November 5, 2002
2:14 PM   Subscribe

The CIA is back in the business of committing assasinations on foreign soil. Meanwhile, the administration still objects to Israel's policy of targeted killings because of its effect on the peace process.
posted by alms (38 comments total)
 
What would you prefer, a big campaign to bring those people to Camp X-ray at Guantanamo Bay?
posted by halfhonk at 2:25 PM on November 5, 2002


A) The executive order, issued by President Gerald Ford in 1976, deals solely with the matter of political assassinations. al Queda is not a government or political organization; they're a terrorist group. Doesn't apply.

B) The United States is supposed to be facilitating a peace treaty between Israel and Palestine, and therefore are justified in disapproving of violence by either side. The United States is NOT facilitating a peace treaty between this country and al Queda. Doesn't apply.

Thanks for playing WHEEL...OF...TROLLING!

Coming up next, Whoopi Goldberg's NEWSFILTER SQUARES!
posted by Danelope at 2:26 PM on November 5, 2002


What Danelope said

Plus, the Yemeni thing is more than 24 hours old, it's like stale NewsFilter

The FPP's wording is almost embarassingly trollish

Nothing to see here? Move along?
posted by matteo at 2:40 PM on November 5, 2002


Nothing to see here? Move along?

Someone should start posting images so we can deep six this thread. I mean really, this thing sounds as bad as an NYT editorial.
posted by oissubke at 2:53 PM on November 5, 2002


Bullseye!
posted by dagny at 3:25 PM on November 5, 2002


The Israel hypocrisy aside, assassinations are probably a good thing, being better in general than fighting wars.

OTOH, fighting a nice Big Fat War over large parts of Asia and the Mid East may cause instability and chaos over much of Asia, thereby causing investment capital to come on Back Home to America. Welcome back, programming jobs, factory jobs, etc etc etc. A bunch of Americans get to buy their own homes and a second car, while millions of Asians, deprived of the income from the jobs that will not be there due to the war, will have skinny kids and reduced lifespans.

Could I bear the guilt? Yeah, probably....
posted by bannedThrice at 3:45 PM on November 5, 2002


A) The executive order, issued by President Gerald Ford in 1976, deals solely with the matter of political assassinations. al Queda is not a government or political organization; they're a terrorist group. Doesn't apply.

Or think of it this way: Al-Queda is a military organization that has engaged in attacks against the U.S., therefore the U.S. is justified in attacking Al-Queda and exempt from the Ford executive order.
posted by CoolHandPuke at 3:50 PM on November 5, 2002


while millions of Asians, deprived of the income from the jobs that will not be there due to the war, will have skinny kids and reduced lifespans.
posted by bannedThrice at 3:45 PM PST on November 5

"banned 3 times from Mefi for my political views...4 times, here I come...." [http://www.metafilter.com/user.mefi/17259]

keep up that sort of racist, obscene glee in others tribulations, it wont be long...
posted by dash_slot- at 4:16 PM on November 5, 2002


dash,

it won't be long, I'm pretty sure
posted by matteo at 4:27 PM on November 5, 2002


Some Ad Hominem Theorist said:
while millions of Asians, deprived of the income from the jobs that will not be there due to the war, will have skinny kids and reduced lifespans.
posted by bannedThrice at 3:45 PM PST on November 5
"banned 3 times from Mefi for my political views...4 times, here I come...." [http://www.metafilter.com/user.mefi/17259]

keep up that sort of racist, obscene glee in others tribulations, it wont be long...



Oh, great. I give my opinion, and I get attacked for being a racist. I thought that in the political calculus around here, one must be "white" to be a racist. Well, I don't know what you filled in on YOUR census form, but on mine, "White" was not checked....

Did you ever consider taking my statements literally?

BTW, there are still skinny kids over in Asia. I don't suppose you have any extra food in your fridge. Well, if you do, you can just skip laying the racist-guilt on me.
posted by bannedThrice at 4:40 PM on November 5, 2002


The FPP is certainly a troll, but it's still an important topic to discuss. First, had it been Osama in the car, would anyone argue? I suspect not. What's the difference then? Rank? Degree of guilt? Perception of Guilt? Face time on CNN?

I don't mind our government killing armed enemies when they can. But who decides who is terrorist, who is a soldier and who is simply a criminal?
posted by pejamo at 5:24 PM on November 5, 2002


I thought that in the political calculus around here, one must be "white" to be a racist.

Nope. Dictionary.com -
"1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race."

posted by dash_slot- at 5:32 PM on November 5, 2002


Did you ever consider taking my statements literally?

I remember my nephew saying the same thing.
posted by clavdivs at 6:07 PM on November 5, 2002


Everything is proceeding according to plan. Why the surprise?
posted by rushmc at 6:52 PM on November 5, 2002


A) The executive order, issued by President Gerald Ford in 1976, deals solely with the matter of political assassinations. al Queda is not a government or political organization; they're a terrorist group. Doesn't apply.

