''Am I proud to have served my country? Hardly.

September 4, 2002 12:02 PM

''Am I proud to have served my country? Hardly. On September 11, I will awaken at dawn. I will retrieve all my variously colored medals from their little box in my dresser drawer. I'll put my robe on, go into my daughter's room and tell her I love her. I will unlock the deadbolt (my homeland security), and proceed out the front door, remove the lid to the trashcan, and throw my medals in the garbage, where they belong." (via yellowtimes.org)

Napoleon once said he could make men fight and die for brass, and bits of colored ribbon. There will be no more fitting memorial for September 11 than destroying the symbols of a way that contributed so mightily to the terrible events of that day....an American Waterloo.
posted by fold_and_mutilate (87 comments total)

Not to derail what is bound to be a reasoned and non-polarized discussion... but I really couldn't get past the poor, abused camel metaphor in the 3rd and 4th paragraphs:
Nearly four years I served, and in that time, questions were corralled in my head - tethered like camels, if you will, to a pole. But after I got out, those camels broke free...
Finally, the camels jumped out of the corral in my head and began spitting everywhere. They were angry.... September 11, for me, was the straw that broke one camel's back and sent the rest stampeding.

Won't someone please think of the camels!
posted by malphigian at 12:09 PM on September 4, 2002

Another f+m crap post. DOA.
posted by owillis at 12:12 PM on September 4, 2002

Get your own weblog, fuckwit.
posted by evanizer at 12:12 PM on September 4, 2002 [1 favorite]

There will be no more fitting memorial for September 11 than destroying the symbols of a way that contributed so mightily to the terrible events of that day...

You know what else "contributed mightily to the terrible events of that day"? Terrorists flying airplanes into skyscrapers. Just in case you forgot.
posted by pardonyou? at 12:13 PM on September 4, 2002

On Sept 11th, I plan to wake up, turn off all media sources, and entirely avoid any commemoration of the 911 attacks.

I am appalled by the holocaust-ification of the attacks and the ratings bonanza the media reaps from the same.

"You know its gonna get stranger, so lets get on with he show"
posted by BentPenguin at 12:17 PM on September 4, 2002

Get your own weblog, fuckwit.

Unless Matt kicks him out, this is his fucking blog, too -- there's 15k of us and it's not up to you to decide.
And, nice language, evan
posted by matteo at 12:17 PM on September 4, 2002

Just peeked at Evanizer's profile . . . that was his 666th comment!
posted by mikrophon at 12:21 PM on September 4, 2002

i hate all of you.
posted by Satapher at 12:21 PM on September 4, 2002

BentPenguin: On Sept 11th, I plan to wake up, turn off all media sources, and entirely avoid any commemoration of the 911 attacks.

Good luck! Even I can escape the commercial wrath here in Canada :)!
posted by freakystyley at 12:22 PM on September 4, 2002

Get your own weblog, fuckwit.

It's this kind of thoughtful commentary that makes me instantly regret clicking on the comments links.
posted by MegoSteve at 12:23 PM on September 4, 2002

Can't we all just get along?
posted by TBoneMcCool at 12:24 PM on September 4, 2002

BREAKING NEWS!
The world is not perfect..
posted by HTuttle at 12:27 PM on September 4, 2002

Can't we all just get along?

We tried that, it didn't work out though.
posted by UncleFes at 12:29 PM on September 4, 2002

No, it isn't his blog. It's a 'community' weblog, which in my book means taking a bit of responsibility for the well being of the community. His constant, acrid trolling, which he knows is going to anger, upset and divide the people here, is nothing more than lighting bags of dogshit ablaze on all our doorsteps and ringing the bell and snickering in the bushes as we all stomp it out.

And yes, I am the devil.
posted by evanizer at 12:31 PM on September 4, 2002

I have as little use for F&M's politics as anyone, but matteo is right: the point of MeFi is a to reflect the range of thought - or what passes for thought - out there.

Returning to the post, which I think is what we're supposed to be commenting on, it's useful to know that that there's still elements of the Left that haven't learned a thing in the past year, whose knee jerk self hatred won't allow them to distinguish between premeditated murder and justified measured response.
posted by mojohand at 12:31 PM on September 4, 2002

And taking a cue from Ms. Kyer, I'm going to get up on 9/11 and put my YellowTimes.org bookmark in the "trash."

