This Is Gulf War 2

March 25, 2003 3:39 PM

This Is Gulf War 2 The realities of war, in photos. Not fun viewing, for sure.
posted by Postroad (69 comments total)

Uh, thanks for that Postroad.
posted by Karl at 3:49 PM on March 25, 2003

rotten-wannabe.com
posted by psychomedia at 3:50 PM on March 25, 2003

War is violent. News at 11.
posted by Karl at 3:52 PM on March 25, 2003

ogrish-filter?
posted by zerofoks at 3:53 PM on March 25, 2003

Wow, I am enlightened, and here all this time I thought war was a day at the park.

Thanks ever so much!
posted by xmutex at 4:04 PM on March 25, 2003

these pics should be shown on cnn around the clock, for the duration of this war...
posted by amberglow at 4:06 PM on March 25, 2003

amberglow -- agreed -- it's not even as bad as those pictures....
posted by mildred-pitt at 4:23 PM on March 25, 2003

i second that amberglow.
posted by nyoki at 4:24 PM on March 25, 2003

these pics should be shown on cnn around the clock, for the duration of this war

I disagree... I'll have to get a like-minded friend or two to post too so I can cancel out both your opinions... :/
posted by ed\26h at 4:28 PM on March 25, 2003

ed\26h, I'm with you
posted by maceo at 4:36 PM on March 25, 2003

Many thanks for that, Postroad. In the end, everyone is a victim. In other news, according to Salon, some guy in Florida had his site taken down by his ISP for posting screen grabs of US POWs from Al-Jazeera. ISP claimed it was because of the graphic violence. Guess you might have to watch the Salon ad before reading the piece.
posted by carter at 4:36 PM on March 25, 2003

Post: Horrific photos of mangled children

Responses: Bullshit cynicism, bullshit cynicism, bullshit cynicism...
posted by mathis23 at 4:38 PM on March 25, 2003

these pics should be shown on cnn around the clock, for the duration of this war...

no. gloat is not your friend.
posted by psychomedia at 4:38 PM on March 25, 2003

not gloat--more like the unvarnished truth of what our bombs are doing, instead of the greenscreen flashes of light we're seeing.
posted by amberglow at 4:41 PM on March 25, 2003

these pics should be shown on cnn around the clock, for the duration of this war...

I agree, as long as they also rotate in photos of all the terrorist attacks due to Wahhabist Islam, and photos of the Kurds that Saddam attacked.

Fair and Balanced, right?
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 4:43 PM on March 25, 2003

It's the well know formula that the disfigurement of casualty is inversely proportional to the morality of the war isn't it?

If only these people had been gassed by Saddam... that way they'd have left a beautiful corpse.
posted by ed\26h at 4:44 PM on March 25, 2003

I don't know Postroad's motivation for this FPP, but his link provides a valuable reality check to the coverage Americans are seeing.

The majority of us would be outraged if the state killed an innocent man on death row, but some of the posts here sound like a collective "so what" to the deaths of many innocents. It's too easy to say "here all this time I thought war was a day at the park." If you are concerned about civilian deaths, why can't you look at the pictures and talk about it? I'm with Amberglow: these pictures should be on CNN at least as often as they are on Al Jazeera.
posted by letitrain at 4:45 PM on March 25, 2003

> some guy in Florida had his site taken down by his ISP for posting screen grabs

Some guy is yellowtimes.com. Not that a heavy traffic site is somehow more wronged by censorsip than a smaller site, but it looks like this ISP really just fucked with the wrong people and the word will get out.

Vortech owner Craig Smith said that his company's decision to suspend service for YellowTimes had "nothing to do with politics and nothing to do with how we feel about the war in Iraq." He said that the Florida-based company is a small family business that would "like to keep the emphasis on 'family.'

When did "family" and usually religion become the excuse to do any unethical thing and get away with it?

Amusingly enough, the two tow truck companies here on the northside of Chicago (you know the kind that charge 150 to tow and 100 a day storage) are called Family and God tow trucks.
posted by skallas at 4:45 PM on March 25, 2003

I believe people -- particularly the ones that equate bombing with fireworks displays -- should realize that war makes people die in ugly ways.

