You've Been Played
November 4, 2022 5:50 AM Subscribe
Every week brings word of another company bringing gamification to the workplace, whether it’s Amazon workers in India competing to deliver packages in order to score “runs” in a thirty-day, cricket-themed Delivery Premier League for rewards like smartphones and motorbikes, or United Airlines’ short-lived experiment to help staff “build excitement and a sense of accomplishment” by swapping their bonus with a lottery — available only for those with perfect attendance records, of course. In You've Been Played: How Corporations, Governments, and Schools Use Games to Control Us All, MetaFilter's own Adrian Hon examines how "points, badges, and leaderboards are creeping into every aspect of modern life as tools for profit and coercion."
This book is a critique of gamification by an actual game designer, games journalist, and former neuroscientist that "goes far beyond the usual suspects like Fitbit and Duolingo to look at the historical roots of gamification. Foucault, Lewis Mumford, Skinner, medieval indulgences, Taylorism, ARGs," and more are covered by Hon, who notes that his new book "exists partly due to my 2020 essay, What ARGs Can Teach Us About QAnon, and the positive response it got from Metafilter."
Are You Being Tricked into Working Harder? (The Indicator from Planet Money/NPR) offers a 9-minute audio overview on workplace gamification.
Excerpt 1: Why gamifying the workplace can be a nightmare for workers (Big Think)
Excerpt 2: How achievements took over the video game industry (Fast Company)
Short review in The Economist (November 3; paywalled without registration or subscription).
From an original essay in Noema magazine, How Game Design Principles Can Enhance Democracy. ("Our democracies are already gamified. Our goal should be to do it better.") In my new book, “You’ve Been Played,” I argue that governments must regulate gamification so that it respects workers’ privacy and dignity. Regulators must also ensure that gamified finance apps and video games don’t manipulate users into losing more money than they can afford. Crucially, I believe any gamification intended for schools and colleges must be researched and debated openly before deployment.
But I also believe gamification can strengthen democracies, by designing democratic participation to be accessible and to build consensus. The same game design ideas that have made video games the 21st century’s dominant form of entertainment — adaptive difficulty, responsive interfaces, progress indicators and multiplayer systems that encourage co-operative behaviour — can be harnessed in the service of democracies and civil society.
See Hon's MetaFilter Project post, upon which this FPP is based, for more links and information.
This book is a critique of gamification by an actual game designer, games journalist, and former neuroscientist that "goes far beyond the usual suspects like Fitbit and Duolingo to look at the historical roots of gamification. Foucault, Lewis Mumford, Skinner, medieval indulgences, Taylorism, ARGs," and more are covered by Hon, who notes that his new book "exists partly due to my 2020 essay, What ARGs Can Teach Us About QAnon, and the positive response it got from Metafilter."
Are You Being Tricked into Working Harder? (The Indicator from Planet Money/NPR) offers a 9-minute audio overview on workplace gamification.
Excerpt 1: Why gamifying the workplace can be a nightmare for workers (Big Think)
Excerpt 2: How achievements took over the video game industry (Fast Company)
Short review in The Economist (November 3; paywalled without registration or subscription).
From an original essay in Noema magazine, How Game Design Principles Can Enhance Democracy. ("Our democracies are already gamified. Our goal should be to do it better.") In my new book, “You’ve Been Played,” I argue that governments must regulate gamification so that it respects workers’ privacy and dignity. Regulators must also ensure that gamified finance apps and video games don’t manipulate users into losing more money than they can afford. Crucially, I believe any gamification intended for schools and colleges must be researched and debated openly before deployment.
But I also believe gamification can strengthen democracies, by designing democratic participation to be accessible and to build consensus. The same game design ideas that have made video games the 21st century’s dominant form of entertainment — adaptive difficulty, responsive interfaces, progress indicators and multiplayer systems that encourage co-operative behaviour — can be harnessed in the service of democracies and civil society.
See Hon's MetaFilter Project post, upon which this FPP is based, for more links and information.
Ima give this post a favorite!
posted by chavenet at 5:52 AM on November 4, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 5:52 AM on November 4, 2022 [26 favorites]
The Simpsons did an episode about this a few years ago. Springfield comes into possession of a large amount of money and must decide how to spend it. Instead of building a monorail this time, they decide to build a future-oriented STEM school to replace Springfield Elementary so they can better prepare their children for the jobs of tomorrow.
At the new STEM school, run by CEO Zane Furlong, Bart enjoys his new video game-infused education, which allows him to collect badges and skins for his profile, while Lisa is accepted into a gifted class which teaches her about science, coding, math and neural networks. She also learns the school is run by an algorithm to determine the best education for the kids. At a career day meeting at the school, Homer speaks about his job at safety inspector at the nuclear power plant. However, Furlong disparages this as one of several jobs that will be rendered obsolete within a few months, being taken over by automated machines. At the plant, his fears seem confirmed when an automated soda machine which efficiently mixes drinks and flavors is installed in the break room. Homer, seeking to prove that humans can mix drinks better than machines, engages in a stand-off with the soda machine, constantly mixing drinks for hours for the other employees until he collapses from exhaustion and drinking too much soda. Recovering from the fall, Homer feels relief that his job will not be taken over by robots for the moment, unaware that Mr. Burns is beginning a trial run with automated machines in the workplace.posted by Servo5678 at 6:08 AM on November 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
Meanwhile, Lisa discovers that the kids outside of her gifted class are only being trained to do menial jobs in the present day. She attempts to warn the other kids, but Bart convinces them to embrace their education and career prospects. Frustrated at this, Lisa tries to rewrite the algorithm to ensure the other kids have real STEM education, but Bart stops her. They fight until Furlong stops them, and tries to use the algorithm to determine the jobs of the future. To the three's horror, the algorithm can only find one job - caring for senior citizens (with STEM actually standing for Sponge-bathing Toileting Elderly Massage). Bart and Lisa warn the kids through the video PA system and the horrified students proceed to negatively rate the algorithm, causing the server to explode and destroy the school. As Bart and Lisa mope over their worthless future, Homer comforts a saddened Marge, assuring her she will find another way to provide education to the town.
In the tag scene, Furlong, now working as a food delivery driver, visits the Simpsons, delivering hot wings and celery sticks for Homer. When Bart and Lisa ask him what the jobs in the future will be now that the STEM school has been destroyed, he responds that technology is changing and could bring about positive prospects. However, in a vision of the future, sentient soda machines have taken over the planet, forcing residents like adult Bart and Lisa to work as slave bartenders while others like Carl fly around space in luxury cruisers.
How gamification saved Constantinople in 447CE
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:12 AM on November 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:12 AM on November 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
Any process that puts a worker in competition with another worker is a tool of oppression.
posted by mhoye at 6:37 AM on November 4, 2022 [53 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 6:37 AM on November 4, 2022 [53 favorites]
Surely, it's Istanbul, not Constantinople?
And Duolingo has pissed me off with its gamification. Motivating people to keep up their language practice is one thing, but it's long since slid into trying to coax people to grind levels in order to stay atop the leaderboards. That's not a real great way to get grammar and vocabulary to stick.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:41 AM on November 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
And Duolingo has pissed me off with its gamification. Motivating people to keep up their language practice is one thing, but it's long since slid into trying to coax people to grind levels in order to stay atop the leaderboards. That's not a real great way to get grammar and vocabulary to stick.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:41 AM on November 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
If you enjoyed this comment, remember to like, follow and obey.
posted by SPrintF at 6:47 AM on November 4, 2022 [46 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 6:47 AM on November 4, 2022 [46 favorites]
I seem to remember having taco night with some way smarter-than-me folks in Seattle in about 2005 or so.
One of them was working at UW doing research trying to find a more exact way of discovering the moment individuals go from feeling fun to feeling work with any task.
