September 11, 2002
10:56 AM Subscribe
When Nelson Mandela says the US are a threat to world peace, does that make us think?
This post was deleted for the following reason:
yeah, it makes us think Neslon Mandela is afraid of Islamic extremists. It's very easy to denounce a country that you know will not sponsor an assassination attempt on you.
"Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody mentions that." I can't seem to recall the last time the Israeli government gassed a million or so of it's own citizens either.
posted by pallid at 11:10 AM on September 11, 2002
"Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody mentions that." I can't seem to recall the last time the Israeli government gassed a million or so of it's own citizens either.
posted by pallid at 11:10 AM on September 11, 2002
I didn't know that Cheney had opposed Mandela's release. Knowing that, "dinosaur" seems to be a very kind term.
posted by goethean at 11:12 AM on September 11, 2002
posted by goethean at 11:12 AM on September 11, 2002
I agree with him.
I think it's fairly obvious.
We are one of the most aggressive nations around. We flaunt our power.
And tell me, Steve, why it makes you think that?
posted by Espoo2 at 11:15 AM on September 11, 2002
I think it's fairly obvious.
We are one of the most aggressive nations around. We flaunt our power.
And tell me, Steve, why it makes you think that?
posted by Espoo2 at 11:15 AM on September 11, 2002
From the article:
"He said that no evidence had been presented to support the claim that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction, while former UN weapons inspector in Baghdad Scott Ritter has said there is no such evidence."
We know that Saddam WAS trying to develop WMDs and then stopped letting us see what he is now doing. Hmm.
posted by callmejay at 11:16 AM on September 11, 2002
"He said that no evidence had been presented to support the claim that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction, while former UN weapons inspector in Baghdad Scott Ritter has said there is no such evidence."
We know that Saddam WAS trying to develop WMDs and then stopped letting us see what he is now doing. Hmm.
posted by callmejay at 11:16 AM on September 11, 2002
Also interesting is the claim that he thinks we're scared that a resolution wouldn't pass the U.N. Security Council. Is there precedent for the U.N. bringing forth a preemptive resolution telling the U.S. to back off?
Gothean: Cheney was one of only two congressmen to vote against a resolution callig for Mandela's release.
posted by tellmenow at 11:19 AM on September 11, 2002
Gothean: Cheney was one of only two congressmen to vote against a resolution callig for Mandela's release.
posted by tellmenow at 11:19 AM on September 11, 2002
little more research, apparently not as black and white: By no means were Mandela or the ANC universally viewed as ``terrorists,'' evidenced by the fact that the vote on the resolution was 245-177 in favor, but still shy of the two-thirds needed to override President Ronald Reagan's veto.
posted by tellmenow at 11:23 AM on September 11, 2002
posted by tellmenow at 11:23 AM on September 11, 2002
Cheney was one of only two congressmen to vote against a resolution callig for Mandela's release.
Who was the other one?
posted by mikrophon at 11:23 AM on September 11, 2002
Who was the other one?
posted by mikrophon at 11:23 AM on September 11, 2002
When big actors get involved with politics, like Alec Baldwin and Charlton Heston, they lose a little of their magic, a little of their other-worldly majesty. Nelson Mandela, famous more for his ordeal and symbolism than his statesmanship, just did the same thing.
posted by gsteff at 11:24 AM on September 11, 2002
posted by gsteff at 11:24 AM on September 11, 2002
We know that Saddam WAS trying to develop WMDs and then stopped letting us see what he is now doing. Hmm.
But that had nothing to do with US cruise missile strikes in 98. Nah, of course not.
posted by dogmatic at 11:24 AM on September 11, 2002
But that had nothing to do with US cruise missile strikes in 98. Nah, of course not.
posted by dogmatic at 11:24 AM on September 11, 2002
It makes us think that you haven't bothered to read any of the front page posts for the last half-day.
posted by eas98 at 11:32 AM on September 11, 2002
posted by eas98 at 11:32 AM on September 11, 2002
gsteff: My respect for Mandela remains high - I respect him for using the position he has to express widely held views. You may think that he is "famous more for his ordeal and symbolism than his statesmanship, but I would suggest that you are out of touch with a huge majority of the world. Likening him to Alec Baldwin and Charlton Heston is ridiculous.
