What do I do if I don't like a book at the library?
May 24, 2023 5:32 AM Subscribe
I do, to this day, however, wish that I'd complained about a book at a public library in Australia in the 1990s
about Urinary Tract Infections for women (published in Britain)
that claimed that bisexual men cheat, and that if a woman gets frequent UTIs, she should suspect her male partner of being
a) bisexual; and
b) cheating on her.
The book was factually incorrect AND biphobic.
I wanted to say something to the librarian at the time, but I was too intimidated.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:54 AM on May 24, 2023 [22 favorites]
about Urinary Tract Infections for women (published in Britain)
that claimed that bisexual men cheat, and that if a woman gets frequent UTIs, she should suspect her male partner of being
a) bisexual; and
b) cheating on her.
The book was factually incorrect AND biphobic.
I wanted to say something to the librarian at the time, but I was too intimidated.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:54 AM on May 24, 2023 [22 favorites]
From the article comments:
"How on Earth does the description of Jezebel's donkey predilection in Ezekiel 23:20 not lead to a Bible ban?"
...and about 100 other places where that book doesn't pass muster from these book banning cretins.
posted by mcstayinskool at 5:56 AM on May 24, 2023 [16 favorites]
"How on Earth does the description of Jezebel's donkey predilection in Ezekiel 23:20 not lead to a Bible ban?"
...and about 100 other places where that book doesn't pass muster from these book banning cretins.
posted by mcstayinskool at 5:56 AM on May 24, 2023 [16 favorites]
I've noticed that in every generation there's a panic about something that's a supposed threat to innocent children, whether it was desegregation in the '50s or the satanic panic in the '90s or the trans panic today or the many many panics between those ones.
This makes me think that there are always parents who are terrified about their kids to the point that they are willing to buy anything that a fearmonger is selling, no matter how much bullshit and harm to others it contains.
posted by clawsoon at 6:04 AM on May 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
This makes me think that there are always parents who are terrified about their kids to the point that they are willing to buy anything that a fearmonger is selling, no matter how much bullshit and harm to others it contains.
posted by clawsoon at 6:04 AM on May 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
I used to be a teacher (not a particularly good one) and there was a display for Columbus Day in the library at the elementary school at which I was doing my student teaching. There were a bunch of books of varying quality but a few of them, particularly some older books, were...really really gross and problematic and not something I'd want elementary school students to read probably at all and certainly not without guidance from an adult (I'd feel differently about, say, high school students reading these books in a class with an eye towards criticizing and dissecting them and the absolutely appalling racism). It was a fascinating moment for me because I've always been the sort of person who supports books and learning and finds the idea of banning books anathema, so encountering books I actually did think should be removed from a library display and possibly the library itself was a really odd experience.
With that in mind, in recent years I have had to confront the fact that I am not a free-speech absolutist, something that was a core belief for many years of my life. I think it's easy to say "but it's a slippery slope, if you are willing to limit access to racist books for being racist people will ban queer books for being queer" which ignores that the latter is already happening and I don't think anything we can do will change the behavior of virulent racists/sexists/trans- and homophobes/generally terrible people so we have to decide whether the principle we support is free speech or preventing certain types of harm, we can't always do both. This may not be a popular view in a lot of liberal spaces and possibly I'll get a lot of pushback for this but I think it can be okay to say "this is not an appropriate book for this age group and should not be in an elementary school library" because some content actually is gross and bad, and I have been surprised to find myself believing this but I don't think it's always as simple as "check out a different book".
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:06 AM on May 24, 2023 [38 favorites]
With that in mind, in recent years I have had to confront the fact that I am not a free-speech absolutist, something that was a core belief for many years of my life. I think it's easy to say "but it's a slippery slope, if you are willing to limit access to racist books for being racist people will ban queer books for being queer" which ignores that the latter is already happening and I don't think anything we can do will change the behavior of virulent racists/sexists/trans- and homophobes/generally terrible people so we have to decide whether the principle we support is free speech or preventing certain types of harm, we can't always do both. This may not be a popular view in a lot of liberal spaces and possibly I'll get a lot of pushback for this but I think it can be okay to say "this is not an appropriate book for this age group and should not be in an elementary school library" because some content actually is gross and bad, and I have been surprised to find myself believing this but I don't think it's always as simple as "check out a different book".
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:06 AM on May 24, 2023 [38 favorites]
Having posted that I am feeling really anxious that I'll get some vitriol so I was to say that I am a transgender leftist, I don't support banning books with queer content or themes of racial and social justice or anything, and I am hopeful people will understand what I'm trying to express and not just read it as "I think book banning is good, actually" or something like that; I appreciate anyone acting in good faith who is willing to have this conversation even if they disagree with me. Thank you!
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:11 AM on May 24, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:11 AM on May 24, 2023 [26 favorites]
That why libraries get curated, which is not the same as rando bigot book bans.
posted by Artw at 6:12 AM on May 24, 2023 [50 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:12 AM on May 24, 2023 [50 favorites]
Yes, it's called "collection development" and it includes removing materials (weeding) for all sorts of reasons. There's this weird idea that libraries just... buy all the books, and that isn't true. They should be purchasing books that fit what the users of the library want, and weeding material that is out-of-date, inaccurate, etc.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:17 AM on May 24, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 6:17 AM on May 24, 2023 [36 favorites]
Yeah, my first reaction to this is obviously "hell yeah!," but I think one of the pernicious things about these ridiculous campaigns is that it undercuts what should be a conversation about library content. Libraries have limited space and resources, and constant curation of collections is happening. Community feedback into that process is reasonable and desirable, when it's not being weaponized.
Comedian Amber Ruffin has an anecdote about bringing home an old craft ideas book from the library that included an old racist craft and her mother's reaction to that. Not a situation where I think it's unreasonable to ask that book be removed from the collection.
posted by the primroses were over at 6:17 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Comedian Amber Ruffin has an anecdote about bringing home an old craft ideas book from the library that included an old racist craft and her mother's reaction to that. Not a situation where I think it's unreasonable to ask that book be removed from the collection.
posted by the primroses were over at 6:17 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think it can be okay to say "this is not an appropriate book for this age group and should not be in an elementary school library" because some content actually is gross and bad, and I have been surprised to find myself believing this but I don't think it's always as simple as "check out a different book".
The Paradox of Tolerance, made famous by Karl Popper, states that a tolerant society will have its tolerance weaponized against it, and therefore must be intolerant of intolerance.
"Check out a different book" isn't aimed at my seven-year-old who wouldn't be able to understand why it's (formerly) okay for Nancy Drew to have straight-up racist shit about her specific ethnic background. It's aimed at the person who claims that it's just as bad for my kid to be exposed to the idea that some kids have two daddies or parents with different skin colors.
posted by Etrigan at 6:20 AM on May 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
The Paradox of Tolerance, made famous by Karl Popper, states that a tolerant society will have its tolerance weaponized against it, and therefore must be intolerant of intolerance.
"Check out a different book" isn't aimed at my seven-year-old who wouldn't be able to understand why it's (formerly) okay for Nancy Drew to have straight-up racist shit about her specific ethnic background. It's aimed at the person who claims that it's just as bad for my kid to be exposed to the idea that some kids have two daddies or parents with different skin colors.
posted by Etrigan at 6:20 AM on May 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
I know about culling and I know about the paradox of tolerance, my point is just "I don't think all books belong in all libraries and that has caused cognitive dissonance for me and led to me challenging some beliefs I previously held dear" and I was hoping to be able to have a conversation that included some discussion of that kind of tension but now I just regret having said anything, I'll stop posting in this thread.
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:29 AM on May 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:29 AM on May 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
If it helps, have a long rambly rant I wrote a couple years back for my library-school students on the topics of neutrality, intellectual freedom, and censorship.
For what it's worth, an octopus IRL, I am a librarian and I train future librarians, and I agree with you. Not all books belong in all libraries. The trick is having a principled, structured, defensible process for deciding which books belong in a given library.
posted by humbug at 6:35 AM on May 24, 2023 [39 favorites]
For what it's worth, an octopus IRL, I am a librarian and I train future librarians, and I agree with you. Not all books belong in all libraries. The trick is having a principled, structured, defensible process for deciding which books belong in a given library.
posted by humbug at 6:35 AM on May 24, 2023 [39 favorites]
I appreciate the point that you're making, an octopus IRL, and it's a discussion that I also have complicated feelings about. I remember learning that one of the biggest book burnings in history happened after World War Two, when the Allies destroyed millions of pro-Nazi, pro-militarist books and documents in Germany.
How do I feel about that, given that I was taught that book burning was one of the bad things that Nazis did that free people like us should never do?
Well... given the effect it had on Nazism in Germany, I guess... it was a good idea?
posted by clawsoon at 6:42 AM on May 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
How do I feel about that, given that I was taught that book burning was one of the bad things that Nazis did that free people like us should never do?
Well... given the effect it had on Nazism in Germany, I guess... it was a good idea?
posted by clawsoon at 6:42 AM on May 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
I for one knew what you were getting at, Octopus. And I think that it leads the mind down interesting paths as a possible explanation for "why are Moms for Liberty getting such traction on getting 'Heather has Two Mommies' banned but 'Why Columbus was So Fantastic' is still sitting there".