Hey, we each protest in our own way, right?

*tips hat to the Devil*

Afternoon, milord.
posted by UncleFes at 12:32 PM on September 4, 2002

You know what else "contributed mightily to the terrible events of that day"? Terrorists flying airplanes into skyscrapers. Just in case you forgot.

I see it as "crazy vigilantes flying airplanes into skyscrapers to raise awareness". For what ugly truths have we learned since 9/11? U.S. Government's thoughts 'bout its people: "F*ck the people". U.S. Government's thoughts 'bout the UN: "F*ck the UN". U.S. Government's thoughts 'bout the rest of the rest of the world: "F*ck the rest of the world".
posted by freakystyley at 12:34 PM on September 4, 2002

Hey, that's our new tagline. Initial thread that was posted in was deleted.
posted by adampsyche at 12:35 PM on September 4, 2002

New tagline: Reflecting a range of what passes for thought out there.
posted by timeistight at 12:35 PM on September 4, 2002

Maybe the rest of the world should start taking responsibility for it's own actions and acting like grownups instead of blaming the big bad USA for the fact that it's not a shithole?

Just a thought.
posted by UncleFes at 12:36 PM on September 4, 2002

Malphigian, the same thing leapt out at me. I was already smiling when I got to the "camels tethered to a pole" thing, but when they started "spitting everywhere" I knew for sure that the author was a hilariously terrrible, terrible writer. Freelance indeed!
posted by Samsonov14 at 12:36 PM on September 4, 2002

I am appalled by the holocaust-ification of the attacks and the ratings bonanza the media reaps from the same.

Indeed. And let us note the crap comment from owillis. What a contribution.

And evanizer, if you could read--with the hate glasses off--what he's written on less hot button topics , you'd find it harder to bash him so instantly and thoughtlessly. And you're hardly one to talk about constant, acrid trolling.
posted by y2karl at 12:37 PM on September 4, 2002

Sorry, that last post just flew out of my mouth. Please ignore it.
posted by UncleFes at 12:37 PM on September 4, 2002

and let us note the crap comment from owillis. What a contribution.

int. Pot sits across from Kettle

Pot: You are BLACK!!
posted by owillis at 12:42 PM on September 4, 2002

Another f+m crap post. DOA.
posted by owillis
Get your own weblog, fuckwit.
posted by evanizer

Newbies have been hauled into meta talk for less lately.

I think the article is interesting. Like most people's opinion on ....... (whatever I have an opinion on)
posted by ginz at 12:44 PM on September 4, 2002

Wild reactionary comes out in favour of not killing innocent people. Wow, what a troll.
posted by transient at 12:44 PM on September 4, 2002

I came to this love fest after reading this. Agree or disagree with what he says there, it's more of a contribution than what you've made in your comments here. Hence my reaction.
posted by y2karl at 12:46 PM on September 4, 2002

There will be no more fitting memorial for September 11 than destroying the symbols of a way that contributed so mightily to the terrible events of that day

It would actually be more fitting if we could just ship you off to Afganistan with all of the women in your family. In a year, I'll send a camel over with a note tied to its testicles asking them what they think of you at that moment.
posted by eas98 at 12:47 PM on September 4, 2002

I see it as...

freakystyley, you have huge cojones. I salute you for speaking your mind. No, I'm not being sarcastic -- not one damn bit.
posted by Shane at 12:48 PM on September 4, 2002

new tagline: 15,000 camels tethered to a pole can't be wrong.
posted by elsar at 12:48 PM on September 4, 2002

When Vietnam Veterans were returning Silver Stars, Navy Crosses, and Distinguished Service Crosses*, that was a gesture of profound importance, and one to which people on every side of the debate had to pay serious attention.

However, the medal-thrower-outer in this post was a woman who did enlisted service in the Navy from 1992 to 1996. It's highly likely that all her decorations are in the genre of "thanks for not flunking out of your training" and "thanks for not getting arrested while on duty," and almost a certainty that she never heard a shot fired in danger, or was otherwise remotely in harms way at any time during her service. Her gesture thus has nothing, whatever, in that demonstrates courage, tenacity, self-sacrifice, or intelligence, or any other quality rendering her opinion on the present danger even slighty worthy of attention.

