Hamas is losing. Good news from the Mideast

September 9, 2002 11:04 AM

Hamas is losing. Good news from the Mideast To all those who insist terror wars can't be won, some evidence you are pessimists.
posted by ParisParamus (47 comments total)

"It's more important than ever to show Israel that it can't stop Hamas," the magazine reports."

"political figures from the movement have been drafted in to plan terror attacks, Time reports"

So they've caused them to buckle down and become more efficient, wonderful.

Nobody ever said, Paris, that you couldn't kill a great number of terrorists. The point that has been made over and over is that killing them only breeds enmity, which fosters another generation of terrorists who have bigger chips on their shoulders. Nothing in your article proves this wrong, and as a matter of fact it looks like empirical evidence of it to me.
posted by Hildago at 11:20 AM on September 9, 2002

98 percent of the known members of the Hamas military wing have been arrested or killed over the past five months.

Some of them summarily assassinated, blown to bits by missiles fired from helicopters that sometimes miss and obliterate children; or are at other times right on target, taking down a whole apartment building in the process. This week alone, 13 civilians have already been killed in what the media keeps referring to as this period of "relative calm." Just minor setbacks on the glorious road to victory, eh?

The pessimism referred to in the FPP has more to do with Israel's inability to behave in a civilized manner.
posted by mapalm at 11:23 AM on September 9, 2002

*does good deed*
The Time Magazine article that Paris' link references.
*Leaves before it gets ugly*
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 11:24 AM on September 9, 2002

Killing off 98, or even 100% of the Hamas membership doesn't really help all that much. Most of their membership can be replaced fairly easily. As long as Palestinians want to join Hamas, and as long as the Arab states quietly back them, Israel hasn't really accomplished anything of permanent benefit.
posted by unreason at 11:28 AM on September 9, 2002

The report in the magazine, which quotes anonymous intelligence officials

Anonymous officials, quoted second in the major media outlet for the Israeli government...

Christ on a popsicle stick, this is too biased even for you, PP. Why don't you just go away and come back when you've got something besides the mouthpiece of the Mossad and the IDF to back up your needlessly and provocatively slanted front page posts...
posted by JollyWanker at 11:29 AM on September 9, 2002

Good news if your short-sighted. Unless the Israeli police state kills every single Palestinian, there will not be peace. Hamas is a manifestation of something systemic. Do you truly believe that there won't be other Palestinians to carry on what Hamas has started, whatever they end up calling themselves?

Zionism is racism. Israel is a police state. Put that in your bong and smoke it.
posted by riptide at 11:33 AM on September 9, 2002

Unless the Israeli police state kills every single Palestinian, there will not be peace.

They're working on it. You just wait


And, what hildago & mapalm said

squared
posted by matteo at 11:35 AM on September 9, 2002

Always pleasant to find such polite discourse at any posting about the Middle East. What might have been mentioned but was not because so many choose instead to be name callers is the fact that Hamas is losing out to growing strength of Hizzbola. See, not necessary to call people names and act like schoolyard kids.
posted by Postroad at 11:39 AM on September 9, 2002

"Violence and hatred cannot be removed with violence and hatred. Rather, this will make violence and hatred grow a thousand fold. Only understanding and compassion can dissolve violence and hatred."
posted by specialk420 at 11:46 AM on September 9, 2002

So Isreal finally gets around to destroying the terrorist organization that they helped create.

Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

posted by euphorb at 11:50 AM on September 9, 2002

cool, so now that the "terror war" is won, Israel will abide by international law and end the racist occupation? great! glad that's over!
posted by aLienated at 11:50 AM on September 9, 2002

"Violence and hatred cannot be removed with violence and hatred"

Nice truism, but you'll notice that the United States is now on very good terms with Germany, Japan and Russia. The terrorists are motivated by lies, propaganda and hatred, "tenets" which always crumble in the long run.

Nice to see so many appeasers still on Mefi.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:58 AM on September 9, 2002

"Violence and hatred cannot be removed with violence and hatred. Rather, this will make violence and hatred grow a thousand fold. Only understanding and compassion can dissolve violence and hatred."

Yeah, that worked great for Tibet.
posted by callmejay at 11:59 AM on September 9, 2002

Forgive my ignorance of history, I should research before I post; but instead I will babble on.

Are the "occupied territories" not lands that Israel captured during wars which were initiated by Arab forces.

