Does vomiting count as fasting? Then sign me up for this one!

February 24, 2003 10:08 PM

Fast for George W. Bush."If you are willing to fast at least one day a month primarily for George W. Bush's holiness (and other areas, such as bipartisan work among the Democrats and Republicans, Wisdom in his work, wisdom for his cabinet, healing for our nation, etc. ... but primarily holiness) then we encourage you to sign up and join us [...] Our goal is to have 1,000 people fasting for the President each day. That will greatly encourage him and keep him accountable when the Evil One seeks to sidetrack him from his commitment to the Lord. "
posted by XQUZYPHYR (92 comments total)

I know there will be snides about this...but, I for one as a Catholic like the idea of this...I'll be fasting in a few weeks anyways and think this is a great idea not only b/c I think fasting works (though lets not harp on that point) but will make the people who fast (OK, who REALLY do fast) think about it. I also like that it says no political affiliation...Doesn't say pray for war or peace or oil...just to pray for him.
posted by jmd82 at 10:30 PM on February 24, 2003

Umm... before anyone else makes a comment connecting my posting to the first comment's context, can I just make it clear that I posted this because I think it's the most disturbingly ridiculous thing ever?
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 10:34 PM on February 24, 2003

I'll fast for him if he promises to eat more pretzels for me.
posted by condour75 at 10:38 PM on February 24, 2003

XQ, don't worry about it. I think it was crystal clear.
posted by condour75 at 10:39 PM on February 24, 2003

Did Clinton have bizarre shrines to him like this? Was there a "beat one off for slick willie" masturbation drive that I missed?
posted by mathowie at 10:42 PM on February 24, 2003

Yes. At least, that's why I was doing it. I can't speak for anyone else.
posted by jonson at 10:52 PM on February 24, 2003

Why shouldn't we sign up for our birthday? The whole idea was to sign up for a date that was not your birthday so that you could enjoy your birthday cake!

and

Please excuse Christmas, Thanksgiving and Easter as days to fast on... and don't choose your birth date. (unless you don't like birthday cake!)

They're very concerned about you and your birthday cake.
posted by tss at 10:52 PM on February 24, 2003

matt... don't know about "beat one off for slick wille", but there is one for peace in general warning: adult humour
posted by mb01 at 10:55 PM on February 24, 2003

the most disturbingly ridiculous thing ever?

Disturbing? By what standard? People drinking draino and blowing up things as a consequence of religious sentiments is disturbing. People with a religious belief in fasting, and a specific hope that fasting for a better president will have some effect... well, whether you view that as an admiral act of faith or a pitiful and naive gesture, it seems harmless at worst.
posted by namespan at 10:56 PM on February 24, 2003

I think it's the most disturbingly ridiculous thing ever?

Yea, we know you do. What the hell us could you have been posting it for? The first poster surprised ya huh. What, do you go lookin' for this stuff or something? Let's discuss how ridiculous XQUZYPHYR thinks this is. No wait, even better... and more creative, let's use this space to come up with as many clever quips and jokes about Bush and his administration as we can.

Me first!

"Your name will be put on a list for that day. Then two days before that date comes up, I will be sending you a reminder via e-mail to fast on that day. If for whatever reason you cannot make it, e-mail me and let me know. I will make sure someone is fasting for that day."

And if I can't make you fast, than you can be damn sure that Homeland Security stormtroopers will. Haha@!
posted by Witty at 10:56 PM on February 24, 2003

You're so hostile. I'll pray for you, Witty.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 11:01 PM on February 24, 2003

I don't see what the problem is here.

If you really believe in this, it can do no harm.

On the other hand, if you think fasting for Bush is a load of old cobblers, it can do no harm. (Other than perhaps causing teeny amounts of damage to society through the drop in demand for food, health effects of fasting, etc).

It's a variation on Pascal's wager.

Either way, who cares? I don't.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:01 PM on February 24, 2003

Save it XQUZYPHYR.
posted by Witty at 11:07 PM on February 24, 2003

*shrug* the church I go to is left-leaning and I'm fairly sure that the vast majority of parishoners are against pretty much everything Bush stands for--especially war with Iraq. Yet we pray for Bush every Sunday. There's not anything even remotely contradictory about this.

