to integrate or not?
December 5, 2002 10:58 AM Subscribe
the dangers posed by the call to integration an interesting article explaining why some muslims harbour reservations regarding integration into western society.
I agree gwint. Can anyone find articles on the subject that come from a more understanding (or at least neutral) place?
posted by mathowie at 11:12 AM on December 5, 2002
posted by mathowie at 11:12 AM on December 5, 2002
anecdote: I had been teaching a college course. Had a Pakistan Muslem doctor, a woman. When I wished her a happy Thanksgiving, she said: we don't celebrate Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving, like 4h July etc are not religious holidays but days celebrated in America. How would celbrating or honoring such days be incosistent with one's religion? Why live here if you will not honor our secular days that we believe in, honor, support?
posted by Postroad at 11:18 AM on December 5, 2002
posted by Postroad at 11:18 AM on December 5, 2002
On what basis is the neutrality of the article questioned?, (not quite sure what is inferred by neutrality anyway) I feel it is quite important to be fully aware of a wide range of opinions, read and ruminate.
posted by johnnyboy at 11:18 AM on December 5, 2002
posted by johnnyboy at 11:18 AM on December 5, 2002
If they are against integrating then why do they flock their to seek work, escape poverty or human rights abuses? If they find the economics, high standards of living and tolerance appealing then they must realise that it is all due, in part, to the integration of everyone in society.
posted by PenDevil at 11:21 AM on December 5, 2002
posted by PenDevil at 11:21 AM on December 5, 2002
johnnyboy, I think it is important to be fully aware of a wide range of opinions, however this article highlights a voice that is against integration, and even going so far as trying to expose the 'bankruptcy of Western civilization.'
While it's good to know there are these voices, I'm sure there are other voices as well. Articles like this will result in a knee-jerk reaction from people like me saying: 'If you don't want to integrate, why are you here?'
posted by sebas at 11:24 AM on December 5, 2002
While it's good to know there are these voices, I'm sure there are other voices as well. Articles like this will result in a knee-jerk reaction from people like me saying: 'If you don't want to integrate, why are you here?'
posted by sebas at 11:24 AM on December 5, 2002
PenDevil you must understand that this is an opinion piece written by someone who looks to be native-born. The vast majority of Muslim immigrants have no interest in "re-establishing the Caliphate" or increasing the role of religion in public life in their host country. Virtually all immigrants come for economic reasons to establish a new life, and practice their faith quietly (if at all).
posted by cell divide at 11:26 AM on December 5, 2002
posted by cell divide at 11:26 AM on December 5, 2002
Oh. Nevermind. I thought you meant this kind of integration.
posted by trigfunctions at 11:26 AM on December 5, 2002
posted by trigfunctions at 11:26 AM on December 5, 2002
why are you where?. Pardon me not trying to be rude but we are conversing using the internet, this does extend worldwide I am told.
posted by johnnyboy at 11:30 AM on December 5, 2002
posted by johnnyboy at 11:30 AM on December 5, 2002
frankly, most of the muslims i've met/known over the years have been perfectly and transparently "integrated" -- observably no different from anyone else in a normative way. of course, they don't write fundie horseshit articles decrying western "corruption" because they have better things to think about.
on preview, what sebas said. and what cell divide said.
this reminds me of this article i read in jewsweek a while back where some father came down pretty hard on his son for marrying a gentile, talking about what a vile betrayal it was -- and i remember thinking, ugh! the jews i know certainly don't talk like that. it all depends on who's doing the talking.
posted by donkeyschlong at 11:31 AM on December 5, 2002
on preview, what sebas said. and what cell divide said.
this reminds me of this article i read in jewsweek a while back where some father came down pretty hard on his son for marrying a gentile, talking about what a vile betrayal it was -- and i remember thinking, ugh! the jews i know certainly don't talk like that. it all depends on who's doing the talking.
posted by donkeyschlong at 11:31 AM on December 5, 2002
Here as in the country the article was about and where I live, the UK.
I work at a large company where we have a lot of people from different religions and nationalities. I do not know of any problems there. Are we all the same? No, but do we work together and create a good atmosphere? Yes I do think so. (not mentioning £5 billion pound debt here ;) )
posted by sebas at 11:34 AM on December 5, 2002
I work at a large company where we have a lot of people from different religions and nationalities. I do not know of any problems there. Are we all the same? No, but do we work together and create a good atmosphere? Yes I do think so. (not mentioning £5 billion pound debt here ;) )
posted by sebas at 11:34 AM on December 5, 2002
Why should someone conform to what YOU believe it is to be American? I thought tolerance and freedom meant the right to do what you believe is right and not have to do what you don't, I guess I was wrong, can someone please give me a list of all the things I must do/say/worship/celebrate to be a proper American? Where can I get my skin color lightened? Where can I learn English and get rid of my outrageous accent? Can someone help me find a nice Protestant church to join? What would make a good WASPY last name to change mine to? Where can I find clothes to replace my native costume? Can someone please help me? I desperately want to be a proper American!
posted by Pollomacho at 11:36 AM on December 5, 2002
posted by Pollomacho at 11:36 AM on December 5, 2002
excellent sebas, I am lucky enough to enjoy the same working atmosphere. I happen to agree totally with what you wrote as well as cell divide. I merely posted as I found the article interesting and stimulating, possibly it may have been a tad presumptious to think that this might not have engendered "well if ya don't like it fuck off" type responses.
posted by johnnyboy at 11:41 AM on December 5, 2002
posted by johnnyboy at 11:41 AM on December 5, 2002
Cheers johnny, for people still interested I was writing this rant before I hit preview:
I am not talking about being the same as the people in the country you live in. I'm talking about having respect for the people around you and their believes.
