This shit be wack!

March 11, 2003 11:45 PM

WWTBBD? Ah, the Beastie Boys; their eloquence re: war is boundless, as evidenced in the lyrics to this funky fresh jam they just unleashed (for free download in MP3 – that’s how important it is to them to get the message across!) on an undeserving public. Seriously, if you feel strongly anti war, and you’re a hip hop artist, those two things can (and should) remain separate. I mean, when Ben and Jerry protested the war, they just published an article protesting it, they didn’t make interpretive dairy based dessert products about it.
From BoingBoing
posted by jonson (98 comments total)

Ben & Jerry's already has interpretive anti-war dairy-based dessert products. They have One Sweet Whirld, and Peace Pops!

Of course, it's a MOOt point, since Ben and Jerry sold Ben & Jerry's a few years ago.
posted by kfury at 11:53 PM on March 11, 2003

Damn you and your ice creamy cold logic, kfury! You've won this round, but the war is far from over!!!

MOOt point
posted by jonson at 11:54 PM on March 11, 2003

Hyuk, hyuk. It's fun to make fun of celebrities and pretend like they don't know enough about war. Let's laugh at Barbara Streisand and Janeane Garofalo, too. So funn-ee. Surely they do not have access to the intelligence possessed by Donald Rumsfeld.

Adam "MCA" Yauch spoke out against Muslim bigotry about 3 years ago at the MTV video awards, when nobody else was doing so.

If you think hip-hop isn't supposed to be political, you need to put down your Moby-stocked iPod and give a listen to "Fear of a Black Planet."
posted by inksyndicate at 12:10 AM on March 12, 2003

It is, actually, fun (and easy) to make fun of celebrities, just as fun (and easy) as it is to generalize about the mp3 players your fellow Mefites may or may not own. But that's not the point. I've no qualms with celebrities (or people of any profession, for that matter) expressing their opinions regarding the war, which I'm personally against. But did you read these lyrics? Hip Hop may or may not be an effective medium for political discourse; the evidence of this track would lead me to believe not. In fact, this song is just embarassing; It makes me feel ashamed to be on the same idealogical side as the people who wrote it.
posted by jonson at 12:23 AM on March 12, 2003

Seriously, if you feel strongly anti war, and you're a hip hop artist, those two things can (and should) remain separate.

Seriously, if you're an artist whose medium is speech, and you feel strongly about something, you can (and should) express your opinion in that very same medium.

It's hip-hop. You're supposed to express your thoughts/feelings about whatever's on your mind.
How dare they be concerned about something besides bitches and bling-bling.
posted by Uncle Ira at 12:27 AM on March 12, 2003

Oooh more news from the parallel universe, where Ben and Jerry are stridently apolitical in their ice cream manufacture, and art and politics should never mix, and Bush has reluctantly and heroically taken on the mantle of liberator of the Iraqi people. How's evil Spock? Still got the goatee?

Meanwhile, on Planet Earth, this song is great. Although I wonder about their judgment in referencing Zoolander, a movie which probably no one has seen.
posted by condour75 at 12:31 AM on March 12, 2003

"Oh, Justice will be served and the battle will rage.
This big dog will fight when you rattle his cage
You'll be sorry that you messed with the US of A
'Cuz we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way."
If you want embarassment and shame, lap this up. Sadly, those who embrace a song like this probably have no concept of either.

"We need health care more than going to war"
I couldn't agree with this more.

Don't believe the hype, jonson.
posted by trondant at 12:32 AM on March 12, 2003

It is the duty of every citizen according to his best capacities to give validity to his convictions in political affairs.
- Albert Einstein

I don't think Albert had BEAT in mind, but... I do think this song will be heard by a lot of people. Has anyone else noticed the route the Beastie Boys have taken? They've been a punk band, party rappers, devout Buddhists, always social commentators and now political rappers. "Brass Monkey" to "In a World Gone Mad."
posted by letitrain at 12:39 AM on March 12, 2003

How can you judge the effectiveness of hip-hop as a form of political discourse on the basis of one song? Surely groups such as Public Enemy succeeded in making music with a message? I can understand if the music or lyrics didn't work for you, but I don't see any larger conclusions that can be drawn.
posted by bathtime at 12:42 AM on March 12, 2003

In the late 60's I've heard that they sometimes wrote songs about war... Naw, the baby-boomers must have been on acid or something... that would be fucking crazy.
posted by password at 12:48 AM on March 12, 2003

Let's face it, it's hiphop. You're listening for the music.