The website even says that they would have done it for Clinton if they had thought of it earlier, although presumably the guy running this site didn't care much for his politics or, uh, personal habits.
posted by boltman at 11:09 PM on February 24, 2003

'I've got a right to be hostile--my people're bein' prosecuted!'
posted by Witty at 11:10 PM on February 24, 2003

How come no one ever finds weird Hindu sites and then makes a post so we can all mock their beliefs?
posted by cinderful at 11:15 PM on February 24, 2003

Cinderful - I'm trying, but I'm really having a hard time finding any. Clearly the Hindus have mastered the art of no spider meta-tags!
posted by jonson at 11:20 PM on February 24, 2003

Eh, it's lame that they think for one second that Bush or his administration have any intent except the furthering of their own mega-evil goals, therefore, these people are fasting for mega-evil, which in turn makes them deserve our ridicule. Which I think is what XQUZYPHYR was trying to say.

Actually, tomorrow I'm going to start fasting for the people fasting for Bush, in the hopes that they stop fasting for stupid things, and start fasting for important, worthwhile fasting issues. Like anorexia.
posted by jdaura at 11:21 PM on February 24, 2003

How come no one ever finds weird Hindu sites and then makes a post so we can all mock their beliefs? posted by cinderful

Because Kali gets cranky! And nobody wants that.
posted by dejah420 at 11:48 PM on February 24, 2003

Cinderful - best line ever from Simpsons:

"Oh my multiple gods!" - Apu

Blessed are those without reverence, the mockers, etc. Or more probably, amused.
posted by namespan at 11:49 PM on February 24, 2003

How come no one ever finds weird Hindu sites and then makes a post so we can all mock their beliefs?

Here's a post about Shiva that inspired some snarky comments.
posted by homunculus at 11:57 PM on February 24, 2003

I think the idea seems pretty good, and not "ridiculous" or "funny" in the least.
posted by hama7 at 11:59 PM on February 24, 2003

As has been stated, on the one hand, it's kinda nice. I mean hey, assuming that holiness is a good thing, and noting that the idea of a thousand people not eating in hopes that he'll not do evil things keeps Bush from doing evil things is a nice idea... Well, it's sort of warm and fuzzy.

So I think your interpretation is wonky, jdaura. Regardless of what Bush actually does, they're fasting for good.

Of course, yes, it's just as wacky as every other religious belief out there. Furthermore, the single day, don't-forget-the-birthday-cake thing is also mockable, and maybe even legitimately so. I mean really. The whole point of fasting is, in theory, denying one's self something substantive, right? They're not even willing to give up something as flaky as birthday cake, so even if fasting had some sort of effect, I doubt their particular brand would do a whole lot.
posted by kavasa at 11:59 PM on February 24, 2003

I respect this belief and think it's a great idea!!

On the other hand, I wish all of the people deciding to fast for the president would do the decidedly more difficult action and become informed and active citizens. I wish we could stop applying faith based rhetoric, sincere as it may be, to concepts and actions that are motivated by extremely non-religious drives. It isn't "Holy Oil."

Go God! That's all we need to make it through! It worked for Jesus!
posted by lazaruslong at 12:13 AM on February 25, 2003

I wish we could stop applying faith based rhetoric, sincere as it may be, to concepts and actions that are motivated by extremely non-religious drives.

Well, if you're faith-based - then it applies to everything. Christians believe that prayer is one of the most powerful actions a person can take.
posted by cinderful at 12:40 AM on February 25, 2003

So I think your interpretation is wonky, jdaura. - the problem for me is that the concept expressed on the heartlight.org site is the classic cyanide kool aid mix of religion and politics. It smacks of Ralph Reed and the Christian Right.

Here's a quote from the site -
George W. Bush is a believer and carries our Father’s reputation in the actions he takes. (I can only wish we had been doing this for President Clinton.)

Jesus wasn't into partisan politics.
posted by jdaura at 12:42 AM on February 25, 2003

jdaura, I interpreted that quote as meaning that the guy was sorry that they had not been doing the same thing for Clinton because he too was a believer, and thus his actions--like Bush's--reflected on all Christians. So he's an equal-opportunity faster. That's exactly the opposite of partisan.
posted by boltman at 1:49 AM on February 25, 2003

ah, on re-reading the quote I think you may be right. I read it initially as differentiating between the two presidents by "believer" and "non believer", suggesting more worthiness on Bush as deserving of fasting. He may just be expressing remorse for not beginning the fasting before Bush was elected.
posted by jdaura at 1:56 AM on February 25, 2003

First, Christians are commanded to pray for secular leaders.