Looks like someone's postdoc research got traction.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 6:48 AM on November 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
One of them was working at UW doing research trying to find a more exact way of discovering the moment individuals go from feeling fun to feeling work with any task.
Looks like someone's postdoc research got traction.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 6:48 AM on November 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
My kid, in first grade, just turned in a bunch of her points (earned how??? school is kind of a black box) for an extra recess period with the athletes from our local college. She was so excited, and all I could think of was that it's already started for her.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 6:55 AM on November 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Lawn Beaver at 6:55 AM on November 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
That is a great link, 1970s Antihero! Now, if only we can come up with something to help save MetaFilter, gamified or not!
posted by Bella Donna at 7:09 AM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 7:09 AM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Didn't Adrian do a series of Tweets recently "recommending" (with what seemed like a heavy dose of sarcasm) these techniques to Elon Musk for Twitter, and Musk said something like, "Good ideas here"?
posted by clawsoon at 7:15 AM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 7:15 AM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Something like that. A link is posted in one of the Twitter threads. Sorry that I don't have time to dig it up now.
posted by Bella Donna at 7:30 AM on November 4, 2022
posted by Bella Donna at 7:30 AM on November 4, 2022
My spouse's higher education employer, in a HCOL area, recently found the limits of this. Historically, they've not given raises appropriate to the rapidly spiraling cost of living.
More recently, the employer instituted a points system, where earned points could be used to give gifts to oneself and others: pens, swag bags, branded bits and bobs. In official communications, management thought it was a great idea.
The next all-hands meeting featured people standing up and yelling "Where's the money? We have people on food and rent assistance! Where's the new hires we were promised? Stop wasting our time with bullshit, and pay us!" Turnover has been vicious. New hiring has slowed to a crawl, since McDonalds now pays more for entry level positions.
I'm hoping for a really ugly union fight.
posted by SunSnork at 7:31 AM on November 4, 2022 [57 favorites]
More recently, the employer instituted a points system, where earned points could be used to give gifts to oneself and others: pens, swag bags, branded bits and bobs. In official communications, management thought it was a great idea.
The next all-hands meeting featured people standing up and yelling "Where's the money? We have people on food and rent assistance! Where's the new hires we were promised? Stop wasting our time with bullshit, and pay us!" Turnover has been vicious. New hiring has slowed to a crawl, since McDonalds now pays more for entry level positions.
I'm hoping for a really ugly union fight.
posted by SunSnork at 7:31 AM on November 4, 2022 [57 favorites]
I mean... demerits, reward points you could spend at the school store, and gold stars have been in education forever.
But the video game elements are creeping in. For instance I use a quizzing program called Quizziz that has "power ups" like freezing the timer, eliminating two answer choices, etc as well as streaks and badges in my engineering class to get the kids more engaged with new unit vocabulary. It works well for things like that, but really badly for any kind of problem where they have to do math on paper to solve the problem because if it's a quiz on the computer only like the top 10% of students will automatically take out their notebooks and actually try to solve the problem instead of just guessing (without me reminding them to do it / maybe giving bonus points for "showing work").
There are problems that take well to being gamified, in other words, and problems that don't. Anything where you have to think for more than a minute doesn't work as well.
And it's not just quizziz, there's tons of these programs... Kahoot is another popular one... the thing is that they work. The students like them. But they can't replace other slower and less videogamey kinds of instruction that you also need for anything that's not a multiple choice question.
But it's also this thing where the students - especially the ones I teach who have busy parents & spend a lot of their time on their phones on social media - are being constantly gamified outside of school. So we use these measures in part to compete with that, to do something students actually like and are interested in, and to keep their attention.
posted by subdee at 7:32 AM on November 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
But the video game elements are creeping in. For instance I use a quizzing program called Quizziz that has "power ups" like freezing the timer, eliminating two answer choices, etc as well as streaks and badges in my engineering class to get the kids more engaged with new unit vocabulary. It works well for things like that, but really badly for any kind of problem where they have to do math on paper to solve the problem because if it's a quiz on the computer only like the top 10% of students will automatically take out their notebooks and actually try to solve the problem instead of just guessing (without me reminding them to do it / maybe giving bonus points for "showing work").
There are problems that take well to being gamified, in other words, and problems that don't. Anything where you have to think for more than a minute doesn't work as well.
And it's not just quizziz, there's tons of these programs... Kahoot is another popular one... the thing is that they work. The students like them. But they can't replace other slower and less videogamey kinds of instruction that you also need for anything that's not a multiple choice question.
But it's also this thing where the students - especially the ones I teach who have busy parents & spend a lot of their time on their phones on social media - are being constantly gamified outside of school. So we use these measures in part to compete with that, to do something students actually like and are interested in, and to keep their attention.
posted by subdee at 7:32 AM on November 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
clawsoon: Yes! Here's the start of the (satirical) tweet thread:
posted by adrianhon at 7:35 AM on November 4, 2022 [108 favorites]
@adrianhon: Me hearing Twitter Blue compared to pay-to-win games: “That’s like a baby’s toy!”and then who would've thought...
Here’s what REAL gamification would look like, including a Twitter Battle Pass, Achievements, Happy Hour, Streaks, and more! 🧵
@elonmusk: Some good ideas hereThis is without doubt the pinnacle of my satirical shitposting career, I might as well wrap it up now, which is good timing given where Twitter is going...
posted by adrianhon at 7:35 AM on November 4, 2022 [108 favorites]
Also - thank you for the fantastic post Bella Donna!
subdee: That's a really important point. Rewards and punishments and incentives have been with us for centuries and millennia, so in many respects the core behavioural aspects of gamification are nothing new, including in schools. But there is a absolutely a qualitative difference between getting a grade at the end of a class, and being scored in real time – with real time feedback – using the aesthetics of video games.
posted by adrianhon at 7:39 AM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
subdee: That's a really important point. Rewards and punishments and incentives have been with us for centuries and millennia, so in many respects the core behavioural aspects of gamification are nothing new, including in schools. But there is a absolutely a qualitative difference between getting a grade at the end of a class, and being scored in real time – with real time feedback – using the aesthetics of video games.
posted by adrianhon at 7:39 AM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Personally I think Jane McGonnigal's Reality Is Broken: Why Games Make Us Better and How They Can Change the World (Dec 2011) was the turning point for this. When that book came out lots of things had not yet been gamified, and it looks at the phenomenon of (largely young men) spending more time in game worlds than reality and how game mechanics can be used to entice them back to reality.
In the book gamification is going to be this great thing that makes the world better!!! Reading it now is a real snapshot of the world just before it changed, like watching The Office.
posted by subdee at 7:41 AM on November 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
In the book gamification is going to be this great thing that makes the world better!!! Reading it now is a real snapshot of the world just before it changed, like watching The Office.
posted by subdee at 7:41 AM on November 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
The Simpsons did an episode about this a few years ago. Springfield comes into possession of a large amount of money and must decide how to spend it. Instead of building a monorail this time, they decide to build a future-oriented STEM school to replace Springfield Elementary so they can better prepare their children for the jobs of tomorrow.
The 'Homer' part of that synopsis is basically the story of John Henry so I guess one could say this has been around for a long time.
I actually have no problem gamifying some things (like exercise) but things like work accomplishments with the pens as prizes? Come on!
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:41 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
The 'Homer' part of that synopsis is basically the story of John Henry so I guess one could say this has been around for a long time.
I actually have no problem gamifying some things (like exercise) but things like work accomplishments with the pens as prizes? Come on!