The lyrics didn't look too cringingly bad to me with a quick glance, but I haven't listened to the track yet. Give me an artist with something to say any day over yet another vapid love song.
posted by salmacis at 12:58 AM on March 12, 2003

Beat niche counterpoint to pedigreed screed.
Credentials sold separately.
posted by Opus Dark at 1:11 AM on March 12, 2003

I'm a BBoys fan, and am anti-war...but I think the song sucks nonetheless.

Definately not the caliber of rap and music I expect from this band.
posted by wolfgangnorton at 1:38 AM on March 12, 2003

"I'd like to have a say on the income tax
Don't wanna help build bombs and that's the facts
No money for health care, so what's the catch?
The man got you locked with no keys to the latch"
Alive
posted by X-00 at 1:48 AM on March 12, 2003

condour - zoolander is the best movie ever made.
posted by mhjb at 1:57 AM on March 12, 2003

Sorry Beasties, that song could do with some polish, I don't think they'll be singing that one in 30 years time.
Still, props for quoting A Tribe Called Quest 'Check the Rhime':
'Industry rule number four thousand and eighty,
record company people are shady.
So kids watch your back 'cause I think they smoke crack,
I don't doubt it. Look at how they act.
Off to better things like a hip-hop forum.'
posted by asok at 3:14 AM on March 12, 2003

Don't forget that the Beastie Boys have no qualms about supporting any seditious leftist cause, even playing money-grub-fests for the defense of a convicted cop-killer and felon ("free mumia"), in lockstep with the World Workers Party and International A.N.S.W.E.R., otherwise known as Maoist, Stalinist anti-American communist revolutionary advocate organizations, and admiring supporters of Kim Jong-Il's regime in North Korea.

So much for "peace".
posted by hama7 at 3:34 AM on March 12, 2003

And I'm sure Country Joe and the Fish were pinko commie's, right hama7?
posted by iamck at 3:54 AM on March 12, 2003

I don't know, did they associate themselves with advocates of communist revolution and supporters of totalitarian regimes?
posted by hama7 at 4:40 AM on March 12, 2003

So much for "peace".

Lockstep = Godwin's law?
posted by srboisvert at 4:40 AM on March 12, 2003

Don't forget that the Beastie Boys have no qualms about supporting any seditious leftist cause

and their music is also part of a conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids

I love this man
posted by matteo at 4:46 AM on March 12, 2003

As much as I like the Beastie Boys, this song sucks. Not only is the content crap, but the engineering lacks a lot.. its all flat sounding. feh.

i love the b-boys, but a five year hiatus for this shit makes realize how important to me Paul's boutique was. Still the best damn album

eggman!
posted by shadow45 at 5:11 AM on March 12, 2003

Funny thing is, hama7, a lot of people (unlike yourself) don't see support for "leftist" causes as a BAD thing. They see it as a GOOD thing. See the difference? Every comment you make, you seem to use words like "leftist" and "socialist" as if these beliefs were inherently evil. It makes your comments so predictable and boring. We get the point already, you hate anyone who's to the left of Donny Rumsfeld.

Having said that, the song is a bit of a dissapointment.
posted by Jimbob at 5:19 AM on March 12, 2003

Thanks for the link to the Mumia Abu-Jamal website hama7, hardly suprising though, as the Beastie Boys have a history of supporting Amnesty International. Anyone with a respect for truth and openness in legal proceedings would find the Abu-Jamal case concerning.
'Although police interviewed over 80 people at the scene, the only witnesses they presented gave highly questionable and contradictory testimony. Two had serious charges pending against them, which were dropped after they testified. None of the many witnesses who would have testified that they had seen someone fleeing from the scene were called. Two of the prosecution witnesses have since come forward to reveal police coercion in their testimony. One of those who saw a man running from the scene, Veronica Jones, explained her original false testimony: "They told me I'd have to do 10 years away from my children if I said what I saw. I couldn't leave my babies!" Pamela Jenkins testified that her boyfriend, police officer Thomas Ryan, offered her money to testify against Mumia and to identify him as the shooter, even though she had not been at the scene.'
posted by asok at 5:29 AM on March 12, 2003

The Beastie Boys have certainly been recording strong political statements since 1994's Ill Communication ("The Update", "Bodhisattva Vow"), and you can even go back to 1992's Check Your Head ("Something's Got to Give", "Stand Together"). I mean, whether or not you like the song, it's not like you shouldn't have expected a message like this from them. Plus, I think a lot of those lyrics are pretty funny, especially the one about waffles. Since when are humor and seriousness mutually exclusive?

