November 3, 2002
8:57 AM Subscribe
Makes you think.... Read the first sentence in the "Special to the Web" paragraph at the bottom of the page. I'll see you inside...
This post was deleted for the following reason:
A remake of Valley of the Dolls with Julia Roberts? That is something to think about.
On-Topic: I say Crazy Fuckers.
posted by Stan Chin at 9:18 AM on November 3, 2002
On-Topic: I say Crazy Fuckers.
posted by Stan Chin at 9:18 AM on November 3, 2002
This week's National Enquirer (yes, really):
SNIPERS: THEIR SECRET GAY LIFE
And why it made them kill
posted by rxrfrx at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2002
SNIPERS: THEIR SECRET GAY LIFE
And why it made them kill
posted by rxrfrx at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2002
BGM: Surely it's not that hard to understand why members of minorities that are routinely vilified would prefer that an event that provides ready-made material for vilification not be usable against them. (I have no idea whether your user name stands for "black gay male"; if it does, your sang-froid and rationality are admirable -- but you must realize not everyone reacts that way.)
posted by languagehat at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2002
posted by languagehat at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2002
"beltway sniper is responsible for any crime"
Busy.
posted by feelinglistless at 9:28 AM on November 3, 2002
Busy.
posted by feelinglistless at 9:28 AM on November 3, 2002
I think they were, and going by (gay)bar conversations, lots of people do too....and rxrfrx--i'm surprised it took them this long!
and Julia is getting a little old! But who's going to play Neely? Sparkle, Neely! Sparkle!
posted by amberglow at 9:29 AM on November 3, 2002
and Julia is getting a little old! But who's going to play Neely? Sparkle, Neely! Sparkle!
posted by amberglow at 9:29 AM on November 3, 2002
languagehat's point is well taken. Also, I think some of society may try to pigeonhole the killers to relieve collective guilt: "See, my kind of people don't do that."
But, of course, killers are found in every segment of society. If these men are gay, they wouldn't be the first serial killers who were also gay. They also aren't the first multiple murderers to be black. Even if they turn out to be gay, people will forget that by the time of the next serial killer.
posted by ?! at 9:50 AM on November 3, 2002
But, of course, killers are found in every segment of society. If these men are gay, they wouldn't be the first serial killers who were also gay. They also aren't the first multiple murderers to be black. Even if they turn out to be gay, people will forget that by the time of the next serial killer.
posted by ?! at 9:50 AM on November 3, 2002
Homosexuals!....................they are all terrorist muslim fanatics.
(not really)
posted by JonnyX at 9:55 AM on November 3, 2002
(not really)
posted by JonnyX at 9:55 AM on November 3, 2002
It surprised many that they were black. It surprised some it was more than 1 person. It surprised few he was ex-military. I'm not sure I heard or read anyone's commentary on possible sexual orientation before they were found.
It doesn't matter if they are gay blacks (black gays?) or if they are orange-polka-dotted plant lovers. They are heinous scourges on society and deserve to die for their crimes.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:58 AM on November 3, 2002
It doesn't matter if they are gay blacks (black gays?) or if they are orange-polka-dotted plant lovers. They are heinous scourges on society and deserve to die for their crimes.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:58 AM on November 3, 2002
I rather doubt that they were, that we will ever find out and that this pathetic misbegotten excuse for a thread lasts past noon today PST. I mean, c'mon--one sentence in a gossip column--you might as well have linked the Enquirer.
posted by y2karl at 10:17 AM on November 3, 2002
posted by y2karl at 10:17 AM on November 3, 2002
languagehat:
"Surely it's not that hard to understand why members of minorities that are routinely vilified would prefer that an event that provides ready-made material for vilification not be usable against them."
Of course, it is, my point is that I was surprised by how strongly that preference is held by Mr. Musto, given that it would have never entered my mind to connect sexual preferences to non-sexual crimes. And I realize that "not everyone reacts that way", but those who do are pretty well fixed in their opinions. At what point does it become useless to worry about them and just try to live your life? The more you respond to scum like the National Enquirer, the harder you make it for yourself
posted by BGM at 10:19 AM on November 3, 2002
"Surely it's not that hard to understand why members of minorities that are routinely vilified would prefer that an event that provides ready-made material for vilification not be usable against them."