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:41 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
There was once a total quality control pioneer, W. Edwards Deming, who preached doing away with all quotas and competition, and replace it with leadership, learning, cooperation, total improvement, etc. He won acclaim, especially in post-war Japan, and proved his point time again in real life implementations. He promoted common sense notions such as letting someone know why they are cleaning something in a restaurant, rather than just how. Relevant link to internal locus of control.
posted by Brian B. at 7:44 AM on November 4, 2022 [27 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 7:44 AM on November 4, 2022 [27 favorites]
Stopped in a Dairy Queen the other day and saw the big screen behind the counter that was obviously their points-based gamified employee torture device. Companies complain about not being able to hire enough people and yet continue to expect employees to put up with this kind of bullshit. Seriously, stop with the games and just pay a living wage.
posted by misterpatrick at 8:02 AM on November 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 8:02 AM on November 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
You know what they say: "The only winning move is not to play."
posted by heyitsgogi at 8:04 AM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by heyitsgogi at 8:04 AM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
One of the things that I hate the most about the creep of gamification into the work world is that I am a person who dislikes and is bad at games and competition, but is very good at actual work. A personality feature that is rapidly rendering me unemployable. I can't be the only one.
posted by DSime at 8:41 AM on November 4, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by DSime at 8:41 AM on November 4, 2022 [23 favorites]
Meta on Ed Deming
Funny I was graduating as gamification was just getting dropped as a buzzword.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 8:43 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Funny I was graduating as gamification was just getting dropped as a buzzword.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 8:43 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think the pens and gold stars would make sense if they were recognition from a community that added up to people respecting and taking care of you in your old age because they remembered the contributions you made and how the community honoured them. But when you're a line on a spreadsheet who will be deleted as soon as your perceived contribution drops below your cost, and the only thing getting you through retirement will be the money you're paid now, the pens and gold stars are worse than nothing. They're a mockery.
posted by clawsoon at 8:44 AM on November 4, 2022 [34 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 8:44 AM on November 4, 2022 [34 favorites]
I tried to make a chores game as a kid, some kind of score or progression system to make chores fun. Turns out trying to make a game was the only fun part. Chores need to get done and games ain't gonna get em there. Do the chores, then do fun.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:45 AM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:45 AM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
And Duolingo has pissed me off with its gamification. Motivating people to keep up their language practice is one thing, but it's long since slid into trying to coax people to grind levels in order to stay atop the leaderboards. That's not a real great way to get grammar and vocabulary to stick.
I started Duolingo just about 70* days ago because my Spanish is rusty. When I started, the gamification was... fine? I would actually spend 30-60 minutes every night going through the lessons. One of the neat features was there were typically three or four different lessons available at most times and you only had to take a certain percentage to jump to the next set of questions. They made a change about two weeks ago, where you have to take ALL of the lessons and IN ORDER. I now only do the one required a day to keep my streak. Will probably leave soon. It has totally become a grind.
Stopped in a Dairy Queen the other day and saw the big screen behind the counter that was obviously their points-based gamified employee torture device.
Heh. Waaay back in HS (a long time ago, in agalaxy state far, far away...), one of my friends worked at McDonalds. Not exactly gamification, but he said as you were placing a customer's order, the monitor would flash suggested upsells. He never, ever suggested any of the upsells.
*How do I know almost exactly 70?I was enjoying it and had a 66 day streak. Why did I lose the streak? After their change, one day it just felt like work instead of learning. I took three days off because they took the fun out of it.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:56 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I started Duolingo just about 70* days ago because my Spanish is rusty. When I started, the gamification was... fine? I would actually spend 30-60 minutes every night going through the lessons. One of the neat features was there were typically three or four different lessons available at most times and you only had to take a certain percentage to jump to the next set of questions. They made a change about two weeks ago, where you have to take ALL of the lessons and IN ORDER. I now only do the one required a day to keep my streak. Will probably leave soon. It has totally become a grind.
Stopped in a Dairy Queen the other day and saw the big screen behind the counter that was obviously their points-based gamified employee torture device.
Heh. Waaay back in HS (a long time ago, in a
*How do I know almost exactly 70?I was enjoying it and had a 66 day streak. Why did I lose the streak? After their change, one day it just felt like work instead of learning. I took three days off because they took the fun out of it.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:56 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
And it's not just quizziz, there's tons of these programs... Kahoot is another popular one... the thing is that they work. The students like them. But they can't replace other slower and less videogamey kinds of instruction that you also need for anything that's not a multiple choice question.
These kinds of tools can work extremely well when you give hard questions (with no or negligible penalties for wrong answers) and use those to springboard groupwork or class discussions of the question. There's something magical about each and every student having to commit to an answer, even if they're basically guessing. It makes them want to get to the right answer and that really increases engagement with the material.
Plus, yeah, they love the whiz-bang tech of it. When I was using and older version of the same technology—with college students—I had to stop giving them the option to change their answer, because they would jam up the receiver by entering answers again and again because they liked watching the square with their number on it change color on the screen.
posted by BrashTech at 8:58 AM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
These kinds of tools can work extremely well when you give hard questions (with no or negligible penalties for wrong answers) and use those to springboard groupwork or class discussions of the question. There's something magical about each and every student having to commit to an answer, even if they're basically guessing. It makes them want to get to the right answer and that really increases engagement with the material.
Plus, yeah, they love the whiz-bang tech of it. When I was using and older version of the same technology—with college students—I had to stop giving them the option to change their answer, because they would jam up the receiver by entering answers again and again because they liked watching the square with their number on it change color on the screen.
posted by BrashTech at 8:58 AM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Ima give this post a favorite!
Joking aside, like any marker, favorites are definitely gamified and that's why I don't use them. On the other hand, monetizing them would be a great way to take advantage of that primal need to play games and raise revenue for the site. Say you pay the site $1 for every favorite you hand out. People who receive a fave get $0.50 (which they can either spend on favorites, themselves, or cash out), and the site gets the other half. /s /maybe
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:31 AM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Joking aside, like any marker, favorites are definitely gamified and that's why I don't use them. On the other hand, monetizing them would be a great way to take advantage of that primal need to play games and raise revenue for the site. Say you pay the site $1 for every favorite you hand out. People who receive a fave get $0.50 (which they can either spend on favorites, themselves, or cash out), and the site gets the other half. /s /maybe
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:31 AM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
favorites are definitely gamified
*Citation needed
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:33 AM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
*Citation needed
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:33 AM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Say you pay the site $1 for every favorite you hand out. People who receive a fave get $0.50 (which they can either spend on favorites, themselves, or cash out), and the site gets the other half. /s /maybe
I'd be curious to know how changing from gamified to monifiedetized using money changes the dynamic of stuff like this. Would we end up like those play-to-earn games, with rich North Americans hiring teams of Filipinos and Indians to make comments and favourite them?
posted by clawsoon at 9:37 AM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'd be curious to know how changing from gamified to mon
posted by clawsoon at 9:37 AM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I remember at one of my previous webdev jobs, management instituted a new learning program to help work on a fearful company culture that had people hiding problems. Good intent and goal, but there were a lot of "unskippable" videos that blocked your progress through the courses and other cruft that made everything frustrating. Took away time from our regular job (which still needed to be done) and was required as part of the EOY compensation and bonus program
Oh and it was gamified to the hllt with points and badges and yada yada yada. Departments competing for a party sorta thing.
So, what did a bunch of webdevs do? We figured out how the website worked and made a script of posts and javascript inserts that you could load into the browser console and skip through all the crufty stuff and passed around a cheat sheet of answers to get our pass rate to 100%.
I don't think that was their intention, but it sure brought our department together in an attempt to beat the system.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:38 AM on November 4, 2022 [31 favorites]
Oh and it was gamified to the hllt with points and badges and yada yada yada. Departments competing for a party sorta thing.
So, what did a bunch of webdevs do? We figured out how the website worked and made a script of posts and javascript inserts that you could load into the browser console and skip through all the crufty stuff and passed around a cheat sheet of answers to get our pass rate to 100%.
I don't think that was their intention, but it sure brought our department together in an attempt to beat the system.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:38 AM on November 4, 2022 [31 favorites]
I use mefi favorites as a bookmark system, personally.
