August 29, 2002

6:08 AM

Neighbour jailed for branding pedophile's genitals.A man attacks his two young nephews and his neighbours find out and burn him with a hot spatula as punishment. The neighbour is then imprisoned. I realise this is vigilante justice and on an intellectual level, it's wrong, but emotionally I'm finding it hard to muster much sympathy for people who attack kids and face a backlash like this. What are your reactions?
posted by Jubey (45 comments total)

This sort of police blotter news coverage is getting old, because it only aims to shock, disgust, and sell advertising. More thoughtful material about how different cultures deal with child molesters, and what, if anything works, gets buried in the social science and criminal justice literature. It would be fine with me if the shockmeister material about child sexual abuse, including this thread, disappeared.
posted by sheauga at 6:13 AM on August 29, 2002

cut off his genitals and butt-fuck him whilst disembowelling his relatives. There is no place for the type of barbarism and depravity as practised by paedophiles in the 21st century.
posted by johnnyboy at 6:23 AM on August 29, 2002

*head explodes trying to grasp the contradiction as a whole*
posted by Wulfgar! at 6:35 AM on August 29, 2002

I know i'd have trouble controlling myself if any of my family were attacked by anyone. But I think this type of eye for an eye punishment has no place in a civil society, and must be clamped down on.
posted by derbs at 6:39 AM on August 29, 2002

The judge in this case said it all:

"Justice is built on truth, process, proof, appropriate punishment and sometimes even mercy. When the justice system is placed in the hands of criminals and violent people ... the foundation of justice become emotional and personal gain."
posted by PrinceValium at 6:39 AM on August 29, 2002

cut off his genitals and butt-fuck him whilst disembowelling his relatives. There is no place for the type of barbarism and depravity as practised by paedophiles in the 21st century.

But the barbarism and depravity in butt-fucking and castrating someone, that's okay...? Look, the guy's done very very wrong and he deserves a hell of a lot of punishment and a long, long prison sentence. But sadistic torture? Come on...
posted by humuhumu at 6:39 AM on August 29, 2002

johnnyboy--who's calling whom barbaric?

I do find some small comfort in this kind of neighborhood justice. A friend's family beat the stuffing out of a neighbor that poisoned their dog. Not condoning the violence, but I certainly sympathize with the emotion behind it.
posted by mikrophon at 6:40 AM on August 29, 2002

"Justice is built on truth, process, proof, appropriate punishment and sometimes even mercy."

"The law" apparently off having a smoke somewhere.

Just for the record: Johnnyboy's kidding, you knuckleheads.

*gives Wulfgar! and humuhumu blistering noogies*
posted by UncleFes at 6:47 AM on August 29, 2002

cut off his genitals and butt-fuck him whilst disembowelling his relatives.

I can understand being enraged at this guy, but what did his relatives do to deserve your wrath? And I worry about the kind of person who could get it up for your proposed buggery fantasy. Definitely not someone I'd trust with my niece and nephews. Or to the quote the great Buddhist philosopher Sakarambo:

"When you curse someone, dig two graves."
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 6:49 AM on August 29, 2002

*finishes up with humuhumu's noogie, eyes PinkStainlessTail warily*
posted by UncleFes at 6:52 AM on August 29, 2002

Honestly, If you can accept that you'll spend 1-2 years in jail for this sort of vigilantism, it might be worth it for you. Certainly not for me personally (I wouldn't last a day in jail), but I bet the family feels a little better knowing that the pervert went through what must have been excruciating pain, and received a physical as well as legal sentence. I'm glad this happened, but I agree that the genital-branders must be punished as well. If you don't mind spending some time in jail and ruining your record, go for it.
posted by Samsonov14 at 6:53 AM on August 29, 2002

Uh, I think johnnyboy's irony flew past a few people. I also think it's reasonable to be concerned that someone who'd repeatedly torture another person's genitals might lose control again. Who'll be his next victim? Someone who robs him? Sending the guy to jail for a while makes perfect sense. The pedophile better get more than 8 years, though.
posted by mediareport at 6:55 AM on August 29, 2002