If so, what is the historical precedence for the "ok,ok, you won the war, we shouldn't have attacked you; could we please have our land back now please?" line of reasoning?
posted by canucklehead at 12:04 PM on September 9, 2002

Apparently decrying richly funded racist theocracies makes us appeasers in PeePee's mind.
posted by donkeyschlong at 12:18 PM on September 9, 2002

I didn't see PP talk at all about the Saudi government, donkeyschlong....
posted by dwivian at 12:24 PM on September 9, 2002

indeed - a lame, biased and short-sighted FPP. I assume it was posted to get some sort of reaction. dull dull dull.
posted by gravelshoes at 12:35 PM on September 9, 2002

yo paris -

did we occupy germany, japan, or russia - and begin methodical ethnic cleansing of any of the aforementioned?

convince me why we should support a country that is the self proclaimed "only democracy in the region" except for those of differing religious beliefs ? annex the "occupied territories" and give them true 1 person - 1 vote democracy and ill happily post truisims in other threads.
posted by specialk420 at 12:40 PM on September 9, 2002

I didn't see PP talk at all about the Saudi government, donkeyschlong....

Israel and the House of Saud have more in common than either would like to admit. Both have powerful lobbies whose interests have time and again imperiled our citizens.
posted by donkeyschlong at 12:56 PM on September 9, 2002

I don't think it's a bad post, it's definitely a good thing that Hamas is losing its power-- they have been a disaster to Israelis and Palestinians alike. The problem, however, is that unless the Israelis are willing to couple their brutal military actions with concrete peace moves designed to get them out of the territories, the temporary 'peace' caused by destroying one resistance group will simply give rise to another.

Canucklehead, since World War II it has been generally established that civilized nations do not expand their territory through war. The Geneva Conventions are your legal version of this idea. The most relevant historical precedence is the Sinai peninsula, which was captured by Israel, settled, and then given back to the Egyptians during peace negotiations.

Paris, your only real problem is that you are unable to understand the reality of the occupation. It is not analagous to the Allies' occupations of Japan and Germany, but is far closer to South Africa under apartheid. Even in the most peaceful of years, with nary a suicide bomb in sight, Palestinians were murdered by occupation soldiers and settlers, had their private property seized and given to others, their crops destroyed, and their citizens arrested and held without charge. The 'occupation' is an attempt to depopulate the West Bank. True, it is being done under far more humane conditions than in Africa, other Middle Eastern countries, or in Central America, but the end result of severe injustice is the same. You really can't split hairs over the fact that if you are of one religion/race you have full rights, and if you are of another religion/race, you are subject to arbitrary state-sponsored terrorism. Ending this system, rather than destroying those who resist it, is the only sure path to peace, which is why people are right to be pessimistic about military victories while the fundamental racism lives on.
posted by cell divide at 12:58 PM on September 9, 2002

SpecialK, (Christian and Muslim) Arabs vote in Israel, too. The citizens, that is. And "ethnic cleansing" is a serious charge which should be made only when it's actually happening.
posted by callmejay at 12:58 PM on September 9, 2002

Zionism is racism.

I'm surprised no one's called this nonsense out yet. I'd love to hear how Zionism is any more inherently "racist" than Arab nationalism, riptide. It might be useful to read Chaim Herzog's 1975 reply to the UN about the charge:

Zionism is to the Jewish people what the liberation movements of Africa and Asia have been to their own people.

Me, I don't like nationalist movements in general, but while current right-wing Israeli policy clearly has strong and disgusting racist elements, there's nothing inherently racist about Jewish self-determination. If Herzog is too difficult to engage, try Justin Raimondo at antiwar.com:

Zionism was originally a tendency of the Left, a subset of the socialist movement inspired by Marx, the German Social Democracy, and the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party of Lenin's time. As such, it was egalitarian, internationalist, and its militants were convinced that with the onset of true socialism, all racial and religious strife would automatically disappear along with capitalism, the nuclear family, and bourgeois individualism. It was only later that the right-wing "revisionist" school, embodied by today's Likud party, arose amid the realities of the Zionist project.

He takes the essay more places than I would, but I think his main point -- similar to Herzog's -- is dead on:

So, is Zionism racism? If we are talking about the Zionism that is, then the answer is an emphatic yes. But Zionism per se – the idea that Jews, like all peoples, have the right to national and cultural self-determination – is certainly not inherently racist.

riptide: Israel is a police state.

Like, duh.