Why is it that some people feel that they have to attack the person, rather than debate the argument. Maybe it's because they have no answer.
posted by daveg at 11:44 AM on September 11, 2002
Why is it that some people feel that they have to attack the person, rather than debate the argument. Maybe it's because they have no answer.
posted by daveg at 11:44 AM on September 11, 2002
Nelson Mandela, famous more for his ordeal and symbolism than his statesmanship
In the eyes of those who maybe don't pay enough attention to what goes on in the world.
On the other hand...
posted by i_cola at 11:45 AM on September 11, 2002
In the eyes of those who maybe don't pay enough attention to what goes on in the world.
On the other hand...
posted by i_cola at 11:45 AM on September 11, 2002
Nelson Mandela, famous more for his ordeal and symbolism than his statesmanship, just did the same thing.
well said gsteff.
Well said? Maybe. Profoundly ignorant? Absolutely. Placing Mandela in the same class as Baldwin and Heston is just ridiculous, as if he were simply a celebrity rather than a leader who showed uncommon courage and forgiveness. And by what bizarre standard might you possibly say that Mandela is less of a statesman than, say, George W. Bush or Dick Cheney?
posted by Ty Webb at 11:46 AM on September 11, 2002
well said gsteff.
Well said? Maybe. Profoundly ignorant? Absolutely. Placing Mandela in the same class as Baldwin and Heston is just ridiculous, as if he were simply a celebrity rather than a leader who showed uncommon courage and forgiveness. And by what bizarre standard might you possibly say that Mandela is less of a statesman than, say, George W. Bush or Dick Cheney?
posted by Ty Webb at 11:46 AM on September 11, 2002
Same story on MSNBC, with less edited out:
Tom Masland:
What about the argument that’s being made about the threat of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction and Saddam’s efforts to build a nuclear weapons. After all, he has invaded other countries, he has fired missiles at Israel. On Thursday, President Bush is going to stand up in front of the United Nations and point to what he says is evidence of...
Nelson Mandela:
…Scott Ritter, a former United Nations arms inspector who is in Baghdad, has said that there is no evidence whatsoever of [development of weapons of] mass destruction. Neither Bush nor [British Prime Minister] Tony Blair has provided any evidence that such weapons exist. But what we know is that Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody talks about that. Edited out in BBC Story: Why should there be one standard for one country, especially because it is black, and another one for another country, Israel, that is white.
Tom Masland:
So you see this as a racial question?
Nelson Mandela:
Well, that element is there. In fact, many people say quietly, but they don’t have the courage to stand up and say publicly, that when there were white secretary generals you didn’t find this question of the United States and Britain going out of the United Nations. But now that you’ve had black secretary generals like Boutros Boutros Ghali, like Kofi Annan, they do not respect the United Nations. They have contempt for it. This is not my view, but that is what is being said by many people.
Okay Nelson, play the race card. Maybe you and Rev Al Sharpton can get together.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 11:49 AM on September 11, 2002
Tom Masland:
What about the argument that’s being made about the threat of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction and Saddam’s efforts to build a nuclear weapons. After all, he has invaded other countries, he has fired missiles at Israel. On Thursday, President Bush is going to stand up in front of the United Nations and point to what he says is evidence of...
Nelson Mandela:
…Scott Ritter, a former United Nations arms inspector who is in Baghdad, has said that there is no evidence whatsoever of [development of weapons of] mass destruction. Neither Bush nor [British Prime Minister] Tony Blair has provided any evidence that such weapons exist. But what we know is that Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Nobody talks about that. Edited out in BBC Story: Why should there be one standard for one country, especially because it is black, and another one for another country, Israel, that is white.
Tom Masland:
So you see this as a racial question?
Nelson Mandela:
Well, that element is there. In fact, many people say quietly, but they don’t have the courage to stand up and say publicly, that when there were white secretary generals you didn’t find this question of the United States and Britain going out of the United Nations. But now that you’ve had black secretary generals like Boutros Boutros Ghali, like Kofi Annan, they do not respect the United Nations. They have contempt for it. This is not my view, but that is what is being said by many people.
