August 24, 2002

11:02 AM

US terror suspect 'beaten in custody', says the BBC. The US gov't claimed there was a massive amount of evidence to link him to Al-Queda. Now, after 11 months of being held in solitary confinement without access to a lawyer and allegedly being beaten, he has been charged with having crossed the US border illegally in the past (he was living in Toronto when he was arrested).
posted by 4easypayments (29 comments total)

"He's got an arabic sounding name and I ain't like his face...quick, detain 'im!"

"What shall we charge..."

"Do it!"

"Yes, Mr. Ashcroft"
posted by ac at 11:39 AM on August 24, 2002

Attention other nations:

Please invade us. We need a regime change here in the US.
posted by DragonBoy at 11:49 AM on August 24, 2002

I feel ill.
posted by donkeyschlong at 12:05 PM on August 24, 2002

My brain is not functioning any more, I forget a lot ...
I never would have guessed.
posted by aptain_quirk at 12:49 PM on August 24, 2002

This'll teach those canadian border jumpers a lesson.
posted by fatbobsmith at 1:20 PM on August 24, 2002

Odd how this is presented tho - when the suspect says he's innocent, and has been beaten, this is portrayed as a fact, while when the government says they have pretty serious evidence against him, it is called a "claim".

Yep. Sounds like there's absolutely no good reason to hold him. It's just that damn Ashcroft unjustly imprisoning him because he has an Arab sounding name. Naturally, the attempts to sneak into the US, the assault charges, the fake ID's and calls to Al-Qaeda, and the money transfers were just part of his humanitarian work.

"January 2001 - Al-Marabh claimed to have re-entered Canada sometime in late January, but refused to say by what method or means.
June 27, 2001 - Al-Marabh attempted to enter the U.S. at the Queenston-Lewiston Bridge by concealing himself in the back of a tractor-trailer.
-------------------------------------
Al-Marabh's life also took him to Boston where he pleaded guilty to assault and battery with a dangerous weapon in December 2000. Al-Marabh had stabbed his roommate in the knee during an argument in May. He received a suspended sentence of six months, but failed to comply with the terms of his probation and a warrant was issued for his arrest.
-----------------------------
Al-Marabh was detained after police raided an apartment near Chicago. Three of the men he lived with had once worked at the Detroit Metropolitan airport and had retained their ID badges. In addition to a diagram of an airport runway, police also found an extensive stash of phony documents inside the apartment.
------------------------------
The money trail also led investigators to al-Marabh. A published report said an unemployed al-Marabh managed to move about $15,000 US through a Canadian bank account in the days leading up to the attacks. The report suggests funds were transferred to at least three men involved in the suicide hijackings.
---------------------------------
Telephone records examined by investigators show that al-Marabh exchanged phone calls with at least two of the suicide hijackers who were also alleged to be al-Qaeda operatives. Canadian police were able to review records for the six years that al-Marabh lived in Toronto.
--------------------------------
Al-Marabh was deported from Canada in 1995, but he re-entered illegally in January 2000. He was caught at the border with a fraudulent Canadian passport and citizenship card during the summer of 2001. After being released on bail, he failed to show up for immigration proceedings that September and fled to the United States. "
posted by MidasMulligan at 1:46 PM on August 24, 2002

Don't worry, we abuse our own citizens too. No special treatment in that regard.
posted by homunculus at 2:00 PM on August 24, 2002

"Brian Schmautz, spokesman for the Portland Police Bureau, said protesters threw things at the police.
Protesters at one point pushed down a barricade and a female police officer who was standing behind it, police spokesman Henry Groepper said. The officer sprained or broke her wrist falling down, and two patrol cars were damaged, Groepper said."

Yep. That's abuse alright. How dare the police take any action. In fact, how dare they be there at all? Don't they know protesters should be able to do anything they want, anytime they want, anywhere they want? And that police that have the audacity to try to get the President and his audience to a function without being harassed are, by definition, "abusive"?
posted by MidasMulligan at 2:19 PM on August 24, 2002

MidasMulligan -- I call them 'claims' because now that it is time for him to stand trial, and while the government has every reason to use all evidence against him in prosecution, he is only being charged with immigration violations. One must assume that most of the evidence linking him to terrorism must have proven so untrustworthy that it couldn't even have been used to bring an indictment, much less a conviction.
posted by 4easypayments at 2:26 PM on August 24, 2002

Wasn't this story already used up during the
kuro5hin pledge drive?
posted by neu at 2:34 PM on August 24, 2002

How dare the police take any action. In fact, how dare they be there at all? Don't they know protesters should be able to do anything they want, anytime they want, anywhere they want?

Silly MM: that only happens when the GOP organises the riots.

