Comments on: Comments on 19965

Post number 19965

vacapinta — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:44:47 -0800

.i la lojban mo
Lojban is in many ways like any other language. There's an English-Lojban dictionary. There's a Lojban grammar. You can even get your news at Nuzban, a Lojban-only news site.

Lojban, however, is a completely constructed language. Why Lojban? Well, Lojban came from Loglan, an invented language from the 1950's (Loglan was created as an experiment to study the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis: succinctly, the idea that language and culture are hopelessly intertwined) Today, there are hundreds of invented languages and a thriving language construction community. Alongside well-known constructs such as Tolkien's elven languages and Klingon, there's also d'ni - the language of Myst, a language of flowers, opus-2 - a language that shuns word order and Teonat - a language of the imaginary inhabitants of Teon.
With the help of online language construction kits, you too can create your own language.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:49:34 -0800

With the help of online language construction kits, you too can create your own language. Some Me-Fites are way ahead of ya, vacapinta, my man.

By: sennoma

sennoma — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:59:52 -0800

Mi subtenas la Esperanton movadon. But I would abandon it in a flash for a demonstrably better alternative conlang, since what I really support is the idea of a universal second language. I must look into that again -- surely Esperanto has been surpasse d several times by now in terms of consistency, logical formulations, and limited similarity to national languages? P

By: billder

billder — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:17:57 -0800

Xmxx j lytc. Okmj ayc bheyrb kmo!

By: Slithy_Tove

Slithy_Tove — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:23:21 -0800

Fascinating subject. Thanks for the links! Do you think MeFi would be a kinder, gentler place if we all used the language of flowers? Foxglove [weblog], Spanish jasmine rose walnut. "I-am-ambitious-for-your [weblog], sensual-love-intellect." Hm. Try as I might, I couldn't find a way to say 'weblog' in the language of flowers. However, Ficoides means 'addresses rejected', which would be perfect for a 404 page.

By: vacapinta

vacapinta — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:36:55 -0800

Also be sure to check out Talossan, the official language of the Kingdom of Talossa (I think its in Wisconsin.) Their immigration office is online.

By: Homeskillet Freshy Fresh

Homeskillet Freshy Fresh — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:37:16 -0800

I trust no artificial language until Shatner says it's okay.

By: Ljubljana

Ljubljana — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:38:52 -0800

mi [cu] tavla le mo klama [ku] ri [vau] I talk to the what-kind-of go-er about itself? So that's how you say it!

By: y10k

y10k — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:54:13 -0800

My favourite invented language is Toki Pona. Only 150 words to learn, very soothing too.

By: y2karl

y2karl — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:55:12 -0800

Had the poster pegged before I finished the first sentence. A post sublime as always. 6915 has never posted? Oh, the coherent English only thing...

By: kliuless

kliuless — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:01:06 -0800

vaghep li'uzh niqeqan where is-located nutrient-place Where is the nutrient station? borgh :) Hi'uH 'il jam. qilajush ghorv!

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:01:13 -0800

Although I'm not certain at all that a formulation of Sapir-Whorf along the lines of 'a close relationship between the structure of a language and the culture that uses that language' can be argued (and few would do so, it seems), I am nonetheless quite inclined to believe the Lojban formulation has something going for it : "the structure of language constrains the thought patterns of participants in the culture associated with that language." Contrains might not be the verb I'd choose, but hey hoopla. I am a layman, linguistically, but I'm fascinated by the way in which a language can influence and shape the ways in which speakers of that language perceive the world and interact with it and other speakers of that language.

By: lbergstr

lbergstr — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:26:25 -0800

"the structure of language constrains the thought patterns of participants in the culture associated with that language." I'm too drunk to disprove the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in this comment box, but basically, the work that made Noam Chomsky famous completely destroys this idea. Every human language has the same deep grammar, which is why infants can learn to speak with even minimal exposure to spoken language. Everything you've heard about different languages' constructions for time altering how people perceive the world is bunk. The Eskimos don't even have that many words for snow. Read Steve Pinker's "The Language Instinct" if you're really interested in the subject.

By: RJ Reynolds

RJ Reynolds — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:28:15 -0800

Gorgeous post. I may move to the mountains and spend my life speaking opus-2: world: car door slamming glorify: deep red dangerous: mothballs That is so fucking excellent.

By: Acetylene

Acetylene — Thu, 12 Sep 2002 23:24:45 -0800

My favorite invented language is definitely solresol. Well, actually I haven't quite got around to learning it just yet, but in theory I love it.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:19:40 -0800

I'm too drunk to disprove the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in this comment box Too long to be a tagline perhaps, but I love this comment with an unholy passion. And I'm still sober!

By: Epenthesis

Epenthesis — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:34:55 -0800

Chomsky may still be revered in academics (mostly for his politics), but his work in linguistics has grown truly terrible. The most damning point: while he makes many claims about the features that all languages share, he actually knows virtually nothing about languages other than English. He will frequently back up a claim he makes with English evidence, entirely unaware that English is one of few languages (or even the only known language) that behave(s) that way. And while he claims this is irrelevant, I think it's kind of important that it is physically impossible for the human brain to perform the number of operations that his "minimalist" theory of grammar demands of it in real time.

