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You don't drink milk!
March 2, 2003 3:22 AM   Subscribe

You don't drink milk! Your parents go crazy over you. You get scolded for this. Not anymore, you have reasons not to drink it. If those weren't enough there are even more reasons to avoid it. Richard Cohen went on a 205 day hunger strike.

If you are the one who cannot imagine life without milk, then you should read "why milk?"
posted by jayantk (64 comments total)

 
i always thought the "No other species in the world continues to drink mammilian milk after the age of weaning. No other species can survive and thrive on milk of a different species, unaltered." was a strange argument. is it even factual?
posted by dabitch at 3:49 AM on March 2, 2003


Even if it is factual, it's not a reason.
posted by Irontom at 4:02 AM on March 2, 2003


Yeah, so of the ten reasons not to drink milk, numbers 3 and possibly 9 seem like good reasons not to drink milk. The others are all varying degrees of bad argument... #4 is great: re-worded, it says that if you are femal and drink two gallons of milk every day of your adult life, you will probably get osteoperosis. Many good things, if taken in ridiculous quantities, will be bad for you. I dismiss #1 because the first half ("Milk calcium is poorly absorbed") doesn't really mean I shouldn't drink it, and the osteoperosis thing sounds like it comes from the ridiculous situation set up in #4. #10 doesn't actually state that dangerous levels of Vitamin D can sometimes be found in milk, and most of the rest just have nothing to do with whether or not milk is good for you. #5 and #8 might be credible if something results from them, otherwise it's just not being nice to animals.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a vegetarian and all, but the reasons presented here seem little better than the reasons we should go to war with Iraq. (sorry) I've never really gotten on the whole Vegan thing as a result. The best argument FOR veganism I know is that every Vegan I've ever encountered has been a bloody amazing cook. They get a lot of practice, what with having such a tiny selection if others are feeding them.
posted by kaibutsu at 4:08 AM on March 2, 2003


We did this very thing last October, and we've already started having the same arguments again.

I'll note in passing that what other animals can or can't do isn't really relevant to anything. No other animals can drive Formula 1 cars, or produce pornographic films, or write "The Eye of Argon." That doesn't say anything about whether we should or shouldn't do any of these things. If we happen to have evolved the mutant superpower to digest and enjoy milk, more power to us.

But I said more-or-less the same thing last October.

[HAL] This thread can serve no further useful purpose. Goodbye, Dave. [/HAL]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:18 AM on March 2, 2003


One doctor with an agenda and a commercial website alone hardly qualify as reliable sources.
posted by mischief at 4:40 AM on March 2, 2003


1. So what? Hamburgers don't give me more calcium either, but I don't care. Take supplements if you are at risk.

2, 3. So was second hand smoke, but it turned out that evidence was BS. Link with good proof or I ignore this.

4. No correlative proof. Was it a double-blind study? Probably not.

5. Yes, and almost all humans are infected with chicken pox.

6, 7. Seems like an argument for milk.

8. What's your point? If we stop drinking milk but eat 10 oz. steaks every day pfizer will be out of business?

9. So, these other countries, they all eat the same things as us except for milk? I mean, it has nothing to do with hamburgers, hotdogs, and poutine, right?

10. The increased vitamin D is because some milk isn't packaged in light-tight containers. The vitamin D breaks down under flourescent light. There's no conspiracy here.
posted by shepd at 5:00 AM on March 2, 2003


If we happen to have evolved the mutant superpower to digest and enjoy milk, more power to us.

Nice one. By the way everbody, you better stop eating all food and breathing gas and letting light into your precious eyes, because all those things KILL YOU DEAD! If you want any proof, just look at all the humans who have ever lived but are now dead. They died! Surely that is proof enough!
posted by mokey at 5:45 AM on March 2, 2003


As far as those 'reasons' go, they don't have any sources included.

