Mar-a-Lago Raided by the F.B.I. on August 8th, 2022
August 8, 2022 4:57 PM Subscribe
Right now I am the Michael Jackson-popcorn.gif.
posted by Kitteh at 5:05 PM on August 8, 2022 [30 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 5:05 PM on August 8, 2022 [30 favorites]
They're showing helicopter footage of the place on the news, and man
That place is a dump
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:08 PM on August 8, 2022 [66 favorites]
That place is a dump
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:08 PM on August 8, 2022 [66 favorites]
August 2022
Week 1
* Kansas preserves abortion access
*Trump under DOJ investigation
* Senate passes Democratic priorities bill
* Alex Jones loses $45m suit, phone sent to 1/6 committee
Week 2
* FBI raids Mar-A-Lago
Guys, guys! My October Surprise Advent Calendar arrived two months early!
posted by reclusive_thousandaire at 5:09 PM on August 8, 2022 [113 favorites]
Week 1
* Kansas preserves abortion access
*Trump under DOJ investigation
* Senate passes Democratic priorities bill
* Alex Jones loses $45m suit, phone sent to 1/6 committee
Week 2
* FBI raids Mar-A-Lago
Guys, guys! My October Surprise Advent Calendar arrived two months early!
posted by reclusive_thousandaire at 5:09 PM on August 8, 2022 [113 favorites]
Hope they brought the Special Ops Plumbing And Document Retrieval team
posted by armoir from antproof case at 5:11 PM on August 8, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 5:11 PM on August 8, 2022 [13 favorites]
"What is the difference between this and Watergate..."
A warrant?
posted by djeo at 5:11 PM on August 8, 2022 [132 favorites]
A warrant?
posted by djeo at 5:11 PM on August 8, 2022 [132 favorites]
“Nothing like this has ever happened to a President of the United States before,” Trump said.
Interestingly, I infer very different implications from that than he does.
posted by PaulVario at 5:12 PM on August 8, 2022 [116 favorites]
Interestingly, I infer very different implications from that than he does.
posted by PaulVario at 5:12 PM on August 8, 2022 [116 favorites]
All one can do, besides enjoy the schadenfreude, is to idly wonder which kind of bullshit that statement is. I mean, there’s no way he’s telling the unvarnished truth. So, did maybe 5 guys in windbreakers show up? And he’s exaggerating for effect? Or did several vans full of forensic investigators pour into the compound and take everything that wasn’t nailed down, and he’s underselling it?
Oh, ya hate to see it.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:12 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Oh, ya hate to see it.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:12 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Also, Nixon didn't literally get his house raided by the FBI.
posted by Strange Interlude at 5:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 5:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
“They even broke into my safe!”
Drill, baby, drill.
posted by freakazoid at 5:16 PM on August 8, 2022 [129 favorites]
Drill, baby, drill.
posted by freakazoid at 5:16 PM on August 8, 2022 [129 favorites]
digging the "shitisgettingreal" tag
posted by Lyme Drop at 5:16 PM on August 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by Lyme Drop at 5:16 PM on August 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
From what I'm reading on Twitter, this raid would have been approved by AG Merrick Garland personally, and likely means that the DOJ is nearing the end of its investigation of DJT.
I can barely contain my delight that Trump's refusal to give Merrick Garland the Supreme Court seat he should have gotten led to Garland's appointment to Attorney General four years later, and to his becoming the person to prosecute him. Truly, the mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceeding fine.
posted by orange swan at 5:17 PM on August 8, 2022 [169 favorites]
I can barely contain my delight that Trump's refusal to give Merrick Garland the Supreme Court seat he should have gotten led to Garland's appointment to Attorney General four years later, and to his becoming the person to prosecute him. Truly, the mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceeding fine.
posted by orange swan at 5:17 PM on August 8, 2022 [169 favorites]
Given the whole “but her emails” thing, It would really be something if he was disqualified from future office by mishandling classified information.
posted by condour75 at 5:20 PM on August 8, 2022 [54 favorites]
posted by condour75 at 5:20 PM on August 8, 2022 [54 favorites]
YES… HA HA HA… YES!
posted by Going To Maine at 5:21 PM on August 8, 2022 [50 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 5:21 PM on August 8, 2022 [50 favorites]
He’s gotten away with so much. I don’t want to get hurt again.
posted by girlmightlive at 5:24 PM on August 8, 2022 [107 favorites]
posted by girlmightlive at 5:24 PM on August 8, 2022 [107 favorites]
August 2022
Week 1 …
Week 2 …
Plus the climate bill!
Despite being marred by a four day bout of kidney stones (since cleared!) August is shaping up pretty good for me.
posted by sjswitzer at 5:24 PM on August 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
Week 1 …
Week 2 …
Plus the climate bill!
Despite being marred by a four day bout of kidney stones (since cleared!) August is shaping up pretty good for me.
posted by sjswitzer at 5:24 PM on August 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
All his apes, gone
posted by schoolgirl report at 5:24 PM on August 8, 2022 [94 favorites]
posted by schoolgirl report at 5:24 PM on August 8, 2022 [94 favorites]
I really want to say something smart and insightful rn but all I’ve got is hahahahaaaaaa.
posted by mochapickle at 5:27 PM on August 8, 2022 [37 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 5:27 PM on August 8, 2022 [37 favorites]
The air photo of MaraLago on NYTimes.com shows a very large elevated white tube structure bending to the bldg at the lower-right. What is that?.
posted by TDIpod at 5:28 PM on August 8, 2022
posted by TDIpod at 5:28 PM on August 8, 2022
I really hope the agents were careful not to disturb any of the amazing, wonderful things he’d been building with Lincoln Logs and Duplo blocks
posted by armoir from antproof case at 5:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 5:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
very large elevated white tube structure
I think it’s a long awning for a covered walkway.
posted by mochapickle at 5:30 PM on August 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think it’s a long awning for a covered walkway.
posted by mochapickle at 5:30 PM on August 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
Dare I allow myself to get my hopes up? So far life has taught me that people in positions of power facing consequences for their actions is highly irregular.
I'd love to let myself enjoy this feeling of schadenfreude, but I've been here before.
posted by rustybullrake at 5:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'd love to let myself enjoy this feeling of schadenfreude, but I've been here before.
posted by rustybullrake at 5:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
very large elevated white tube structure
Hamberder delivery tube.
posted by darkstar at 5:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [49 favorites]
Hamberder delivery tube.
posted by darkstar at 5:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [49 favorites]
I just turned on Fox News for the first time in I don’t know how long. The first words I heard were “Hunter Biden.”
posted by girlmightlive at 5:35 PM on August 8, 2022 [49 favorites]
posted by girlmightlive at 5:35 PM on August 8, 2022 [49 favorites]
The air photo of MaraLago on NYTimes.com shows a very large elevated white tube structure bending to the bldg at the lower-right. What is that?.
Extra large plumbing for document disposal
posted by nubs at 5:36 PM on August 8, 2022 [13 favorites]
Extra large plumbing for document disposal
posted by nubs at 5:36 PM on August 8, 2022 [13 favorites]
I don't know what's going to come of this, but I am more than willing to be pleasantly surprised.
posted by tclark at 5:37 PM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by tclark at 5:37 PM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
Anyone know of other instances in which former presidents removed or held onto classified information?
I’m wondering if there’s any precedent for something like that having happened to begin with.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 5:39 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
I’m wondering if there’s any precedent for something like that having happened to begin with.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 5:39 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
If former presidents did take classified documents, I’m sure they were much more subtle about it than loading up the back of an SUV in broad daylight with a couple dozen boxes marked “Classified”, then tear-assing down the turnpike with “Top Secret”-stamped documents billowing from the open windows with Waylon Jennings playing at max volume on the radio, and then storing the boxes in plain view next to the self-serve breakfast buffet at Mar-a-Lago, where every foreign agent in residence could select a few along with their poached eggs and orange juice.
At least, that’s how I imagine this all went down.
posted by darkstar at 5:45 PM on August 8, 2022 [52 favorites]
At least, that’s how I imagine this all went down.
posted by darkstar at 5:45 PM on August 8, 2022 [52 favorites]
And on the same day ONJ died. Talk about an emotional ping-pong ball...
posted by lhauser at 5:47 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by lhauser at 5:47 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
🎉🍿🥂
posted by TedW at 5:48 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by TedW at 5:48 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
taquito sunrise and I shared a good laugh this afternoon imagining the FBI agents storming into Trump's office and finding him surrounded by boxes of stolen whitehouse pens, red-faced hammering at a Diet Coke button that he can't understand why it no longer works
posted by rifflesby at 5:51 PM on August 8, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by rifflesby at 5:51 PM on August 8, 2022 [23 favorites]
I wonder if his Secret Service detail had any sort of heads up or were they kept in the dark?
posted by Big Al 8000 at 5:54 PM on August 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Big Al 8000 at 5:54 PM on August 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
Drill, baby, drill.
The safe in question.
posted by Mitheral at 5:55 PM on August 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
The safe in question.
posted by Mitheral at 5:55 PM on August 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
FAFO MF
posted by swift at 5:56 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by swift at 5:56 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Dark Brandon rising.
posted by interogative mood at 6:02 PM on August 8, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 6:02 PM on August 8, 2022 [11 favorites]
Big Al 8000, NBC reporter Kelly O'Donnell tweeted that "The FBI notified the Secret Service that a warrant would be executed and Secret Service facilitated access to the Florida Trump property as fellow federal agents but did not take part in investigation or search."
posted by Sublimity at 6:03 PM on August 8, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by Sublimity at 6:03 PM on August 8, 2022 [14 favorites]
Just your friendly reminder that FBI director Christopher Wray was appointed by Trump.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:07 PM on August 8, 2022 [27 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:07 PM on August 8, 2022 [27 favorites]
Considering their little data management problem I wouldn't be hopeful however are SS employees in some way legally unable to testify against their protectees?
posted by Mitheral at 6:09 PM on August 8, 2022
posted by Mitheral at 6:09 PM on August 8, 2022
And the entire conservative media sphere is already decrying this as political persecution and spinning breathless narratives that the "87k IRS agents" in the inflation reduction bill are going to throw them all into camps.
posted by Room 101 at 6:10 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Room 101 at 6:10 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Good Twitter links out there??????
posted by goalyeehah at 6:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by goalyeehah at 6:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
spinning breathless narratives that the "87k IRS agents" in the inflation reduction bill are going to throw them all into camps.
Don’t threaten me with a good time.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [52 favorites]
Don’t threaten me with a good time.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [52 favorites]
tear-assing down the turnpike with “Top Secret”-stamped documents billowing from the open windows with Waylon Jennings playing at max volume on the radio
"Are you sure Hank done it this way?"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
"Are you sure Hank done it this way?"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
Good Twitter links out there??????
I actually found out about this because I saw this Ice T tweet:
"Fed's Raided Mar-A-Lago. Oh shit.... Shit's poppin off"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:16 PM on August 8, 2022 [40 favorites]
I actually found out about this because I saw this Ice T tweet:
"Fed's Raided Mar-A-Lago. Oh shit.... Shit's poppin off"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:16 PM on August 8, 2022 [40 favorites]
from a purely visceral level, WOHHOOOOO.
but
please let this not make a martyr out of this fucknozzle
please let it weaken and ideally destroy him and his cronies
PLEASE don't let this help DeSantis! He's the bigger 2024 threat imho.
posted by lalochezia at 6:19 PM on August 8, 2022 [30 favorites]
but
please let this not make a martyr out of this fucknozzle
please let it weaken and ideally destroy him and his cronies
PLEASE don't let this help DeSantis! He's the bigger 2024 threat imho.
posted by lalochezia at 6:19 PM on August 8, 2022 [30 favorites]
My fave twitter link thus far: this bountiful river of MAGA tears.
posted by Sublimity at 6:21 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Sublimity at 6:21 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
Good. Hope they found paydirt. This (brief) tweet points up an interesting supposition
18 USC § 2071 (Trump FAFO’ed with classified docs)
posted by From Bklyn at 6:22 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
18 USC § 2071 (Trump FAFO’ed with classified docs)
posted by From Bklyn at 6:22 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Seeing conservatives frothing about Hunter Biden makes me feel like I'm having a stroke. Why is the room sideways? Does anyone else smell burnt toast? What the everliving fuck is this person talking about?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [14 favorites]
No, I’d be happy to see this fucker martyred. And blubbering in tears.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 6:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 6:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
(Barron not even looking up from his Xbox)(source)
“Safe’s in the back.”
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:34 PM on August 8, 2022 [62 favorites]
Are we sure it was actually the FBI and not Benjamin Franklin Gates and his buddies trying to recover the Book of Secrets?
posted by ckape at 6:35 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by ckape at 6:35 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm thinking about searching the pantry so I can literally make popcorn because this is totally amazing.
posted by hippybear at 6:36 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:36 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Some legal context/speculation tweets from Popehat.
posted by brendano at 6:37 PM on August 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by brendano at 6:37 PM on August 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
I made a bowl of popcorn when the news broke and ate it while writing this post.
Another thing I'm enjoying about this (there are *so many* facets to this to enjoy!) is that this news story broke because TFG issued a statement about it. News outlets were basically going with the release of the statement as news because they hadn't been able to confirm it independently. Dude, if your house is being raided by the FBI, you don't go on social media and whine about it. You call the best lawyer available, and you do whatever they say to do, which for absolute certain will involve keeping your mouth shut.
posted by orange swan at 6:41 PM on August 8, 2022 [47 favorites]
Another thing I'm enjoying about this (there are *so many* facets to this to enjoy!) is that this news story broke because TFG issued a statement about it. News outlets were basically going with the release of the statement as news because they hadn't been able to confirm it independently. Dude, if your house is being raided by the FBI, you don't go on social media and whine about it. You call the best lawyer available, and you do whatever they say to do, which for absolute certain will involve keeping your mouth shut.
posted by orange swan at 6:41 PM on August 8, 2022 [47 favorites]
Except for Trump, the best lawyers he knows available are... unfortunately disbarred or otherwise occupied.
posted by hippybear at 6:44 PM on August 8, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:44 PM on August 8, 2022 [18 favorites]
Hey tried calling Rudy but the guy’s in the middle of a lobotomy reversal operation, so…
posted by armoir from antproof case at 6:46 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 6:46 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
You call the best lawyer available, and you do whatever they say to do, which for absolute certain will involve keeping your mouth shut.
I think you're forgetting his primary legal strategy, lo these past 6 years. Trump is betting that the rule of law no longer exists. If he's right, it doesn't matter that he's hired three toddlers stacked in a trenchcoat. If he's wrong, it doesn't matter anyway, because no one alive can save his orange ass.
posted by Mayor West at 6:51 PM on August 8, 2022 [36 favorites]
I think you're forgetting his primary legal strategy, lo these past 6 years. Trump is betting that the rule of law no longer exists. If he's right, it doesn't matter that he's hired three toddlers stacked in a trenchcoat. If he's wrong, it doesn't matter anyway, because no one alive can save his orange ass.
posted by Mayor West at 6:51 PM on August 8, 2022 [36 favorites]
Is it really a raid if they got a warrant and coordinated with the Secret Service? "Raid" implies things to me (e.g. agents storming the resort with drawn guns) that I don't feel happened here and I don't want to buy into the framing of Trump and his lackeys.
posted by nubs at 6:52 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 6:52 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
My husband and I have seen Die Hard dozens of times and a couple hours ago he just texted me "you ask for miracles, I give you the FBI" with no context and made me laugh so hard my kids asked what was so funny. God between Alex Jones' phone and this shit I'm wondering if I'm actually just having some lovely dream and any minute I'm going to wake up
posted by potrzebie at 6:54 PM on August 8, 2022 [65 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 6:54 PM on August 8, 2022 [65 favorites]
I'd assume that most things we call "raids" are actually warranted searches by police forces of various sorts. They might be no-knock at 3am, but cops generally don't enter private residences without a warrant or being invited in.
posted by hippybear at 6:55 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:55 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'd assume that most things we call "raids" are actually warranted searches by police forces of various sorts. They might be no-knock at 3am, but cops generally don't enter private residences without a warrant or being invited in.
Well, yeah, if you're rich and/or white.
But you know who actually gets raided in the sense of a good ol' Hollywood style FBI raid? Cartels, organized criminals, mobsters and sometimes even cults.
posted by loquacious at 7:04 PM on August 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
Well, yeah, if you're rich and/or white.
But you know who actually gets raided in the sense of a good ol' Hollywood style FBI raid? Cartels, organized criminals, mobsters and sometimes even cults.
posted by loquacious at 7:04 PM on August 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
Hey tried calling Rudy but the guy’s in the middle of a lobotomy reversal operation, so…
Not to threadjack, but apparently he's not the only Rudy who failed.
posted by gtrwolf at 7:09 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not to threadjack, but apparently he's not the only Rudy who failed.
posted by gtrwolf at 7:09 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Marc Elias: "The media is missing the really, really big reason why the raid today is a potential blockbuster in American politics": a person convicted for concealing or destroying government records is disqualified from holding political office.
posted by zeri at 7:16 PM on August 8, 2022 [60 favorites]
posted by zeri at 7:16 PM on August 8, 2022 [60 favorites]
I wonder what Hillary is doing right now.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:19 PM on August 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:19 PM on August 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
What I have never understood about white-collar/political criminals is why they *keep* the evidence. I know we're joking about him flushing documents down the toilet but like... if there were incriminating documents that could send you to prison, and *you had the documents*, wouldn't you burn them? Why didn't he just throw them into a fireplace at the White House?
posted by tzikeh at 7:24 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by tzikeh at 7:24 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
In this case, they don't even have to be incriminating to him. They just need to be government documents he is not supposed to be holding privately.
posted by hippybear at 7:27 PM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 7:27 PM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
because he is very vain and very stupid and thinks he is above everything and hey they may be worth something someday and well they were his when he was president and he's still president, all his friends tell him he still is
posted by scruss at 7:27 PM on August 8, 2022 [34 favorites]
posted by scruss at 7:27 PM on August 8, 2022 [34 favorites]
You keep the documents because you might need them. Blackmail. Account details. Knowing where the dirty money is and who you need to contact to get it.
Or you're just a packrat and just can't bring yourself to throw out notes about a criminal conspiracy.
posted by Clever User Name at 7:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Or you're just a packrat and just can't bring yourself to throw out notes about a criminal conspiracy.
posted by Clever User Name at 7:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Leverage on other people. Also, they never think they'll be investigated let alone raided (because they generally aren't) and so have completely broken OpSec.
posted by Mitheral at 7:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 7:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
Also, he might have hung onto them in order to sell them...
posted by suelac at 7:29 PM on August 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by suelac at 7:29 PM on August 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
This was a bad choice of day to start a diet!!
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 7:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 7:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Omarosa said he sometimes ate documents. Maybe he was keeping them, you know, for a snack.
posted by mochapickle at 7:35 PM on August 8, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 7:35 PM on August 8, 2022 [18 favorites]
Here’s the only song for when someone’s done a crime and absolutely is going home in the back of a divvy can. I’m doing all the claps.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:37 PM on August 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:37 PM on August 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
“They even broke into my safe!”
did Geraldo offer to help
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:38 PM on August 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
did Geraldo offer to help
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:38 PM on August 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
mochapickle: Omarosa said he sometimes ate documents.
...is this real
posted by tzikeh at 7:38 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
...is this real
posted by tzikeh at 7:38 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Trump is betting that the rule of law no longer exists.
I think the gambit is more like, “Do outrageous things. If your opponents fail to act, keep going. If they try to hold you accountable, use that as an excuse to weaponize the tools of state against your enemies at your next possible opportunity. When confronted, claim that your opponents set a precedent for what you’re doing by going after you.”
So less betting that the rule of law doesn’t exist and more actively dismantling it.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 7:39 PM on August 8, 2022 [54 favorites]
I think the gambit is more like, “Do outrageous things. If your opponents fail to act, keep going. If they try to hold you accountable, use that as an excuse to weaponize the tools of state against your enemies at your next possible opportunity. When confronted, claim that your opponents set a precedent for what you’re doing by going after you.”
So less betting that the rule of law doesn’t exist and more actively dismantling it.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 7:39 PM on August 8, 2022 [54 favorites]
Ok you guys any chance it’s Alex Jones who is suddenly squealing? Are they tight?
Meanwhile
Watergate
posted by Glinn at 7:41 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile
Watergate
posted by Glinn at 7:41 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
lawyer's lawyer
When the crimes you commit are so bad that your lawyer needs to get a lawyer.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:42 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
When the crimes you commit are so bad that your lawyer needs to get a lawyer.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:42 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Hopefully most of you haven't finished off your Alex Jones' schadenfreude pie!
posted by Ber at 7:55 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Ber at 7:55 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is great, but.... I WANT MORE!!!!
posted by Toddles at 7:56 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 7:56 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
House judiciary GOP tweet: if they can do it to president, think about what they can do to you?!?!
Minorities: You mean the things yall threaten constantly, and often do?
posted by Jacen at 7:59 PM on August 8, 2022 [46 favorites]
Minorities: You mean the things yall threaten constantly, and often do?
posted by Jacen at 7:59 PM on August 8, 2022 [46 favorites]
First they came for those who had broken 18 U.S. Code § 2071, and I said nothing...
posted by rifflesby at 8:09 PM on August 8, 2022 [50 favorites]
posted by rifflesby at 8:09 PM on August 8, 2022 [50 favorites]
why do so many of those republitweets mention the irs? this is the fbi. unrelated as far as we know so far, or do they know something?
posted by Clowder of bats at 8:17 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Clowder of bats at 8:17 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
I’m troubled by this. On the one hand, I believe Trump would absolutely take classified documents. On the other, I doubt he could or would read them.
posted by glaucon at 8:18 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by glaucon at 8:18 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
why do so many of those republitweets mention the irs? this is the fbi. unrelated as far as we know so far, or do they know something?
The IRS is getting thousands of new workers and this has been a Fox News talking point for a few days now, they just have a hard time switching gears quickly due to the breaking news
posted by ymgve at 8:18 PM on August 8, 2022 [18 favorites]
The IRS is getting thousands of new workers and this has been a Fox News talking point for a few days now, they just have a hard time switching gears quickly due to the breaking news
posted by ymgve at 8:18 PM on August 8, 2022 [18 favorites]
First they came for those who had broken 18 U.S. Code § 2071, and I said nothing...
The filk of this I just wrote ends with me saying "fuck those guys".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:24 PM on August 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
The filk of this I just wrote ends with me saying "fuck those guys".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:24 PM on August 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
There's no if or doubts that he took classified information.
"
February 22, 2022
Trump took classified material from White House to Florida, National Archives says
By Patricia Zengerle
WASHINGTON, Feb 18 (Reuters) - Former President Donald Trump took classified information to his Florida home after leaving the White House, the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration said in a letter to Congress on Friday about the 15 boxes of documents it recently recovered.
The Archives said it had informed the Department of Justice, which would handle any investigation.
"NARA has identified items marked as classified national security information within the boxes," David Ferriero, the archivist of the United States, said in a letter to Democratic U.S. Representative Carolyn Maloney, chair of the House of Representatives oversight committee."
posted by Jacen at 8:26 PM on August 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
"
February 22, 2022
Trump took classified material from White House to Florida, National Archives says
By Patricia Zengerle
WASHINGTON, Feb 18 (Reuters) - Former President Donald Trump took classified information to his Florida home after leaving the White House, the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration said in a letter to Congress on Friday about the 15 boxes of documents it recently recovered.
The Archives said it had informed the Department of Justice, which would handle any investigation.
"NARA has identified items marked as classified national security information within the boxes," David Ferriero, the archivist of the United States, said in a letter to Democratic U.S. Representative Carolyn Maloney, chair of the House of Representatives oversight committee."
posted by Jacen at 8:26 PM on August 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
i don't hold out much hope, but i do hold out a tiny hope that all the insane mirror-world hypebole that the right-wing media constantly pours out onto their thralls is slowly burning out their rage-receptors.
more likely, as their hate-consumers become more and more numb to the constantly up-amping stimuli, the hate-producers keep ratcheting up the rhetoric until those motherfuckers are goaded into broad, indiscriminate violence. they are already at the point of embracing, announcing, and proudly self-identifying themselves, "ladies and gentlemen, we are all domestic terrorists."
posted by glonous keming at 8:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
more likely, as their hate-consumers become more and more numb to the constantly up-amping stimuli, the hate-producers keep ratcheting up the rhetoric until those motherfuckers are goaded into broad, indiscriminate violence. they are already at the point of embracing, announcing, and proudly self-identifying themselves, "ladies and gentlemen, we are all domestic terrorists."
posted by glonous keming at 8:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
According to Brian Entin, Senior News Correspondent at News Nation:
"Per sources: search warrant at Mar-a-Lago was related to retention of classified docs. FBI showed up at 9am and left at 6:30pm. They were in plain clothes -- so club staff likely thought they were secret service. That is why it didn't leak earlier.
FBI did not notify secret service about raid until right before.
3 Trump lawyers showed up during the raid.
Safe referred to in Trump statement was in his office which is the old bridal suite above the ballroom. It is a hotel style safe. FBI broke it open.
FBI only took documents specifically related to search warrant -- they knew what they were looking for. Evidence will initially be taken to South Florida FBI office."
posted by orange swan at 8:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [16 favorites]
"Per sources: search warrant at Mar-a-Lago was related to retention of classified docs. FBI showed up at 9am and left at 6:30pm. They were in plain clothes -- so club staff likely thought they were secret service. That is why it didn't leak earlier.
FBI did not notify secret service about raid until right before.
3 Trump lawyers showed up during the raid.
Safe referred to in Trump statement was in his office which is the old bridal suite above the ballroom. It is a hotel style safe. FBI broke it open.
FBI only took documents specifically related to search warrant -- they knew what they were looking for. Evidence will initially be taken to South Florida FBI office."
posted by orange swan at 8:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [16 favorites]
From a former federal prosecutor: "James Comey was right when he testified that the DOJ typically does *not* prosecute cases involving the mishandling of classified material unless that material was deliberately transferred to a third party." [emphasis mine]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:30 PM on August 8, 2022 [50 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:30 PM on August 8, 2022 [50 favorites]
As I've matured (heh) I've realized that I can be overly-dramatic sometimes and have consciously dialled it back when needed. This messaging is just shrill, damaging and divisive.
Ron Fillipkowski
posted by bendy at 8:30 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ron Fillipkowski
posted by bendy at 8:30 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
We're pretty sure the guy is guilty of crimes and it's not Nazi Germany to seek the evidence.
posted by bendy at 8:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bendy at 8:33 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Today in stopped clocks: Marjorie Taylor Greene.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 8:36 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 8:36 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Garland has a wicked sense of timing too. Today is 48th anniversary of the day Nixon resigned.
posted by Billy Rubin at 8:37 PM on August 8, 2022 [34 favorites]
posted by Billy Rubin at 8:37 PM on August 8, 2022 [34 favorites]
The consensus on the right seems to be that the USA is now a third-world country. Perhaps they could move somewhere more agreeable and leave it to the rest of us peasants.
posted by adamrice at 8:39 PM on August 8, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 8:39 PM on August 8, 2022 [22 favorites]
From Tracy Walder, a former CIA SOO & FBI Special Agent:
"As a former FBI agent, this is a big deal. We didn’t execute search warrants of this magnitude/scale unless we had a mountain of cause to back it up."
posted by orange swan at 8:41 PM on August 8, 2022 [18 favorites]
"As a former FBI agent, this is a big deal. We didn’t execute search warrants of this magnitude/scale unless we had a mountain of cause to back it up."
posted by orange swan at 8:41 PM on August 8, 2022 [18 favorites]
If he could turn back time, I wonder if he would still run for President?
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 8:42 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 8:42 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
When asked about this, Biden simply needs to just say, “Law and Order.”
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:43 PM on August 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:43 PM on August 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
CherIfICouldTurnBackTime.gif
posted by hippybear at 8:43 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:43 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
they could move somewhere more agreeable
This has been a long-term stealth Hungarian immigration plan all along hasn't it?
posted by riverlife at 8:46 PM on August 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
This has been a long-term stealth Hungarian immigration plan all along hasn't it?
posted by riverlife at 8:46 PM on August 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm okay with this. I really am.
That is all.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 8:47 PM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
That is all.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 8:47 PM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
Ok you guys any chance it’s Alex Jones who is suddenly squealing? Are they tight?
Not so much squealing, but you do wonder if there was something extremely egregious and time-sensitive in the Alex Jones cell phone text dump which was turned over to the January 6th committee today: coincidental, perhaps.
posted by Rumple at 8:48 PM on August 8, 2022 [14 favorites]
Not so much squealing, but you do wonder if there was something extremely egregious and time-sensitive in the Alex Jones cell phone text dump which was turned over to the January 6th committee today: coincidental, perhaps.
posted by Rumple at 8:48 PM on August 8, 2022 [14 favorites]
I would say that Trump got enough financial and ego benefits from the presidency that any possible punishment was well worth it in his calculations.
posted by Jacen at 8:51 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 8:51 PM on August 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is the fruitiest scootin’ fruity ever.
posted by adamrice at 8:53 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 8:53 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
windbreakers? in miami? in AUGUST?
posted by dis_integration at 8:56 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 8:56 PM on August 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
they could move somewhere more agreeable
This Is America. If You Don't Like It, Leave!
posted by B3taCatScan at 8:59 PM on August 8, 2022
This Is America. If You Don't Like It, Leave!
posted by B3taCatScan at 8:59 PM on August 8, 2022
windbreakers? in miami? in AUGUST?
Please don't lump Palm Beach in with Miami. Miami has enough problems of its own without having to play host to Trumpland.
posted by wierdo at 9:06 PM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
Please don't lump Palm Beach in with Miami. Miami has enough problems of its own without having to play host to Trumpland.
posted by wierdo at 9:06 PM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it. Obedience to the law is demanded as a right; not asked as a favor.
Theodore Roosevelt
Third State of the Union Address (7 December 1903)
posted by MrVisible at 9:10 PM on August 8, 2022 [27 favorites]
Theodore Roosevelt
Third State of the Union Address (7 December 1903)
posted by MrVisible at 9:10 PM on August 8, 2022 [27 favorites]
🤜🤡🤛
posted by clavdivs at 9:12 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 9:12 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
Sometimes I wonder if the right uses the art of the left inspired by their past schemes as blueprints for their next scheme.
Your armies filled with hate
Believing your charade
Begin to suffocate
For us, it's far too late
And we are letting you get away
- Letting You, 2008
posted by pwnguin at 9:14 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Your armies filled with hate
Believing your charade
Begin to suffocate
For us, it's far too late
And we are letting you get away
- Letting You, 2008
posted by pwnguin at 9:14 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Unrelated to the FBI action, but related to Trump's document handling: photos have surfaced of torn up docs in a White House toilet clearly in his handwriting and inscribed using a Sharpie.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 9:18 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 9:18 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
Does anyone have an understanding of what's likely to happen next, timing-wise? If the search leads to some kind of charges, is that something that could take months to come out, or something we'll hear about in a few days, or what?
posted by rivenwanderer at 9:27 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by rivenwanderer at 9:27 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Omarosa said he sometimes ate documents. Maybe he was keeping them, you know, for a snack.
Trump can eat a few national secrets, as a treat.
Trump and others have been promising they'll prosecute Biden if they win back the presidency in '24, so they're not opposed to the idea of prosecuting former presidents.
posted by rhizome at 9:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [14 favorites]
Trump can eat a few national secrets, as a treat.
Trump and others have been promising they'll prosecute Biden if they win back the presidency in '24, so they're not opposed to the idea of prosecuting former presidents.
posted by rhizome at 9:28 PM on August 8, 2022 [14 favorites]
”James Comey was right when he testified that the DOJ typically does *not* prosecute cases involving the mishandling of classified material unless that material was deliberately transferred to a third party."
I was inclined to believe that any mishandling of documents was a simple mistake, because The Former Guy is a clod. But then I remembered the First Law of Donnie: It’s about the grift, it’s always about the grift.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:35 PM on August 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
I was inclined to believe that any mishandling of documents was a simple mistake, because The Former Guy is a clod. But then I remembered the First Law of Donnie: It’s about the grift, it’s always about the grift.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:35 PM on August 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
some kind of charges, is that something that could take months to come out,
That is likely. There is a shadow policy at DOJ to try to not bring charges or make any significant moves in cases that might have political baggage, 90 days before an election they try not to do anything big. I imagine that if they see a growing threat of destruction of evidence, flight, or danger to the republic, they might be inclined to speed up.
posted by vrakatar at 9:46 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
That is likely. There is a shadow policy at DOJ to try to not bring charges or make any significant moves in cases that might have political baggage, 90 days before an election they try not to do anything big. I imagine that if they see a growing threat of destruction of evidence, flight, or danger to the republic, they might be inclined to speed up.
posted by vrakatar at 9:46 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
“In early June, investigators made a rare visit to Mar-a-Lago seeking more info about material taken from the White House. The 4 officials, including Jay Bratt, chief of Counterintelligence & Export Control at DOJ, met w/ two of Trump's attorneys. Trump stopped by briefly.” — Kaitlan Collins, CNN’s Chief White House Correspondent
The Counterintelligence and Export Control Section “has executive responsibility for authorizing the prosecution of cases under criminal statutes relating to espionage, sabotage, neutrality, and atomic energy.”
posted by stopgap at 10:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [20 favorites]
The Counterintelligence and Export Control Section “has executive responsibility for authorizing the prosecution of cases under criminal statutes relating to espionage, sabotage, neutrality, and atomic energy.”
posted by stopgap at 10:13 PM on August 8, 2022 [20 favorites]
When asked about this, Biden simply needs to just say, “Law and Order.”
Dun dun
posted by bendy at 10:14 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Dun dun
posted by bendy at 10:14 PM on August 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Got him now!
posted by borges at 10:22 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by borges at 10:22 PM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
My overly-conspirated mind will need hard proof that this isn't linked directly to the contents of one Alex Emerick Jones phone data.
And my overly-television-ed mind is sure that there is a real life freaking slippy Jimmy; and that that Saul created a circumstance with glue, pink construction paper, a raspberry PI, and a wink from Hermes, where the likelihood of the cell phone contents was to be somehow own goaled to justice to make up for almost recreating the Triumvirate.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 10:41 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
And my overly-television-ed mind is sure that there is a real life freaking slippy Jimmy; and that that Saul created a circumstance with glue, pink construction paper, a raspberry PI, and a wink from Hermes, where the likelihood of the cell phone contents was to be somehow own goaled to justice to make up for almost recreating the Triumvirate.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 10:41 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Just your friendly reminder that FBI director Christopher Wray was appointed by Trump.
Last Thursday, Wray admitted to the Senate Judiciary committee that the Trump White House directed the FBI (non) investigation of the sexual assault allegations made against SC nominee Brett Kavanaugh. Wray served in the George W. Bush administration, and is a member of the Federalist Society. Wray was two years behind Kavanaugh at Yale College, and followed him to Yale Law School. They went on to be political appointees and colleagues.
Also: Trump’s 2016 campaign chair, Paul Manafort, has written a book, and to sell it, he gave a long interview to Mattathias Schwartz of Insider. In the interview, Manafort admitted what the Senate Intelligence Committee said in their report about Russian interference in the 2016 election: he gave internal polling data from the Trump campaign to Konstantin Kilimnik, who, according to the Senate report, was a Russian intelligence agent. Manafort had previously denied this story.
Also: The January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was also in the news today: CNN’s Oliver Darcy reported that two years of text messages to and from conspiracy theorist and January 5 rally speaker Alex Jones have been sent to the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol. Jones’s lawyer had inadvertently sent the messages to opposing counsel during his recent trial. ("It's been quite a day," Letters from an American, 8/8/22)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:46 PM on August 8, 2022 [28 favorites]
Last Thursday, Wray admitted to the Senate Judiciary committee that the Trump White House directed the FBI (non) investigation of the sexual assault allegations made against SC nominee Brett Kavanaugh. Wray served in the George W. Bush administration, and is a member of the Federalist Society. Wray was two years behind Kavanaugh at Yale College, and followed him to Yale Law School. They went on to be political appointees and colleagues.
Also: Trump’s 2016 campaign chair, Paul Manafort, has written a book, and to sell it, he gave a long interview to Mattathias Schwartz of Insider. In the interview, Manafort admitted what the Senate Intelligence Committee said in their report about Russian interference in the 2016 election: he gave internal polling data from the Trump campaign to Konstantin Kilimnik, who, according to the Senate report, was a Russian intelligence agent. Manafort had previously denied this story.
Also: The January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was also in the news today: CNN’s Oliver Darcy reported that two years of text messages to and from conspiracy theorist and January 5 rally speaker Alex Jones have been sent to the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol. Jones’s lawyer had inadvertently sent the messages to opposing counsel during his recent trial. ("It's been quite a day," Letters from an American, 8/8/22)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:46 PM on August 8, 2022 [28 favorites]
If if if I know ....
If the president who nominated you to the Supreme (or any) Court is in jail convicted of treason, how if in any way does that impact the legality of your own position?
If the president who signed all of your Congressional bills is imprisoned for treason, how if in any way does that impact the legality of that legislation?
Does a treasonous--convicted traitor--president lead to some sort of Constitutional "do-over"?
Or, if in fact we had a president convicted of treason, would we be forced to live with his (they would never be a woman) Supreme Court, signed bills, other appointments, and executive decisions?
posted by riverlife at 10:48 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
If the president who nominated you to the Supreme (or any) Court is in jail convicted of treason, how if in any way does that impact the legality of your own position?
If the president who signed all of your Congressional bills is imprisoned for treason, how if in any way does that impact the legality of that legislation?
Does a treasonous--convicted traitor--president lead to some sort of Constitutional "do-over"?
Or, if in fact we had a president convicted of treason, would we be forced to live with his (they would never be a woman) Supreme Court, signed bills, other appointments, and executive decisions?
posted by riverlife at 10:48 PM on August 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) promised to “conduct immediate oversight” of the Justice Department if his party takes control of the House, and instructed Attorney General Merrick Garland to “preserve your documents and clear your calendar.” -Vox
Preserve documents? Irony is dead.
posted by Jacen at 10:49 PM on August 8, 2022 [27 favorites]
Preserve documents? Irony is dead.
posted by Jacen at 10:49 PM on August 8, 2022 [27 favorites]
The Counterintelligence and Export Control Section “has executive responsibility for authorizing the prosecution of cases under criminal statutes relating to espionage, sabotage, neutrality, and atomic energy.”
So perhaps someone did further investigate the redacted findings in the Müller report?
It seems to me that the DOJ is running against the clock, and we will see something soon. And then I wonder how the Republicans will ever get down from the mountain of shit they have climbed up on.
posted by mumimor at 11:37 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
So perhaps someone did further investigate the redacted findings in the Müller report?
It seems to me that the DOJ is running against the clock, and we will see something soon. And then I wonder how the Republicans will ever get down from the mountain of shit they have climbed up on.
posted by mumimor at 11:37 PM on August 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Randy Rainbow@RandyRainbow · 6h:
It’s not a raid, it’s just a normal FBI-executed tourist visit.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:03 AM on August 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
It’s not a raid, it’s just a normal FBI-executed tourist visit.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:03 AM on August 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
In Germany, this would be unthinkable. It is generally accepted that the chancellor will take official documents with them when they leave office. Those will usually end up in party archives and not be available to the public or the federal archive that was supposed to collect them. There have been lawsuits against this practice, but to little avail.
Chancellor Helmut Kohl was infamous for the amount of files he destroyed or took with him when he left office, still held by his heirs now.
Of course we shouldn't compare pears to oranges, but I can't help feeling a bit envious right now.
posted by Ashenmote at 1:07 AM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
Chancellor Helmut Kohl was infamous for the amount of files he destroyed or took with him when he left office, still held by his heirs now.
Of course we shouldn't compare pears to oranges, but I can't help feeling a bit envious right now.
posted by Ashenmote at 1:07 AM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
Eric Trump is reporting the safe is empty. I know people will roll their eyes we should take him at face value until we know otherwise, claiming that it is empty to have it not be empty when evidence is presented will be a stretch of truth even for the Trumps.
The FBI cannot screw this up, or they'll hand Trump a huge win. I would like to believe that judge wouldn't sign an affidavit and the FBI wouldn't push for this unless they had absolutely an airtight case, but then again remember Waco? Our federal agents do not have the best track record here and have shown they can be under the influence of politics like any other institution.
Don't get me wrong I want Trump to just go away, but I'm not willing to put blinders on to make that happen. This has to be a very unbiased case without even a hint of political influence. We should hold the FBI and the judges up to a very high bar here, raiding the home of an ex-president could be the start of a very bad precedent.
posted by geoff. at 1:58 AM on August 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
The FBI cannot screw this up, or they'll hand Trump a huge win. I would like to believe that judge wouldn't sign an affidavit and the FBI wouldn't push for this unless they had absolutely an airtight case, but then again remember Waco? Our federal agents do not have the best track record here and have shown they can be under the influence of politics like any other institution.
Don't get me wrong I want Trump to just go away, but I'm not willing to put blinders on to make that happen. This has to be a very unbiased case without even a hint of political influence. We should hold the FBI and the judges up to a very high bar here, raiding the home of an ex-president could be the start of a very bad precedent.
posted by geoff. at 1:58 AM on August 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
It's not comparing pears to oranges, it's comparing bio-hazardous waste to oranges.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:16 AM on August 9, 2022
posted by From Bklyn at 2:16 AM on August 9, 2022
My overly-conspirated mind will need hard proof that this isn't linked directly to the contents of one Alex Emerick Jones phone data.
Given how everything the wingnuts do is a grift, my immediate assumption upon learning of the "accidental" release of Alex Jones' text messages and other documents was that it's a ploy to put Jones' attorney's E&O insurer on the hook for some or all of the damages awarded.
In Germany, this would be unthinkable. It is generally accepted that the chancellor will take official documents with them when they leave office. Those will usually end up in party archives and not be available to the public or the federal archive that was supposed to collect them.
This is yet another thing for which we have Nixon to thank. At this remove we often fail to grasp just how pissed off Congress and the people were and how the resulting legislation made it a lot harder for the executive branch to keep secrets. The PRA and FOIA were both direct responses to Nixon taking the bullshit to the next level.
We also forget how the culture of secrecy can be traced directly back to the atomic bomb. We didn't have FOIA before, but government didn't keep that many secrets until then. There was no such thing as a classified document. Unless it was related to ongoing military activity it was fair game if you could get somebody to disclose it. It's hard to overstate how things changed in the late 40s and again in the 70s.
posted by wierdo at 2:32 AM on August 9, 2022 [37 favorites]
Given how everything the wingnuts do is a grift, my immediate assumption upon learning of the "accidental" release of Alex Jones' text messages and other documents was that it's a ploy to put Jones' attorney's E&O insurer on the hook for some or all of the damages awarded.
In Germany, this would be unthinkable. It is generally accepted that the chancellor will take official documents with them when they leave office. Those will usually end up in party archives and not be available to the public or the federal archive that was supposed to collect them.
This is yet another thing for which we have Nixon to thank. At this remove we often fail to grasp just how pissed off Congress and the people were and how the resulting legislation made it a lot harder for the executive branch to keep secrets. The PRA and FOIA were both direct responses to Nixon taking the bullshit to the next level.
We also forget how the culture of secrecy can be traced directly back to the atomic bomb. We didn't have FOIA before, but government didn't keep that many secrets until then. There was no such thing as a classified document. Unless it was related to ongoing military activity it was fair game if you could get somebody to disclose it. It's hard to overstate how things changed in the late 40s and again in the 70s.
posted by wierdo at 2:32 AM on August 9, 2022 [37 favorites]
claiming that it is empty to have it not be empty when evidence is presented will be a stretch of truth even for the Trumps
Trump family member: Hold my coke
posted by mumimor at 2:32 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Trump family member: Hold my coke
posted by mumimor at 2:32 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
It could have always or already been empty.
posted by rhizome at 2:36 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 2:36 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
He should have been arrested on jan 6 for the attempted coup.
He should have been put in cuffs and thrown in a cell ON THAT DAY.
This is a joke. This is all bullshit. This isn't my idea of justice. The time for that was two years ago. You missed out, you let him go. YOU LET HIM GO.
BURN DOWN THE PALACE.
posted by adept256 at 3:32 AM on August 9, 2022 [18 favorites]
He should have been put in cuffs and thrown in a cell ON THAT DAY.
This is a joke. This is all bullshit. This isn't my idea of justice. The time for that was two years ago. You missed out, you let him go. YOU LET HIM GO.
BURN DOWN THE PALACE.
posted by adept256 at 3:32 AM on August 9, 2022 [18 favorites]
Omarosa said he sometimes ate documents. Maybe he was keeping them, you know, for a snack.
Now that is one way to do a high fiber diet.
posted by y2karl at 4:07 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Now that is one way to do a high fiber diet.
posted by y2karl at 4:07 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Now that is one way to do a high fiber diet.
As a former Wharton student, it only makes sense that Donald Trump learned legal maneuvers from one of Philadelphia's most diabolical masterminds.
I don't mean to be cynical but it does make me wonder whether Trump will get away with it—his mentor's been virtually untouched by the law for fifteen years and counting.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 4:09 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
As a former Wharton student, it only makes sense that Donald Trump learned legal maneuvers from one of Philadelphia's most diabolical masterminds.
I don't mean to be cynical but it does make me wonder whether Trump will get away with it—his mentor's been virtually untouched by the law for fifteen years and counting.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 4:09 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
God speed, everyone. May justice be done.
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 4:11 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 4:11 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
And then I wonder how the Republicans will ever get down from the mountain of shit they have climbed up on.
I dunno. The NRA took a lot of money from Russia to give to the Republican Party, whose people knowingly accepted it. This act of treason should have ended the GOP, the way that the end of WWII ended Nazi Germany as a political entity, but they are still here. Trump might be fucked, if the DOJ doesn't make a stupid mistake, but the GOP owns the media and I doubt they are going anywhere.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:12 AM on August 9, 2022 [22 favorites]
I dunno. The NRA took a lot of money from Russia to give to the Republican Party, whose people knowingly accepted it. This act of treason should have ended the GOP, the way that the end of WWII ended Nazi Germany as a political entity, but they are still here. Trump might be fucked, if the DOJ doesn't make a stupid mistake, but the GOP owns the media and I doubt they are going anywhere.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:12 AM on August 9, 2022 [22 favorites]
It is a hotel style safe. FBI broke it open.This is the Lock Picking Lawyer and what I have for you today is... (video is all of 1 minute 26 seconds long...)
posted by Harald74 at 4:19 AM on August 9, 2022 [15 favorites]
Matt Gaetz tweeted, “So interesting that this happens right as we are exposing undeniable criminal corruption by Hunter Biden. Weird.”
It’s like he has gone clear through irony and come out the far side without ever even noticing it.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:25 AM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
It’s like he has gone clear through irony and come out the far side without ever even noticing it.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:25 AM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
We also forget how the culture of secrecy can be traced directly back to the atomic bomb
And how did that help? Russia and the rest of the world got plans pretty much immediately afterwards and it is pretty clear that Germany was not in the position to build a nuclear bomb.
I wonder if it is better we do away with the false sense of security labeling things as classified brings. The reason we're so far ahead of the world in military superiority is because we simply spend more. We don't have to just hand over blueprints to our adversaries but simply labeling something as classified hasn't prevented bad actors from getting their hands on things they need.
posted by geoff. at 4:25 AM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
And how did that help? Russia and the rest of the world got plans pretty much immediately afterwards and it is pretty clear that Germany was not in the position to build a nuclear bomb.
I wonder if it is better we do away with the false sense of security labeling things as classified brings. The reason we're so far ahead of the world in military superiority is because we simply spend more. We don't have to just hand over blueprints to our adversaries but simply labeling something as classified hasn't prevented bad actors from getting their hands on things they need.
posted by geoff. at 4:25 AM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't have any news this morning, but here's some speculation:
What's in the Safe? (Olivia Nuzzi, New York magazine)
posted by box at 4:32 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
What's in the Safe? (Olivia Nuzzi, New York magazine)
posted by box at 4:32 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Are you sure Hank done it this way?"
posted by mandolin conspiracy
I wanna ride in/the car Hank died in
posted by spitbull at 4:38 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
...is this real
Yes. One of Trump's White House aides, Omarosa Manigault Newman, made the claim that she saw him eating paper after a meeting with Cohen. Destroying this sort of document is illegal.
posted by Mitheral at 4:41 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yes. One of Trump's White House aides, Omarosa Manigault Newman, made the claim that she saw him eating paper after a meeting with Cohen. Destroying this sort of document is illegal.
posted by Mitheral at 4:41 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
NPR's Morning Edition is framing this as 'Former president Trump says his Mar-a-Lago home was raided by the FBI,' and I feel like the only completely true word in that summary is 'former.'
posted by box at 4:44 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by box at 4:44 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Omarosa said he sometimes ate documents. Maybe he was keeping them, you know, for a snack.
For the past six years, in trying to encapsulate the frustration, the sorrow, the absolute fury at Trump and what he and his supporters have done to this country, I keep going back to "U-Turn". This was a Southwest Noir starring Sean Penn and Jennifer Lopez. Basically, Penn is stuck in this small town where most everyone seems to exist just to make him miserable.
Near the end of the movie, he finally gets a bus ticket out of town and makes the mistake of showing it to one of the most obnoxious characters, played by Joaquin Phoenix. Phoenix's character takes one looks at it, snatch's it out of Penn's hand, stuffs it in his mouth and begins to maniacally chew.
The malignant stupidity of that act reminded me of Trump. Now I know how accurate I really was.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 4:45 AM on August 9, 2022 [18 favorites]
For the past six years, in trying to encapsulate the frustration, the sorrow, the absolute fury at Trump and what he and his supporters have done to this country, I keep going back to "U-Turn". This was a Southwest Noir starring Sean Penn and Jennifer Lopez. Basically, Penn is stuck in this small town where most everyone seems to exist just to make him miserable.
Near the end of the movie, he finally gets a bus ticket out of town and makes the mistake of showing it to one of the most obnoxious characters, played by Joaquin Phoenix. Phoenix's character takes one looks at it, snatch's it out of Penn's hand, stuffs it in his mouth and begins to maniacally chew.
The malignant stupidity of that act reminded me of Trump. Now I know how accurate I really was.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 4:45 AM on August 9, 2022 [18 favorites]
Hopefully this leads to something.
I had naively assumed that because all former presidents are surrounded by the Secret Service for the rest of their lives, Trump's post-presidency would at least be a kind of house arrest and that everything he did would be closely watched and monitored by the feds and he'd never be allowed to so much as fart without agents logging it.
Does Biden have the authority to completely replace all of Trump's detail or is this one of those gentlemanly agreements where current presidents aren't allowed to interfere with the affairs of former presidents?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 4:48 AM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
I had naively assumed that because all former presidents are surrounded by the Secret Service for the rest of their lives, Trump's post-presidency would at least be a kind of house arrest and that everything he did would be closely watched and monitored by the feds and he'd never be allowed to so much as fart without agents logging it.
Does Biden have the authority to completely replace all of Trump's detail or is this one of those gentlemanly agreements where current presidents aren't allowed to interfere with the affairs of former presidents?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 4:48 AM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
(In other political news from yesterday, the New Yorker has Mark Milley's previously-unpublished resignation letter and an account of Milley's 'fight from the inside.' It's adapted from the upcoming book The Divider: Trump in the White House, 2017-2021)
posted by box at 5:03 AM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by box at 5:03 AM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
This act of treason should have ended the GOP, the way that the end of WWII ended Nazi Germany
It’s worth remembering that, after the head had been cut off, many high ranking Nazis quietly returned to positions of authority in West German business and government. Most of these guys will never be held to account.
posted by ryanshepard at 5:06 AM on August 9, 2022 [25 favorites]
It’s worth remembering that, after the head had been cut off, many high ranking Nazis quietly returned to positions of authority in West German business and government. Most of these guys will never be held to account.
posted by ryanshepard at 5:06 AM on August 9, 2022 [25 favorites]
Seen on Twitter:
"Eric Trump: There is no family in America that has taken more arrows in the back.
Narrator: Members of the Kennedy family could not be reached for comment."
posted by orange swan at 5:10 AM on August 9, 2022 [38 favorites]
"Eric Trump: There is no family in America that has taken more arrows in the back.
Narrator: Members of the Kennedy family could not be reached for comment."
posted by orange swan at 5:10 AM on August 9, 2022 [38 favorites]
Blasting this on repeat (hopefully it's annoying the shit out of my Trumpist neighbors).
posted by Token Meme at 5:21 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Token Meme at 5:21 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
"What I have never understood about white-collar/political criminals is why they *keep* the evidence."
Mr. McGee did white-collar criminal defense for a while, and basically, white collar criminals never think they've done anything wrong. They always had a good reason for committing the crime. They're nightmare clients because they're deeply convinced that if they just explain their reason, the court will let them go, so they won't shut up about how exactly they committed their crime. They basically think they're smarter than the law, so it doesn't apply to them; they're smarter than the jury; and they're smarter than their lawyer. So they just keep explaining and typically neatly lay out all the elements of the crime while their lawyer goes "Take the Fifth you moron!"
Trump is basically exactly the playbook for a typical white collar criminal. See also: Elon Musk's total inability not to undermine his own legal theories on twitter non-stop.
"lawyer's lawyer"
MAGA = Make Attorneys Get Attorneys
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:26 AM on August 9, 2022 [100 favorites]
Mr. McGee did white-collar criminal defense for a while, and basically, white collar criminals never think they've done anything wrong. They always had a good reason for committing the crime. They're nightmare clients because they're deeply convinced that if they just explain their reason, the court will let them go, so they won't shut up about how exactly they committed their crime. They basically think they're smarter than the law, so it doesn't apply to them; they're smarter than the jury; and they're smarter than their lawyer. So they just keep explaining and typically neatly lay out all the elements of the crime while their lawyer goes "Take the Fifth you moron!"
Trump is basically exactly the playbook for a typical white collar criminal. See also: Elon Musk's total inability not to undermine his own legal theories on twitter non-stop.
"lawyer's lawyer"
MAGA = Make Attorneys Get Attorneys
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:26 AM on August 9, 2022 [100 favorites]
The only other person besides Trump who had the key to the safe was "Matty the Squid"?! This reminds me of Roosevelt's infamous head of security Greasy Thumbs McGregor or John Adams security chief Pistol Pete.
posted by geoff. at 5:28 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by geoff. at 5:28 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Seen on Twitter:
"BREAKING: Hunter Biden says he watched the Mar-a-Lago raid live on his laptop."
posted by orange swan at 5:34 AM on August 9, 2022 [21 favorites]
"BREAKING: Hunter Biden says he watched the Mar-a-Lago raid live on his laptop."
posted by orange swan at 5:34 AM on August 9, 2022 [21 favorites]
Even Pepé the King Prawn is glued to the news.
posted by orange swan at 5:41 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by orange swan at 5:41 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Mark Milley's previously-unpublished resignation letter
That man has the bravest, most principled, thoroughly bad-ass drafts folder in existence.
posted by PlusDistance at 5:43 AM on August 9, 2022 [28 favorites]
That man has the bravest, most principled, thoroughly bad-ass drafts folder in existence.
posted by PlusDistance at 5:43 AM on August 9, 2022 [28 favorites]
From Twitter
first they came for roger stone, and i said “great.” next, they came for alex jones and i said “good news.” then they came for donald trump and i said “this is also excellent”
posted by inflatablekiwi at 5:56 AM on August 9, 2022 [87 favorites]
first they came for roger stone, and i said “great.” next, they came for alex jones and i said “good news.” then they came for donald trump and i said “this is also excellent”
posted by inflatablekiwi at 5:56 AM on August 9, 2022 [87 favorites]
Seeing conservatives frothing about Hunter Biden makes me feel like I'm having a stroke. Why is the room sideways? Does anyone else smell burnt toast? What the everliving fuck is this person talking about?
They're scared, and they will try all the rhetorical tricks that the so-called "liberal media" usually swallows -- whataboutism, performative outrage, and and phony cries of "politicization" -- to distract from the fact that a Federal magistrate found there was probable cause to believe Mar-a-Lago held evidence of a crime.
Notably, legal Twitter doesn't seem fooled at all.
posted by Gelatin at 5:59 AM on August 9, 2022 [27 favorites]
They're scared, and they will try all the rhetorical tricks that the so-called "liberal media" usually swallows -- whataboutism, performative outrage, and and phony cries of "politicization" -- to distract from the fact that a Federal magistrate found there was probable cause to believe Mar-a-Lago held evidence of a crime.
Notably, legal Twitter doesn't seem fooled at all.
posted by Gelatin at 5:59 AM on August 9, 2022 [27 favorites]
New York Times Pitchbot
@DougJBalloon
The FBI raid of Mar-a-Lago could have a chilling effect on future presidents’ ability to hide classified materials detailing their efforts to overthrow the government.
7:38 AM · Aug 9, 2022·
posted by bluesky43 at 6:05 AM on August 9, 2022 [87 favorites]
@DougJBalloon
The FBI raid of Mar-a-Lago could have a chilling effect on future presidents’ ability to hide classified materials detailing their efforts to overthrow the government.
7:38 AM · Aug 9, 2022·
posted by bluesky43 at 6:05 AM on August 9, 2022 [87 favorites]
And how did that help? Russia and the rest of the world got plans pretty much immediately afterwards and it is pretty clear that Germany was not in the position to build a nuclear bomb.
This isn't really the place for it so I'm not going to get into a back and forth on this or write the long comment I normally would, but in short it was largely a reaction to Congress learning we were sharing with the British and probably also as a rebuke to the contingent that was advocating for extranational control of atomic weapons. The relatively quick release of the Smyth Report (and the fact of the later revisions with redactions that the Soviets used to divine what we considered to be the hardest parts of making a bomb) before the secrecy hawks had time to organize shows the drastic change in thinking in just a few short years.
Alex Wellerstein's book Restricted Data is an excellent resource on the topic. It's focused on the nuclear weapons aspect, but the inextricable link between nukes and the rest of the security state means that it ends up covering more than the narrow topic of nuclear secrecy.
posted by wierdo at 6:08 AM on August 9, 2022 [17 favorites]
This isn't really the place for it so I'm not going to get into a back and forth on this or write the long comment I normally would, but in short it was largely a reaction to Congress learning we were sharing with the British and probably also as a rebuke to the contingent that was advocating for extranational control of atomic weapons. The relatively quick release of the Smyth Report (and the fact of the later revisions with redactions that the Soviets used to divine what we considered to be the hardest parts of making a bomb) before the secrecy hawks had time to organize shows the drastic change in thinking in just a few short years.
Alex Wellerstein's book Restricted Data is an excellent resource on the topic. It's focused on the nuclear weapons aspect, but the inextricable link between nukes and the rest of the security state means that it ends up covering more than the narrow topic of nuclear secrecy.
posted by wierdo at 6:08 AM on August 9, 2022 [17 favorites]
@MobyDickatSea [a Moby Dick quote bot on Twitter]
How it was that they so aboundingly responded to the old man’s ire—by what evil magic their souls were possessed, that at times his hate seemed almost theirs
12:47 AM Aug 9, 2022
posted by MiraK at 6:14 AM on August 9, 2022 [12 favorites]
How it was that they so aboundingly responded to the old man’s ire—by what evil magic their souls were possessed, that at times his hate seemed almost theirs
12:47 AM Aug 9, 2022
posted by MiraK at 6:14 AM on August 9, 2022 [12 favorites]
It is a hotel style safe. FBI broke it open.
I doubt they “broke” it as hotel safes have override codes that let the hotel operators open them. Likely just prepared and had the code on hand.
posted by jmauro at 6:25 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
I doubt they “broke” it as hotel safes have override codes that let the hotel operators open them. Likely just prepared and had the code on hand.
posted by jmauro at 6:25 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
i don't see what the big deal is about the safe - he's got to keep his mcdonald's coupons somewhere
posted by pyramid termite at 6:30 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 6:30 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
In Germany, this would be unthinkable. It is generally accepted that the chancellor will take official documents with them when they leave office.
There is a difference between official documents and classified documents.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:40 AM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
There is a difference between official documents and classified documents.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:40 AM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
On the other hand, maybe the safe is where he kept all that potential blackmail material he was rumored to be hoarding? He probably doesn't see any difference between that and whatever classified material he deliberately absconded with, so why not store them in the same place?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:48 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:48 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
In Germany, this would be unthinkable. It is generally accepted that the chancellor will take official documents with them when they leave office.true but I'd also highlight Ashenmote's lament about how German parties would keep official documents away from public scrutiny. The US has the Presidential Library System for the express purpose of ensuring that these official documents remain available to the public for the purposes of scholarship and government transparency. There's still a bunch of stuff that remains classified, but at at least there's a default stance to making official documents otherwise publically available.
There is a difference between official documents and classified documents.
Given that the Presidential Libraries are run by NARA and this entire raid is conducted to enforce NARA regulations, I mentioned to my wife last night that this is essentially the most badass raid for overdue materials ever conducted by any library.
posted by bl1nk at 7:21 AM on August 9, 2022 [52 favorites]
Given that the Presidential Libraries are run by NARA and this entire raid is conducted to enforce NARA regulations
Maybe it is. No one really knows what this is about. TBH though I agree that it would be badass, I don't feel not complying with NARA regulations would merit a FBI raid.
Also, regardless of what the raid is about, there must be a ton of interesting spill-off. Kind of like Alex Jones' phone thing. I saw George Conway on CNN, and he mentioned that many boxes were taken by the FBI. I haven't seen this mentioned elsewere, so Conway might just be inventing stuff, but I'd stock up on popcorn now.
posted by mumimor at 7:29 AM on August 9, 2022
Maybe it is. No one really knows what this is about. TBH though I agree that it would be badass, I don't feel not complying with NARA regulations would merit a FBI raid.
Also, regardless of what the raid is about, there must be a ton of interesting spill-off. Kind of like Alex Jones' phone thing. I saw George Conway on CNN, and he mentioned that many boxes were taken by the FBI. I haven't seen this mentioned elsewere, so Conway might just be inventing stuff, but I'd stock up on popcorn now.
posted by mumimor at 7:29 AM on August 9, 2022
I don't feel not complying with NARA regulations would merit a FBI raid.
Go back and look at CheeseDigestsAll's comment above. Mariotti is implying that there's more to this than improper storage of documents.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:38 AM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
Go back and look at CheeseDigestsAll's comment above. Mariotti is implying that there's more to this than improper storage of documents.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:38 AM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
Does a treasonous--convicted traitor--president lead to some sort of Constitutional "do-over"?
In the ELI5 answer to this and your other questions/speculations, no.
Whatever crimes he may have committed in office, he was still legitimately in office, and for all of the (entirely correct, IMO) concern about how the executive power of the office of the President has grown over the last decades (which certainly didn't start with Trump), in practice we still have a 3-part system of government, where a whole bunch of stuff originates in and/or is approved by and/or is confirmed by the other branches of the government, Congress and the judiciary. Congress writes and passes tax laws, the Senate confirms SC Justices, Federal judges confirm the legality of immigration policies, etc. etc. etc.
Trump may have tried like hell to get there, but he was not a dictator, he accomplished very little by fiat or declaration or "executive decision", the other branches of government had crucial roles in enacting Trump policies, there is no "wipe-the-slate-clean" provision because the other branches still retain power and authority and autonomy and were and are a crucial part of the process.
Trump may have trumpeted about his great tax plan that made the rich richer on the back of the working class, but it was still Congress technically acting independently that created and passed his tax plan. Throwing Trump in jail now doesn't change the fact that it was a legit tax law created by legit Congressional process. So on and so forth.
Things that Trump could (mostly) legitimately do unilaterally can (mostly) be reversed by the Biden administration also unilaterally. (Part of the frustration with the Biden admin is that they have not been as active about this as many of us would like.)
Also worth remembering that a lot of Trump's "executive decisions" were largely bullshit. I'm making this up from whole cloth and not to denigrate the real pain some of these decisions caused people, but like, he would say, "Yogurt is a sissy liberal food, I am signing an Executive Order that we're not serving it to our armed forces anymore!!" and all the MAGAhats and Fox News would go, "GRRRR! Yay! He Man Tough Guy!!!" but the actual text of the order written by staffers who at least somewhat understood the law and the limits of executive power would be something like, "I authorize the DOD to create an exploratory committee to investigate whether we can and should eliminate yogurt from DOD rations and mess halls and this committee will at some future unspecified point present their findings to the Quartermaster Corps who will then decide whether to act upon these findings." All bark, no bite.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:41 AM on August 9, 2022 [34 favorites]
In the ELI5 answer to this and your other questions/speculations, no.
Whatever crimes he may have committed in office, he was still legitimately in office, and for all of the (entirely correct, IMO) concern about how the executive power of the office of the President has grown over the last decades (which certainly didn't start with Trump), in practice we still have a 3-part system of government, where a whole bunch of stuff originates in and/or is approved by and/or is confirmed by the other branches of the government, Congress and the judiciary. Congress writes and passes tax laws, the Senate confirms SC Justices, Federal judges confirm the legality of immigration policies, etc. etc. etc.
Trump may have tried like hell to get there, but he was not a dictator, he accomplished very little by fiat or declaration or "executive decision", the other branches of government had crucial roles in enacting Trump policies, there is no "wipe-the-slate-clean" provision because the other branches still retain power and authority and autonomy and were and are a crucial part of the process.
Trump may have trumpeted about his great tax plan that made the rich richer on the back of the working class, but it was still Congress technically acting independently that created and passed his tax plan. Throwing Trump in jail now doesn't change the fact that it was a legit tax law created by legit Congressional process. So on and so forth.
Things that Trump could (mostly) legitimately do unilaterally can (mostly) be reversed by the Biden administration also unilaterally. (Part of the frustration with the Biden admin is that they have not been as active about this as many of us would like.)
Also worth remembering that a lot of Trump's "executive decisions" were largely bullshit. I'm making this up from whole cloth and not to denigrate the real pain some of these decisions caused people, but like, he would say, "Yogurt is a sissy liberal food, I am signing an Executive Order that we're not serving it to our armed forces anymore!!" and all the MAGAhats and Fox News would go, "GRRRR! Yay! He Man Tough Guy!!!" but the actual text of the order written by staffers who at least somewhat understood the law and the limits of executive power would be something like, "I authorize the DOD to create an exploratory committee to investigate whether we can and should eliminate yogurt from DOD rations and mess halls and this committee will at some future unspecified point present their findings to the Quartermaster Corps who will then decide whether to act upon these findings." All bark, no bite.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:41 AM on August 9, 2022 [34 favorites]
It’s interesting this has happened right after the LIV golf tournament at Trump’s property. I haven’t seen anyone else mention that. Is it possible he handed over or promised documents to the Saudis or someone else at that event?
posted by glaucon at 7:42 AM on August 9, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by glaucon at 7:42 AM on August 9, 2022 [13 favorites]
Go back and look at CheeseDigestsAll's comment above. Mariotti is implying that there's more to this than improper storage of documents.
