27% of US Adults Say They’re So Stressed They Can’t Function: APA survey
October 22, 2022 7:11 PM Subscribe
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- loup
^what latkes said.
posted by stray at 7:38 PM on October 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by stray at 7:38 PM on October 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
The end has some good advice.
"Don’t look for a rescuer... Instead, seek out emotionally supportive friends and family who see you as capable and can help you focus on next steps for addressing your concerns."
True though negotiations with National Bank of Mom can be stressful.
posted by clavdivs at 7:44 PM on October 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
"Don’t look for a rescuer... Instead, seek out emotionally supportive friends and family who see you as capable and can help you focus on next steps for addressing your concerns."
True though negotiations with National Bank of Mom can be stressful.
posted by clavdivs at 7:44 PM on October 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
Weird that climate itself is not named - I guess they didn't ask about this?
As I understand it, these are things clients/patients are talking about as causes for their anxiety/stress. Therapists aren’t going to ask “what about the climate?”
Similarly, “inflation” in these instances isn’t some politically-loaded term. It’s just a term clients are using to mean “it’s harder making ends meet”. There’s no political import to it. It’s just what patients are saying. It’s therapy. Not a poly-sci class.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:44 PM on October 22, 2022 [29 favorites]
As I understand it, these are things clients/patients are talking about as causes for their anxiety/stress. Therapists aren’t going to ask “what about the climate?”
Similarly, “inflation” in these instances isn’t some politically-loaded term. It’s just a term clients are using to mean “it’s harder making ends meet”. There’s no political import to it. It’s just what patients are saying. It’s therapy. Not a poly-sci class.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:44 PM on October 22, 2022 [29 favorites]
It's interesting, because all those 4 phenomena listed above -- inflation, crime, politics, and the racial climate -- have arguably been worse (in some cases, far worse) at various points in the last 50-60 years.
I think this is as much about people's perceptions as anything. We live in a very different information environment from even 20 years ago, thanks to changes in the media ecosystem. We are just not equipped psychologically for what we're being bombarded with now.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:47 PM on October 22, 2022 [74 favorites]
I think this is as much about people's perceptions as anything. We live in a very different information environment from even 20 years ago, thanks to changes in the media ecosystem. We are just not equipped psychologically for what we're being bombarded with now.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:47 PM on October 22, 2022 [74 favorites]
It isn't that nothing has ever been this bad before. It's that this many things have never been this bad all at once. There are dozens of things giving me existential dread right now that literally didn't exist fifty years ago.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:54 PM on October 22, 2022 [39 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:54 PM on October 22, 2022 [39 favorites]
The article reports on the results of an online survey of US Adults. There's a link at the end to the survey. Here is the question covering sources of stress:
Q6255 Please indicate how significant a source of stress the following is in your life.
[COLUMNS]
c1. Not at all significant
c2. Not very significant
c3. Somewhat significant
c4. Very significant
[EACH STATEMENT SHOULD BE SHOWN ON OWN SCREEN WITH QUESTION TEXT.]
[ROW; RANDOMIZE SCREENS]
r1. Climate change/Global warming
R2. Mass shootings
r3. Gun violence in general
r4. Rise in suicide rates
R5. Violence and crime
r6. Increased global tension/conflict
R7. Healthcare
R8. Change in abortion laws
R9. Immigration
R19. The coronavirus pandemic
R20. The racial climate in the U.S.
R21. Inflation
R22. Monkeypox outbreak
There's a separate section about money (personal finances) as opposed to inflation. It looks like this is probably a regular survey as several questions are marked "trend" or "new."
There's even a link to the results if you want to look.
posted by Emmy Noether at 8:05 PM on October 22, 2022 [27 favorites]
Q6255 Please indicate how significant a source of stress the following is in your life.
[COLUMNS]
c1. Not at all significant
c2. Not very significant
c3. Somewhat significant
c4. Very significant
[EACH STATEMENT SHOULD BE SHOWN ON OWN SCREEN WITH QUESTION TEXT.]
[ROW; RANDOMIZE SCREENS]
r1. Climate change/Global warming
R2. Mass shootings
r3. Gun violence in general
r4. Rise in suicide rates
R5. Violence and crime
r6. Increased global tension/conflict
R7. Healthcare
R8. Change in abortion laws
R9. Immigration
R19. The coronavirus pandemic
R20. The racial climate in the U.S.
R21. Inflation
R22. Monkeypox outbreak
There's a separate section about money (personal finances) as opposed to inflation. It looks like this is probably a regular survey as several questions are marked "trend" or "new."
There's even a link to the results if you want to look.
posted by Emmy Noether at 8:05 PM on October 22, 2022 [27 favorites]
Climate change is ranked 11th most significant source of stress (61%), just behind the racial climate in the US (62%), the coronavirus pandemic (63%), and the current political climate (66%). 47% ranked the monkeypox outbreak as a significant source of stress which is a little baffling to me.
posted by meowzilla at 8:27 PM on October 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 8:27 PM on October 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
It's interesting, because all those 4 phenomena listed above -- inflation, crime, politics, and the racial climate -- have arguably been worse (in some cases, far worse) at various points in the last 50-60 years.
If I fall down the stairs and break my leg, I’m fucking upset! I’m not okay with it because I was shot in the head 40 years ago.
posted by rhymedirective at 8:34 PM on October 22, 2022 [45 favorites]
If I fall down the stairs and break my leg, I’m fucking upset! I’m not okay with it because I was shot in the head 40 years ago.
posted by rhymedirective at 8:34 PM on October 22, 2022 [45 favorites]
None of our hierarchies of needs are in great shape right now.
posted by bleep at 8:49 PM on October 22, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by bleep at 8:49 PM on October 22, 2022 [13 favorites]
And humans are notoriously bad at correctly identifying what's bothering them.
posted by bleep at 8:50 PM on October 22, 2022 [30 favorites]
posted by bleep at 8:50 PM on October 22, 2022 [30 favorites]
"The racial climate in the US" lends itself to at least three interpretations on the part of the answerer.
Maybe it doesn't matter and misses the point of the exercise, but if you're using this as some sort of proxy for "how are people prioritizing the collection of monsters lurking in their closets," that's the one category where I checked and double-checked my initial answer against my preconceptions and thought "you could be anxious about this for a number of reasons that would start from very different places."
Like, Adolph Reed, Glenn Lowry, Nikole Hannah-Jones, this one right-wing prepper I know from my regional subreddit, and the DEI coordinator in my HR department are all starting from different places and experiencing different kinds of anxiety about "the racial climate."
posted by mph at 8:54 PM on October 22, 2022 [24 favorites]
Maybe it doesn't matter and misses the point of the exercise, but if you're using this as some sort of proxy for "how are people prioritizing the collection of monsters lurking in their closets," that's the one category where I checked and double-checked my initial answer against my preconceptions and thought "you could be anxious about this for a number of reasons that would start from very different places."
Like, Adolph Reed, Glenn Lowry, Nikole Hannah-Jones, this one right-wing prepper I know from my regional subreddit, and the DEI coordinator in my HR department are all starting from different places and experiencing different kinds of anxiety about "the racial climate."
posted by mph at 8:54 PM on October 22, 2022 [24 favorites]
It isn't that nothing has ever been this bad before. It's that this many things have never been this bad all at once.
I accept that as a sincere subjective statement of feeling. I'm not sure it's objectively true... even for privileged first-worlders like (I assume) all or most of us here are.
What about during the early 1940s, when Europe and Asia were aflame with fascist-insitgated war and genocide, and millions of Americans were being shipped off to take part in a global war on 2 fronts?
What about during the late 1960s, when riots, assassinations, Vietnam, and nearly unchecked pollution were all running rampant, and it was widely believed that mass global famine might be only a few years away -- if nuclear war didn't get us first?
If I fall down the stairs and break my leg, I’m fucking upset! I’m not okay with it because I was shot in the head 40 years ago.
Again, I accept this emphatic statement of feeling! But I am certainly not telling you what you should or should not be okay with.
However, I will repeat that I think a lot of our current anxiety is a result of our radically altered information environment. This is NOT a statement that "everything is OK".
But I do suggest that people should consider how they absorb information, what information they're absorbing, and whether all of it is actually useful and necessary.
Making changes to your media diet *can* change your emotional state significantly for the better... or for the worse.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:56 PM on October 22, 2022 [79 favorites]
I accept that as a sincere subjective statement of feeling. I'm not sure it's objectively true... even for privileged first-worlders like (I assume) all or most of us here are.
What about during the early 1940s, when Europe and Asia were aflame with fascist-insitgated war and genocide, and millions of Americans were being shipped off to take part in a global war on 2 fronts?
What about during the late 1960s, when riots, assassinations, Vietnam, and nearly unchecked pollution were all running rampant, and it was widely believed that mass global famine might be only a few years away -- if nuclear war didn't get us first?
If I fall down the stairs and break my leg, I’m fucking upset! I’m not okay with it because I was shot in the head 40 years ago.
Again, I accept this emphatic statement of feeling! But I am certainly not telling you what you should or should not be okay with.
However, I will repeat that I think a lot of our current anxiety is a result of our radically altered information environment. This is NOT a statement that "everything is OK".
But I do suggest that people should consider how they absorb information, what information they're absorbing, and whether all of it is actually useful and necessary.
Making changes to your media diet *can* change your emotional state significantly for the better... or for the worse.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:56 PM on October 22, 2022 [79 favorites]
Whenever I can make someone's life less stressful it's a little bit of a win for me. There are lots of options for those that want to work on stress in their own lives.
Fixing systemic problems can lower stress, but most of us have few opportunities to do this. Choosing news sources and companions wisely can make a big difference in the amount of introduced stress. Counseling or other learning tools to identify stress and to help us not worsen it with our reactions can also help. Ashwagandha reduces the hormonal effects and perception of stress.
posted by Emmy Noether at 9:01 PM on October 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Fixing systemic problems can lower stress, but most of us have few opportunities to do this. Choosing news sources and companions wisely can make a big difference in the amount of introduced stress. Counseling or other learning tools to identify stress and to help us not worsen it with our reactions can also help. Ashwagandha reduces the hormonal effects and perception of stress.
posted by Emmy Noether at 9:01 PM on October 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Why isn't the existence of labradoodles on this poll?
They weren't around when I was a kid. What even are they.
posted by not_on_display at 9:34 PM on October 22, 2022 [57 favorites]
They weren't around when I was a kid. What even are they.
posted by not_on_display at 9:34 PM on October 22, 2022 [57 favorites]
It's interesting, because all those 4 phenomena listed above -- inflation, crime, politics, and the racial climate -- have arguably been worse (in some cases, far worse) at various points in the last 50-60 years.
I think this is as much about people's perceptions as anything. We live in a very different information environment from even 20 years ago, thanks to changes in the media ecosystem. We are just not equipped psychologically for what we're being bombarded with now.
I'll shoot with a proposal that's been rattling in my head for a bit here, please tear it up: The US was a more fascist-like/christo-nationalist state in the late 1980s, early 1990s, than today, thanks to two terms of Reagan and a cap of H.W. Bush.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 9:48 PM on October 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think this is as much about people's perceptions as anything. We live in a very different information environment from even 20 years ago, thanks to changes in the media ecosystem. We are just not equipped psychologically for what we're being bombarded with now.
I'll shoot with a proposal that's been rattling in my head for a bit here, please tear it up: The US was a more fascist-like/christo-nationalist state in the late 1980s, early 1990s, than today, thanks to two terms of Reagan and a cap of H.W. Bush.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 9:48 PM on October 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
oh no Joe I'd say between the twenties and forties then you had the 60s and the 70s. I know I asked my grandmother. I asked my mother about the Vietnam and all that and she just said blankly I had three kids to raise, a job. I'd say 1968 was really terrible year but has anybody seen the weather lately
posted by clavdivs at 10:13 PM on October 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 10:13 PM on October 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
Perfectly fair point. I was thinking nearer term.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 10:21 PM on October 22, 2022
posted by JoeXIII007 at 10:21 PM on October 22, 2022
Speaking only for myself, I'm under no illusion that things are worse now than they ever have been previously. I could certainly stand to be more aware of historical context, but I've managed enough to know how awful even much of the recent past was, to say nothing of the horrors lurking back before a recent and brief period of relative global peace.
The part that causes me anxiety is not, in isolation, the state of the world today on any given axis of measurement. The stressful bit, rather, is my subjective belief that on a large number of important criteria we are not progressing, however fitfully and slowly, towards a better future, but instead stand poised for disastrous regression in many areas. And that both systemic flaws and powerful self-interested actors are contributing greatly to this regression.
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:36 PM on October 22, 2022 [53 favorites]
The part that causes me anxiety is not, in isolation, the state of the world today on any given axis of measurement. The stressful bit, rather, is my subjective belief that on a large number of important criteria we are not progressing, however fitfully and slowly, towards a better future, but instead stand poised for disastrous regression in many areas. And that both systemic flaws and powerful self-interested actors are contributing greatly to this regression.
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:36 PM on October 22, 2022 [53 favorites]
Just randomly came across this wonderful quote from Toni Morrison:
This is precisely the time when artists go to work. There is no time for despair, no place for self-pity, no need for silence, no room for fear. We speak, we write, we do language. That is how civilizations heal.
I know the world is bruised and bleeding, and though it is important not to ignore its pain, it is also critical to refuse to succumb to its malevolence. Like failure, chaos contains information that can lead to knowledge — even wisdom.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:44 PM on October 22, 2022 [24 favorites]
This is precisely the time when artists go to work. There is no time for despair, no place for self-pity, no need for silence, no room for fear. We speak, we write, we do language. That is how civilizations heal.
I know the world is bruised and bleeding, and though it is important not to ignore its pain, it is also critical to refuse to succumb to its malevolence. Like failure, chaos contains information that can lead to knowledge — even wisdom.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:44 PM on October 22, 2022 [24 favorites]
Making changes to your media diet *can* change your emotional state significantly for the better... or for the worse.
I quit Facebook, Metafilter, and other social media sites after Trump's election. It did help improve my depression about and ability to cope with the coming waves of global fascism, a lot of it economically and logistically underwritten and supported by Russians (still).
But the years of increasingly odd weather, a significant drop-off of insect life, and forest fires that are blanketing our region with smoke and making the air unsafe to breathe post-Trump have not been avoidable by switching off the news or turning off the computer.
I generally agree with your suggestion as a general matter of mental hygiene, but there are changes happening that are larger than corrupt media outlets.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:55 PM on October 22, 2022 [49 favorites]
I quit Facebook, Metafilter, and other social media sites after Trump's election. It did help improve my depression about and ability to cope with the coming waves of global fascism, a lot of it economically and logistically underwritten and supported by Russians (still).
But the years of increasingly odd weather, a significant drop-off of insect life, and forest fires that are blanketing our region with smoke and making the air unsafe to breathe post-Trump have not been avoidable by switching off the news or turning off the computer.
I generally agree with your suggestion as a general matter of mental hygiene, but there are changes happening that are larger than corrupt media outlets.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:55 PM on October 22, 2022 [49 favorites]
The single stressor that's undeniably unprecedented is the dominance of H. sap over the rest of the biosphere. There are more of us and more of our livestock, both animal and plant, than have ever existed before and we are consequently doing our level best to elbow every other living thing aside.
We have dominion over the Earth and no idea what to do about that; we broke it so it's on us to buy it, but we don't know what we're going to do with it once we've taken it home.
And everywhere is more crowded with us than it has ever been. The relentless increase in that pressure is driving us all mad.
posted by flabdablet at 11:00 PM on October 22, 2022 [16 favorites]
We have dominion over the Earth and no idea what to do about that; we broke it so it's on us to buy it, but we don't know what we're going to do with it once we've taken it home.
And everywhere is more crowded with us than it has ever been. The relentless increase in that pressure is driving us all mad.
posted by flabdablet at 11:00 PM on October 22, 2022 [16 favorites]
47% ranked the monkeypox outbreak as a significant source of stress which is a little baffling to me.
Guessing I'd be an outlier because I think we're supposed to answer from as simple a footing as possible, i.e. is monkeypox as a personal health issue stressful to you?
But because I'm a glutton for punishment and my dumb hobby is trying to understand how each new media event is being picked up and carried along by the culture war, monkeypox stressed me out some because the meta of that quickly became to me, as with so many of these things, "is there any social cohesion left to address this?"
Will we talk about it truthfully?
Will we act to curb it in a meaningful way?
Will it become a new social nexus for reaction, nihilism, or xenophobia?
I think paratrooping instilled in me a level of equanimity about things going wrong that extended to several things going wrong all at once. But that equanimity was grounded in ideas like, "I am surrounded by other highly trained paratroopers," "my jumpmaster is a serious, conscientious person," "my chute was packed by someone who had to sign their name on it," and "despite the differences we all express amongst ourselves, even to the point of watching two guys beat each other stupid over the relative merits of Heat vs. The Godfather, cohesion is high in my unit and we will all take care of each other when it comes down to it."
One of the hard things about aging has been coming to understand that the broader social cohesion I thought I was experiencing even outside my paratrooping years is not something everyone felt, believed in, or experienced as just.
So when a new illness comes along, or any other crisis, I don't have a lot of equanimity to spare when I see it sucked into the culture war maelstrom and processed as yet another thing for people to fight about.
The one thing that restores some of my equanimity comes from reading Gary Gerstle's writing about political orders. His thesis is that we're living through the end of the Neoliberal Order (which supplanted the New Deal Order), and that means a great many things are up in the air in ways we may not really be able to imagine, even as I'm getting to a point in life where flexibility and equanimity are going to diminish. So there's a huge amount of risk right now -- Donald Trump is more frightening to me as a symptom than he is as an individual political actor -- but there's also a huge amount of promise. My 18-year-old son gives me a great deal of hope, for instance, because he does stuff like "contextualize what he reads on Twitter and wait to form an opinion" far better than most of my generational peers.
More broadly, it's interesting and sad to see the stark generational lines in this survey. The leap between Boomers/GenX and Millenials/GenZ in terms of their simple ability to deal with what's going on every day. The latter are the generations that have put things like acceptance of socialist ideas on the map again, after nearly four decades of neoliberal reaction (including the sainted Clintons) and they're the generations most profoundly affected by the cascading failures of the current, dying political order. I am curious to see which way they go and what they come up with. If they're like my kid, that could be okay.
posted by mph at 11:04 PM on October 22, 2022 [31 favorites]
Guessing I'd be an outlier because I think we're supposed to answer from as simple a footing as possible, i.e. is monkeypox as a personal health issue stressful to you?
But because I'm a glutton for punishment and my dumb hobby is trying to understand how each new media event is being picked up and carried along by the culture war, monkeypox stressed me out some because the meta of that quickly became to me, as with so many of these things, "is there any social cohesion left to address this?"
Will we talk about it truthfully?
Will we act to curb it in a meaningful way?
Will it become a new social nexus for reaction, nihilism, or xenophobia?