*Takes Fes' picture, runs away while the savage screams about his stolen soul*
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 6:55 AM on August 29, 2002

"Wuggu! Ugga wuggu duwoggu!"*

*translation: "That's it! Noogies for everyone! NOBODY takes my picture and gets away with it!"
posted by UncleFes at 6:59 AM on August 29, 2002

Those who think that people should cut off his genitals and butt-fuck him whilst disembowelling his relatives should have their genitals cut off and be butt-fucked whilst disembowelling their relatives.
posted by drgonzo at 7:01 AM on August 29, 2002

It's also worth noting that 2 of the three attackers are currently serving sentences for drug dealing and murder. Hardly the type to take justice into their own hands. Additionally, I recall from previous articles that one of the attackers was mentally retarded ... or almost there.

Ah, the heroes!
posted by magullo at 7:02 AM on August 29, 2002

*Cuts off drgonzo's genitals and butt-fucks him whilst disemboweling his relatives*

The missing of irony (by myself and others) seems to have derailed things a bit. However, and I'm actually serious here, it's a good demonstration of how terrible paedophilia is and how crazy and irrational we get whilst trying to cope with it. But this guy should still be locked up for awhile, regardless of his "just" intentions. Tryin' to have a civilization here.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 7:07 AM on August 29, 2002

drgonzo: Those responsible for sacking the people who sacked the man who was rightously sacked ... have been sacked.
posted by mrmcsurly at 7:11 AM on August 29, 2002

I'm more of a Batman than Superman kind of guy.
BUT only in a ideal world, where all crimes are cut and dry, can I accept vigilantism as an answer.

(For sake or argument.) Say this guy was not a pedophile and was just a asshole. These kids run home and claim they were assaulted. Father reacts in a knee-jerk way and now this gets sketchy.

Point Im trying to make reality is always more complex than a news report.
posted by Dr_Octavius at 7:17 AM on August 29, 2002

Say this guy was not a pedophile and was just a asshole. These kids run home and claim they were assaulted. Father reacts in a knee-jerk way and now this gets sketchy.

That's why the hot-spatula guys got the 19 months - because the motive behind the attack, though a great tool for determining WHO did the crime, should not and did not factor into the assessment of punishment for that crime.

The judge in this case did everything right, and I applaud him.
posted by UncleFes at 7:20 AM on August 29, 2002

Quoth magullo: It's also worth noting that 2 of the three attackers are currently serving sentences for drug dealing and murder. Hardly the type to take justice into their own hands.

I disagree. I think that the same inability to control impulsive behavior leads to vigilantism as easily as it leads to other forms of criminal behavior.

"When you curse someone, dig two graves."
I hadn't heard this one, but I like it very much. Thanks, PinkStainlessTail!

Incidentally, it may be of interest to some that there is an organization working to create "a standardized scale for the justice system to determine with scientific certainty which aspects of a crime represent depravity". It's called the Depravity Scale, and I found it an interesting read...
posted by atavistech at 8:14 AM on August 29, 2002

The judge in this case did everything right, and I applaud him.

I used to work in the same law firm as Judge Nanci Grant, and I can assure you that she in no way resembles a man.
posted by pardonyou? at 8:15 AM on August 29, 2002

atavistech: You might like this.
posted by frykitty at 8:22 AM on August 29, 2002

Oakland County Circuit Court Judge Nanci Grant told him while she understood his motives, she could not condone his actions.

A reaction to the abuse is probably normal, this however, was somewhat of an over reaction. Or a reaction carried too far.

That guy is lucky they didn't get more creative with their adaptation of punishment.
posted by a3matrix at 8:27 AM on August 29, 2002

Atavistech:"When you curse someone, dig two graves."
I hadn't heard this one, but I like it very much. Thanks, PinkStainlessTail!