I'm similarly a free-speech person, but I also agree that there are some things that are all "yeah, uh...no, this particular book isn't great." And I think that that uneasiness about "I want this out of the library, but yikes, I'm a free speech person...." stops us from raising a complaint about those books in the first place.
So when you have people like us on one side, who think about complaining about "Why Columbus Was So Fantastic" but then have second thoughts and don't, and you have Moms for Liberty on the other side who have no problem complaining about "Heather Has Two Mommies", well....the library in question only gets the complaint about "Heather Has Two Mommies".
But it's also not just that. The thing that's really insidious about Moms For Liberty isn't just that they make complaints. It's that they are absolutely god-damn relentless about it. They organize these kinds of complaints. They get their members in the various chapters to go see if they can find a given book and get people to overwhelm libraries with complaints about it, so the library isn't getting just one polite request - they're getting dozens of angry screaming people. And it's even worse - some members look up librarians' home addresses and social media profiles and start flinging mud there as well. I've even heard of some members finding where librarians' kids go to school and start making anonymous veiled threats.
And by contrast, we are letting our very understandable and real hesitation about censorship stop us from doing a thing we absolutely could and should be doing. I mean, consider: if you saw that your local library had a copy of Mein Kampf or The Protocols of the Elders of Zion sitting out as part of a book display, you'd say something to someone, yeah? And you'd probably have no problem doing so, yeah? And - most crucially - if your library put the book through a review process and came back and said that instead of removing it, they were going to restrict it (like, a kid would have to have a permission slip or prove that they were using it for some specific project); you'd probably be like "still not too thrilled with that but I'll accept it". Right?
Libraries do indeed have a process for reviewing a book and deciding whether it should be in a library, and the freedom of speech is why - and Moms for Liberty are running roughshod over it and making it personal, and that is what is giving them the advantage. They're not just making polite requests for a review - like we could be doing - they are fighting super dirty.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:47 AM on May 24, 2023 [24 favorites]
I'm similarly a free-speech person, but I also agree that there are some things that are all "yeah, uh...no, this particular book isn't great." And I think that that uneasiness about "I want this out of the library, but yikes, I'm a free speech person...." stops us from raising a complaint about those books in the first place.
So when you have people like us on one side, who think about complaining about "Why Columbus Was So Fantastic" but then have second thoughts and don't, and you have Moms for Liberty on the other side who have no problem complaining about "Heather Has Two Mommies", well....the library in question only gets the complaint about "Heather Has Two Mommies".
But it's also not just that. The thing that's really insidious about Moms For Liberty isn't just that they make complaints. It's that they are absolutely god-damn relentless about it. They organize these kinds of complaints. They get their members in the various chapters to go see if they can find a given book and get people to overwhelm libraries with complaints about it, so the library isn't getting just one polite request - they're getting dozens of angry screaming people. And it's even worse - some members look up librarians' home addresses and social media profiles and start flinging mud there as well. I've even heard of some members finding where librarians' kids go to school and start making anonymous veiled threats.
And by contrast, we are letting our very understandable and real hesitation about censorship stop us from doing a thing we absolutely could and should be doing. I mean, consider: if you saw that your local library had a copy of Mein Kampf or The Protocols of the Elders of Zion sitting out as part of a book display, you'd say something to someone, yeah? And you'd probably have no problem doing so, yeah? And - most crucially - if your library put the book through a review process and came back and said that instead of removing it, they were going to restrict it (like, a kid would have to have a permission slip or prove that they were using it for some specific project); you'd probably be like "still not too thrilled with that but I'll accept it". Right?
Libraries do indeed have a process for reviewing a book and deciding whether it should be in a library, and the freedom of speech is why - and Moms for Liberty are running roughshod over it and making it personal, and that is what is giving them the advantage. They're not just making polite requests for a review - like we could be doing - they are fighting super dirty.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:47 AM on May 24, 2023 [24 favorites]
Sorry, popping in one final time to say I think I was being overly sensitive for reasons that have nothing to do with this thread and there's a lot to say here outside of my feelings, apologies and I'm leaving for real now. Thank you!
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:48 AM on May 24, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:48 AM on May 24, 2023 [14 favorites]
My high school library *did* have Mein Kampf, and I read it out of idle curiosity-- it didn't seem surprising or interesting. This was in the 60s.
Not on display, just on the shelf.
As a general thing, I do have some concern for people to see how the past actually was (or at least what was in writing) rather than a general sense of "the past was bad".
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:56 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Not on display, just on the shelf.
As a general thing, I do have some concern for people to see how the past actually was (or at least what was in writing) rather than a general sense of "the past was bad".
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:56 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Just posting to support An Octopus's conflicted feelings. Had same experience seeing an anti-vax book prominently displayed at our local library and wondering if I should just leave it or say something.
posted by johngoren at 7:02 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by johngoren at 7:02 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
As a general thing, I do have some concern for people to see how the past actually was (or at least what was in writing) rather than a general sense of "the past was bad".
Agreed. That's best accomplished, however, with some teachers or other resources to provide context, and with sensitivity to the maturity level of the child in question.
What I mean is: there's a difference between a bored 11-year-old finding a copy of Mein Kampf sitting in their local library and innocently taking it home to read for the heck of it, and a 17-year-old getting a couple of passages as assigned reading as part of a college-prep-level "20th Century European History" class in high school, and they're also assigned a couple of passages from Elie Wiesel's Night as part of the same assignment.
I'm all for educating people about how the early colonists massacred the First Nations people who were here - just, maybe not in kindergarten, is all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:03 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Agreed. That's best accomplished, however, with some teachers or other resources to provide context, and with sensitivity to the maturity level of the child in question.
What I mean is: there's a difference between a bored 11-year-old finding a copy of Mein Kampf sitting in their local library and innocently taking it home to read for the heck of it, and a 17-year-old getting a couple of passages as assigned reading as part of a college-prep-level "20th Century European History" class in high school, and they're also assigned a couple of passages from Elie Wiesel's Night as part of the same assignment.
I'm all for educating people about how the early colonists massacred the First Nations people who were here - just, maybe not in kindergarten, is all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:03 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Amanda Gorman, on the banning of her inagural poem The Hill We Climb from Miami-Dade schools:
"So they ban my book from young readers, confuse me with @oprah, fail to specify what parts of my poetry they object to, refuse to read any reviews, and offer no alternatives…Unnecessary #bookbans like these are on the rise, and we must fight back"
One person got this book banned. ONE. The twitter thread has the complaint, you should read it. This is the bullshit we're up against. Fight back.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:07 AM on May 24, 2023 [35 favorites]
"So they ban my book from young readers, confuse me with @oprah, fail to specify what parts of my poetry they object to, refuse to read any reviews, and offer no alternatives…Unnecessary #bookbans like these are on the rise, and we must fight back"
One person got this book banned. ONE. The twitter thread has the complaint, you should read it. This is the bullshit we're up against. Fight back.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:07 AM on May 24, 2023 [35 favorites]
I'm not especially talking about educating people about the past. I'm talking about letting the past be there so people in the future can see what they can find. We don't necessarily know what might be needed from the past.
Consider that the people in medieval Europe preserved at least some of the classical past, and it's as well that they did.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:21 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Consider that the people in medieval Europe preserved at least some of the classical past, and it's as well that they did.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:21 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
I do feel ambivalent about this too. Throughout my career in libraries I've been uncomfortable and dissatisfied with a lot of conversations about intellectual freedom and collection development. The history of library collection development has so much paternalism and snobbery in it (since back when librarians seriously argued that libraries shouldn't have fiction in them because fiction wasn't as useful and morally improving as nonfiction) that I have always been uncomfortable with the idea of arrogating that much power to myself...
And yet, in my last job, where I essentially had total power over collection development, I weeded so much racist stuff.
And yet, in my first library job, I had to bind a bunch of KKK pamphlets for archival in my university's southern history collection, and I could recognize the historical importance and value of those pamphlets for researchers. (They provided a good education in the rhetoric of white supremacy!)
If someone thinks a library book really shouldn't be on the shelves, I think they should have that discussion with a librarian. The community has a place in that discussion - and if a library is underfunded or understaffed, it's highly likely that no one is aware of that craft book from the 1980s that has some racist crafts in it unless someone brings it to our attention! The problem is not individual people reading a book, thinking "yikes," and having a conversation with a librarian - or even escalating that to the library board, if they're really adamant about it. The problem is eleven people whipping the country up into a moral panic about books they haven't even read.
Or, really: the problem is that right now, white supremacists and homophobes feel really empowered to use government power against anything that threatens their worldview. And we can fight back strongly against those people without falling back behind easy slogans about intellectual freedom.
posted by Jeanne at 7:24 AM on May 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
And yet, in my last job, where I essentially had total power over collection development, I weeded so much racist stuff.
And yet, in my first library job, I had to bind a bunch of KKK pamphlets for archival in my university's southern history collection, and I could recognize the historical importance and value of those pamphlets for researchers. (They provided a good education in the rhetoric of white supremacy!)