And this is one of the most asinine things I've read on MetaFilter ever: "Seriously, if you feel strongly anti war, and you're a hip hop artist, those two things can (and should) remain separate." Seriously, if you feel strongly that hip hop artists should not discuss politics, you can (and should) look for a fist to put your face in.
posted by elvissinatra at 5:30 AM on March 12, 2003

We ain’t waffles we ain’t havin’ it

That certainly sums up my political stance nicely.
posted by jennyb at 5:57 AM on March 12, 2003

you gotta peacefully protest for your right to party.
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:59 AM on March 12, 2003

Whilst we are troll baiting;
As Jimbob says - 'you seem to use words like "leftist" and "socialist" as if these beliefs were inherently evil.'
From the LAWeekly article linked to:
'At the same time, WWP activists, hiding their true colors, gain a forum where thousands of people listen to their exhortations. Is this a good deal — or a dangerous one?'
This is reminicent of the US reaction to communism globally; the very idea of communism is so dangerous that people cannot be exposed to any form of socialism. Which would lead one to deduce that communism is perceived by *they* to be so intoxicating a concept for the workers of the world that they will unite if given any chance.
posted by asok at 6:02 AM on March 12, 2003

Ohio it's not.
posted by alms at 6:12 AM on March 12, 2003

Say ooh ah what’s the White House doin’?
Oh no! Say, what in tarnation have they got brewing??!!!!???!!

Tarnation? MC Yosemite Sam?
posted by thatweirdguy2 at 6:14 AM on March 12, 2003

Pop music played a crucial role in the national debate over the Vietnam War... A comparable song about George W. Bush's rush to war in Iraq would have no chance at all today. There are plenty of angry people, many with prime music-buying demographics. But independent radio stations that once would have played edgy, political music have been gobbled up by corporations that control hundreds of stations and have no wish to rock the boat. The Trouble With Corporate Radio: The Day the Protest Music Died.
posted by alms at 6:19 AM on March 12, 2003

hama7: "Maoist, Stalinist anti-American communist revolutionary advocate organizations"

You say that like it's a bad thing.
posted by signal at 6:27 AM on March 12, 2003

the lesson learned here: don't let an adopted message overrun your talent. sure, they might mean every word, but the lyrics are uninspired and the beats are tired. perhaps they felt rushed because of the march 17 deadline, but i expect so much better from the beasties.

but the track's really bad, it makes me sad... not bad meaning good, but bad meaning bad.
posted by grabbingsand at 6:38 AM on March 12, 2003

You want a horrible anti-war song? Check out Paula Cole.
posted by turaho at 6:47 AM on March 12, 2003

it seems like no protest is good enough for the pro-war crowd.

Don't forget that the Beastie Boys have no qualms about supporting any seditious leftist cause,

remember that time someone said you were the very definition of knee jerk?
posted by mcsweetie at 6:53 AM on March 12, 2003

Peace Studies 101, with the Beastie Boys

Violence, when you're fighting for your so-called "right" to party = good.
Violence, when you're fighting for oil, revenge and reelection = bad.
In no way whatsoever does the underlying consumerist, selfish attitude from the first necessitate the violence which erupts in the second.
posted by eustacescrubb at 6:55 AM on March 12, 2003

It's hard to grasp the concept, I know, but sometimes an artist, musician, writer, or hip hop group will grow, change, and mature, socially and artistically, from their very first release to their latest.
posted by jennyb at 7:02 AM on March 12, 2003

eustacescrubb - in case you didn't notice, the Beastie Boys have kind of grown up in the last few decades. The fact that they can rise above the downward spiral that is hip-hop and become better people - make beautiful music, even without lyrics as interludes on their albums.. man, they're f'ing musical geniuses in my eyes. This song may not back that up, but grab any album they've put out and you'll find some really well engineered beats and rhythms, not to mention thought-provoking geopolitical inspired lyrics. We have gotten to see them mature and put childish things to past over the years.

The B-Boys are proof that even whitey can make good hip-hop.

BEASTIE = Boys Entering Anarchistic States Towards Internal Excellence

Interesting...
posted by shadow45 at 7:08 AM on March 12, 2003

Violence, when you're fighting for your so-called "right" to party = good.

More like this, if you follow the Beasties...