Well, that is kind of what I was trying to say...
posted by mumimor at 7:44 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well, that is kind of what I was trying to say...
posted by mumimor at 7:44 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wonder how many cheeseburgers he threw at the wall last night.
posted by Mister_Sleight_of_Hand at 7:48 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Mister_Sleight_of_Hand at 7:48 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
I wonder how many cheeseburgers he threw at the wall last night
Wait that’s not how you know when cheeseburgers are done
posted by aubilenon at 8:06 AM on August 9, 2022 [19 favorites]
Wait that’s not how you know when cheeseburgers are done
posted by aubilenon at 8:06 AM on August 9, 2022 [19 favorites]
There's still a bunch of stuff that remains classified
Somewhat happily, even that stuff has a process for eventually becoming public if action is not taken to keep it classified. Takes a long, long time though unless there is someone pushing for a reevaluation through FOIA.
Things that Trump could (mostly) legitimately do unilaterally can (mostly) be reversed by the Biden administration also unilaterally. (Part of the frustration with the Biden admin is that they have not been as active about this as many of us would like.)
It must be remembered that doing it correctly in a way that will survive legal challenges is a process. One of the reasons Trump's efforts often failed was a lack of adherence to those processes. Doing it by the book makes it harder for future administrations to reverse again. Not impossible, by any means, but they'll have to spend more time and effort on the project, meaning there will be less time for other policymaking than there would be if Biden's administration rushed things.
posted by wierdo at 8:21 AM on August 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
Somewhat happily, even that stuff has a process for eventually becoming public if action is not taken to keep it classified. Takes a long, long time though unless there is someone pushing for a reevaluation through FOIA.
Things that Trump could (mostly) legitimately do unilaterally can (mostly) be reversed by the Biden administration also unilaterally. (Part of the frustration with the Biden admin is that they have not been as active about this as many of us would like.)
It must be remembered that doing it correctly in a way that will survive legal challenges is a process. One of the reasons Trump's efforts often failed was a lack of adherence to those processes. Doing it by the book makes it harder for future administrations to reverse again. Not impossible, by any means, but they'll have to spend more time and effort on the project, meaning there will be less time for other policymaking than there would be if Biden's administration rushed things.
posted by wierdo at 8:21 AM on August 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'm making this up from whole cloth and not to denigrate the real pain some of these decisions caused people, but like, he would say, "Yogurt is a sissy liberal food
I appreciate your example is fictional….but it made me Google “trump yogurt” anyway…and I had forgotten the drama with Chobani.
There are more Trump adjunct yogurt news stories then seems necessary for any president . What’s the right number? Fuck knows… but really more than one seems weird (see also - pillows). To be non-partisan, Biden perviously fell into a similar yogurt / frozen yogurt hole.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:43 AM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
I appreciate your example is fictional….but it made me Google “trump yogurt” anyway…and I had forgotten the drama with Chobani.
There are more Trump adjunct yogurt news stories then seems necessary for any president . What’s the right number? Fuck knows… but really more than one seems weird (see also - pillows). To be non-partisan, Biden perviously fell into a similar yogurt / frozen yogurt hole.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:43 AM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
they never think they'll be investigated let alone raided (because they generally aren't) and so have completely broken OpSec.
Somewhere on Popehat's Twitter feed -- possibly by him, possibly a retweet -- someone pointed out that it wouldn't be enough for a warrant to show probable cause Trump had them at some point; the FBI would have to show that he likely had the evidence right now.
Which means someone on the inside, maybe an undercover investigator or a whistleblower, had to provide that information.
posted by Gelatin at 8:44 AM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
Somewhere on Popehat's Twitter feed -- possibly by him, possibly a retweet -- someone pointed out that it wouldn't be enough for a warrant to show probable cause Trump had them at some point; the FBI would have to show that he likely had the evidence right now.
Which means someone on the inside, maybe an undercover investigator or a whistleblower, had to provide that information.
posted by Gelatin at 8:44 AM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
Quagmire-a-Lago
posted by kirkaracha at 8:45 AM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 8:45 AM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
"What is the difference between this and Watergate..."
Watergate: president-selected FBI acting director destroys evidence as part of coverup
Stupid Watergate: president-selected FBI director serves search warrant
posted by kirkaracha at 8:49 AM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
Watergate: president-selected FBI acting director destroys evidence as part of coverup
Stupid Watergate: president-selected FBI director serves search warrant
posted by kirkaracha at 8:49 AM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's not turning out to be his day, frankly
posted by prismatic7 at 8:50 AM on August 9, 2022 [30 favorites]
posted by prismatic7 at 8:50 AM on August 9, 2022 [30 favorites]
On the one hand, I want to see this as a fantastic sign of justice slowly beginning to be handed down for at least some of his corruption.
But it's so hard for me not to see this as yet another rallying cry that his people (and even ordinary Republicans who just need to maintain the polarized narrative) are using to help him raise money and will certainly use to genuinely target and punish Democrats the second they have the chance.
And at the same time, on the other other hand, how is it not blatantly obvious that THIS IS THE STORM? Q predicted exactly this! He just left clues pointing toward the wrong pedophile! DO THE RESEARCH! I bet someone who dug deep enough could even find a Nostradamus-like projection of the date itself! ...won't somebody think of the sheeple?
posted by Mchelly at 8:59 AM on August 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
But it's so hard for me not to see this as yet another rallying cry that his people (and even ordinary Republicans who just need to maintain the polarized narrative) are using to help him raise money and will certainly use to genuinely target and punish Democrats the second they have the chance.
And at the same time, on the other other hand, how is it not blatantly obvious that THIS IS THE STORM? Q predicted exactly this! He just left clues pointing toward the wrong pedophile! DO THE RESEARCH! I bet someone who dug deep enough could even find a Nostradamus-like projection of the date itself! ...won't somebody think of the sheeple?
posted by Mchelly at 8:59 AM on August 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
But it's so hard for me not to see this as yet another rallying cry that his people (and even ordinary Republicans who just need to maintain the polarized narrative) are using to help him raise money and will certainly use to genuinely target and punish Democrats the second they have the chance.
There are more of us than there are of them.
Which means, if more of us actually turn up to the polls come November -- whether motivated by an improving economy, anger over the Republican removal of the Constitutional right to abortion, the desire not to see the Republicans turn this nation into a fascist state, something else, or some combination thereof -- they won't get the chance to punish Democrats at all.
posted by Gelatin at 9:17 AM on August 9, 2022 [16 favorites]
There are more of us than there are of them.
Which means, if more of us actually turn up to the polls come November -- whether motivated by an improving economy, anger over the Republican removal of the Constitutional right to abortion, the desire not to see the Republicans turn this nation into a fascist state, something else, or some combination thereof -- they won't get the chance to punish Democrats at all.
posted by Gelatin at 9:17 AM on August 9, 2022 [16 favorites]
Stop being afraid of what Fox News and the right will do when anything goes our way. They didn't hold back in the Trump years, or at any time I can remember since Newt Gingrich. They're always going to be flaming assholes. Don't stop doing what we do, and escalate. Burn them.
They killed Roe...it's war. Hit harder.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:17 AM on August 9, 2022 [119 favorites]
They killed Roe...it's war. Hit harder.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:17 AM on August 9, 2022 [119 favorites]
It's not turning out to be his day, frankly
Occam's Razor suggests that Trump wouldn't have fought so hard to conceal his tax returns if there weren't something embarrassing at least, or even incriminating, in them.
tl;dr: [nelson_muntz_haha.gif]
posted by Gelatin at 9:18 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Occam's Razor suggests that Trump wouldn't have fought so hard to conceal his tax returns if there weren't something embarrassing at least, or even incriminating, in them.
tl;dr: [nelson_muntz_haha.gif]
posted by Gelatin at 9:18 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
The NRA took a lot of money from Russia to give to the Republican Party, whose people knowingly accepted it. This act of treason should have ended the GOP, the way that the end of WWII ended Nazi Germany as a political entity
Huh? How could this be considered treason? Venal and corrupt—absolutely. But as far as I know, we haven't been at (capital W) war with Russia for quite some time.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:27 AM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Huh? How could this be considered treason? Venal and corrupt—absolutely. But as far as I know, we haven't been at (capital W) war with Russia for quite some time.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:27 AM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
But they have been, with us.
posted by hypnogogue at 9:34 AM on August 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by hypnogogue at 9:34 AM on August 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
Former vice-president Mike Pence, who supporters of Donald Trump threatened to hang during the 6 January attack on the US Capitol, has waded in the fracas that is the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago and thrown his support behind his former president.Why do they keep doubling down on this asshole no matter what he does?
Realistically, neither the right-wing industrial complex nor the number of asshole racists is going to go anywhere if Republicans were to turn on Trump. Maybe they'd have to spend the next few election cycles in the political wilderness, but as we saw with the multi decades-long plan to overturn Roe, they're a patient bunch. Why can't they just accept defeat, return to their usual playbook of intense obstructionism knowing that the polarization will continue to impede any real progress, and then come back in six, eight years with some New and Improved candidate who can lure dumb suburbanites into trusting by knowing when to keep the quiet parts quiet?
So why is Pence of all people defending Trump? Is Pence just putting his personal desire for power ahead of his party? Is there a real consensus amongst the GOP that democracy is over and authoritarianism is the way forward? Are they that scared of what small achievements a Democratic majority might do with power such that they're willing to completely sell out the Constitution?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:36 AM on August 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
Why do they keep doubling down on this asshole no matter what he does?
See soundguy99's comment on their complicity in the actions of the Trump administration. They are worried about experiencing consequences themselves for their own actions, and Trump is just the touchstone or figurehead.
posted by eviemath at 9:44 AM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
See soundguy99's comment on their complicity in the actions of the Trump administration. They are worried about experiencing consequences themselves for their own actions, and Trump is just the touchstone or figurehead.
posted by eviemath at 9:44 AM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
@mrbenwexler:
“This is going to enrage Trump’s base”
Bro, the words ‘Happy Holidays’ enrage Trump’s base
posted by gwint at 9:46 AM on August 9, 2022 [113 favorites]
“This is going to enrage Trump’s base”
Bro, the words ‘Happy Holidays’ enrage Trump’s base
posted by gwint at 9:46 AM on August 9, 2022 [113 favorites]
But as far as I know, we haven't been at (capital W) war with Russia for quite some time.
The Russian kleptocracy has been trying to destabilize and overthrow democracies around the world — including ours. The effects have been devastating. If Russians washing cash through the NRA to buy Republicans doesn't convince you, and if four years of a Russian agent like Trump hasn't convinced you that we and other Western nations are at war with this country, does Hungary convince you? Does Brexit? Does Ukraine, even?
I'm asking seriously, because we've been skating ever closer to a classically Fascist regime bought and paid for by Russia. If it isn't treason for a US official to take money from a nation-state that wants to destroy the US, what is?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:51 AM on August 9, 2022 [33 favorites]
The Russian kleptocracy has been trying to destabilize and overthrow democracies around the world — including ours. The effects have been devastating. If Russians washing cash through the NRA to buy Republicans doesn't convince you, and if four years of a Russian agent like Trump hasn't convinced you that we and other Western nations are at war with this country, does Hungary convince you? Does Brexit? Does Ukraine, even?
I'm asking seriously, because we've been skating ever closer to a classically Fascist regime bought and paid for by Russia. If it isn't treason for a US official to take money from a nation-state that wants to destroy the US, what is?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:51 AM on August 9, 2022 [33 favorites]
How long until we learn that the Secret Service tipped off Trump about the impending search?
posted by srboisvert at 9:52 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 9:52 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hee - Wil Wheaton just posted that classic Far Side cartoon on his Facebook, with the dog trying to lure the cat into the washing machine with a sign reading "Cat Fud" - and added the comment, "does anyone else feel like they can really relate to the dog right now?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:00 AM on August 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:00 AM on August 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
Apparently the FBI didn't notify the SS until they got there.
posted by Mitheral at 10:12 AM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 10:12 AM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
"Eric Trump: There is no family in America that has taken more arrows in the back.
Narrator: Members of the Kennedy family could not be reached for comment."
JFK Jr. will be at the park by the corner under the big tree today at 3pm if you want to ask him.
posted by srboisvert at 10:23 AM on August 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
Narrator: Members of the Kennedy family could not be reached for comment."
JFK Jr. will be at the park by the corner under the big tree today at 3pm if you want to ask him.
posted by srboisvert at 10:23 AM on August 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
Which means someone on the inside, maybe an undercover investigator or a whistleblower, had to provide that information [about the material in Mar-a-Lago]
Here's a possibility:
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:34 AM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
Here's a possibility:
@JohnPhillips: After @OMAROSA publicly defeated the Trump Campaign and substantial attorneys fees were awarded and the Campaign's NDA was held unenforceable, the Campaign has officially given up and is releasing everyone from the NDA.The NDA was released about a month ago and filed with the courts this morning. Hmmm. And we already know about the chewing of papers and the toilet scraps.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:34 AM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
Realistically, neither the right-wing industrial complex nor the number of asshole racists is going to go anywhere if Republicans were to turn on Trump. Maybe they'd have to spend the next few election cycles in the political wilderness, but as we saw with the multi decades-long plan to overturn Roe, they're a patient bunch. Why can't they just accept defeat, return to their usual playbook of intense obstructionism knowing that the polarization will continue to impede any real progress, and then come back in six, eight years with some New and Improved candidate who can lure dumb suburbanites into trusting by knowing when to keep the quiet parts quiet?
Gaming this out, I think this is the right long term strategy for the institutional Republican party. They'd be out of power for a bit and then ride the inevitable backlash into power just in time for the 2030 census redistricting.
But you know who that would be a terrible strategy for? Currently elected Republicans in purplish states/districts and definitely those who aspire to the presidency. Mike Pence is deluded but he thinks there is a shot he could be president. He is definitely not going to be president if he is vocally anti-Trump...and he will be way too old with too many competitors in 8 years.
Ron Desantis is a special case in that he is young enough that he definitely could wait. He however sees an opportunity now and waiting only increases the possibility of formidable opponents appearing. Also vocally being anti-Trump is not going to help him with the base that picks the Republican nominee for president.
posted by mmascolino at 11:06 AM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Gaming this out, I think this is the right long term strategy for the institutional Republican party. They'd be out of power for a bit and then ride the inevitable backlash into power just in time for the 2030 census redistricting.
But you know who that would be a terrible strategy for? Currently elected Republicans in purplish states/districts and definitely those who aspire to the presidency. Mike Pence is deluded but he thinks there is a shot he could be president. He is definitely not going to be president if he is vocally anti-Trump...and he will be way too old with too many competitors in 8 years.
Ron Desantis is a special case in that he is young enough that he definitely could wait. He however sees an opportunity now and waiting only increases the possibility of formidable opponents appearing. Also vocally being anti-Trump is not going to help him with the base that picks the Republican nominee for president.
posted by mmascolino at 11:06 AM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Omarosa won her lawsuit over NDAs over a year ago. Just because the toilet photos were released a month ago doesn't mean that's when people were released from their NDAs.
posted by Spike Glee at 11:14 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Spike Glee at 11:14 AM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
What's the deal with the fixation on third world countries? I understand there is racism behind their message, and that the term itself is problematic, and that's generally why it is in their discourse. But why that classification specifically? Are they referring to some specific region, country, or event?
posted by Snowishberlin at 11:20 AM on August 9, 2022
posted by Snowishberlin at 11:20 AM on August 9, 2022
Are they referring to some specific region
They are referring to places that have; sanctioned gun violence, removal of rights, plagues, corrupt police, coups, etc. You know, one of those far-off places.
posted by banshee at 11:26 AM on August 9, 2022 [43 favorites]
They are referring to places that have; sanctioned gun violence, removal of rights, plagues, corrupt police, coups, etc. You know, one of those far-off places.
posted by banshee at 11:26 AM on August 9, 2022 [43 favorites]
Are they referring to some specific region, country, or event?
Nope. They just mean "this is stuff you hear about in all those other bad countries, it's not supposed to happen in 'Murica".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:39 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Nope. They just mean "this is stuff you hear about in all those other bad countries, it's not supposed to happen in 'Murica".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:39 AM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
What's the deal with the fixation on third world countries?
When I went to Kenya, my Republican acquaintances were very, very worried on my behalf. They seemed to think that Africa is universally lawless and dangerous. One person asked if I wasn't afraid of being shot. I pointed out that I was at much more risk of gun violence in America, which they absolutely couldn't parse. It bounced right off their pre-conceived ideas about the world. Kenya as its own place with its own specific conditions that might be different from neighboring countries was not something they were willing to consider either. It was absolutely racism, but also some kind of bone-deep incurious ignorance about any place outside our borders.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:45 AM on August 9, 2022 [50 favorites]
When I went to Kenya, my Republican acquaintances were very, very worried on my behalf. They seemed to think that Africa is universally lawless and dangerous. One person asked if I wasn't afraid of being shot. I pointed out that I was at much more risk of gun violence in America, which they absolutely couldn't parse. It bounced right off their pre-conceived ideas about the world. Kenya as its own place with its own specific conditions that might be different from neighboring countries was not something they were willing to consider either. It was absolutely racism, but also some kind of bone-deep incurious ignorance about any place outside our borders.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:45 AM on August 9, 2022 [50 favorites]
> It’s interesting this has happened right after the LIV golf tournament at Trump’s property. I haven’t seen anyone else mention that. Is it possible he handed over or promised documents to the Saudis or someone else at that event?If that's the case, I'd love for Trump to have used Mar-a-Lago and his other properties in the commission of Federal felonies so they can be seized in forfeiture.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 12:05 PM on August 9, 2022 [15 favorites]
It's a gruesome thought, but I wondered earlier if he'd buried any papers with Ivana at Bedminster. Wouldn't be beyond him, I don't think. Maybe that's too dark, sorry.
posted by ceejaytee at 12:07 PM on August 9, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by ceejaytee at 12:07 PM on August 9, 2022 [17 favorites]
Quick, give Geraldo a backhoe!
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 12:11 PM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 12:11 PM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
ceejaytee, I confess to doing the same. I feel awful. Not because I wouldn't put it past him, but because even that still feels like yet another bridge too far.
posted by mochapickle at 12:14 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mochapickle at 12:14 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Gross. Imagine being buried with Lindsey Graham's dick pics.
posted by adept256 at 12:17 PM on August 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 12:17 PM on August 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
Also remember that "Third-World countries" is, for some, synonymous with "deepest darkest Africa" and "banana republics." So, a nice generous dollop of racism on top of the shit sundae.
posted by hangashore at 12:18 PM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by hangashore at 12:18 PM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
I realized long ago that If I think he could do it, he would do it. So yes, all kinds of things are possible. I hope DOJ has tabs on Jared's ipad...
posted by zerobyproxy at 12:18 PM on August 9, 2022
posted by zerobyproxy at 12:18 PM on August 9, 2022
It’s a gruesome thought, but I wondered earlier if he'd buried any papers with Ivana at Bedminster. Wouldn't be beyond him, I don't think. Maybe that's too dark, sorry.
That seems like it would require a lot of cunning for a man who just does crimes.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:21 PM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
That seems like it would require a lot of cunning for a man who just does crimes.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:21 PM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
the FBI would have to show that he likely had the evidence right now. Which means someone on the inside, maybe an undercover investigator or a whistleblower, had to provide that information.
Yesterday's LfaA: [The New Yorker] revealed that Trump and the generals of the United States Army were fundamentally at odds about how they viewed the United States. Trump wanted the generals to be loyal to him, as he believed “the German generals in World War II” were loyal to Adolf Hitler. (In fact, they tried repeatedly to assassinate him.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:29 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yesterday's LfaA: [The New Yorker] revealed that Trump and the generals of the United States Army were fundamentally at odds about how they viewed the United States. Trump wanted the generals to be loyal to him, as he believed “the German generals in World War II” were loyal to Adolf Hitler. (In fact, they tried repeatedly to assassinate him.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:29 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Huh? How could this be considered treason? Venal and corrupt—absolutely. But as far as I know, we haven't been at (capital W) war with Russia for quite some time.
But they have been, with us.
But part of the US strategy has been not to give credibility to Russia by acknowledging that its war exists -- publicly the US treats it as a nuisance, not an existential threat.
Given the lessons of the so-called "war on terror," this approach seems sensible.
posted by Gelatin at 12:38 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
But they have been, with us.
But part of the US strategy has been not to give credibility to Russia by acknowledging that its war exists -- publicly the US treats it as a nuisance, not an existential threat.
Given the lessons of the so-called "war on terror," this approach seems sensible.
posted by Gelatin at 12:38 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
My guess: they wouldn't go after Trump for improperly having classified documents. They could, but they wouldn't. But they sure would if they thought he was transferring them to someone else and likely to keep it up. They must have spotted something turn up somewhere that could only have come from Trump, and only after he was out.
posted by ctmf at 12:47 PM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 12:47 PM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
“They even broke into my safe!”
Did they find his copy of Gray's Sports Almanac?
posted by hanov3r at 12:57 PM on August 9, 2022 [38 favorites]
Did they find his copy of Gray's Sports Almanac?
posted by hanov3r at 12:57 PM on August 9, 2022 [38 favorites]
> Omarosa won her lawsuit over NDAs over a year ago. Just because the toilet photos were released a month ago doesn't mean that's when people were released from their NDAs.
Yes, but the threat of the NDAs was never that they would actually hold up. They were clearly illegal from the get-go.
The threat was, the campaign will sue you into bankruptcy if you violate the NDA, whether or not they ultimately win after a multi-year court battle that - whatever other result it may or may not have - will definitely result in the ruination of your life and career.
With notification of previous employees & contractors that they are released from the NDA, that threat is now gone.
And just to be clear, a declaration to the court to that effect was filed June 6th, and notification of that new situation was sent to people who had signed the NDA as recently as July 25th.
So this is indeed a new situation, though it has its roots in events last year and other previous years.
posted by flug at 1:01 PM on August 9, 2022 [14 favorites]
Yes, but the threat of the NDAs was never that they would actually hold up. They were clearly illegal from the get-go.
The threat was, the campaign will sue you into bankruptcy if you violate the NDA, whether or not they ultimately win after a multi-year court battle that - whatever other result it may or may not have - will definitely result in the ruination of your life and career.
With notification of previous employees & contractors that they are released from the NDA, that threat is now gone.
And just to be clear, a declaration to the court to that effect was filed June 6th, and notification of that new situation was sent to people who had signed the NDA as recently as July 25th.
So this is indeed a new situation, though it has its roots in events last year and other previous years.
posted by flug at 1:01 PM on August 9, 2022 [14 favorites]
If memory serves me correctly, at least one of the toilet document photos I saw was by Maggie Haberman, who as an NYT reporter I doubt signed an NDA (though she obviously kept mum about things she knew to put in a book later, as lots of people seem to have done).
posted by Gelatin at 1:09 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 1:09 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Contents of the safe:
A mouldy, half-eaten Big Mac
Signed photo of Roy Cohn
VHS cassette labelled "Lindsey goes to the farm!"
Two sub-critical lumps of plutonium separated by a small, rickety structure of tarot cards - swords only.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:09 PM on August 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
A mouldy, half-eaten Big Mac
Signed photo of Roy Cohn
VHS cassette labelled "Lindsey goes to the farm!"
Two sub-critical lumps of plutonium separated by a small, rickety structure of tarot cards - swords only.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:09 PM on August 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
You just perfectly described what could be the contents of a Green Box (impromptu storage for weird, eldritch artifacts) from the horror role playing game Delta Green.
In fact, I'm stealing the plutonium idea.
posted by Gelatin at 1:13 PM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
In fact, I'm stealing the plutonium idea.
posted by Gelatin at 1:13 PM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
evidenceofabsence > I think the gambit is more like, “Do outrageous things. If your opponents fail to act, keep going. If they try to hold you accountable, use that as an excuse to weaponize the tools of state against your enemies at your next possible opportunity. When confronted, claim that your opponents set a precedent for what you’re doing by going after you.”
See Trump’s full statement following FBI raid on his Mar-a-Lago home, The Independent Staff, August 8, 2022 (scroll below the video for text). Imgur also has a screenshot of his ‘Save America’ statement posted on Trump’s Truth Social platform.
Once you start lying bigly, you can never stop spinning the web. The Donald is immune to any morality that others may have about telling the truth or lies. The only thing that matters to Trump at any moment is whatever gives him influence, power, and money.
posted by cenoxo at 1:19 PM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
See Trump’s full statement following FBI raid on his Mar-a-Lago home, The Independent Staff, August 8, 2022 (scroll below the video for text). Imgur also has a screenshot of his ‘Save America’ statement posted on Trump’s Truth Social platform.
Once you start lying bigly, you can never stop spinning the web. The Donald is immune to any morality that others may have about telling the truth or lies. The only thing that matters to Trump at any moment is whatever gives him influence, power, and money.
posted by cenoxo at 1:19 PM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
Disgraced former Governor of New York unhappy with FBI raid - wants it explained.
LOL…..and for the sake of clarifying my thoughts on this….LMFAO. Pretty sure he just doesn't like the precedent that former executive office holders may actually be subject to the law.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:37 PM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
LOL…..and for the sake of clarifying my thoughts on this….LMFAO. Pretty sure he just doesn't like the precedent that former executive office holders may actually be subject to the law.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:37 PM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
“These are dark times for our Nation, as my beautiful home, Mar-A-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, is currently under siege, raided, and occupied by a large group of FBI agents,” Trump said in a lengthy email statement issued by his Save America political committee. (NBC News) Trump is not at Mar-a-Lago, his winter residence. [...] Of how Monday's law enforcement action might affect Trump’s political aspirations, a person close to Trump said: “If he wasn’t running before, he is now.” The source, who was not authorized to speak publicly, appeared to be suggesting that Trump might benefit from being an active candidate for the presidency if he faces legal jeopardy.
Molding the narrative again, for more fundraisers.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:01 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Molding the narrative again, for more fundraisers.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:01 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Other things found in the safe at Mar-a-Lago (my blog)
posted by bigbigdog at 2:10 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bigbigdog at 2:10 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Huh. Of all the things I thought would never happen this was pretty high up on the list.
For Garland the cautious to sign off on something like this they must have been damn sure there was something there to get.
Also, why the fuck hasn't Biden replaced Trump's FBI head? Did we learn NOTHING from Comey? You don't fucking put/keep Republicans in high ranking positions.
posted by sotonohito at 2:35 PM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
For Garland the cautious to sign off on something like this they must have been damn sure there was something there to get.
Also, why the fuck hasn't Biden replaced Trump's FBI head? Did we learn NOTHING from Comey? You don't fucking put/keep Republicans in high ranking positions.
posted by sotonohito at 2:35 PM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
From the same NBC News article: “Trump is not at Mar-a-Lago, his winter residence. He often spends his summers at Trump National Golf Club Bedminster in New Jersey.” So much for the Trump supporters stand[ing] outside his Mar-a-Lago residence on Monday evening (Giorgio Viera/AFP - Getty Images).
The Donald has a lot of hidey-holes to run to — Take a look at the golf courses owned by Donald Trump, Golfweek, July 28, 2022 — but since he’s accompanied by his taxpayer-funded Secret Service detail, he can’t really hide.
I like to think they’re protecting us from him.
posted by cenoxo at 2:42 PM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
![Trump supporters stand[ing] outside his Mar-a-Lago residence on Monday evening](https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-2000w,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2022-08/220808-trump-supporters-mar-a-lago-mb-0754-9b1c64.jpg){kind=link}
The Donald has a lot of hidey-holes to run to — Take a look at the golf courses owned by Donald Trump, Golfweek, July 28, 2022 — but since he’s accompanied by his taxpayer-funded Secret Service detail, he can’t really hide.
I like to think they’re protecting us from him.
posted by cenoxo at 2:42 PM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Thanks to everyone who's posted info and funny tweets. Here's one of the latter that I just came across: ".@FBI do an unboxing video"
posted by May Kasahara at 2:53 PM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by May Kasahara at 2:53 PM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
Honestly thinking Ivana was his best defense.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:55 PM on August 9, 2022
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:55 PM on August 9, 2022
This is a smart assessment of what might well have happened:
managing expectations.
sorry, it's this twitter thing.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:57 PM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
managing expectations.
sorry, it's this twitter thing.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:57 PM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
The irony of pointing the governmental instability of certain underdeveloped countries, It's often because of foreign meddling. The CIA were notorious for this in South America. So it's a bit rich to point at their woes as an example of what not to do. Motherfucker you trained the death squads!
posted by adept256 at 3:06 PM on August 9, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 3:06 PM on August 9, 2022 [14 favorites]
The judge who is believed to have signed the Mar-a-Largo search warrant, Judge Bruce Reinhardt, has had his info pulled off the Palm Beach Federal Court web site today. (paywalled, alas).
The court web site now just says "access denied."
posted by bz at 3:15 PM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
The court web site now just says "access denied."
posted by bz at 3:15 PM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
under siege, raided, and occupied by a large group of FBI agents
Siege? They surrounded Mar-a-lago and starved them out? In what? 5 seconds?
posted by srboisvert at 3:17 PM on August 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
Siege? They surrounded Mar-a-lago and starved them out? In what? 5 seconds?
posted by srboisvert at 3:17 PM on August 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
Judge Bruce Reinhardt
was appointed in 2018. Does that mean he's a Trump appointee? I think so. Wray too. There goes the argument that it's a democratic plot. Not that facts ever stop them.
posted by adept256 at 3:46 PM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
was appointed in 2018. Does that mean he's a Trump appointee? I think so. Wray too. There goes the argument that it's a democratic plot. Not that facts ever stop them.
posted by adept256 at 3:46 PM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
Violent rhetoric circulates on the pro-Trump internet following FBI search, including from a Jan. 6 rioter [CNN Lite]
"Lock and load"posted by glonous keming at 4:05 PM on August 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
"Garland needs to be assassinated. Simple as that."
"kill all feds."
Siege? They surrounded Mar-a-lago and starved them out? In what? 5 seconds?
Were there trebuchets? Please tell me there were trebuchets.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:11 PM on August 9, 2022 [19 favorites]
Were there trebuchets? Please tell me there were trebuchets.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:11 PM on August 9, 2022 [19 favorites]
Were there trebuchets? Please tell me there were trebuchets
There were. The first two payloads were Lindsey Graham and Ron Johnson, thus the 5 second duration.
posted by skyscraper at 4:33 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
There were. The first two payloads were Lindsey Graham and Ron Johnson, thus the 5 second duration.
posted by skyscraper at 4:33 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yippee!
posted by kirkaracha at 4:42 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 4:42 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
The Washington Post has published at least two hand-wringing posts about how the FBI has really effed up with this raid. I wonder what that's all about.
posted by LindsayIrene at 5:00 PM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 5:00 PM on August 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
"Lock and load"
"Garland needs to be assassinated. Simple as that."
"kill all feds."
The reason why prominent right wing figures won't publicly break ties with Trump is extremely simple, direct, and easy to understand.
posted by EatTheWeek at 5:12 PM on August 9, 2022 [17 favorites]
"Garland needs to be assassinated. Simple as that."
"kill all feds."
The reason why prominent right wing figures won't publicly break ties with Trump is extremely simple, direct, and easy to understand.
posted by EatTheWeek at 5:12 PM on August 9, 2022 [17 favorites]
> It’s interesting this has happened right after the LIV golf tournament at Trump’s property. I haven’t seen anyone else mention that. Is it possible he handed over or promised documents to the Saudis or someone else at that event?
he also recently met with victor orban while he was in the US
posted by Clowder of bats at 5:20 PM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
he also recently met with victor orban while he was in the US
posted by Clowder of bats at 5:20 PM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Washington Post has published at least two hand-wringing posts about how the FBI has really effed up with this raid.
Here's a non-paywalled version of one of those editorials, by Marc Thiessen. He talks about Sandy Berger's destruction of classified materials in the Clinton administration, and concludes with: "if the Justice Department now tries to prosecute Trump for the same crimes for which it declined to prosecute Hillary Clinton, it will cause Republicans to rally around him."
So basically Hillary should have been punished because Sandy Berger was punished, but Trump shouldn't be punished because Hillary wasn't.
My takeaway is that we're about to hear even more "but her emails!" from the right.
posted by swift at 5:35 PM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
Here's a non-paywalled version of one of those editorials, by Marc Thiessen. He talks about Sandy Berger's destruction of classified materials in the Clinton administration, and concludes with: "if the Justice Department now tries to prosecute Trump for the same crimes for which it declined to prosecute Hillary Clinton, it will cause Republicans to rally around him."
So basically Hillary should have been punished because Sandy Berger was punished, but Trump shouldn't be punished because Hillary wasn't.
My takeaway is that we're about to hear even more "but her emails!" from the right.
posted by swift at 5:35 PM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
Marc Thiessen and Hugh Hewitt are the Washington Post's resident fascist apologizers. Everything they write is going to be right wing as hell, with the quiet bits dog whistled softly enough for plausible deniability from people who don't think in terms of exestential dread whipped up by a news channel to sell fear. Why they still have jobs, I'll never know. But they do provide a glimpse at what the intelligentsia of the right wing is convincing themselves of.
posted by Jacen at 5:44 PM on August 9, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 5:44 PM on August 9, 2022 [26 favorites]
I’m going to develop a browser extension to block those smug twerps Thiessen and Hewitt. Talk about punchable faces.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 5:56 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 5:56 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
And of the two, Marc is in my opinion, far more dangerous. Hugh writes like he's on his conservative radio show, preaching to the choir. It's bland regurgitation of talking points without much insight or depth. It's for the white people who want a calm old white man to soothingly feed their beliefs and prejudices. Marc, however, targets the independents and those without strong views. He's smart enough to use actual persuasive rhetoric, facts and almost truths. On a surface view, he can make sense. If you know how he's twisting things, leaving out the most pertinent facts or the ones most damaging to his case, you can see it for the bigoted and vile poison it truly is.
posted by Jacen at 5:57 PM on August 9, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 5:57 PM on August 9, 2022 [13 favorites]
What We Do and Don’t Know about the FBI’s Mar-a-Lago Search, Lawfare; Scott R. Anderson, Matt Gluck, Quinta Jurecic, Tyler McBrien, Natalie K. Orpett, Katherine Pompilio, Alan Z. Rozenshtein, Tia Sewell, Benjamin Wittes; Tuesday, August 9, 2022:
posted by cenoxo at 6:32 PM on August 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
The FBI’s surprise search of former President Trump’s residence has raised unanswered questions and engendered wide speculation. Here is a guide for the perplexed.Details in the article.
…
Is this a big deal?
Yes.
posted by cenoxo at 6:32 PM on August 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
Republican Rep. Scott Perry says FBI has seized his cell phone.
posted by Mitheral at 6:45 PM on August 9, 2022 [23 favorites]
"This morning, while traveling with my family, 3 FBI agents visited me and seized my cell phone,"
posted by Mitheral at 6:45 PM on August 9, 2022 [23 favorites]
Even better he is pissed the FBI didn't contact his lawyer to arrange for surrender of the phone.
posted by Mitheral at 6:50 PM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 6:50 PM on August 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
cenoxo's link above says that 18 U.S.C § 2071 is a big ol' nothingburger
posted by glonous keming at 6:52 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by glonous keming at 6:52 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Consider the caliber of lawyers retained by and/or allied with Donald Trump during his post-electoral legal coup attempts.
Who could possibly rise to this occasion and be Trump's head legal counsel?
...Somewhere, Orly Taitz glances at a phone that just started ringing.
posted by delfin at 7:17 PM on August 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
Who could possibly rise to this occasion and be Trump's head legal counsel?
...Somewhere, Orly Taitz glances at a phone that just started ringing.
posted by delfin at 7:17 PM on August 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
How soon until Trump declares himself a candidate for 2024?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:45 PM on August 9, 2022
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:45 PM on August 9, 2022
When the fundraising starts to flag.
posted by mochapickle at 7:47 PM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 7:47 PM on August 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
when he gets arrested, of course
posted by pyramid termite at 8:04 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 8:04 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Trump-LaRouche 2024: It Could Happen Here!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:10 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:10 PM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Trump-LaRouche 2024: It Could Happen Here!
posted by They sucked his brains out!
Eponynomuwashisaterical
posted by The otter lady at 8:46 PM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out!
Eponynomuwashisaterical
posted by The otter lady at 8:46 PM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
cenoxo's link above says that 18 U.S.C § 2071 is a big ol' nothingburger
Sure, but there's no reason that we can't relentlessly beat the drum that Trump stole classified material. Who knows what state secrets he's leaked intentionally or unintentionally.
posted by Mister Cheese at 8:57 PM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
Sure, but there's no reason that we can't relentlessly beat the drum that Trump stole classified material. Who knows what state secrets he's leaked intentionally or unintentionally.
posted by Mister Cheese at 8:57 PM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
pleasearresthimbeforehedeclarespleasegodarresthimbeforehedeclares.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:35 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:35 PM on August 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
> Even better he is pissed the FBI didn't contact his lawyer to arrange for surrender of the phone.
Umm, perhaps he has managed to keep himself completely unaware of the many troves of text messages that have managed to disappear themselves after being put under the supposedly tender care of relevant agency lawyers . . .
Or in plain language: Smart people don't give criminals any opportunity to destroy the evidence of their crimes.
posted by flug at 10:37 PM on August 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
Umm, perhaps he has managed to keep himself completely unaware of the many troves of text messages that have managed to disappear themselves after being put under the supposedly tender care of relevant agency lawyers . . .
Or in plain language: Smart people don't give criminals any opportunity to destroy the evidence of their crimes.
posted by flug at 10:37 PM on August 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
"This morning, while traveling with my family, 3 FBI agents visited me and seized my cell phone,"
Cameras were ready
posted by adept256 at 1:29 AM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Cameras were ready
posted by adept256 at 1:29 AM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
FBI searched Trump’s home seeking classified presidential records – sources
Search warrant executed by FBI agents suggests investigation comes with potentially far-reaching political ramifications for former president
From today's Guardian, summing up mostly what we know already.
The sources seem to be Trump's lawyers, which may be kind of iffy.
Search warrant executed by FBI agents suggests investigation comes with potentially far-reaching political ramifications for former president
From today's Guardian, summing up mostly what we know already.
The sources seem to be Trump's lawyers, which may be kind of iffy.
The unprecedented raid of a former president’s home by FBI agents was the culmination of an extended battle between Trump and his open contempt for the Presidential Records Act of 1978 requiring the preservation of official documents, and officials charged with enforcing that law.posted by mumimor at 2:19 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
For years, Trump has ignored the statute. But the criminal investigation into how he took dozens of boxes of presidential and classified records in apparent violation of that statute when he left the White House last year signals potential legal jeopardy for him for the first time.
The Washington Post has published at least two hand-wringing posts about how the FBI has really effed up with this raid.
Yesterday, the NPR program Fresh Air rebroadcast an interview with WaPo reporter Dana Milbank about his book on the Republican Party's long embrace of Orwellian politics, from the Brooks Brothers riot to Swift Boating John Kerry to the Benghazi investigations. To his credit, Milbank didn't waste time with bothsidesing -- he clearly identified the Republican Party as engaging in personal attacks and projection. But the listener was left to wonder, if the Republicans are so obviously a threat to democracy -- and they are -- why does his own paper publish bothsidesing hogwash and truth-free Republican propaganda?
posted by Gelatin at 4:44 AM on August 10, 2022 [12 favorites]
Yesterday, the NPR program Fresh Air rebroadcast an interview with WaPo reporter Dana Milbank about his book on the Republican Party's long embrace of Orwellian politics, from the Brooks Brothers riot to Swift Boating John Kerry to the Benghazi investigations. To his credit, Milbank didn't waste time with bothsidesing -- he clearly identified the Republican Party as engaging in personal attacks and projection. But the listener was left to wonder, if the Republicans are so obviously a threat to democracy -- and they are -- why does his own paper publish bothsidesing hogwash and truth-free Republican propaganda?
posted by Gelatin at 4:44 AM on August 10, 2022 [12 favorites]
Trump will be questioned as New York’s civil investigation nears an end. NYTimes
(This is about something completely different).
posted by mumimor at 4:45 AM on August 10, 2022 [12 favorites]
(This is about something completely different).
posted by mumimor at 4:45 AM on August 10, 2022 [12 favorites]
Trump will be questioned as New York’s civil investigation nears an end. NYTimes
(This is about something completely different).
Under oath, no less.
posted by Gelatin at 4:51 AM on August 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
(This is about something completely different).
Under oath, no less.
posted by Gelatin at 4:51 AM on August 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
- why does his own paper publish bothsidesing hogwash and truth-free Republican propaganda?
Personally, I sometimes like to read those columns, to get an impression of what these people are trying to convince themselves, and be prepared for the crazy uncle holiday discussions.
Maybe, in this day and age, there should be a clear indication that the authors are spreading insane propaganda and are not in line with the NYTimes editorial board.
posted by mumimor at 5:11 AM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Personally, I sometimes like to read those columns, to get an impression of what these people are trying to convince themselves, and be prepared for the crazy uncle holiday discussions.
Maybe, in this day and age, there should be a clear indication that the authors are spreading insane propaganda and are not in line with the NYTimes editorial board.
posted by mumimor at 5:11 AM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
The columns in question were in the Washington Post, not the New York Times, but if memory serves me correctly, Paul Krugman has noted that the NYT has, or at least had, a policy against its columnists calling other columnists out on obvious bullshit (*cough*DavidBrooks*cough*).
Which means, the policy of the NYT editorial page is objectively pro-bullshit, and in ways obviously tailored to give aid and comfort to bad conservative arguments (but I repeat myself).
posted by Gelatin at 5:16 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Which means, the policy of the NYT editorial page is objectively pro-bullshit, and in ways obviously tailored to give aid and comfort to bad conservative arguments (but I repeat myself).
posted by Gelatin at 5:16 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
The right is amplifying the word unprecedented as if never happened before means that it shouldn't happen at all.
I was listening to local public radio here in Vermont where they were interviewing people around the state about what they wanted form the election; and they interviewed a couple who have put their house up for sale and want to move to "Iowa or Tennessee" and the husband kept repeating "unprecedented" in his reaction to the raid as he obviously has been watch Fox. The wife said what she wants to see from the election is to "get rid of the Democrats." When the reporter asked them if they were worried about Democracy the husband chimed in to say he is worried about the Republic and that Democracy and the Republic aren't the same thing.
Sigh.
posted by terrapin at 5:33 AM on August 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
I was listening to local public radio here in Vermont where they were interviewing people around the state about what they wanted form the election; and they interviewed a couple who have put their house up for sale and want to move to "Iowa or Tennessee" and the husband kept repeating "unprecedented" in his reaction to the raid as he obviously has been watch Fox. The wife said what she wants to see from the election is to "get rid of the Democrats." When the reporter asked them if they were worried about Democracy the husband chimed in to say he is worried about the Republic and that Democracy and the Republic aren't the same thing.
Sigh.
posted by terrapin at 5:33 AM on August 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
The right is amplifying the word unprecedented as if never happened before means that it shouldn't happen at all.
They aren't entirely wrong; Trump interfering with the peaceful transfer of power was also unprecedented.
posted by Gelatin at 5:37 AM on August 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
They aren't entirely wrong; Trump interfering with the peaceful transfer of power was also unprecedented.
posted by Gelatin at 5:37 AM on August 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
Now with captions!
I love this so much. I haven't made a meme in 10 years, but this is too glorious to pass by. They think they're so fucking clever. They think they can bullshit their way out of anything. Now the feds are asking questions and they're coming with warrants. I fucking love it.
posted by adept256 at 5:51 AM on August 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
I love this so much. I haven't made a meme in 10 years, but this is too glorious to pass by. They think they're so fucking clever. They think they can bullshit their way out of anything. Now the feds are asking questions and they're coming with warrants. I fucking love it.
posted by adept256 at 5:51 AM on August 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yeah, this is very much a ‘have your cake and eat it too’ thing that they can’t seem to wrap their heads around, and no one seems to be able or willing to respond with - they wanted and voted for a President who didn’t play by the rules. They wanted and voted for a President who built an entire presidency around doing unprecedented things.
Thread the needle, people. The guy you voted for said “Unprecedented” right on the label.
posted by Mchelly at 5:51 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thread the needle, people. The guy you voted for said “Unprecedented” right on the label.
posted by Mchelly at 5:51 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Jokin Rokin Rokin Tolkien @ joshcarlosjoshposted by sebastienbailard at 5:54 AM on August 10, 2022 [30 favorites]
I'm no Sauron fan, but here's why forming a fellowship to raid Mount Doom and destroy the One Ring is going to enrage his base
2:27 p.m.. 09 Aug. 22. Tweet
They aren't entirely wrong; Trump interfering with the peaceful transfer of power was also unprecedented.
Agreed. And being impeached twice is also unprecedented. And there are many more examples. But is that going to get through? Rhetorical. It won't.
posted by terrapin at 6:02 AM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Agreed. And being impeached twice is also unprecedented. And there are many more examples. But is that going to get through? Rhetorical. It won't.
posted by terrapin at 6:02 AM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
When the reporter asked them if they were worried about Democracy the husband chimed in to say he is worried about the Republic and that Democracy and the Republic aren't the same thing.
He isn't wrong, exactly; a republic can be based on democratic principles, nor not.
But the open embrace of this thinking by the right wing is yet another admission that they have given up on persuading a majority and instead are pushing for minority rule.
We don't have to let them, but it'd be nice if the so-called "liberal media" would recognize the threat Republicans pose, to their own freedom if nothing else. Do they really think the fascist dictatorship the Republicans want to impose will respect their First Amendment rights, or the Republican stacked Supreme Court will either?
posted by Gelatin at 6:11 AM on August 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
He isn't wrong, exactly; a republic can be based on democratic principles, nor not.
But the open embrace of this thinking by the right wing is yet another admission that they have given up on persuading a majority and instead are pushing for minority rule.
We don't have to let them, but it'd be nice if the so-called "liberal media" would recognize the threat Republicans pose, to their own freedom if nothing else. Do they really think the fascist dictatorship the Republicans want to impose will respect their First Amendment rights, or the Republican stacked Supreme Court will either?
posted by Gelatin at 6:11 AM on August 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
This photo still enrages me. Was there precedence for POTUS laughing it up while sharing classified info with our enemies in the Oval? That's a big nope asfuck
Yet somehow it seems innocent compared to where we are now
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 6:15 AM on August 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yet somehow it seems innocent compared to where we are now
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 6:15 AM on August 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
Trump will be questioned as New York’s civil investigation nears an end. NYTimes
(This is about something completely different).
Under oath, no less.
PLEASE tell me that Tish James will be doing the questioning.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:29 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
(This is about something completely different).
Under oath, no less.
PLEASE tell me that Tish James will be doing the questioning.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:29 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
The right is amplifying the word unprecedented as if never happened before means that it shouldn't happen at all.
Isn't this their ethos? They're conservatives. They stand athwart History yelling, "Stop!"
They don't want new things happening. They want nothing new to ever happen again. They want old things to come back. Kings are an old thing and they want one.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:34 AM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
Isn't this their ethos? They're conservatives. They stand athwart History yelling, "Stop!"
They don't want new things happening. They want nothing new to ever happen again. They want old things to come back. Kings are an old thing and they want one.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:34 AM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
OH THANK YOU BABY JESUS TISH JAMES IS INDEED QUESTIONING TRUMP
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:46 AM on August 10, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:46 AM on August 10, 2022 [15 favorites]
The guy you voted for said “Unprecedented” right on the label.
"Unpresidented"
posted by Optamystic at 6:46 AM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Unpresidented"
posted by Optamystic at 6:46 AM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Trump will be questioned as New York’s civil investigation nears an end. NYTimes
(This is about something completely different).
Fortunately for anyone with a short memory, it’s the same egotistical, narcissistic, lying, truthless, cheating, stealing, corrupt, chaotic, wannabe dictator, and criminal Donald Trump that we’ve come to know and love.
posted by cenoxo at 6:49 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
(This is about something completely different).
Fortunately for anyone with a short memory, it’s the same egotistical, narcissistic, lying, truthless, cheating, stealing, corrupt, chaotic, wannabe dictator, and criminal Donald Trump that we’ve come to know and love.
posted by cenoxo at 6:49 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Politico: Why the Trump search warrant is nothing like Hillary's emails
Trump "signed a law in 2018 that stiffened the penalty for the unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents from one year to five years, turning it into a felony offense", and if he goes to prison for five years under that law.... oh my God, the irony, it burns.
posted by orange swan at 6:59 AM on August 10, 2022 [36 favorites]
Trump "signed a law in 2018 that stiffened the penalty for the unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents from one year to five years, turning it into a felony offense", and if he goes to prison for five years under that law.... oh my God, the irony, it burns.
posted by orange swan at 6:59 AM on August 10, 2022 [36 favorites]
> ‘have your cake and eat it too’
A.R. Moxon @JuliusGoatposted by sebastienbailard at 7:00 AM on August 10, 2022 [32 favorites]
Hypocrisy is a virtue, to fascists.
It's how they know they will be permitted to do that which they will not permit others to do. It's the vouchsafe of their only true principle, which is domination over others.
8:53 AM · Sep 11, 2020·Twitter
Politico: Why the Trump search warrant is nothing like Hillary's emails
Because unlike Butter Emails, violations of the Presidential Records Act and unauthorized taking of classified documents are actually illegal.
It's a sad commentary that the news media flogged the Butter Emails nothingburger so much that they feel they have to explain that this time the charges are serious.
posted by Gelatin at 7:02 AM on August 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
Because unlike Butter Emails, violations of the Presidential Records Act and unauthorized taking of classified documents are actually illegal.
It's a sad commentary that the news media flogged the Butter Emails nothingburger so much that they feel they have to explain that this time the charges are serious.
posted by Gelatin at 7:02 AM on August 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
Hypocrisy is a virtue, to fascists.
It's how they know they will be permitted to do that which they will not permit others to do. It's the vouchsafe of their only true principle, which is domination over others.
Yes, exactly! They aren't embarrassed in the least by charges of hypocrisy; the double standard is the point, and flaunting it an assertion of power.
posted by Gelatin at 7:03 AM on August 10, 2022 [15 favorites]
It's how they know they will be permitted to do that which they will not permit others to do. It's the vouchsafe of their only true principle, which is domination over others.
Yes, exactly! They aren't embarrassed in the least by charges of hypocrisy; the double standard is the point, and flaunting it an assertion of power.
posted by Gelatin at 7:03 AM on August 10, 2022 [15 favorites]
oh my God, the irony, it burns
Sweeter still if he gets sentenced by one of his judicial appointees.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 7:32 AM on August 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
Sweeter still if he gets sentenced by one of his judicial appointees.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 7:32 AM on August 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
When the reporter asked them if they were worried about Democracy the husband chimed in to say he is worried about the Republic and that Democracy and the Republic aren't the same thing.
Every time a right-winger shrieks about a "banana republic" I want to smugly correct them with "banana democracy."
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:34 AM on August 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
Every time a right-winger shrieks about a "banana republic" I want to smugly correct them with "banana democracy."
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:34 AM on August 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
Oh BOOOOO Trump pled the 5th to everything
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:38 AM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:38 AM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
Oh BOOOOO Trump pled the 5th to everything
This is your regular reminder that while a court isn't allowed to infer a presumption of guilt from invoking the Fifth, the public at large is absolutely entitled to do so.
posted by Gelatin at 7:42 AM on August 10, 2022 [19 favorites]
This is your regular reminder that while a court isn't allowed to infer a presumption of guilt from invoking the Fifth, the public at large is absolutely entitled to do so.
posted by Gelatin at 7:42 AM on August 10, 2022 [19 favorites]
Trump pled the 5th to everything
Why, that's not suspicious at all...
posted by mumimor at 7:42 AM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Why, that's not suspicious at all...
posted by mumimor at 7:42 AM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Like you see on the mob, right? You see, the mob takes the Fifth. If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?"
posted by kirkaracha at 7:50 AM on August 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 7:50 AM on August 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
What We Do and Don’t Know about the FBI’s Mar-a-Lago Search, Lawfare
That lead photo is giving me serious Fall of Saigon associations and reader, I am present to commemorate the similarity.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:55 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
That lead photo is giving me serious Fall of Saigon associations and reader, I am present to commemorate the similarity.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:55 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Wait does this mean he's got an actual lawyer advising him? wtf.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:56 AM on August 10, 2022
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:56 AM on August 10, 2022
The best part is watching Republicans call for violence. They know they will pay no cost when someone takes them up on it. Guaranteed win-win. (Except for the dead. Fuck them.)
This is the kind of rhetoric that only increases over time. There is no release valve, no dial that turns it down. You make political points by calling for civil war and violence? You will do that again, and again, and again.
posted by bigbigdog at 7:57 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is the kind of rhetoric that only increases over time. There is no release valve, no dial that turns it down. You make political points by calling for civil war and violence? You will do that again, and again, and again.
posted by bigbigdog at 7:57 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Wait does this mean he's got an actual lawyer advising him? wtf.
For me the surprise is not that the lawyer would advise him to take the 5th, as surely any lawyer, even a mediocre or incompetent or unprincipled one, would do that, but that Cheeto would actually follow their advice. Even he knows that the walls are closing in.
posted by orange swan at 8:04 AM on August 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
For me the surprise is not that the lawyer would advise him to take the 5th, as surely any lawyer, even a mediocre or incompetent or unprincipled one, would do that, but that Cheeto would actually follow their advice. Even he knows that the walls are closing in.
posted by orange swan at 8:04 AM on August 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
For me the surprise is not that the lawyer would advise him to take the 5th, as surely any lawyer, even a mediocre or incompetent or unprincipled one, would do that, but that Cheeto would actually follow their advice.
I read a statement he released on Truth Social where he spins it like "the system behind this investigation is rigged and they would have used anything I said against me and so I had to do that to protect myself boo hoo".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:13 AM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I read a statement he released on Truth Social where he spins it like "the system behind this investigation is rigged and they would have used anything I said against me and so I had to do that to protect myself boo hoo".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:13 AM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but it says a lot that he runs his mouth on social media but clams up under oath.
posted by Gelatin at 8:14 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 8:14 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
How to recognize one’s true friend(s): Russia’s Trump Raid Tantrum Is a Spectacle You Don’t Want to Miss — The FBI raid on Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence has reduced the Kremlin’s cronies to live TV hysterics, The Daily Beast, Julia Davis, Aug. 09, 2022:
posted by cenoxo at 8:18 AM on August 10, 2022 [8 favorites]
The FBI raid on former U.S. President Donald J. Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence in Florida triggered shockwaves across Russia, with outraged Kremlin propagandists rushing to defend their favorite American president and going so far as to predict that the raid will eventually spark a civil war in the United States.More outrage in the article.
When Trump lost the last presidential election to Joe Biden, experts and pundits in Moscow worried out loud that his prosecution for a bevy of potential offenses is imminent. They even contemplated offering their beloved “Trumpushka” asylum in Russia. As time went by, Putin’s mouthpieces became convinced that Trump was in the clear, and their fears subsided.
On Monday’s broadcast of The Evening With Vladimir Solovyov, the host and his panelists praised the participants of the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) and expressed their admiration for Trump and his allies. The same day, appearing on state TV program 60 Minutes, military expert Igor Korotchenko openly called for Russia to support Trump’s candidacy in the 2024 elections.
News of the raid landed in Moscow with a thud, as angry propagandists embellished the search with made-up details, claiming that “one hundred FBI agents” and hordes of police dogs rummaged through Mar-a-Lago….
posted by cenoxo at 8:18 AM on August 10, 2022 [8 favorites]
This is your regular reminder that while a court isn't allowed to infer a presumption of guilt from invoking the Fifth, the public at large is absolutely entitled to do so.
As usual there's two publics, the one that will take this as yet more evidence of guilt, and the one that will love this because it's STICKING IT TO THE MAN and foiling the libs and protesting righteously against witch hunt persecution. Trump's a strong man, doesn't play anybody's game! Etc.
posted by trig at 8:37 AM on August 10, 2022
As usual there's two publics, the one that will take this as yet more evidence of guilt, and the one that will love this because it's STICKING IT TO THE MAN and foiling the libs and protesting righteously against witch hunt persecution. Trump's a strong man, doesn't play anybody's game! Etc.
posted by trig at 8:37 AM on August 10, 2022
This is your regular reminder that while a court isn't allowed to infer a presumption of guilt from invoking the Fifth, the public at large is absolutely entitled to do so.
In one of the countless articles linked above, I learnt that this is a bit different when it comes to civil law, in the sense that the jury/judge is allowed to take into account that the defendant won't speak the truth. Can someone expand on this?
posted by mumimor at 8:47 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
In one of the countless articles linked above, I learnt that this is a bit different when it comes to civil law, in the sense that the jury/judge is allowed to take into account that the defendant won't speak the truth. Can someone expand on this?
posted by mumimor at 8:47 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah, but it says a lot that he runs his mouth on social media but clams up under oath.
. . . and his lawyers all claim conspiracy, theft, fraud, and now planted evidence until they have to stand before a judge.
posted by cmfletcher at 9:20 AM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
. . . and his lawyers all claim conspiracy, theft, fraud, and now planted evidence until they have to stand before a judge.
posted by cmfletcher at 9:20 AM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Hate to be that guy, but the NYC civil suit won't matter in the long run nor will the raid on MAL. This is yet another example of Trump getting caught then playing the victim and it works to motivate his base. He can plead the 5th all he wants, he might lose this civil case in NYC and end up paying a multi-million dollar fine (so his base who sends him $20 is going to pay the fine). Trump University et al, lather, rinse, repeat.
Best case they charge him with something criminal (my dream is they caught him selling classified info to a foreign coughcoughRussiancough agent, but I digress). He's going to claim he can't get a fair trial in the US because they won't be able to find an unbiased jury anywhere in the US. He won't plead and it'll be a constitutional crisis or worse the DOJ will buckle and look like clowns. And when it makes the most sense, he'll declare he's running in 2024 and then climb right up on the cross next to White & Blue-eyed Jesus.
I cannot imagine the damage another Trump presidency will cause. His mistake last time was not appointing 100% MAGA lackeys to every one of the 4,000+ administrative roles every president gets to fill. Next GOP president we'll have people running major agencies like the MyPillow guy - completely incompetent but totally loyal and out for blood for everyone who isn't loyal. And the recent talk about Generals not being loyal enough - how do you recover if Trump "appoints" someone like Flynn to the JCOS? it's traitors all the way down. They're already talking about this openly on Fox so they're thinking it through.
Right now I'm praying SCOTUS delivers a few more completely out-of-touch rulings like Dobbs so that turn out in 2022 and 2024 are dominated by the Democrats. 1/3rd of eligible voters sat out 2020, they need to get to the voting booth (yes, I know it's hard).
posted by Farce_First at 9:42 AM on August 10, 2022 [12 favorites]
Best case they charge him with something criminal (my dream is they caught him selling classified info to a foreign coughcoughRussiancough agent, but I digress). He's going to claim he can't get a fair trial in the US because they won't be able to find an unbiased jury anywhere in the US. He won't plead and it'll be a constitutional crisis or worse the DOJ will buckle and look like clowns. And when it makes the most sense, he'll declare he's running in 2024 and then climb right up on the cross next to White & Blue-eyed Jesus.
I cannot imagine the damage another Trump presidency will cause. His mistake last time was not appointing 100% MAGA lackeys to every one of the 4,000+ administrative roles every president gets to fill. Next GOP president we'll have people running major agencies like the MyPillow guy - completely incompetent but totally loyal and out for blood for everyone who isn't loyal. And the recent talk about Generals not being loyal enough - how do you recover if Trump "appoints" someone like Flynn to the JCOS? it's traitors all the way down. They're already talking about this openly on Fox so they're thinking it through.
Right now I'm praying SCOTUS delivers a few more completely out-of-touch rulings like Dobbs so that turn out in 2022 and 2024 are dominated by the Democrats. 1/3rd of eligible voters sat out 2020, they need to get to the voting booth (yes, I know it's hard).
posted by Farce_First at 9:42 AM on August 10, 2022 [12 favorites]
This is yet another example of Trump getting caught then playing the victim and it works to motivate his base.
Who cares what he claims? His base is a minority. His base wasn't enough to get him re-elected. There are more of us than there are of them. You're right that winning involves turning out more decent people, and I daresay most of them recognize, and are outraged by, the accumulating mountain of evidence of Trump's criminality.
posted by Gelatin at 9:47 AM on August 10, 2022 [17 favorites]
Who cares what he claims? His base is a minority. His base wasn't enough to get him re-elected. There are more of us than there are of them. You're right that winning involves turning out more decent people, and I daresay most of them recognize, and are outraged by, the accumulating mountain of evidence of Trump's criminality.
posted by Gelatin at 9:47 AM on August 10, 2022 [17 favorites]
They don't need to outnumber us. They just need to get one of their number onto the jury, if we even get that far.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 9:55 AM on August 10, 2022
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 9:55 AM on August 10, 2022
FWIW, Newsweek is reporting today that (as suspected) an informer ratted out Trump about the precise nature and location of the stolen documents.
There's nothing else new in the story, just a lot of background and anonymous-source hand-wringing about all this backfiring, yadda yadda. So I'll save you a click:
There's nothing else new in the story, just a lot of background and anonymous-source hand-wringing about all this backfiring, yadda yadda. So I'll save you a click:
The raid on Mar-a-Lago was based largely on information from an FBI confidential human source, one who was able to identify what classified documents former President Trump was still hiding and even the location of those documents, two senior government officials told Newsweek.posted by martin q blank at 10:03 AM on August 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
Right now I'm praying SCOTUS delivers a few more completely out-of-touch rulings like Dobbs so that turn out in 2022 and 2024 are dominated by the Democrats. 1/3rd of eligible voters sat out 2020, they need to get to the voting booth (yes, I know it's hard)
to each their own i guess but praying for more shit like Roe vs Wade getting overturned in order to maybe galvanize turnout for Democrats seems like a bad trade to me, on top of being kind of monstrously callous to the suffering of millions in the meantime
posted by lazaruslong at 10:04 AM on August 10, 2022 [57 favorites]
to each their own i guess but praying for more shit like Roe vs Wade getting overturned in order to maybe galvanize turnout for Democrats seems like a bad trade to me, on top of being kind of monstrously callous to the suffering of millions in the meantime
posted by lazaruslong at 10:04 AM on August 10, 2022 [57 favorites]
They know they will pay no cost when someone takes them up on it.
Indeed. Stochastic terrorism by Republicans is a real problem. The media helped the public quickly forget the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting, which was the direct result of decades of GOP white-supremacist rhetoric, amped up further by Trump.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:08 AM on August 10, 2022 [13 favorites]
Indeed. Stochastic terrorism by Republicans is a real problem. The media helped the public quickly forget the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting, which was the direct result of decades of GOP white-supremacist rhetoric, amped up further by Trump.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:08 AM on August 10, 2022 [13 favorites]
The raid on Mar-a-Lago was based largely on information from an FBI confidential human source, one who was able to identify what classified documents former President Trump was still hiding and even the location of those documents, two senior government officials told Newsweek.
Political Wire said this morning that this likelihood has fear and paranoia among Trump's lackeys, already high, amped up to an unprecedented degree.
posted by Gelatin at 10:08 AM on August 10, 2022 [8 favorites]
Political Wire said this morning that this likelihood has fear and paranoia among Trump's lackeys, already high, amped up to an unprecedented degree.
posted by Gelatin at 10:08 AM on August 10, 2022 [8 favorites]
The raid on Mar-a-Lago was based largely on information from an FBI confidential human source
OK, I know this is as opposed to, say, cell phone records or leaked emails or whatever but for just a second I was imagining like a confidential dog source or like a room full of bees or something.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:33 AM on August 10, 2022 [50 favorites]
OK, I know this is as opposed to, say, cell phone records or leaked emails or whatever but for just a second I was imagining like a confidential dog source or like a room full of bees or something.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:33 AM on August 10, 2022 [50 favorites]
Exclusive: An Informer Told the FBI What Docs Trump Was Hiding, and Where
BY WILLIAM M. ARKIN ON 8/10/22 AT 10:03 AM EDT (newsweek.com)
The raid on Mar-a-Lago was based largely on information from an FBI confidential human source, one who was able to identify what classified documents former President Trump was still hiding and even the location of those documents, two senior government officials told Newsweek.
The officials, who have direct knowledge of the FBI's deliberations and were granted anonymity in order to discuss sensitive matters, said the raid of Donald Trump's Florida residence was deliberately timed to occur when the former president was away.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:34 AM on August 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
BY WILLIAM M. ARKIN ON 8/10/22 AT 10:03 AM EDT (newsweek.com)
The raid on Mar-a-Lago was based largely on information from an FBI confidential human source, one who was able to identify what classified documents former President Trump was still hiding and even the location of those documents, two senior government officials told Newsweek.
The officials, who have direct knowledge of the FBI's deliberations and were granted anonymity in order to discuss sensitive matters, said the raid of Donald Trump's Florida residence was deliberately timed to occur when the former president was away.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:34 AM on August 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
my dream is they caught him selling classified info to a foreign coughcoughRussiancough agent, but I digress
My dream is that Alex Jones is involved, and all the documents relate to Jan. 6 and Russian agents funding and organizing it. I also hope they contain records of his own investigation into his worst fear of stolen grades and test scores, because his convicted lawyer once said he was obsessed enough to make threats to schools to protect them at one point, indicating a panic. Of course, Russia hacked everything it could before they started guarding documents and even if they don't have them, all they have to say is that they do.
posted by Brian B. at 10:40 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
My dream is that Alex Jones is involved, and all the documents relate to Jan. 6 and Russian agents funding and organizing it. I also hope they contain records of his own investigation into his worst fear of stolen grades and test scores, because his convicted lawyer once said he was obsessed enough to make threats to schools to protect them at one point, indicating a panic. Of course, Russia hacked everything it could before they started guarding documents and even if they don't have them, all they have to say is that they do.
posted by Brian B. at 10:40 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
He won't plead and it'll be a constitutional crisis or worse the DOJ will buckle and look like clowns.