Second, I am getting pretty doggone tired of people imputing evil motives for Bush. Just because you don't agree for the necessity of war, you want to demonize him.
That is a crock of fertilizer.

I do kinda wish people would quit posting this kind of thing because it just sets up a target for people to mock.
posted by konolia at 3:13 AM on February 25, 2003

Christians believe that prayer is one of the most powerful actions a person can take.

Well said, and it is the one of the most powerful actions a person can take. And not just Christians, but religious people of every stripe. Religion is one of our (humanity's) greatest accomplishments worldwide.

In South Korea, I've missed the part where everybody sneers condescendingly when Buddhist monks pray for the President's prosperity. They don't, because it's meant to be for goodness, and South Korean Christians do it too, regardless of party affiliation.

it just sets up a target for people to mock.

It's all in the framing of the post. This one set out to mock the "disturbingly ridiculous" aspect of Christian fasting and prayer, and I'm not so sure it succeeded. I have the utmost respect for fellow Christians and the Christian tradition, including Christian morality and ethics. Western culture would be nothing at all without it. (Not to mention Christian ascetics.)

And I don't think I'm alone in saying that Bush will be one our greatest presidents in history. We're lucky to have him.
posted by hama7 at 3:49 AM on February 25, 2003

I'm with konolia... but i mean, should anything be off limits here? someone posted a pissing game, another a link to duct tape conspiracy, what is and what isn't worth sharing?
posted by phylum sinter at 3:51 AM on February 25, 2003

And I don't think I'm alone in saying that Bush will be one our greatest presidents in history.

No, I'm sure that prominent Christians like Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell would agree with you.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 4:17 AM on February 25, 2003

Hama7 - I believe you've confused the words "great" and "notorious".

The "Heartlight Magazine" linked to on the Fasting page has a plethora of articles, like the suggestive "Brush with Bush

Anyone who considers joining this fast as a partisan politics neutral effort is sadly deluded. This might as well have been dreamed up by Karl Rove.

It makes me want to start my own initiative "Vomit for Bush" which will create a powerfull spiritual impetus to expell him from the body politic.

"I know the human and fish can coexist" - GW Bush
posted by troutfishing at 4:33 AM on February 25, 2003

It makes me want to start my own initiative "Vomit for Bush" which will create a powerfull spiritual impetus to expell him from the body politic.

I. Love. You.
posted by lazaruslong at 4:38 AM on February 25, 2003

may saint anthony of padua look after him.
posted by quonsar at 5:25 AM on February 25, 2003

Lazarus - I. Love. You. too. (ILYT)
posted by troutfishing at 5:52 AM on February 25, 2003

That will greatly encourage him and keep him accountable when the Evil One seeks to sidetrack him from his commitment to the Lord.

I'm afraid it's way too late for that, isn't it Cheney?

And I don't think I'm alone in saying that Bush will be one our greatest presidents in history.

Funniest. Post. Ever.
posted by nofundy at 6:07 AM on February 25, 2003

well, whether you view that as an admiral act of faith

When did Laurie Garrett join MeFi?

HAW HAW.



Sorry.
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:49 AM on February 25, 2003

And I don't think I'm alone in saying that Bush will be one our greatest presidents in history.
(tumbleweed rolls by)
Onion horoscope, sometime in 2000:
If it makes you feel any better, after the next four years they'll never elect a Republican again.
posted by condour75 at 6:54 AM on February 25, 2003

I'm going to "Anti-Fast" for George W. Bush by suturing my asshole shut and eating constantly until I burst in a huge explosion of shit - conveniently caught on video, of course - thus graphically depicting, as performance art, the true nature of the Bush Administration.
posted by troutfishing at 7:02 AM on February 25, 2003

Sutured-asshole homicide bombers are why we must cut funding for the NEA.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 7:16 AM on February 25, 2003