I moved to this country only a year ago, do I respect the customs and believes of the people here? Yes I do. Do they respect mine? Yes they do.
However, any fundy, be it christian or muslim doesn't show any tolerance whatsover, as the second article points out: Fortuyn was anti-muslim because muslims didn't respect him.
And that's what bugs me. If this article was written by a christian professor I would have the same response. I live here because it's a tolerant society, however I can, and will be intolerant of intolerance.
posted by sebas at 11:48 AM on December 5, 2002
I am not talking about being the same as the people in the country you live in. I'm talking about having respect for the people around you and their believes.
I moved to this country only a year ago, do I respect the customs and believes of the people here? Yes I do. Do they respect mine? Yes they do.
However, any fundy, be it christian or muslim doesn't show any tolerance whatsover, as the second article points out: Fortuyn was anti-muslim because muslims didn't respect him.
And that's what bugs me. If this article was written by a christian professor I would have the same response. I live here because it's a tolerant society, however I can, and will be intolerant of intolerance.
posted by sebas at 11:48 AM on December 5, 2002
Pollomacho: integration into society != conformity
posted by PenDevil at 11:49 AM on December 5, 2002
posted by PenDevil at 11:49 AM on December 5, 2002
Damn you pendevil, it took me 10 lines to write your little equation ;)
posted by sebas at 11:52 AM on December 5, 2002
posted by sebas at 11:52 AM on December 5, 2002
Switch a few words and this sounds like Pat Robertson, or Fred Phelps, or Jerry Falwell or any other screaming fundie asshole you can name. Fundies of a feather flock together, if you will.
This author is far more intolerant than he makes out the West to be. In fact, part of his problem is Western tolerance, as seen in his references to allowing gay marriage and euthenasia. This is not to say that the West is always tolerant, but its tolerant of a wider range of beliefs/ways of life/actions/words than this person.
posted by thewittyname at 11:55 AM on December 5, 2002
This author is far more intolerant than he makes out the West to be. In fact, part of his problem is Western tolerance, as seen in his references to allowing gay marriage and euthenasia. This is not to say that the West is always tolerant, but its tolerant of a wider range of beliefs/ways of life/actions/words than this person.
posted by thewittyname at 11:55 AM on December 5, 2002
I thought tolerance and freedom meant the right to do what you believe is right and not have to do what you don't
wow. I've never met anyone who had that definition of "tolerance and freedom" before. sounds like feudal monarchy to me, and hey, us Americans have never been too big on absolute power or the divine right of kings (well, most of us, that is)
the site hosting this article (http://www.muslimstudent.org.uk/) uses very similar arguments, some on the same page as such gems as :
It is a historical fact which no-one doubts that the Islamic world used to be one single state
The uniting of Muslim includes the land that muslims lost control of, including, Turkistan, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece and the land that Muslims had lost like Andalous (Spain).
Fighting and exterminating Israel is an obligation even if the Muslims fighting are Arab armies loyal to regimes of unbelief, like the Egyptian soldiers when they fought Israel during the Sinai war. If any army from any Arab country marched into another country and demolished the borders and unified the land, like Iraq did in Kuwait, or as the Syrian army will hopefully do to Lebanon, we should act to preserve the unity and continue our efforts to overthrow the unbelieving regimes and rid the muslim lands of unbeliever colonialism
what lovely ideas! let's tolerate them!
posted by badzen at 12:02 PM on December 5, 2002
wow. I've never met anyone who had that definition of "tolerance and freedom" before. sounds like feudal monarchy to me, and hey, us Americans have never been too big on absolute power or the divine right of kings (well, most of us, that is)
the site hosting this article (http://www.muslimstudent.org.uk/) uses very similar arguments, some on the same page as such gems as :
It is a historical fact which no-one doubts that the Islamic world used to be one single state
The uniting of Muslim includes the land that muslims lost control of, including, Turkistan, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece and the land that Muslims had lost like Andalous (Spain).
Fighting and exterminating Israel is an obligation even if the Muslims fighting are Arab armies loyal to regimes of unbelief, like the Egyptian soldiers when they fought Israel during the Sinai war. If any army from any Arab country marched into another country and demolished the borders and unified the land, like Iraq did in Kuwait, or as the Syrian army will hopefully do to Lebanon, we should act to preserve the unity and continue our efforts to overthrow the unbelieving regimes and rid the muslim lands of unbeliever colonialism
what lovely ideas! let's tolerate them!
posted by badzen at 12:02 PM on December 5, 2002
Conformity to what? To what YOU believe is right? That's why my ancestors got on a boat and got the hell out of the whole Eastern Hemisphere, so that they wouldn't have to conform to what others wanted them to. In America there is no definition of "American" Every damn one of us has a different religion, skin color, level of tolerance for the next guy, place of origin, political persuasion, style of dress, etc... Sure that causes all sorts of problems, I mean despite all our money and power we can't work quite as cohesively as more homogenous populations like say Japan or Sweden, but hell, that's why we all came here in the first place (I'd bet that even holds for the original Indians who left Siberia because "the Man" was cramping their style). We don't like to fall into lock step with all our like bodied, like minded neighbors, that's why we get on MeFi and yell at each other over BS, but conformity to ONE standard is NOT a good thing to us (well most of us anyway, there are some that won't conform to that belief, damn them). Maybe that's different in the UK or South Africa, but I sure as hell don't want anyone telling me I MUST celebrate a Secular/Protestant holiday like Thanksgiving if I don't believe in it!
posted by Pollomacho at 12:02 PM on December 5, 2002
posted by Pollomacho at 12:02 PM on December 5, 2002
As far as I'm concerned, people can do whatever they want in the privacy of their homes or churches, as long as it's consensual or self-regarding. If you want to practice a conservative religion in a liberal society, I'm willing to tolerate you as long as you're willing to tolerate me. But if you want to change the society -- be it because of religion or philosophy or good ol'fashioned irrational prejudice -- to reflect your conservative beliefs, or in some other way try to prevent people from exercising their freedoms, then don't be surprised if you are subject to criticism. (E.g., if you say I'm evil, I'm going to observe that you're a fool.)
