Comments on: Comments on 20045

Post number 20045

headspace — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:50:56 -0800

God Save the Subjunctive. Because if he doesn't, who will? And there's more, oh so much more, to this intricate thing we call language. What does it mean?, where did it come from? And how would ancient Babylonians write your name, anyway?

By: alumshubby

alumshubby — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:59:57 -0800

Going through school, I noticed that the two groups of people who used subjunctive mood correctly and consistenly were my older professors and my more adept but less slang-proficient ESL (English as a second language) students. The former group wouldn't deign to violate the rules and the latter weren't comfortable enough with them yet to go around them.

By: soyjoy

soyjoy — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:11:36 -0800

If the subjunctive was to disappear, so what?

By: andrew cooke

andrew cooke — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:12:04 -0800

take it from someone suffering spanish - the last thing english needs is the subjunctive. it's already used so infrequently (even less in english english than american english, iirc) that it makes no sense to have it at all (note that almost all the examples are for "to be" - hardly any other verb changes). and i wish it would disappear from spanish as well (is that sentence subjunctive? i think it is in spanish...)

By: tommyspoon

tommyspoon — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:16:22 -0800

Moods like the subjunctive are one of the things that make the English language so interesting. Inefficient and difficult to master? Perhaps, but so many eloquent possibilities!

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:17:28 -0800

The subjunctive is disappearing? Allah be praised!

By: norm29

norm29 — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:25:28 -0800

...where did it come from? Obviously, language is too complex to have an "evolutionary origin," it must be the product of intelligent design. (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

By: xowie

xowie — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:38:42 -0800

Parents in all cultures use baby talk.

By: CreequeAlley

CreequeAlley — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:42:34 -0800

If the subjunctive was to disappear, so what? Clever. Very clever. :)

By: Orange Goblin

Orange Goblin — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:47:59 -0800

Er...whats the point, when NOT using them works just as well...its like people insisting on me using 'Bob and I' rather than 'me and Bob'. I know why its wrong, but that doesn't stop me (and Bob) from using it...

By: Ufez Jones

Ufez Jones — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:10:49 -0800

I agree completely with Andrew Cooke. As someone who has taken quite a few years of Spanish, I can say easily that the subjunctive it by far the most annoying and useless verb tense ever. And if you ask native speakers to explain the subjunctivo to you, usually all you get in return is a quizzical look and a bit of a grin. And yes, andrew, that sentence would be subjunctive in Spanish, since it starts with "I wish". Putos.

By: katieinshoes

katieinshoes — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:21:03 -0800

I happen to enjoy the subjective tense. It serves to separate the grammar snobs from the rest of you people.

By: emmling

emmling — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:40:44 -0800

Does Spanish have multiple subjunctives?

By: firestorm

firestorm — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:43:38 -0800

indeed. Orange Goblin, how did you survive high school? (assuming you went to an English speaking one) I have opinions of English - which I shall keep to myself ;)

By: canucklehead

canucklehead — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:05:03 -0800

In my mind, proper english is defined by consensus not by out of date tomes. Proper english is what the majority of english speakers use, regardless of what some old Queen's English text book says.

By: Ufez Jones

Ufez Jones — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:31:44 -0800

emmling, there is a past subjunctive and a present subjunctive (can't remember if there's a future tense as well). The present is used mainly when trying to say I wish, I hope, I want, etc. Things that are indefinite. It's not a huge change, but some of the verbs have very odd subjunctive combinations (usually the ones that have wierd conjugations as it is i.e. tener, ir, saber, etc. and the stem changers throw in an odd loop as always).

By: emmling

emmling — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:37:54 -0800

Thanks, Ufez. I was just wondering, as I've never taken Spanish. German has two, though.