This brings up the conundrum of the efficacy of prayer and other sacramental acts. If one is going to bother believing in the kind of God who answers petitionary prayer, and who responds to fasts, then it makes sense that God would do what is just and right regardless of the intent of the person fasting. Hence the bit about "Thy will be done" in the Lord's prayer. Even the most fundagelical Christians I know believe that God can and will do what is in accordance with truth and right and they pray with that in mind. Obviously the organizers of the fast have their personal political beliefs, but I think it's fair to say they expect God to do something just, even if justice means doing something they don't expect.
Christians have always prayed for their leaders, regardless of their leaders' politics. At the same time, I do wonder if the organizers of the fast are keeping Isaiah 58 in mind, in which "true fasting" is described (In this passage God is speaking) :

"Is this not the fast which I choose,
To loosen the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the bands of the yoke,
And to let the oppressed go free
And break every yoke?
Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry
And bring the homeless poor into the house;
When you see the naked, to cover him;
And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?"

Isaiah links true fasting with good faith practice - are we feeding the poor? Championing the oppressed? Clothing the naked? If not, then perhaps a fast for the President isn't where things should start.
But I don't know the organizers of the fast. For all I know they are keeping Isaiah 58 in mind.

I can't believe I'm siding with hama7 here, but this link was mean-spirited and quite judgmental. I think G.W. Bush is an idiot and a crook, and I disagree on most things with fundy Christians, but what exactly is the point of mocking an essentially good-hearted gesture? If you don't believe the fast will accomplish anything, then, um, nothing will be accomplished. If you do believe the fast will accomplish something, then you're either operating on the idea that a being like God could be manipulated by prayer like a magic trick or you know that God would do what is right and just. In any of these cases, mockery serves no purpose, except to piss people off.
Plus, it makes for a very poor liberalism, IMHO. Is that what liberals do now? Mock what we do not understand? This builds a tolerant, peaceful society how?
Peace begins at home. I have little respect for people who cry for peace in our foreign policy but can't practice peace in their daily lives.
posted by eustacescrubb at 7:27 AM on February 25, 2003

Eustacescrubb, you have genuinely humbled me. I was all ready to chime in with the mocking, but you have made your point eloquently enough to cut through my morning surliness, and to make me remember my own ethics.

I don’t personally believe that fasting will help make Bush any less of a malevolent nitwit, but I do deeply admire the impulse to make personal sacrifices in order to better the world. That is a precious and rare thing, whether or not it’s practical.
posted by Fenriss at 7:49 AM on February 25, 2003

what exactly is the point of mocking an essentially good-hearted gesture?

Bloody hell, if you can't laugh at people who think stopping eating will influence world events, who CAN you laugh at? Get a grip.
posted by Summer at 8:11 AM on February 25, 2003

I think this is a great idea, and all religious nuts fanatics should most certainly participate. But why stop at just one day? Keep going, slackers! If one day of starving yourself helps the president, think about how much a month or year of pointless, inane self-denial will help him.

The rest of us won't mind a bit, either. Darwin, anyone?
posted by toothgnip at 8:11 AM on February 25, 2003

Summer, stopping eating has influenced world events. Or have you never heard of Gandhi?
posted by eustacescrubb at 8:13 AM on February 25, 2003

This isn't a hunger strike eustacescrubb so don't call it one.
posted by Summer at 8:18 AM on February 25, 2003

eustacescrubb - why not fast for world peace? - that the world's political leaders may learn to settle national differences without warfare? Most of the world's pressing problems could be addressed by diverting a fraction -of the money spent on arms around the world- towards human needs. That, in my mind, is a project worthy of a fast.
posted by troutfishing at 8:21 AM on February 25, 2003

eustacescrubb - (sincerity) why not fast for world peace? - that the world's political leaders may learn to settle national differences without warfare? Most of the world's pressing problems could be addressed by diverting a fraction -of the money spent on arms around the world- towards human needs. That, in my mind, is a project worthy of a fast. (/sincerity)
posted by troutfishing at 8:23 AM on February 25, 2003

Oh, so now we're distinguishing between hunger strikes and fasts?

