is not a hypothetical situation, this happened.
6. At the request of the bank, the Pentagon starts garnishing the wages of said soldier, thereby putting a huge black mark on their credit record, for the sake of expenses incurred on behalf of their employer — the Pentagon.

Pardon me, but this is unfair in every sense of the word. I wouldn't be whining, I'd be busting faces.
posted by o2b at 1:59 PM on August 20, 2002

I have one of these cards!!

I havn't used it yet due to the fact it has something to do with traveling expenses and reimbersment and whatnot and also due to the fact that I hate owing money to anyone. But, hey, the seem to be standard issue or something.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 2:02 PM on August 20, 2002

monju_bosatsu: Like who?

I've worked for:

The George Washington University
Apple Computer
Time Warner-Turner
The New York Times
Random House

and this way of dealing with expenses is SOP everywhere. The *good*places either let you use your own card or gave you a Visa/MC so you could float the expense, the *bad* places forced you to use an AmEx, so you would have to pay all $8000 for that biz trip in 30 days or less or face a negative credit rating.

My wife has a perfect credit rating except for multiple write ups from Amex because someone in her company wouldn't get off their ass and issue an expense check on time and she didn't have a spare $5000+ dollars to pay for her biz trips. When she leased a car she was nearly declined because of this. And when you are trying to rent in Manhattan everything counts.

I work as a Senior Sysadmin and I try to dodge training,etc. because of this issue but I still have to travel at least once a year and it looks like this year I mighthave to visit 30+ remote sites *twice.* That's a lot of receipts.
posted by n9 at 2:03 PM on August 20, 2002

the article also mentions a good point:

Government personnel are being forced to enter into a private contract with the Bank of America.

It is very illegal to force anyone into a private contract.
posted by o2b at 2:06 PM on August 20, 2002

Stryker brought this up a while ago.
posted by revbrian at 2:16 PM on August 20, 2002

o2b - I said, the ARTICLE sounded whiny. Not the servicepeople. I was defending the servicepeople.

This is from the Village Voice after all, which is a rather liberal weekly if I remember correctly. If they're anything like Willamette Week here in Portland is, they put these 'investigative' reports in there so that businesspeople read them over their lattes and bagels at breakfast and shake their heads at where our government is going, and why we shouldn't support a corrupt bunch of stupidity, etc.

I don't like this either; it'll probably be shown to be illegal after a while and it'll slowly die a quiet death.
posted by SpecialK at 2:19 PM on August 20, 2002

Government personnel are being forced to enter into a private contract with the Bank of America.

It is very illegal to force anyone into a private contract.

I never thought about. I need to ask admin why I'm forced to side with Bank of America. As said, I hate credit cards, but love my NFCU debit card.

The soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen here really are getting suckered.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 2:22 PM on August 20, 2002

Whoa, and I thought *I* had credit problems...

What a freakin scam. This is horrible.
posted by beth at 2:25 PM on August 20, 2002

stankow had some interesting points to make in this thread about Army issued credit cards. The problem is that travel expenses need to be reimbursed somehow, and the process can be lengthy, bureaucratic, and a pain in the ass. The credit cards are supposed to be more convenient, but there is a dual reason for gov't issued credit cards. Like a special Shell Gasoline Visa, I believe the company sponsoring the card gets a cut from every transaction. So does the DoD. Sounds a little screwy, don't ya think?

Unfortunately, there are instances where soldiers put things on the card that aren't travel expenses (like lap dances), and he won't pay for them. The goverment shouldn't pay for everything put on the gov't cards, and the Bank of America swallows unclaimed expesnses (if they can't take it out of the soldiers paycheck, for some reason).

I have filed travel vouchers before, and it is a royal pain in the ass. It took me a month to get reimbursed for about 54 dollars in expenses. I can't imagine how it is for the soldiers who have a few thousand bucks on the card and are waiting for the stupid forms to be processed and the check to be sent out.
posted by insomnyuk at 2:25 PM on August 20, 2002

this way of dealing with expenses is SOP everywhere.

It's very easily resolved in a corporate environment. Simply inform your employee that you don't have a credit card and don't plan on getting one because (a) you don't believe in carrying consumer credit or (b) your credit is so poor no one will issue you a card. Problem solved. The situation with the military personnel is not comparable because they are being ISSUED the cards by the military and forced to use them to cover unavoidable expenses.
posted by rushmc at 2:26 PM on August 20, 2002

The U.S. Gov't [GWBush, et al.] wants to make sure big business no longer does business the way Enron, Worldcom, and now AOL have.

They should lead by example. Novel idea to me.

Maybe they should look into how the the largest organization in the U.S. [you know, the U.S. Gov't] does business and eliminate the double standard.
posted by john_lustig at 2:30 PM on August 20, 2002

I really hate to hear this crap. Welcome to government outsourcing.
posted by Pressed Rat at 2:53 PM on August 20, 2002

I commented on this-www.metafilter.com/mefi/18529#306958.
Lord Chancellor-
You are right about NFCU-they are great! (I'm Army, so I really am a rare member...(NSRR)).
The way credit debt is dealt with the problem. Service members should only have any delinquencies reported to their credit records only after they leave the military. The debt should only be acted on by the SM (service members) command. They would act in a much more timely and fundimental way, which would ensure that debt was repaid (this would include garnishment of wages, if the CO authorized it). The fact that a serving service members credit history has anything to do with her or his ability to carry out the mission at hand is ridiculous.