Okay Nelson, play the race card. Maybe you and Rev Al Sharpton can get together.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 11:49 AM on September 11, 2002
I keep hearing this "Cheney voted against freeing Mandela" meme. So I looked it up.
Here's what I found:
" * Cheney Voted against Resolution Calling for Nelson Mandela's Freedom. In 1986, Cheney voted against a resolution expressing the sense of the House that the President should urge the South African government to engage in political negotiations with the country's black majority, grant immediate and unconditional release to Nelson Mandela and other political prisoners, and recognize the African National Congress (ANC) as a legitimate representative for the black majority. Motion rejected 245-177. [1986 CQ Almanac, p. 86-H, vote #304]
* First, Cheney Distorted Mandela Vote. When first questioned about his vote against releasing Nelson Mandela from prison, Cheney said he voted against the measure because it would have imposed economic sanctions on South Africa. According to the Washington Post, "Mr. Cheney's response was that he had been opposed to the imposition of economic sanctions on South Africa. But the resolution made no mention of such sanctions." [Washington Post, 7/28/00]
* Now Cheney Claims He Supported Mandela's
Release All Along. In an interview on July 30, 2000, Cheney was asked about his vote in opposition to releasing Nelson Mandela from prison. Cheney answered, "Well, certainly I would have loved to have Nelson Mandela released. I don't know anybody who was for keeping him in prison. Again, this was a resolution of the U.S. Congress, so it wasn't as though if we passed it, he was going to be let out of prison." [NBC, "Meet the Press," 7/30/00]"
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:50 AM on September 11, 2002
Here's what I found:
" * Cheney Voted against Resolution Calling for Nelson Mandela's Freedom. In 1986, Cheney voted against a resolution expressing the sense of the House that the President should urge the South African government to engage in political negotiations with the country's black majority, grant immediate and unconditional release to Nelson Mandela and other political prisoners, and recognize the African National Congress (ANC) as a legitimate representative for the black majority. Motion rejected 245-177. [1986 CQ Almanac, p. 86-H, vote #304]
* First, Cheney Distorted Mandela Vote. When first questioned about his vote against releasing Nelson Mandela from prison, Cheney said he voted against the measure because it would have imposed economic sanctions on South Africa. According to the Washington Post, "Mr. Cheney's response was that he had been opposed to the imposition of economic sanctions on South Africa. But the resolution made no mention of such sanctions." [Washington Post, 7/28/00]
* Now Cheney Claims He Supported Mandela's
Release All Along. In an interview on July 30, 2000, Cheney was asked about his vote in opposition to releasing Nelson Mandela from prison. Cheney answered, "Well, certainly I would have loved to have Nelson Mandela released. I don't know anybody who was for keeping him in prison. Again, this was a resolution of the U.S. Congress, so it wasn't as though if we passed it, he was going to be let out of prison." [NBC, "Meet the Press," 7/30/00]"
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:50 AM on September 11, 2002
Knowing that, "dinosaur" seems to be a very kind term.
We were thinking the same thing. "Dinosaur" seems such a generous spin on ol' Blue Tongue Cheney.
posted by rocketman at 11:53 AM on September 11, 2002
We were thinking the same thing. "Dinosaur" seems such a generous spin on ol' Blue Tongue Cheney.
posted by rocketman at 11:53 AM on September 11, 2002
So, every time one suggests that racism may be a factor one is just "playing the race card" and everything said after that fact should be discredited? Again, as daveg says, can't we just debate the argument on its own merits?
posted by UnReality at 11:55 AM on September 11, 2002
posted by UnReality at 11:55 AM on September 11, 2002
damn you evil boxes!
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 11:56 AM on September 11, 2002
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 11:56 AM on September 11, 2002
Ok, for the record, the similarity I am pointing out between actors and Mandela is the way most people, without knowing much about them, consider them superhuman. Mandela is a fantastic example of how one man, with morality on his side, can move mountains.
He is not a statesman.