I think it's great too, but in the interest of full disclosure this is where I heard it, Sakarambo being the character who said it. So the attribution was a wee bit whimsical.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 8:40 AM on August 29, 2002

I think the reason stuff like this happens is that pedophiles, if you go by the reports in the media, generally get a brief stay in jail and then are released without their ,um, urges being quelled. Frustration with the legal system is going to be an ever-increasing cause of vigilantism, if past trends are any indication.
posted by BGM at 8:46 AM on August 29, 2002

Am I the only one who thinks heating up a spatula and branding someone's genitals is just fucking strange?
posted by witchstone at 8:58 AM on August 29, 2002

frykitty: I knew that couldn't have been the first time that link had appeared; I guess my search-fu needs some improvement...

PinkStainlessTail: Aha, and here I was thinking that you were all wise and stuff... ;)
posted by atavistech at 9:02 AM on August 29, 2002

Am I the only one who thinks heating up a spatula and branding someone's genitals is just fucking strange?

No, you're right, it's hella odd. A soldering iron works much better, and the brands are easier to read.
posted by sacre_bleu at 9:07 AM on August 29, 2002

Theres a problem with this: In June 2001, he was convicted of sexually assaulting the two boys, and is serving an eight to 40-year prison sentence. and this "Justice is built on truth, process, proof, appropriate punishment and sometimes even mercy."

The problem is, our justice system is often too light on "appropriate punishment" and too much towards "mercy!"8 years. 8 YEARS for sodomizing two little boys-four years per boy. That's IT! These kids will not have even finished therapy by the time this creep is out. This bastard should be locked up for the rest of his natural born life- but he who raped 2 little boys only gets 6 1/2 more years than the guy who went "midevil on his ass."

Perhaps if people were more sure that our "justice" system acually gives our proper amounts of "justice" they might be less likely to resort to vigilantism. Our justice system goes so much out of its' way to protect the criminals, they often don't protect the victims as much as they should.

Go ahead...flame away ye olde pacifists....
posted by aacheson at 9:23 AM on August 29, 2002

Don't give up johnnyboy. I can't be the only one who got the joke.
posted by timeistight at 10:02 AM on August 29, 2002

timeistight, I got the joke; I just didn't find it that funny. 'Little too close to the truth and all ...
posted by Wulfgar! at 10:08 AM on August 29, 2002

aacheson: The problem is, our justice system is often too light on "appropriate punishment" and too much towards "mercy!"

Prison is an industry and as such it has limited resources. People with your attitude are everywhere in government, excepttthey prefer to attack the drug menace. When there aren't any prison resources left because of insane mandatory sentencing in regards to drug offenders (many of which are non-violent) who fill our prisons then Joe Rapist gets out earlier than expected. The problem isn't being soft on criminals, the problem is being arbitrarily hard on some crimes over others.

On top of that, the US is very weak in rehabilitation programs. Those programs cost money and the 'lets be harder on criminals' crowd don't seem to understand the simple relationship between rehab and a drop in repeat offenders. Even if they did, it seems they don't seem to care what happens in prison as long as people stay there for a long time. Repeating one's crime 8 yeas later or 20 years later doesn't really make a social difference or make make the streets any safer.

aacheson: Perhaps if people were more sure that our "justice" system acually gives our proper amounts of "justice" they might be less likely to resort to vigilantism.

There was no need to resort to vigilantism, there rarely is. These guys cared nothing for the rule of law when they pissed on due process and brutaly tortured an ex-convict. They are all criminals now. They do know that a lot of people would agree with them, as you do. Too bad the court disagreed, eh?

aacheson: Go ahead...flame away ye olde pacifists....

If you think only "pacifists" (what does this have to do with war?) care about prison reform you are sadly mistaken and ignorant of the issues to the point of defending vigilantism. That's just pathetic in my book.
posted by skallas at 10:19 AM on August 29, 2002

Repeating one's crime 8 yeas later or 20 years later doesn't really make a social difference or make make the streets any safer.

I disagree with that. Surely a recurrence rate of 20 years has a better effect than one of 8 years.
posted by HTuttle at 10:42 AM on August 29, 2002

Skallas, I agree that there isn't enough emphasis on reform and rehabilitation. Absolutely there needs to be more! I also severly disagree with the drug war. Christ, I grew up in Berkeley were the cops are told NOT to arrest people for possession of dope. The "drug war" needs to go away quickly and that money also needs to go to education and rehabilitation.