As for this bloke: he's not the first of the Arab round-up to be charged after months of detention with nothing more than immigration offences. So, either the 'evidence' was flimsy because there was no terrorist case to bring, or because those investigating are incompetent. (So all of that timeline never actually got corroborated in court.) That's enough to raise questions, without even discussing his treatment in prison.
posted by riviera at 2:40 PM on August 24, 2002

Midas Mulligan:

" Odd how this is presented tho - when the suspect says he's innocent, and has been beaten, this is portrayed as a fact, while when the government says they have pretty serious evidence against him, it is called a "claim"."

Well, yes. That's because of a wonderful concept called "innocent until proven guilty." It goes great with a side order of "being told what the charges against you are".
posted by danhon at 3:37 PM on August 24, 2002

Odd how this is presented tho - when the suspect says he's innocent, and has been beaten, this is portrayed as a fact, while when the government says they have pretty serious evidence against him, it is called a "claim".

How exactly did 4easypayments portray the suspect's claim of beatings and/or innocence "as a fact," MidasMulligan? S/he made sure to put "says the BBC" in the first line -- which not all posters do -- used quote marks to indicate the beating claim came from the suspect, described the beating with the word "allegedly" and even presented us the government's side of the story in two extra links. You see that as an unfair presentation? Hmm. Someone's overstating things here, but it's not 4easypayments.

While he's obviously at least a minor crook, I don't have a clue if al-Marabh is a terrorist. Here are three possible explanations off the top of my head:

1. al-Marabh was an active member of the terrorist cell behind the 9/11 attacks and knew mass murder was planned

2. al-Marabh was friendly with the men behind the attacks, knew nothing of their plans and did them a clearly illegal but not murderous favor by moving the $15,000 for them

3. al-Marabh was an unsavory lowlife immigration hustler who moved in similar circles as others involved in passport and ID scams, but isn't a Wahabist terrorist

Only one of those deserves solitary confinement, determined by a trial. Please, MidasMulligan, imagine President Hilary Clinton with the power to indefinitely detain someone without charges or a lawyer. Whatever it takes to wake you up to the fact that this isn't "the sky is falling" anymore.
posted by mediareport at 4:41 PM on August 24, 2002

Well, I can see why he keeps trying to sneak in to the US - I mean, do you think that convenience store employees in Canada have enough money lying around that they can just send off $15K to a terrorist they don't really know?

He's already crossed the border twice. This isn't the last we've heard of this guy.
posted by swell at 7:14 PM on August 24, 2002

Only one of those deserves solitary confinement, determined by a trial. Please, MidasMulligan, imagine President Hilary Clinton with the power to indefinitely detain someone without charges or a lawyer. Whatever it takes to wake you up to the fact that this isn't "the sky is falling" anymore.

Terribly sorry. The sky practically did fall on me. I ran through falling debris - and now know what a human body looks like when it hits the ground from 100 stories up. To those in the immediate disaster zone of 9/11, this stuff is not just concepts.

This guy sounds as though he is anywhere from slightly to deeply involved those events. I fear that if my government is inclined to make certain they take all the time they need to make a case - and is justifiably nervous about someone with a record of not showing up for hearings ... well ... all I can feel is ... good.
posted by MidasMulligan at 9:51 PM on August 24, 2002

>I ran through falling debris

Which makes you special and right how, precisely?

>To those in the immediate disaster zone of 9/11, this stuff is not just concepts.

Which means for everyone else on the planet, this stuff is just concepts? Intellectual chewtoys? You'll have to do better than that.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:35 PM on August 24, 2002

Regardless of other charges, he has plead guilty to the immigration charges -- though the judge in the case was angry he wasn't told of the government's extensive interest in his other activities, and has delayed sentencing.
posted by dhartung at 11:56 PM on August 24, 2002

Well Midas. Al-Marabh plotted < /juryless sarcasm> to have those buildings attacked. That's alot to live with too. Imagine how he feels. Which means???

Nothing as far as this thread is concerned. Who cares. In and of the context of your experience 9-11 and especially your proximity to it there is a time and a place for your horrible memories and recollections. It smacks of opportunism, not too unlike the capitalistic business being done, that presumably you did, in or near the twin towers.

Do I have a case against roll bars on jeeps (or shit, why stop there?), because I watched a girl's chest get crushed by one?

Obviously nothing at all against your trauma and I know your lapse into your 9-11 experience was obviously for effect, but. . .

I assume you see the point. I do see yours.
posted by crasspastor at 1:15 AM on August 25, 2002

This guy sounds as though he is anywhere from slightly to deeply involved those events.

Well, once 'sounding like' becomes the equivalent of 'beyond reasonable doubt', you'll know that the terrorists have won.

though the judge in the case was angry he wasn't told of the government's extensive interest in his other activities, and has delayed sentencing.