One thing I always want to point out to people is that Wikipedia is an impressive website that is far better than 99% of the rest of the internet that has turned into SEO garbage content spam, and Wikipedia has done this all without an upvote or points or view count system, or even a way to directly credit the authors.
I repeat: the best website on the internet doesn't use the things that social media websites see as foundational because those things are heated for quantity and growth at the direct expense of quality.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:48 AM on November 4, 2022 [33 favorites]
One thing I always want to point out to people is that Wikipedia is an impressive website that is far better than 99% of the rest of the internet that has turned into SEO garbage content spam, and Wikipedia has done this all without an upvote or points or view count system, or even a way to directly credit the authors.
I repeat: the best website on the internet doesn't use the things that social media websites see as foundational because those things are heated for quantity and growth at the direct expense of quality.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:48 AM on November 4, 2022 [33 favorites]
I think wikipedia definitely has some monitoring systems that track who makes what contributions. They just aren't as up front, so people who do a lot of wiki know where they are and what they mean.
posted by Jacen at 10:04 AM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 10:04 AM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Duolingo has pissed me off with its gamification.
I've used Duolingo since 2014. I'm currently in the middle of both a paid subscription and a 350+ day streak.
This most recent update has me looking into some of their competitors.
posted by box at 10:04 AM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I've used Duolingo since 2014. I'm currently in the middle of both a paid subscription and a 350+ day streak.
This most recent update has me looking into some of their competitors.
posted by box at 10:04 AM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I use mefi favorites as a bookmark system, personally.
Same but I also use them to mean I like a comment, or sometimes in a long thread as a marker for where I stopped reading. I contain multitudes.
Any process that puts a worker in competition with another worker is a tool of oppression.
Yeah, we had a great system for awhile that was for kudos, so it was somewhat gamified - you got points that you could then "spend" in a store for little tchotchkes like stationery supplies but also they had gift cards to the grocery store down from my house so you could also get real money - but there was no competition since you "winning" didn't mean somebody else lost. In theory everybody could earn kudos every day. There was no incentive to give out kudos to others except for the usual social incentive of wanting to thank somebody who does you a solid, that part was not gamified, so getting the kudos felt genuine. It was nice, so of course we stopped doing it.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:09 AM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Same but I also use them to mean I like a comment, or sometimes in a long thread as a marker for where I stopped reading. I contain multitudes.
Any process that puts a worker in competition with another worker is a tool of oppression.
Yeah, we had a great system for awhile that was for kudos, so it was somewhat gamified - you got points that you could then "spend" in a store for little tchotchkes like stationery supplies but also they had gift cards to the grocery store down from my house so you could also get real money - but there was no competition since you "winning" didn't mean somebody else lost. In theory everybody could earn kudos every day. There was no incentive to give out kudos to others except for the usual social incentive of wanting to thank somebody who does you a solid, that part was not gamified, so getting the kudos felt genuine. It was nice, so of course we stopped doing it.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:09 AM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
So, how soon will it be that when I go in for my yearly medical checkup, I’ll find my doctor wearing a white coat festooned with badges saying things like 93% of my patients are still alive, I diagnosed that serious GI problem, I saved the hospital $20,000 this month, etc?
posted by njohnson23 at 10:12 AM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 10:12 AM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Metafilter: they liked watching the square with their number on it change color on the screen.
posted by genpfault at 10:27 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by genpfault at 10:27 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I've used Duolingo since 2014. I'm currently in the middle of both a paid subscription and a 350+ day streak.
This most recent update has me looking into some of their competitors.
Looks like Duolingo is approaching the Trust Thermocline! [Original tweet thread by @garius]
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 10:55 AM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
This most recent update has me looking into some of their competitors.
Looks like Duolingo is approaching the Trust Thermocline! [Original tweet thread by @garius]
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 10:55 AM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I used Duolingo in the book as an example of good, or at least harmless gamification. It's sad to see how it's drastically reduced user freedom in choosing lessons, to the point it's being compared to Candy Crush in its linearity. Though I wonder if I should've been more critical in the first place – I don't see how things like the XP Happy Hour are especially constructive forms of motivation. Many people can ignore those notifications but some people really can't.
posted by adrianhon at 11:00 AM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 11:00 AM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
I "earned 51 points" buying the book on Amazon just now.
posted by lock robster at 11:02 AM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by lock robster at 11:02 AM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I repeat: the best website on the internet doesn't use the things that social media websites see as foundational because those things are heated for quantity and growth at the direct expense of quality.
The difference, of course, is that Wikipedia isn't trying to turn anyone into a billionaire.
posted by biogeo at 11:22 AM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I absolutely hate this shit, to my bones.
I do not want or need for my audiobook app to award me points or badges, and there is no way to turn them off.
Similar feelings about anything I do at my job; things I do for meditative pleasure; and things I do to de-stress.
I am not eight fucking years old, I do not need a star-chart and badges to help me build a sense of pleasure in day-to-day tasks, nor to provide additional encouragement for learning the secondary skills of having and maintaining routines.
I feel like it misses the most important point: INTERNAL CONTENTMENT DOES NOT ARISE FROM CONSTANT EXTERNAL RECOGNITION.
CONTENTMENT COMES FROM BEING DEEP INSIDE YOUR OWN PERSONAL, LIVED WORLD, AND ENGAGING WITH THE MINUTIAE OF IT WITH A SENSE OF INTRINSIC PURPOSE, BEAUTY, AND UTILITY.
The whole gamification is the exact opposite side of mindful participation in Life As It Is.
posted by Silvery Fish at 11:27 AM on November 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
I do not want or need for my audiobook app to award me points or badges, and there is no way to turn them off.
Similar feelings about anything I do at my job; things I do for meditative pleasure; and things I do to de-stress.
I am not eight fucking years old, I do not need a star-chart and badges to help me build a sense of pleasure in day-to-day tasks, nor to provide additional encouragement for learning the secondary skills of having and maintaining routines.
I feel like it misses the most important point: INTERNAL CONTENTMENT DOES NOT ARISE FROM CONSTANT EXTERNAL RECOGNITION.
CONTENTMENT COMES FROM BEING DEEP INSIDE YOUR OWN PERSONAL, LIVED WORLD, AND ENGAGING WITH THE MINUTIAE OF IT WITH A SENSE OF INTRINSIC PURPOSE, BEAUTY, AND UTILITY.
The whole gamification is the exact opposite side of mindful participation in Life As It Is.
posted by Silvery Fish at 11:27 AM on November 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
I majored in production management in college - in the back half of the 1980s. We got a heavy dose of Ed Demming, and also a heavy dose of "scientific management." At the time, I didn't realize what a jack wagon Frederick Tayor was. In my defense, I never actually worked managing production lines, so I never implemented any of the bullshit I learned in college.
posted by COD at 11:30 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by COD at 11:30 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
There was no incentive to give out kudos to others except for the usual social incentive of wanting to thank somebody who does you a solid, that part was not gamified, so getting the kudos felt genuine. It was nice, so of course we stopped doing it.I’ve been wondering for a while how it would feel if MeFi favorites were private - enshrine it as a way to tell someone thank you but removing the public leaderboard aspect. We don’t have the algorithm-gaming problem but I think that still encourages hot takes somewhat.
posted by adamsc at 11:41 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Where is this public leaderboard we're supposedly watching? I'd like to see some actual data on how favorites "encourage" hot takes.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:44 AM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:44 AM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I wouldn’t call Mefi’s favourites especially gamified but they do enable people to more easily treat it like a game, by seeing what other users react to. One way to change this would be to simply hide the favourite count behind a button or a click, so it’s not as visible while casually reading a thread.
posted by adrianhon at 11:45 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 11:45 AM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Where is this public leaderboard we're supposedly watching? I'd like to see some actual data on how favorites "encourage" hot takes.