Constitutional what now? He's a private citizen.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:59 AM on August 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
Constitutional what now? He's a private citizen.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:59 AM on August 10, 2022 [14 favorites]
I think it's most likely that this raid was just to recover classified documents. I'm starting to think that the actual content of the docs isn't at issue, just that he was still in possession and seemed unwilling to hand them over.
I'd love for this to be something more serious, but I'm really worried that it's just going to be the known felony and nothing more. The only thing that gives me any pause is that the FBI/Justice Dept haven't released any additional information, so fingers crossed.
posted by Eddie Mars at 11:00 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'd love for this to be something more serious, but I'm really worried that it's just going to be the known felony and nothing more. The only thing that gives me any pause is that the FBI/Justice Dept haven't released any additional information, so fingers crossed.
posted by Eddie Mars at 11:00 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Constitutional what now? He's a private citizen.
Indeed, I read that if he is convicted of mishandling classified information, the law says he is barred from holding public office.
posted by Gelatin at 11:06 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Indeed, I read that if he is convicted of mishandling classified information, the law says he is barred from holding public office.
posted by Gelatin at 11:06 AM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
“ Indeed, I read that if he is convicted of mishandling classified information, the law says he is barred from holding public office. ”
The consensus among constitutional scholars seems to be that the law in question can’t apply to the election of a president. The requirements for being president are laid out in the constitution and judicial precedent seems to indicate that Congress can’t create additional requirements via regular legislation.
posted by tdismukes at 11:15 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
The consensus among constitutional scholars seems to be that the law in question can’t apply to the election of a president. The requirements for being president are laid out in the constitution and judicial precedent seems to indicate that Congress can’t create additional requirements via regular legislation.
posted by tdismukes at 11:15 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
That's too bad. But still, I recall from 2016 that Republicans are very concerned over security of classified of information, so I'm sure they'll vote accordingly. [/sarcasm]
posted by Gelatin at 11:18 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 11:18 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
(Is that really true, though? Congress surely did pass laws that only apply to the Presidency -- the Presidential Records Act, to name one, violation of which carries criminal penalties, not the threat of impeachment. Then again, the current SCOTUS would rule on the matter, so the only question is which choice the majority believes best benefits the Republican Party.)
posted by Gelatin at 11:21 AM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Gelatin at 11:21 AM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Is that really true, though? Congress surely did pass laws that only apply to the Presidency
Unlike record retention rules the qualifications for federal offices, including the Presidency, are spelled out in the Constitution. But he could serve time and a federal felony is one hell of a brick to use in campaign ads -- wouldn't sway his base, but would pick-off a lot of independents and the few remaining sane republicans.
posted by nathan_teske at 11:29 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Unlike record retention rules the qualifications for federal offices, including the Presidency, are spelled out in the Constitution. But he could serve time and a federal felony is one hell of a brick to use in campaign ads -- wouldn't sway his base, but would pick-off a lot of independents and the few remaining sane republicans.
posted by nathan_teske at 11:29 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
“ Indeed, I read that if he is convicted of mishandling classified information, the law says he is barred from holding public office. ”Lawfare covered this questions pretty well in their recent blog post about the Mar-A-Lago raid (linked further upthread)
The consensus among constitutional scholars seems to be that the law in question can’t apply to the election of a president. The requirements for being president are laid out in the constitution and judicial precedent seems to indicate that Congress can’t create additional requirements via regular legislation.
"Notably, this isn’t the first time in recent memory that this issue has come up. As Charlie Savage has written in the New York Times, a number of prominent Republican lawyers, including former Attorney General Michael Mukasey, suggested that Hillary Clinton’s alleged mismanagement of her emails while Secretary of State could be in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 2071 and thus disqualify her from running for President in the lead-up to the 2016 election. Legal scholars swiftly swooped in to point out the issues with this argument. Mukasey ultimately conceded that § 2071(b) likely cannot disqualify anyone from serving as president"posted by bl1nk at 11:50 AM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Reading law nerds opinions about whether or not some 200yo law may disqualify him I just want to fucking scream. HE DID A FUCKING COUP! THAT DISQUALIFIES HIM!
posted by adept256 at 11:57 AM on August 10, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 11:57 AM on August 10, 2022 [26 favorites]
Reading law nerds opinions about whether or not some 200yo law may disqualify him I just want to fucking scream. HE DID A FUCKING COUP! THAT DISQUALIFIES HIM
That's what impeachment is for… except, you know, the modern republican party plays calvin ball to own the libs instead of governing like fucking adults.
posted by nathan_teske at 12:22 PM on August 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
That's what impeachment is for… except, you know, the modern republican party plays calvin ball to own the libs instead of governing like fucking adults.
posted by nathan_teske at 12:22 PM on August 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
That's what impeachment is for… except, you know, the modern republican party plays calvin ball to own the libs instead of governing like fucking adults.
I doubt the Founders could have imagined Congress not voting unanimously to oust a President who had incited an attack against it.
It's a tell that the Republicans' so-called reverence for the Founders (as opposed to the patriarchal white society they represented) is a fraud.
posted by Gelatin at 12:31 PM on August 10, 2022 [18 favorites]
I doubt the Founders could have imagined Congress not voting unanimously to oust a President who had incited an attack against it.
It's a tell that the Republicans' so-called reverence for the Founders (as opposed to the patriarchal white society they represented) is a fraud.
posted by Gelatin at 12:31 PM on August 10, 2022 [18 favorites]
I was imagining like a confidential dog source or like a room full of bees or something
What a delightful thought. Imagine if a swarm of locusts just followed TFG (does this sand for That Fucking Guy?) everywhere he went. Like there was a constant swarm of them like a cloud around his head. That never, ever left him as an ongoing recognition of his epic failure as a human being. A gal can dream ...
Prison would be better. But apparently thoughts of a bit of magical realism is all I can use for comfort at the moment.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:40 PM on August 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
What a delightful thought. Imagine if a swarm of locusts just followed TFG (does this sand for That Fucking Guy?) everywhere he went. Like there was a constant swarm of them like a cloud around his head. That never, ever left him as an ongoing recognition of his epic failure as a human being. A gal can dream ...
Prison would be better. But apparently thoughts of a bit of magical realism is all I can use for comfort at the moment.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:40 PM on August 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
TFG (does this sand for That Fucking Guy?)
Yes, or "The Former Guy" for non-sweary types.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:50 PM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yes, or "The Former Guy" for non-sweary types.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:50 PM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I recall from 2016 that Republicans are very concerned over security of classified of information
Fox News On Hillary But Make The Footage Trump | The Daily Show
posted by kirkaracha at 12:53 PM on August 10, 2022 [10 favorites]
Fox News On Hillary But Make The Footage Trump | The Daily Show
posted by kirkaracha at 12:53 PM on August 10, 2022 [10 favorites]
there's like two things I've been trying to figure out from the news coverage and discussion, and I can't quite figure it out
1) Opening a safe requires special permission written in the warrant, right? I remember that right from the high school law class? The scope of the search has to be clearly defined.
2) Is there any reason to think the warrant was only written for the classified documents crime? That's the only one being reported so far, but does that mean it's the only one, period? Is there a possibility that the warrant was written for a number of suspected crimes?
all the coverage has convinced me of is that everyone is fudking insane. It's just a fucking search warrant. The FBI are not the Democrats. The only reason it's unprecedented is because Trump himself is unprecedented. Why are people insane.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 1:15 PM on August 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
1) Opening a safe requires special permission written in the warrant, right? I remember that right from the high school law class? The scope of the search has to be clearly defined.
2) Is there any reason to think the warrant was only written for the classified documents crime? That's the only one being reported so far, but does that mean it's the only one, period? Is there a possibility that the warrant was written for a number of suspected crimes?
all the coverage has convinced me of is that everyone is fudking insane. It's just a fucking search warrant. The FBI are not the Democrats. The only reason it's unprecedented is because Trump himself is unprecedented. Why are people insane.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 1:15 PM on August 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
Also, as has likely been mentioned elsewhere, Trump or his lawyers could release a copy of the warrant and an inventory (or redacted inventory) of what was seized and put this all to rest.
I know, will never happen, but could - and would solve all kinds of questions.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:01 PM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
I know, will never happen, but could - and would solve all kinds of questions.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:01 PM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
They would release that info if they felt like it would help their client so the fact that they aren't says a lot.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 2:15 PM on August 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 2:15 PM on August 10, 2022 [11 favorites]
I was imagining like a confidential dog source or like a room full of bees or something
Ha! How ‘bout a nice parrot who memorized some key monologues? Seriously, thanks for the much-needed giggle.
praying for more shit like Roe vs Wade getting overturned in order to maybe galvanize turnout for Democrats seems like a bad trade to me, on top of being kind of monstrously callous to the suffering of millions in the meantime
Flagged as fantastic. Gonna need a big pillow to fit that into needlepoint, because the accelerationists in my own life need this broken to them softly.
posted by armeowda at 2:20 PM on August 10, 2022 [18 favorites]
Ha! How ‘bout a nice parrot who memorized some key monologues? Seriously, thanks for the much-needed giggle.
praying for more shit like Roe vs Wade getting overturned in order to maybe galvanize turnout for Democrats seems like a bad trade to me, on top of being kind of monstrously callous to the suffering of millions in the meantime
Flagged as fantastic. Gonna need a big pillow to fit that into needlepoint, because the accelerationists in my own life need this broken to them softly.
posted by armeowda at 2:20 PM on August 10, 2022 [18 favorites]
Political Wire said this morning that this likelihood has fear and paranoia among Trump's lackeys, already high, amped up to an unprecedented degree.
Let's be real, they are all worried that the being an informant could compromise their exclusive info book deals.
posted by srboisvert at 2:34 PM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Let's be real, they are all worried that the being an informant could compromise their exclusive info book deals.
posted by srboisvert at 2:34 PM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
John Q Public walks into the pharmacy and there are no condoms on the shelf. The clerk explains what happened and that's their WTF moment. They remember this at the polls, fascism averted. Next congress makes access to contraception the law.
The extreme right wish-list is in the pipeline already. Anyone who doesn't think so, well they said that about Roe. This isn't accelerationism, this isn't even bright-siding. This is just pragmatic speculation. When the possible scenarios include full-blown fascism, a short-term jolt to civil rights inspiring a reversal may be the best case scenario.
posted by adept256 at 2:45 PM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
The extreme right wish-list is in the pipeline already. Anyone who doesn't think so, well they said that about Roe. This isn't accelerationism, this isn't even bright-siding. This is just pragmatic speculation. When the possible scenarios include full-blown fascism, a short-term jolt to civil rights inspiring a reversal may be the best case scenario.
posted by adept256 at 2:45 PM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
This isn't accelerationism, this isn't even bright-siding. […] When the possible scenarios include full-blown fascism, a short-term jolt to civil rights inspiring a reversal may be the best case scenario.
That’s literally the “according to Webster’s dictionary” definition of accelerationism, though?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:53 PM on August 10, 2022 [20 favorites]
That’s literally the “according to Webster’s dictionary” definition of accelerationism, though?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:53 PM on August 10, 2022 [20 favorites]
NYT: “Trump and James sat across from each other for hours as he said ‘same answer’ again and again.”
This is a real thing that happened today.
posted by swift at 3:01 PM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is a real thing that happened today.
posted by swift at 3:01 PM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Isn't this their ethos? They're conservatives. They stand athwart History yelling, "Stop!"
They don't want new things happening. They want nothing new to ever happen again. They want old things to come back. Kings are an old thing and they want one.
They are no longer conservatives (if they ever were). This is now an openly extremely radical right-wing party. They make Birchers seem coherent!
Unprecedented activities or things that have occurred under the Republican Party:
Stealing a supreme court seat from President Obama.
Blocking the Florida vote count for president via Supreme Court edict due to concerns about violence after a staged riot by Republican political operatives.
A record number of federal indictments among White House administration
The bill size for presidential and family protection
The amount of vacation time by a sitting (on a golf cart) president.
The price of Insulin and many other essential lifesaving drugs.
The low level of tax on existing wealth.
The penetration of both foreign agents and funding into a party apparatus.
Attempting to blackmail a country into influencing an American election.
That's just off the top of my head but I am sure there are probably hundreds more.
This is just more of the usual demands by Republicans, their media allies and useful idiots that the Democratic party play by the rules against an opponent that doesn't recognize rules, the point of the United States of America or even the existence of reality.
posted by srboisvert at 3:02 PM on August 10, 2022 [28 favorites]
They don't want new things happening. They want nothing new to ever happen again. They want old things to come back. Kings are an old thing and they want one.
They are no longer conservatives (if they ever were). This is now an openly extremely radical right-wing party. They make Birchers seem coherent!
Unprecedented activities or things that have occurred under the Republican Party:
Stealing a supreme court seat from President Obama.
Blocking the Florida vote count for president via Supreme Court edict due to concerns about violence after a staged riot by Republican political operatives.
A record number of federal indictments among White House administration
The bill size for presidential and family protection
The amount of vacation time by a sitting (on a golf cart) president.
The price of Insulin and many other essential lifesaving drugs.
The low level of tax on existing wealth.
The penetration of both foreign agents and funding into a party apparatus.
Attempting to blackmail a country into influencing an American election.
That's just off the top of my head but I am sure there are probably hundreds more.
This is just more of the usual demands by Republicans, their media allies and useful idiots that the Democratic party play by the rules against an opponent that doesn't recognize rules, the point of the United States of America or even the existence of reality.
posted by srboisvert at 3:02 PM on August 10, 2022 [28 favorites]
I understand the feeling of "wishing things would get worse out of despair over non-stop political stasis," but (a) it's wishful thinking that three more atrocities will magically fix that and (b) it feels a little gross to me to presume that [a ruling that affects every woman in America] "isn't major enough" and we ought to hope for something bigger to come along.
There isn't much bigger than Roe v. Wade. If that doesn't shock the political nervous system, I'm skeptical that some other court ruling will.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:03 PM on August 10, 2022 [18 favorites]
There isn't much bigger than Roe v. Wade. If that doesn't shock the political nervous system, I'm skeptical that some other court ruling will.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:03 PM on August 10, 2022 [18 favorites]
short-term jolt to civil rights
Always cracks me up (not actually) when an accelerationist talks about how pragmatic and realistic they are being, while *also* describing horrific human suffering in this way.
posted by Jarcat at 3:06 PM on August 10, 2022 [12 favorites]
Always cracks me up (not actually) when an accelerationist talks about how pragmatic and realistic they are being, while *also* describing horrific human suffering in this way.
posted by Jarcat at 3:06 PM on August 10, 2022 [12 favorites]
"How dare you ask to see my tax returns/stolen classified documents/search warrant!" cries Mr. Birthcertificate Russiaifyourelistening, projecting all the way to the back of the room.
posted by Lyme Drop at 3:11 PM on August 10, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Lyme Drop at 3:11 PM on August 10, 2022 [13 favorites]
Jane Q. Public is already in mortal danger. If John doesn’t care because it doesn’t affect his boner directly, his time is up.
posted by armeowda at 3:13 PM on August 10, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by armeowda at 3:13 PM on August 10, 2022 [28 favorites]
Relatedly, somebody asked the other day:
Why do they keep doubling down on this asshole no matter what he does?
And the answer is, the Republican Party is well past the point where they could capture the majority vote, and they're still dwindling. Trump is very literally what's keeping them afloat: he knows how to dominate media cycles, his fans are rabidly excited about him, and he's a unique combination of famous, wealthy*, and skilled at his own manner of rhetoric. He's similar to Alex Jones in that nobody else in his field comes close to capturing his particular flavor of magnetism.
Republicans don't exactly have a deep bench. Most of the "serious" ones, like Hawley and DeSantis, are profoundly uncharismatic, even compared to the lackluster Democrats. The ones who do get attention for being clowns in the same way as Trump—MTG, Boebert, previously Cawthorne—aren't just Trump's level of incompetent and dumb, they're full-blown unhinged.
Extremism excites their base, but rapidly diminishes it. The only reason they're still competitive is the anti-democratic nature of American democracy—and that's why, in both rhetoric and practice, they're seeking to push against democratic policy and the very idea that voting is sacrosanct. Trump was what triggered that movement, and may still remain the only gravitational force potent enough to keep that coming along. A cult of personality requires, well, a personality. And Trump's not only a personality, he's a highly idiosyncratic one who can't easily be replicated.
(It's not that he doesn't polarize people, mind you. It's just that he grabs attention, excites crowds, and effectively skewers his enemies enough that he squeaked into the presidency, and nearly did so twice. Beyond him, the only Republican remotely as good at drawing eyes to him in as vile a way is Ted Cruz, which... lol.)
Trump is a unique factor in American politics; without him, the political landscape and the Republican party itself looks quite a bit different. That includes its rabid push for extremism itself: any moderate Republican who stands against Trump earns his ire and gets relentlessly attacked, in a way that other politicians and even Fox News can't match. It's hard to tell whether the Republican party as a whole would push away towards extremism (and towards the anti-democratic measures that become necessary because of their extremism) without Trump in the room, because right now, he holds them all hostage. They can't turn against him without sacrificing their careers, and the ones who'd need to turn on him are where they are precisely because they're the most cravenly ambitious.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:21 PM on August 10, 2022 [42 favorites]
Why do they keep doubling down on this asshole no matter what he does?
And the answer is, the Republican Party is well past the point where they could capture the majority vote, and they're still dwindling. Trump is very literally what's keeping them afloat: he knows how to dominate media cycles, his fans are rabidly excited about him, and he's a unique combination of famous, wealthy*, and skilled at his own manner of rhetoric. He's similar to Alex Jones in that nobody else in his field comes close to capturing his particular flavor of magnetism.
Republicans don't exactly have a deep bench. Most of the "serious" ones, like Hawley and DeSantis, are profoundly uncharismatic, even compared to the lackluster Democrats. The ones who do get attention for being clowns in the same way as Trump—MTG, Boebert, previously Cawthorne—aren't just Trump's level of incompetent and dumb, they're full-blown unhinged.
Extremism excites their base, but rapidly diminishes it. The only reason they're still competitive is the anti-democratic nature of American democracy—and that's why, in both rhetoric and practice, they're seeking to push against democratic policy and the very idea that voting is sacrosanct. Trump was what triggered that movement, and may still remain the only gravitational force potent enough to keep that coming along. A cult of personality requires, well, a personality. And Trump's not only a personality, he's a highly idiosyncratic one who can't easily be replicated.
(It's not that he doesn't polarize people, mind you. It's just that he grabs attention, excites crowds, and effectively skewers his enemies enough that he squeaked into the presidency, and nearly did so twice. Beyond him, the only Republican remotely as good at drawing eyes to him in as vile a way is Ted Cruz, which... lol.)
Trump is a unique factor in American politics; without him, the political landscape and the Republican party itself looks quite a bit different. That includes its rabid push for extremism itself: any moderate Republican who stands against Trump earns his ire and gets relentlessly attacked, in a way that other politicians and even Fox News can't match. It's hard to tell whether the Republican party as a whole would push away towards extremism (and towards the anti-democratic measures that become necessary because of their extremism) without Trump in the room, because right now, he holds them all hostage. They can't turn against him without sacrificing their careers, and the ones who'd need to turn on him are where they are precisely because they're the most cravenly ambitious.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:21 PM on August 10, 2022 [42 favorites]
That’s literally the “according to Webster’s dictionary” definition of accelerationism, though?
Nope. Describing the thing that is happening right now is not accelerationism. You have fewer rights than you had last year, and they're not done. It's happening, it's not because I wished it so, and I resent the implication.
posted by adept256 at 3:23 PM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Nope. Describing the thing that is happening right now is not accelerationism. You have fewer rights than you had last year, and they're not done. It's happening, it's not because I wished it so, and I resent the implication.
posted by adept256 at 3:23 PM on August 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Oh, that whole thing about John Q Public’s condoms is literally a thing that’s happening to your buddy Mr Public right now, and not a hypothetical about how things might need to get shittier to get better? Sorry, my bad.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 3:32 PM on August 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 3:32 PM on August 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
John Q Public walks into the pharmacy and there are no condoms on the shelf.
And he blames the Democrats because that's what Alex Jones 2.0 said on YouTube.
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:20 PM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
And he blames the Democrats because that's what Alex Jones 2.0 said on YouTube.
posted by Faint of Butt at 4:20 PM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
I was imagining like a confidential dog source or like a room full of bees or something
Ha! How ‘bout a nice parrot who memorized some key monologues?
Trump’s former house parrot “Pebbles” — under FBI questioning — repeats his owner’s opinions about the FBI’s surprise raid and cage break-in (YT video with CC and very NSFW language).
posted by cenoxo at 5:09 PM on August 10, 2022
Ha! How ‘bout a nice parrot who memorized some key monologues?
Trump’s former house parrot “Pebbles” — under FBI questioning — repeats his owner’s opinions about the FBI’s surprise raid and cage break-in (YT video with CC and very NSFW language).
posted by cenoxo at 5:09 PM on August 10, 2022
A record number of federal indictments among White House administration
Which Republican administration?
The bill size for presidential and family protection
Does that include taxpayers paying $100,000/day for Secret Service protection and other expenses while Melania Trump lived in New York during the first five months of the Trump administration?
The amount of vacation time by a sitting (on a golf cart) president.
Again, which Republican president?
posted by kirkaracha at 5:17 PM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Which Republican administration?
The bill size for presidential and family protection
Does that include taxpayers paying $100,000/day for Secret Service protection and other expenses while Melania Trump lived in New York during the first five months of the Trump administration?
The amount of vacation time by a sitting (on a golf cart) president.
Again, which Republican president?
posted by kirkaracha at 5:17 PM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
FBI delivers subpoenas to several Pa. Republican lawmakers: sources say (PennLive)
posted by Lyme Drop at 5:38 PM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Lyme Drop at 5:38 PM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
The Lincoln Project just loves creating videos with a target audience of one.
posted by orange swan at 5:59 PM on August 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 5:59 PM on August 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
I'm always a bit confused by the comments from people, not here but in the official media, wringing their hands and expressing deep concern that when action is taken against Republicans it will enrage their voters, turn X Republican into a martyr, make FOX say mean things, cause Republicans to take out attack ads, make Republicans say that Democrats are evil, or whatever.
They do that all the time.
That's their entire shtick.
Its pretty much all they do.
They martyr themselves, they get outraged, they say Democrats are trying to destroy America. That's not the most important moment in anyone's life, it's Tuesday.
The only real concern is the stochastic terrorism the Republicans stir up. The political side, the part where they wind up the outrage machine and go into a performative hissy fit? They do that all the time.
it's part of what frustrates leftists with Democrats who say they can't do X thing because it would make the Republicans say the Democrats are socialists. They say that anyway.
We are talking about a political movement that genuinely, honestly, no shit, had a multi day end of the world level tantrum about President Obama wearing a tan suit. And then again about President Obama wanting mustard on his burger.
Why is the WaPo and NPR and NYT and all the others concerned that investigating real crimes will somehow make things worse? It's stuff like that which makes people like me wonder if maybe, just maybe, the official media might not actually be so liberal after all....
posted by sotonohito at 6:12 PM on August 10, 2022 [53 favorites]
They do that all the time.
That's their entire shtick.
Its pretty much all they do.
They martyr themselves, they get outraged, they say Democrats are trying to destroy America. That's not the most important moment in anyone's life, it's Tuesday.
The only real concern is the stochastic terrorism the Republicans stir up. The political side, the part where they wind up the outrage machine and go into a performative hissy fit? They do that all the time.
it's part of what frustrates leftists with Democrats who say they can't do X thing because it would make the Republicans say the Democrats are socialists. They say that anyway.
We are talking about a political movement that genuinely, honestly, no shit, had a multi day end of the world level tantrum about President Obama wearing a tan suit. And then again about President Obama wanting mustard on his burger.
Why is the WaPo and NPR and NYT and all the others concerned that investigating real crimes will somehow make things worse? It's stuff like that which makes people like me wonder if maybe, just maybe, the official media might not actually be so liberal after all....
posted by sotonohito at 6:12 PM on August 10, 2022 [53 favorites]
FBI delivers subpoenas to several Pa. Republican lawmakers: sources say (PennLive)
What an astonishing article. I am guessing that PennLive don't like Scott Perry.
posted by Literaryhero at 6:13 PM on August 10, 2022
What an astonishing article. I am guessing that PennLive don't like Scott Perry.
posted by Literaryhero at 6:13 PM on August 10, 2022
Interestingly and in the same vein, Sen. Lindsey Graham a no-show at scheduled Fulton County court appearance (via the wonderful Sherrilyn Ifill on Twitter.)
posted by Shunra at 6:32 PM on August 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Shunra at 6:32 PM on August 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
Lock him up?
posted by Windopaene at 6:49 PM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 6:49 PM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
Trump threw a twitter tantrum during the renewal of the act under which he could be charged and as a result the penalties went from a misdemeanor to a full blown felony with up to 5 years in prison. The FBI took away 10 boxes of documents. My understanding from the bird lawyers of twitter is that theory they could charge him separately for each and every document. I am skeptical but it makes me laugh thinking it might be true.
posted by interogative mood at 8:22 PM on August 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 8:22 PM on August 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
If John doesn’t care because it doesn’t affect his boner directly, his time is up.
Women may need to have a whole lot less more penis-in-vagina sex with men in the future, especially in a lot of states. If they have the option to, anyway.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:28 PM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Women may need to have a whole lot less more penis-in-vagina sex with men in the future, especially in a lot of states. If they have the option to, anyway.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:28 PM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Women may need to have a whole lot less more penis-in-vagina sex
Definitely.
…also, if the entirety of human history is any guide, they will absolutely NOT be having less sex regardless of what the penalties may be.
I mean, I would be super happy to be proven wrong, but I’ve got a couple thousand years of history on my side.
posted by aramaic at 8:41 PM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Definitely.
…also, if the entirety of human history is any guide, they will absolutely NOT be having less sex regardless of what the penalties may be.
I mean, I would be super happy to be proven wrong, but I’ve got a couple thousand years of history on my side.
posted by aramaic at 8:41 PM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Well, there is the tale told in Lysistrata... Could get some hold if it could be promoted as a social movement maybe. Target the right women connected to the right men....
posted by hippybear at 8:48 PM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 8:48 PM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
hippybear: if we could get Lin-Manuel Miranda to give Lysistrata his treatment, it might actually work!
posted by drfu at 9:39 PM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by drfu at 9:39 PM on August 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
A Lysistrata gambit counts on two things:
In the second instance, I think about the mythical John Q. Public upthread, who finds himself unable to procure condoms and suddenly CARES because the consequences of fascism are finally affecting him. I don’t trust that guy to care about my bodily autonomy. Do you?
We oviparous types have already tried the solution where we fix society’s ills by keeping our knees together. If it worked that reliably, one of us would have been POTUS by now.
posted by armeowda at 10:14 PM on August 10, 2022 [22 favorites]
- Gender identity and sexual orientation being something people (if only cis-het women) can cheerfully opt out of
- Cis-het men uniformly taking “no” for an answer
In the second instance, I think about the mythical John Q. Public upthread, who finds himself unable to procure condoms and suddenly CARES because the consequences of fascism are finally affecting him. I don’t trust that guy to care about my bodily autonomy. Do you?
We oviparous types have already tried the solution where we fix society’s ills by keeping our knees together. If it worked that reliably, one of us would have been POTUS by now.
posted by armeowda at 10:14 PM on August 10, 2022 [22 favorites]
The degree to which all the white-wing chattering class is now suggesting the FBI planted evidence is sure a compelling indication to me that they found something very bad for Trump.
Of course, it also shows they intend to run with The Big Lie II: Defund the FBI as the primary response.
I've just going to backspace everything else to avoid doomsaying.
posted by bcd at 11:02 PM on August 10, 2022 [8 favorites]
Of course, it also shows they intend to run with The Big Lie II: Defund the FBI as the primary response.
I've just going to backspace everything else to avoid doomsaying.
posted by bcd at 11:02 PM on August 10, 2022 [8 favorites]
armeowda Agree.
I think something more like the 1975 Icelandic women's strike would be a more effective thing to discuss. Though I sadly doubt we could get 90% of American women to go on strike for a day to demand a return to Roe.
posted by sotonohito at 4:30 AM on August 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
I think something more like the 1975 Icelandic women's strike would be a more effective thing to discuss. Though I sadly doubt we could get 90% of American women to go on strike for a day to demand a return to Roe.
posted by sotonohito at 4:30 AM on August 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
The United States as a whole is too large and too poor to get that kind of buy in. Among other reasons.
Meanwhile, "Georgia State University legal scholar Clark D. Cunningham, an expert on search warrants and the criminal investigations of interference in the 2020 election, explains what could have led to the raid and what the raid tells us about the state of the federal investigation into Trump’s activities" in The Conversation.
...the Department of Justice on July 12, 2022, obtained a warrant to search the cellphone of John Eastman, Trump’s former lawyer. As hearings by the Jan. 6 House committee have revealed, Eastman was a primary architect of the plan to block Congress from certifying Biden’s victory.
There seems little doubt that the Justice Department had compelling, perhaps overwhelming, legal justifications for conducting this unprecedented search of a former president’s home. However, the secrecy required for Justice Department investigations and grand jury proceedings means that the country will have to be patient – the justifications for the search may become public only if and when criminal charges are filed.
posted by Bella Donna at 4:56 AM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile, "Georgia State University legal scholar Clark D. Cunningham, an expert on search warrants and the criminal investigations of interference in the 2020 election, explains what could have led to the raid and what the raid tells us about the state of the federal investigation into Trump’s activities" in The Conversation.
...the Department of Justice on July 12, 2022, obtained a warrant to search the cellphone of John Eastman, Trump’s former lawyer. As hearings by the Jan. 6 House committee have revealed, Eastman was a primary architect of the plan to block Congress from certifying Biden’s victory.
There seems little doubt that the Justice Department had compelling, perhaps overwhelming, legal justifications for conducting this unprecedented search of a former president’s home. However, the secrecy required for Justice Department investigations and grand jury proceedings means that the country will have to be patient – the justifications for the search may become public only if and when criminal charges are filed.
posted by Bella Donna at 4:56 AM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
That's their entire shtick.
Its pretty much all they do.
They martyr themselves, they get outraged, they say Democrats are trying to destroy America.
And no one ever, ever says that this rhetoric will outrage the Democrats, drive their turnout up, or have any consequence at all. No one even suggests that Democrats should be outraged over the incessant Republican lies about them. It's regarded as just a fact of life, like a rainy day, when it's a Republican choice.
But the so-called "liberal media" is so used to bad behavior by Republicans that they only treat Democrats as having any agency.
posted by Gelatin at 6:22 AM on August 11, 2022 [31 favorites]
Its pretty much all they do.
They martyr themselves, they get outraged, they say Democrats are trying to destroy America.
And no one ever, ever says that this rhetoric will outrage the Democrats, drive their turnout up, or have any consequence at all. No one even suggests that Democrats should be outraged over the incessant Republican lies about them. It's regarded as just a fact of life, like a rainy day, when it's a Republican choice.
But the so-called "liberal media" is so used to bad behavior by Republicans that they only treat Democrats as having any agency.
posted by Gelatin at 6:22 AM on August 11, 2022 [31 favorites]
Plane flies over Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate with 'ha ha ha ha ha' banner (fox13news.com)
posted by bluesky43 at 6:35 AM on August 11, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 6:35 AM on August 11, 2022 [25 favorites]
The Mueller Report cited 10 times Trump potentially committed obstruction of justice.
Mueller said he couldn’t indict Trump when Trump was in office because of the bullshit DOJ memo.
So...can't Trump be indicted now? Obstruction of justice is still a crime, and he's not president any more. The statute of limitations hasn't expired for several instances. What's DOJ doing?
posted by kirkaracha at 8:43 AM on August 11, 2022 [10 favorites]
Mueller said he couldn’t indict Trump when Trump was in office because of the bullshit DOJ memo.
So...can't Trump be indicted now? Obstruction of justice is still a crime, and he's not president any more. The statute of limitations hasn't expired for several instances. What's DOJ doing?
posted by kirkaracha at 8:43 AM on August 11, 2022 [10 favorites]
What's DOJ doing?
Holding grand juries over January 6 and Trump's mishandling of classified material, to mention two.
posted by Gelatin at 8:51 AM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
Holding grand juries over January 6 and Trump's mishandling of classified material, to mention two.
posted by Gelatin at 8:51 AM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
i don't know, ignoring someone's crimes because they keep doing new crimes seems like a bad idea!
posted by logicpunk at 9:27 AM on August 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by logicpunk at 9:27 AM on August 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
Up until this week, it may have seemed that the FBI was "ignoring" the fact that Trump improperly took classified documents from the White House to Mar-A-Lago, too, but here we are.
One of the few things we know for sure about this warrant is that it didn't leak. We don't know what the Justice Department is up to -- and neither do the Republicans. They are hoping to capitalize on this information vacuum with bad-faith calls for the FBI release the warrant, when Trump could any time he wants to and the fact that he hasn't suggests that it doesn't help his case at all.
We don't know what the Justice Department is up to. Maybe they have decided that they aren't likely to succeed in prosecuting Trump over obstruction of justice in investigating his Ukrainian extortion attempt or his 2016 campaign's ties to Russia -- but that isn't the same as "ignoring" it.
Then again, maybe they aren't ignoring Trump after all. Who seem more scared in the aftermath of this warrant, the Republicans or the DoJ?
posted by Gelatin at 10:05 AM on August 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
One of the few things we know for sure about this warrant is that it didn't leak. We don't know what the Justice Department is up to -- and neither do the Republicans. They are hoping to capitalize on this information vacuum with bad-faith calls for the FBI release the warrant, when Trump could any time he wants to and the fact that he hasn't suggests that it doesn't help his case at all.
We don't know what the Justice Department is up to. Maybe they have decided that they aren't likely to succeed in prosecuting Trump over obstruction of justice in investigating his Ukrainian extortion attempt or his 2016 campaign's ties to Russia -- but that isn't the same as "ignoring" it.
Then again, maybe they aren't ignoring Trump after all. Who seem more scared in the aftermath of this warrant, the Republicans or the DoJ?
posted by Gelatin at 10:05 AM on August 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
Subpoena Preceded Search Warrant in Push to Retrieve Material From Trump NYTimes
A long quote, because the article is probably paywalled:
A long quote, because the article is probably paywalled:
After hours of searching, they left with several boxes, although they were not filled to the brim and in at least some cases simply contained sealed envelopes of material that the agents took and were otherwise empty, one person familiar with the search said.posted by mumimor at 10:22 AM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
The person said that the F.B.I. left behind a manifest of what was taken, which was two pages long.
Mr. Trump’s team has declined to disclose the contents of the search warrant. A number of organizations, including The New York Times, are seeking in federal court to have it unsealed.
Some senior Republicans have been warned by allies of Mr. Trump not to continue to be aggressive in criticizing the Justice Department and the F.B.I. over the matter because it is possible that more damaging information about Mr. Trump related to the search will eventually become public.
When Mr. Trump left the White House after refusing to concede that he had lost the 2020 election and seeking frantically to stay in power, a number of boxes of material made their way from the West Wing to Florida.
In the boxes was a mash of papers, along with items like a raincoat and golf balls, according to people briefed on the contents. The National Archives tried for months after Mr. Trump left office to retrieve the material, engaging in lengthy discussions with representatives for the former president to acquire material that should have been properly stored by the archives under the Presidential Records Act.
When archivists recovered 15 boxes of material this year, they discovered several pages of classified material and referred the matter to the Justice Department. But officials later came to believe that additional classified material remained at Mar-a-Lago.
Some of Mr. Trump’s advisers have maintained that they were trying all along to cooperate with federal officials and had kept an open line of communication.
But others familiar with federal officials’ efforts to recover the documents have painted a very different picture. They have said that Mr. Trump resisted returning property that belonged to the government, despite being told that he needed to.
Some of Mr. Trump’s informal advisers outside his direct employee have insisted to him that he can claim the documents are personal items and keep them there.
It's telling that the current Republican talking point seems to be that the FBI didn't leave a copy of the warrant with Trump's people at all.
While doubtless a lie, this claim simultaneously implies improper behavior on the FBI's part and excuses Trump for not producing the (no doubt incriminating) warrant himself.
posted by Gelatin at 11:05 AM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
While doubtless a lie, this claim simultaneously implies improper behavior on the FBI's part and excuses Trump for not producing the (no doubt incriminating) warrant himself.
posted by Gelatin at 11:05 AM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Livestream of AG Garland's imminent statement. CNN just confirmed that it will be about the Mar-a-Lago search.
posted by Rhaomi at 11:38 AM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 11:38 AM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
There was a standoff with an armed man at the FBI office in Cincinnati today.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 11:45 AM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 11:45 AM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
While doubtless a lie
It's a lie.
Here's Trump lawyer Christina Bobb, on video, saying the search warrant and attachments were handed to her at Mar-a-Lago at the end of the search.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:59 AM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's a lie.
Here's Trump lawyer Christina Bobb, on video, saying the search warrant and attachments were handed to her at Mar-a-Lago at the end of the search.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:59 AM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Garland's press conference is all about smacking down fascist nonsense; "motion filed to unseal search warrant", so we should see what they were after, soon.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:08 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:08 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
United States' Motion to Unseal Limited Warrant Materials
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 12:10 PM on August 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 12:10 PM on August 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Would have been nice if he had also said "anyone that goes after the judges and magistrates involved will get our full attention".
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:11 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:11 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well, Scott Adams won’t be satisfied with this.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:13 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 12:13 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
I assume the talking point will now be "HOW VERY DARE GARLAND COMMENT ON AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION"
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:17 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:17 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
The DoJ has to know the information in the warrant isn't favorable to Trump. (Trump sure does, or he would have released it.) So now the DoJ is complying with the demands of Republicans by releasing incriminating information. I love it.
posted by Gelatin at 12:19 PM on August 11, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 12:19 PM on August 11, 2022 [20 favorites]
Marcy Wheeler and several others are phrasing it as Garland calling Trump's bluff.
The DoJ moved to unseal only the documents they left with Trump's lawyer anyway, and Trump could have released at any time. They also invited him to object -- and in doing so, admit that their release would be damaging to him.
posted by Gelatin at 12:35 PM on August 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
The DoJ moved to unseal only the documents they left with Trump's lawyer anyway, and Trump could have released at any time. They also invited him to object -- and in doing so, admit that their release would be damaging to him.
posted by Gelatin at 12:35 PM on August 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
@maggieNYT: "Some senior GOPers have been warned by allies of Mr. Trump not to continue to be aggressive in criticizing the DOJ and F.B.I. over the matter because it is possible that more damaging information about Mr. Trump related to the search will become public. "
posted by gwint at 12:39 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by gwint at 12:39 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Maggie Haberman is a Trump propagandist and does nothing but carry water for him. I wouldn't trust a word she says.
posted by valkane at 12:42 PM on August 11, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by valkane at 12:42 PM on August 11, 2022 [23 favorites]
I just can’t eat all this popcorn…
posted by Windopaene at 12:42 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 12:42 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Garland calling Trump's bluff.
Indeed. From the motion:
posted by martin q blank at 12:43 PM on August 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
Indeed. From the motion:
"The public’s clear and powerful interest in understanding what occurred under these circumstances weighs heavily in favor of unsealing. That said, the former President should have an opportunity to respond to this Motion and lodge objections, including with regards to any “legitimate privacy interests” or the potential for other “injury” if these materials are made public."iow: Checkmate, you mf'er.
posted by martin q blank at 12:43 PM on August 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
I’m 98.3% sure Trump’s team will object to having the documents unsealed. He’ll just lie about it 15 seconds later and blame the DoJ or big foot or something.
I have no idea about this process but it’ll be interesting to se how high up the court chain it goes.
I hope they get released if only to watch the right wingers make up excuses to defend Dear Leader.
posted by Farce_First at 12:53 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have no idea about this process but it’ll be interesting to se how high up the court chain it goes.
I hope they get released if only to watch the right wingers make up excuses to defend Dear Leader.
posted by Farce_First at 12:53 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
"Some senior GOPers have been warned by allies of Mr. Trump not to continue to be aggressive in criticizing the DOJ and F.B.I. over the matter because it is possible that more damaging information about Mr. Trump related to the search will become public. "
...
Maggie Haberman is a Trump propagandist and does nothing but carry water for him. I wouldn't trust a word she says.
There may well be some people whom anyone would describe as within Trump's inner circle who are saying this, but for reasons of their own rather than to protect him or to express his will.
posted by Etrigan at 12:55 PM on August 11, 2022
...
Maggie Haberman is a Trump propagandist and does nothing but carry water for him. I wouldn't trust a word she says.
There may well be some people whom anyone would describe as within Trump's inner circle who are saying this, but for reasons of their own rather than to protect him or to express his will.
posted by Etrigan at 12:55 PM on August 11, 2022
Wow, the motion quoted Bobb directly from that video. Nice move.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:55 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:55 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Again, who cares what Trump says? Yes, some of the media will swallow it, and his true believers definitely will, but Trump's supporters are a minority, if a bigoted, violent, angry, and dangerous one.
No one is going to convince Trump's cult, but objecting to the motion will make it crystal clear that the past week of bluster has indeed been a bluff and that it's Trump who doesn't want the warrant unsealed.
It also shows again that the DoJ has more control of this process than the Republicans -- as pointed out above, many are scared of what may come out next.
posted by Gelatin at 12:59 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
No one is going to convince Trump's cult, but objecting to the motion will make it crystal clear that the past week of bluster has indeed been a bluff and that it's Trump who doesn't want the warrant unsealed.
It also shows again that the DoJ has more control of this process than the Republicans -- as pointed out above, many are scared of what may come out next.
posted by Gelatin at 12:59 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
IMPOTUSx2's response to Garland is the same kind of calm, measured statement we're grown accustomed to:
posted by kirkaracha at 12:59 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I continue to ask, what happened to the 33 Million pages of documents taken to Chicago by President Obama? The Fake News Media refuses to talk about that. They want it CANCELED!Link to Political Wire, which links to Truth Social.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:59 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Shorter Trump: I got nothin'. Look over there!
posted by Gelatin at 1:02 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Gelatin at 1:02 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wow, Trump must REALLY be scared if he's skipped straight past the usual Hilary-bashing and is jumping straight to Obama.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:07 PM on August 11, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:07 PM on August 11, 2022 [15 favorites]
"If the evidence is against you, talk about the law, and, since you ask me, if the law and the evidence are both against you, then pound on the table and yell like hell." — Anonymous
posted by kirkaracha at 1:12 PM on August 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 1:12 PM on August 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Trump’s legal response required tomorrow as to whether he will fight to unseal the warrant or not
posted by glaucon at 1:14 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by glaucon at 1:14 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
re: what happened to the 33 Million pages of documents taken to Chicago by President Obama? The Fake News Media refuses to talk about that. They want it CANCELED!
Apparently he's talking about the Obama Presidential Library.
oof
posted by mazola at 1:26 PM on August 11, 2022 [16 favorites]
Apparently he's talking about the Obama Presidential Library.
oof
posted by mazola at 1:26 PM on August 11, 2022 [16 favorites]
I continue to ask
You continue to ask yourself, as you and your administration had four years to do something if there were anything there. STFU!
posted by riverlife at 1:26 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
You continue to ask yourself, as you and your administration had four years to do something if there were anything there. STFU!
posted by riverlife at 1:26 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
You’re gonna need a bigger thread.
posted by swift at 1:29 PM on August 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by swift at 1:29 PM on August 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
I continue to ask
You continue to ask yourself,
I still can't believe I lost the bet that at some point during his term, Trump would tweet "Why doesn't the President DO SOMETHING about this???!??"
posted by Etrigan at 1:42 PM on August 11, 2022 [17 favorites]
You continue to ask yourself,
I still can't believe I lost the bet that at some point during his term, Trump would tweet "Why doesn't the President DO SOMETHING about this???!??"
posted by Etrigan at 1:42 PM on August 11, 2022 [17 favorites]
It would be a fitting ending to (one chapter of) this stupid, stupid era if, after all the other crimes and obvious villainy, Trump gets done for doing essentially the thing that he accused Clinton of doing and that was made into a felony during his term. Not the best ending, but maybe the most perfect.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:08 PM on August 11, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 2:08 PM on August 11, 2022 [22 favorites]
Brave of AG Merrick Garland to both literally and figuratively stick his neck out on this, given the threats of violence that Republicans have made against officials like Garland and others.
I'll believe this is all real when Trump and his crime family are rotting in a supermax facility, but today finally feels like a step in the right direction from this administration.
Democracy isn't dead, yet.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:28 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'll believe this is all real when Trump and his crime family are rotting in a supermax facility, but today finally feels like a step in the right direction from this administration.
Democracy isn't dead, yet.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:28 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
People are also discussing the irony of this being orchestrated by the man Mitch kept off the Supreme Court.
posted by girlmightlive at 2:30 PM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by girlmightlive at 2:30 PM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
There are any number of AG candidates who would have been far more assertive than Garland has been so far on this, in terms of going after the wide panoply of blatant criminality that Trump and his Cabinet engaged in (remember the Cabinet? So much malfeasance! So little accountability), including those obstruction of justice charges that Mueller left on the table.
I was hoping for Sherrilyn Ifill, myself. She would have been astonishingly good. Garland is approaching the bare minimum of what's needed in this moment.
posted by Gadarene at 2:36 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
I was hoping for Sherrilyn Ifill, myself. She would have been astonishingly good. Garland is approaching the bare minimum of what's needed in this moment.
posted by Gadarene at 2:36 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
I was hoping for Sherrilyn Ifill, myself. She would have been astonishingly good. Garland is approaching the bare minimum of what's needed in this moment.
At least as I recall it, the tenor of the media I was consuming at the time of Garland’s nom was very “Ha ha! Merrick Garland! He’s going to do something about all the crimes!” And then… nothin’, and lots of people being angry about it. I myself am peeved, but the lesson to me personally as a non-lawyer is that I know dang all about what (or why) any AG will decide to do contra what it seems like they could be doing.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:05 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
At least as I recall it, the tenor of the media I was consuming at the time of Garland’s nom was very “Ha ha! Merrick Garland! He’s going to do something about all the crimes!” And then… nothin’, and lots of people being angry about it. I myself am peeved, but the lesson to me personally as a non-lawyer is that I know dang all about what (or why) any AG will decide to do contra what it seems like they could be doing.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:05 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
...but the lesson to me personally as a non-lawyer is that I know dang all about what (or why) any AG will decide to do contra what it seems like they could be doing.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:05 PM
THIS. And as Garland pointed out today in his statement, the Justice Department necessarily does not comment on the work they are doing or the work they are intending to do. Justice goes slow, and I'm waiting to see what the hell was at Mar-a-Lago that required this move (which strikes me as quite extraordinary). And the Justice Department requesting to have the legal stuff unsealed is brilliant after all the shit slinging by the MAGA surrogates the past two days.
posted by bluesky43 at 4:21 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 3:05 PM
THIS. And as Garland pointed out today in his statement, the Justice Department necessarily does not comment on the work they are doing or the work they are intending to do. Justice goes slow, and I'm waiting to see what the hell was at Mar-a-Lago that required this move (which strikes me as quite extraordinary). And the Justice Department requesting to have the legal stuff unsealed is brilliant after all the shit slinging by the MAGA surrogates the past two days.
posted by bluesky43 at 4:21 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
I have wondered lately whether the recent string of disclosures and action has been timed to build to a crescendo in November. Probably not, but that would be interesting.
posted by adamrice at 4:30 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by adamrice at 4:30 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
The phrase “I love it! Especially late in the summer,” springs to mind…
posted by wabbittwax at 5:09 PM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 5:09 PM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
Lol, WaPo now reporting that the search was for classified nuclear documents. This is going to be great.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:10 PM on August 11, 2022 [39 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:10 PM on August 11, 2022 [39 favorites]
David Brooks with the weakest sauce imaginable:
“In theory, justice is blind, and obviously no person can be above the law. But as Damon Linker wrote in a Substack post, “This is a polity, not a graduate seminar in Kantian ethics.” We live in a specific real-world situation, and we all have to take responsibility for the real-world effects of our actions.”
posted by swift at 5:13 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
“In theory, justice is blind, and obviously no person can be above the law. But as Damon Linker wrote in a Substack post, “This is a polity, not a graduate seminar in Kantian ethics.” We live in a specific real-world situation, and we all have to take responsibility for the real-world effects of our actions.”
posted by swift at 5:13 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
That is... much worse than I had imagined. And yet, so obviously Trump that I can't believe we didn't assume it from the get-go.
It's literally, what is the most valuable thing I can smuggle with me on the way out the door that I can sell or barter to a hostile power.
Absolutely fucked.
posted by saturday_morning at 5:59 PM on August 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
It's literally, what is the most valuable thing I can smuggle with me on the way out the door that I can sell or barter to a hostile power.
Absolutely fucked.
posted by saturday_morning at 5:59 PM on August 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
I hope it's not WaPo getting out in front of themselves. That's a pretty big deal.
posted by hippybear at 5:59 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 5:59 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
An expression you hear a lot in law school is fiat justitia ruat caelum.
This is exactly and entirely the sort of thing people would flippantly predict a President Trump would do with nuclear secrets in, say, 2015. Everything was so, so preventable.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:02 PM on August 11, 2022 [20 favorites]
This is exactly and entirely the sort of thing people would flippantly predict a President Trump would do with nuclear secrets in, say, 2015. Everything was so, so preventable.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:02 PM on August 11, 2022 [20 favorites]
Trump will emerge on Monday declaring that of course he had nuclear weapon plans, because the only moral thing to do was to sell those to Israel so that they'll have terrestrial deterrents to go with their space lasers.
And Israel's officials will all look at each other and wonder, "Who's going to be the one to tell him?"
(Slightly more seriously, if Trump did intend on selling nuclear documents, the Saudis are almost assuredly the other side of said deal. Not only have they been pouring money onto Kushner, but they have a notable history regarding America's nuclear tech.) (Judd Legum, Twitter)
posted by delfin at 6:05 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
And Israel's officials will all look at each other and wonder, "Who's going to be the one to tell him?"
(Slightly more seriously, if Trump did intend on selling nuclear documents, the Saudis are almost assuredly the other side of said deal. Not only have they been pouring money onto Kushner, but they have a notable history regarding America's nuclear tech.) (Judd Legum, Twitter)
posted by delfin at 6:05 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Weren't Trump and Kushner trying to sell Saudi Arabia nuclear technology, at one point? Interesting temporal overlap of the evidence search with Saudi golfing going on in the vicinity of the materials in question.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:05 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:05 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Jinx!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:06 PM on August 11, 2022
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:06 PM on August 11, 2022
I honestly thought that motherfucker couldn't surprise me anymore.
posted by gwint at 6:07 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by gwint at 6:07 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
TFG: "My attorneys and representatives were cooperating fully, and very good relationships had been established. The government could have had whatever they wanted, if we had it."
Uh, not that we had anything they would want, of course. Same answer! Same answer!
posted by swift at 6:07 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Uh, not that we had anything they would want, of course. Same answer! Same answer!
posted by swift at 6:07 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
I was legitimately concerned that he'd do something bad with nukes during his term, like I dunno, nuke Sacramento for being too liberal or god knows what.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:14 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:14 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
I kinda wish we’d gotten a chance to see him nuke a hurricane.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:17 PM on August 11, 2022
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:17 PM on August 11, 2022
That is more of an amusing movie plot than something we really want. We want zero nuclear bombs going off on the planet at all. Preferably all of them disassembled and the plans for them buried in nuclear waste.
posted by hippybear at 6:19 PM on August 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:19 PM on August 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
So that’s what they call the nuclear option?
Seriously WTF!!! Surely this! But her emails!
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:22 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Seriously WTF!!! Surely this! But her emails!
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:22 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Buttery Males?
posted by hippybear at 6:25 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:25 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
I wonder if it was maybe the famed nuclear football. “Just a souvenir! They change those codes all the time anyway.”
posted by bigbigdog at 6:26 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bigbigdog at 6:26 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Didn't they execute the Rosenbergs?
posted by nickmark at 6:26 PM on August 11, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by nickmark at 6:26 PM on August 11, 2022 [28 favorites]
I noticed that those mystery gift boxes from Mar-a-Lago have disappeared from E-bay. (not real)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:31 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:31 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wonder if this is the sort of post-presidential life DJT imagined for himself when he descended that golden escalator and called Mexicans rapists.
posted by hippybear at 6:32 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:32 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Internet rumor / pundits suggest that it is not related to the US nuclear program but instead involves some specific details of what we know and how we know certain things about a certain country's nuclear weapons programs likely Israel or North Korea.
posted by interogative mood at 6:33 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 6:33 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
I do look forward to the actual list of documents being released tomorrow. Unless Trump blocks it. Because the optics of that will be great for him.
posted by hippybear at 6:34 PM on August 11, 2022
posted by hippybear at 6:34 PM on August 11, 2022
He'll block it. He has no choice now. He can only work in the lies and the shadows. The question is what the GOP will do with this nuclear leak (HA!).
posted by valkane at 6:38 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by valkane at 6:38 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't think it would be the nuclear football itself, bigbigdog, because I didn't relax on the day he left the White House until the news media announced he had turned it over.
posted by Soliloquy at 6:40 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Soliloquy at 6:40 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
"Trump tried to sell what we know of Israel's nuclear secrets to Saudi Arabia" rings just insane enough to be potentially true.
And startlingly funny in a highly inappropriate way.
posted by delfin at 6:44 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
And startlingly funny in a highly inappropriate way.
posted by delfin at 6:44 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
We probably won't get details like a document title. At most it will be something along the lines of a generic document id or a vague description like "Box Containing Minutes of National Security Council Meetings"
posted by interogative mood at 6:46 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 6:46 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm sure his story will be that he was valiantly protecting the US by preventing valuable information from being misused by Biden in all of his senility, as the dems have no idea what they are doing. And I'm sure he'll also categorically deny that mar-a-lago staff were using those particular boxes to hold up the chafing dishes at the waffle bar.
posted by mochapickle at 6:47 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 6:47 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was legitimately concerned that he'd do something bad with nukes during his term, like I dunno, nuke Sacramento for being too liberal or god knows what.
There wasn't a single day he was in office that I would've been shocked, or even surprised, to find that we'd nuked some random place by Mr. Tried to Buy Greenland.
I kinda wish we’d gotten a chance to see him nuke a hurricane.
The answer may not surprise you. tl;dr: Mother Nature laughs
posted by kirkaracha at 6:48 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
There wasn't a single day he was in office that I would've been shocked, or even surprised, to find that we'd nuked some random place by Mr. Tried to Buy Greenland.
I kinda wish we’d gotten a chance to see him nuke a hurricane.
The answer may not surprise you. tl;dr: Mother Nature laughs
posted by kirkaracha at 6:48 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Lol, WaPo now reporting that the search was for classified nuclear documents. This is going to be great.
If only someone had warned us!
posted by kirkaracha at 6:51 PM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
If only someone had warned us!
posted by kirkaracha at 6:51 PM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
Well, I figured there’d be more than one actual football. But pretty pictures of someone else’s nuclear program, achieved through previously undisclosed but now obvious technology, is also his style.
posted by bigbigdog at 6:52 PM on August 11, 2022
posted by bigbigdog at 6:52 PM on August 11, 2022
My Twitter feed has a lot of people yukking it up, but it's otherwise very quiet for this time of day. Not sure if all the journalists and journalism-adjacent people are digesting the news or chasing down confirmation or what.
posted by Tuba Toothpaste at 6:53 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Tuba Toothpaste at 6:53 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Internet rumor / pundits suggest that it is not related to the US nuclear program but instead involves some specific details of what we know and how we know certain things about a certain country's nuclear weapons programs likely Israel or North Korea.
Oh, OK, well, that's no so bad.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:54 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Oh, OK, well, that's no so bad.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:54 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Even if it's classified intelligence around the nuclear capabilities of other countries, that's...pretty fucking bad.
There's a spectrum of classified information that goes from "Wait what why is that classified even?" to "That information in the wrong hands might be cause for a global calamity." I'd put the nuclear secrets of other countries pretty far toward the global calamity side of the spectrum.
posted by Brak at 6:57 PM on August 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
There's a spectrum of classified information that goes from "Wait what why is that classified even?" to "That information in the wrong hands might be cause for a global calamity." I'd put the nuclear secrets of other countries pretty far toward the global calamity side of the spectrum.
posted by Brak at 6:57 PM on August 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
(I guess that too is a jinx of kirakacha's more entertainingly flippant and eminently succinct response.)
posted by Brak at 6:58 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Brak at 6:58 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
classified nuclear documentsNay, 𝕁𝔽ℍℂ!!! at the very least.
jfc
This is getting so unbelievable. We may be looking at a treason trial for the ages.
posted by y2karl at 7:09 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think it's funny that Trumpists (such as DeSantis) refer to Mar-a-Lago as MAL. Mal is Spanish for bad or evil.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:13 PM on August 11, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:13 PM on August 11, 2022 [15 favorites]
At this point, all the important secrets that asshole took from the White House have probably spread to every competent intelligence agency in the world months ago. Trump brought this into the news to preempt whatever is about to actually drop, similar to the Bill Barr Mueller report bullshit. At the same time, "surely fucking this..."
posted by Dr. Christ at 7:29 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Dr. Christ at 7:29 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Treason" has a specific legal definition. Trump has done many anti-American, anti-democratic, anti-common-decency things, but treason is not one of them.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:30 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:30 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yeah, he committed all kinds of treason, just not legal-definition treason. You're right that there won't be a treason trial where he charged with treason.
But outside of that specific legal context the treasonous bastard did all the treason.
posted by VTX at 7:41 PM on August 11, 2022 [15 favorites]
But outside of that specific legal context the treasonous bastard did all the treason.
posted by VTX at 7:41 PM on August 11, 2022 [15 favorites]
He asked Russia to interfere with US elections, which is treasonous. Some of the underlying details are documented, even if it is unlikely he and his famiglia will ever face charges.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:47 PM on August 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:47 PM on August 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
Yes, the entire reason that the US Constitution defines treason so narrowly (or at all) is that it has a meaning which encompasses a much wider array of acts.
posted by wierdo at 7:48 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 7:48 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
New GOP slogan: “Back the blue ‘til they come for you.”
posted by metatuesday at 7:54 PM on August 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by metatuesday at 7:54 PM on August 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
"There's a good chance I may have committed some...light...treason."
posted by kirkaracha at 7:56 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 7:56 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
When done with splitting that gnat's ass hair ...just not legal-definition treason blah blah Trump has done many.... things, but treason is not one of them woof woof of what is not treason, guys, please return the microcalipers back to the lab. Jesus.
Talk about unimagining the unimaginable.
posted by y2karl at 8:34 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Talk about unimagining the unimaginable.
posted by y2karl at 8:34 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Trump: Not only will I not oppose the release of documents related to the unAmerican, unwarranted, and unnecessary raid and break-in of my home in Palm Beach, Florida, Mar-a-Lago, I am going a step further by ENCOURAGING the immediate release of those documents… [real]
posted by Rumple at 8:55 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 8:55 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
“If that is true, it would suggest that material residing unlawfully at Mar-a-Lago may have been classified at the highest classification level,” said David Laufman, the former chief of the Justice Department’s counterintelligence section, which investigates leaks of classified information. “If the FBI and the Department of Justice believed there were top secret materials still at Mar-a-Lago, that would lend itself to greater ‘hair-on-fire’ motivation to recover that material as quickly as possible.”posted by y2karl at 9:04 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
...Former senior intelligence officials said in interviews that during the Trump administration, highly classified intelligence about sensitive topics, including about intelligence-gathering on Iran, was routinely mishandled. One former official said the most highly classified information often ended up in the hands of personnel who didn’t appear to have a need to possess it or weren’t authorized to read it.
That former official also said signals intelligence — intercepted electronic communications like emails and phone calls of foreign leaders — was among the type of information that often ended up with unauthorized personnel. Such intercepts are among the most closely guarded secrets because of what they can reveal about how the United States has penetrated foreign governments.
A person familiar with the inventory of 15 boxes taken from Mar-a-Lago in January indicated that signals intelligence material was included in them. The precise nature of the information was unclear.
I'm guessing the reason that they checked Donald Trump's safe was to show that documents were not being kept there.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:06 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:06 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
I am going a step further by ENCOURAGING the immediate release of those documents
Wrong documents, you idiot. Nobody's asking your permission to release the TS documents you had. That ain't happening. We're talking about the warrant and evidence that you have (or had) the documents.
posted by ctmf at 9:15 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Wrong documents, you idiot. Nobody's asking your permission to release the TS documents you had. That ain't happening. We're talking about the warrant and evidence that you have (or had) the documents.
posted by ctmf at 9:15 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
From the Lincoln Project video orange swan linked above:
- [Narrator] But who leaked? Who sold you out? Was it Jared?
- [Whispering Woman] Ungrateful.
- [Narrator] Ivanka?
- [Whispering Woman] They’re backing away from you.
- [Narrator] Don Junior?
- [Whispering Woman] Your own son.
- [Narrator] Eric?
- [Whispering Woman] Do you even care?
*Damn*
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:19 PM on August 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
- [Narrator] But who leaked? Who sold you out? Was it Jared?
- [Whispering Woman] Ungrateful.
- [Narrator] Ivanka?
- [Whispering Woman] They’re backing away from you.
- [Narrator] Don Junior?
- [Whispering Woman] Your own son.
- [Narrator] Eric?
- [Whispering Woman] Do you even care?
*Damn*
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:19 PM on August 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
“If the FBI and the Department of Justice believed there were top secret materials still at Mar-a-Lago, that would lend itself to greater ‘hair-on-fire’ motivation to recover that material as quickly as possible.”
Then I must join the chorus asking, if this is the case, why did it take so long to do this? Hair on fire but it's a look that suits us?
posted by disentir at 9:34 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Then I must join the chorus asking, if this is the case, why did it take so long to do this? Hair on fire but it's a look that suits us?
posted by disentir at 9:34 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
They had to wait for him to be in NYC, for one thing. Had they served the warrant while he was there could have gotten hot fast. And yes I'm talking about the incident in Cincinnati.
Personally I'm rooting for espionage, attempted espionage, theft at a high level, assholery, douchebaggery, sexual assault, sedition, incitement of many sorts, tax evasion, fraud, jaywalking, and failure to fight me in 5 rounds of charity boxing anytime, anywhere.
posted by vrakatar at 9:42 PM on August 11, 2022 [18 favorites]
Personally I'm rooting for espionage, attempted espionage, theft at a high level, assholery, douchebaggery, sexual assault, sedition, incitement of many sorts, tax evasion, fraud, jaywalking, and failure to fight me in 5 rounds of charity boxing anytime, anywhere.
posted by vrakatar at 9:42 PM on August 11, 2022 [18 favorites]
In my more than four decades of adulthood the only time I have been seriously concerned about nuclear war was during the Trump presidency.
This latest news surprises me not in the slightest.
posted by Pouteria at 9:45 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
This latest news surprises me not in the slightest.
posted by Pouteria at 9:45 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
The Onion, 2017: Mar-A-Lago Assistant Manager Wondering If Anyone Coming To Collect Nuclear Briefcase From Lost And Found
posted by Rumple at 10:04 PM on August 11, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 10:04 PM on August 11, 2022 [19 favorites]
From today's Letters from an American by the wonderful historian Heather Cox Richardson:
posted by kristi at 10:07 PM on August 11, 2022 [10 favorites]
Another right-wing talking point about the search fell apart today as well. Fox News Channel personalities have argued that the Justice Department should simply have issued a subpoena for the material. “Get a subpoena, he will give it back,” Jesse Watters said. “It’s not like Trump won’t cooperate.” But in fact it turns out the DOJ did deliver a subpoena two months ago, and the former president did not comply.Richardson also reports that the Jan. 6 Committee
...
But what springs to mind for me is the plan pushed by Trump’s first national security advisor, Michael Flynn, Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner, and fundraiser and campaign advisor Tom Barrack, to transfer nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia. In 2019, whistleblowers from the National Security Council worried that their efforts might have broken the law and that the effort to make the transfer was ongoing. The plan was to enable Saudi leaders to build nuclear power plants, a plan that would have yielded billions of dollars to the investors but would have allowed Saudi Arabia to build nuclear weapons.
has interviewed the former secretary of transportation in the Trump administration, Elaine Chao, and is in discussions with former education secretary Betsy DeVos and former national security advisor Robert O’Brien. Former secretary of state Mike Pompeo met with the committee on Tuesday. At least nine Cabinet-level officials either have talked to the committee or are negotiating the terms of interviews. One of the topics has been the attempt to remove Trump through the 25th Amendment after the events of January 6.As many of us know, Ms. Chao is married to Senator Mitch McConnell. And in one of MANY many many instances where members of the former administration acted in ways that could enrich themselves or their families, Wikipedia notes, "During her tenure as Transportation Secretary in the Trump administration, the Transportation Department's inspector general found numerous instances where Chao used her office to promote her family's shipping business."
posted by kristi at 10:07 PM on August 11, 2022 [10 favorites]
Okay, I just want to emphasize that we have a President who's deeply in debt to various really shady characters, who has deep ties to some of the worst dictators in the world, who's just lost an election, and he's just fired the head of the National Nuclear Security Agency.
I'm pretty convinced that some advanced American nuclear armaments are going to be showing up on the arch-villain equivalent of Ebay sometime soon.
posted by MrVisible at 7:07 AM on November 7, 2020 [18 favorites +] [!]
Called it.
posted by MrVisible at 10:10 PM on August 11, 2022 [34 favorites]
I'm pretty convinced that some advanced American nuclear armaments are going to be showing up on the arch-villain equivalent of Ebay sometime soon.
posted by MrVisible at 7:07 AM on November 7, 2020 [18 favorites +] [!]
Called it.
posted by MrVisible at 10:10 PM on August 11, 2022 [34 favorites]
I am going a step further by ENCOURAGING the immediate release of those documents… [real]
You have copies of the warrant and the inventory that you can release at any time, you useless turdblossom.
posted by nubs at 10:10 PM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
You have copies of the warrant and the inventory that you can release at any time, you useless turdblossom.
posted by nubs at 10:10 PM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
My first thought when the whole "Trump took boxes of documents home with him" was, oh, those are definitely his letters from Kim Jong Un, right? But instead maybe it's some other souvenir relating to the North Korean nuke program.
pretty pictures of someone else’s nuclear program, achieved through previously undisclosed but now obvious technology, is also his style.
Remember when he tweeted a full-res photo of an Iranian space launch that went kablooey... a photo taken by one of our tip toppest secret spy satellites? What a time that was. Maybe he kept some more photos? He obviously was enamored with the one he tweeted.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:22 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
pretty pictures of someone else’s nuclear program, achieved through previously undisclosed but now obvious technology, is also his style.