I think paratrooping instilled in me a level of equanimity about things going wrong that extended to several things going wrong all at once. But that equanimity was grounded in ideas like, "I am surrounded by other highly trained paratroopers," "my jumpmaster is a serious, conscientious person," "my chute was packed by someone who had to sign their name on it," and "despite the differences we all express amongst ourselves, even to the point of watching two guys beat each other stupid over the relative merits of Heat vs. The Godfather, cohesion is high in my unit and we will all take care of each other when it comes down to it."
One of the hard things about aging has been coming to understand that the broader social cohesion I thought I was experiencing even outside my paratrooping years is not something everyone felt, believed in, or experienced as just.
So when a new illness comes along, or any other crisis, I don't have a lot of equanimity to spare when I see it sucked into the culture war maelstrom and processed as yet another thing for people to fight about.
The one thing that restores some of my equanimity comes from reading Gary Gerstle's writing about political orders. His thesis is that we're living through the end of the Neoliberal Order (which supplanted the New Deal Order), and that means a great many things are up in the air in ways we may not really be able to imagine, even as I'm getting to a point in life where flexibility and equanimity are going to diminish. So there's a huge amount of risk right now -- Donald Trump is more frightening to me as a symptom than he is as an individual political actor -- but there's also a huge amount of promise. My 18-year-old son gives me a great deal of hope, for instance, because he does stuff like "contextualize what he reads on Twitter and wait to form an opinion" far better than most of my generational peers.
More broadly, it's interesting and sad to see the stark generational lines in this survey. The leap between Boomers/GenX and Millenials/GenZ in terms of their simple ability to deal with what's going on every day. The latter are the generations that have put things like acceptance of socialist ideas on the map again, after nearly four decades of neoliberal reaction (including the sainted Clintons) and they're the generations most profoundly affected by the cascading failures of the current, dying political order. I am curious to see which way they go and what they come up with. If they're like my kid, that could be okay.
posted by mph at 11:04 PM on October 22, 2022 [31 favorites]
@jelenawoehr: It’s wild to me how everyone has roughly the same “world is ending” feeling right now but some people feel that way because of fascism and climate change while others feel that way, with equal intensity, because of drag queens at libraries and singular they/them pronouns.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:26 AM on October 23, 2022 [66 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:26 AM on October 23, 2022 [66 favorites]
Things are objectively worse now than they have been in most people's lifetimes, though they have probably been worse many times before we were born. 1967 and 68 were terrible, but also years of promise, and the aughts were a disaster, and wrong in every way, but democracy and civil rights weren't being undermined like they are now. This is as seen from a Western perspective, since this survey was made in the US.
If you look at the upcoming mid-terms and you are not worried, you either know something the rest of us don't, and then you should tell us so we can sleep sounder, or you are not paying attention. The entire Republican Party is out to demolish democracy and they may succeed.
We have not been as close to nuclear war since the Cuba Crisis, which was before I was born.
The climate and biodiversity crises may lead to our children and grandchildren struggling in a continuous disaster and the largest countries like the US, Russia, India and China are not doing much to change it (now head back to the US midterms for your spiralling anxiety, or look at the insanity of Putin or your totalitarian of choice).
The economy hasn't been as unequal as today since before WWII, which also means healthcare is unevenly distributed.
As an aside, I wonder how many of these people have un-diagnosed long COVID? Mine had almost gone away, and now it has returned with a vengeance after my booster shot. The long COVID symptoms enhance my usual PTSD and anxiety symptoms because I am literally weaker. When I walk the dog, I'm scared of falling all the time. Constant aches tire me out.
posted by mumimor at 2:31 AM on October 23, 2022 [25 favorites]
If you look at the upcoming mid-terms and you are not worried, you either know something the rest of us don't, and then you should tell us so we can sleep sounder, or you are not paying attention. The entire Republican Party is out to demolish democracy and they may succeed.
We have not been as close to nuclear war since the Cuba Crisis, which was before I was born.
The climate and biodiversity crises may lead to our children and grandchildren struggling in a continuous disaster and the largest countries like the US, Russia, India and China are not doing much to change it (now head back to the US midterms for your spiralling anxiety, or look at the insanity of Putin or your totalitarian of choice).
The economy hasn't been as unequal as today since before WWII, which also means healthcare is unevenly distributed.
As an aside, I wonder how many of these people have un-diagnosed long COVID? Mine had almost gone away, and now it has returned with a vengeance after my booster shot. The long COVID symptoms enhance my usual PTSD and anxiety symptoms because I am literally weaker. When I walk the dog, I'm scared of falling all the time. Constant aches tire me out.
posted by mumimor at 2:31 AM on October 23, 2022 [25 favorites]
I'm stressed about the American Psychological Association becoming such an outright product/service lobbyist group that they hire a polling firm instead of using some of the research practitioners that make up their membership to do this research and then publish it as PR marketing release rather than as peer reviewed science in one of their own journals all in order to chase clicks and media attention.
posted by srboisvert at 5:39 AM on October 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 5:39 AM on October 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
I don't know much about the American Psychological Association but some of this is oddly de-politisizing or has a hidden ideology.
It merely reflects the 'hidden' ideology of American corporate media, whether it's broadcast or social media.
So when a new illness comes along, or any other crisis, I don't have a lot of equanimity to spare when I see it sucked into the culture war maelstrom and processed as yet another thing for people to fight about.
The one thing that restores some of my equanimity comes from reading Gary Gerstle's writing about political orders. His thesis is that we're living through the end of the Neoliberal Order...
Not familiar with Gerstle but this sounds very interesting. George Monbiot has a similar thesis more rooted in our material environment: there is currently a schism in the ruling order between capitalists who are willing to accept some amount of regulation in the interest of a equitable and sustainable society vs capitalists unwilling to accept any significant regulation at all. Coincidentally many of those from anti-regulation sect come from the resource extraction industries and their affiliated financiers and propaganda outlets.
posted by viborg at 5:42 AM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
It merely reflects the 'hidden' ideology of American corporate media, whether it's broadcast or social media.
So when a new illness comes along, or any other crisis, I don't have a lot of equanimity to spare when I see it sucked into the culture war maelstrom and processed as yet another thing for people to fight about.
The one thing that restores some of my equanimity comes from reading Gary Gerstle's writing about political orders. His thesis is that we're living through the end of the Neoliberal Order...
Not familiar with Gerstle but this sounds very interesting. George Monbiot has a similar thesis more rooted in our material environment: there is currently a schism in the ruling order between capitalists who are willing to accept some amount of regulation in the interest of a equitable and sustainable society vs capitalists unwilling to accept any significant regulation at all. Coincidentally many of those from anti-regulation sect come from the resource extraction industries and their affiliated financiers and propaganda outlets.
posted by viborg at 5:42 AM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
We have literal studied-multiple-times-over documented proof that social media does to people what the chamber of a gun does to a bullet: it traps them in a claustrophobic space and mounts such insane pressure that they literally explode.
We talk about this constantly, because the modus operandi of social media is to talk constantly about all the things that we hate and fear that prove how right we are to be anxious and angry and desperate. Yet at the same time, there is a disconnect between talking ABOUT the impact that this has in the abstract, and NOTICING the concrete impact on ourselves. Which is to say: we talk constantly about how social media deteriorates our states of mind in general, while remaining convinced that our specific states of mind are purely rational and derived solely from the exact actual literal state of the world at all times.
Things are not great today, but our perception of how things are is even bleaker. Ironically, about three-fourths of the categories polled about here are influenced by those distortions in perception: a great deal of the concrete deterioration of things has been accelerated by our unending perception of those things as deteriorating. This is true regardless of where you exist on the political spectrum, though the intensified divisions of that spectrum were themselves accelerated by how addictive and cancerous the modern Internet is.
This is not the only terrible thing going on in the world today, but it makes for one hell of a multiplier. I notice its effects particularly among my Gen Z friends, who have been connected to their phones since birth in a way that not even my younger-millennial cohort was, and who genuinely struggle with the idea that, in the middle of an anxiety attack, it is possible and even beneficial to put the phone down and touch some grass.
But I also grew up reading Bloom County, and strips like this feel like they could have been written yesterday. Is it really that society or human nature have changed? Or is it that we're programmed to think of the modern moment as exceptional, and to disregard the anxieties of a decade ago?
Corey Robin wrote a piece for Harper's in 2018 about the amnesiac nature of political climates. Among other things, he documents Philip Roth's talking about the 70s during the 70s, and then during the 80s, and again in 2017. In every decade, Roth is convinced that this is the decade where American ideals are collapsing, and that that was a decade that still felt recognizably American to him. When Roth wrote this:
The modern day sucks in unique ways, absolutely, and the future is uncertain and bleak. But the thing Bloom County said about TV in 1985 is even more true about social media today, and the point that Robin makes about Roth is true of us too. I've made it a point to try to keep this in mind as part of my ongoing attempts to live more mindfully—sorry, I hate that phrase too—and I've found that, though modern times don't seem any brighter for it, I freak out a lot less about the darkness. Which has been a net good, not only for my mental health but for my own ability and willingness to throw myself at political and social causes that I think may make a difference. Sometimes I even convince myself that they will lead to something good.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:48 AM on October 23, 2022 [32 favorites]
We talk about this constantly, because the modus operandi of social media is to talk constantly about all the things that we hate and fear that prove how right we are to be anxious and angry and desperate. Yet at the same time, there is a disconnect between talking ABOUT the impact that this has in the abstract, and NOTICING the concrete impact on ourselves. Which is to say: we talk constantly about how social media deteriorates our states of mind in general, while remaining convinced that our specific states of mind are purely rational and derived solely from the exact actual literal state of the world at all times.
Things are not great today, but our perception of how things are is even bleaker. Ironically, about three-fourths of the categories polled about here are influenced by those distortions in perception: a great deal of the concrete deterioration of things has been accelerated by our unending perception of those things as deteriorating. This is true regardless of where you exist on the political spectrum, though the intensified divisions of that spectrum were themselves accelerated by how addictive and cancerous the modern Internet is.
This is not the only terrible thing going on in the world today, but it makes for one hell of a multiplier. I notice its effects particularly among my Gen Z friends, who have been connected to their phones since birth in a way that not even my younger-millennial cohort was, and who genuinely struggle with the idea that, in the middle of an anxiety attack, it is possible and even beneficial to put the phone down and touch some grass.
But I also grew up reading Bloom County, and strips like this feel like they could have been written yesterday. Is it really that society or human nature have changed? Or is it that we're programmed to think of the modern moment as exceptional, and to disregard the anxieties of a decade ago?
Corey Robin wrote a piece for Harper's in 2018 about the amnesiac nature of political climates. Among other things, he documents Philip Roth's talking about the 70s during the 70s, and then during the 80s, and again in 2017. In every decade, Roth is convinced that this is the decade where American ideals are collapsing, and that that was a decade that still felt recognizably American to him. When Roth wrote this:
One even began to use the word “America” as though it was the name not of the place where one had been raised and to which one had a patriotic attachment, but of a foreign invader that had conquered the country and with whom one refused, to the best of one’s strength and ability, to collaborate. Suddenly America had turned into “them.”...was he referring to Nixon, or to Reagan, or to Trump? Similarly, when Bloom County illustrated people freaking out over prospects of war and violence and the country tearing itself apart, was it talking about some past moment in American life, or talking about its own moment, or talking about now?
The modern day sucks in unique ways, absolutely, and the future is uncertain and bleak. But the thing Bloom County said about TV in 1985 is even more true about social media today, and the point that Robin makes about Roth is true of us too. I've made it a point to try to keep this in mind as part of my ongoing attempts to live more mindfully—sorry, I hate that phrase too—and I've found that, though modern times don't seem any brighter for it, I freak out a lot less about the darkness. Which has been a net good, not only for my mental health but for my own ability and willingness to throw myself at political and social causes that I think may make a difference. Sometimes I even convince myself that they will lead to something good.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:48 AM on October 23, 2022 [32 favorites]
The one thing that restores some of my equanimity comes from reading Gary Gerstle's writing about political orders. His thesis is that we're living through the end of the Neoliberal Order (which supplanted the New Deal Order), and that means a great many things are up in the air in ways we may not really be able to imagine, even as I'm getting to a point in life where flexibility and equanimity are going to diminish.
I read Stephen Skowronek's The Politics Presidents Make as part of my post-Trump political literacy diet, and one of the points that Skowronek makes again and again is that, when political eras end—Gerstle's New Deal-to-Neoliberal ordering of eras was originally Skowronek's—people's faith in the political order collapses. That means that trust erodes, not only in the government's ability to represent the nation as a whole, but in the people's ability to unite under a singular idea of America.
One of his arguments is that we tend to see the cart as leading the horse. That is to say: we start to see the nation as increasingly polarized, and think that that's eroding democracy. Skowronek's point is that it works the other way around: institutional dysfunction creates a weakness at the core of American life, and that sudden void enables polarization. When a new structure snaps into place, the polarization lessens, because it has less space to fill.
Anyway, The Politics Presidents Make documents just how much of what we're experiencing now did happen in the late 70s, under Nixon and Ford but especially under Carter. Reagan's ascendancy stabilized America's political climate—which wasn't necessarily a good thing, given what Reagan birthed, but put an end not only to the dysfunction but to the memory of the dysfunction. Because the chief principle of living through an era like ours isn't just that the present is chaotic and awful, it's that we don't know whether it will change. The historic record of the bad times remains, but the fear for the future gives way to something new.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:55 AM on October 23, 2022 [10 favorites]
I read Stephen Skowronek's The Politics Presidents Make as part of my post-Trump political literacy diet, and one of the points that Skowronek makes again and again is that, when political eras end—Gerstle's New Deal-to-Neoliberal ordering of eras was originally Skowronek's—people's faith in the political order collapses. That means that trust erodes, not only in the government's ability to represent the nation as a whole, but in the people's ability to unite under a singular idea of America.
One of his arguments is that we tend to see the cart as leading the horse. That is to say: we start to see the nation as increasingly polarized, and think that that's eroding democracy. Skowronek's point is that it works the other way around: institutional dysfunction creates a weakness at the core of American life, and that sudden void enables polarization. When a new structure snaps into place, the polarization lessens, because it has less space to fill.
Anyway, The Politics Presidents Make documents just how much of what we're experiencing now did happen in the late 70s, under Nixon and Ford but especially under Carter. Reagan's ascendancy stabilized America's political climate—which wasn't necessarily a good thing, given what Reagan birthed, but put an end not only to the dysfunction but to the memory of the dysfunction. Because the chief principle of living through an era like ours isn't just that the present is chaotic and awful, it's that we don't know whether it will change. The historic record of the bad times remains, but the fear for the future gives way to something new.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:55 AM on October 23, 2022 [10 favorites]
What about during the early 1940s
Ok valid, but I just don't think the horrors of world war 2 are really much of a current stressor for most people today is the thing.
posted by phunniemee at 5:57 AM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ok valid, but I just don't think the horrors of world war 2 are really much of a current stressor for most people today is the thing.
posted by phunniemee at 5:57 AM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
The current political climate is the one thing that's different from previous stressful times. There are multiple possible bad outcomes possible that could develop from the current situation, ranging from corrupt authoritarianism to anarchy and collapse.
Climate change has always been there as a threat, if people were willing to look. Defined more broadly, "the environment" has been a concern for many, many decades, probably getting more attention in the late 60s/early 70s than afterwards (and with at least some successes in that era for people fighting for environmental issues).
Anything else has been worse in the past. 2008 was a worse economy than we have today.
In 1981, "inflation" however you define it was twice what it is today. Unemployment in the U.S. was over 8%. There was the real possibility that the U.S. could be the target of a massive nuclear attack, and there was a new president dumb and wacky enough to spark it.
And yet, in 1981, there were still enough people alive from 1931 and 1941 to put even the problems of that year in context.
And now that I'm a somewhat older person myself, I can testify that while there have always been evil and corrupt people somewhere near the seats and controls of power, the unacceptable behavior and outright crimes of the right-wing generally and Republicans specifically that are happening today would not have been tolerated in those previous decades. That has changed. It's a partial collapse of social norms, and nobody knows where the bottom end of that slide is. How much worse can it get?
posted by gimonca at 6:02 AM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
Climate change has always been there as a threat, if people were willing to look. Defined more broadly, "the environment" has been a concern for many, many decades, probably getting more attention in the late 60s/early 70s than afterwards (and with at least some successes in that era for people fighting for environmental issues).
Anything else has been worse in the past. 2008 was a worse economy than we have today.
In 1981, "inflation" however you define it was twice what it is today. Unemployment in the U.S. was over 8%. There was the real possibility that the U.S. could be the target of a massive nuclear attack, and there was a new president dumb and wacky enough to spark it.
And yet, in 1981, there were still enough people alive from 1931 and 1941 to put even the problems of that year in context.
And now that I'm a somewhat older person myself, I can testify that while there have always been evil and corrupt people somewhere near the seats and controls of power, the unacceptable behavior and outright crimes of the right-wing generally and Republicans specifically that are happening today would not have been tolerated in those previous decades. That has changed. It's a partial collapse of social norms, and nobody knows where the bottom end of that slide is. How much worse can it get?
posted by gimonca at 6:02 AM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
It's absolutely true you'll be happier if you change your media diet, Artifice_Eternity. I suppose mph covered the racial question completely, but yes crime fears come from the police propaganda machine, not reality. I think illusory fears mask the truth on inflation and politics though:
We've always had deep political divisions of course. Yet, we need far greater complexity to maintain our population, lifestyle, etc., which creates diverse political problems. At least some respondents would check "political divisions" when they really mean systemic problems, like complexity increasing while overall political and administrative competence stayed fixed. We also pushed political corruption into too closely resembling "rights" too.
We fought those world wars using oil energy which we could simply turn on, due to our economy not having yet grown enough to consume everything, with real economic growth peaking in like the 50s or something. We'll run out of oil & gas in 50 years, but much sooner in practice, and the slurping sound grows louder and louder.
We're headed for +3.2°C within 100 years, but really tipping point make this above +4°C, so absolutely no chance this planet still supports one billion humans by then. We'll hit other planetary boundaries before climate change really devastates us too.
All this manifests as economic reductions, which we only barely feel now but we'll only stop them from worsening with incredibly radical economic changes.
In brief, there are nobody credible sources who can give solace on climate, inflation, or politics because they're actually really deeply fucked up under the hood, so even if individuals fear the wrong details like inflation or divisions then their fears wind up confirmed.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:37 AM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
We've always had deep political divisions of course. Yet, we need far greater complexity to maintain our population, lifestyle, etc., which creates diverse political problems. At least some respondents would check "political divisions" when they really mean systemic problems, like complexity increasing while overall political and administrative competence stayed fixed. We also pushed political corruption into too closely resembling "rights" too.
We fought those world wars using oil energy which we could simply turn on, due to our economy not having yet grown enough to consume everything, with real economic growth peaking in like the 50s or something. We'll run out of oil & gas in 50 years, but much sooner in practice, and the slurping sound grows louder and louder.
We're headed for +3.2°C within 100 years, but really tipping point make this above +4°C, so absolutely no chance this planet still supports one billion humans by then. We'll hit other planetary boundaries before climate change really devastates us too.