And the 'go home' link is a 404.
posted by angry modem at 6:25 AM on March 2, 2003


Life is opportunistic, and protein is never wasted in nature. There is no more or less morality in some human populations evolving to consume other animals' milk than there is in some garter snake populations evolving an ability to eat deadly toxic rough-skinned newts.
posted by mcwetboy at 7:07 AM on March 2, 2003


I cut down drastically on dairy & wheat when I gave up smoking last November...only because the therapy I did (Bio Resonance) was an offshoot of allergy therapy & I had a long chat about allergies/body reactions with the therapist.

I wouldn't say it has changed my life completely but it has made a difference. Less bunged up in winter ;-)

One thing that always shocks me when I go to the US is the amount of dairy products in the ave. USian diet.
posted by i_cola at 7:17 AM on March 2, 2003


Most people including myself (white male) grew up believing that milk does a body good. Seemed like everywhere you looked all sorts of famous and important people were telling me drink more milk you will be healthier, you know stronger bones, teeth, etc. I would have kept right on doing it except someone introduced my to the images and the reality of where the milk is coming from, pictures that the milk people never want you to see. Ok, now I am talking about what i consider to be cruel treatment of living things, and i could fill pages about this, but everyone is going to feel differently about how we should or shouldn't treat animals, so i will save it, look through the cracks yourself, google, maybe checkout farm sanctuary's page. After what I have seen, I personally would never want to be a milk cow, especially here in america. Now this leads me back to looking at a time when people consumed milk at a different rate and in a different way, as a supplement, in moderation. Possibly ingested everyday, but not to the same amount and not as your only source of calcium. If anyone hasn't noticed lately, everyone around the US of A is obese. Not that milk is the sole reason, but it is the mentality that overuses milk that is applied to our consumption across the board. It is not just what you are eating but the way you are eating and the lack of concern/knowledge of what you are eating.

The main reason that I am a proponent of everyone at least trying to not drink or ingest any kind of milk products ( for at least two months) is that when I stopped my whining about how I could never give it up and that it would hurt me to do so, and I actually stopped drinking milk: Almost all of my allergies went away. It was like a cloud lifted out of my head and i was able to think clearly. Not sure if this was only metaphoric in thought(empowering), you know by being able to exert control on what I was eating I could now do the same for the rest of my life, or if there was an actual physiological response. I tend towards a mixture of both, but when i told my parents of this awakening, they responded, "Funny, you were allergic to cow's milk as an infant and we had to use soy instead, but after a period of time we reintroduced you to milk and you didn't have the same violent reactions so we thought that you had GOTTEN OVER IT!"

It has been two years living nearly dairy free, and no allergies or allergy medication anymore. I sometimes miss the comfort of cheese, but I gladly trade that in for clarity. I also try to be vegan as much as possible, in an attempt to decrease the amount of suffering in the world around me.

The wet blanket has been lifted from my mind, it may or may not help others to find new states of awareness and feeling, but one thing is for certain, if you do not try you will never know.

Thank you to the original poster for sharing this info and the comments in the search for truth.
posted by proof_nc at 7:28 AM on March 2, 2003


Milk gets way too much credit, it would seem. And the anti-milk sentiment expressed by some would strike me as a backlash against the disproportionate importance that has been placed on milk in North American culture over the last century.

Obviously these arguments aren't enough to convince me to stop drinking it altogether, but the 4 servings a day recommended by the Canada Food Guide (and I can only assume the American equivalent says something similar) is really way too much of anything.

I think the orange juice lobby needs to learn a thing or two from what the dairy industry has managed to do for itself.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:42 AM on March 2, 2003


Hey proof, I've never been diagnosed as having any allergies (however, dust does make me sneeze pretty easy). Yet I drink milk.

Maybe it's because I do it in moderation? As far as I can guess (never been diagnosed) I'm slightly lactose intolerant. If I were to drink 2 litres of milk in one day I'd probably swell up to the size of that girl who ate the forbidden gum in Willy Wonka's factory. As far as pure milk goes, a bowl of it with cereal is enough for me.

