Roswell Smoking Gun?

November 24, 2002 8:26 PM

Roswell Smoking Gun?Army General said to be holding document in press photo (Not the one they used obviously) that reveals proof of cover-up: "Using a digital photo scanner to enlarge and enhance words printed on the folded piece of paper Ramey held, and using another computer program to select the most likely words, researcher David Rudiak, who has a Ph.D. in physics from UC Berkeley, found two key phrases: "the victims of the wreck" and "in the 'disc' they will ship."
posted by Hilfy (36 comments total)

I've always kind of been on the sidelines as far as ETs go. Do I think they're out there? Absolutely.... are they visiting us? Who knows...I've seen a few things in the sky I sure could not explain but without seeing the little green buggers with my own eyes I'll always be a skeptic. As Mulders poster says, "I Want To Believe"


I also never went really one way or the other with Roswell until now. First time something like this has come about...very ingenious. I saw the TV special on the SCI FI channel and I have to admit after seeing the letter blown up it's easy to see some words. Really makes one wonder and, if real, makes the Gov a Big Fat Liar. Well..that kind of goes without saying.
posted by Hilfy at 8:34 PM on November 24, 2002

I think there's got to be life out there too, but I strongly doubt that it's dropped by our neighborhood. I missed the special, though. Were any skeptics convinced?
posted by Songdog at 8:37 PM on November 24, 2002

Were any skeptics convinced?

Yes. All of them. Every last one.
posted by gsteff at 8:40 PM on November 24, 2002

The guys in the picture look like a bunch of hicktown clowns named Barney holding a tinfoil and wood stick balloon.
posted by stbalbach at 8:44 PM on November 24, 2002

Apparently I missed the meeting that said that anybody that vehiculates in a circular craft cannot come from Earth. I hate it when I sleep in and miss these important bits of info.
posted by fatbobsmith at 8:44 PM on November 24, 2002

An excerpt, a book.

New York Post, Sunday, Nov. 23, 1997 (Page 12)...excerpted:

"Bill wanted UFO probe: Hubbell book"

by Deborah Orin
Washington Bureau Chief

President Clinton was intrigued by UFOs and wanted to know if they really
existed, says a new book the his golfing pal, disgraced Justice Department
official Webb Hubbell.
Hubbell says finding out about UFOs was one of the top priorities Clinton
gave him in sending him over to a job as one of Attorney General Janet Reno's
top deputies.
"'Webb,' (Clinton) had said, ' if I put you over at Justice I want you to
find the answers to two questions for me,'" Hubbell recounts.
"'One, who killed JFK. And two, are there UFOs.'
"Clinton was dead serious. I had looked into both, but wasn't satisfied
with the answers I was getting," Hubbell adds.

posted by four panels at 8:47 PM on November 24, 2002

Hmmm, David Rudiak is not a noted impartial researcher.
But on the plus side he lets everyone know that he doesn't have a PhD as well as giving a cute description of his analysis.
posted by meech at 8:48 PM on November 24, 2002

The 'hick' on the left is Gen Ramey, the base commander. Remember..it's 1947..everyone looked like hicks compared to today.

Fatbob:

Well, considering no one, with the possible and remote exception of the Nazi's during WWII, started even trying to develop anything remotely 'disc' shaped until the 50's. Also, why would they still claim it was a secret project like Mogul or what ever they came out and said it was a few years ago? I hardly doubt that even if it was some persons unknown were flying around in an improbable disc that they would bother to keep it secret for this amount of time. Sorry, there wasn't anyone flying around in saucers in 47.

Meech:

Nice of him! :) Looks like the reporting reporter inflated things a bit!
posted by Hilfy at 9:13 PM on November 24, 2002

Slightly more of the text of the "Ramey memo", and a hint of the analytical process, and another narrative approach: painstaking substitution of phrases against phrases like

XXXXX XXX XXXXXXXXXXXXX XX XXX X XXXXXXXXX

... in other words, gibberish based on the blobs they see. Getting from there to wholly deciphered phrases is highly speculative.

This appears to be Rudiak's website -- which formerly had a high-resolution image, rotated and cleaned up, of the memo; and some context from semi-competitors in the "field" of Roswell investigation, at least showing the great lengths to which they'll go following even the slightest lead. As a hobby, it's expensive to get up to speed.
posted by dhartung at 9:43 PM on November 24, 2002

SongDog>I think there's got to be life out there too, but I strongly doubt that it's dropped by our neighborhood.