All this manifests as economic reductions, which we only barely feel now but we'll only stop them from worsening with incredibly radical economic changes.
In brief, there are nobody credible sources who can give solace on climate, inflation, or politics because they're actually really deeply fucked up under the hood, so even if individuals fear the wrong details like inflation or divisions then their fears wind up confirmed.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:37 AM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's not a contest. It doesn't actually matter that, say, 1862 was probably a way worse time to be alive than right now, because we don't live in 1862. We live in 2022, and the problem is that we all thought 2016 was the worst year we had ever known, and we were right, and two thirds of us would cheerfully strangle a puppy if it meant we could return to 2016, an exponentially better year than 2022. Things are bad and getting worse. It's great that we aren't taking musketfire at the battle of Antietam, but that isn't the issue, I feel.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:55 AM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:55 AM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
The existential threat
that I always feel
Nothing’s happened yet today and yet I have to feel
Danger near,
danger here
Nowhere to escape to and nobody there to hear
As I now scream in fear,
scream in fear
The existential threat is drawing very, very near
And they all look away,
look away
Can’t they see the existential threat is on its way?
The existential threat
that I tend to feel
When I’m walking down the street or right behind the wheel
Turning left,
turning right
Trying to escape the cloud that’s close enough to feel
And you may laugh out loud,
laugh out loud
The existential threat is always hanging about
And you may say go 'way,
say go 'way
The existential threat is never going away
Doctor gave me these,
I said what are these?
He said that they’ll cure an existential type disease
Doubt they will,
doubt they will
But I’m keen to try whatever, gimme that pill
And he said here’s the bill,
here’s the bill
In the end they didn’t work, I paid the whole bill
Because insurance won’t,
they just won’t
Cover existential meds, I wish I had known
How should I react
under this attack?
Even when I’m standing up I feel I’m on my back
Quagmire here,
quagmire there
I cannot elucidate the danger that is always there
But it is looming large,
extra large
My semi-automatic weapon ready to discharge
But it’s a futile act,
better pack
The existential threat is bulletproof and looming large
Sartre and Camus
seemed to understand
Something close to what I’m feeling though they were in France
Deux Magots
they would go
Each comparing existential threats they came to blows
And then the crowds came near
just to cheer
For the greatest existential threatened philosophe
And it is comforting,
comforting
Then the comfort starts to very quickly fade away
Did I wake you up?
Sorry if I did
Guess I woke you up and also woke your little kid
Threat outside,
let me hide
Just until the danger passes, then I’ll go outside
And have to come again,
once again
The existential threat is at your patio door
And do not let it in,
let it in
When you fight the existential threat, you will not win
The existential threat
that I always feel
Lots of things have happened and I seek an even keel
Danger near,
danger far
Nowhere to escape to and I’m racing in my car
As I now scream in fear,
scream in fear
The existential threat is drawing very, very near
As I now drive away,
by the way
Can’t you see the existential threat is on its way?
Cyriak - The Existential Threat
posted by AlSweigart at 8:29 AM on October 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
that I always feel
Nothing’s happened yet today and yet I have to feel
Danger near,
danger here
Nowhere to escape to and nobody there to hear
As I now scream in fear,
scream in fear
The existential threat is drawing very, very near
And they all look away,
look away
Can’t they see the existential threat is on its way?
The existential threat
that I tend to feel
When I’m walking down the street or right behind the wheel
Turning left,
turning right
Trying to escape the cloud that’s close enough to feel
And you may laugh out loud,
laugh out loud
The existential threat is always hanging about
And you may say go 'way,
say go 'way
The existential threat is never going away
Doctor gave me these,
I said what are these?
He said that they’ll cure an existential type disease
Doubt they will,
doubt they will
But I’m keen to try whatever, gimme that pill
And he said here’s the bill,
here’s the bill
In the end they didn’t work, I paid the whole bill
Because insurance won’t,
they just won’t
Cover existential meds, I wish I had known
How should I react
under this attack?
Even when I’m standing up I feel I’m on my back
Quagmire here,
quagmire there
I cannot elucidate the danger that is always there
But it is looming large,
extra large
My semi-automatic weapon ready to discharge
But it’s a futile act,
better pack
The existential threat is bulletproof and looming large
Sartre and Camus
seemed to understand
Something close to what I’m feeling though they were in France
Deux Magots
they would go
Each comparing existential threats they came to blows
And then the crowds came near
just to cheer
For the greatest existential threatened philosophe
And it is comforting,
comforting
Then the comfort starts to very quickly fade away
Did I wake you up?
Sorry if I did
Guess I woke you up and also woke your little kid
Threat outside,
let me hide
Just until the danger passes, then I’ll go outside
And have to come again,
once again
The existential threat is at your patio door
And do not let it in,
let it in
When you fight the existential threat, you will not win
The existential threat
that I always feel
Lots of things have happened and I seek an even keel
Danger near,
danger far
Nowhere to escape to and I’m racing in my car
As I now scream in fear,
scream in fear
The existential threat is drawing very, very near
As I now drive away,
by the way
Can’t you see the existential threat is on its way?
Cyriak - The Existential Threat
posted by AlSweigart at 8:29 AM on October 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
What about the 1940s? What about the 1960s?
Speaking purely personally, my parents were born in 1966. You have to go back to my grandparents for any real memory of either of those times; I certainly don't have any personal memory of either.
It seems kind of silly to assume that Americans today would, en masse, meaningfully be able to compare the experiences of living fifty to seventy years ago with the experience of living today. I mean, the 1840s were also extremely bad! I am not sure I would be able to meaningfully comment on how much worse they were to live through than right now.
posted by sciatrix at 8:38 AM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
Speaking purely personally, my parents were born in 1966. You have to go back to my grandparents for any real memory of either of those times; I certainly don't have any personal memory of either.
It seems kind of silly to assume that Americans today would, en masse, meaningfully be able to compare the experiences of living fifty to seventy years ago with the experience of living today. I mean, the 1840s were also extremely bad! I am not sure I would be able to meaningfully comment on how much worse they were to live through than right now.
posted by sciatrix at 8:38 AM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
Reminder that “crime” often just means visible homelessness.
posted by Artw at 8:48 AM on October 23, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:48 AM on October 23, 2022 [28 favorites]
Short range, things are less bad, sure.
Long range (and why climate is our worry) is because it's not THAT long range that the effects are gonna be felt, so we see what's on the pipeline, we see what we have now in terms of leaders being adults in the room and not bloody toddler tyrants running an entire species....
Between that, the possibility of Trump or some other Know-Nothing Populist somehow winning. Or complete control by the far right...
I think the difference with Reagan, etc... And no doubt there was a lot more openness about religion or... maybe it felt that way, but I was ensconced as a child. As an adult I can turn my head.
Trump is but a continuation of that culture, only maybe more secularized and debowdlerized?
posted by symbioid at 8:52 AM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Long range (and why climate is our worry) is because it's not THAT long range that the effects are gonna be felt, so we see what's on the pipeline, we see what we have now in terms of leaders being adults in the room and not bloody toddler tyrants running an entire species....
Between that, the possibility of Trump or some other Know-Nothing Populist somehow winning. Or complete control by the far right...
I think the difference with Reagan, etc... And no doubt there was a lot more openness about religion or... maybe it felt that way, but I was ensconced as a child. As an adult I can turn my head.
Trump is but a continuation of that culture, only maybe more secularized and debowdlerized?
posted by symbioid at 8:52 AM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sorry my point being I think though it appears less Christo-fascist, that's more a reflection of the secularization of religio-government. The same goals are attained. The fact is Trump still has to appeal to the same bullshit far-right religious tendencies, even if society hasn't change.
Frankly that depresses me more, because it means we're less democratic while this power structure holds on.
OK - so count that in my worry column. kthxbye. also climate. So many of thsese are interwove in my mind, too.
posted by symbioid at 8:54 AM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Frankly that depresses me more, because it means we're less democratic while this power structure holds on.
OK - so count that in my worry column. kthxbye. also climate. So many of thsese are interwove in my mind, too.
posted by symbioid at 8:54 AM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Looking at the poll, some of these are very weird why were they included on the list: like 'immigration' - what does that mean as a 'stressor'? It's like they just took random headline hot-takes as the source for their 'stressors'. I'm doubting 'immigration' is a topic people are raising with their therapists unless they themselves are immigrants and are stressed about that process, the loss involved, etc. If this list of stressors was based on what people talked about in therapy wouldn't 'your husband' or 'your kids teacher' or 'your boss' or whatever be on the list? If we're going with topics that have a large impact across communities, or like, current events, why pick 'inflation' instead of 'salaries and benefits' or 'debt burden' or 'income inequality'? Why isn't 'workplace safety' on the list?
The only thing that could reduce the impact of the objective stressors they polled about (gun violence, climate change, 'change in abortion laws', the coronavirus pandemic, etc) is collective action. Their list of self-care tips at the end, while mostly sensible (if not scientifically supported), do nothing to change the conditions that cause the stress.
posted by latkes at 9:01 AM on October 23, 2022 [12 favorites]
The only thing that could reduce the impact of the objective stressors they polled about (gun violence, climate change, 'change in abortion laws', the coronavirus pandemic, etc) is collective action. Their list of self-care tips at the end, while mostly sensible (if not scientifically supported), do nothing to change the conditions that cause the stress.
posted by latkes at 9:01 AM on October 23, 2022 [12 favorites]
If this number is accurate, how does this manifest itself? What aren't roughly third of the adult population able to accomplish because of stress?
posted by Selena777 at 9:14 AM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 9:14 AM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
If this number is accurate, how does this manifest itself? What aren't roughly third of the adult population able to accomplish because of stress?
Most anything. At least when stacked up next to the potential. For two years, things have gotten done, but they have generally gotten done much worse -- most people seem to be grumpy shadows of their former selves at work.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:40 AM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
Most anything. At least when stacked up next to the potential. For two years, things have gotten done, but they have generally gotten done much worse -- most people seem to be grumpy shadows of their former selves at work.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:40 AM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
If this number is accurate, how does this manifest itself? What aren't roughly third of the adult population able to accomplish because of stress?
Speaking as from how I think this manifests in public sector workplaces, it means that a lot of shit is simply not getting done because so many people have resigned that the work is falling to an ever-decreasing number of individuals, but management is not throttling back work expectations. I don't think this is limited to the public sector, I see other workplaces where things just seem profoundly dysfunctional because staffing is so thin (like when I had to wait 30 minutes at the pharmacy for a vaccine when it usually takes 10 minutes). So things get triaged into infinity, and frankly those of us still sticking around are either planning our own exit strategy, accept that we are dropping balls, or engaging in some form of work to rule.
I'm doing all three, personally.
posted by mostly vowels at 9:55 AM on October 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
Speaking as from how I think this manifests in public sector workplaces, it means that a lot of shit is simply not getting done because so many people have resigned that the work is falling to an ever-decreasing number of individuals, but management is not throttling back work expectations. I don't think this is limited to the public sector, I see other workplaces where things just seem profoundly dysfunctional because staffing is so thin (like when I had to wait 30 minutes at the pharmacy for a vaccine when it usually takes 10 minutes). So things get triaged into infinity, and frankly those of us still sticking around are either planning our own exit strategy, accept that we are dropping balls, or engaging in some form of work to rule.
I'm doing all three, personally.
posted by mostly vowels at 9:55 AM on October 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
I was immediately skeptical of the category "violence and crime," given media coverage of crime (especially local tv news) as well as NextDoor / Ring doorbell / neighborhood watch vigilantism. I'm in the middle of reading Dying of Whiteness and people's perceptions of crime and risk are so skewed.
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:58 AM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:58 AM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
If I fall down the stairs and break my leg, I’m fucking upset! I’m not okay with it because I was shot in the head 40 years ago.
You're missing the point. You're not actually falling down the stairs, but for a substantial portion of people in the US, the steady diet of Fox News etc. has convinced you that you're in imminent danger of doing so (and to be blunt, they've insinuated black people are going to push you down those stairs).
The US was a more fascist-like/christo-nationalist state in the late 1980s, early 1990s, than today, thanks to two terms of Reagan and a cap of H.W. Bush.
No, it wasn't. The Republican party wasn't overtly working to suppress voting at the current level and worked in a relatively bipartisan way on bills that helped the country. Casey in 1992 upheld Roe despite the fact that the three judges who crafted the plurality were Republican appointees (two appointed by Reagan and one appointed by Bush).
The court system and especially the Supreme Court is deeply tainted with Republican partisans and after the literal sacking of Congress and 20%+ of people deeply believing a stupid lie that the election was stolen you want to tell me that things were worse in 1988, you are at best naïve. Regan, as much as I detest him, won the popular vote twice. Trump did not, but appointed 1/3 of the Supreme Court, and put at least two deeply unqualified people in unaccountable positions over the US for life. I may not agree with O'Connor but she did the work to earn the job. Barrett laughably did not.
Things were bad during the Reagan years but we were never staring down the literal end of democracy the way we are now.
posted by Candleman at 10:05 AM on October 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
You're missing the point. You're not actually falling down the stairs, but for a substantial portion of people in the US, the steady diet of Fox News etc. has convinced you that you're in imminent danger of doing so (and to be blunt, they've insinuated black people are going to push you down those stairs).
The US was a more fascist-like/christo-nationalist state in the late 1980s, early 1990s, than today, thanks to two terms of Reagan and a cap of H.W. Bush.
No, it wasn't. The Republican party wasn't overtly working to suppress voting at the current level and worked in a relatively bipartisan way on bills that helped the country. Casey in 1992 upheld Roe despite the fact that the three judges who crafted the plurality were Republican appointees (two appointed by Reagan and one appointed by Bush).
The court system and especially the Supreme Court is deeply tainted with Republican partisans and after the literal sacking of Congress and 20%+ of people deeply believing a stupid lie that the election was stolen you want to tell me that things were worse in 1988, you are at best naïve. Regan, as much as I detest him, won the popular vote twice. Trump did not, but appointed 1/3 of the Supreme Court, and put at least two deeply unqualified people in unaccountable positions over the US for life. I may not agree with O'Connor but she did the work to earn the job. Barrett laughably did not.
Things were bad during the Reagan years but we were never staring down the literal end of democracy the way we are now.
posted by Candleman at 10:05 AM on October 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
Yeah, spamandkimchi - there's no reason I should be hearing about auto break-ins on the other side of the country but the Internet brings it to me like it's legitimate national news.
posted by Selena777 at 10:05 AM on October 23, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 10:05 AM on October 23, 2022 [12 favorites]
"A traumatic experience + being gaslit about whether it happened and was actually bad" is much more likely to cause PTSD than "a traumatic experience + having supportive people rally around to protect you afterwards".
The fact that no-one with the power to fix a thing seems to actually be doing anything to help, and that stressed people are increasingly being held responsible for their own suffering, can't be helping. See also the section titled "how to take action during times of uncertainty" at the bottom of TFA, which seems to me to actively make the situation worse. Uncertainty is not the problem here.
posted by heatherlogan at 10:17 AM on October 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
The fact that no-one with the power to fix a thing seems to actually be doing anything to help, and that stressed people are increasingly being held responsible for their own suffering, can't be helping. See also the section titled "how to take action during times of uncertainty" at the bottom of TFA, which seems to me to actively make the situation worse. Uncertainty is not the problem here.
posted by heatherlogan at 10:17 AM on October 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
Yeah, spamandkimchi - there's no reason I should be hearing about auto break-ins on the other side of the country but
I'll raise you one and say this should apply to pretty much all so-called breaking news that isn't local, that doesn't actually affect one's day to day actions and concerns. Or put it this way -- why the fuck do I need to immediately know about the latest atrocity in Ukraine (or perhaps Alabama) when there's nothing I can fucking do about it, except pitch into despair?
My only New Years Resolution this year was to deal with my "addiction" to breaking news. And I gotta say, it's worked out better than I would've hoped. This doesn't mean I've opted for ignorance about what's going on in the world, but rather taken a big step back from engaging with the immediacy of much of it -- in particular, the horrific stuff I can do nothing about.
One thing that's really helped in this regard is getting a subscription (not cheap) to the Guardian Weekly. Roughly a week or ten days* after the latest horrific Holy-Shit-We're-All-Gonna-Die event, I get to read about it (sometimes in gory detail) from the perspective of Well-I-Guess-We-Didn't-All-Die-After-All. It's still horrific, of course, but welcome to life on earth. There Is Always Something Horrific Happening To Somebody Somewhere. The trick is not to dwell on the stuff you can do nothing about but rather save your energy for the stuff you can affect, which is usually local, usually concerns people you know and love ...
posted by philip-random at 10:29 AM on October 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
I'll raise you one and say this should apply to pretty much all so-called breaking news that isn't local, that doesn't actually affect one's day to day actions and concerns. Or put it this way -- why the fuck do I need to immediately know about the latest atrocity in Ukraine (or perhaps Alabama) when there's nothing I can fucking do about it, except pitch into despair?
My only New Years Resolution this year was to deal with my "addiction" to breaking news. And I gotta say, it's worked out better than I would've hoped. This doesn't mean I've opted for ignorance about what's going on in the world, but rather taken a big step back from engaging with the immediacy of much of it -- in particular, the horrific stuff I can do nothing about.
One thing that's really helped in this regard is getting a subscription (not cheap) to the Guardian Weekly. Roughly a week or ten days* after the latest horrific Holy-Shit-We're-All-Gonna-Die event, I get to read about it (sometimes in gory detail) from the perspective of Well-I-Guess-We-Didn't-All-Die-After-All. It's still horrific, of course, but welcome to life on earth. There Is Always Something Horrific Happening To Somebody Somewhere. The trick is not to dwell on the stuff you can do nothing about but rather save your energy for the stuff you can affect, which is usually local, usually concerns people you know and love ...
posted by philip-random at 10:29 AM on October 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
Yes x 1000 on the auto break-ins on the other side of the country.
The same thing goes for local politics. Some enterprising local pol was ALWAYS running some dumbshit idea up the flagpole back in the day, and it might show up in the "news of the weird" section on the 17th page of the newspaper. Now the same goober is shoved into my face in a dozen funding request emails and 100s of tweets, web ads, or whatever.
posted by cupcakeninja at 10:46 AM on October 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
The same thing goes for local politics. Some enterprising local pol was ALWAYS running some dumbshit idea up the flagpole back in the day, and it might show up in the "news of the weird" section on the 17th page of the newspaper. Now the same goober is shoved into my face in a dozen funding request emails and 100s of tweets, web ads, or whatever.
posted by cupcakeninja at 10:46 AM on October 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
I feel disappointed in the direction this discussion went, with people comparing the current world to history and repeatedly pointing out that today is not "worse" than previous historical times, so I'm just going to write my two cents.