On that same point, did you know that by the same thinking (that one should quit something because if it isn't used in moderation it'll harm you) people should quit drinking water, since drinking too much will kill you? Yes, this is true, I one decided to test the result of drinking a whole 2L jug of koolaid in under a minute. It taught me a lesson! I wouldn't want to be drinking 1L (equivalent of 2 "pounds" of milk) of anything a day (although I probably do in soft drinks...).

I don't disbelieve that removing milk from your diet was beneficial to you, but I think for most people simply
posted by shepd at 7:46 AM on March 2, 2003


...need to moderate their milk usage.

How did that happen?
posted by shepd at 7:46 AM on March 2, 2003


Damn people get defensive about some strange things...
posted by Space Coyote at 7:56 AM on March 2, 2003


No other species can survive and thrive on milk of a different species, unaltered.
posted by spazzm at 7:58 AM on March 2, 2003


Pulp Fiction II - He ain't lactose intolerant, he's my brutha.
Vincent: You want some milk?

Jules: No, man, I don't do dairy.

Vincent: Are you vegan or lactose-intolerant?

Jules: No, I ain't vegan or lactose-intolerant, I just don't dig on dairy, that's all.

Vincent: Why not?

Jules: Cows are germ-infested animals. 60% of the dairy cows in the U.S. carry leukemia virus.
.

Vincent: But milk tastes good, cheese taste good...

Jules: Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the virus-carrying mofos. Milk is linked to colitis, earaches, colic, colds, congestion and allergies in young children. I don't eat nothin' that ain't got sense enough not to make little kids sick.

Vincent: How about a dog? A dog carries germs and viruses.

Jules: I don't eat dog either.

Vincent: Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a virus-infested animal?

Jules: I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog virus-infested, but it's definately germy. But, dogs got personality, personality goes a long way.

Vincent: So by that rationale, if a cow had a better personality, he would cease to be a virus-infested animal. Is that true?

Jules: We' have to be talkin' 'bout one charmin' mofo cow. I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that cow that jumped over the moon, you know what I'm sayin'?
posted by VelvetHellvis at 8:33 AM on March 2, 2003


Raw milk is very healthy for you. Pasturized and Homoginized and industrialized milk is very bad for you. So the anti-milk people say ALL milk is bad when in fact raw milk is an amazing miracle. Some people think they are hip and cool by rejecting milk, and they are right, modern milk is a dead skeleton, but what they are missing is the traditional milk humans have been eating for thousands of years is extremly healthy. here are some pro-milk links.
posted by stbalbach at 9:24 AM on March 2, 2003


I actually stopped drinking milk: Almost all of my allergies went away.

proof_nc, your experience is not uncommon a lot of people are alergic to pasturized milk. However studies done show that many of these same people are _not_ alergic to raw milk. You can test this theory by trying raw milk cheese which is commonly available. Cheese is easiest on the system since the milk sugar (lactose) is allready pre-digested by the bacteria. If you handle that than try raw milk. Your body is rejecting Frankenfood milk which is perfectly natural.
posted by stbalbach at 9:36 AM on March 2, 2003


Jumped in here to ask about the lack of sources and citations... Looks like its been covered.

That's the thing with vegans that always bothered me the most. Some of these people (ex-girlfriends, friends) are so MILITANT about it and, when asked for the reasoning, they hand me a pamphlet with something like this on it, with nary a legitimate SOURCE in site. Generalizations fail to persuade me.

There are reasons for vegetarianism, just as there are reasons against it. I think its a matter of taste (no pun intended). Although, most vegetarians I know (and there are a lot in this area) never seem to look very healthy, except for the few that regularly take many vitamin supplements...
posted by Espoo2 at 9:49 AM on March 2, 2003


I've never liked milk, even as a child the thought of drinking it just gagged me. I don't know why. I used to get grief in grade school in the lunch line, as I attempted to depart without taking my milk. The lunch lady always called me back and said "take your milk!" I'd just give it away to a friend then.

I don't think I'm lactose intolerant, since I love cheese and yogurt and other dairy products. And, oddly enough, I like condensed milk; in fact, that's how I used to eat my cereal as a tyke, with Pet milk on it.