In this case (al Qaeda) the distinction is fairly clear to any rational person, however, even now I imagine there are those who would consider them a political group. This can be a pretty fine line and is dependent on where one stands, for example many who clearly see a fringe cult of psychotic Islamic fundamentalists as terrorists, may well have supported the Contras and IRA as freedom fighters.

B) The United States is supposed to be facilitating a peace treaty between Israel and Palestine, and therefore are justified in disapproving of violence by either side. The United States is NOT facilitating a peace treaty between this country and al Queda. Doesn't apply.

And the difference is? The Israelis take out someone who is bombing them, the US takes takes out, uh... someone who is bombing us. I fail to see how adopting tactics we disavow in an ally is 'facilitating peace'.

By adhering to a double standard we undermine our credibility and continue to isolate ourselves in the face of growing world concern. The military capability of the United States is a fearsome thing and this kind of action, engenders fear not only in the terrorists but in the hundreds of thousands of people who have the misfortune to live near them.

Maybe it's time for a bit of pragmatism and an awareness that we cannot possibly exterminate all those who pose a threat to the security of the United States, and that our efforts may be better expended fostering hope in the vast majority of the world that yearns for little more than food. Flaming Death from Above may not prove the best method.

We can pretty much do whatever we damn well please, it's not like anyone is going to stop us... but nobody likes a tyrant (regardless of how benevolent he views himself, Mussolini made the trains run on time) and bullied children turn into mass murdering psychos.
posted by cedar at 7:14 PM on November 5, 2002


Assuming this kill is as represented, I congradulate our government for fighting the war on terrorism. Tax dollars well spent.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:33 PM on November 5, 2002


"Former senator Warren B. Rudman (R-N.H.), who chaired the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board during the Clinton administration and co-chaired a recent presidential commission that examined homeland security...said he believed that as long as people have been identified by intelligence, the United States could carry out attacks within other countries even without the cooperation or approval of those governments."

What if a foreign government were doing the same in our country? We would never stand for it. That being said, I'm glad the guy's toast.
posted by azimuth at 10:05 PM on November 5, 2002


The executive order, issued by President Gerald Ford in 1976, deals solely with the matter of political assassinations. al Queda is not a government or political organization; they're a terrorist group. Doesn't apply.

In its assasination policy, Israel has targeted members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad - both terrorist groups according to the same definition (US-made btw) that defined Al Qaeda as a terrorist group. So, what's your point, why is Israel wrong to do it while the US is OK? And how's the wording of the original post a troll? Not asking it in jest, I fail to see what is it that you don't like - the Israel-US juxtaposition or...?
posted by bokononito at 11:16 PM on November 5, 2002


So, what's your point, why is Israel wrong to do it while the US is OK?

Israel is "wrong" (however you want to subjectively define "wrong") because, by committing assassinations, Israel is acting in defiance of the stated goal (peace accords) they apparently want the United States to mediate. The same could be said for the continuation of Palestinian suicide bombing.

As I stated before, the United States is not seeking a peace treaty with al Queda*. In fact, the United States government set its goals in direct opposition to peace: the complete dismantling and/or destruction of the al Queda network. Therefore, in attacking al Queda operatives, the United States is not violating any set goals and the basis for comparison is thereby invalidated.

Clear?

* Once again ignoring the fact that al Queda is NOT a political organization by any definition. They rely on the practices of intimidation, destruction, and murder. They are not a government, nation, or representative thereof, and have absolutely no real political power.
posted by Danelope at 12:46 AM on November 6, 2002


And the original post is a troll (and a shite thread in general) because the author took two completely unrelated articles, grabbed from two of the same tired major media outlets, and juxtaposed them in a deliberate attempt to fuel Yet Another Israel/Palestine/American Hypocrites Flamewar. Then again, this is par for the course...
posted by Danelope at 12:59 AM on November 6, 2002


maybe it is a troll, but many of the views elicited are, to me more than a bit worrying.

1. Don't you believe in the rule of law in the US? Has this man been convicted of any crime there or anywhere else?

2. Was this US territory?

3. Were the Yemenis in agreement?

Can't you see it is wrong for the US govt. to decide they can kill people at will anywhere in the world? So far the there has been very little intelligence that has beena ccurate about this and I don't want the CIA deciding who can live or die. BTW didn't they support the Contras?
posted by lerrup at 2:47 AM on November 6, 2002


Does this mean that if the Yemeni government discover someone they suspect of criminal or terrorist activity in US territory, they can also launch a military strike within America? I like these new rules. Kissinger had better watch out.
posted by tripitaka at 3:58 AM on November 6, 2002


Putting all this aside, did anyone notice that the American Government used an ATTACK DRONE to carry out this attack? A ROBOT Attack Drone?
posted by hughbot at 5:27 AM on November 6, 2002


Can't you see it is wrong for the US govt. to decide they can kill people at will anywhere in the world?