But I also prefer to leave the dead with their dignity intact.
posted by Foosnark at 4:46 PM on March 25, 2003

Wow, I am enlightened, and here all this time I thought war was a day at the park.

You understand it better than most people then. It seems many in the US think war is about saying the Pledge of Allegiance with a lump in your throat and tying yellow ribbons around things.

If these sorts of images were shown on television, the bar for "what's worth fighting for" would be raised far, far above "losing our patience with diplomacy".
posted by 4easypayments at 4:46 PM on March 25, 2003

So Steve, you mean that photos of unrelated attacks, as well as photos from wars 10 years ago would be relevant? How so? What point are you really trying to make? We are talking about news photos, not essays comparing various conflicts through the years by various actors.

Or did I completely miss a joke?
posted by cell divide at 4:47 PM on March 25, 2003

sure steve!

I completely believe that no act of violence should be unseen, no matter who's perpetrating it.
posted by amberglow at 4:48 PM on March 25, 2003

What gets my goat is that Vortech just won't come clean. Why can't they just say:

"Yes, we didn't like the content. Its our company. Piss off"

Instead we get this "family" backpeddling. I'm sure they had no problem spending yellowtimes.org's money this whole time and I can tell you that a lot of yellowtime's content isn't "family-centric" as usually defined by the desperate cultural/media war commados on the far-right.
posted by skallas at 4:50 PM on March 25, 2003

Steve, don't forget the images of folks dipped into acid, shot in the head for bringing bad news, dropped into plastic shredders feet first, gassed, poisened, tested upon, beaten, bludgeoned, raped, electrocuted, mangled, and tortured.

Then, we can show images of Iraqis expressing their opinion, debating in a real parliment, running successful multi-national businesses, feeding their families off of their own paychecks, playing soccer; streets free of pictures of a heroic Saddam, construction projects, technology firms, McDonald's, and most importantly, smiles.

Sort of a before and after.
posted by askheaves at 4:51 PM on March 25, 2003

i think there are a lot of people - many that i work with, specifically - that simply repeat over and over what the government and newsmedia have shaped into the "talking points" of this war. never mind that they've all repeated over and over and over that this should be easy.

what i hear a lot is "so i suppose you want an evil tyrant who's killed innocent people as your neighbor"

and i just want to turn that finger right around and point it back at them. now a simple URL can do it just as effectively.

i'm as sick of the Iraq situation as the next fed up poster - but this is a whole new perspective on bringing home WAR. and war that happened YESTERDAY. it makes it feel less like some reality tv show gone wrong that i've already grown weary of watching/hearing/seeing.
posted by nyoki at 4:51 PM on March 25, 2003

amberglow: I'm not saying we should look away. I'm saying we should not feed the beast within. Too many are too close as it is.
posted by psychomedia at 4:51 PM on March 25, 2003

Then, we can show images of Iraqis expressing their opinion, debating in a real parliment, running successful multi-national businesses, feeding their families off of their own paychecks, playing soccer; streets free of pictures of a heroic Saddam, construction projects, technology firms, McDonald's, and most importantly, smiles.

Yeah, but won't it be boring after all of the footage like that we've already seen from Afghanistan?

Oh. Right.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 4:55 PM on March 25, 2003

So I'm an idealist. Sue me.

And give them time. Those poppy revenues take time to kick in.
posted by askheaves at 4:56 PM on March 25, 2003

Noting that here, war coverage has gone down from three channels all the time, to one channel some of the time.

Thanks Postroad.
posted by squealy at 4:57 PM on March 25, 2003

Well what's your point cell_divide? That somehow showing a bunch of grizzly images such as these on CNN will make a difference in the future? Stop being so naive.... all of you.
posted by Witty at 5:02 PM on March 25, 2003

Such images should be made available to those who want to see it, but not forced down the throats of those who do not wish to see it.