Gandhi called his "hunger strike" a fast, and he fasted based on his religious beliefs. He believed that self-sacrifice could indeed change world events. He believed this because of his spirituality, not in spite of it. You disagree with him; that's fine. But do him and us a favor and don't try and secularize what he was about.

troutfishing:

There are people who do indeed fast for world peace. But they are not (at least not yet) being mocked on MeFi. Though I'm sure if we give the cynics enough time...
posted by eustacescrubb at 8:24 AM on February 25, 2003

hell, why not fast for a month straight? guys, the very moral fabric and secruity of our nation is at stake here, why not take it the extra mile?
posted by mcsweetie at 8:26 AM on February 25, 2003

Oh, so now we're distinguishing between hunger strikes and fasts?

Er, yes. Because they're completely different things.

There are people who do indeed fast for world peace. But they are not (at least not yet) being mocked on MeFi. Though I'm sure if we give the cynics enough time...

Bring them here. I'll mock them.
posted by Summer at 8:30 AM on February 25, 2003

A little humor, a little theology, a thread more interesting than I thought it would be (except for the people calling each other relgious and secular poopyheads)...

I'm a liberal Dem and a Methodist. A bulletin insert at my church last Sunday included two prayers for peace on one side, and the email addys of various politicians on the flip.

Me, I email first, pray second.

From the linked site:
Recently, our family watched as our nation chose a president. Now that George W. Bush is in, I can only hope and pray that the scandals that happened to President Clinton will not happen to him. George W. Bush is a believer and carries our Father’s reputation in the actions he takes.

Make up your own mind whether he's saying Clinton isn't a believer, or whether you agree that W is a holy person. (I also disagree that "the nation" chose the current prez. More like Dubya's brother's cronies and the Supreme Court. But that's another 100 MeFi threads.)
posted by NorthernLite at 8:37 AM on February 25, 2003

Er, yes. Because they're completely different things.

To you. But not to Gandhi.

"My religion teaches me that whenever there is distress which one cannot remove, one must fast and pray." -- Gandhi, 31 March 1920

And not to the millions of religious people across the world. Nearly every religion has a tradition of fasting. And all traditions fast precisely because they believe fasting, like prayer, and the thousands of other sacramental acts they perform as part of their faith practice, affects the material world. People are religious because they believe being religious affects the material world.
It is understandable for you to disagree with them, but mocking them won't make the world a more peaceful place.
posted by eustacescrubb at 8:40 AM on February 25, 2003

Summer continues to prove what an asshole he/she/it is.

...and start fasting for important, worthwhile fasting issues.

How naive. More important, worthwhile issues?

...why not take it the extra mile?

At your lead? Doubt it! Maybe you can get slacker toothgnip to help you organize.
posted by Witty at 8:41 AM on February 25, 2003

O' Defenders Of All Things Duhbya!

Shall you not fast for many days?

Shall you not summon your brethen to join in your fast to save your fearless feckless leader from the sins of his predecessor?

Shall you not loudly proclaim this opportunity to serve the Boy King far and wide upon the FreeRepublic web site, RushLimbaugh.com, the WeaklyWorldNews and Faux News?

Go forth now and do as I have proclaimed and be good little dumb sheep!
posted by nofundy at 8:51 AM on February 25, 2003

Go forth now and do as I have proclaimed and be good little dumb sheep!

Erg. This thread might make me want to cut up my liberal card. I know every political group has its self-righteous assholes, but it always smarts when one has to confront those in one's own group...
posted by eustacescrubb at 8:58 AM on February 25, 2003

Maybe you can get slacker toothgnip to help you organize.

organize what? I'm freakin' hungry, dude.
posted by mcsweetie at 8:59 AM on February 25, 2003

eustacescrubb, there is plenty of room over here... especially on MeFi. It's not as bad as fonundy might have you believe.
posted by Witty at 9:13 AM on February 25, 2003

there is plenty of room over here... especially on MeFi. It's not as bad as fonundy might have you believe.

Heh. But then I'd get just as agonized over every other remark by hama7 or ParisParamus.
posted by eustacescrubb at 9:17 AM on February 25, 2003

It is understandable for you to disagree with them, but mocking them won't make the world a more peaceful place.