Remember when he tweeted a full-res photo of an Iranian space launch that went kablooey... a photo taken by one of our tip toppest secret spy satellites? What a time that was. Maybe he kept some more photos? He obviously was enamored with the one he tweeted.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:22 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think it's funny that Trumpists (such as DeSantis) refer to Mar-a-Lago as MAL. Mal is Spanish for bad or evil.
I just had a vision of DeSantis cruising Miami Beach in an immaculately restored Chevy Nova.
posted by skyscraper at 10:33 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
I just had a vision of DeSantis cruising Miami Beach in an immaculately restored Chevy Nova.
posted by skyscraper at 10:33 PM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
FBI searched Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home for classified nuclear weapons documents – report
The Guardian quoting The Washington Post and generally summing up what we think we know right now, not paywalled
posted by mumimor at 11:16 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
The Guardian quoting The Washington Post and generally summing up what we think we know right now, not paywalled
posted by mumimor at 11:16 PM on August 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
I wonder if this is the sort of post-presidential life DJT imagined for himself when he descended that golden escalator and called Mexicans rapists.
I'm pretty sure he honestly thought he'd have the job until the day he died.
posted by non canadian guy at 12:09 AM on August 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
I'm pretty sure he honestly thought he'd have the job until the day he died.
posted by non canadian guy at 12:09 AM on August 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
I think the show runners are finally edging this series towards the finale. I really appreciate how they are tying up the opening themes with the espionage and treason to provide closure by ending with espionage and treason.
posted by cytherea at 1:01 AM on August 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by cytherea at 1:01 AM on August 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
Yeah, he committed all kinds of treason, just not legal-definition treason. You're right that there won't be a treason trial where he charged with treason.
The Rosenbergs were never charged with treason either.
posted by acb at 1:51 AM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
The Rosenbergs were never charged with treason either.
posted by acb at 1:51 AM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
The Rosenbergs were never charged with treason either.
posted by acb at 1:51 AM on August 12 [+] [!]
The same for Trump? Oh! That would be dreamy.
But it's not gonna happen. Hopefully what we are seeing is the regular government doing regular government things, like defending the constitution and the rule of law. That, really is all I ask. Seems reasonable.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:09 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by acb at 1:51 AM on August 12 [+] [!]
The same for Trump? Oh! That would be dreamy.
But it's not gonna happen. Hopefully what we are seeing is the regular government doing regular government things, like defending the constitution and the rule of law. That, really is all I ask. Seems reasonable.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:09 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
- [Narrator] Ivanka?
- [Whispering Woman] They’re backing away from you.
- [Narrator] Don Junior?
- [Whispering Woman] Your own son.
- [Narrator] Eric?
- [Whispering Woman] Do you even care?
*Damn*
- [Narrator] Tiffany?
- [Whispering Woman] Who?
posted by Mchelly at 3:24 AM on August 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
- [Whispering Woman] They’re backing away from you.
- [Narrator] Don Junior?
- [Whispering Woman] Your own son.
- [Narrator] Eric?
- [Whispering Woman] Do you even care?
*Damn*
- [Narrator] Tiffany?
- [Whispering Woman] Who?
posted by Mchelly at 3:24 AM on August 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
I read a twitter the other day by someone who seemed knowledgeable about the process( which I can't locate now), that said this is just to get the sensitive documents back into the possession of the government and out of TFGs possession and that once that was done that would be it, no charges filed or anything. They had tried to get the documents previously via subpeona and since that failed this is their way of securing them.
I hope this is not the case, but what are the odds this is the case?
posted by newpotato at 3:27 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
I hope this is not the case, but what are the odds this is the case?
posted by newpotato at 3:27 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
this has. to.be a dumb take because documents can be.. copied
posted by lalochezia at 3:41 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 3:41 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
The Guardian just gave me a little trip down memory lane. It was ugly.
The suspected presence of nuclear weapons documents at Mar-a-Lago could explain why Garland took such a politically charged step as ordering FBI agents into a former president’s house, as retrieving them would be seen as a national security priority.
Trump was particularly fixated on the US nuclear arsenal while he was in the White House, and boasted about being privy to highly secret information.
In the summer of 2017 he told US military leaders he wanted an arsenal comparable to its cold war peak, which would have involved a ten-fold increase, a demand that reportedly led the then secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, describe him as a “fucking moron”. Trump publicly threatened to obliterate both North Korea and Afghanistan.
Trump publicly threatened to obliterate both North Korea and Afghanistan.
Remember this? From Vanity Fair.
... in his forthcoming memoir, A Sacred Oath, former Defense Secretary Mark Esper recounts that in the summer of 2020, Trump asked, on at least two occasions, if the military could “shoot missiles into Mexico to destroy the drug labs,” saying, “They don’t have control of their own country.” Told all the various reasons this idea was a non-starter, the then president insisted that they could do it “quietly,” adding: “no one would know it was us.” Apparently informed that yes, in fact, people would know it was the U.S., Trump responded that he would simply lie and say we didn’t do it. While this obviously sounds absolutely insane, Trump has actually floated similar ideas in public. (In a speech to Republican donors in March, Trump suggested that the U.S. should “put the Chinese flag” on its military planes, “bomb the shit” out of Russia, “and then we say, China did it, we didn’t do it, China did it, and [let them] start fighting with each other.”)
While it never occurred to me TFG would take nuclear and other classified information home after he got booted out of the White House, I can't say it is surprising. I bet this guy takes anything that isn't nailed down whenever he visits a place. And as noted by others above, it's always a grift with that guy (and he relatives). Of course he would lift classified docs if he thought there was money to be made.
Finally, a Politico snap poll claims that roughly half of registered voters surveyed approve of the FBI search on Mar-A-Lago and "Most voters believe Trump broke the law as president."
posted by Bella Donna at 4:25 AM on August 12, 2022 [16 favorites]
The suspected presence of nuclear weapons documents at Mar-a-Lago could explain why Garland took such a politically charged step as ordering FBI agents into a former president’s house, as retrieving them would be seen as a national security priority.
Trump was particularly fixated on the US nuclear arsenal while he was in the White House, and boasted about being privy to highly secret information.
In the summer of 2017 he told US military leaders he wanted an arsenal comparable to its cold war peak, which would have involved a ten-fold increase, a demand that reportedly led the then secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, describe him as a “fucking moron”. Trump publicly threatened to obliterate both North Korea and Afghanistan.
Trump publicly threatened to obliterate both North Korea and Afghanistan.
Remember this? From Vanity Fair.
... in his forthcoming memoir, A Sacred Oath, former Defense Secretary Mark Esper recounts that in the summer of 2020, Trump asked, on at least two occasions, if the military could “shoot missiles into Mexico to destroy the drug labs,” saying, “They don’t have control of their own country.” Told all the various reasons this idea was a non-starter, the then president insisted that they could do it “quietly,” adding: “no one would know it was us.” Apparently informed that yes, in fact, people would know it was the U.S., Trump responded that he would simply lie and say we didn’t do it. While this obviously sounds absolutely insane, Trump has actually floated similar ideas in public. (In a speech to Republican donors in March, Trump suggested that the U.S. should “put the Chinese flag” on its military planes, “bomb the shit” out of Russia, “and then we say, China did it, we didn’t do it, China did it, and [let them] start fighting with each other.”)
While it never occurred to me TFG would take nuclear and other classified information home after he got booted out of the White House, I can't say it is surprising. I bet this guy takes anything that isn't nailed down whenever he visits a place. And as noted by others above, it's always a grift with that guy (and he relatives). Of course he would lift classified docs if he thought there was money to be made.
Finally, a Politico snap poll claims that roughly half of registered voters surveyed approve of the FBI search on Mar-A-Lago and "Most voters believe Trump broke the law as president."
posted by Bella Donna at 4:25 AM on August 12, 2022 [16 favorites]
this has. to.be a dumb take because documents can be.. copied
I mean, it's not that dumb a take, because we are talking about government bureaucracy here - whether documents could be copied is not the point, the point is that classified documents need to be in the hands of the appropriate government entities, not private citizens, and Trump was not cooperating in returning the documents. Determining what Trump may have done with those documents while he had them is the next step, the first priority is to get them back.
The ironic part is that Trump even possessing them could be a felony, because Trump himself signed a law making it so as part of his "lock her up" victory dance, when he swallowed his own bullshit and thought that Clinton's email was a real thing he could actually prosecute her for .
posted by soundguy99 at 4:32 AM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I mean, it's not that dumb a take, because we are talking about government bureaucracy here - whether documents could be copied is not the point, the point is that classified documents need to be in the hands of the appropriate government entities, not private citizens, and Trump was not cooperating in returning the documents. Determining what Trump may have done with those documents while he had them is the next step, the first priority is to get them back.
The ironic part is that Trump even possessing them could be a felony, because Trump himself signed a law making it so as part of his "lock her up" victory dance, when he swallowed his own bullshit and thought that Clinton's email was a real thing he could actually prosecute her for .
posted by soundguy99 at 4:32 AM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
It also seems ironic, in a sort of Al Capone tax evasion way, that President Superthug, the man who hasn't stopped criming since he was a toddler, might finally get convicted for the presidential equivalent of not returning library books.
posted by box at 5:49 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by box at 5:49 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Still no mention of the nuclear angle on Fox News. We might actually have an answer to "surely this..." because I can't see even the majority of their viewership being okay with it. I'd give a lot to be a fly on the wall there right now.
posted by Ryvar at 5:55 AM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Ryvar at 5:55 AM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
I can't see even the majority of their viewership being okay with it
This is me predicting that they totally will be.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:00 AM on August 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
This is me predicting that they totally will be.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:00 AM on August 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
My Trumpy relatives aren't even slightly bothered. "More fake news from the Washington Post". Sigh. BTW, I hope they've got their sources nailed down tight. If this turns out to be a Nothingburger, I'll never hear the end of it arount the Thanksgiving table.
posted by Optamystic at 6:03 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Optamystic at 6:03 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
To be fair - no other major outlets are reporting the nuclear angle as far as I can see.
posted by saturday_morning at 6:04 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 6:04 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
I did notice that, saturday_morning. Maybe it's an "exclusive"? Or maybe Bezos & company done fucked up.
posted by Optamystic at 6:08 AM on August 12, 2022
posted by Optamystic at 6:08 AM on August 12, 2022
To be fair - no other major outlets are reporting the nuclear angle as far as I can see.
It's the top headline on CNN.com in giant block text. Usually FN are pretty quick to post talking point rebuttals to that kind of thing so their fans can "yes, but..." the liberals in their lives.
posted by Ryvar at 6:18 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's the top headline on CNN.com in giant block text. Usually FN are pretty quick to post talking point rebuttals to that kind of thing so their fans can "yes, but..." the liberals in their lives.
posted by Ryvar at 6:18 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's the top headline on CNN.com in giant block text.
Yes, and the Guardian now as well. Things changed during my morning commute!
posted by saturday_morning at 6:19 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yes, and the Guardian now as well. Things changed during my morning commute!
posted by saturday_morning at 6:19 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
If this turns out to be a Nothingburger
History suggests this will be the case. Time and time again it appears Don has finally gone to far, but nothing ever seems to stick.
posted by chaz at 6:25 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
History suggests this will be the case. Time and time again it appears Don has finally gone to far, but nothing ever seems to stick.
posted by chaz at 6:25 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
Trump publicly threatened to obliterate both North Korea and Afghanistan.
He also said he wanted to nuke hurricanes.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:29 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
He also said he wanted to nuke hurricanes.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:29 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
CNN and The Guardian are basing their stories on the report in WaPo. It may be solid, but so far it looks like they’re the only outlet that has sources on this being specifically about nuclear documents. Others, such as the NYTimes, are referring to them as materials from “special access programs”.
posted by theory at 6:39 AM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by theory at 6:39 AM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's a hell of a claim to make (and a hell of a situation if true) and the contents of the warrant should be out soon so I don't blame news outlets for waiting to report it if they don't have their own sources.
posted by saturday_morning at 6:42 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 6:42 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
And I suspect that even if Trump registers an objection to the release, the judge would release it anyway, because it’s the judge’s call on balancing the public interest. And this is, uh, kind of important.
posted by notoriety public at 6:45 AM on August 12, 2022
posted by notoriety public at 6:45 AM on August 12, 2022
Whether it's about nuclear secrets would be established once the warrant is released, yes? So the WaPo felt confident enough to report the contention knowing it'd be confirmed or denied soon.
posted by Gelatin at 6:46 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 6:46 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Even if they found a gift-wrapped box of weapons-grade plutonium, my Uncle and his buddies at The Villages would be cool with it, so I doubt whatever they have found is going to matter much in the long run.
posted by Optamystic at 6:48 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Optamystic at 6:48 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
whatever they have found is going to matter
All of the right wingers have already moved to "whatever they have planted."
Oh, and hi Optamystic!
posted by terrapin at 6:54 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
All of the right wingers have already moved to "whatever they have planted."
Oh, and hi Optamystic!
posted by terrapin at 6:54 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Trump has now moved to "they planted the nuclear docs."
posted by BungaDunga at 6:57 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 6:57 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
"bitch set me up"
posted by saturday_morning at 7:03 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 7:03 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Even if they found a gift-wrapped box of weapons-grade plutonium, my Uncle and his buddies at The Villages would be cool with it, so I doubt whatever they have found is going to matter much in the long run.
Again, who cares what the Trump cultists think? Of course Trump cultists are denying objective reality, because they have no choice. Changing their minds isn't going to happen, and is totally beside the point.
Trump supporters aren't the entirety of the Republican Party, and Republicans aren't the entirety of the electorate by a good margin.
So ongoing revelations and ironclad proof of Trump's criminality just might convince Republicans who are not part of the personality cult and independents, especially in the suburban swing districts. It'll also influence the way the media frames their stories; they have never quite adjusted to Trump committing crimes and scandals in the open, but a coverup? Mishandling classified information? Hiding nuclear secrets?! That they know how to handle. And Trump doesn't have the powers of the presidency to shield him any more. He's a private citizen, and a crook at that.
posted by Gelatin at 7:04 AM on August 12, 2022 [24 favorites]
Again, who cares what the Trump cultists think? Of course Trump cultists are denying objective reality, because they have no choice. Changing their minds isn't going to happen, and is totally beside the point.
Trump supporters aren't the entirety of the Republican Party, and Republicans aren't the entirety of the electorate by a good margin.
So ongoing revelations and ironclad proof of Trump's criminality just might convince Republicans who are not part of the personality cult and independents, especially in the suburban swing districts. It'll also influence the way the media frames their stories; they have never quite adjusted to Trump committing crimes and scandals in the open, but a coverup? Mishandling classified information? Hiding nuclear secrets?! That they know how to handle. And Trump doesn't have the powers of the presidency to shield him any more. He's a private citizen, and a crook at that.
posted by Gelatin at 7:04 AM on August 12, 2022 [24 favorites]
Trump has now moved to "they planted the nuclear docs."
Tell it to the judge.
posted by Gelatin at 7:06 AM on August 12, 2022 [20 favorites]
Tell it to the judge.
posted by Gelatin at 7:06 AM on August 12, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by orange swan
Orange swan (/ˈôrənj ˈswän/)
Noun
1. An unpredictable or unforeseen event caused by Former President Trump, typically one with extreme consequences.
"Global nuclear war due to an orange swan”
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:58 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
Orange swan (/ˈôrənj ˈswän/)
Noun
1. An unpredictable or unforeseen event caused by Former President Trump, typically one with extreme consequences.
"Global nuclear war due to an orange swan”
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:58 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
Trump supporters aren't the entirety of the Republican Party, and Republicans aren't the entirety of the electorate by a good margin
Mostly I’m thinking of my evangelical fundie family, who will always vote against abortion rights every time, but actually read their Bible and are keenly aware that a substantial portion of Christ’s purported teachings were spent ripping apart rich people who match Trump down to the last detail. I’m pretty sure one of them manages to square that circle and votes Trump anyway, but the majority are anti-Trump Republicans.
What I’m hoping for, really, is that this stops being a quietly held position out of fear of alienating fellow members of their church who might be full-blown supporters, and because it’s a more classically conservative congregration with a large retired military presence, it’s legit possible this one moves the needle in their peer group.
…or maybe not, but it’s the first thing I’ve seen in forever that plausibly could, y’know?
posted by Ryvar at 8:00 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
Mostly I’m thinking of my evangelical fundie family, who will always vote against abortion rights every time, but actually read their Bible and are keenly aware that a substantial portion of Christ’s purported teachings were spent ripping apart rich people who match Trump down to the last detail. I’m pretty sure one of them manages to square that circle and votes Trump anyway, but the majority are anti-Trump Republicans.
What I’m hoping for, really, is that this stops being a quietly held position out of fear of alienating fellow members of their church who might be full-blown supporters, and because it’s a more classically conservative congregration with a large retired military presence, it’s legit possible this one moves the needle in their peer group.
…or maybe not, but it’s the first thing I’ve seen in forever that plausibly could, y’know?
posted by Ryvar at 8:00 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
emptywheel: THREE WAYS MERRICK GARLAND AND DOJ SPOKE OF TRUMP AS IF HE MIGHT BE INDICTED
I want to look at three ways that Attorney General Merrick Garland and DOJ spoke of Trump yesterday using language that acknowledges the possibility he will be indicted.posted by kingless at 8:02 AM on August 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
They were subtle, but consistent references based in DOJ’s policy, one Garland’s DOJ has adhered to inflexibly, about avoiding discussion of any suspect unless they have been charged.
Tell it to the judge.
Honestly curious here, what is the common response to that in court?
Does the FBI have some procedure to show their work? Can they videotape themselves entering a building and doing the search and going "aha! here's something!".
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:05 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Honestly curious here, what is the common response to that in court?
Does the FBI have some procedure to show their work? Can they videotape themselves entering a building and doing the search and going "aha! here's something!".
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:05 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
The easiest response would be that the FBI doesn't normally have access to the documents. They'd have to get classified information from the military, and hope that there aren't any whistleblowers for a ridiculously illegal operation.
posted by Spike Glee at 8:11 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Spike Glee at 8:11 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
Trump has now moved to "they planted the nuclear docs."
another own goal insofar as he's now admitted they exist. In other words ... "More fake news from the Washington Post" no longer stands as a counterargument.
posted by philip-random at 8:55 AM on August 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
another own goal insofar as he's now admitted they exist. In other words ... "More fake news from the Washington Post" no longer stands as a counterargument.
posted by philip-random at 8:55 AM on August 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
Trump has now moved to "they planted the nuclear docs."
Huh. I wasn't going to get too excited about the prospect of there being nuclear documents listed in the search warrant, since that didn't mean the FBI found them, but that makes it more promising.
posted by tavella at 8:58 AM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Huh. I wasn't going to get too excited about the prospect of there being nuclear documents listed in the search warrant, since that didn't mean the FBI found them, but that makes it more promising.
posted by tavella at 8:58 AM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Trump Admin Weirdly Eager to Hand the Saudis Nuclear Secrets, Vanity Fair, March 2019
Something you may have picked up on over the past 30 months is that the Trump administration considers Saudi Arabia to be a close personal friend, the kind for whom it would do just about anything. Thus far, that has included arming the erratic, murderous kingdom with billions of dollars' worth of missiles and letting it get away with murdering a U.S. resident, while one-time allies like France, Germany, the U.K., and Canada are told to rot in hell. And now, the U.S. is taking things to the next level. According to the Daily Beast, the Trump administration has given six U.S. companies the green light to sell nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia, a relationship milestone every authoritarian nation dreams of.posted by kirkaracha at 9:04 AM on August 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
LegalEagle has a video on the seizure. Very entertaining towards the end as late-breaking developments roll in while he's making the vid.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:06 AM on August 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:06 AM on August 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
People talk about someone inside Trump's inner circle talking. What I think is:
#1. Trump tried to bargain with the Saudis about nuclear secrets.
#2. Someone on the Saudi side is a U.S. Intelligence asset and leaked this information.
Which is to say, we will probably never know.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:34 AM on August 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
#1. Trump tried to bargain with the Saudis about nuclear secrets.
#2. Someone on the Saudi side is a U.S. Intelligence asset and leaked this information.
Which is to say, we will probably never know.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:34 AM on August 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
People talk about someone inside Trump's inner circle talking. What I think is:
#1. Trump tried to bargain with the Saudis about nuclear secrets.
#2. Someone on the Saudi side is a U.S. Intelligence asset and leaked this information.
Which is to say, we will probably never know.
Good take. But everything Trump is stupid, so I'm just thinking that Ivanka told the jan 6 Commission and they reported it on to the FBI.
posted by mumimor at 9:49 AM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
#1. Trump tried to bargain with the Saudis about nuclear secrets.
#2. Someone on the Saudi side is a U.S. Intelligence asset and leaked this information.
Which is to say, we will probably never know.
Good take. But everything Trump is stupid, so I'm just thinking that Ivanka told the jan 6 Commission and they reported it on to the FBI.
posted by mumimor at 9:49 AM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Does this mean we should expect to see the release of documents shortly after 3ET?
posted by geoff. at 9:52 AM on August 12, 2022
posted by geoff. at 9:52 AM on August 12, 2022
In other news....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:54 AM on August 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
CNN - A New York state judge denied the Trump Organization and its former chief financial officer Allen Weisselberg's motions to dismiss tax fraud charges during a hearing Friday. [...] Weisselberg and the Trump Organization were indicted last year on charges they were involved in a 15-year tax fraud scheme. They both pleaded not guilty. The judge said jury selection would begin in the trial on October 24.So if the fuss has died down about this raid come October, we have that lined up and ready to go.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:54 AM on August 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
One thing I’m wondering - on the big assumption that Trump did sell nuclear secrets - what is the right punishment here? How do you deter other and future office holders - which clearly you want to do, keep him shutdown from communicating more secrets, but also not make him a political rallying point for stupid Civil War 2.0 (which prison time might). Obviously the punishment would have to fit within the law he gets convicted of….but seems like a hard circle to square.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:57 AM on August 12, 2022
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:57 AM on August 12, 2022
One thing I’m wondering - on the big assumption that Trump did sell nuclear secrets - what is the right punishment here?
Well, I just saw one social-media comment that when they caught Julius and Ethyl Rosenberg selling nuclear secrets to the Soviets, we executed them.
Oh, and the lawyer who was behind making that case and arguing for that penalty? Trump's idol, Roy Cohn.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:59 AM on August 12, 2022 [29 favorites]
Well, I just saw one social-media comment that when they caught Julius and Ethyl Rosenberg selling nuclear secrets to the Soviets, we executed them.
Oh, and the lawyer who was behind making that case and arguing for that penalty? Trump's idol, Roy Cohn.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:59 AM on August 12, 2022 [29 favorites]
But guys, what about Obama?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:01 AM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
President Barack Hussein Obama kept 33 million pages of documents, much of them classified. How many of them pertained to nuclear? Word is, lots!True to his birther rooots, IMPOTUSx2 dusts off the savage "Barack Hussein Obama" "burn," which is so old Obama made fun of it in a video on his retirement plans he did at the White House Correspondents' Dinner.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:01 AM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
One thing I’m wondering - on the big assumption that Trump did sell nuclear secrets - what is the right punishment here?
Ask the Rosenbergs. But seriously a third impeachment trial would be appropriate to prevent him from running for office ever again, as well as a lengthy (de facto life) prison sentence for violating the espionage act.
posted by nathan_teske at 10:01 AM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ask the Rosenbergs. But seriously a third impeachment trial would be appropriate to prevent him from running for office ever again, as well as a lengthy (de facto life) prison sentence for violating the espionage act.
posted by nathan_teske at 10:01 AM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
The documents allegedly contain highly classified information. They will not be released. We will get a copy of the warrant and the inventory of things taken during search. The best we can hope for is some hints of what it is all about.
posted by interogative mood at 10:02 AM on August 12, 2022
posted by interogative mood at 10:02 AM on August 12, 2022
“When they say ‘treason’—you know what treason is? That’s Julius and Ethel Rosenberg for giving the atomic bomb, OK?”
— IMPOTUSx2
posted by kirkaracha at 10:05 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
— IMPOTUSx2
posted by kirkaracha at 10:05 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
so there's this weird thing that doesn't add up to me and keeps me from jumping to the conclusion that Trump Org has a nuclear spy sideline.
If you're going to traffic in classified documents, why keep the actual paper around? Does the paper copy have power or value that a scan of the paper doesn't? How does a document crime like that go down? Is the buyer going to insist on originals?
I know these goofballs are slipshod and untouchable but their hypothetical customers probably aren't.
posted by Sauce Trough at 10:14 AM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
If you're going to traffic in classified documents, why keep the actual paper around? Does the paper copy have power or value that a scan of the paper doesn't? How does a document crime like that go down? Is the buyer going to insist on originals?
I know these goofballs are slipshod and untouchable but their hypothetical customers probably aren't.
posted by Sauce Trough at 10:14 AM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
<🍔>Ah, but you see, the Rosenbergs were convicted of Aiding The Enemy, as they gave the bomb to the Godless Communists. Trump, meanwhile, gave it to Saudi Arabia, a platinum-tier Liberty Eagle ally, who have arguably done more than anyone in fighting against Godless Communism (they even execute atheists for terrorism there), so it's not the same.</🍔>
posted by acb at 10:15 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by acb at 10:15 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
President Barack Hussein Obama kept 33 million pages of documents, much of them classified. How many of them pertained to nuclear? Word is, lots!
Is it me or did this fucker just confirm he took nuclear documents?
I would say "he just tweeted it out" except it was a shitty pretend tweet instead of an actual tweet because he got his tweeting keys taken away.
posted by saturday_morning at 10:17 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Is it me or did this fucker just confirm he took nuclear documents?
I would say "he just tweeted it out" except it was a shitty pretend tweet instead of an actual tweet because he got his tweeting keys taken away.
posted by saturday_morning at 10:17 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Trump Admin Weirdly Eager to Hand the Saudis Nuclear Secrets
This was never weird. Trump had/has money problems and the Saudis have money. Remember they bought out all the rooms at his DC hotel on more than one occasion, at inflated rack rates, to name one obvious example. The 365 emoluments clause violations of the Trump crime family during the presidency should have been a bigger deal.
posted by Mitheral at 10:17 AM on August 12, 2022 [28 favorites]
This was never weird. Trump had/has money problems and the Saudis have money. Remember they bought out all the rooms at his DC hotel on more than one occasion, at inflated rack rates, to name one obvious example. The 365 emoluments clause violations of the Trump crime family during the presidency should have been a bigger deal.
posted by Mitheral at 10:17 AM on August 12, 2022 [28 favorites]
You know what really weirds me out about all of this? Up to a week ago, everybody lamented that Garland et al weren't doing enough, and were afraid he wouldn't do ANYTHING substantial as we get close to a general election. And then all of this blew up and now everybody is celebrating and excited that things are happening.
But...
The only reason Garland did a press briefing and moved to unseal the warrant was because people demanded it. And the only reason they demanded it was because they already knew about it. And the reason they knew about it was because TRUMP TOLD EVERYBODY his place was being raided.
If Trump hadn't said anything, literally nobody would have known about this, and Garland wouldn't have done the press briefing nor moved to unseal the warrant. We would all be feeling exactly the way we all felt a week ago.
I don't know if this means that a) Garland wanted to get this done and dusted before... going public? Going to Congress? Pressing charges? or b) just not doing anything at all until after the next election? or not at all?
I want to bask in the schadenfreude with everybody else and laugh at the orange moron, and his accelerating this and forcing Garland to change tactics and go public with this, but I'm also worried that this wasn't even the plan for the endgame, that they were just going to try to get the documents back and quietly shush all of this up and let it be dug up by Kennedy assassination-type conspiracy theorists long after everybody involved had died off.
posted by nushustu at 10:17 AM on August 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
But...
The only reason Garland did a press briefing and moved to unseal the warrant was because people demanded it. And the only reason they demanded it was because they already knew about it. And the reason they knew about it was because TRUMP TOLD EVERYBODY his place was being raided.
If Trump hadn't said anything, literally nobody would have known about this, and Garland wouldn't have done the press briefing nor moved to unseal the warrant. We would all be feeling exactly the way we all felt a week ago.
I don't know if this means that a) Garland wanted to get this done and dusted before... going public? Going to Congress? Pressing charges? or b) just not doing anything at all until after the next election? or not at all?
I want to bask in the schadenfreude with everybody else and laugh at the orange moron, and his accelerating this and forcing Garland to change tactics and go public with this, but I'm also worried that this wasn't even the plan for the endgame, that they were just going to try to get the documents back and quietly shush all of this up and let it be dug up by Kennedy assassination-type conspiracy theorists long after everybody involved had died off.
posted by nushustu at 10:17 AM on August 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'm also worried that this wasn't even the plan for the endgame, that they were just going to try to get the documents back and quietly shush all of this up
Or indict him once they had the goods.
posted by saturday_morning at 10:20 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Or indict him once they had the goods.
posted by saturday_morning at 10:20 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
I would say “he just tweeted it out” except it was a shitty pretend tweet instead of an actual tweet because he got his tweeting keys taken away.
Seeing his dang pseudo-tweets show up again is giving me horrible flashbacks and I hate it.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:20 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
Seeing his dang pseudo-tweets show up again is giving me horrible flashbacks and I hate it.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:20 AM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
If Trump hadn't said anything, literally nobody would have known about this,
The story was going around Florida politics circles before Trump said anything publicly. That's how a local Florida reporter tweeted out the story before anyone else.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:24 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
The story was going around Florida politics circles before Trump said anything publicly. That's how a local Florida reporter tweeted out the story before anyone else.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:24 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
WSJ reporting:
posted by bcd at 10:28 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
FBI Recovered Eleven Sets of Classified Documents in Trump Search, Inventory Shows(The text above is actually from this offical Twitter thread promoting the article.)
The FBI agents took around 20 boxes of items, binders of photos, a handwritten note and the executive grant of clemency for Trump’s ally Roger Stone, a list of items removed from the property shows. Also included in the list was information about the “President of France.
The list includes references to one set of documents marked as “Various classified/TS/SCI documents." It also says agents collected four sets of top secret documents, three sets of secret documents, and three sets of confidential documents.
Agents sought to search “the 45 Office,” and "storage rooms and all other rooms or areas within the premises used or available to be used by [the former president] and his staff and in which boxes or documents could be stored, including all structures or buildings on the estate.”
posted by bcd at 10:28 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
A third impeachment trial? So his pet senators can acquit him a third time? No. He's a private citizen. His crimes must be prosecuted in exactly the same way as they would be for any other private citizen.
If his supporters rebel, they can be prosecuted for any and all crimes they commit in the course of their rebellion.
Handling things any other way is admitting the game is already over.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 10:32 AM on August 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
If his supporters rebel, they can be prosecuted for any and all crimes they commit in the course of their rebellion.
Handling things any other way is admitting the game is already over.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 10:32 AM on August 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
Nah, impeach him again. Get the R’s on record that this is 100% fine.
Prosecute as well, obviously.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:35 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Prosecute as well, obviously.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:35 AM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
A third impeachment trial?
Theory being, that's the officially proper way to ensure he can never hold office again. Doesn't mean that should be in place of criminal prosecution.
posted by bcd at 10:35 AM on August 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
Theory being, that's the officially proper way to ensure he can never hold office again. Doesn't mean that should be in place of criminal prosecution.
posted by bcd at 10:35 AM on August 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
Seems like a conviction on the Records Act would be a lot easier way to ensure he can't hold office again and doesn't need congress at all. #AlCapone.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:38 AM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:38 AM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
There appears to be debate in the legal community (even among progressive lawyers) about whether that clause applies to running for president. Certainly when the right was trying to claim it would preclude Hillary Clinton from being elected "because her emails!" the liberal law profs thought that was nonsense.
The other issue being timelines and appeals and a stacked SCOTUS - the odds of getting Trump convicted criminally before 2024 seem low. I mean, it should be started, posthaste, but impeachment is certainly faster.
posted by bcd at 10:43 AM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
The other issue being timelines and appeals and a stacked SCOTUS - the odds of getting Trump convicted criminally before 2024 seem low. I mean, it should be started, posthaste, but impeachment is certainly faster.
posted by bcd at 10:43 AM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
inflatablekiwi There is absolutely no way to peanlize Trump that his cultists will not attempt to use as a rallying cry to kick off a civil war.
Our choices are to either a) let Trump go out of fear, or b) prosecute the criminal asshole and deal with his tiny rump of cultists trying to kick off a civil war.
I don't think they've got enough popular support to really get a civil war going over Trump being prosecuted. But if they do?
Let justice be done though the heavens fall.
It is **WORTH** Civil War v2.0 to finally tell the Republicans that there's a line they can't cross without penalties. Otherwise we'll just keep letting them do anything they want until they've reinstated slavery and made Trump a dictator.
posted by sotonohito at 10:48 AM on August 12, 2022 [42 favorites]
Our choices are to either a) let Trump go out of fear, or b) prosecute the criminal asshole and deal with his tiny rump of cultists trying to kick off a civil war.
I don't think they've got enough popular support to really get a civil war going over Trump being prosecuted. But if they do?
Let justice be done though the heavens fall.
It is **WORTH** Civil War v2.0 to finally tell the Republicans that there's a line they can't cross without penalties. Otherwise we'll just keep letting them do anything they want until they've reinstated slavery and made Trump a dictator.
posted by sotonohito at 10:48 AM on August 12, 2022 [42 favorites]
If IMPOTUS were to be impeached again, a 2/3 majority of the Senate would have to vote to convict, and then half of the Senate would need to vote to bar him from office.
An alternative would be for a simple majority of both houses of Congress to find he violated Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, which would bar IMPOTUS “Trump from holding another federal office if he is found to have ‘engaged in insurrection or rebellion against’ the Constitution of the United States.”
posted by kirkaracha at 11:01 AM on August 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
An alternative would be for a simple majority of both houses of Congress to find he violated Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, which would bar IMPOTUS “Trump from holding another federal office if he is found to have ‘engaged in insurrection or rebellion against’ the Constitution of the United States.”
posted by kirkaracha at 11:01 AM on August 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
It is **WORTH** Civil War v2.0 to finally tell the Republicans that there's a line they can't cross without penalties. Otherwise we'll just keep letting them do anything they want until they've reinstated slavery and made Trump a dictator.
Yes. I had never thought this would happen in my lifetime, but this is it. We have a radical right movement across the globe, and apart from them being generally obnoxious, they are also denying the threat to our home, Earth, that is global warming. We can't be tolerant of their lies and crimes any longer.
posted by mumimor at 11:03 AM on August 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
Short of the 14th Amendment noted above, if he is convicted of a federal crime it will not bar him from becoming president again. The Constitutional requirements rule over federal statutes.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:11 AM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:11 AM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
One thing I’m wondering - on the big assumption that Trump did sell nuclear secrets - what is the right punishment here?
Wikipedia: [John] Walker died while he was suffering from cancer and diabetes on August 28, 2014, while still in prison. He would have become eligible for parole in 2015.
Would be nice if Trump's cell had like, an open ceiling with bars, and tourists could pay $5 to piss or shit on him any time, for the rest of his life. (Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel, ctmf)
posted by ctmf at 11:13 AM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Wikipedia: [John] Walker died while he was suffering from cancer and diabetes on August 28, 2014, while still in prison. He would have become eligible for parole in 2015.
Would be nice if Trump's cell had like, an open ceiling with bars, and tourists could pay $5 to piss or shit on him any time, for the rest of his life. (Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel, ctmf)
posted by ctmf at 11:13 AM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Short of the 14th Amendment noted above, if he is convicted of a federal crime it will not bar him from becoming president again. The Constitutional requirements rule over federal statutes.
Even if he isn't convicted. If he ran again and won? Then the US has a bigger problem anyway. If after all this he still got a majority of the votes, then we should be looking at why the other side can't run anyone capable of convincing people not to vote for Trump.
posted by nushustu at 11:26 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Even if he isn't convicted. If he ran again and won? Then the US has a bigger problem anyway. If after all this he still got a majority of the votes, then we should be looking at why the other side can't run anyone capable of convincing people not to vote for Trump.
posted by nushustu at 11:26 AM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
A majority of votes? Did Trump ever need that?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:28 AM on August 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:28 AM on August 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
Yeah, worth remembering he has never received a majority of the votes.
posted by emelenjr at 11:34 AM on August 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 11:34 AM on August 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
Breitbart, so presumably direct from Trump-and-friends, reveals the statutes the warrant was issued under - 18 USC § 793, 2071, & 1519.
That 793 is better known as The Espionage Act. This is the one everyone's been talking about.
posted by bcd at 11:46 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
That 793 is better known as The Espionage Act. This is the one everyone's been talking about.
posted by bcd at 11:46 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
18 U.S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information
18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy
posted by bcd at 11:50 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
18 U.S. Code § 1519 - Destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in Federal investigations and bankruptcy
posted by bcd at 11:50 AM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
793 is a pretty big one...
posted by Windopaene at 11:52 AM on August 12, 2022
posted by Windopaene at 11:52 AM on August 12, 2022
I agree 793 is the big one, but to (non-lawyer) me 1519 reads as something that only comes up when there's intentional obstruction involved. That's very interesting too.
posted by bcd at 12:05 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by bcd at 12:05 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Wow, I love the internet, and how it gives us the ability to just directly read legal filings and laws and stuff for ourselves -
From bcd's link to 18 U.S. Code § 793:
Seems like enforcing that would require the parties to turn over all kinds of financial information.
posted by kristi at 12:10 PM on August 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
From bcd's link to 18 U.S. Code § 793:
(g) If two or more persons conspire to violate any of the foregoing provisions of this section, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy.So if there was any selling of information to other countries, all the proceeds are forfeit upon conviction.
(h)
(1) Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall forfeit to the United States, irrespective of any provision of State law, any property constituting, or derived from, any proceeds the person obtained, directly or indirectly, from any foreign government, or any faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States, as the result of such violation. For the purposes of this subsection, the term “State” includes a State of the United States, the District of Columbia, and any commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States.
Seems like enforcing that would require the parties to turn over all kinds of financial information.
posted by kristi at 12:10 PM on August 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
I kinda don't think he was planing on selling secrets to the Saudis or whoever. Not because he would't if he had the chance, but because he's extremely paranoid. How would he get away with it if the deep state were spying on him? He doesn't even trust people in his inner circle. He probably still worries about Obama bugging his phones.
The FBI agents took around 20 boxes of items, binders of photos, a handwritten note and the executive grant of clemency for Trump’s ally Roger Stone, a list of items removed from the property shows. Also included in the list was information about the “President of France.
See, this makes more sense. He collected documents that were important to him, never mind if they were classified or not. Trump doesn't understand the law, has no moral compass, and won't listen to his advisors, and, importantly, has no organizational skills. "Roger Stone's get out of jail card? Better hang on to that, that might be useful. Pictures where I look important? Yes, into the box. Are there more? Dirt on Macron? Ooh, spill it! I've always hated that guy. Ugh, this looks long...I'll read it later."
Cue Steve Martin in The Jerk yelling "That's all I need!"
posted by hydrophonic at 12:37 PM on August 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
The FBI agents took around 20 boxes of items, binders of photos, a handwritten note and the executive grant of clemency for Trump’s ally Roger Stone, a list of items removed from the property shows. Also included in the list was information about the “President of France.
See, this makes more sense. He collected documents that were important to him, never mind if they were classified or not. Trump doesn't understand the law, has no moral compass, and won't listen to his advisors, and, importantly, has no organizational skills. "Roger Stone's get out of jail card? Better hang on to that, that might be useful. Pictures where I look important? Yes, into the box. Are there more? Dirt on Macron? Ooh, spill it! I've always hated that guy. Ugh, this looks long...I'll read it later."
Cue Steve Martin in The Jerk yelling "That's all I need!"
posted by hydrophonic at 12:37 PM on August 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
The list includes references to one set of documents marked as “Various classified/TS/SCI documents."
That at least some of what he had was SCI is important insofar as it makes it harder to prevail with a claim of it being penny ante shit. Without knowing what exactly the documents contain, it's not hard to argue that it's not really a huge deal as far as mishandling of classified material goes. Overclassification is very much a thing, so a lot of stuff marked secret or even top secret is completely mundane stuff. Indeed, some of it could very well be nothing more than politically embarrassing or something stupid like a TSA policy manual*.
However, SCI is a lot more likely to be something that actually matters to national security.
* I don't know if it's still true, but the big binder of rules that contains the list of items you can't take through a TSA checkpoint was marked secret back in 2002. I know because a TSO at DFW, who incidentally smelled strongly of alcohol, whipped it out and showed me the list when I complained about not being allowed to take a (bladeless) crimping tool for Ethernet cables through on my way back home from a work thing. His position was that any "tool" was banned, never mind that "tool" was a heading under which things like axes, lawnmower blades, hedge trimmers, machetes, etc were listed.
The screener was upset that I didn't just believe her, so I got to have the conversation with a couple of cops and a member of the Texas National Guard with an M16 slung over his shoulder looking on. Fun times that turned me into a bit of a libertarian there for a while.
In the post-9/11 context it would be more than a bit alarming if the nuclear secrets Trump was hanging on to and probably trying to sell involved our means of detecting nuclear weapons.
posted by wierdo at 12:42 PM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
That at least some of what he had was SCI is important insofar as it makes it harder to prevail with a claim of it being penny ante shit. Without knowing what exactly the documents contain, it's not hard to argue that it's not really a huge deal as far as mishandling of classified material goes. Overclassification is very much a thing, so a lot of stuff marked secret or even top secret is completely mundane stuff. Indeed, some of it could very well be nothing more than politically embarrassing or something stupid like a TSA policy manual*.
However, SCI is a lot more likely to be something that actually matters to national security.
* I don't know if it's still true, but the big binder of rules that contains the list of items you can't take through a TSA checkpoint was marked secret back in 2002. I know because a TSO at DFW, who incidentally smelled strongly of alcohol, whipped it out and showed me the list when I complained about not being allowed to take a (bladeless) crimping tool for Ethernet cables through on my way back home from a work thing. His position was that any "tool" was banned, never mind that "tool" was a heading under which things like axes, lawnmower blades, hedge trimmers, machetes, etc were listed.
The screener was upset that I didn't just believe her, so I got to have the conversation with a couple of cops and a member of the Texas National Guard with an M16 slung over his shoulder looking on. Fun times that turned me into a bit of a libertarian there for a while.
In the post-9/11 context it would be more than a bit alarming if the nuclear secrets Trump was hanging on to and probably trying to sell involved our means of detecting nuclear weapons.
posted by wierdo at 12:42 PM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Saudi Arabia, a platinum-tier Liberty Eagle ally, who have arguably done more than anyone in fighting against Godless Communism (they even execute atheists for terrorism there)
And even more important than that stuff, they keep the oil flowing to power up those cartoonishly oversized pickups and SUVs with the similarly large “LET’S GO BRANDON” flags mounted in the back.
posted by non canadian guy at 12:52 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
And even more important than that stuff, they keep the oil flowing to power up those cartoonishly oversized pickups and SUVs with the similarly large “LET’S GO BRANDON” flags mounted in the back.
posted by non canadian guy at 12:52 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
The redacted search warrant and the receipts for seized property are here on the Florida Courts system (PDF).
posted by Rumple at 1:00 PM on August 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 1:00 PM on August 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
'lA - Info re: President of France '
is trump still bitter about the handshake?
posted by logicpunk at 1:06 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
is trump still bitter about the handshake?
posted by logicpunk at 1:06 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Just imagine claiming that this is the straw that broke the camel’s back for you. Just imagine the follow-up questions.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:12 PM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 1:12 PM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
The redacted search warrant and the receipts for seized property are here on the Florida Courts system (PDF).
Multiple line items for “miscellaneous top secret documents”. ThisIsFine.gif
posted by nathan_teske at 1:12 PM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Multiple line items for “miscellaneous top secret documents”. ThisIsFine.gif
posted by nathan_teske at 1:12 PM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
The moment that will you know that this is all legitimately going down is when someone's jet with a gold-plated toilet on board abruptly changes its flight plan from Florida to Murmansk.
posted by delfin at 1:17 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by delfin at 1:17 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
I am surprised at how little is redacted.
posted by swift at 1:17 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by swift at 1:17 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Someone really needs to make a gif of Michael Scott yelling "I declare UNCLASSIFIED!"
posted by hydrophonic at 1:22 PM on August 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by hydrophonic at 1:22 PM on August 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
Well, to paraphrase the Weather Girls:
It's Raining Shoes.
posted by y2karl at 1:27 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's Raining Shoes.
posted by y2karl at 1:27 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Hallelujah
posted by terrapin at 1:41 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by terrapin at 1:41 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
> I kinda don't think he was planing on selling secrets to the Saudis or whoever. Not because he would't if he had the chance, but because he's extremely paranoid. How would he get away with it if the deep state were spying on him? He doesn't even trust people in his inner circle. He probably still worries about Obama bugging his phones.
The guy who's never suffered consequences for criminal and exploitive behavior, is worried about consequences?
The guy who let his meritless son-in-law/ Saudi intelligence asset access the President's daily brief?
That guy?
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:47 PM on August 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
The guy who's never suffered consequences for criminal and exploitive behavior, is worried about consequences?
The guy who let his meritless son-in-law/ Saudi intelligence asset access the President's daily brief?
That guy?
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:47 PM on August 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
rebecca_fachner: By 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court has ruled the theft of nuclear documents acceptable because it isn't deeply rooted in our history [fake]
posted by Rumple at 1:47 PM on August 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 1:47 PM on August 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
It's Raining Shoes.
Does anybody else remember that episode of Jon Oliver’s show where he held up a small box of raisins and explained that these were Hillary Clinton’s horrible scandals, and then allowed piles of raisins to rain down upon him as he said that these were the Trump scandals ahead? I think about that sometimes.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:47 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Does anybody else remember that episode of Jon Oliver’s show where he held up a small box of raisins and explained that these were Hillary Clinton’s horrible scandals, and then allowed piles of raisins to rain down upon him as he said that these were the Trump scandals ahead? I think about that sometimes.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:47 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Adam Davidson:
There seems to be a debate on this site about whether Trump was, explicitly, going to sell the secrets; use them to show off; or just hold on to them for some other reason.posted by Going To Maine at 1:56 PM on August 12, 2022 [30 favorites]
I spent years talking to lots of Trump’s staff and business partners.
I feel confident that Trump saw some immediate benefit in these secrets.
That could be selling them for money. But it also could mean something smaller: he liked being able to show off that he had them to gain momentary favor in someone’s eyes.
I would say it is very unlikely that he didn’t have some immediate benefit in mind.
Trump has no history of thinking long-term, patiently holding on to potentially valuable things for reasons that can’t immediately be turned into some benefit.
In short: it is highly likely he used them in some way.
Now, he is a very very bad evaluator of value.
I have long said that it’s not the corruption that is shocking. It’s the ineptitude of the corruption.
He could have made a LOT more money on the sketchy FSU projects he worked on.
But he’s impulsive and dumb and has no long-term vision. He'll take $500,000 today instead of a high likelihood of making $50M a few years from now.
So, whatever benefit he got could be something way more stupid and small than any of us can imagine.
Think Seinfeld not Bond villain.
Like Trump heard that Ike Perlmutter said something condescending about how little Trump knows and so he wanted to show that he has the most valuable secrets in the world.
This means he is very easily playable.
People like Tom Barrack would know how to prompt him to hold and share the docs.
So, this can be both some small, pathetic dumb thing and, also, the gravest national security risk of all time.
The q of whether he sold it for billions or for a quick ego boost is irrelevant.
By 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court has ruled the theft of nuclear documents acceptable because it isn't deeply rooted in our history [fake]
Nuclear weapons aren't even mentioned in the Constitution
posted by nubs at 1:57 PM on August 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
Nuclear weapons aren't even mentioned in the Constitution
posted by nubs at 1:57 PM on August 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
Overclassification is very much a thing, so a lot of stuff marked secret or even top secret is completely mundane stuff. Indeed, some of it could very well be nothing more than politically embarrassing or something stupid like a TSA policy manual*.
While I agree with the above, access to classified information is only available to the category of information one is classified to access.
For example:
However, even Top Secret clearance does not allow one to access all information at, or below, Top Secret level. Access requires the clearance necessary for the sensitivity of the information, as well as a legitimate need to obtain the information.[18] For example, all US military pilots are required to obtain at least a Secret clearance, but they may only access documents directly related to their orders.
What is mundane to one domain is absolutely needed to be secret or above when applied to other domains. One of my former bosses was in the army. When they went to work on a computer in the field, they had the authority to tell a 2-star general or lower not to enter where the computer was because of encryption/state secrets. Suffice it to say, they were well below general level.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 2:05 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
While I agree with the above, access to classified information is only available to the category of information one is classified to access.
For example:
However, even Top Secret clearance does not allow one to access all information at, or below, Top Secret level. Access requires the clearance necessary for the sensitivity of the information, as well as a legitimate need to obtain the information.[18] For example, all US military pilots are required to obtain at least a Secret clearance, but they may only access documents directly related to their orders.
What is mundane to one domain is absolutely needed to be secret or above when applied to other domains. One of my former bosses was in the army. When they went to work on a computer in the field, they had the authority to tell a 2-star general or lower not to enter where the computer was because of encryption/state secrets. Suffice it to say, they were well below general level.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 2:05 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Overclassification is very much a thing, so a lot of stuff marked secret or even top secret is completely mundane stuff. Indeed, some of it could very well be nothing more than politically embarrassing or something stupid like a TSA policy manual*.
I can tell you that as much as possible you try to get the classification "just right" because if you over classify something it becomes burdensome from a movement and handling standpoint, as well as who can access it. It's usually pretty straightforward on how to classify something. I don't think that TSA policy manual was misclassified, as much as it's a great anecdote.
posted by furtive at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
I can tell you that as much as possible you try to get the classification "just right" because if you over classify something it becomes burdensome from a movement and handling standpoint, as well as who can access it. It's usually pretty straightforward on how to classify something. I don't think that TSA policy manual was misclassified, as much as it's a great anecdote.
posted by furtive at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
The TS/SCI materials found in Trump's home are not supposed to even be viewed outside of a SCIF (Sensitive Compartmentalized Information Facility), much less removed from there.
I doubt this is stuff that falls into the category of "over-classified" that tends to be stuff marked only as "secret" or "confidential", that is enough to keep reporters, FOIA, and the others out of it, but isn't going to be difficult for government employees to access and use as needed. Once things are marked as TS/SCI then that's where you see actual secrets.
By definition in 18 CFR 3a.11 Top Secret means that an unauthorized disclosure would cause "exceptionally grave damage" to the national security of the USA.
posted by interogative mood at 2:24 PM on August 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
I doubt this is stuff that falls into the category of "over-classified" that tends to be stuff marked only as "secret" or "confidential", that is enough to keep reporters, FOIA, and the others out of it, but isn't going to be difficult for government employees to access and use as needed. Once things are marked as TS/SCI then that's where you see actual secrets.
By definition in 18 CFR 3a.11 Top Secret means that an unauthorized disclosure would cause "exceptionally grave damage" to the national security of the USA.
posted by interogative mood at 2:24 PM on August 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
Seems like the scenario of “feds use warrant to grab documents that they couldn’t get through a subpoena, just because they want them back and not because they’re going to file charges” seems really implausible.
Also, fighting to unseal the warrant, and then not pressing charges, seems like a bad move—-IMO if garland have wanted the warrant unsealed, it’s because it gives him more political cover to file charges down the line.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:39 PM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Also, fighting to unseal the warrant, and then not pressing charges, seems like a bad move—-IMO if garland have wanted the warrant unsealed, it’s because it gives him more political cover to file charges down the line.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:39 PM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
when someone's jet with a gold-plated toilet on board abruptly changes its flight plan from Florida to Murmansk.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. This all ends with Trump On The Run -- worst TV show ever.
posted by philip-random at 2:43 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've said it before, I'll say it again. This all ends with Trump On The Run -- worst TV show ever.
posted by philip-random at 2:43 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Trump has now moved to "they planted the nuclear docs."
It's a good thing he probably showed them off then. I look forward to the witnesses - Weirdo Mar A Lago regulars, foreign intelligence agents and the mole. It should be highly entertaining.
posted by srboisvert at 2:48 PM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's a good thing he probably showed them off then. I look forward to the witnesses - Weirdo Mar A Lago regulars, foreign intelligence agents and the mole. It should be highly entertaining.
posted by srboisvert at 2:48 PM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
This all ends with Trump On The Run -- worst TV show ever.
I dunno, I'd pay shocking amounts of money to see that in real life -- and I'd probably double it if you could promise it'd end in a cool showdown with, maybe a hostage on an airport runway or something, a standoff, and then an elite federal sniper saving the day.
posted by aramaic at 2:52 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I dunno, I'd pay shocking amounts of money to see that in real life -- and I'd probably double it if you could promise it'd end in a cool showdown with, maybe a hostage on an airport runway or something, a standoff, and then an elite federal sniper saving the day.
posted by aramaic at 2:52 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Or Michael Palin driving a steamroller.
posted by Epixonti at 3:00 PM on August 12, 2022 [33 favorites]
posted by Epixonti at 3:00 PM on August 12, 2022 [33 favorites]
Jabba the Trump gets the Jedi mind meld from Dark Brandon. Or is that Darth? I think I've seen this one before -- isn't Adrien Brophy in the jungle somewhere in it?
posted by y2karl at 3:02 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 3:02 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
It seems the warrant is available. Lots of boxes, binders of photos, and info re: the president of France.Maybe some top secret handshake techniques?
posted by tractorfeed at 3:02 PM on August 12, 2022
posted by tractorfeed at 3:02 PM on August 12, 2022
end in a cool showdown with, maybe a hostage on an airport runway or something, a standoff, and then an elite federal sniper saving the day.
Please, this is America, where we prize free market economies. It won't be an elite federal agent with a sniper rifle, it'll be Dog the Bounty Hunter tackling him through a golf cart.
posted by pwnguin at 3:04 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Please, this is America, where we prize free market economies. It won't be an elite federal agent with a sniper rifle, it'll be Dog the Bounty Hunter tackling him through a golf cart.
posted by pwnguin at 3:04 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
I've said it before, I'll say it again. This all ends with Trump On The Run -- worst TV show ever.
I swear I initially read this as "Turd On The Run", which a.) is a much better title for that show b.) needs to be its theme song.
Tie your hands, tie your feet, throw you to the sharks.
posted by non canadian guy at 3:07 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I swear I initially read this as "Turd On The Run", which a.) is a much better title for that show b.) needs to be its theme song.
Tie your hands, tie your feet, throw you to the sharks.
posted by non canadian guy at 3:07 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
it'll be Dog the Bounty Hunter tackling him through a golf cart.
Shut up and take my money!!
posted by banshee at 3:21 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Shut up and take my money!!
posted by banshee at 3:21 PM on August 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Trump on the run
You scream and everybody comes a-running
Take a run and hide yourself away
Trumpy on the run
Trumpy
Trumpy on the run
And hide away
posted by kirkaracha at 3:28 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
You scream and everybody comes a-running
Take a run and hide yourself away
Trumpy on the run
Trumpy
Trumpy on the run
And hide away
posted by kirkaracha at 3:28 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Remember when right wing people say what about Hillary your answer should be with a question “so are you saying that the investigation into Hilary wasn’t a serious matter”.
posted by interogative mood at 3:36 PM on August 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 3:36 PM on August 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
I dunno, I'd pay shocking amounts of money to see that in real life -- and I'd probably double it if you could promise it'd end in a cool showdown with, maybe a hostage on an airport runway or something, a standoff, and then an elite federal sniper saving the day.
More like Trump fleeing in an electric golf cart through The Villages while the news chyron blares "FBI Pursues Slow White Dotard."
posted by delfin at 4:46 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
More like Trump fleeing in an electric golf cart through The Villages while the news chyron blares "FBI Pursues Slow White Dotard."
posted by delfin at 4:46 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
you could promise it'd end in a cool showdown with, maybe a hostage on an airport runway or something, a standoff, and then an elite federal sniper saving the day
IMPOTUS: "Diplomatic immunity."
posted by kirkaracha at 4:58 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
IMPOTUS: "Diplomatic immunity."
posted by kirkaracha at 4:58 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Trump has now moved to "they planted the nuclear docs."
And from there to "I declassified everything."
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:17 PM on August 12, 2022
And from there to "I declassified everything."
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:17 PM on August 12, 2022
Giuliani will attempt to prove simultaneously that Trump never had any of the documents, that all of the documents were already legally tainted and damaged beyond repair when he received them, and that when he returned them voluntarily, every document was in perfect condition.
posted by delfin at 5:38 PM on August 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by delfin at 5:38 PM on August 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
my takeaway from that NYT article [archive.org] is basically nothing matters
posted by glonous keming at 5:46 PM on August 12, 2022
posted by glonous keming at 5:46 PM on August 12, 2022
In the "Is it too late to hire Orly Taitz instead" department:
Trump’s attorney says she has advised him that if he just says he won’t run for president, all these investigations and charges will go away and be dropped. (Twitter)
posted by delfin at 6:04 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Trump’s attorney says she has advised him that if he just says he won’t run for president, all these investigations and charges will go away and be dropped. (Twitter)
posted by delfin at 6:04 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Trump has now moved to "they planted the nuclear docs."
And from there to "I declassified everything."
Please please please let either of these be his defense if this ever comes to trial.
posted by hydrophonic at 7:08 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
And from there to "I declassified everything."
Please please please let either of these be his defense if this ever comes to trial.
posted by hydrophonic at 7:08 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Trump’s attorney says she has advised him that if he just says he won’t run for president, all these investigations and charges will go away and be dropped
Huh. Is there some kind of legally binding way you can guarantee you're not going to run for president? Or is it just that has to say it, and it doesn't matter if it's true?
posted by aubilenon at 7:17 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Huh. Is there some kind of legally binding way you can guarantee you're not going to run for president? Or is it just that has to say it, and it doesn't matter if it's true?
posted by aubilenon at 7:17 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Huh. Is there some kind of legally binding way you can guarantee you're not going to run for president? Or is it just that has to say it, and it doesn't matter if it's true?I think "if he just says he won’t run for president, all these investigations and charges will go away and be dropped" is just another way of saying "iTs A PoLiTiCaL pRoSeCuTiOn" to the marks.
I doubt even a Trump attorney negotiates with her opposite number via youtube videos.
posted by Sauce Trough at 7:26 PM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
if he just says he won’t run for president
It's a soundbite/ talking point for the base.
What's this "Real America's Voice" bs "media" outlet? Googling for it, it feels super duper SEO-ed and the wikipedia entry for it has two disclaimers - "Not to be confused with NET or National Educational Telievision" and "Not to be confused with the current day television network with a similar format, Real America's Voice..."
And the wiki entry is titled "National Empowerment Television"
So which one of these did that clip come from?
posted by porpoise at 7:38 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's a soundbite/ talking point for the base.
What's this "Real America's Voice" bs "media" outlet? Googling for it, it feels super duper SEO-ed and the wikipedia entry for it has two disclaimers - "Not to be confused with NET or National Educational Telievision" and "Not to be confused with the current day television network with a similar format, Real America's Voice..."
And the wiki entry is titled "National Empowerment Television"
So which one of these did that clip come from?
posted by porpoise at 7:38 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
DJT: I declassified everything.
DOJ Prosecutor: Prove it. Where’s the declassification paperwork for these items with your signature?
DJT: I plead the Fifth. Besides, that paperwork is classified Super Top Secret: DJT EYES ONLY.
posted by cenoxo at 7:40 PM on August 12, 2022
DOJ Prosecutor: Prove it. Where’s the declassification paperwork for these items with your signature?
DJT: I plead the Fifth. Besides, that paperwork is classified Super Top Secret: DJT EYES ONLY.
posted by cenoxo at 7:40 PM on August 12, 2022
Trump’s attorney says she has advised him that if he just says he won’t run for president, all these investigations and charges will go away and be dropped
Good work if you can find it, representing both the defense and the prosecution. Double your billables!
posted by srboisvert at 7:45 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Good work if you can find it, representing both the defense and the prosecution. Double your billables!
posted by srboisvert at 7:45 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Legitimate question. If "I verbally declared it declassified, nobody was around to notice" is accepted by a judge does that mean that all copies of the same information are declassified? You classify information, not physical documents, right? Can Biden say that he blanket re-classified it under the same standard?
posted by a robot made out of meat at 8:08 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by a robot made out of meat at 8:08 PM on August 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Two especially interesting items from the latest Letters from an American (by historian Heather Cox Richardson):
And germaine to the latest discussion in this thread:
before the judge unsealed the documents, it appears Trump leaked them to Breitbart, which published them without blacking out the names of the agents who executed the search warrant, evidently intended to menace them.(When the DOJ filed the request to unseal the warrant documents, they helpfully provided the course with a copy of those documents with the agents' names redacted. I am appalled that anyone would publish the agents' names.)
And germaine to the latest discussion in this thread:
Now he and his allies are saying that he declassified all the documents he took out of the Oval Office, so the recovered documents were no longer classified. The fact they were not marked declassified, as required, was simply because White House counsel didn’t get the paperwork done.posted by kristi at 8:51 PM on August 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
But there is a process for declassification; a president can’t just say something is declassified. Further, as legal analyst and former FBI special agent Asha Rangappa clarified, a president cannot unilaterally declassify nuclear secrets.
Legal analyst Joyce White Vance said, “Even if this is true & it holds up (I’ve got significant doubts) what does it say that Trump declassified materials that put our national security in grave danger? And that the Republican Party continues to support him?”
During the FBI search at Mar-a-Lago, did they examine any on-premises copiers, laptops, pcs, LAN drives, phones, offsite data storage, email servers, etc. for digital copies of classified documents and files?
posted by cenoxo at 9:02 PM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by cenoxo at 9:02 PM on August 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
What’s in the Unsealed Mar-a-Lago Search Warrant? Lawfare; Scott R. Anderson, Matt Gluck, Hyemin Han, Quinta Jurecic, Tyler McBrien, Natalie K. Orpett, Katherine Pompilio, David Priess, Tia Sewell, Benjamin Wittes; Friday, August 12, 2022:
posted by cenoxo at 9:20 PM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
On Friday afternoon, Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhardt of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida unsealed the search warrant the FBI executed at Mar-a-Lago on Monday, along with the inventory of seized materials. The action follows yesterday’s speech by Attorney General Merrick Garland, in which he declared that the Justice Department would move the court to release the material—and the decision by former President Donald Trump not to object to the release.Analysis follows in the article.
posted by cenoxo at 9:20 PM on August 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
Not knowing something is classified is a defense here; but the I didn't know defense only works as long as you didn't know. I thought I declassified it, is one way he could have defended himself at the start of all this, but now it is probably too late. I'm certain the communications sent from the National Archives were very specific about the need to hand over anything marked as classified. I'm sure their lawyers were very careful to note the penalties as part of their communications so that there wouldn't be any misunderstandings like this and if there were Trump would not be able to claim ignorance as a defense.
posted by interogative mood at 9:40 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 9:40 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
During the FBI search at Mar-a-Lago, did they examine any on-premises copiers, laptops, pcs, LAN drives, phones, offsite data storage, email servers, etc. for digital copies of classified documents and files?
I don't think so. The itemized list of things taken does not include any electronic devices. The warrant also seems to be restricted to specific locations and searching for physical documents and boxes. This search seems related to a witness saying they saw boxes of government records and classified documents at Mar a Largo and that was used to get probable cause for the warrant.
posted by interogative mood at 9:53 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't think so. The itemized list of things taken does not include any electronic devices. The warrant also seems to be restricted to specific locations and searching for physical documents and boxes. This search seems related to a witness saying they saw boxes of government records and classified documents at Mar a Largo and that was used to get probable cause for the warrant.
posted by interogative mood at 9:53 PM on August 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
My first thought when the whole "Trump took boxes of documents home with him" was, oh, those are definitely his letters from Kim Jong Un, right? But instead maybe it's some other souvenir relating to the North Korean nuke program.
I guess they were definitely in there:
I guess they were definitely in there:
It is not clear why Mr. Trump apparently chose to hang onto materials that would ignite another legal firestorm around him. But last year, he told close associates that he regarded some presidential documents as his own personal property. When speaking about his friendly correspondence with the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un, Mr. Trump said, “They’re mine,” according to a person familiar with the exchange.posted by BungaDunga at 9:53 PM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Donnie shitstain is going to emote all over the place all weekend long, bet on that. The bonkers is gonna bonk. I wonder if he has any public events in the next few weeks? If so and if those start getting cancelled, it will have been a nixonion moment. Flight could become an option.
posted by vrakatar at 10:14 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by vrakatar at 10:14 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Started / Going
2015: Wants to grow his brand.
2022: Growing fear of being branded.
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 10:25 PM on August 12, 2022
2015: Wants to grow his brand.
2022: Growing fear of being branded.
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 10:25 PM on August 12, 2022
8 U.S.C. § 793 predates and is independent of classification. It doesn't matter if it was declassified if it is covered by 793 (and the warrant indicates that it is), and it especially doesn't matter if Trump declassified these documents in his head.
Also, an exception to the Presidential power to declassify is anything relating to nuclear power and weapons. Trump alone couldn't have done so with classified documents of that kind. We don't have any confirmation of the nuclear report, but if it's true then none of these exculpatory arguments could possibly apply. Not to mention how damaging it would be in the court of public opinion.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:40 PM on August 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
Also, an exception to the Presidential power to declassify is anything relating to nuclear power and weapons. Trump alone couldn't have done so with classified documents of that kind. We don't have any confirmation of the nuclear report, but if it's true then none of these exculpatory arguments could possibly apply. Not to mention how damaging it would be in the court of public opinion.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:40 PM on August 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
The moving of the goal and alternative pleadings in just 36 hours is hilarious/atrocious ....
There are no documents.
Ok, there are documents but they were planted.
Ok, the documents are there and were not planted but I declassified them.
posted by riverlife at 11:30 PM on August 12, 2022 [16 favorites]
There are no documents.
Ok, there are documents but they were planted.
Ok, the documents are there and were not planted but I declassified them.
posted by riverlife at 11:30 PM on August 12, 2022 [16 favorites]
Reality Winner went to jail for... how many documents?
posted by From Bklyn at 11:40 PM on August 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 11:40 PM on August 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
National Review:
https://mobile.twitter.com/GenMhayden/status/1557899501926596609
Gen Michael Hayden @GenMhayden
Sounds about right.