Violence, when you're 20, drunk off your ass and trying to be provocative on your first major label album = good

Violence, when you've sobered up, grown up and seen that responsibilty matters = bad
posted by neuroshred at 7:14 AM on March 12, 2003

I guess I didn't think about the fact that Adam Yauch underwent a spiritual conversion after recording Licensed to Ill...
posted by eustacescrubb at 7:29 AM on March 12, 2003

Okay, for the record, AGAIN, I'm not against hip hop artists (or even house painters) speaking their mind on politics, and yes, I suppose a rap song against the war could feasibly be written that wouldn't weaken the very legitimate reasons we shouldn't go to war, and yes, I do own and enjoy PE's Nation of Millions, but I remain firmly convinced, despite elvissinatra's request that I get punched in the face, THESE lyrics are ridiculous, childish and do nothing more than reinforce the stereotype that the writers are laughable incompetents with nothing to say. I'm not against their political stance, I'm against the lyrics of this absurdly stupid song. There's nothing here that couldn't have been better said in a PSA or a posting on their website. I think we're all in a agreeance here.
posted by jonson at 7:47 AM on March 12, 2003

isn't communism pretty much like anarchism (from a theoretical viewpoint)? iirc, soviet russia was socialist (even if they claimed to be communist - the stalinist approach was communism through socialism while trotskyists wanted to go there directly).
i may be confused here - woudl appreciate correction...
posted by andrew cooke at 7:47 AM on March 12, 2003

Apparently, my son shares a birthday with Yauch's kid. Wierd.
posted by adampsyche at 7:48 AM on March 12, 2003

On May 31, 1998 he married Dechen Wangdu in a building on Bleecker St., Greenwich Village, NYC. His daughter, Tenzin, was recently born on September 30, 1998

hmmm......
posted by folktrash at 7:49 AM on March 12, 2003

Violence, when you're 20, drunk off your ass and trying to be provocative on your first major label album = good

Violence, when you've sobered up, grown up and seen that responsibilty matters = bad

First of all, maybe a better way of putting it would be,

Violence, metaphorical= good(sometimes)

Violence, literal= bad(most of the time)

Also, when is this sobering up/growing up thing supposed to happen? I don't want it sneaking up on me.
posted by jonmc at 8:09 AM on March 12, 2003

Speaking of political hip-hop, I've been listening to Sage Francis's "Makeshift Patriot" over and over again. A transcription of the lyrics is here. Check out the second verse.
posted by subgenius at 8:16 AM on March 12, 2003

it seems like no protest is good enough for the pro-war crowd.

It's probably a lot to ask, but try reading the comments in this thread and take note that:

A) Most say the song is lame, shallow and just sucks
B) Most of these folks are vocal anti-war posters here at MeFi

I actually think that, mercifully, this is one thing the entire political spectrum can agree on. The song is just profoundly lame.

Check Yourself.
posted by dhoyt at 8:32 AM on March 12, 2003

damn subgenius, i was just about to post that.

seeing as to how you've got the lyrics covered, here's the mp3 off of his site if anyone is intrested:

"dont waive your rights with your flags."
posted by joedan at 8:32 AM on March 12, 2003

It's entertaining to see how many think the song "sucks" when only a couple, as far as I can see, have actually heard it. Hip-hop song lyrics always look silly on the page, and even as those go, this song has some good ones. I'll reserve judgment till I hear it.

That said, I'm gonna point you to more hip-hop anti-war song lyrics that will doubtless fail to convey what an excellent song this is. Rise Robots Rise is my favorite (defunct) band, and they did this song right after Gulf War #1. As with their musical style, the content just gets more relevant as time goes by.
posted by soyjoy at 8:34 AM on March 12, 2003

mmm... if I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone confuse communism, socialism, and anarchism...

Communism is an economic system under which everyone lives from a "common purse." In small communes, the common purse will be free to all; you put in your earnings and take out what you need. The economic equivalent of the commons, maybe. (What developed in Russia was called communism, but was a bit more like fascism. A small segment of the community had complete control of the purse, and goods were (in theory) distributed according to people's needs. The difference is that Russia ended up being like one giant business, with a CEO and managers who decided the worker's wages.) It is important to note that communism is an economic system.

Socialism has a couple of different meanings. Many people use the word to talk about an economic system somewhere between (Soviet-style) communism and capitalism, where certain businesses are government-run. I'm not such a big fan of this usage, as it usually comes with a poor idea of what communism is, and the other definition for socialism is something much closer to my heart.

Socialism also refers to a non-heirarchical system of society, in which all memebers are truly equals and have no authority to force other members of the society to do anything. In every case I've seen, this leads directly to an opposition with capitalism, as the accumulation of money gives one power over those with less. However, socialism in this sense does not neccesarily have an economic system tied to it. Socialism breaks off into two main branches: Statist and Anarchist socialism. Statist socialism is what Marx was all about.

I hope that it is clear that, from this viewpoint, Soviet Russia wasn't very socialistic at all, what with those giant labor prisons in Siberia, secret police, military rule of sattelite countries, etc.