As luck would have it, though, I used to live an area with an extremely high immigrant Muslim population . . . and I felt like I was more threatened by conservative Republicans.
So go figure.
posted by subgenius at 12:04 PM on December 5, 2002
As luck would have it, though, I used to live an area with an extremely high immigrant Muslim population . . . and I felt like I was more threatened by conservative Republicans.
So go figure.
posted by subgenius at 12:04 PM on December 5, 2002
In one area, that of homophobia, some facets of Islam seem to be quite anti-liberal. I've consciously avoided venturing into these debates centred around criticisms of cultures (lately Islam and the US), mostly because I've had little exposure to Middle-East Islamic culture. However, recently I read a newspaper article [from a left-wing australian paper, via andrewsullivan (!)] on a university conference last week in the University of Western Sydney Australia, as a 'highlight' of which
"[...] an Islamic cleric, called for an Islamic court to be set up in Australia, which would give Muslims the power to stone gay men and lesbians to death."
I've always regarded gay rights as a sort of litmus test for the liberality of a nation, and I find the notion that some fundamentalist idiot wants to set up a court in my home country to kill ordinary men and women, abhorrent, ridiculous and grotesque. This article sends a clear message that the intention of at least some Muslim individuals is very far from integration. It's difficult to accept that such an intolerant culture is compatible with the West's tradition of liberalism and broad tolerance. As well as this outrage, the killing of Pim Fortuyn and the stabbing of [the Mayor of Paris] Delanoe have both been linked to homophobic Muslim individuals.
Certainly, a number of groups and activists feel horrified by the intolerance of traditionalist Islam towards gays and lesbians. The basis of this intolerance is the Koran's provision against sodomy; many Muslims I know have told me that (unlike many Christians) they take such commandments seriously. Indeed, sodomy is a serious crime in most Islamic nations, which has seriously impeded the acceptance of gay rights in these nations. However, I still haven't seen very many column inches from major newspapers regarding Islamic homophobia.
posted by Bletch at 12:11 PM on December 5, 2002
"[...] an Islamic cleric, called for an Islamic court to be set up in Australia, which would give Muslims the power to stone gay men and lesbians to death."
I've always regarded gay rights as a sort of litmus test for the liberality of a nation, and I find the notion that some fundamentalist idiot wants to set up a court in my home country to kill ordinary men and women, abhorrent, ridiculous and grotesque. This article sends a clear message that the intention of at least some Muslim individuals is very far from integration. It's difficult to accept that such an intolerant culture is compatible with the West's tradition of liberalism and broad tolerance. As well as this outrage, the killing of Pim Fortuyn and the stabbing of [the Mayor of Paris] Delanoe have both been linked to homophobic Muslim individuals.
Certainly, a number of groups and activists feel horrified by the intolerance of traditionalist Islam towards gays and lesbians. The basis of this intolerance is the Koran's provision against sodomy; many Muslims I know have told me that (unlike many Christians) they take such commandments seriously. Indeed, sodomy is a serious crime in most Islamic nations, which has seriously impeded the acceptance of gay rights in these nations. However, I still haven't seen very many column inches from major newspapers regarding Islamic homophobia.
posted by Bletch at 12:11 PM on December 5, 2002
Yo Pollomacho chill out. You're the one who brought 'conformity' into this.
Maybe that's different in the UK or South Africa, but I sure as hell don't want anyone telling me I MUST celebrate a Secular/Protestant holiday like Thanksgiving if I don't believe in it!
Please point out where I said anything to support this (which I don't).
posted by PenDevil at 12:15 PM on December 5, 2002
Maybe that's different in the UK or South Africa, but I sure as hell don't want anyone telling me I MUST celebrate a Secular/Protestant holiday like Thanksgiving if I don't believe in it!
Please point out where I said anything to support this (which I don't).
posted by PenDevil at 12:15 PM on December 5, 2002
My boss told me to celebrate Christmas, but I believe in Sinterklaas. I am not complaining for the two days off.
(Dutch readers will get the stupid reference)
posted by sebas at 12:22 PM on December 5, 2002
(Dutch readers will get the stupid reference)
posted by sebas at 12:22 PM on December 5, 2002
Oh, I'm chilled out, I'm just a loud mouthed American! I only brought conformity in through sarcasm!
I think I was mostly reacting to comments like this: Why live here if you will not honor our secular days that we believe in, honor, support? but that wasn't you that said it!
Sebas, I'm looking for the David Sedaris story in Esquire about his talks with a Dutch guy about his Sinterklaas vs. our Santa! Very funny!
posted by Pollomacho at 12:29 PM on December 5, 2002
I think I was mostly reacting to comments like this: Why live here if you will not honor our secular days that we believe in, honor, support? but that wasn't you that said it!
Sebas, I'm looking for the David Sedaris story in Esquire about his talks with a Dutch guy about his Sinterklaas vs. our Santa! Very funny!
posted by Pollomacho at 12:29 PM on December 5, 2002
Here's the bottom line:
There is some happy medium where people from another culture that come here, or that were raised here and have adopted another culture can peacefully and freely follow their beliefs.