> Michael Beschloss@BeschlossDC · Aug 11
> Rosenbergs were convicted for giving U.S. nuclear secrets to Moscow, and were executed June 1953:
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:17 AM on August 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Former CIA Director Michael Hayden seemed to endorse the execution of former president Donald Trump on Thursday after a report indicated FBI agents were searching the former president’s residence for classified documents related to nuclear weapons.
https://mobile.twitter.com/GenMhayden/status/1557899501926596609
Gen Michael Hayden @GenMhayden
Sounds about right.
> Michael Beschloss@BeschlossDC · Aug 11
> Rosenbergs were convicted for giving U.S. nuclear secrets to Moscow, and were executed June 1953:
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:17 AM on August 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Former CIA Director Michael Hayden seemed to endorse the execution of former president Donald Trump on Thursday after a report indicated FBI agents were searching the former president’s residence for classified documents related to nuclear weapons.
Well, I'm against the death penalty in general and also in this specific case. But he should definitely be locked up forever, if he has removed security-related documents from the White House.
We don't know what it is about yet, but this puts Russia's invasion of Ukraine in a whole new perspective. Till now, I've been relatively chill about Putin's nuclear threats, because I felt certain that NATO and the US were way ahead of Russia, intelligence-wise.
I'm still optimistic that the DoD have known this for two years and done whatever was needed, but shit, this is really bad.
Some are speculating that he was/is selling information to Saudi Arabia rather than Russia, building on Kushner's plan to provide the kingdom with nuclear technology (but ¿Por qué no los dos?) That is hardly better. Except that it might get Kushner locked up forever as well, which I suppose is a net positive.
posted by mumimor at 1:37 AM on August 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Well, I'm against the death penalty in general and also in this specific case. But he should definitely be locked up forever, if he has removed security-related documents from the White House.
We don't know what it is about yet, but this puts Russia's invasion of Ukraine in a whole new perspective. Till now, I've been relatively chill about Putin's nuclear threats, because I felt certain that NATO and the US were way ahead of Russia, intelligence-wise.
I'm still optimistic that the DoD have known this for two years and done whatever was needed, but shit, this is really bad.
Some are speculating that he was/is selling information to Saudi Arabia rather than Russia, building on Kushner's plan to provide the kingdom with nuclear technology (but ¿Por qué no los dos?) That is hardly better. Except that it might get Kushner locked up forever as well, which I suppose is a net positive.
posted by mumimor at 1:37 AM on August 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
BTW, no one seems to be commenting on the two files on President Macron, which is fair enough, given the seriousness of the other stuff. But information on Macron is definitely something the Russians could use in their effort to help Marine le Pen. And if le Pen had won the presidential election, we would all be in a completely different place today.
posted by mumimor at 1:52 AM on August 13, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 1:52 AM on August 13, 2022 [26 favorites]
Regarding the Macron angle: I'm kind of ashamed of myself for this being one of my first thoughts on the matter, and I admit I'm not entirely convinced of my theory, but it would be so true to character for him to have stolen top secret documents because there was a flattering and/or sexy picture of Macron's wife in there.
(context in case anyone's unfamiliar with it)
posted by Flunkie at 2:14 AM on August 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
(context in case anyone's unfamiliar with it)
posted by Flunkie at 2:14 AM on August 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
Here are the first lines of the article:
President Trump's remarks upon meeting the wife of the leader of France last week — “You're in such good shape … beautiful!” — inspired many people around the world to many different thoughts.posted by mumimor at 5:04 AM on August 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Some thought it was creepy. Some thought it “hurts America.” Reebok thought you should only ever vocalize such an observation to a childhood toy, rediscovered in perfect condition in your parents' basement. Certainly not to a woman, much less the spouse of an important ally.
How did those documents end up in Florida anyway? Alexandra Petri has some theories:
Opinion: If Trump has nuclear documents at home, I’m sure it’s for good reason
Trump was busy flushing a big pile of documents and did not notice that he had gotten some classified materials stuck to his shoe. Unfortunately, the material was too classified to even be described, so nobody could tell him it was there, and he dragged it to Florida without even realizing he was doing it.
posted by hydrophonic at 5:30 AM on August 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
Opinion: If Trump has nuclear documents at home, I’m sure it’s for good reason
Trump was busy flushing a big pile of documents and did not notice that he had gotten some classified materials stuck to his shoe. Unfortunately, the material was too classified to even be described, so nobody could tell him it was there, and he dragged it to Florida without even realizing he was doing it.
posted by hydrophonic at 5:30 AM on August 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
simply because White House counsel didn’t get the paperwork done.
I'm sure counsel will be eager to testify under oath as to how they ran out of time to file that paperwork.
posted by Mitheral at 5:45 AM on August 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm sure counsel will be eager to testify under oath as to how they ran out of time to file that paperwork.
posted by Mitheral at 5:45 AM on August 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Here's your morning ratfucker update:
CNN: FBI investigating 'unprecedented' number of threats against bureau in wake of Mar-a-Lago search
Calling it "leaked" is really a disservice since the only possible place it came from was the Trump camp itself. So while we were all backpatting over Garland's checkmate move on the warrant, Trump flipped the board and started throwing game pieces.
I'm really really hoping that the DOJ has some easy way to prove this transfer of the document and the moment an FBI agent is threatened or (god forbid) attacked it just piles another obstruction or tampering charge on whatever case is being assembled.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:40 AM on August 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
CNN: FBI investigating 'unprecedented' number of threats against bureau in wake of Mar-a-Lago search
On Friday, the names of the two agents who signed the search warrant paperwork circulated online. The names had been included in a version of the search warrant that was leaked prior to the official unsealing of the documents. The version released by the court redacted the agents' names.So the unredacted copy of the warrant got to Breitbart yesterday, who published it online. And now the threats against the individual agents from the MAL search are starting.
Calling it "leaked" is really a disservice since the only possible place it came from was the Trump camp itself. So while we were all backpatting over Garland's checkmate move on the warrant, Trump flipped the board and started throwing game pieces.
I'm really really hoping that the DOJ has some easy way to prove this transfer of the document and the moment an FBI agent is threatened or (god forbid) attacked it just piles another obstruction or tampering charge on whatever case is being assembled.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:40 AM on August 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
I don't think they've got enough popular support to really get a civil war going over Trump being prosecuted.
For “civil war” read low-level terrorist insurgency at worst, and an uptick in mass shootings by radicalised “lone wolves” in various levels of competence and/or deludedness as more likely. Which will suck for those in the firing line (mostly federal employees, members of minorities, and any organisation the mythology paints as part of the conspiracy), though is a long way from an actual civil war.
posted by acb at 7:07 AM on August 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
For “civil war” read low-level terrorist insurgency at worst, and an uptick in mass shootings by radicalised “lone wolves” in various levels of competence and/or deludedness as more likely. Which will suck for those in the firing line (mostly federal employees, members of minorities, and any organisation the mythology paints as part of the conspiracy), though is a long way from an actual civil war.
posted by acb at 7:07 AM on August 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
They kind of discourage it by calling every act of violence a false flag post facto. Imagine martyring yourself by walking the walk instead of talking the talk and the MAGA chuds don't even idolize you for it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:43 AM on August 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:43 AM on August 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
They kind of discourage it by calling every act of violence a false flag post facto. Imagine martyring yourself by walking the walk instead of talking the talk and the MAGA chuds don't even idolize you for it.
I disagree entirely. Every one of these events gets talked about with the air of "Look at that guy doing that crime we all wish we could do, tut tut tut, what a shame, he was working alone, certainly not with our encouragement or support for that awesome crime he committed". Ignore their meaningless mouth noises. Watch how they react. Watch what they do.
posted by notoriety public at 8:10 AM on August 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
I disagree entirely. Every one of these events gets talked about with the air of "Look at that guy doing that crime we all wish we could do, tut tut tut, what a shame, he was working alone, certainly not with our encouragement or support for that awesome crime he committed". Ignore their meaningless mouth noises. Watch how they react. Watch what they do.
posted by notoriety public at 8:10 AM on August 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
emptywheel: OBSTRUCTION: THE TWO-RECEIPT SEARCH OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT’S GOLF RESORT
By description, when Trump tried to destroy evidence, he did so immediately, in the heat of the moment, in the White House. For that reason, and because the known federal investigations — his attempted coup on January 6, but also his ties to Russia, his coercion of Ukraine, even his inauguration graft — were all predicated in DC, the investigation into Trump’s obstruction of those investigations would be in DC too. That’s why I hypothesize that FBI may have inventoried everything and then, when compiling a final inventory to share with Trump, they distinguished between the suspected crimes that would have been committed in Florida, by storing classified information improperly and refusing to return it to the Federal government, and the suspected crimes that would have been committed in DC when — on January 20 or before, including between January 6 and January 20 — Trump ripped up, flushed, burned, or tried to eat incriminating evidence.posted by kingless at 9:09 AM on August 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Unless Trump were to waive venue (which he would never do), any prosecution of Trump under the Espionage Act would happen in SDFL, because that’s where he illegally retained classified information after the government asked him to give it back. But any prosecution of Trump for obstruction would happen where the investigations he obstructed were and where he ripped up evidence, in DC.
About the Macron file: it's probably newspaper clippings of his ultra-virile chest hair adorned with circles drawn with Trump's preferred Sharpie, and a list of addresses to get implants (but with blonde hair).
posted by elgilito at 9:20 AM on August 13, 2022
posted by elgilito at 9:20 AM on August 13, 2022
Trump Lawyer Told Justice Dept. That Classified Material Had Been Returned
The lawyer signed a statement in June that all documents marked as classified and held in boxes in storage at Mar-a-Lago had been given back. The search at the former president’s home on Monday turned up more.posted by BungaDunga at 10:16 AM on August 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
I know lying to the fbi is a crime. Does that extend to the whole Justice department?
posted by Mitheral at 10:36 AM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 10:36 AM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Fox News airs edited photo of Trump raid judge with Ghislaine Maxwell. Keepin' it classy.
posted by LindsayIrene at 12:17 PM on August 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 12:17 PM on August 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Strange then that Hannity is upset about this.
posted by Rumple at 1:05 PM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Rumple at 1:05 PM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Not so strange - the central tenet of conservatism is "its only ok when I do it. "
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:13 PM on August 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:13 PM on August 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
• Trump's latest defense for Mar-a-Lago documents is everyone 'brings home their work from time to time' and the files were automatically declassified, Alia Shoaib, Insider, August 13, 2022.
• Intelligence Committee Rep. [Jim Himes (D)] rubbishes Trump's claim of a 'standing order' to declassify documents as 'utter baloney', Alia Shoaib, Insider, August 13, 2022.
• Trump says "it was all declassified" — how declassification usually works; Olivia Gazis & Ellen Uchimiya, CBS News, August 12, 2022.
Yet another clear example of how the delusional Donald believes he could do anything he wanted — policies, procedures, laws, and advisors be damned — as the former President. Sow the wind, may he reap the whirlwind.
posted by cenoxo at 1:16 PM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
• Intelligence Committee Rep. [Jim Himes (D)] rubbishes Trump's claim of a 'standing order' to declassify documents as 'utter baloney', Alia Shoaib, Insider, August 13, 2022.
• Trump says "it was all declassified" — how declassification usually works; Olivia Gazis & Ellen Uchimiya, CBS News, August 12, 2022.
Yet another clear example of how the delusional Donald believes he could do anything he wanted — policies, procedures, laws, and advisors be damned — as the former President. Sow the wind, may he reap the whirlwind.
posted by cenoxo at 1:16 PM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
believes he could do anything he wanted
Indeed.
"[W]hen you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything."
posted by riverlife at 1:29 PM on August 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Indeed.
"[W]hen you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything."
posted by riverlife at 1:29 PM on August 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I guarantee the defense (or at least 1 of many) will be that he made a "mistake" and thought that everything was declassified and OK to keep. They're going to push his extreme incompetence over his extreme corruption.
"He didn’t care. He didn’t care about the boxes. He was in a dark place at the time, if you remember. He didn’t even unpack things"
posted by mrgrimm at 1:50 PM on August 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
"He didn’t care. He didn’t care about the boxes. He was in a dark place at the time, if you remember. He didn’t even unpack things"
posted by mrgrimm at 1:50 PM on August 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hard to claim an innocent mistake continued months after you failed to comply with official letters outlining exactly what you needed to hand over and then failed to produce it when subpoenaed.
The latest claims of some standing order that would declassify stuff automatically but just for Trump is just ridiculous.
posted by interogative mood at 2:15 PM on August 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
The latest claims of some standing order that would declassify stuff automatically but just for Trump is just ridiculous.
posted by interogative mood at 2:15 PM on August 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
They're going to push his extreme incompetence over his extreme corruption.
And that will be BS, because some of these are papers he shouldn't have in his private space the first place.
I do believe Trump is the most stupid of American presidents, but I do not believe is so stupid that he has no agency. The Trump family is a crime family, and he has a lot of habits that come from continuous criming.
posted by mumimor at 2:19 PM on August 13, 2022 [20 favorites]
And that will be BS, because some of these are papers he shouldn't have in his private space the first place.
I do believe Trump is the most stupid of American presidents, but I do not believe is so stupid that he has no agency. The Trump family is a crime family, and he has a lot of habits that come from continuous criming.
posted by mumimor at 2:19 PM on August 13, 2022 [20 favorites]
the delusional Donald believes he could do anything he wanted
I agree with that in one sense, the sense that he believes he can get away with anything he wants if he bullshits after the fact enough. I do not believe for one second that he thought it was ok to do, that's just his avoiding consequences smoke screen. His fans like to believe that he's playing some strategy game, but the simpler explanation is he has the mind of a 12-year-old and is trying any excuse that might work, one after the other.
His history shows it works more than it doesn't.
posted by ctmf at 2:40 PM on August 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
I agree with that in one sense, the sense that he believes he can get away with anything he wants if he bullshits after the fact enough. I do not believe for one second that he thought it was ok to do, that's just his avoiding consequences smoke screen. His fans like to believe that he's playing some strategy game, but the simpler explanation is he has the mind of a 12-year-old and is trying any excuse that might work, one after the other.
His history shows it works more than it doesn't.
posted by ctmf at 2:40 PM on August 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
I see two things starting to take clearer shape: it's not just what he took, it's what he did with what he took; and that's why this key informant started informing now.
posted by LooseFilter at 2:58 PM on August 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by LooseFilter at 2:58 PM on August 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
I wonder if any of this can reopen the SF86 fuckery that went on as his underlings tried to get security clearances (looking at you, Jared).
posted by ryanrs at 3:12 PM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ryanrs at 3:12 PM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing someone got caught while criming, and were presented with the choice between being locked up forever or a milder sentence if they testify against Trump. And in real life, there is a limit to how loyal Trump's people are, even his children.
In a way, the weird prominence of the pardon of Roger Stone in the inventory is an example of this.
posted by mumimor at 3:23 PM on August 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
In a way, the weird prominence of the pardon of Roger Stone in the inventory is an example of this.
posted by mumimor at 3:23 PM on August 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I do not believe for one second that he thought it was ok to do
I don't believe for one second that he thought about anything.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:36 PM on August 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
I don't believe for one second that he thought about anything.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:36 PM on August 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
Newsweek:
In pursuing the unprecedented search of Donald Trump's residence on Monday, the FBI was seeking to retrieve Top Secret and "compartmented" documents dealing with intelligence "sources and methods," two federal government sources tell Newsweek—documents with the potential to reveal U.S. intelligence sources, including human sources on the American government payroll.posted by sebastienbailard at 4:11 PM on August 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
...
In the aftermath of the search, the Trump camp insists that President Trump had the right to declassify information, and thus none of the records were classified. Kash Patel, a Trump loyalist who served in intelligence and defense positions in the administration (and who also identifies himself as one of Donald Trump's representatives to the National Archives), told the Just The News podcast that Trump was the "ultimate arbiter" of the classification of a document and thus there could be no wrongdoing.
That characterization is incorrect, experts say, because documents that are covered by statute, and not classified under presidential executive order, cannot be classified or declassified by the president. That includes nuclear secrets (under the Atomic Energy Act) and documents that might identify CIA case officers or agents (under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982). The Washington Post has reported that the documents sought at Mar-a-Lago related to nuclear weapons.
Obama didn’t keep millions of classified White House documents
On a purely aesthetic note, the fact that documents were kept in the basement by the head of the Leopards Ate My Face party is just lazy fan service on the part of the writers. Beware of the Leopard indeed.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:28 PM on August 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
On a purely aesthetic note, the fact that documents were kept in the basement by the head of the Leopards Ate My Face party is just lazy fan service on the part of the writers. Beware of the Leopard indeed.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:28 PM on August 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
It does feel a bit like over the past week or two a new writers team has been brought in. Maybe the ratings were flagging and new plot lines need to be introduced. I'm actually on board with the way the season has shifted, and look forward to seeing how all these threads develop.
posted by hippybear at 4:37 PM on August 13, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:37 PM on August 13, 2022 [22 favorites]
I agree with that in one sense, the sense that he believes he can get away with anything he wants if he bullshits after the fact enough. I do not believe for one second that he thought it was ok to doI suspect that in his mind, the distinction between "I can get away with it" and "It's OK to do" is at best a lot hazier than it is in the mind of the typical person.
posted by Flunkie at 4:39 PM on August 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
He seems to operate within the parameter of "if I can get away with it, it's okay", and that's been reinforced his entire life up until just recently. He's been lying on his financial reporting, he's been lying about his real estate deals, he's been lying about nearly everything and he always gets away with it. His whole "I declassified it" is such a total NYC Mobster kind of thing to say...
I don't know where all this is going, but I do hope it goes somewhere particularly bad for him.
posted by hippybear at 4:42 PM on August 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
I don't know where all this is going, but I do hope it goes somewhere particularly bad for him.
posted by hippybear at 4:42 PM on August 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted. Can't even tell if it's supposed to be a joke or not ... but if not, you definitely need to provide a source for "Russian TV thanks Trump for nuclear secrets."
posted by taz (staff) at 11:31 PM on August 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:31 PM on August 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
taz: I think people might be talking about this story. The headline is not accurate, the story has a more sedate quote from Russia-1, "Obviously, if there were any important documents, they've been studying them in Moscow for a while." Anyway, there's a kernel of stuff here.
posted by CCBC at 2:32 AM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by CCBC at 2:32 AM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Daily Kos (*) also mentions the “@JuliaDavisNews” tweet containing the same tongue-in-cheek “Russian Media Monitor” video clip.
*Love DK’s “IQ45” label for the Donald.
posted by cenoxo at 3:34 AM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
*Love DK’s “IQ45” label for the Donald.
posted by cenoxo at 3:34 AM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Concealing Classified Documents is the Strongest Case Against Trump Yet (Renato Mariotti, Politico)
posted by box at 4:50 AM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 4:50 AM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
CNN: Armed Trump supporters outside Phoenix FBI office (video)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:04 AM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:04 AM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Despite the headline, the Politico article takes a disappointing turn, "I would not be surprised if DOJ refuses to pursue charges, regardless of their strength, in the absence of a “plus factor” like obstruction."
I suspect if the contents of the documents are not sufficiently volatile, the government could say "All we wanted was to get the documents back" and leave it at that. Although it's also possible those documents could figure in other potential charges, later.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:18 AM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I suspect if the contents of the documents are not sufficiently volatile, the government could say "All we wanted was to get the documents back" and leave it at that. Although it's also possible those documents could figure in other potential charges, later.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:18 AM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
If heavily-armed idiots have to go protesting somewhere, FBI headquarters is exactly where I want them to do it. Can you imagine anywhere that's less intimidated by a bunch of loons with automatic weapons?
posted by MrVisible at 6:22 AM on August 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 6:22 AM on August 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
Responding to FBI search, Trump and allies return to his familiar strategy: flood the zone with nonsense, Daniel Dale, CNN, Sun August 14, 2022:
How do we know they’re nonsense? The Donald’s lips are moving.
posted by cenoxo at 6:47 AM on August 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
In response to the FBI search of former President Donald Trump's home in Florida on Monday, Trump and his allies in Congress and right-wing media have returned to his preferred strategy for communicating in a crisis: say a whole bunch of nonsense in rapid succession.Baseless conspiracy theories about the search follow in the article.
From his battles against impeachment to his effort to limit the political fallout from the Covid-19 pandemic, Trump has attempted to flood the zone with such a quantity and variety of lies, conspiracy theories and distractions that Americans will tune out, turn away or cease to know what is true and not. And he has regularly been joined by a large cast of eager defenders….
How do we know they’re nonsense? The Donald’s lips are moving.
posted by cenoxo at 6:47 AM on August 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
emptywheel: 18 USC 793E IN THE TIME OF SHADOW BROKERS AND DONALD TRUMP
Under Attorneys General Jeff Sessions and Bill Barr, DOJ put renewed focus on prosecuting people who simply bring home large caches of sensitive documents. They did so in the wake of a costly lesson showing that the compromise of insecurely stored files can do as much damage as a high level recruited spy.posted by kingless at 7:27 AM on August 14, 2022 [16 favorites]
It’s a matter of equal justice that Trump be treated with the same gravity with which Martin and Pho and Albury and Hale and Marshall were treated under the Trump Administration, for doing precisely what Donald Trump is alleged to have done (albeit with far fewer and far less sensitive documents). But as the example of Shadow Brokers offers, it’s also a matter of urgent national security.
Can you imagine anywhere that's less intimidated by a bunch of loons with automatic weapons?
On the other hand, these are the types who idolize the Oklahoma City bombers. Would prefer these right-wing gun owners be tracked and locked up, before they have an opportunity to go on a shooting spree or blow things and people up.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:56 AM on August 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
On the other hand, these are the types who idolize the Oklahoma City bombers. Would prefer these right-wing gun owners be tracked and locked up, before they have an opportunity to go on a shooting spree or blow things and people up.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:56 AM on August 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
I keep on wondering about how Trump even got those documents out of the White House? I can sort of see how he just grabbed papers in the Situation Room or wherever and went out of the room with them, and the staff was too cowered to act. But packing 15 boxes and sending them to MAL is another thing. Lots of people could have stopped it and didn't. I mean, for all of Cipollone's entertaining swearing, how did he let those boxes go out? Wouldn't anyone who helped pack those boxes be aiding and abetting a crime? So many questions...
posted by mumimor at 8:19 AM on August 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 8:19 AM on August 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
One successful loon with an automatic weapon is gonna create a cascade of lions doing terrible things. I don’t know if that will technically qualify as “civil war”, but that won’t matter to the dead. Be careful, everyone. This feels very real.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:38 AM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 8:38 AM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Has the situation already escalated from leopards to lions?
posted by acb at 9:05 AM on August 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by acb at 9:05 AM on August 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Wrt the emptywheel post kingless cited above, who else may have accessed the paper documents at MAL and copied, photographed, or emailed them to (or from) unsecured computers or phones? There must be a LAN/WAN with internet access at MAL: when Trump was President I assume it was secured by the Secret Service, but what about afterwards?
Once the papers were in IQ45’s possession, you know he couldn’t help but brag about them. Perhaps he let a VIP visitor rummage around a bit, who knows?
posted by cenoxo at 9:37 AM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Once the papers were in IQ45’s possession, you know he couldn’t help but brag about them. Perhaps he let a VIP visitor rummage around a bit, who knows?
posted by cenoxo at 9:37 AM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
when Trump was President I assume it was secured by the Secret Service, but what about afterwards?
Unclear about the timing of this anecdote on Twitter (see also the quoted semi recent news article within), but guessing it was during his presidency. So, yea. If those documents got smartphone-photographed or scanned or etc, seems likely they got exfiltrated pretty rapidly.
(I'm honestly not sure who, if anyone, is in charge of Secret Service-protected individuals' computer security, but I'm worried the answer is "the same folks who would be otherwise".)
posted by cyrusdogstar at 9:46 AM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Unclear about the timing of this anecdote on Twitter (see also the quoted semi recent news article within), but guessing it was during his presidency. So, yea. If those documents got smartphone-photographed or scanned or etc, seems likely they got exfiltrated pretty rapidly.
(I'm honestly not sure who, if anyone, is in charge of Secret Service-protected individuals' computer security, but I'm worried the answer is "the same folks who would be otherwise".)
posted by cyrusdogstar at 9:46 AM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm actually on board with the way the season has shifted, and look forward to seeing how all these threads develop.
Writing and directing duties have now been given to the Coen brothers. While their history is a little uneven, the odds that we’re in good hands seem more likely.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:57 AM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Writing and directing duties have now been given to the Coen brothers. While their history is a little uneven, the odds that we’re in good hands seem more likely.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:57 AM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
But packing 15 boxes and sending them to MAL is another thing. Lots of people could have stopped it and didn't.
Likely they didn't go in one big batch and that Trump was taking secure dicuments to MAL the entire time he was president.
posted by Mitheral at 10:04 AM on August 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Likely they didn't go in one big batch and that Trump was taking secure dicuments to MAL the entire time he was president.
posted by Mitheral at 10:04 AM on August 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Can you imagine how easy it would have been to get Trump to show you the documents? Like, he shows you some stupid trinket he stole, all you have to say is "Oh, wow, that's pretty cool. I saw something just like it at the Obama Presidential Library."
He'd probably force you to read the stolen TS/SCI docs after that.
posted by ryanrs at 10:31 AM on August 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
He'd probably force you to read the stolen TS/SCI docs after that.
posted by ryanrs at 10:31 AM on August 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
This whole writers bit was getting old in 2016, can we finally drop it ?
posted by Pendragon at 10:38 AM on August 14, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 10:38 AM on August 14, 2022 [21 favorites]
I’ve got $20 on “no”.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:47 AM on August 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:47 AM on August 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Likely they didn't go in one big batch and that Trump was taking secure dicuments to MAL the entire time he was president.
We can guess that he took documents there while president because they built a SCIF for him to use while there. Which is actually pretty reasonable. Whether he ever bothered to use the SCIF is another matter...
posted by BungaDunga at 10:54 AM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
We can guess that he took documents there while president because they built a SCIF for him to use while there. Which is actually pretty reasonable. Whether he ever bothered to use the SCIF is another matter...
posted by BungaDunga at 10:54 AM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
✓ He never had any documents
✓ If there were some there, they were planted
✓ It doesn't matter, he declassified them all
✓ They were all returned
✓ Obama did it too
✓ He just was taking his work home, like we all do
Now he wants the documents back. (archive)
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:20 AM on August 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
✓ If there were some there, they were planted
✓ It doesn't matter, he declassified them all
✓ They were all returned
✓ Obama did it too
✓ He just was taking his work home, like we all do
Now he wants the documents back. (archive)
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:20 AM on August 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
The documents were required to make golf trips work trips so he really did golf less than any other president in history.
posted by Jacen at 11:31 AM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 11:31 AM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
“By copy of this TRUTH, I respectfully request that these documents be immediately returned to the location from which they were taken. Thank you!” wrote Mr Trump on Sunday.
Yep, that’s exactly how this is done 😂
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:32 AM on August 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
Yep, that’s exactly how this is done 😂
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:32 AM on August 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
We can guess that he took documents there while president because they built a SCIF for him to use while there. Which is actually pretty reasonable. Whether he ever bothered to use the SCIF is another matter...
That might be true and it seems logical, but all of the reporting indicates that (at least a good part of) these documents were deliberately taken out of the White House on January 20.
posted by mumimor at 11:45 AM on August 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
That might be true and it seems logical, but all of the reporting indicates that (at least a good part of) these documents were deliberately taken out of the White House on January 20.
posted by mumimor at 11:45 AM on August 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Somewhere in the White House there had to have been a low level, though highly vetted bureaucrat whose job was to keep track of all the secret papers. There 's no shortage of those secrets and someone has to keep track of them. Log them in. Log them out. Count the copies. See who has permission to see them, let alone leave the room with them in hand.
I doubt they'd give Ivanka a copy if she asked nicely.
The only person who could overrule that faceless bureaucrat ,and do he wanted with the papers would be Trump himself.
posted by yyz at 12:13 PM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
I doubt they'd give Ivanka a copy if she asked nicely.
The only person who could overrule that faceless bureaucrat ,and do he wanted with the papers would be Trump himself.
posted by yyz at 12:13 PM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Purely for the sake of speculative discussion, let’s imagine a VIP guest at a wealthy, exclusive seaside resort admires the host’s private document collection so much that they politely ask for a souvenir.
The host agrees and tells a staff member to make a nice color hardcopy of the document (practically identical to the original and suitable for framing). The guest gratefully accepts the copy — boldly autographed by the host — and expresses how gracious the host is.
A few years later, during the discovery phase of their espionage trial, they learn the copy (with their fingerprints) was traced back to the resort’s specific copier/printer, along with the exact time and date it was printed. A resort security camera video also shows the staff member working at the copier at that time.
More about printer steganography at Quartz – Connecting Dots, Computer printers have been quietly embedding tracking codes in documents for decades, Keith Collins, published June 10, 2017; Updated July 20, 2022:
The host agrees and tells a staff member to make a nice color hardcopy of the document (practically identical to the original and suitable for framing). The guest gratefully accepts the copy — boldly autographed by the host — and expresses how gracious the host is.
A few years later, during the discovery phase of their espionage trial, they learn the copy (with their fingerprints) was traced back to the resort’s specific copier/printer, along with the exact time and date it was printed. A resort security camera video also shows the staff member working at the copier at that time.
More about printer steganography at Quartz – Connecting Dots, Computer printers have been quietly embedding tracking codes in documents for decades, Keith Collins, published June 10, 2017; Updated July 20, 2022:
…color printers embed in printed documents coded patterns that contain the printer’s serial number, and the date and time the documents were printed. The patterns are made up of dots, less than a millimeter in diameter and a shade of yellow that, when placed on a white background, cannot be detected by the naked eye….posted by cenoxo at 12:48 PM on August 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Jeez, Trump's evolution on his excuses for the thefts is like a paraphrase of the Narcissist's Prayer:
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
Now we're at "I demand you return the things I stole to me"
posted by sotonohito at 2:45 PM on August 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
Now we're at "I demand you return the things I stole to me"
posted by sotonohito at 2:45 PM on August 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
More from emptywheel on a previous post cited upthread, emptywheel's obstruction investigation theory.
TRUMP’S TIMID (NON-LEGAL) COMPLAINTS ABOUT ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE
TRUMP’S TIMID (NON-LEGAL) COMPLAINTS ABOUT ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE
And if Trump had reason to believe that DOJ, after predicating an investigation on all the evidence Trump had tried to rip up or eat or flush evidence, had sought and seized all the attorney-client protected materials that had insulated Trump from consequences for his past actions, it might explain one of the biggest puzzles from the last week. For some reason, Trump has worked far harder to obscure that this obstruction investigation exists than that he’s under investigation for a crime with the word “Espionage” in the title. For some reason, Trump is more afraid of the obstruction investigation than the Espionage Act investigation.posted by kingless at 4:10 PM on August 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
...
So for whatever reasons, a full week has elapsed since a lawful search executed on the golf resort of the former President and the first we’re learning about legal discussions — aside from NYT’s revelation that Trump made a veiled threat against Merrick Garland on Thursday — is Trump’s complaint covering just the documents that don’t seem to implicate the Espionage Act.
Something has caused that discussion to remain sealed. And that, by itself, is remarkable.
We will see what filings Trump makes with the judge to try to protect any materials under executive privilege or attorney client privilege. It will be difficult to claim that TS/SCI materials fall under either of those protections. It also isn’t clear if Executive Privilege applies since this isn’t about the ability of the executive branch to deliberate independent of Congress. Also iirc there is some recent ruling that said the current President has final say over a privilege claim; but maybe I misheard that.
posted by interogative mood at 4:41 PM on August 14, 2022
posted by interogative mood at 4:41 PM on August 14, 2022
"I demand you return the things I stole to me"
All hail the poor Donald, now and forevermore the Chief Victim.
posted by cenoxo at 5:51 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
All hail the poor Donald, now and forevermore the Chief Victim.
posted by cenoxo at 5:51 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
aside from NYT’s revelation that Trump made a veiled threat against Merrick Garland on Thursday
Speaking of that, is that real or not? Haberman is the only one reporting it.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:19 PM on August 14, 2022
Speaking of that, is that real or not? Haberman is the only one reporting it.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:19 PM on August 14, 2022
Mrs. Frazzled is a kindergarten teacher who talks to politicians like they are kindergarteners.
posted by Rumple at 11:02 PM on August 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 11:02 PM on August 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
A commenter on the emptywheel post that kingless just posted asked: Why would Trump hang onto anything that could hurt him?, and I think that is a pertinent question. Trump is the guy who tries to flush out documents in the toilet. The asker suggests material that could be used for leverage or to generate cash, and if lawyers are included somehow, I'm thinking some sort of deals or contracts.
From the relatively innocent* NDAs he forced people to sign, which were of course not legal and could perhaps be used in an obstruction case, to bigger stuff, like selling secrets to Russia or KSA.
*I know, but we are living in insane times
posted by mumimor at 11:48 PM on August 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
From the relatively innocent* NDAs he forced people to sign, which were of course not legal and could perhaps be used in an obstruction case, to bigger stuff, like selling secrets to Russia or KSA.
*I know, but we are living in insane times
posted by mumimor at 11:48 PM on August 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Thoughts on the Mar-a-Lago Search, Jack Goldsmith [Lawfare co-founder, brief bio on landing page], Lawfare, August 14 2022:
posted by cenoxo at 4:12 AM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I have long worried (here [book, Amazon], and, more recently, here [NYT paywalled]) about the adverse consequences of the Biden Justice Department using criminal process against former President Donald Trump. I have also long worried (spurred by Garrett Graff [Politico]) about the mischief, and potential criminal liability, that Trump might stir up after his presidency with access to classified information. Here are some thoughts spurred by the collision of these worries.More in the LF article: I first misread its headline as “Thoughts on the Mar-a-Lago Stench”.
…Trump supporters would have viewed any criminal legal process directed at Trump from the Biden Justice Department as, in Linker’s words, “an illegitimate act undertaken by an alien, tyrannical ‘Regime’ resembling a Third World dictatorship.” Justifiably or not, this reaction—and the further diminution in trust in the Justice Department and FBI by a large chunk of the country—was a directly foreseeable consequence of Garland’s decision.
…Trump has for all his adult life, and especially during his presidency and post-presidency, shown contempt for law. The FBI’s belief that Trump acted illegally in bringing scores of sensitive documents to Florida, or in not returning them upon request, is very far from shocking. It also appears right now—and this too would not be surprising—that Trump and his advisors did not fully cooperate with the National Archives’ and the Justice Department’s efforts to secure and retrieve this information. There obviously must be a point where information is so sensitive, and Trump’s disregard for law so extreme, to justify legal process against Trump, even in the current milieu. Otherwise the law is entirely hostage to a former president’s (and his supporters’) self-serving veto—something no legal system can tolerate.
posted by cenoxo at 4:12 AM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
It’s almost as if prosecuting white collar crime before an individual or corporation gets to the “too big to fail” stage would prevent an awful lot of dilemmas.
posted by eviemath at 4:44 AM on August 15, 2022 [35 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 4:44 AM on August 15, 2022 [35 favorites]
Eh... Does anyone actually trust the FBI? I mean, since their founding they've been a blunt instrument to suppress dissent, try to break up and destroy any sort of progressive or reform movement, and that's when they weren't being Hoover's personal goon squad.
Like hearing people talk about the dire risk of people losing trust or faith in the Supreme Court I'm forced to ask what planet the people who wring their hands in panic about the idea of people losing trust or faith in the FBI or more broadly the US system of "justice" think they're living on.
No one outside the DC cocktail circuit has trust or faith in any of those things. The right because they're insane and see conspiracies against them everywhere, the left because it's provable scientifically that they're racist, misogynist, institutions that work to keep people oppressed.
So much so that the Supreme Court literally ruled that no amount of scientific/statistical proof that the police or courts are racist counts and that only direct, personal, explicit statement of racial bias by individual police or judges can be legally considered to be evidence of racism.
So yeah, let justice be done (for once) even if the right throws a tantrum.
There's nothing to lose. The fantasy that we believe the courts/DOJ/FBI to be great trustworthy institutions is pure fantasy.
posted by sotonohito at 4:47 AM on August 15, 2022 [14 favorites]
Like hearing people talk about the dire risk of people losing trust or faith in the Supreme Court I'm forced to ask what planet the people who wring their hands in panic about the idea of people losing trust or faith in the FBI or more broadly the US system of "justice" think they're living on.
No one outside the DC cocktail circuit has trust or faith in any of those things. The right because they're insane and see conspiracies against them everywhere, the left because it's provable scientifically that they're racist, misogynist, institutions that work to keep people oppressed.
So much so that the Supreme Court literally ruled that no amount of scientific/statistical proof that the police or courts are racist counts and that only direct, personal, explicit statement of racial bias by individual police or judges can be legally considered to be evidence of racism.
So yeah, let justice be done (for once) even if the right throws a tantrum.
There's nothing to lose. The fantasy that we believe the courts/DOJ/FBI to be great trustworthy institutions is pure fantasy.
posted by sotonohito at 4:47 AM on August 15, 2022 [14 favorites]
What do you propose the alternative to be? Invite China to invade, establish a dictatorship of the proletariat and put him on trial or something? Or just go into a sort of internal exile, disengaging from politics because everything is irredeemably rotten?
posted by acb at 5:36 AM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by acb at 5:36 AM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Invite China to invade, establish a dictatorship of the proletariat and put him on trial or something?
What do we need China for? We can do that on our own.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:47 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
What do we need China for? We can do that on our own.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:47 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
…the idea of people losing trust or faith in the FBI or more broadly the US system of "justice" think they're living on.
…No one outside the DC cocktail circuit has trust or faith in any of those things. The right because they're* insane and see conspiracies against them everywhere, the left because it's provable scientifically that they're** racist, misogynist, institutions that work to keep people oppressed.
Just for mild clarification, I’m reading that as:
*”they’re” = refers to “the right”
**”they’re” = refers to “the FBI or more broadly the US system of ‘justice’”
posted by darkstar at 5:51 AM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
…No one outside the DC cocktail circuit has trust or faith in any of those things. The right because they're* insane and see conspiracies against them everywhere, the left because it's provable scientifically that they're** racist, misogynist, institutions that work to keep people oppressed.
Just for mild clarification, I’m reading that as:
*”they’re” = refers to “the right”
**”they’re” = refers to “the FBI or more broadly the US system of ‘justice’”
posted by darkstar at 5:51 AM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
What the government’s former top classified records overseer sees in the Mar-a-Lago search — Grid spoke with Bill Leonard, who oversaw the U.S. government’s classified information systems. He has questions about the search of Donald Trump’s Florida property., Steve Reilly, Grid, August 10, 2022.
posted by cenoxo at 6:35 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by cenoxo at 6:35 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
In today’s Washington Post Jennifer Rubin writes:
Former FBI special agent and lawyer Asha Rangappa dismisses Trump’s assertion that he declassified everything: “The claim is bogus because clearly the current position of the United States government is that these documents are classified. This is controlling, whatever he did before he left office.” She adds, “He has no classification authority as of Jan. 20, 2021. Trump forgets that whatever awesome powers and immunities he held as president now belong to [President] Biden.”posted by interogative mood at 7:17 AM on August 15, 2022 [13 favorites]
Indeed, this nondefense bolsters the conclusion that Trump knew the documents were classified. “It is an admission because it would mean Trump had knowledge of the content of the documents, and that he apparently planned to remove them once relabeled,” observes Ryan Goodman, national security law expert and co-editor of Just Security.
Yes. It would be nice if the so-called "liberal media" would point out how many of Trump's alleged "defenses" -- such as the suggestion that the FBI planted incriminating evidence -- are in fact confessions that incriminating evidence exists!
posted by Gelatin at 7:28 AM on August 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 7:28 AM on August 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
I noted a time back how the Trump presidency coincided with the exposure of Kim Jong-un's brother (Kim Jong-nam) as a spy against North Korea.
Kim Jong-nam had been in exile for 14 years. After his death, it was revealed to the public, that he had been a CIA asset.
Kim Jong-nam was murdered February 10, 2017, three weeks after Trump took office. The 14 years in which Kim was allowed to survive and then his sudden murder after Trump took office suggest to me a leak from the U.S. or from Trump himself. Could Trump have revealed the CIA status either through idiocy or in a desire to confer favor from Kim Jong-un?
I would like to point out that Kim-Jong-nam went to meet with his CIA handler at the time of his murder. So at the time of his death, he was a current, supposedly not previously exposed, asset.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:58 AM on August 15, 2022 [39 favorites]
Kim Jong-nam had been in exile for 14 years. After his death, it was revealed to the public, that he had been a CIA asset.
Kim Jong-nam was murdered February 10, 2017, three weeks after Trump took office. The 14 years in which Kim was allowed to survive and then his sudden murder after Trump took office suggest to me a leak from the U.S. or from Trump himself. Could Trump have revealed the CIA status either through idiocy or in a desire to confer favor from Kim Jong-un?
I would like to point out that Kim-Jong-nam went to meet with his CIA handler at the time of his murder. So at the time of his death, he was a current, supposedly not previously exposed, asset.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:58 AM on August 15, 2022 [39 favorites]
darkstar yes, sorry that was a poorly worded sentence.
acb I was thinking more along the lines of, you know, prosecuting Trump for his crimes and ignore the twerps saying that if we dared follow the law it would "erode confidence" in instituations.
And also, I know this is a little zaney, repairing the institutions that can be repaired, and eradicating and replacing the ones that can't be repaired.
Expand the Supreme Court to 51 members. Or 101. Or 201. With 20 year terms instead of lifetime appointments. There now it's a real body instead of a handful of wizards where every 4 years we get to find out if our civil rights are real or not.
Eradicate the police and replace with a handful of new agencies that take over the various jobs done (poorly) by the police.
Tear apart the entire DHS, throw away all the bullshit, and build a handful of new agencies to do the actual necessary work with a **LOT** of transparency and civilian oversight.
Stuff like that.
Painting it as "either you accept the status quo and agree that Trump shouldn't be put on trial or you want China to invade" is disingenuous at best and maliciously insulting at worst.
posted by sotonohito at 8:44 AM on August 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
acb I was thinking more along the lines of, you know, prosecuting Trump for his crimes and ignore the twerps saying that if we dared follow the law it would "erode confidence" in instituations.
And also, I know this is a little zaney, repairing the institutions that can be repaired, and eradicating and replacing the ones that can't be repaired.
Expand the Supreme Court to 51 members. Or 101. Or 201. With 20 year terms instead of lifetime appointments. There now it's a real body instead of a handful of wizards where every 4 years we get to find out if our civil rights are real or not.
Eradicate the police and replace with a handful of new agencies that take over the various jobs done (poorly) by the police.
Tear apart the entire DHS, throw away all the bullshit, and build a handful of new agencies to do the actual necessary work with a **LOT** of transparency and civilian oversight.
Stuff like that.
Painting it as "either you accept the status quo and agree that Trump shouldn't be put on trial or you want China to invade" is disingenuous at best and maliciously insulting at worst.
posted by sotonohito at 8:44 AM on August 15, 2022 [19 favorites]
Everyone should realize that the DOJ has probably been building this case for months and they've probably known before the initial subpoena what documents Trump had in his possession. The subpoena was his last real chance to have an "it was a misunderstanding defense" and the fact that they found documents in executing the warrant is proof of the crime. Everything that was marked TS/SCI has a huge paper trail of who accessed it, where and when so it only takes one document like that to figure out how the President accessed these materials and who provided them to him and under what circumstances. Once you know who was getting him the extremely secret stuff you could use the threat of prosecution to get his staff to provide more details on how he obtained and managed classified and other government records. This would let you build a nice list and have a full conspiracy and espionage case ready to go. The subpoena was an opportunity for Trump to play the "it was a misunderstanding/ignorance defense" and in his failure to comply fully and then failure to amend his response after being asked they now have the obstruction case proven when they show up with a warrant and find he's hidden stuff. This will might put Trump's existing lawyers in trouble since they could be seen as accomplices to the obstruction of justice.
posted by interogative mood at 12:40 PM on August 15, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 12:40 PM on August 15, 2022 [21 favorites]
Trump demands return of seized documents – by order of social media (The Guardian)
But obviously, one can never trust anything Trump says.
posted by mumimor at 12:54 PM on August 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
On Monday, Trump returned to the subject, claiming the FBI “stole my three passports (one expired), along with everything else”.This seems pretty serious to me, as if the FBI have cause to think he might leave the country. And don't want him to.
But obviously, one can never trust anything Trump says.
posted by mumimor at 12:54 PM on August 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
stole my three passports (one expired)
One expired, one current, and one...?
posted by saturday_morning at 12:56 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
One expired, one current, and one...?
posted by saturday_morning at 12:56 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't know that this applies to Presidents, but when I was a federal employee I had both a personal passport and an official passport used only for government travel.
posted by wintermind at 12:58 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by wintermind at 12:58 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
One expired, one current, and one...?
One diplomatic passport. I have never had such a thing myself, but family members have, and you are not allowed to use them for private travels. One family member was pretty high up, but still, strong nope to using it outside of work. I don't know if ex-presidents get to keep them, some have done diplomatic work after their presidential terms.
posted by mumimor at 1:00 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
One diplomatic passport. I have never had such a thing myself, but family members have, and you are not allowed to use them for private travels. One family member was pretty high up, but still, strong nope to using it outside of work. I don't know if ex-presidents get to keep them, some have done diplomatic work after their presidential terms.
posted by mumimor at 1:00 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Grabbing 1 expired + 2 current passports suggests the FBI wasn't collecting an old diplo passport that Trump should have given back. This feels more like they don't want him leaving the country.
posted by ryanrs at 1:14 PM on August 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 1:14 PM on August 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
The passports were probably what were in the safe. Now MSNBC had it too.
posted by mumimor at 1:19 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 1:19 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
This feels more like they don't want him leaving the country.
i have the biggest and most evil grin on my face right now
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:34 PM on August 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
i have the biggest and most evil grin on my face right now
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:34 PM on August 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Can we return his passports if he promises to leave the country?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:40 PM on August 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:40 PM on August 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
It's interesting this hasn't been linked here yet, but this is the most lucid write-up of the whole situation I've seen yet: It's Way Worse Than We'd Ever Imagined, from StatusKuo on substack.
posted by hippybear at 1:40 PM on August 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:40 PM on August 15, 2022 [8 favorites]
§ 51.4 Validity of passports.
(e) Period of validity of a diplomatic passport.
The period of validity of a diplomatic passport, unless limited by the Department to a shorter period, is five years from the date of issue, or so long as the bearer maintains his or her diplomatic status, whichever is shorter. A diplomatic passport which has not expired must be returned to the Department upon the termination of the bearer's diplomatic status
51.7 Passport property of the U.S. Government.
(a) A passport at all times remains the property of the United States and must be returned to the U.S. Government upon demand.
(b) Law enforcement authorities who take possession of a passport for use in an investigation or prosecution must return the passport to the Department on completion of the investigation and/or prosecution.
---
Nothing to steal.
It's government property, not Trumps.
Plus that diplomatic passport should have be returned He no longer has diplomatic status.
posted by yyz at 1:41 PM on August 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
(e) Period of validity of a diplomatic passport.
The period of validity of a diplomatic passport, unless limited by the Department to a shorter period, is five years from the date of issue, or so long as the bearer maintains his or her diplomatic status, whichever is shorter. A diplomatic passport which has not expired must be returned to the Department upon the termination of the bearer's diplomatic status
51.7 Passport property of the U.S. Government.
(a) A passport at all times remains the property of the United States and must be returned to the U.S. Government upon demand.
(b) Law enforcement authorities who take possession of a passport for use in an investigation or prosecution must return the passport to the Department on completion of the investigation and/or prosecution.
---
Nothing to steal.
It's government property, not Trumps.
Plus that diplomatic passport should have be returned He no longer has diplomatic status.
posted by yyz at 1:41 PM on August 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
How much does he actually need a passport? If he has a private plane and a friendly government on the other end happy to take him in (*cough* Russia *cough*) can’t he circumvent that? Or do rich people still have to show them to leave?
posted by Mchelly at 1:46 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 1:46 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hmm. On the other hand, wasn't he in NJ at the time of the search? You'd think he would have had his, uh, "normal travel" passport with him, not back in FL.
Maybe the FL cache was just his souvenir passports and "flee the country" passports?
posted by ryanrs at 1:54 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Maybe the FL cache was just his souvenir passports and "flee the country" passports?
posted by ryanrs at 1:54 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Passports are not required to fly. Especially within national borders.
posted by hippybear at 1:56 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:56 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, but if you travel a lot like an ex-president, don't you keep it with you?
posted by ryanrs at 1:59 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 1:59 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Maybe they're for alternative identities - DJT in a range of unconvincing disguises with porn star names.
"Say, aren't you Donald Trump?"
"No, I'm afraid not, My name's Jack ... um ... Thrust. But I'm a big fan of President Trump. He's a great man. And completely innocent of everything they're framing him for."
Also: Donald Trump - this is one random motherfucker, isn't he?
posted by Grangousier at 2:04 PM on August 15, 2022
"Say, aren't you Donald Trump?"
"No, I'm afraid not, My name's Jack ... um ... Thrust. But I'm a big fan of President Trump. He's a great man. And completely innocent of everything they're framing him for."
Also: Donald Trump - this is one random motherfucker, isn't he?
posted by Grangousier at 2:04 PM on August 15, 2022
My friends were wanting to chitchat while drinking about what might be in Trump's safe. My position was I couldn't think of anything worse for him than the report of nuclear secrets that had just dropped earlier that day. I still can't quite believe that even he was that stupid and brazen.
posted by Scattercat at 2:14 PM on August 15, 2022
posted by Scattercat at 2:14 PM on August 15, 2022
Maybe they're for alternative identities - DJT in a range of unconvincing disguises with porn star names.
We do know of one instance where Trump had an alias, but it was a way more mundane "John Miller". And he used it to pretend to be his own publicist.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:15 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
We do know of one instance where Trump had an alias, but it was a way more mundane "John Miller". And he used it to pretend to be his own publicist.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:15 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
The DJT pretending to be his own publicist thing is something I heard about years ago, and it continues to be such a source of fascination and glee and utter "of course he did" for me.
posted by hippybear at 2:16 PM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:16 PM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
In addition to John Miller, he also spent more than a decade moonlighting as John Barron.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:19 PM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:19 PM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Could Trump have revealed the CIA status either through idiocy or in a desire to confer favor from Kim Jong-un?You're never going to get me to bet against "Could Trump have (done something) either through idiocy or in a desire to confer favor from (someone)", but I seem to remember Trump at that time being all "Let's nuke North Korea, problem solved". The "Kim Jong-un is so great" Trump phase came later, I think.
posted by Flunkie at 2:29 PM on August 15, 2022
(also, ¿Por qué no los dos?)
posted by Flunkie at 2:47 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 2:47 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Some weird shit going down involving Kid Rock being shown things at Mar A Lago... Apparently part of a Carlson interview. Hrm.
posted by hippybear at 2:53 PM on August 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:53 PM on August 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
As mentioned above, I too would love to retire the whole writers trope, but at least in my own case I've had to bow to the ... suprarational ... nature of the whole concept, as this entire trumpasco has touched my life in multiple, unimaginably personal, weird ways. For one example, from 2012-2015, my Director at work, a parsimonious, hard-charging ruthless bull of a man looking always to both raise up his own image and sink everyone else's was one: John Barron. When TFG's nom-de-PR later came out I both could and couldn't believe it, and I was certain my JB was both flattered and felt stolen from.
I believe little things like this have popped up in so many other people's lives throughout this ordeal as to warrant the existence of cosmic writers, despite the unbearably annoying nature of the trope.
posted by riverlife at 3:03 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I believe little things like this have popped up in so many other people's lives throughout this ordeal as to warrant the existence of cosmic writers, despite the unbearably annoying nature of the trope.
posted by riverlife at 3:03 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I swear to God, if Kid Rock turns out to be the mole ...
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:26 PM on August 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:26 PM on August 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
The Kid Rock thing is from March. It seems to have been while he was president, not post-presidency, and I don't see any information saying that it was at Mar-A-Lago.
As a side note, I can't fathom simultaneously having the mental wherewithal to think "The President of the United States should not be showing me this information" yet not make the leap to "Maybe he's not the greatest president".
posted by Flunkie at 3:27 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
As a side note, I can't fathom simultaneously having the mental wherewithal to think "The President of the United States should not be showing me this information" yet not make the leap to "Maybe he's not the greatest president".
posted by Flunkie at 3:27 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
FYI, regular Americans can have two US Passports too. The most common case is that you travel to Israel and also travel to other countries in the Middle East that may reject entry for someone with a passport stamp from Israel. My dad had two for a while when he was traveling a lot for work, which at that time was with a company that provided cellular infrastructure (like, the towers and dishes), when the entire world was building out really fast.
My immediate assumption was that he had a second regular passport because he travels/has traveled in the Middle East, although I suppose a diplomatic passport is also possible.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:50 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
My immediate assumption was that he had a second regular passport because he travels/has traveled in the Middle East, although I suppose a diplomatic passport is also possible.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:50 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Can we return his passports if he promises to leave the country?
Hey. Some of us live out here.
posted by saturday_morning at 4:20 PM on August 15, 2022 [40 favorites]
Hey. Some of us live out here.
posted by saturday_morning at 4:20 PM on August 15, 2022 [40 favorites]
…one can never trust anything Trump says.
One can always trust that anything and everything Trump says is untrustworthy and self-serving, and should never be taken at face value. After a lifetime of lying to his own advantage — whether he’s face-to-face with an individual or an entire country — he can switch between types of lies without hesitation or reflection. In a warped sense, the Donald may be the only True Liar we’ll ever see.
posted by cenoxo at 4:21 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
One can always trust that anything and everything Trump says is untrustworthy and self-serving, and should never be taken at face value. After a lifetime of lying to his own advantage — whether he’s face-to-face with an individual or an entire country — he can switch between types of lies without hesitation or reflection. In a warped sense, the Donald may be the only True Liar we’ll ever see.
posted by cenoxo at 4:21 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not strictly related to the Mar-a-Lago search, but this seems like a big deal. From NBC News:
Ex-Trump Org. official Allen Weisselberg expected to plead guilty in tax caseposted by bcd at 4:41 PM on August 15, 2022 [17 favorites]
A hearing is set for 9 a.m. Thursday in the case brought by Manhattan prosecutors over a tax avoidance scheme they allege ran for 15 years.
And also, from CBS:
posted by bcd at 4:47 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
According to a DOJ official, the FBI is NOT in possession of former President Trump's passports. Trump had accused the FBI of stealing his three passports during the search of his Mar-a-Lago home.In other words, Trump lied about the passports. As expected. No clue if there was some specific reason for that lie, or just part of the general throw everything against the wall and see what sticks standard procedure.
posted by bcd at 4:47 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Trumps pleading the 5th over 400 times pretty much set up this outcome, didn't it?
posted by hippybear at 4:47 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:47 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
The passports would have been listed on the receipt, I'm sure.
posted by hippybear at 4:48 PM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:48 PM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ex-Trump Org. official Allen Weisselberg expected to plead guilty in tax case
This is an enormous deal. Michael Cohen has said time and time again that Weisselberg knows absolutely everything.
posted by mochapickle at 4:55 PM on August 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
This is an enormous deal. Michael Cohen has said time and time again that Weisselberg knows absolutely everything.
posted by mochapickle at 4:55 PM on August 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
Sounds like Weisselberg isn't going to cooperate, however, so his plea deal might not be as important as it could be. Sigh.
posted by heteronym at 5:25 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by heteronym at 5:25 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Why would they offer a plea deal without cooperation?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:34 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:34 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Might not be a plea deal, just an old-fashioned guilty plea?
Edit: NYT (open link) has more information and calls it a "plea deal".
posted by Rumple at 5:37 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Edit: NYT (open link) has more information and calls it a "plea deal".
posted by Rumple at 5:37 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sounds like Weisselberg isn't going to cooperate, however, so his plea deal might not be as important as it could be. Sigh.
posted by heteronym at 7:25 PM on August 15 [+] [!]
Why would they offer a plea deal without cooperation?
Pleading guilty will require him to go on the record for at least the charges he is pleading to which alone could be bad for Trump Org and Trump Fam.
posted by srboisvert at 5:40 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by heteronym at 7:25 PM on August 15 [+] [!]
Why would they offer a plea deal without cooperation?
Pleading guilty will require him to go on the record for at least the charges he is pleading to which alone could be bad for Trump Org and Trump Fam.
posted by srboisvert at 5:40 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Flinging financial fuckery charges at the artful Donald is like Remo Williams (Fred Ward) trying to shoot, tackle, and punch Chiun (Joel Grey) who dodges, ducks, and sidesteps every attack.
Trump will blame Michael Cohen, Allen Weisselberg, the IRS auditors, and anyone else who ever came near his books. He probably won’t blame the mob or the Russians, tho.
posted by cenoxo at 5:55 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Trump will blame Michael Cohen, Allen Weisselberg, the IRS auditors, and anyone else who ever came near his books. He probably won’t blame the mob or the Russians, tho.
posted by cenoxo at 5:55 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Wow, a Remo Williams reference! I love it. :-)
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 6:01 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 6:01 PM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
> Rumple: "NYT (open link) has more information and calls it a "plea deal"."
FWIW, the subhed on the article reads:
FWIW, the subhed on the article reads:
Allen H. Weisselberg, who was charged with participating in a tax scheme, will not cooperate with the district attorney’s investigation into Donald J. Trump.posted by mhum at 6:13 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Would be wonderful if he were cooperating, and the announced deal was to avoid letting Trump know that /wishful thinking
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 6:34 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 6:34 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I could see Weisselberg being somehow loyal enough to Trump to allow himself be chewed up by the machinery without talking. That's how lackeys in the mob are trained, right?
posted by hippybear at 6:47 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 6:47 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
My friends were wanting to chitchat while drinking about what might be in Trump's safe. My position was I couldn't think of anything worse for him than the report of nuclear secrets that had just dropped earlier that day. I still can't quite believe that even he was that stupid and brazen.
The actual blackmail material he's often fantasized to have on key Republicans and even Democrats would be pretty incendiary, as in cause complete and utter chaos. To learn for sure that such a thing exists and has likely been the basis for the last many years of government, not to mention the actual contents.
But that can't be the classified stuff, it would just be stuff that was ALSO found.
posted by ctmf at 7:04 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
The actual blackmail material he's often fantasized to have on key Republicans and even Democrats would be pretty incendiary, as in cause complete and utter chaos. To learn for sure that such a thing exists and has likely been the basis for the last many years of government, not to mention the actual contents.
But that can't be the classified stuff, it would just be stuff that was ALSO found.
posted by ctmf at 7:04 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
That's how lackeys in the mob are trained, right?
If they know what's good for them.
posted by ctmf at 7:11 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
If they know what's good for them.
posted by ctmf at 7:11 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
From Rumple’s NYT open link:
posted by cenoxo at 7:27 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
…On Monday, Mr. Weisselberg’s lawyers and prosecutors met with the judge overseeing the case, according to a court database. The judge scheduled a hearing for Thursday, a possible indication that a deal has been reached and a plea could be entered then.He might even be home by Christmas, perhaps with a little ‘Thanks for taking one for the Team’ gift from Secret Santa waiting under the tree.
While Mr. Weisselberg, 75, is facing financial penalties as well as up to 15 years in prison if convicted by a jury, a plea deal would avoid a high-profile trial and most likely would spare him a lengthy sentence. Two people with knowledge of the matter said that Mr. Weisselberg was expected to receive a five-month jail sentence. With time credited for good behavior, he is likely to serve about 100 days….
posted by cenoxo at 7:27 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
He might even be home by Christmas, perhaps with a little ‘Thanks for taking one for the Team’ gift from Secret Santa waiting under the tree.I feel like I must be misunderstanding this? Who could and would intervene for him?
posted by Flunkie at 7:30 PM on August 15, 2022
Trump; and not intervene, but make it worth his while to have taken the hit without ratting anyone else out (i.e. a holiday gift after he gets out of jail).
posted by eviemath at 8:27 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 8:27 PM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
On preview, what eviemath said. The Donald demands complete loyalty from Team Trump members, and perhaps he rewards his people who demonstrate it in a very concrete way.
posted by cenoxo at 8:34 PM on August 15, 2022
posted by cenoxo at 8:34 PM on August 15, 2022
Like declining to have them encased in concrete, in traditional mafia don fashion - a very rewarding outcome for all concerned!
/hamburger
posted by eviemath at 8:40 PM on August 15, 2022
/hamburger
posted by eviemath at 8:40 PM on August 15, 2022
You guys think Trump rewards loyalty?
posted by ryanrs at 9:14 PM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 9:14 PM on August 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Oh, I see. I misread, and was misunderstanding it as something like "He's going to be pardoned".
posted by Flunkie at 9:14 PM on August 15, 2022
posted by Flunkie at 9:14 PM on August 15, 2022
It seems like the new Manhattan District Attorney has decided to wind this down with a slap on the wrist. Something rotten is going on because his predecessor had been building a pretty solid case against Trump.
posted by interogative mood at 9:20 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:20 PM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Back to bigger fish.
What nuclear secrets could Trump have possibly taken? A nuclear weapons historian explains why it’s so hard to know what material Trump took., VOX, Christian Paz, Aug 12, 2022:
(Tip o’ the hat to wierdo above.)
posted by cenoxo at 10:22 PM on August 15, 2022
What nuclear secrets could Trump have possibly taken? A nuclear weapons historian explains why it’s so hard to know what material Trump took., VOX, Christian Paz, Aug 12, 2022:
…Former President Donald Trump has denied taking any nuclear-related documents, calling the [Washington] Post’s reporting a “Hoax” [Truth Social link]. Trump has been known to issue false and misleading statements before, of course, which raises the question: If Trump had nuclear secrets lying around his house, what might they be?Interview and quoted tweets follow in the Vox article.
“It could be anything ranging from something that would endanger the lives of hundreds of millions of people to something that has no impact on anything whatsoever. That’s how vague the classified categorization is,” Alex Wellerstein, a historian of science and nuclear weapons [WP bio; website; Restricted Data/Nuclear Secrecy Blog; author of Restricted Data — The History of Nuclear Secrecy in the United States; creator of NUKEMAP] told me.
I reached out to Wellerstein after the Post report, and after the New York Times reported that federal investigators were concerned about information from “special access programs” — what the Times called “extremely sensitive” US operations abroad, or sensitive technology or capabilities — falling into the wrong hands if it was being stored at Mar–a-Lago. In his research, Wellerstein has focused extensively on the history of nuclear weapons, presidential power over them, and how nuclear secrets are safeguarded.
I asked Wellerstein to offer some ways to think about all this news, and whether Trump could be in legal trouble. Our conversation, below, has been edited for clarity.
(Tip o’ the hat to wierdo above.)
posted by cenoxo at 10:22 PM on August 15, 2022
I noted a time back how the Trump presidency coincided with the exposure of Kim Jong-un's brother (Kim Jong-nam) as a spy against North Korea.
Kim Jong-nam had been in exile for 14 years. After his death, it was revealed to the public, that he had been a CIA asset.
Kim Jong-nam was murdered February 10, 2017, three weeks after Trump took office. The 14 years in which Kim was allowed to survive and then his sudden murder after Trump took office suggest to me a leak from the U.S. or from Trump himself. Could Trump have revealed the CIA status either through idiocy or in a desire to confer favor from Kim Jong-un?
I would like to point out that Kim-Jong-nam went to meet with his CIA handler at the time of his murder. So at the time of his death, he was a current, supposedly not previously exposed, asset.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:58 AM on August 15 [−] Favorite added! [!]
Thom Hartmann discusses allegations that the seized papers included payroll lists of US spies with Valerie Plame (she of many previlouslies).
posted by jamjam at 1:23 AM on August 16, 2022
Kim Jong-nam had been in exile for 14 years. After his death, it was revealed to the public, that he had been a CIA asset.
Kim Jong-nam was murdered February 10, 2017, three weeks after Trump took office. The 14 years in which Kim was allowed to survive and then his sudden murder after Trump took office suggest to me a leak from the U.S. or from Trump himself. Could Trump have revealed the CIA status either through idiocy or in a desire to confer favor from Kim Jong-un?
I would like to point out that Kim-Jong-nam went to meet with his CIA handler at the time of his murder. So at the time of his death, he was a current, supposedly not previously exposed, asset.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:58 AM on August 15 [−] Favorite added! [!]
Thom Hartmann discusses allegations that the seized papers included payroll lists of US spies with Valerie Plame (she of many previlouslies).
posted by jamjam at 1:23 AM on August 16, 2022
You guys think Trump rewards loyalty?
Wikipedia > List of people granted executive clemency by Donald Trump > Supporters and political allies:
posted by cenoxo at 2:05 AM on August 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Wikipedia > List of people granted executive clemency by Donald Trump > Supporters and political allies:
Trump's use of the pardon power was marked by an unprecedented degree of favoritism. He frequently granted executive clemency to his supporters or political allies, or following personal appeals or campaigns in conservative media, as in the cases of Rod Blagojevich, Michael Milken, Joe Arpaio, Dinesh D'Souza, and Clint Lorance, as well as Bernard Kerik.Trump can’t pardon anyone else now, but he’s pretty, um, creative (financially speaking).
Trump granted clemency to five of his former campaign staff members and political advisers: Paul Manafort, Roger Stone, Michael Flynn, Stephen K. Bannon, and George Papadopoulos.
posted by cenoxo at 2:05 AM on August 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
If Donnie calls something a hoax, it's a gold standard testimony as to its truth.
posted by Grangousier at 2:33 AM on August 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 2:33 AM on August 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
So the current thinking is that Trump/Kushner/Flynn/etc. sold nuclear secrets to Saudi Arabia?
posted by chaz at 7:03 AM on August 16, 2022
posted by chaz at 7:03 AM on August 16, 2022
Possibly, though it's probably something considerably stupider.
posted by acb at 7:06 AM on August 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by acb at 7:06 AM on August 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Wait, wait, wait...
Trump commuted the sentence of a Democrat, (Rod Blagojevich)?
Must have been because Blagojevich was his kinda guy, (a grifting, crooked, politician)...
posted by Windopaene at 7:17 AM on August 16, 2022
Trump commuted the sentence of a Democrat, (Rod Blagojevich)?
Must have been because Blagojevich was his kinda guy, (a grifting, crooked, politician)...
posted by Windopaene at 7:17 AM on August 16, 2022
Rod was also a contestant on Season 3 of Celebrity Apprentice. Don likes celebrities. Don likes people on Celebrity Apprentice more.
posted by mmascolino at 7:20 AM on August 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mmascolino at 7:20 AM on August 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
I saw that, but, he also fired him after 4 shows...