Sounds like an opportunity for an experiment. On every second thread, hide favourites. After a few months, get a team of depressed, underpaid PhD students to read every comment randomly and rate it on a hot take scale.
posted by clawsoon at 11:47 AM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Sounds like an opportunity for an experiment. On every second thread, hide favourites. After a few months, get a team of depressed, underpaid PhD students to read every comment randomly and rate it on a hot take scale.
posted by clawsoon at 11:47 AM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I personally do find favorites useful for a number of reasons and don't particularly think all this purported gaming is going on; but I'm dropping the topic before it becomes a derail.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:49 AM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:49 AM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I am not as pure as the rest of you. I've definitely felt the thrill of making a highly-favourited comment, and feeding off that thrill.
posted by clawsoon at 11:51 AM on November 4, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:51 AM on November 4, 2022 [21 favorites]
Metafilter:
Favorited
Favorited by others
posted by Chuffy at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Favorited
Favorited by others
posted by Chuffy at 12:09 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I am not pure, period. I have made posts that received literally one comment and favourited, maybe, by no one. I have made posts (and comments) that got a fair number of favourites. That feels better.
I use favourites as bookmarks but not only as bookmarks. I also use them as signals to indicate one or more ideas: 1. I agree! 2. That sucks! 3. I hear you! 4. Great comment! Etc.
A buddy once hired me to help him paint the inside of a single-family home. He recommended trying to make it a game. I honestly could not. So then he introduced me to the Savage Love podcast, which I listened to happily while painting.
Adrian, does your book mention behavioural designer Nir Eyal? He wrote a book called Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products. I have not read the book but given its title, am deeply suspicious about the idea behind behavioural designers, which seems related to gamification.
From the website: "For most of my career, I’ve worked in the video gaming and advertising industries where I learned and applied (and at times rejected) the techniques used to motivate and manipulate users. I write to help companies create behaviors that benefit their users while educating people on how to build healthful habits in their own lives." Hmmm. Are those two things supposed to cancel each other out? To be fair, like many humans I often tend toward black-and-white thinking, which may not be fair to him.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:22 PM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I use favourites as bookmarks but not only as bookmarks. I also use them as signals to indicate one or more ideas: 1. I agree! 2. That sucks! 3. I hear you! 4. Great comment! Etc.
A buddy once hired me to help him paint the inside of a single-family home. He recommended trying to make it a game. I honestly could not. So then he introduced me to the Savage Love podcast, which I listened to happily while painting.
Adrian, does your book mention behavioural designer Nir Eyal? He wrote a book called Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products. I have not read the book but given its title, am deeply suspicious about the idea behind behavioural designers, which seems related to gamification.
From the website: "For most of my career, I’ve worked in the video gaming and advertising industries where I learned and applied (and at times rejected) the techniques used to motivate and manipulate users. I write to help companies create behaviors that benefit their users while educating people on how to build healthful habits in their own lives." Hmmm. Are those two things supposed to cancel each other out? To be fair, like many humans I often tend toward black-and-white thinking, which may not be fair to him.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:22 PM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don’t mention that book but I’m familiar with his work, and I dislike it for some of the reasons you mention. What he is doing is contemptible. It’s also fixated on behaviourism as the main way to motivate people, which I think is incorrect.
posted by adrianhon at 12:36 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 12:36 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I also re-read my highly favourited comments, like I'm trying to absorb what it was that made people like it. Is that a thing in all this gamification stuff?
posted by clawsoon at 12:37 PM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 12:37 PM on November 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
These kinds of tools can work extremely well when you give hard questions (with no or negligible penalties for wrong answers) and use those to springboard groupwork or class discussions of the question.
Oh that's definitely true! You can do it low-tech too by having them hold up papers with their answer choice on it, or using barcodes and a phone app. But there's tons of ways to poll now, not just these games (if I think the questions are too hard for students to do on their own we'll do the 'instructor paced' quiz and I'll pause to go over the answer if it looks like the majority of the class needs help) but zoom, google classroom, etc etc all have polling features.
You can randomly select names on google classroom too... i mean I use cue cards bc it's easier for me and I can fudge it a little but the name selector tool is neat and waiting to see if they'll be called on / watching their classmates get put on the spot keeps em on their toes.
posted by subdee at 12:37 PM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh that's definitely true! You can do it low-tech too by having them hold up papers with their answer choice on it, or using barcodes and a phone app. But there's tons of ways to poll now, not just these games (if I think the questions are too hard for students to do on their own we'll do the 'instructor paced' quiz and I'll pause to go over the answer if it looks like the majority of the class needs help) but zoom, google classroom, etc etc all have polling features.
You can randomly select names on google classroom too... i mean I use cue cards bc it's easier for me and I can fudge it a little but the name selector tool is neat and waiting to see if they'll be called on / watching their classmates get put on the spot keeps em on their toes.
posted by subdee at 12:37 PM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't think metafilter can compete with any 'modern' message board without at least favorites. At least favorites don't change how comments or posts appear on the page (like reddit upvotes/downvotes) and there's no badges, rewards, etc etc etc.
On AO3 older authors complain about the 'kudos' button because it encourages people to just click like instead of leaving a real comment, and sorting by kudos tells you more about mainstream taste than the actual quality of the writing. But man, I do refresh my mefi profile to see if people are favoriting my comments and a lot of the time it reminds me to go back to a thread I commented in and follow the new discussion. I think there's a level at which the gamification becomes predatory and favorites don't reach that level.
posted by subdee at 12:43 PM on November 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
On AO3 older authors complain about the 'kudos' button because it encourages people to just click like instead of leaving a real comment, and sorting by kudos tells you more about mainstream taste than the actual quality of the writing. But man, I do refresh my mefi profile to see if people are favoriting my comments and a lot of the time it reminds me to go back to a thread I commented in and follow the new discussion. I think there's a level at which the gamification becomes predatory and favorites don't reach that level.
posted by subdee at 12:43 PM on November 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
Shoutout to my coworkers (which might include me) for writing a script that automatically gave us 10,000 steps for every single day of the year, which the gamified health system gave us all $200 worth of gift cards for our great activity levels.
posted by meowzilla at 12:59 PM on November 4, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 12:59 PM on November 4, 2022 [26 favorites]
Is that a thing in all this gamification stuff?
I was just being cheerfully cynical and hoping to find something useful to derive from the larger phenomenon, but it does seem useful to recognize scorekeeping as one aspect of gamification.
One can have two comments, the first saying "X" and the response saying "No, not X", and one can thereafter see favorites (or whatever they are called, kudos, likes on Twitter, etc. etc.) being used to tally — and decide by group dynamics — which is therefore "correct". It even goes beyond "likes"; social groups on Twitter will use the term "ratio" to denote a different score derived from this mechanic.
I wouldn't claim that this purpose is all these are used for on social media sites, but I hope that reasonable people would agree it is a considerable part of it. Is it a shortcut to reasoned assent or disagreement, or just a click for points? Social media sites that use this game mechanic — however quietly or "politely", and whatever the underlying quick-click-link is called — are vulnerable to that.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:40 PM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was just being cheerfully cynical and hoping to find something useful to derive from the larger phenomenon, but it does seem useful to recognize scorekeeping as one aspect of gamification.
One can have two comments, the first saying "X" and the response saying "No, not X", and one can thereafter see favorites (or whatever they are called, kudos, likes on Twitter, etc. etc.) being used to tally — and decide by group dynamics — which is therefore "correct". It even goes beyond "likes"; social groups on Twitter will use the term "ratio" to denote a different score derived from this mechanic.