Well, consider Fermi's Paradox, which points out that given the size and age of our galaxy, we should have encountered galactic "settlers" a long, long time ago...

..unless we're alone. Or they just prefer to leave us alone, at least until the Vogons need to build that intergalactic highway. Or (cue high-pitched music) they're already here, but don't want to make a big thing about it.
posted by hashashin at 9:46 PM on November 24, 2002

Ridiculous. What looks like a "memo" in the hands of General Ramey is actually a simple weather balloon.
posted by Hildago at 10:04 PM on November 24, 2002

Remember..it's 1947..everyone looked like hicks compared to today.

Au contraire, it's more that few then looked like the larvae of epicene mantidae. Look at pictures of Kerouac at the time, Neal Casady or the young Marlon Brando, then...
They don't look like that now, the little elf boys.
posted by y2karl at 10:40 PM on November 24, 2002

No one has ever seen God, but (almost) everyone believes in Him.

Millions of people have seen UFOs, but (almost) no one believes in them.

Sure, they might not be here. Or have been here. But what if they are, or were?

Does it make sense that we went all the way to the moon, picked up some rocks, and never went back? I don't know. That just pegs my bullcrap meter as much as mentioning UFOs does to most other people.
posted by geekhorde at 10:46 PM on November 24, 2002

dhartung's third link (google cache), above is altogether interesting, and introduces a rather important question, "who was actually the author of the memo?". I personally found it a bit strange that General Ramey would choose to meet with a reporter and photographer while casually carrying around a top-secret plain text communication...
posted by taz at 11:31 PM on November 24, 2002

1. Said David Rudiak is a UFOlogist, not a disinterested scientist. Among other things, he has reviewed the Fox alien autopsy video. His doctorate is in optometry. This qualifies him to work at a Lenscrafters. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

2. The technique makes the wildly inaccurate assumption that OCR is more accurate than the human eye. Scan printed courier 12 into a machine, clear and perfectly aligned, and you will get lots of recognition errors. The idea that a computer told him that was disc is laughable. How many times did he have to run it through when it said dial, or riot?
posted by condour75 at 11:59 PM on November 24, 2002

geekhorde: There is nothing but rocks in the moon, what do you think we should be doing in there? Get more rocks? Building a base, when we can barely even support one on earth orbit?
Millions of people have seen UFOs? Millions of people may have seen weird lights and what-not. There are countless amateurs astronomers in the world. These are people who spend their free-time watching the sky, looking for lights and they see conspicuously few UFOs. And what condour75 said.
posted by lazy-ville at 12:18 AM on November 25, 2002

Since Hashashin was too lazy to pick through his google search, I'll share what looked to me like a good summary of Fermi's paradox. I have to say, I find this paradox unconvincing and even lame. There are all sorts of reasons intelligent life wouldn't want to spread its seed all over the galaxy. Perhaps that's hard to understand for someone who spent his life building a nuclear reactor in a squash court.

I'd put this paradox in the same category as that other paradox that says "because you're alive now and lots of people were alive before you, chances are the world will come to an end during your lifetime." (sorry, I couldn't find the link to the MeFi thread on that other lame paradox.)
posted by alms at 1:44 AM on November 25, 2002

Well, Mr. Fermi smartypants, what if the technological/spiritual journey to interstellar travel inevitably detours to a destination so wondrous and compelling that the prospect of slogging through the local rock collection becomes a dreary, forgotten footnote?

(Another logic-free speculation from the spiral zone.)
posted by Opus Dark at 2:23 AM on November 25, 2002

Can anyone explain to me why it is that these aliens, who presumably are the product of evolution on another planet many millions of light years away, turned out to be human-like. What are the odds of that? What are the odds of life on another planet reaching a stage of such advancement that they can build space craft at all? Of all the millions upon billions of species that have existed on earth, only humans have managed it, and even then have only disembarked on the closest lump of rock. That suggests that intelligent life is pretty rare.