Of course, it is, my point is that I was surprised by how strongly that preference is held by Mr. Musto, given that it would have never entered my mind to connect sexual preferences to non-sexual crimes. And I realize that "not everyone reacts that way", but those who do are pretty well fixed in their opinions. At what point does it become useless to worry about them and just try to live your life? The more you respond to scum like the National Enquirer, the harder you make it for yourself
posted by BGM at 10:19 AM on November 3, 2002
Wow, the Village Voice really dropped the ball on Paul Wellstone's death, didn't they? Zero mention--what is up with that?
posted by y2karl at 10:27 AM on November 3, 2002
posted by y2karl at 10:27 AM on November 3, 2002
"this pathetic misbegotten excuse for a thread"
Discussing something as important as how members of different groups in society perceive how they are perceived by others is a "pathetic misbegotten excuse for a thread"? If we can't communicate our feelings and intentions to one another, we're pretty well doomed to continue wasting major portions of our lives on misunderstandings caused by laziness and apathy. Kinda like how you made a fool of yourself by reflexively posting a snotty dismissal of this discussion without bothering to understand what it was supposed to be about, y2karl....
posted by BGM at 10:28 AM on November 3, 2002
Discussing something as important as how members of different groups in society perceive how they are perceived by others is a "pathetic misbegotten excuse for a thread"? If we can't communicate our feelings and intentions to one another, we're pretty well doomed to continue wasting major portions of our lives on misunderstandings caused by laziness and apathy. Kinda like how you made a fool of yourself by reflexively posting a snotty dismissal of this discussion without bothering to understand what it was supposed to be about, y2karl....
posted by BGM at 10:28 AM on November 3, 2002
One sentence from a Michael Musto gossip column is a pathetic excuse for a link, no matter how you rationalize it, BGM. If I recall, this isn't supposed to be a chatroom for anyone's favorite hobbyhorse du jour.
posted by y2karl at 10:33 AM on November 3, 2002
posted by y2karl at 10:33 AM on November 3, 2002
oops, take back the take back--merelya link to the V V owned Minneapolis City Pages?--they really did drop the ball. And Evelyn " Champagne" King without a record contract?--It's A Shame indeed.
posted by y2karl at 10:40 AM on November 3, 2002
posted by y2karl at 10:40 AM on November 3, 2002
as opposed the Simon Doonan gossip/nostalgia/shopping column link, y2karl?
posted by amberglow at 10:41 AM on November 3, 2002
posted by amberglow at 10:41 AM on November 3, 2002
"About Metafilter
This website exists to break down the barriers between people, to extend a weblog beyond just one person, and to foster discussion among its members."
That's what I was trying to do.
"Thread: A thread (sometimes called a post) is one of the main messages you see on the MetaFilter homepage. These are the starting points for discussions, and are ideally unique,
interesting, valuable links accompanied by commentary that starts an engaging conversation."
I think I met part of the ideal.
"Comments: These are the heart of discussion at MetaFilter. Once a thread is started on the homepage, any member can contribute their voice to a conversation by posting comments. The best comments often include not just the member's opinion on a subject, but new links that relate to the topic being discussed, or personal experiences that might let other members see the topic in a new light."
y2karl: Any reasoned rebuttal? Or should I just write you off as a troll
posted by BGM at 10:57 AM on November 3, 2002
This website exists to break down the barriers between people, to extend a weblog beyond just one person, and to foster discussion among its members."
That's what I was trying to do.
"Thread: A thread (sometimes called a post) is one of the main messages you see on the MetaFilter homepage. These are the starting points for discussions, and are ideally unique,
interesting, valuable links accompanied by commentary that starts an engaging conversation."
I think I met part of the ideal.