Which is just a little outrageous: the judge decides to reassess sentencing based on a Google search for the accused's name? Talk about guilt by association. It makes it a lot easier to hide an incompetent prosecution case if you can get someone to admit, say, that they've been driving around with one brake light, and get the judge to find, after searching the internet, that they've been described as a mass murderer:

"The media articles are whatever they are," Gromis told the judge. "The government is not prepared at this time to make any contentions that Mr. al-Marabh has any involvement with terrorism or terrorist groups."

Well, that's nice: and I'm sure the prosecutors had nothing at all to do with those 'media articles'. Which will be a great relief to those people held since September who are placed in a situation of pleading guilty to minor immigration charges or spending another few months in solitary.
posted by riviera at 3:12 AM on August 25, 2002

"Whatever it takes to wake you up to the fact that this isn't "the sky is falling" anymore."

I'm glad your on the case...any new news from the justice leauge?
in almost any country, these detainees would have been tortured then killed and thier families. If any of you have a problem beyond this idiot getting popped in the eye, then just move away, go away and die in someone elses country. and crass and others who poo-poo someone elses experiences?, well i can almost guarantee that those people have not been through a traumatic event. this is almost evident because these people mention it..."oh, so what, you saw the tower fall, so what you saw your buddy blowup by a communist grenade." Your the pathetic lot; downplaying others experience, like theft, you deny someone something because YOU could never have the courage to recover from it. And i hope im wrong. perhaps crass was raped or stavs caught some shrapnel from a landmine, lost a child. Today is the date my uncle was shot down over germany. spent 9 months in 3 different lagers. I feel humble not to have gone through what he did. He was beaten, starved, watched friends die. he got a few news articles written on him, about his experience.
Do I have a case against roll bars on jeeps (or shit, why stop there?), because I watched a girl's chest get crushed by one?

terrorists roll your jeep? (yeah, fuck you too)

i am ashamed today.
posted by clavdivs at 9:14 AM on August 25, 2002

How does witnessing 9-11 make you right about anything?
posted by Slimemonster at 1:09 PM on August 25, 2002

I can't believe you actually just tried that, MidasMulligan. You don't have a clue about the nature of any personal emotional connections I might have to the events of September 11. Got it? Good. This is hardly the place for that kind of sleazy one-upsmanship.

I'll just repeat the question you ignored: How exactly did 4easypayments portray the suspect's claim of beatings and/or innocence "as a fact?"

[Hey, insomnyuk, if you're out there: "hit-and-run posting," indeed.]

I'm starting to notice that the folks who cry most loudly about "liberal MeFi bias" frequently avoid intelligent discussion in favor of emotional outbursts and other distracting moves. I'm also starting to suspect that the "Liberal Groupthink!" criticisms, while occasionally accurate, serve most often as a cover for certain members who are frequently unable to defend their own positions.

clavdivs: The only point I could mine from the poetic mud of your post was the one about other countries. Are you really making the argument that when other countries violate the principles in the U.S. Constitution, it should convince the United States itself to abandon those principles? I have a shovel and dynamite ready for your response.
posted by mediareport at 1:47 PM on August 25, 2002

My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is that he didn't go to Midas Mulligan's house.

I suppose it's obvious that poetic justice would be MM being accused of terrorism and detained for a year while he's beaten in custody. Let me know where and when, and I'll be there with a blow torch and some pliers. Or maybe just my trusty NYPD-standard-issue 9mm broomhandle...
posted by hincandenza at 11:49 PM on August 25, 2002

guess what mediareport. i was not talking to you. (talking to noone really

Are you really making the argument that when other countries violate the principles in the U.S. Constitution, to abandon those principles whaaaa "it should convince the United States itself" what does this mean... "U.S. itself"
convinced? of what. are you saying if we have principles, these principles are subverted, the u.s. suffers, should said u.s. subvert those principles to...to what mediareport? survive? get even? play bad cop? mime? a litttle fucking soft shoe?
i got your shovel and glycerin right here.
to answear your loaded question. YES, fuck the principles if your ass is on the line. I dont think (we) are there yet. DO you?
why do you people attack midas for relating his experience.
I'm right here all day for your arguments MR.
Or maybe just my trusty NYPD-standard-issue 9mm broomhandle...
what a hair raiser. man you scare me. Me i'd take that stick and make you into a fudgesickel...NYPD issue. you a cop big guns, been shot at, took one for your buddy.

How does witnessing 9-11 make you right about anything?
geez, the so-called-liberal craze a few years back was the poetry of witness. do we know this term liberal minds? of course not. It holds that peoples' experience as witness to history (9-11, pearl harbor, JFK assassination etc.) and that there experiences are valid and importent for the rest of us. man you all picked the wrong topic cuzs' i see no wrong in MMs statement.
and you people should know i spoil for a fight, even if i lose. BRING IT ON.

