Orange you glad I didn't say shamrock?

July 5, 2000 5:35 AM

Orange you glad I didn't say shamrock? Uhm... don't the catholics and protestants worship relatively the same diety? And didn't this diety say something about ..you know, uh, being nice to each other and stuff? Something like that? And by the way, when is the sequel to The Commitments coming out?
posted by ZachsMind (22 comments total)

Oh yeah, a summarization for those who opt not to immediately click on every link (and I'm one of those people sometimes I read the responses before clicking on the link so I'm not knocking that here). For the past day or two riots have broken out in Northern Ireland (nothing new there). There has been this "Orangemen" parade where protestants march through a catholic neighborhood, where historically some pretty bloody stuff went on several generations ago, basically just cuz the protestants like to piss off the catholics.

It's like if some schmuck started dating your ex-girlfriend and then made a point to show up wherever you were with her draped on his arm just cuz he knows it pisses you off. Well, this year the Orange dudes are not being allowed to do the parade. The politicians between the IRA and other interests are trying to be nice to one another. Apparently not all irish want peace. These guys need to just get together and drink some Guiness and quit fighting over whether it's sprinkling or full immersion cuz God don't give a crap.
posted by ZachsMind at 6:13 AM on July 5, 2000

the 'sequels' to the commitments *did* come out, sort of.

did you not read the barrytown trilogy?
posted by maura at 8:05 AM on July 5, 2000

I suppose it goes without saying that Zach's not Irish...
posted by m.polo at 8:39 AM on July 5, 2000

Actually I am Irish. On my Grandma's side. The blood of the Kelley's pumps in my veins, thank you very much. However, I'm not Protestant or Catholic. I'm a backslid Bobbie.

Didn't read Barrytown Trilogy. I suck.

Saw the movie. I already got a long list of offline books I'm supposed to get around to reading. Just finished Kranz's latest work "Failure Is Not An Option." (that book RULES. Better reading than a lot of scifi I've read) and am working on The Uplift Trilogy. A friend of mine wants me to read Ender's Game next. I'm not much into paper books nowadays. I'm usually reading too much online. I usually only read books when a friend or someone I really admire says, "you gotta read this dude! It's so you!"

Those other two movies weren't sequels. Just cuz they were written by the same guy and take place in the same country. That don't count. So when is the real sequel to The Commitments coming out? I want something comparable to Mustang Sally! =)
posted by ZachsMind at 9:05 AM on July 5, 2000

I'm not quite sure who said it originally, but there is a saying out there that goes something along the lines of, "If Jesus were here today and saw what was being done in His name, He'd never stop puking."
posted by elf_baby at 11:07 AM on July 5, 2000

Sorry folks, but the riots, like the Troubles, have little to do with religion, and everything to do with politics. The Orangemen are celebrating their victory at the Battle of the Boigne with the marching season, and their yearly parade through Protestant and Catholic sectors of the city has caused tremendous stress upon the peace process.

This year, it was decided to bar the Orange Order from marching through Catholic neighborhoods, especially Drumcree. This order came down from the new coalition government, the first step towards power-sharing between Catholics and Protestants. That prohibition itself is an affront to what Protestants and Unionists consider their God-given right: to rub the faces of Irish Catholics in the defeat and occupation of Northern Ireland by British forces.

I am second generation Irish Catholic, raised in a household where Rebel songs are still sung after dinner, and stories of family members who ran guns and raised funds for the IRA are shared generously and repeatedly. I was taught that the Republic will, one day, be whole again, rid of those murderous bastards and everything they represent.

I prefer to think Re-unification will occur by the ballot, rather than the bullet, but I still can't help but laugh when I see members of the RUC [Royal Ulster Constabulary, the local paramilitary police force], that has kept Catholics under an iron hand for so many decades, shooting back at Orange loyalists. Here's hoping some of the more violent yobs get what's coming to 'em. Fair turnabout, I say.

God bless the Republic.
posted by gangcandy at 12:12 PM on July 5, 2000

Zachsmind..., the two other movies ARE sequals. All the stories involve the same family, though for legal reasons the name had to be changed in one (or two) of them.
Anyway, both the 'sequels' are better than the funny but rather obnoxious Commitments.
posted by prolific at 3:18 PM on July 5, 2000

Prolific you misunderstand me. If the alleged sequels suck compared to the original, then to me they're not sequels. For example, in my mind, there was no sequel to Highlander. The tv series named Highlander was erroneous. Nothing stood up to the original. The original ends in a way that makes any attempt at a sequel impossible. There can be only one.

The Committments being funny and obnoxious, that's two of the best things about that movie. If the other two don't live up to the first one, they don't deserve to be called sequels.

And I don't care historically or politically about who's rubbing what into whose face. Game over. That was years ago. The Orangemen should just bloody well grow up.
posted by ZachsMind at 3:42 PM on July 5, 2000

Okay people. This will be long.

Unlike those in this thread who might have said they were Irish - they're not. They're descended from the Irish. Unlike them, I am Irish. I was born and raised in Dublin. My mother is from Belfast, and most of my family live there still.