(*the Silver Star is the third-highest award for valor in combat, while the Navy Cross and the Distinguished Service Cross are the second-highest awards for valor in combat, awarded respectively by the Navy and Marines, and by the Army.)
posted by MattD at 12:50 PM on September 4, 2002

Why is being anti-war, something I guess the great majority of this planet is, suddenly inflammatory? Why is the interesting blog fold_and_mutilate linked not even read? Has pacifism - specially coming from someone who served his country (how many here have done so?) - now become terrorism?

Evan, I really hate your violent streak. In someone so intelligent, so capable or argument, so knowledgeable, it becomes quite disgusting.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 12:51 PM on September 4, 2002

fold_and_mutilate, I applaud your bravery in posting this. But I'm afraid this comment thread is going nowhere.

However, now that this thread has seemingly created an excuse to strip away all civility from some of the post-ers here, we are seeing some surprising and very telling things underneath.
posted by Shane at 12:56 PM on September 4, 2002

I have a large number of verterans in my family who are against the potential war against Iraq (which is truly not over with from last time). In fact most of them, including myself, believed that the reasons behind the events last decade in Iraq have never been fully disclosed by the various parties involved. Some of us distrust anything on the topic broached by this administration and are quite vocal in this area.

There seem to be other voices which feel that way.

I'm not actually interested in arguing about this in this space. Perhaps those of us in this "community" who disagree should just keep our mouths shut? Or perhaps a reasoned approach to the whole concept of engaging in a war should be discussed openly from many perspectives, including those who would throw their medals in the trash, using reason and rhetoric rather than curse words and intimidation?
posted by filchyboy at 12:56 PM on September 4, 2002

MattD: I don't agree. She has her pride, perhaps principles, I don't know, but for an individual those can be stronger motives.
posted by ginz at 12:57 PM on September 4, 2002

Why is being anti-war, something I guess the great majority of this planet is

Which planet you talking about? I thought this was Earth. Humans are angry animals. Until another species or an asteroid wipes us out, we will always be fighting and having wars. Sorry to burst some bubbles...
posted by stifford at 12:58 PM on September 4, 2002

Hoo-boy, one week and counting...at this rate next week should be quite interesting.
posted by gottabefunky at 1:00 PM on September 4, 2002

Shane: freakystyley, you have huge cojones. I salute you for speaking your mind. No, I'm not being sarcastic -- not one damn bit.

Thanks... thank God for context :).
posted by freakystyley at 1:01 PM on September 4, 2002

I came to this love fest after reading this. Agree or disagree with what he says there, it's more of a contribution than what you've made in your comments here.

fold and mutilate gets the reaction here that he does because he has a pattern of rubbing people the wrong way. you couldn't really complain about this thread alone. people resent f+m for his agenda -- considering his liberal agenda, and the notion that metafilter is held "liberal" by some, i would say that people simply resent any agenda to which they are subjected. hence the cries that fold get his own weblog; hence the cries that sdb get his own weblog; and so forth. (in politics, sdb and f+m are quite different, but in method i don't think they seem very.)
posted by moz at 1:02 PM on September 4, 2002

That was for you oliver, and evanizer as well. It's not that I'm signing off on what fold_and_mutilate has posted here--I hadn't even clicked on the link--I clicked on the comments first. Instant ugliness awaited--it's just as ginz said: Newbies have been hauled into meta talk for less lately. You both should know better.
posted by y2karl at 1:02 PM on September 4, 2002

She should throw them in the recycling bin instead.
posted by quercus at 1:03 PM on September 4, 2002

stifford: can we at least assume that some substantive percentage of humans is attempting to overcome our baser instincts and not use them as mechanism to rationalize away patriotic and arguably imperialistic violence?
posted by shagoth at 1:03 PM on September 4, 2002

Nothing especially wrong with throwing out her medals, or doing so as a protest against U.S. foreign policy. I rather agree, in fact. She's got a thing for overblown rhetoric and breathless what-was-she-thinking statements like Once I stopped believing everything my parents, teachers, shipmates, and TV were telling me, my eyes and ears quickly recognized the twisting of words into lies, sure, but her heart's in more or less the right place.

But.

What the hell's it got to do with September 11?

Plus, c'mon, find someone who can write. She sounds like a freshman comp student. Who's failing.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 1:05 PM on September 4, 2002

While I don't oppose war I have a problem with going to war with someone elses interests in mind. Now, that does not include humanitarian mission which I see as extremely helpful but as far a human life where does the line in war cross were the benefits to humanitarian aid fall behind casualty of war.