The problem seems to be one end, when their beliefs begin to infringe on others around them (like calling for the stoning of homosexuals, or taking upon themselves to convert everyone), and on the other end, when people in the mainstream culture disrespect them for being different, or try to get them to forceably conform. A rational society exists when some compromise is found between those two extremes, and I don't think anyone here is presenting either extreme, except for the linked article in the original post, which is why I wondered if there were more moderate voices out there that would be worth discussing.
posted by mathowie at 12:32 PM on December 5, 2002
There is some happy medium where people from another culture that come here, or that were raised here and have adopted another culture can peacefully and freely follow their beliefs.
The problem seems to be one end, when their beliefs begin to infringe on others around them (like calling for the stoning of homosexuals, or taking upon themselves to convert everyone), and on the other end, when people in the mainstream culture disrespect them for being different, or try to get them to forceably conform. A rational society exists when some compromise is found between those two extremes, and I don't think anyone here is presenting either extreme, except for the linked article in the original post, which is why I wondered if there were more moderate voices out there that would be worth discussing.
posted by mathowie at 12:32 PM on December 5, 2002
PenDevil: You didn't say it, Postroad did:
Had a Pakistan Muslem doctor, a woman. When I wished her a happy Thanksgiving, she said: we don't celebrate Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving, like 4h July etc are not religious holidays but days celebrated in America. How would celbrating or honoring such days be incosistent with one's religion? Why live here if you will not honor our secular days that we believe in, honor, support?
Which is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Yeah, if we're gonna let you stay here, you'd better celebrate all our holidays, however little they may mean to you!
posted by languagehat at 12:35 PM on December 5, 2002
Had a Pakistan Muslem doctor, a woman. When I wished her a happy Thanksgiving, she said: we don't celebrate Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving, like 4h July etc are not religious holidays but days celebrated in America. How would celbrating or honoring such days be incosistent with one's religion? Why live here if you will not honor our secular days that we believe in, honor, support?
Which is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Yeah, if we're gonna let you stay here, you'd better celebrate all our holidays, however little they may mean to you!
posted by languagehat at 12:35 PM on December 5, 2002
Found It! Sorry for the side track...
So you think that telling people that they should celebrate Thanksgiving or the Fourth of July or go back where they came from is tolerance? We have all sorts of beleifs in America that are racist, homophobic, intolerant, war mongering and sexist, but that is all part of it too and we are free to feel those ways here, just as we are free to work against those forces. We have laws and legislative representatives to ensure domestic tranquility and promote the common good, but not to tell people that they can't hate jews or raise money for the IRA (which used to be a common practice around the East Coast in many Irish Pubs, although now, I suppose that would be rather frowned upon) Sure, you can't act out violently against another, but you are perfectly welcome to be a bigot, so long as you don't violate anyone else's right to be what they are.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:41 PM on December 5, 2002
So you think that telling people that they should celebrate Thanksgiving or the Fourth of July or go back where they came from is tolerance? We have all sorts of beleifs in America that are racist, homophobic, intolerant, war mongering and sexist, but that is all part of it too and we are free to feel those ways here, just as we are free to work against those forces. We have laws and legislative representatives to ensure domestic tranquility and promote the common good, but not to tell people that they can't hate jews or raise money for the IRA (which used to be a common practice around the East Coast in many Irish Pubs, although now, I suppose that would be rather frowned upon) Sure, you can't act out violently against another, but you are perfectly welcome to be a bigot, so long as you don't violate anyone else's right to be what they are.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:41 PM on December 5, 2002
Isn't it interesting that historically, Islam has been one of the the most tolerant religions around. Christians and Jews could live safely in Islamic countries historically, while in predominantly Christian and/or Other countries minority muslims were persecuted. It seems that only in the last hundred or so years have things flip-flopped. Perhaps the lack of toleration is a result of the cultural imperialism of the west? Shifting dogma in religious circles (Islam, Christian, etc)? I dunno, but I'd sure like to see where it's going.
posted by blue_beetle at 12:41 PM on December 5, 2002
posted by blue_beetle at 12:41 PM on December 5, 2002
or raise money for the IRA (which used to be a common practice around the East Coast in many Irish Pubs, although now, I suppose that would be rather frowned upon
- I should bloody hope so.
posted by johnnyboy at 12:47 PM on December 5, 2002
- I should bloody hope so.
posted by johnnyboy at 12:47 PM on December 5, 2002
the killing of Pim Fortuyn and the stabbing of [the Mayor of Paris] Delanoe have both been linked to homophobic Muslim individuals.
actually, pim fortuyn was murdered by a white animal-rights activist/enivornmentalist. try doing your homework and not making stuff up.
posted by donkeyschlong at 12:51 PM on December 5, 2002
actually, pim fortuyn was murdered by a white animal-rights activist/enivornmentalist. try doing your homework and not making stuff up.
posted by donkeyschlong at 12:51 PM on December 5, 2002
You think they got the money for the car bombs from selling mutton chops and woolens? Its only been a recent occurrence, sad to say, that the "donation" cans came off the end of the bars in some places!
