Comments on: 100 poets can't be wrong

100 poets can't be wrong

jokeefe — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:06:10 -0800

Poets Against the War At Sam Hamill's Poets Against the War, the story of the recent cancellation (link to Canada's Globe and Mail), by Laura Bush, of a Feb. 12 poetry symposium at the White House. From the G and M article: Stanley Kunitz, poet laureate 2000-01, told reporters, "I think there was a general feeling that the current administration is not really a friend of the poetic community and that its program of attacking Iraq is contrary to the humanitarian position that is at the centre of the poetic impulse."
Hamill is gathering contributions from poets around the world, including Pulitzer Prize-winners Yusef Komunyakaa and W.S. Merwin, National Book Award winner Marilyn Hacker, novelist Ursula K. Le Guin, and Adrienne Rich.
This post is not intended the fan the flames of 'War on Iraq: Yes or No', but to explore Kunitz's contention: Is there at the centre of the poetic impulse a particular type of humanitarianism? Is there a space for poets and poetry in political debate? Are poets the "unacknowledged legislators of the world"? [more inside]

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:06:38 -0800

Relatedly, from nthposition.com, a collection of "over 100 of the world's leading, mid-career and emerging poets who work in the English language, [who] have gathered their work together in a book of new peace poems" (downloads here in pdf). The booklet is entitled '100 Poets Against The War'.

By: jonson

jonson — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:20:16 -0800

I'm not sure which is more shocking, the fact that the poet community is in general, anti-war, or that the current administration is not poet-friendly. This is, one would have to admit, a fairly predictable stance from a gathering of poets. Also: Is there at the centre of the poetic impulse a particular type of humanitarianism? Is there a space for poets and poetry in political debate? Are poets the "unacknowledged legislators of the world"? yes. no. no.

By: damn yankee

damn yankee — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:26:38 -0800

IANAP, just a lowly journalist, but it would seem to me, when it comes to something as bare as war vs peace, there is an inherent humanitarianism to poetry. people who wage war don't think about it in the same light that you have to view the world in order to write poetry. they don't have that light. they live in a world that's missing a dimension, a dimension that actually allows you to contemplate your surroundings. and for those who do wage war and are capable of poetry, that poetry is usually pretty tormented. they're not fight songs. maybe i'm wrong. can anybody think of any genuinely enthusiastic war poetry? propaganda jingles don't count.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:28:30 -0800

"Is there at the centre of the poetic impulse a particular type of humanitarianism?" In the year of our Lord 1314, patriots of Scotland, starving and outnumbered, charged the fields of Bannockburn. They fought like warrior poets. They fought like Scotsmen, and won their freedom.

By: damn yankee

damn yankee — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:29:35 -0800

why is it when i write about poetry that i come out sounding like some breathless hack?

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:38:48 -0800

There's something at the centre of the poetic impulse, all right, but I'm not sure it's humanitarianism. Given the quality of the overwhelming majority of poetry written, I'd suggest it might actually be cruelty.

By: 111

111 — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:50:31 -0800

Nietzsche once said that poets are often nothing more than lackeys of any available moral standards. I won't even get into the question of what do poets know about the reality of policy-making, but I wonder if some of these writers aren't actually using the conflict as an excuse to promote themselves. There's also the fact that, under the Hussein regime, many of them would no doubt be arrested, tortured and killed if they even remotely attempted to to criticize the government. Like teenagers, they seem to antagonize their supporters and idealize their worst enemies.

By: damn yankee

damn yankee — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:55:44 -0800

or, you could look at it that way. and to a certain degree i'm actually inclined to agree. (HAH! i'm a poet and ..... ahhh. time to go to bed.)

By: filchyboy

filchyboy — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:23:13 -0800

One of the many jobs of a poet is to bite the hand that feeds. If some apparat &*^%$ with pretensions of literacy does not understand that then should any of us be surprised? I think not. Not surprising though given the absolute gruel the potus wives give out as moral lit for kiddies. I spit on Cheney's book and draw mustaches on her characters every time I come across her book in the shop. Shame on them! I have to wonder what moron thought it appropriate to invite poets in the first place. What are they gonna do write odes to Bush's gravitas? Any cunt who thought that was in the cards surely can't be considered to be a real librarian. Disgusting!