With our situation in Iraq. If you can prove to me and the rest of the world (with irrefutable proof) that Iraq has positioned itself to use weapons of mass destruction then the choice would seem to favor war. BUT at present time and with the history of the current administration it would seem that this pending war does nothing but provide political leverage and monetary gain for industry. This does not deserve lives. $0.02
posted by Dr_Octavius at 1:07 PM on September 4, 2002

Moz: duly noted.
posted by y2karl at 1:07 PM on September 4, 2002

There's really no way to respond constructively to such a poorly reasoned, poorly written piece of invective as Kyer's essay. The author simply pushes a bunch of buttons, a la Coulter, to get her intended audience all frothy. There are certainly issues to be discussed, but I don't think essays like this one contribute.

Humans are angry animals. Until another species or an asteroid wipes us out, we will always be fighting and having wars. Sorry to burst some bubbles...

It's amusing when people try to pass lazy resignation off as worldy wisdom.
posted by Dr. Boom at 1:08 PM on September 4, 2002

stifford: can we at least assume that some substantive percentage of humans is attempting to overcome our baser instincts and not use them as mechanism to rationalize away patriotic and arguably imperialistic violence?

Now Shagoth, you know what happens when you assume...
posted by stifford at 1:08 PM on September 4, 2002

A little MetaTalk might help; I hope.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:09 PM on September 4, 2002

I thought Kyer had some interesting things to say, though she may not be a terribly gifted writer. Mainly what she seemed to be saying was not to automatically trust your government, and instead to look at the real motives behind their actions. This is indeed very much in line with my feeling about the US Government.

I am happy to see a dissenting voice, calling upon the public to question everything, no matter how sacred it may seem.

I think many folks should wait a minute or two before hitting the post button in anger. And thanks for the post, f&m.
posted by Kafkaesque at 1:11 PM on September 4, 2002

I see it as "crazy vigilantes flying airplanes into skyscrapers to raise awareness".

I wonder how they would see it. Or how their sons, daughters, wives, and husbands see it. Maybe they would just happy knowing they were able to play such an important role in "raising awareness."
posted by pardonyou? at 1:11 PM on September 4, 2002

Miguel, is "violent" the word you really wanted to use in describing Evan's posts in this thread? I think words such as that get thrown out a little too carelessly. I agree with your premise, but perhaps a little caution here in a sensitive discussion would go a long way.
posted by PrinceValium at 1:14 PM on September 4, 2002

throw my medals in the garbage

Dude! What a moron! Doesn't he know how much he could get for those on ebay???
posted by kindall at 1:19 PM on September 4, 2002

While these comments have been crap discussion with a few exceptions, they have provided me with my biggest laughs of the day. Sometimes you just post a conversational reaction without thinking. I do it all the time.

MattD- Nice comments.
posted by McBain at 1:23 PM on September 4, 2002

pardonyou?: I wonder how they would see it. Or how their sons, daughters, wives, and husbands see it. Maybe they would just happy knowing they were able to play such an important role in "raising awareness."

He he... naturally, opinions are relative, although I won't deny the fact 9/11 was certainly an atrocity. In retrospect, I'm not sure how those families will see it after their inability to sue the US government or the Saudis.
posted by freakystyley at 1:26 PM on September 4, 2002

thank you, kindall! now that's seeing past the politics of the issue.

On a slight tangent, isn't posting a link to a yellowtimes article kind of the "lefty" equivalent to links from a Newsmax, or a WorldNetDaily? Not the most unbiased website around, imo (although it is only an opinion piece...).
posted by stifford at 1:27 PM on September 4, 2002

I love you guys! Every time I calm down, all I have to do is come over here, and wait for one of our many Trolls to piss every one off...
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 1:34 PM on September 4, 2002

ya, evan, how dare you. foldy is the best craftsmen of controversy. The Napoleon quote is gold. A man who rode to power by whoring the early ideals of the French Revolution, that being people will die for mere ideas. An American Waterloo? sounds like foldy thinks BIG SAM is gonna get sucker punched at the Tigris.