[And thanks a helluva lot, ParisParamus, for once again posting specifically to incite a poor discussion. This could have been a great exploratin of the various Palestinian terror groups and the best way to respond to them. Oh well.]
posted by mediareport at 1:21 PM on September 9, 2002

cell divide, I find your calm and well-reasoned comments to be annoyingly out of place in these rough-and-tumble times, and you run the risk of elevating this conversation a notch or two. Why can't you make sweeping, inflammatory generalizations like everyone else?
posted by mkultra at 1:40 PM on September 9, 2002

A good friend of mine recently pointed out that being Jewish is of a religious nature, not an ethnicity.
Why is Judaism the only religion that requires its own country?
He also pointed out that Israelis live in Israel. Being Jewish doesn't make you an Israeli. Interesting point of view from someone Jewish, though not practicing.
posted by a3matrix at 2:07 PM on September 9, 2002

a3, actually there's a law of return--where any jewish person in the world can move there and immediately(?) be given Israeli citizenship.

and I don't think judaism requires its own country at all, but it does exist now...
posted by amberglow at 2:21 PM on September 9, 2002

a3matrix- Your friend is misinformed. Judaism is as much a tribal identity as a theology. That's why Jewish law stipulates that "being Jewish" is something you inherit from your mother (if she's Jewish you are), like it or not. It's also largely why Judaism is not generally evangelical.

So, the notion of a "Jewish state" is not a requirement, but a reaction to (a) the diaspora which scattered the tribe across the globe and (b) the subsequent persecution wherever they wound up.

This is a gross simplification, but you get the idea.
posted by mkultra at 2:28 PM on September 9, 2002

"Violence and hatred cannot be removed with violence and hatred"
True enough, but doesn't that little truism apply to both sides? The bottom line is that the Palestinians are using terrorism to achieve their political ends and that is unacceptable. Whatever else the Israelis have done pales in comparison to the random murders committed by the Palestinians. I will concede the fact that the Israelis have needlessly provoked the Palestinians with their ugly settlement programs and the Israelis have committed some war crimes, but that does not and can not justify terrorism.

Please don't even start talking about racism. Are there any countries today that are more racist than your jew-hating Arab countries? Palestinian and Arabs in general live in military dictatorships with virtually none of the freedoms enjoyed in civil societies. Their leaders have long used the jews as a scapegoat to blind the people to the deficiencies of the government. I have supported few of the policies of W, but his calls for the terrorism to end and truly democratic elections to occur in Palestine are essentials to the peace process.
posted by monkeyman at 2:30 PM on September 9, 2002

And thanks a helluva lot, ParisParamus, for once again posting specifically to incite a poor discussion.

That's quite a charge. So, not only do I occasionally post a thread, but I have the power to make other posters post sub-par material. Flattering, but untrue.


I think people who think Israel cannot defeat/change its neighbors and their neighborhood give the forces of darkness way too much credit. As some columnist first wrote months ago, the vast majority of Palestinian Arabs don't really care about creating a Palestine; and certainly not about Jerusalem: they would must prefer living in New Jersey (I would add that they don't really care about and Islam either: it's just that that's all they know). I suspect that's true of most of the Arab world.

But of course, only a few Palestine will be welcome in New Jersey. So the best alternative: make the Middle East more like New Jersey. And New York and Michigan Which first requires getting rid of the terrorists and thugs. And doing it fast and thoroughly enough for something more New Jersey-like to arise.

Basically, Israel isn't waging a counter-war. Its being the Palestinian's policeman. Rounding up, taking out, and throwing out the thugs; kind of like what Jordan has done.

Remember: it's not yet Paramus(NJ), but even the South Bronx is having a Renaissance...

So let's all, including Palestinian Arabs of good will, be thankfully for the IDF. Amen.
posted by ParisParamus at 2:37 PM on September 9, 2002

forces of darkness?
rounding up the thugs?
thankfully (sic) for the IDF?

Who is this this guy?

In the immortal words of Mrs. Krabapple..."Ha!"
posted by mapalm at 2:42 PM on September 9, 2002

As some columnist first wrote months ago, the vast majority of Palestinian Arabs don't really care about creating a Palestine; and certainly not about Jerusalem: they would must prefer living in New Jersey (I would add that they don't really care about and Islam either: it's just that that's all they know). I suspect that's true of most of the Arab world.

Well, as long as we're not merely speaking in gross generalizations and unsupported conjecture.
posted by dreadmuffin at 2:44 PM on September 9, 2002

"But the settlers don’t want negotiations. Many want the Arabs gone altogether, removed by force if necessary. They call it transfer. " - ok - ethnic cleansing is a little too strong - instead: "transfer". Isuggest is be called what it is: wrong.
posted by specialk420 at 3:00 PM on September 9, 2002

Basically, Israel isn't waging a counter-war. Its being the Palestinian's policeman. Rounding up, taking out, and throwing out the thugs...

...And their neighbors and family members.
posted by trox at 3:03 PM on September 9, 2002

specialk420: the settlers are a red herring. The vast majority would be gone if the Palestinians weren't acting like such f'ing savages. They'll be gone eventually.
posted by ParisParamus at 3:05 PM on September 9, 2002

apologies for the bad grammar on that last post. i beg to differ - the fast rate of growth in the "settlements" was during the perior of relative calm prior to the latest intifada - check the facts.
posted by specialk420 at 3:12 PM on September 9, 2002

The vast majority would be gone if the Palestinians weren't acting like such f'ing savages.