So, anyway, it's just nice to hear one other voice in the distance besides mine not badgering about calcium and "milk does a body good" and all that.
posted by Oriole Adams at 9:50 AM on March 2, 2003


Spazzm - I find that article disturbing, yet strangely arousing...
posted by jonson at 10:02 AM on March 2, 2003


thanks spazzm - so norweigan womens milk can svae puuies from dying. :) Ah, I think I'll have a glass of raw milk now. :) [the fatty creamy yummy kind!]
posted by dabitch at 10:21 AM on March 2, 2003


what happends to my spellcheck?.. i must've pushed the wrong button.. sorry..
posted by dabitch at 10:21 AM on March 2, 2003


I'm going to say this as a theoritical proposition - so please don't jump on me as if I'm speaking from the throne of almight God or something....

Evolutionary processes tends towards (relative) optimization. Species are superbly optimized for ambient conditions (with a distribution, from the midpoint, of slightly less than optimal traits as a hedge against contingencies and unexpected changes in environment). Species biology is highly optimized as well......

Human milk is optimized for the nutritional needs of baby humans.

Cow milk is optimized for the nutritional needs of baby cows.

Both types of milk contain natural levels of growth hormones which are geared towards the growth needs of human infants or of calves - levels which would be less than optimal for the needs of adult specimens of either species. It is for this reason that human growth hormones are not usually prescribed for humans below the age threshold of 35-40, which is the point in life at which humans of both sexes experience a drop in body growth hormone production: because excessive levels of growth hormones can increase cancer incidence, it is generally considered unwise to boost growth hormone levels beyond normal, pre-"dropoff" levels.

This is one of the major underlying risks of consuming milk - of any sort (mammalian milk, at least). Were one to consume human milk as an adult (below the age of 35 or so, anyway...) it could boost body growth hormone to undesireable (possibly dangerous) levels. Above 35 or 40, it could restore growth hormone concentrations to appropriate levels if carefully titrated......that is, as long as human milk does not contain growth hormones - geared to the needs of infants - which are qualitatively different from adult growth hormones. If so, it would also be undesireable for adult humans to consume human milk.

Moving right along here.......cow milk? for humans? Well humans are obviously not dropping in the streets - milky mustaches giving away the reason for their untimely demise - but I would be very suspicious of cow milk on the basis that: adult humans are 1) not infants needing to grow extremely rapidly and 2) humans are not cows. There are substantial biological differences between the species. Cows are ruminants, for example. On this basis, I'm suspicious of drinking a hormone rich substance designed, specifically, to make calves grow really fast: I'm not a cow, and I don't need to treble my body weight in the next year or two.

As far as artificial bovine growth hormones......Blech!

I don't obsess about this stuff - I do drink milk in my coffee. It's bought at the local corner store, and is artificial BGH free.

moo! moo moo moo! moo moo moo! moo moomoo! moo moo
posted by troutfishing at 10:47 AM on March 2, 2003


This is all much a-moo about nothing.

People (in this neck of the world) are living longer than ever. We're obviously doing something right. If milk were truly The Evil Drink that's being claimed, we'd see a lot more evidence of its ill effects.

That said, I can't stand the taste of milk. I put yogurt on my cereal and enjoy a good, stinky cheese; and I'll put milk in my coffee only because I don't want the fat from cream; and there's nothing better than whipped cream on pumpkin pie -- but on the whole, milk all by itself is disgusting.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:59 AM on March 2, 2003


dabitch
"No other species can survive and thrive on milk of a different species, unaltered"


I've occasionally wondered why evolution, if it can produce the cuckoo, hasn't produced "milk vampires" that sneak into another animal's litter and opportunistically suckle. Or has it?
posted by raygirvan at 11:01 AM on March 2, 2003


Hitoshi lieks milk. Others might call him a a milk sucker.
posted by madamjujujive at 11:20 AM on March 2, 2003


One doctor with an agenda and a commercial website alone hardly qualify as reliable sources.