If someone thinks a library book really shouldn't be on the shelves, I think they should have that discussion with a librarian. The community has a place in that discussion - and if a library is underfunded or understaffed, it's highly likely that no one is aware of that craft book from the 1980s that has some racist crafts in it unless someone brings it to our attention! The problem is not individual people reading a book, thinking "yikes," and having a conversation with a librarian - or even escalating that to the library board, if they're really adamant about it. The problem is eleven people whipping the country up into a moral panic about books they haven't even read.
Or, really: the problem is that right now, white supremacists and homophobes feel really empowered to use government power against anything that threatens their worldview. And we can fight back strongly against those people without falling back behind easy slogans about intellectual freedom.
posted by Jeanne at 7:24 AM on May 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
I'm not especially talking about educating people about the past. I'm talking about letting the past be there so people in the future can see what they can find. We don't necessarily know what might be needed from the past.
Dude, we're not talking about throwing books into the Memory Hole here. We're just saying that maybe the craft books that show kids how to make Aunt Jemima toys out of socks should maybe be decirculated from libraries' kids sections or something. The books would still, like, exist in the world.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:27 AM on May 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
Dude, we're not talking about throwing books into the Memory Hole here. We're just saying that maybe the craft books that show kids how to make Aunt Jemima toys out of socks should maybe be decirculated from libraries' kids sections or something. The books would still, like, exist in the world.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:27 AM on May 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
There's this weird idea that libraries just... buy all the books, and that isn't true. They should be purchasing books that fit what the users of the library want, and weeding material that is out-of-date, inaccurate, etc.
And this makes sense for general-circulation libraries! Research libraries, on the other hand, should be buying all the books (if not as individual institutions, as a broad collective that can share resources through inter-library loan and other means). Sometimes I need a copy of Mein Kampf or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (r some self-published screed from the 1950s for a paper I'm writing or a point I'm researching and, like, I'd rather not buy the books myself (in the case of less notorious "bad books," I might not even be able to). So having a way that individuals can borrow copies of most things that have been written, even the repugnant stuff, is still a good thing in my eyes.
However. Not all libraries are research libraries, not all research libraries need copies of Mein Kampf (though again, as a relatively famous book, this is perhaps a bad example), and not all copies of Mein Kampf in research libraries need to be prominently or even publicly displayed. There are plenty of library collections out there that you can request material from, but cannot physically enter and browse—you need to know what you're looking for before you can request it. Keeping objectionable books in off-site storage seems like it would cut down on a lot of the anxieties about readers being inadvertently radicalized by misleading literature.
(Of course, this is all fairly off-topic for the discussion about child readers, who aren't very likely to be using research libraries anyways, but just my 2¢.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 7:36 AM on May 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
And this makes sense for general-circulation libraries! Research libraries, on the other hand, should be buying all the books (if not as individual institutions, as a broad collective that can share resources through inter-library loan and other means). Sometimes I need a copy of Mein Kampf or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (r some self-published screed from the 1950s for a paper I'm writing or a point I'm researching and, like, I'd rather not buy the books myself (in the case of less notorious "bad books," I might not even be able to). So having a way that individuals can borrow copies of most things that have been written, even the repugnant stuff, is still a good thing in my eyes.
However. Not all libraries are research libraries, not all research libraries need copies of Mein Kampf (though again, as a relatively famous book, this is perhaps a bad example), and not all copies of Mein Kampf in research libraries need to be prominently or even publicly displayed. There are plenty of library collections out there that you can request material from, but cannot physically enter and browse—you need to know what you're looking for before you can request it. Keeping objectionable books in off-site storage seems like it would cut down on a lot of the anxieties about readers being inadvertently radicalized by misleading literature.
(Of course, this is all fairly off-topic for the discussion about child readers, who aren't very likely to be using research libraries anyways, but just my 2¢.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 7:36 AM on May 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
The majority of the 1,000-plus book challenges analyzed by The Post were filed by just 11 people.
This article contains a handy list of books to start reading from and telling all your friends about in the "Top ten most challenged books" table.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 7:41 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
This article contains a handy list of books to start reading from and telling all your friends about in the "Top ten most challenged books" table.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 7:41 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Of course, this is all fairly off-topic for the discussion about child readers, who aren't very likely to be using research libraries anyways, but just my 2¢.
Oh, on the contrary, it is very much on topic - because it clarifies that there are different kinds of libraries, and that maybe librarians kinda know what they're doing if they've chosen a book for your library. Or - if they don't have a book you're looking for, there may be another library it's at, and there may be a reason for that, and they can explain why.
And yet librarians are also busy (I've reached out to SaharaRose again, and she said she's a bit busy today but may read this later), and may not know each and every single title currently on the shelves where they work - and so that if you find something that concerns you, you can absolutely call it to their attention - but then let them make the call about whether that book should be moved to another department, removed entirely, left where it is, or whatever.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:43 AM on May 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
Oh, on the contrary, it is very much on topic - because it clarifies that there are different kinds of libraries, and that maybe librarians kinda know what they're doing if they've chosen a book for your library. Or - if they don't have a book you're looking for, there may be another library it's at, and there may be a reason for that, and they can explain why.
And yet librarians are also busy (I've reached out to SaharaRose again, and she said she's a bit busy today but may read this later), and may not know each and every single title currently on the shelves where they work - and so that if you find something that concerns you, you can absolutely call it to their attention - but then let them make the call about whether that book should be moved to another department, removed entirely, left where it is, or whatever.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:43 AM on May 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
"Dude, we're not talking about throwing books into the Memory Hole here. We're just saying that maybe the craft books that show kids how to make Aunt Jemima toys out of socks should maybe be decirculated from libraries' kids sections or something. The books would still, like, exist in the world."
The linked article has one line in it: "Step 1: Check out a different book"
I don't see any of the nuance you mention; that's what people are pointing out.
(There's also an unspoken assumption that all librarians are awesome and unproblematic, something I don't think is sustainable. [sorry, librarians of the thread])
posted by Galvanic at 7:47 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
The linked article has one line in it: "Step 1: Check out a different book"
I don't see any of the nuance you mention; that's what people are pointing out.
(There's also an unspoken assumption that all librarians are awesome and unproblematic, something I don't think is sustainable. [sorry, librarians of the thread])
posted by Galvanic at 7:47 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
And for the record, yes I know that "but these books are in public libraries, so it's okay" is a defense that Moms For Liberty uses. My counter-argument to that is Moms For Liberty members don't let the librarians make the final call - they FORCE them to abide by THEIR wishes.
That's the real difference here - I'm saying to file a complaint about something and then let the librarian decide, while Moms For Liberty is trying to be the librarian by harassing and threatening the librarian to do their bidding.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:48 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
That's the real difference here - I'm saying to file a complaint about something and then let the librarian decide, while Moms For Liberty is trying to be the librarian by harassing and threatening the librarian to do their bidding.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:48 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Finally disagree about the "step 1" it should be:
1) Read it anyway, it's good for you to become aware of different things. (it's not going to turn you gay or coerce your children into becoming slavering ax murderers, maybe liberals but that's ok too)
posted by sammyo at 7:48 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
1) Read it anyway, it's good for you to become aware of different things. (it's not going to turn you gay or coerce your children into becoming slavering ax murderers, maybe liberals but that's ok too)
posted by sammyo at 7:48 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
- there are things that are bad, in a moral sense, and things that are good, again in a moral sense
- there is not a manual that can conclusively prove that a given thing is good and another given thing is bad
- determining thing good vs. thing bad is a moral judgment, and not only is there no manual upon which one can use as a foundation for our moral judgments,
- such a manual cannot exist.
- it is possible for someone to believe that racial hierarchies must be created and defended and that queer people must be suppressed at all costs
- it is possible for someone to believe that racial hierarchies are evil and that queerness is fundamentally good
- and there is no way for anyone to reason their way into convincing that position 1 is invalid and position 2 is invalid, because, terrifyingly, they are both valid positions
- that old cliché about it being impossible to reason someone out of a position they didn’t reach by reason is dangerously half-right, because it fails to acknowledge that no one’s deepest beliefs are derived from reason — not because people are bad at reasoning, but because
- although reason can be a component of one’s moral judgment, a tool to use to elaborate out from an originary moral judgment and to assess the potential consequences of that originary judgment, it isn’t the source of that originary judgment
- so choosing between positions 1 and 2 above is in fact a choice, outside of reason
- if you were a big fan of the good place you might be thinking about that one bit of kierkegaard right now. if so, i encourage you to continue thinking about it
- ”free speech above all” is in and of itself is a valid moral position, though one with vicious consequences. i don’t think it can stand as a foundation for moral judgements in toto unless one is willing to accept some profoundly nasty consequences
- the questions of whether it is good to keep books about it being good to be queer and whether it is good to keep books about it being good to be racist is not itself something that can be resolved through reasoned debate by free speakers in a public sphere
- there’s something cowardly about liberal/liberal-leaning left defenses of free speech as a foundational concept: it’s an attempt to dodge responsibility for defending one’s own positions by pretending that via the magic of reason and logic one’s positions can simply defend themselves
- that queer good and racist bad are somehow fundamental truths that will win all on their own so long as a public sphere with free-speaking reasoning debaters is maintained
- the foundation we choose to base our moral judgments on is a choice, a genuine free choice, insofar as free choice exists in the material world
- we must defend our moral judgments not because we can prove that they’re right or that other peoples’ are wrong, because that sort of proof is impossible
- we must instead defend our moral judgments because we think they’re right in the absence of proof
- defending our moral judgments isn’t a matter of abstract principle or abstract debate, but is instead a material, physical struggle — we want enough other people to make the same moral judgments that we do that the world we desire becomes real, or at the very least so that our friends don’t get murdered
- don’t wring your hands about “fairness” while locked in a life and death struggle
- don’t pretend that the world we want will emerge naturally should fairness be achieved
- ban the racist books, promote the queer books
- why? because.