No, I can't see that--because it's not there. Especially since it's not "anywhere." but rather a lawless zone where primitive religious zealots are stealing our technology and using it against us.
posted by ParisParamus at 5:34 AM on November 6, 2002


Errr, not there? What's not there? was there any legal process carried out in this case? No

Was this US territory? No.

What's the difference between Yemen and anywhere else? Fundamentally nothing. What is this stealing technology business?

I know this has happened for years (except the drone, obviously) but this is no better that poisioned tipped umbrellas.
posted by lerrup at 5:54 AM on November 6, 2002


a lawless zone where primitive religious zealots are stealing our technology and using it against us.

this is borderline racist, Paris

Also, Yemen is actually a country, not a nameless shithole in the sand, and I'm willing to bet it is populated by human beings and not by cockroaches

"our technology" is a peach.

you're really enamored of the same rhetoric that extremist mullahs use against the Jews, do you know that?
but of course they're wrong and you're right
posted by matteo at 6:53 AM on November 6, 2002


Seriously, this is great - the political, military and economic world leader has shown the rest of the world governments how to do it - if there's someone you think is bad, anywhere in the world, you can send giant robots to kill them.

The only possible way to improve on this would have been flying the drone into an office building where these six men were working.
posted by tripitaka at 6:55 AM on November 6, 2002


I think this is a great idea.

Assassination of terrorist leaders has a proven track record in Israel. I mean, they have no terrorism there anymore, do they?
posted by moonbiter at 8:28 AM on November 6, 2002


Lerrup: ... this is no better than poison tipped umbrellas.

Georgi Markov was a novelist, playwright, journalist and political dissident. A dictator's agents killed him covertly to silence his political voice.

Abu Ali was a senior Al Qaeda operative, a major terrorist who has killed at least 17 Americans and would have killed again. A democracy's agents killed him openly to stop him from killing more of its citizens.

How could anyone possibly equate the two?
posted by Hieronymous Coward at 1:01 PM on November 6, 2002


It's amazing how creative certain people will get in attempting to articulate why bad people who deserve to die don't deserve to die.
posted by ParisParamus at 1:04 PM on November 6, 2002


Assassination of terrorist leaders has a proven track record in Israel. I mean, they have no terrorism there anymore, do they?

Such a cute, lame comment. Israel has less terrorism than it would otherwise have. We also have one less nuclear explosion than we would all otherwise have thanks to the Israelis' courage and clairvoyance.
posted by ParisParamus at 1:11 PM on November 6, 2002


Okay, I am not defending the people who were killed, I know nothing about them very much, if there has been more info released, please tell me. I am not saying they are innocent or blame free.

I am saying that if you want to preach about the rule of law, justice, democracy and fairness you do not rock up in someone else's country and kill people. Full stop. We stop believing you.

Who deserves to die? I could list several Americans who in my opinion do. Does that mean I can turn up at any time and blow them away? No, I didn't think you'd like that.

(Henry Kissinger, Oliver North, the George Bushes, the boards of Union Carbide, Exxon, Mc Donald's, that man with the squinty eyes, Newt Gingrich, Teleevangilists, etc.)
posted by lerrup at 3:05 PM on November 6, 2002


I am saying that if you want to preach about the rule of law, justice, democracy and fairness you do not rock up in someone else's country and kill people. Full stop. We stop believing you.

"Rule of law" assumes a country with one, and with the power and will to enforce such. Yemen is clearly not such a place. Accordingly we should be free to do what we see fit there.
posted by ParisParamus at 3:09 PM on November 6, 2002


Paris: even the CIA's own World Factbook points out that Yemen has an elected government with a variety of political parties and a functioning court system. What more should they have?
posted by Emera Gratia at 3:25 PM on November 6, 2002


No one can find any evidence posted then.

ParisParamus, who chose you to run our world?
posted by lerrup at 3:28 PM on November 6, 2002


Israel has less terrorism than it would otherwise have.

This is unprovable speculation.

We also have one less nuclear explosion than we would all otherwise have thanks to the Israelis' courage and clairvoyance.

Reference please.
posted by moonbiter at 8:37 PM on November 6, 2002


Emera Gratia: even the CIA's own World Factbook points out that Yemen has an elected government ...

...who approved the strike and cooperated with US intelligence.
posted by Hieronymous Coward at 4:42 PM on November 7, 2002


By the way, apparently a member of the Traitorous-American community was killed in the strike.

This is a good thing, IMO: it shows that you work with terrorists, you're a target -- regardless of who you are or where you come from.
posted by Hieronymous Coward at 4:52 PM on November 7, 2002


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