By: dhartung

dhartung — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:35:57 -0800

Kunitz really should know better -- or perhaps he is engaging in deliberate spin. Rupert Brooke and the war poets of the First World War defined the experience of war for at least a generation -- while participating, many of them capable of avoiding service. Scholarship of the poetry of the American Civil War -- North and South -- is extensive. War poems cover the entire 20th century. Not all of these were wars of men who, damn yankee's cruel musings aside, are "missing a dimension", unless it is the impulse of the Paris example, surrender before tyranny rather than destruction. Many poets clearly chose defense of their country -- or the freedom of other countries -- over 'the humanitarian position'. Nor is war enthusiasm limited to the right; major swathes of liberals in both America and Europe, after all, flocked to the Spanish Civil War to fight the fascists, e.g. Hemingway and Orwell, and wrote about it. More recently, poetry and other artwork have been a well-publicized release for veterans of Vietnam, many of whom were and are conservative. Yes, Kunitz would like to believe that poetry enables, or embodies, a certain political discourse, but the verdict of history shows otherwise. Comforting it may be to characterize poetry as humanitarian, but the language belongs to no one. Soldiers and patriots, too, may be poets, and generally were until modern times.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:41:54 -0800

[see also : Vogon poetry]

By: drezdn

drezdn — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:04:04 -0800

There are poets that have been willing to die for war causes but it seems most served the wounded more than the rifle.Walt Whitman was a battlefield nurse in the Civil War. Hemingway was a medic in WWI. And the best anti-war poem preponderatingly because unless statistics lie he was more brave than me: more blonde than you

By: raysmj

raysmj — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:06:15 -0800

Did Kunitz say that poets were against any war whatsoever? No, gosh no, he said the potential war now being discussed - and the "Shock and Awe" plan, etc. - is contrary to the humanitarian position that is at the centre of the poetic impulse, not war itself. Say what you will about the above opinion, but don't screw his words around. He absolutely did not say that those poets hailing the Union in the Civil War because of their opposition to slavery, say, were lacking some essential poetic impulse.

By: damn yankee

damn yankee — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:07:43 -0800

i'm having an incredibly hard time wrapping my brain around an argument to counter you with, dhartung, and i don't know whether i'm just too tired to formulate what i want to say or if you have a point. i'm inclined to think the latter, but i'm going to go sleep on it. ;)

By: transient

transient — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:18:10 -0800

Here's one for dhartung to suggest that soldiers and patriots, too, may be humanitarian. At any rate, no, there is no space for poets and poetry in "political debate;" in fact, there is no space for most of us.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:42:15 -0800

and for those who do wage war and are capable of poetry, that poetry is usually pretty tormented. they're not fight songs. maybe i'm wrong. can anybody think of any genuinely enthusiastic war poetry? propaganda jingles don't count. The last stanza of "In Flanders Fields" by McRae, for reasons unknowable to me usually thought of as an antiwar poem: Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw The torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields. I think threatening to haunt those who refuse to add more bodies to the pile counts as a certain grim enthusiasm.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:44:06 -0800

see also any number of ancient poems. The Iliad and Odyssey both directly praise martial prowess.

By: hippugeek

hippugeek — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 00:03:54 -0800

threatening to haunt those who refuse to add more bodies to the pile I don't see that at all, ROU_X. The aim isn't actually to kill people for the joy of it, but to make sure that those who have already died did not do so in vain. The Iliad does praise warriors, but it's also full of elaborate and affecting scenes of mourning. It's not a pep piece, and I think the tone is one of obligation to fight, rather than eagerness to do so. I'm not saying there aren't any truly pro-war poems, but I don't think those examples are the best.

By: Sonny Jim

Sonny Jim — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 00:07:18 -0800

dhartung: Sure, Rupert Brooke felt compelled to propagadandize the First World War, but he died before he could even make it to the Dardanelles; those who did make it the front tended to have a slightly different take on the whole thing, as I recall. Somehow, although it's written by a 'soldier' and presumably a 'patriot', I don't think you could describe dulce et decorum est as a chipper endorsement of British military policy c. 1917.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 00:18:43 -0800

I don't see that at all, ROU_X. The aim isn't actually to kill people for the joy of it, but to make sure that those who have already died did not do so in vain Exactly. And "not dying in vain" means VICTORY! Make the Hun pay! It's pro-war in that it condemns those who might end the war as a colossally stupid endeavor if they dare to stop before victory, and it's pro-war in that it says that they were dying by the townful for something worthwhile, instead of being the victims of their governments and countrymen and their own addleheaded notions of King and Country, condemned to a pointless war that nobody could be bothered not to have, callously "expended" with no other goal than to have the other side expend its own young men relatively faster. To be sure, it's not vapid propagandizing. But compared to the reality of World War I, this is a downright romantic picture.

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 00:20:49 -0800

At any rate, no, there is no space for poets and poetry in "political debate;" in fact, there is no space for most of us. Um, isn't that what democracy is supposed to provide?

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 01:00:55 -0800

I think that might be transient's point, jokeefe. Key words being 'supposed to.'

By: kaibutsu

kaibutsu — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 02:17:43 -0800

Poetry is - almost by definition - a more complex mode of expression than political rhetoric. As such, the Illiad cannot be classified as staunchly for or against War. The same holds for Beowulf and Shakespeare, and probably for any poet of great quality you care to think of. Pure Speculation, Generalization, and Probably Bull: Poetry is commentary on the world and life of the poet. Sometimes the commentary focuses on a physical space, such as Harlem, sometimes a mythic place, such as a grove of falling cherry-blossoms, and sometimes a wholly conceptual space. But still it is commentary on particulars, and I don't see how a poet could ever indict War, the non-existant concept, since we have no direct connection to this pure concept on which to comment. Only particulars. Contrast this with the U.S. government's approach to drugs and terrorism.