- have the courage of your own fucking convictions
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:49 AM on May 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
The linked article has one line in it: "Step 1: Check out a different book" I don't see any of the nuance you mention; that's what people are pointing out.
Because the audience for the linked article are the Moms For Liberty types, who haven't really demonstrated that they're able to comprehend nuance.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:49 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Because the audience for the linked article are the Moms For Liberty types, who haven't really demonstrated that they're able to comprehend nuance.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:49 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
tbf, the audience isn’t moms for liberty types, it’s people who dislike moms for liberty types. no m-f-l is going to look at this page, smack their forehead, and say “oh, of course! i should check out a different book!”
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:51 AM on May 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:51 AM on May 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
Because the audience for the linked article are the Moms For Liberty types, who haven't really demonstrated that they're able to comprehend nuance
It is? No hint of that in the article.
posted by Galvanic at 7:51 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is? No hint of that in the article.
posted by Galvanic at 7:51 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is? No hint of that in the article.
It's for people who challenge books because they dislike them.
As we've AMPLY demonstrated in here, the Moms For Liberty types are the only ones who ARE challenging books at the moment because we're all too conflicted about doing so.
Ergo.....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:54 AM on May 24, 2023
It's for people who challenge books because they dislike them.
As we've AMPLY demonstrated in here, the Moms For Liberty types are the only ones who ARE challenging books at the moment because we're all too conflicted about doing so.
Ergo.....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:54 AM on May 24, 2023
Y'all took a simple dunk and turned it into a nuanced discussion, and that's what I love about you, Metafilter.
posted by clawsoon at 7:55 AM on May 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 7:55 AM on May 24, 2023 [15 favorites]
It's for people who challenge books because they dislike them.
You're building an entire structure into the article that simply does not exist -- and no, it's not aimed at the Moms for Liberty, who as bombastic lowercase pronouncements pointed out, are hardly likely to read this and change their minds. It's aimed at an audience who already disagrees with the MfL and it's a clap-back for those folks to enjoy, like one of those AOC clips where she tenderizes a hearing witness. So, yes, once we finish enjoying the frisson of the clap-back it's perfectly reasonable to point out that, no, if you object to a book in a library, you shouldn't just ignore it and walk on.
posted by Galvanic at 8:00 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
You're building an entire structure into the article that simply does not exist -- and no, it's not aimed at the Moms for Liberty, who as bombastic lowercase pronouncements pointed out, are hardly likely to read this and change their minds. It's aimed at an audience who already disagrees with the MfL and it's a clap-back for those folks to enjoy, like one of those AOC clips where she tenderizes a hearing witness. So, yes, once we finish enjoying the frisson of the clap-back it's perfectly reasonable to point out that, no, if you object to a book in a library, you shouldn't just ignore it and walk on.
posted by Galvanic at 8:00 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
So, yes, once we finish enjoying the frisson of the clap-back it's perfectly reasonable to point out that, no, if you object to a book in a library, you shouldn't just ignore it and walk on.
I....don't recall having said otherwise?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:02 AM on May 24, 2023
I....don't recall having said otherwise?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:02 AM on May 24, 2023
"I don't think all books belong in all libraries and that has caused cognitive dissonance for me and led to me challenging some beliefs I previously held dear"
We all have "am I the asshole?" moments when we ask ourselves if we're really standing up for greater principals or just being hypocritical about what we consider to be appropriate.
It's worth recognizing that the people who are banning these books probably aren't lying awake in bed at night worrying whether their complaints were justified or if they're just dictating what they think is inappropriate.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:04 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
We all have "am I the asshole?" moments when we ask ourselves if we're really standing up for greater principals or just being hypocritical about what we consider to be appropriate.
It's worth recognizing that the people who are banning these books probably aren't lying awake in bed at night worrying whether their complaints were justified or if they're just dictating what they think is inappropriate.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:04 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Community feedback into that process is reasonable and desirable, when it's not being weaponized.
A few years ago, our library's shelf of new acquisitions had a book about how to "naturally" cure cancer. This was "your doctors are lying to you, stop your chemo and drink this special juice" crap that could literally have killed someone. I talked to the branch librarian, and a week later it had been pulled from the city's collection. Librarians are human and make mistakes, but good ones consider objections. And I can certainly imagine a case in which a book with sexual content that is inappropriate for children is accidentally placed in the children's collection. If I came across that, I'd also discuss it with our librarian.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:12 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
A few years ago, our library's shelf of new acquisitions had a book about how to "naturally" cure cancer. This was "your doctors are lying to you, stop your chemo and drink this special juice" crap that could literally have killed someone. I talked to the branch librarian, and a week later it had been pulled from the city's collection. Librarians are human and make mistakes, but good ones consider objections. And I can certainly imagine a case in which a book with sexual content that is inappropriate for children is accidentally placed in the children's collection. If I came across that, I'd also discuss it with our librarian.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:12 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Further, I think that questioning yourself and whether you are doing the right thing when faced with difficult situations and conflicting interests/needs is an essential component of being a good person.
posted by eviemath at 8:12 AM on May 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 8:12 AM on May 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
I....don't recall having said otherwise?
Except that you did with the line that was being responded to, which was nothing more than the "speech you don't like" argument that is endemic to these free speech discussions. It's an argument meant as a thought terminating cliche - it's meant to argue that opposing speech because the person "dislikes" it is bad, while leaning heavily on "dislike" to cover up a lot of context about why someone would be opposed - context that many times shows that opposition has an actual justifiable basis.
Or to put it another way, the problem is that Moms for Liberty want to remove books that don't align to their hateful, provincial worldview, and that's what we should be opposing.
Further, I think that questioning yourself and whether you are doing the right thing when faced with difficult situations and conflicting interests/needs is an essential component of being a good person.
It absolutely is, but it can be taken too far, to the point where we become too ready to argue against our own convictions just because someone is in opposition. There is such a thing as being so open minded that your brain falls out.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:16 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Except that you did with the line that was being responded to, which was nothing more than the "speech you don't like" argument that is endemic to these free speech discussions. It's an argument meant as a thought terminating cliche - it's meant to argue that opposing speech because the person "dislikes" it is bad, while leaning heavily on "dislike" to cover up a lot of context about why someone would be opposed - context that many times shows that opposition has an actual justifiable basis.
Or to put it another way, the problem is that Moms for Liberty want to remove books that don't align to their hateful, provincial worldview, and that's what we should be opposing.
Further, I think that questioning yourself and whether you are doing the right thing when faced with difficult situations and conflicting interests/needs is an essential component of being a good person.
It absolutely is, but it can be taken too far, to the point where we become too ready to argue against our own convictions just because someone is in opposition. There is such a thing as being so open minded that your brain falls out.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:16 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
> Further, I think that questioning yourself and whether you are doing the right thing when faced with difficult situations and conflicting interests/needs is an essential component of being a good person.
yes. we must simultaneously maintain our own uncertainty and also our ability to act despite/through that uncertainty, without knowledge of whether our judgments are right or of whether our actions will ultimately result in good or bad.
this is, needless to say, a total pain in the ass.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:17 AM on May 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
yes. we must simultaneously maintain our own uncertainty and also our ability to act despite/through that uncertainty, without knowledge of whether our judgments are right or of whether our actions will ultimately result in good or bad.
this is, needless to say, a total pain in the ass.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:17 AM on May 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yes, it's called "collection development" and it includes removing materials (weeding) for all sorts of reasons.
I once tried to investigate a particularly puzzling entry on the British Library's "suppressed safe" list of books deemed too dangerous to remain on its public shelves. I never did get a definitive answer to that question, but discovered some entertaining trivia about the list along the way.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:20 AM on May 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
I once tried to investigate a particularly puzzling entry on the British Library's "suppressed safe" list of books deemed too dangerous to remain on its public shelves. I never did get a definitive answer to that question, but discovered some entertaining trivia about the list along the way.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:20 AM on May 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
Except that you did with the line that was being responded to, which was nothing more than the "speech you don't like" argument that is endemic to these free speech discussions. It's an argument meant as a thought terminating cliche - it's meant to argue that opposing speech because the person "dislikes" it is bad, while leaning heavily on "dislike" to cover up a lot of context about why someone would be opposed - context that many times shows that opposition has an actual justifiable basis.
Okay, I am genuinely still not clear about what you're saying here.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:24 AM on May 24, 2023
Okay, I am genuinely still not clear about what you're saying here.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:24 AM on May 24, 2023
It should be noted that the Freeze Peach movement will absolute both turn a blind eye to book banning AND want to fuck with the curatorial processes of libraries because they absolutely don’t give a shit about free so each and, in fact, are interfering with it in both cases.
posted by Artw at 8:34 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:34 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Okay, I am genuinely still not clear about what you're saying here.