There. Now everybody's happy. EOT.
posted by ZachsMind at 5:03 PM on March 25, 2003

I, for one, agree with amberglow. This pics need to be seen. If you're for or against the war, they should be seen.
The war is happening thousands of miles away, not in our back yard. Because of this, we're a bit desensitized to what's happening because all we see on CNN are big fireballs over a city we have never seen up close.

We all know that war takes a toll on everyone involved, but sometimes we need a stark reminder of the human element involved. It's far different to hear "One dead and thirteen wounded" being told by a well dressed, clean cut cardboard cutout of a "news" anchor than it is to SEE the one dead and thirteen wounded.

I agree that the dead deserve dignity, but it's the living that deserve the reminder of the pain that war causes.
posted by lasthrsman at 5:21 PM on March 25, 2003

Important to see these photos, also important to place in context. Don't forget two things as we watch this unfold; War is a visitation of hell on earth and all photojournalism is propaganda.
posted by pejamo at 5:31 PM on March 25, 2003

I agree that the pics should be shown. These pics are the reality of war and everyone no matter what your viewpoint may be, you should be exposed to the reality. From a practical standpoint, CNN would just give a "graphic content" disclaimer before airing them anyway. Thus, those who chose not to view the pics, could cover their faces with their hands and peak through their fingers.
posted by Juicylicious at 5:32 PM on March 25, 2003

How do the images make you feel?

a trembling removal
voyeuristic
empty
powerless
a collapsing breath
years of human debt
static then removed
nothing together
nothing at once

Regarding the Pain of Others by Susan Sontag.
posted by the fire you left me at 5:43 PM on March 25, 2003

...not in our back yard.

No, but the Pentagon attack was.

...you should be exposed to the reality.

Why? Again, is this somehow supposed to change me or change human nature? Guess what? It won't. So I'll decide for myself what "I need". I don't care if they show them or not, but I don NEED it.

You just WANT me to look at it in hopes that I will suddenly be against the war and rally against all future wars... or something equally silly.
posted by Witty at 5:44 PM on March 25, 2003

The site that hosts these ("rescuing knowledge") is also host to the forbidden bong museum. In my personal scheme of prejudices, that's enough to slap the "infoporn" sticker on it — it's a wankfest on a par with those infamous "Faces of Death" videos that used to still circulate — and forget about it. This information is readily available elsewhere, framed in a less lascivious, sensationalistic way. Stoners, yeesh. I mean, sure, make it legal for 'em to stare at their hands and go all like "whoa!" ... but that kind of juvenile paranoia doesn't help me understand what's going on here or figure out what to do about it.
posted by hairyeyeball at 5:45 PM on March 25, 2003

So what does it mean that these photos are being seen, by us, or anyone else with a bit of curiosity and a web connection? 90% of the photos on the Memory Hole come from the general AP/Reuters Pool, and have already been shown on Yahoo News and many other sites. Only the most graphic few images from Al Jazeera seem to be absent from US outlets. In a non-interconnected world, these sorts of images would never be seen by anyone, and here we are debating them days or hours after they were taken.

I've been a news-photo junkie during this whole thing - even set up a frameset page of my own for viewing War-involved photos from Yahoo News sorted by photographer and general subject (here if you don't mind the self-link). It's been interesting following some of these photographers visually over time.
posted by kokogiak at 5:49 PM on March 25, 2003

You could look at it this way, Iraqi civilains that were gassed by Saddam are just as dead as the one the US is droping bombs on. Saddam was just kind enough to leave a full courpse behind instead of body parts.
posted by whirlwind29 at 5:51 PM on March 25, 2003

The Associated Press
3/25/03 8:48 PM

U.S. troops killed, captured or missing, according to the U.S. military or relatives. Not all names are available.