I wouldn't claim that this purpose is all these are used for on social media sites, but I hope that reasonable people would agree it is a considerable part of it. Is it a shortcut to reasoned assent or disagreement, or just a click for points? Social media sites that use this game mechanic — however quietly or "politely", and whatever the underlying quick-click-link is called — are vulnerable to that.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:40 PM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
The real thrill of metafilter favourites is when some comment from 15 years ago picks up a favourite. Gives me the warm fuzzies and often a little wtf all day.
posted by Mitheral at 1:45 PM on November 4, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 1:45 PM on November 4, 2022 [26 favorites]
Aha! So I can now dignify my lack of interest in all video games as part of my pattern of resistance to extrinsic motivators — but only by ignoring an almost equally high level of resistance to intrinsic motivation as well, unfortunately.
posted by jamjam at 1:47 PM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 1:47 PM on November 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I remember one particularly heated discussion here on Metafilter in which people said that they don't just pay attention to favourites, they pay attention to who gives favourites to what. I don't know how common it is, but it surely adds an extra level to this favourites business. A meta level, if you will...
posted by clawsoon at 2:01 PM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 2:01 PM on November 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
A wise professor at the university taught me a software development trick. Find a good spot on the ceiling. It has to be a good spot, you're going to be staring at it for a long time. I was being silly - I was staring at the screen and ruining my eyes. I wasn't editing or reading, just staring at the screen while I thought. I haven't suffered eye-strain since I learned the ceiling trick.
So if you see me staring at the ceiling, don't bother me, I'm hard at work. I should be earning points for how long I stare at the ceiling. If you interrupt my ceiling time by pursuing fake points in the world's most banal rpg, I'm not going to get much work done.
What would a productivity consultant actually see if they watch me work? Gazes into space for 10 minutes and then types for thirty seconds. It's as if he's barely working at all! They. Don't. Undertstand.
posted by adept256 at 2:17 PM on November 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
So if you see me staring at the ceiling, don't bother me, I'm hard at work. I should be earning points for how long I stare at the ceiling. If you interrupt my ceiling time by pursuing fake points in the world's most banal rpg, I'm not going to get much work done.
What would a productivity consultant actually see if they watch me work? Gazes into space for 10 minutes and then types for thirty seconds. It's as if he's barely working at all! They. Don't. Undertstand.
posted by adept256 at 2:17 PM on November 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
I used to like getting achievements on Xbox, but they kind of lose their luster as a collectible eventually. I recently saw someone got a game they really wanted (so they'd preordered) a few days early... but they weren't playing it because achievements weren't popping up. You get them later when the game goes "live", but it just really depressed me that the little pop-ups which are just artificially tacked on things to an actual game were so important. Normally, getting to play something before everyone else is like one of the coolest feelings.
Just a weird what the fuck are we even doing here moment, I guess.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:19 PM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Just a weird what the fuck are we even doing here moment, I guess.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:19 PM on November 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Just requested that my department's library buy this book.
posted by humbug at 2:20 PM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by humbug at 2:20 PM on November 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I wouldn’t call Mefi’s favourites especially gamified but they do enable people to more easily treat it like a game, by seeing what other users react to. One way to change this would be to simply hide the favourite count behind a button or a click, so it’s not as visible while casually reading a thread.
Is this different than the option we have to turn off favorites? I haven't seen favorite counts on comments for many years now because I turned them off as soon as that option was available.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:03 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Is this different than the option we have to turn off favorites? I haven't seen favorite counts on comments for many years now because I turned them off as soon as that option was available.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:03 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
oneirodynia: I’ve been here for over 20 years and I’ve never noticed that setting until now! The power of defaults…
posted by adrianhon at 3:20 PM on November 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 3:20 PM on November 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
Ive got them off too but theory is the bulk of people having them on influences what comments and posts get written because of the positive feedback. Usually comes up when "bad" comments get a lot of favourites by whatever metric the person making the connection thinks are bad.
posted by Mitheral at 4:44 PM on November 4, 2022
posted by Mitheral at 4:44 PM on November 4, 2022
somehow...
this reminds me of (IIRC) some actor's famous remark about:
"Darling, you must (learn to) ignore the *good* ones (reviews) as well. "
Or something like that...
But I'm old, and I was able to get paid for doing complicated stuff that I was interested in. It wasn't worth the (possible) advantages (to me) to play any of the (different) games at work. And I don't do much social media. But a lot of people aren't so lucky.
It's still worthwhile rationing yourself with the dopamine hits. Or even, giving them up.
posted by aleph at 6:04 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
this reminds me of (IIRC) some actor's famous remark about:
"Darling, you must (learn to) ignore the *good* ones (reviews) as well. "
Or something like that...
But I'm old, and I was able to get paid for doing complicated stuff that I was interested in. It wasn't worth the (possible) advantages (to me) to play any of the (different) games at work. And I don't do much social media. But a lot of people aren't so lucky.
It's still worthwhile rationing yourself with the dopamine hits. Or even, giving them up.
posted by aleph at 6:04 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Lewis Mumford was mentioned, megatechnics?
The Polytechnic/Monotechnic. Absolutely fascinating and I haven't read it. The idea of gamification in an American auto plant is interesting. What would be interesting is overlap from the company to Union tactics of resistance.
posted by clavdivs at 6:55 PM on November 4, 2022
The Polytechnic/Monotechnic. Absolutely fascinating and I haven't read it. The idea of gamification in an American auto plant is interesting. What would be interesting is overlap from the company to Union tactics of resistance.
posted by clavdivs at 6:55 PM on November 4, 2022
Where is this public leaderboard we're supposedly watching? I'd like to see some actual data on how favorites "encourage" hot takes.At the top of the site navigation? I wasn’t really thinking about that so much as the way the count is displayed by default in comment threads, however. It’s not anything like how Twitter or Facebook boost rights out of context but it can still encourage a dogpile or discourage disagreement. Sometimes that’s good when someone is saying “don’t be a jerk” but I certainly won’t pretend never to have felt the “you tell him!” instinct, and I’d be shocked if this didn’t at least subconsciously encourage people to be more provocative because that has a higher chance of getting a bunch of favorites whereas both being mild or failing at provocative will get you the same zero.
Again, I’m not saying disaster is nigh and we need to change something for the sake of the blue - only that I bet something seemingly simple has more impact than we tend to think. I also think, in line with the broader thread topic, that it’d be hard to change because so many people have been trained to think of everything they say as getting a score from their peers.
posted by adamsc at 7:42 PM on November 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Now go read Punished by Rewards and weep.
posted by interogative mood at 9:34 PM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 9:34 PM on November 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
forgot the Amazon link
latest from Alfie:"Over the years I’ve heard a lot of people complain — sometimes good-naturedly, sometimes with remarkable venom — about our field’s use of jargon. Eventually I began to wonder why “eduspeak” or “edspeak” (or, less charitably, “edu-babble”) vexes people so, and to what extent that reaction is justified.
posted by clavdivs at 10:58 PM on November 4, 2022
latest from Alfie:"Over the years I’ve heard a lot of people complain — sometimes good-naturedly, sometimes with remarkable venom — about our field’s use of jargon. Eventually I began to wonder why “eduspeak” or “edspeak” (or, less charitably, “edu-babble”) vexes people so, and to what extent that reaction is justified.
posted by clavdivs at 10:58 PM on November 4, 2022
Adrian, does your book mention behavioural designer Nir Eyal? He wrote a book called Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products. I have not read the book but given its title, am deeply suspicious about the idea behind behavioural designers, which seems related to gamification.
posted by Bella Donna
Nir Eyal seems to play both sides of the game. Hooked is an industry handbook on how to get people hooked to your software/service and maximize their screen time. A couple of years later, he wrote Indistractable: how to control your attention and choose your life, aimed at ordinary users, telling them that all they need to liberate themselves from their screen addiction is a little self-discipline.