When Time magazine profiled him for their "100 Leaders and Revolutionaries" compilation in 2000, there wasn't a single mention in the piece of any accomplishment of his after 1994, when he was elected president. In fact, piece opens with a quote from a BBC commentator: "Perhaps the most generally admired figure of our age, [Mandela] falls short of the giants of the past."
Mandela led the movement against apartheid, and was, ultimately, fantastically succesful, and thank God he was. The war on terrorism is out of his ken, just as global warming is out of Alec Baldwin's ken.
posted by gsteff at 11:59 AM on September 11, 2002
He is not a statesman.
When Time magazine profiled him for their "100 Leaders and Revolutionaries" compilation in 2000, there wasn't a single mention in the piece of any accomplishment of his after 1994, when he was elected president. In fact, piece opens with a quote from a BBC commentator: "Perhaps the most generally admired figure of our age, [Mandela] falls short of the giants of the past."
Mandela led the movement against apartheid, and was, ultimately, fantastically succesful, and thank God he was. The war on terrorism is out of his ken, just as global warming is out of Alec Baldwin's ken.
posted by gsteff at 11:59 AM on September 11, 2002
When big actors get involved with politics, like Alec Baldwin and Charlton Heston, they lose a little of their magic, a little of their other-worldly majesty. Nelson Mandela, famous more for his ordeal and symbolism than his statesmanship, just did the same thing.
Yeah, heaven forbid that public figures get involved in influencing the world. Oh come on people, if all the sound bites & speeches were left to the current politicians we'd have no one to admire because they be such watered-down-pablum-being-careful-not-to-offend-anyone-who-might-elect-me.
Why shouldn't Nelson Mandela, Sting, Mel Gibson, Jimmy Carter, Michael Jordan, etc get to talk politics? The only difference between us and them is that they get real airtime instead of looking for Web fame.
Here Nelson, let's not ruin the mystique of your struggle by getting into a war of words. Have a seat. Are you thirsty? How 'bout a nice big cup of shut the fuck up?
posted by damclean2 at 12:00 PM on September 11, 2002
Yeah, heaven forbid that public figures get involved in influencing the world. Oh come on people, if all the sound bites & speeches were left to the current politicians we'd have no one to admire because they be such watered-down-pablum-being-careful-not-to-offend-anyone-who-might-elect-me.
Why shouldn't Nelson Mandela, Sting, Mel Gibson, Jimmy Carter, Michael Jordan, etc get to talk politics? The only difference between us and them is that they get real airtime instead of looking for Web fame.
Here Nelson, let's not ruin the mystique of your struggle by getting into a war of words. Have a seat. Are you thirsty? How 'bout a nice big cup of shut the fuck up?
posted by damclean2 at 12:00 PM on September 11, 2002
And Ty Webb, please don't bring Bush and Cheney up, they have nothing to do with your criticisms. I consider that a cheap shot.
posted by gsteff at 12:02 PM on September 11, 2002
posted by gsteff at 12:02 PM on September 11, 2002
can't we just debate the argument on its own merits?
Exactly, so why bring race into a situation that it has no bearing. What Neslon Mandela is saying is that the United States is going after SH because they aren't white and they have Nukes. It's okay for whites to have nukes and biowarefare, but not darker skinned people. What a load of shit that is. Then he says that the US is blowing off the the UN because it has a black secretary general.
"Hi, my name is Nelson Mandela, and I really don't have any facts or proof other wise, so I am just going to play the race card to distract people."
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 12:05 PM on September 11, 2002
Exactly, so why bring race into a situation that it has no bearing. What Neslon Mandela is saying is that the United States is going after SH because they aren't white and they have Nukes. It's okay for whites to have nukes and biowarefare, but not darker skinned people. What a load of shit that is. Then he says that the US is blowing off the the UN because it has a black secretary general.
"Hi, my name is Nelson Mandela, and I really don't have any facts or proof other wise, so I am just going to play the race card to distract people."
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 12:05 PM on September 11, 2002
« Older Earth has a third satellite? | Mooks and Midriffs Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 11:00 AM on September 11, 2002