KILLED

March 24:

Marine Cpl. Evan James, 20, La Harpe, Ill., drowned in canal

March 23:

Marine Sgt. Michael E. Bitz, 31, Ventura, Calif., combat

Marine Lance Cpl. Brian Rory Buesing, 20, Cedar Key, Fla., combat

Marine Lance Cpl. David K. Fribley, 26, Fort Myers, Fla., combat

Marine Cpl. Jose A. Garibay, 21, Costa Mesa, Calif., combat

Marine Cpl. Jorge A. Gonzalez, 20, Los Angeles, combat

Marine Staff Sgt. Phillip A. Jordan, 42, Brazoria, Texas, combat

Marine 2nd Lt. Frederick E. Pokorney Jr., 31, Tonopah, Nev., combat

Marine Cpl. Randal Kent Rosacker, 21, San Diego, combat

Marine Lance Cpl. Thomas J. Slocum, age unknown, Thornton, Colo., combat

Army Capt. Christopher Scott Seifert, 27, Easton, Pa., grenade attack

March 22

Army Reserve Spc. Brandon S. Tobler, 19, Portland, Ore., vehicle accident

Navy Lt. Thomas Mullen Adams, 27, La Mesa, Calif., helicopter collision

Marine Lance Cpl. Eric J. Orlowski, 26, Buffalo, N.Y., machine gun accident

March 21

Marine Maj. Jay Thomas Aubin, 36, Waterville, Maine, helicopter crash.

Marine Capt. Ryan Anthony Beaupre, 30, Bloomington, Ill., helicopter crash

Marine 2nd Lt. Therrel S. Childers, 30, Harrison County, Miss., combat

Marine Lance Cpl. Jose Gutierrez, 22, Los Angeles, combat

Marine Cpl. Brian Matthew Kennedy, 25, Houston, helicopter crash

Marine Staff Sgt. Kendall Damon Waters-Bey, 29, Baltimore, helicopter crash

Date not given:

Marine Sgt. Nicolas M. Hodson, 22, Smithville, Mo., vehicle accident

CAPTURED:

March 24

Crew of Army Apache attack helicopter:

Army Chief Warrant Officer 2 Ronald D. Young Jr., 26, Lithia Springs, Ga.

Army Chief Warrant Officer 2 David S. Williams, 30, Orlando, Fla.

March 23

507th Maintenance Company, Fort Bliss, Texas:

Army Spc. Edgar Hernandez, 21, Mission, Texas

Army Spc. Joseph Hudson, 23, Almagordo, N.M.

Army Spc. Shoshana Johnson, 30, Fort Bliss, Texas

Army Pfc. Patrick Miller, 23, Park City, Kan.

Army Sgt. James Riley, 31, Pennsauken; N.J.

MISSING:

March 24:

Marine Sgt. Brad Korthaus, 29, Davenport, Iowa, disappeared in canal

March 23

507th Maintenance Company, Fort Bliss, Texas, March 23:

Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch, 19, Palestine, W.Va.

Army Spc. James Kiehl, 22, Comfort, Texas

Army Pvt. Brandon Sloan, 19, Bedford Heights, Ohio

Army Pfc. Lori Piestewa, 22, Tuba City, Ariz.
posted by the fire you left me at 6:03 PM on March 25, 2003

These pics are the reality of war and everyone no matter what your viewpoint may be, you should be exposed to the reality.

Just curious... How do you these Al Jazeera photos are from the current war AND/OR were inflicted by American soldiers? Take that horrific picture of that child with his scalp split open and his brain scooped out... Yes, it's horrific, but how do we know this is the result of American warfare? No burn marks or blood runs on the scalp or face. Hard to tie that injury to a bomb or bullet. How did it happen?
posted by fried at 6:11 PM on March 25, 2003

Ok everybody. Let's face the consequences of evil. Taste some reality. Have a close look at death. Closer. Now what? Now. What do you do?

Thought so. Nothing.

If you want to see changes, you have to take action. If you need these pictures to get motivated, something is very, very wrong with you.

I find that sad.
posted by psychomedia at 6:12 PM on March 25, 2003

psychomedia - are you always this condescending?
posted by nyoki at 6:21 PM on March 25, 2003

Witty: No, but the Pentagon attack was

And the Twin Towers was in mine. We also all felt the pain of those attacks. Each of us in our own way. I'll also wager that because it was so close to home, you sat glued to the news to see what was going on just like the rest of us.

9/11 effected us more, not just because it was an unprovoked attack on civilians, but because it was in our backyard.