Anarchism is socialism without central government or economic systems. Everything is done on a consensual, person-to-person basis. It is a very strange beast, with a hundred different strains, most of the differences being in how the thing works on a day-to-day basis. On the one hand, 95% of crime or more is eliminated when you eliminate private property and stop presuming to think for your fellow citizens. But how to deal with those last few problems is an interesting problem... It should be noted that there have been no truly anarchistic governments, though people sometimes look to certain Native American tribes as close approximations.

Ok, that was really long, and probably off-topic. Blame andrew for letting the genie out of the bottle. Hopefully, this shows that, at their idealistic core, these ideas aren't as inherently evil as some people around here would have us believe.
posted by kaibutsu at 8:37 AM on March 12, 2003 [2 favorites]

thanks kaibutsu. i don't think ive ever had that explained to me quite that well.
posted by joedan at 8:42 AM on March 12, 2003

I look forward to an update of your user page very soon, jonson.
posted by iconomy at 8:46 AM on March 12, 2003

Ah, but Communism comes from a ethical view point, Utilitarianism...I wish I could remember the guy's name who came up with it, but it was later on that another dude (Mill, I think) made it moreso into the political idea we have now. Originally, Utilitarianism was supposed to be a way to live because we ought to and it was the only moral thing to do (but as i mentioned already, Mill turned it more into a political viewpoint versus a moral viewpoint).
posted by jmd82 at 8:51 AM on March 12, 2003

another protest song.
posted by VulcanMike at 8:55 AM on March 12, 2003

thanks kaibutsu.
posted by andrew cooke at 8:56 AM on March 12, 2003

good post, kaibutsu. If only you'd taught AP European History in 1993..
posted by Vidiot at 8:57 AM on March 12, 2003

How dare they mix music and politics?

Perhaps a new anti-war song will get better attention if it's performed by someone more popular with the working class.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:08 AM on March 12, 2003

(Admittedly, I don't know a great deal about the history of Communism, except for as it relates to various points in socialist history... I've always thought it to be kind of a dead end: I believe we shouldn't use an economic system as an approach to life, since the objective is to live well, rather than to collect stuff. Of course, some rules are inevitably needed to dictate the flow of stuff, but this is inconsequential compared to the real goal.)
posted by kaibutsu at 9:09 AM on March 12, 2003

Excellent history of anarchism here
posted by matteo at 9:15 AM on March 12, 2003

(available on Amazon.co.uk, the American edition is apparently out of print)
posted by matteo at 9:17 AM on March 12, 2003

I've noticed repeatedly that pro-war types, when confronted with substantive arguments against the war, retreat to making fun of anti-war celebrities. This has happened numerous times in online discussions I've participated in.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:24 AM on March 12, 2003

The beat is not the best and the production is weak, but with a little tweaking this could be a good song. The lyrics are funny and capture what a lot of people, especially younger people, are feeling.

I agree with those who say this is not their best work, it isn't. But I disagree with those who say it sucks. It's a very decent effort and with some studio time could be made even better. And who doesn't love the image of Bush and Saddam kickin' it with the cocaine and courvasier?
posted by cell divide at 9:26 AM on March 12, 2003

Ohio it's not.

Speaking of which, here's Neil Young speaking at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony the other night:

"We're having a good time tonight, but we're gonna kill a lot of people next week. Let's not forget about that. I didn't want to ruin this, but it's too real to not mention it. And music used to be about this, and it still is about this. This is a human thing, and these are human beings over there. And we're making a huge mistake. I feel like I'm in a giant, gas-guzzling SUV and the driver's drunk as a fuckin' skunk."
posted by gompa at 9:31 AM on March 12, 2003

I've noticed repeatedly that pro-war types, when confronted with substantive arguments against the war, retreat to making fun of anti-war celebrities.

I'm anti-war (more or less) and I'll still make fun of the anti-war celebrities. That's what celebrities are for. What'd really irking folks, I think, is someone thinking that somehow Bush and Powell are gonna turn on the TV and go "We can't wage war, Martin Sheen and Susan Sarandon don't want us too! Better call the whole thing off."

So, what does this all amount to then? Another oppurtunity for these celebrities to show you what swell folk they are." Activitism? More like narcissism.

Yeah, yeah I know these people are entitled to voice their opinions. So's my bartender and my landlady. But, they don't feel obliged to bombard me with their opinions from every TV screen and magazine cover.
posted by jonmc at 9:36 AM on March 12, 2003

hama7-- you are a genius, man. do you have that stuff written down first or does it just flow like rivers of gilded shit from the wide gulf of your open mouth?

and did I actually see jonson make the claim that someone should keep their politics and their hip hop separate? did i really see that?
posted by xmutex at 9:40 AM on March 12, 2003

when confronted with substantive arguments against the war, retreat to making fun of anti-war celebrities.