Trying to keep "his people" in the fold I guess...
posted by Windopaene at 7:24 AM on August 16, 2022
Trying to keep "his people" in the fold I guess...
posted by Windopaene at 7:24 AM on August 16, 2022
How Trump's Search Worked, with Nifty Graphic - emptywheel
posted by kirkaracha at 7:25 AM on August 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 7:25 AM on August 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Michael Cohen thinks the documents were for blackmailing the US government. TW: Michael Cohen, obvs.
posted by mumimor at 7:41 AM on August 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 7:41 AM on August 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Letters From an American August 15, 2022, Heather Cox Richardson
In the issue of Trump’s theft of classified documents from the National Archives and Records Administration when he left office, over the weekend, Maggie Haberman and Glenn Thrush reported in the New York Times that last June, one of Trump’s lawyers signed a statement saying that all classified documents that had made it to Mar-a-Lago had been given back to the National Archives and Records Administration. But, of course, the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago last Monday revealed that assertion to be incorrect.posted by Glinn at 7:48 AM on August 16, 2022 [27 favorites]
The statement was made after Jay I. Bratt, the Justice Department’s top counterintelligence officer, visited Mar-a-Lago on June 3. The House and Senate intelligence committees have asked Director of National Intelligence Avril D. Haines to provide the committees with a damage assessment of how badly Trump’s retention of top secret classified documents in an insecure location has damaged national security.
Today, the Department of Justice has asked a judge not to unseal the affidavit behind the search warrant for Mar-a-Lago, saying that it “implicates highly classified materials,” and that disclosing the affidavit right now would "cause significant and irreparable damage to this ongoing criminal investigation." CNN, the Washington Post, NBC News, and Scripps all asked the judge to unseal all documents related to the Mar-a-Lago search. But, “[i]f disclosed,” the Justice Department wrote, “the affidavit would serve as a roadmap to the government’s ongoing investigation, providing specific details about its direction and likely course, in a manner that is highly likely to compromise future investigative steps.”
Legal analyst and Harvard Law professor Laurence Tribe commented: “This suggests [the Department of Justice] wasn’t just repatriating top secret doc[ument]s to get them out of Trump’s unsafe clutches but is pursuing a path looking toward criminal indictment.”
I don't like living in interesting times.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:37 AM on August 16, 2022 [27 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 8:37 AM on August 16, 2022 [27 favorites]
I don't think the DOJ would have been cool with releasing the affidavit whether or not they were strongly looking at charges. Why would they agree to release something like that if they didn't have to? They haven't even had time to go through the material they got in the search. At best it indicates that the investigation is still open, which we already knew anyway.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:20 AM on August 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:20 AM on August 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
FYI, regular Americans can have two US Passports too. The most common case is that you travel to Israel and also travel to other countries in the Middle East that may reject entry for someone with a passport stamp from Israel. My dad had two for a while when he was traveling a lot for work, which at that time was with a company that provided cellular infrastructure (like, the towers and dishes), when the entire world was building out really fast.
My immediate assumption was that he had a second regular passport because he travels/has traveled in the Middle East, although I suppose a diplomatic passport is also possible.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:50 PM on August 15 [5 favorites +] [!]
Just speculation, but if one of those (I believe now that 2 are expired) is a foreign passport. I'm sure he would spin it as "just to have citizenship where my golf courses/businesses are" but I would love to learn that he had a Russian or Saudi passport.
America First, etc.
posted by Snowishberlin at 5:23 PM on August 16, 2022
My immediate assumption was that he had a second regular passport because he travels/has traveled in the Middle East, although I suppose a diplomatic passport is also possible.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:50 PM on August 15 [5 favorites +] [!]
Just speculation, but if one of those (I believe now that 2 are expired) is a foreign passport. I'm sure he would spin it as "just to have citizenship where my golf courses/businesses are" but I would love to learn that he had a Russian or Saudi passport.
America First, etc.
posted by Snowishberlin at 5:23 PM on August 16, 2022
"Trump commuted the sentence of a Democrat, (Rod Blagojevich)?"
He was like, "See? I'm so bipartisan!" and instead of thanking him for his magnanimity, the entirety of the Illinois Democratic Party was like, "PLEASE do not commute his sentence, he did bad things, and he needs to serve his prison time," so then Trump was like, "Well now I'm going to double extra commute his sentence because it'll piss off Chicago Democrats."
Literally nobody wanted Blago to get out of prison except Blago and his wife. Even his daughters (the older of whom was over 21) wouldn't speak in favor of his commutation. Now he does a podcast, raises money for horrific Republican candidates, and is suing the state of Illinois to regain his right to run for office. And it's like, "ROD. How can we miss you if you won't go away????"
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:01 PM on August 16, 2022 [21 favorites]
He was like, "See? I'm so bipartisan!" and instead of thanking him for his magnanimity, the entirety of the Illinois Democratic Party was like, "PLEASE do not commute his sentence, he did bad things, and he needs to serve his prison time," so then Trump was like, "Well now I'm going to double extra commute his sentence because it'll piss off Chicago Democrats."
Literally nobody wanted Blago to get out of prison except Blago and his wife. Even his daughters (the older of whom was over 21) wouldn't speak in favor of his commutation. Now he does a podcast, raises money for horrific Republican candidates, and is suing the state of Illinois to regain his right to run for office. And it's like, "ROD. How can we miss you if you won't go away????"
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:01 PM on August 16, 2022 [21 favorites]
Thoughts on the Mar-a-Lago Search and the President’s Classification and Declassification Authority, Jeh Johnson [WP bio], Lawfare, August 15, 2022:
Charlie Savage's piece "Presidential Power to Declassify Information, Explained“ [alternate link], published yesterday in the New York Times, is an excellent and informative writing on the classification authority and how it might impact a potential criminal case against former President Donald Trump for wrongful possession at Mar-a-Lago of documents containing classified and highly sensitive information.Johnson’s observations follow in the article. He closes with the following statement:
As someone who for a time handled, read, created and relied upon classified documents on a daily basis, I offer these additional thoughts:…
In 2016 the American people engaged in a dangerous experiment: electing to the powerful office of the presidency a man with virtually no public office experience, no understanding of the Constitution or history, no respect for law, no moral compass, possessed only of autocratic impulses and a thirst for power for the sake of power. With the violent events of Jan. 6, 2021 and each new facet of the many investigations surrounding Trump, we continue to pay the price for that experiment.posted by cenoxo at 6:43 PM on August 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
In my opinion, whether our democracy recovers fully from this experiment remains an open question.
Trump is rushing to hire seasoned lawyers — but he keeps hearing ‘No’.
The former president’s current legal team includes an insurance lawyer who’s never had a federal case, a past general counsel for a parking-garage company, and a former host at OAN.
posted by orange swan at 7:09 PM on August 16, 2022 [12 favorites]
The former president’s current legal team includes an insurance lawyer who’s never had a federal case, a past general counsel for a parking-garage company, and a former host at OAN.
posted by orange swan at 7:09 PM on August 16, 2022 [12 favorites]
he's a smart guy - do you realize that if he gets into a fender-bender in the fox news parking lot, he's covered?
posted by pyramid termite at 7:12 PM on August 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 7:12 PM on August 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Trump is rushing to hire seasoned lawyers — but he keeps hearing ‘No’.
This is weird in a different way than I thought.
First of all, why is he suing people? Wouldn't that expose him? Back when he was just a criminal NY real estate dealer, he used lawsuits to intimidate people to shut up, and I don't know about the niece, but NYTimes, Clinton and the DNC have enough money that they won't be intimidated or make deals.
do. But it seems that as time passes he more and more prefers ass-licking wackos on his legal team, not someone who tells him to keep his mouth shut.
posted by mumimor at 12:13 AM on August 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is weird in a different way than I thought.
First of all, why is he suing people? Wouldn't that expose him? Back when he was just a criminal NY real estate dealer, he used lawsuits to intimidate people to shut up, and I don't know about the niece, but NYTimes, Clinton and the DNC have enough money that they won't be intimidated or make deals.
Last year, Habba started representing Trump in several cases including defending him from a defamation claim by the writer E. Jean Carroll, who accused him of a decades-old sexual assault; suing the New York Times and Trump’s niece, Mary L. Trump; and suing 2016 opponent Hillary Clinton, the Democratic National Committee and other perceived enemies, alleging a conspiracy to harm Donald Trump through the Russia scandal.Second, the headline says he is looking for good lawyers, but is he really?
Dershowitz said he recommended Harvard colleague Ronald S. Sullivan Jr., the faculty director of the Harvard Criminal Justice Institute and the Harvard Trial Advocacy Workshop. Sullivan said he hasn’t heard from Trump’s team.I'm not saying Trump should follow Dershowitz' recommendation, I have no idea what he should or even could
do. But it seems that as time passes he more and more prefers ass-licking wackos on his legal team, not someone who tells him to keep his mouth shut.
posted by mumimor at 12:13 AM on August 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
That's probably question #1 any lawyer asks him in the first interview. Can you shut the fuck up, say nothing to the media, and not use any social media for the duration of the litigation?
No.
Then, no. Can't represent you.
posted by ctmf at 1:31 AM on August 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
No.
Then, no. Can't represent you.
posted by ctmf at 1:31 AM on August 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
I would love to learn that he had a Russian or Saudi passport.
Wouldn't he have to convert to Islam to get Saudi citizenship?
posted by acb at 1:53 AM on August 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
Wouldn't he have to convert to Islam to get Saudi citizenship?
posted by acb at 1:53 AM on August 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
That's probably question #1 any lawyer asks him in the first interview. Can you shut the fuck up, say nothing to the media, and not use any social media for the duration of the litigation?Well, he'd probably answer "Yes".
No.
Then, no. Can't represent you.
Or more likely, Yes, of course I can shut up and not use social media. Everybody knows I can shut up and not use social media. Just the other day eighteen vets came up to me -- and not all at once, one by one -- and these guys all had Purple Hearts, by the way -- and said to me, "Mr. President, sir" -- very respectful, very very very very respectful -- "You are the best at shutting up and not using social media. Everybody knows it. Everybody. Everybody knows it, Mr. President sir. Everybody. Everybody. Everybody." I said "Well, that's very nice of you to say, and OK, maybe I'm pretty good at it, but..." and they interrupted me and said "Mr. President, sir, I am very very very sorry, really sorry, for interrupting you, Mr. President, sir" -- very respectful -- "but this is important: No, you're not just 'pretty good' at it... you're the best. The best. The best, Mr. President, sir." Most of them had about ten Purple Hearts each. One of them even had a Gold Heart too. They all had about ten Gold Hearts each. At least. Hillary's emails, very bad, very very very bad. They all gave me their Gold Hearts. I said no, no, those are yours, but they wouldn't take no for an answer, "Mr. President, sir, it would be my biggest honor in my entire life to give you all fifteen hundred of my Gold Hearts, Mr. President, sir." Russia, Fake News. Hunter Biden laptop. Hillary, very very very very very bad acid washed server, very bad. They were all generals, too. Not those loser one star generals either. Three thousand Gold Hearts each, all of them made by the very very prestigious Faberge Egg Company. I said Kid Rock, do you want to see the nuclear? I got all the nuclear. Obama! He never could have had the nuclear like I have! Also, Obama stole all the nuclear. So hateful. So hateful. I love the Bible.
posted by Flunkie at 4:06 AM on August 17, 2022 [56 favorites]
Two Corinthians.
posted by box at 4:32 AM on August 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by box at 4:32 AM on August 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
Letters From an American August 16, 2022, Heather Cox Richardson
Trump has continued to throw out more excuses for his theft of classified documents, recently suggesting his former chief of staff Mark Meadows is at fault for failing to organize a system to send documents to the National Archives and Records Administration and then suggesting that he had withheld the documents because he didn’t trust the “partisan Democrat appointees” who were “releasing thousands of his White House documents to the January 6 Committee in spite of his lawyers’ claims of executive privilege.”posted by Glinn at 6:19 AM on August 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
Maggie Haberman at the New York Times broke the news today that Trump’s White House counsel and deputy White House counsel, Pat A. Cipollone and Patrick F. Philbin, have talked to the FBI in the last few months about the stolen documents. According to two witnesses, when Philbin tried to get him to return documents to the National Archives and Records Administration, Trump said, “It’s not theirs, it’s mine.”
Josh Campbell, CNN’s national security and law enforcement correspondent, said that Trump loyalists’ attacks on the FBI for its role in searching Mar-a-Lago for the classified documents Trump stole have taken a toll. “The head of the FBI Agents Association tells me threats against the bureau are ‘real’ and ‘imminent,’” Campbell tweeted. “The organization is demanding political leaders unequivocally denounce these attacks, insisting: ‘There is NO justification for targeting law enforcement in the United States.’”
The Donald doesn’t have to represent himself to be a fool as a client: that comes naturally. Does he actually listen to his attorneys’ advice, or does he just tell them what a brilliant legal mind he has and to do what he says?
posted by cenoxo at 6:35 AM on August 17, 2022
posted by cenoxo at 6:35 AM on August 17, 2022
…or does he just tell them what a brilliant legal mind he has and to do what he says?
Yes — see orange swan’s earlier WaPo link.
posted by cenoxo at 7:21 AM on August 17, 2022
Yes — see orange swan’s earlier WaPo link.
posted by cenoxo at 7:21 AM on August 17, 2022
I would love to learn that he had a Russian or Saudi passport.
Wouldn't he have to convert to Islam to get Saudi citizenship?
Why not, he converted to Christianity to get elected President.
posted by darkstar at 7:24 AM on August 17, 2022 [16 favorites]
Wouldn't he have to convert to Islam to get Saudi citizenship?
Why not, he converted to Christianity to get elected President.
posted by darkstar at 7:24 AM on August 17, 2022 [16 favorites]
I have no evidence of it, but I think we all know that Trump would absolutely pretend to convert to Islam if it would save his skin or a single dollar, and that MBS would absolutely pretend to believe him for the same reasons.
posted by Etrigan at 7:53 AM on August 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 7:53 AM on August 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
Wouldn't he have to convert to Islam to get Saudi citizenship?
Saying the shahada for an escape hatch is not something I would put beyond Trump. Of course, you have to mean it in your heart, but going through the motions is probably enough to get him a passport.
posted by dis_integration at 7:59 AM on August 17, 2022
Saying the shahada for an escape hatch is not something I would put beyond Trump. Of course, you have to mean it in your heart, but going through the motions is probably enough to get him a passport.
posted by dis_integration at 7:59 AM on August 17, 2022
Of course, you have to mean it in your heart, but going through the motions is probably enough to get him a passport.
One amusing thing to come out of it would be that Saudi passport photos require the subject to be in traditional dress.
posted by nathan_teske at 9:07 AM on August 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
One amusing thing to come out of it would be that Saudi passport photos require the subject to be in traditional dress.
posted by nathan_teske at 9:07 AM on August 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
I would dismiss this as patently ridiculous, but then, pretty much everything he accuses other people of doing it eventually turns out he does, has done, or will do himself. And the two baseless accusations he's spent the most time hammering on are Hilary Clinton mishandling classified information, and Barack Obama being a secret Muslim.
posted by aubilenon at 9:36 AM on August 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 9:36 AM on August 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
I get why people think it's funny, but hinting that he's Muslim is a) a dig at a lot of blameless Muslims and b) normalizing that being Muslim is something you should be ashamed of, which...
As far as I can tell, TFG still adheres to the sort-of Protestantism of Norman Vincent Peale with its focus on positive thinking and the Prosperity Gospel, which should e cause for side-eye all by itself.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:39 PM on August 17, 2022 [13 favorites]
As far as I can tell, TFG still adheres to the sort-of Protestantism of Norman Vincent Peale with its focus on positive thinking and the Prosperity Gospel, which should e cause for side-eye all by itself.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:39 PM on August 17, 2022 [13 favorites]
As for being a secret Muslim, he doesn’t drink.He says he doesn't drink. He says a lot of things.
posted by Flunkie at 2:03 PM on August 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Per NY Daily News:
posted by bcd at 2:36 PM on August 17, 2022 [13 favorites]
The Trump Organization’s longtime chief financial officer will admit to conspiring with the Trump Organization and Trump Payroll Corporation in a 15-year tax fraud scheme while head of the company’s finances at a Manhattan Supreme Court hearing on Thursday, the Daily News has confirmed.We should know early tomorrow, one way or the other. Here's hoping.
Allen Weisselberg is expected to criminally implicate Trump’s family real estate business when he pleads guilty to criminal tax fraud charges, a source familiar with the matter told The News on Wednesday.
As part of Weisselberg’s plea deal — for which he’s expected to serve five months on Rikers Island — Weisselberg will agree to testify against the companies when they goes to trial in October if he is called as a witness, according to a source who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
posted by bcd at 2:36 PM on August 17, 2022 [13 favorites]
I get why people think it's funny, but hinting that he's Muslim is a) a dig at a lot of blameless Muslims and b) normalizing that being Muslim is something you should be ashamed of, which...
No one here is doing anything remotely like hinting that he's Muslim or saying that being Muslim is shameful. We're saying that he's a grifter who has only ever used religion as part of his grift.
As far as I can tell, TFG still adheres to the sort-of Protestantism of Norman Vincent Peale with its focus on positive thinking and the Prosperity Gospel, which should e cause for side-eye all by itself.
He doesn't adhere to any form of religiosity besides self-worship. He pretty clearly doesn't believe in the Prosperity Gospel either, except in the sense that he's a god and he smiles down on himself. And ascribing that to him isn't making a dig at blameless Christians or normalizing that being Christian is something anyone should be ashamed of.
He's Franklin Graham, not Billy.
posted by Etrigan at 2:45 PM on August 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
No one here is doing anything remotely like hinting that he's Muslim or saying that being Muslim is shameful. We're saying that he's a grifter who has only ever used religion as part of his grift.
As far as I can tell, TFG still adheres to the sort-of Protestantism of Norman Vincent Peale with its focus on positive thinking and the Prosperity Gospel, which should e cause for side-eye all by itself.
He doesn't adhere to any form of religiosity besides self-worship. He pretty clearly doesn't believe in the Prosperity Gospel either, except in the sense that he's a god and he smiles down on himself. And ascribing that to him isn't making a dig at blameless Christians or normalizing that being Christian is something anyone should be ashamed of.
He's Franklin Graham, not Billy.
posted by Etrigan at 2:45 PM on August 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
Mod note: Several deleted. Let's pump the brakes on the religion derail now, thanks.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 3:32 PM on August 17, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 3:32 PM on August 17, 2022 [14 favorites]
What a difference a day makes. Yesterday he was pleading guilty but not agreeing to testify. Now it looks more like a standard plea agreement.
posted by interogative mood at 5:09 PM on August 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 5:09 PM on August 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Will Weisselberg implicate Donald and/or other Trump family members, or just non-family executives/staff of the Trump Organization and Trump Payroll Corporation?
posted by cenoxo at 5:46 PM on August 17, 2022
posted by cenoxo at 5:46 PM on August 17, 2022
I think this is against the companies and not against individuals. I don't see any mention of people being brought to trial. Other than corporations, which are people apparently.
posted by hippybear at 5:57 PM on August 17, 2022
posted by hippybear at 5:57 PM on August 17, 2022
It might depend on how much he enjoys his stay at Rikers.
posted by mochapickle at 5:57 PM on August 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mochapickle at 5:57 PM on August 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
LOL, I see that today Trump threatened…er…is contemplating releasing video of the FBI raid.
I think it was only two days ago that he tried to get a message to Merrick Garland about how important it was to “find some way we can turn down the temperature on this issue or there could be violence.” Which a lot of people interpreted as a veiled threat to back off or he’d inflame his supporters further.
“Oh no,” his supporters cried, “that couldn’t possibly be his meaning! He’s just concerned about our democracy and the possibility of violence.” All the while baying for blood.
So, of course, his camp is doxxing the FBI agents involved in the search and threatening to show video of his persecution.
He really is just the worst garbage human.
posted by darkstar at 8:19 PM on August 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
I think it was only two days ago that he tried to get a message to Merrick Garland about how important it was to “find some way we can turn down the temperature on this issue or there could be violence.” Which a lot of people interpreted as a veiled threat to back off or he’d inflame his supporters further.
“Oh no,” his supporters cried, “that couldn’t possibly be his meaning! He’s just concerned about our democracy and the possibility of violence.” All the while baying for blood.
So, of course, his camp is doxxing the FBI agents involved in the search and threatening to show video of his persecution.
He really is just the worst garbage human.
posted by darkstar at 8:19 PM on August 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
So two Corinthians walk into a bar and, uh, and we’ll that’s the whole thing isn‘t it? The whole big, beautiful thing
posted by From Bklyn at 11:11 PM on August 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 11:11 PM on August 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Allen Weisselberg is expected to criminally implicate Trump’s family real estate business when he pleads guilty to criminal tax fraud charges, a source familiar with the matter told The News on Wednesday.
oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:04 AM on August 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:04 AM on August 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think that means the real estate business, not Trump himself.
posted by ryanrs at 10:28 AM on August 18, 2022
posted by ryanrs at 10:28 AM on August 18, 2022
It's a start.
As Billy Ray Valentine said, "You know, it occurs to me that the best way to hurt rich people is by turning them into poor people."
posted by MtDewd at 10:37 AM on August 18, 2022 [16 favorites]
As Billy Ray Valentine said, "You know, it occurs to me that the best way to hurt rich people is by turning them into poor people."
posted by MtDewd at 10:37 AM on August 18, 2022 [16 favorites]
From CNN: The plea puts him at odds with the Trump Organization, where he worked for 40 years, and his testimony could damage the company, if it goes to trial on related tax charges as scheduled in October. Weisselberg has been fiercely loyal to the Trump family, having worked for them since 1973. Yet even by providing testimony against the company Weisselberg will not implicate any Trump family members, who were not accused of any wrongdoing. If the Trump Organization is convicted, it could be required to pay back taxes and fines, but no individual will go to prison.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:45 AM on August 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 10:45 AM on August 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Weisselberg was the business's accountant and can only speak to what the business did. If he was directed to handle things in a certain way then I believe that will come out in court. Trump learned young not to leave a paper trail and always leave room for plausible deniability. Tax cheats always leave a gulf between their in house accounting and their tax preparers, the tax guy can always claim to have misunderstood or 'mistakes happen'. It will be interesting.
posted by readery at 11:04 AM on August 18, 2022
posted by readery at 11:04 AM on August 18, 2022
I think that means the real estate business, not Trump himself.
Hey, tax evasion is how they finally brought down Al Capone. All it takes is one little chink in the armor for the law to sneak in, and once they're inside they can go after the real problems.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:06 AM on August 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
Hey, tax evasion is how they finally brought down Al Capone. All it takes is one little chink in the armor for the law to sneak in, and once they're inside they can go after the real problems.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:06 AM on August 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile, elsewhere: attorneys for several major news media outlets are asking Reinhart to make the affidavit public.
Their argument: it’s of interest to the American public, and it will help us all determine for ourselves whether this is a credible investigation or a politically-motivated hit job by evil mastermind Dark Brandon. (I paraphrase.)
posted by armeowda at 11:08 AM on August 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Their argument: it’s of interest to the American public, and it will help us all determine for ourselves whether this is a credible investigation or a politically-motivated hit job by evil mastermind Dark Brandon. (I paraphrase.)
posted by armeowda at 11:08 AM on August 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
CBS:
Judge Bruce Reinhart has ordered the government to move forward with proposing redactions to the affidavit that supported the warrant to search former President Donald Trump's residence last week.posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:52 AM on August 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
Reinhart says he is "not prepared to find the affidavit should be fully sealed… there are portions of it that could, at least, presumptively be unsealed."
The proposed redactions are due in one week.
Regarding one of the bullshit 'defenses' being floated, that Trump issued a standing order that all material being sent to the residence portion of the WH was to be declassified automatically, CNN has interviewed some witnesses. In particular including two of Trump's own chiefs of staff:
John Kelly says, "Nothing approaching an order that foolish was ever given."
Mick Mulvaney says he was, "not aware of a general standing order."
Lots more in the article.
posted by bcd at 1:41 PM on August 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
John Kelly says, "Nothing approaching an order that foolish was ever given."
Mick Mulvaney says he was, "not aware of a general standing order."
Lots more in the article.
posted by bcd at 1:41 PM on August 18, 2022 [10 favorites]
Well, obviously, the order to declassify anything that Trump touched was deeply classified information that was only declassified on a need-to-know basis, i.e. only for Trump himself to know about and act on.
(Someone on OANN or Newsmax will claim that within the week.)
posted by delfin at 1:49 PM on August 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
(Someone on OANN or Newsmax will claim that within the week.)
posted by delfin at 1:49 PM on August 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
The did release the coversheet from the warrant today, and it has one tiny bit of clarification. Where the violations were listed, beside 18 U.S.C. § 793 they describe it as "willful retention of national defense information". That means 793 (d) is the operative subsection there.
posted by bcd at 1:52 PM on August 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by bcd at 1:52 PM on August 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
(Someone on OANN or Newsmax will claim that within the week.)
Newsmax had Paul Manafort on today, with the graphic beside his talking head describing him as, "Author & Political Prisoner", so... yup. Indubitably.
posted by bcd at 2:26 PM on August 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
Newsmax had Paul Manafort on today, with the graphic beside his talking head describing him as, "Author & Political Prisoner", so... yup. Indubitably.
posted by bcd at 2:26 PM on August 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
This from CREW is going to combine nicely with those § 1519 violations I think:
posted by bcd at 9:57 PM on August 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
We won! We're going to get the secret memo Barr used to undercut the Mueller Report and claim it was insufficient to find Trump obstructed justice. And we're going to make it public.The full decision is here. No word yet on just when that will be made public.
posted by bcd at 9:57 PM on August 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
The Mysteries of Mar-a-Lago NYTimes gift link
posted by mumimor at 1:09 AM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
If and when the affidavit is unsealed, which could happen as soon as next Thursday, we may get answers to some of these questions. But Kash Patel, a former National Security Council staff member whom Mr. Trump appointed as a legal liaison to the National Archives on June 19, has suggested that the documents relate “not just to Russiagate but to national security matters, to the Ukraine impeachment.”I recently saw Kash Patel on TV for the first time. I don't know what to say, and I shouldn't have been surprised, but man, the trumpists are so far beyond all norms of civilisation...
Mr. Patel, who sports a large lapel pin reading “K$H,” was one of the Trump appointees who led the attempt to uncover the secrets of the “deep state” that consumed the president during his last year in power. He served, by turns, as the right hand to the acting director of national intelligence and the acting secretary of defense. And in his desperate final weeks in office, Mr. Trump came close to making Mr. Patel acting director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Faced with the wrath of the actual director, Gina Haspel, the president backed down at the last minute.
But Mr. Patel remained in the ex-president’s orbit as the confrontation over the Mar-a-Lago cache slowly escalated this spring. In June, when he became an official National Archives representative, a Trump spokeswoman emphasized that Mr. Patel was working to disclose “documents that reveal a clear conspiracy to unlawfully spy on candidate and then President Donald J. Trump” — in other words, the same sorts of documents he seems to have been seeking to uncover at the highest levels of American intelligence two years ago, at Mr. Trump’s command. (Mr. Patel did not return an email seeking comment.)
posted by mumimor at 1:09 AM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Hey, tax evasion is how they finally brought down Al Capone. All it takes is one little chink in the armor for the law to sneak in, and once they're inside they can go after the real problems.
In the Capone case they notably did not go after the real problem other than imprisoning Capone and the Chicago Outfit still even exists and operates semi-openly to this day.
posted by srboisvert at 6:50 AM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
In the Capone case they notably did not go after the real problem other than imprisoning Capone and the Chicago Outfit still even exists and operates semi-openly to this day.
posted by srboisvert at 6:50 AM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
Fair point re: Capone and the Chicago Outfit. However, a good counter-argument I've heard is that Trump the man is more intimately involved with Trump the corporation than Capone was with the Chicago Outfit.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:54 AM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:54 AM on August 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Counter-counter-argument: "Trump the corporation" is not the "real problem" anyway. I mean, sure, "shady company led by shady people cheats on taxes" is bad, and they should be punished for it. But in the grand scheme of things, who cares? It's trivial compared to the actual problem, which is the political culture that led to a patently unsuitable person becoming the President of the United States.
posted by Flunkie at 5:37 PM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 5:37 PM on August 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
"Trump the corporation" is not the "real problem" anyway.
I'm actually a bit terrified at what damage the Trump machine could do if it wasn't saddled with Donald as its inept leader, perpetually undercutting his own agenda on social media. But perhaps the price of channeling the deranged to do your bidding is to first become deranged yourself.
posted by pwnguin at 11:08 PM on August 20, 2022
I'm actually a bit terrified at what damage the Trump machine could do if it wasn't saddled with Donald as its inept leader, perpetually undercutting his own agenda on social media. But perhaps the price of channeling the deranged to do your bidding is to first become deranged yourself.
posted by pwnguin at 11:08 PM on August 20, 2022
emptywheel: NEXT STEPS IN THE TRUMP STOLEN DOCUMENTS INVESTIGATION
Near the beginning:
Near the beginning:
And it sounds like Trump won’t be charged anytime soon. At a hearing before Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart last week, the head of DOJ’s counterintelligence section, Jay Bratt, said the investigation is in its “early stages.”Bleah, but not surprising. It ends with a discussion of the Inventory.
Trump is suspected not just of stealing classified documents, there are known documents that he was suspected of hoarding at his home — according to the WaPo, including documents about nuclear weapons.posted by kingless at 12:25 PM on August 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
So in addition to all the other reviews and an inventory that the FBI will make of what it seized, between FBI and NARA, they’re going to need to compare the seized documents with the existing catalog to see whether all the documents known to be missing were seized and whether the seized documents identify other missing documents.
If there are known documents that witnesses say had been at Mar-a-Lago but they weren’t found in the search … then things will get really interesting.
It looks like Trump's representing himself. I'd thought the best - most entertaining? - possibility was that he'd hire someone incompetent: I stand corrected.
posted by Pronoiac at 2:17 PM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 2:17 PM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Come on; he has the best legal brain, and winners of the Nobel Prize for Law go up to him all the time and tell him. He'll win bigly!
posted by acb at 2:31 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 2:31 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Gah, I spoke too soon. "lawyers filed the motion."
posted by Pronoiac at 2:31 PM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 2:31 PM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Still... Holy shit.
These arguments are unhinged to an extreme degree. Almost like desperation is setting in. Just, wow. /dogememe
posted by Windopaene at 2:46 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
These arguments are unhinged to an extreme degree. Almost like desperation is setting in. Just, wow. /dogememe
posted by Windopaene at 2:46 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Finding that Liz Dye's review of the filing (SLTwitter) is pretty interesting
posted by nubs at 3:43 PM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 3:43 PM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
“Thank you, your did not need to show us the storage room, now it all makes sense.” — FBI investigator
If a cop tells you this, you are in danger.
posted by interogative mood at 4:07 PM on August 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
If a cop tells you this, you are in danger.
posted by interogative mood at 4:07 PM on August 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
Why does it say "pro se" when there are actual lawyers who filed it?
posted by meese at 4:17 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by meese at 4:17 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Because it’s prose
posted by Going To Maine at 4:52 PM on August 22, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 4:52 PM on August 22, 2022 [11 favorites]
"Now it all makes sense, sir," the agent said with tears in his eyes, slowly saluting.
posted by mittens at 5:01 PM on August 22, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by mittens at 5:01 PM on August 22, 2022 [17 favorites]
George Conway
"This padlock is like nothing we've ever seen," balled the other agent, a giant man with negative five percent body fat. His impossibly deep voice cracking, the agent stammered, "If the government had a room like this, we'd be out of jobs. Sir, the nation owes you a great debt."
posted by interogative mood at 5:11 PM on August 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
"This padlock is like nothing we've ever seen," balled the other agent, a giant man with negative five percent body fat. His impossibly deep voice cracking, the agent stammered, "If the government had a room like this, we'd be out of jobs. Sir, the nation owes you a great debt."
posted by interogative mood at 5:11 PM on August 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
Why does it say "pro se" when there are actual lawyers who filed it?I'm not totally sure, as it's not spelled out explicitly, but it seems to me like Pronoiac's "Gah, I spoke too soon" link implies that it was just a photoshop.
posted by Flunkie at 5:45 PM on August 22, 2022
Trump’s throw-everything-against-the-wall response to the Mar-a-Lago search — Here is a thorough run down of what the former president’s team has argued, so far., Kyle Cheney, Josh Gerstein, Nicolas Wu; Politico, 08/21/2022:
posted by cenoxo at 6:26 PM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
…an increasingly apparent truth about Donald Trump’s legal strategy in the week since the FBI searched his Mar-a-Lago home: He and his team haven’t settled on a singular approach and appear in the dark about what may come next. Trump has often used litigation to delay but has been loath to go on offense, particularly when he’s likely to lose. His vow Friday to make a “major motion” appeared in keeping with that approach.Details follow in the article.
While it’s unclear whether the former president or any of his top allies are at imminent risk of criminal charges, they have sketched out competing and sometimes conflicting positions that may come into play as the investigation — now in its “early stages” — accelerates.
Here’s a look at the Trump team’s early, shifting strategies and how they may fare [bullets added for clarity]:
- Calls for transparency that don’t show up in court
- Presidential vs. Personal
- Going after the judge
- Claiming the FBI overstepped
- Arguing DOJ didn’t exhaust all other options
- Delay is Trump’s friend
posted by cenoxo at 6:26 PM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think, knowing nothing about legal stuff other than what I can glean from poking around the twitter thread, the "pro se" was an artifact of how the thing was filed. Like the court software puts pro se in as an automatic default until it catches up with the rest of the data and eventually knows who the lawyer actually is? Something like that.
posted by rifflesby at 8:04 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rifflesby at 8:04 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
so not a photoshop or anything, just normal quirks of the process that look weird if you look too soon
posted by rifflesby at 8:05 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rifflesby at 8:05 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
And another one hits the wall: Trump files suit demanding special master in Mar-a-Lago search case — The former president enters the legal wrangling. But did he move too late?, Politico, Josh Gerstein, Kyle Cheney; 08/22/2022:
posted by cenoxo at 9:07 PM on August 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
Former President Donald Trump made his first foray into the legal fight over the FBI search of his Mar-a-Lago estate, seeking the appointment of a “special master” to screen seized materials for potential privileged information.More details in the article. This is Trump’s same old modus operandi: deny, blame, obfuscate, delay, file motions, grasp at straws, baffle with legalese, play the eternal victim, rinse & repeat ad infintum.
In a legal filing [PDF link, 27 pages] Monday afternoon in federal court in Florida, attorneys for Trump asked the court to appoint a third party to sift through the records FBI seized two weeks ago as part of an investigation into unlawful retention of classified information, misappropriation of presidential and federal records and potential obstruction of justice.
“This matter has captured the attention of the American public,” Trump’s motion says. “Merely adequate safeguards are not acceptable when the matter at hand involves not only the constitutional rights of President Trump, but also the preservation of executive privilege.”
In the submission, styled as a “Motion for Judicial Oversight and Additional Relief,” Trump’s lawyers also asked that investigators be blocked from further review of the seized materials until a third-party review process is in place….
posted by cenoxo at 9:07 PM on August 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
Trump appointee Judge Aileen Cannon's first substantive step in Trump's Mar-a-Lago lawsuit is to ask for multiple clarifications and explanations about what he's seeking — and on what legal basis he thinks she can act.
posted by orange swan at 4:58 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 4:58 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
Trump appointee Judge Aileen Cannon's first substantive step in Trump's Mar-a-Lago lawsuit is to ask for multiple clarifications and explanations about what he's seeking — and on what legal basis he thinks she can act.
Is this the judicial equivalent of when Fox anchors would tell him "What I think you meant to say, Mr. President..." when he called in to ramble?
posted by Etrigan at 7:13 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Is this the judicial equivalent of when Fox anchors would tell him "What I think you meant to say, Mr. President..." when he called in to ramble?
posted by Etrigan at 7:13 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
The top-of-the-line, serious professional, best people on Team Trump score another own goal:
Raw Story:
posted by Mitheral at 7:22 PM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
Raw Story:
Former President Donald Trump reportedly released a new document very late Monday night that legal experts believe is incredibly damningPolitico:
Documents recovered at Mar-a-Lago were among government's most classified, letter showFull text of the May 10 NARA letter [Just the News]
posted by Mitheral at 7:22 PM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
Is this the judicial equivalent of when Fox anchors would tell him "What I think you meant to say, Mr. President..." when he called in to ramble?The article, at least, doesn't read that way to me. Here are a couple paragraphs from it which I feel more or less sum it up:
Cannon didn’t explicitly criticize the 27-page motion Trump’s lawyers filed on Monday, but her requests for clarification seemed to dovetail with criticism from some legal observers who called the submission convoluted, confusing and loaded with heaping servings of political rhetoric unrelated to the legal questions at issue. She wants answers to her queries by Friday, but did not set a hearing or further proceedings on the former president’s request.I'm not a lawyer or anything, but that reads to me like "WTF? Be specific", not "How can I help you make America great again, Mr. President, sir?"
Among the issues the judge asked Trump’s attorneys to clarify were such basic points as “the precise relief sought,” why the court has jurisdiction over the dispute, what legal standards apply and whether the former president is seeking an immediate injunction against the government while the legal dispute plays out.
posted by Flunkie at 7:26 PM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
Trump claims he needs White House records back so he can eventually add them to his presidential library, Insider, Lloyd Lee, August 23, 2022:
posted by cenoxo at 7:41 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Donald Trump asked for all documents taken from his Mar-a-Lago home to be returned so that he can give the files back to the National Archives and Records Administration, while also claiming they will be needed again later for his presidential library.The Donald has an ignoble legacy for the ages, true, but methinks he’s planning for an eternal grift and tax dodge beyond the grave.
"This Mar-a-Lago Break-in Search, And Seizure was illegal and unconstitutional, and we are taking all actions necessary to get the documents back, which we would have given to them without the necessity of the despicable raid of my home, so that I can give them to the National Archives until they are required for the Donald J. Trump Presidential Library and Museum," Trump said on Monday in a press release posted on Truth Social….
posted by cenoxo at 7:41 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
lol, his presidential library.
posted by Flunkie at 7:46 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 7:46 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
that reads to me like "WTF? Be specific", not "How can I help you make America great again, Mr. President, sir?"
Chris Hayes on MSNBC was wondering if this is a matter of enabling the delaying tactic. Too soon to tell, ultimately.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:06 PM on August 23, 2022
Chris Hayes on MSNBC was wondering if this is a matter of enabling the delaying tactic. Too soon to tell, ultimately.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:06 PM on August 23, 2022
Donald Trump asked for all documents taken from his Mar-a-Lago home to be returned so that he can give the files back to the National Archives and Records Administration
Wait - wasn't it the National Archives who called for the suit in the first place? So - what is this, "I need you to give them back to me so I can give them back to you"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:12 PM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
Wait - wasn't it the National Archives who called for the suit in the first place? So - what is this, "I need you to give them back to me so I can give them back to you"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:12 PM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
That is Trump being very very Trump.
There's something in there he desperately wants. He keeps asking for the documents back, so there's something in there.
posted by hippybear at 8:20 PM on August 23, 2022 [12 favorites]
There's something in there he desperately wants. He keeps asking for the documents back, so there's something in there.
posted by hippybear at 8:20 PM on August 23, 2022 [12 favorites]
The first presidential library filled with coloring books…
posted by Windopaene at 8:48 PM on August 23, 2022
posted by Windopaene at 8:48 PM on August 23, 2022
There’s something in there he desperately wants. He keeps asking for the documents back, so there’s something in there.
I don’t disagree exactly, but I do wonder if the idea that there’s “something” is a bit too perfect, a bit too smoking gun (although that would, I suppose, fit Josh Marshall’s “Trump’s Razor” theory). Rather, I imagine there’s a number of things that could be valuable to different people, and he wants to claw back as much as he can. There’s no one document with the nuclear codes, just a lot of facts about nuke programs, etc.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:01 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don’t disagree exactly, but I do wonder if the idea that there’s “something” is a bit too perfect, a bit too smoking gun (although that would, I suppose, fit Josh Marshall’s “Trump’s Razor” theory). Rather, I imagine there’s a number of things that could be valuable to different people, and he wants to claw back as much as he can. There’s no one document with the nuclear codes, just a lot of facts about nuke programs, etc.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:01 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
And, not to abuse the edit window.
Just grift and covering your ass. “Give it back to me and then I will totally release it. Totally not a crime”
How many of those documents has he already tried to sell?
posted by Windopaene at 9:02 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just grift and covering your ass. “Give it back to me and then I will totally release it. Totally not a crime”
How many of those documents has he already tried to sell?
posted by Windopaene at 9:02 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Why does "this thing" need to be rational? Remember the crap about his school records/ grades. Maybe he's just hiding something that he's actually shameful about, whether that be rational or not to outside observers?
posted by porpoise at 9:12 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by porpoise at 9:12 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
Wait - wasn't it the National Archives who called for the suit in the first place? So - what is this, "I need you to give them back to me so I can give them back to you"?Not exactly. He's asking for the FBI to give them back, not the National Archives. His excuse (well, one of his current excuses) to get them out of the hands of the FBI is so that he can give them to the National Archives.
I want to be clear that I am of the opinion that this is an exceedingly dumb request. Just not quite as dumb as "Give them back to me so that I can give them to you".
posted by Flunkie at 12:44 AM on August 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Dear FBI,
When I was out golfing with the Saudis the other day, I realized my secretary forgot to make copies of my secret documents for my fabulous 45th Presidential Library, Museum, and Casino (coming soon in Las Vegas).
Can I have them back for a few days? I promise to ship them COD UPS Ground to the National Archives when she’s done.*
You can rest assured that I AM and shall ever be the 45th President, the greatest of all Presidents, and I know all USA secrets anyway. Don’t worry: I know how to keep secrets.
MAGA,
Donald J. Trump
45th President of the United States
*P.S. — Can she make an extra set for you? All it will cost is a box of copier paper, a toner cartridge, a nominal $1.00 per copy (700 single-sided pages), and shipping.
posted by cenoxo at 6:16 AM on August 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
When I was out golfing with the Saudis the other day, I realized my secretary forgot to make copies of my secret documents for my fabulous 45th Presidential Library, Museum, and Casino (coming soon in Las Vegas).
Can I have them back for a few days? I promise to ship them COD UPS Ground to the National Archives when she’s done.*
You can rest assured that I AM and shall ever be the 45th President, the greatest of all Presidents, and I know all USA secrets anyway. Don’t worry: I know how to keep secrets.
MAGA,
Donald J. Trump
45th President of the United States
*P.S. — Can she make an extra set for you? All it will cost is a box of copier paper, a toner cartridge, a nominal $1.00 per copy (700 single-sided pages), and shipping.
posted by cenoxo at 6:16 AM on August 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
This is an open and shut case where subject of the investigation has confessed repeatedly in public and in court filings to crimes. It is infuriating that there seems to be no movement towards an arrest.
posted by interogative mood at 6:23 PM on August 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 6:23 PM on August 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
I can't help but think of the time I nearly lost my super basic security clearance and my job when I took a weekend trip to Puerto Rico for a friend's wedding.
The security manager was furious when he'd discovered where I'd been: "This is a major breach. You could lose your clearance over this. The company could face a full clearance review. You have to report any travel to other countries IN ADVANCE." I explained Puerto Rico was part of the US. I didn't even have to use my passport back then. "Did you fly over water? That means you left the US." Sigh.
After about three days of this, someone shared with the security manager the news that no, I hadn't actually left the country and my conduct was fully in line with federal regulations.
I can't believe I got more ferocious and immediate scrutiny about my basic clearance (I wasn't even allowed in the SCIF during construction) than a former president got for toting entire boxes of nuclear secrets to an unsecured luxury hotel.
posted by mochapickle at 7:23 PM on August 24, 2022 [23 favorites]
The security manager was furious when he'd discovered where I'd been: "This is a major breach. You could lose your clearance over this. The company could face a full clearance review. You have to report any travel to other countries IN ADVANCE." I explained Puerto Rico was part of the US. I didn't even have to use my passport back then. "Did you fly over water? That means you left the US." Sigh.
After about three days of this, someone shared with the security manager the news that no, I hadn't actually left the country and my conduct was fully in line with federal regulations.
I can't believe I got more ferocious and immediate scrutiny about my basic clearance (I wasn't even allowed in the SCIF during construction) than a former president got for toting entire boxes of nuclear secrets to an unsecured luxury hotel.
posted by mochapickle at 7:23 PM on August 24, 2022 [23 favorites]
This is an open and shut case where subject of the investigation has confessed repeatedly in public and in court filings to crimes. It is infuriating that there seems to be no movement towards an arrestI understand the desire to be done with him so deeply but this is unrealistic. He’s going to have good lawyers eventually, he gave ⅓ of SCOTUS unearned jobs and another third are ideological allies, some of the legal questions aren’t just unprecedented but far fetched to the point that they previously would have been part of jokes about what stoned law students debate at 3am, and the FBI knows they get exactly one chance to get this right. Federal cases take time but they do happen, as we might recall from all of the “why isn’t anyone charged!?” threads starting on January 7th.
posted by adamsc at 8:26 PM on August 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
He’s going to have good lawyers eventually
I don't think so.
And that means even pro-Trump judges will find it difficult to let him go. But I agree that the FBI will do everything they can to make this case completely water-tight, and one of the ways to do this is just to wait and let Trump and his idiots incriminate themselves even more.
posted by mumimor at 11:02 PM on August 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
I don't think so.
And that means even pro-Trump judges will find it difficult to let him go. But I agree that the FBI will do everything they can to make this case completely water-tight, and one of the ways to do this is just to wait and let Trump and his idiots incriminate themselves even more.
posted by mumimor at 11:02 PM on August 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
The Trump Legal Team’s Inane, Circular Argument for Why He Can Never Be Prosecuted, Jeremy Stahl, Slate, Aug 24, 2022 (condensed version):
Rumor has it they’re working on the afterlife part, too — remember Lenin’s Mausoleum? Imagine the Eternal Trump as a walking, talking, AI-powered, GOP-maintained (donate online now!), 3D hologram in his fabulous DJT 45th Presidential Library, Museum, and Casino.
posted by cenoxo at 3:55 AM on August 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
• Trump is the 45th President and can’t be indicted/prosecuted.Result: President for Life!
• If Trump is (unwisely) indicted/prosecuted, his armed base will start a new Civil War.
• Trump may run for President in 2024 (who knows?), and can’t be indicted/prosecuted.
• After Trump is elected President in 2024 (how can he lose?), he can’t be indicted/prosecuted.
Rumor has it they’re working on the afterlife part, too — remember Lenin’s Mausoleum? Imagine the Eternal Trump as a walking, talking, AI-powered, GOP-maintained (donate online now!), 3D hologram in his fabulous DJT 45th Presidential Library, Museum, and Casino.
posted by cenoxo at 3:55 AM on August 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
The way 45 speaks is like most AI chatbots I have heard -- ignorant and racist.
posted by terrapin at 6:15 AM on August 25, 2022
posted by terrapin at 6:15 AM on August 25, 2022
...Should we make anything of the fact that Trump's attacks on McConnell are increasing and are getting personal?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:18 AM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:18 AM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
You know, I feel like Trump's posts on his own social media platform are all in the service of his own social media platform. That is, who gives a fuck what this guy says? What? You do? And you want to read them first hand? Then you better get yourself over to Truth Social and get the good stuff from the source!
...nah... fuck that guy.
(Simultaneously I hope he eventually puts himself in a position to get right and properly fucked by some vengeful, back-stabbing psycho... like maybe Rand Paul could be convinced that Trump hates Russia or whatever it is that makes his heart go pitter-pat. I summation - could we skip right to the be-headings already?)
posted by From Bklyn at 7:41 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
...nah... fuck that guy.
(Simultaneously I hope he eventually puts himself in a position to get right and properly fucked by some vengeful, back-stabbing psycho... like maybe Rand Paul could be convinced that Trump hates Russia or whatever it is that makes his heart go pitter-pat. I summation - could we skip right to the be-headings already?)
posted by From Bklyn at 7:41 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
You know, I feel like Trump's posts on his own social media platform are all in the service of his own social media platform. [...] ...nah... fuck that guy.
This is the ideal response, but there are far too many people who take him seriously, and I think we've reached a point where we need to stop dismissing them outright and consider how his followers might respond and prepare for that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:37 AM on August 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is the ideal response, but there are far too many people who take him seriously, and I think we've reached a point where we need to stop dismissing them outright and consider how his followers might respond and prepare for that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:37 AM on August 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think we've reached a point where we need to stop dismissing them outright and consider how his followers might respond and prepare for that.
Yes. My note/point is about the fact that I've noticed a couple occasions now where something Trump has said on his social media platform is being quoted and it just feels like advertising for that.
posted by From Bklyn at 9:01 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yes. My note/point is about the fact that I've noticed a couple occasions now where something Trump has said on his social media platform is being quoted and it just feels like advertising for that.
posted by From Bklyn at 9:01 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Nah, I hear ya on that - my only concern is that this is advertising that is carrying unexpected real-life ramifications. ....Well, that and it looks like casting McConnel in a bad light is now on the table and I'm hoping it finally spurs McConnell to be all "fuck him, then".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:04 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:04 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm hoping it finally spurs McConnell to be all "fuck him, then".
Alas, when the leopard horks your face back up, it's not in a state where you can use it anymore.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:40 AM on August 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Alas, when the leopard horks your face back up, it's not in a state where you can use it anymore.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:40 AM on August 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Alas, when the leopard horks your face back up, it's not in a state where you can use it anymore.
Ah - but maybe the smell of fresh meat will attract other leopards who then start chewing up the rest of you, and attacking each other?
Let me cling to my little piece of hope please
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:46 AM on August 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Ah - but maybe the smell of fresh meat will attract other leopards who then start chewing up the rest of you, and attacking each other?
Let me cling to my little piece of hope please
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:46 AM on August 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's too much to hope that Trump and McConnell will somehow destroy each other after devoting their respective careers to destroying other folks. But a gal can dream, and I do.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:18 AM on August 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 11:18 AM on August 25, 2022 [18 favorites]
Interesting article in the Washington Post on some of the differences between a potential prosecution here and prosecuting a President because of the unique status of the President.
The authors seem to have failed to consider how the language of the Espionage Act provides a way around these issues. My understanding it’s protections go beyond the administrative classification of materials to materials that if released would harm the interests of the United States.
posted by interogative mood at 11:28 AM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
The authors seem to have failed to consider how the language of the Espionage Act provides a way around these issues. My understanding it’s protections go beyond the administrative classification of materials to materials that if released would harm the interests of the United States.
posted by interogative mood at 11:28 AM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
The way 45 speaks is like most AI chatbots I have heard -- ignorant and racist.
He learns in a similar way to some simple algorithms, basically wandering around and fiddling with the racism dial until the noise at his rallies goes up, and then leaning into whatever it was that got cheers. (I disagree with this blog post that he's amoral- that's absolutely not the case, he's a deeply malicious racist with a built-in drive to bully, but still fair to cite it)
posted by BungaDunga at 1:41 PM on August 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
He learns in a similar way to some simple algorithms, basically wandering around and fiddling with the racism dial until the noise at his rallies goes up, and then leaning into whatever it was that got cheers. (I disagree with this blog post that he's amoral- that's absolutely not the case, he's a deeply malicious racist with a built-in drive to bully, but still fair to cite it)
posted by BungaDunga at 1:41 PM on August 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
The authors seem to have failed to consider how the language of the Espionage Act provides a way around these issues.
The article doesn't really explain, but my interpretation is that these signed documents that everyone else has are designed to shore up the "intent" part of proving the crime. They're also a ritual designed to sort of formally usher someone into the secret club, thereby solidifying how seriously the new inductee will take their responsibilities.
But I don't think there's any formal bar to establishing intent some other way.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:46 PM on August 25, 2022
The article doesn't really explain, but my interpretation is that these signed documents that everyone else has are designed to shore up the "intent" part of proving the crime. They're also a ritual designed to sort of formally usher someone into the secret club, thereby solidifying how seriously the new inductee will take their responsibilities.
But I don't think there's any formal bar to establishing intent some other way.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:46 PM on August 25, 2022
The espionage act doesn’t actually include security clearances or define classified documents. It isn’t actually contingent on being an employee of the US government. Specifically section D of 18 USC 793.
He got the information legally and as President was entrusted with it. Disclosure of the information would be harmful to national defense. He was no longer legally able to retain it after his term of office expired. He willfully retained it.
posted by interogative mood at 6:53 PM on August 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
He got the information legally and as President was entrusted with it. Disclosure of the information would be harmful to national defense. He was no longer legally able to retain it after his term of office expired. He willfully retained it.
posted by interogative mood at 6:53 PM on August 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Should we make anything of the fact that Trump's attacks on McConnell are increasing and are getting personal?
Maybe, but I'm taking the opposite assumption from it that it might cause McConnell to do something. It's the humiliation fetish Trump has. When he knows someone's firmly in his pocket and can't get out, he humiliates them in public knowing they can't do a damn thing about it. (See also, Pence, Chris Christie, among others)
posted by ctmf at 12:40 AM on August 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Maybe, but I'm taking the opposite assumption from it that it might cause McConnell to do something. It's the humiliation fetish Trump has. When he knows someone's firmly in his pocket and can't get out, he humiliates them in public knowing they can't do a damn thing about it. (See also, Pence, Chris Christie, among others)
posted by ctmf at 12:40 AM on August 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Mitch McConnell (WP bio) has been GOP politicking for a long time. He might know a thing or two about dealing with an overconfident, reckless, self-serving, loose cannon like the Donald (especially if he’s perceived as a liability).
posted by cenoxo at 2:06 AM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by cenoxo at 2:06 AM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
DOJ ordered to release redacted Mar-a-Lago search warrant affidavit, Herb Scribner, Axios, August 25, 2022:
posted by cenoxo at 2:26 AM on August 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart on Thursday ordered for a redacted version of the Mar-a-Lago search warrant affidavit to be released by noon Friday.More in the article.
The big picture: The affidavit outlined the evidence for the FBI's search at former President Trump's Mar-a-Lago home for classified documents he took with him when he left office.
Details: Judge Bruce Reinhart [ORDER TO UNSEAL pdf] ordered for the affidavit to be unveiled with redactions by noon ET on Friday.
posted by cenoxo at 2:26 AM on August 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
here is a link to the redacted affidavit [pdf], sourced through the CDN thing of my local newspaper which is a part of one of those TownNews.com things
if someone has a better, more permanent link it would probably be good to post that too at some point but here's the thing for now
posted by glonous keming at 9:58 AM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
if someone has a better, more permanent link it would probably be good to post that too at some point but here's the thing for now
posted by glonous keming at 9:58 AM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
TRUMP HAD HUMAN, SIGNALS, AND FISA INTELLIGENCE IN AN INSECURE ROOM AT MAR-A-LAGO FOR A YEAR
emptywheel is still fascinated by the obstruction aspect of the raid.
emptywheel is still fascinated by the obstruction aspect of the raid.
In a probable cause paragraph, it explains that there were 15 boxes with classified information at Mar-a-Lago and there was probable cause to believe there were more.posted by kingless at 10:06 AM on August 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
There’s a redacted paragraph that may describe the basis for suspecting obstruction. A later sentence in the probable cause paragraph describes that there likely will be evidence of obstruction at MAL.
The document link. Government website.
posted by njohnson23 at 10:13 AM on August 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 10:13 AM on August 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Wow, today's Redactle is really difficult.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 10:13 AM on August 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 10:13 AM on August 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
Related: CIA Realizes It’s Been Using Black Highlighters All These Years
posted by mochapickle at 10:23 AM on August 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 10:23 AM on August 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
From Daily Kos; Mark Sumner, Daily Kos Staff; Friday August 26, 2022:
posted by cenoxo at 10:28 AM on August 26, 2022
• The execution order unsealing the affidavit can be found here.Details in the article.
• The letter from the DOJ explaining the reasoning behind redactions is here.
• The heavily redacted list of requested redactions is here.
• And finally, the affidavit itself is here.
And that affidavit wastes no time in making clear that this is a serious matter…
posted by cenoxo at 10:28 AM on August 26, 2022
Daily Kos (re the affidavit): …throughout the document, Trump is labeled “FPOTUS,” a term you just know he’s going to hate.
But many more will love it.
posted by cenoxo at 10:42 AM on August 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
But many more will love it.
posted by cenoxo at 10:42 AM on August 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
The House GOP react with a Rickroll (how is the real life?).
posted by mazola at 11:08 AM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mazola at 11:08 AM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
“FBI Requested Affidavit Reaction”, Daryl Cagle, cartoonist.
posted by cenoxo at 11:14 AM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by cenoxo at 11:14 AM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
The new data today is:
- Lots of different classification markings including stuff marked not for foreign distribution.
- Trump’s hand written notes are on some of the documents. These note might be subject to executive privilege, but the existence of his handwritten notes on a document puts the document in his hands.
- Trump’s lawyers response suggests they are going to use two defenses — first the President is exempt from the Espionage act since he has absolute power to determine what is vital to national defense. Second that the records are his personal property, not Presidential records. And even if they are not; his belief that they were means he had no criminal intent and therefore didn’t commit a crime.
If he thought they were his personal property and that his absolute power to declassify materials allowed him to declassify them in his mind, without communicating; has he committed a crime.
When Classified materials were found in Hillary Clinton’s private email she was able to escape prosecution because of the intent issue. The documents on her email server did not have classified markings and the documents were sent to her. She also made a claim that she had handed over all official records from the private email server; and later it was determined that some of the things she hadn’t handed over should have been considered official records.
I think the DOJ will need to consider these factors before moving forward. I’m not saying they are necessarily the same thing. Nothing Hillary had was marked classified. Since email isn’t a secure system no one was disposed to send her classified information via email, so she could reasonable argue that she didn’t intend to receive or possess it. Trump can’t make that exact argument because everything is marked as classified. Is the act of transferring the documents to his private home, enough to declassify them and does that ability to keep them declassified end when he isn’t President anymore.
posted by interogative mood at 11:18 AM on August 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
- Lots of different classification markings including stuff marked not for foreign distribution.
- Trump’s hand written notes are on some of the documents. These note might be subject to executive privilege, but the existence of his handwritten notes on a document puts the document in his hands.
- Trump’s lawyers response suggests they are going to use two defenses — first the President is exempt from the Espionage act since he has absolute power to determine what is vital to national defense. Second that the records are his personal property, not Presidential records. And even if they are not; his belief that they were means he had no criminal intent and therefore didn’t commit a crime.
If he thought they were his personal property and that his absolute power to declassify materials allowed him to declassify them in his mind, without communicating; has he committed a crime.
When Classified materials were found in Hillary Clinton’s private email she was able to escape prosecution because of the intent issue. The documents on her email server did not have classified markings and the documents were sent to her. She also made a claim that she had handed over all official records from the private email server; and later it was determined that some of the things she hadn’t handed over should have been considered official records.
I think the DOJ will need to consider these factors before moving forward. I’m not saying they are necessarily the same thing. Nothing Hillary had was marked classified. Since email isn’t a secure system no one was disposed to send her classified information via email, so she could reasonable argue that she didn’t intend to receive or possess it. Trump can’t make that exact argument because everything is marked as classified. Is the act of transferring the documents to his private home, enough to declassify them and does that ability to keep them declassified end when he isn’t President anymore.
posted by interogative mood at 11:18 AM on August 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Second that the records are his personal property, not Presidential records.
Long time ago, before the Internet was really a thing, I was hanging out with a friend in the S2 (intelligence and security) shop of my brigade. He had a bunch of classification stickers on his desk, because that's what they did there. I picked up a pack and joked that he should put one on his trunk just in case he had to take anything home.
His response: "[Etrigan], let me perfectly clear here. If you put one of these stickers on something that is not already government property, [a two star-general] will have to fly down here from DC to peel it off, and I am legally authorized to shoot anyone who tries to move it until that happens."
He was only partially kidding. There is no "personal property" with a classification marking on it. That's kind of the point of them.
posted by Etrigan at 11:24 AM on August 26, 2022 [26 favorites]
Long time ago, before the Internet was really a thing, I was hanging out with a friend in the S2 (intelligence and security) shop of my brigade. He had a bunch of classification stickers on his desk, because that's what they did there. I picked up a pack and joked that he should put one on his trunk just in case he had to take anything home.
His response: "[Etrigan], let me perfectly clear here. If you put one of these stickers on something that is not already government property, [a two star-general] will have to fly down here from DC to peel it off, and I am legally authorized to shoot anyone who tries to move it until that happens."
He was only partially kidding. There is no "personal property" with a classification marking on it. That's kind of the point of them.
posted by Etrigan at 11:24 AM on August 26, 2022 [26 favorites]
Second that the records are his personal property, not Presidential records.
When we had a better Supreme Court, it rejected that argument about the Nixon tapes. Not much later Nixon resigned.
posted by Gelatin at 11:35 AM on August 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
When we had a better Supreme Court, it rejected that argument about the Nixon tapes. Not much later Nixon resigned.
posted by Gelatin at 11:35 AM on August 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I just don't see how "he didn't mean it" or "he didn't understand" or "nobody was hurt" or even "the MAGA folks will lose their shit and try to hurt additional government officials" is going to stop this train. Won't pretend I know where the train is headed but I don't think 45 will squeak by completely untouched this time. So many things that should have been over the line and would have been over the line for virtually anyone else went unpunished. I cannot see that happening in this case. This much more straightforward than the January 6 criming and also, like January 6, too big to ignore.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:39 AM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 11:39 AM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Judicial Watch vs. National Archives 2012 suggests that the President has the power to designate things as personal property. In this case Judicial Watch sued to force the national archives to declare audio tapes recorded by Bill Clinton and his Biographer as Presidential records and obtain them from Clinton where they would then be subject to a FIOA request.
Judicial Watch's founder has been advising Trump and has pointed to this case as precedent.
posted by interogative mood at 12:13 PM on August 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Judicial Watch's founder has been advising Trump and has pointed to this case as precedent.
posted by interogative mood at 12:13 PM on August 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
If there happen to be a bunch of cassette tapes lying around from interviews with Trump or home movies or something, I imagine Trump could make an excellent claim that they were personal property. But as even we non-attorneys now know, there were a bunch of various levels of restricted-access and secret documents lying around in a storage space (and possibly elsewhere, I cannot recall) that A. He wasn't supposed to have, B. He apparently shared with others, and C. Were not secured according to the requirements. The DOJ reportedly had to ask for the documents to be "secured" twice, and the second time resulted in a lock being put on the door to a storage room. That is not how secured is defined in law, according to Marcy Wheeler.
As Wheeler noted on August 15, 2022, Here are all the ways that 18 USC 793 of the Espionage Act add to someone’s liability if they share classified information with people not entitled to receive it,
(d)Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or
(e)Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or
(f)Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(g) If two or more persons conspire to violate any of the foregoing provisions of this section, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy. [my emphasis]
Note, I included 18 USC 793d, but I think that under the Presidential Records Act, Trump no longer had authorization to store those documents. I included it because, if Trump pushed the point, he could be charged under that statute instead of 793e.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:40 PM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
As Wheeler noted on August 15, 2022, Here are all the ways that 18 USC 793 of the Espionage Act add to someone’s liability if they share classified information with people not entitled to receive it,
(d)Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or
(e)Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or
(f)Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(g) If two or more persons conspire to violate any of the foregoing provisions of this section, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy. [my emphasis]
Note, I included 18 USC 793d, but I think that under the Presidential Records Act, Trump no longer had authorization to store those documents. I included it because, if Trump pushed the point, he could be charged under that statute instead of 793e.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:40 PM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Amusingly, FPOTUS ranted about how "the released affidavit never mentioned 'nuclear!'' was proof that this was all a Witch Hunt[tm], while staring at massive sections of it that were, you know, redacted for national security reasons and just might contain that nigh-upon-magical word.
But this is the next obvious gambit: to demand the unredacted version of a document that they know very well cannot be released in unredacted format without dispersing to the world some of the same sensitive information that they seek to protect by recovering these files.
"You're HIDING SOMETHING!" Well, yes, that is the entire point of the exercise -- that the United States wanted to hide many things in secure places and a certain blob prevented that.
posted by delfin at 1:16 PM on August 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
But this is the next obvious gambit: to demand the unredacted version of a document that they know very well cannot be released in unredacted format without dispersing to the world some of the same sensitive information that they seek to protect by recovering these files.
"You're HIDING SOMETHING!" Well, yes, that is the entire point of the exercise -- that the United States wanted to hide many things in secure places and a certain blob prevented that.
posted by delfin at 1:16 PM on August 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
The NY Times has an annotated version of the Affidavit providing explanations and context of the key elements made public today.
posted by interogative mood at 2:38 PM on August 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 2:38 PM on August 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also included in the list was information about the “President of France".See, this makes more sense. He collected documents that were important to him, never mind if they were classified or not.
I mean, if we're going by what makes sense, for every file he kept on Macron, he kept twenty about himself. And some nuclear secrets for show and tell day I guess.
posted by pwnguin at 5:23 PM on August 26, 2022
So, today's "emergency episode" of Mary Trump's podcast is a pretty good 1h10m of discussion about The Affidavit. Feels like clear analysis to me.
posted by hippybear at 6:10 PM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:10 PM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Newsweek: Affidavit gives DOJ enough to indict Donald Trump, Alan Dershowitz says
Donald Trump's former attorney Alan Dershowitz said that the unsealed affidavit supporting the FBI's search of Mar-a-Lago gives the Justice Department enough evidence to indict the former president.posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:16 PM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
In an interview with Newsweek, Dershowitz said, "It sounds like there would be enough for an indictment, but like probable cause, an indictment is easy to get," explaining that prosecutors could simply point to the materials found at Trump's residence that he had unlawful access to.
Letters from an American August 26, 2022. Heather Cox Richardson
The Department of Justice (DOJ) today released the redacted affidavit that persuaded a judge to agree to issue a search warrant for FBI agents to look for classified documents at Mar-a-Lago, the property owned by the Trump Organization in Florida.
It was bad.
The affidavit explained to the judge the history behind the FBI’s request.
On February 9, 2022, the National Archives and Records Administration (what did I say about archivists?) told the DOJ that after seven months of negotiations, on January 18 it had received 15 boxes of material that former president Trump had held at Mar-a-Lago. Those boxes contained “highly classified documents,” including some at the very most secret level of our intelligence: those involving our spies and informants.