Eyal is featured in Stolen focus, Johann Hari's book about stress and screen addiction. You can listen to a - sometimes heated - conversation between Hari and Eyal on Hari's web site for Stolen focus.
posted by Termite at 12:51 AM on November 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna
Nir Eyal seems to play both sides of the game. Hooked is an industry handbook on how to get people hooked to your software/service and maximize their screen time. A couple of years later, he wrote Indistractable: how to control your attention and choose your life, aimed at ordinary users, telling them that all they need to liberate themselves from their screen addiction is a little self-discipline.
Eyal is featured in Stolen focus, Johann Hari's book about stress and screen addiction. You can listen to a - sometimes heated - conversation between Hari and Eyal on Hari's web site for Stolen focus.
posted by Termite at 12:51 AM on November 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
> But it's also this thing where the students - especially the ones I teach who have busy parents & spend a lot of their time on their phones on social media - are being constantly gamified outside of school. So we use these measures in part to compete with that, to do something students actually like and are interested in, and to keep their attention.
Badges Instead of Grades - "The Democratic Knowledge Project proposes another way to measure student learning."
Badges Instead of Grades - "The Democratic Knowledge Project proposes another way to measure student learning."
Harvard professor Danielle Allen[1,2] and her team at the Democratic Knowledge Project think it’s time a similar “badging” approach be used in schools across the country to replace traditional letter grades. As they spell out in their new white paper, A Call to More Equitable Learning: How Next-Generation Badging Improves Education for All, badging is a more accurate, equitable way to measure, record, and report K–12 student learning.posted by kliuless at 2:11 AM on November 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Another stunner, Bella Donna!
What is so astonishing about the fact that our prisons resemble our factories, schools, military bases, and hospitals - all of which in turn resemble prisons?
I don’t agree with everything Michel says, but Discipline & Punish is endlessly useful for me as a tool to think with.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 3:14 AM on November 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
What is so astonishing about the fact that our prisons resemble our factories, schools, military bases, and hospitals - all of which in turn resemble prisons?
I don’t agree with everything Michel says, but Discipline & Punish is endlessly useful for me as a tool to think with.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 3:14 AM on November 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Many thanks for the link to those interviews, Termite! I am halfway through the Nir Eyal interview, which is fascinating. Inspired by others in this thread, I’m going to try to get the main library branch in my town to order a copy of Adrian’s book.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:26 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 3:26 AM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Speaking of gamification: When Robinhood launched its gamified stock and options trading app in 2015, and rose to popular prominence over the next few years, this is who it targeted: a generation financially on the fritz, with enough disposable cash for avocado toast but not enough for mortgages. Of its 21 million users, the average age is 31, and half are first-time investors. And by March 2020, the financial world was threatening to collapse on them for the second time in a decade. If there was ever a time to yolo, wouldn’t this be it?
In the stock market, it takes money to make money. So what do you do when you don’t have very much to begin with? You pour what little you have into overly leveraged, rarely brilliant, sometimes inane trades that lie somewhere in between gambling and investing. From "How I turned $15,000 into $1.2m during the pandemic – then lost it all" in The Guardian.
posted by Bella Donna at 4:00 AM on November 5, 2022
In the stock market, it takes money to make money. So what do you do when you don’t have very much to begin with? You pour what little you have into overly leveraged, rarely brilliant, sometimes inane trades that lie somewhere in between gambling and investing. From "How I turned $15,000 into $1.2m during the pandemic – then lost it all" in The Guardian.
posted by Bella Donna at 4:00 AM on November 5, 2022
People have mentioned a few important names whom I want to shout out further:
On Social Media, Hunting for Voter Fraud Becomes a Game (NYT / Archive)
"On the messaging app Telegram this week, 300 people gathered in a channel devoted to Arizona politics to play an online game. The rules were simple: Find examples of voter fraud and win virtual points. If members of the group had names of undocumented immigrants who intended to vote illegally in Tuesday’s midterm elections and posted details, they were awarded two points. If they identified people who might be organizing buses to transport those immigrants to voting stations, they got 50 points."
‘Game of Thrones: Conquest’ and ‘State of Survival’ Players Say They Felt Addicted and Pressured To Spend (Vice)
"...continuing to advance through the game “through in-game labor alone” becomes all but impossible, which means those who wish to advance must spend money in order to continue on. Referring to State or Survival, for instance, the lawsuits state that to reach one particular level of the game without making any purchases, “it would require close to 16 months of playing two hours each day, 365 days a year.” Alternatively, the lawsuit continues, “instead of devoting countless hours to progress in the game, [players] can simply purchase” packs that over time that quietly add up to $1,400. The games are “designed to create a sense of urgency” when it comes to paying money, partially by “bombarding players with advertisements and invitations to buy additional packs and resources whenever they reach a point in the game where their progress has stalled""...
Wikimedia is adding features to make editing Wikipedia more fun (The Verge)
"Wikimedia’s new system is designed to offer lots of these interface-based rewards. An “impact” section on the newcomer page, for instance, will show people how many pageviews the articles they edited have received, giving them a sense of the difference they’re making. In tests, people who see the new features are about 16 percent more likely to make their first edit and — for people who start the process — are 16 percent more likely to come back and make another."
posted by adrianhon at 4:24 AM on November 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
- Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards is excellent and very readable, and it's 2018 afterword has some choice criticisms of gamification!
- Ursula K. Le Guin's The Dispossessed is an excellent companion in its razor-sharp critique of what motivates us (why study at a university that doesn't give you grades?!?!)
- Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish helps establish the important theoretical and political underpinnings of the purpose of gamification as used by authorities, and provided a through-line to my explicit comparison between gamification and medieval indulgences, which are far more complicated and interesting than we're given to think (virtual pilgrimages!). R. N. Swanson's Indulgences in Late Medieval England is a fantastic source.
- Lewis Mumford's Authoritarian and Democratic Technics (PDF) provided more background on the dangers of gamification at scale.
On Social Media, Hunting for Voter Fraud Becomes a Game (NYT / Archive)
"On the messaging app Telegram this week, 300 people gathered in a channel devoted to Arizona politics to play an online game. The rules were simple: Find examples of voter fraud and win virtual points. If members of the group had names of undocumented immigrants who intended to vote illegally in Tuesday’s midterm elections and posted details, they were awarded two points. If they identified people who might be organizing buses to transport those immigrants to voting stations, they got 50 points."
‘Game of Thrones: Conquest’ and ‘State of Survival’ Players Say They Felt Addicted and Pressured To Spend (Vice)
"...continuing to advance through the game “through in-game labor alone” becomes all but impossible, which means those who wish to advance must spend money in order to continue on. Referring to State or Survival, for instance, the lawsuits state that to reach one particular level of the game without making any purchases, “it would require close to 16 months of playing two hours each day, 365 days a year.” Alternatively, the lawsuit continues, “instead of devoting countless hours to progress in the game, [players] can simply purchase” packs that over time that quietly add up to $1,400. The games are “designed to create a sense of urgency” when it comes to paying money, partially by “bombarding players with advertisements and invitations to buy additional packs and resources whenever they reach a point in the game where their progress has stalled""...
Wikimedia is adding features to make editing Wikipedia more fun (The Verge)
"Wikimedia’s new system is designed to offer lots of these interface-based rewards. An “impact” section on the newcomer page, for instance, will show people how many pageviews the articles they edited have received, giving them a sense of the difference they’re making. In tests, people who see the new features are about 16 percent more likely to make their first edit and — for people who start the process — are 16 percent more likely to come back and make another."
posted by adrianhon at 4:24 AM on November 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
Thanks, Adrian, those are some meaty links. Much appreciated!
In your essay on democracy, you write, "Regulators must also ensure that gamified finance apps and video games don’t manipulate users into losing more money than they can afford." Does You've Been Played discuss Robinhood?
This is not directly related, but I did a short gig for a fintech startup based in Asia a few years back. In the course of writing/editing the annual report, I realized that the company was in the process of broadening its social-media app to include fintech and bring banking services to the many folks who do not have bank accounts... in a gamified format. That horrified me.