Also, how have they managed to make craft that travel so fast that they can get to earth from their planet millions of light years away before they die? Or do they live for thousands of years? How come they've invented space craft but haven't found out how to communicate through radio signals?
posted by Summer at 2:38 AM on November 25, 2002

I don't personally believe in aliens for the following simple reason:
It would take so much energy output (be it tradtional rockets, or some other newfangled technology - plasma,magnetism, whatever it would still have to obey the laws of physics) to travel the vast interstellar distances in space that we would see them coming a good few thousand years before they even got here.

Also, I have difficulty believing they'd travel all this way just to remain hidden, mutilate the odd cow and anal probe some drunk.
posted by PenDevil at 5:03 AM on November 25, 2002

"I have difficulty believing they'd travel all this way just to remain hidden, mutilate the odd cow and anal probe some drunk"

Maybe they belonged to a fraternity.
posted by mecran01 at 5:30 AM on November 25, 2002

Yes, but PenDevil, remember that we don't yet know ALL the laws of physics.
posted by Nothing at 5:38 AM on November 25, 2002

Millions of people have seen UFOs? Millions of people may have seen weird lights and what-not.

Weird lights and what-not that aren't explainable are Unidentified Flying Objects, no?

from their planet millions of light years away before they die?

Nearest star to ours is only 4 light years away.
posted by tolkhan at 5:56 AM on November 25, 2002

They are not aliens. They are people from the future. Think about it. Coupled with mecran01's fraternity insight, this explains much. Frat Boys From The Future.
posted by Fabulon7 at 6:18 AM on November 25, 2002

Nothing: We know the basic laws, which are pretty much universal and which govern 99.99% of everything including the 4 fundamental forces of nature (the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, electromagnetism and gravity). Any kind of propulsion would have to use at least one of these (most likely electromagnetism or gravity seeing that the others work on the atom scale only) and we can pretty much detect those quite easily.

For instance if they were using wormholes to travel the energy and mass required to open one up one practical enough for travel is HUGE and we would definitely know about it if it came anywhere within a few light years of us. Or If they were using some massive rockets, the glow would be so bright we could probably see them in full daylight.

And all this is ignoring the fact that travel (at least conventional travel unlike wormholes etc) is limited by the speed of light, which means ships would have to be massive to support crews on their thousand year journey around the universe.

Now I must admit that I'm sure somewhere in the universe there is some other lifeform. However, I do not believe they have reached us nor do I believe they will reach us for a helluva long time (a good few million years at least). We'd be hearing their radio signals for millenia before they rocked up.
posted by PenDevil at 6:22 AM on November 25, 2002

Well, considering no one, with the possible and remote exception of the Nazi's during WWII, started even trying to develop anything remotely 'disc' shaped until the 50's...Sorry, there wasn't anyone flying around in saucers in 47.

You know this how?

I hardly doubt that even if it was some persons unknown were flying around in an improbable disc that they would bother to keep it secret for this amount of time.

Unless, maybe, it was really poorly designed and crashed into the desert upon take-off?

Of all the millions upon billions of species that have existed on earth, only humans have managed it, and even then have only disembarked on the closest lump of rock. That suggests that intelligent life is pretty rare.

Or maybe we're just not that bright, relatively speaking.
posted by jpoulos at 6:27 AM on November 25, 2002

Summer> Remember just a few hundred years ago we thought the earth was flat. Besides that, what is the definition of intelligent life? Dolphins are considered to have a level of intelligence yet we are unable to communicate well with them, though it is obvious that they communicate with each other. What has always been curious to me is how vain the human race is....with the vastness of the Universe and how little we really know about it, that we think we are the end all, be all of it. I find it hard to believe that whoever or whatever created this vast Universe, put us at the top of the intelligence quota. Perhaps to another race of beings we are not intelligent at all. What if we are the dolphins to them..."oh look how cute they are...and they seem to be communicating with each other, see how them move thier lips and nod tier heads". I have never seen a UFO, nor do I care to. I just find it hard to believe that "we" are the Masters of the Universe.
posted by SweetIceT at 6:44 AM on November 25, 2002

tolkhan, etc - yes, UFO means unidentified flying object (although it seems to be used to refer to any strange thing we see in the sky whether flying or not), but remember that most us see plenty of stuff up there that we can't personally explain. Like, for instance, why that stuff above us looks like the MeFi background. I'd bet that most of the people here can't explain that one in detail, or the extremely varied clouds and contrails, or innumerable and beautiful atmospheric optical effects such as sundogs, glories, etc.