I live in today, not the 1800s or World War Two or whatever other hard times the world has experienced. It doesn't feel particularly helpful OR comforting to hear there have been hard times before. For one, I think it also would've sucked and been hard to be living through any of those previous hard times, and that would've been valid to vent about and unhelpful to hear people retort "it's always been bad" with the implication that I shouldn't be struggling, I guess? For two, having not lived the entirety of human history, the bad that I'm seeing today sure feels different (one might even say, UNPRECEDENTED). With the benefit of hindsight, it has seemed like even through hard times, the world has always been overall trying to trend towards better for humanity in the long run, and with optimism for the unknown and distant future. It doesn't feel like that today. It honestly feels like the world is staring down the deadline of climate change and that a better future is not necessarily inevitable. Also, the social contracts people upheld in historical hard times are breaking down today: on a macro scale, with fundamental democratic practices being actively chipped away and undermined, and on a micro scale, with people being less amicable and kind towards each other, and more road-ragey and rude and hateful towards each other. (I say this not based on what I see/read on social media, but what I experience while driving down the street or walking around town. For example, five years ago, everyone said hello to each other on the running/biking trails, now? Maybe 1 out of 5 will return my greeting - a mild example.) So yea, this feels different.
I also think things are hard in a way that affects my day to day routine more, in tiny subtle ways, that make everything way more stressful and exhausting than it used to be. Yes, there have always been concerns about global issues like climate change, but now, I literally can't count on certain foods to be available at the grocery store. So I have to not only meal plan, but plan alternative meals as well and figure out how to pivot while shopping because the store is out of broccoli because the drought ruined the crop this season (true story, happened this spring). I have to reroute my evening commute every day one week because different roads kept closing due to flooding and land slides (true story, happened last fall). My weekend hiking trip needs two different itineraries planned because of wildfire/smoke activity (true story, happened last week). I suddenly can't afford the once a week takeout I used to treat myself to (despite having a college degree and "middle class" career, hello broken social contract), so the small pleasures in life get cut out. I can't afford to fly home for the holidays, so the big pleasures in life get cut out. I'm working extra hours most weekdays to be able to afford life, so the laundry gets pushed until 10pm, and then I get less sleep. I can't afford to buy pre-made foods, so I have to take time out of my weekend to prep snacks for the week, which takes up MORE of my time and energy. So what am I too stressed to do? Literally anything but week to week functioning. Plan a vacation? Wayyy too much effort/work/money/time. Go volunteer somewhere? I don't have enough available hours for the local non-profits who want a steady commitment. Break out the art supplies and create something? Ugh, I'm too exhausted and want to just spend this one hour I have between work and bedtime staring at the wall.
Oh, and then, instead of just being allowed to be exhausted and stressed, I get to hear people say "life has always been hard."
For the people blaming social media, I do completely agree that SM is horrible for this and is harming humanity in lots of ways. But I'm also writing as someone who's not really on SM much (metafilter, mostly, and funny memes on IG, that's about it), so that's not the only factor here. I think it's also important to acknowledge that it's extremely difficult (if not impossible) to live an analog life like we used to have, or to even mostly unplug. This stuff is not only designed to be addictive, it's also the only thing many people have time/energy for these days, and it's a major part of our world - wanna see that local cafe's daily soups? Well, it's only available on their instagram. Wanna meet some fellow hobbyists in your town? Sorry, they only have a facebook group. SM is where I find the highest quality local weather information, town events, etc. So yes, social media is DEFINITELY a huge part of the problem, but it's not the only part, and it's not always as simple as "just don't go on social media."
I don't know what the answer is. But I got excited when I saw the OP headline, thinking, "at least it's not just me struggling." And I already knew that, this is what dominates 70% of conversations among me and my friends. But the responses here were frustrating enough that I took significant time out of my ONE day off this week to write my two cents. Which I really can't afford. ;)
posted by carlypennylane at 10:57 AM on October 23, 2022 [46 favorites]
I live in today, not the 1800s or World War Two or whatever other hard times the world has experienced. It doesn't feel particularly helpful OR comforting to hear there have been hard times before. For one, I think it also would've sucked and been hard to be living through any of those previous hard times, and that would've been valid to vent about and unhelpful to hear people retort "it's always been bad" with the implication that I shouldn't be struggling, I guess? For two, having not lived the entirety of human history, the bad that I'm seeing today sure feels different (one might even say, UNPRECEDENTED). With the benefit of hindsight, it has seemed like even through hard times, the world has always been overall trying to trend towards better for humanity in the long run, and with optimism for the unknown and distant future. It doesn't feel like that today. It honestly feels like the world is staring down the deadline of climate change and that a better future is not necessarily inevitable. Also, the social contracts people upheld in historical hard times are breaking down today: on a macro scale, with fundamental democratic practices being actively chipped away and undermined, and on a micro scale, with people being less amicable and kind towards each other, and more road-ragey and rude and hateful towards each other. (I say this not based on what I see/read on social media, but what I experience while driving down the street or walking around town. For example, five years ago, everyone said hello to each other on the running/biking trails, now? Maybe 1 out of 5 will return my greeting - a mild example.) So yea, this feels different.
I also think things are hard in a way that affects my day to day routine more, in tiny subtle ways, that make everything way more stressful and exhausting than it used to be. Yes, there have always been concerns about global issues like climate change, but now, I literally can't count on certain foods to be available at the grocery store. So I have to not only meal plan, but plan alternative meals as well and figure out how to pivot while shopping because the store is out of broccoli because the drought ruined the crop this season (true story, happened this spring). I have to reroute my evening commute every day one week because different roads kept closing due to flooding and land slides (true story, happened last fall). My weekend hiking trip needs two different itineraries planned because of wildfire/smoke activity (true story, happened last week). I suddenly can't afford the once a week takeout I used to treat myself to (despite having a college degree and "middle class" career, hello broken social contract), so the small pleasures in life get cut out. I can't afford to fly home for the holidays, so the big pleasures in life get cut out. I'm working extra hours most weekdays to be able to afford life, so the laundry gets pushed until 10pm, and then I get less sleep. I can't afford to buy pre-made foods, so I have to take time out of my weekend to prep snacks for the week, which takes up MORE of my time and energy. So what am I too stressed to do? Literally anything but week to week functioning. Plan a vacation? Wayyy too much effort/work/money/time. Go volunteer somewhere? I don't have enough available hours for the local non-profits who want a steady commitment. Break out the art supplies and create something? Ugh, I'm too exhausted and want to just spend this one hour I have between work and bedtime staring at the wall.
Oh, and then, instead of just being allowed to be exhausted and stressed, I get to hear people say "life has always been hard."
For the people blaming social media, I do completely agree that SM is horrible for this and is harming humanity in lots of ways. But I'm also writing as someone who's not really on SM much (metafilter, mostly, and funny memes on IG, that's about it), so that's not the only factor here. I think it's also important to acknowledge that it's extremely difficult (if not impossible) to live an analog life like we used to have, or to even mostly unplug. This stuff is not only designed to be addictive, it's also the only thing many people have time/energy for these days, and it's a major part of our world - wanna see that local cafe's daily soups? Well, it's only available on their instagram. Wanna meet some fellow hobbyists in your town? Sorry, they only have a facebook group. SM is where I find the highest quality local weather information, town events, etc. So yes, social media is DEFINITELY a huge part of the problem, but it's not the only part, and it's not always as simple as "just don't go on social media."
I don't know what the answer is. But I got excited when I saw the OP headline, thinking, "at least it's not just me struggling." And I already knew that, this is what dominates 70% of conversations among me and my friends. But the responses here were frustrating enough that I took significant time out of my ONE day off this week to write my two cents. Which I really can't afford. ;)
posted by carlypennylane at 10:57 AM on October 23, 2022 [46 favorites]
I think people here are reacting to the framing of the article and also the survey, and that is fair enough. But the stress and anxiety can be real and the reasons can be real, even though the stories people tell themselves are wrong.
I remember thinking when Trump said parts of the US are like a third world country that he wasn't entirely wrong. It's not the observation that is wrong, it's the explanation. Trump sees the holes in the road, the worn-down housing, the most expensive health-care system with the worst outcome, and he says it is because of "others". And that seems to be a better explanation than the actual truth to millions of people. Because accepting the truth is also accepting culpability, which seems absurd when you see yourself as a victim.
In the sixties we were all much less affluent than today, and more segregated, but there was hope. And even though we had less ressources, our ressources brought us more value. College and healthcare wouldn't bankrupt people. A working class salary could pay a mortgage and anyway rentals were fairly priced. Most importantly, the distance between the poorest and the richest was a lot shorter. Unions had real power. Democracy was not sold out entirely yet.
posted by mumimor at 11:36 AM on October 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
I remember thinking when Trump said parts of the US are like a third world country that he wasn't entirely wrong. It's not the observation that is wrong, it's the explanation. Trump sees the holes in the road, the worn-down housing, the most expensive health-care system with the worst outcome, and he says it is because of "others". And that seems to be a better explanation than the actual truth to millions of people. Because accepting the truth is also accepting culpability, which seems absurd when you see yourself as a victim.
In the sixties we were all much less affluent than today, and more segregated, but there was hope. And even though we had less ressources, our ressources brought us more value. College and healthcare wouldn't bankrupt people. A working class salary could pay a mortgage and anyway rentals were fairly priced. Most importantly, the distance between the poorest and the richest was a lot shorter. Unions had real power. Democracy was not sold out entirely yet.
posted by mumimor at 11:36 AM on October 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
I also think things are hard in a way that affects my day to day routine more, in tiny subtle ways, that make everything way more stressful and exhausting than it used to be. Yes, there have always been concerns about global issues like climate change, but now, I literally can't count on certain foods to be available at the grocery store. So I have to not only meal plan, but plan alternative meals as well and figure out how to pivot while shopping because the store is out of broccoli because the drought ruined the crop this season (true story, happened this spring). I have to reroute my evening commute every day one week because different roads kept closing due to flooding and land slides (true story, happened last fall). My weekend hiking trip needs two different itineraries planned because of wildfire/smoke activity (true story, happened last week). I suddenly can't afford the once a week takeout I used to treat myself to (despite having a college degree and "middle class" career, hello broken social contract), so the small pleasures in life get cut out. I can't afford to fly home for the holidays, so the big pleasures in life get cut out. I'm working extra hours most weekdays to be able to afford life, so the laundry gets pushed until 10pm, and then I get less sleep. I can't afford to buy pre-made foods, so I have to take time out of my weekend to prep snacks for the week, which takes up MORE of my time and energy. So what am I too stressed to do? Literally anything but week to week functioning.
I think this is really important. I'm also experiencing this. I am not being squeezed anything like as hard as most since we have four employed adults in our household and no children (although both of those things were choices I made in part because of *gestures broadly* all this shit) and I'm still feeling as though I'm working just all the time and don't have the bandwidth for any of the planning-around-changes that needs to happen and you're right, these disruptions are happening more often.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:42 AM on October 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
I think this is really important. I'm also experiencing this. I am not being squeezed anything like as hard as most since we have four employed adults in our household and no children (although both of those things were choices I made in part because of *gestures broadly* all this shit) and I'm still feeling as though I'm working just all the time and don't have the bandwidth for any of the planning-around-changes that needs to happen and you're right, these disruptions are happening more often.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:42 AM on October 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
Because accepting the truth is also accepting culpability, which seems absurd when you see yourself as a victim.
A.R.Moxon's continuing series on sabotage is essential reading on this topic.
posted by Jeanne at 11:44 AM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
A.R.Moxon's continuing series on sabotage is essential reading on this topic.
posted by Jeanne at 11:44 AM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
We’re looking at the possible extinction of the human race within 50 years
No we're not. We're looking at a deeply unpleasant future but there is nothing plausible that would cause extinction. Even a full fledged nuclear war and ensuing fallout (literally) would not be sufficient to reduce the population levels to the point that humanity wouldn't go on. It only takes pockets of a few hundred people to remain genetically viable.
What we are facing is millions or billions of people dying from largely artificial lack of food or water and general destruction from global warming. Focus on what we can do about that rather than implausible extinction events.
posted by Candleman at 12:25 PM on October 23, 2022 [20 favorites]
No we're not. We're looking at a deeply unpleasant future but there is nothing plausible that would cause extinction. Even a full fledged nuclear war and ensuing fallout (literally) would not be sufficient to reduce the population levels to the point that humanity wouldn't go on. It only takes pockets of a few hundred people to remain genetically viable.
What we are facing is millions or billions of people dying from largely artificial lack of food or water and general destruction from global warming. Focus on what we can do about that rather than implausible extinction events.
posted by Candleman at 12:25 PM on October 23, 2022 [20 favorites]
"at least it's not just me struggling."
I think we are all having different reactions to the general results of the survey, conditioned by our own responses to The Way Things Are Bad Right Now, Even If That Bad Is Not Like 1943. I am less likely these days to take great solace in knowing that other people are struggling. The majority of people I know have struggled in the last 3-6 years. I have chosen, at least as far as I can, to try to stop focusing on every bit of bad news--whether that's nuclear saber-rattling or things unexpectedly missing at my grocery store (peanut butter; ketchup; whatever) that disrupt my plans. Perhaps I should not have read this article, but the post is titled with an attention-grabbing excerpt that did what it was designed to do. It snuck past my defenses, and it messed with my strategy for dealing with The Way Things Are Bad Right Now.
The framing of this article is infuriating to me, as are aspects of the survey. I found a lot of it really interesting! Particularly the demographic breakdowns of who's experiencing what stress, even if I wasn't super-surprised. But the idea that a quarter of the country cannot function most days is ludicrous. It's part of the Trumpian escalation that's crept into everything, and I think that catastrophizing clickbait bullshit (especially coming from a body like the fucking APA!) should every once in a while be called out for what it is.
For me personally, it really is helpful to think about the overall run of history. Oncoming climate change is, and nuclear war would be, planet-altering in truly unpleasant ways. Such very big bads aside, which I see no point in dwelling on, yes, things have been hard in the past. It is immensely comforting to me to think that people have gotten through those hard times.
posted by cupcakeninja at 12:35 PM on October 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think we are all having different reactions to the general results of the survey, conditioned by our own responses to The Way Things Are Bad Right Now, Even If That Bad Is Not Like 1943. I am less likely these days to take great solace in knowing that other people are struggling. The majority of people I know have struggled in the last 3-6 years. I have chosen, at least as far as I can, to try to stop focusing on every bit of bad news--whether that's nuclear saber-rattling or things unexpectedly missing at my grocery store (peanut butter; ketchup; whatever) that disrupt my plans. Perhaps I should not have read this article, but the post is titled with an attention-grabbing excerpt that did what it was designed to do. It snuck past my defenses, and it messed with my strategy for dealing with The Way Things Are Bad Right Now.
The framing of this article is infuriating to me, as are aspects of the survey. I found a lot of it really interesting! Particularly the demographic breakdowns of who's experiencing what stress, even if I wasn't super-surprised. But the idea that a quarter of the country cannot function most days is ludicrous. It's part of the Trumpian escalation that's crept into everything, and I think that catastrophizing clickbait bullshit (especially coming from a body like the fucking APA!) should every once in a while be called out for what it is.
For me personally, it really is helpful to think about the overall run of history. Oncoming climate change is, and nuclear war would be, planet-altering in truly unpleasant ways. Such very big bads aside, which I see no point in dwelling on, yes, things have been hard in the past. It is immensely comforting to me to think that people have gotten through those hard times.
posted by cupcakeninja at 12:35 PM on October 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
A full-fledged nuclear conflict is not something humanity will survive in any meaningful way. Perhaps in a thousand years, a new society will rise from the ashes of the old, and Thundarr the Barbarian -- with his companions, Princess Ariel, and Ookla the Mok -- will roam across a savage land of dark science and super sorcery, but more immediately any benighted survivors would be cancer-riddled and probably rendered sterile, and anyway the living would envy the dead. But there isn't a lot of point to worrying about a nuclear apocalypse for that very reason. It's basically the absolute collapse of the human race's immune system. A bad day for sure, but nothing we can correct once it gets here. It's the big game over.
Maybe we can correct climate change, or at least slow it down, and so I agree that's a more worthy endeavor than worrying about the bomb. But even more immediately than that, we need to worry about literal starvation, debt, and lack of resources. No one needs to worry about the climate killing us in a decade if we can't pay rent or eat this week.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:42 PM on October 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
Maybe we can correct climate change, or at least slow it down, and so I agree that's a more worthy endeavor than worrying about the bomb. But even more immediately than that, we need to worry about literal starvation, debt, and lack of resources. No one needs to worry about the climate killing us in a decade if we can't pay rent or eat this week.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:42 PM on October 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
No, no, no. You only get Moks when something goes wrong with the moon. Well documented.
posted by mph at 12:53 PM on October 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by mph at 12:53 PM on October 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
A full-fledged nuclear conflict is not something humanity will survive in any meaningful way.
Not to derail too much, but of course we would. There's thousands (if not more) of significant pockets of humans nowhere near where the blast zones would be. It would be very bad to have a massive nuclear war (and I would be one of the people who'd be dead in the initial exchange) but it wouldn't mean the end of humanity. We are the apex predator of apex predators and there's a lot of us spread throughout the world.
posted by Candleman at 1:04 PM on October 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
Not to derail too much, but of course we would. There's thousands (if not more) of significant pockets of humans nowhere near where the blast zones would be. It would be very bad to have a massive nuclear war (and I would be one of the people who'd be dead in the initial exchange) but it wouldn't mean the end of humanity. We are the apex predator of apex predators and there's a lot of us spread throughout the world.
posted by Candleman at 1:04 PM on October 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
Well, I suppose we can compare notes afterward.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:07 PM on October 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:07 PM on October 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
But the idea that a quarter of the country cannot function most days is ludicrous.