By: kindall

kindall — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:50:26 -0800

It's true that there's a consensus, which varies from population to population, but there's also typically a "standard" which, if you deviate too far from it, marks you as uneducated, i.e., lower-class. For example, if you know that subjunctive is a mood, not a tense, you are among the creme-de-la-creme. ;)

By: hilker

hilker — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:04:20 -0800

Er...whats the point, when NOT using them works just as well...its like people insisting on me using 'Bob and I' rather than 'me and Bob'. "Bob and I" is misused much more often than "Bob and me."

By: Nicolae Carpathia

Nicolae Carpathia — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:43:50 -0800

I went to Providence, RI not long ago. I'd heard there was a local fish called scrod that was particularly tasty. I called a cab, and asked the driver "Would you take me somewhere I could get scrod?" and he said "That's the first time I've heard that question in the pluperfect subjunctive."

By: soyjoy

soyjoy — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:07:13 -0800

and he said "That's the first time I've heard that question in the pluperfect subjunctive."
Oh, he did not. But thanks for the laugh. (That's the first time I've heard that joke in any tense.)

By: dhartung

dhartung — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:56:47 -0800

soyjoy, it's an old one. Maybe even all the cabbies in scrod-plentiful areas know it ... I'm definitely a descriptivist in terms of language rather than a prescriptivist -- that is, I believe that things like pidgin or supposed hillbillyisms (ain't, axed) make the language richer. That doesn't mean, however, that I can't argue in favor of other things which keep the language richer -- like the subjunctive. Sure, it's used pretty rarely in conversational English; but some of the places it is used might surprise you. Certainly nobody's going to be sending postcards anytime soon inscrawled Wish you are here. There's formal, written language, and informal, conversational language, and they don't need to be treated exactly the same. The subjunctive will survive for many more generations in formal writing. I don't think people who routinely mangle Bob and me will ever realize how jarring it sounds in the wrong place (and I don't mean Bob and me're goin' down to the bar), but something of it may be conveyed by my niece's insistence, at middle school age, of using her as a generic pronoun, irrespective of gender. My nephew grabs a ball? Her won't give it back to me. At one level it's interesting, but there's a very important level at which language is simply communication. If I see a Bob and me in even informal writing it's just as jarring.

By: stinglessbee

stinglessbee — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:07:57 -0800

God Save the Subjunctive. Because if he doesn't, who will? In A.D. 2101 I, for one, would welcome our new subjunctive overlord. I'm sorry, it won't happen again.

By: macrone

macrone — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:53:41 -0800

and he said "That's the first time I've heard that question in the pluperfect subjunctive." Not only isn't it new, it isn't in the pluperfect.

By: nomis

nomis — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:22:04 -0800

Certainly nobody's going to be sending postcards anytime soon inscrawled "Wish you are here".
In fact, "were" in the context of "wish you were here" could also be indicative mood, imperfect tense. A better example is the distinction between: "I wish I was there (indicative)" versus "I wish I were there (subjunctive)". In my experience, most people would be more likely to use the indicative in that sentence, rather than the subjunctive.

By: oddovid

oddovid — Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:05:41 -0800

In fact, "were" in the context of "wish you were here" could also be indicative mood, imperfect tense. How? You can't say "I wish you were here the other day." You would say, instead, "I wish you had been here," creating a subjunctive by moving the tense one further into the past than you would in an indicative sentence. It looks the same, but it isn't.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:23:02 -0800

oddovid: nomis's point is that "you were here" (indicative) uses the same verb form, so "wish you were here" could be simply using the indicative for the subjunctive rather than really using the subjunctive; there's no formal way to tell, but the fact that most people use the former when there is a formal difference, as in the first singular (nomis's example: "I wish I was there"), suggests that dhartung is engaging in wishful thinking. And Dan -- is "Bob and me" really so jarring? Personally, I find the hypercorrect use of "Bob and I" where "me" is called for ("He called Bob and I to his office") much more jarring, and a good argument against the hopeless attempts of English teachers to hold back the tide of language change. ("Gee, Miss Throckmorton used to tan my hide for saying "Bob and me," so I'd better use "I" everywhere just to be on the safe side...")