"Comments: These are the heart of discussion at MetaFilter. Once a thread is started on the homepage, any member can contribute their voice to a conversation by posting comments. The best comments often include not just the member's opinion on a subject, but new links that relate to the topic being discussed, or personal experiences that might let other members see the topic in a new light."
y2karl: Any reasoned rebuttal? Or should I just write you off as a troll
posted by BGM at 10:57 AM on November 3, 2002
BGM: Of course, it is, my point is that I was surprised by how strongly that preference is held by Mr. Musto, given that it would have never entered my mind to connect sexual preferences to non-sexual crimes.
Do you not even know who Michael Musto is? Granted, his social criticism is usually embedded in his Bitchy-Queeny-Witty-Meany chatter, but it's there nonetheless and you only need to read a few more of his columns to understand that he'll call a queen a queen and a bigot a bigot without looking back. He's merely repeating what a lot of us heard around town in the days when the Sniper News Network was in full swing, namely that the sickest irony would be that the sniper turned out to be gay, thereby giving Mainstream America the opportunity to set the clocks back something like 1956 with regards to equal rights for homosexuals with full impunity because, after all, The Sniper Is A Domestic Terrorist (tm).
That said, this is a particularly crappy front page post. A link to the Musto with no context links, no background links, no point other than to "chat." Usenet is over thataways; this here's MetaFilter, how about some web content next time, huh?
posted by JollyWanker at 11:09 AM on November 3, 2002
Do you not even know who Michael Musto is? Granted, his social criticism is usually embedded in his Bitchy-Queeny-Witty-Meany chatter, but it's there nonetheless and you only need to read a few more of his columns to understand that he'll call a queen a queen and a bigot a bigot without looking back. He's merely repeating what a lot of us heard around town in the days when the Sniper News Network was in full swing, namely that the sickest irony would be that the sniper turned out to be gay, thereby giving Mainstream America the opportunity to set the clocks back something like 1956 with regards to equal rights for homosexuals with full impunity because, after all, The Sniper Is A Domestic Terrorist (tm).
That said, this is a particularly crappy front page post. A link to the Musto with no context links, no background links, no point other than to "chat." Usenet is over thataways; this here's MetaFilter, how about some web content next time, huh?
posted by JollyWanker at 11:09 AM on November 3, 2002
y2karl: Any reasoned rebuttal? Or should I just write you off as a troll
posted by BGM at 10:57 AM PST on November 3
With all due respect, BGM, y2karl is far from a troll!
any member has the right to ask 'does this post meet guideline' - all of us have different interpretations of what they mean.
I think it is questionable to link to an online 'gossip column', even when it voices the fears man of us may have. The point is: is the link substantial enough? If not, bolster it or wait. It's all about the quality.
GWM (",)
posted by dash_slot- at 11:10 AM on November 3, 2002
posted by BGM at 10:57 AM PST on November 3
With all due respect, BGM, y2karl is far from a troll!
any member has the right to ask 'does this post meet guideline' - all of us have different interpretations of what they mean.
I think it is questionable to link to an online 'gossip column', even when it voices the fears man of us may have. The point is: is the link substantial enough? If not, bolster it or wait. It's all about the quality.
GWM (",)
posted by dash_slot- at 11:10 AM on November 3, 2002
y2karl, personally, I suspect it's that the Voice doesn't represent the progressive wing of the Democratic party, but fringe elements such as the Greens who were viscerally opposed to Wellstone's supposed compromises to remain electable. Remember, the Greens were hoping to unseat him.
Or, it could be that they're a New York paper, which only devotes certain column-inches to national politics, and publishes on a Thursday -- by which time all the fireworks had passed, and it was essential to publish certain stuff before the elections.
BGM, one little observation in a Musto column is just plain weak. Even if it's true, you ought to have considered looking for an article that addressed the broader issue as entree to discussion. Your own musings were germane, but said perhaps as much as there is to say -- more of a personal blog thing that a Metafilter thing.
posted by dhartung at 11:11 AM on November 3, 2002
Or, it could be that they're a New York paper, which only devotes certain column-inches to national politics, and publishes on a Thursday -- by which time all the fireworks had passed, and it was essential to publish certain stuff before the elections.