My point is that the following line:
It's for people who challenge books because they dislike them.
...is a bad faith argument, and one that crops up a lot in free speech discussions because we live in a society that says we're obliged to give a seat to bigotry and hate because of free speech - a view that more and more has been shown to be harmful and unworkable. The problem with the statement is that "dislike" there is covering up a lot of context, context that can show that opposition as hateful or principled. And many times, the use of the argument is done (and I am not saying you are here) because the speaker is actively concealing that context to make their position seem more principled than it is (see the attacks on the Yale Law and Stanford Law students for a good example of this.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:35 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
My point is that the following line:
It's for people who challenge books because they dislike them.
...is a bad faith argument, and one that crops up a lot in free speech discussions because we live in a society that says we're obliged to give a seat to bigotry and hate because of free speech - a view that more and more has been shown to be harmful and unworkable. The problem with the statement is that "dislike" there is covering up a lot of context, context that can show that opposition as hateful or principled. And many times, the use of the argument is done (and I am not saying you are here) because the speaker is actively concealing that context to make their position seem more principled than it is (see the attacks on the Yale Law and Stanford Law students for a good example of this.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:35 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
What do I do if I don't like a book at the library?
My local library branch was renovated and now has hardly any books at all. If you find a book you don't like now it is because you actively searched for it on the library's website.
posted by srboisvert at 8:50 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
My local library branch was renovated and now has hardly any books at all. If you find a book you don't like now it is because you actively searched for it on the library's website.
posted by srboisvert at 8:50 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is possible to distinguish between "I object to this material because it is bigoted" and "I object to this material because I am a bigot" without tying yourself up in knots over your potential hypocrisy.
posted by kyrademon at 8:51 AM on May 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 8:51 AM on May 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
> My point is that the following line:
It's for people who challenge books because they dislike them.
...is a bad faith argument, and one that crops up a lot in free speech discussions because we live in a society that says we're obliged to give a seat to bigotry and hate because of free speech - a view that more and more has been shown to be harmful and unworkable.
Okay, but I was saying that in response to bombastic lowercase pronouncement's statement that the original article wasn't "for" the Moms for Liberty types. Because there is starting to be some discussion about how "just check out a different book" was a stupid thing to say because of this nuance, and I replied that way "because the Moms for Liberty crowd ain't really into this nuance, so this article simplifies the argument for them".
So one person's "bad faith argument" is another person's "reminder that some people still think in binary terms and so maybe we need to get binary back at them".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:53 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's for people who challenge books because they dislike them.
...is a bad faith argument, and one that crops up a lot in free speech discussions because we live in a society that says we're obliged to give a seat to bigotry and hate because of free speech - a view that more and more has been shown to be harmful and unworkable.
Okay, but I was saying that in response to bombastic lowercase pronouncement's statement that the original article wasn't "for" the Moms for Liberty types. Because there is starting to be some discussion about how "just check out a different book" was a stupid thing to say because of this nuance, and I replied that way "because the Moms for Liberty crowd ain't really into this nuance, so this article simplifies the argument for them".
So one person's "bad faith argument" is another person's "reminder that some people still think in binary terms and so maybe we need to get binary back at them".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:53 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think that some libraries can have a Third Reich shelf or a KKK binder, just as some labs have disease spores -- but in both cases, you should know what you're picking up because it can harm you if you let it in.
I am a library trustee, so I enthusiastically back the librarians' freedom to shape their collection. But, like An Octopus IRL, I know that doing so requires trusting librarians to be good and pure of heart. There is sure to be a racist librarian somewhere, gleefully filling their shelves with vile trash, but the rest of us have to do our best to NotBe That Guy who violates the social contract.
The problems arise in the gap between the people who are genuinely doing their best to serve their neighbors, and the people who feel an obligation to control everyone else. Same as it ever was, I am afraid: some people suck.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:57 AM on May 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
I am a library trustee, so I enthusiastically back the librarians' freedom to shape their collection. But, like An Octopus IRL, I know that doing so requires trusting librarians to be good and pure of heart. There is sure to be a racist librarian somewhere, gleefully filling their shelves with vile trash, but the rest of us have to do our best to NotBe That Guy who violates the social contract.
The problems arise in the gap between the people who are genuinely doing their best to serve their neighbors, and the people who feel an obligation to control everyone else. Same as it ever was, I am afraid: some people suck.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:57 AM on May 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
and then let the librarian decide
This statement kinda ties the whole thing together for me. The whole "___ for Liberty" stuff seems to be all about distrusting experts, with librarians being the latest group of experts to come under fire. You've spent years thinking and learning about this complex, nuanced topic? Well fuck you.
Which reminds me of the fact that my high school library had both recordings of Hitler's speeches and the collected works of Mao. It was Mao, ironically, who aligned most closely with Moms for Liberty in his distrust of experts. Maybe not in the other stuff - well, also in his dislike for urban elites, and his appreciation for the barrel of a gun - but, anyway, in his distrust for experts. The people, he thought, should be writing their own textbooks, without all that elite corruption.
posted by clawsoon at 8:58 AM on May 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
This statement kinda ties the whole thing together for me. The whole "___ for Liberty" stuff seems to be all about distrusting experts, with librarians being the latest group of experts to come under fire. You've spent years thinking and learning about this complex, nuanced topic? Well fuck you.
Which reminds me of the fact that my high school library had both recordings of Hitler's speeches and the collected works of Mao. It was Mao, ironically, who aligned most closely with Moms for Liberty in his distrust of experts. Maybe not in the other stuff - well, also in his dislike for urban elites, and his appreciation for the barrel of a gun - but, anyway, in his distrust for experts. The people, he thought, should be writing their own textbooks, without all that elite corruption.
posted by clawsoon at 8:58 AM on May 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
Because there is starting to be some discussion about how "just check out a different book" was a stupid thing to say because of this nuance, and I replied that way "because the Moms for Liberty crowd ain't really into this nuance, so this article simplifies the argument for them".
The problem is that "just check out another book" a) fundamentally misunderstands the Moms for Liberty position - they're not upset that they can read these books, they're upset that anyone can, and b) as was pointed out above, the position argues that there is no principled opposition to a book, which is nonsense that undermines the pulling of harmful and incorrect books.
It's a bad argument from the get go.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:08 AM on May 24, 2023
The problem is that "just check out another book" a) fundamentally misunderstands the Moms for Liberty position - they're not upset that they can read these books, they're upset that anyone can, and b) as was pointed out above, the position argues that there is no principled opposition to a book, which is nonsense that undermines the pulling of harmful and incorrect books.
It's a bad argument from the get go.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:08 AM on May 24, 2023
The possibility exists that maybe it's also an argument that some of us are way overthinking at this point.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:10 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:10 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
I would take “just check out another book” as a “fuck off” to (a) and irrelevant to (b).
posted by Artw at 9:10 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:10 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
I thought it was cute.
That said, I have gotten books culled from my children's public school library.
One was a series of readers. The first book my son brought home from the series was about a boy who wanted to skateboard and his sister who dared to try the skateboard, learned she couldn't do the skateboard thing due to being a girl, and then helped her brother get a great skateboard. In the second book my son brought home, two white kids were transported to the past to meet an Indian (First Nations) Chief, and amaze him with their wisdom and their advanced technology - an umbrella. In both cases the illustration was more problematic than than the plots I've described.
Upon investigation I learned that this lovely series was from like the late 80s and had been published by a Christian publisher only to lurk in the basement of this school waiting for a renovation to turn up and get put into use during a period of time the school librarian was on leave.
I also asked a teacher about getting rid of some Bobbsey Twin books she had kicking around at the back of her class.
And finally, I myself donated a box of kids books to our After School Program only to have one of the team members bring me Julie of the Wolves and ask me if they could remove it...that was the last time I ever just glanced in a box and turned it over.
So like, things happen with books. I am very glad for librarians man.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:17 AM on May 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
That said, I have gotten books culled from my children's public school library.
One was a series of readers. The first book my son brought home from the series was about a boy who wanted to skateboard and his sister who dared to try the skateboard, learned she couldn't do the skateboard thing due to being a girl, and then helped her brother get a great skateboard. In the second book my son brought home, two white kids were transported to the past to meet an Indian (First Nations) Chief, and amaze him with their wisdom and their advanced technology - an umbrella. In both cases the illustration was more problematic than than the plots I've described.
Upon investigation I learned that this lovely series was from like the late 80s and had been published by a Christian publisher only to lurk in the basement of this school waiting for a renovation to turn up and get put into use during a period of time the school librarian was on leave.
I also asked a teacher about getting rid of some Bobbsey Twin books she had kicking around at the back of her class.
And finally, I myself donated a box of kids books to our After School Program only to have one of the team members bring me Julie of the Wolves and ask me if they could remove it...that was the last time I ever just glanced in a box and turned it over.
So like, things happen with books. I am very glad for librarians man.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:17 AM on May 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
2) Cool beans, plates of beans, beans beans beans; all the way down.
posted by sammyo at 9:29 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sammyo at 9:29 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The possibility exists that maybe it's also an argument that some of us are way overthinking at this point.