the woman in question...she has the right and we have the right to stone wall her and give our praise to those whom deserve it. What of the Bonus marchers? Union troops in Detroit and N.Y. and other cities whom put down deadly riots....draft riots. Immigrants for the most part burned down the black section of Detroit, they did so because they thought they would go die so the blacks could take their jobs. (i think they were pissed cause they did not have the 300$ fee to pay other to go and fought) Let this woman whom most likely never saw action burn her stuff. Disgruntled solders are part of our country and historically, nothing is worse then a group of disgruntled solders ready take take up arms against their own country. Besides commies were the violent ones in the bonus army. It is a bad deal solders get, 3 of my best friends have more bronze between them then i care to state. two were wounded and saw comrades die. I respect them even if they criticize our country. IT IS THEIR RIGHT, as with this woman. I read the link M, and find her statements nothing new from allot of solders.
as a side meme, sept.13 last year my step father was in Paris, he went to invallides (sic sp) and champ de Mars. So here is an american who is shaped like a pear outside the Invallides, a couple of Gendarmes were eyeing him very closely. He asked the guard if any solders were in the hospital...of course not. Step dad just wanted to thank the solders whom fought in Indochine. then he walked away. step dad is not profound, being a APC sarge in central highlands 1967 but i saw a weird grudging sense of comradeship in his actions as he thought vietnam was "a Fucking waste" But he served, did his duty. alot of people conveyed sympathy to him and my mom and sept. 11 (they were in Monaco) and said "thank you, but we can take it."

Has pacifism - specially coming from someone who served his country (how many here have done so?) - now become terrorism i hope not miguel, as my ancestors were quakers and helped free blacks before that ape lincoln did, and they did it by risking their lives, not signing a piece of paper....that is a little unfair to lincoln but still...
posted by clavdivs at 1:40 PM on September 4, 2002

"I am happy to see a dissenting voice, calling upon the public to question everything, no matter how sacred it may seem"
boy what a revelation, that plato guy was all wrong....someone telling us to exam life never occurred to me.
posted by clavdivs at 1:47 PM on September 4, 2002

I wonder what angry camel tastes like.
posted by poopy at 1:47 PM on September 4, 2002

you know, that stuff about the camels reminded me of the part in Storytelling, when Marcus is reading his "Rawness of Truth" story to the class...
posted by stifford at 1:51 PM on September 4, 2002

How about aggressive then, Prince? or...

Intimidatory? Bullying? Unsophisticated? Compensatory, perhaps? Displaced? Inappropriate? Transferred?

So, if 'you' are susceptible to caving in when attacked, then maybe 'you' attack in order to make the opposition cave in. (That may work with the uneducated or isolated - it should not be allowed to work here). Which applies as much to a terrorist, a "president", or a MeFite.

Methinks, the lady doth protest too much.
posted by dash_slot- at 1:55 PM on September 4, 2002

Her choice. Alas, I served in the military for two hitches and do not seem to have the many medals she has. Whatever I had seemed to have got lost as not being overly important, so I don't plan any symbolic act for Sept 11. I wonder, though, how many people killed on that day were also vets, many of whom I suspect having served in combat. Was the Gulf War wrong? If so, please tell me why. Was Nam wrong? Most likely. Korea? No! they were invaded and now they have a flourishing democracy, unlie the invaders from the North.
I have to admit that once I saw Yellow Press I was about to turn away but I was caught up with the many comments and thus read what I take to be a not vlery "tribute" to an attack upon America by a bunch of loonies that took the lives of some 3000 innocents. They don't have the opportunity for symbolic gestures.
posted by Postroad at 1:57 PM on September 4, 2002

clav, I would put it to you that many indeed do not question everything. Also, many wouldn't know who Plato even was.

I'm not saying that's a revolutionary idea, just one that deserves repeating every now and then.

Am I interpreting your rather snide comment correctly?
posted by Kafkaesque at 1:58 PM on September 4, 2002

*grabs folding chair from crowd*
posted by Kafkaesque at 1:58 PM on September 4, 2002

Am I interpreting your rather snide comment correctly?

Easier said than done!
posted by y2karl at 2:05 PM on September 4, 2002

With all due respect Miguel, I wouldn't call Evan's anger at foldy a "violent streak." I'd hardly presume to speak for him, but I'd venture his response, like mine initially, comes from his distaste at at watching someone, no matter what their persuasion, use the events of that horrible day to further their own agenda.

As far as any commemoration goes, I'd say that some observation of the events of that day are in order. No matter how much we all try to turn that day into a political abstraction, real people died that day in ways so horrible that no amount of politcking and rationalization can make OK or justifiable.