BGM, one little observation in a Musto column is just plain weak. Even if it's true, you ought to have considered looking for an article that addressed the broader issue as entree to discussion. Your own musings were germane, but said perhaps as much as there is to say -- more of a personal blog thing that a Metafilter thing.
posted by dhartung at 11:11 AM on November 3, 2002
10:57PM: BGM pins medal on own chest for posting ideally unigue, interesting valuable link comprised of one sentence--Amberglow?--in Michael Musto gossip column.
posted by y2karl at 11:16 AM on November 3, 2002
posted by y2karl at 11:16 AM on November 3, 2002
Oh, I apologize for that last, BGM--and your thoughts were well spoken and not untrivial. It was the one sentence part that initally set me off. What everybody else said.
posted by y2karl at 11:19 AM on November 3, 2002
posted by y2karl at 11:19 AM on November 3, 2002
Do you not even know who Michael Musto is?
*snaps*
Get with it, honey...
posted by jonmc at 11:22 AM on November 3, 2002
*snaps*
Get with it, honey...
posted by jonmc at 11:22 AM on November 3, 2002
True, dhartung- but BGM as a single individual person is not likely to surf into the thoughtful reflection on this topic which he/she seeks. Some ideas are too complicated and thematic to be retrieved using a keyword search ... such as:
"Terrorism," says Mindell, "is a spirit of the times when there is a need of cultural change but it is blocked." I notice that my desire to act as a "terrorist" arises within me when I feel that the powers of the status quo are conscious of the need for social change, but are actively blocking that change with their fear and denial.In these moments of frustration I do understand the goal of the terrorist— "to awaken those in power to the necessity of social change ... if I want to be a powerful change agent in the world I must harness the power of my Inner Terrorist. I must listen to her and let her teach me how to open my heart to the suffering of others so that my actions can better energize an atmosphere of respect and compassion to support change."
That said, y2k is correct, Matt has suggested we use the existing sniper thread on the sidebar instead. (Also, what dhartung said.)
posted by sheauga at 11:25 AM on November 3, 2002
Just don't let them be: hippies / yuppies / militiamen / fishermen / American Indians / tramps / us ... or anyone we ever met!Maybe we don't want to go the "healing the inner terrorist" route expressed in the following passage.
"Terrorism," says Mindell, "is a spirit of the times when there is a need of cultural change but it is blocked." I notice that my desire to act as a "terrorist" arises within me when I feel that the powers of the status quo are conscious of the need for social change, but are actively blocking that change with their fear and denial.In these moments of frustration I do understand the goal of the terrorist— "to awaken those in power to the necessity of social change ... if I want to be a powerful change agent in the world I must harness the power of my Inner Terrorist. I must listen to her and let her teach me how to open my heart to the suffering of others so that my actions can better energize an atmosphere of respect and compassion to support change."
Where serial killers go for a quiet tippleWe're all connected - Wellstone's pilot had been laid off from Moussaoui's flight school. The question is how we use these connections between people to bring the world together so that things start to work out for everyone, and nobody needs to plot spectacular temper tantrums to get on the news.
Despite the guest list, people who drink at the Waterfront described themselves as warm, well-adjusted. Perhaps it was their accepting attitude that let so many notorious characters feel welcome.
"Live and let live," said Pete Davis, who is unemployed. "Of course, we only know after the fact that they're bad guys. I don't know. Maybe we should name sandwiches after them."
That said, y2k is correct, Matt has suggested we use the existing sniper thread on the sidebar instead. (Also, what dhartung said.)
posted by sheauga at 11:25 AM on November 3, 2002
here's an interesting Signorile column from back in the Andrew Cunnanan days about how media and society use good gays/bad gays labeling....scroll down for the Cunnanan stuff...
posted by amberglow at 11:33 AM on November 3, 2002
posted by amberglow at 11:33 AM on November 3, 2002
Here's an interesting New York TImes link of more than one sentence: The Mentor and the Disciple: How Sniper Suspects Bonded. The third sentence in the following is the only one in the article that touches on anything remotely related to this thread--
In the meantime, as the body count increased, the suburbs locked down and the manhunt intensified, Mr. Muhammad and Mr. Malvo kept returning to the Silver Spring Y.M.C.A. They acted exactly the same. Mrs. Douglas said Mr. Muhammad, a cut 6 feet 1 inches and 185 pounds, even flirted in the swimming pool one morning with a French woman, asking if he could swim in her lane and where she got her "cute accent."