Have you met Metafilter?
posted by Galvanic at 9:33 AM on May 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
Have you met Metafilter?
posted by Galvanic at 9:33 AM on May 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
Ugh. Rhetoric and beans on a plate.
1) Words are important, and these groups aren't getting library books banned because they "dislike" them. The books are getting banned because there's a politically motivated hate campaign against certain groups of people. NoxAeternum is correct to point out that that there's a reductionist trap and using the word "dislike" changes the argument into one that's merely about personal preference, i.e. speech you don't like.
2) No one from Moms for Liberty is reading that site and the "joke" wouldn't work if it used the appropriate language for addressing them. And the instructions are most certainly a joke and not to be taken seriously by the site's intended audience.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:34 AM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
1) Words are important, and these groups aren't getting library books banned because they "dislike" them. The books are getting banned because there's a politically motivated hate campaign against certain groups of people. NoxAeternum is correct to point out that that there's a reductionist trap and using the word "dislike" changes the argument into one that's merely about personal preference, i.e. speech you don't like.
2) No one from Moms for Liberty is reading that site and the "joke" wouldn't work if it used the appropriate language for addressing them. And the instructions are most certainly a joke and not to be taken seriously by the site's intended audience.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:34 AM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
dunking is stupid.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:35 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:35 AM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I guess Heather's Moms don't get any of that Liberty...
this is a great discussion. its a complicated subject and the open-minded get bogged down in (completely valid) aspects of nuance while the MFL is slegehammering their way in.
I am definitely not a free speech absolutist, but I'm a book nerd, a historian, and I love libraries!!! we should preserve all knowledge, writing etc., but yeah, maybe let's not promote the works of fascists and genociders? those books belong in special interest collections, available on request (for reasons) because they cause actual harm.
Heather has two mommies belongs in the children's section of a public library because it can actually mitigate harm, and can in no way harm anyone (or their child) who does not read that book.
hugs, an Octopus IRL, your conflict and sensitivity is very valid and understandable! no fight here. but maybe us oh-so-careful progressives, libs and lovers of knowledge do need to roll our sleeves up and get a lot more (pro)active in that fight there. (me too, for sure)
posted by supermedusa at 9:40 AM on May 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
this is a great discussion. its a complicated subject and the open-minded get bogged down in (completely valid) aspects of nuance while the MFL is slegehammering their way in.
I am definitely not a free speech absolutist, but I'm a book nerd, a historian, and I love libraries!!! we should preserve all knowledge, writing etc., but yeah, maybe let's not promote the works of fascists and genociders? those books belong in special interest collections, available on request (for reasons) because they cause actual harm.
Heather has two mommies belongs in the children's section of a public library because it can actually mitigate harm, and can in no way harm anyone (or their child) who does not read that book.
hugs, an Octopus IRL, your conflict and sensitivity is very valid and understandable! no fight here. but maybe us oh-so-careful progressives, libs and lovers of knowledge do need to roll our sleeves up and get a lot more (pro)active in that fight there. (me too, for sure)
posted by supermedusa at 9:40 AM on May 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
NoxAeternum is correct to point out that that there's a reductionist trap and using the word "dislike" changes the argument into one that's merely about personal preference, i.e. speech you don't like.
Okay, then, what words would better describe the audience that the original article was intended for?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:49 AM on May 24, 2023
Okay, then, what words would better describe the audience that the original article was intended for?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:49 AM on May 24, 2023
there’s this mental loop i get stuck in on a regular basis where i act out — and win — in my head arguments with people, some actual ones that have happened with actual people, some ones that involve actual people but haven’t happened, and some with totally imaginary people, and so for example when i’m walking past a house that i deem for whatever reason tacky i’ll catch myself in an imaginary argument with the imaginary owner wherein i deliver just the right zinger to make them shrivel up with shame about their house being too big but/and also shoddy.
i’ve started calling these things “imaginary comeuppances,” specifically because of how awkward and embarrassing that name is, this being for the reason that if i remind myself that imaginary comeuppances are imaginary comeuppances i might dedicate my brain to something more worthwhile. and, well, there’s nothing worthwhile about these arguments in my head, so pretty much anything is more worthwhile.
i’m a big, big fan of masturbation, but this type of mental loop is masturbatory in a bad way. the Internet is, needless to say, absolutely stinking with imaginary comeuppances, huge fora devoted to nothing but imaginary comeuppances, to fraudulent malicious compliances, to fake texts sent to fake bosses, to fake zingers that fake-convince fake republicans to rebuke their face-eating leopards, to descriptions of imagined cheaters taken down and imagined cheated-upons getting their heart’s desire, the Internet is imaginary comeuppances everywhere, imagined comeuppances coating everything in range with a thin sticky layer of nonexistent triumphal ectoplasm for no purpose and to no end.
dunking is stupid.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:51 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
i’ve started calling these things “imaginary comeuppances,” specifically because of how awkward and embarrassing that name is, this being for the reason that if i remind myself that imaginary comeuppances are imaginary comeuppances i might dedicate my brain to something more worthwhile. and, well, there’s nothing worthwhile about these arguments in my head, so pretty much anything is more worthwhile.
i’m a big, big fan of masturbation, but this type of mental loop is masturbatory in a bad way. the Internet is, needless to say, absolutely stinking with imaginary comeuppances, huge fora devoted to nothing but imaginary comeuppances, to fraudulent malicious compliances, to fake texts sent to fake bosses, to fake zingers that fake-convince fake republicans to rebuke their face-eating leopards, to descriptions of imagined cheaters taken down and imagined cheated-upons getting their heart’s desire, the Internet is imaginary comeuppances everywhere, imagined comeuppances coating everything in range with a thin sticky layer of nonexistent triumphal ectoplasm for no purpose and to no end.
dunking is stupid.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:51 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Okay, then, what words would better describe the audience that the original article was intended for?
It's a dunk preaching to the choir. Which, as bombastic lowercase pronouncements pointed out, is a large part of why it's a problematic argument - it's saying "well, if they don't like it, they should read another book", while ignoring why Moms for Liberty are doing all this and arguing that there is no principled opposition to a book and its contents. Which is bad because if we want to push back on MfL, we need to be honest about what they're doing.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:07 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's a dunk preaching to the choir. Which, as bombastic lowercase pronouncements pointed out, is a large part of why it's a problematic argument - it's saying "well, if they don't like it, they should read another book", while ignoring why Moms for Liberty are doing all this and arguing that there is no principled opposition to a book and its contents. Which is bad because if we want to push back on MfL, we need to be honest about what they're doing.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:07 AM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's a dunk preaching to the choir. Which, as bombastic lowercase pronouncements pointed out, is a large part of why it's a problematic argument - it's saying "well, if they don't like it, they should read another book", while ignoring why Moms for Liberty are doing all this and arguing that there is no principled opposition to a book and its contents. Which is bad because if we want to push back on MfL, we need to be honest about what they're doing.
And I think the actual bulk of the conversation in here does that, does it not?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:08 AM on May 24, 2023
And I think the actual bulk of the conversation in here does that, does it not?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:08 AM on May 24, 2023
Okay, then, what words would better describe the audience that the original article was intended for?
A whole bunch of words: erasure, censorship, hate. Using a word such as "dislike" yields rhetorical ground to groups like Moms for Liberty because it diminishes what's actually going on and reduces the debate to one of personal distaste and allows them hide behind a free speech, as if this were only about them being able to express their opinions in a void.
That said, this link is clearly a joke that sacrifices nuance in order to make a more succinct point, so it doesn't really matter. The joke wouldn't scan nearly as well if it didn't reduce things down to "dislike".
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:18 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
A whole bunch of words: erasure, censorship, hate. Using a word such as "dislike" yields rhetorical ground to groups like Moms for Liberty because it diminishes what's actually going on and reduces the debate to one of personal distaste and allows them hide behind a free speech, as if this were only about them being able to express their opinions in a void.
That said, this link is clearly a joke that sacrifices nuance in order to make a more succinct point, so it doesn't really matter. The joke wouldn't scan nearly as well if it didn't reduce things down to "dislike".
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:18 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
but also maybe the joke is stupid.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:19 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:19 AM on May 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
I dunno. It may be an imaginary comeuppance, but it was still slightly cathartic to read.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:21 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:21 AM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
A whole bunch of words: erasure, censorship, hate. Using a word such as "dislike" yields rhetorical ground to groups like Moms for Liberty because it diminishes what's actually going on and reduces the debate to one of personal distaste and allows them hide behind a free speech, as if this were only about them being able to express their opinions in a void.
Okay, fair cop - it is a personal habit of mine to use wildly genteel euphemisms for a mild comedic effect, and the danger there is that not everyone understands that that's what I'm doing. My bad.
And now may I assume that we have thoroughly investigated my error in semantic word choice? I was getting into the larger conversation about how to balance the wish for access to information vs. the wish to respect others' choices, and I'm going to be returning to that conversational thread if it's all the same.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:27 AM on May 24, 2023
Okay, fair cop - it is a personal habit of mine to use wildly genteel euphemisms for a mild comedic effect, and the danger there is that not everyone understands that that's what I'm doing. My bad.