> and stories of family members who ran guns and
> raised funds for the IRA are shared generously and
> repeatedly.

I genuinely hope those members of your family will burn in hell. That money funded bombs and weapons that killed people of both sides, most of them innocent. Ever see the remnants of a bomb attack? It's a horror I hope I will never see again. How about weeping families who (for example) had their son shot in front of them by a terrorist death squad who followed him home from the pub after he'd made a few drunken remarks?

> I was taught that the Republic will, one day, be whole > again, rid of those murderous bastards and
> everything they represent.

That will include the terrorists on the Republican side, yes? Do you remember Omagh in 1998? Enniskillen in the 80's? As a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, I don't want that part of the country to become part of the Republic unless these people are either locked up, or legislation is passed to impose the death penalty for acts of terrorism.

> but I still can't help but laugh when I see members of
> the RUC [Royal Ulster Constabulary, the local
> paramilitary police force], that has kept Catholics
> under an iron hand for so many decades,

Don't forget the the local paramilitary police force for the pro Irish community, as organised by Sinn Fein. If you go to the official police force (RUC) to report a crime like a burglary or a car theft, they'll beat the hell out of you, or shoot your kneecaps out. At the least they will verbally abuse and threaten you. It works both ways up there, all the time. These thugs by the way are IRA members who are "on ceasefire" apparently. So don't let "gangcandy" and others of his ilk tell you otherwise.

My family, as I've said, come from Belfast, and they know lots of people there. That is what it's like down at the grassroots.

I'm not denying that the RUC and the British Army have committed atrocities - of course they have. But it does work both ways.

That's my lot (for now).

For the record let it be said for the sake of political angles that will occur. I was raised a Catholic (but I do not practise). My Northern families politics is mostly SDLP (nationalist political party) and the odd Sinn Fein (Republican, political wing of the IRA) member.

NB - Republican in Ireland means something totally different to the word in the US!
posted by tomcosgrave at 5:36 PM on July 5, 2000

PS - Elfbaby. Right on.
posted by tomcosgrave at 5:38 PM on July 5, 2000

If the last few years have taught us anything, it's that the politics of Northern Ireland have to be handled with extreme delicacy. Because if anything's going to tackle the punishment beatings and the cabals of the council estates, it's going to be some kind of stable, representative government in the province which looks out to both communities.

And it's slow, and it's painful. And it demands a respectful silence from those across the sea, on both sides. There are no tales of revolutionary heroism here. This is not Braveheart, this is not The Patriot, this is just a fucking mess.

(Many, many friends from college come from the province, mainly from the Unionist community. As for me, I'm the descendent of Irish Catholics, though that doesn't make me "Irish" by any stretch.)
posted by holgate at 6:04 PM on July 5, 2000

Before my father passed away he did research on our family name. And we learned about where my grandmother's family came from. And I've learned where my mother's blood derives even though she was adopted. I'm proud of my irish heritage just as I'm proud of my english heritage and my scottish heritage and my slavic heritage and my french-cajun heritage. It all adds up to what makes me a living example of the american melting pot. Most of all I'm proud to be an american. And a loudmouthed one at that.

A respectful silence?? I will make fun of and point fingers at atrocities and violent stupidity wherever I see it on this planet. It's how I deal with it. If the day comes (and no doubt it will cuz I'm a loudmouthed bastard) when some idiot points a gun at me for something I said, I will probably be shaking in my sneakers and tears will be streaming down my face but just before he pulls the trigger something funny will pop in my head and I'll say it right to his face. Then I'll be laughing at him all the way to the afterlife.

Violence should not be approached with respect. It is stupid. It does not solve anything. Might does not make right. It just temporarily ends the conversation until someone else comes along to carry the fallen banner.

The problems of northern Ireland are based on an ancient argument whose end has come. No more bombing people's homes. No more killing innocent people in the name of anything. I'm sick of it. Maybe you think it doesn't apply to me cuz I'm on the other side of the Atlantic. That's bullshit. We're all stuck on this spinning rock in space together. We're not going anywhere. It's high time we learn to put up with each other. Cuz the world is getting smaller.

Respectful silence my ass. Where's the respectful silence when the bombs explode? Where's the respectful silence when the guns go off? I see the affects of gang-related violence in my own neighborhood. Don't tell me Northern Ireland has cornered the market on domestic terrorism.
posted by ZachsMind at 6:56 PM on July 5, 2000

Respectful, Zach, in the sense that every effort Britain (or more specifically England) has made to deal with "the Irish problem" for good or ill in the past, um, six hundred years or so, has turned out a mess. And the efforts from across the water haven't convinced me that they don't contribute to the self-same fucking mess. (George Mitchell excepted.)