But nutritional recommendations created by dairy industry executives do? Come on, if you're going to be skeptical, do it right. Yes, there are plenty of poorly made anti-milk arguments, but there are good ones as well, with far more serious science than that underlying the moronic pro-dairy hype we're all bombarded with. Dr. Mercola's site (the "reasons to avoid it" link above) links to a number of journal articles that raise serious questions about the hormones injected into cows. Any scientist has to acknowledge things like this:

Shiv Chopra is one of five government scientists at Canada's Health Protection Branch who found evidence that FDA had seriously overlooked - or, he claims, possibly even suppressed - studies showing adverse reactions in rats.

"Although the paper published in Science gave the product a clean bill of health," says Chopra, "the US FDA ignored the harder information, a 90-day study of rats showing that the hormone did indeed get absorbed into their bloodstreams, and that it produced antibodies and lesions."

Chopra, who spoke to MSNBC shortly after a gag order was lifted regarding his speaking to the press, said, "I'm afraid to say that despite all that is known about the adverse reactions that cows have to the drug, and ample evidence of human health concerns as well, that the US government took an expedient route to approval with this drug."


The kneejerk response to any discussion that (gasp) dares to question the value of drinking milk is always good for a laugh. Think it has anything to do with the milk industry's constant bombardment of the population with unscientific feelgood spin? Or the well-documented revolving door between the FDA and the food industry? Gosh, I dunno...
posted by mediareport at 11:34 AM on March 2, 2003


My ancestors have been consuming milk products for a long time, I think I will continue the tradition. Found this story on the great Anthropology in the News site - not updated as often as I would like but a source for many interesting articles.
posted by gudrun at 11:39 AM on March 2, 2003


And just in case folks weren't aware exactly how the FDA/industry revolving door works, check the story of Michael Taylor, an FDA attorney-turned Monsanto attorney-turned FDA deputy commissioner-turned Monsanto VP:

"Michael Taylor, for many years, was an attorney with the FDA. At one point, he was the main legal advisor to the commissioner. He knew the FDA's food laws very, very well.

"He went through the revolving door. He went into private practice for a major Washington, D.C., law firm that was establishing a food regulatory division. He became the head attorney there, and Monsanto was one of his big clients. Mr. Taylor helped Monsanto design a no-regulation policy. When it became clear the FDA scientists were not just going to jump on the bandwagon, the FDA did something very interesting: It created a new position — deputy commissioner for policy. One of the key responsibilities was to be in charge of the policy statement on GE foods. Michael Taylor got appointed to that post.

"The final policy decision he drafted has no statements from FDA scientists about new hazards of GE. He gave Monsanto everything they wanted — their foods are presumed safe, and they don't have to do any testing, and they don't have to label. Monsanto rewarded Taylor by hiring him as vice president of public policy. Now *that* is a well-oiled revolving door."

Oh, but it's those crazy anti-food industry radicals who don't have science on their side. Riiiight...
posted by mediareport at 11:39 AM on March 2, 2003


Milk is heavily marketed just like any other product - but the National Dairy Council somehow ended up supplying all our nutritional materials to our schools, leading most people to believe that "milk does a body good".

I'd be happy if people just stopped being brainwashed by the National Dairy Council and started gathering the facts for themselves. If you drink milk after that, fine, but do a bit of research, rather than just spouting what you "believe".

And here's a hard fact for you - the U.S. has one of the highest levels of per capita dairy consumption - and also one of the highest rates of osteoperosis. Why is this?
posted by fishbrando at 11:50 AM on March 2, 2003


Although, most vegetarians I know (and there are a lot in this area) never seem to look very healthy, except for the few that regularly take many vitamin supplements...

Espoo2, it is ironic that you demand that sources be cited, and then turn around and say vague "facts" like this. I know many very healthy vegetarians, some of whom run marathons. And BTW, Carl Lewis was a vegan when he won his 4 gold medals.
posted by fishbrando at 11:55 AM on March 2, 2003


BTW, Carl Lewis was a vegan when he won his 4 gold medals.