That's one reason why I'm unimpressed by "eyewitness reports"--people often see stuff they don't expect or understand and blow it out of proportion. "UFO sightings" routinely increase when there's a blackout in a major metropolitan area and people who've never really seen the night sky before freak out when they do. I'd bet that some reports are attributable simply to the diffractive glints and fringing from people's eyeglasses, contact lenses, and eyelashes.
posted by Songdog at 6:44 AM on November 25, 2002

What caught my attention was
"A photograph taken July 8, 1947, in Fort Worth, Texas, by JAMES BOND Johnson of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram (...)"

Fermi was right. There are no extraterrestrials here or elsewhere, except of course for Michael Jackson.
posted by 111 at 6:49 AM on November 25, 2002

We know the basic laws, which are pretty much universal

Isn't that part of the Cosmological Principle, that the universe is homogenous and the laws of physics are the same throughout? Isn't the Cosmological Principle only assumed to be true?

One of my chemistry professors at university spent the first day of class discussing a little of the history of science, particularly that (as he said) late-nineteenth century physicists had thought they'd discovered just about everything, and that all that remained to do for the most part was refine calculations and make them more accurate. The professor called them arrogant for thinking we'd figured everything out, and explained that science is ongoing and that we never know everything. Then he spent 15 minutes railing on people who believe that faster-than-light travel is possible and that extraterrestrial life had ever visited this planet, saying that we know it's impossible.


Unless, maybe, it was really poorly designed and crashed into the desert upon take-off?

Yep, because they'd never be able to recover from that embarrassment.
posted by tolkhan at 7:08 AM on November 25, 2002

I find it hard to believe that whoever or whatever created this vast Universe, put us at the top of the intelligence quota. Perhaps to another race of beings we are not intelligent at all.

SIT, intelligence is just an adaptation like any other. Humans appear to have a particularly rare type. I say that because it hasn't happened with other animals on this planet despite billions of years of evolution. Other adaptations, such as eyes, have evovled many times over. Self-awareness and a talent for technology haven't. I don't think it makes us special, just rare. Dolphins are our close relations. Their intelligence is related to ours. It didn't evolve independently.

And what if mammals had never evolved? What if the dinosaurs hadn't died out? Would another kind of animal have developed inteligence? You can't say. Maybe intelligence is a statistical fluke.

Even if another species has evolved a technology-creating type of intelligence, the odds that it is so advanced it can invent machines that can travel over billions of light years of space is so remote as to be laughable. And we haven't picked up any of their communications? And they look like humans? Yes, OK.
posted by Summer at 7:12 AM on November 25, 2002

who's planning a holiday in chechnya right now ?
ladies and gents i announce :
sgt. serenitys dead kennedys theorem
namely that one of prerequisites for alien intelligence would
be the sense not to visit , or contact anyone from earth whatsoever.
so the fact that no aliens have visited earth proves
intelligent alien life exists.

and now for the cure for cancer thread.....(leaves room)
posted by sgt.serenity at 7:32 AM on November 25, 2002

thank you all for making me smile this morning and here is a highlight of the hiliarity:

painstaking substitution of phrases against phrases like

XXXXX XXX XXXXXXXXXXXXX XX XXX X XXXXXXXXX

They don't look like that now, the little elf boys.

Well, Mr. Fermi smartypants,

Also, I have difficulty believing they'd travel all this way just to remain hidden, mutilate the odd cow and anal probe some drunk.

who's planning a holiday in chechnya right now ?
posted by clavdivs at 7:55 AM on November 25, 2002

Space travel probably isn't an inevitable result of intelligence. Native Americans are just as intelligent as anyone else, but I doubt they would have ever explored space if the Europeans hadn't colonized the Americas.
posted by Doug at 9:54 AM on November 25, 2002

and now for the cure for cancer thread.....(leaves room)

Brought to you by Sgt. Serenity's Stuff Your Own Haggis Bar !
posted by y2karl at 9:58 AM on November 25, 2002

och aye, git some haggis doon yir thrapple and nae loon wull howk sand oan yir gizz evir agin!
posted by sgt.serenity at 6:26 PM on November 25, 2002