In those initial 15 boxes, FBI personnel found 184 classified documents. Sixty-seven were labeled CONFIDENTIAL, 92 were SECRET, 25 were TOP SECRET. Some were marked SCS, FISA, ORCON, NOFORN, and SI, the very highest levels of security, involving human intelligence, foreign surveillance, intelligence that cannot be shared with foreign governments, and intelligence that is compartmented to make sure no one has full knowledge of what is in it. The former president had made notes on “several” of the documents.
On June 8, 2022, a DOJ lawyer wrote to Trump’s lawyer to reiterate that Mar-a-Lago was not authorized to store classified information, and warned that the documents were not being handled properly. The DOJ lawyer asked that the material be secured in a single room at Mar-a-Lago “in their current condition until further notice.”
Trump’s lawyers told the DOJ that presidents have the absolute authority to declassify documents—this is not true, by the way—but did not assert he had done so.
The FBI opened a criminal investigation “to, among other things,” figure out how the classified records were taken from the White House and ended up at Mar-a-Lago, and to determine if other classified records might have been improperly taken and stored, and to figure out who might have taken and mishandled them.
They concluded that there was good reason to think that more classified records remained at Mar-a-Lago and that investigators would find evidence that Trump and his allies were obstructing the government’s effort to recover the material. The person who made the affidavit said they were a special agent with the FBI, “familiar with efforts used to unlawfully collect, retain, and disseminate sensitive government information, including classified N[ational] D[efense] I[nformation].” They swore that “there is probable cause to believe” that locations at Mar-a-Lago “contain evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or other items illegally possessed.”
The affidavit confirmed that the Department of Justice is “conducting a criminal investigation concerning the improper removal and storage of classified information in unauthorized spaces, as well as the unlawful concealment or removal of government records,” and asked for the affidavit to be sealed because “the items and information to be seized are relevant to an ongoing investigation and the FBI has not yet identified all potential criminal confederates nor located all evidence related to its investigation.”
Sidestepping Trump’s insistence that he could declassify whatever he wished when president, the affidavit specifies that the documents could cause damage even if they are not classified, and it notes that retaining “information related to the national defense” is illegal.
The information that Trump stole classified documents itself was eye-popping, and then that he refused to return them was astonishing. Now, the knowledge of the extent of it, and that it included information from our human sources, is stunning.
AND THIS WAS JUST THE AFFIDAVIT TO GET A SEARCH WARRANT TO GET MORE RETAINED DOCUMENTS… which the FBI did on August 8.
We still don’t know what was in those more recently recovered boxes.
Trump is in serious trouble…and so are the rest of us. This stolen and mishandled classified intelligence compromises our security. The best-case scenario is that it was never seen by anyone who knew what they were looking at. Even that would mean that our allies have every reason to be leery about sharing information with us again.
But that’s the best-case scenario. We have to wonder, who else now knows the secrets designed to keep Americans safe? Multiple news stories during Trump’s presidency noted that even then, Mar-a-Lago was notoriously insecure. And, unthinkable though it should be but sadly is not, what if secret documents have already been given or sold into the hands of foreign actors whose interests conflict with ours?
I have been writing today about Trump’s first impeachment and the hearings where Marie Yovanovitch, Fiona Hill, and Alexander Vindman, immigrants all, who served our nation faithfully and fully, risked—and ultimately lost—their jobs to warn us that Trump was willing to compromise our national security for his own interests.
“He has betrayed our national security, and he will do so again,” House impeachment manager Adam Schiff warned the Senate. “You can’t trust [Trump] to do the right thing. Not for one minute, not for one election, not for the sake of our country. You just can’t. He will not change and you know it.” Schiff begged them to say “enough.”
But they would not, and they did not, and here we are.
posted by Glinn at 8:49 PM on August 26, 2022 [24 favorites]
It was bad.
The affidavit explained to the judge the history behind the FBI’s request.
On February 9, 2022, the National Archives and Records Administration (what did I say about archivists?) told the DOJ that after seven months of negotiations, on January 18 it had received 15 boxes of material that former president Trump had held at Mar-a-Lago. Those boxes contained “highly classified documents,” including some at the very most secret level of our intelligence: those involving our spies and informants.
In those initial 15 boxes, FBI personnel found 184 classified documents. Sixty-seven were labeled CONFIDENTIAL, 92 were SECRET, 25 were TOP SECRET. Some were marked SCS, FISA, ORCON, NOFORN, and SI, the very highest levels of security, involving human intelligence, foreign surveillance, intelligence that cannot be shared with foreign governments, and intelligence that is compartmented to make sure no one has full knowledge of what is in it. The former president had made notes on “several” of the documents.
On June 8, 2022, a DOJ lawyer wrote to Trump’s lawyer to reiterate that Mar-a-Lago was not authorized to store classified information, and warned that the documents were not being handled properly. The DOJ lawyer asked that the material be secured in a single room at Mar-a-Lago “in their current condition until further notice.”
Trump’s lawyers told the DOJ that presidents have the absolute authority to declassify documents—this is not true, by the way—but did not assert he had done so.
The FBI opened a criminal investigation “to, among other things,” figure out how the classified records were taken from the White House and ended up at Mar-a-Lago, and to determine if other classified records might have been improperly taken and stored, and to figure out who might have taken and mishandled them.
They concluded that there was good reason to think that more classified records remained at Mar-a-Lago and that investigators would find evidence that Trump and his allies were obstructing the government’s effort to recover the material. The person who made the affidavit said they were a special agent with the FBI, “familiar with efforts used to unlawfully collect, retain, and disseminate sensitive government information, including classified N[ational] D[efense] I[nformation].” They swore that “there is probable cause to believe” that locations at Mar-a-Lago “contain evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or other items illegally possessed.”
The affidavit confirmed that the Department of Justice is “conducting a criminal investigation concerning the improper removal and storage of classified information in unauthorized spaces, as well as the unlawful concealment or removal of government records,” and asked for the affidavit to be sealed because “the items and information to be seized are relevant to an ongoing investigation and the FBI has not yet identified all potential criminal confederates nor located all evidence related to its investigation.”
Sidestepping Trump’s insistence that he could declassify whatever he wished when president, the affidavit specifies that the documents could cause damage even if they are not classified, and it notes that retaining “information related to the national defense” is illegal.
The information that Trump stole classified documents itself was eye-popping, and then that he refused to return them was astonishing. Now, the knowledge of the extent of it, and that it included information from our human sources, is stunning.
AND THIS WAS JUST THE AFFIDAVIT TO GET A SEARCH WARRANT TO GET MORE RETAINED DOCUMENTS… which the FBI did on August 8.
We still don’t know what was in those more recently recovered boxes.
Trump is in serious trouble…and so are the rest of us. This stolen and mishandled classified intelligence compromises our security. The best-case scenario is that it was never seen by anyone who knew what they were looking at. Even that would mean that our allies have every reason to be leery about sharing information with us again.
But that’s the best-case scenario. We have to wonder, who else now knows the secrets designed to keep Americans safe? Multiple news stories during Trump’s presidency noted that even then, Mar-a-Lago was notoriously insecure. And, unthinkable though it should be but sadly is not, what if secret documents have already been given or sold into the hands of foreign actors whose interests conflict with ours?
I have been writing today about Trump’s first impeachment and the hearings where Marie Yovanovitch, Fiona Hill, and Alexander Vindman, immigrants all, who served our nation faithfully and fully, risked—and ultimately lost—their jobs to warn us that Trump was willing to compromise our national security for his own interests.
“He has betrayed our national security, and he will do so again,” House impeachment manager Adam Schiff warned the Senate. “You can’t trust [Trump] to do the right thing. Not for one minute, not for one election, not for the sake of our country. You just can’t. He will not change and you know it.” Schiff begged them to say “enough.”
But they would not, and they did not, and here we are.
posted by Glinn at 8:49 PM on August 26, 2022 [24 favorites]
hippybear > …today's "emergency episode" of Mary Trump's podcast is a pretty good 1h10m of discussion about The Affidavit. Feels like clear analysis to me.
Dahlia Lithwick*’s comments (starting ~23:25) about Trump’s knee-jerk ‘toddler self-defense’ of his self-claimed imperial presidential powers are funny and frightening at the same time. Nobody else can have MY DOCUMENTS because they’re MINE, waaah!
*WP bio
posted by cenoxo at 9:56 PM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Dahlia Lithwick*’s comments (starting ~23:25) about Trump’s knee-jerk ‘toddler self-defense’ of his self-claimed imperial presidential powers are funny and frightening at the same time. Nobody else can have MY DOCUMENTS because they’re MINE, waaah!
*WP bio
posted by cenoxo at 9:56 PM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Added links to a couple of comments above quoting Heather Cox Richardson; be sure to link to your sources (except in instances where the original is from a hate site or similar). Thanks!
posted by taz (staff) at 10:17 PM on August 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 10:17 PM on August 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
In the Newsweek article alleged child rapist Alan Dershowitz went on to suggest that for the DOJ to prosecute it would have to meet the Nixon standard of an airtight and serious case. He also made the claim that the DOJ redacted information that could be beneficial to Trump and cherry picked what they would release to make it appear more damming. He’s in full cope mode. Next he’ll be explaining that this has all been a feint.
posted by interogative mood at 10:51 PM on August 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:51 PM on August 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
In The New Yorker, David Rohde warns us to be patient. It is worth reading the entire comment, which is not that long. Here's an excerpt:
Stephen Gillers, a professor of legal ethics at New York University, cautioned me that a successful prosecution of Trump would likely need to demonstrate that his reckless handling of classified information caused actual harm—such as adversaries learning about American intelligence methods. Trump’s lawyers would argue that he was merely guilty of carelessness. Trump himself, of course, would make the case that he was being politically persecuted. “I don’t think a jury would convict him without proof of harm. I’m not sure I would,” Gillers said. “He’s a sloppy guy, and he couldn’t let go of the Oval Office, so he dumped a lot of stuff into boxes—souvenirs of his Presidency.”
Gillers added that, fairly or unfairly, prosecuting a former President requires meeting a higher legal and political threshold. ... The former President’s response to the Mar-a-Lago search shows that he is as dangerous and unrepentant as ever. But the emergence of a Trump-prosecution syndrome is also something to guard against. The criminal-justice system is a blunt instrument that is not well suited for resolving the country’s political conflicts. A rushed prosecution that results in an acquittal would only strengthen the former President. The judicial process can be maddeningly slow. The best option for Trump’s opponents is to wait and trust—prosecutors, judges, jurors, and voters—the very system that Trump is trying to subvert.
posted by Bella Donna at 6:09 AM on August 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Stephen Gillers, a professor of legal ethics at New York University, cautioned me that a successful prosecution of Trump would likely need to demonstrate that his reckless handling of classified information caused actual harm—such as adversaries learning about American intelligence methods. Trump’s lawyers would argue that he was merely guilty of carelessness. Trump himself, of course, would make the case that he was being politically persecuted. “I don’t think a jury would convict him without proof of harm. I’m not sure I would,” Gillers said. “He’s a sloppy guy, and he couldn’t let go of the Oval Office, so he dumped a lot of stuff into boxes—souvenirs of his Presidency.”
Gillers added that, fairly or unfairly, prosecuting a former President requires meeting a higher legal and political threshold. ... The former President’s response to the Mar-a-Lago search shows that he is as dangerous and unrepentant as ever. But the emergence of a Trump-prosecution syndrome is also something to guard against. The criminal-justice system is a blunt instrument that is not well suited for resolving the country’s political conflicts. A rushed prosecution that results in an acquittal would only strengthen the former President. The judicial process can be maddeningly slow. The best option for Trump’s opponents is to wait and trust—prosecutors, judges, jurors, and voters—the very system that Trump is trying to subvert.
posted by Bella Donna at 6:09 AM on August 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
(okay no shade to you ofc Bella Donna but I gotta say this about that new yorker article, plz don't take anything here personally)
Sorry but what the actual fuck is David Rhode on about in that article?
The title and subtitle are:
The Dangers of Trump-Prosecution Syndrome
The evidence that the former President mishandled classified documents is growing, but the legal process can’t be rushed.
This frankly bonkers clickbait cringe meme headline is then followed by 7 of the 10 grafs in the article that are essentially a summary of the heinous shit that Trump probably did regarding these docs and has nothing to do with the clickbait.
Then graf 8 and 9 provide some quotes from Stephen Gillers (a professor of legal ethics at New York University) and an unnamed former Justice Department official that both suggest that our regular ole legal system and evidentiary requirements are somehow insufficient to prosecute Trump. Which is bullshit, of course, though there sure do seem to be a lot of people in power invested in manufacturing that narrative!
AND LASTLY we have graf 10 in which David Rhodes attempts to justify his shitty clickbait headline (emphasis mine):
1. Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) was ALWAYS used "mockingly" by Republicans, not sometimes, and was actually not about mocking anyone but about gaslighting everyone not in Trump's camp that they were the crazy ones, not the batshit insane chucklefuck in the Oval. TDS is nothing but a rightwing talking point and gaslighting propaganda.
2. Trying to make a new meme out of "Trump-prosecution syndrome" is hacky bullshit, especially given that it's NOT A THING so saying that we must somehow be preventatively concerned about it and "guard against" the emergence of a thing that is not real is just rightwing water carrying.
3. "The criminal-justice system is a blunt instrument that is not well suited for resolving the country’s political conflicts." TRUMP STEALING CLASSIFIED INTELLIGENCE DOCUMENTS AND REFUSING TO RETURN THEM FOR MONTHS IS NOT A "POLITICAL CONFLICT" IT IS A CRIMINAL CRIME DAVID. SO ARE THE 1,000 OTHER ACTUAL CRIMES THE DUDE HAS GOTTEN AWAY WITH.
4. The patronizing "the judicial process can be maddeningly slow" and "a rushed prosecution will only strengthen (?????) the former President" and "wait and trust" just oozes slime.
5. What exactly does David Rhode think that liberals / leftists who are NOT going to just wait and let the system work are going to do? What is he implying? Oh, some non-sequitur garbage that actually means nothing (save a vague allusion towards left wing violence?) and only serves as a rhetorical device to try and justify the existence of this article in the first place? Cool cool cool.
I swear to god the last graf of that article killed 1% of my remaining neurons. David Rhode please just stop. If you have nothing but a summary of ongoing events to write, just write that (or don't write anything) instead of bolting on a clickbait headline which rests on a bullshit premise that is only faintly defended by two quotes (one anon) in the closing 2 grafs. What a hack.
posted by lazaruslong at 6:37 AM on August 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Sorry but what the actual fuck is David Rhode on about in that article?
The title and subtitle are:
The Dangers of Trump-Prosecution Syndrome
The evidence that the former President mishandled classified documents is growing, but the legal process can’t be rushed.
This frankly bonkers clickbait cringe meme headline is then followed by 7 of the 10 grafs in the article that are essentially a summary of the heinous shit that Trump probably did regarding these docs and has nothing to do with the clickbait.
Then graf 8 and 9 provide some quotes from Stephen Gillers (a professor of legal ethics at New York University) and an unnamed former Justice Department official that both suggest that our regular ole legal system and evidentiary requirements are somehow insufficient to prosecute Trump. Which is bullshit, of course, though there sure do seem to be a lot of people in power invested in manufacturing that narrative!
AND LASTLY we have graf 10 in which David Rhodes attempts to justify his shitty clickbait headline (emphasis mine):
The prospect of Trump yet again avoiding consequences for his actions is distressing. During the Trump Presidency, Republicans, sometimes mockingly, accused liberals of suffering from “Trump Derangement Syndrome,” or what they claimed was an exaggerated fear or hatred of Trump. In the wake of January 6th, dread about Trump has understandably intensified. The former President’s response to the Mar-a-Lago search shows that he is as dangerous and unrepentant as ever. But the emergence of a Trump-prosecution syndrome is also something to guard against. The criminal-justice system is a blunt instrument that is not well suited for resolving the country’s political conflicts. A rushed prosecution that results in an acquittal would only strengthen the former President. The judicial process can be maddeningly slow. The best option for Trump’s opponents is to wait and trust—prosecutors, judges, jurors, and voters—the very system that Trump is trying to subvert.WOW what a fucking paragraph.
1. Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) was ALWAYS used "mockingly" by Republicans, not sometimes, and was actually not about mocking anyone but about gaslighting everyone not in Trump's camp that they were the crazy ones, not the batshit insane chucklefuck in the Oval. TDS is nothing but a rightwing talking point and gaslighting propaganda.
2. Trying to make a new meme out of "Trump-prosecution syndrome" is hacky bullshit, especially given that it's NOT A THING so saying that we must somehow be preventatively concerned about it and "guard against" the emergence of a thing that is not real is just rightwing water carrying.
3. "The criminal-justice system is a blunt instrument that is not well suited for resolving the country’s political conflicts." TRUMP STEALING CLASSIFIED INTELLIGENCE DOCUMENTS AND REFUSING TO RETURN THEM FOR MONTHS IS NOT A "POLITICAL CONFLICT" IT IS A CRIMINAL CRIME DAVID. SO ARE THE 1,000 OTHER ACTUAL CRIMES THE DUDE HAS GOTTEN AWAY WITH.
4. The patronizing "the judicial process can be maddeningly slow" and "a rushed prosecution will only strengthen (?????) the former President" and "wait and trust" just oozes slime.
5. What exactly does David Rhode think that liberals / leftists who are NOT going to just wait and let the system work are going to do? What is he implying? Oh, some non-sequitur garbage that actually means nothing (save a vague allusion towards left wing violence?) and only serves as a rhetorical device to try and justify the existence of this article in the first place? Cool cool cool.
I swear to god the last graf of that article killed 1% of my remaining neurons. David Rhode please just stop. If you have nothing but a summary of ongoing events to write, just write that (or don't write anything) instead of bolting on a clickbait headline which rests on a bullshit premise that is only faintly defended by two quotes (one anon) in the closing 2 grafs. What a hack.
posted by lazaruslong at 6:37 AM on August 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Trump’s lawyers would argue that he was merely guilty of carelessness. [...] “He’s a sloppy guy [...]"vs.
fairly or unfairly, prosecuting a former President requires meeting a higher legal and political threshold.I know there are legal precedents about special considerations that do and don't apply in prosecuting political figures. Are there legal precedents about special responsibilities that apply when you're a political figure?
Because it's not okay for carelessness to be an accepted excuse when you're holding a position where carelessness can have extreme consequences. Not being sloppy should be treated as a non-negotiable part of the job of being President. It seems like an invitation to abuse to maintain a special high bar for prosecuting people with power, without maintaining a special high bar for the responsibilities that come with it.
posted by trig at 7:05 AM on August 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
Trump’s lawyers would argue that he was merely guilty of carelessness. [...] “He’s a sloppy guy [...]"
We have already, upthread for MeFites, in regular MSM for others, seen lots of clear testimony that the president's legal advisors (the two Pats) warned him against this and tried to retrieve the documents to the archives. The carelessness argument will only hold in court if the Judge is a MAGA-hat, and what we have seen until now (with all Trumps election fraud cases) that while the right-wing judges are very keen on taking down civil rights and human rights, they are not loyal to Trump. They care about harming women, people of color and LGBT+ people. They don't give a shit about Trump.
posted by mumimor at 7:19 AM on August 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
We have already, upthread for MeFites, in regular MSM for others, seen lots of clear testimony that the president's legal advisors (the two Pats) warned him against this and tried to retrieve the documents to the archives. The carelessness argument will only hold in court if the Judge is a MAGA-hat, and what we have seen until now (with all Trumps election fraud cases) that while the right-wing judges are very keen on taking down civil rights and human rights, they are not loyal to Trump. They care about harming women, people of color and LGBT+ people. They don't give a shit about Trump.
posted by mumimor at 7:19 AM on August 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
Schroedinger’s TPS: a less than perfect prosecutorial case against Trump will only strengthen him(*), while the Republicans can successfully use the mere announcement of an investigation against their political enemies to successfully smear and harm them.
(* The polling/political results so far of the January 6 Committee Hearings seems to provide evidence that this is not the case, but those promoting Schroedinger’s TPS live in a different world than the rest of us, apparently.)
posted by eviemath at 7:46 AM on August 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
(* The polling/political results so far of the January 6 Committee Hearings seems to provide evidence that this is not the case, but those promoting Schroedinger’s TPS live in a different world than the rest of us, apparently.)
posted by eviemath at 7:46 AM on August 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
lazaruslong, absolutely not taking your comments personally. I rolled my eyes at that headline, which was probably written by the copydesk and not by the writer. It is absolutely bullshit either way, I do not disagree. I appreciate your calling it out! Like, we should be patient and also, WTF?
posted by Bella Donna at 7:49 AM on August 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 7:49 AM on August 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Earlier this week: Truth Social gets tens of thousands of new users after MAL raid
More recently: Truth Social trademark application denied, finances may be in significant disarray, facing financial fallout, facing financial peril.
In other Truth Social news, there's still no Android version.
posted by box at 8:37 AM on August 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
More recently: Truth Social trademark application denied, finances may be in significant disarray, facing financial fallout, facing financial peril.
In other Truth Social news, there's still no Android version.
posted by box at 8:37 AM on August 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
"The Failing Truth Social" even has a fitting double entendre there
posted by trig at 9:02 AM on August 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by trig at 9:02 AM on August 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
From The Guardian: A second foreign national is being investigated by US authorities for gaining access to Mar-a-Lago, Donald Trump’s Florida resort which is at the center of an FBI probe over missing classified documents, heightening fears over security lapses both during and after his presidency.
According to an article from the Organized Crime & Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP), a Ukrainian woman posing as a member of the Rothschild banking dynasty is under bureau investigation after infiltrating the private members club under a false pretense.
...On Saturday, Congress members Adam Schiff and Carolyn Maloney – respectively, the chairpersons for the House intelligence and oversight committees – said that the US intelligence director, Avril Haines, had confirmed that her subordinates, along with the Justice Department, would evaluate whether the improper storage of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago had risked or caused any damage to national security.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:59 PM on August 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
According to an article from the Organized Crime & Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP), a Ukrainian woman posing as a member of the Rothschild banking dynasty is under bureau investigation after infiltrating the private members club under a false pretense.
...On Saturday, Congress members Adam Schiff and Carolyn Maloney – respectively, the chairpersons for the House intelligence and oversight committees – said that the US intelligence director, Avril Haines, had confirmed that her subordinates, along with the Justice Department, would evaluate whether the improper storage of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago had risked or caused any damage to national security.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:59 PM on August 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
So we had fun with Affidavit Day. Now let's do a Thread of what we learned, and where we now stand, on the largest espionage case in US history, in fact Trump's theft of US secrets is one of largest in world, of all time
posted by acb at 2:17 PM on August 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by acb at 2:17 PM on August 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
What's interesting to me is that in the letter annexed to the Affidavit, Trump's lawyer said the documents had been removed 'unknowingly' from the White House. If we are to believe that it was a genuine mistake (which would be stretching credulity to its breaking point), then once Trump knew that somehow, inadvertently, classified documents had found their way into his boxes of personal stuff and were mistakenly removed from the White House, they should all have been returned immediately, no argument.
So even if we give Trump the most generous benefit of the doubt, once he did know about them but still didn't return them, then he's committed the offence right there, no defence to it.
posted by essexjan at 2:55 PM on August 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
So even if we give Trump the most generous benefit of the doubt, once he did know about them but still didn't return them, then he's committed the offence right there, no defence to it.
posted by essexjan at 2:55 PM on August 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
The DOJ will consider if they can get a conviction from a jury before they can bring Trump to trial. They won’t be confident of a successful prosecution unless there is more recognition by Republicans of Trump’s crimes.
posted by interogative mood at 3:23 PM on August 27, 2022
posted by interogative mood at 3:23 PM on August 27, 2022
I may not have been paying enough attention, but was there a copy machine at MAL?
posted by njohnson23 at 3:31 PM on August 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 3:31 PM on August 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
There is a not-insignificant number of people on Twitter who are now saying that "um....we also saw pictures of big banker-boxes of stuff like the ones at Mar-a-Lago being carried into Trump Tower. Shouldn't we maybe search there too?"
If they do - I really can't make up my mind whether I want Tish James to be involved (sheerly for the "fuck you" aspect), or whether I want her to stay clear out of some kind of malicious compliance so Trump can't say "there Tish goes again, she's clearly got an agenda" about it all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:09 PM on August 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
If they do - I really can't make up my mind whether I want Tish James to be involved (sheerly for the "fuck you" aspect), or whether I want her to stay clear out of some kind of malicious compliance so Trump can't say "there Tish goes again, she's clearly got an agenda" about it all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:09 PM on August 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Of course we should search Trump Tower.
And Bedminster, and Turnberry, and every country club, clubhouse, yacht club, boathouse, and houseboat that guy set foot on between the escalator ride and last week.
posted by box at 4:23 PM on August 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
And Bedminster, and Turnberry, and every country club, clubhouse, yacht club, boathouse, and houseboat that guy set foot on between the escalator ride and last week.
posted by box at 4:23 PM on August 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
So we had fun with Affidavit Day. Now let's do a Thread of what we learned
Note: thread is very hyperbolic, in a "he's gonna go to jail for a million years" way; and takes a really jarringly racist turn at tweet 35.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:57 PM on August 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Note: thread is very hyperbolic, in a "he's gonna go to jail for a million years" way; and takes a really jarringly racist turn at tweet 35.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:57 PM on August 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Trump-appointed FL judge says we might see a special master.
posted by box at 6:01 PM on August 27, 2022
posted by box at 6:01 PM on August 27, 2022
Isn't it a bit late for all that? They've already had two weeks to go through the documents. Special Master is something you appoint ahead of time to handle all the in-between stuff.
posted by hippybear at 6:08 PM on August 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 6:08 PM on August 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
You don't have to rush delaying tactics.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:10 PM on August 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:10 PM on August 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Isn't it a bit late for all that?
I give it a month before it's an article of faith in the GOP that "The FBI illegally looked through the documents BEFORE they handed them over to the Special Master!"
posted by Etrigan at 7:29 PM on August 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I give it a month before it's an article of faith in the GOP that "The FBI illegally looked through the documents BEFORE they handed them over to the Special Master!"
posted by Etrigan at 7:29 PM on August 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
The DOJ will probably move the whole thing to a different judge, like maybe the FISA court, using some jurisdictional for reasons of national security.
posted by interogative mood at 8:03 PM on August 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 8:03 PM on August 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Intel officials to assess national security fallout from Trump’s Mar-a-Lago documents— Director of National Intelligence Avril Haines confirmed the review in a letter to top lawmakers., Andrew Desiderio & NIcholas Wu, Politico, 08/27/2022:
posted by cenoxo at 3:37 AM on August 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
The U.S. intelligence community will evaluate the potential national security risks stemming from former President Donald Trump’s possession of top-secret documents at his Mar-a-Lago residence, Director of National Intelligence [WP] Avril Haines [WP bio] told top lawmakers.More in the article. FPOTUS is about to get a lesson in how seriously the U.S. government regards intelligence breaches.
In a letter obtained by POLITICO and dated Friday [08/26/2022], Haines told House Oversight Committee Chair Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.) and House Intelligence Committee Chair Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) that her office will lead an “assessment of the potential risk to national security that would result from the disclosure of the relevant documents.”
“The Department of Justice (DOJ) and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) are working together to facilitate a classification review of relevant materials, including those recovered during the search,” Haines wrote, adding that the review will be conducted in a way that “does not unduly interfere with DOJ’s ongoing criminal investigation.”
The correspondence represents the Biden administration’s first known engagement with Congress on the issue of the ongoing investigation ensnaring the former president.
…
The Senate Intelligence Committee has also asked the intelligence community to conduct a damage assessment related to Trump’s handling of the documents, but the inquiry was bipartisan. The panel’s chair, Sen. Mark Warner (D-Va.), and vice chair, Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), both signed onto the request….
posted by cenoxo at 3:37 AM on August 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
We can only hope.
Rubio on the SIC is a bit troublesome, but…
Maybe there is enough pushback from the National Security apparatus to make him behave like an adult, and not a partisan hack.
posted by Windopaene at 8:15 AM on August 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Rubio on the SIC is a bit troublesome, but…
Maybe there is enough pushback from the National Security apparatus to make him behave like an adult, and not a partisan hack.
posted by Windopaene at 8:15 AM on August 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
The best option for Trump’s opponents is to wait and trust—prosecutors, judges, jurors, and voters—the very system that Trump is trying to subvert.
Yeah, I think I'm about wait and trusted out.
We were told to wait and trust the system in 2000 when Gore had the Presidency stolen from him.
We were told to wait and trust the system in 2012 when Trayvonn Martin was murdered.
We were told to wait and trust the system in 2014 when Tamir Rice was murdered by the police.
We were told to wait and trust the system in in 2016 when McConnell stole a Supreme Court seat from us.
We were told to wait and trust the system in 2016 when then FBI Director James Comey successfully abused his position to help elect Trump with lies about Hillary Clinton.
We were told to wait and trust the system in 2017 when Mueller The Savior was going to "investigate" Trump.
We were told to wait and trust the system on Jan 6 2021 when Trump rioters attempted to overthrow our government and install Trump as President-For-Life.
We were told to wait and trust the system when we worried that Roe would be overturned by the new Trump Supreme Court.
We were told to wait and trust the system when we wanted to protest and demanded action from Biden on Roe.
And now, yet again, the wise cocktail circuit DC twerps tell us to wait and trust the system on Trump ever being prosecuted for any of the multitude of crimes he has committed both before, during, and after his Presidency.
No Mr. Rhodes, I will not be waiting and trusting the system.
The system is a sham.
The system is a lie invented by the powerful to keep us quiet and subdued while they abuse us, freely commit crimes that would imprison us, steal our rights, steal our money, and try to turn our nation into a dictatorship.
I have no faith in the system. I have no trust in the system. I have no willingness to wait while, yet again, the system runs out the clock to allow the powerful to escape any penalties and tries to prevent protests and strikes by pretending that it will deliver justice if only were are good little boys and girls who are patient and don't make a fuss or bother our betters with our petty and childish demands for action instead of empty words.
We know that the system produces prosecutions almost instantly when it wants to. We aren't stupid.
So fuck the system. Tear it down. Smash it.
I hope enough people see these calls for calm and trust and faith as the delaying tactic they are and will join the protests and strikes demanding action.
posted by sotonohito at 8:29 AM on August 28, 2022 [19 favorites]
Yeah, I think I'm about wait and trusted out.
We were told to wait and trust the system in 2000 when Gore had the Presidency stolen from him.
We were told to wait and trust the system in 2012 when Trayvonn Martin was murdered.
We were told to wait and trust the system in 2014 when Tamir Rice was murdered by the police.
We were told to wait and trust the system in in 2016 when McConnell stole a Supreme Court seat from us.
We were told to wait and trust the system in 2016 when then FBI Director James Comey successfully abused his position to help elect Trump with lies about Hillary Clinton.
We were told to wait and trust the system in 2017 when Mueller The Savior was going to "investigate" Trump.
We were told to wait and trust the system on Jan 6 2021 when Trump rioters attempted to overthrow our government and install Trump as President-For-Life.
We were told to wait and trust the system when we worried that Roe would be overturned by the new Trump Supreme Court.
We were told to wait and trust the system when we wanted to protest and demanded action from Biden on Roe.
And now, yet again, the wise cocktail circuit DC twerps tell us to wait and trust the system on Trump ever being prosecuted for any of the multitude of crimes he has committed both before, during, and after his Presidency.
No Mr. Rhodes, I will not be waiting and trusting the system.
The system is a sham.
The system is a lie invented by the powerful to keep us quiet and subdued while they abuse us, freely commit crimes that would imprison us, steal our rights, steal our money, and try to turn our nation into a dictatorship.
I have no faith in the system. I have no trust in the system. I have no willingness to wait while, yet again, the system runs out the clock to allow the powerful to escape any penalties and tries to prevent protests and strikes by pretending that it will deliver justice if only were are good little boys and girls who are patient and don't make a fuss or bother our betters with our petty and childish demands for action instead of empty words.
We know that the system produces prosecutions almost instantly when it wants to. We aren't stupid.
So fuck the system. Tear it down. Smash it.
I hope enough people see these calls for calm and trust and faith as the delaying tactic they are and will join the protests and strikes demanding action.
posted by sotonohito at 8:29 AM on August 28, 2022 [19 favorites]
Just a reminder that tearing down the system is a core part of the far right / Trump / fascist game plan. They are eager for the days when they can turn to violence against you and put you back in your place or murder you. Their goal is to frustrate you and make you so angry that you join them in tearing it all down. If you do that you lose any chance of justice.
posted by interogative mood at 10:01 AM on August 28, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:01 AM on August 28, 2022 [12 favorites]
revolution is the opium of the intellectuals
posted by philip-random at 12:10 PM on August 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 12:10 PM on August 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
MSNBC legal analyst and former Federal Prosecutor Cynthia Ochsner says the judge is pandering and there won’t be a special master for the following reasons.
- This isn’t an attorney client privilege case and they’ve cited the wrong statutes
- There is no special master in executive privilege cases
- Any assertion of executive privilege under the Presidential records act must be filed in DC, the judge doesn’t have jurisdiction.
- There is no special master for classified information cases.
- It is very unusual for a judge to announce a ruling before both parties to the case have responded.
If the judge rules for a special master it will be swiftly appealed and blocked.
posted by interogative mood at 12:30 PM on August 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
- This isn’t an attorney client privilege case and they’ve cited the wrong statutes
- There is no special master in executive privilege cases
- Any assertion of executive privilege under the Presidential records act must be filed in DC, the judge doesn’t have jurisdiction.
- There is no special master for classified information cases.
- It is very unusual for a judge to announce a ruling before both parties to the case have responded.
If the judge rules for a special master it will be swiftly appealed and blocked.
posted by interogative mood at 12:30 PM on August 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
A Lawfare guy on their podcast pointed out that it's pretty insane to assert executive privilege against the executive branch. It's generally asserted against congress. He also said something I didn't know, which is that special masters are appointed by the court for the benefit of the court, not defendants.
His final thought, though, was that attorney-client privilege does apply and the FBI might accept a special master doing something along those lines to neutralize an avenue of attack. If the court says "We're appointing someone to keep things honest," the right answer might well be "Great, our intention is to do everything honestly." But not to do anything Trump wants to do.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 12:43 PM on August 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
His final thought, though, was that attorney-client privilege does apply and the FBI might accept a special master doing something along those lines to neutralize an avenue of attack. If the court says "We're appointing someone to keep things honest," the right answer might well be "Great, our intention is to do everything honestly." But not to do anything Trump wants to do.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 12:43 PM on August 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
So fuck the system. Tear it down. Smash it.
Bob the Angry Flower would like a word. (Really, there needs to be a "People's Revolution: One Hour Later" cartoon. Or maybe a link to Animal Farm will do.)
posted by SPrintF at 12:46 PM on August 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
Bob the Angry Flower would like a word. (Really, there needs to be a "People's Revolution: One Hour Later" cartoon. Or maybe a link to Animal Farm will do.)
posted by SPrintF at 12:46 PM on August 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
A constant stream of lies, disruption, and chaos; guided by ignorant, uninformed gut feelings and knee-jerk “drain the swamp” reactions creates the only environment that Donald Trump thrives in. He must be the center of media churn and public attention.
The usual problem with tearing everything down is that you don’t know who or what will replace it, but in our time Trump remains a serious threat. At least we have a known enemy to deal with.
Using our existing judicial system to expose, prove, and punish his criminality is the best way to handle the Imperial Donald, and provide a historic precedent for all future Presidential hopefuls.
posted by cenoxo at 1:02 PM on August 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
The usual problem with tearing everything down is that you don’t know who or what will replace it, but in our time Trump remains a serious threat. At least we have a known enemy to deal with.
Using our existing judicial system to expose, prove, and punish his criminality is the best way to handle the Imperial Donald, and provide a historic precedent for all future Presidential hopefuls.
posted by cenoxo at 1:02 PM on August 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
If the system working means that 100% of the rich white criminals will get jail time, then yes, the system can never work. But we can at least improve things so that minorities get less screwed by the system, and some rich white guys will get the jail time they deserve.
There are lots of times I feel things are too far gone, we have to tear everything down and start over. But.... If we tear the system down, most of the rich white guys and fascists will still be fine (they are, or have the support of, the heavily armed); the minorities and the powerless will pay the price.
posted by phliar at 1:21 PM on August 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
There are lots of times I feel things are too far gone, we have to tear everything down and start over. But.... If we tear the system down, most of the rich white guys and fascists will still be fine (they are, or have the support of, the heavily armed); the minorities and the powerless will pay the price.
posted by phliar at 1:21 PM on August 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
What Did We Learn from the Mar-a-Lago Search Warrant Affidavit?; Scott R. Anderson, Matt Gluck, Hyemin Han, Tyler McBrien; Lawfare, Saturday, August 27, 2022. After a detailed review and analysis (worth reading), the authors cautiously conclude:
posted by cenoxo at 1:45 PM on August 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
…For those hoping to bring whatever misconduct Trump and his associates may have pursued into the light of day, the unsealed affidavit is almost certain to disappoint. And this disappointment is likely to grow in the coming months, as the stream of information to which observers have become accustomed will likely slow to a trickle. Recent weeks notwithstanding, the Justice Department is still conducting its investigation, something it strongly prefers to do outside of the public’s view, and it has stressed that the investigation is still in the early stages. Progress is likely to be especially slow in a case as high-profile and politically charged as this one, taking place during a time as sensitive as the months before a national election. Indeed, as limited as it proved to be, the release of the FBI affidavit may prove to be the last major revelation in the investigation for some time to come.However, there’s no doubt that the FPOTUS — against the advice of whichever unfortunate attorney(s) he has at the moment — will keep yakking and whining about his case.
But one thing that the affidavit makes clear is that the Justice Department is steadily moving forward. Someone as careful and deliberate as Attorney General Merrick Garland and an FBI Director as cautious and publicity-shy as Chris Wray simply would not have taken such a controversial step without building the strongest possible legal case for doing so—or ensuring that it leads somewhere. The sheer volume of redacted material, in fact, attests to the quantity of evidence that lies behind the warrant.
Whether this will ultimately be a criminal prosecution or not is far from clear, though nothing suggests the Justice Department has ruled the possibility out. Regardless, those of us outside of government will likely not get the immediate gratification of a quick resolution. The investigation from here is likely to vanish for a while….
posted by cenoxo at 1:45 PM on August 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
How many times does Lucy have to yank the football away before you guys will admit that faith in the system is not workng
Depends on how many time you give her the ball. No secret the system isn't really working, you really don't need a peanut parent to wahwawanh that. So its an utter faliure because a president who's broken about every law, impeached twice, raided and God knows what else is not president and the only way to make him not president again is not to vote for him. That's on us. it is quite clear and present but for the last 6 years of noise is becoming a signal in and of itself and is almost readily institutionalized within our society I don't think it's time to hand ring anymore, it's time to expose facts throw it in their faces with historical context and just that right manner of American shame.
5¢ please.
posted by clavdivs at 2:18 PM on August 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
Depends on how many time you give her the ball. No secret the system isn't really working, you really don't need a peanut parent to wahwawanh that. So its an utter faliure because a president who's broken about every law, impeached twice, raided and God knows what else is not president and the only way to make him not president again is not to vote for him. That's on us. it is quite clear and present but for the last 6 years of noise is becoming a signal in and of itself and is almost readily institutionalized within our society I don't think it's time to hand ring anymore, it's time to expose facts throw it in their faces with historical context and just that right manner of American shame.
5¢ please.
posted by clavdivs at 2:18 PM on August 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
We were told to wait and trust the system in 2000 when Gore had the Presidency stolen from him.
we were told to wait and trust the system in 1965 when LBJ sent our soldiers to war
whatever we won back then and since then was not because we blew up the system
whatever we won was not that much attributable to working within the system
whatever we won was mostly because there were enough of us to ignore the system, lie to it, work around it and build alternatives to it
and it's certainly not anywhere near over yet and it's not as effective as we would like
there's another reason why we shouldn't try to burn the system down - it's already burning by climate, by lack of energy, by inequality, by war, and by general collective stupidity - i mean, it's like pissing in a river to keep it from flooding
posted by pyramid termite at 3:11 PM on August 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
we were told to wait and trust the system in 1965 when LBJ sent our soldiers to war
whatever we won back then and since then was not because we blew up the system
whatever we won was not that much attributable to working within the system
whatever we won was mostly because there were enough of us to ignore the system, lie to it, work around it and build alternatives to it
and it's certainly not anywhere near over yet and it's not as effective as we would like
there's another reason why we shouldn't try to burn the system down - it's already burning by climate, by lack of energy, by inequality, by war, and by general collective stupidity - i mean, it's like pissing in a river to keep it from flooding
posted by pyramid termite at 3:11 PM on August 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
it's not a system anyway. it's a program.
posted by philip-random at 3:45 PM on August 28, 2022
posted by philip-random at 3:45 PM on August 28, 2022
Those who think our victories since 1965 have been minor must either not know what we won or perhaps they were never without those freedoms and they are unaware of the victories. Remember when gay people couldn’t marry one another? Or perhaps you are unaware that it wasn’t until 1974 that the Equal Credit Opportunity act allowed women in all 50 states to get car loans, credit cards, mortgages or even open and control their bank accounts without their husbands or some other man in their life helping out.
For context man had already walked on the moon, meanwhile woman fully able to walk into a bank.
posted by interogative mood at 5:12 PM on August 28, 2022 [22 favorites]
For context man had already walked on the moon, meanwhile woman fully able to walk into a bank.
posted by interogative mood at 5:12 PM on August 28, 2022 [22 favorites]
I'm actually not particularly fussed about the special master. It's not an unusual request when an attorney has committed crimes (so privileged documents must be sorted out between once that are criminal evidence and ones that are not), or when included in a cache of documents are your privileged communications with your attorney about all the crimes you did. (Certain kinds of medical malpractice cases, typically that allege systemic malpractice and potentially involved hundreds of patients' records, also are kinda likely to have special masters.) I assume it's highly likely any collection of documents Trump has contains both attorneys doing crimes AND Trump consulting his attorneys about his own crimes.
A special master doesn't slow down the process all that much. If there IS attorney-client privileged information in Trump's disorganized secret documents, well, he does have a right to protect any consultations he had with his attorneys about his crimes.
Also it seems like his camp is floating the idea that everything is protected under EXECUTIVE privilege, which, LOL WUT. And will get that reaction from any special master who's appointed (usually both sides have to agree to the appointment). Also I look forward to their extensive explanations that the top-secret intelligence materials were psychically declassified by Trump so it was FINE to show it to Russian agents, BUT ALSO are protected by executive privilege so super-strict that they can't be disclosed to the DOJ. That'll go over great.
My greater concern is actually that Congress 100% has to investigate these classified materials and how they were compromised, which means Republicans on the House and Senate Intelligence Committees are going to get to see some of this, and none of those assholes are capable of not accidentally releasing information, PLUS remember when the House GOP stormed a SCIF?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:31 PM on August 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
A special master doesn't slow down the process all that much. If there IS attorney-client privileged information in Trump's disorganized secret documents, well, he does have a right to protect any consultations he had with his attorneys about his crimes.
Also it seems like his camp is floating the idea that everything is protected under EXECUTIVE privilege, which, LOL WUT. And will get that reaction from any special master who's appointed (usually both sides have to agree to the appointment). Also I look forward to their extensive explanations that the top-secret intelligence materials were psychically declassified by Trump so it was FINE to show it to Russian agents, BUT ALSO are protected by executive privilege so super-strict that they can't be disclosed to the DOJ. That'll go over great.
My greater concern is actually that Congress 100% has to investigate these classified materials and how they were compromised, which means Republicans on the House and Senate Intelligence Committees are going to get to see some of this, and none of those assholes are capable of not accidentally releasing information, PLUS remember when the House GOP stormed a SCIF?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:31 PM on August 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
Also it seems like his camp is floating the idea that everything is protected under EXECUTIVE privilege, which, LOL WUT.
Do remember that FPOTUS and his camp are living under the illusion that he is POTUS and had the election stolen. So of course he has executive privilege.
posted by hippybear at 5:51 PM on August 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Do remember that FPOTUS and his camp are living under the illusion that he is POTUS and had the election stolen. So of course he has executive privilege.
posted by hippybear at 5:51 PM on August 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
How would a special master even work here? The evidence in question contains some highly classified stuff. An officer appointed by the court isn’t going to have the clearance to look at or the facility to store these documents.
posted by interogative mood at 6:10 PM on August 28, 2022
posted by interogative mood at 6:10 PM on August 28, 2022
How would a special master even work here? The evidence in question contains some highly classified stuff. An officer appointed by the court isn’t going to have the clearance to look at or the facility to store these documents.
Lots of attorneys work or have worked for intelligence, military, or military intelligence agencies. They can do the work at an appropriately secured facility.
posted by Etrigan at 6:46 PM on August 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Lots of attorneys work or have worked for intelligence, military, or military intelligence agencies. They can do the work at an appropriately secured facility.
posted by Etrigan at 6:46 PM on August 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
"How would a special master even work here? The evidence in question contains some highly classified stuff. An officer appointed by the court isn’t going to have the clearance to look at or the facility to store these documents."
So, my husband's lawfirm (altho not my husband) did some criminal defense for accused al-Qaeda terrorists (I attended this trial as a spectator; the partner who managed my husband was the lead defense attorney). The defense attorney had been a federal prosecutor for many years before switching to private practice, and had Top Secret clearance. No associates were able to work on the case because none of them had clearance, and there was a whole special handling procedure for the evidence since none of the other partners had Top Secret clearance.
My understanding is that anyone appointed a special master here would a) have to have clearance (and clearance that the FBI and DOJ found appropriate, not "Trump just said Kushner was fine" clearance), and b) might not be able to see all the documents regardless, and c) the inspection and handling procedures would be EXTREMELY locked down. But there are a lot of former JAG attorneys wandering around private practice. There are a lot of former CIA attorneys wandering around in private practice! There are a lot of attorneys in DC with FISA/FISC experience and appropriate clearances. There are a lot of DC lawfirms who hire retired senior military officers (colonel and up) as their non-lawyer practice managers because they have a lot of experience organizing large numbers of people, but those guys all have clearance too. It would also be possible just to appoint a current JAG officer as special master, although I don't know the procedural hurdles that would be involved in that.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:53 PM on August 28, 2022 [14 favorites]
So, my husband's lawfirm (altho not my husband) did some criminal defense for accused al-Qaeda terrorists (I attended this trial as a spectator; the partner who managed my husband was the lead defense attorney). The defense attorney had been a federal prosecutor for many years before switching to private practice, and had Top Secret clearance. No associates were able to work on the case because none of them had clearance, and there was a whole special handling procedure for the evidence since none of the other partners had Top Secret clearance.
My understanding is that anyone appointed a special master here would a) have to have clearance (and clearance that the FBI and DOJ found appropriate, not "Trump just said Kushner was fine" clearance), and b) might not be able to see all the documents regardless, and c) the inspection and handling procedures would be EXTREMELY locked down. But there are a lot of former JAG attorneys wandering around private practice. There are a lot of former CIA attorneys wandering around in private practice! There are a lot of attorneys in DC with FISA/FISC experience and appropriate clearances. There are a lot of DC lawfirms who hire retired senior military officers (colonel and up) as their non-lawyer practice managers because they have a lot of experience organizing large numbers of people, but those guys all have clearance too. It would also be possible just to appoint a current JAG officer as special master, although I don't know the procedural hurdles that would be involved in that.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:53 PM on August 28, 2022 [14 favorites]
If I'm reading this right, Marcy Wheeler at emptywheel thinks it's a little late to even bother asking for a Special Master, since the FBI has been working really quickly and has probably already reviewed everything pretty comprehensively: Six Days: Trump’s Second Whack Filing Is Too Late :
I sure do wish judges would be equally accommodating to everyone with poor representation. (Or, indeed, even MORE accommodating to people who are at the mercy of the judicial system compared to those who have spent a lifetime weaponizing it.)
posted by kristi at 7:27 PM on August 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
[regarding the FBI review of the documents retrieved months ago, and reviewed by the FBI in May:]As a non-lawyer, I really appreciate all the helpful, legally-trained commenters online who help me understand just how terribly inept some of these filings are.
One … two … three … four … five … six.
That’s how many days it took the FBI to process 15 boxes of material and then find 184 unique pieces of evidence that the former President violated the Espionage Act.
Six days.
...
[now for the August documents:]
There are approximately 50% more boxes on the CLASS receipt than FBI first accessed in May. 50% more days would be nine days.
Even assuming that the FBI didn’t throw extra bodies at the problem, even assuming they took weekends off — both completely ridiculous assumptions when you’re trying to beat a notoriously litigious suspect trying to hide stuff — they would have been done with that same preliminary review around August 18. Nine days ago.
They could have gone through the entire process twice in the time elapsed since the search of Mar-a-Lago!!!
...
So sometime on Monday, maybe — that’ll be 21 days after the FBI seized 27 boxes from Trump’s hotel, more than three times as long as it took for FBI to find 184 unique pieces of evidence that Trump violated the Espionage Act back in May — DOJ will have formal notice that this is going on, which would be the earliest that Judge Cannon could conceivably say, “Stop what you’re doing!!”
But she won’t, because first she’s going to give DOJ a chance to weigh in, even if on accelerated schedule.
I sure do wish judges would be equally accommodating to everyone with poor representation. (Or, indeed, even MORE accommodating to people who are at the mercy of the judicial system compared to those who have spent a lifetime weaponizing it.)
posted by kristi at 7:27 PM on August 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
Seeing the FBI and DOJ finally gathering legal weapons and ammo, advancing off the beachhead, and invading the Donald’s own bunker gives me hope. May they smite him with legal crossfire, and may he (and his co-conspirators) never recover financially or politically. Thoughts and prayers, may God bless America.
posted by cenoxo at 7:57 PM on August 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by cenoxo at 7:57 PM on August 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
"Marcy Wheeler at emptywheel thinks it's a little late to even bother asking for a Special Master"
Honestly I think so too, in terms of having a special master do the first pass and exclude anything privileged. But sometimes they do the second pass and state what can and cannot be introduced as evidence. It just kinda depends on the case and the situation, and I don't think we know enough to be definitive -- if the request for the special master is a genuine, considered request.
Which I think it isn't. I think honestly someone told Trump's hack lawyers that "there's such a thing as a special master!" when they were three days into flailing to respond to the FBI's search and seizure, so they decided to file demanding that thing without any clear idea of WHY, except that it was a thing they could plausibly demand. I mean, these guys have had to file the same motion three times to get it within the rules for the court; they have literally no idea what they're doing and are WAY over their heads with FISA laws. So, you know, sure! Ask for a special master! That seems like you're doing a law-talking-guy thing that a law-talking-guy would do! Maybe you won't get disbarred! (Spoiler: You're getting disbarred.)
Also I'm taking legal commentators without FISA experience with a bit of salt. I think a lot of people are on point with federal procedure and with Trump's camp's strategy. But for the actual technicalities, you need someone who knows FISA and its courts. (That is not me, btw. I just know enough to know I don't know FISA.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:53 PM on August 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
Honestly I think so too, in terms of having a special master do the first pass and exclude anything privileged. But sometimes they do the second pass and state what can and cannot be introduced as evidence. It just kinda depends on the case and the situation, and I don't think we know enough to be definitive -- if the request for the special master is a genuine, considered request.
Which I think it isn't. I think honestly someone told Trump's hack lawyers that "there's such a thing as a special master!" when they were three days into flailing to respond to the FBI's search and seizure, so they decided to file demanding that thing without any clear idea of WHY, except that it was a thing they could plausibly demand. I mean, these guys have had to file the same motion three times to get it within the rules for the court; they have literally no idea what they're doing and are WAY over their heads with FISA laws. So, you know, sure! Ask for a special master! That seems like you're doing a law-talking-guy thing that a law-talking-guy would do! Maybe you won't get disbarred! (Spoiler: You're getting disbarred.)
Also I'm taking legal commentators without FISA experience with a bit of salt. I think a lot of people are on point with federal procedure and with Trump's camp's strategy. But for the actual technicalities, you need someone who knows FISA and its courts. (That is not me, btw. I just know enough to know I don't know FISA.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:53 PM on August 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
Most lawyers seem to be assuming that the judge will act like a normal judge, but hasn't she already been a bit unorthodox, in saying in advance that she will probably appoint a special master?
Does anyone know how much Trump has changed the courts and what effect that might have?
posted by mumimor at 11:15 PM on August 28, 2022
Does anyone know how much Trump has changed the courts and what effect that might have?
posted by mumimor at 11:15 PM on August 28, 2022
Does anyone know how much Trump has changed the courts and what effect that might have?
According to moderate Republican journalist David Brooks, the shift is now to curb federal agency powers to regulate something in line with their other regulations, unless Congress explicitly told them to. Brooks says this is a new problem because Congress prefers the old way, and doesn't want to make explicit new regulation for the political liability, so the net effect is deregulation by gridlock. This reflects Federalist Society doctrine, many of them from fundamentalist families.
posted by Brian B. at 9:26 AM on August 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
According to moderate Republican journalist David Brooks, the shift is now to curb federal agency powers to regulate something in line with their other regulations, unless Congress explicitly told them to. Brooks says this is a new problem because Congress prefers the old way, and doesn't want to make explicit new regulation for the political liability, so the net effect is deregulation by gridlock. This reflects Federalist Society doctrine, many of them from fundamentalist families.
posted by Brian B. at 9:26 AM on August 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
Judge grants Justice Department's page-length motion in Trump Mar-a-Lago search fight. Feds get whopping 40 pages to lay out their position and what's happened thus far.
It seems that the usual page length limit is 20 pages. This is going to slap hard and repeatedly.
posted by orange swan at 4:33 PM on August 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
It seems that the usual page length limit is 20 pages. This is going to slap hard and repeatedly.
posted by orange swan at 4:33 PM on August 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
> They could have gone through the entire process twice in the time elapsed since the search of Mar-a-Lago!!!
washingtonpost:
washingtonpost:
FBI agents have already finished their review of possibly privileged documents seized in an Aug. 8 search of Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home, according to a Justice Department court filing Monday that could undercut the former president’s efforts to have a special master appointed to review the files.posted by sebastienbailard at 7:57 PM on August 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
The “filter team” used by the Justice Department to sort through the documents and weed out any material that should not be reviewed by criminal investigators has already “completed its review,” the brief filed by Justice Department prosecutors says
Trump Bragged He Had ‘Intelligence’ on Macron’s Sex Life
Every time you think he's awful, he's worse.
posted by readery at 8:13 PM on August 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
Every time you think he's awful, he's worse.
posted by readery at 8:13 PM on August 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
LOL, in light of that, I'm re-upping my first comment on this thread.
posted by Flunkie at 8:50 PM on August 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 8:50 PM on August 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
In readery‘s Rolling Stone link, there‘s mention of Obama forbidding spying on the head‘s of state of close friends and allie’s… and you just know Trump was like, “Pfffffft! Ha! Oh, we are spying the fuck out of all these hoity-tooty assholes!”
Thursday Biden is planning on giving a speech having something to do with this? (Implies the Twitter-verse). That should be fun.
posted by From Bklyn at 6:26 AM on August 30, 2022
Thursday Biden is planning on giving a speech having something to do with this? (Implies the Twitter-verse). That should be fun.
posted by From Bklyn at 6:26 AM on August 30, 2022
Any guesses from the Mefi legal minds as to what the DOJ will argue in its filing? I’m curious if they will spend time actually laying out some of the case from a national security perspective. Or will they stick to matters of jurisdiction, timeliness and the ability of the court to remedy here.
posted by interogative mood at 9:10 AM on August 30, 2022
posted by interogative mood at 9:10 AM on August 30, 2022
"Benedict Donald" is currently trending on Twitter, heh.
posted by orange swan at 5:46 PM on August 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 5:46 PM on August 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
This is a particularly good summary thread of the DOJ filing.
posted by suelac at 9:09 PM on August 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by suelac at 9:09 PM on August 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Before reading any commentary, and having just finished reading the filing, that was an extremely well-written filing. The recitation of facts at the top is clear, complete, and horrifying -- much more clear and direct than a lot of reporting has been.
And the legal arguments were quietly eviscerating with legit hilarious choices of citations. 10/10, no notes.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:12 PM on August 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
And the legal arguments were quietly eviscerating with legit hilarious choices of citations. 10/10, no notes.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:12 PM on August 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
Like, this is so well-written I forgive the DOJ for filing this 15 minutes before the deadline. I thought they were trolling us. In fact, they were busting ass to edit this into a clear, concise, and direct document that even a layman could follow, while nevertheless eviscerating Trump's legal team.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:18 PM on August 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:18 PM on August 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think it's clear there's a source (or multiple sources) at Maralago. Someone was telling the DOJ about the documents stored elsewhere on the facilities.
posted by suelac at 9:34 PM on August 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by suelac at 9:34 PM on August 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
That the FBI, in a matter of hours, recovered twice as many documents with classification markings as the “diligent search” that the former President’s counsel and other representatives had weeks to perform calls into serious question the representations made in the June 3 certification and casts doubt on the extent of cooperation in this matter.
Man, this is full of shade.
I'm really baffled as to the justifications here. It really must be a cult, because there's no good reason to be this obstreperous, and any sane advisor would have insisted on complying with NARA and DOJ up front. But TFG just can't ever give ground, and nobody around him has the ability to either ignore him for their own survival, or overrule him.
How does he continue to have followers, when he inevitably leads them to ruin?
posted by suelac at 9:41 PM on August 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
Man, this is full of shade.
I'm really baffled as to the justifications here. It really must be a cult, because there's no good reason to be this obstreperous, and any sane advisor would have insisted on complying with NARA and DOJ up front. But TFG just can't ever give ground, and nobody around him has the ability to either ignore him for their own survival, or overrule him.
How does he continue to have followers, when he inevitably leads them to ruin?
posted by suelac at 9:41 PM on August 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
How does he continue to have followers, when he inevitably leads them to ruin?
Sunk cost fallacy.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:43 PM on August 30, 2022 [16 favorites]
Plaintiff also sought a more detailed receipt for the property seized during the August 8,
2022 execution of the search warrant. D.E. 1 at 19-21; see generally D.E. 28. The Court ordered
the government to file under seal “[a] more detailed Receipt for Property specifying all
property seized pursuant to the search warrant.” D.E. 29 at 2. The government filed today
under seal, in accordance with the Court’s order, the more detailed receipt. Although the
receipt of property already provided to Plaintiff at the time of the search, see In Re Sealed Search
Warrant, No. 22-MJ-8332 (S.D. Fla.) (hereinafter, “MJ Docket”), D.E. 17 at 5-7, is sufficient
under Fed. R. Crim. P. 41, the government is prepared, given the extraordinary
circumstances, to unseal the more detailed receipt and provide it immediately to Plaintiff.
That's the footnote on page 2 (emphasis added). Feels like the DOJ came really wanting to play.
posted by nubs at 9:56 PM on August 30, 2022 [8 favorites]
2022 execution of the search warrant. D.E. 1 at 19-21; see generally D.E. 28. The Court ordered
the government to file under seal “[a] more detailed Receipt for Property specifying all
property seized pursuant to the search warrant.” D.E. 29 at 2. The government filed today
under seal, in accordance with the Court’s order, the more detailed receipt. Although the
receipt of property already provided to Plaintiff at the time of the search, see In Re Sealed Search
Warrant, No. 22-MJ-8332 (S.D. Fla.) (hereinafter, “MJ Docket”), D.E. 17 at 5-7, is sufficient
under Fed. R. Crim. P. 41, the government is prepared, given the extraordinary
circumstances, to unseal the more detailed receipt and provide it immediately to Plaintiff.
That's the footnote on page 2 (emphasis added). Feels like the DOJ came really wanting to play.
posted by nubs at 9:56 PM on August 30, 2022 [8 favorites]
I think this was my favorite. Emphasis mine.
⁸ Additionally, former President Trump argues that the documents at issue belong in hisposted by bcd at 10:14 PM on August 30, 2022 [14 favorites]
possession because “the PRA accords the President virtually complete control over his
records during his term of office.” Armstrong v. Bush, 924 F.2d 282, 290 (D.C. Cir.
1991). While the quote from Armstrong may be accurate, the former President omits
that his term of office is expired, so his basis for claiming control over the seized
records no longer exists. Nor would his “control” of the records serve as a basis for
special master review, particularly where the records were seized pursuant to a duly-
issued warrant.
There is also a friend of the court filing signed by a number of people including former NJ Governor Christine Todd Whitman.
posted by interogative mood at 10:44 PM on August 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:44 PM on August 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
I should have been clear, that footnote I highlighted above is from the friend of the court filing, not the DOJ filing.
posted by bcd at 10:47 PM on August 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 10:47 PM on August 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also notice in that photo that there are framed Time magazine covers. Trump has been obsessed for decades about being Time’s Person of the Year.
posted by interogative mood at 10:55 PM on August 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:55 PM on August 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
>> On Monday, Trump returned to the subject, claiming the FBI “stole my three passports (one expired), along with everything else”.
> This seems pretty serious to me, as if the FBI have cause to think he might leave the country. And don't want him to.
But obviously, one can never trust anything Trump says.
huffpost: DOJ: 'Efforts Were Likely Taken' To Obstruct Probe Of Trump's Classified Documents
Prosecutors also explained in a footnote that Trump’s passports were returned to him, even though they could have been retained as evidence.posted by sebastienbailard at 12:53 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
“The government seized the contents of a desk drawer that contained classified documents and governmental records commingled with other documents. The other documents included two official passports, one of which was expired, and one personal passport, which was expired. The location of the passports is relevant evidence in an investigation of unauthorized retention and mishandling of national defense information; nonetheless, the government decided to return those passports in its discretion,” Bratt and Gonzalez wrote.
Just for the record:
- National Archives > Presidential Libraries and Museums > Laws and Regulations > Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978:
The Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978, 44 U.S.C. ß2201-2209, governs the official records of Presidents and Vice Presidents that were created or received after January 20, 1981 (i.e., beginning with the Reagan Administration). The PRA changed the legal ownership of the official records of the President from private to public, and established a new statutory structure under which Presidents, and subsequently NARA, must manage the records of their Administrations. The PRA was amended in 2014, which established several new provisions….
- The Presidential Records Act: An Overview [PDF], Congressional Research Service, December 17, 2019
- Wikipedia > Presidential Records Act
- Lawfare > Presidential Records Act articles
Trump's closing missive last night was uncharacteristically brief - and strangely poignant:
"Why are people so mean?"
(note: my calling his message "poignant" does not in any way imply I actually have sympathy for the motherfucker)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:01 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
"Why are people so mean?"
(note: my calling his message "poignant" does not in any way imply I actually have sympathy for the motherfucker)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:01 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Well, apparently, the Republican National Committee won't be paying Trump’s legal bills related to the FBI raid, so maybe he's really asking "Ronna, why are you so mean?"
posted by taz at 4:28 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by taz at 4:28 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
Ha, and the RNC is getting deeply concerned that 45's fundraising is taking the lion's share of donations that would typically go to other GOP candidates. They're starting to worry he's not going to share, and to that I say hahahahaa.
posted by mochapickle at 4:55 AM on August 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 4:55 AM on August 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
"Why are people so mean?"
The poor self-victimized FPOTUS, always blaming others and seeking sympathy for getting caught.
posted by cenoxo at 5:48 AM on August 31, 2022
The poor self-victimized FPOTUS, always blaming others and seeking sympathy for getting caught.
posted by cenoxo at 5:48 AM on August 31, 2022
How does he continue to have followers, when he inevitably leads them to ruin?
Sunk cost fallacy.
That doesn't really explain Lindsey Graham or Ted Cruz. Once he was out of office, they could have simply ignored him and let him fade away, holding his little rallies for ever decreasing crowds. They were fully aware of the lies, fully aware need twice lost the popular vote, fully aware how badly he screwed up COVID. But instead of letting him slide into irrelevancy where they could have at least pretended they had only been along for the ride as "good party member," they went all in. Some higher delusion is at work.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:02 AM on August 31, 2022
Sunk cost fallacy.
That doesn't really explain Lindsey Graham or Ted Cruz. Once he was out of office, they could have simply ignored him and let him fade away, holding his little rallies for ever decreasing crowds. They were fully aware of the lies, fully aware need twice lost the popular vote, fully aware how badly he screwed up COVID. But instead of letting him slide into irrelevancy where they could have at least pretended they had only been along for the ride as "good party member," they went all in. Some higher delusion is at work.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:02 AM on August 31, 2022
Or possibly kompromat.
posted by acb at 6:09 AM on August 31, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by acb at 6:09 AM on August 31, 2022 [11 favorites]
That doesn't really explain Lindsey Graham or Ted Cruz. Once he was out of office, they could have simply ignored him and let him fade away
Yeah, the surprising continuing support AND some of the early 2015-2016 quick reversals from opponent to supporter make little sense to me. I can easily imagine any number of politicians being opportunistic, or intimidated by the ability of his gonzo core supporters to unseat them (as they've done to Lynn Cheney), but some of it just makes no sense.
Those bewildering shows of loyalty would make a lot more sense to me if he has something on them. I mean, he was good friends with Jeffrey Epstein, he's friends with Putin, he's had people buying up dirt (on him, like the National Enquirer burying the Karen McDougal story, and very likely on his perceived enemies as well) for years. If he's got something on them, their behavior makes more sense; and if he doesn't, then you get Cassidy Hutchinson and even VP Pence willing to criticize him in public.
Edit: Jinx, acb!
posted by kristi at 6:13 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah, the surprising continuing support AND some of the early 2015-2016 quick reversals from opponent to supporter make little sense to me. I can easily imagine any number of politicians being opportunistic, or intimidated by the ability of his gonzo core supporters to unseat them (as they've done to Lynn Cheney), but some of it just makes no sense.
Those bewildering shows of loyalty would make a lot more sense to me if he has something on them. I mean, he was good friends with Jeffrey Epstein, he's friends with Putin, he's had people buying up dirt (on him, like the National Enquirer burying the Karen McDougal story, and very likely on his perceived enemies as well) for years. If he's got something on them, their behavior makes more sense; and if he doesn't, then you get Cassidy Hutchinson and even VP Pence willing to criticize him in public.
Edit: Jinx, acb!
posted by kristi at 6:13 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Trump doesn’t have to have anything on Graham and Cruze. Republican voters will end their political careers if the don’t show loyalty to Trump.
posted by interogative mood at 6:35 AM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 6:35 AM on August 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
Any guesses from the Mefi legal minds as to what the DOJ will argue in its filing?