Oh, thanks donkey, I thought that was correct but I couldn't find an article to back me up!
posted by Pollomacho at 12:53 PM on December 5, 2002
Oh, thanks donkey, I thought that was correct but I couldn't find an article to back me up!
posted by Pollomacho at 12:53 PM on December 5, 2002
While the religious aspects are important, this isn’t really a debate about religious tolerance. It’s about political tolerance. Can a secular, pluralistic, democratic society include members who want that society’s end, who want it to be replaced with a uniform, religious society? It’s a heck of a dilemma: how can pro-tolerance pluralists both defend pluralism and avoid the hypocrisy of refusing to tolerate fundamentalism? Is there any way to make the two visions compatible? No wonder we retreat to the unworkable idea that everything would be so much easier if fundamentalists would set up their own countries somewhere else and succeed or fail as they will. (Yeah, it is interesting, blue-beetle; and interesting that the flowering of both medieval Islamic and modern Western society generally matches up with their tolerance.)
posted by win_k at 12:55 PM on December 5, 2002
posted by win_k at 12:55 PM on December 5, 2002
Perhaps the lack of toleration is a result of the cultural imperialism of the west?
I'm not sure that reflexive self-flagellation is in order. Western cultures (now, blue_beetle is dead on right here re: the historical record) are flexible in that they are able to inculcate the parts of other cultures that they like, they are assimilative, whereas the cultures of many Islamic countries seem to be very conservative (in the traditional, rather than political, sense of the word), and resistant to change. That is a flip-flop.
I wonder if perhaps the Islamic culture, rooted so deeply in religion, is suffering from the loss of prevalence that monotheism in general is: that religion as an organizing principle for a culture is being marginalized. The US is the best example of a successful secular state (yes, secular, despite the various In God We Trust's and the mad pr0pz to Jeebus that issue in a seeming unending stream from our government officials). Success in the free marketplace of ideas is the only real content, and America has been a highly succesful exporter of ideas. Say what you will about cultural imperialism, there is no overt group that says "we have to export our culture to those crazy A-rabs!" Elements of our culture just sort of migrate around, to be picked up or discarded as other culture's see fit. Suer, we some pretty good marketing for our stuff (movies, music, etc) but the real strength of the West (as was the real strength of Islamic culture during it's heyday) was a willingness to assimilate elements of other cultures and a secularization (sheikh v. mullah) of government.
posted by UncleFes at 1:05 PM on December 5, 2002
I'm not sure that reflexive self-flagellation is in order. Western cultures (now, blue_beetle is dead on right here re: the historical record) are flexible in that they are able to inculcate the parts of other cultures that they like, they are assimilative, whereas the cultures of many Islamic countries seem to be very conservative (in the traditional, rather than political, sense of the word), and resistant to change. That is a flip-flop.
I wonder if perhaps the Islamic culture, rooted so deeply in religion, is suffering from the loss of prevalence that monotheism in general is: that religion as an organizing principle for a culture is being marginalized. The US is the best example of a successful secular state (yes, secular, despite the various In God We Trust's and the mad pr0pz to Jeebus that issue in a seeming unending stream from our government officials). Success in the free marketplace of ideas is the only real content, and America has been a highly succesful exporter of ideas. Say what you will about cultural imperialism, there is no overt group that says "we have to export our culture to those crazy A-rabs!" Elements of our culture just sort of migrate around, to be picked up or discarded as other culture's see fit. Suer, we some pretty good marketing for our stuff (movies, music, etc) but the real strength of the West (as was the real strength of Islamic culture during it's heyday) was a willingness to assimilate elements of other cultures and a secularization (sheikh v. mullah) of government.
posted by UncleFes at 1:05 PM on December 5, 2002
Which is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Yeah, if we're gonna let you stay here, you'd better celebrate all our holidays, however little they may mean to you!
I think the point is that she made a deliberate effort to say that she didn't celebrate Thanksgiving. She was intentionally making the point that she wasn't part of her adopted culture. As this whole argument seems to have concluded, Americans have the freedom to act how they want to and can't/shouldn't be forced to conform to all of American culture, however defined. However, conspiculously rejecting the dominant culture (which celebrating Thanksgiving falls into I believe) is pretty anti-social and a long way from integrating. Again, she has every right to her view, but she shouldn't be surprised when it turns people off.
posted by nave at 1:05 PM on December 5, 2002
I think the point is that she made a deliberate effort to say that she didn't celebrate Thanksgiving. She was intentionally making the point that she wasn't part of her adopted culture. As this whole argument seems to have concluded, Americans have the freedom to act how they want to and can't/shouldn't be forced to conform to all of American culture, however defined. However, conspiculously rejecting the dominant culture (which celebrating Thanksgiving falls into I believe) is pretty anti-social and a long way from integrating. Again, she has every right to her view, but she shouldn't be surprised when it turns people off.
posted by nave at 1:05 PM on December 5, 2002
Yeah, it is interesting, blue-beetle; and interesting that the flowering of both medieval Islamic and modern Western society generally matches up with their tolerance.
I'm a little confused by this statement. The flowering of the West has coincided with some of the most horrific acts of intolerance known to humanity! The Inquisitions, the Conquest, Imperialism, Slavery, Jim Crow Laws, the Holocaust, so when have we Westerners really shown beautiful, peaceful tolerance since the Renaissance? I'd say there are just as many Fundamentalist Christians calling for damnation of homosexuals as there are fundy Muslims, its just they haven't quite taken the reigns of government in the West. I think UncleFes hit the nail with the secular movements leading to the flowering of the West.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:22 PM on December 5, 2002
I'm a little confused by this statement. The flowering of the West has coincided with some of the most horrific acts of intolerance known to humanity! The Inquisitions, the Conquest, Imperialism, Slavery, Jim Crow Laws, the Holocaust, so when have we Westerners really shown beautiful, peaceful tolerance since the Renaissance? I'd say there are just as many Fundamentalist Christians calling for damnation of homosexuals as there are fundy Muslims, its just they haven't quite taken the reigns of government in the West. I think UncleFes hit the nail with the secular movements leading to the flowering of the West.
posted by Pollomacho at 1:22 PM on December 5, 2002
try doing your homework and not making stuff up.