Well, I know the MetaFilter crowd is not representative, but a lot of people here can't cook a meal. I can't see my friends and family. Others can't go for a walk. "Functioning" doesn't necessarily mean you can't handle a job, it may well be you are cutting out other parts of your life in order to be able to do that one thing that pays your bills.
posted by mumimor at 1:43 PM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
Well, I know the MetaFilter crowd is not representative, but a lot of people here can't cook a meal. I can't see my friends and family. Others can't go for a walk. "Functioning" doesn't necessarily mean you can't handle a job, it may well be you are cutting out other parts of your life in order to be able to do that one thing that pays your bills.
posted by mumimor at 1:43 PM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
Things were bad during the Reagan years but we were never staring down the literal end of democracy the way we are now.
to say that we had an actual democracy in this country before the 60s is pretty dubious - the christofascists had control of many parts of the country and a share of the mainstream back then
what's happening is their hold on things was shaken loose and now they're fighting back for the control they used to have - control that they will have to wield publicly and ruthlessly instead of quietly among themselves at the rotarian club meetings and the junior chamber of commerce or whatever
well, yes, there was more bipartisan agreement back then, but where were the minorities? was anything radical actually being proposed there? weren't the people bankrolling both parties more into corporate success (and local network strength and stability) than actual change?
no, what we have here is 1) a group of people who are desperately trying to turn the clocks back to 1950 or so 2) a group of white suburban leftists who are starting to recognize the oppression that many other people have been dealing with for the whole last century and more
i do think that things took a bad turn with the storming of the capitol - but we've yet to see the kind of violence we saw in the 60s, although it's not out of the question we will
posted by pyramid termite at 2:02 PM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
to say that we had an actual democracy in this country before the 60s is pretty dubious - the christofascists had control of many parts of the country and a share of the mainstream back then
what's happening is their hold on things was shaken loose and now they're fighting back for the control they used to have - control that they will have to wield publicly and ruthlessly instead of quietly among themselves at the rotarian club meetings and the junior chamber of commerce or whatever
well, yes, there was more bipartisan agreement back then, but where were the minorities? was anything radical actually being proposed there? weren't the people bankrolling both parties more into corporate success (and local network strength and stability) than actual change?
no, what we have here is 1) a group of people who are desperately trying to turn the clocks back to 1950 or so 2) a group of white suburban leftists who are starting to recognize the oppression that many other people have been dealing with for the whole last century and more
i do think that things took a bad turn with the storming of the capitol - but we've yet to see the kind of violence we saw in the 60s, although it's not out of the question we will
posted by pyramid termite at 2:02 PM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
to say that we had an actual democracy in this country before the 60s is pretty dubious - the christofascists had control of many parts of the country and a share of the mainstream back then
Also there was a good deal of voter suppression. It's difficult for me to refrain from examining "How well are you doing?" from a historical perspective because of how much interactions with society/institutions have changed for people of my race and gender.
posted by Selena777 at 2:22 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also there was a good deal of voter suppression. It's difficult for me to refrain from examining "How well are you doing?" from a historical perspective because of how much interactions with society/institutions have changed for people of my race and gender.
posted by Selena777 at 2:22 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
But the idea that a quarter of the country cannot function most days is ludicrous.
This is quite a bold statement to assert without evidence, particularly in the face of this survey in which a quarter of respondents reported exactly that. Can you explain why you think that?
I think a lot of people here are fundamentally misunderstanding the purpose and nature of this type of study. This is a study of people's self-reported levels of stress and their subjective experience of it, their perceptions of its causes, and its effects on their lives as they understand it. Describing this as "catastrophizing clickbait bullshit" is very weird to me. For one thing, as far as I know the APA isn't making any money from people clicking on their press releases, so I don't understand how this could be considered clickbait. For another, while it may well be that individual respondents to the survey are experiencing stress due to catastrophizing (meaning, predicting a level or probability of negative outcomes disproportionate to what a rational assessment of the evidence would produce), this is simply part of the story of understanding the demographics of stress in America. This survey does not seem to be designed to assess catastrophizing, but that is a different research aim from simply understanding what levels of stress people are experiencing, where they think it's coming from, and what its effects on their lives are.
posted by biogeo at 2:28 PM on October 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
"is there any social cohesion left to address this?"
This is probably the largest overarching source of my barely tenable anxiety. There’s the regular, every day stuff, like how long can I conceivably push my body before it just says, no, no more of this, and I find myself unable to do even the things I can still do now, which is itself much less than even a year or two ago (medical anxiety), or which asshole not wearing a mask is going to get me sick (pandemic anxiety, along with a general loss of faith in humanity and our willingness to care for each other), or how I’m going to manage to pay this months bills, even though I’m technically working three jobs, and my main job was, not five years ago, a pretty great job with good pay (economic/inflation anxiety), and there’s the general backdrop of how badly we’ve treated the planet, and how ugly the bill that’s coming due is, that, when I fail to keep it suppressed, usually manages to depress the fuck out of me because I’m terrified for what’s ahead for the junior high kids I teach, and, more recently, a terror that the shit seems to be hitting the fan faster than even I, a noted pessimist had thought (climate anxiety).
What really, really scares the shit out of me is that there no longer seems to be any sort of sense of responsibility at the helm, that there doesn’t seem to be any interest, let alone capability, of the people who are supposed to be keeping things running. Instead, we have tech billionaires holding private meetings to plan for the future (ie protecting their wealth) where projections of deaths are in the billions, and their goal is minimizing the risk to their portfolios.
The real anxiety, the real fear is that there’s no one coming to save us, even though I know that in itself is just the most childish, naive thing I find myself still wanting to cling to. It’s hard, to borrow Mr. Rodgers for a second, to find the helpers, when the helpers themselves are so overwhelmed by everything they’ve curled into a fetal ball and are sobbing, or, at best, are shuffling through their day, trying to figure out what necessity they can forgo, or how little sleep they actually need, and are grabbing the third or fourth take out of the week because cooking and doing dishes are just too much time and effort anymore.
And, as an addendum, that’s what “unable to function” means to me: yes, you have a mass of people who are able to meet their work obligations, to get to work roughly on time, to do a decent enough job to keep from getting fired, keeping their heads down, trying to avoid getting a “talk” from their boss. But past that, they’re failing to meet their own needs, they come home too late, they let social needs slip, texts from friends go unanswered, social connections wither. Laundry becomes insurmountable. Obligations to others (gotta pay the bills) take priority over taking care of ourselves. That’s the function that’s being lost, and the longer this all goes on, the more that loss of function becomes workers finally being unable to get out of bed, to meet even the barest level of faking presence.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:47 PM on October 23, 2022 [27 favorites]
This is probably the largest overarching source of my barely tenable anxiety. There’s the regular, every day stuff, like how long can I conceivably push my body before it just says, no, no more of this, and I find myself unable to do even the things I can still do now, which is itself much less than even a year or two ago (medical anxiety), or which asshole not wearing a mask is going to get me sick (pandemic anxiety, along with a general loss of faith in humanity and our willingness to care for each other), or how I’m going to manage to pay this months bills, even though I’m technically working three jobs, and my main job was, not five years ago, a pretty great job with good pay (economic/inflation anxiety), and there’s the general backdrop of how badly we’ve treated the planet, and how ugly the bill that’s coming due is, that, when I fail to keep it suppressed, usually manages to depress the fuck out of me because I’m terrified for what’s ahead for the junior high kids I teach, and, more recently, a terror that the shit seems to be hitting the fan faster than even I, a noted pessimist had thought (climate anxiety).
What really, really scares the shit out of me is that there no longer seems to be any sort of sense of responsibility at the helm, that there doesn’t seem to be any interest, let alone capability, of the people who are supposed to be keeping things running. Instead, we have tech billionaires holding private meetings to plan for the future (ie protecting their wealth) where projections of deaths are in the billions, and their goal is minimizing the risk to their portfolios.
The real anxiety, the real fear is that there’s no one coming to save us, even though I know that in itself is just the most childish, naive thing I find myself still wanting to cling to. It’s hard, to borrow Mr. Rodgers for a second, to find the helpers, when the helpers themselves are so overwhelmed by everything they’ve curled into a fetal ball and are sobbing, or, at best, are shuffling through their day, trying to figure out what necessity they can forgo, or how little sleep they actually need, and are grabbing the third or fourth take out of the week because cooking and doing dishes are just too much time and effort anymore.
And, as an addendum, that’s what “unable to function” means to me: yes, you have a mass of people who are able to meet their work obligations, to get to work roughly on time, to do a decent enough job to keep from getting fired, keeping their heads down, trying to avoid getting a “talk” from their boss. But past that, they’re failing to meet their own needs, they come home too late, they let social needs slip, texts from friends go unanswered, social connections wither. Laundry becomes insurmountable. Obligations to others (gotta pay the bills) take priority over taking care of ourselves. That’s the function that’s being lost, and the longer this all goes on, the more that loss of function becomes workers finally being unable to get out of bed, to meet even the barest level of faking presence.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:47 PM on October 23, 2022 [27 favorites]
We haven't even mentioned the mass disabling event that must not be named.
posted by bleep at 2:48 PM on October 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by bleep at 2:48 PM on October 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
The well, actually in this thread is immense.
Look. Shit's bad. Is it apples to apples bad with the 1950s, or 1850s, or 1050s? I dunno.
In the U.S. we are rapidly moving to shedding even the pretense of fair elections for anybody. We've just watched the Supreme Court overturn a right that we've had protection for[1] something like ~50 years.
We're seeing naked cooperation between fascists, autocrats, dictators - whatever you want to call them like I've never seen in my lifetime. A Saudi prince can blatantly have journalists killed and our government won't blink an eye. Putin can back a complete moron thug into the White House and nearly half the voting population says "OK, gimme more of that!" Even after Putin decides to go after Ukraine, we can barely muster concern. We just watched Xi have his predecessor removed on TV. The GOP is openly embracing Viktor Orban.
The inequity between rich and poor seems to be increasing daily. We're watching at least two attempted genocides (Ukraine and Uyghurs -- though I'm sure there's more happening) in real time.
Oh, yeah. And we're living through a pandemic that didn't even have to happen on anything like the scale that it has taken on. But we're so dysfunctional as a society that we can't even embrace a few simple measures and work together to defeat that. And, I can't speak for anybody else, I have zero confidence that COVID is the last one we're going to see.
And we may be staring at mass disability for COVID survivors right as government is gleefully abandoning any responsibility for citizen healthcare or even the social nets that people my age have paid into for 30+ years. Should the GOP regain control of Congress and the White House, kiss social security goodbye.
It matters little to me whether life was worse at some other period in history. It doesn't need to be this way at all. We are going backwards. Rapidly. "yet to see the kind of violence we saw in the 60s"? Dunno. I live near Raleigh and just last week we had a mass shooting that took out five people, one of whom was on the outside of my social circle. I feel like we have plenty of violence, even if it's not taking the same shape as the 60s.
But don't worry – Tucker and Co. will keep stoking things until we start seeing that, too. The rhetoric around trans people, gay people and Jewish people seems to be getting worse and worse very quickly. And we have a lot more people with way worse weapons and eager to use them than you had in the 60s. And they're connected in a way that they weren't then, but in an even more advanced way than those in Rwanda who were spurred to genocide over the radio.
Hate crimes have been on the increase since 2016. They continue to rise in 2022.
Also? Our technology gives government handy new tools for oppression and suppression that they didn't have in the 60s or ever before.
I could go on and on and on and on. It'd be nice if folks would stop with the well, actually'ing and jibes at how this group or that group is just now noticing shit. Yep, shit's always been bad. No, I don't think it's been this bad before in my life time. Maybe people are just now noticing because shit has actually gotten worse and certainly has gotten more blatant.
Hey, if I find out tomorrow I have late-stage cancer it may mean I missed some signs before. Doesn't mean I don't have serious trouble. And it doesn't mean I have it worse (or better) than others who've had my condition or similar. It means shit's bad.
Right now it feels like every day we're getting reports on just how bad and getting worse our society's cancer really is -- of course people have trouble functioning in the face of that. Telling them "well, actually, it was even worse way back when" doesn't help. Leave the perspective to the historians, if the species survives and they're allowed to actually publish factual history in 50 years.
[1] I do not believe rights are things you can vote away. Women do have the right to choose, even if government tries to suppress it.
posted by jzb at 2:50 PM on October 23, 2022 [18 favorites]
Look. Shit's bad. Is it apples to apples bad with the 1950s, or 1850s, or 1050s? I dunno.
In the U.S. we are rapidly moving to shedding even the pretense of fair elections for anybody. We've just watched the Supreme Court overturn a right that we've had protection for[1] something like ~50 years.
We're seeing naked cooperation between fascists, autocrats, dictators - whatever you want to call them like I've never seen in my lifetime. A Saudi prince can blatantly have journalists killed and our government won't blink an eye. Putin can back a complete moron thug into the White House and nearly half the voting population says "OK, gimme more of that!" Even after Putin decides to go after Ukraine, we can barely muster concern. We just watched Xi have his predecessor removed on TV. The GOP is openly embracing Viktor Orban.
The inequity between rich and poor seems to be increasing daily. We're watching at least two attempted genocides (Ukraine and Uyghurs -- though I'm sure there's more happening) in real time.
Oh, yeah. And we're living through a pandemic that didn't even have to happen on anything like the scale that it has taken on. But we're so dysfunctional as a society that we can't even embrace a few simple measures and work together to defeat that. And, I can't speak for anybody else, I have zero confidence that COVID is the last one we're going to see.
And we may be staring at mass disability for COVID survivors right as government is gleefully abandoning any responsibility for citizen healthcare or even the social nets that people my age have paid into for 30+ years. Should the GOP regain control of Congress and the White House, kiss social security goodbye.
It matters little to me whether life was worse at some other period in history. It doesn't need to be this way at all. We are going backwards. Rapidly. "yet to see the kind of violence we saw in the 60s"? Dunno. I live near Raleigh and just last week we had a mass shooting that took out five people, one of whom was on the outside of my social circle. I feel like we have plenty of violence, even if it's not taking the same shape as the 60s.
But don't worry – Tucker and Co. will keep stoking things until we start seeing that, too. The rhetoric around trans people, gay people and Jewish people seems to be getting worse and worse very quickly. And we have a lot more people with way worse weapons and eager to use them than you had in the 60s. And they're connected in a way that they weren't then, but in an even more advanced way than those in Rwanda who were spurred to genocide over the radio.
Hate crimes have been on the increase since 2016. They continue to rise in 2022.
Also? Our technology gives government handy new tools for oppression and suppression that they didn't have in the 60s or ever before.
I could go on and on and on and on. It'd be nice if folks would stop with the well, actually'ing and jibes at how this group or that group is just now noticing shit. Yep, shit's always been bad. No, I don't think it's been this bad before in my life time. Maybe people are just now noticing because shit has actually gotten worse and certainly has gotten more blatant.
Hey, if I find out tomorrow I have late-stage cancer it may mean I missed some signs before. Doesn't mean I don't have serious trouble. And it doesn't mean I have it worse (or better) than others who've had my condition or similar. It means shit's bad.
Right now it feels like every day we're getting reports on just how bad and getting worse our society's cancer really is -- of course people have trouble functioning in the face of that. Telling them "well, actually, it was even worse way back when" doesn't help. Leave the perspective to the historians, if the species survives and they're allowed to actually publish factual history in 50 years.
[1] I do not believe rights are things you can vote away. Women do have the right to choose, even if government tries to suppress it.
posted by jzb at 2:50 PM on October 23, 2022 [18 favorites]
I'm stressed about the American Psychological Association becoming such an outright product/service lobbyist group that they hire a polling firm instead of using some of the research practitioners that make up their membership to do this research and then publish it as PR marketing release rather than as peer reviewed science in one of their own journals all in order to chase clicks and media attention.
As far as I know, most academic researchers conducting national surveys of the general public rely on polling firms to do so. Some research institutions may maintain in-house polling research cores for large-scale surveys, but for psychology researchers to spend their own time on contacting respondents and administering surveys is not a good use of resources. Professional polling firms have the resources to do so at scale, and have often already identified representative survey populations to sample from, which can improve survey validity. The use of polling firms for social science research trying to measure a representative sample of the national population seems entirely normal and common to me, and I don't see how this is an indication of the APA becoming "an outright product/service lobbyist group".
The 2022 "Stress in America" survey is part of a series of surveys the APA has run since 2007. The APA does have a companion organization, called "APA Services", which is an advocacy/lobbyist organization. It's not clear to me that the lobbying activities of the APA are out of step with its scientific mission, or that the "Stress in America" survey is incompatible with its stated advocacy aims.
posted by biogeo at 2:59 PM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
I agree with those saying that what is new is that everything in life seems to be changing at a faster rate than before, and life seems out of control. Sometimes these changes aren't particularly consequential, but a lot of them are (a number of established careers paths have vanished in recent decades, and the costs of college have far outpaced inflation). And even if someone isn't on social media, they may have to content with the impact of social media - I'm thinking of teachers who are the target of Rufo and other right-wing hacks. Or nurses having to contend with vitriol from anti-maskers.
Then there is the absolutely bonkers housing market, for buyers or renters. Seriously, everyone I know who doesn't own a home (which is basically everyone I know) is really concerned that they will be forever at the whims of landlords squeezing more and more of their paycheck. It feels very unmanageable, and there are no good solutions besides becoming wealthy somehow (ha ha). This is of course linked to the growing wealth inequality in the country.
And then you have the fascist wing of the Republican Party trying to take hold of various state offices that will allow them to steal elections in the future, and they might do it. And while we can all do our due diligence of making calls and registering voters in our communities, what happens next month feels fairly outside our control. And don't get me started on the Supreme Court....
COVID and future disease outbreak - also a space of feeling hopeless/ lack of control.
Climate change, particularly hurricane, fires, tornadoes, and other disasters - another reason to feel like little of our future is in our control.
In short, I think the lack of control or ability to predict one's future is what's new. Sure, in the past people didn't know if their son would return from the front, but they were more likely to belong to a union with some form of job security, didn't have to wonder whether their city might be underwater in a few decades, or whether a deranged "business man" might manage to rig a presidential election in two years. Not suggesting the past was rosy, but there is something different going on these days.
posted by coffeecat at 3:11 PM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
Then there is the absolutely bonkers housing market, for buyers or renters. Seriously, everyone I know who doesn't own a home (which is basically everyone I know) is really concerned that they will be forever at the whims of landlords squeezing more and more of their paycheck. It feels very unmanageable, and there are no good solutions besides becoming wealthy somehow (ha ha). This is of course linked to the growing wealth inequality in the country.
And then you have the fascist wing of the Republican Party trying to take hold of various state offices that will allow them to steal elections in the future, and they might do it. And while we can all do our due diligence of making calls and registering voters in our communities, what happens next month feels fairly outside our control. And don't get me started on the Supreme Court....
COVID and future disease outbreak - also a space of feeling hopeless/ lack of control.
Climate change, particularly hurricane, fires, tornadoes, and other disasters - another reason to feel like little of our future is in our control.
In short, I think the lack of control or ability to predict one's future is what's new. Sure, in the past people didn't know if their son would return from the front, but they were more likely to belong to a union with some form of job security, didn't have to wonder whether their city might be underwater in a few decades, or whether a deranged "business man" might manage to rig a presidential election in two years. Not suggesting the past was rosy, but there is something different going on these days.
posted by coffeecat at 3:11 PM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
I refuse to believe that this time is somehow worse than all other times in human history. Maybe there is more awareness of the things that are unjust and frightening than ever (as well as people who stand to profit and/or consolidate power through that fear and uncertainty and discontent).
Don't get me wrong, climate change is fucking scary, and the worst anxiety I've ever had was during the early days of Covid spreading in the US before my employer was willing to let people remote work. But then, I came of age in the 80s when I contemplated the existential threat of nuclear war on a nearly daily basis. And I know for a fact I was not alive for the worst miseries of the 20th century, much less all of history.
posted by Foosnark at 3:36 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Don't get me wrong, climate change is fucking scary, and the worst anxiety I've ever had was during the early days of Covid spreading in the US before my employer was willing to let people remote work. But then, I came of age in the 80s when I contemplated the existential threat of nuclear war on a nearly daily basis. And I know for a fact I was not alive for the worst miseries of the 20th century, much less all of history.
posted by Foosnark at 3:36 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
These are the kind of survey results that feel true -- certainly I have not felt my best for a few years now -- but I think it's worth asking ourselves what it is that this group specifically gets out of administering this survey and publicizing these results. My first guess: attention from Congress focused on mental health, in the hopes that that will turn into money for the membership.