By: kaibutsu

kaibutsu — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 02:21:29 -0800

thinking a bit more... It occurs to me that what I'm actually talking about here is the feasability of Platonism. The Administration is very much into Platonism, while the rest of the world isn't so big on the thing right now. My Paragraph of Bull amounts to saying that no poets are Platonists, which probably isn't true. Hm. Gives something to think about though: why does political rhetoric tend towards a kind of simplistic Platonism while poetic expression seems completely divorced of this world-view?

By: mediareport

mediareport — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 02:58:51 -0800

What a marvelous episode. Bravo poetry. Like raysmj, I see little in Kunitz' remarks that places poetry always in a strictly pacifist camp. But I agree completely with his spot-on assessment of the incompatibility of lies designed to foster an invasion over money with what we can loosely call "the poetic impulse." I also think the act of making poetry (or any art) is an inherently political move. And then, of course, there's the freaky notion that violence and torture can be sometimes be raised to the level of "art." The lines are complex.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 03:01:27 -0800

can be sometimes be raised Er, that was poetry.

By: anewc2

anewc2 — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 07:14:54 -0800

To Lucasta, on going to the wars Tell me not, Sweet, I am unkind That from the nunnery Of thy chaste breast and quiet mind, To war and arms I fly. True, a new mistress now I chase, The first foe in the field; And with a stronger faith embrace A sword, a horse, a shield. Yet this inconstancy is such As you too shall adore; I couild not love thee, Dear, so much, Loved I not honour more. Richard Lovelace, 1618-1658

By: MattD

MattD — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 07:52:47 -0800

A number of the finest poets of the 20th Century, were, or became, great conservatives -- W.S. Yeats, T.S. Eliot, etc. -- and many great poets, regardless of ideological motivation, were happy to celebrate war and heroism. It is unsurprising that the bulk of today's poets are left, because the bulk of professional artists, of any time or era, are captives of trend and notoriously simple thinkers in terms of the dynamics of power and patriotism.

By: alumshubby

alumshubby — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 09:35:22 -0800

I wish I could find a copy of Greg Kuzma's "Peace, So That" to add to this discussion. Anybody else who has one wanna help me out here?

By: mediareport

mediareport — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 10:17:29 -0800

I could not love thee, Dear, so much, Loved I not honour more. Wow. What a striking thought. the bulk of professional artists, of any time or era, are captives of trend and notoriously simple thinkers in terms of the dynamics of power and patriotism. You could probably say that about the bulk of any profession, MattD. But I say horseshit anyway; every poet I've ever met who I felt was worthy of the word has been far more able to handle the complexities of "the dynamics of power and patriotism" than most other people.

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 11:11:20 -0800

I think that might be transient's point, jokeefe. Key words being 'supposed to.' *smacks forehead* *makes note not to respond to Mefi posts after midnight* Note: re Lovelace, the European ideal of honour in battle, I believe, came to at least a partial end in the trenches. Can't think of any poetry from WWII that addressed a similar idea--point taken about Spain, though I'm thinking here also about Picasso's Guernica. And about the conflicted response of the modernists to fascism.

By: 111

111 — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 12:28:29 -0800

For a well-informed general description of how many poets/writers/intellectuals were overtly pro-war just before WWI, I'd recommend the section "The Great Illusion" on Jacques Barzun's "From Dawn to Decadence". Regarding the current situation, the fact is that these "100 poets" works are irrelevant; it's their stance that reaches the public at large, regardless of one's own views on the conflict.

By: kewms

kewms — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 12:46:46 -0800

Is there at the centre of the poetic impulse a particular type of humanitarianism? There may be a particular way of seeing, for instance a certain attention to detail and connections. but that way of seeing has no inherent political content. For every Whitman, walking through a Civil War hospital and lamenting the terrible waste, you have a Wagner, celebrating heroic sacrifice. The idea that poets (or any other artists) are inherently more moral than the rest of us is a useful conceit for poets, but doesn't have much basis in reality.

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Sat, 01 Feb 2003 19:37:53 -0800

i would be worried if Kunitz was for military action Can't think of any poetry from WWII that addressed a similar idea--point taken about Spain, though I'm thinking here also about Picasso's Guernica Jarrells', 'Death of a Ball turret Gunner'. Similar? more so then dissimilar...confides of war in terms of spatial relations (trench-ball turret) utter horror and a quick death....routinized doom. 'Guernica' always seemed like a advertisement of the Stuka.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Sun, 02 Feb 2003 14:30:56 -0800

Speaking of Guernica, the most recent issue of Garth Ennis' "War Stories" is a beautiful little tale of 4 very different soldiers meeting in a foxhole during the Spanish Civil War. Ennis uses one of them to tell the story of the bombing of Guernica from the viewpoint of someone on the ground. Gripping stuff, with lots of sharp points made against all sides in that conflict. Scroll down here for a review.