However, I do believe in long sentences for murderers, rapists, child molesters, and perpetrators of violent crimes. It would be great if it could come with great amounts of rehabilitation-so during their looooong prison stay, they could take that time to discover why they did what they did and why it's wrong, but there needs to be retribution and hopefully some deterrance in the sentences as well. If I'm a serial child molester, I don't think 8 years is going to stop me from molesting 2 little boys. If I'm their parents, there's no way I would think 8 years is sufficient justice. NO WAY.

As for my "ye olde pacifists" line, obviously you were too worked up to see I was just being silly. When I'm serious, I don't usually resort to old English... Lighten up.
posted by aacheson at 10:50 AM on August 29, 2002

Htuttle: I disagree with that. Surely a recurrence rate of 20 years has a better effect than one of 8 years.

Actually, that not a rate. The rate is something like 60-70% (offhand). It doesnt matter if it happens to my kids or grandkids, without attempts at rehab the odds are unacceptably high.

aacheson: When I'm serious, I don't usually resort to old English... Lighten up.

I'll chalk that up to the limitations of web based commications.
posted by skallas at 11:23 AM on August 29, 2002

I disagree with that. Surely a recurrence rate of 20 years has a better effect than one of 8 years.

Well, yes a recurrence rate of once every 20 years would be better than once every 8 years but that's not what skallas said. Not being as well read about what the recidivism rates are for most types of crimes I couldn't tell you what the recurrence rates are in actually but I doubt that they are anywhere near once every 20 years.

When a criminal re-offends it doesn't matter how long a time period there was between his original offense and the next time he offended. You'd still have just as many victims.
posted by machine at 11:59 AM on August 29, 2002

"When a criminal re-offends it doesn't matter how long a time period there was between his original offense and the next time he offended. You'd still have just as many victims."

Is it me, or is there a math problem in there?

If a criminal offends every 20 years, there would be about 4 victims. If a criminal offends every 4 years, there would be about 20. Assuming criminal activity starting at birth + n and going until death at 80 + n.

Or are we talking about entirely different things?
posted by websavvy at 12:07 PM on August 29, 2002

I used to work in the same law firm as Judge Nanci Grant, and I can assure you that she in no way resembles a man.

Whoops. My patriarchy is showing. My apologies.

I applaud her.
posted by UncleFes at 12:11 PM on August 29, 2002

posted by Grod at 12:14 PM on August 29, 2002

Is it me, or is there a math problem in there?

It does seem to me to work the way you say. Plus, a delay of 20 years makes the offender quite a bit older and likely less likely or at least less able to reoffend.
An offence at 20 followed by another at 40, and another at 60 (impressive gramps!) vs 20, 28, 36, 42, 50, 58 (and still younger than gramps up there).

Longer seems to work for me.
posted by HTuttle at 2:25 PM on August 29, 2002

a fine bunch all around. murder, dope dealing, child sodomy and genital torture. i understand one of the networks is looking for a 'rustically telegenic' family for a beverly hillbillies reality show...
posted by quonsar at 2:50 PM on August 29, 2002

The two little kids are this bastard's nephews! These poor boys are going to need extra therapy, I imagine. Thank goodness they got to see that some grownup men (the neighbors) cared about what happened to them and that the abuser is being made to pay.

"When the justice system is placed in the hands of criminals and violent people ... the foundation of justice become emotional and personal gain," according to Judge Grant. Well, he'll sure meet up with lots of criminals and violent people in prison! Child abusers are dealt with very harshly in prison -- he'll get what he deserves (but not nearly often enough). Maybe they'll even have access to a soldering iron "on the inside".

19 months...worth it? Yeah, just maybe.
posted by PennyPrune at 3:03 PM on August 29, 2002

Can someone tell me what is wrong with "an eye for an eye"? Go Hammurabi!
posted by ac at 6:11 PM on August 29, 2002

Jubey: I don't really have that much sypathy for people who go around branding other people's genitals either.

Wrong or right, off with his head either way.
posted by delmoi at 6:54 PM on August 29, 2002