And now may I assume that we have thoroughly investigated my error in semantic word choice? I was getting into the larger conversation about how to balance the wish for access to information vs. the wish to respect others' choices, and I'm going to be returning to that conversational thread if it's all the same.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:27 AM on May 24, 2023
Anywaaaay....this reminded me of this podcast episode of what happened to one librarian when she made a public comment on the value of developing a diverse collection of books. And it touches on EmpressCallipygos' earlier point that the problem here is that most book complaints aren't even locally generated - this librarian was doing fine in her little community until she became a target of a national movement.
So yeah, I agree telling people to just check out another book isn't really much of dunk, because it's not even about the books. But also that seems like the least interesting thing to discuss here.
posted by coffeecat at 10:58 AM on May 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
So yeah, I agree telling people to just check out another book isn't really much of dunk, because it's not even about the books. But also that seems like the least interesting thing to discuss here.
posted by coffeecat at 10:58 AM on May 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
It is possible to distinguish between "I object to this material because it is bigoted" and "I object to this material because I am a bigot" without tying yourself up in knots over your potential hypocrisy.
I like that in a slogan, though maybe a little shorter. "We want to remove bigoted books from our kids' library, not have bigots remove books from our kids' library."
posted by clawsoon at 11:23 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
I like that in a slogan, though maybe a little shorter. "We want to remove bigoted books from our kids' library, not have bigots remove books from our kids' library."
posted by clawsoon at 11:23 AM on May 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
There is a long history of restricting access to materials - even in research libraries - and even for adults - (here is a one institution's history with the Index Librorum Prohibitorum). As well, I would point out the American Library Association's Freedom to Read Statement.
posted by mfoight at 12:19 PM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mfoight at 12:19 PM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
But also that seems like the least interesting thing to discuss here.
I think it comes second to several hundred comments hyperventilating about how eeeeeevil these people are. Nothing like a large number of people in violent agreement with each other.
posted by Galvanic at 1:55 PM on May 24, 2023
I think it comes second to several hundred comments hyperventilating about how eeeeeevil these people are. Nothing like a large number of people in violent agreement with each other.
posted by Galvanic at 1:55 PM on May 24, 2023
supermedusa said: this is a great discussion. its a complicated subject and the open-minded get bogged down in (completely valid) aspects of nuance while the MFL is slegehammering their way in.
And this is why liberals lose.
I've said it many times: I'm as pinko Commie liberal as they come, but even I have to tip my cap to Conservative Republicans. They play the game better.
See also the clip from the pilot to The Newsroom as written by Aaron Sorkin: "You know why people don't like liberals? Because they lose. If liberals are so fuckin' smart, how come they lose so GODDAM ALWAYS!"
posted by zooropa at 2:56 PM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
And this is why liberals lose.
I've said it many times: I'm as pinko Commie liberal as they come, but even I have to tip my cap to Conservative Republicans. They play the game better.
- We debate. They simplify their argument.
- We allow for nuance. They zero in on one thing.
- We get lost in the comments. They organize.
- We bring a knife to the rumble. They bring an AR-15.
- We lose and move on to the next thing. They lose and come back again. And again. And again. And again.
See also the clip from the pilot to The Newsroom as written by Aaron Sorkin: "You know why people don't like liberals? Because they lose. If liberals are so fuckin' smart, how come they lose so GODDAM ALWAYS!"
posted by zooropa at 2:56 PM on May 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Case in point: this thread has 71 comments
Oh FFS. Yes, it’s metafilter's fault that liberals have won 7 out of the last 8 presidential popular votes.
posted by Galvanic at 3:34 PM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh FFS. Yes, it’s metafilter's fault that liberals have won 7 out of the last 8 presidential popular votes.
posted by Galvanic at 3:34 PM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mod note: A few deleted, let's keep things on track please!
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 5:17 PM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 5:17 PM on May 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: Have you met Metafilter?
posted by bendy at 7:26 PM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bendy at 7:26 PM on May 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm weary after reading this thread. However it was worth it for the comments from kyrademon and clawsoon. Thank you both.
posted by Scout405 at 7:39 PM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Scout405 at 7:39 PM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
What if I don't like some clothing at Target?
posted by hypnogogue at 9:45 PM on May 24, 2023
posted by hypnogogue at 9:45 PM on May 24, 2023
What if I don't like some clothing at Target?
I get the facetious intent here, but given that retailers in the US have been caught out doing things like selling tshirts with the Death's Head on them (to give one notorious example), clothing is very much something that can come under criticism.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:49 AM on May 25, 2023
I get the facetious intent here, but given that retailers in the US have been caught out doing things like selling tshirts with the Death's Head on them (to give one notorious example), clothing is very much something that can come under criticism.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:49 AM on May 25, 2023
Criticism is one thing; threatening a Target location's employees is something else again.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:32 AM on May 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:32 AM on May 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
"I want to get rid of bigoted clothing at Target. I don't want bigots to get rid of clothing at Target."
posted by clawsoon at 1:46 PM on May 25, 2023
posted by clawsoon at 1:46 PM on May 25, 2023
"We want to remove bigoted books from our kids' library"
So what is the mechanism this thread prefers, having residents in a public library's area request that the librarians remove certain titles or reclassify them in restricted collections?
Or should library staff do more of that collection weeding?
Should trustees encourage staff and the community to identify materials for withdrawal/restriction?
Or have local government (municipal, county) encourage same?
posted by doctornemo at 6:14 AM on May 26, 2023
So what is the mechanism this thread prefers, having residents in a public library's area request that the librarians remove certain titles or reclassify them in restricted collections?
Or should library staff do more of that collection weeding?
Should trustees encourage staff and the community to identify materials for withdrawal/restriction?
Or have local government (municipal, county) encourage same?
posted by doctornemo at 6:14 AM on May 26, 2023
So what is the mechanism this thread prefers, having residents in a public library's area request that the librarians remove certain titles or reclassify them in restricted collections?
Uh....yes?
There already is a process by which a person can alert the library if they have concerns about a given book. And the way the process is supposed to work is that the library vets the complaint, and either a) removes the book if it's really heinous and would not serve the needs of the community at large, b) moves the book to a restricted area (and the level of restriction would depend on the book and the nature of the challenge), or c) leave the book where it is, and politely explain to the complainer that while they may personally feel oogy about it, they are in a very small minority who feels thus, and so we can't cater just to them.
But in all those cases, the library makes the final call. The problem with the current crop of book-banners is that they are making the complaints, but then harassing the library in an effort to override the library's own authority on the matter.
So, in other words, yes, the mechanism that this thread would prefer is that residents in a public library's area file requests and then let the librarians do the jobs they were hired to do - and "throw an ear-splitting snit and threaten a librarian into removing a book because it wigs you out" is definitely not something we want.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:32 AM on May 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Uh....yes?
There already is a process by which a person can alert the library if they have concerns about a given book. And the way the process is supposed to work is that the library vets the complaint, and either a) removes the book if it's really heinous and would not serve the needs of the community at large, b) moves the book to a restricted area (and the level of restriction would depend on the book and the nature of the challenge), or c) leave the book where it is, and politely explain to the complainer that while they may personally feel oogy about it, they are in a very small minority who feels thus, and so we can't cater just to them.
But in all those cases, the library makes the final call. The problem with the current crop of book-banners is that they are making the complaints, but then harassing the library in an effort to override the library's own authority on the matter.
So, in other words, yes, the mechanism that this thread would prefer is that residents in a public library's area file requests and then let the librarians do the jobs they were hired to do - and "throw an ear-splitting snit and threaten a librarian into removing a book because it wigs you out" is definitely not something we want.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:32 AM on May 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't know that "this thread" has a universal position on this, but I'll note that one of the problems with the current situation is that libraries and local governments have been capitulating much too easily to complaints. As I understand it, the Amanda Gorman poem was put on a school library's restricted list after a single (ridiculous) complaint by a parent. That's way too compliant.
posted by Galvanic at 8:46 AM on May 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Galvanic at 8:46 AM on May 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
The harassment from conservative groups is part of why libraries nationwide are capitulating so easily. Not that the harassment is happening in every library each time - but, this shit's been going on a couple years now, and has reached OUTRAGEOUS lengths in some places. So if you're a librarian in a small town in like Iowa, and you've been reading for months about the crazy shit going down in other places - and then you get one such complaint yourself, you're probably going to end up thinking "oh fuck" and panic and comply.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:18 AM on May 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:18 AM on May 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
I used to own a small book store. There were books I chose not to carry. Some doofus special ordered Anarchist's Cookbook and never picked it up; nice way to hurt a very small business. I special-ordered Bret Easton Ellis' American Psycho for someone but did not carry it otherwise because it was so foul and pointedly misogynistic.
Every bookseller and librarian I've known is extremely thoughtful and diligent about choosing and recommending books. Though there was that one time Videoport recommended a movie for my kids' sleepover and it was wayyy too scary for 11 year olds. My town is having a hot mess of school board trouble because Extreme Religious Righties are using a playbook and booklist to try to ban school library books they won't even read 1st. Read The Book you want to ban. Read thoughtful and diverse reviews. The book banners are self-righteous jerks with a shred of validity. They cherry pick the worst paragraph, the image that is over the edge. If you read the whole book, it's in context, and maybe you wish the author had been a shade more delicate, but you use judgement and see if the book's value is enough to balance to overcome an indelicate paragraph.