Besides, I imagine much of the commemoration will focus upon the heroism of the police, firefighters and EMT's who I don't think "contributed so mightily to the terrible events of that day." My best freinds EMT unit lost 3 members on 9/11 who were doing nothing more than trying to save lives. So yes I do believe those deaths should be remembered

As far as foldy's post goes, it's a cliche but it's true. He can say whatever he wants and I can say I think he's fulla shit. And that's how it should be, freedom of speech, pure and simple.
posted by jonmc at 2:17 PM on September 4, 2002

Patriot's Day - "Today only a few states recognize the holiday; however, its celebrations are known by many. Besides several reenactments of the famous midnight ride, there are other festivities including professional baseball games and the running of the Boston Marathon."
posted by eddydamascene at 2:19 PM on September 4, 2002

...and fold_and_mutilate just sat back and enjoyed what he had created: a complete and total barf-o-rama.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:22 PM on September 4, 2002

Interesting that no-one has refuted the "Gulf war was part of the cause of 9/11" argument (other than with abuse). Personally, I think that the film "Under Siege" has it about right - a previously tame psychopath (Bid Laden / Tommy Lee Jones) gets pissed off when Uncle Sam dumps him and tries to give the US a bloody nose.

Everyone does realise that we're allowed to have a rational discussion about an emotive subject, don't they?
posted by daveg at 2:25 PM on September 4, 2002

*barfs in his hat*
posted by jonmc at 2:26 PM on September 4, 2002

s/Bid/Bin/

Oops!
posted by daveg at 2:29 PM on September 4, 2002

Personally, I think that the film "Under Siege" has it about right

I'm going to have to call Shenanigans for making reference to a Steven Seagal movie... ; )
posted by stifford at 2:29 PM on September 4, 2002

"Interesting that no-one has refuted the "Gulf war was part of the cause of 9/11" argument"

OK, let me get the semantics out of the way first. The cause of 9/11 was the passing of midnight on 9/10.

The cause of the attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001 can only be determined by asking the person(s) responsible, and they're not exactly lining up to do interviews with CNN.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:39 PM on September 4, 2002

"The cause of 9/11 was the passing of midnight on 9/10." - OK, you win ;<)

I agree that the definitive answer could only be found by talking to those involved, but, in order to avoid having history repeat itself, it might be useful to try and work out the likely cause (not that I'm suggesting that this is necessarily the right forum to solve the world's problems!).
posted by daveg at 2:46 PM on September 4, 2002

tommy lee jones? Ya, Willis shoulda capped the sheik....or did he? yes K abit snide but not all towards you directly. But your right ,people question little. i gave this woman some credit (it hurt though) but put your statement with hers and...ok so im a bitter 35 year old...that 'someone' i stated was her as i feel she is conveying a idea to *us* without the proper criteria. Like, she questions things, don't like it, therefore she will burn my medals. since you did not elaborate on the issue (simply praised her for one who raises questions) i was a bit snide because i do not think a solder, who burns her medals with little explanation other then a few basic points of contention, is that creditable when it comes to questioning her country. What is her reasons? anything personal, her CO tried to rape her, she got shafted on disability, JAG wont leave her alone. But i failed to see the message and railed on the messenger. The chair?...towards the back the leg sir, it hurts less.
posted by clavdivs at 2:47 PM on September 4, 2002

whoops confused The denzel flick with the seagal flick.
(what am i saying, you win Karl, I'll hit The MLA tomorrow right after the afternoon nap.
posted by clavdivs at 2:49 PM on September 4, 2002

I am happy to see a dissenting voice, calling upon the public to question everything, no matter how sacred it may seem.--Kafkaesque

Ditto. Even though the author is not the best of writers...cause really, the camel thing...that's just funny, but everyone is entitled to an opinion...even when that opinion runs counter to such brilliant arguments as "fuckwit" and the like.

I have a large number of veterans in my family who are against the potential war against Iraq... - filchyboy

Agreed. My family has been sending men to war for this country since the Revolution...and none of them are behind the Iraq thing.

...like mine initially, comes from his distaste at at watching someone, no matter what their persuasion, use the events of that horrible day to further their own agenda. - by jonmc

However, the most bile that we see getting spit up around here seems to be reserved for the leftists. Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush and company have *all* used 911 for their own agenda. Goodness, Bush released propaganda materials with photos from the day to raise money for Republican candidates. So, I'm all for a moratorium on people, politicians and governments using 911 as a big ol distraction point while they dismantle civil liberties and ramp up the war machine.