You're completely right. I'm sorry about that; Fortuyn's killing was linked to his anti-immigration stance.
posted by Bletch at 1:45 PM on December 5, 2002
You're completely right. I'm sorry about that; Fortuyn's killing was linked to his anti-immigration stance.
posted by Bletch at 1:45 PM on December 5, 2002
And, I should add, not to any Muslim people in any way whatsoever.
posted by Bletch at 1:54 PM on December 5, 2002
posted by Bletch at 1:54 PM on December 5, 2002
A rational society exists when some compromise is found between those two extremes, and I don't think anyone here is presenting either extreme, except for the linked article in the original post, which is why I wondered if there were more moderate voices out there that would be worth discussing.
There's been a lot of thinking around this - for years. One of the most interesting, useful constructs (IMO) is the notion of "public space" and "private space" as talked about by folks like Habermas and Hannah Arendt. More recently a lot of thinking about integration has (naturally) occred in the EU. This article (pdf), for instance, is fairly interesting.
posted by MidasMulligan at 1:56 PM on December 5, 2002
There's been a lot of thinking around this - for years. One of the most interesting, useful constructs (IMO) is the notion of "public space" and "private space" as talked about by folks like Habermas and Hannah Arendt. More recently a lot of thinking about integration has (naturally) occred in the EU. This article (pdf), for instance, is fairly interesting.
posted by MidasMulligan at 1:56 PM on December 5, 2002
You think they got the money for the car bombs from selling mutton chops and woolens
- not to derail but er, no.
posted by johnnyboy at 1:59 PM on December 5, 2002
- not to derail but er, no.
posted by johnnyboy at 1:59 PM on December 5, 2002
Here's an interesting site for a Muslim Homosexual Rights Association
posted by cell divide at 2:42 PM on December 5, 2002
posted by cell divide at 2:42 PM on December 5, 2002
Christians and Jews could live safely in Islamic countries historically, while in predominantly Christian and/or Other countries minority muslims were persecuted.
This is not technically accurate, or at least, the first half is not. Islam historically has been as violent and intolerant as Christianity towards non-believers. While there were periods of tolerance throughout the history of the Muslim world in specific areas, the same can be said of Europeans, which is less a statement about how tolerant the Europeans were than how intolerant the Muslims were. In neither case do these specific examples of tolerance justify the massacres, wars of conquest, enslavement, oppression, and other woes that both sides have visited upon the other for the past fourteen hundred years.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 3:12 PM on December 5, 2002
This is not technically accurate, or at least, the first half is not. Islam historically has been as violent and intolerant as Christianity towards non-believers. While there were periods of tolerance throughout the history of the Muslim world in specific areas, the same can be said of Europeans, which is less a statement about how tolerant the Europeans were than how intolerant the Muslims were. In neither case do these specific examples of tolerance justify the massacres, wars of conquest, enslavement, oppression, and other woes that both sides have visited upon the other for the past fourteen hundred years.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 3:12 PM on December 5, 2002
this reminds me of this article i read in jewsweek a while back...
Not sure if that was a typo, since the j is near the n, but if not: what a way to shoot your credibility in the foot. It's like people who actually say "Microshaft" in everyday conversation. Or "Netscrape".
posted by jragon at 3:24 PM on December 5, 2002
Not sure if that was a typo, since the j is near the n, but if not: what a way to shoot your credibility in the foot. It's like people who actually say "Microshaft" in everyday conversation. Or "Netscrape".
posted by jragon at 3:24 PM on December 5, 2002
to clarify things: I nevere told that woman that she ought to celebrate holidays or go to some other country. I merely found it a bit odd that she noted that we (here family?) did not celebrate Thanksgiving. In fact, she is the best student in the class. Another anecdote: I had brought Elie Wiesel, nobel prize winner of peace prize to a program I was running. When I introduced him top the university president, the president (it was close to the holiday) asked if Jews celebrated Thanksgiving.
We should honor Vet's Day, 4th of Jule and a few others buy going to the Mall and spending like hell; then drinking 6 packs and eating hotdogs--othrwise leave the country!
Lighten up, folks. all will be well.
posted by Postroad at 3:32 PM on December 5, 2002
We should honor Vet's Day, 4th of Jule and a few others buy going to the Mall and spending like hell; then drinking 6 packs and eating hotdogs--othrwise leave the country!
Lighten up, folks. all will be well.
posted by Postroad at 3:32 PM on December 5, 2002
In fact, she is the best student in the class.
What does that have to do with anything?
posted by hippugeek at 3:50 PM on December 5, 2002
What does that have to do with anything?
posted by hippugeek at 3:50 PM on December 5, 2002
postroad - i got the same response from a jew when i wished him a happy xmas. maybe it was a cultural thing - he was american, but in the uk we don't use "holidays" as a neutral term. it struck me as odd because i'm not christian, and i don't get offended by it...
posted by andrew cooke at 4:08 PM on December 5, 2002
posted by andrew cooke at 4:08 PM on December 5, 2002
jragon: For your edification, Jewsweek Magazine. Yes, it's a dumb name, but it's a real publication with a reasonable reputation.
posted by dhartung at 4:11 PM on December 5, 2002
posted by dhartung at 4:11 PM on December 5, 2002
During the terrible reign of the Evil Empress Margaret, one of her vile henchmen, Norman Tebbit, suggested that people who lived in the United Kingdom but who supported the sporting teams of their cultural heritage (in particular Pakistan or the West Indies at cricket) were somehow not properly "British". He called this The Cricket Test.