No one's retreating. They just don't disagree with your worldview. Spin it however you want, but people have their own reasons for being For or Against a war--it's good we have the freedom to do that. We also have the freedom to poke fun at the foilables of our celebrities. Let's face it, most of them are not exactly known as being awfully sharp about world affairs. This probably results from living inside the vacuous Hollywood bubble, surrounded by cameras, but I digress.

(On preview....what jonmc said, only he said it ten times better, as is his custom...)
posted by dhoyt at 9:41 AM on March 12, 2003

We also have the freedom to poke fun at the foilables of our celebrities.

And the foilables of fellow MeFi users. heh.
posted by soyjoy at 9:51 AM on March 12, 2003

and did I actually see jonson make the claim that someone should keep their politics and their hip hop separate? did i really see that?

yes. yes you did. Serious issues call out for legitimate, well reasoned responses. If you already have the cross to bear of having written pop music for a living (thus calling into question your legitimacy by some), you might want to draw up a cogent, documented case for what it is you are opposing. Or, conversely, you could write a hip hop tune about it. I'm not saying protest & music have no place together, I'm saying this example of musical protest is staggeringly poor.
posted by jonson at 9:59 AM on March 12, 2003

My assessment of the track: some of the lyrics are dopey, but no more so than on many other Beastie tracks. And as someone pointed out, hip-hop lyrics usually sound better when delivered by a good MC than they look on the page. It's an oral, not a written, form.

The music and production is great. I'd listen to this song for the beats alone.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:01 AM on March 12, 2003

Despite outward appearances, this thread makes me unreasonably happy for three reasons:

1. Neil Young seems to have stopped sounding like Toby Keith.
2. kaibutsu's clear explanations of anarchy, communism, and socialism, which I am actually going to copy and save (with attributions of course, and provided kaibutsu doesn't mind) and use to respond to various arguments and accusations that fly around my workplace daily.
3. Two people mentioned Sage Francis, who is by far my favorite voice in hip hop these days.
posted by jennyb at 10:51 AM on March 12, 2003

i like the beastie boys. i'm anti-war.

this song is wack.
posted by lotsofno at 11:06 AM on March 12, 2003

grabbingsand said:
but the track's really bad, it makes me sad... not bad meaning good, but bad meaning bad.

That's some smooth flow in its own right!
posted by UlfMagnet at 11:18 AM on March 12, 2003

if you feel strongly anti war, and you're a hip hop artist, those two things can (and should) remain separate

I suppose a rap song against the war could feasibly be written that wouldn't weaken the very legitimate reasons we shouldn't go to war, and yes, I do own and enjoy PE's Nation of Millions

You own and enjoy a Public Enemy CD, but think that political views and hip hop should stay separate? That's really, really [unintentionally] funny.

Anyway, there's lots of great political hip hop out there. I can't believe that people mentioned Sage Francis, but no one's mentioned Mr. Lif or Akrobatik (aka the Perceptions). Mr. Lif released the Emergency Rations EP which deals with the aftermath of September 11th (and includes two pretty ballsy tracks - Home of the Brave and Get Wise '91 ), and just released I, Phantom, which is sort of, uh, a concept album about the fall of Western Civilization and nuclear holocaust, but it's really great.

You can download live videos and stream audio from this Mr. Lif fan site.
posted by SweetJesus at 11:22 AM on March 12, 2003

Believe it or not, you can be a liberal and still think that Mumia is a cop killer who got a fair trial.

See http://www.danielfaulkner.com/ for more information about the Mumia trial. It's as unbiased as any site that defends Mumia, although that's not saying much. However, all their points are reasonable and independently verifiable - you can check out the courtroom transcripts yourselves, they're a matter of public record.

Anyone who thinks Mumia is not a cop killer or did not get a fair trial probably did not do his or her research. I hate capital punishment but Amnesty International could have picked a far better example that didn't blow all their credibility away. The same thing goes for the Beastie Boys - it's hard to take them seriously when they don't have a problem buying into the supposed innocence of an obvious murderer.
posted by L. Ron McKenzie at 11:31 AM on March 12, 2003

Look, the Beasties -- who are nonviolent Buddhists, not a bad thing per se I'd say -- have supported many human rights campaigns: the most prominent among those is definitely the Free Tibet campaign, which looks morally bulletproof to me (Chinese invasion, nonviolent monks put in prison, women raped to ethnic cleanse the region, horrible repression etc).
One of these campaigns -- the Mumia thing -- is not without problems but if you think that even the guilty have certain rights (you know, Miranda was a rapist, not a choirboy) the Mumia people can actually make sense. I agree that the "Saint Mumia" contigent is ridiculous, but I don't think the Boys have said that (my idea? he's obviously guilty but the police/prosecutors/judge have very likely tried to spike the evidence or influence the witnesses to strenghten an already strong case)
posted by matteo at 12:07 PM on March 12, 2003

...despite elvissinatra's request that I get punched in the face...