But to critique those that do "use the events" is to be accused of "letting the terrorists win". So, considering how powerless the leftists really are...in that they don't control the military, the executive branch, the legislative branch or the judicial branch...and in fact are fairly lonely voices in the wind...to accuse them of using 911 to further an agenda seems a bit disingenuous...ya know?

I wonder what angry camel tastes like. --by poopy

Like everything else does...tastes like chicken. ;)
posted by dejah420 at 2:53 PM on September 4, 2002

Oh, come on, for all we know, she might have been a Yeoman. Medals? Sure I got a National Defense Metal (due to new issue. Despite what she says, they concluded giving NDMs out in I think 94) and I can get Expert Pistol and Rifle if I was any good with hand held weapons. And just for not going to mast (non-judicial punishment) I get a Good Conduct award, ect. There are a lot of metals that don't mean as much as others. Anyone who's been in the military for at least 4 years, like her, can get a few.

Once I stopped believing everything my parents, teachers, shipmates, and TV were telling me

Well, as a shipmate, I call bull. This is ridiculous. Sailors (and soldiers, and marines, and uh, airmen (?)) are people too. Do people think this is amazing because she served and now is anti-war? Its a workplace; everyone does it for different reasons. This isn't revolutionary, this isn't wisdom, it's simply her thoughts. We all have them.

Also, many wouldn't know who Plato even was.

Hey, us metafilterers are not that smart. Do you think that the everyday person doesn't ever think critically? Do you think that their lives are so uncomplicated and blind that they amount to sheep? We seriously need to grow up and recognize that the very people that we try to stand up for is us. They're just like us. Some of them are rash (like us) and some of them believe in causes (like us) and some of them are cynical (like us).

And why everyone's hate of Govn't? You do realize that the govn't is made out of people, people maybe even like you or me? Even me, I guess that I'm just a part of the govn't (the enforcing part, or, er more of the power plant operator to the enforcing part). Am I evil by association?
posted by Lord Chancellor at 3:01 PM on September 4, 2002

Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush and company have *all* used 911 for their own agenda.

fwiw, it's not just the US where this is happening, as the economist points out (w/ helpful infographic :) it's everywhere!

If all this reads like a tale of woe, no wonder: that is what it is. The world is undoubtedly less free than it was on September 10th last year. Most of the blame for this lies squarely with al-Qaeda. Many governments, it is true, have simply seized the opportunity to pass restrictive measures that they have long coveted. Others, less malign, have undoubtedly been too ready to restrict liberty in the name of an effective campaign against terror: they have reckoned, probably correctly, that the voters would be less forgiving of another terrorist attack made possible by excessive freedom than of the various new restrictions they have imposed. Security is uppermost in the minds of citizens these days, and the true price of an erosion of freedom becomes apparent only over time, which is to say after the next election.

But spare some sympathy, if you can, for the politicians. Some values—good values—are to some degree always at odds with each other, which means that governments must try to balance them. Freedom and security are two such values, even if the trade-off between them is not as simple as politicians often try to claim: a loss of freedom does not necessarily bring a commensurate gain in security.

Do not despair. Though restrictions, once in place, are always difficult to dislodge, and governments are usually loth to give power back to the people from whom they have taken it, freedoms lost can nonetheless be regained. If they are not, however, Mr Bush's fine words last September will have simply served to widen for ever the crack in the Liberty Bell.

PEACE OUT HOMIES! it's been real, keke :)
posted by kliuless at 4:52 PM on September 4, 2002

Has pacifism - specially coming from someone who served his country (how many here have done so?)

Mig: I think a *pacifist soldier* is somehow a non sequitur.
If I'm not mistaken, he is a she. And I wonder why you think that having been in the armed forces voluntarily for money is serving the country any more than, say, being a school teacher? Do you think that having been trained by the military, rather than in medicine, engineering, or law gives greater weight to a person's opinion?
posted by semmi at 5:21 PM on September 4, 2002

Also, many wouldn't know who Plato even was.

Of course I do. Mickey's dog, right?