Many middle eastern nations live with this everyday. We've been removed from it for a long time.

I don't expect it to change you any more than it will change me in the long run. It just is what it is. A reminder of the cost of war to those that may not truly understand.

On Preview: whirlwind29 - the difference is, many of those deaths were caused by Bush's war, NOT Saddam.

fried - True, but in the end, does it matter? The civilians aren't the only deaths I'm upset about.
posted by lasthrsman at 6:26 PM on March 25, 2003

are you always this condescending?

Only on Tuesdays.
posted by psychomedia at 6:28 PM on March 25, 2003

displaying graphic civilian (or military) deaths in war has the same goal that pro-life supporters do when they show a picture of an aborted fetus: provoking an emotional response. is this wrong? i don't think so. it is reality.

[speaking as an american], we've become detached from this sort of thing precisely because we are sheltered from it (minus any glorified hollywood gore). one thing this war has taught me is that we better know damn sure what the hell we are sacrificing before we make these kinds of decisions and exactly what repercussions those decisions will have for those who don't have a voice.
posted by poopy at 6:47 PM on March 25, 2003

Fried, I thought you were a web designer, not a forensic pathologist.
posted by dack at 6:50 PM on March 25, 2003

The dead don't care...there is nothing, once you are dead, that can be done to you or for you or with you or about you that will do any good or any harm...any damage or decency we do accrues to the living.
— Thomas Lynch, The Undertaking

posted by kirkaracha at 6:51 PM on March 25, 2003

Foosnark, with all respect, I believe the dead are with God now and have their dignity intact. I wish I could say that about the living.
posted by pyramid termite at 6:57 PM on March 25, 2003

whirlwind29. nice one :)
posted by ed\26h at 7:05 PM on March 25, 2003

[speaking as an american], we've become detached from this sort of thing precisely because we are sheltered from it (minus any glorified hollywood gore).

No, YOU may be sheltered from it. But there are thousands of Americans who have indeed seen it first hand.

Would you rather be detached from it or, to use another popularized term, desensitized to it? You can look at all the footage and images you want... 'til you're blue in the face, and you STILL won't know "what it's like" or "what the reality of war" is really all about. The fact is, until you hit the front lines and FEEL it, SMELL it, and truely FEAR it, you will never know. So don't kid yourself... and welcome to the world. Not directed at you poopy.
posted by Witty at 7:16 PM on March 25, 2003

I clicked the link, with fear and trembling.

Oddly enough, as gruesome as the pictures of the children were, there was an unnerving dignity. I can't explain it.
posted by konolia at 7:24 PM on March 25, 2003

I had a debate with a Syrian relative who emailed around the photo of crushed & bloodied Rachel Corrie.

My complaints to her were these:

1) No warning label on the content. War is horror and the truth is sometimes ugly, true, but I still think it's fair to let people know what they're getting into with disturbing content. Postroad did that.

2) The bloody photo was ALL she sent. No article, no reaction, nothing. This link is pretty short on info. Just a series of shocking images. The photos are real, and that makes them valuable, but their power goes undirected without some context.
posted by scarabic at 7:54 PM on March 25, 2003

As I recall, the last time the American media made available images of the gore of war, the tides of public sentiment turned slowly but surely against the war. So maybe these few images from the memory hole will change no one's mind, but a steady flow of images made freely available almost certainly will. The exclusion of these images and others like them from the mainstream media betrays a strong bias, in my opinion.
posted by kaibutsu at 8:08 PM on March 25, 2003

I see these images, and I get mad at Saddam.