I used to be an APA member. Their abhorrent covert support of torture when Bush was president convinced me to drop my membership, once I felt I couldn't give them the benefit of the doubt any longer. That's where my hesitation to take this at face value comes from. In that case, I believe the interest being served was a cozy relationship with the military. This is not the same, but I'm still aware every time I see a press release from that organization that they are pretty canny about what they say publicly and why.
For the curious, it looks like you can access archived Stress in America survey data through ICSPR. Here is a press release from the first year the survey was administered.
posted by eirias at 3:38 PM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
I used to be an APA member. Their abhorrent covert support of torture when Bush was president convinced me to drop my membership, once I felt I couldn't give them the benefit of the doubt any longer. That's where my hesitation to take this at face value comes from. In that case, I believe the interest being served was a cozy relationship with the military. This is not the same, but I'm still aware every time I see a press release from that organization that they are pretty canny about what they say publicly and why.
For the curious, it looks like you can access archived Stress in America survey data through ICSPR. Here is a press release from the first year the survey was administered.
posted by eirias at 3:38 PM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah but at least you could go into buildings without thinking twice about it.
posted by bleep at 3:39 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 3:39 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
As a historian and history nerd, yeah I agree, comparing things to the past is a useless exercise.
There are many ways in which things are better, and yes to some extent our anxiety is fueled by a vaster influx of information about things going on around the world. But I would counter that that anxiety is also validated by the fact that many of these anxieties are GLOBAL. This sort of event and awareness of it is something we really didn't have before the 20th century. World wars, the idea of a global nuclear exchange, truly global pandemics.
We struggle to wrap our heads around these existential threats as the global threats they are. I think this is a stretch for human psychology. We are deeply instilled with the capacity to handle acute crisis, to handle it well in many cases. But these ongoing relentless crises impact us differently.
In fact if we want a historical analog, not the Black death itself, but the three to 400 years of the second plague pandemic across Europe. Vast paradigm shifting cultural changes were enacted across every aspect of society and human life. A single epidemic of plague, even one as bad as the Black death, would not have caused such groundbreaking changes.
posted by supermedusa at 3:54 PM on October 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
There are many ways in which things are better, and yes to some extent our anxiety is fueled by a vaster influx of information about things going on around the world. But I would counter that that anxiety is also validated by the fact that many of these anxieties are GLOBAL. This sort of event and awareness of it is something we really didn't have before the 20th century. World wars, the idea of a global nuclear exchange, truly global pandemics.
We struggle to wrap our heads around these existential threats as the global threats they are. I think this is a stretch for human psychology. We are deeply instilled with the capacity to handle acute crisis, to handle it well in many cases. But these ongoing relentless crises impact us differently.
In fact if we want a historical analog, not the Black death itself, but the three to 400 years of the second plague pandemic across Europe. Vast paradigm shifting cultural changes were enacted across every aspect of society and human life. A single epidemic of plague, even one as bad as the Black death, would not have caused such groundbreaking changes.
posted by supermedusa at 3:54 PM on October 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
This Week in Virology yesterday mentioned a CDC pandemic report on high school students; last year, 20% experienced suicidal ideation and 10% attempted suicide.
I'm not an expert so I'm not trained to read the statistics but unless the APA and CDC are both mistaken or ideologically driven, such similar conclusions don't sound implausible to me, even if they are surprising.
posted by polymodus at 4:25 PM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm not an expert so I'm not trained to read the statistics but unless the APA and CDC are both mistaken or ideologically driven, such similar conclusions don't sound implausible to me, even if they are surprising.
posted by polymodus at 4:25 PM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
We expect above +4°C with tipping points, so projections by folks like Will Steffen say the tropics become uninhabitable, and the earth's carrying capacity drops below one billion humans, but..
Artw> We’re looking at the possible extinction of the human race within 50 years
I'm fairly sure 50 years is too soon for human extinction.
We've only like 50% odds of "synchronous maize crop failure" before 2050. We'll roughly triple carrying capacity for humans once we end livestock, chickens, etc. and force everyone to go vegan. We'll find nice tweaks around which plants we eat too.
We'll ban food exports so food importing nations starve fast, while food exporters starve much slower. We'll adopt mass cannibalism anywhere really drastic famines hit, which'll save some people. Inequality to the rescue!
Candleman> We're looking at a deeply unpleasant future but there is nothing plausible that would cause extinction.
We do not know our situation for many planetary boundaries, nor exactly how each poses extinction risks. We should therefore rate extinction as possible within 200 years and likely if we fail to reign in our consumption.
“No civilization can possibly survive to an interstellar spacefaring phase unless it limits its numbers” (and consumption) ― Carl Sagan
kittens for breakfast> A full-fledged nuclear conflict is not something humanity will survive in any meaningful way.
At a global scale, climate change shall be worse than nuclear war in every meaningful respect:
We'll never cause nuclear winter because each summer we release far more hot soot from forest fires than occurs in nuclear winter models (previously). Also we'll definitely survive the fallout because our atmospheric test released more (previously).
We might cause a nuclear summer aka wrecking the ozone layer for 15 years, but Anderson says climate change shall create a wet stratosphere that destroys the ozone layer, presumably for way more than 15 years. We do expect famines after a nuclear war, but nowhere near as terrifying as "synchronous maize crop failure".
I'll now pose the "fun" question: Could nuclear war help us stop climate change? It's complicated..
posted by jeffburdges at 4:34 PM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
Artw> We’re looking at the possible extinction of the human race within 50 years
I'm fairly sure 50 years is too soon for human extinction.
We've only like 50% odds of "synchronous maize crop failure" before 2050. We'll roughly triple carrying capacity for humans once we end livestock, chickens, etc. and force everyone to go vegan. We'll find nice tweaks around which plants we eat too.
We'll ban food exports so food importing nations starve fast, while food exporters starve much slower. We'll adopt mass cannibalism anywhere really drastic famines hit, which'll save some people. Inequality to the rescue!
Candleman> We're looking at a deeply unpleasant future but there is nothing plausible that would cause extinction.
We do not know our situation for many planetary boundaries, nor exactly how each poses extinction risks. We should therefore rate extinction as possible within 200 years and likely if we fail to reign in our consumption.
“No civilization can possibly survive to an interstellar spacefaring phase unless it limits its numbers” (and consumption) ― Carl Sagan
kittens for breakfast> A full-fledged nuclear conflict is not something humanity will survive in any meaningful way.
At a global scale, climate change shall be worse than nuclear war in every meaningful respect:
We'll never cause nuclear winter because each summer we release far more hot soot from forest fires than occurs in nuclear winter models (previously). Also we'll definitely survive the fallout because our atmospheric test released more (previously).
We might cause a nuclear summer aka wrecking the ozone layer for 15 years, but Anderson says climate change shall create a wet stratosphere that destroys the ozone layer, presumably for way more than 15 years. We do expect famines after a nuclear war, but nowhere near as terrifying as "synchronous maize crop failure".
I'll now pose the "fun" question: Could nuclear war help us stop climate change? It's complicated..
posted by jeffburdges at 4:34 PM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm going to address two things and move on. One is this: humanity is only the Apex Predator as long as our health is good; once it fails, humanity is toast. Maybe we could somehow, by some definitions, survive a nuclear war, but how long would we live afterward? Not very long, is my guess; most adults over 40 or so require sustained medical intervention to be functional to Apex Predator requirements. For my part, I am a cancer survivor whose thyroid was killed by radiation treatment, I have congenital high blood pressure, and there is of course always the possibility that my cancer could recur. In a zombie apocalypse, I would be much more likely to die of a heart attack (or, in the event my glasses are destroyed, drive a car into a tree) than I would be to get eaten by the legions of the living dead, at least once I ran out of my medications. Society is, as a great man once opined, a web with many threads, and once those threads begin to snap, it does not take long for all of it to unravel. You are welcome to your go bags and your fantasies of survival after a nuclear war, I read the Death Lands books in high school too, but what I am trying to say is that if, even if, you somehow survive a nuclear war, if some weird militia of unfuckables somewhere high in the Colorado Rockies makes it, they will still die very soon, because we need each other to survive. Sorry.
I don't think this is really that important, though, as anything other than a masturbatory exercise, because it's not the problem we are facing. Not really. The problem we are facing is, frankly, capitalism, the problem of a political system that is separating people from the resources they need to live right now, today, in real life. People can't get the medical care they need without a fight, they can't pay their rent, they can't own a home, they're fucked. They're just totally fucked. And no one is doing a goddamned thing about any of it, we're talking about ridiculous sci-fi scenarios that will either never happen or are patently unsurvivable so who cares, really? It's just 3 am dorm room conversation.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:54 PM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
I don't think this is really that important, though, as anything other than a masturbatory exercise, because it's not the problem we are facing. Not really. The problem we are facing is, frankly, capitalism, the problem of a political system that is separating people from the resources they need to live right now, today, in real life. People can't get the medical care they need without a fight, they can't pay their rent, they can't own a home, they're fucked. They're just totally fucked. And no one is doing a goddamned thing about any of it, we're talking about ridiculous sci-fi scenarios that will either never happen or are patently unsurvivable so who cares, really? It's just 3 am dorm room conversation.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:54 PM on October 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
biogeo, I do not trust claims of 27% of folks non-functioning because (a) I think the evidence of failure would be incontrovertible, and because I suspect either (b) the framing is misleading, or (c) people are misrepresenting or misunderstanding their level of functionality.
This thread largely sailed past the "self-reported" aspect of the study and went right to how bad the world is or is not right now, including litanies of every conceivable thing that could be a stressor. My response was not out of keeping with that, not least because the article's framing seems to leap right from self-reported feelings of stress to actualities.
As to what's actually going on... I don't know the lived realities of all of the respondents, but I do think the framing or reporting of it is fairly absolutist ("so stressed they can't function"), leaving not a lot of room in my reading for nuance. Mumimor's point about what actually constitutes functioning is a really good one, and seems to me to go to the question of how one might more broadly interpret the statistic.
That said, it is my experience that people regularly exaggerate, misrepresent, and misremember their own experiences, and their feelings about those experiences, before we get to actual prevarication. Sometimes it's accidental, sometimes it's for laughs, sometimes it's malicious. Whatever the motivation, these things seem to be normative, and my life has certainly be full of people who do all of the above, with regard to their ability to function and otherwise. Again, the last few years have not been good, but I can think of any number of people I know who claim to be "unable to cope," or whatever, and who have kept on keeping on. They have, in fact, been able to cope, whatever their feelings about the world. Life may not be as easy or pleasant these days, but this doesn't mean life has stopped or is impossible (assuming one has not contracted Long Covid, become disabled, etc., etc.).
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:54 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
This thread largely sailed past the "self-reported" aspect of the study and went right to how bad the world is or is not right now, including litanies of every conceivable thing that could be a stressor. My response was not out of keeping with that, not least because the article's framing seems to leap right from self-reported feelings of stress to actualities.
As to what's actually going on... I don't know the lived realities of all of the respondents, but I do think the framing or reporting of it is fairly absolutist ("so stressed they can't function"), leaving not a lot of room in my reading for nuance. Mumimor's point about what actually constitutes functioning is a really good one, and seems to me to go to the question of how one might more broadly interpret the statistic.
That said, it is my experience that people regularly exaggerate, misrepresent, and misremember their own experiences, and their feelings about those experiences, before we get to actual prevarication. Sometimes it's accidental, sometimes it's for laughs, sometimes it's malicious. Whatever the motivation, these things seem to be normative, and my life has certainly be full of people who do all of the above, with regard to their ability to function and otherwise. Again, the last few years have not been good, but I can think of any number of people I know who claim to be "unable to cope," or whatever, and who have kept on keeping on. They have, in fact, been able to cope, whatever their feelings about the world. Life may not be as easy or pleasant these days, but this doesn't mean life has stopped or is impossible (assuming one has not contracted Long Covid, become disabled, etc., etc.).
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:54 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Telling them "well, actually, it was even worse way back when" doesn't help.
It may not be popular here, but this has been a running theme in many conversations I've had over the course of the pandemic. And, yes, it helped.
Leave the perspective to the historians, if the species survives and they're allowed to actually publish factual history in 50 years.
I don't think this is a good or reasonable suggestion. We should not avoid referencing history or taking a historical perspective in discussing what seems to be a notably disrupted period in human history. To condemn reference to history or use of historical perspective as "well, actually" seems (to me, YMMV) both dangerous and short-sighted. People regularly feel stressed out because things are terrible and they think the world is ending... so do you oppose the idea of encouraging people to hope and work for a better world, because, in fact, things may not be as bad as they seem?
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:10 PM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
It may not be popular here, but this has been a running theme in many conversations I've had over the course of the pandemic. And, yes, it helped.
Leave the perspective to the historians, if the species survives and they're allowed to actually publish factual history in 50 years.
I don't think this is a good or reasonable suggestion. We should not avoid referencing history or taking a historical perspective in discussing what seems to be a notably disrupted period in human history. To condemn reference to history or use of historical perspective as "well, actually" seems (to me, YMMV) both dangerous and short-sighted. People regularly feel stressed out because things are terrible and they think the world is ending... so do you oppose the idea of encouraging people to hope and work for a better world, because, in fact, things may not be as bad as they seem?
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:10 PM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think it's just people pushing back against the tendency for Metafilter to say "you can't have it that bad! Spiders Georg had to eat spiders in the past, so any self-reported suffering can't be *so* bad!", which is absolutely a tendency here. And I don't think anyone wants people to give up hope; people are just tired of having their worries invalidated as "not as bad as they seem".
On the other hand, go look in climate threads here, and examine both what other people are reporting there and what reading it does to your own stress levels. I don't think any statements of "not as bad as they seem" would be taken too well.
posted by sagc at 5:21 PM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
On the other hand, go look in climate threads here, and examine both what other people are reporting there and what reading it does to your own stress levels. I don't think any statements of "not as bad as they seem" would be taken too well.
posted by sagc at 5:21 PM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
What's the spread here? How much less stressed are say, the Finns, who have mitigated capitalism and a pretty extensive social safety net than we are?
posted by Selena777 at 5:26 PM on October 23, 2022
posted by Selena777 at 5:26 PM on October 23, 2022
i think "being able to function" is a subjective idea that is prone to exaggeration because of its vagueness
after all, the 27% who said they weren't able to function managed to fill out the survey, nonetheless
posted by pyramid termite at 5:32 PM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
after all, the 27% who said they weren't able to function managed to fill out the survey, nonetheless
posted by pyramid termite at 5:32 PM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
It seems that "not being able to function" can be interpreted as anywhere from "can't do something they wanted to do" to "entirely comatose".
posted by meowzilla at 6:06 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by meowzilla at 6:06 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
>Fixing systemic problems can lower stress, but most of us have few opportunities to do this.
I deeply deeply deeply disagree with this statement. I just completed a 2 month contract job. During that time, I:
- Hired 8 POCs and 15 openly LGBTQ+ people into the one position I had influence over
- Upgraded their responsibilities slightly so I could bump their rate of pay by a full level
- Asked for them to have a job title boost so the gig would look better on their resumes
- Asked for a washroom in the building to get an all-gender sign
- Arranged for the workplace to provide free menstrual products in the washrooms
- Got pronoun buttons made for everyone, to be worn if they desired but not enforced
- Made an explainer poster about pronouns and how to use them
- Called out a racist part of the system and had it actually change noticeably within just 2 months
- Drastically increased the representation of racialized, queer, and disabled people in the company's visual materials
And this wasn't why I did it, but it DID lower my stress, tremendously. I slept waaay better at the end of that 2 months knowing I actually DID STUFF to help share money, resources, and status more equitably even in my small radius of influence.
At the same time in my personal life, I:
- Outlined to a manager in detail how a staff member was racist to a customer in a shop I was in (and was thanked by his coworker who followed me out)
- Bought my kids' classroom a book about an Indigenous child with a story not rooted in trauma so they could read something after Truth and Reconciliation day that would introduce an Indigenous culture in a positive way too
We all live and work within systems. We all have influence. I swear to god when people say "oh I have no influence" I can only see it as weaponized incompetence. For pete's sake send an email.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:25 PM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
I deeply deeply deeply disagree with this statement. I just completed a 2 month contract job. During that time, I:
- Hired 8 POCs and 15 openly LGBTQ+ people into the one position I had influence over
- Upgraded their responsibilities slightly so I could bump their rate of pay by a full level
- Asked for them to have a job title boost so the gig would look better on their resumes
- Asked for a washroom in the building to get an all-gender sign
- Arranged for the workplace to provide free menstrual products in the washrooms
- Got pronoun buttons made for everyone, to be worn if they desired but not enforced
- Made an explainer poster about pronouns and how to use them
- Called out a racist part of the system and had it actually change noticeably within just 2 months
- Drastically increased the representation of racialized, queer, and disabled people in the company's visual materials
And this wasn't why I did it, but it DID lower my stress, tremendously. I slept waaay better at the end of that 2 months knowing I actually DID STUFF to help share money, resources, and status more equitably even in my small radius of influence.
At the same time in my personal life, I:
- Outlined to a manager in detail how a staff member was racist to a customer in a shop I was in (and was thanked by his coworker who followed me out)
- Bought my kids' classroom a book about an Indigenous child with a story not rooted in trauma so they could read something after Truth and Reconciliation day that would introduce an Indigenous culture in a positive way too
We all live and work within systems. We all have influence. I swear to god when people say "oh I have no influence" I can only see it as weaponized incompetence. For pete's sake send an email.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:25 PM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
America's suicide rate is 14.5 per 100k vs Europe's rate of 10.5, Selena777, making American 38% worse. Africa claims 11.2 btw. All of Finland, Sweden, and Norway rank worse than Europe, so long dark winters hurt Europe. I'd therefore conjecture American capitalism worsens suicide rates by more than 40% vs European capitalism, which already causes stress, but maybe some specific capitalism effects like public mental health care dominate.
We'd capitalism in happier times though too, and suicide is a different problem, so I'll still conjecture physical constraints upon the economy likely dominate the problem discussed here.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:40 PM on October 23, 2022
We'd capitalism in happier times though too, and suicide is a different problem, so I'll still conjecture physical constraints upon the economy likely dominate the problem discussed here.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:40 PM on October 23, 2022
this is a frustrating thread. Way too much undercurrent of "I don't care what your grasp of history tells you -- shut up and let me wallow in despair". It's almost as if 27% of US Adults are so stressed they feel they can't function due to inflation, violence and crime, the current political climate, and the racial climate and
posted by philip-random at 6:54 PM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 6:54 PM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
I made it to the End of History and all I got was crushing anxiety.
posted by Pyry at 6:59 PM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Pyry at 6:59 PM on October 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
I refuse to believe that this time is somehow worse than all other times in human history.
Fair enough.
Some of us are currently in anger, bargaining, depression and/or acceptance and that's fair enough too.
posted by flabdablet at 7:04 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Fair enough.