For the "screw'em" posters-try one day in the shoes (or boots) of "PVT Snuffy". These guys and gals work hard. They don't think about the card as an "expense account".

chug-thanx
posted by mcchesnj at 3:08 PM on August 20, 2002

61% of the time, the Pentagon does not reimburse the soldier within a month.

Not defending the government's actions here, but I wonder if any of that 61% is due to the soldier filing the paperwork late? I've seen this same system at many companies and the bulk of late reimbursements could be traced to the employee not filing for recompense in a timely fashion.

BTW, the article attributed the 61% figure to the California National Guard, not the Pentagon.
posted by joaquim at 4:05 PM on August 20, 2002

rushmc: Simply inform your employee that you don't have a credit card and don't plan on getting one because ... (b) your credit is so poor no one will issue you a card.

I'm assuming you meant employer, not employee, rush, but chances are, your employer wouldn't buy it anyway. I mean, what major corporation is hiring these days without running a credit check first? And given that you're not likely to be hired if your credit is that bad or you're in hock up to your eyebrows (eliminating your "I don't believe in personal debt" excuse) what employer wouldn't consider this a material lie sufficient for termination, especially if you're using it to try to get around their policy regarding reimbursements and travel, travel being an essential part of your job. I'm afraid that there's probably not a good way to get around such reimbursement schemes.

Meanwhile, the whole tying of a government-required expense card to the personal credit ratings of the soldiers involved sounds to me like a great violation of the law. So who, exactly, does a soldier turn to when he's being forced into a contract that flies in the face of statute?
posted by Dreama at 4:31 PM on August 20, 2002

Yes, I meant "employer."

The point is, no employer can compel you to participate in any credit program. They can provide you with a company card if they wish you to charge business expenses on it, but you are entirely within your rights to decline to use your personal credit on their behalf, for any reason you like.
posted by rushmc at 4:59 PM on August 20, 2002

So who, exactly, does a soldier turn to when he's being forced into a contract that flies in the face of statute?

Class-action lawsuit if it got big enough.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 5:02 PM on August 20, 2002

SpecialK - $15k/year base, before taxes?

I believe government employees don't pay taxes and that's 15k with room/board and meals in most cases. Plus Hazard Pay when applicable.

Dreama - I've never had a credit check as part of employment conditions. Sounds kooky to me.
posted by Nauip at 5:08 PM on August 20, 2002

Dreama - I've never had a credit check as part of employment conditions. Sounds kooky to me.

What seems kooky to me is not that some employer would seek this sort of information from a job applicant (they'd get your medical history and any other info they could, were it up to them), but that anyone with any self-respect would capitulate and provide it.
posted by rushmc at 5:19 PM on August 20, 2002

I believe government employees don't pay taxes

Hah, ha ha. . .. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Sorry, but as Petty Officer 2nd Class in the U.S. Navy I must disagree with you there. We always pay federal taxes. There are a few states that don't make you pay taxes while in the military, but that's not many. I pay both.

Room/Board/meals is arbitrary. On a submarine, your room and board consists of a small little bunk and the process of hotracking is common; where you share the bed with someone. When you are on watch, he's asleep and visa versa.

However, yes, the military does give an allotment if you live out in town (only if you can't live in the barracks) and one for food. (likewise, if you can't eat at the galley)

Not to crash on the military or anything, just wanted to make things clear.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 5:29 PM on August 20, 2002

I got out of the USAF in '97. Prior to leaving, they (AF/MWR) had combined the NCO club member card with a Visa card. So, if you wanted to go to the club, you had to join, which meant getting a CC. I bailed on that one. I also resisted the AMEX card. I doubt very much that it is required, but more likely it is an option. I used my own CC if I had to. I saw a few idiots get in some heat over stereo equipment and such on their gov't cards.
Thank god for all my other pays though, HALO, Scuba, Pro pay, would have been broke without them. Base pay for enlisted is terrible.
posted by a3matrix at 5:34 PM on August 20, 2002

Ah, so you're military, a3matrix. Your comments on the Houston K-Mart roundup make so much more sense now. Do you try to be stereotypical, or does it come naturally?
posted by goethean at 6:07 PM on August 20, 2002

*reads previous post mentioned*
Stereotypical. . . ? Huh, for being in the miltary? Whats the stereotype of the military? How does he prove it correct?
posted by Lord Chancellor at 6:16 PM on August 20, 2002

While in the military you get your credit ruined. When you leave the military your VA benefits become somewhat less than beneficial. Dangerous work for little pay and a thankless VA. Where do I sign up?
posted by nofundy at 5:14 AM on August 21, 2002

Come on goethean, you can do better than that post of mine. I have done far worse trolling than that. Hell that one was tame, even by the most conservative standards.

nofundy: My credit came through unscathed during my stint in the service. It is unfortunate that these cards get put into the hands of people who don't seem to know how to manage their use.

That being said, military members get paid poorly. I garnered much extra pay due to my position in the service, without the extra $$ I would have been damn near poverty.
posted by a3matrix at 5:36 AM on August 21, 2002

I mean, what major corporation is hiring these days without running a credit check first?

What on earth is this? I've never heard of any such practice. None of my employers have ever done anything that invasive; I'm offended at the very idea. My private life is none of my employer's business.

What companies do you have in mind here, Dreama? How on earth do they justify looking into your credit, of all things?
posted by Mars Saxman at 11:54 AM on August 21, 2002