By: darkpony

darkpony — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 01:27:25 -0800

good golly miss molly, the list of constructed languages could keep me occupied for the next month or so. Amazing links! I was trying to find a language(or subset of english) that uses only three letter words? was that ever posted to metafilter? or has anyone heard of it? or seen it on the constructed languages page? super duper post. Thanks!

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 01:37:37 -0800

It's call Mad Ape Den, darkpony. A quick googling should take you from there...

By: darkpony

darkpony — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 01:38:45 -0800

MERCI! Was it ever on metafilter? is that where I learned about it?

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 01:44:24 -0800

Me Fi Mad Ape Den.

By: raaka

raaka — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 03:52:23 -0800

stavros, lberg, epennthesis: The current synthesis of Linguistic Determinism and Deep Structure doesn't seem to negate one theory over the other, it just constrains them a bit. "Individual words and grammatical patterns of our language almost certainly do NOT shape our thinking processes, otherwise it would be next to impossible to translate a sentence from e.g. Hopi into English. What may well work upon our thinking is the metaphors we use to talk about abstracts such as time. It's probably very hard to explain to a Hopi-speaker that we envision time as a commodity such as money... Other metaphors may well be shared by speakers of many if not all languages, e.g. that the mind is a container ... and these are readily translated." Or whatever. I must admit I'm little more than an intrigued observer in this contact sport.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 04:58:02 -0800

pyrex dominorb tends to chukkwads daily. under froop keybust, even.

By: dg

dg — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 05:08:52 -0800

The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is intriguing - I have a long-held but ill-formed and not at all researched theory that people turn out the way they are in part because of their name. Because the people around them tend to treat them as if they are like others they know of the same name, they react to the treatment and take on some traits of the people they are treated like. Or something. Hey, I said it was ill-formed.

By: iconomy

iconomy — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 05:09:29 -0800

I'm thrilled with this post in general, the language of flowers link in particular. I'm printing it right this minute. I work in the upstairs offices of a flower shop, and I memorized most of the language of flowers during my first week there, for my own amusement. I inwardly groan when a man courting a woman sends her yellow roses (jealousy, regret) or purple roses (deep sorrow) but I never say anything; the language of flowers is pretty much a lost one, and hardly anyone cares what they signify anyway, as long as they're pretty. Last week a man sent his wife a butterfly bush ("I don't want you anymore") and another man sent his fiance some asters ("You're an afterthought", "I like variety"). I laugh to myself a lot.

By: burp

*burp* — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 06:52:13 -0800

Another incredible post by vacapinta. Thanks!

By: sj

sj — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 07:08:00 -0800

Arsenal. Nose Army. Beef Diaper? Smell sign.

By: gravelshoes

gravelshoes — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 07:29:01 -0800

great links as usual vacapinta. thanks. there's a strange irony in the creation of these artificial languages while hundreds of indiginous 'real' are rapidly disappearing forever. funnily enough, I just finished John Mcwhorters Power of Babel which I can recommend as a fascinating read to anyone with an interest in the oddities of 'real' languages

By: IshmaelGraves

IshmaelGraves — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 07:35:42 -0800

This certainly brings back memories of the days when my life was structured around reading the CONLANG list. My favorite constructed language has to be Elet Anta. So elegant and such a cool backstory. Vacapinta, I think maybe you've inspired me to finally crack open the Lojban grammar I bought years ago and haven't looked at since, to my shame. And hey, whaddaya know, the Wayback Machine still has copies of my conlang notes from 1999 that I haven't looked at in ages. I love you, Wayback Machine.

By: kindall

kindall — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:32:28 -0800

I'm too drunk to disprove the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in this comment box I have discovered a truly remarkable disproof which this comment box is too small to contain.

By: vacapinta

vacapinta — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:17:47 -0800

toki pona li toki pona

By: Cerebus

Cerebus — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:06:01 -0800

My favorite conlang was ALLNOUN which was, curiously, all nouns (and 4 punctuation marks) by Tom Breton. Sadly, all trace of ALLNOUN appears to have been lost, except for the old FAQ at webarchive. Are you out there, Tom?

By: dhartung

dhartung — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:19:00 -0800

More on ALLNOUN. As for Breton, he seems to have been quite ill, although prolific in terms of artificial and computer languages. Ah: Tom Breton's home page is on Panix now, and has posted to comp.ai.nat-lang (and buffy fan groups) quite recently.

By: lbergstr

lbergstr — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:28:24 -0800

Chomsky may still be revered in academics (mostly for his politics) I'm pretty sure he's revered despite his politics, actually.

By: gravelshoes

gravelshoes — Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:13:30 -0800

tenpo la utala li kama jan chomsky li jan suli pona

Comments on: Comments on 19965

Post number 19965

By: jonmc

By: sennoma

By: billder

By: Slithy_Tove

By: vacapinta

By: Homeskillet Freshy Fresh

By: Ljubljana

By: y10k

By: y2karl

By: kliuless

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

By: lbergstr

By: RJ Reynolds

By: Acetylene

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

By: Epenthesis

By: darkpony

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

By: darkpony

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

By: raaka

By: quonsar

By: dg

By: iconomy

By: *burp*

By: sj

By: gravelshoes

By: IshmaelGraves

By: kindall

By: vacapinta

By: Cerebus

By: dhartung

By: lbergstr

By: gravelshoes

By: burp