Like everything else does...tastes like chicken. ;)

Please dejah, do not eat any more camels. They're not good for you especially during a pregnancy. Please?
posted by matteo at 5:24 PM on September 4, 2002

Also, many wouldn't know who Plato even was.

Of course I do. Mickey's dog, right?

No, he's the smart dude from Beetle Bailey, man, Sheesh!
posted by jonmc at 5:33 PM on September 4, 2002

And I wonder why you think that having been in the armed forces voluntarily for money is serving the country any more than, say, being a school teacher? Do you think that having been trained by the military, rather than in medicine, engineering, or law gives greater weight to a person's opinion?


Of course not. We value all of our members of society who's goal is to serve. We honor soldier's in a special way, only because they have agreed to put their life in the balance. And now a days, a person's life is pretty expensive; people don't usually join professions that could get them killed easily. But the same is true why we honor policemen, firemen, and others that put themselves in physical danger.

Someone growing up to be a teacher has to make quite a few sacrifices. So do I, who's current path is that of a U.S. Sailor. I certainly have an easier time getting through school and I have an employer who won't go bankrupt or can really fire me. But I do lack some of the freedom most members of society have. As I can't get fired, I also can't quit. Not to say that I'm not fat, dumb, and happy teaching nuclear power operations, but, hey, in the end we honor sacrifice for the greater good. Military just very visual in its service.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 6:01 PM on September 4, 2002

Ignoring what's just been said here (sorry), I know what's rubbing me the wrong way about US wars.

Bush Jr. just (in not as many words) called Canada a pussy for not being a big backer in his various wars.

Well, SOOORRRY.

Let's count 'em up:

Attacks against Canada in my lifetime: ZERO.
Attacks against the US in my lifetime: I'm out of fingers.
Country people think I'm from when I don't fly my flag in non-American countries: USA.
Attitude change when I show them I'm Canadian: 180 degrees.

Seriously. The truth is a policy of non-violence unless provoked has benefitted our country in more ways than I can imagine. Number one being an enjoyable trip to Cuba. Speaking of which...

I implore the US to give it a try. Stop beating up on Cuba (economically) for things that happened before you graduated highschool, Bush Jr. Stop being a hypocrite by blaming it on communism while your government backhands deals with comminust China.

And, at the same time as you do that, review why you attacked Iraq. Review how many countries they've tried to take over since. Tell me, are they advancing on Kuwait again? How many bombs have they dropped on Iran lately?

Just stop it with the guns. You won't need them once you make your peace with these countries you've hated for so long. And if you, in earnest, can't, then, and only then, do you (in my mind) have the right to shoot.

The Taliban and other ultra-religous groups are an exception, though, I'll give you that. But I still doubt all that bombing has actually commited the mass genocide you really wanted. And, like a wounded animal, they're just going to hate you more now, and there's no chance you'll be able to arrest them next time (I think you've given them far more than enough experience with American war tactics for a lifetime).

Well, we'll just have to see what happens. For everyone's sake, I hope September 11th is peaceful. But I have a bad feeling it might not be.
posted by shepd at 10:01 PM on September 4, 2002

took the lives of some 3000 innocents. They don't have the opportunity for symbolic gestures.

if we're going to get all histrionic, neither do those people of Afghanistan who were killed by 9/11 as surely as any Trade Center or Pentagon worker.

The problem with yanking the heartstrings instead of constructing a logically coherent argument is that heartstring-yanking can generally be employed in the service of any possible position on any given issue.

Also: count me among those who really don't care about the epic battle between fold_and_mutilate and his detractors and would vastly prefer that those pissing contests be kept off the blue.
posted by Sapphireblue at 6:08 AM on September 5, 2002

Blah, blah, blah, this is not newsworthy. Hey everyone, I am going to write an article about how I feel then have it posted here to see what you think. Come on, post something thought provoking, she didn't even develop any sort of decent argument to why she feels the was she does, which, btw, I am confused as to what she feels. This is a crap post.
posted by Slash_fan at 7:40 AM on September 5, 2002

Thanks for your comments.

I too happen to still have the little bit of ribbon that was my own National Defense Service medal. I too once wore a uniform, carried a rifle, and learned how to kill. In my naivety...in unmindful stupidity.... I too once contributed to a more violent world.

Violence never heals.

It is almost the morning of September 11, 2002. You'll find my own brass and bits of ribbon laying in the trash and memories of the day
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 11:12 PM on September 10, 2002