I guess we all take these images and attach them to who we perceive as the demons.
posted by askheaves at 8:31 PM on March 25, 2003

War Is a Force That Gives Us meaning

>>>"We become the embodiment of light and goodness. We become the defenders of civilization, of all that is decent. We are more noble than others. We are braver than others. We are kinder and more compassionate than others -- that the enemy at our gate is perfidious, dark, somewhat inhuman. We turn them into two-dimensional figures. I think that’s part of the process of linguistically dehumanizing them. And in wartime, we always turn the other into an object, and often, quite literally, in the form of a corpse. "

"Thanatos is ascendant. It will, unfortunately, take that grim harvest of dead, that ultimately those that are intoxicated with war must always swallow, for us to wake up again."
posted by troutfishing at 9:07 PM on March 25, 2003

The truth here is that Sadaam is a horrible despot, who obviously doesn't give a shit about his own people. The suggestion that the US, Britain and the other allies are somehow his eqivalent makes me sick.
posted by Durwood at 9:33 PM on March 25, 2003

I agree, as long as they also rotate in photos of all the terrorist attacks due to Wahhabist Islam, and photos of the Kurds that Saddam attacked.

~guffaw~

Congratulations, Steve_at_Linnwood. Nice job. You just made the point that the United States et al are exactly morally equivalent to those you condemn. Fair and balanced, right?

Bullets come out of the pointy end. Aim a little higher than your own feet.

The truth here is that Sadaam is a horrible despot, who obviously doesn't give a shit about his own people. The suggestion that the US, Britain and the other allies are somehow his eqivalent makes me sick.

The dead, in their silence, ever so eloquently make the point that the U.S. and Britain ARE his equivalent.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 10:00 PM on March 25, 2003

The suggestion that the US, Britain and the other allies are somehow his eqivalent makes me sick.

The thought that my country may have caused this girl's death makes me sick. Maybe I'm just failing to see the big picture. But anyone who is not sickened and saddened by this is a lot more like Saddam than they realize.
posted by homunculus at 10:18 PM on March 25, 2003

I'm shocked! Shocked, I tells ya.

Not that innocent people and children are being killed of course - I'm shocked that people are showing these pictures on the interweb.
Can't we just let the desert sand blow over their tiny, dead bodies? Can't we just let the vultures pick their young bones clean, and not go on about this any more?

Can't we just please treat the dead with respect, and pretend that smart bombs are so smart they know the difference between children and soldiers?

The world doesn't need to know, dammit!
posted by spazzm at 11:02 PM on March 25, 2003

Just to make one thing clear:
My previous comment was sarcastic.

War is a terrible, terrible thing, and those who close their eyes to this reality or make excuses for it are hypocrites of the worst kind.
posted by spazzm at 11:19 PM on March 25, 2003

I am always amazed at how whenever I don't agree with a "peace" activist they come to the conclusion it must be because I just haven't seen enough dead people.

I am well aware of the horrors of violence... and that is exactly why I am all for getting Saddam out of power... because he is in line as one of the most ruthless mass murderers in history and he needs to be stopped.

War is horrible. People die in very, very bad ways. This is unfortunate and it is, sadly, inevitable.

You can show picture after picture of dead kids and it will only strengthen my resolve that the US must stay strong and protect itself.
posted by soulhuntre at 1:38 AM on March 26, 2003

You can show picture after picture of dead kids and it will only strengthen my resolve that the US must stay strong and protect itself.

I thought we were doing it for the freedom-loving Iraqi people. Are we at war to protect ourselves or to free the downtrodden masses yearning to breathe free? I wish hawks would get their story straight.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:48 AM on March 26, 2003

Interesting related story on the difference in tv coverage here and around the world,

and an editorial on the CNN effect and stating the coverage is "...broadcast in such horrific detail..." already.
posted by amberglow at 5:38 AM on March 26, 2003

Civil_Disobedient: What a cute little attempt at creating an issue. It's both and you know it. Get over the fact that you couldn't stop the war and move forward.
posted by Witty at 10:57 AM on March 26, 2003

we're all worthless. so just stop.
posted by Satapher at 11:35 AM on March 26, 2003

The dead, in their silence, ever so eloquently make the point that the U.S. and Britain ARE his equivalent

Yeah I know you agree with that, but it's not true.
posted by ed\26h at 12:46 PM on March 26, 2003

Truth, subjetive or absolute?
posted by asok at 7:16 PM on March 26, 2003

War Could Last Months, Some Military Officers Say
posted by homunculus at 7:50 PM on March 26, 2003