I have made it a point not to show support for any English team since (not difficult since I really don't care for sport. It also means that I'm generally rooting for the winning team).
posted by Grangousier at 4:11 PM on December 5, 2002
I have made it a point not to show support for any English team since (not difficult since I really don't care for sport. It also means that I'm generally rooting for the winning team).
posted by Grangousier at 4:11 PM on December 5, 2002
Well, Christmas is an overtly religious holiday, Thanksgiving has been stripped of pretty much all religious aspects outside of the church. Although Thanksgiving psalms were a large part of the holiday not all that long ago, and there was of course the original Thanksgiving was quite religious-- but then again, so was everything else at that time.
One thing I have noticed in my travels in the Middle East is that Thanksgiving is a very well-known and respected holiday there-- perhaps because feasts are major parts of middle eastern holidays, and Thanksgiving is America's feast holiday. Of course when I say "there" I mean among the educated people who know a bit about American culture through visits, education, or film and television.
posted by cell divide at 4:14 PM on December 5, 2002
One thing I have noticed in my travels in the Middle East is that Thanksgiving is a very well-known and respected holiday there-- perhaps because feasts are major parts of middle eastern holidays, and Thanksgiving is America's feast holiday. Of course when I say "there" I mean among the educated people who know a bit about American culture through visits, education, or film and television.
posted by cell divide at 4:14 PM on December 5, 2002
Pseudoephedrine -
I'm not sure where you're getting your information about Islam from. In the medival era, jews and christians were allowed certain rights while living under the islamic rulers. they were required to sign a deal. They couldn't preach in public, couldn't build new churches, seek conversions, etc. In modern times, that would seem very intolerant. However, at the time, it was much more tolerant than had every occured before. When Islam took over Spain, they didn't have enough soliders to garison every village. The perious rulers of Spain (Visogoths I think) had been persecuting jews. The Islamic army would capture and town and put it under Jewish leaders and the army would move on. The jewish community was happy with their Islamic overlords compared to what they had suffered under their christain rulers. That's just one example. But, there are many examples where christian or jewish communities were displaced by Islamic rulers based on the belief that the christians or jews violated the deal. Whether those terms were violated, I'm not sure.
Both Islamic and Europeans powers have caused war, oppression, etc. but neither side has caused an unequal amount of the suffering. Maybe the suffering is a result of people being in power rather than due to a specific religion.
posted by Stynxno at 4:18 PM on December 5, 2002
I'm not sure where you're getting your information about Islam from. In the medival era, jews and christians were allowed certain rights while living under the islamic rulers. they were required to sign a deal. They couldn't preach in public, couldn't build new churches, seek conversions, etc. In modern times, that would seem very intolerant. However, at the time, it was much more tolerant than had every occured before. When Islam took over Spain, they didn't have enough soliders to garison every village. The perious rulers of Spain (Visogoths I think) had been persecuting jews. The Islamic army would capture and town and put it under Jewish leaders and the army would move on. The jewish community was happy with their Islamic overlords compared to what they had suffered under their christain rulers. That's just one example. But, there are many examples where christian or jewish communities were displaced by Islamic rulers based on the belief that the christians or jews violated the deal. Whether those terms were violated, I'm not sure.
Both Islamic and Europeans powers have caused war, oppression, etc. but neither side has caused an unequal amount of the suffering. Maybe the suffering is a result of people being in power rather than due to a specific religion.
posted by Stynxno at 4:18 PM on December 5, 2002
I think it's not quite right for someone to say that they want the material benefits that come from living in a different culture, but they despise the culture that these benefits come from. By partaking in the benefits, one is aiding and abetting in the things one sees as destructive - a moral dilemma that many, not just Muslims in the West, face in their lives. By choosing to come to the West, they've chosen to deal with this dilemma first hand, instead of remaining untouched by it. A certain amount of respect and tolerance is required by the majority to deal justly with minorities who see this as a problem - but those who have chosen not to fully cast their lot with a culture they disagree with shouldn't expect that culture to change for them or to accept their beliefs as things that cannot be argued against. Faith often requires sacrifice, and such sacrifices must be made willingly, not with the idea that the world at large is robbing you of an opportunity to do otherwise and still keep your faith. That way leads to bitterness and strife. God will find a way to justify your path to him; it's not your job to justify it or to force the world to recognize it as just. That's what real faith means - to accept that the world doesn't understand your beliefs and to live with it willingly, not stridently, or silently either.
posted by pyramid termite at 4:22 PM on December 5, 2002
posted by pyramid termite at 4:22 PM on December 5, 2002
I don't know a single Muslim - and I know a LOT of Muslims - who thinks there's anything wrong with celebrating Thanksgiving. Try visiting your local Islamic K-6 school next Thanksgiving - you'll see hand-drawn turkeys and the like everywhere. Because it is areligious (apart from thanking God, etc.), it blends in very well with Islam. Postroad, sorry you met the exception to the rule.
posted by laz-e-boy at 5:56 PM on December 5, 2002
posted by laz-e-boy at 5:56 PM on December 5, 2002
http://showandtellmusic.com/images/galleries/gallery%20d/theimmigrants.jpg
posted by Postroad at 6:00 PM on December 5, 2002
posted by Postroad at 6:00 PM on December 5, 2002
If you'd rather not integrate, then by all means, don't.