Some of us are currently in anger, bargaining, depression and/or acceptance and that's fair enough too.
posted by flabdablet at 7:04 PM on October 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
COVID and future disease outbreak - also a space of feeling hopeless/ lack of control.
Yeah, it's not about the threat of Covid or Katrina in itself, it's the response. Increasing disorder in the breakdown of a complacent society.
(Meanwhile in Canada, it's not about Covid, but about the disintegration of health care systems while complacent voters re-elect the Conservative Govts that cause it.)
We're due for a shake-up. Interesting times. It's a shame because we have all the resources to make a nice world here, if it's possible.
posted by ovvl at 7:11 PM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, it's not about the threat of Covid or Katrina in itself, it's the response. Increasing disorder in the breakdown of a complacent society.
(Meanwhile in Canada, it's not about Covid, but about the disintegration of health care systems while complacent voters re-elect the Conservative Govts that cause it.)
We're due for a shake-up. Interesting times. It's a shame because we have all the resources to make a nice world here, if it's possible.
posted by ovvl at 7:11 PM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Speaking purely personally, my parents were born in 1966. You have to go back to my grandparents for any real memory of either of those times; I certainly don't have any personal memory of either.
It seems kind of silly to assume that Americans today would, en masse, meaningfully be able to compare the experiences of living fifty to seventy years ago with the experience of living today.
I'm confused by this kind of comment. Maybe you misunderstood why I was talking about how grim things were in the 1940s and the 1960s.
I wasn't alive in those days either. I don't assume most Americans would be able to remember those time periods, any more than I can.
My point is that I -- and anyone -- can learn about and reflect on those times in history... and in so doing, gain perspective on the fact that things have been really bad before, and "we" (meaning the human race as a whole) found ways to survive and thrive in spite of everything going on at the time.
And we can thereby put our current moment into a broader context.
We don't actually know what will happen in the next 5, 10, 15, o r 20 years. This can be a source of stress and anxiety. But it can also leave us some room for hope. People are creative and improvisational, and many good people are currently working hard in various ways (many of which most of us probably don't know about) to make things better. And some of those efforts will succeed in ways that we can't imagine. This happened in the past, and it can happen again.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:13 PM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
It seems kind of silly to assume that Americans today would, en masse, meaningfully be able to compare the experiences of living fifty to seventy years ago with the experience of living today.
I'm confused by this kind of comment. Maybe you misunderstood why I was talking about how grim things were in the 1940s and the 1960s.
I wasn't alive in those days either. I don't assume most Americans would be able to remember those time periods, any more than I can.
My point is that I -- and anyone -- can learn about and reflect on those times in history... and in so doing, gain perspective on the fact that things have been really bad before, and "we" (meaning the human race as a whole) found ways to survive and thrive in spite of everything going on at the time.
And we can thereby put our current moment into a broader context.
We don't actually know what will happen in the next 5, 10, 15, o r 20 years. This can be a source of stress and anxiety. But it can also leave us some room for hope. People are creative and improvisational, and many good people are currently working hard in various ways (many of which most of us probably don't know about) to make things better. And some of those efforts will succeed in ways that we can't imagine. This happened in the past, and it can happen again.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:13 PM on October 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
Jeffburdges suicide may be an imperfect metric to evaluate stress level because it overlaps with our gun situation, and choice/availability of implement has an impact on attempted vs. completed suicides.
posted by Selena777 at 7:19 PM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 7:19 PM on October 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't know the lived realities of all of the respondents, but I do think the framing or reporting of it is fairly absolutist ("so stressed they can't function"), leaving not a lot of room in my reading for nuance. Mumimor's point about what actually constitutes functioning is a really good one, and seems to me to go to the question of how one might more broadly interpret the statistic.
I'd like to gently suggest that your interpretation of them interpreting "so stressed they can't function" in an "absolutist" fashion may just reflect how you interpreted of the phrase, rather than the study's interpretation. I don't see anywhere in the press release where they attempted to define what "functioning" is, nor do they seem to have done so in the wording of the survey question. This means that "functioning" is completely subjective to each survey respondent: it is up to them to decide what it means to agree or disagree with the statement "Most days I am so stressed I can't function." Mumimor's very good point about what actually constitutes functioning is indeed the right way to think about it, and I would expect a social scientist using this survey question to be thinking of it in those terms.
This is the first year they used that question, so there's no trend data available for how it may have changed over time. However, as a point of comparison for its internal validity, at least, they also asked subjects to agree or disagree with the statement "I can get things done even when I am feeling stressed." 72% of respondents agreed (somewhat or strongly) with this statement, which is a slightly less subjective one than the "I can't function" question. If respondents were interpreting "I can't function" as essentially the opposite of "I can get things done," then these two questions match essentially perfectly.
I don't know what "able to function" means to the survey respondents, nor do I know what it means to many of you here. I do know that, for example, within the last year I've been trying repeatedly to get a plumber to come to my house to fix a broken bathtub drain so we can sell our house and move to where my new job is located. I've had multiple plumbers come to the house, take a look, say they're definitely interested in the job and they'll give me a call to schedule follow-up and/or give a quote... and then ghost me. Some of these are people I've worked with in the past and feel like we had a good working relationship. One of them caught covid during the first year of the pandemic and was hospitalized and nearly died. He told me he has family who still thinks the pandemic was basically a hoax or a media hysteria despite knowing he nearly died from it. Personally it's really frustrating dealing with this situation on my end, but... I can easily imagine the level of stress he and the other contractors I've had come out have been going through over the past few years. They're still working and still doing other jobs, and I don't know why they're ghosting me, but I can definitely imagine that it could just be that they're dealing with way too much in their lives, and a job like mine that is too big to be a small job but too small to be a big job is just the sort of thing that can slip through the cracks. If you were to ask them whether they're "functioning," they might think "Shit, yeah, I'm still working but I'm dropping clients because I'm too stressed. I'm definitely not functioning right."
Now, of course, I don't know for sure what's going on with any of these plumbers; maybe they're just ghosting me because they think I'm an asshole. But if you tell me 27% of people say that they feel so stressed that on most days they can't function, I look at the evidence around me and that honestly makes sense. At least where I live, people aren't doing well.
posted by biogeo at 7:36 PM on October 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
suicide may be an imperfect metric to evaluate stress level because it overlaps with our gun situation
True, but suicidal ideation has seen a noticeable uptick among Gen-Z, and I'd argue that Gen-Z has experienced more loss of control than most generations (the shift to remote learning, the fact the climate crisis will impact them more, coming of age in the 2009 recession).
Way too much undercurrent of "I don't care what your grasp of history tells you -- shut up and let me wallow in despair".
I don't see anyone doing that here - rather, I see some people suggesting that the statistic of "27% of US Adults Say They’re So Stressed They Can’t Function" is not hyperbole or a sign that people these days are weak, but that something real is behind it, and it's worth taking seriously.
posted by coffeecat at 7:37 PM on October 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
True, but suicidal ideation has seen a noticeable uptick among Gen-Z, and I'd argue that Gen-Z has experienced more loss of control than most generations (the shift to remote learning, the fact the climate crisis will impact them more, coming of age in the 2009 recession).
Way too much undercurrent of "I don't care what your grasp of history tells you -- shut up and let me wallow in despair".
I don't see anyone doing that here - rather, I see some people suggesting that the statistic of "27% of US Adults Say They’re So Stressed They Can’t Function" is not hyperbole or a sign that people these days are weak, but that something real is behind it, and it's worth taking seriously.
posted by coffeecat at 7:37 PM on October 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
Hyperfocusing on the exact "real" meaning of "not able to function" is honestly something of a disappointing response to a data set that is actually fairly detailed regarding the ongoing impacts of the felt levels of stress for adults in America. Here is the paragraph immediately following the statistic on not being able to function:
I also do not think that media or social media ecosystems are primarily responsible for the heightened stress that I see around me (and experience). I say this because one of the major factors that I have experienced as an extended trauma inducing experience has been consequences of repeated flooding due to climate change, because many of the problems I struggle with at work stem from supply chain disruptions and frequent sick outs, because day to day unpredictability is so much higher. I curate my social media pretty aggressively and deliberately focus my responsibility on a few things that I can have a direct influence on; that doesn't stop the other external stressors and constant tire fires from flaring up every few weeks.
I do think it is important to both validate that many people are struggling very badly right now and also that there are things we can do to exert control over our environments. I am really annoyed and disappointed that the discussion keeps oscillating between "this result is over exaggerated because it's not the worst time ever and probably people are making up their reported stress levels" and "no actually this is the worst time and there's nothing we can do at all except wait for the extinction of the human species." I mean, stress and trauma do tend to make us collapse our perceptions of the world into all or nothing binaries, but that is all the more reason to be careful about making sure we aren't doing that.
It is possible both that astronomical numbers of people are stumbling through work and life in a an exhausted, non-functional or barely functional state because of stress and that humans have survived through objectively worse conditions in history and made those conditions meaningfully better. It is possible for us to acknowledge that for many people, the cumulative stress and trauma of the past seven years is literally brain-breaking, while also acknowledging that we live in a world that is in many ways full of hope and reasons for sincere optimism.
Let us cultivate nuance, please. I don't see any reason to think that suddenly people are exaggerating their mental states now when they weren't in previous years--remember, this is a study that has been administered yearly for fifteen years--or that the APA is exaggerating the strain on the general population for nebulous and unclear reasons of its own.
posted by sciatrix at 7:38 PM on October 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
Nearly two in five adults (37%) reported that when they are stressed, they can’t bring themselves to do anything. Around a fifth of adults also reported experiencing forgetfulness (21%), an inability to concentrate (20%), and difficulty making decisions (17%) in the last month due to stress. Adults with a higher average stress level were more likely than those with a lower average stress level to report experiencing forgetfulness (39% vs. 7%), the inability to concentrate (38% vs. 6%), and difficulty making decisions (31% vs. 5%).All of these things are extremely consistent with both toxic stress and post stress trauma, and all of them are things that make "functioning" at work or school very difficult. I note that the article also points out that Black Americans and younger (under 35) Americans are dealing with especially high stress levels; I can tell you from my professional experience that I see a ton of stress, fear, and uncertainty from students who entered or graduated college or grad school in the past few years. The high rate of cumulative stress in queer people might be partly an artifact of age, but it also might be because queer people are particularly likely to be disconnected from families of origin and support networks.
I also do not think that media or social media ecosystems are primarily responsible for the heightened stress that I see around me (and experience). I say this because one of the major factors that I have experienced as an extended trauma inducing experience has been consequences of repeated flooding due to climate change, because many of the problems I struggle with at work stem from supply chain disruptions and frequent sick outs, because day to day unpredictability is so much higher. I curate my social media pretty aggressively and deliberately focus my responsibility on a few things that I can have a direct influence on; that doesn't stop the other external stressors and constant tire fires from flaring up every few weeks.
I do think it is important to both validate that many people are struggling very badly right now and also that there are things we can do to exert control over our environments. I am really annoyed and disappointed that the discussion keeps oscillating between "this result is over exaggerated because it's not the worst time ever and probably people are making up their reported stress levels" and "no actually this is the worst time and there's nothing we can do at all except wait for the extinction of the human species." I mean, stress and trauma do tend to make us collapse our perceptions of the world into all or nothing binaries, but that is all the more reason to be careful about making sure we aren't doing that.
It is possible both that astronomical numbers of people are stumbling through work and life in a an exhausted, non-functional or barely functional state because of stress and that humans have survived through objectively worse conditions in history and made those conditions meaningfully better. It is possible for us to acknowledge that for many people, the cumulative stress and trauma of the past seven years is literally brain-breaking, while also acknowledging that we live in a world that is in many ways full of hope and reasons for sincere optimism.
Let us cultivate nuance, please. I don't see any reason to think that suddenly people are exaggerating their mental states now when they weren't in previous years--remember, this is a study that has been administered yearly for fifteen years--or that the APA is exaggerating the strain on the general population for nebulous and unclear reasons of its own.
posted by sciatrix at 7:38 PM on October 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
I'm confused by this kind of comment. Maybe you misunderstood why I was talking about how grim things were in the 1940s and the 1960s.
I wasn't alive in those days either. I don't assume most Americans would be able to remember those time periods, any more than I can.
My point is that this is a survey not about whether this is the most historically stressful time that has ever existed in America, but about the levels of stress that people are reporting grappling with right now.
I do actually think there is a lot of value in talking about historically stressful, exhausting, and horrible times, and how we survived them and tried imperfectly to make the world better. My objection is that I think it's a really bad idea to use those historical lessons to tell people who are struggling now that it could be worse, so their despair or difficulty coping is overblown--and I think it is incredibly important to avoid sending that message to people who are struggling.
The trick when it comes to telling these stories is to say not "these people had it worse, and they made it through." (Not all of them did, for one thing!) The trick is instead to say, "your struggle is part of the arc of history, just as the struggles of everyone who came before you have been. history tells us that even when things look dire and exhausting, we can still take actions that keep things from being even worse; collectively, we can change the arc of terrifying developments, stop them, and build a better world together even in the face of great calamity."
The trick is, then, to validate distress--acknowledge the fear or the exhaustion--and then link those feelings to stories about other people who have struggled. If you start by saying "it could be worse," people often interpret that as a rejection of the problems they are struggling with right now.
And again: this is a survey about what people are feeling and experiencing today.
posted by sciatrix at 7:46 PM on October 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
I wasn't alive in those days either. I don't assume most Americans would be able to remember those time periods, any more than I can.
My point is that this is a survey not about whether this is the most historically stressful time that has ever existed in America, but about the levels of stress that people are reporting grappling with right now.
I do actually think there is a lot of value in talking about historically stressful, exhausting, and horrible times, and how we survived them and tried imperfectly to make the world better. My objection is that I think it's a really bad idea to use those historical lessons to tell people who are struggling now that it could be worse, so their despair or difficulty coping is overblown--and I think it is incredibly important to avoid sending that message to people who are struggling.
The trick when it comes to telling these stories is to say not "these people had it worse, and they made it through." (Not all of them did, for one thing!) The trick is instead to say, "your struggle is part of the arc of history, just as the struggles of everyone who came before you have been. history tells us that even when things look dire and exhausting, we can still take actions that keep things from being even worse; collectively, we can change the arc of terrifying developments, stop them, and build a better world together even in the face of great calamity."
The trick is, then, to validate distress--acknowledge the fear or the exhaustion--and then link those feelings to stories about other people who have struggled. If you start by saying "it could be worse," people often interpret that as a rejection of the problems they are struggling with right now.
And again: this is a survey about what people are feeling and experiencing today.
posted by sciatrix at 7:46 PM on October 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
The trick when it comes to telling these stories is to say not "these people had it worse, and they made it through." (Not all of them did, for one thing!)
Indeed. When I said "'we' (meaning the human race as a whole) found ways to survive and thrive" I was implicitly referring to that fact.
The trick is instead to say, "your struggle is part of the arc of history, just as the struggles of everyone who came before you have been. history tells us that even when things look dire and exhausting, we can still take actions that keep things from being even worse; collectively, we can change the arc of terrifying developments, stop them, and build a better world together even in the face of great calamity."
Yes, that is precisely what I've been trying to get across. It's not dismissing anyone's lived experienced of the current moment to put it in a broader perspective.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:49 PM on October 23, 2022
Indeed. When I said "'we' (meaning the human race as a whole) found ways to survive and thrive" I was implicitly referring to that fact.
The trick is instead to say, "your struggle is part of the arc of history, just as the struggles of everyone who came before you have been. history tells us that even when things look dire and exhausting, we can still take actions that keep things from being even worse; collectively, we can change the arc of terrifying developments, stop them, and build a better world together even in the face of great calamity."
Yes, that is precisely what I've been trying to get across. It's not dismissing anyone's lived experienced of the current moment to put it in a broader perspective.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:49 PM on October 23, 2022
or as Gandalf said in response to Frodo's wish that [bad bad things] hadn't happened in his times ...
"And so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
posted by philip-random at 9:30 PM on October 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
"And so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
posted by philip-random at 9:30 PM on October 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
Yoda and Picard probably said something relevant, too, but I don't have their books handy.
posted by philip-random at 9:32 PM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 9:32 PM on October 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
If my own life were representative of the situation at large, I'd say that it's probably true that 27% of people are so stressed that they have to drop at least some daily activities of living.
But if we treat my circle as representative, that's not because of the world at large, it's because one person is living a disaster mostly of their own making and leaves everyone around them to pick up the pieces while making it as difficult as they possibly can with their constant nitpicking, whining, complaining, and outright verbal abuse, all while claiming that nobody ever helps them and everyone is being so mean to them despite literally upending their lives for said person.
I swear to FSM that Facebook has turned a large fraction of society into machines that live only to manufacture grievance.
posted by wierdo at 12:17 AM on October 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
But if we treat my circle as representative, that's not because of the world at large, it's because one person is living a disaster mostly of their own making and leaves everyone around them to pick up the pieces while making it as difficult as they possibly can with their constant nitpicking, whining, complaining, and outright verbal abuse, all while claiming that nobody ever helps them and everyone is being so mean to them despite literally upending their lives for said person.
I swear to FSM that Facebook has turned a large fraction of society into machines that live only to manufacture grievance.
posted by wierdo at 12:17 AM on October 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
>They weren't around when I was a kid. What even are they
They're good dogs.
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 4:57 AM on October 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
They're good dogs.
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 4:57 AM on October 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
This thread is really weird, and I actually agree that 1 in3 'being able to function' is far too vague, the categories are borderline ridiculous (and I know a few people currently going through the US immigration process!), and don't match prevailing attitudes.
How could 1/3 be 'unable to function' due to gun violence thoughts, but 1/2 the country is voting for people who don't care about gun violence? Immigration? Monkeypox? really?
Also do none of you have parents? Grandparents? How could you not know anything about a time before you were born?
"This means that "functioning" is completely subjective to each survey respondent: it is up to them to decide what it means to agree or disagree with the statement "Most days I am so stressed I can't function."
Really? Fine, but I don't have to agree with their interpretation, any more than I am required to agree that immigration stressing out racist white people is a real problem. Lazy science works both ways.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:03 AM on October 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
How could 1/3 be 'unable to function' due to gun violence thoughts, but 1/2 the country is voting for people who don't care about gun violence? Immigration? Monkeypox? really?
Also do none of you have parents? Grandparents? How could you not know anything about a time before you were born?
"This means that "functioning" is completely subjective to each survey respondent: it is up to them to decide what it means to agree or disagree with the statement "Most days I am so stressed I can't function."
