Your boss is an asshole
May 27, 2023 11:38 AM Subscribe
In a landmark May Day ruling called Lion Elastomers, the National Labor Relations Board restored the rights of union representatives to use heated language, including occasional profanity, during arguments with management.
Here's a another link to a Reuters story about the change.
No, we do not agree to your terms. Fuck you.
posted by fairmettle at 11:53 AM on May 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 11:53 AM on May 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Swearin' YES!
Censors NO!
Union busting’s got to FACKIN' go!
posted by lalochezia at 12:26 PM on May 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Censors NO!
Union busting’s got to FACKIN' go!
posted by lalochezia at 12:26 PM on May 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Pardon my French, but you're an asshole.
posted by chasles at 12:26 PM on May 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by chasles at 12:26 PM on May 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Fuck your feelings.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:10 PM on May 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by 2N2222 at 1:10 PM on May 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Apropos of nothing, I thought the company name sounded familiar so I did a lookup. They own what little is left of the former Ameripol Synpol group after bankruptcies and downsizings. And one of Lion's plants is right next door to the TPC Group plant that exploded in 2019.
posted by zaixfeep at 1:14 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 1:14 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wayback Machine copy in case anybody else is currently seeing the same nonspecific error on the original page as I am.
posted by flabdablet at 1:14 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:14 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here’s a Reuters story link as well until Labor Notes comes back from their contract-protected lunch hour
posted by curious nu at 1:29 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by curious nu at 1:29 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
What a bizarrely necessary development.
posted by rhizome at 2:43 PM on May 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 2:43 PM on May 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
As an Australian, I feel like I don't really understand what's going on here.
posted by krisjohn at 3:16 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by krisjohn at 3:16 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ah, apologies, krisjohn! This could definitely use some more framing, especially since the original link is currently down.
In the US, a government body called the National Labor Review Board handles some decisions over employee/employer labor disputes, especially with unions. In 2020, under the Trump admins the NLRB passed down a decision that labor-management discussions must have a certain level of decorum, so neutral voices, no “bad language” etc. This decision overturns that. It was the best link I’d seen so far going into the whys of this decision, so hopefully it’ll be back soon.
posted by curious nu at 3:37 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
In the US, a government body called the National Labor Review Board handles some decisions over employee/employer labor disputes, especially with unions. In 2020, under the Trump admins the NLRB passed down a decision that labor-management discussions must have a certain level of decorum, so neutral voices, no “bad language” etc. This decision overturns that. It was the best link I’d seen so far going into the whys of this decision, so hopefully it’ll be back soon.
posted by curious nu at 3:37 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
also, in the US, unlike Australia, some words are considered “not appropriate to use in some situations”
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:51 PM on May 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:51 PM on May 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
As an Australian, I feel like I don't really understand what's going on here.
Yes in some ways this a deeply weird decision. On the one hand, dedication to "civil discourse" was deeply disingenuous under the Trump administration. Hence my previous reply, which was a phrase of some notoriety from that time. The policy seems to have been a tool to silence grievances before they're even argued, on the basis of decorum.
On the other hand, just because you could doesn't necessarily mean you should. The idea that one could abandon self restraint is often ill advised, as we all know, freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences. Policy has reverted so that such incidents are to be evaluated in context, rather than penalized automatically. My more cynical take on this ruling is that it allows workers enough rope to hang themselves, with an explanation why they're being hung.
Also weird in that it's not quite a court ruling that sets precedent, but an NLRB policy ruling, which is subject to changing political winds.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:50 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes in some ways this a deeply weird decision. On the one hand, dedication to "civil discourse" was deeply disingenuous under the Trump administration. Hence my previous reply, which was a phrase of some notoriety from that time. The policy seems to have been a tool to silence grievances before they're even argued, on the basis of decorum.
On the other hand, just because you could doesn't necessarily mean you should. The idea that one could abandon self restraint is often ill advised, as we all know, freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences. Policy has reverted so that such incidents are to be evaluated in context, rather than penalized automatically. My more cynical take on this ruling is that it allows workers enough rope to hang themselves, with an explanation why they're being hung.
Also weird in that it's not quite a court ruling that sets precedent, but an NLRB policy ruling, which is subject to changing political winds.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:50 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, just because you could doesn't necessarily mean you should.
Employers have presumably never had any consequences for using such language in discussions with unions; the threat (of firing) only ever went one way. The whole point is that union representatives and management should be able to discuss the issues as notional equals.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:21 AM on May 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Employers have presumably never had any consequences for using such language in discussions with unions; the threat (of firing) only ever went one way. The whole point is that union representatives and management should be able to discuss the issues as notional equals.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:21 AM on May 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
So exactly what was the reinstated worker fired for? Per the first article:
posted by sjswitzer at 7:12 AM on May 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
In one outburst, he told the safety and security manager to “just go ahead and leave.” In another he said the manager was not doing his job.I just want to top-level that astonishing fact for those who read comments first.
posted by sjswitzer at 7:12 AM on May 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Employers have presumably never had any consequences for using such language in discussions with unions; the threat (of firing) only ever went one way. The whole point is that union representatives and management should be able to discuss the issues as notional equals.