Another rather obvious alternative seems to present itself.
posted by hama7 at 7:23 PM on December 5, 2002
Another rather obvious alternative seems to present itself.
posted by hama7 at 7:23 PM on December 5, 2002
It seems to me that the Muslims emigrating en mass to Europe aren't so much interested in integrating into the society around them as assimilating Europe into the Islamic world (much like the Borg of Star Trek fame). Of course the Europeans are begging to become minorities in their native lands due to their declining birth rates and wide open immigration policies. The Europeans obviously realize that resistance ifs futile.
America on the other hand seems to be able to corrupt most anyone. How were the 9/11 hijackers prepping for their mission? Well, in part they were hanging out in strip clubs sucking down booze and salivating over the nekkid women (some soldiers of Allah). You can't get much more American than that.
Pyramid Termite seems to have hit the nail right on the head - great post!
posted by MikeMc at 10:44 PM on December 5, 2002
America on the other hand seems to be able to corrupt most anyone. How were the 9/11 hijackers prepping for their mission? Well, in part they were hanging out in strip clubs sucking down booze and salivating over the nekkid women (some soldiers of Allah). You can't get much more American than that.
Pyramid Termite seems to have hit the nail right on the head - great post!
posted by MikeMc at 10:44 PM on December 5, 2002
Another rather obvious alternative seems to present itself.
Not integrating?
posted by inpHilltr8r at 11:12 PM on December 5, 2002
Not integrating?
posted by inpHilltr8r at 11:12 PM on December 5, 2002
Stynxno>
To some extent, yes, but you're overplaying certain incidents and downplaying others.
For example, immediately prior to the jihad which resulted in the conquering of a great deal of Spain, the Muslims had several bloody wars with local Jewish tribes. Nor was the Spanish conflict itself quite so bloodless. Nor are we counting the near-genocide of the Copts in Egypt. Or the enslavement of Christians for mamluk soldiers by the Ottomans. As well, we're ignoring examples of historical European tolerance, such as Prague, and to a lesser extent, Byzantium (and then, later, modern European civilisation). My point here is not that Europe was a bastion of tolerance and Islam not, but that neither one was any more tolerant than the other in practice - only by cherrypicking the historical record one way or the other can we construe one to be the more tolerant religion.
Both Islamic and Europeans powers have caused war, oppression, etc. but neither side has caused an unequal amount of the suffering. Maybe the suffering is a result of people being in power rather than due to a specific religion.
I agree whole-heartedly. This is in fact the point I am trying to make, by demonstrating that _neither_ was really that much better than the other in terms of tolerance. The "Enlightened Mediaeval Islam" meme is as much a sham as "Enlightened Modern Europeans". Not that I'm arguing for moral relativism - merely that the historical record vindicates no one at all.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 11:46 PM on December 5, 2002
To some extent, yes, but you're overplaying certain incidents and downplaying others.
For example, immediately prior to the jihad which resulted in the conquering of a great deal of Spain, the Muslims had several bloody wars with local Jewish tribes. Nor was the Spanish conflict itself quite so bloodless. Nor are we counting the near-genocide of the Copts in Egypt. Or the enslavement of Christians for mamluk soldiers by the Ottomans. As well, we're ignoring examples of historical European tolerance, such as Prague, and to a lesser extent, Byzantium (and then, later, modern European civilisation). My point here is not that Europe was a bastion of tolerance and Islam not, but that neither one was any more tolerant than the other in practice - only by cherrypicking the historical record one way or the other can we construe one to be the more tolerant religion.
Both Islamic and Europeans powers have caused war, oppression, etc. but neither side has caused an unequal amount of the suffering. Maybe the suffering is a result of people being in power rather than due to a specific religion.
I agree whole-heartedly. This is in fact the point I am trying to make, by demonstrating that _neither_ was really that much better than the other in terms of tolerance. The "Enlightened Mediaeval Islam" meme is as much a sham as "Enlightened Modern Europeans". Not that I'm arguing for moral relativism - merely that the historical record vindicates no one at all.
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 11:46 PM on December 5, 2002
hey, who needs to integrate when we can disintegrate?
posted by muppetboy at 12:23 AM on December 6, 2002
posted by muppetboy at 12:23 AM on December 6, 2002
Not immigrating
Yeah, let's see I can go to America or the UK and be the top in my class and have a career etc. or I can have my vagina mutilated and live in a sack, hmm, tough choice there...
I don't know a single Muslim - and I know a LOT of Muslims - who thinks there's anything wrong with celebrating Thanksgiving.
Well, that's great for them. I like thanksgiving too, especially the cranberry sauce, but if someone finds objection to the holiday like Postroad's student, well, then back the hell off them, that is their right. And, despite its status as a "secular" national holiday, Thanksgiving is a religious holiday, what, you thought the pilgrims were secular humanists? If you don't have some sort of being/entity/creator myth then who the heck are you thanking, the President, maybe the turkey for giving its life, but that's a whole religious thing unto itself!
posted by Pollomacho at 7:50 AM on December 6, 2002
Yeah, let's see I can go to America or the UK and be the top in my class and have a career etc. or I can have my vagina mutilated and live in a sack, hmm, tough choice there...
I don't know a single Muslim - and I know a LOT of Muslims - who thinks there's anything wrong with celebrating Thanksgiving.
Well, that's great for them. I like thanksgiving too, especially the cranberry sauce, but if someone finds objection to the holiday like Postroad's student, well, then back the hell off them, that is their right. And, despite its status as a "secular" national holiday, Thanksgiving is a religious holiday, what, you thought the pilgrims were secular humanists? If you don't have some sort of being/entity/creator myth then who the heck are you thanking, the President, maybe the turkey for giving its life, but that's a whole religious thing unto itself!
posted by Pollomacho at 7:50 AM on December 6, 2002
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posted by gwint at 11:08 AM on December 5, 2002