So much for anecdotal evidence. What do clogged arteries and colon cancer look like from the outside, anyway?
posted by mediareport at 12:17 PM on March 2, 2003


i always thought the "No other species in the world continues to drink mammilian milk after the age of weaning. No other species can survive and thrive on milk of a different species, unaltered." was a strange argument. is it even factual?

Both cats and dogs drink milk. Cats seem to like it more.
posted by nyxxxx at 2:09 PM on March 2, 2003


Yah, well, they also both lick their asses, don't they?
posted by five fresh fish at 2:14 PM on March 2, 2003


Actually, cats are not supposed to drink milk from the store after about 8 weeks. Cats are lactose intolerant and will more likely than not vomit from it after that time.
You can buy a milk-substitute for cats from any pet store.
posted by grum@work at 2:54 PM on March 2, 2003


Do you know why you shouldn't drink milk? Because it tastes nasty.

Unless it's chocolate milk or you have it with cereal.

Otherwise, yuck.
posted by owillis at 2:58 PM on March 2, 2003


Espoo2, it is ironic that you demand that sources be cited, and then turn around and say vague "facts" like this.

Fishbrando, where again were the facts I was presenting? I must have missed that. Oh, I see. You were talking about the opinions and observations. Try again. Would it make you feel better if I posted pictures of the people in question?
posted by Espoo2 at 6:09 PM on March 2, 2003


I used to have lots of alergies when I was younger. Then I started drinking more milk and they went away. True story.
posted by y6y6y6 at 6:14 PM on March 2, 2003


And here's a hard fact for you - the U.S. has one of the highest levels of per capita dairy consumption - and also one of the highest rates of osteoperosis. Why is this?

Correlation, I'd like you to meet a friend of mine Causation.
Causation, this is Correlation.
Now, for the rest of the party I want you to stay on opposite sides of the room, and not have anything to do with each other. Got that?
posted by spazzm at 6:25 PM on March 2, 2003


It's suggestive evidence, spazzm; it begs for further investigation - particularly since the dairy industry is the one claiming that drinking milk can help fight osteoporosis. Sheesh. Any scientist worth her salt would find that "correlation" a promising avenue to explore. If you click through the links at the third site in the original post, you'll see that's exactly what some scientists are doing.

Do you have a response to Shiv Chopra's claims about the FDA ignoring clear evidence that suggests a problem deeper than mere "correlation"? If so, we're all waiting to see it.
posted by mediareport at 9:19 PM on March 2, 2003


The FDA is full of tripe. If I were to believe any of the BS coming from them, I'd also have to believe that Second Hand Smoke will kill me.

Even after the *law* told them they were full of crap, the FDA refuses to give up on that.

How can you trust anything from an organization that manipulates its very own numbers, virtually lies outright, and covers up evidence to the contrary (technically, going by their numbers, Second Hand Smoking will improve an infants health).

Just like the industry that promotes its own ideals through junk science, the FDA mirrors society's opinions through junk science.

(Yes, I'm sore. I was hoodwinked into believing the SHS garbage myself, and hell will freeze over before I listen to them again).

So yes, I do have clear evidence that the FDA releases fraudulent, ignorant, bogus claims.

Here's a good quote about the FDA, from someone important:

Judge Osteen determined that the EPA had "cherry picked" its data and had grossly manipulated "scientific procedure and scientific norms" in order to rationalize the agency's own preconceived conclusion that passive smoking caused 3,000 lung cancer deaths a year.

Yeah, smoking and milk are different. But the studies are done by the same tainted institution. So phooey on anything I hear from them for a long time...
posted by shepd at 12:48 AM on March 3, 2003


mediareport:
Chill, man.
All I did was point out that correlation != causation.

Why are people taking this so seriously? If you don't want to drink milk, fine - don't drink milk. I'm not going to force you.
But don't expect me to stop drinking milk just because you think I should.