"That's what's so weird about this thing," said Mrs. Douglas, 25. "After these guys supposedly killed people and had all of us terrified, they'd walk in here and be so normal. Just like, `Hey, how you doing?' "
Although a mentor-disciple relationship could have a sexual aspect--in Ancient Greece--I rather think it's a stretch here. But we all look at the work through the wrong end of our own telescopes.
posted by y2karl at 12:17 PM on November 3, 2002
In the meantime, as the body count increased, the suburbs locked down and the manhunt intensified, Mr. Muhammad and Mr. Malvo kept returning to the Silver Spring Y.M.C.A. They acted exactly the same. Mrs. Douglas said Mr. Muhammad, a cut 6 feet 1 inches and 185 pounds, even flirted in the swimming pool one morning with a French woman, asking if he could swim in her lane and where she got her "cute accent."
"That's what's so weird about this thing," said Mrs. Douglas, 25. "After these guys supposedly killed people and had all of us terrified, they'd walk in here and be so normal. Just like, `Hey, how you doing?' "
Although a mentor-disciple relationship could have a sexual aspect--in Ancient Greece--I rather think it's a stretch here. But we all look at the work through the wrong end of our own telescopes.
posted by y2karl at 12:17 PM on November 3, 2002
JollyWanker:
The link I posted made me think more than anything I've read here in a while (I haven't caught everything). Your name is well chosen. Perhaps if you ever grasp the difference between quantity and quality we might be able to talk.
dash_slot
"....any member has the right to ask 'does this post meet guideline' - all of us have different interpretations of what they mean."
No effing kidding! I have a minor epiphany about the mindset of gays in coping with their profile in straight society and try to get some feedback about it, and I get grief from twits who are bitter because I didn't post a link to some site with a bunch of Flash toys or a long article about the plight of the Monarch butterfly or something. To all those who are offended at being asked to think, EXCUUUUUUSE ME! (to quote the previously funny Steve Martin). And to all of you who can't comprehend what you read, this thread was intended to be about understanding how gay people cope with the perceptions of them by straights, and vice versa. The sniper thing just happened to spark it!
"With all due respect, BGM, y2karl is far from a troll!"
Well, comments like:
"Wow, the Village Voice really dropped the ball on Paul Wellstone's death, didn't they? Zero mention--what is up with that?
posted by y2karl at 10:27 AM PST on November 3 "
...are, if not out and out trollish, are at the least rude and pointless
posted by BGM at 12:33 PM on November 3, 2002
The link I posted made me think more than anything I've read here in a while (I haven't caught everything). Your name is well chosen. Perhaps if you ever grasp the difference between quantity and quality we might be able to talk.
dash_slot
"....any member has the right to ask 'does this post meet guideline' - all of us have different interpretations of what they mean."
No effing kidding! I have a minor epiphany about the mindset of gays in coping with their profile in straight society and try to get some feedback about it, and I get grief from twits who are bitter because I didn't post a link to some site with a bunch of Flash toys or a long article about the plight of the Monarch butterfly or something. To all those who are offended at being asked to think, EXCUUUUUUSE ME! (to quote the previously funny Steve Martin). And to all of you who can't comprehend what you read, this thread was intended to be about understanding how gay people cope with the perceptions of them by straights, and vice versa. The sniper thing just happened to spark it!
"With all due respect, BGM, y2karl is far from a troll!"
Well, comments like:
"Wow, the Village Voice really dropped the ball on Paul Wellstone's death, didn't they? Zero mention--what is up with that?
posted by y2karl at 10:27 AM PST on November 3 "
...are, if not out and out trollish, are at the least rude and pointless
posted by BGM at 12:33 PM on November 3, 2002
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posted by BGM at 9:13 AM on November 3, 2002