Well, you see, now you're presuming that mockery is something negative whereas it's just a natural reaction to something ridiculous. Yes, this is ridiculous and I will say so. World peace will remain unaffected.
posted by Summer at 9:21 AM on February 25, 2003

XQetc: Yea, I knew that your intention from the FPP was to insinuate that this is the most disturbingly ridiculous thing ever. But, I think a lot of things are disturbingly ridiculous out there, namely how seemingly every single Christian idea out there is labeled as disturbingly ridiculous by some of out local members. I stand by what I said in my first comment, but also thought it'de be fun to throw in the complete opposite of your intentions.
posted by jmd82 at 9:33 AM on February 25, 2003

Summer, mockery is negative because in order for mockery to work, the mocked must be reduced to an object in they eyes of the mocker. Objectification leads to seeing people as something to be used or got out of the way, as in, say, slavery, or war.
If one bothers to try and look at other human beings as subjects, mockery ceases to be funny.
posted by eustacescrubb at 9:34 AM on February 25, 2003

Of course, those thousand people who are fasting for Bush's betterment on any given day are doing one helluva lot more toward establishing world peace than any of you.

I am firmly areligious and generally thinly tolerant of religionists, but I don't see any need to mock those people who are fasting. I don't believe their fasting itself will do one damn bit of good -- but their increased level of awareness surely will.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:40 AM on February 25, 2003

scrubb:

Don't you think that a hunger strike and a fast are different? I suppose they can be simultaneous.... but the focus is different. One is centered around political pressure and the mechanism is publicity. The other is centered around the idea of drawing on spiritual power.

konolia:
Second, I am getting pretty doggone tired of people imputing evil motives for Bush. Just because you don't agree for the necessity of war, you want to demonize him.

I only have Bush's actions and political rhetoric to judge him by. Few of them seem good by the standards I've come to use, most of them Christian.

And disagreeing on the neccessity of a war is actually one of the best reasons to demonize someone. An uneccessary war is one of the least moral actions I can think of.
posted by namespan at 9:59 AM on February 25, 2003

but their increased level of awareness surely will

How does fasting raise awareness? Reading about stuff - that raises awareness. If you want to know what action I'll be taking - I'll be not voting for Tony Blair. There's not much else I can do.

Summer, mockery is negative because in order for mockery to work, the mocked must be reduced to an object in they eyes of the mocker. Objectification leads to seeing people as something to be used or got out of the way, as in, say, slavery, or war.

No. Mockery, when based on the actions of the person rather than demonisation, can be fully aware of the humanity of the person being mocked. Bringing slavery and war into it is a cheap shot.
posted by Summer at 10:01 AM on February 25, 2003

Metafilter: bring them here, and we will mock them.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:09 AM on February 25, 2003

Don't you think that a hunger strike and a fast are different? I suppose they can be simultaneous.... but the focus is different.

Just as ballast to what scrubb's been saying: Not as far as Gandhi was concerned. Used to drive Nehru and Mountbatten nuts that Gandhi'd insist on fasting and/or meditating on every other political issue during the Indian independence movement.

Later, when the brutal communal rioting broke out at independence, Gandhi occupied a Muslim neighbourhood in Calcutta and fasted, hoping to bring about peace (which, in that neighbourhood, he did).

You could argue that the first examples are political - i.e. hunger strikes - and the latter spiritual - i.e. fasts - but I'm pretty sure Gandhi saw no difference at all.
posted by gompa at 10:27 AM on February 25, 2003

Of course, those thousand people who are fasting for Bush's betterment on any given day are doing one helluva lot more toward establishing world peace than any of you.

how so?

also, is the Evil One the same as The First One in the new season of Buffy The Vampire Slayer?
posted by mcsweetie at 10:28 AM on February 25, 2003

Don't you think that a hunger strike and a fast are different?

I see the distinction, but Summer's initial mockery was that "stopping eating" doesn't affect world events, which doesn't distinguish between the two.
If we are distinguishing between the two, then Gandhi was, according to his own words, fasting, precisely because he believed spiritual actions affected the world.

Summer:

No. Mockery, when based on the actions of the person rather than demonisation, can be fully aware of the humanity of the person being mocked.

Yes, but you're not doing that here. You're mocking people's beliefs, and by your own words, at them: "if you can't laugh at people who think stopping eating will influence world events" . The only way that it'd be okay to mock people's beliefs would be to operate on the assumption that beliefs don't matter or that they're not important to the people who hold them. Anyone who's ever really believed something knows that it is impossible to separate one's beliefs from one's identity, unless one has already discarded the belief.