Now, I'm going to have a nice, chilled glass of cow-beer. Cheers!
posted by spazzm at 1:53 AM on March 3, 2003


When I was a kid, I used to get these horrible headaches from just running around and being young. The doctor suggested that I was allergic to milk. Fiddlesticks! I kicked him in the crotch and slit his throat, all in one fluid motion... like a ninja basically. Been drinkin' milk ever since.
posted by Witty at 3:30 AM on March 3, 2003


Or is it 'cow-lager'? Moo-juice?
posted by spazzm at 4:11 AM on March 3, 2003


Although, most vegetarians I know (and there are a lot in this area) never seem to look very healthy, except for the few that regularly take many vitamin supplements...
That's because vegans are people too, and like most other people they don't always eat as well as they should.

I suffered since childhood with asthma, allergies, and stomach problems. As an adult I also developed an aggressive form of rheumatoid arthritis. At the prompting of a naturopath I eliminated all animal products from my diet Within 6 weeks my symptoms had decreased to negligible levels. It's been almost 2 years now, and I am fine as long as I don't eat animal products (ESPECIALLY dairy). If I do I feel the effects in my joints for weeks, even if I am not aware that I have eaten something I shouldn't. Anecdotal? Sure, but good enough for me.

I'm not saying EVERYONE shouldn't be eating dairy, but if you have persistent health problems try eliminating it for 6 weeks and see what happens.
posted by evilcupcakes at 7:36 AM on March 3, 2003


I have not noticed any health improvements (other than the lack of intensly painful gastrointestinal problems directly associated with its ingestion)but I am extremely lactose intolerant and am not able to tolerate more than a couple of ounces milk. I have not eaten ice cream in over 18 yrs. The sad part is that I have always LOVED milk. I buy large quantities of Lactaid tablets and I can drink Lataid Milk (takes some getting used to) but I have worried for a long time about the possibility of getting osteo (since I am also thin which puts me at greater risk as well). This thread has restored some hope as I had never realized there are fewer cases of it in cultures that eat little to no dairy products. Certainly some indepedent group needs to look into this. Very very interesting point and one that makes me even more suspicious of the motives of the FDA.
posted by SweetIceT at 9:17 AM on March 3, 2003


SweetIceT, you may already be aware of this, but enriched soy milk has as much calcium as cow's milk. If you're gagging down Lactaid, you might as well be gagging down a milk that's lactose-, cholesterol- and cruelty-free. When I started drinking soy milk I had to make an effort because while it didn't taste bad, it didn't taste right - defined as tasting "like milk." Now, a few years later, I'm used to it and it tastes fine.

As the progenitor of the regrettable thread ROU_Xenophobe already pointed us back to above, I won't retread all the (very basic) arguments against consumption of cow's milk. But I'm really interested by the number of admissions on this thread that cow's milk doesn't actually taste good - it's something we become accustomed to. We seem to forget having to be cajoled to drink our milk as kids, or the fact that very few of us (any of them here?) desire to drink milk straight, instead of washing down something that is tasty, like cookies (unless the milk has been altered to make it tasty - e.g. chocolate milk, which has more sugar in it than most soda pop). You know that Christmas song "This is That Time of the Year"? one of the lines showing how out-of-the-ordinary things are is that "Junior drinks all of his milk." In other words, 50 years ago, it was already a cliche that kids don't want to drink milk and have to be pressured into adopting the habit.

The flip side is that once we get used to it, we convince ourselves that our lives would be poorer without it, and imagine we can't get used to the taste of something else. We can. And, dare I say it, should.
posted by soyjoy at 11:27 AM on March 3, 2003


Kids don't want to eat vegetables either... so what, did I just get used to vegetables as I grew up? I like milk. I don't drink it often, because I don't consider it a good thirst quencher -- but the occasional glass of milk is a good thing.

Besides, being European born, I come from a long, long history of dairy consumption. Stomaches get used to things. Mine is used to it. Curry and other spicy foods make some people sick; milk makes other people sick. To generalize and say this is bad for everyone is stupid.
posted by mkn at 12:16 PM on March 3, 2003


This is bad for everyone.