Really? Fine, but I don't have to agree with their interpretation, any more than I am required to agree that immigration stressing out racist white people is a real problem. Lazy science works both ways.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:03 AM on October 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Immigration stressing out racist white people is a fantastically huge problem; it's like half of why Donald Trump was elected.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:07 AM on October 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:07 AM on October 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
That's not an interpretation, it's just an inevitable consequence of asking a survey question. I'm honestly baffled at how difficult this is for people to accept. If you ask people to agree or disagree with the statement "Most days I am so stressed I can't function," and 27% of people agree with that statement, then what that means is... 27% of people say that most days they're so stressed they can't function. It's fine to interpret what that means. Maybe the survey design primed people to reflect on their stress levels in a way that caused them to overreport compared to what they might have in another context. Maybe respondents are using the question as a means of communicating to what they perceive as the scientific establishment how much they're hurting. Maybe people lied for some nefarious reason unbeknownst to us. Maybe people interpret the concept of "function" more loosely than some people here do. Maybe 27% of people are so stressed they can't function. But that interpretation comes after the observation. That's not lazy science, that's science.
Also, you don't think that immigration stressing out racist white people is a real problem? The stress of these racist white people brought us four years of the worst president in US history and a breakdown in civil society that's threatening the continued existence of our democracy. The fact that these racist white people shouldn't be stressed about immigration doesn't change the fact that they are, and regardless of the fact that their stress is unjustified, its existence is destroying our society and we need to find a way to deal with it. Ideally by educating them to let go of the real source of their stress, which is the racism. The fact that 54% of respondents identified "immigration" as a significant source of stress in their lives doesn't imply that eliminating immigration is the proper route for reducing stress, nor does observing that fact suggest an endorsement of that course of action. Rather, if 54% of people are identifying immigration as a significant source of stress, it tells us that we can't just ignore that and hope it goes away, we have to deal with it head-on by addressing the root cause, which again, is primarily the racism, and secondarily right-wing media hysteria.
Honestly a lot of the responses here remind me of the sort of people who respond to someone saying they're upset by explaining to them why they shouldn't be upset. As a tip, that's neither effective nor kind.
posted by biogeo at 9:14 AM on October 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
Also, you don't think that immigration stressing out racist white people is a real problem? The stress of these racist white people brought us four years of the worst president in US history and a breakdown in civil society that's threatening the continued existence of our democracy. The fact that these racist white people shouldn't be stressed about immigration doesn't change the fact that they are, and regardless of the fact that their stress is unjustified, its existence is destroying our society and we need to find a way to deal with it. Ideally by educating them to let go of the real source of their stress, which is the racism. The fact that 54% of respondents identified "immigration" as a significant source of stress in their lives doesn't imply that eliminating immigration is the proper route for reducing stress, nor does observing that fact suggest an endorsement of that course of action. Rather, if 54% of people are identifying immigration as a significant source of stress, it tells us that we can't just ignore that and hope it goes away, we have to deal with it head-on by addressing the root cause, which again, is primarily the racism, and secondarily right-wing media hysteria.
Honestly a lot of the responses here remind me of the sort of people who respond to someone saying they're upset by explaining to them why they shouldn't be upset. As a tip, that's neither effective nor kind.
posted by biogeo at 9:14 AM on October 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
To me "not able to function" means not able to function normally. If I'm so distracted at work I can't get through a normal task, that counts. So does not being able to remember I need dish soap when I went to the store directly to get it. So does not having the emotional energy to reach out to a friend who reached out to me. Etc. I feel very stressed at odd times lately and it absolutely comes from the past few years of fear, terrible news, and the erosion of what felt at least like a more tolerable society. Many of us are burned the fuck out. I'm still getting out of bed and finding joy but count me in the percentage of people who find it difficult to function normally an awful lot these days.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:23 AM on October 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:23 AM on October 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
We've lived through, and are living through, a collective trauma (the pandemic) which has changed in life in significant ways and affected or removed, temporarily, certain coping skills. I'm not sure why people aren't taking this into account when commenting on how these issues are "not as bad as they used to be." Maybe, but we have a diminished capacity to handle them.
I also think that while we are making progress as a society in many areas, many things are at a "reckoning point"; things are all kind of bubbling to the surface at once as part of this reckoning. Which is necessary, but painful and stressful.
Also, mass shootings are happening more frequently. AND we lived through a Trump presidency.
posted by bearette at 5:09 PM on October 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
I also think that while we are making progress as a society in many areas, many things are at a "reckoning point"; things are all kind of bubbling to the surface at once as part of this reckoning. Which is necessary, but painful and stressful.
Also, mass shootings are happening more frequently. AND we lived through a Trump presidency.
posted by bearette at 5:09 PM on October 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’ve got major caregiver stress (in the past year, four loved ones have survived life-threatening injuries or conditions) & am burned out, so there’s that.
But mostly, my stress comes from disillusionment and the justified fear that the key structures of our societies are breaking down. Five years ago, I would not have guessed fully 40% of people would lie about having COVID, for example, or do half the stupid, venal, hostile, and violent shit I either see daily live with my own eyes, or see reported somewhere. Social trust is gone (from local to global). Community is gone. Leadership is gone. The planet soon, too. In many ways, l’m lucky I’ve had to be responsible for people in life or death situations, or else I’d probably be gone (one way or another) as well. And yeah I bought Fukuyama’s line, and I’m devastated and can’t get over that he was wrong.
I know we can be better than we are currently, when times allow it. But “nasty, brutish, and short”, yeah that about covers it.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:24 PM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
But mostly, my stress comes from disillusionment and the justified fear that the key structures of our societies are breaking down. Five years ago, I would not have guessed fully 40% of people would lie about having COVID, for example, or do half the stupid, venal, hostile, and violent shit I either see daily live with my own eyes, or see reported somewhere. Social trust is gone (from local to global). Community is gone. Leadership is gone. The planet soon, too. In many ways, l’m lucky I’ve had to be responsible for people in life or death situations, or else I’d probably be gone (one way or another) as well. And yeah I bought Fukuyama’s line, and I’m devastated and can’t get over that he was wrong.
I know we can be better than we are currently, when times allow it. But “nasty, brutish, and short”, yeah that about covers it.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:24 PM on October 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
My thought was not that respondents were exaggerating but that because APA is not a neutral actor in this space, we should be careful to look for non population sampling and push poll style questions. I have nothing but sympathy for people who are struggling. Like I said, I’m not my best me either.
I realized one other thing I think feels off to me here. APA membership benefits by pushing individual solutions like therapy, but if it’s truly the case that a quarter of people are too stressed to function, that doesn’t suggest to me that what’s wrong is individual level stuff. Do we call it a mental health problem when someone is enduring spousal abuse, or a toxic boss? I wouldn’t, because that locates the problem in the victim. “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society,” as it were.
posted by eirias at 3:13 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I realized one other thing I think feels off to me here. APA membership benefits by pushing individual solutions like therapy, but if it’s truly the case that a quarter of people are too stressed to function, that doesn’t suggest to me that what’s wrong is individual level stuff. Do we call it a mental health problem when someone is enduring spousal abuse, or a toxic boss? I wouldn’t, because that locates the problem in the victim. “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society,” as it were.
posted by eirias at 3:13 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Our brains are still right here in this moment. However, we (most of us on here) can have just about any question answered in mere seconds. We can learn of ill and good from any part of the globe. How we feel about those things is grounded where ever we are at the moment. We are largely impotent to affect direct change in the thing that we want to change. Add social media to this mix and we are fed more content of the thing we cannot change. Then the content is custom crafted to get a reaction that a marketer or propagandist would like to see. The ratio of $ to downstream disruption is high so it is a profitable game. And the anxiety comes because we see it happening to us.
We now have vast context of information. How the pieces fit together and/or how to solve the puzzle can be disturbing and demoralizing.
posted by zerobyproxy at 6:55 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
We now have vast context of information. How the pieces fit together and/or how to solve the puzzle can be disturbing and demoralizing.
posted by zerobyproxy at 6:55 AM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yes, that is precisely what I've been trying to get across. It's not dismissing anyone's lived experienced of the current moment to put it in a broader perspective.
I'm glad we are in more agreement than I initially thought! One of the things I have learned on the Internet is that I need to say the things that I think are wholly obvious, like that I am not judging the experiences or suffering expressed by other people or that I think that stress is wholly understandable, before I can get to things that are more interesting to dig into. You are wholly correct that it is not inherently dismissive to lived experiences to put them into a broader context, but... it's also the sort of thing that people say right before they express disbelief at what other folks are going through (or what the data here suggests that other people are going through). I find that I have to start with that information, no matter how obvious I think that my intent to not dismiss people is, in part because I find that the people I interact with are much more likely to experience dismissiveness (even from inside their own heads!) than they are validation. It's also why I find I have to explicitly say other things I think are very obvious, like "the human species is not about to go extinct," rather than leaving those unsaid; it's way too easy for people who are in a reactive space (like myself, often) to hit a trigger and bounce off in an unintended direction of communication if I don't.
Anyway, thank you explicitly for checking in and seeking understanding instead of defaulting to a crabby one-liner. I know that's a lot more work, both cognitively and emotionally, but I am very glad you did that here.
Re: the motivations of the APA, eirias, I do generally think that this is a case where the problem isn't specific to the APA as an organization but more broadly about the way we think about and conceptualize broad scale public health. In general, the model pretty much since the inception of the study of behavioral health tends to assume a basically just, good world; there's a reason we speak in terms of "mental illness" rather than "mental injury," even though trauma is really probably better conceptualized as injury than as illness. There isn't really a behavioral equivalent of public health, even though behavioral states (and stress levels) unquestionably contribute to public health. In its own way, I kind of think this question is a symptom of the APA (and the field of psychiatry/psychology more generally) trying to reach out and clumsily start changing that framework, in concert with a lot of broader movements to look at trauma and stress more widely. That is actually something that is beneficial to their remit and their members (inasmuch as making stress a public problem creates a lot of opportunities for psychiatric professionals and researchers), while not necessarily providing any real incentive to lie or exaggerate the numbers.
I do think that we need to start talking collectively about collective behavioral health and reducing mental injuries from situational impacts on our mental health, and I certainly don't trust the APA to instantaneously get there; we have too much infrastructure that treats mental health as a purely individual thing, with individual responses and interventions, even when interventions should really be societal. I would love to see similar bodies representing, say, social workers as a lobbying body responding to something like this, because expanding and funding social work would be a more useful way to ameliorate this stuff for a lot of people than expanding and funding individual-based therapists (although probably that would also help).
Aside from the collective traumas of COVID and the whole great big political mishmash, I would also point at climate change as something that is already beginning to toss long-term stressors of exactly the kind that can create traumas at people. I think carlypennylane is right on the money about the structural and systematic issues that are stressing people out: they're frequent, they're unpredictable, they're unexpected and of unknown duration, and they are chronic. We have to start organizing to collectively figure these things out if we want to solve this ongoing problem, and that is so frustrating when we're already not doing so hot as a group.
Have we talked about fork theory here? I feel like fork theory is really, really relevant to the functioning levels of a lot of folks right now.
posted by sciatrix at 10:00 AM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm glad we are in more agreement than I initially thought! One of the things I have learned on the Internet is that I need to say the things that I think are wholly obvious, like that I am not judging the experiences or suffering expressed by other people or that I think that stress is wholly understandable, before I can get to things that are more interesting to dig into. You are wholly correct that it is not inherently dismissive to lived experiences to put them into a broader context, but... it's also the sort of thing that people say right before they express disbelief at what other folks are going through (or what the data here suggests that other people are going through). I find that I have to start with that information, no matter how obvious I think that my intent to not dismiss people is, in part because I find that the people I interact with are much more likely to experience dismissiveness (even from inside their own heads!) than they are validation. It's also why I find I have to explicitly say other things I think are very obvious, like "the human species is not about to go extinct," rather than leaving those unsaid; it's way too easy for people who are in a reactive space (like myself, often) to hit a trigger and bounce off in an unintended direction of communication if I don't.
Anyway, thank you explicitly for checking in and seeking understanding instead of defaulting to a crabby one-liner. I know that's a lot more work, both cognitively and emotionally, but I am very glad you did that here.
Re: the motivations of the APA, eirias, I do generally think that this is a case where the problem isn't specific to the APA as an organization but more broadly about the way we think about and conceptualize broad scale public health. In general, the model pretty much since the inception of the study of behavioral health tends to assume a basically just, good world; there's a reason we speak in terms of "mental illness" rather than "mental injury," even though trauma is really probably better conceptualized as injury than as illness. There isn't really a behavioral equivalent of public health, even though behavioral states (and stress levels) unquestionably contribute to public health. In its own way, I kind of think this question is a symptom of the APA (and the field of psychiatry/psychology more generally) trying to reach out and clumsily start changing that framework, in concert with a lot of broader movements to look at trauma and stress more widely. That is actually something that is beneficial to their remit and their members (inasmuch as making stress a public problem creates a lot of opportunities for psychiatric professionals and researchers), while not necessarily providing any real incentive to lie or exaggerate the numbers.
I do think that we need to start talking collectively about collective behavioral health and reducing mental injuries from situational impacts on our mental health, and I certainly don't trust the APA to instantaneously get there; we have too much infrastructure that treats mental health as a purely individual thing, with individual responses and interventions, even when interventions should really be societal. I would love to see similar bodies representing, say, social workers as a lobbying body responding to something like this, because expanding and funding social work would be a more useful way to ameliorate this stuff for a lot of people than expanding and funding individual-based therapists (although probably that would also help).
Aside from the collective traumas of COVID and the whole great big political mishmash, I would also point at climate change as something that is already beginning to toss long-term stressors of exactly the kind that can create traumas at people. I think carlypennylane is right on the money about the structural and systematic issues that are stressing people out: they're frequent, they're unpredictable, they're unexpected and of unknown duration, and they are chronic. We have to start organizing to collectively figure these things out if we want to solve this ongoing problem, and that is so frustrating when we're already not doing so hot as a group.
Have we talked about fork theory here? I feel like fork theory is really, really relevant to the functioning levels of a lot of folks right now.
posted by sciatrix at 10:00 AM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
"Mental injury" is a phrase that punches well above its weight, so to speak, and definitely deserves more widespread use.
yeah I bought Fukuyama’s line
I didn't. It was glib, blinkered, self-aggrandizing horseshit from the get-go, and having it wheeled out again as clickbait hasn't improved it any.
posted by flabdablet at 10:18 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
yeah I bought Fukuyama’s line
I didn't. It was glib, blinkered, self-aggrandizing horseshit from the get-go, and having it wheeled out again as clickbait hasn't improved it any.
posted by flabdablet at 10:18 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Recently some visiting relatives asked me "How are you doing". After this post/thread, I now suddenly realize what bugged me so much about it. They were trying to judge me: I felt subjectified in the sense of Sartre, or appellated in the sense of Althusser. What I wanted to reply was to tell them their question made no sense, especially given the current state of the world. But in the moment it was as if something compelled me to accept
politely the implied framing of their question and answer "I'm not doing great and here's what's been going on for me" as if that could be a satisfactory answer. Which is to say that intuitively I'm inclined to take a view that asking individuals to decide how they're doing is itself a form of neoliberalizing, responsibilizing discourse.
Telling us to judge ourselves is a deeply fraught and sensitive act. For example when Steven Pinker used academic concepts to suggest humanity is better off than ever, that really deserved strong criticism by the left. Or look at the backlash when Obama said to some of us, "It gets better". Sure, there's a scientific question of what the objective social trends are. But there's an authoritarian judgmentalism, even if just a streak of it, behind such approaches that when unscrutinized only preserves the power of those who wield such language.
posted by polymodus at 10:53 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
politely the implied framing of their question and answer "I'm not doing great and here's what's been going on for me" as if that could be a satisfactory answer. Which is to say that intuitively I'm inclined to take a view that asking individuals to decide how they're doing is itself a form of neoliberalizing, responsibilizing discourse.
Telling us to judge ourselves is a deeply fraught and sensitive act. For example when Steven Pinker used academic concepts to suggest humanity is better off than ever, that really deserved strong criticism by the left. Or look at the backlash when Obama said to some of us, "It gets better". Sure, there's a scientific question of what the objective social trends are. But there's an authoritarian judgmentalism, even if just a streak of it, behind such approaches that when unscrutinized only preserves the power of those who wield such language.
posted by polymodus at 10:53 AM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I resent "how are you?" because it frequently happens that the only honest answer would be "worse than five seconds before you triggered a self-assessment", forcing a choice between wasting dwindling spoons on the construction of a comforting lie vs wasting them on dealing with feeling boorish after not lying.
It's OK as part of the standard "how are you / fine thanks" superficial pleasantries protocol but as a genuine inquiry it's a shit question, and I much prefer the company of people who have the decency to keep it to themselves.
posted by flabdablet at 11:29 AM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's OK as part of the standard "how are you / fine thanks" superficial pleasantries protocol but as a genuine inquiry it's a shit question, and I much prefer the company of people who have the decency to keep it to themselves.
posted by flabdablet at 11:29 AM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
I like my dad's old standby:
"as well as can be expected."
It's positive without being remotely optimistic.
posted by philip-random at 1:58 PM on October 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
"as well as can be expected."
It's positive without being remotely optimistic.
posted by philip-random at 1:58 PM on October 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
“It's Ok to be Mentally Ill.” [Caution: Many triggers; See 0:23 for details]—The Leftist Cooks, 25 October 2022
posted by ob1quixote at 4:01 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 4:01 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I like my dad's old standby:
"as well as can be expected."
It's positive without being remotely optimistic.
My grandfather's gruff comeback was, "Compared to when?"
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:25 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
"as well as can be expected."
It's positive without being remotely optimistic.
My grandfather's gruff comeback was, "Compared to when?"
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:25 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
I've read through this whole thing and I still didn't find what I was hoping to see: what the fuck are people doing to survive and thrive in the face of this?
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 6:28 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 6:28 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Uh...I feel like the point of the thing is, we are barely surviving and not thriving whatsoever? So, nothing.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:25 AM on October 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:25 AM on October 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
(Now I feel guilty for saying "we." I'm surviving just fine, I suppose, and my strategy is "not giving a fuck". I don't follow news, I don't have a twitter, my phone sends me no notifications apart from texts and calls. I nuked my Nextdoor and those racist fucks will have to find their own lost cats now. I go places and do things in the real-life-meat-world and largely leave the internet alone. Anyone can ask me how I am, it's fine, that's a normal human question and I'll answer it: I'm okay.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:48 AM on October 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:48 AM on October 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well, I proposed (1) making changes to your media diet, and (2) trying to put the current moment into perspective against other historical moments where people thought all was lost.
Those are things I'm doing, and they have helped me.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:19 PM on October 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Those are things I'm doing, and they have helped me.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:19 PM on October 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
My suggestion would be to do what you can for change (and don't blame yourself that you are a human with both internal and external limitations), and then be as kind as you can to others (again, within your human limits). Finally, but that was implicit in the two other recommendations: be kind to you.
posted by mumimor at 1:21 PM on October 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 1:21 PM on October 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
« Older Yes, again! | He helped me see what I already knew Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I don't know much about the American Psychological Association but some of this is oddly de-politisizing or has a hidden ideology. Like, "inflation" is itself a biased term that assumes for example that corporations aren't just arbitrarily increasing prices to increase their profits.
But overall, yeah, people are having a really hard time right now indeed resonates.
posted by latkes at 7:21 PM on October 22, 2022 [124 favorites]