I want to ban inaccurate history books religious books in schools. We're duking out Community Standards, town by town. I'm happy that my community keeps showing the fuck up to school board meetings to defend books. This is work and we have to do it, or the bad guys keep winning. I genuinely believe we are seeing the start of a war on trans people and it's on us to show up.
posted by theora55 at 9:50 AM on May 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Every bookseller and librarian I've known is extremely thoughtful and diligent about choosing and recommending books. Though there was that one time Videoport recommended a movie for my kids' sleepover and it was wayyy too scary for 11 year olds. My town is having a hot mess of school board trouble because Extreme Religious Righties are using a playbook and booklist to try to ban school library books they won't even read 1st. Read The Book you want to ban. Read thoughtful and diverse reviews. The book banners are self-righteous jerks with a shred of validity. They cherry pick the worst paragraph, the image that is over the edge. If you read the whole book, it's in context, and maybe you wish the author had been a shade more delicate, but you use judgement and see if the book's value is enough to balance to overcome an indelicate paragraph.
I want to ban inaccurate history books religious books in schools. We're duking out Community Standards, town by town. I'm happy that my community keeps showing the fuck up to school board meetings to defend books. This is work and we have to do it, or the bad guys keep winning. I genuinely believe we are seeing the start of a war on trans people and it's on us to show up.
posted by theora55 at 9:50 AM on May 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
So if you're a librarian in a small town in like Iowa, and you've been reading for months about the crazy shit going down in other places - and then you get one such complaint yourself, you're probably going to end up thinking "oh fuck" and panic and comply.
And these are the folks you want to hand ultimate authority to? I mean I get the point about the harassment, but self-censoring ahead of time seems a serious failure of responsibility.
posted by Galvanic at 10:05 AM on May 26, 2023
And these are the folks you want to hand ultimate authority to? I mean I get the point about the harassment, but self-censoring ahead of time seems a serious failure of responsibility.
posted by Galvanic at 10:05 AM on May 26, 2023
Read The Book you want to ban.
And they often don't. Hence the great conclusion to Ray Bradbury's "Usher II."
posted by doctornemo at 10:18 AM on May 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
And they often don't. Hence the great conclusion to Ray Bradbury's "Usher II."
posted by doctornemo at 10:18 AM on May 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
And these are the folks you want to hand ultimate authority to? I mean I get the point about the harassment, but self-censoring ahead of time seems a serious failure of responsibility.
Whoa, slow your roll there. I did not say things should be this way, I was only speculating why things are this way.
Because - as you have actually helpfully demonstrated - pointing out why things are the way they are can get people angry enough to want to do something about it, and also hopefully point them in the right direction to do so.
Of course I don't think we should hand ultimate authority to those morons. That's exactly why I was sounding the alarm about it - and you've demonstrated you've heard that alarm. And that's great. Now let's go do something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:31 AM on May 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Whoa, slow your roll there. I did not say things should be this way, I was only speculating why things are this way.
Because - as you have actually helpfully demonstrated - pointing out why things are the way they are can get people angry enough to want to do something about it, and also hopefully point them in the right direction to do so.
Of course I don't think we should hand ultimate authority to those morons. That's exactly why I was sounding the alarm about it - and you've demonstrated you've heard that alarm. And that's great. Now let's go do something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:31 AM on May 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Of course I don't think we should hand ultimate authority to those morons
I was referring to the librarians.
posted by Galvanic at 10:48 AM on May 26, 2023
I was referring to the librarians.
posted by Galvanic at 10:48 AM on May 26, 2023
Most librarians really care about intellectual freedom.
Now, mind you, in a small town in Iowa, the library director might be the mayor's niece who's never taken a library science class in her life, because the library is only open 25 hours a week and "library director" is a part-time, no-benefits, $13/hour job.
But in general, public libraries are pushing back really strongly on efforts to ban books. They haven't always been successful, because sometimes the library board is very conservative, and sometimes people who don't get their way with book challenges want to just defund the library. But the number of successful challenges in public libraries is pretty small.
The massive bans in Texas and Florida (among other places) are in large part happening in school districts, because state legislators in those states have passed laws granting people (who may not even be located in the district, and may not have kids in district schools!) the right to challenge books for entirely spurious reasons. And teachers and administrators can be charged with a felony if students have access to books that fall afoul of Florida's (incredibly vague and open-to-interpretation!) laws. A lot of those schools have a library but not a librarian. Of course principals and teachers are going to opt to cover their asses rather than lose their jobs and get charged with a felony. And any show or moral courage at that point would be... nice, I guess, but pointless if the courageous person is just going to immediately be replaced by someone who'll fall into line.
posted by Jeanne at 11:13 AM on May 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Now, mind you, in a small town in Iowa, the library director might be the mayor's niece who's never taken a library science class in her life, because the library is only open 25 hours a week and "library director" is a part-time, no-benefits, $13/hour job.
But in general, public libraries are pushing back really strongly on efforts to ban books. They haven't always been successful, because sometimes the library board is very conservative, and sometimes people who don't get their way with book challenges want to just defund the library. But the number of successful challenges in public libraries is pretty small.
The massive bans in Texas and Florida (among other places) are in large part happening in school districts, because state legislators in those states have passed laws granting people (who may not even be located in the district, and may not have kids in district schools!) the right to challenge books for entirely spurious reasons. And teachers and administrators can be charged with a felony if students have access to books that fall afoul of Florida's (incredibly vague and open-to-interpretation!) laws. A lot of those schools have a library but not a librarian. Of course principals and teachers are going to opt to cover their asses rather than lose their jobs and get charged with a felony. And any show or moral courage at that point would be... nice, I guess, but pointless if the courageous person is just going to immediately be replaced by someone who'll fall into line.
posted by Jeanne at 11:13 AM on May 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was referring to the librarians.
I'd started responding to this before Jeanne said things I was going to say better.
So I'll just ask the question - if you don't trust librarians to make the best choices about "whether a book deserves to be in a library", then who do you trust?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:15 AM on May 26, 2023
I'd started responding to this before Jeanne said things I was going to say better.
So I'll just ask the question - if you don't trust librarians to make the best choices about "whether a book deserves to be in a library", then who do you trust?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:15 AM on May 26, 2023
I don't know that "this thread" has a universal position on this, but I'll note that one of the problems with the current situation is that libraries and local governments have been capitulating much too easily to complaints.
Um, you're aware there are librarians on MeFi and in this thread, right?
This librarian's had a good friend lose her library directorship due to mayoral nepotism. (Not this case, but very similar.) I could spell out some of the crap I've taken from faculty (as an academic, not public, librarian) and library vendors. I could talk for literal actual hours about the crap my friends have taken, in pretty much all walks of librarianship.
When I say that librarianship is a much-stereotyped, low-social-status profession, it's not just complaining. It leads pretty directly to these right-wing censoring shitstains being able to trap librarians in corners and lose them their jobs if they try to escape.
With respect to K-12, one thing that hasn't come up in this thread yet is that districts have been shedding actual librarians like a cat sheds fur in spring, the last couple decades. I wish a journalist or LIS researcher would take the list of known book bannings and attempted bannings and check into whether the school (or, sadly, even just the district) had real actual librarians on staff. Plenty don't, so it's untrained-in-librarianship teachers or IT people or administrators throwing in the towel. How this is librarianship's fault I can't quite fathom.
So yeah. You and your little blame game? Are NOT HELPING ANY OF THIS AT ALL. Go help, if you would.
posted by humbug at 12:42 PM on May 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Um, you're aware there are librarians on MeFi and in this thread, right?
This librarian's had a good friend lose her library directorship due to mayoral nepotism. (Not this case, but very similar.) I could spell out some of the crap I've taken from faculty (as an academic, not public, librarian) and library vendors. I could talk for literal actual hours about the crap my friends have taken, in pretty much all walks of librarianship.
When I say that librarianship is a much-stereotyped, low-social-status profession, it's not just complaining. It leads pretty directly to these right-wing censoring shitstains being able to trap librarians in corners and lose them their jobs if they try to escape.
With respect to K-12, one thing that hasn't come up in this thread yet is that districts have been shedding actual librarians like a cat sheds fur in spring, the last couple decades. I wish a journalist or LIS researcher would take the list of known book bannings and attempted bannings and check into whether the school (or, sadly, even just the district) had real actual librarians on staff. Plenty don't, so it's untrained-in-librarianship teachers or IT people or administrators throwing in the towel. How this is librarianship's fault I can't quite fathom.
So yeah. You and your little blame game? Are NOT HELPING ANY OF THIS AT ALL. Go help, if you would.
posted by humbug at 12:42 PM on May 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
then who do you trust?
I’d like to trust the librarians.
you're aware there are librarians on MeFi and in this thread, right?
I am, yes.
posted by Galvanic at 2:39 PM on May 26, 2023
I’d like to trust the librarians.
you're aware there are librarians on MeFi and in this thread, right?
I am, yes.
posted by Galvanic at 2:39 PM on May 26, 2023
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posted by Etrigan at 5:38 AM on May 24, 2023 [21 favorites]