I was just quoting the Beasties from their less non-violent days, you know. I don't really think anybody should punch you in the face. I was thinking more of you punching yourself after you realized what you had said. Shoulda had a V8, you know?

But really, I think there are plenty of examples of people making good, important, serious points in silly, childish, and goofy ways. Political cartoons. Bush or chimp. etoy.com vs. eToys.com. I don't know, but it seems totally plausible to be both serious and goofy at the same time. Right?
posted by elvissinatra at 12:10 PM on March 12, 2003

i like the beastie boys. i'm anti-war.

this song is fun. supah deep? no. musical genius? no. decent production and admirable sentiments? yes. i am all for pretension, as pretension means attempting to reach beyond "your station in life". i get the impression that some of the people in this thread think: how dare these mere hip hop musicians attempt to comment on the war?

i also can't believe there are people who will comment on whether or not they like a song without even LISTENING to it.

kudos to the beasties for reaching.
posted by jcruelty at 12:16 PM on March 12, 2003

Serious issues call out for legitimate, well reasoned responses.

Yes, yes they do. And yes, "legitimate, well reasoned responses" are unlikely to appear in hip-hop, or in any genre of music for that matter.

However, this would only be an argument against mixing politics and hip-hop if that mixing somehow prevented a legitimate, well-reasoned discussion from taking place in other forums.

you might want to draw up a cogent, documented case for what it is you are opposing. Or, conversely, you could write a hip hop tune about it.

Yes, because we all know that if the Beastie Boys had written a 153-page manifesto, rather than a song, their message would have reached so many more people.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:59 PM on March 12, 2003

Okay, thanks to those who linked this Sage Francis guy- never heard of him before, but that MakeShift Patriot is amazing! I'm checking this dude out, haven't been this psyched about a socially conscious hiphop artist since Michael Franti! I don't keep up on hiphop much, precisely because stuff like this doesn't get promotion over the, how did someone here put it, "bitches and bling bling". But this guy rocks.
posted by hincandenza at 1:09 PM on March 12, 2003

hincandenza (I almost called you Hal), check out Mr. Lif, linked by sweetjesus above, as well. Also socially conscious and very very groovy.
posted by jennyb at 1:20 PM on March 12, 2003

The lyrics for the song aren't bad at all. They follow the Beastie's traditional style of being postive, informed, and goofy. They released the song "Alive" as a single and put it on their Sounds of Science 2xCD greatest hits, and it follows suit as well. Some of the lyrics to that song are far from deep, some contain some nice positive messages. the sounds of science also contained "song for the man", an odd little piece with great lyrics that Ad Rock wrote after witnessing two men publicly rating the women that walked by on the subway on a 1-10 scale.

Plus, in addition to the Free Tibet and Mumia causes, the Beasties played a concert for peace shortly after 9/11 (with a bunch of other artists, including the Jon Spencer Blues Explosion). They've also been very pro-women. They, well, Ad Rock specifically, were the only artists to say anything at the MTV music awards following the riots at Woodstock '99 when several sexual assaults took place. They've also offered women only pit areas at their concerts so that females can get close to the stage and have a good time without being assaulted or smashed.

I don't get it. People knock artists for being to overtly pretentious with their politics and seriousness. People knock artists for making completely stupid and non-sensical songs. Someone tries to find a happy medium between the two and they still get knocked. Granted, not all of these may be the same people, but the saying holds true: you can't please all the people....ever.
posted by Ufez Jones at 1:23 PM on March 12, 2003

That's some smooth flow in its own right!

hey, thanks ulfmagnet.
posted by grabbingsand at 1:57 PM on March 12, 2003

jennyb: will do, Mr. Lif & Sage Francis, on my to-do list. BTW, calling me Hal wouldn't be too weird, since my name is obviously based on Hal Incandenza. It's the people that know my real name, yet continue to call me Hal, that bother me. :)
posted by hincandenza at 2:08 PM on March 12, 2003

They've also been very pro-women.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 4:25 PM on March 12, 2003