It's the lawyer equivalent of "WHO THE FUCK DOES HE THINK HE IS?!"
posted by essexjan at 6:41 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's the lawyer equivalent of "WHO THE FUCK DOES HE THINK HE IS?!"
posted by essexjan at 6:41 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
Telling article in WaPo [gift link] about Trump's obsession with documents. It's all about ego.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:50 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:50 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
How does he continue to have followers, when he inevitably leads them to ruin?
Cognitive dissonance is a standard explanation, essentially a denial of a disconfirmed expectation. Importantly, religions begin with a minor cult figure's failed prophecy or other personal failure, because followers reject the unthinkable and create a belief system for it.
posted by Brian B. at 7:16 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Cognitive dissonance is a standard explanation, essentially a denial of a disconfirmed expectation. Importantly, religions begin with a minor cult figure's failed prophecy or other personal failure, because followers reject the unthinkable and create a belief system for it.
posted by Brian B. at 7:16 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
I just realized why Trump kept those documents. He was probably saving them so some porn star could spank him with them.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:41 AM on August 31, 2022
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:41 AM on August 31, 2022
Who needs kompromat when you have Republican primary voters?
posted by BungaDunga at 9:03 AM on August 31, 2022
posted by BungaDunga at 9:03 AM on August 31, 2022
I just realized why Trump kept those documents. He was probably saving them so some porn star could spank him with them.
Oh bluergh. Cheese may digest all but today I will digest nothing.
posted by mochapickle at 9:21 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oh bluergh. Cheese may digest all but today I will digest nothing.
posted by mochapickle at 9:21 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
So we had fun with Affidavit Day...
Who is this Twitter user, and why do people keep linking to him?
His bio reads: "Author, consultant, motivational speaker. Biggest social media slut in mobile. A mAd vidiot, F1 fan, globetrotting digital [slur] 007 wannabe. The T Dawg"
He appears to be some random douche who posts hyperbolic Twitter threads speculating on current news. Why are we supposed to trust that he has any idea what he's talking about? Honest question.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:16 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Who is this Twitter user, and why do people keep linking to him?
His bio reads: "Author, consultant, motivational speaker. Biggest social media slut in mobile. A mAd vidiot, F1 fan, globetrotting digital [slur] 007 wannabe. The T Dawg"
He appears to be some random douche who posts hyperbolic Twitter threads speculating on current news. Why are we supposed to trust that he has any idea what he's talking about? Honest question.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:16 AM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
“The government seized the contents of a desk drawer that contained classified documents and governmental records commingled with other documents. The other documents included two official passports, one of which was expired, and one personal passport, which was expired. The location of the passports is relevant evidence in an investigation of unauthorized retention and mishandling of national defense information; nonetheless, the government decided to return those passports in its discretion,” Bratt and Gonzalez wrote.
Who doesn't keep a bugout bag of multiple passports, foreign currency and national secrets, in case of emergency?
posted by pwnguin at 10:21 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Who doesn't keep a bugout bag of multiple passports, foreign currency and national secrets, in case of emergency?
posted by pwnguin at 10:21 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
His diplomatic passports, at least, would have been keepsakes for him- of course he'd hang on to those, as trophies.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:24 AM on August 31, 2022
posted by BungaDunga at 10:24 AM on August 31, 2022
(my working theory is that he mostly kept this stuff because it was cool and fun stuff to him. Probably the TS/SCI stuff are cool-ass satellite photos, etc, and even just having the CLASSIFIED folders probably seemed cool to him. He's got the aesthetic sense of an 8 year old)
posted by BungaDunga at 10:28 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:28 AM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I couldn't care less why Trump hung on to the classified documents, as his motivation isn't a mitigating factor at all. The fact is, as today's posts make clear, the document being in his possession at all was a crime, he knew about it, and he tried to conceal it.
Trump's in trouble, and what's more he's acting like a narcissist who knows he's in trouble. Even his lawyers are in trouble. I expect things to get worse for him before long, and I'm here for it.
posted by Gelatin at 10:59 AM on August 31, 2022 [11 favorites]
Trump's in trouble, and what's more he's acting like a narcissist who knows he's in trouble. Even his lawyers are in trouble. I expect things to get worse for him before long, and I'm here for it.
posted by Gelatin at 10:59 AM on August 31, 2022 [11 favorites]
I don't think it does any good to infantilize Trump. Yes, he is no doubt the least intelligent and least informed POTUS ever. But that doesn't mean he is a child. Infantilizing him suggests that he somehow crimed by accident, that he didn't understand that his evil doings were against the law. But he knew that very well. Both because his legal council told him so, and because one of his things is pretending he is some sort of Mafia boss, issuing threats and handing out cash.
The apparent mess on his desk or in the boxes was not a prop or a sign that he is disorganized. It's a very simple way of hiding stuff. That box is just old TIME magazine covers, nothing important in there.
posted by mumimor at 11:03 AM on August 31, 2022 [15 favorites]
The apparent mess on his desk or in the boxes was not a prop or a sign that he is disorganized. It's a very simple way of hiding stuff. That box is just old TIME magazine covers, nothing important in there.
posted by mumimor at 11:03 AM on August 31, 2022 [15 favorites]
His diplomatic passports, at least, would have been keepsakes for him- of course he'd hang on to those, as trophies.
Just for the record, the State Department lets you keep a diplomatic passport as a trophy. I have one from a military assignment at an embassy, and when I sent it in when I renewed my regular passport, I got it back with a hole punched in the cover.
posted by Etrigan at 11:04 AM on August 31, 2022 [12 favorites]
Just for the record, the State Department lets you keep a diplomatic passport as a trophy. I have one from a military assignment at an embassy, and when I sent it in when I renewed my regular passport, I got it back with a hole punched in the cover.
posted by Etrigan at 11:04 AM on August 31, 2022 [12 favorites]
But he knew that very well. Both because his legal council told him so, and because one of his things is pretending he is some sort of Mafia boss, issuing threats and handing out cash.
I know lying is second nature to Trump, but lying also signals guilty knowledge, and Trump's people, at least, have been lying about his having classified documents in his possession for months, forcing the DOJ to execute a search warrant to recover them, which is, of course, what all this is about.
posted by Gelatin at 11:09 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
I know lying is second nature to Trump, but lying also signals guilty knowledge, and Trump's people, at least, have been lying about his having classified documents in his possession for months, forcing the DOJ to execute a search warrant to recover them, which is, of course, what all this is about.
posted by Gelatin at 11:09 AM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
What if Trump's pile of paper is nothing more than a prop?
posted by y2karl at 11:34 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 11:34 AM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
My dog wanted to go out in the middle of me writing the above comment, so I want to add:
Trump dumbs down for his audience/cult, and he is very aware of just how stupid they are. That "shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it" should have been a warning.
But remember, all politicians dumb down for their voters. Dubya did it, Biden does it in the most frustrating way imaginable. There's a legendary SNL sketch about Reagan doing it that has turned out to be closer to reality than we thought back then. Even Obama did it.
Trump is putting his bare arms deeper into the cesspool, no doubt about it. But don't confuse his pandering to the worst humans for actual idiocy. He is a greedy, ignorant, evil person with no dignity or propriety, and he has no respect for the rule of law, or democracy. But he knows what he is doing and he thinks he can get away with it, because he has gotten away with crimes since he was very young.
posted by mumimor at 11:38 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
Trump dumbs down for his audience/cult, and he is very aware of just how stupid they are. That "shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it" should have been a warning.
But remember, all politicians dumb down for their voters. Dubya did it, Biden does it in the most frustrating way imaginable. There's a legendary SNL sketch about Reagan doing it that has turned out to be closer to reality than we thought back then. Even Obama did it.
Trump is putting his bare arms deeper into the cesspool, no doubt about it. But don't confuse his pandering to the worst humans for actual idiocy. He is a greedy, ignorant, evil person with no dignity or propriety, and he has no respect for the rule of law, or democracy. But he knows what he is doing and he thinks he can get away with it, because he has gotten away with crimes since he was very young.
posted by mumimor at 11:38 AM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
From y2karl's link:
Grisham tells us that Trump continued to travel with his unread paper props even as he occupied the most powerful position on Earth; naturally, he took some piles home with him after his term. I can picture him pulling out a sheaf of letters from North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Un and asking, Do you know who wrote these? Or waving a morsel of gossip about a European leader and challenging his guest to surmise the origin of the information.
Is this supposed to be a defense? Like, Trump didn't read any of this shit he carried around with him, he just wants it so he can show off, so its ok that he had classified material randomly placed around his office? Because no one else would every dare disturb Trump's piling system to get at sensitive information, oh no.
posted by nubs at 11:54 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Grisham tells us that Trump continued to travel with his unread paper props even as he occupied the most powerful position on Earth; naturally, he took some piles home with him after his term. I can picture him pulling out a sheaf of letters from North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Un and asking, Do you know who wrote these? Or waving a morsel of gossip about a European leader and challenging his guest to surmise the origin of the information.
Is this supposed to be a defense? Like, Trump didn't read any of this shit he carried around with him, he just wants it so he can show off, so its ok that he had classified material randomly placed around his office? Because no one else would every dare disturb Trump's piling system to get at sensitive information, oh no.
posted by nubs at 11:54 AM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
The twitter user referenced by escape from the potato planet is Tomi T Ahonen. He's basically a guy with a lot twitter followers and opinions that people agree with. His professional experience seems to have been in telecom and 3G in particular. I would put him fairly low on the credibilty scale in terms of his expertise, except perhaps being a proxy for some subset of people on the internet who tend to agree with his hot takes.
posted by interogative mood at 12:20 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 12:20 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Prosecutors would LOVE for Trump to raise the defense that he was merely using America's most closely guarded secrets as props to show off to people. Right now they can prove he had the documents, mishandled them, obstructed justice by failing to comply with the subpoena; and committed perjury (or at least his lawyers did) by asserting he had conducted a thorough search. They would love to be able to prove that someone other than Trump accessed or was shown these documents. This defense would amount to confessing that he had.
posted by interogative mood at 12:39 PM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 12:39 PM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Is this supposed to be a defense? Like, Trump didn't read any of this shit he carried around with him, he just wants it so he can show off, so its ok that he had classified material randomly placed around his office?
I don't think the "the paper was just props" was meant to be a defense; more like a counter-argument against the notion that he had a plan for them in the first place. "He never meant to, like, use them for anything that would have called for executive privilege in the first place - which makes it even worse that he took them." That kind of thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:45 PM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't think the "the paper was just props" was meant to be a defense; more like a counter-argument against the notion that he had a plan for them in the first place. "He never meant to, like, use them for anything that would have called for executive privilege in the first place - which makes it even worse that he took them." That kind of thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:45 PM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't think the "the paper was just props" was meant to be a defense; more like a counter-argument against the notion that he had a plan for them in the first place. "He never meant to, like, use them for anything that would have called for executive privilege in the first place - which makes it even worse that he took them." That kind of thing.
I can't speak for others, but I get that. It is still not relevant. Specially when we now know (and the WaPo writer knows) that first the NARA and then the FBI asked politely for the documents for several months, more than a year.
And then I also don't believe it. Trump is not a hoarder. The effing article actually makes it clear: after being endorsed by the Klan, his seemingly disordered pile of paper contained three pictures of Black heroes, all of which Trump easily found in the stacks.
posted by mumimor at 12:56 PM on August 31, 2022
I can't speak for others, but I get that. It is still not relevant. Specially when we now know (and the WaPo writer knows) that first the NARA and then the FBI asked politely for the documents for several months, more than a year.
And then I also don't believe it. Trump is not a hoarder. The effing article actually makes it clear: after being endorsed by the Klan, his seemingly disordered pile of paper contained three pictures of Black heroes, all of which Trump easily found in the stacks.
posted by mumimor at 12:56 PM on August 31, 2022
I can't speak for others, but I get that. It is still not relevant. Specially when we now know (and the WaPo writer knows) that first the NARA and then the FBI asked politely for the documents for several months, more than a year.
My point, though, was more: you asked "is this supposed to be a defense", and I was saying "no".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:00 PM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
My point, though, was more: you asked "is this supposed to be a defense", and I was saying "no".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:00 PM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, Empress, I'm not arguing against you, more against that WaPo writer.
I don't know where he is politically, but there are some people who really revel in the notion that Trump is uniquely ignorant, and while it is probably true that he is, among presidents, he is not nearly as stupid as they imagine he is.
posted by mumimor at 1:03 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't know where he is politically, but there are some people who really revel in the notion that Trump is uniquely ignorant, and while it is probably true that he is, among presidents, he is not nearly as stupid as they imagine he is.
posted by mumimor at 1:03 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Or maybe it's a case of Munchausen's Syndrome of Kennedy's Brain by Proxy.
posted by y2karl at 1:06 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 1:06 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't know where he is politically, but there are some people who really revel in the notion that Trump is uniquely ignorant, and while it is probably true that he is, among presidents, he is not nearly as stupid as they imagine he is.
That's fair...by the same token, though, it sounds like you're suggesting that he's had a more complicated plan in mind, but I don't see the evidence for that - not because I think he's ignorant (although I do think he is, empirically), but rather because of id, and greed.
In Carrie Fisher's Postcards From the Edge, there's a character who quips that she feels like "instant gratification takes too long" - and this is more what I see Trump's motivation to be. He doesn't want the thing that takes a while to work towards and would take planning and calculation - precisely because it takes a while to work towards. Sure, maybe he could sell some of the stuff in that box to spies and make money - or he could just keep it and be able to show it off to people ("look, I have a secret document from when I was president and you don't, ha ha!"). Maybe he could learn something if he read it - but that takes to long, it's cooler just to have it so he can say he has it.
It's like he's at a whole other level beyond the kids who fail the marshmallow test. There's the kids that wait and get a second marshmallow - there's the kids who eat the first marshmallow right away - and then there's Trump, who'd immediately pocket the marshmallow and then when the adult walked back into the room, he'd hold it up and say "Look, I have a marshmallow!" and then he'd take the second one from them and say "now I have two and you don't have any!" Or, he'd eat the first one, and get up and go search for more marshmallows.
I don't think that is necessarily ignorance as such - but I also don't think there's any plan going on so much as a Gollum-like "I have a thing and you don't, ha ha".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:19 PM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
That's fair...by the same token, though, it sounds like you're suggesting that he's had a more complicated plan in mind, but I don't see the evidence for that - not because I think he's ignorant (although I do think he is, empirically), but rather because of id, and greed.
In Carrie Fisher's Postcards From the Edge, there's a character who quips that she feels like "instant gratification takes too long" - and this is more what I see Trump's motivation to be. He doesn't want the thing that takes a while to work towards and would take planning and calculation - precisely because it takes a while to work towards. Sure, maybe he could sell some of the stuff in that box to spies and make money - or he could just keep it and be able to show it off to people ("look, I have a secret document from when I was president and you don't, ha ha!"). Maybe he could learn something if he read it - but that takes to long, it's cooler just to have it so he can say he has it.
It's like he's at a whole other level beyond the kids who fail the marshmallow test. There's the kids that wait and get a second marshmallow - there's the kids who eat the first marshmallow right away - and then there's Trump, who'd immediately pocket the marshmallow and then when the adult walked back into the room, he'd hold it up and say "Look, I have a marshmallow!" and then he'd take the second one from them and say "now I have two and you don't have any!" Or, he'd eat the first one, and get up and go search for more marshmallows.
I don't think that is necessarily ignorance as such - but I also don't think there's any plan going on so much as a Gollum-like "I have a thing and you don't, ha ha".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:19 PM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
But that doesn't mean he is a child.
to be clear, he absolutely did this with his fully adult faculties. I just mean that the stuff he likes (fast food, well-done steaks, gold toilets, letters fromhis pen palKim Jong Un etc) is pretty juvenile, and he's exactly the sort of person who thinks that classified satellite photos are badass things to keep in your desk drawer and pull out to impress other people with. That he stored them next to his Time Magazine covers lends some credence to the idea that he might have just thought of these documents as mementos/trophies that he deserved to keep, and nobody would dare challenge him on it or find out about them.
(if his plan was to sell these secrets, I think he'd have kept them in a safe like his buddies at the National Enquirer did. But he wanted them close at hand so he could look at them and show them off, in private)
posted by BungaDunga at 1:21 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
to be clear, he absolutely did this with his fully adult faculties. I just mean that the stuff he likes (fast food, well-done steaks, gold toilets, letters from
(if his plan was to sell these secrets, I think he'd have kept them in a safe like his buddies at the National Enquirer did. But he wanted them close at hand so he could look at them and show them off, in private)
posted by BungaDunga at 1:21 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't think that is necessarily ignorance as such - but I also don't think there's any plan going on so much as a Gollum-like "I have a thing and you don't, ha ha".
The likes of Putin, Kim-Jong, China, Saudis, etc. all know he's like that. So whether or not Trump had a plan for the documents, undoubtedly foreign powers did and so the odds of there being multiple agents inside Mar-a-Lago working undercover as housekeepers, janitors, etc. are, I think, extremely high.
posted by essexjan at 1:55 PM on August 31, 2022 [15 favorites]
The likes of Putin, Kim-Jong, China, Saudis, etc. all know he's like that. So whether or not Trump had a plan for the documents, undoubtedly foreign powers did and so the odds of there being multiple agents inside Mar-a-Lago working undercover as housekeepers, janitors, etc. are, I think, extremely high.
posted by essexjan at 1:55 PM on August 31, 2022 [15 favorites]
I remember reading pre him being Dolt 45, about some guy going to Dump Tower to interview him. The first thing that happened was this guy was escorted into a room with big long table covered with framed magazine covers of you know who all out for display. And Dolt 45 was really proud.
posted by njohnson23 at 2:18 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by njohnson23 at 2:18 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Every era gets the Ozymandias it deserves.
posted by acb at 2:21 PM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by acb at 2:21 PM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
Andrew Weissmann (@AWeissmann_), whose Twitter bio says he worked for 20 years at DOJ and 10 as defense counse, has a pinned tweet right now that says, "DOJ BIG PICTURE: you don’t make a filing this strong, bold, and factually accusatory if you don’t have every intention to indict."
I am cautiously optimistic that the DOJ is going to nail TFG.
posted by orange swan at 3:48 PM on August 31, 2022 [11 favorites]
I am cautiously optimistic that the DOJ is going to nail TFG.
posted by orange swan at 3:48 PM on August 31, 2022 [11 favorites]
I hope they do, and I hope he totally flips his shit like the villain at the end of a Phoenix Wright game
posted by rifflesby at 4:01 PM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by rifflesby at 4:01 PM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Weissman was also a pretty senior guy in the Mueller investigation.
Donald trump being judged in phoenix wright, ace attorney, 4 k, high quality (a Stable Diffusion AI generation)
posted by BungaDunga at 4:29 PM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Donald trump being judged in phoenix wright, ace attorney, 4 k, high quality (a Stable Diffusion AI generation)
posted by BungaDunga at 4:29 PM on August 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
Can we get Tom Cruise to cross-examine him about the Code Red?
posted by MtDewd at 4:52 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by MtDewd at 4:52 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
My dream closing statement from Trump's defense:
And ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the prosecution is not gonna get that man today. No! Because I'm gonna get him! My client, the Dishonorable Donald J. Trump, should go right to fuckin' jail! The son of a bitch is guilty! This man is guilty!posted by kirkaracha at 5:19 PM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
Trump's reply has been filed.
That is so many assumptions and so many demands coming so so very much too late. Points for trying, I guess.
posted by hippybear at 5:45 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
That is so many assumptions and so many demands coming so so very much too late. Points for trying, I guess.
posted by hippybear at 5:45 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
After reading that document from this morning, which step by step, put forward what seemed to be a quite valid position, reading this new document from the Movant, was a WTF of great import. Note… the Movant is always described as being the President. He still has executive privilege, despite the first document nailing the coffin on that. I had an English teacher in high school back in the ‘60s, who had put himself through college working as an orderly in a large state mental hospital. He told us one day that mentally ill people are not illogical. They are very logical, it is just that their first premises are unfounded. Clearly the first premise of the writers of this document are that Dolt 45 is the President and thus follows their quite logical argument. I’m dying to see some of the legal experts take this document apart.
posted by njohnson23 at 5:52 PM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 5:52 PM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
IANAL, but having read the DOJ’s filing and now TFG’s reply, I can’t imagine anybody ruling in Trump’s favor. The DOJ filing is DEVASTATING. And the reply struggles to cover the lost ground and utterly fails at the task.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:54 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 5:54 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
TFG's clownsel's main claim seems to be that since 'executive privilege' and 'attorney client privilege' end with the word 'privilege' they are the same thing and should be treated in the same way. I feel this might not work out as well for them as they hope.
posted by bcd at 6:28 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 6:28 PM on August 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I mean, I can't say Trump's motivation doesn't matter; it might matter legally, I don't know; it might matter politically; I assume it matters to certain national security professionals
but logically the possibilities are all some combination of Selfish, Stupid, and Malevolent and I don't think the exact mix matters that much. Or maybe it just doesn't matter to me. Because whatever answer we land on, his actions are demonstrably careless and casually criminal.
And politically, what should matter is just that .... He doesn't give a shit if he compromised national security. That's the smoking gun! We don't yet know if he DID compromise national security, and as normal citizens we never will know much detail, but we CAN BE CERTAIN that he DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT.
And that's something that's been obvious about his character from day one, it's something Republicans should frankly be able to agree with, because that's what they like about him, is that he doesn't give a shit about the law. It should be an extremely believable message.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 6:37 PM on August 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
but logically the possibilities are all some combination of Selfish, Stupid, and Malevolent and I don't think the exact mix matters that much. Or maybe it just doesn't matter to me. Because whatever answer we land on, his actions are demonstrably careless and casually criminal.
And politically, what should matter is just that .... He doesn't give a shit if he compromised national security. That's the smoking gun! We don't yet know if he DID compromise national security, and as normal citizens we never will know much detail, but we CAN BE CERTAIN that he DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT.
And that's something that's been obvious about his character from day one, it's something Republicans should frankly be able to agree with, because that's what they like about him, is that he doesn't give a shit about the law. It should be an extremely believable message.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 6:37 PM on August 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
A search warrant has been executed at the home of a President. It was conducted in the midst of the standard give-and-take between former Presidents and NARA regarding Presidential library contents, and with the Movant literally allowing DOJ lawyers and FBI investigators to come to his home and provide security advice."standard give-and-take", "provide security advice", flipping hilarious.
posted by bcd at 6:49 PM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
So then, he's a "former President", right, sorted.
posted by riverlife at 6:56 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by riverlife at 6:56 PM on August 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Do these dumb fucks not realize that if the cops search your shit illegally and find drugs that you don't get the drugs back when a court rules that the search was in fact illegal? All the court can do is keep the government from using them as evidence against you.
In reality, it was a properly issued warrant, but his attorneys can and should argue that point, although at the proper time in the proper venue. You don't go running to a different judge before charges are even filed.
Moreover, it seems that they don't grasp the concept of mootness. If the taint team has already done their work and the investigators have already reviewed the material that was seized, there's nothing for a Special Master to do. Trump and/or his attorneys chose not to make the argument in a timely manner and the clock already ran out in the meantime.
This is all some pro se sovereign citizen level bullshit.
posted by wierdo at 7:18 PM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
In reality, it was a properly issued warrant, but his attorneys can and should argue that point, although at the proper time in the proper venue. You don't go running to a different judge before charges are even filed.
Moreover, it seems that they don't grasp the concept of mootness. If the taint team has already done their work and the investigators have already reviewed the material that was seized, there's nothing for a Special Master to do. Trump and/or his attorneys chose not to make the argument in a timely manner and the clock already ran out in the meantime.
This is all some pro se sovereign citizen level bullshit.
posted by wierdo at 7:18 PM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
no, he's a current president - all the others are former, except biden, who is an unpresident
if you don't believe me, you can ask him
posted by pyramid termite at 7:18 PM on August 31, 2022
if you don't believe me, you can ask him
posted by pyramid termite at 7:18 PM on August 31, 2022
You don't go running to a different judge before charges are even filed.
You do if you appointed that judge.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:22 PM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
You do if you appointed that judge.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:22 PM on August 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
I couldn't care less why Trump hung on to the classified documents, as his motivation isn't a mitigating factor at all.I care. I don't care about it as "a mitigating factor" -- in fact the possibility didn't even occur to me -- but as a potential inroad to discovering more crimes and more criminals.
I don't think it does any good to infantilize Trump. Yes, he is no doubt the least intelligent and least informed POTUS ever. But that doesn't mean he is a child. Infantilizing him suggests that he somehow crimed by accident, that he didn't understand that his evil doings were against the law.I don't think that's what people are suggesting by comparing him to a child (at least not usually). To me, at least, it's more a comment on things like his extreme lack of impulse control, me-me-me worldview, and apparent incomprehension that the things he claims are often completely and transparently unbelievable.
I'm of course not saying that all (or even most) kids are like that, but all of them are things that are characteristic of many children, most of whom age out of them (at least to a large degree) at some point.
posted by Flunkie at 7:26 PM on August 31, 2022
"Trump's reply has been filed."
AHHHHHHH the Bluebooking is wrong!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:44 PM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
AHHHHHHH the Bluebooking is wrong!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:44 PM on August 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
From Trump's filing: Movant also agrees that it would be appropriate for the special master to possess a Top Secret/SCI security clearance.
So movant conceeds these materials include highly classified information. Excellent.
posted by interogative mood at 8:39 PM on August 31, 2022 [12 favorites]
So movant conceeds these materials include highly classified information. Excellent.
posted by interogative mood at 8:39 PM on August 31, 2022 [12 favorites]
Trump's lawyers seriously need to learn the word "arguendo." Like, "Assuming, arguendo, that the materials were classified, then it would be appropriate for a special master to ... "
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:53 PM on August 31, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:53 PM on August 31, 2022 [8 favorites]
"Arguendo" is like "friendo" for someone you're arguing with, right?
posted by Pronoiac at 9:46 PM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 9:46 PM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
Those first three pages (shit let's be honest all the frickin' pages) y'all--it's not hyperbole to say that they are just levels upon and within levels of bat. shit. insane.
It may well be just that I need more Alex Jones supplements for my fading eyesight (/hamburger 🍔) but I'm having trouble, I can't quite make out there, towards the bottom, at the very end of the filing, with the signatures, I see, it's hard for me, I think an ... L? and then some letters and ... is that? ... an ... I think I see an H! and then some other letters. Did ... could Lionel Hutz ... is it possible that Lionel Hutz signed this filing?
posted by riverlife at 10:16 PM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
It may well be just that I need more Alex Jones supplements for my fading eyesight (/hamburger 🍔) but I'm having trouble, I can't quite make out there, towards the bottom, at the very end of the filing, with the signatures, I see, it's hard for me, I think an ... L? and then some letters and ... is that? ... an ... I think I see an H! and then some other letters. Did ... could Lionel Hutz ... is it possible that Lionel Hutz signed this filing?
posted by riverlife at 10:16 PM on August 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Well, that was some weird shit.
I really wonder why Trump's lawyers do this. They are literally going to go over in history as complete clowns. How can they not be aware of that?
Though, a decade or so ago, I was in a prolonged legal battle with a corrupt political organisation (not even nationally important, but important for my tiny business). And they did stuff like this again and again. My lawyer quoted someone, I don't remember who, that criminals are always stupid. If they weren't stupid, they wouldn't be criminal. Still, this fight took several years.
Everything Trump does, they did, to the degree that I assume there must be a manual for crooks out there*. Stall, ignore letters and mails, if you can't ignore something, write a batshit reply, tell your members/cult you are the victim of persecution, stall again. Refuse to sign documents. Bring in someone to negotiate (or in this case a special master), stall. Don't rinse. Repeat. Make sure all of your documentation is a messy jumble that will take months or even years to work through if you are indicted or challenged politically. Make sure the legal costs will overwhelm your opponents (good luck with that when your opponent is the US government).
I won the battle eventually, but I didn't succeed in getting anyone indicted for their corruption and misuse of funds. "Everyone" agreed that it would be better to "avoid the scandal".
*Actually, since this was adjacent to the construction industry, I think the methods come from that culture, which is globally a money laundering machine. Actually, at one of the last meetings in the wider organization before we formally won, one of the members asked directly: why don't we just stiff them? That is what I always do when I don't want to pay a contractor. They can't afford to fight back.
posted by mumimor at 11:39 PM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
I really wonder why Trump's lawyers do this. They are literally going to go over in history as complete clowns. How can they not be aware of that?
Though, a decade or so ago, I was in a prolonged legal battle with a corrupt political organisation (not even nationally important, but important for my tiny business). And they did stuff like this again and again. My lawyer quoted someone, I don't remember who, that criminals are always stupid. If they weren't stupid, they wouldn't be criminal. Still, this fight took several years.
Everything Trump does, they did, to the degree that I assume there must be a manual for crooks out there*. Stall, ignore letters and mails, if you can't ignore something, write a batshit reply, tell your members/cult you are the victim of persecution, stall again. Refuse to sign documents. Bring in someone to negotiate (or in this case a special master), stall. Don't rinse. Repeat. Make sure all of your documentation is a messy jumble that will take months or even years to work through if you are indicted or challenged politically. Make sure the legal costs will overwhelm your opponents (good luck with that when your opponent is the US government).
I won the battle eventually, but I didn't succeed in getting anyone indicted for their corruption and misuse of funds. "Everyone" agreed that it would be better to "avoid the scandal".
*Actually, since this was adjacent to the construction industry, I think the methods come from that culture, which is globally a money laundering machine. Actually, at one of the last meetings in the wider organization before we formally won, one of the members asked directly: why don't we just stiff them? That is what I always do when I don't want to pay a contractor. They can't afford to fight back.
posted by mumimor at 11:39 PM on August 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
A tiny but amusing detail from Lisa Rubin:
p.s. Local rules in S.D. Florida limits reply briefs to 10 pages absent permission of the court. You think they had permission for their 18-page rant? Nope, no they did not. The rules don't apply. Wonder where they learned that.posted by bcd at 12:08 AM on September 1, 2022 [10 favorites]
If the taint team has already done their work and the investigators have already reviewed the material that was seized, there's nothing for a Special Master to do.
Towards the end is this text which I think gives it all away:
posted by mikelieman at 4:10 AM on September 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
Towards the end is this text which I think gives it all away:
The designations should identify all Presidential records, and all potentially privileged documents, for which counsel for Movant shall set forth the basis for assertion of the attorney-client and/or executive privileges; and documents containing highly personal information, such as diaries, journals, and medical records. [footnote] 4That's what they're really worried about. All the other stuff that is evidence of different crimes that was in the same drawers as the classified Presidential Records.
posted by mikelieman at 4:10 AM on September 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
How does that work legally if they discover evidence crime b while looking for crime a?
(I tried googling the generic case but results were tainted by the new Trump stuff.)
posted by sebastienbailard at 5:28 AM on September 1, 2022
(I tried googling the generic case but results were tainted by the new Trump stuff.)
posted by sebastienbailard at 5:28 AM on September 1, 2022
I doubt very much if Trump keeps a diary or journal - he's barely literate - but I would pay good money to see the medical records of the Healthiest President Ever.
posted by essexjan at 5:38 AM on September 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 5:38 AM on September 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
How does that work legally if they discover evidence crime b while looking for crime a?
In the case of Brian Pierick, whilst executing a search warrant in relation to an embezzelment case, investigators seized phones that subsequent analysis showed contained child pornography. As a result, charges were filed against Brian Pierick in relation to those offences, even though the evidence came to light as a result of a search warrant into an unrelated matter. He later took a plea deal on those charges.
So if the search warrant at Mar-a-Lago turns up evidence of other crimes, then that's fair game too.
posted by essexjan at 5:49 AM on September 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
In the case of Brian Pierick, whilst executing a search warrant in relation to an embezzelment case, investigators seized phones that subsequent analysis showed contained child pornography. As a result, charges were filed against Brian Pierick in relation to those offences, even though the evidence came to light as a result of a search warrant into an unrelated matter. He later took a plea deal on those charges.
So if the search warrant at Mar-a-Lago turns up evidence of other crimes, then that's fair game too.
posted by essexjan at 5:49 AM on September 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/plain_view_doctrine_0
suggests:
suggests:
Plain view doctrine is a rule of criminal procedure which allows an officer to seize evidence of a crime without a warrant when the evidence is clearly visible. This doctrine acts as an exception to the Fourth Amendment’s right to be free from searches without a warrant. Also referred to as clear-view doctrine or plain sight rule.posted by sebastienbailard at 6:03 AM on September 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
... In Horton v. California, the officer had a warrant to enter a robber’s home and seize property stolen through an armed robbery. The officer did not find the stolen goods but found the weapons that he suspected the robber used in the robbery in plain sight, and properly seized them under the plain view doctrine even though he did not have a warrant for the weapons.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChrisA0213/status/1565024895083450373
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:06 AM on September 1, 2022 [7 favorites]
Chris AndersonIt just isn't Trump's week, is it?
@ChrisA0213
This is what the #TruthSocial office looked like in Sarasota, Fl. on Wed. afternoon. There was no one inside the social media company’s headquarters, no receptionist, no business sign, no sign of CEO Devin Nunes, nothing with Trump’s name anywhere in the building.
@HeraldTribune
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:06 AM on September 1, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think the DOJ warrant was explicitly crafted to be airtight with regard to such bycatch, due to the specified inclusion of “records stored together with” the enumerated targets. And they were able to do that because TFG was an idiot and frequently intermingled classified files with other materials, and they had proof of that from the intermingled files returned previously. That’s ironclad justification for the search to collect pretty much everything in the area. Justified reasonable suspicion that classified files could be mixed in with nearly anything else.
That’s a serious unforced error on TFG’s part.
posted by notoriety public at 6:08 AM on September 1, 2022 [11 favorites]
That’s a serious unforced error on TFG’s part.
posted by notoriety public at 6:08 AM on September 1, 2022 [11 favorites]
Trump removed himself and other likely co-conspirators from the board of directors of TruthSocial in late June when the SEC started investigating the company’s relationship with the SPAC used as a back door IPO.
posted by interogative mood at 6:14 AM on September 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 6:14 AM on September 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
emptywheel: NO ONE PUTS ROGER STONE IN A BOX
The only way the people in possession of that more detailed inventory would assert, still, that there were 33 items on the original inventory is if item 1, Executive Grant of Clemency for Roger Jason Stone, Jr., and item 1A, info re: President of France, are the same object.posted by kingless at 6:33 AM on September 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
If there are 33 items, Trump granted clemency to Stone for something to do with a French President.
Let me repeat that: If the people who wrote this filing, who unlike you and I are privy to the detailed inventory of what was taken, say there were 33 items taken, then the Stone clemency itemized as item 1 in the inventory we do have contains — within it — information about a French President.
that bit continues:
Be careful of what you wish for, Donny, especially with the press coalition already asking Judge Cannon to unseal these sealed materials.posted by sebastienbailard at 7:03 AM on September 1, 2022 [6 favorites]
If Trump pardoned Roger Stone for something to do with — say — a hack-and-leak campaign, conducted in coordination with the GRU, targeting Emmanuel Macron, but then stuck the pardon in his desk drawer rather than sending it to DOJ to be published along with all his other utterly corrupt pardons, it’s not something he wants to be public. My guess is the potential Presidential Record and the handwritten note, also apparently found in his desk drawer, are similarly things Trump wouldn’t like to be public. Likewise the three classified, potentially privileged documents found in the same desk drawer, which he agrees would require a TS/SCI clearance to review.
Trump stuck his rat-fucker in his desk drawer. And now his efforts to gum up this investigation may make that public.
I have not yet heard this hypothesis in the news: The IC may already have collected intelligence that reflects that some of the materials have been dispersed to foreign actors. They could never, ever say this publicly, right now, but, I think that the chance that this has happened is not zero. They'd have to start shoring up sources and methods ASAP. Also: the National Archives has a complete list of missing documents, I assume. Are the missing files now found? Are there still more in the wind? What is in a desk drawer in Manhattan?
posted by zerobyproxy at 7:13 AM on September 1, 2022
posted by zerobyproxy at 7:13 AM on September 1, 2022
More enlightened speculation on the Macron hack, and how the GRU would have used Stone to release the information:
https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/08/23/a-roger-stone-pardon-for-macronleaks-isnt-as-crazy-as-it-sounds/
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:19 AM on September 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/08/23/a-roger-stone-pardon-for-macronleaks-isnt-as-crazy-as-it-sounds/
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:19 AM on September 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
In other Truth Social news, there's still no Android version.
BBC: Trump's Truth Social barred from Google Play
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:02 AM on September 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
BBC: Trump's Truth Social barred from Google Play
Google says the platform violates its policies on prohibiting content like physical threats and incitement to violence.Still in the Apple store :/
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:02 AM on September 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
I've been reading emptywheel for a long time, and I've learned to take her speculation with a big grain of salt.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:20 PM on September 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:20 PM on September 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
The hearing is over. No ruling on a special master from the bench. Looks like a more detailed inventory list might be coming.
posted by interogative mood at 12:31 PM on September 1, 2022
posted by interogative mood at 12:31 PM on September 1, 2022
No ruling on a special master from the bench. Looks like a more detailed inventory list might be coming.
*clapping excitedly like I'm gonna get a cookie*
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:41 PM on September 1, 2022 [6 favorites]
*clapping excitedly like I'm gonna get a cookie*
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:41 PM on September 1, 2022 [6 favorites]
I don't get the whole "Stone pardon" thing. Stone was pardoned. Is the suggestion that they found something like a letter to Trump from Stone saying "Hey, thanks for pardoning me in return for me doing the following list of absurdly unethical and illegal things at your behest"? Or the flip side of that - some sort of (perhaps unintentional) confession from Trump indicating specifically why he pardoned stone?
Or, perhaps a "secret pardon" for Stone, to be revealed in the event that he's indicted for something else in the future, after Trump was out of office? I'd like to imagine that if that sort of thing has not already been determined to be legally meaningless, it's only because it hasn't been adjudicated. But even if not, why write something specific about what he's being secretly pardoned for? Why not go the Gerald Ford route - "[I] do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974"?
I've read both of the emptywheel posts that have been linked here, but I came away feeling the same way I usually feel when reading her stuff: I must be too stupid, ignorant, and/or lazy to follow what she's saying. It always feels like I've suddenly been dropped without warning into the fully fleshed-out world of something like a flat earther, lizard-people-person, or a QAnonite (I mean stylistically, not in terms of subject matter, of course). Like, her stuff is always sprinkled with a bunch of things like "You may think this sounds unlikely, but I need to remind you that [insert vague linked reference to something]", and when you click on that link, you get to another article that she wrote eight years ago that's full of the same sort of thing.
I want to be clear that I'm not saying she is a conspiracy theorist - just that her writing style comes off kind of that way to me. She's obviously highly respected by a lot of people whose opinions I respect and generally trust. And I've often read summaries of things she's written made by such people, which usually do make sense to me. That's why I always feel "I must be too stupid, ignorant, and/or lazy to follow what she's saying", rather than "She's a nut".
posted by Flunkie at 1:04 PM on September 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
Or, perhaps a "secret pardon" for Stone, to be revealed in the event that he's indicted for something else in the future, after Trump was out of office? I'd like to imagine that if that sort of thing has not already been determined to be legally meaningless, it's only because it hasn't been adjudicated. But even if not, why write something specific about what he's being secretly pardoned for? Why not go the Gerald Ford route - "[I] do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974"?
I've read both of the emptywheel posts that have been linked here, but I came away feeling the same way I usually feel when reading her stuff: I must be too stupid, ignorant, and/or lazy to follow what she's saying. It always feels like I've suddenly been dropped without warning into the fully fleshed-out world of something like a flat earther, lizard-people-person, or a QAnonite (I mean stylistically, not in terms of subject matter, of course). Like, her stuff is always sprinkled with a bunch of things like "You may think this sounds unlikely, but I need to remind you that [insert vague linked reference to something]", and when you click on that link, you get to another article that she wrote eight years ago that's full of the same sort of thing.
I want to be clear that I'm not saying she is a conspiracy theorist - just that her writing style comes off kind of that way to me. She's obviously highly respected by a lot of people whose opinions I respect and generally trust. And I've often read summaries of things she's written made by such people, which usually do make sense to me. That's why I always feel "I must be too stupid, ignorant, and/or lazy to follow what she's saying", rather than "She's a nut".
posted by Flunkie at 1:04 PM on September 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
The Stone Pardon and the Macron file were found together (Items 1 and 1a). That doesn't mean they are related in terms of the act of pardoning Stone and the intelligence. Maybe they were together because he happened to show them off to Roger Stone, "Check this out Roger here's your pardon. Also check out this info on Macron. What do you think we can get for it from LePenn?"
posted by interogative mood at 1:30 PM on September 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 1:30 PM on September 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
The IC may already have collected intelligence that reflects that some of the materials have been dispersed to foreign actors. They could never, ever say this publicly, right now, but, I think that the chance that this has happened is not zero.
I think the chance that it has NOT happened IS zero. You think there are no spies, er, intelligence collectors, lurking around Mar-a-lago? The only mystery is if he had to be spied on covertly, if he boastfully showed it off to someone, or if he knowingly committed espionage.
posted by ctmf at 1:32 PM on September 1, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think the chance that it has NOT happened IS zero. You think there are no spies, er, intelligence collectors, lurking around Mar-a-lago? The only mystery is if he had to be spied on covertly, if he boastfully showed it off to someone, or if he knowingly committed espionage.
posted by ctmf at 1:32 PM on September 1, 2022 [7 favorites]
Garrett Graff has questions and speculation on the "SECRET//SCI" file:
I checked today with three officials who have worked at the absolute highest levels of the US intelligence community and two of them had *NEVER* seen such a marked document in their careers.posted by BungaDunga at 1:42 PM on September 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
"SCI" material is usually so sensitive that it is almost always "Top Secret".
It's impossible to know what type of document might be "Secret//SCI" but that highly unique combination of markings implies it's a piece of intelligence where someone was paying extremely special and precise attention to the information inside...
One thing that might fit that unique "Secret//SCI" category? Personal or financial gossip — e.g., potential kompromat! — about a foreign leader collected and reported by a US diplomat, e.g., a source who would not be considered "sensitive" and thus "Top Secret."
You think there are no spies, er, intelligence collectors, lurking around Mar-a-lago?
In fact, if I'm the IC, I have to assume all of that is compromised with or without evidence. That implicates quite a hassle protecting sources and deciding what's worth changing and what we just have to live with other people knowing.
posted by ctmf at 1:45 PM on September 1, 2022
In fact, if I'm the IC, I have to assume all of that is compromised with or without evidence. That implicates quite a hassle protecting sources and deciding what's worth changing and what we just have to live with other people knowing.
posted by ctmf at 1:45 PM on September 1, 2022
Hey, room full of potential US adversaries, look at this cool orange classified material cover sheet! Pretty bad-ass, right? Got lots of 'em in that closet over there, no locks or anything. Sometimes I'm out of town. Just saying.
posted by ctmf at 2:07 PM on September 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 2:07 PM on September 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
Good question! Let's check in with Trump’s lawyer about his security practices in his office:
Jesus H. She just told a national TV audience that TFG had many uncleared guests visit his Mar-a-Lago office where he stashed some of the most sensitive Top Secret/SCI documents of the US Gov't.
Smart lawyering.
George Conway🌻@gtconway3d·22h
were I in charge of the Deep State Program to Take Down #2XIMCRIMFPOTUS, and were she one of my agents, this is what I exactly would have her say
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:26 AM on September 2, 2022 [8 favorites]
Acyn@Acyn · Aug 31Lawrence Surtees@LSurteesTdot
Habba: I’m somebody who has been in his office.. I have firsthand knowledge. I have never seen that. That is not the way his office looks.. He has guests frequently there.
Jesus H. She just told a national TV audience that TFG had many uncleared guests visit his Mar-a-Lago office where he stashed some of the most sensitive Top Secret/SCI documents of the US Gov't.
Smart lawyering.
George Conway🌻@gtconway3d·22h
were I in charge of the Deep State Program to Take Down #2XIMCRIMFPOTUS, and were she one of my agents, this is what I exactly would have her say
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:26 AM on September 2, 2022 [8 favorites]
US judge hints she may grant Trump request for Mar-a-Lago ‘special master’
Is it going to be all those Trump-appointed judges who will take down the republic?
posted by mumimor at 1:50 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
Is it going to be all those Trump-appointed judges who will take down the republic?
posted by mumimor at 1:50 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
The only mystery is if he had to be spied on covertly, if he boastfully showed it off to someone, or if he knowingly committed espionage.
Pero, por que no los tres?
posted by From Bklyn at 2:06 AM on September 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
Pero, por que no los tres?
posted by From Bklyn at 2:06 AM on September 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
US judge hints she may grant Trump request for Mar-a-Lago ‘special master’
mumimor, I wouldn't panic yet - there was a dude on NPR this morning who's been a special master in a trial before and it sounds like they serve the judge in an assistant capacity. So it's entirely possible that the judge could be doing something like: "here, I'll appoint you the special master but all you gotta do is just sit around for a couple days and then go confirm that we didn't find anything. We just need to do this because it's the only way that asshole will shut up."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:08 AM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
mumimor, I wouldn't panic yet - there was a dude on NPR this morning who's been a special master in a trial before and it sounds like they serve the judge in an assistant capacity. So it's entirely possible that the judge could be doing something like: "here, I'll appoint you the special master but all you gotta do is just sit around for a couple days and then go confirm that we didn't find anything. We just need to do this because it's the only way that asshole will shut up."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:08 AM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
Trump's Tastes in Intelligence: Power and Leverage (NYT gift link, article from 9/1)
Trump Vows Pardons, Government Apology to Capitol Rioters if Elected (WaPo, gift link, ditto)
posted by box at 4:32 AM on September 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
Trump Vows Pardons, Government Apology to Capitol Rioters if Elected (WaPo, gift link, ditto)
posted by box at 4:32 AM on September 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
From box' second link:
“I am financially supporting people that are incredible and they were in my office actually two days ago, so they’re very much in my mind,” Trump said. “It’s a disgrace what they’ve done to them. What they’ve done to these people is disgraceful.”
A spokesman for Trump did not immediately respond to a request for comment about how the former president is financially supporting the rioters.
Trump has raised the prospect of pardons in previous interviews, as well, but the notion of an apology and financial support is a new element.
I bet that is a lie (the financial support). But who will fact check it? And convince the MAGA hats it's a lie?
posted by mumimor at 5:41 AM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
“I am financially supporting people that are incredible and they were in my office actually two days ago, so they’re very much in my mind,” Trump said. “It’s a disgrace what they’ve done to them. What they’ve done to these people is disgraceful.”
A spokesman for Trump did not immediately respond to a request for comment about how the former president is financially supporting the rioters.
Trump has raised the prospect of pardons in previous interviews, as well, but the notion of an apology and financial support is a new element.
I bet that is a lie (the financial support). But who will fact check it? And convince the MAGA hats it's a lie?
posted by mumimor at 5:41 AM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
Judge Cannon ordered this release of a more detailed inventory of items ceased.
posted by interogative mood at 8:18 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 8:18 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
tl;dr: Some of the "CLASSIFIED" folders were empty.
posted by Soliloquy at 8:27 AM on September 2, 2022
posted by Soliloquy at 8:27 AM on September 2, 2022
Okay, if he was keeping empty "classified" folders, that makes me even more certain that his motivation was "look, someone once gave me a folder with a 'top secret' mark on it, I'm special".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:35 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:35 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
Or the contents have gone somewhere?
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 8:38 AM on September 2, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 8:38 AM on September 2, 2022 [21 favorites]
It's totally ok. He gave the Russians security clearance before the hand off.
posted by mazola at 9:03 AM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mazola at 9:03 AM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
Okay, if he was keeping empty "classified" folders, that makes me even more certain that his motivation was "look, someone once gave me a folder with a 'top secret' mark on it, I'm special".
Or the contents of the empty folders are the 100+ documents marked confidential or above listed in the inventory; Trump just has them lying around loose, rather than where they are supposed to be.
posted by nubs at 9:31 AM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
Or the contents of the empty folders are the 100+ documents marked confidential or above listed in the inventory; Trump just has them lying around loose, rather than where they are supposed to be.
posted by nubs at 9:31 AM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
Or the contents of the empty folders are the 100+ documents marked confidential or above listed in the inventory; Trump just has them lying around loose, rather than where they are supposed to be.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. The fact that they're empty is horrifying. I just think this is further evidence of this being an instant-gratification dragon-hoard kind of thing as opposed to being a long-game thing where he planned to sell secrets to someone.
Mind you, he could still have taken the folders just to have as souvenirs and then may have been showing them off to some dude who said "dude, if you let me have this I'll get DeutscheBank to agree to that loan" and Trump spontaneously said "sweet, score! You got it!" That's entirely possible, and in character with the instant-result id thing I'm thinking happened.
Really my concern is that it sounds like some people are ascribing some 4-D chess game to him, and I don't think that he's in any way capable of that kind of planning - partly because of just plain ignorance, but partly because of impatience.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:47 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh, yeah, absolutely. The fact that they're empty is horrifying. I just think this is further evidence of this being an instant-gratification dragon-hoard kind of thing as opposed to being a long-game thing where he planned to sell secrets to someone.
Mind you, he could still have taken the folders just to have as souvenirs and then may have been showing them off to some dude who said "dude, if you let me have this I'll get DeutscheBank to agree to that loan" and Trump spontaneously said "sweet, score! You got it!" That's entirely possible, and in character with the instant-result id thing I'm thinking happened.
Really my concern is that it sounds like some people are ascribing some 4-D chess game to him, and I don't think that he's in any way capable of that kind of planning - partly because of just plain ignorance, but partly because of impatience.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:47 AM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have yet to see any evidence that would suggest to me that Trump wouldn't be trying to profit off of *anything* he could. Dude sold steaks and ties to make a few bucks, he's not sitting on the documents out of hubris.
posted by Jarcat at 9:57 AM on September 2, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 9:57 AM on September 2, 2022 [9 favorites]
Por que no dos?
Drumpf can take the documents out of hubris AND with the realization that he could sell state secrets to the highest bidder without thinking through the ramifications that his storage plan (keep it in an unlocked shed) would probably result in the people getting the information without paying him. This is pretty standard pathological narcissism - "Those are mine to do with what I want, including sell them."
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 10:05 AM on September 2, 2022 [6 favorites]
Drumpf can take the documents out of hubris AND with the realization that he could sell state secrets to the highest bidder without thinking through the ramifications that his storage plan (keep it in an unlocked shed) would probably result in the people getting the information without paying him. This is pretty standard pathological narcissism - "Those are mine to do with what I want, including sell them."
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 10:05 AM on September 2, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is pretty standard pathological narcissism - "Those are mine to do with what I want, including sell them."
Yeah, this is a better way of saying what I was trying to say. :-)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:17 AM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, this is a better way of saying what I was trying to say. :-)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:17 AM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
You'd have to take the documents out of the folders in order to photocopy them, just sayin'.
posted by SPrintF at 10:19 AM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 10:19 AM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
tl;dr: Some of the "CLASSIFIED" folders were empty.I honestly can't tell if this is:
- a dumb right-wing talking point ("see, there was nothing there anyway")
- sarcasm in response to such a dumb right-wing talking point
- a concerned "the actual documents are gone, who knows who has them now"
- something else entirely
- 18 US gov't docs/photos marked as top secret
- 54 US gov't docs/photos marked as secret
- 31 US gov't docs/photos marked as confidential
- 10,822 US gov't docs/photos without classification markings
- 48 empty folders marked as classified
- 42 empty folders marked with "Return to Staff Secretary/Military Aide"
- 1,591 magazines/newspapers/press articles/other print media
- 19 articles of clothing/gift items
- 33 books
A few of my personal I-Am-An-Uninformed-Dumbass thoughts on all that:
I think I read that having the "without classification markings" things is a crime regardless.
The number of empty folders marked as classified or to be returned is not all that far off from the number of classified docs/photos, suggesting it's at least possible that he's just too lazy to put stuff back in the appropriate folders.
Wondering about possible explanations for the huge number of documents that are not marked as classified. For example:
posted by Flunkie at 10:36 AM on September 2, 2022
I think I read that having the "without classification markings" things is a crime regardless.
The number of empty folders marked as classified or to be returned is not all that far off from the number of classified docs/photos, suggesting it's at least possible that he's just too lazy to put stuff back in the appropriate folders.
Wondering about possible explanations for the huge number of documents that are not marked as classified. For example:
- "I'll mix in the good stuff with a bunch of boring stuff. Nobody will ever find them! Donald, you are a genius!"
- January 20th, 11:53 AM EDT, Oval Office: "GRAB EVERYTHING THAT'S NOT BOLTED DOWN"
posted by Flunkie at 10:36 AM on September 2, 2022
Once documents are removed from folders marked classified, those documents are automatically unclassified. I am not a lawyer but I believe Trump is in the clear now.
posted by UN at 12:41 PM on September 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by UN at 12:41 PM on September 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
Yes UN, you are correct, and once a Top Secret is shared it is no longer a secret and so Trump is even more in the clear. (IAAL. IANTFGL)
posted by essexjan at 12:52 PM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 12:52 PM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
not only that but if one cannot bend over and lift up a retail store with one's hands, one cannot be guilty of shoplifting
i am a moonlawyer - respect my expertise
posted by pyramid termite at 12:57 PM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
i am a moonlawyer - respect my expertise
posted by pyramid termite at 12:57 PM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
BTW, I was today years old when I learned that 'TFG' meant 'the former guy' not 'that fucking guy'.
posted by essexjan at 12:58 PM on September 2, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 12:58 PM on September 2, 2022 [21 favorites]
essexjan, thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know either.
posted by terrapin at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by terrapin at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
'TFG' meant 'the former guy' not 'that fucking guy'
I read it as "dis fucking guy" in a NY accent
posted by ctmf at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
I read it as "dis fucking guy" in a NY accent
posted by ctmf at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
Same difference in this case?
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:21 PM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:21 PM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm sticking with FPOTUS because it feels more insulting.
posted by hippybear at 1:31 PM on September 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:31 PM on September 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
I first assumed TFG meant "that fucking guy", then perhaps a week later found out the actual backstory/explanation for it (Biden referred to Cheeto as "the former guy" in a speech), then went right on blithely using it and reading it the way I initially did.
posted by orange swan at 1:32 PM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 1:32 PM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
I always thought y'all were saying, "That Fucking Guy." The More You Know!💫
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:02 PM on September 2, 2022
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:02 PM on September 2, 2022
For the record, 45 will always be “that fucking guy” to me.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:39 PM on September 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 3:39 PM on September 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
[hansmoleman] I was saying "That Fucking Guy"... [/hansmoleman]
posted by Etrigan at 4:24 PM on September 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 4:24 PM on September 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
TFG may have started out as "the former guy" but it is definitely "that fucking guy" now.
posted by adamrice at 4:27 PM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 4:27 PM on September 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
Trump is basically just a slimy asshole. He'll latch onto and remember things that help be be a slimy asshole but don't mistake it for intelligence.
I'm very very confident that anyone in here could best him in any test of intelligence anyone cares to name. Like, I know testing intelligence is a wildly complicated thing but there are no measures in which that fucking guy doesn't fall short.
Doesn't mean he's not responsible for his actions or that he's not cunning and dangerous. But he's not like, hard to out smart.
posted by VTX at 4:59 PM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm very very confident that anyone in here could best him in any test of intelligence anyone cares to name. Like, I know testing intelligence is a wildly complicated thing but there are no measures in which that fucking guy doesn't fall short.
Doesn't mean he's not responsible for his actions or that he's not cunning and dangerous. But he's not like, hard to out smart.
posted by VTX at 4:59 PM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have to say I am concerned about the empty classified folders. WTF?
I am glad I am not a spy in another country right now...
Jesus, just such not what a...
OK, can't even finish that sentence.
We should be better than this. Ugh.
posted by Windopaene at 5:30 PM on September 2, 2022
I am glad I am not a spy in another country right now...
Jesus, just such not what a...
OK, can't even finish that sentence.
We should be better than this. Ugh.
posted by Windopaene at 5:30 PM on September 2, 2022
This is strange: a link on CNN's front page link titled "dozens of empty folders marked 'classified' found in mar-a-lago search" opens an ominous page saying
Anyone have an idea what's up with that?
posted by TwoToneRow at 5:36 PM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
"403 access forbidden, sorry, but you are not allowed access to this content, JUST WHAT ARE YOU UP TO?"link here
Anyone have an idea what's up with that?
posted by TwoToneRow at 5:36 PM on September 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
Anyone have an idea what's up with that?
Snarky IT person being snarky. 403 is just the standard HTTP error code for 'forbidden' and someone was being cute configuring the server's error message to include the "JUST WHAT ARE YOU UP TO?" bit.
posted by bcd at 5:40 PM on September 2, 2022
Snarky IT person being snarky. 403 is just the standard HTTP error code for 'forbidden' and someone was being cute configuring the server's error message to include the "JUST WHAT ARE YOU UP TO?" bit.
posted by bcd at 5:40 PM on September 2, 2022
IT person being snarky
That's reasonable, however the url "https://cnn.com/nosuchpage" leads to a different (non-threating) error page. Still probably someone's idea of a joke, but weirdly tailored for the specific trump-related link. Anyway, end-of-derail.
posted by TwoToneRow at 6:07 PM on September 2, 2022
That's reasonable, however the url "https://cnn.com/nosuchpage" leads to a different (non-threating) error page. Still probably someone's idea of a joke, but weirdly tailored for the specific trump-related link. Anyway, end-of-derail.
posted by TwoToneRow at 6:07 PM on September 2, 2022
That's reasonable, however the url "https://cnn.com/nosuchpage" leads to a different (non-threating) error page.The URL you linked to earlier is not on https://cnn.com, it's on https://www.preview.cnn.com. This implies (among other things) that they're not necessarily going to have the same default error pages.
Try https://www.preview.cnn.com/nosuchpage, and you'll see the snarky message.
posted by Flunkie at 6:14 PM on September 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
Trump is basically just a slimy asshole.
That is an insult to slimes and cloacae everywhere.
posted by y2karl at 7:41 PM on September 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
That is an insult to slimes and cloacae everywhere.
posted by y2karl at 7:41 PM on September 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
CNN has gone full MAGA.
I'm sure they're scrubbing their archives of anti-Trump content even as we speak.
posted by jamjam at 11:33 PM on September 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm sure they're scrubbing their archives of anti-Trump content even as we speak.
posted by jamjam at 11:33 PM on September 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
CNN has gone full MAGA.
Why do you feel that? I feel their coverage is pretty damning...
posted by mumimor at 1:57 AM on September 3, 2022
Why do you feel that? I feel their coverage is pretty damning...
posted by mumimor at 1:57 AM on September 3, 2022
Mod note: Before we get too deep in the CNN weeds, I'll note that this thread is already over 1,000 comments, so maybe a post actually about developments at CNN would be a better idea.
posted by taz (staff) at 2:18 AM on September 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 2:18 AM on September 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
NYT gift link: What the F.B.I. Seized From Mar-a-Lago, Illustrated
posted by hippybear at 5:01 AM on September 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 5:01 AM on September 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
Pretty good visualisation, though I think there should have been some way of distinguishing the colour of secret and top secret files. Perhaps the long-awaited vindication of the blink tag?
posted by entity447b at 9:14 AM on September 3, 2022
posted by entity447b at 9:14 AM on September 3, 2022
MSNBC's Chris Hayes
Tucked in the lobby of Manhattan’s Trump Tower is a bar called 45 Wine and Whiskey. At this Hard Rock Cafe knockoff, visitors can enjoy walls plastered with Trump presidential memorabilia that was likely snuck out of the White House—including a folder marked “classified.”posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:21 AM on September 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
Before we get too deep in the CNN weeds, I'll note that this thread is already over 1,000 comments, so maybe a post actually about developments at CNN would be a better idea.
We're also getting close to this FPP being archived. I would create a new one, but it would literally be "Mar a Lago Raided, pt. 2". I am sure someone could create a much better FPP with all the links to information we have learned in the last month. I wish I could, but I don't have the mental bandwidth, atm.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 10:32 AM on September 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
We're also getting close to this FPP being archived. I would create a new one, but it would literally be "Mar a Lago Raided, pt. 2". I am sure someone could create a much better FPP with all the links to information we have learned in the last month. I wish I could, but I don't have the mental bandwidth, atm.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 10:32 AM on September 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
So: I've heard otherwise that all "classified" folders have logs and markings that would let people trace what WAS in the folder if it's found empty. And - the affidavit suggests that there are documents which are marked "confidential" just loose, along with the empty folders.
So - it's conceivable that some of those loose documents might go with some of those empty folders. At least I'm hoping that someone is ascertaining that now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:46 PM on September 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
So - it's conceivable that some of those loose documents might go with some of those empty folders. At least I'm hoping that someone is ascertaining that now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:46 PM on September 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I wonder how many others are rechecking what they turned over?
After Mar-a-Lago search, Meadows turns over more texts and emails to Archives | CNN Politics
After Mar-a-Lago search, Meadows turns over more texts and emails to Archives | CNN Politics
CNNposted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:18 PM on September 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
—
Within a week of the FBI search of former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort, former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows handed over texts and emails to the National Archives that he had not previously turned over from his time in the administration, sources familiar with the matter tell CNN.
So: I've heard otherwise that all "classified" folders have logs and markings that would let people trace what WAS in the folder if it's found empty.
In theory. The thing is, most of those rules are applied to finished products that are going to leave the work area. When you work in a secure area, it's easy to get lax about works in progress, since they aren't going anywhere but (eventually) the shredder in the corner. I'd say 99% of the (lower level) classified or otherwise sensitive stuff I see is "marked" as in, top and bottom of the page kind of thing, but not serialized, logged, packaged properly, etc. - and that's ok because it's staying in the area where everyone is authorized to see it.
But then once you're out of the habit of all the formalities, it's also easy to forget to implement them when you need them, or to start considering them a nuisance and carrying around documents "just for a minute, and I'll keep it with me and personally control it the whole time". And then once you're doing that, it's easy for the standards to slip until everyone is basically just casual with documents all the time.
When I'm imagining the Trump administration at work in the WH, the scene does not include people scrupulously following annoying marking and handling rules.
posted by ctmf at 6:07 PM on September 3, 2022 [12 favorites]
In theory. The thing is, most of those rules are applied to finished products that are going to leave the work area. When you work in a secure area, it's easy to get lax about works in progress, since they aren't going anywhere but (eventually) the shredder in the corner. I'd say 99% of the (lower level) classified or otherwise sensitive stuff I see is "marked" as in, top and bottom of the page kind of thing, but not serialized, logged, packaged properly, etc. - and that's ok because it's staying in the area where everyone is authorized to see it.
But then once you're out of the habit of all the formalities, it's also easy to forget to implement them when you need them, or to start considering them a nuisance and carrying around documents "just for a minute, and I'll keep it with me and personally control it the whole time". And then once you're doing that, it's easy for the standards to slip until everyone is basically just casual with documents all the time.
When I'm imagining the Trump administration at work in the WH, the scene does not include people scrupulously following annoying marking and handling rules.
posted by ctmf at 6:07 PM on September 3, 2022 [12 favorites]
The DOJ may have reservations about prosecuting Trump but I suspect if they won’t have any problem going after some staffer if it turns out they were routinely failing to follow marking and other procedures when putting together folders of classified material to send to Trump.
posted by interogative mood at 6:18 PM on September 3, 2022
posted by interogative mood at 6:18 PM on September 3, 2022
When I'm imagining the Trump administration at work in the WH, the scene does not include people scrupulously following annoying marking and handling rules.
OTOH, the people handing stuff over to them may have been extra scrupulous for just that reason.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:59 PM on September 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
OTOH, the people handing stuff over to them may have been extra scrupulous for just that reason.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:59 PM on September 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
In theory. The thing is, most of those rules are applied to finished products that are going to leave the work area....
Oh, I was using that thought to grasp at a straw that "hey, hang on, maybe most of the documents that were in those 43 empty folders are still in our possession, so things aren't QUITE as horrifically bad as we feared."
I mean, the whole thing's still a fuck sundae either way.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:40 PM on September 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh, I was using that thought to grasp at a straw that "hey, hang on, maybe most of the documents that were in those 43 empty folders are still in our possession, so things aren't QUITE as horrifically bad as we feared."
I mean, the whole thing's still a fuck sundae either way.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:40 PM on September 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
The DOJ may have reservations about prosecuting Trump but I suspect if they won’t have any problem going after some staffer if
I have a feeling there is no "some staffer" because it's anybody and everybody and nobody kept any more track than they did migrant children stolen from their families at the border. All the more reason to prosecute 45 for running a loose ship, but I suspect the record keeping trail goes cold just as soon as he took possession of the papers.
posted by rhizome at 11:20 PM on September 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I have a feeling there is no "some staffer" because it's anybody and everybody and nobody kept any more track than they did migrant children stolen from their families at the border. All the more reason to prosecute 45 for running a loose ship, but I suspect the record keeping trail goes cold just as soon as he took possession of the papers.
posted by rhizome at 11:20 PM on September 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Trump speech (C-SPAN) yesterday in Wilkes-Barre, PA, in which FPOTUS accuses John Fetterman of using heroin, cocaine, meth, and fentanyl.
posted by box at 5:32 AM on September 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 5:32 AM on September 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
^Donald Trump branded Joe Biden an "enemy of the state" Saturday, as he hit back at the US president's assertion that the Republican and his supporters are undermining American democracy and slammed last month's FBI raid of his Florida home. (AFP via Yahoo)
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:19 AM on September 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:19 AM on September 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
At the same time?
posted by acb at 8:37 AM on September 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by acb at 8:37 AM on September 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Same speech, Trump's first since the FBI executed the warrant. Less than five minutes in, he declared Biden an "enemy of the state."
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:42 AM on September 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:42 AM on September 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Fetterman's alleged drug use is minute fourteen.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:43 AM on September 4, 2022
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:43 AM on September 4, 2022
Same speech, Trump praises Putin and says Xi is 'smart' for 'ruling China with an iron fist'.
posted by essexjan at 9:33 AM on September 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 9:33 AM on September 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
This thread is over 1000 comments long and four days away from being archived, so I've created a new Mar-a-Lago search/investigation of Trump's possession and use of classified materials thread and suggest that we continue our discussion, posting of updates, and eating of popcorn, etc. over there.
posted by orange swan at 9:42 AM on September 4, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 9:42 AM on September 4, 2022 [20 favorites]
Mod note: I've added that to the US Politics sidebar, so hopefully that will make it more visible.
posted by taz (staff) at 10:20 AM on September 4, 2022
posted by taz (staff) at 10:20 AM on September 4, 2022
ty orange swan!
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 10:33 AM on September 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 10:33 AM on September 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
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