It's not that people should be denied access to financial services. But here in Sweden, for example, the ability to get a direct, instant, and high-interest loan via text has led to problems for consumers because the friction for getting such a loan is nearly nonexistent. The idea that income-limited young people in less wealthy nations should be a target market for a gamified fintech company offering high-interest loans is business as usual, I understand that, but it still sucks.
As far as I can tell, companies routinely profit by weaponizing how our brains work against us. That is not news but still infuriating to me, especially when the battle over our brains and pocketbooks is so lopsided. Maybe in some theoretical world, a world in which people are never hungry or tired or sad or lonely or busy or facing illness or a deadline, we could respond appropriately, at all times, to companies that have collectively invested millions (billions?) of dollars to get us to buy stuff, watch stuff, borrow money, gamble more, invest more, etc.
But we do not live in that world. We are fully human, which means flawed in a variety of ways. Many businesses and organisations prey on those flaws to exploit consumers. And because I am American, that means it will forever, always be my fault if companies exploit me as a consumer because I "let" it happen. That is the problem I have with Nir Eyal (and others), if I understand him correctly.
(To be fair to Eyal, he does not support the gaming industry and would like to see some kind of legislation that protects those with a gambling disorder.)
posted by Bella Donna at 5:26 AM on November 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
In your essay on democracy, you write, "Regulators must also ensure that gamified finance apps and video games don’t manipulate users into losing more money than they can afford." Does You've Been Played discuss Robinhood?
This is not directly related, but I did a short gig for a fintech startup based in Asia a few years back. In the course of writing/editing the annual report, I realized that the company was in the process of broadening its social-media app to include fintech and bring banking services to the many folks who do not have bank accounts... in a gamified format. That horrified me.
It's not that people should be denied access to financial services. But here in Sweden, for example, the ability to get a direct, instant, and high-interest loan via text has led to problems for consumers because the friction for getting such a loan is nearly nonexistent. The idea that income-limited young people in less wealthy nations should be a target market for a gamified fintech company offering high-interest loans is business as usual, I understand that, but it still sucks.
As far as I can tell, companies routinely profit by weaponizing how our brains work against us. That is not news but still infuriating to me, especially when the battle over our brains and pocketbooks is so lopsided. Maybe in some theoretical world, a world in which people are never hungry or tired or sad or lonely or busy or facing illness or a deadline, we could respond appropriately, at all times, to companies that have collectively invested millions (billions?) of dollars to get us to buy stuff, watch stuff, borrow money, gamble more, invest more, etc.
But we do not live in that world. We are fully human, which means flawed in a variety of ways. Many businesses and organisations prey on those flaws to exploit consumers. And because I am American, that means it will forever, always be my fault if companies exploit me as a consumer because I "let" it happen. That is the problem I have with Nir Eyal (and others), if I understand him correctly.
(To be fair to Eyal, he does not support the gaming industry and would like to see some kind of legislation that protects those with a gambling disorder.)
posted by Bella Donna at 5:26 AM on November 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
I talk about Robinhood a fair bit, yes! It's certainly gamified, most prominently in its onboarding process, but as many like Matt Levine have pointed out, it's not that gamified. What was interesting about Robinhood was that its fast, accessible interface made it easier for millions of people to access trading, which a lot of people are treating like a game – explicitly, in the case of r/wallstreetbets.
It's been interesting doing interviews about the book. There's a desire for some people to think that gamification is so powerful it can essentially brainwash people; or that it's really the user's fault if they're taken in (the Eyal approach). But we know that things are rarely that simple. Most people don't become compulsive gamblers, even if they've been to a casino a few times – yet some people do, and the growth of gambling apps contributes to that. It is entirely up to the gambling industry and governments to address this, rather than saying it's gamblers' fault.
Similarly, I see a lot of app designers and tech leaders say "well, most people seem to like gamification because they use it a lot (not that they have any choice), and if it ends up harming some people, there's no way to predict that, and even if you could, that's a price worth paying."
To put it lightly, that's an abdication of our duty of care to each other as humans. I have four principles for how to design gamification ethically, and the most important one is that it should be designed with the user's benefit in mind. That is a purposefully general statement but also crucial, because it highlights the imbalance of power and knowledge that lies between the two parties. If our roads are dangerous, we don't train people to run across them faster – we build pedestrian crossings.
posted by adrianhon at 5:48 AM on November 5, 2022 [21 favorites]
It's been interesting doing interviews about the book. There's a desire for some people to think that gamification is so powerful it can essentially brainwash people; or that it's really the user's fault if they're taken in (the Eyal approach). But we know that things are rarely that simple. Most people don't become compulsive gamblers, even if they've been to a casino a few times – yet some people do, and the growth of gambling apps contributes to that. It is entirely up to the gambling industry and governments to address this, rather than saying it's gamblers' fault.
Similarly, I see a lot of app designers and tech leaders say "well, most people seem to like gamification because they use it a lot (not that they have any choice), and if it ends up harming some people, there's no way to predict that, and even if you could, that's a price worth paying."
To put it lightly, that's an abdication of our duty of care to each other as humans. I have four principles for how to design gamification ethically, and the most important one is that it should be designed with the user's benefit in mind. That is a purposefully general statement but also crucial, because it highlights the imbalance of power and knowledge that lies between the two parties. If our roads are dangerous, we don't train people to run across them faster – we build pedestrian crossings.
posted by adrianhon at 5:48 AM on November 5, 2022 [21 favorites]
I’ve been disappointed with every attempt at using gamification for motivation and habit forming. It turns out I find praise and pep talk ineffective at best and patronizing to the point of being counterproductive at worst. What I perceive as infantilizing external motivation reduces my internal motivation and that just backfires. I’ve turned off all fitbit etc. notifications to minimize getting my heckles up by cheerful or slightly admonishing messages or badges. Now I may be able to reframe my mulish resistance as something that’s not so bad after all. Thanks!
posted by meijusa at 6:06 AM on November 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by meijusa at 6:06 AM on November 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
If our roads are dangerous, we don't train people to run across them faster – we build pedestrian crossings.
Flagged as fantastic, Adrian.
posted by Bella Donna at 6:18 AM on November 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Flagged as fantastic, Adrian.
posted by Bella Donna at 6:18 AM on November 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
I also heard Adrian on WFMU on the Techtronic show, archive link here. Super interesting interview!
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 8:53 AM on November 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 8:53 AM on November 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
Reading this right now, and I so want to ask adrianhon what he thinks of gamification and Metafilter.
posted by terrapin at 11:31 AM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by terrapin at 11:31 AM on November 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Where does it all end .. gamification to eventual simulation!
posted by OntMeta at 5:47 PM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by OntMeta at 5:47 PM on November 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
If you'd like to support Metafilter, bid on a signed copy of You've Been Played in the Metafilter auction! I'm happy to write a dedication and I can ship worldwide.
(and yes, auctions are a little bit like gamification – but this is for a good cause and everyone's going in with their eyes open!)
posted by adrianhon at 2:35 AM on November 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
(and yes, auctions are a little bit like gamification – but this is for a good cause and everyone's going in with their eyes open!)
posted by adrianhon at 2:35 AM on November 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
If our roads are dangerous, we don't train people to run across them faster – we build pedestrian crossings.
This comment must mean you do not live in the US. People in the US in neighborhoods literally break into a jog to cross the street and waive to cars 'thank you for not killing me'. Not on the freeway (where it's worse). In neighborhoods.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:00 AM on November 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
This comment must mean you do not live in the US. People in the US in neighborhoods literally break into a jog to cross the street and waive to cars 'thank you for not killing me'. Not on the freeway (where it's worse). In neighborhoods.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:00 AM on November 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Anne Helen Petersen interviews Adrian Hon
posted by mochapickle at 9:01 AM on November 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 9:01 AM on November 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
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