Either way, the point your mockery was trying to make still ultimately objectifies religious people - people who believe in a causality indescribable by science or math. If you're mocking a person's belief, you do have to objectify them.

Bringing slavery and war into it is a cheap shot.

No it wasn't. I'm not making an analogy between slavery and war and mockery; I'm saying that in order for there to be peace, people must be peaceable. Mockery is not peaceable; it is a kind of aggression. If we are aggressors in small things, like with respecting the beliefs of others, then we cannot expect that, as a society, we can be peaceable.
posted by eustacescrubb at 10:41 AM on February 25, 2003

When I was back there in seminary school, There was a person there
Who put forth the proposition, That you can petition the Lord with prayer
Petition the lord with prayer,
Petition the lord with prayer
You cannot petition the lord with prayer!
posted by SteveInMaine at 11:00 AM on February 25, 2003

hey! that's MY schtick!
posted by quonsar at 11:09 AM on February 25, 2003

self-righteous assholes

Gee, thanks EustaceScrubb! I didn't know you cared so deeply for me and my righteousness! Are we pals now that we've gone throught that bonding experience together?

And speaking of assholes, how are you doing today? C'mon, laugh a little! It's just as theraputic as fasting.

If I'm gonna fast for something it's gonna be how fast Duhbya gets his asshole out of Gore's House!
posted by nofundy at 11:21 AM on February 25, 2003

I didn't know you cared so deeply for me and my righteousness! Are we pals now that we've gone throught that bonding experience together?

I have.... no clue what you're on about there, nofundy... To say someone is "self-righteous" is not to express concern for thier "righteousness", but rather to say that they come off as righteous in their own eyes.

And speaking of assholes, how are you doing today?

Very well, thank you, aside from a cold I'm getting over. And you?

C'mon, laugh a little!

I will, but I try not to laugh at the expense of other people.

It's just as theraputic as fasting.

Fasting != therapy. So are you saying laughter is not theraputic?

If I'm gonna fast for something it's gonna be how fast Duhbya gets his asshole out of Gore's House!

It's actually our House; it belongs to the American people. And if you fast for Bush's removal, then you'll have just put Cheney in his place, and who wants that?
posted by eustacescrubb at 11:36 AM on February 25, 2003

Once again proving the maxim: The ones who know FOR SURE what's right and wrong are the ones who are furthest from a clue.
posted by solistrato at 11:40 AM on February 25, 2003

If I'm gonna fast for something it's gonna be how fast Duhbya gets his asshole out of Gore's House!

What bitter bitter little baby.
posted by Witty at 11:48 AM on February 25, 2003

Look, this is just dumb. Fasting for the president? It's just dumb and deserves whatever mockery it attracts. This has been a fun thread to read, and I enjoyed everyone's points but I can't, for the life of me, understand what good fasting for W is going to do.

The whole thing does remind me of something my gradfather once said: "Boy, a Republican is a person who cannot enjoy a good meal unless they know someone else is starving."
posted by elwoodwiles at 12:00 PM on February 25, 2003

I can't, for the life of me, understand what good fasting for W is going to do.

Physically? Nothing. Nor do they necessarily claim it will. Spritually? Who knows? If you believe, then you believe. If you don't, you don't. Making fun if this... hell, you might as well make fun of ANY and ALL belief systems in the world.
posted by Witty at 12:32 PM on February 25, 2003

You call this link and thread mockery? In the words of Fielding Mellisch: "It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of two travesties of a mockery of a sham."
posted by rowell at 12:52 PM on February 25, 2003

XQUZYPHYR: can I just make it clear that I posted this because I think it's the most disturbingly ridiculous thing ever?

In other words: "I define myself by making fun of others, especially when their actions have no impact on my life. My superiority allows me to insult them. Yee-haw!"
posted by jsonic at 1:27 PM on February 25, 2003

fwiw, i think the reason this site is disturbing is because it shows that people i generally consider to be quite similar to me - people living in a culture not that different from where i grew up - are, in at least one respect, so different that i find it hard to understand them.

that's not meant as criticism, just honest self-analysis. someone asked why no-one is posting and mocking islamic (or was it hindu?) sites. i think the reason is that most people here are american, or at least "western", and so are feeling disturbed for the reason i've tried to explain above. in contrast, looking at a site from an "obviously different" culture doesn't produce the same dissonance...
posted by andrew cooke at 1:33 PM on February 25, 2003

In other words: "I define myself by making fun of others, especially when their actions have no impact on my life. My superiority allows me to insult them. Yee-haw!"