I see, so its either:

a) "Honey, the Palestinians are acting like such f'ing savages - let's go live near them and put our family in mortal danger!"

b) "Honey, the Palestinians are being so nice now - let's go as far away from them as we can!"

Nope. I don't buy it.
posted by laz-e-boy at 3:45 PM on September 9, 2002

I'm with laz-e ... you're not making much sense, PeePee.
posted by donkeyschlong at 3:49 PM on September 9, 2002

the settlers are a red herring. The vast majority would be gone if the Palestinians weren't acting like such f'ing savages.

Obviously, then, it's the f'ing Palestinians who are behind the missions of Israeli rabbis, who trawl around Africa looking for bargain-bucket converts to be shipped off to the settlements.
posted by riviera at 3:52 PM on September 9, 2002

I do trust you, but I'd love to see a link on that one (I suspect Gogling for "Bargain-Bucket converts" won't help).
posted by Grangousier at 3:59 PM on September 9, 2002

So, not only do I occasionally post a thread, but I have the power to make other posters post sub-par material. Flattering, but untrue.

Until you freaking grow up, Paris, and stop inserting outrageously polarizing spin in your front page posts (hint: save your sophomoric spin for inside), you're not worth the time of day. I'll be happy to discuss this further in MeTa, if you have the balls.
posted by mediareport at 4:03 PM on September 9, 2002

Grangousier, you might find this article of interest. It's about a group of Peruvian Indians who nobody really considered "Jewish" until the idea to use them to populate West Bank settlements came up. Now they are ensconsed on "disputed" land learning Hebrew and praying.
posted by cell divide at 4:08 PM on September 9, 2002

"I do trust you, but I'd love to see a link on that one (I suspect Gogling for "Bargain-Bucket converts" won't help)."

Yes, I agree. Trust ... but verify.
posted by JKevinKing at 4:14 PM on September 9, 2002

a) "Honey, the Palestinians are acting like such f'ing savages - let's go live near them and put our family in mortal danger!"

Your response discounts the possibility that there are, indeed Jewish wackos, e.g., those living in Gaza, and some dupes, living in the Territories, deep in (to the extent there is a "deep" in such a tiny place), who should not be there. Divine right is not a basis for settling land, and I have as little patience with the ultra-orthodox (be they settlers or not), as I do with Palestinian Arabs claiming Jerusalem was stollen from them--bullshit. When the chief obstacle to peace in the territories is the settlers living nowhere near Israel, they will be evicted (just as Ariel Sharon did to settlers in the Sinai as it was being turned over to Egypt).

Actually, if I had my way, as an act of good faith, I would send most of the settlers packing tomorrow. But, even if that doesn't happen, the settlers are not now the critical obstacle to peace. They are a side-show. First things first. Thats how politics works.

As for your invitation, Mediareport, you can e-mail me, but I don't see the point of starting another forum for the anti-Israel crowd to attack me. Or the anything-witty-expressing-a-position-I-disagree-with-is necessarily-superficial-crap crowd.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:27 PM on September 9, 2002

the settlers are not now the critical obstacle to peace. They are a side-show. First things first. Thats how politics works

Funny how neither Colin Powell ("...the United States has made it clear that the occupation is a problem, settlements are a problem"), George Bush ("Israeli settlement activity in the occupied territories must stop") nor U.S. ambassador to Israel Daniel Kurtzer (scroll down: "Our opposition to the settlements is political...It is a fact that we have opposed the settlements for decades") agree with you.

There are two arrows driving the cycle, ParisParamus. Israel has been slowly, inexorably taking more and more Palestinian land. Attacking civilians inside Israel is both evil and stupid on the part of Palestinian terrorists, but it sure is easy for me to say that from here. I'm not being forced to take detours while watching my cropland being taken to build new access roads for settlers.
posted by mediareport at 8:48 PM on September 9, 2002

I don't see the point of starting another forum for the anti-Israel crowd to attack me.

Then why do you bait them so obviously? Have you thought about engaging the more thoughtful members of that "crowd" in discussion without the inflammatory spin? If you have a response to my suggestion that pointed opinions belong in comments rather than front page posts--especially when it comes to hot-button threads--feel free to email me and I'll be happy to respond.
posted by mediareport at 8:52 PM on September 9, 2002

Mediareport: you have a point. I'll try. Original sins are not important after some point.
posted by ParisParamus at 9:21 PM on September 9, 2002

i dream of living in new jersey......................thanks paris.
posted by sgt.serenity at 6:01 AM on September 10, 2002

Mediareport: you have a point. I'll try.

*plotzes*
posted by mediareport at 7:02 AM on September 10, 2002