Yes, and...?
Though I'll take issue with what you write. Employers absolutely can face consequences for using such language. If labor is in a position to bring consequences. The threat goes both ways, which is why collective bargaining is such a disruption to begin with. The ability to hurt the employer bottom line is the equalizer. If labor is unwilling to do that, then there's little bargaining power, and heated language of any kind is unlikely to help.
Back to the decision, it's unbelievably stupid to think that labor has no need to, in addition to other things, win hearts and minds during any kind of negotiation. Acting with the restraint of a full blown MAGA when dealing with anyone is stupid and counterproductive. Tell me how it's not fair, stomp your feet and hold your breath. If you're ready to actually argue against what I wrote, feel free to do so. The decision isn't a free pass to counter-asshole management. Being an asshole, even in the name of labor organizing, can still get you legitimately fired. It's a procedural reversion to not automatically quell negotiations in the name of decorum.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:15 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, and...?
Though I'll take issue with what you write. Employers absolutely can face consequences for using such language. If labor is in a position to bring consequences. The threat goes both ways, which is why collective bargaining is such a disruption to begin with. The ability to hurt the employer bottom line is the equalizer. If labor is unwilling to do that, then there's little bargaining power, and heated language of any kind is unlikely to help.
Back to the decision, it's unbelievably stupid to think that labor has no need to, in addition to other things, win hearts and minds during any kind of negotiation. Acting with the restraint of a full blown MAGA when dealing with anyone is stupid and counterproductive. Tell me how it's not fair, stomp your feet and hold your breath. If you're ready to actually argue against what I wrote, feel free to do so. The decision isn't a free pass to counter-asshole management. Being an asshole, even in the name of labor organizing, can still get you legitimately fired. It's a procedural reversion to not automatically quell negotiations in the name of decorum.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:15 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Apparently one of the "uncivil" forms of discourse formerly forbidden was accusing managers of lying. So they could lie, and suggesting that they were lying could shitcan negotiations and get people fired. From the decision (availble in full here):
posted by restless_nomad at 10:30 AM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
The General Motors Board failed to explain how meaningful collective bargaining can occur if employee representatives, while engaged in their official union duties, are subject to discipline or discharge for any perceived violation of the employer’s work rules, including civility rules that may prohibit, among other things, speaking in loud, angry, or threatening tones.It's quite a decision and worth at least skimming - it is very clear that the previous decision was wildly out of step with precedent and logically self-contradictory in a number of places.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:30 AM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah, my boss is a complete asshole. Of course, I'm self-employed.
posted by SPrintF at 10:35 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 10:35 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Employers absolutely can face consequences for using such language. If labor is in a position to bring consequences.
Yes, and the previous regime was trying to make sure that labor never arrived at that position, and weaponizing civility was one of the ways they did that.
posted by Etrigan at 10:53 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, and the previous regime was trying to make sure that labor never arrived at that position, and weaponizing civility was one of the ways they did that.
posted by Etrigan at 10:53 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Back to the decision, it's unbelievably stupid to think that labor has no need to, in addition to other things, win hearts and minds during any kind of negotiation. Acting with the restraint of a full blown MAGA when dealing with anyone is stupid and counterproductive.
Absolutely. Labor organizing and mobilizing is really just a whole lot of conversations, as Adam Conover explained very well in this recent clip. Most of these are conversations with other members.
But labor negotiating (which I am currently involved in as a member of my unit's bargaining committee) is also, to a great degree, about conversations. Sometimes during bargaining sessions, we really lay into management. But other times, we butter them up a bit. In fact, I've nicknamed one of my fellow committee members "the ____ whisperer" (where the blank is the first name of one of our company's senior execs), because she (my fellow committee member) is really good at sweet-talking that particular exec, and sometimes getting her to change her position, when harangues haven't worked.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:32 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Absolutely. Labor organizing and mobilizing is really just a whole lot of conversations, as Adam Conover explained very well in this recent clip. Most of these are conversations with other members.
But labor negotiating (which I am currently involved in as a member of my unit's bargaining committee) is also, to a great degree, about conversations. Sometimes during bargaining sessions, we really lay into management. But other times, we butter them up a bit. In fact, I've nicknamed one of my fellow committee members "the ____ whisperer" (where the blank is the first name of one of our company's senior execs), because she (my fellow committee member) is really good at sweet-talking that particular exec, and sometimes getting her to change her position, when harangues haven't worked.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:32 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, my boss is a complete asshole. Of course, I'm self-employed.
On the upside, you do get to sleep with the boss' spouse.
posted by mikelieman at 4:17 AM on May 29, 2023
On the upside, you do get to sleep with the boss' spouse.
posted by mikelieman at 4:17 AM on May 29, 2023
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