Nooooooo, in other words, I defined a link to a site many on this community would find interesting in an ambiguously silly and/or oddly fascinating way as, you know, a good post for MetaFilter. However, insults and feelings of superiority are indeed rampant in my response to you, because right now I frankly believe that you're being an obnoxious thin-skinned little prick just because I dared yet again to imply mockery to George W. Bush, your personal Lord and Savior. (And apparently hama7's.) But don't worry, I'll pray for you and Witty now.

Great. Where am I going to find two virgin goats at this hour?
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 3:17 PM on February 25, 2003

People at my church have fasted for pretty long times. (up to thirtysomething days.) Of course a lot of them did do a juice fast. It's no one's business here how long I have personally fasted (It's been a few years since I did) but I know from experience it does concentrate your thinking quite well.

Fasting for the president? It's just dumb and deserves whatever mockery it attracts.

That is a rude and disrespectful statement to the people of faith who genuinely care about the future of this nation and who are praying that the President make right decisions. For your information lots of us are praying that there will BE no war.

Anyway, the people some of you are mocking most likely are doing more than fasting and praying. But fasting and prayer is not useless. It surely does a lot more good than mocking and blatant disrespect. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to respectfully disagree with a President-why don't some of you try it instead of what usually passes for political commentary around here?
posted by konolia at 3:21 PM on February 25, 2003

No answer for my criticisms, huh, XQUZYPHYR? I guess serious debate is below you?
posted by eustacescrubb at 4:03 PM on February 25, 2003

I defined a link to a site many on this community would find interesting in an ambiguously silly and/or oddly fascinating way as, you know, a good post for MetaFilter

Then why did you say this:can I just make it clear that I posted this because I think it's the most disturbingly ridiculous thing ever?

Try and get your story straight.

George W. Bush, your personal Lord and Savior

You assume too much.
posted by jsonic at 5:24 PM on February 25, 2003

To clarify, my issue is that you feel justified in putting others down over issues that have no personal effect on your life. You're like a fundamentalist who thinks it's OK to judge gay people as being wrong, even though their actions have no effect on that fundamentalist's everyday life.

If somebody's actions infringe on your rights and affect your life, then speak up. Otherwise you're just being self-righteous and sanctimonious.
posted by jsonic at 5:34 PM on February 25, 2003

I do sincerely hope that all those who are so upset at fellow christians being mocked have never participated in those FPPs that are linked to some schizoid's webpage rantings.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:32 PM on February 25, 2003

You know what, I apologize for my original comment in this thread. XQUZYPHYR's tone hit a nerve, and I responded in a non-constructive manner. I still think that respecting people who are different than oneself is important, however, responding in a negative way isn't the best way to point this out.
posted by jsonic at 7:34 PM on February 25, 2003

I think I tend more towards Buddhism and Animism than towards Christianity (my birth religion) and so I am not inclined to pray or fast for (or to) GW Bush.........

I would withhold my spiritual energy, rather than give it to him - which might prevent his natural slide back down the incarnation chain ( for a few lives, at least) to gather a little more wisdom and compassion for his fellow beings.

Not that I am enlightened myself.
posted by troutfishing at 9:26 PM on February 25, 2003

eustacescrubb: people's beliefs are open season for mockery no matter what they are. Just because they're labelled religious doesn't make them off boundaries (same applies to any other label, such as scientific). And yes, they are linked to the identity of the person. But I fail to see how mockery objectifies that person. Do you really want to live in a world without mockery? Think about it.
posted by Summer at 2:55 AM on February 26, 2003

i, for one, will be dedicating all of my bowel movements to the dub henceforth.
"in his name, we pray..."
posted by quonsar at 5:51 AM on February 26, 2003

Summer: Racial mockery = bad... very, very bad. Right? Would it be ok to mock, say retarded children? Have you brushed your teeth today?
posted by Witty at 10:15 AM on February 26, 2003