I suppose it's obvious that poetic justice would be MM being accused of terrorism and detained for a year while he's beaten in custody

I'll show you poetic justice...coward
posted by clavdivs at 8:41 AM on August 26, 2002

Attention other nations:

Please invade us. We need a regime change here in the US.

Yeah, if we're "lucky" we'll be taken over by the British with their terrific record under similar circumstances. At least the four main individuals in this case were only branded as terrorists and sat in prison for fifteen years (with only one dying during the incarceration) before it was discovered that the government investigator deliberately witheld evidence supporting their alibis from the defense and then lied under oath in court on several occasions (none of the police officers involved ever had charges brought against them.) All this was done to show the public that the "terrorists" had been caught and even after the actual bomber had confessed they refused to allow the case to be reopened...

...and lets not forget that they targeted others connected to these indivduals for shorter periods of incarceration based on the main convictions - including incarcerating two teenage boys (in their early teens, I forget their exact ages) when the investigators KNEW they were all innocent.

Oh yeah - EVERY other country is so much more squared away than we are...

How does witnessing 9-11 make you right about anything?

Back when I was 17 I worked for a local ambulance company. One night we had to extract a body from a car that had caught fire. It came out in pieces which we then placed in a body bag and loaded into the back of our van. We were all calm and collected while doing our job but I then spent about 35 minutes in the weeds along a major highway puking my guts out with several 20 year veterans who had never experienced anything like it before. The stench and the sight of a cooked human body coming apart like an overcooked turkey was something I will never get out of my mind.

My point? The guy who sat home in his easy chair and read about it on the front page the next day probably had a slightly different experience than I did. In fact, I have no doubt that he doesn't even remember that it happened. For me twenty years has not dimmed the visage in my mind at all. First hand experience makes a HUGE difference in one's perception...
posted by RevGreg at 1:43 PM on August 26, 2002

First hand experience makes a HUGE difference in one's perception...

Did it make you a better judge of how to deal with cars that catch fire? I think that's the point here.
posted by riviera at 1:54 PM on August 26, 2002

(Also, it doesn't help that your first link points to a review of a fictionalised account of the Guildford Four's case, and you appear to comment on it as if it were fact. Not that the miscarriage wasn't egregious, but that's like me linking to a review of Dead Man Walking as primary evidence in an argument on the death penalty.)
posted by riviera at 2:05 PM on August 26, 2002

Did it make you a better judge of how to deal with cars that catch fire? I think that's the point here.

I'd think that not getting drunk and stopping your car IN the driving lane of a major highway to take a nap with your lights off in the middle of the night which results in your being rear-ended by a large truck would be starting point. Not idlely sitting here as a country and waiting to be a target again would be Midas' point with which I strongly agree.

In any case, such experiences certainly make you more passionate about the subjects involved.

Of course, at no point did Midas make the claim that his experience made him right, it was the assumption fo the person who replied. I took it as meaning that he felt that those who watched on TV and read it about it in the paper had a a different experience.

Of course, the statement he was replying to "Whatever it takes to wake you up to the fact that this isn't 'the sky is falling' anymore" wasn't snarky or leading in any way, now was it? Of course, the writer is correct, the sky isn't falling. It has fallen. The object now is to try to prevent the sky from falling elsewhere.

People are not perfect, mistakes will be made in the process and some people's rights will be infringed upon. How you managed to ignore this fact of existence that was here long previous to 9/11 and will exist as long as humanity walks this planet is a mystery to me. Making it out to be a product of this situation/administration is laughable...
posted by RevGreg at 2:37 PM on August 26, 2002

Also, it doesn't help that your first link points to a review of a fictionalised account of the Guildford Four's case

In which all facts pertinant to my example are correct. Dates are correct, all the ages/terms of all those incarcerated are correct, the British government implementing the "Anti-Terrorism Act" which allowed them to drag people in with no precidence is true, the method in which the information which acquitted the individuals in the end was found and exposed is correct and the fact that none of the officials involved in the cover-up were never charged is correct. I posted this source because the synopsis given was the best quick source of information that I found in a cursory search.

Your statement is like saying that one shouldn't tell somebody to watch "Pearl Harbor" or "Titanic" to get an idea of those two tragedies took place because there's a manufactured story line (not really great examples because they're WAY more "fluffy" than "In the Name of the Father.") Pearl Harbor was still attacked on December 7th and the Titanic hit an iceberg and sank. The Guildford Four were still arrested, charged and incarcerated for 15 years on superficial evidence, the acquitting information was undoubtly witheld at the instructions of the prosecution and it all was done in the name of soothing a populace frightened by terrorist activity.

You could have found a better link instead of deciding to be snarky. I and others would have appreceated that more than this now entirely off-topic bitchfest we're in...
posted by RevGreg at 2:55 PM on August 26, 2002