L. Ron McKenzie, The site you link to is interesting and makes a decent case, but, like every argument about Mumia, it doens't make its case beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the deciding criteria for guilt or innocence in our system. What really went down is difficult to determine. Mumia very well may be guilty, but the burdern of proof rests on the prosecution.
Add to that the fact that even if he were guilty, Mumia's original trial and hearings were travesties of justice simply because proper legal procedure wasn't followed - even the guilty in our country have the right to have a trial which follows proper procedure, and Mumia's did not. That is the essence of Amnesty's argument againt his conviction - I fully think he should be given a new trial that doesn't violate his civil rights - under no circumstances should he just go free without one - but as things stand, the state violated the hell out of his civil rights as an acccused person.
We must insist that even the most obviously guilty people in our society have their civil rights protected, because such measures exist to protect the innocent - I would not want to be an innocent man and go through a trial like Mumia's.
posted by eustacescrubb at 4:40 PM on March 12, 2003

i hear the two women they used to tour with locked in a cage have become buddhist nuns.
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:02 PM on March 12, 2003

so I took kaibatsu's link to Thoreau...and followed that up to its home page. is it just me, or does that picture of Thoreau look like Alfred E. Newman as Abe Lincoln?
posted by notsnot at 7:55 PM on March 12, 2003

#define __off_topic

sgt serenity, i saw your outburst on that thread about fed IT spending.

You made me spit choco milk on my monitor. DAmn, you must have some patience :) mefi is too slow for my 2 second attention spa- ooh, look something shiny
posted by shadow45 at 10:27 PM on March 12, 2003

hrm. you know, they say your flava is the second thing you lose when you get old.

(the first thing being, of course, your glasses.)
posted by mcsweetie at 10:37 PM on March 12, 2003

imph, sarge, yeah, boys have some skeleton in their closets from one of the most mysoginist, stupid, and pointless albums of all time. Released back in 1986. In 1986, I was in first grade. I probably told some jokes that made fun of race stereotypes or jokes at the expense of women. I probably made fun of handicapped people. I probably did a lot of stupid shit that I would never consider doing these days. Do you judge me based on the person that I've become or the person I was?
posted by Ufez Jones at 7:27 AM on March 13, 2003

one of the most mysoginist, stupid, and pointless albums of all time

Licensed to Ill is also one of the best albums of all time. "Rhymin' & Stealin'" is one of the best hip hop songs ever recorded with its Sabbath and Zeppelin samples. The only unlistenable song on it is "Girls" and you've got to admit, it was funny as heck when you 15. It may not be the most mature album of all time, but it's certainly not pointless. Ask anyone who was involved in hip hop in the 80s and everyone will say they loved Licensed to Ill in spite of themselves.
posted by elvissinatra at 11:17 AM on March 13, 2003

I am very much against the war, but the song sucks, a lot. The Beastie Boys today are irrelevant and talentless, but it's their right to make bad songs and continue to be irrelevant and talentless against the war.

FYI: "Licensed to Ill" was originally gonna be called "Don't Be A Faggot." Really.
posted by Slimemonster at 11:38 AM on March 13, 2003

one of the most mysoginist, stupid, and pointless albums of all time

Licensed to Ill is also one of the best albums of all time.

I agree with both of the above statements. Let me just point out, though, that the BB's heralded "fusion" of rock and rap with the heavy-metal samples (what many critics focused on as the reason the album was "important") was a simple retread of Run-DMC's "RockBox."

Those sucka MC's perpetratin' a fraud (fraud), indeed.
posted by soyjoy at 11:41 AM on March 13, 2003

Even back then, the Beasties would've been the first to admit their debt to Run-DMC. By the way, I just pulled out my copy of Licensed to Ill and was pleased to find it stuck shut with beer stains, ha ha. Perfect.
posted by elvissinatra at 6:44 PM on March 13, 2003

Fair enough. It looked like I was calling the BBs the "sucka MCs," when I was really referring to the critics.
posted by soyjoy at 6:55 AM on March 14, 2003

Interesting that this song has garnered this much discussion, but hey, this is MeFi. The only thing I thought when I first heard it was, "man, they've really jumped the shark, haven't they?"
posted by Hackworth at 9:13 AM on March 14, 2003

Other than the breakbeat in the last 20 seconds of the song, I wasn't impressed. The Beasties have dropped immeasurably in quality lately, and this one proves it. I'm not for the war either, but I felt the BBs were dull, pandering and not particularly clever in their rhymes here. Hopefully they'll have their act together for the next album.
posted by Down10 at 12:55 AM on March 16, 2003

insert scuds disguised as inflatable penis plural joke here.
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:07 AM on March 16, 2003