Respectful in the sense that sometimes the soft-spoken words echo loudest. Vincent Hanna, God rest his soul, made that point with quiet conviction: Politics (and by that I mean constitutional politics, not just the paramilitaries) works differently there from Westminster. It's almost as if the spin doctors and the soundbites have yet to arrive. Probably because political discussion matters in a way that it doesn't on the mainland, when it means the difference between war and peace.
posted by holgate at 12:40 AM on July 6, 2000

Tom & Holgate, as usual you're gentle voices of reason in a room full of empty vessels. It's no wonder Sinn Fein and the IRA have looked to 'Irish' Americans for so much of their funding.
Anyone who has contributed to the violence on either side, whether directly (physically) or indirectly (monetarily) should be ashamed. Gangcandy, perhaps you should spend some time with your Irish relatives in the provinces and experience what the people who are directly affeced by the violence and uncertainty of the situation go through.
posted by Markb at 3:57 AM on July 6, 2000

Okay, on behalf of this side of the Atlantic, I hereby wish to apologize profusely for any attempts by my gov't to stick their fingers in and help to make a worse mess of things than what was already there. But America, Great Britain, no country can fix this except the individuals that make up Ireland itself.
posted by ZachsMind at 8:00 PM on July 6, 2000

The problem is Zachsmind, at present N. Ireland *IS* part of Great Britain, that's ultimately what the argument is about.
But it's certainly not Americas fight.
posted by Markb at 3:23 AM on July 7, 2000

"Although it's too soon to be definitive, we would assess (the bomb was) probably the work of the Real IRA" Lemme be sure I understand this. There's the IRA, who extremists would say sold out, and then there's now The Real IRA. So a bunch of extreme IRA supporters decided, "well, they sold us out for peace. They want to stop blowing people away. Well then, they're not the real IRA. WE ARE." and people are going around calling them the Real IRA. Can I be part of The Unreal IRA? How about the Virtually Purple Polkadotted IRA? How about the Nearly Indistinguishable From "The Almost As Real IRA" Except For The Fact We're Completely Naked IRA?

Am I the only person participating in this Link Detail who sees the audacity and tragic humor of this whole situation? The rest of you are taking it so seriously. Cut that out. Sure the young people of Ireland are tragically blowing each other up and giving the police a hard time but gee whiz at least they're not vegging in front of a tv rotting their brains away, right? They have to run away from police and carry heavy artillery. The youth of Ireland are getting more exercise. This is good for them. It's healthy. Gets the blood pumping.

Orange sashes and black hats. Now THERE's a fashion statement.
posted by ZachsMind at 5:37 AM on July 9, 2000

As an American Zach, you have no fucking clue at all about NI. Americans rarely
do (sorry for any offence, but it's true). I strongly suggest you get one.

Can I take the piss out of Tim McVeigh and what he did at Oklahoma? How about
taking the piss out of troubles in East Timor? Or the former Yugoslavia?
No. It's not acceptable. Nor is taking the piss out of NI. There is very, very
little humour in the situation, certainly where the RealIRA are concerned, having
committed the worse atrocity of the entire mess that is over 30 years of violence
and death on the island of Ireland.

Now, let me tell you a little bit about the worst atrocity of the troubles
in NI, committed by the Real IRA. Maybe you will understand why I get so uptight
over it.
The Omagh car combing occurred on August 15th 1998, killing 30 civilians, including
young kids, babies, and pregnant women. The terrorists called the police, informing
them there was a car bomb at the town hall. There wasn't. The car bomb in fact
was in the main street of the town, right down from the town hall. So the police
guided people down this street, not knowing that the bomb was there. It went
off while people were beside it, in front of it, all around it. The steet was
a mess. people were blown to pieces, or thrown into shop windows. Hundreds were
injured, the worse cases being extremely severe burns, and a lot lost limbs.
That's the tip of the iceberg. My family knew people in that bomb. My mother
went to school with some of the wounded. My aunt has an inlaw living there,
who was only able to identify the shattered body of is his fiancee by the necklace
barely hanging on to her neck. The next few days at my house consisted of the
phone ringing with relatives in the North telling us who had been killed, and
who had been wounded. It was not pleasant. It most certainly was not funny,
Zach.

I guess joking abouy this would be like joking with a Jew about what the Nazis
did.

posted by tomcosgrave at 7:27 AM on July 9, 2000

PS - Them Real IRA guys sure are prime
targets for swiping jokes at right Zach?

Shut the fuck up.

posted by tomcosgrave at 7:36 AM on July 9, 2000

What can I say in re. to "ZACH's mind".........people like that (Zach) show a lack of mind. I am a Native American (Comanche) and have seen too many people in the US with that type of mindset. It is not only sad that a human can get that depraved, seeing humor in the destruction of others, but it also shows the problems that prevails in the US. Racism, bigotry, intolerance, are an everyday occurance in the US. People like Zach are the root-cause of the problem.
Non-white Americans have to live with this ignorant excuse of Humanity everyday of their lives. All I can say is :" It isn't easy!!!"

I forgive you Zach, for your ignorance!

What a MORON!!!!


Marie
posted by Quanah at 9:47 AM on July 9, 2000

Right on Marie.

Sorry to everyone for the swearing by the way, but I was angry.
posted by tomcosgrave at 12:11 PM on July 9, 2000

Right on Marie.

Sorry to everyone for the swearing by the way, but I was angry.
posted by tomcosgrave at 12:16 PM on July 9, 2000