But it's worse for the vast majority of the world who aren't descended from Europeans. And so far they're unable to get soy milk at their publicly funded school lunch.

Stomaches get used to things

This is such a beautiful Freudian slip that I'm not gonna touch it.
posted by soyjoy at 1:55 PM on March 3, 2003


i can't believe i took the time to read this whole conversation. i want my five minutes back.
posted by katy_ at 4:07 PM on March 3, 2003


But it's worse for the vast majority of the world who aren't descended from Europeans.

But being descended from Europeans gives me the mutant superpower of LACTOSE DIGESTION!!!, so why shouldn't I use it? If others want the same mutant superpower, I'd be happy to contribute towards a plan to bring it to them.

What Katy said.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:17 PM on March 3, 2003


i can't believe i took the time to read this whole conversation. i want my five minutes back.

Ahh.. the "I'm so much better than this thread, I have to let everyone know" comment.

[HAL] This thread can serve no further useful purpose. Goodbye, Dave. [/HAL]

What Katy said.

Credibility? Gone.... and take katy_ with ya.
posted by Witty at 6:37 PM on March 3, 2003


it's not that i'm better than this thread. i just can't believe people are arguing about this. defending milk, damning milk. i love milk, i'll never give it up. BUT WHO CARES!?!
posted by katy_ at 8:28 PM on March 3, 2003


Credibility, schmedibility. What can I say? soyjoy pushed my buttons.

What Katy said the second time.

I think we should have a very long-winded argument about whether or not an Imperial Star Destroyer could take out the Enterprise-D*. Or maybe this: if Frodo were getting it on with Gollum, who would be pitching and who would be catching... yessss.... that'sssss it, trixey hobbitses.... Smeagol likesssss it rough...

*(the answer is that a li'l Rapid Offensive Unit could eat them both... if they hadn't taken my gridfire away... lousy peaceniks)
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:42 PM on March 3, 2003


Witty: It was a horrible thread. I could hardly believe what I was reading.
posted by raysmj at 11:38 PM on March 3, 2003


BUT WHO CARES!?!

Well, we've certainly learned that you and ROU don't.
posted by Witty at 2:24 AM on March 4, 2003


It certainly seems to be some people's hobby-horse.

Maybe next somebody will post an FPP: "Asparagus makes your pee smell funny and looks disturbingly like a penis. For the love of God, stop eating asparagus so I can take this clothespin off my nose, you incontinent twits!"

Or a nice long "Brussels sprouts taste yucky! Blecch!" thread.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:45 AM on March 4, 2003


I'm not better than this thread, but I'm better than Witty.
posted by websavvy at 7:23 AM on March 4, 2003


It's hilarious to see all the posts fervently making the point that the poster doesn't care about this. Gee, then why'd you bother to click in here in the first place?

Folks, I have no idea why jayantk put together this FPP - there doesn't seem to be anything particularly new or timely in it - but the overblown and frequently fraudulent promotion of dairy as a food "everybody" needs is a major cultural story, and will continue to be as more and more people get the facts. You can stick your fingers in your ears and hum if you don't like hearing about this, but does it really help your case to keep chronicling your finger-sticking and humming here?
posted by soyjoy at 10:36 AM on March 4, 2003


Th' wife decided to drop dairy recently, and like a lot of dietary things in our household I went along for the ride. I miss cheese a bit, but I've discovered that I actually prefer soy milk. Go figure.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 10:52 AM on March 4, 2003


soyjoy: I think reading the thread was akin to rubbernecking, something that makes you feel vaguely ashamed for doing later. I'm sorry, by the way, but you're coming off as an insufferable, humorless didact.
posted by raysmj at 12:25 PM on March 4, 2003


I dunno, ray, I'm not ashamed, vaguely or otherwise. Sounds like there are some issues goin' on there. And how I come off to you is pretty low on my list of concerns, but thanks for the tip.
posted by soyjoy at 7:22 AM on March 5, 2003


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